Last updated2020-05-11T17:49:00



5593 ▶▶ Beacritical, replying to AnotherSceptic, 46, #2 of 616 🔗

“It is clear that the only feasible long-term solution lies with a vaccine or drug-based treatment…”

Whatever happened to promoting fresh air, sunshine, healthy eating, regular sleep, exercise etc… Even the Romans knew this…

5600 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Beacritical, 11, #3 of 616 🔗

BigPharma, that’s what.

5613 ▶▶▶▶ Beacritical, replying to kh1485, 3, #4 of 616 🔗

I know 🙁

5764 ▶▶▶▶ common sense is dead, replying to kh1485, 12, #5 of 616 🔗

Yes. I’m afraid it’s more than just Big Pharma though. Take for instance, Celebrity Science. Much of the “public” is unaware that this phenomenon has become pervasive in the academic community (to the detriment of scientists of integrity, which is another reason to shed light on its existence). Common sense tells you that scientists, being fallible humans like the rest of us) have the same desire to achieve fame, fortune, and esteem as the rest of us, and some will seek these things out to the detriment of their profession as a whole.

I’m sure many of you have seen the graph by Dr. Mark Lipstitch (Harvard) that tries to make the case for intermittent lockdowns well into 2022. What the media, who is glorifying Dr. Lipstitch, won’t tell you is that he was one of many at Harvard receiving funding from a gentleman named Jeffrey Epstein, who among other horrors also had a plan to “sow” the world with his genetic “seed”. Much of the evidence of their relationship has been carefully scrubbed from the internet, so unfortunately I can only give you evidence of the connections at this time. I currently have a friend doing some deep digging.

Excerpts from a Times of Israel article that lays out Epstein’s connections to both MIT’s Media Lab and Harvard Medical School:

“The former director of MIT’s famed Media Lab, Joi Ito, resigned last year amid uproar over his ties to Epstein. He issued a public apology and vowed to raise money for victims of trafficking.”
“Although his gifts were blocked after 2008, the report found that Harvard accepted $736,000 between his arrest and conviction. Most went to Harvard’s medical school, while $150,000 went to its Faculty of Arts and Sciences.”

As we know, Lipstitch is a researcher at Harvard TH Chan (the school of public health). There is little to distinguish a researcher at Chan from a researcher at the School of Medicine. It is rare for a researcher at one to NOT collaborate with a researcher from the other. I know, I worked at Chan. He is also associated with MIT’s Media Lab (shocking, huh? haha).

Meet the Moralist Policing Gene Drives, a Technology That …www.technologyreview.com › 2016/06/07 › meet-the-…
Jun 7, 2016 – Kevin Esvelt, professor at MIT’s Media Lab. “He has led the movement to shine the spotlight,” says Marc Lipsitch, an epidemiologist at Harvard …

In fact, Lipstitch goes out of his way to decry this Celebrity Science on his Twitter feed. In reaction to a Sept 2019 article in the Atlantic on Epstein and ‘Sugar Daddy Science’, Lipstitch writes: “Pretty compelling article on the root causes of science dysfunction”.

Me thinks he doth protest too much.

Our current policies are being driven, in part, by practitioners of ‘Sugar Daddy Science’, and ‘Celebrity Science’, who have gone out of their way to disassociate themselves from these phenomena.

People such as Mark Lipstitch are more than welcome to stay inside, doing what their ‘Sugar Daddy Science” tells them to do (although maybe someone should be checking in on him from time to time as they failed to do with his buddy Epstein). However, we should be concerned about his motivations for keeping the rest of us there.

Sorry about the long post.

5819 ▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to common sense is dead, 2, #6 of 616 🔗

I’m grateful that you’ve taken the time to respond.

5611 ▶▶▶ Gracie Knoll, replying to Beacritical, 43, #7 of 616 🔗

Big Pharma propaganda masquerading as medical science. Where the hell are all our doctors who should be challenging this?

Natural herd immunity. Vitamin D. Healthy diet (low sugar and carb, high healthy fat.) Sunshine. Sleep. Exercise. Even Neanderthal Man knew this..

If the Pharma boys have to be involved, they can sell us their cheap off label drugs that are already making a difference. Or a new PROPERLY TESTED oral drug that can be used as needed and not forced on an entire population at virtual gunpoint.

And don’t get me started on “Professor Bill Gates’ Magic “Final Solution” Vaccine Tonic”……modern day snake oil salesman, only about 1% as ethical and 100% more creepy.

Disgusting statement by our Govt but we know who lines their pockets.

Sorry, but I’m in a seriously bad mood today. Lockdown is having the same effect on many.

5642 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Gracie Knoll, 6, #8 of 616 🔗

Where are the doctors who should be challenging this? Check out Dr Malcolm Kendrick’s blog.

5657 ▶▶▶▶ Beacritical, replying to Gracie Knoll, 14, #9 of 616 🔗

I’m in a horrible mood too, doubt you need to apologise for that here.

