2020-05-05

Sourcehttps://lockdownsceptics.org/2020/05/05/latest-news-21/
Published2020-05-05T15:05:47
Last updated2020-05-06T14:23:39
Scraped2020-12-20T20:18:03
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2750 Moomin, replying to Moomin, 10, #1 of 291 🔗

Thanks again Toby. I’ve just come across this website, it was linked in the change.org petition:

https://evidencenotfear.com

2754 ▶▶ Steve Austin, replying to Moomin, 6, #2 of 291 🔗

Excellent site. A one stop shop for all things lockdownsceptic. Thanks for posting.

2837 ▶▶ Andy, replying to Moomin, 6, #3 of 291 🔗

Amazing site share with everyone we must fight for our freedom against the move to a totalitarian state.

2751 giblets, replying to giblets, 33, #4 of 291 🔗

Seems the government and media have done such a good job of hyping up the ignorant members of the population into the dangers of the virus they are going to have a hard job getting anyone back to work.

2772 ▶▶ Tim, replying to giblets, 14, #5 of 291 🔗

Go to work. Protect the economy. Save lives. 🙂

2789 ▶▶▶ RDawg, replying to Tim, 14, #6 of 291 🔗

Go to work. Stop watching Netflix. This Isn’t a Holiday.

2783 ▶▶ Old fred, replying to giblets, 9, #7 of 291 🔗

Perhaps that it why there a few reports around today that the 80% furlough may be reduced to 60%!

2839 ▶▶▶ Andy, replying to Old fred, 4, #8 of 291 🔗

Stop furlough now you don’t work you don’t earn shock the public into action

2903 ▶▶▶▶ John, replying to Andy, 8, #9 of 291 🔗

Need to shock the bloody bosses into action first, a lot of them have closed the workplaces on deluded health and safety grounds due to the (almost non-existent) risk that the virus poses.

2831 ▶▶ GetaGrip, replying to giblets, 11, #10 of 291 🔗

Stay at home. Hide under duvet. Collect P45.

2752 Barney McGrew, replying to Barney McGrew, 9, #11 of 291 🔗

“David Greenfield, the Stranglers’ keyboard player, died yesterday – although he died of COVID-19”.

Keeping us on our toes, Toby? You should always check the details: he was in hospital for a long running heart condition.

2755 ▶▶ Steve Austin, replying to Barney McGrew, 3, #12 of 291 🔗

Something better change.

2756 ▶▶▶ Ethelred the Unready, replying to Steve Austin, 1, #13 of 291 🔗

I’m like a peasant in the big shitty

2812 ▶▶▶▶ Ethelred the Unready, replying to Ethelred the Unready, #14 of 291 🔗

Just giving my original vinyl copy of Rattus Norvegicus a loud spin, cheered me right up!

2760 ▶▶ Morris_Day, replying to Barney McGrew, 14, #15 of 291 🔗

This news did bring one thing to the front of my mind… is there a breakdown of new case suspected transmission? My assumption is there is a vey high percentage caught in hospitals or in care homes, rather than in the Big Bad World we are all too scared to go out into…

2882 ▶▶▶ chris c, replying to Morris_Day, 2, #16 of 291 🔗

I would suspect that was inevitable but I’d like to see numbers

2914 ▶▶▶ Nerina Villa, replying to Morris_Day, #17 of 291 🔗

Yes I’ve seen a few things about this.

2761 ▶▶ Gko, replying to Oaks79, 1, #19 of 291 🔗

“240 deaths have so far been reported”

2777 ▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Gko, 21, #20 of 291 🔗

The total number of deaths isn’t worked out until much later. I give you two articles from the UK 2018 flu season.

From February 2018:
“The flu death toll in the UK has now reached 231, latest statistics shows as officials claim the killer outbreak is now ‘stabilising’.”
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-5340211/Flu-death-toll-hits-231-UK-new-figures-show.html
(an article that also shows pictures of some of the people who have died, including children)

Then later that year:
“There were 50,100 excess deaths in England and Wales last winter, when there was a prolonged spell of extreme cold, making it the highest number since 1976, figures have shown.

The Office for National Statistics said flu and the ineffectiveness of the flu vaccine were key reasons for the rise of excess winter deaths in 2017-18.”
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/nov/30/excess-winter-deaths-in-england-and-wales-highest-since-1976

Notice the discrepancy between 231 recorded mid-season and the 50,100 deaths later attributed mainly to flu.

By the way, do you remember being told to stay in your house, and the economy grinding to a halt that year?

2885 ▶▶▶▶ chris c, replying to Barney McGrew, 1, #21 of 291 🔗

Next flu season you will

2762 Snake Oil Pussy, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, #22 of 291 🔗

Is there anything to stop British residents for downloading and using the Apple / Google app and just ignoring the UK government’s version?

2788 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, #23 of 291 🔗

Good question. Surely they would have to work together to be effective – one app informing the other.

2798 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, 3, #24 of 291 🔗

Since neither will get much support, why bother (even if you don’t care about privacy and government mission creep)?

2887 ▶▶▶ chris c, replying to IanE, #25 of 291 🔗

Mission creep from government creeps

2763 Paul Seale, replying to Paul Seale, 2, #26 of 291 🔗

A little late today Mr Young, has Caroline finally got you doing some house work or have you actually succumbed to the dreaded Covid?

I’ll add you the list for my 8pm clap Thursday if the former…

2779 ▶▶ Will Jones, replying to Paul Seale, #27 of 291 🔗

He’s already had it.

2790 ▶▶▶ Paul Seale, replying to Will Jones, #28 of 291 🔗

So he says!

2764 Farinances, replying to Farinances, 29, #29 of 291 🔗

I’ve just been chatting to one of my bezzies. Sadly I note he is a zealot. He threw out all the common platitudes whilst as usual showing no evidence of having seen any of the actual….Evidence to the contrary.

So I threw the evidence at him, rather relentlessly. Every time I landed a blow he simply kept saying “Who says?” Like I was just plucking this shit out of the air. *sigh*

When I said “Google says. Google it. The top seach results will tell you ‘who says'”
To which his response was “But nothing on the internet is reliable is it. I believe the medical experts”.
Because Google doesn’t have a (fairly infamous by now) algorithm that filters out all ‘unreliable’ sources from the top results. Because there isn’t scientific research being conducted right now, the results of which are being published almost constantly on the free web. Because there are no other medical experts in the world other than the ones advising HM Gvt. (The most notable of whom isn’t even a doctor and has been proven to be full of shit multiple times already).

Telling you what this ‘crisis’ is clearly showing me who has the power of independent thought. And more disappointingly, who hasn’t.

2799 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Farinances, 5, #30 of 291 🔗

Lots of that sort about – including my in-laws!

2836 ▶▶ Morris_Day, replying to Farinances, 7, #31 of 291 🔗

Critical thinking has long been a thing of the past, but I thought we had common sense as a nation. I was wrong.

2842 ▶▶ Andy, replying to Farinances, 3, #32 of 291 🔗

What you need to remember is people are basically stupid and sheep, your friend would have cheered the Nazis to power and handed over his Jewish friends then after the war said he wasn’t aware of what was going on. Celebrities are the gods to these morons so where are they standing up for freedom and liberty there were plenty of them marching and mouthing off over brexit but the move to digital slavery and they just do their stay at home TV shows and take another bag of 30 pieces of silver

2888 ▶▶ chris c, replying to Farinances, 6, #33 of 291 🔗

Seen this?

Coronavirus: Prof Neil Ferguson quits government role after ‘undermining’ lockdown

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52553229

you just couldn’t make it up

2896 ▶▶▶ APB, replying to chris c, 6, #34 of 291 🔗

Thank goodness! Maybe this is a way of parking him without too much loss of face?

2915 ▶▶ Nerina Villa, replying to Farinances, 9, #35 of 291 🔗

I’m finding it so hard that friends I usually respect have gone crackers, no critical thinking or research and those who don’t agree with lockdown are keeping quiet.

2975 ▶▶▶ ShropshireLass, replying to Nerina Villa, 8, #36 of 291 🔗

Agree, Speedy – finding the same thing. Equally alarming is the appalling codswallop on local Facebook groups of which I am a member. So much ‘end of the world is nigh’, ‘ring the police if you spot a neighbour in their garden talking to another neighbour over the fence’ and ‘the virus is deadly and is all around us in the environment and could kill us all if we go out’ that I have made myself very unpopular (and banned from one group whose admin is a lockdown zealot) by politely and calmly refuting the rubbish with quoted facts and opinions of professionals – giving their names and qualifications and quoting links to reputable sources. Stop the Planet – I want to get off!

2765 Mark, replying to Mark, 14, #37 of 291 🔗

Great stuff, again, thanks.

Re the Chivers program, this was my comment about it on Peter Hitchens’ blog after I listened to it the other day. Fairly typical stuff for both the BBC and Chivers, I think:

I found that program quite annoying, with repeated assertions that were not sufficiently challenged, that it is somehow “morally repugnant” to weigh lives against money. The reality is that it should be the job of policymakers precisely to weigh lives against costs, as we recognise in reality every time NICE makes a decision – but note that Chivers describes this as “cold hearted”, whereas a better description would be “grown up”. It’s literally childish to try to pretend “life is everything”, and if you have a society that encourages people not to grow out of that delusion you end up with the kind of social and political elite that panics in the face of even quite small mortality, as we are seeing over this covid disease right now.

The valid criticism of the costs of the lockdown was defused early on by a rather silly false equating of the disruption unavoidably created by the disease itself and the obviously hugely increased disruption (we know that, even if we don’t know exactly by how much) created by the lockdown response itself.

This was yet another BBC programme made by someone who fundamentally supports the lockdown and the essentially immature ethics behind it. As he explicitly said: “better to lock down when you don’t need to, than to not lock down when you do need to” – directly contradicted by many of the points established earlier in the program. In fact, of course, given the information available at the time of the decision to lock down in this country, it was perfectly clear that the downside risks of locking down were huge but unknown and broadly open ended – nobody has ever tried to coercively lock down an entire open society in this way, and it’s a basic criticism of the whole idea of locking down that it leaves you with no exit route because you have no herd immunity and you are in virtually the same position at the end as you were when you went in as far as the risk of epidemic spread is concerned. And serious economic damage can easily become non-linear, if there are systemic collapses at any point. Whereas we knew by the middle of March that the disease was one that has a very low death rate, mostly confined to those who are already close to death anyway, so the risks of the disease are inherently limited to at worst a few hundred thousand deaths, mostly of people already ill or very old.
Chivers’ conclusion was pretty much “we don’t know what would have happened either way, so it’s better we did more than that we did less”, which flat out contradicts the principle for good healthcare intervention he’d earlier quoted from Gordon Smith.

The program came across as having the superficial appearance of balance, but actually it was largely predicated on accepting exactly the misplaced and false assumptions that underlie the lockdown gamble, with the result that it seemed incoherent.

2782 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Mark, 7, #38 of 291 🔗

Send that to the BBC, complain online, you’re right I listened to it too and thought the same thing.

2802 ▶▶ GLT, replying to Mark, 11, #39 of 291 🔗

Thank you for this…I read the summary in ‘Unherd’ and felt temporarily quite depressed. I am sure many out there agree with his ‘logic’, the fallacy of which you point out very well. How do you reason with people for whom a flippant ‘better lock down when you don’t need to’ is enough to justify this complete and unprecedented assault on human rights and freedom? The readers of this website and comments such as yours are the only ‘green shoots’ so, thank you!

2766 wendyk, 10, #40 of 291 🔗

2 anecdotes on lockdown consequences: the very nice lady operating the till at our local supermarket told me today that her disabled son- who has his own flat with regular support from care assistants- is finding the lack of physical contact with his mother very difficult.
She phones every day, but finds this to be a poor substitute since he is unable to comprehend fully the reasons for the house arrest.

The young woman who runs our independent greengrocer told me that her 84 year old mother is desperate for the isolation to finish. Her mother enjoys regular visits to the family shop and is a sociable soul.

Now it seems that Scotland must face another 3 weeks of this. My little town faces an uncertain future.

2767 Mimi, replying to Mimi, 14, #41 of 291 🔗

Thank you again, Toby! I do so look forward to these updates!

Here’s the full published paper from France about the patient who had COVID in December: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924857920301643

“Two recent studies suggested that around 18 to 23% infected with SARS-COV-2 were asymptomatic16 and that around 55% of infected were caused by unidentified infected persons.17 Our results strongly support these two assumptions, suggesting that many asymptomatic patients were not diagnosed during January 2020 and contributed to the spread of this epidemic.

Furthermore, since these results change our understanding of the dynamic of the epidemic, it also means that several models used to predict the evolution and outcomes of the SARS-COV-2 propagation might be based on biased data and would need to be adjusted to the actual profile of the epidemic.”

Ya think?

2775 ▶▶ Pebbles, replying to Mimi, 12, #42 of 291 🔗

“Based on biased data”. Haha… what a laugh. But hurray, finally we have it in a main scientific paper, coz if I said this in a supermarket today that this virus has been going around London for most of the winter, I’d be stoned to death. Once this comes to light properly, it’ll be the biggest smack in the face for the lockdown zealots.

On a more practical note – so if I want to travel to Switzerland or Germany now… I MUST download the app and….? What then? Leave my phone on 24/7…? Report what…? My symptoms…? Someone else’s possible symptoms? Self-isolate because someone 500 meters down the road has reported as a potential Covid-19 patient? Hack in all my personal health data so Google and Apple can go on a major data mining adventure, which they will assure me they aren’t and it will all be deleted later? What a joke.
What if I download it, delete it for the visit, then download again when approaching border? Or will they actually arrest me now for not having my phone with me for 24/7…? Any insights?