5615 ▶▶▶ Paul B, replying to Beacritical, 13, #10 of 616 🔗

Had any dealing with the NHS in the last 20 years? ‘Take these pills, puff on this’ but it says here that suicide, failed organs and death are potential side effects!? ‘Why are you being argumentative, I’m a Dr don’t you know!?’ Fresh air, sunshine and healthy eating are on the whole free, I’m amazed now that I think about it why they actually push expensive, dangerous drugs first, guess they have to justify their existence somehow.

5625 ▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Paul B, 15, #11 of 616 🔗

Oh god, don’t I just know about that. I am beyond angry that they may be foisting their wretched vaccines on us. And what terrifies me (sorry to bang on about this but it’s personal) is will getting out of lockdown be dependent on having to submit to the vaccine?

5857 ▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to kh1485, 1, #12 of 616 🔗

And the really galling thing about that is that they form a pretty substantial part of insitutional pension funds (an industry I used to work in). So, my antipathy is further complicated by the fact that I (along with many, many others) will be the beneficiary (if that’s the right word) of that “bonanza” (that’s assuming that the collapse of other major industries in which they are invested doesn’t decimate the remaining value of those pension funds).

5756 ▶▶▶▶ IanE, replying to Paul B, 5, #13 of 616 🔗

Well, I would just comment that sometimes their drugs do help. I developed arthritis rather suddenly (and badly) 3 years ago. I was in fact starting to wonder if Dignitas might have a solution (luckily I’m happily married and I wouldn’t actually do such whilst my wife was alive): after a few weeks with various specialists, tests etc they tried out several drugs and, I have to say that I will indeed ‘drink a drink a drink to Lily the Pink’. I have to be a bit careful not to do too much heavy exercise, but I’m pretty much back to normal [in so far as anyone or anything is normal following Boris’s Chamberlain act!].

5780 ▶▶▶▶▶ Gracie Knoll, replying to IanE, 15, #14 of 616 🔗

There’s no doubt that drugs can and do help in the right circumstances, when they are the best option and in some situations, they can be lifesaving. However in the majority of health problems they are either NOT the best solution – and indeed may be the worst – or they are only a partial answer and other things should be given equal, if not more, prominence.

As an example, early in my career as a physio I saw a lady with rheumatoid arthritis who had been on HUGE doses of steroids for 5 years; they just slightly took the edge off her pain.

I suggested she try cutting all the pro-inflammatory foods from her diet and wrote everything down for her. She was completely out of pain in five days. Two weeks later her lifelong asthma had disappeared.

I’ve had many others like her where simple treatments were vastly more effective than years of drugs. Think about it: cause and effect. Your arthritis was unlikely to have been caused by a drug deficiency!

5798 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ IanE, replying to Gracie Knoll, #15 of 616 🔗

She was lucky – and yes they did also try a range of non-medicinal approaches before escalating. My arthritis is almost certainly genetic on my mother’s side. I’m surprised that they kept her on steroids, they very briefly put me on a low dose to relieve the pain and dramatic oedema, but then went to much less risky alternatives.

5843 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Gracie Knoll, replying to IanE, 7, #16 of 616 🔗

The case in question was at the start of my career, 30 years ago. The lady was on a sustained and huge dose of steroids that would be considered malpractice today; she had a well developed “moon face” and “buffalo hump”.

It was her spectacular remission that woke me up to the limitations of drugs, and to questioning the rationale behind prescribing them. R.A. is an autoimmune disease; our immune systems have not evolved to try to kill us so something must be buggering up the function of the aforesaid system. In some cases this might be genetic (although I suspect that the word “genetic” is a codeword, like “idiopathic” or “essential”, that means “we haven’t got a clue”) but in my experience it’s often lifestyle and its effect on the gut microbiome, mitochondrial function and systemic inflammation.

(In any case, as Dr. Bruce Lipton has said, epigenetics trumps genetics, and epigenetics is controlled by the patient’s environment and lifestyle.)

She has not been my only “lucky” client by a long chalk. OTOH others have, like yourself, had great relief from medication and haven’t had much in the way of side effects, especially if it was a short-term course of drugs which allowed the immune system a chance to re-set itself.

If a client is happy and well on medication I definitely don’t want to interfere, but if they’re struggling and the medics have effectively given up on the case, then I’ll offer what advice I can.

5847 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Gracie Knoll, replying to Gracie Knoll, 5, #17 of 616 🔗

Addendum: The comment about our immune systems not having evolved to kill us, but can potentially kill us if something buggers them up, is of course applicable to the current crisis.

Most Covid deaths result from the cytokine storm – a hyped-up immune system over reacting and producing massive levels of inflammation. What’s becoming clear in this crisis is that LIFESTYLE factors such as obesity and low vitamin D levels, have a huge ability to bugger up normal immune function.

5958 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ chris c, replying to Gracie Knoll, 4, #18 of 616 🔗

There are times when drugs are helpful or even necessary, but the majority of them are antidotes to the high carb low fat diet, which wrecks your health but is profitable and needs chasing with some of the most profitable drugs.