2768 swedenborg, 4, #43 of 291 🔗

Some interesting links
https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/lockdown-stockholm-syndrome
An explanation that 80 % of UK population likes the lockdown and wants more of it
https://www.zerohedge.com/health/dubious-covid-models-tests-now-consequences
Rather detailed information about the covid-19 models and who is backing them
https://www.zerohedge.com/health/pseudo-science-behind-mysterious-assault-hydroxychloroquine
interesting piece about a drug Big Pharma has downplayed in Western countries, too cheap. But look at the striking low death rates in Turkey, India and other non European countries using them.

2769 APB, replying to APB, 15, #44 of 291 🔗

I try to give every side of the argument a fair hearing and to research alternative viewpoints but I am getting stuck on one issue. Does anyone have any evidence of a single example of where Prof Ferguson’s model HAS proved even remotely accurate – even ball-park, country mile etc. I cannot find any. There must be something somewhere, surely?

2785 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to APB, 4, #45 of 291 🔗

In short, no.
Maybe his undergrad thesis was passable

2793 ▶▶ Paul Seale, replying to APB, 6, #46 of 291 🔗

The one where he said if I can get one of my models to be accepted as proof this is how much power you will yield Mr Gates.

2813 ▶▶ Ethelred the Unready, replying to APB, 11, #47 of 291 🔗

What is remarkable is that a simple guess would be right at least some of the time? Ferguson appears to break even that rule

2875 ▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to APB, 6, #48 of 291 🔗

According to Twitter Ferguson has just resigned – for breaking Lockdown rules – ha!

2770 AntisepticSkeptic, replying to AntisepticSkeptic, 8, #49 of 291 🔗

It is remarkable how anybody possessing a developed frontal lobe could consider it surprising the virus was not in Europe before Christmas.

2801 ▶▶ IanE, replying to AntisepticSkeptic, 20, #50 of 291 🔗

It is even more surprising to me that anyone with the relevant bit of brain could regard the lockdown as even slightly sensible.

2995 ▶▶ ShropshireLass, replying to AntisepticSkeptic, 7, #51 of 291 🔗

I’m 99% sure I went down with it on 23rd December, after working closely with a large group of Chinese who had just flown into Britain – several of whom were evidently feeling poorly and quite a few had a repetitive cough. We were all in a warm, enclosed building with air conditioning for 3 days. 10 days later I suddenly developed a dry throat based cough which got worse. Developed a headache the next day (very rare for me) and within 24 hours a temperature. Cough by this time was persistent. Treated temperature and headache with paracetamol. Thought to myself – well this is a new virus – have never had anything like this before. Improved after 5 days but the cough lasted 2 weeks. When the symptoms of Covid-19 were broadcast mid January I did some detailed internet searches. Discovered 2 Chinese doctors had reported to authorities evidence of a new coronavirus on 1st December and 10th December respectively (first case in Wuhan, but other in a different province. Previous to this other doctors throughout China had been reporting unusually large numbers of viral pneumonia patients, some of whom had died, from “an unknown cause” throughout the autumn. Both doctors who spoke to journalists from the USA were arrested. So, bearing in mind the long incubation period and the period before some people were admitted to hospital it seemed logical to me that because people were travelling in and out of China throughout the autumn and winter they would have already spread the virus throughout many countries. So many people on FB have reported they had a strange flu type bug mid – to late December I’m betting that like the French have discovered Covid-19 had quietly been doing the rounds. There weren’t mass deaths so found the PM’s sudden lockdown announcement startling and illogical.

3640 ▶▶▶ Jonathan Castro, replying to ShropshireLass, #52 of 291 🔗

One of my brothers and his family were very ill at Christmas (in Cheltenham) and it was the first time the rest of us didn’t visit.

2771 Tim, replying to Tim, 34, #53 of 291 🔗

A couple of days ago I emailed a friend of mine … Flo … who lives with her family in Le Mans. I included a mini rant about lockdown and being treated like children. Here is part of her reply:

“I’m glad you expressed your opinion. We feel exactly the same over here.

It’s not so much a lockdown over here. Confinement is the term we use. We are allowed to go out for a list of reasons, and we have to check a box on a form each time we decide to go out. Being French, everybody cheats and goes out either various times, or for longer periods of time. I can actually ride my bike to JM’s through back streets without being noticed…

Like you we are fed up with the way we are governed, treated, lied to. We hear exactly the same arguments as you are. I’ve said that many times to Jean-Michel. Hearing French news/policians, then listening to the BBC and reading the Guardian etc. they say exactly the same things. It’s frightening.

Jean-michel says it’s because Johnson and Macron are both neoliberals and they are totally on the same tracks. Money makers working for money makers, stakeholders, shareholders. We are sick of it.

Many people will lose their jobs. Many small to medium sized companies will not survive. But our governments are still giving lots of money to help the big big companies. And these big companies still pay lots of money to their shareholders, when they could use some of the capital to secure jobs, and activity.

Our French government has blatantly lied about the amount of stocks of masks we had when it all started. Lied about the precautions that were supposedly not essential, only because there were not enough masks for the crowds. They let carers contaminate old people in care homes by having them work without proper equipment. They let doctors, nurses, nurse assitants, GP’s and so on catch the disease and die for lack of proper protection.

It is shameful.

They talk to us as if we were idiots. They repeat and repeat the same bullshit on TV and radio and papers. So much so that we have turned away from them and get our news from social networks. There are big numbers of private people, groups, independent journalists and plaforms working in the shadows and broadcasting on Youtube, Twitter, Facebook and more. Proper news gets spread that way really through sharing pages, articles, comments, videos. I encourage you to do that if you haven’t already, to find likeminded people. I read some of the stuff you have written on FB and I realized you couldn’t keep quiet any longer for being so fed up with them.

What is scary though is that there are still great numbers of people who believe in them…”

So there it is. We are not alone.

2796 ▶▶ Paul Seale, replying to Tim, 7, #54 of 291 🔗

In some sense this gives me great hope. Perhaps we could turn Britain from brexit Island into liberty Island, I’ll take a free living European over a bedwetting remainer.

2918 ▶▶ Nerina Villa, replying to Tim, 4, #55 of 291 🔗

We are not alone. But it can feel like it. Keep sharing.

2773 Mark, 14, #56 of 291 🔗

The British response to disease – then (1918) and now.

I believe excessive fear has been one of the main roots of our problems with the current covid virus, and in particular the active encouragement of grossly disproportionate fear of this disease, more or less intentionally, by the deeds and words of our government and medical authorities and of our opinion forming media. In many cases, it’s likely they were motivated to do so by an idea that they were doing something responsible, because fear would encourage support for and cooperation with the measures those authorities believed necessary (and that in itself doubtless came back to their own inordinate fear, or in some cases fear of being blamed).

It’s interesting then to consider the following description, from Influenza: The Quest to Cure the Deadliest Disease in History, by Jeremy Brown, of a time when Britain faced a disease far, far more deadly than this one, and with none of the tools and knowledge available to fight it that we have today. I don’t know how accurate the account is, or how much this approach managed in practice to defuse the fear effects of what was, objectively, a disease actually worthy of fear, unlike the current covid illness, but I think it raises an interesting contrast with the modern approach:

**************************************************************************
In Britain, it was [in 1918] very much a “keep calm and carry on” approach. I was born and grew up in London, and even though I have now lived outside of Britain for most of my life, I recognise this reaction. Composure in the face of adversity and keeping a stiff upper lip were hallmarks of my childhood. I had seen such composure on the face of my grandmother as she recalled being evacuated from London during the Blitz, and I recognized it in the reaction to the Spanish Flu a generation before. “Keep calm and carry on” were not just instructions for public behaviour. They were part of the cultural DNA of the British themselves.

At first the newspapers barely mentioned the epidemic; when they did it was buried on the inside pages. The British government and a sympathetic press tacitly agreed to limit any discussion of the flu, lest it demoralize a public already weary of a world war entering its fourth year. The tension between reporting the facts and maintaining morale was embodied in a letter written by a Dr. J. McOscar that was tucked away in the back of the British Medical Journal.

“Are we not now going through enough dark days, with every man, woman or child mourning over some relation?” he wrote. “Would it not be better if a little more prudence were shown in publishing such reports instead of banking up as many dark clouds as possible to upset our breakfasts? Some editors and correspondents seem to be badly needing a holiday, and the sooner they take it the better for the public moral [sic].”

Ironically, there was a detailed five-page report on influenza on the front page of the same issue in which this letter appeared. It underscored just how devastating the pandemic was. There had been a catastrophic outbreak among British and French troops, it noted, that had swept through entire brigades and left them unable to function.

Britain’s chief medical officer also seemed reluctant to upset anyone’s breakfast. His advice was limited: wear small face masks, eat well, and drink a half bottle of light wine. The Royal College of Physicians took a similar approach and announced that the virus was no more deadly than usual. The British seemed relatively unmoved throughout the saga. In December 1918, as the pandemic was ending, the Times of London commented that “never since the Black Death has such a plague swept over the face of the world; never, perhaps, has a plague been more stoically accepted.”

Earlier that year, the medical correspondent for the Times, with what must have been a huge exaggeration, described a people who were “cheerfully anticipating” the arrival of the epidemic. The historian Mark Honigsbaum believes that this British stoicism was deliberately encouraged by the government, which had already worked to cultivate a disdain of the German military enemy. The same disdain was then directed at the influenza outbreak.

But whatever the attitude of the British towards the pandemic, influenza’s toll was enormous. By the time it had subsided, more than a quarter of their population had been infected. Over 225,000 died.

**************************************************************************

Our government and members of the political and media establishments have always sought to manage popular opinion and attitudes “for the greater good”. This basic paternalism can be annoying, but at least when it is directed by grownups with a real understanding of the best interests of a nation, it can be useful. The tragedy of our modern society is that those paternalists have far more persuasive power at their disposal, but are themselves basically infantile in their grasp of the world, dominated by sentimentality and fear. This can be seen in their failure to disdain absurd assertions that “saving lives must be the only consideration”, and their refusal to insist on hard decisions being taken unsentimentally by the leaders responsible for the guidance of the nation. And it can be seen in their cowardly undue fear of a disease that involves objectively very small risks. The generation that led us to war in Europe can be criticised for sure, but they would not have made the disastrous error made by this generation, of turning a minor medical issue into a medical emergency combined with an economic collapse and a social disaster.

The impact of the 1918-19 flu pandemic was very significant. both economically and in long term health effects, but note that in 1918-19 Britain did not suffer notably worse than many of the other countries affected by this disease, one that was far, far more dangerous than covid19. A study looking at excess deaths by country during the 1918-19 pandemic found the following:

“Excess mortality was found to be strongly country dependent. The highest cumulative excess/predicted mortality ratio was observed in Italy (+172%) during the pandemic period (peaked in October 1918), following by Bulgaria and Portugal (+102% each), Spain (+87%), the Netherlands (+84%), Sweden (+74%), Germany (+73%), Switzerland (+69%), France (+66%), Norway (+65%), Denmark (+58%), Scotland (+57%) and England and Wales (+55%), with the lowest ratio being seen in Finland (+33%)(Table 1). The highest excess‐mortality rate (per 10 000 inhabitants) cumulated throughout the entire excess‐mortality period was observed in Portugal (233/10 000 inhabitants), followed by Italy, Spain, Bulgaria, Switzerland, Finland, France, Germany, Sweden, Netherlands, Norway, England and Wales, Scotland and Denmark (Figure 2).”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4634693/

2774 Mark H, replying to Mark H, 12, #57 of 291 🔗

Sturgeon said today she’s basing her opinion that it’s too early to ease the lockdown in Scotland due to “26,000 people testing positive”. Yet on her own government’s CV19 webpage, it lists the positive cases at 12,437.

Asides from her comment about the 26,000 positive cases being a lie, what does she seek to gain by blatantly misleading the Scottish public?

2781 ▶▶ Biker, replying to Mark H, 15, #58 of 291 🔗

i’m Scottish and i’m ashamed to say that the type of person who supports Sturgeon just doesn’t have the intellectual capacity to understand much more than shouting freedom and drinking excessively without any style.

2786 ▶▶▶ wendyk, replying to Biker, 5, #59 of 291 🔗

Agreed! She’ll do whatever it takes to whip up support for another neverendum.

2791 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Mark H, 3, #60 of 291 🔗

Wasn’t she already caught lying when she made the fake news assertion that England was being prioritised over Scotland for PPE? In one of her press conferences. Luckily it was roundly rebuffed by Handjob in the Westminster press conference minutes after 😂
Also I’m pretty sure she was peddling that nonsense about an NHS trust manager begging Burberry for PPE – but the entire MSM was also on that train

2778 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, #61 of 291 🔗

Another rope delivered for the Italian suicide by Fergusson

London researchers mathematically modelled how virus would spread and kill in Italy in three scenarios
If population went back to just 20 per cent of their normal routines, there could be 5,000 additional fatalities
If there was 40 per cent increase in mobility, there could be more than 23,000 extra deaths in just eight weeks
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/mrc-gida/2020-05-04-COVID19-Report-20.pdf

2792 ▶▶ RDawg, replying to swedenborg, 29, #62 of 291 🔗

The only people who need to be locked down are Neil Ferguson and his team at Imperial College. They are basically de facto mass murderers. There I said it.

2840 ▶▶▶ Jaguarpig, replying to RDawg, 4, #63 of 291 🔗

Just read he’s been sacked for breaking lock down you really couldn’t make it up

2877 ▶▶▶ Jim, replying to RDawg, 11, #64 of 291 🔗

Turns out he can’t even keep to his own lockdown plan, he’s been caught visiting a partner. If he comes up with the lockdown and doesn’t think it worth sticking to then that’s a pretty good indication of the validity of such a policy. Time to set ourselves free.