Excellent talk here by Ron Rosedale and Ivor Cummins


I absolutely concur, my immune system was crap for most of my life, but for the last fifteen years I have hardly caught anything. Today I fed my mitochondria with a giant rump steak and buttered asparagus, yesterday was liver and bacon with a giant mushroom and broccoli, then there was prawns and cashew nuts with multicoloured peppers and chillies and garlic fried in coconut oil. They seem to like that sort of thing. Oh and I spend time in the sun and eat grass-fed butter, cheese and fish so I’m good for vitamin D. And I mostly avoid wheat, soy and industrially produced omega 6 seed oils.

I wish I’d discovered this sixty years ago.

6039 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to chris c, #19 of 616 🔗

Couldn’t agree more. The food giants get people hooked on their junk and then the pharmaceutical industry steps in to ‘appear’ to cure the resultant chronic illness. The scales initally fell from my eyes (after years of being misdiagnosed) by reading ‘Trick and Treat’ by Barry Groves. My main debt of gratitude however goes to John Yudkin, another brave scientist who was denigrated by his peers. But, oh boy, hasn’t he been proved right.

5812 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Gracie Knoll, 6, #20 of 616 🔗

I agree. I would far rather, as far as possible, look to modifying my way of life than taking medication. Years ago my doctor tried to prescribe me with statins. I didn’t like the sound of that so I looked into it and was hugely influenced by Dr Malcolm Kendrick (who is also getting plenty of mentions on the COVID issue). I made an informed decision, rejected the Ancel Keys theory and took repsonsibility for my own health. It works for me and I want that autonomy as far as *my* health is concerned which is why the thought of a Nurse Ratched type bearing down on me with a syringe full of god knows what fills me with horror.

6076 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Jane in France, replying to Gracie Knoll, 1, #21 of 616 🔗

I also cured asthma by taking vitamin D and going on a fairly paleo diet. You don’t even have to be particularly strict.

5805 ▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to IanE, 1, #22 of 616 🔗

I’m glad that your arthritis has been relieved by medication. I’m not dissing all drugs, in fact I was very grateful for a migraine tablet the other evening! My point is that BigPharma’s aim appears to be to get everyone on long-term medication (statins/anti-depressants etc.). Believe me, I know from personal experience that this kind of long-term dependence on medication sometimes has fatal consequences. Not only that but the practice of polypharmacy is very worrying.

5796 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to Beacritical, 6, #23 of 616 🔗

Quite – I seem to recall that SARS just died out, full stop.

5594 ▶▶ swedenborg, replying to AnotherSceptic, 7, #24 of 616 🔗

No haircut until 4th July probaly no problem for Boris

5597 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to swedenborg, 9, #25 of 616 🔗

My hair now needs its own workstation 🙁

5622 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to AnotherSceptic, 3, #26 of 616 🔗

I don’t think the roadmap is key, I think the socioeconomic discussion is (that’s my professional niche, I was quite impressed with it) is key. What that says to me, underneath the waffle, is ‘your move Labour’. See also Trevor Kavanagh (I know, I know) in the Currant Bun n.co.uk/news/11592292/trevor-kavanagh-lockdown-terrible-mistake/

5643 ▶▶▶ Cbird, replying to BecJT, #27 of 616 🔗

Link doesn’t work?

5734 ▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Cbird, 2, #28 of 616 🔗

Sorry, was rushing, try this thesun.co.uk/news/11592292/trevor-kavanagh-lockdown-terrible-mistake/

6013 ▶▶ Julian, replying to AnotherSceptic, 5, #29 of 616 🔗

Everybody in this country ought to be forced to read this document carefully and discuss it with others, including people whose points of view they do not currently share. The key points I take away from it are these: There are three phases. We are moving into Phase 2 – “Smarter controls”. Phase 3 is when we have an effective vaccine and/or treatment. Phase 2 is vague and will just be variations, more or less stringent, of what we have at present. There is a crystal clear statement that Phase 3 MAY NEVER BE REACHED, so we will carry on with Phase 2. That means FOREVER folks. There is almost no mention, for example, of any real intention to condone unfettered socialising outside of your household, other than MAYBE with one other selected household. Now, variations of Phase 2 will hopefully be minor or maybe less minor improvements on where we are now – BUT. It’s absolutely clear to me that the govt intends to continue to interfere in aspects of people’s and businesses’ private and public lives to keep COVID-19 death rate down to some kind of “acceptable” level for as long as Phase 2 lasts, which it admits could be forever. I think they want to find a way to run the country sustainably while keeping us all 2 metres apart, forever. This is the “new normal”. This is incredibly dangerous and could plunge us into a dystopian future for generations. It’s bad enough that the current “lockdown” has hardly been challenged, but it’s much much worse that this document is not ringing alarm bells with major public figures or with the mainstream media. The mentality it will cement into people’s minds will poison human life in this country.

5587 Mimi, replying to Mimi, 25, #30 of 616 🔗

Switzerland is accelerating its opening! https://www.thelocal.ch/20200429/bars-restaurants-and-schools-to-open-again-as-switzerland-relaxes-coronavirus-lockdown

Thank god for independent minded mountain isolationist nations!

My family had a lovely Mother’s Day lunch at a restaurant in Greenville, SC yesterday! Our server wore a mask, which was creepy, but otherwise it was just like any normal Sunday – beautiful weather, shade from the ginkgo tree on the patio, a bottle of Cava…. Happy families all around, with children and grandparents sitting CLOSE to one another!