2780 Peter Thompson, replying to Peter Thompson, 18, #65 of 291 🔗

Tuesdays are my visit to do the weekly shopping. Anything more than one visit a week is too difficult to contemplate. It is now a Hampton court maze to get in with diversions for those queing through the clothes department to tempt you. I did see a lady grabbing her silk scarf to hold around her mouth but curiously not her nose . It reminded me of the madness yesterday whilst running along a wide country lane a couple at least 20 feet away from me turned to face the hedge. People have gone insane with fear and the government have been gaslighting them.

Anyway as someone on the ” front line ” I thought i would enlighten you as to why non covid deaths among the elderly have sky rocketed. Many elderly especially in residential homes are revolving door patients to the local Hospital . The staff of residential homes often from overseas are keen to get your 85 year old with a nasty water infection not responding to antibiotics or your 90 year old who has signs of a stroke etc into hospital where they emerge a week or two later after IV antibiotics or thrmonbolysys for their stroke .

These cases are now staying in ” Bide a Wee ” residential home and dying. There are no awkward relatives saying “something needs to be done doctor for aunty Betty “

2784 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Peter Thompson, 6, #66 of 291 🔗

Yep, and hospitals are refusing to take them as well, it’s a travesty what we are doing to our old.

2811 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to BecJT, 3, #67 of 291 🔗

Malcolm Kendrick write a good piece a couple of weeks ago on the disgraceful treatment of the elderly – the very people we actually should be specially protecting from this virus:

https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2020/04/21/the-anti-lockdown-strategy/

2787 RDawg, replying to RDawg, 22, #68 of 291 🔗

Hi All,

Both InProportion2 and EvidenceNotFear have agreed to host my MP Letter Template on their websites. You can access them here:

http://inproportion2.talkigy.com/pages/letter_to_mp.html
https://evidencenotfear.com/fearless/#action

You can find details of your local MP here: https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/

In addition to your local MP, I strongly suggest writing directly to the following highly influential MPs who can potentially bring this lockdown to a close:

– Sir Graham Brody (Chair of the 1922 Committee)
– Sir Charles Walker (Joint Vice-Chair)
– Steve Baker
– Robert Courts

Also the below members of the 1922 Committee:

Dame Cheryl Gillan (Joint Vice-Chair)
Bob Blackman (Executive Secretary)
Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Treasurer)
Kemi Badenoch
Sir Bernard Jenkin
John Lamont
Pauline Latham
Jeremy Lefroy
Sheryll Murray
Mark Pawsey
Alec Shelbrooke
John Stevenson
Bill Wiggin
William Wragg

It is only through collective action, lobbying and continued pressure, we can encourage the Government to come to their senses. You can also contact them via their relevant social media platforms (e.g. Twitter).

This is currently our best chance at getting our elected representatives to sit up and take notice.

Good luck!
RDawg.

2794 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to RDawg, 7, #69 of 291 🔗

I’m currently sending my MP (a rather weird looking Tory bloke) the same email every day at 9am. Maybe I should try writing too.

2795 ▶▶▶ RDawg, replying to Farinances, 4, #70 of 291 🔗

Good stuff! Keep up the pressure.

2803 ▶▶ IanE, replying to RDawg, 5, #71 of 291 🔗

Yes – if only we had MPs who would listen!

2805 ▶▶ Oaks79, replying to RDawg, 3, #72 of 291 🔗

Sent mine just now. Wish I had done it a couple days ago now though as my MP was asking questions at the select committee this morning

3001 ▶▶ ShropshireLass, replying to RDawg, #73 of 291 🔗

Thanks RDawg – will get on the case.

2797 swedenborg, 10, #74 of 291 🔗

One of the strangest things I have heard of is the existence of something called the Military World Games. I found it even more flabbergasting that the 2019 Military World Games were held in Wuhan in October 2019. It was reported earlier that Chinese counterintelligence had claimed that the USA was in fact behind the COVID-19 outbreak. The US military team performed very badly in the Games as they were mostly ill with a flu-like illness which they had allegedly contracted at the Fort Detrick biolab in Maryland. That was vehemently denied by the US authorities, leading predictably to a spat between the two countries.
But now with multiple reports of COVID-19 cases occurring in Europe already in December, those allegations become even more interesting:
https://www.thelocal.se/20200505/the-coronavirus-may-have-arrived-in-sweden-in-november
The Swedish State epidemiologist reported that there were probably COVID-19 cases in Sweden already in November, but he had no evidence in the form of PCR or antibody tests. He could not envisage launching a scientific study under the pressing conditions of the pandemic. A bit offhand, I must say, but he obviously had some background information. https://nsd.se/nyheter/lulea/regementslakaren-atta-norrbottningar-har-provtagits-nm5340524.aspx
An army doctor in Luleå, Sweden, reported in mid-April that she had seen several participants in the Military World Games presenting with a flu-like illness in October and November 2019.
These were all extremely fit young people. Some of them had fallen ill already in Wuhan, while the others fell ill upon returning to Sweden. They all had typical flu-like symptoms (rather severe), but all eventually recovered. Interestingly, family members also became infected. I think that they had PCR tests swabs in April, which were probably negative (this would not be surprising, since it was six months after they were infected).
https://nsd.se/nyheter/lulea/anders-nystedt-nara-men-ingen-cigarr-nm5341281.aspx
Five of them were tested by an antibody test for COVID-19 (developed in Sweden) and only one of them was positive. The local public health doctor said that a firm conclusion that this was from Wuhan could not be drawn. He could have had the infection much closer in time getting it locally and you would expect the other four to have antibodies . The caveat is that the antibody test might not be totally reliable and in Gothenburg, where it was tested in PCR swab positive cases of COVID- 19, still only 90 % of the patients developed antibodies after a confirmed infection.
Interesting development.

2800 bturner20, 1, #75 of 291 🔗

Have I missed it, or has no one suggested “Down With The Sickness” as the title track? I’d say Lounge Against the Machine’s cover, which I believe makes it into Dawn of the Dead in 2004, would be the most apropos.
Benjamin Turner MD, FRCSC

2804 Andy, 12, #76 of 291 🔗

Lockdown needs to start being lifted this weekend there is no justification for it the forcing people to use a phone app to track where they have been and who with is massive over kill and a breach of civil liberties. As for all tuc members that refuse to work stop paying them let us see if they are still happy to protest when their houses are repossessed and no food. This is the end of a free society we are all now prisoners of the state and why ?

2806 BecJT, replying to BecJT, 12, #77 of 291 🔗

Good grief, just done daily YouGov chat, and over 80% want lockdown to go on for more than six weeks! Thanks to the person who shared this George Carlin clip (don’t listen if you are offended by swearing) as this now sums up my views on this entire situation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSbT7JVNEU4&app=desktop

2810 ▶▶ Mark, replying to BecJT, 2, #78 of 291 🔗

Hilarious, thanks!

2908 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to BecJT, 5, #79 of 291 🔗

As soon as lockdown is lifted and they rediscover liberty, they’ll go back to berating welfare claimants daily despite the fact that they’ve just had a few months basically doing the same themselves

2807 John Ballard, 13, #80 of 291 🔗

The worrying thing is that we have arguably the worst bunch of MPs in our lifetimes, who were useless, completely incompetent and unable to agree on anything for three years when delaying Brexit and a media who can generally only write the most basic articles to panic the public as easier than thinking outside of the box or asking any questions.
Put that together and there’s little chance of any sensible and timely decisions to end this nightmare.

2808 AN other lockdown sceptic, 2, #81 of 291 🔗

Coronavirus UK lockdown rebellion: Boris Johnson warned by Tories, “Lockdown has collapsed demand!”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xw_bWvDHRJk

Boris Johnson criticised for spelling out lockdown exit strategy via TV speech, Commons First!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI8Ct2EBYq0

2809 Winston Smith, replying to Winston Smith, 14, #82 of 291 🔗

Here a thought, it is estimated that there 300,000 yearly deaths due to obesity.

Is it ethical to force overweight or obese people to follow strict dietary restrictions to save lives and protect the NHS?

2814 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Winston Smith, 3, #83 of 291 🔗

And smoking, and drinking (that’d go down well).

2816 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Thomas Pelham, 16, #85 of 291 🔗

Damn! The man who should have been dismissed long ago for being at best a menace to good governance instead ends up resigning over a stupid trivial breach of a stupid trivial regulation imposed thanks to his own misguidance.

Well, still a kind of poetic justice I suppose.

2835 ▶▶▶ Gracie Knoll, replying to Mark, 26, #86 of 291 🔗

What a headline for the tabloids:

LOCKDOWN, BUT HE COULDN’T KEEP HIS COCKDOWN!

Reckon this is a cover story. Most of the sheeple haven’t heard of Ferguson; that may change as this pantomime plays out, and then a lot of awkward questions may come his way and throw up the dodgy Imperial College / Gates Foundation connection. Getting rid of him now might reduce this publicity.

I imagine a couple of grey-suited types may have turned up on his doorstep and said “Now, Dr. Ferguson, you’re going to get caught having rumpy-pumpy with your lover during lockdown – capice? And then you’ll resign, pack your bags and – as soon as this lockdown you caused is over – you’re going to bugger off to Outer Mongolia where you will be out of reach of the questioning British public forever. Sign here.”

Sorry, I’m a natural-born cynic!

2841 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Gracie Knoll, 1, #87 of 291 🔗

I hope the Sun editor sees your suggestion… 🙂

I don’t know the details, but I suspect he will still have his Imperial position. It’s probably just the government advisory position he’s had to resign from.

2886 ▶▶▶▶ Scots lass, replying to Gracie Knoll, 2, #88 of 291 🔗

Thanks for a much needed good laugh 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂

2818 ▶▶ Oaks79, replying to Thomas Pelham, 2, #89 of 291 🔗

Wow

2823 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Thomas Pelham, 10, #90 of 291 🔗

What a dickhead

2843 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Thomas Pelham, 9, #91 of 291 🔗

Simon Dolan running a poll on twitter, ‘Should we sue Neil Ferguson?’ 95% say yes. I have hope, the man is a rampant hypocrite. Also see here https://twitter.com/simondolan/status/1257629942646521857/photo/1

2866 ▶▶ Mimi, replying to Thomas Pelham, 3, #92 of 291 🔗

NFW!!!! Ugh, couldn’t he have done this two months ago! Is he running scared now? It must be disconcerting to see the anger building against him.

2880 ▶▶ Jim, replying to Thomas Pelham, 11, #93 of 291 🔗

Let us hope that this revelation has been made public to discredit him. If we are really lucky then there might be rational forces somewhere in govrnment who want to make one of the best known proponents of lockdown look incompetent, as a step towards encouraging public distrust of lockdown and being able to end this disasterous policy once the public have been brought round to seeing lockdown as a bad thing. If we aren’t lucky then we’d better get ready to end the lockdown for ourselves.

2894 ▶▶ Tarquin Von Starheim, replying to Thomas Pelham, 5, #94 of 291 🔗

His Covid must have been fairly mild then if he was up to a good shag with a blond 15 years his junior the moment his isolation ended the dirty bugger.

2817 BecJT, replying to BecJT, 19, #95 of 291 🔗

I’m two generous G&Ts in, so if this is a terrible idea, then tell me, but why don’t we just refuse to cooperate? If enough people did it, what they gonna do, water cannon us all? Particularly if we did really normal, sensible, not generally law breaking things like go to the bottle bank, or go to work, or have a barbecue, or a game of cricket and some scones and jam or something? I am starting to think the only way out is through, our version of a student sit in, we just ignore them?

2822 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to BecJT, 10, #96 of 291 🔗

I think you’re right. I’m doing it in my own way but as I’m actually allowed out it’s not making much difference. I think we need another sunny weekend to break everyone out of their chains and get them in the parks.

2846 ▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Farinances, 10, #97 of 291 🔗

Just suggested to my mum and dad that we have a sunday lunch, get my brother and his kids over, they’ve all been in, we’ve all been in, we can sit outside, fire up the barbie, where’s the harm? Our neighbours might disapprove but they wouldn’t snitch. I did a little drive round the other day, paper shop, Aldi, co-op and the hardware shop, nobody told me my purchases weren’t essential, I think I’m just going to suit myself.

2881 ▶▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to BecJT, 7, #98 of 291 🔗

Two things. I live on the south coast and I go out every day in the forlorn hope that I might see a bit of disobedience, someone walking on the beach. Not a chance, though a woman was sitting by a windbreaker as the tide went out today. It was bloody cold too with an easterly wind. I also live at the foot of the South Downs and on sunny days have focussed my binoculars up there hoping to see at least a dozen walkers traipsing around in defiance. I always return home disappointed that anarchy seems to have hibernated. I’m half hoping someone will offer to do some NVDA with me but hardly see anyone. Secondly, isn’t ‘essential items’ a myth put out by the police? I’m sure some government minister said in some briefing that if the shop is selling it you can buy it. Even ghastly Priti Patel doesn’t want police snooping in shoppers bags.

2889 ▶▶▶▶▶ Biker, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 15, #99 of 291 🔗

In my area the wee cafe opened up on Monday and is still going. I’m in Scotland and i’ve got to say most people are not behind this lockdown. We’re not the richest place in the world and everyone needs to get out working. Sure there are those corona cows mooing away but the roads are busy again and everyone is visiting their friends. All my neighbours have people round like normal. I have heard that the police in England have been terrible but up here you never see them

2904 ▶▶▶▶▶ Harry, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 3, #100 of 291 🔗

Saw more people on a footpath just outside a town today than have ever seen on a week of walking it before. So some people are getting their sanity back, shame my boss won’t get that sanity back too so I can get back to the job I enjoy.