Probably we’ll all die of COVID tomorrow, but it was so worth it.

5588 ▶▶ Beacritical, replying to Mimi, 10, #31 of 616 🔗

Careful haha, I’m from Switzerland and they like policing their citizens. They arrested a doctor and put him in a psych ward for being critical about the lockdown if I remember correctly. Their excuse was that he was a danger to his colleagues and family, which it has been revealed was not true. There are huge pharmaceutical interests at play there. That said, I’d rather be there right now as I enviously watch them open up swimming pools and gyms 🙁

Glad you and your family had a lovely day yesterday.

5640 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Beacritical, #32 of 616 🔗

A latter-day Semmelweis …

5727 ▶▶▶ Jane in France, replying to Beacritical, #33 of 616 🔗

I think it was a female doctor.

5863 ▶▶▶ T. Prince, replying to Beacritical, 1, #34 of 616 🔗

“They arrested a doctor and put him in a psych ward for being critical about the lockdown”

You’ll find it here


5616 ▶▶ RDawg, replying to Mimi, 8, #35 of 616 🔗

But you won’t die of, you’ll die “with” 😉

5676 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Mimi, 2, #36 of 616 🔗

Nice! No you won’t die of COVID – ensure you have a high functioning immune system

5604 Gracie Knoll, replying to Gracie Knoll, 26, #37 of 616 🔗

Guy de la Bedoyere’s comment sums everything up:

“We really are at a fork in the road. In one direction lies the complete end of everything we have ever held dear and a life literally not worth living, a mere spectral existence in a paralyzed and terrified surveillance state of agoraphobics queuing up like mendicant friars for government handouts. In the other lies some sort of chance to learn to live with the virus crisis and use self-determination to overcome it within the context of all the other challenges we face. For Boris Johnson the prospect is simple. He either becomes an undisguised totalitarian and goes the way of all such leaders, or he uses his consummate political skills to worm his and our way out of this mess while leaving his critics floundering in his wake.

I know which one I’m hoping for.”

(source: https://lockdownsceptics.org/britains-covid-reich/ )

5794 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Gracie Knoll, 2, #38 of 616 🔗

My suspicion is that he will go the disguised totalitarian route – using the sofa much as Bliar did!

6110 ▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to IanE, 1, #39 of 616 🔗

I’m not so sure that’s his instinct, any more than it is Trump’s. Whether he’s able to see through all the hysterical and overblown “scientific” predictions and group think is another matter.
I don’t see Boris as a totalitarian in waiting.

6267 ▶▶ Willow, replying to Gracie Knoll, 1, #40 of 616 🔗

I think that choice was made when Boris elected to place the nation under indefinite house arrest and to suspend democracy. I’m going to go further and say that this is a coup. Democracy has fallen. The constitutional monarchy has been mothballed. The government aren’t being incompetent or foolish, they are burning the economy because that’s the plan. The end of this road is dystopia. I’m sorry if that sounds dramatic. I no longer have any belief whatsoever that science, economics or plain common sense are going to shift policy. I fervently hope I’m wrong. I want to wake up and find it was a bad dream. The only hope I have now is for the judicial review. I would run. But there’s nowhere to go.

5606 RDawg, replying to RDawg, 60, #41 of 616 🔗

Sorry if this comes across as anti-left. I am of no political affiliation and certainly do not regard myself as right wing or left-wing, BUT Jeremy Corbyn has no idea about how an economy works and the importance of keeping it going in maintaining a higher standard or living and thus longer life expectancy. It’s not a case of lives vs economy and “private profit”. This is BS political spin. The economy IS lives.

Without the economy we have no employment. Without employment or a business to run, people have no income and people starve. Without taxes, we have no money to pay for public services like furloughing staff, social care, “our great NHS heroes”, police, fire service etc. It is the biggest fallacy of all that closing the economy is “protecting the NHS”. It is having the exact opposite effect. A lot of the hard left simply fail to grasp this concept. Their naivety and ignorance is shameful.

How can a man of supposedly high intelligence, not understand that a flourishing economy = flourishing way of life = better healthcare and living standards for all. He is all about political point scoring, without any thought or integrity in what he blurts out on his Twitter feed. Urrrrgh rant over.

And breathe.

5621 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to RDawg, 15, #42 of 616 🔗

Yes indeed. Jezza keeps confirming why I couldn’t vote for him (when he announced his pronouns was my comedy moment of the year). Boris is also currently confirming why I couldn’t vote for him either.

5627 ▶▶▶ RDawg, replying to Farinances, 31, #43 of 616 🔗

It’s the great illusion of democracy. We are given a choice of two very poorly run political parties, but neither are very good.

The Tory voters must be feeling pretty short-changed. They hoped for a libertarian Prime Minister who would be pro business. Instead they got a socialist de facto dictator.

5641 ▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to RDawg, 14, #44 of 616 🔗

Peter Hitchens has been saying this for years.

5631 ▶▶ Sceptic, replying to RDawg, 7, #45 of 616 🔗

It’s just the usual virtue signalling. Easy to do when you aren’t in charge.

5634 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to RDawg, 25, #46 of 616 🔗

Yep, and it is this moral cowardice, in fact rank dishonesty that has made me unfriend most of my lefty mates. What’s their big solution? Are they grappling with ANY of it, or just sniping about PPE and perspex screens at work? Plus it was a key plank of the Left’s material analysis that health and wealth are connected (this is why they bang on – rightly in my view, the data is unequivocal – about social and economic inequality). I’ve come to the view that middle class lefties are willing people to die, because it helps their ‘evil tories’ batshit, cult like thinking (and I’ve never voted Tory in my life). Honestly, I’m disgusted with the lot of them, it’s so disingenuous.

5666 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to BecJT, 2, #47 of 616 🔗

Misanthropy is an ever=present occupational hazard for dissidents.

5675 ▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Mark, 15, #48 of 616 🔗

I was discussing this with two friends today, we all say we feel we are being rebuilt from the ground up, everything I thought I believed is in flux, the people I thought were solid, are not, things I never thought I’d see people say, I have (e.g. I am no fan of our prime minister, I don’t wish the man dead (or anyone for that matter), lots of people really, really do, and weren’t embarrassed to say it!), just everything I thought was universally accepted as right, and not a point of disagreement, clearly is. I’m still reeling. I am generally a chirpy and easy going person, but this, good grief!

5836 ▶▶▶▶▶ Biker, replying to BecJT, #49 of 616 🔗

it’s sobering to realise that virtue is the vilest of human traits but once you realise you’re stronger for it.

6116 ▶▶▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to BecJT, 3, #50 of 616 🔗

Or to explain it another way, lockdown is what happens when you’re busy making other plans.
Ten years ago, I was still working, minding my own business as most people were, I hadn’t taken a holiday in years, and this year, finally retired, I was looking forward to a couple of weeks away, spreading my hard-earned cash around to other people in the process instead of leaving it to the State to waste when I finally fall off the perch, and here we all are instead, under near house arrest, foreign travel off the agenda for the foreseeable future, with the government and others exerting more control over us than has happened in 1000 years (1066 and the Norman invasion).

5791 ▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to BecJT, 2, #51 of 616 🔗

Full disclosure: I am (or was) one of those middle-class lefties and I’ve never felt anything like that at all.

5639 ▶▶ Morris_Day, replying to RDawg, 15, #52 of 616 🔗

The Cult of Corbyn is alive and miserable. Their continued complaining is dominant on my social media timeline (I used to run a music blog / label, so following lots of music bloggers etc).

Whenever I see billionaires and profits used as an argumenet, I ask the person where they shop, and when the answer is a supermarket (it always is), I tell them to quit their hypocrisy.

I then point them in the direction of the top Google return for SME’s, and ask them how long they think those jobs will last when the majority of them currently are operating on next to no income, and what that will mean to the Country.

‘SMEs account for 99.9% of the business population (5.9 million businesses). SMEs account for three fifths of the employment and around half of turnover in the UK private sector. Total employment in SMEs was 16.6 million (60% of the total), whilst turnover was estimated at £2.2 trillion (52%).

5716 ▶▶▶ ianric, replying to Morris_Day, 35, #53 of 616 🔗

If large numbers of small businesses go bust, the consequences will be disastrous. Small businesses are likely to contribute more to the local economy. For instance, independent restaurants use local accountants to do their accounts, local printers for their menus and local suppliers for their ingredients. If independent restaurants go bust, local businesses will be hit.

My area is heavily dependent on tourism and I can see how the closure of small businesses will affect the area. Most of the hotels in my area are independent hotels which unlike chain hotels are less likely to cope with being unable to operate. If large numbers of hotels, campsites and caravan parks go bust, this will reduce the supply of accommodation which prevents people coming to stay. Remaining hotels will have less competition which gives them the ability to put up prices.

Due to this stupid lockdown we are denied simple pleasures to eat out, go for a drink or get a haircut.

It is a disgrace perfectly healthy businesses are being destroyed.

5823 ▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to ianric, 7, #54 of 616 🔗

It’s not just small businesses that are in danger. I work and volunteer in the museums and heritage sector and the fallout from this will bring my sector its knees faster than any funding cuts and donation shortfall ever would. Small museums are already sounding the alarm of the continued existence of their sites.

What annoys me are colleagues who are obsessing about social distancing and PPE when the former is nigh on impossible while the latter will make us look unwelcoming and inappropriate. My heart sinks every time I read and hear people I know dismiss concerns about mental health and well being being the main casualty of what we’re experiencing now.

My sector will not recover for many years and I predict that permanent jobs already hard to come by even in the good times will be rarer than hen’s teeth and replaced by a plethora of temporary and/or zero hours contracts.

5891 ▶▶▶▶▶ ianric, replying to Bart Simpson, 1, #55 of 616 🔗

I was also wandering about the impact of the lockdown on attractions such as museum if they can’t receive income from visitors. Insecure employment will damage the economy as people on temporary contracts will not wish to spend money as they don’t have a regular income and there is less tax revenue as people in and out of work will not pay regular income tax in comparison with people in permanent jobs.