Priti Patel on the other hand, definitely wants cops going through shopping bags, no-one else does and many frontline cops themselevs wouldn’t want to but that smirking beacon of evil definitely does.

2919 ▶▶▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 7, #101 of 291 🔗

People don’t want to drone cammed on somewhere like a beach, that’s a hotspot for ‘name and shame’ hit piece headlines. Around here on the edge of Berkshire there are loads of people out walking, on their bikes etc. Loads of cyclists! I never paid any attention to any fucking rule, been out every day on the bike for a few miles, to the shops when I feel like it. It’s going on I assure you

2983 ▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 2, #102 of 291 🔗

Loads of people on Seaford prom, Nigel. My wife even made me walk down to the sea too.

3020 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to JohnB, #103 of 291 🔗

Well I’m glad to hear it John B. Not so much in Eastbourne

3006 ▶▶▶▶▶ DressageRider, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 3, #104 of 291 🔗

I am in Eastbourne area and about two weeks ago I went to the beach where there were in fact a few people sunning themselves in more out of the way spots. Good for them! It looked idyllic. Lots of tanned seniors sitting on benches as well. Double good for them. Also there are loads of peeps walking on the Downs here, some of the less well known parking places are available. Traffic is getting more back to normal as well. (but don’t all rush over at once, or the authorities might notice).

3021 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to DressageRider, #105 of 291 🔗

I live in the same place DressageRider, up in The Meads. I’ve not seen anyone on the beach except an occasional lone dog walker and a couple of kids (at separate times). Maybe I’m going out at the wrong time of day

2916 ▶▶ ianp, replying to BecJT, 11, #106 of 291 🔗

Just won’t work until the masses are de-brainwashed. This is what has upset me the most in all this, the general fucking public. I mean ffs, remember all those riots we had by about a decade ago for God knows what? So we probably have a bunch of council estate kids, stuck in their high rise for weeks on end, and none of them have wanted to get out on the street to smash stuff up…? It’s incredible. Right now I would support any protest of any kind, better the devil you know….

3007 ▶▶ ShropshireLass, replying to BecJT, #107 of 291 🔗

Made an attempt at being a minor, low key rebel yesterday by going out to buy a take-away scone and jam, after police prioritised intention to act on a possible minor lockdown over a drug deal. See my post of this morning at top of page!

2819 Bob, replying to Bob, 5, #108 of 291 🔗

When are UK Gov going to allow critical petitions onto their website, the lift the lockdown one has been under consideration for weeks!

2820 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Bob, 3, #109 of 291 🔗

They are really tricky to get the wording right, I might have missed the preamble to all this, but might be worth revising the wording? And trying again? I only know this as I was involved in one a while ago, and took several attempts to get it approved.

2825 ▶▶ Bob, replying to Adele Bull, #111 of 291 🔗

Link doesn’t work?

2853 ▶▶▶ Adele Bull, replying to Bob, 1, #112 of 291 🔗

Oh, weird. It’s about Neil Ferguson resigning!

2824 RDawg, replying to RDawg, 25, #113 of 291 🔗

Finally some good news!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/05/exclusive-government-scientist-neil-ferguson-resigns-breaking/

Dr Death no longer works on the SAGE panel. Hallelujah!

2826 ▶▶ Pebbles, replying to RDawg, 16, #114 of 291 🔗

OMG! Best news of the day. What a spineless coward…here we are, socially distancing from grandparents etc. and there he is sneaking around with still married blondie. You couldn’t make this up. I bet he has a safe seat at Gates Inc waiting for him too.

2830 ▶▶▶ RDawg, replying to Pebbles, 27, #115 of 291 🔗

He is a disgrace to humanity. His ridiculously inaccurate “models” have caused relentless and unnecessary suffering, multiple suicides, ruined our economy and forced millions into unemployment…all so he could ignore his own advice.

The man should be in prison for corruption and manslaughter. I’m even tempted to go one further and suggest genocide, but Toby will probably ban me from this site.

Anyway hopefully no more Ferguson = no more lockdown!

2847 ▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to RDawg, 6, #116 of 291 🔗

I think and hope it means that the public (and the tabloids if they have half a brain and want to save their sales) will just turn against and flout lockdown.

2865 ▶▶▶ Stephen McMurray, replying to Pebbles, 13, #117 of 291 🔗

Ferguson should definitely be prosecuted. Either he really believes his ludicrous model, in which case he has deliberately endangered lives by breaking the lockdown or, he knows it is a load of nonsense in which he has deliberately endangered lives by ordering a lockdown. Either way he needs to be in prison.

I wouldn’t get too carried away however. He will be news for a day and then the mainstream media will probably hype up the death rate or lie about new ways in which you can spread covid to distract us from the issue. The government line will probably be that he was only part of team and that all the other scientists agreed that we needed lockdown as well so go away back to your hovels peasants and let the experts get on with telling you what to do, for your own good of course.

2828 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to RDawg, 8, #118 of 291 🔗

Least we won’t need that Fire Ferguson petition now eeehehehe 😂 😂

2829 ▶▶ guy153, replying to RDawg, 12, #119 of 291 🔗

It doesn’t say how he got caught. Is this him being thrown under the bus I wonder?

2845 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to RDawg, 3, #120 of 291 🔗

Get yourself over to Simon Dolan’s twitter, he’s going through the sage papers.

2827 guy153, replying to guy153, 5, #121 of 291 🔗

That French study is rather interesting. Mimi asked before about what if the epidemic had started much earlier and I answered that it couldn’t have because there would have been more deaths (for reasonable lower estimates of the IFR around 0.1%) sooner and we would have noticed. But it looks like it did, there almost certainly were deaths, and we indeed didn’t notice them.

In France they tested medical samples from patients in late December 2019 and found one positive for SARS-COV2 RNA out of 14 tested.

This means they didn’t just have cases, but at least one rather severe case. The guy was coughing up blood (he recovered and was released on December 29). He hadn’t been to China recently, or anywhere outside France since August when he went to Algeria.

This means he caught it in France. For each severe case there are likely to be several hundred less severe ones. They probably had deaths at that time too.

Why didn’t they notice them? They were having rather a bad flu winter. As did Italy this year (though not the UK).

2867 ▶▶ Mimi, replying to guy153, 7, #122 of 291 🔗

That’s the curve I’ve been hoping someone modeled. A much earlier start to the epidemic, with a big ole peak in February and March. So that our graphs now are just carving a chunk off the right tail. Someone could certainly do it now.

Because maybe there WERE deaths, but just not noticed because no one had heard of Coronavirus and they just coded them as flu or pneumonia. And they didn’t put the patients on ventilators, either, so maybe the ICUs didn’t get overwhelmed and not so many people died (of ventilation.)

2849 ▶▶ AN other lockdown sceptic, replying to tides, 17, #124 of 291 🔗

It would appear that some pigs believed that they were more equal than others ….

2833 Mark, replying to Mark, 29, #125 of 291 🔗

Re the news that Ferguson has resigned over breaking the rules he was instrumental in getting imposed on the nation, should there not be, as standard, exemplary punishments, far higher than the ordinary ones and totally out of proportion to the offence itself, for people caught breaching rules they themselves are involved in imposing or enforcing?

I’d support a law for that – we could call it the Hypocrisy Act.

2834 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Mark, 3, #126 of 291 🔗

😂 😂 😂

2891 ▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Mark, 3, #127 of 291 🔗

If the old bill caught me meeting licitly with my married lover I’d at least get a fine.

2911 ▶▶ ianp, replying to Mark, -1, #128 of 291 🔗

Castration….?

2984 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Mark, 2, #129 of 291 🔗

Malfeasance in public office ?

3023 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Mark, 2, #130 of 291 🔗

Yes – but you’d never get the hypocrites-in-chief (aka MPs) to vote it through!

2838 coalencanth12, replying to coalencanth12, 19, #131 of 291 🔗

The Ferguson news has buoyed my spirits better than several Gin and Tonics! What a disgusting hypocrite. This particularly raises my mood after another joyous briefing/ hectoring from Raab about his sinister ‘new normal’…..

This revelation does not surprise me at all and I imagine most of the other academics on here feel the same. I was wondering which one of these talking heads would fall first.

Broken by the Torygraph it seems. Boris’ old haunt is getting grumpy with the lockdown so I imagine they are pleased they nailed Neil-O. There could be few interesting things going on here, the DT is popular with the Tory rank and file, and a certain Mrs Gove works there. Could also be a ruse to wheel out a new set of ‘experts’.

2844 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to coalencanth12, 9, #132 of 291 🔗

I suspect many people are missing a shag, so I think the key is people will just ignore the advice – well I hope they do. Then it doesn’t matter what the experts say. Also see here, they knew lockdown wouldn’t work before they did it, the Sage papers are the beginning of the end I think https://twitter.com/simondolan/status/1257629942646521857/photo/1

2848 ▶▶▶ coalencanth12, replying to BecJT, 4, #133 of 291 🔗

Interesting the SAGE papers were released today, good find!

Oh dear, the Daily Mail have picked the story up and left that bastion of love and understanding, their below the line comments, Open….. Oh dear!

2850 ▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to coalencanth12, 1, #134 of 291 🔗

Oh dear in a good or bad way? It’s a sewer down there, but will look if it’s worth it.

2856 ▶▶▶▶▶ coalencanth12, replying to BecJT, 3, #135 of 291 🔗

Yes it’s never great, but my he was getting a pasting…

2857 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ coalencanth12, replying to coalencanth12, 2, #136 of 291 🔗

Should I open a bottle of wine? Hmm…

2863 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to coalencanth12, 2, #137 of 291 🔗

Yes!

2873 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to BecJT, 2, #138 of 291 🔗

Christ, I’m opening one too, apart from the sexist drivel that in the second picture she isn’t in fact ‘hot’ (she isn’t, it’s true) and the funny ones about ‘didn’t her husband think it odd she was going out?’ they are a rage fest of ‘end this lockdown now’ – hurrah!

2879 ▶▶▶▶ Old fred, replying to coalencanth12, 1, #139 of 291 🔗

Some funny comments on there!

2876 ▶▶▶ guy153, replying to BecJT, 7, #140 of 291 🔗

It looks like that was the basis for their initial policy of not closing schools and basically doing a Sweden.

When that proved unpopular they fished Fergie’s report (which was actually earlier) back out of the bin so as to have some “science” to follow to justify the lockdown.

Let’s hope they get to explain this to Lady Hale or someone.

2884 ▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to guy153, 9, #141 of 291 🔗

Yes to lady Hale, wonder what brooch she’ll wear for this one, a bat?

2851 Oaks79, replying to Oaks79, 7, #142 of 291 🔗

Neil Ferguson bit on the side a left wing activist who apparently used to send emails for Avaaz who are a global civic movement, I don’t normally do conspiracy theories but….. maybe this whole lockdown goes deeper.
https://twitter.com/andrewtipler/status/1257746349799477248?s=19

2883 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Oaks79, 7, #143 of 291 🔗

It gets even better, it was an ‘open’ relationship, and her husband had symptoms whilst she was popping over. If you can bear it the Mail comments are a hoot.

2852 AN other lockdown sceptic, replying to AN other lockdown sceptic, 10, #144 of 291 🔗

Just made my 2nd contribution to Simon Dolan’s fund with the comment ‘Take them to the cleaners Simon. This is my 2nd contribution for the special Prof Neil fund.’

Here’s the link again in case anyone else would like to do similar –
https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/lockdownlegalchallenge/

3010 ▶▶ ShropshireLass, replying to AN other lockdown sceptic, 2, #145 of 291 🔗

Cheers – lost my job as the result of the lockdown, but still so furious about this lockdown business I’m willing to raid the savings I am currently living on to contribute to Dolan’s efforts – have already made a small donation to this site too – think Toby is doing a sterling job.

2854 AN other lockdown sceptic, replying to AN other lockdown sceptic, 7, #146 of 291 🔗

Prof Neil’s special friend apparently works for something called Avaaz who’s lead article on their site is

‘How Facebook can Flatten the Curve of the Coronavirus Infodemic
Study indicates Facebook is rife with bogus cures and conspiracy theories that remain on the platform long enough to put millions of people at risk’

https://secure.avaaz.org/campaign/en/facebook_coronavirus_misinformation/?slideshow

Lets hope that this is Al Johnson’s Sir David Kelly, Profumo etc moment.

A quick google search shows that the news of Prof Neil’s resignation is already very global.

2858 ▶▶ Oaks79, replying to AN other lockdown sceptic, 7, #147 of 291 🔗

Ferguson’s lover, Antonia Staats, is a Senior Campaigner at Avaaz

Avaaz, a leftist political pressure group. During their startup period, part of its seed money came from one of George Soros Foundations with the intent to push the Climate Change agenda

https://t.co/v1lDngme1D

2860 ▶▶▶ Gracie Knoll, replying to Oaks79, 9, #148 of 291 🔗

My my …… George Soros …… Bill Gates …… the Billionaire Boys’ Club ……. well now, doesn’t this link this whole extravaganza into the last few minutes of ANOTHER George Carlin video?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KLODGhEyLvk
(watch from 7.45-10.58)

“It’s a big club – and you and I ain’t in it!”

(Nor are our politicians. The Big Boys’ Club owns them too!)

2927 ▶▶▶▶ Ethelred the Unready, replying to Gracie Knoll, 5, #149 of 291 🔗

I’m wondering if Fergie could become the fall guy in this, along the lines of..”Our Government based its lockdown strategy on the modelling carried out by Prof Fergie and Imperial College. This modelling suggested 500k deaths leading to the difficult decision to lockdown. We now believe that the modelling carried out may have contained a significant element of political motivation, therefore we are now discarding that modelling and reviewing our lockdown strategy accordingly”….

2870 ▶▶▶ AN other lockdown sceptic, replying to Oaks79, 4, #150 of 291 🔗

House of cards … all being well. 🙂

2855 ianric, replying to ianric, 21, #152 of 291 🔗

Business not being able to operate is having disastrous consequences and I feel business should be allowed to reopen straight away as business not being able to operate is creating massive problems. In our house we had a water pipe burst and until the pipe was repaired we had no running water and or electricity as the water had hit the electrics. We had to stay in hotels and eat out until the problem was sorted. If this happened now we would not be able to stay in hotels or eat out. This made me think what are people whose houses become temporarily uninhabitable due to flood etc supposed to do if they can’t stay in hotels and have no family or friends to stay with and can’t use restaurants.

I am a member of a gym where I pay annual membership. As the gym is closed I have paid for membership I can’t use. How many other people are in a similar situation.

I have read reports that suppliers are having to throw away food because they no longer have orders from restaurants.

I find it grossly unfair that supermarkets can sell non food items because they sell food but shops only selling non food items can’t. For instance supermarkets can sell clothes because they sell food but a shop only selling clothes can’t.

If business restrictions are lifted many businesses will have gone bankrupt which will have disastrous consequences. Business disappearing will have a knock on effect eg suppliers losing orders, unemployed workers with no money to spend. Businesses going bust will mean loss of tax revenue and an increased benefits bill.

2861 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to ianric, 12, #153 of 291 🔗

Exactly and why is it a risk to life and limb to buy compost and bedding plants from my local independent garden centre, but not to go with thousands of others and get them from Aldi? That is NOT scientific.

2868 ▶▶ Mimi, replying to ianric, 12, #154 of 291 🔗

One of our local steakhouses emailed all its customers offering to sell us its freezer stock. We’ve been having some particularly succulent cuts of meat at our kitchen table every evening. Our club has also been selling its paper products.

BecJT, obviously everyone knows you can only catch COVID from small businesses….

2878 ▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Mimi, 8, #155 of 291 🔗

Exactly, and you’ve got to stay away from everyone, not touch things, apart from when you all go to the same place and touch the same things.

2892 ▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to ianric, 8, #156 of 291 🔗

This is because this government can’t do joined up writing

2859 BecJT, replying to BecJT, 18, #157 of 291 🔗

David Davis looks like he’s warming up to chuck ferguson and his model under the bus, do you think this is a coup, and they leaked it to the Telegraph? https://twitter.com/DavidDavisMP/status/1257761432906731520

2898 ▶▶ guy153, replying to BecJT, 8, #158 of 291 🔗

Yes, just came to the same conclusion. It wouldn’t be Johnson– he was loving the “I saved 500k lives” schtick. Probably David got frustrated trying to get Johnson to see sense and resorted to dirty tricks.

2905 ▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to guy153, 10, #159 of 291 🔗

The twitter rumours are it was another or other scientists, he’s famed for his vanity, and they all must be detecting the change in mood, I wonder if he was stabbed in the back as they jostle to come out of this unscathed (not that I care, right result, and all I care about is that this is never, ever, ever allowed to happen again).

2907 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to BecJT, 3, #160 of 291 🔗

Maybe it was his Oxford ex……… 😙

2869 Paul Cuddon, 12, #161 of 291 🔗

Okay, so with one of the attention seeking anarchists out of the way, can we find any juicy gossip on the other attention seeker who will be “announcing the weekly ONS data on BBC [with solemn glee] just after 9.30 next Tuesday”. Together they are a disgrace. “Professor” Neil had already decided his answer a month before he’d published the infamous report.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8005931/British-scientist-leading-coronavirus-fight-says-forecasts-400-000-UK-deaths.html

We’ve being misled by the “science” from the very start and we can only hope SAGE will now look beyond his apocalyptic predictions.

Please start with reviewing the 2m antisocial distancing that has wrecked the economy.

2872 Steve Austin, 38, #162 of 291 🔗

“So, I am here to tell the country to Self Isolate. All except me as I need a shag” – Prof Neil Ferguson. How we laughed. Carry On Covid indeed. You couldn’t make this 5hit up 😂

2874 Farinances, replying to Farinances, 19, #163 of 291 🔗

Top comment on the latest Spiked podcast

” Food for thought…
You install the tracking app on your phone then happen to be sitting within bluetooth range of some stranger who also has the app.

Scenario 1
Half an hour later his murdered body is discovered. Guess who’s going to be top of the suspect list? Good luck if you don’t have a watertight alibi.

OR

Scenario 2
Shortly afterward the stranger is picked up with a trafficable quantity of drugs on him. Guess whose house is going to be searched under warrant? There’s nothing you’ll be able to do to stop this search and you’ll be done for anything the search produces.

If you think for a second that these sorts of things won’t happen, you’re a bloody fool. The police can access the data from the victim’s or suspect’s phone with or without a warrant. In the two scenarios above, a warrant would definitely be issued to obtain your identity from the database.”

P.S. I love Lionel Shriver.

2890 ▶▶ Jack, replying to Farinances, 9, #164 of 291 🔗

If I am to carry an immunity passport it will be a printed copy of the UN’s declaration of human rights, I might also staple a modernised translation of magna-carta to the back of it.

2897 ▶▶ Gracie Knoll, replying to Farinances, 26, #165 of 291 🔗

Well, given that the chief architect of the lockdown didn’t take his own predictions at all seriously, perhaps we (currently) free citizens of the UK should cease taking it so seriously (while protecting the vulnerable) and should take even LESS seriously the need for the Big Brother® Surveillance App!!

We have the 75 year anniversary of VE day coming up, when my parents’ generation suffered the Blitz and fought a tyrannical regime which would have LOVED the Orwellian crap that our OWN Government (or maybe more likely, their multibillionaire handlers, now the truth is coming out) are trying to foist on us. And we have allowed ourselves to get within a hairsbreadth of rolling over and letting them get away with it.

Perhaps we should fight for VL Day (Victory over Lockdown) and celebrate by telling our “Overlords” where to stick their Brave New World.

Dear me, I’m getting uncommonly angry. This house arrest is taking its toll.

2893 Mimi, replying to Mimi, 8, #166 of 291 🔗

But why isn’t anyone reporting on the dangers of water buffalo attacks? https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-52552766

2925 ▶▶ Oaks79, replying to Mimi, 13, #167 of 291 🔗

Will covid be on the death certificate

3024 ▶▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to Oaks79, 5, #168 of 291 🔗

Bovid 19

3041 ▶▶▶▶ wendyk, replying to Tim Bidie, #169 of 291 🔗

Brilliant! Love it!

2895 ianp, replying to ianp, 28, #170 of 291 🔗

Don’t give up the fight. This is the most important battle of our lives. Spent the entire afternoon not doing any work whatsoever and bombarding a BBC (the ultimate fear mongering wankers) comments board with a tonne of information, facts, many of which I have obtained from this very site. Thanks to all of you on here guys.

Its tough to retain your composure in between ridiculous party political and the utter fear addled brainwashed on there and had to reign in my utter rage at this all but if you remain calm (not fucking easy), try not to call out sanctimonious trolling pricks, dial down my usual sarcasm, you can get through to people. One bloke thanked me for the link to the worldometer site ffs! Despite the UK massaged positive test deaths it’s as close to official you can get, but the guy obviously thought this pathetic virus was ebola or whatever. That’s one person hopefully on his way to recovery. Then explained maths of a numerator and denominator to some pompous wanker.

It is possible, the population has been injected with the fear disease, and you have transfuse that shit out of them using the same techniques in which it was applied.

Oh yeah, to whoever posted that Goebbels quote the day..- that went down an absolute treat 🙂

2899 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to ianp, 23, #171 of 291 🔗

I just got absolutely savaged on my own facebook wall by someone I really like, really, really upset me, just a vomit, but so enraging, I’m closed minded and obnoxious apparently (she knows me, I’m neither, but granted I am angry), total dressing down. I said my bit, but it’s so exhausting, keep trying to tell myself, history will be kind to us, someone’s got to do it. Won’t be able to live with myself if I don’t. FEAR is a fascinating thing. And I know in the grand scheme of suffering that’s going on this is a small thing but my local dogs home are putting all the dogs down, why out of all the misery that’s going on that’s sent me over the edge, but it has. Confess I’ve cried like a child. It’s such a mess.

2906 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to BecJT, 1, #172 of 291 🔗

GTHO social media. All it is is a cacophony of people shouting at one another without listening to each other.
Not worth your time or energy.

2910 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to BecJT, 8, #173 of 291 🔗

Fuck Facebook, an echo chamber of preening fools and quite honestly you don’t want to bring that upon yourself. Stay anonymous and make logical irrefutable factual points. Simple maths is the best, it cannot be denied although the fear trolls will try their best to rile you, but you know that someone will read it, understand it, and hopefully then cure themselves. Most people are thick as pigshit though so stick to sums like 1 + 1 =….??

2924 ▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to ianp, 13, #174 of 291 🔗

I know, it’s the lurkers who matter (have had a few messages from people who are too scared to speak up) and the people I know aren’t thick, I think what it is is guilt, they know I’m right, and they have so aggressively policed dissent, and it’s unravelling in front of them, so what does that make them? Cowards. I had had FB deactivated, but had to reactivate for a local project I’m involved in (local councils are using this opportunity to wangle some deeply unpopular stuff through under the radar), but will just turn it off. Thanks both. And I know vulnerable kids aren’t being checked (social workers are checking 5% of vulnerable kids, they make them stand on the door step in front of the neighbours and ask if they are OK! If you were 11 and being raped by your stepdad would you say ‘no’ whilst he lurks in the hall?), or fed, and women are being battered, and people are sitting in the dark waiting for their £94 for five weeks, but something about the mutts at the pound, utterly blameless, utterly powerless, just really got to me. Anyway thanks, onwards and upwards, looking forward to the Ferguson jokes writing themselves today, my favourite so far: So, is it a cockup or a cockdown?

2947 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to BecJT, 15, #175 of 291 🔗

It has always taken real courage to be a dissenter from the majority view. It’s a central irony of our times that those (mostly on the left, broadly) who would see themselves as the heirs of past such dissenters (liberationists of various kinds, advocates of working class causes, conscientious objectors, etc) are nowadays often the most vicious in policing dissent from their own ideas, that are now dominant.

Quite early on in this Peter Hitchens drew attention to the poisonous role that first tv and especially now social media, has played in imposing conformity on our society. and the way this works on platforms like Facebook and, especially, Twitter. The poisonous impact of social media is especially harmful in the way it enables those who see themselves as policing decency, as well as the simply genuinely afraid, to use vitriolic attacks and general social harassment to silence dissenters. And that’s even before they get the social media authorities in to actively censor those views, which is increasingly standard practice.

It is a real, serious and profound problem in our society, and you have experienced the sharp end of it here. On the one hand, it makes sense to advise avoiding those platforms, but that of course cedes them to the bully boys and girls of the mob.

2980 ▶▶▶▶ wendyk, replying to Mark, 8, #176 of 291 🔗

Very well said. When I openly acknowledged my vote for Leave, several friends and family members reacted with a shocked silence-which did eventually dissipate, but even so.

My niece,who works in the City-not at the moment-had great trials with her colleagues when she ‘came out’ as a Leave voter.

Equally, now when one points out that sick frail very old people die in nursing homes from whatever cause and that this is nature’s way,shock horror and claims of callous inhumanity ensue.

And look at the rigorous moderation done by disqus and the like: my tin hat says the algorithms are set to reflect the prevailing lib/left directives on’ correct’ thinking.

Truly it is difficult to be a dissenter, but worth it,as there are more and more of us.

2986 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to wendyk, 7, #177 of 291 🔗

The “vibe” on being a lockdown dissenter is very similar to what it was for being a leaver, as you say, and also quite similar to being an early opponent of the Iraq war, and opposing the wars in Libya and Syria. Having done all those things, I’m quite well qualified to make the comparison….

2989 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ wendyk, replying to Mark, 1, #178 of 291 🔗

Me too; guilty as charged.

3004 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Mark, 8, #179 of 291 🔗

Me too, and I was a passionate remainer and I was so disgusted with where remain ended up, calling people like my mum ‘gammon’, shameful. Ditto the last election, help the poor! one minute, and ‘Sun addled serfs’ the next. And it’s exactly like the weapons of mass destruction fandango, it’s quite shocking. And I hope I don’t offend anyone, it’s exactly like the ‘transwomen are women’ thing that’s ripped through the left, to the point where you get cancelled if you even say ‘aren’t there implications for sex specific data collection in things like the census?’ I don’t mind being a lone voice, but we’re only human, the mean girls in the playground stuff I find really hard to handle.

3022 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to BecJT, 3, #180 of 291 🔗

“it’s exactly like the ‘transwomen are women’ thing that’s ripped through the left”

Yes, though coming from the right I mostly view that kind of thing with a heavy layer of schadenfreude. With the trans stuff, I see feminist zealots who made their fortunes and careers bullying and shouting down political opponents as “sexists” (Germaine Greer, take a bow) getting a little taste of what they’ve spent their lives dishing out (even though I mostly agree with what they are now getting attacked for, which seems pretty much common sense).

Same with all the other examples of the cultural revolutionary zealots of the left getting their comeuppances. People who’ve made their careers based on calling others “racists” or other kinds of “-ists” and “-ites” and “-phobes”, and hounding them out of jobs and platforms, basically because they disapproved of their opinions, now getting smeared and “cancelled” as “antisemites” by people who disapprove of their opinions on Israel (Livingstone and Corbyn, you’re up), or as “islamophobes” (over to you, Trevor Phillipps) for being insufficiently approving of Islam, are two more great sets of examples.