5991 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to ianric, 1, #56 of 616 🔗

The place I work depends on visitor revenue as we don’t receive any funding from the state and whilst we’ve been fortunate to have built up a nest egg over the years the prolonged lockdown will deplete that and we will spend the next few years trying to recoup that. The museums and heritage sector will struggle for a long time with regards to what you’ve stated above, generally people will be tightening their belts and unfortunately going to attractions will be a casualty of this belt tightening.

5963 ▶▶▶▶ chris c, replying to ianric, 3, #57 of 616 🔗

Not so many tourists and hotels here but otherwise much the same. Some of my food could walk here and much of the rest comes from not far away via local shops.

It’s the people like plumbers, electricians, builders, decorators, gardeners etc. who won’t be there after the lockdown ends (if it ever ends)

6469 ▶▶▶▶▶ ianric, replying to chris c, 1, #58 of 616 🔗

Some sectors of the economy are dominated by small businesse where there no big business to take over from if businesses go bust which will deprive people of access to services if businesses go bust. An example are barbers and hairdressers which are run by independent traders with normally just one shop and if these businesses go bust there isn’t a big national chain of hairdressers and barbers to take over their trade.

6149 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to ianric, 1, #59 of 616 🔗

Watch UK column and you will see that ‘the plan’ is for 50-60% of businesses to never open again https://21stcenturywire.com/2020/05/11/ukc-news-covid-lockdown-stop-light-system-evidence-of-govt-using-msm-for-psyops/

5663 ▶▶ Tim, replying to RDawg, 6, #60 of 616 🔗

Agreed. I have no political ideology, but I recognise that good Socialist works can only be paid for by a thriving economy. Corbyn doesn’t see that. I think he still believes in the Money Tree.

5682 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Tim, 3, #61 of 616 🔗

I think he knows full well the importance of the economy but is determined to retain the moniker of Comrade at whatever cost. Which is almost worse than if he was genuinely dim or naive. Especially when you take into account the betrayal of his own lifelong principles (anti-EU) at the drop of a hat. Is he cowardly or does he just want to be popular…. But only with the right sort of people?

When people say he enjoys being an activist not a politician I think they are by and large correct ….. Although of course he can behave politically in completely the wrong way at the wrong
time 😂

Anyway this is lockdown sceptics not Jezza sceptics but if their was a blog for that I’d be a member too…..

5679 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to RDawg, 9, #62 of 616 🔗

Agree a strong economy will save lives, no economy will result in many deaths and long term misery.

5703 ▶▶ Evoluon, replying to RDawg, -12, #63 of 616 🔗

RDawg, I dont think that you have much idea of how the economy works either. Taxes don`t pay for public services in the Uk or any other nation with its own sovereign currency. The tax money is destroyed when the government receives it. The treasury/Bank of England creates new money with computer keystrokes when it spends. I agree with you though that Corbyn is wrong about the lockdown, and that it is disasterous for the economy, but he is right about much else.

5720 ▶▶▶ Tarquin Von Starheim, replying to Evoluon, 5, #64 of 616 🔗

You what??? Can you explain this further please?

5748 ▶▶▶ RDawg, replying to Evoluon, 9, #65 of 616 🔗

Evoluon, if you don’t believe that our taxes pay for our public services, I can’t help you. If you’re referring to the printing of money or “quantitative easing” as it is otherwise known, this happens when there is not enough money in the supply chain. It’s an artificial attempt to boost a struggling economy. The big problem however is it leads to mass inflation, so the domestic currency effectively loses its buying power and it erodes the value of savings and investments. Perhaps the greatest example (and most harrowing) of this is what happened in Zimbabwe under Mugabe. Google it. It will be an education for you.

With all this free time in lockdown, I recommend you purchase a copy of this book:


5845 ▶▶▶▶ Evoluon, replying to RDawg, -3, #66 of 616 🔗

RDawg – I won t require your reading suggestion "economics for dummies", thanks . Like many people you have completely swallowed the traditional economic myths around money creation, taxation and the public debt. The main function of taxes in a modern sovereign economy is to ensure, firstly, that taxation gets people in the country to use the government-issued currency. Because they have to pay income taxes in pounds the British have a reason to earn pounds, spend pounds, and otherwise use pounds as opposed to, say, bitcoins or euros. Second, taxes are one tool governments can use to control inflation. They take money out of the economy, which keeps people from bidding up prices. Thirdly, taxes can be used to encourage other government policy goals - e.g. equality, or for public health reasons, such as alcohol or cigarette duties. As regards money creation, I dont mean quantative easing, which is actually pretty ineffective. Im talking about any goverment expenditure. Whenever the government spends it pushes money into the economy. A government with its own soverign currency can never run out of money. It doesnt have to borrow. The only constraint on its spending is inflation, or its own ideolical stance on the size of the public sector . Logically the spending has to come before the taxation. Im afraid, RDawg, that you may have to undergo a paradigm shift. I suggest you buy this book "Macroeconomics" by Randall Wary, Bill Mitchell and Martin Watts. It will be an education for you. The usual tired-old cliches about Zimbawe and the Weimar republic hyperinflations are dealt with in this book. The situation in those two countries which suffered from very specfic resource constraints are in no way related to the normal process of money creation and taxation within today s UK economy.