Turns out, what goes around does actually sometimes come around, after all. Or perhaps more aptly in this context: the revolution devours its children….

3029 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ wendyk, replying to Mark, 3, #181 of 291 🔗

Try stating that 46XX cannot be altered and neither can 46XY, and you’ll be vilified ,insulted and condemned.
So the outward appearance may be adjusted, surgically and pharmacologically altered but the genetic code which directs every cell in the body will still be as it was at birth.

3031 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ wendyk, replying to wendyk, 3, #182 of 291 🔗

And meant to add: questionnaires on various topics from the local authority now contain many different gender categories,which I find extremely annoying and frankly, a cost which we could do without.

3644 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Jonathan Castro, replying to Mark, #183 of 291 🔗

Indeed, our views appear to match all those counts!

3026 ▶▶▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to wendyk, 5, #184 of 291 🔗

WendyK, I’m a dissenter and up until this fiasco I considered myself pretty left wing. I’m astonished at the herd mentality of the left in respect of this lockdown and I must feel like Orwell felt when he was writing Animal Farm. I always leaned to the left because I thought (eons ago probably) that it championed liberty for all not just the better off. Not so much now. I’m beginning to have contempt for some who I would have once called natural allies. BTW in the EU ref I was torn about casting my vote, wasn’t a left/right thing for me.

3030 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ wendyk, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 2, #185 of 291 🔗

Having read a couple of Orwell’s works in the past year, I think he would have been appalled at what is going on today.

2900 Sally, replying to Sally, 10, #186 of 291 🔗

Toby is no doubt correct in assuming that many members of SPI-B are lefties. It doesn’t seem that long ago that lefties would, as a matter of principle, have sought out societal solutions that were the least restrictive/most voluntary possible, that emphasised co-operation rather than coercion. Now the left is dangerously authoritarian. I still don’t understand what has happened to the left, but it frightens me on a daily basis.

Also, from the front page of The Telegraph: “What we are going to see is more self-selection and personal responsibility. The over-70s are a very sensible group. By and large they know if they should be staying indoors or not.” Why was this eminently sane and dare I say sage approach not taken from day 1?

2901 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Sally, 12, #187 of 291 🔗

Plus they’ve lost their grip on material analysis, it’s a plank of the left that health and wealth are connected, where’s that gone? Personally I think the over 70s should suit themselves, quality of life matters as much as being simply alive.

2913 ▶▶▶ wendyk, replying to BecJT, 10, #188 of 291 🔗

Many on the left have the health and the wealth: they are increasingly a smug, hypocritical coterie with far too much influence.

2923 ▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to wendyk, 4, #189 of 291 🔗

I’ve never voted Tory in my life, but totally agree with you, it’s become rather gross to watch.

2933 ▶▶▶▶▶ wendyk, replying to BecJT, 3, #190 of 291 🔗

Your broad church is working BecJT, since I’m a Leave supporter but we’ve agreed on many topics on this site.

2936 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to wendyk, 1, #191 of 291 🔗

Thanks, ditto.

2902 dlb, 5, #192 of 291 🔗

Google and Apple are exposing means of running tracking / tracing apps in the manner their own versions do currently. But any additional service that’s always running, and especially one scanning wireless peers, will tax the battery of course.

I wonder if T&T proponents have considered that the presence of these apps may encourage people to become infected? Because if they don’t have antibodies ( assuming those confer immunity ) and are found to have been near an ‘infected’ , they’re likely to be forced into quarantine. And that could happen repeatedly, resulting from any exposure to the public. So catching COVID preemptively makes sense, especially for someone outside of the risk profile.

But that could be good, if it builds up the immune base – otherwise these apps are unlikely to provide any benefit and will only demoralize and frighten the public.

2909 wendyk, 3, #193 of 291 🔗

Lockdown Fergie caught in the act,
He predicted our doom
As a matter of fact
Now we’ll resist and we’ll dispel the gloom
The expert has resigned before he was sacked.

Good riddance.
Aux armes citoyens and citoyennes

2912 wendyk, 5, #194 of 291 🔗

Perhaps the government should take advice from Mystic Meg from now on.
Might achieve a less damaging outcome.

2917 wendyk, replying to wendyk, 11, #195 of 291 🔗

Will the Special Branch be paying a visit to the High Priest of Hypocrisy? He’s broken his own rules and has access to sensitive stuff, like how to wreck the economy and thousands of lives.

2939 ▶▶ Ethelred the Unready, replying to wendyk, 4, #196 of 291 🔗

No, they are busy bullying Farage

2943 ▶▶▶ wendyk, replying to Ethelred the Unready, 1, #197 of 291 🔗

A sign of the times

2921 Peter Forsythe, replying to Peter Forsythe, 1, #198 of 291 🔗

How about this for the costs of lockdown vs costs of the virus? For the US. Uses the Value of Statistical Life (VSL) concept. https://thebattleoftours.blogspot.com/2020/04/pandemic-costs-costs-of-lockdowns-vs.html

2940 ▶▶ giblets, replying to Peter Forsythe, 4, #199 of 291 🔗

NICE do this already, we use QALY (quality-adjusted life-year , basically how many years extra life and what is the quality of that life)), and by all accounts, if this was a drug we would not be funding it (never mind the fact that it is killing patients…..surely the top medics must have this in their Hippocratic Oath!?)

2922 wendyk, replying to wendyk, 11, #200 of 291 🔗

2003 : dodgy dossier; disastrous invasion of Iraq

2020: erroneous epidemiology; disastrous lockdown

2934 ▶▶ Margaret, replying to wendyk, 7, #201 of 291 🔗

Yes. Will Covid 19 turn out to be Boris’s “Weapons of mass destruction”?

2942 ▶▶▶ wendyk, replying to Margaret, 3, #202 of 291 🔗

You could be right Margaret

2948 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Margaret, 9, #203 of 291 🔗

Probably. The trouble is that the main similarity is that the opposition, then as now, was largely complicit, along with the majority of the political, media and social elites of the country. That means there are an awful lot of people with a very strong interest in muddying the waters and evading actually pointing fingers where they should be pointed.

Despite being widely seen as having lied the country into involvement in what is widely recognised as one of the greatest foreign policy disasters in recent history, Blair was reelected in 2005.

As someone who broadly prefers the Conservatives over the available alternatives and strongly prioritises protecting the result of the Brexit referendum, I won’t mind too much if that is the political result this time. The problem is that just as the failure to punish Iraq enabled further costly errors in Libya and Syria, the failure to properly punish this coercive lockdown will likely result in repetition of this disastrous error in the future.

I suppose I’m in the position of a Labour supporter in 2004, which is perhaps a little ironic. Though I would say that Johnson’s failure here was weakness, whereas Blair’s in 2003 was flat out mendacious evil.

2958 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Mark, 1, #204 of 291 🔗

Yeah, thud basically. Although I’d day I’ve been in that position since I first voted (2002) cause I’ve always felt like a traditional Labour voter without a traditional Labour party to vote for

2991 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Mark, 3, #205 of 291 🔗

Imho, Johnson was portrayed as being weak, over-influenced by experts, pressured by the media and public opinion. Cuddly buffoon, etc.
Whereas the ‘lockdown’ of 140 countries was clearly planned in detail well in advance. Probably to cover the economic meltdown, that we have yet to face.

3014 ▶▶▶▶▶ ianp, replying to JohnB, 3, #206 of 291 🔗

This is what is most worrying. I usually hate things that can be labelled ‘conspiracy theory’ but it’s so suspicious. I think I would prefer it if they were all as fucking incompetent as each other and fell like dominoes. The only heroes would then be Belarus, Nicaragua, then to lesser extent Sweden. Semi honourable mentions to God forbid : trump ( he has at least been fighting it at the start but always has his own agenda), bolsonaro in Brazil – not sure what’s happening there now…

3645 ▶▶▶▶ Jonathan Castro, replying to Mark, 1, #207 of 291 🔗

I voted “Conservative” last time to protect the referendum result but that was the last time. Next time it will be back to UKIP or another proper conservative party.

2962 ▶▶ Pebbles, replying to wendyk, 2, #208 of 291 🔗

Totally agree. Also, for those who don’t remember or never knew just how dodgy and manipulated the 45min claim was in that said dossier back in 2003, head out and get yourself a copy of “The Strange Death of Dr David Kelly” by Norman Baker. It has excellent information about various lethal bioweapons too, where they are manufactured, how much is happening with government’s knowing, shady individuals traveling with bioweapons on airplanes… mind-bending information, extremely well researched. A must read, as timely as ever.
So yes:
2003: dodgy dossier, disastrous invasion of Iraq
2020: dodgy model, disastrous lockdown

2994 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Pebbles, #209 of 291 🔗

Yes Pebbles, brilliant book !

The last chapter excepted, which to me is obvious bollocks.
Possibly ‘suggested’ by the secret squirrels, as the book took Norman into dangerous territory and would greatly have annoyed the ‘usual suspects’.

2926 Tim Bidie, replying to Tim Bidie, 9, #210 of 291 🔗

It seems incredible that the cracks are only now beginning to show in the ‘Carry on Covid!’ carapace.

The Neil Ferguson ‘pants down’ (weeping helplessly…..the ribs…..was the strangely thin tufty barnet a clue to what lay within…..?) oooh la la french farce should at least bring the calibre of these ‘thought leaders’ to the attention of a much wider cross section of the public.

Meanwhile the science that really discredits these numpties moves on apace.

Contributors to this site have been saying for months now that the virus quite plainly must have spread a great deal earlier than the hopeless data fed into the ‘maths whizz’ adolescent computer gaming models had guesstimated

The Cambridge University study looking into the origins of the virus indicated that the earliest it could have spread to humans would have been in early September (in China but not in Wuhan) and commented that the earliest European victim was identified in Germany in January. Research in France now shows the virus present in December. Chinese students returned to European universities in late September……the science not there yet but you know the rest……

https://www.pnas.org/content/117/17/9241

Now would the person taking over the ‘pants down’ ‘Pi Top Raspberry Pi’ laptop please rework the ‘maths whizz’ with the virus spreading in Britain from October……and tell the government to the end this grotesquely silly, nationally demeaning joke of a lockdown. Their own reputation will not recover but the rest of us would like to get out there and tell the world that Britain is not really quite that hopeless………

2932 ▶▶ ianp, replying to Tim Bidie, 11, #211 of 291 🔗

This is the problem, no politician will admit they were wrong, when has it ever happened this quickly?

My fear is that it will get brushed under the carpet and followed up by more diversionary bullshit.

It beggars belief that most of the world is in lockdown. Think about that… The fucking.whole.world – what are people saying and doing in those countries? We have heard about the French.

Even though I don’t like the man at all, I can only see the USA and Trump being able to turn this around. He was the one who said it was a hoax, he was the one who said the cure was worse than the disease… The latter is oh so true, and in some respects the former. He has been constantly haranguing states to open up right?

Or has he now changed tack to this fucking stupid blame game on the Chinese? How does that matter right now…?

3000 ▶▶ coalencanth12, replying to Tim Bidie, 2, #212 of 291 🔗

I’ve also been thinking this might turn out to be a WMD style fiasco. I remember them days well, at first the media were largely behind the strategy (well it was largely opposite to today – the Guardian were opposed I seem to remember unlike their current antics) but then the cracks started to appear as it all went belly up a year or so down the line. The consequences now will be far more severe.

2928 Ethelred the Unready, 15, #213 of 291 🔗

To me, the ‘story’ here isn’t so much the flouting of the lockdown ‘rules’, but more the potential politically motivated interference in Fergie’s modelling, given his tart’s political predilections

2929 Oaks79, 1, #214 of 291 🔗

Gave

2930 Oaks79, #215 of 291 🔗

Have we had any serological studies results from anyone here yet, no university or private lab etc do any ?

2931 wendyk, 1, #216 of 291 🔗

Dr Strangelove returns, complete with shaggy dog story: you couldn’t make it up!

2935 ianp, replying to ianp, 12, #217 of 291 🔗

Here is something else I noticed when herding the sheep on a BBC message board yesterday.

People are now equating Cases = fatalities as almost the same thing.

Yup! I detect it in the comments… We have got the most cases! Then the personal bollocks like because they personally got it, were a bit ill, then recovered means that they are a victim who needs the Samaritans help line or something.

Then the insidious notion that an asymptomatic person is somehow ‘unhealthy’ and must be rooted out.

It goes with what I noted from the BBC propaganda machine : the aim is to have ‘no cases’. It’s just mind-blowing

A lot of people are not prepared to the unplugged from their fantasy world ye

2938 ▶▶ giblets, replying to ianp, 11, #218 of 291 🔗

Yep, have you noticed when the NHS deaths started dropping, they started including the care home cases, as they have started dropping, they have now gone on to cases. Which is great, because we have upped the testing, there are a lot more cases!
Once that finished, they will look at Serological testing, as that number will be huge. Then they will tell us that it was a waste of time and the death rate was too low, how stupid were the politicians were.

2941 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to giblets, 8, #219 of 291 🔗

Yes. And take zero responsibility themselves. I truly hope this day of retribution comes soon

2946 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to ianp, 6, #220 of 291 🔗

It’s mad isn’t it, a bit like ‘number of red heads have quadrupled in a week, says person who has just quadrupled their counting of red heads’.

2937 Bob, replying to Bob, #221 of 291 🔗

Where in the PNAS/Cambridge paper does it say September for being on China? (Apologies if it’s obvious!)