5971 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Evoluon, replying to RDawg, -5, #68 of 616 🔗

As i said before logically the spending must come before the taxation. The government may argue in their documentation that there is a link between taxation and spending but in fact whenever the government spends it does not use your taxes. Instead it tells the Bank of England to make payments for it. In effect, it borrows. That is why we’ve had a UK government debt since 1694. Literally, the Bank of England creates the money the government spends, which is a process that doesn’t involve a printing press. All the Bank does is some double entry bookkeeping. It debits the government’s loan account with the amount to be spent, and it credits the government’s current account. And the government then spends the money, just as anyone can when they have a current account in credit. And then what HMRC do is pay whatever they collect into the Treasury loan account at the Bank of England to help clear it. The leftover balance in that loan account is then cleared by the issue of bonds (or gilts) or quantitative easing funding.

the relationship can be formally summarised as:

G = T + ∆B + ∆M


G = Government spending

T = Net tax receipts

B = Borrowing (and so ∆B is the change in borrowing in a period)

M = Government created money (and so ∆M is the change in that sum during a period).

There is then no direct relationship at all between government spending and tax, which is exactly what HMRC have now confirmed in a recent FOI request. All they do is help clear the Treasury loan account at the Bank of England, just as government borrowing and quantitative easing funding do as well.

But what that means is that the next time the government say they are spending taxpayers’ money you know that’s not true because there is, quite literally, no way they can say that given the economic reality of what is going on. They’re always spending the Bank of England’s money, which is then cleared by taxes,

6051 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ SteveB, replying to Evoluon, #69 of 616 🔗

Ok, MMT is very trendy, to my mind that’s just semantics.

Do you accept that if the government increases spending and then doesn’t increase taxation or find some other way of extracting money back out of the economy, then that leads to inflation?

And do you accept that inflation is, on balance, a Bad Thing?

6113 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to RDawg, 2, #70 of 616 🔗

At least his brother seems to understand this.


And thinks the climate change agenda is a scam.

5607 John Ballard, replying to John Ballard, 26, #71 of 616 🔗

Another great feature Toby. I agree with the chap that you mention and having to be careful to express any other views on FB, although I do copy the link to this site on a regular basis as I don’t care if people do not like it. I am amazed by how the vast majority have just sucked up lock down, but I also believe there are a large silent minority that think its plain crazy.
You make a good point re. antibody testing, weeks ago there were articles written about millions already having had it with no symptoms. Was that then true, but the Government does not want anyone mentioning that uncomfortable truth? Or untrue and the Government has decided to not let let anyone know? Or we are still as clueless now as we were weeks ago as the Government hasn’t bothered to find out?
How hard would it be to test a few hundred thousand in London to check who has and hasn’t had it and work out a percentage? Surely that is possible and it would sort out the crazy differences in mortality rates?
I live in Cornwall and yesterday the local radio station news was saying that there are fewer deaths in 2020 than in 2019 YTD. I haven’t checked the ONS but presume they will be correct. BUT…..I still cannot go out properly, I have all the same restrictions as if I was in London. The local hospital is not inundated either. Same as most of the country I imagine.
Like most people I do what the Government have asked. Do I agree with it Nationwide, no. Do I think its OTT across the whole country, yes. Surely in parts of the country not badly affected you could get your hair cut or buy a pasty !
I voted for Boris as the alternative was truly terrible, but I think like a lot of people he is becoming what we expected……the best of two pretty bad choices.

5638 ▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to John Ballard, 15, #72 of 616 🔗

Facebook and other social media have wiped out debate. If you don’t agree with someone’s thread you are a pariah (at best). I mentioned on yesterday’s blog that kids of my friends have gone apoplectic about the ever-so-slight lifting of ‘regulations’. I despair of their collective intelligence. They don’t seem to know how an economy functions. I’ve had my hand bitten by the Left and I don’t care (was once part of the machinery) but I sympathise with the bloke from Bexhill. Tell him (it was a ‘he’ wasn’t it?) I’m just down the road in Eastbourne and there’s no resistance here either.

5946 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 2, #73 of 616 🔗

Fb is full of lockdownistas, post your indignation at your peril! Somebody mentioned that 1 to 1 us best and get presto, what are we allowed to do? Visit people 1 to 1…

Spread the truth virus…

6160 ▶▶▶▶ Carlo, replying to ianp, #74 of 616 🔗

So true I have been attacked many times.

5742 ▶▶ guy153, replying to John Ballard, 15, #75 of 616 🔗

If the antibody tests confirmed the doom narrative they would have published them.

They’re not publishing them so they can “manage” our descent from phobia with infantile dials and traffic lights and things and give themselves the credit for their great victory in the war against the virus.

5912 ▶▶▶ Jeff, replying to guy153, 1, #76 of 616 🔗

So which truth is hiding the anti-body tests trying to cover up:
A) that we’ve almost all had it, and mostly recovered, because this would manage to panic the zealots even if they realised themselves immune “it was disguting” they’d say “subjecting us to herd immunity”
B) that nearly nobody has had it and therefore the zealots can panic about what will happen when they get it, as if anti-body rates are low most people won’t have had it yet “doom is still to come” they’ll say

I hope its covering up A, but don’t really think that a government would try to cover up that scenario?