2953 ▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to Bob, #222 of 291 🔗

The Prof. says it here, expanding regarding the paper (which contains the map supporting his conclusions):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQQf2yoymu0

2944 Mark Burkes, 9, #223 of 291 🔗

Just arrived here after Lionel Shriver mention on Brendan O’Neill’s podcast. Keep up the good work. I don’t engage with mainstream media, TV, newspaper or radio, so it takes me some time to discover new sources of information worth considering.

2945 AN other lockdown sceptic, replying to AN other lockdown sceptic, 5, #224 of 291 🔗

Tucker Carlson last night opened with the Professor Pantsdown carry on story

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFNvcw12d08

2949 ▶▶ Mark, replying to AN other lockdown sceptic, 7, #225 of 291 🔗

That’s a great riff by Tucker Carlson on coronavirus hypocrisy in politicians and journalists. I would challenge anyone to resist the urge to vomit when they see Canadian Prime Minister Trudeau sanctimoniously telling people that staying home is “what Jesus would do”, followed by promptly jetting off to see his own family, or CNN anchor Chris Cuomo condemning people sitting in the sun as “fools” and berating them for not considering other people, after himself having gotten caught roaming around outside WHILE INFECTED without mask or gloves when he claimed to be quarantining himself.

2950 ▶▶▶ Moomin, replying to Mark, 5, #226 of 291 🔗

Shocking hypocrisy! To be fair, I didn’t hear Trudeau say it’s what Jesus would do, maybe I missed it, but as a Christian I find it hard not to get frustrated by people like that selectively using Jesus, especially to manipulate people and especially since he clearly doesn’t know what Jesus did, namely healing lepers by touching them, not by isolating Himself from them!

2951 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Moomin, #227 of 291 🔗

No, you are right he didn’t explicitly say that and I shouldn’t have put it in quotes as though it was a direct quote. That was Tucker Carlson’s hyperbole based on Trudeau’s overall message.

3005 ▶▶▶▶▶ AN other lockdown sceptic, replying to Mark, 1, #228 of 291 🔗

TC’s book ‘Ship of Fools: How a Selfish Ruling Class Is Bringing America to the Brink of Revolution’ is a great read https://tinyurl.com/y7z2fw5h

2952 kh1485, replying to kh1485, 23, #229 of 291 🔗

So now the government adviser who forced us into lockdown has been found to have flouted his own advice. Three points:

1. I *believe* that I have had this disease. So according to the scientist’s justification for his flouting of the rules, I may also have developed immunity (does his assertion of such mean that he and the government know something he /they are not telling the rest of us).

2. Wouldn’t this mean that those who also believe they have had the disease could return to work and why aren’t they rolling out antibody tests so that this could happen quickly? (I don’t want a vaccine that has been rushed out so quickly …).

3. This scientist should not only relinquish his SAGE appointment (which, obviously he had done), but he should be sacked from Imperial College and his advice never sought again. Perhaps then he may understand what it is like to have had many years of hard work essentially destroyed. But, in his case he would know that it was down to his own actions rather than the actions of others.

2955 ▶▶ wendyk, replying to kh1485, 11, #230 of 291 🔗

Agreed ;the Imperial Emperor has no clothes.

Think of the damage suffered by farmers when his BSE predictions were avidly acted upon: millions of animals slaughtered, farmers losing their livelihoods,horrible scenes of mass pyres for animal carcases.

I recall watching experienced vets in tears, having had to take young calves away to be shot.

Yet since then he has enjoyed the same influence. Why?

The trouble is that as others have said, monumental cock ups like this are usually brushed aside and the perpetrators quietly moved sideways or overseas, rarely losing the income and prospects suffered by the public at large.

An investigation is called for, but whom could we trust as an impartial adjudicator?

3008 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to wendyk, 4, #231 of 291 🔗

I’m afraid that is the depressing reality of all this: I do not trust those who have our future in their hands (they close ranks and walk away unscathed from the carnage they create). I’m afraid, from bitter personal experience of trying to hold government agencies to account, any faith I had (and it was minimal to start with) has now gone. My freedom/liberty soon to go the same way as my business probably. The only positive, as I sit at home alone wondering how the hell to get my business back up and running, is that there are many others with the same opinion.

3009 ▶▶▶ Roger Tame, replying to wendyk, 1, #232 of 291 🔗

Justice Sumption, Toby Young, Dr John Lee?

2972 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to kh1485, 7, #233 of 291 🔗

They are not rolling out antibody tests because desperate people would attempt to catch it to stave off imminent starvation (and also it’d show it’s a lie and most of us have already had it)

2954 Tim Bidie, 5, #234 of 291 🔗

So, given that the architect of the entire global panic clearly is by no means afraid of….. ‘no immunity after recovery…..possibility of reinfection……virus can stay on surfaces for months……….more nuttiness……….’ why should anyone else in the world have the slightest concern about this coronavirus, just like they don’t about the common cold, also caused by coronaviruses…….oh….there’s a thought there somewhere……it couldn’t just be another common cold coronavirus…….could it……..consider the possibility………and the implications……….

Oh for heaven’s sake!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAg1s1ByYfM

2956 Steve Austin, replying to Steve Austin, 9, #235 of 291 🔗

‘Who would have thought that Neil Ferguson’s downfall was the result of spending too long pouring over Staats’

2961 ▶▶ wendyk, replying to Steve Austin, 2, #236 of 291 🔗

Brilliant!

He’s assumed until recently the position as de facto head of the Covid Stasi :(Staatssicherheitsdienst, SSD

How are the mighty fallen.

2999 ▶▶ Mark H, replying to Steve Austin, #237 of 291 🔗

Nicely done.

2957 ianp, replying to ianp, 4, #238 of 291 🔗

Genuine question to anyone qualified… So my partner works in the NHS, got ill a month or so ago. A covid ward patient coughed in her face! Got tested for covid- positive. Probable double dose and her immune system in general isn’t great so she has been laid low but recovering.

I haven’t been social distancing at all, I knew that was all bollocks. So I would think I must have had it. No doubt. Didn’t even bother quarantining myself of course.

No symptoms, no real surprise, I am generally very healthy, plenty of exercise, sun, and never get sick.

But, being an (almost) ex smoker I am a regular vaper. In fact, I vape like a demon… Especially recently.

I read somewhere that the percentage of those critically ill that were smokers was remarkably small and so that it could be an anti-viral?

Is there any potential proof or science behind this? I probably doubt it but If so, having endured the disapproving tutting of certain people for a long time from the killjoys wanting to control your life, this would be the delicious of all delicious ironies in this sorry mess.

2960 ▶▶ GLT, replying to ianp, 1, #239 of 291 🔗

As far as I know just a statistical observation from a group of French hospital patients. I imagine any studies to properly establish a link will take a long time. The French doctor leading the study made an off-hand comment that smoking might reduce your chances of ending up in ICU but might worsen your chances of survival if you did end up there. Sorry!

2987 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to GLT, #240 of 291 🔗

Cheers for that! So a relevant question would be the degree to which it would reduce risk of ICU compared to increase risk of death if you end up there. Either way, it will take a hell of a long time to come out, and would be so politically incorrect…At least I don’t have to worry about herd panic buying of vape juice anytime soon… 🙂

2997 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to ianp, 1, #241 of 291 🔗

The French doctor did add that the figures were ‘remarkable’ or ‘noteworthy’, some such word.
(Admission of interest – I smoke tobacco. 🙂 ) .

2959 Oaks79, replying to Oaks79, 11, #242 of 291 🔗

You’re a politician facing a crisis. The media and your own experts tell you to pursue Policy X. Within weeks, you see Policy X is not just wrong but a fiasco. It worsens the problem. It has terrible side effects. It displaces policies that might actually work. BUT. BUT…

The media still LOVES Policy X. And thus the public does too. Your poll numbers have never been higher.

So what do you do? How do you get away from Policy X without admitting your mistake? Or do you at all?

After all, you’re not a saint. You’re a politician.

https://twitter.com/AlexBerenson/status/1257518722794823681?s=19

2967 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Oaks79, 4, #243 of 291 🔗

Yes exactly. This is the hugest arse covering exercise possibly in history

2978 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to Farinances, 1, #244 of 291 🔗

Yep – R’s used to cover arses!

2990 ▶▶▶▶ wendyk, replying to IanE, 1, #245 of 291 🔗

What will the ‘R’ number be for this debacle?

2968 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Oaks79, 9, #246 of 291 🔗

Desperately get my agents to hurriedly dig up some dirt on the advisory panel, hit the jackpot when you discover your chief adviser is a sexually incontinent hypocrite and throw him to the Daily Mail. That’s what I’d do.

2971 ▶▶▶ wendyk, replying to BecJT, 3, #247 of 291 🔗

Agree, but I’d choose the Sun for a memorable headline and hopefully Rod Liddle could do a number

2993 ▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to wendyk, 2, #248 of 291 🔗

My favourite comment to date is: cockdown or cockup?

2979 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to BecJT, 2, #249 of 291 🔗

I believe it was the Telegraph that revealed his hypocrisy.

2992 ▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to IanE, 1, #250 of 291 🔗

I know, but I think the Mail will run with the moral outrage, infidelity, shagging, hypocrite, it’s right up their alley.

2963 sunchap, replying to sunchap, 16, #251 of 291 🔗

Getting hilarious here in New Zealand. All of our 15 dead have had serious underlying medical conditions. It would appear Covid19 has killed no one.Our PM was predicting 80,000 dead and claims her lockdown saved tens of thousands from death. And Kiwis believe her. OMG, I am ashamed of my country.

Our Police have admitted that their legal advice was that the lockdown was unlawful. Prior laws only allowed for quarantining of the sick. The police had refused to let a man visit his (now dead) father in a rest home…

The thing that makes me laugh the most is journalists twisting the Swedish stats. “600 dead out of 10 million is TWICE AS BAD per capita as Norway”. The actual statistical difference is tiny ie about 0.1% IFR versus 0.2% IFR. Ferguson was predicting tens of thousands woul.

2966 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to sunchap, 6, #252 of 291 🔗

And why are they only comparing Scandinavia to Scandinavia? Cause er last I checked there are PLENTY of countries all around the world whose figures are way worse whilst also having been in lockdown

2970 ▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Farinances, 1, #253 of 291 🔗

Wanted to ask, what’s happening in poor countries that can’t socially distance (say, slums or shanty towns) and haven’t got our medical infrastructure or hygiene even, what’s happening in those places?

2976 ▶▶▶▶ IanE, replying to BecJT, 5, #254 of 291 🔗

Mass deaths – but not from Covid, from starvation due to loss of any form of employment due to the Lockdown. This is possibly the biggest scandal arising from this Lockdown pandemic.

2988 ▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to BecJT, 2, #255 of 291 🔗

Life expectancy is about 60 in such places at the best of times and Covid-19 is going to be the least of your worries.

2964 ianric, replying to ianric, 12, #256 of 291 🔗

The coronavirus situations raises numerous questions.

1) Is the government being dishonest when releasing figures for the number of people who have died from coronavirus? Are people being classed as dying from coronavirus when no tests were done? Are people testing positive for Coronvirus after death but didn’t develop any symptoms and died of something else. For instance, Eddie Large recently died and had a history of heart problems and the news said he tested positive for coronavirus. Did Eddie Large die of heart problems without developing coronavirus? We are given daily figures for the number who have died from Coronavirus. The impression is given the number have died on the same day when in reality the deaths have occurred over a period of time and it may be some time before deaths are officially recorded. For instance, the government says 700 people have died today which gives the scary impression large numbers of people are dying on the same day when in reality the deaths have occurred over a long period of time. The government doesn’t say this. If I remember correctly the doctors from California whose video was banned said doctors are under pressure to put coronavirus as the cause of death. If coronavirus is such a dangerous and deadly disease which justifies a draconian lockdown, why do the authorities need to resort of dishonesty to inflate the number of people dying from coronavirus?
If a disease is dangerous, has a high fatality rate and is a major threat, you should never have to resort to manipulating and inflating death statistics to show this. For instance, the black death showed horrific symptoms and killed a third of Europe’s population. Historians would not need to resort to dishonesty to show how deadly the black death was. The link below shows the issues with coronavirus death statistics

https://off-guardian.org/2020/05/05/covid-19-is-a-statistical-nonsense/

2) If there is a slam dunk case for the coronavirus is a dangerous and deadly disease, the modern equivalent of the black death and justifies a brutal lockdown narrative, why is scientific opinion so divided with scientists saying the fatality rate is low and lockdowns don’t work. If the coronavirus was so deadly and draconian lockdowns were the only method of dealing with the disease, should there not be more scientific consensus? If there is a strong case for the coronavirus is deadly and we must shut down everything down idea, why did youtube remove the video of the two Californian doctors rather than just respond to their arguments?

3) If there is a major risk of infection, is it possible to allow businesses currently unable to operate to openif precautions are taken. For instance, just before the lockdown a restaurant in my town had a notice saying customers need to wash their hands before sitting, items commonly touched by customers eg door handles would be disinfected on a regular basis, only card payments were taken. Is shutting down businesses justified?

4) How accurate are coronavirus tests? Do coronavirus tests give false positives and can tests distinguish between covid 19 and other viruses. If tests are not reliable, how can we trust figures on the numbers with coronavirus.

2973 ▶▶ guy153, replying to ianric, 5, #257 of 291 🔗

1) It does actually make sense to just record “had covid” on death certificates as it is often a matter of judgment what an old person actually died of. If they hadn’t had heart disease, maybe they would have survived Covid, or vice versa, etc. So for consistency of data (also when comparing different countries), just record whether they tested postive for Covid or not. Then you look at the total number of deaths months later, compare it to historical averages, and look at the number who had Covid, vs excess deaths that didn’t have Covid. This is the best data you can expect to get.

So the number who died with Covid is not the number who died “of” Covid and should not be used to estimate fatality rates. But it is what you should record and it has its uses.

2) In the early days it certainly looked like it was much more fatal, but as more data arrives, we have found it’s probably 10 or 20 times less so. The fatality rate tells us two things: how many people might die, but, more importantly, we can use it to infer where we are in the course of the epidemic by looking at the number who are dead. The latter is more important for strategy. If it’s very early on, you have a shot at eradication or containment, with test track and trace etc. If you already have hundreds of thousands of infections, you have no choice but to let it run its course, mitigated by a sensible recommendations and guidance (wash your hands).

The only time a lockdown might be a good idea is a short one (for 3 or 4 weeks or so) to reduce peak load on health services, or, early in the epidemic, as a precursor to a test, track and trace strategy. There is no justification for an extended lockdown in the current situation for all plausible values of the IFR.

3) Yes a few sensible precautions are a good idea, but there is no point shutting down businesses. You can’t stop the virus spreading, and it has already mostly finished anyway.

4) Various tests have difference levels of accuracy, but these are factored into the results which will be quoted as a range over which there is a 95% confidence interval. This is all fine and is how medical testing always works. The idea is not that you throw out the whole result because it isn’t perfect, but you just figure out what what it does tell you, which will be something like, “there is a 95% confidence interval that between 14% and 15.5% of some population has antibodies”, that kind of thing.

3410 ▶▶▶ ianric, replying to guy153, #258 of 291 🔗

When we are given daily figures for the number who have supposedly died from coronavirus we are not given any context such as did these people have any other serious medical conditions and it is uncertain whether they died with or from coronavirus.

2965 swedenborg, 2, #259 of 291 🔗

‘No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy,’ said Von Moltke. Our so-called ‘plans’ for dealing with the outbreak have not survived contact with COVID-19.
https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-19-unravelling-the-uncertainties/
Interesting article from the Oxford Evidence Based Group. Serious concern that there could be an unknown co-infection with Covid-19

2969 GLT, replying to GLT, 6, #260 of 291 🔗

In addition to their failure to realise that the health of the economy is linked to real life health, lives and well-being, those who say ‘better to do something than not’ completely fail to recognise that the ‘rainy day pot’ has been blown on a summer shower. When a pathogen emerges that does have a 9% IFR rate and is genuinely terrifying they will wonder why the government cannot afford to pay them to stay at home. We have to hope that if/when this occurs our economy has had a semblance of recovery.

2974 ▶▶ IanE, replying to GLT, 3, #261 of 291 🔗

Totally agree – except for the fact that there is no rainy day pot.

2981 ▶▶ Mark, replying to GLT, 5, #262 of 291 🔗

The reality is that politicians will always prefer to act than not to act, because you get blamed for inaction anyway, and the blame for inaction seen as costly is much worse than the blame for action that is much more costly. Consider the original US “Swine Flu SNAFU” in 1976, when Gerald Ford and his advisers, in the face of divided advice, chose action over inaction, with disastrous consequences:

https://www.irememberjfk.com/swine-flu-scare-the-1976-version/

The question is, how do we encourage a society and a government in which this tendency is minimised? Clearly, not the way we currently run things….

2982 GLT, 2, #264 of 291 🔗

It’s a bit unfair as it is not their main focus, however this story ran in today’s Telegraph. It is beyond satire.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/rise-mobility-could-trigger-deadlier-second-wave-infections/

2985 ShropshireLass, replying to ShropshireLass, 10, #265 of 291 🔗

On the subject of the danger of the UK morphing into a police state: I had always been a bit of a ‘Goody goody’ – former school prefect and all that. 8 days ago on one of my village walkabouts I observed what appeared to be a drug deal taking place. Tried ringing police but line was engaged, so when I got home I emailed the local Neighbourhood Police Team: ‘This may be helpful general information relating to some suspicious behaviour observed yesterday late afternoon, involving 3 – 7 males. (Not related to covid-19). When they have time, could a local police officer give me a ring on my ex-directory landline: XXX and I’ll relate what I saw. Some information may help future patrols to be on the alert for these people & vehicles and make their own observations if they know where to look.’ FOUR days later I get this reply: ‘Can you please let the Team known the nature of the suspicious behaviour and where it was seen? It is possible that it was also a breach of the COVID-19 measures as your stated that it involved 3-7 males. If they are not from the same household, then there are only a few limited reasons for why they should be meeting.’ I replied straight away: ‘ I would prefer to describe the incident over the phone please. I suspect that it could potentially be drug related?’ Received an automated reply. Another FOUR more days have passed and no response to my report to date. Can only assume 7 blokes meeting up for a chat is a far more serious “crime” than what could have been quite a big drug deal.

So annoyed I decided to become a rebel and drove 4 miles to the nearby market town to pick up a take-away cream tea from my favourite cafe, and also visit the excellent butchers there. Returning to my car (1 of only 2 in the large car park) I sat for a minute having a drink of water, only to have 2 retirees come into the car park, stare and point at both cars, observe me drinking water in mine and proceed to take out a little book and pen and proceed to write in it. They then hurried off. Now expecting the police to knock on my door saying I have been observed making an unessential journey and should be shopping in my local village store. Arrgghhh. Stop the planet – I want to get off!

3003 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to ShropshireLass, -2, #266 of 291 🔗

Your drug of choice is a cream tea. Mine is ludicrously still illegal in the UK.

Now where is my teensy weensy violin … ?

2996 Sim18, 1, #267 of 291 🔗

Interesting interview with Prof Streeck of Bonn University
https://unherd.com/thepost/german-virologist-finds-covid-fatality-rate-of-0-24-0-36/

2998 Disgruntled, replying to Disgruntled, 10, #268 of 291 🔗

I read something in the Mail today that blew me away (had to jump on the ONS site to confirm the numbers). As of the 24th April, how many people under the age of 45 have died in the UK?

332.

That’s 332 out of nearly 30k deaths. 332 out of nearly 200k confined cases. 332 out of God knows how many actual cases (5, 10, 15 million?).

Only considering confirmed cases, that puts the CFR at around 0.17% for <45s, keeping in mind that hospitalisations will not be representative of the population by age. If, say, we've actually had 2 million infections, that puts the under 45s IFR at 0.02%.

Based on this there is no excuse for keeping a vast swath of the working population under house arrest for a day longer.

3013 ▶▶ Bob, replying to Disgruntled, #269 of 291 🔗

Confirmed case is a much more informative way of describing someone who as tested positive from the PCR test, rather than just a case.

3016 ▶▶▶ Bob, replying to Bob, 2, #270 of 291 🔗

Also, from the total death spreadsheet at https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-daily-deaths , up to 28th April, 215 people younger than 60 and without a pre-existing condition have died with covid. This is 1.1% of the total!

3035 ▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Bob, #271 of 291 🔗

When the count is that low it starts to become quite likely that they had an undiagnosed pre-existing condition anyway.

3002 coalencanth12, replying to coalencanth12, 1, #272 of 291 🔗

Someone on here put us onto the twitter of Mason Mills, who is this sinister character? His Tweets are cryptic but suggest some insider knowledge and he is followed by a few journalists. Is he one of the Dominic Cummings brigade?

3011 ▶▶ Oaks79, replying to coalencanth12, 1, #273 of 291 🔗

Yes I think he is one of Cummings brigade. Throughout last year he was calling stuff before they was happening and I mean spot on as if he was in the mix

3018 ▶▶▶ coalencanth12, replying to Oaks79, 1, #274 of 291 🔗

Cheers thought so!

3017 wendyk, replying to wendyk, 2, #277 of 291 🔗

https://order-order.com/2020/05/06/experts-respond-government-nhs-app-rebuttal/

The app is not apping as it should: Guido is on the case

3019 ▶▶ IanE, replying to wendyk, 2, #278 of 291 🔗

App-reciated!

3033 ▶▶ GLT, replying to Cbird, 2, #280 of 291 🔗

What a great discussion of our daily relationship with risk and mortality.

3027 Gracie Knoll, 3, #281 of 291 🔗

EVERYBODY – WATCH THIS – NOW!

https://plandemicmovie.com/

(If it’s not been censored!)

Terrifying – obscene – but ultimately – HOPE!!

Note the quotation at the end of the film’s overview; this had never occurred to me before:

“2020 (20/20) is the code for perfect vision….it may also be the year which will go down in history as the moment we finally opened our eyes.”

3028 Mark, replying to Mark, 6, #282 of 291 🔗

New update for today on the excellent Swiss site, swprs.org, with a number of great links:

https://swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19/#latest

3034 ▶▶ wendyk, replying to Mark, 3, #283 of 291 🔗

Thank you; this is definitely one of the most cogent and useful sites. Well laid out and replete with succinct summaries for the sceptics

3037 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to wendyk, 3, #284 of 291 🔗

Yes, I’ve been anxiously refreshing it daily for the past week, worried that they might have stopped posting, as they hadn’t updated since 25th April and had been much more frequent previously. Great relief to see them update again today.

3036 ▶▶ SteveB, replying to Mark, 4, #285 of 291 🔗

That site is gold dust!

3038 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to SteveB, #286 of 291 🔗

Sure is!

3039 ▶▶▶ Oaks79, replying to SteveB, 2, #287 of 291 🔗

Isn’t just, the amount of people I’ve slapped down with sources from there, they literally go off with their tails between their legs never to be seen again

3040 ▶▶ Mimi, replying to Mark, 1, #288 of 291 🔗

I visit that one daily too, in the hopes of finding more science. Today’s update is especially damning, and doesn’t even mention the super-manipulative stuff in the SAGE report from back in March.

3032 ChrisH29, 1, #289 of 291 🔗

I was unable to read the newsletter of yesterday (5th) until this morning so apologies for the tardiness.

I have reached only the 5th paragraph and feel I have to take issue. You write,

“…the ONS’s definition of deaths “involving COVID-19” is broader than the definition of deaths from COVID-19 that’s used by the Department for Health and Social Care (DHSC) and released by the Government each day. The DHSC data for England and Wales now includes deaths in the community, nut just in hospitals, but the DHSC only includes those deaths where the person in question tested positive for the virus.”

I feel that you are slightly misrepresenting the facts in that you imply in the bold section that the DHSC data are the deaths of those who have died FROM the disease, this is patently not the case. They are deaths where there was a positive diagnosis of the presence of the virus, it does not mean that Covid was the major cause of death. The signifiant difference in the two data sets is that to be included in the ONS data, as per U07.2, the patient only needs to be suspected of having been infected. In neither case does the virus need to be a significant contributor to the death. I understand that this might be considered pedantic but it is quite a significant point if one wishes to compare the toll against those of previous year flu casualties, where suspicion or even testing positive would not be mentioned as COD unless it was considered a significant factor.

I appreciate that you went on further in the article to clarify the position, I just thought it worth underlining, so to speak, for your readers.

3042 Mark, 5, #290 of 291 🔗

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52557297?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world&link_location=live-reporting-story

“A hair salon owner in Texas has been jailed for a week for staying open despite coronavirus restrictions that have shut all non-essential businesses.

Shelley Luther, owner of Salon à la Mode in Dallas, appeared in court on Tuesday after defying a cease-and-desist letter and a restraining order.

The judge said she could avoid jail if she apologised for being selfish, shut the salon and paid a fine.

But Luther refused, saying “feeding my kids is not selfish”.

She would only have needed to close the salon until Friday, because the state plans to allow them to reopen then.

Luther was fined $7,000 (£5,652) and warned that she would be fined a further $500 a day from now until Friday if the business continued to remain open.

Judge Eric Moyé told Luther: “The rule of law governs us. People cannot take it upon themselves to determine what they will and will not do.””

Well, it’s not my country and so not really any of my business, but as a distant observer I’ll be most disappointed in Texans if they’re so limp-wristed these days that this woman isn’t hugely compensated for this mistreatment, and rather surprised if the judge doesn’t regret his action before too long.

3043 Gracie Knoll, 1, #291 of 291 🔗

I will flag this one up because it is beautiful:

Charles Eisenstein’s stunning, powerful, deeply moving, and ultimately inspirational essay about this crisis: “THE CORONATION”.

I will link to both written essay and audio version:

https://charleseisenstein.org/essays/the-coronation/

https://youtu.be/wTISp3I2r5g

Let me add……..

Since this crisis started, a whole series of dominoes has been falling in my mind, almost daily. This time is, I believe, an extraordinary turning-point for humanity, and if we can navigate our way through it without the would-be tyrants succeeding with their power grab, we may emerge with an entirely new (and massively saner) vision for ourselves and our planet.

Here’s one “domino”:

The trigger for the crisis was a DISEASE from CHINA

The CHINESE pictogram for “DISEASE” translates literally into English as “DANGEROUS OPPORTUNITY”.

I’ve been telling my ‘chronic pain’ physio clients this for years. “Mrs. Bloggs, the Chinese word for ‘disease’ means ‘dangerous opportunity’. The ancient Chinese were clever people, they knew that an illness is often an opportunity to fix the things that caused it in the first place.”

Now, suddenly, (and uniquely) we are in a time of global DANGER. But it is also an unprecedented OPPORTUNITY for the whole of humanity to come together and understand the causes of our diseased society, and the diseased worldviews that have helped to create it.

If nothing more, humanity will have learned the priceless value of a hug.

(I’ll post some more thoughts on this from time to time. The moderator is free to kick me off if I’m getting too metaphysical!)

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247BecJT7, 6, 12, 3, 9, 19, 10, 3, 6, 3, 9, 1, 2, 2, 9, 7, 4, 12, 8, 18, 10, 23, 13, 8, 12, 4, 1, 6, 7, 9, 2, 1, 1
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