5954 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Jeff, 3, #77 of 616 🔗

It’s A. Well not ‘almost all’ maybe but a good proportion- enough to take the IFR through the floor and make a mockery of the whole shitshow. The R value. The lockdown. The polciing by consent. The food stockpiling. The facemasks. The slogans. The fear-mongering. The PPE clamouring. The ventilator bartering. The ONS. The ICL. PHE. All of it.

5608 Maud Boggins, replying to Maud Boggins, 14, #78 of 616 🔗

Antibody tests ….. coming to a Boots near you soon wasn’t it?

This is the last thing the government wants made available and it will clearly show what a sham this whole debacle is and just how few people are dying.

Around 15% of people they tested have it presently, if you extrapolate out it’s likely another 15-25% will have had it historically so we’re potentially looking at 20 million people. Given deaths have been misrecorded to an unbelievable level it is probably safe to say only 20,000 people have died from it and even that’s dubious. The death rate is therefore infinitesimal.

The government need to be held to account for this and called out. You simply cannot know the danger of something unless you do random tests to see how dangerous it actually is. At present we’re guessing, driven by crummy Daily Mail reports “90,000 cases : 20,000 deaths” or whatever hysteria and nonsense they peddle.

We need to test like exit polls at elections, 10,000 people in varying locations country and urban, all ages and races: a cross section. This will pretty much tell us the final result for the entire population but at the moment we’re flying blind.

Here’s a private company if anyone wants to know if they’ve had it.


Hers the Telegraph article about the tests:


5637 ▶▶ Sceptic, replying to Maud Boggins, 8, #79 of 616 🔗

We should all have the tests and if positive tell anyone who will listen ‘I’m acting in the belief that I am immune’

5652 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Maud Boggins, 1, #80 of 616 🔗

But the tests are unreliable and don’t prove anything, so what’s the point?

5659 ▶▶▶ Sceptic, replying to Cheezilla, 5, #81 of 616 🔗

Abbott are saying:

“This test has proven to be 100% sensitive in identifying antibodies to SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus at 14 days after onset of covid-19 symptoms. Or put another way, everyone who had an illness that was confirmed to be caused by covid-19 developed IgG antibodies 14 days later so there were no false negatives.”

5698 ▶▶ ianp, replying to Maud Boggins, 1, #82 of 616 🔗

Honestly, the government is on our side. They will take flak for sure, but when the rest of the world is pursuing this daft strategy, what were they meant to do?

The MSM media has been responsible. Hold them to account

Then educate the sheep

5914 ▶▶▶ Jeff, replying to ianp, 2, #83 of 616 🔗

The MSM have been extremely guilty, but that doesn’t imply that the government is necessarily innocent.

6276 ▶▶▶ Willow, replying to ianp, #84 of 616 🔗

I’m sorry but that isn’t true. The government consulted with behavioural scientists to create the conditions for mass hysteria. It was deliberate psychological warfare in which the media were employed as instruments.
This video explains it
But you can see for yourself. The document was released into the public domain as a result of the JR

5825 ▶▶ Thunderchild, replying to Maud Boggins, 5, #85 of 616 🔗

I found only one mention of antibody tests in the whole of the government’s roadmap, on page 38. Would seem to indicate how keen they are on the holy grail of a vaccine and how little they care about the development of natural (and cheaper) widespread immunity.

5612 Bob, replying to Bob, 5, #86 of 616 🔗

Just posting again from yesterday’s comments:

This is a very interesting UK-based discussion on how the death rate spike could be inflated.

5706 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Bob, 2, #87 of 616 🔗

Thanks for posting this. I missed it yesterday. Brilliant discussion and good to get a proper eyewitness report from a hospital worker. Well worth a listen (try 1.5 speed).

5762 ▶▶ Sceptic, replying to Bob, 1, #88 of 616 🔗

This is great and lots of insights very helpful

5778 ▶▶ Mark Gobell, replying to Bob, 11, #89 of 616 🔗

Thank you Bob. Very useful discussion.

Excess deaths explained thus :

Excess deaths for care home residents can be explained by the denial of the usual life prolonging care normally received during their extended stays in hospitals. For care home patients, these stays have been cut short, for various reasons discussed in the video, including policy decisions not to treat and the encouragement of DNR statements. These elderly multi co-morbid patients, having “tested positive for covid-19” are then discharged back their care homes, where they inevitably die from their underlying causes, just as they would have in hospital under normal circumstances.

Note also that Section 14 of the Coronavirus Act 2020 : NHS Continuing Healthcare assessments: England, changed the requirements for carrying out assessments in respect of Continuing Healthcare to facilitate patients’ rapid discharge from hospital. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2020/7/part/1/crossheading/nhs-and-local-authority-care-and-support/enacted

See here : Coronavirus Act 2020 – Changes to NHS continuing healthcare and NHS funded nursing care. http://www.bevanbrittan.com/insights/articles/2020/coronavirus-act-2020-changes-to-nhs-continuing-healthcare-and-nhs-funded-nursing-care/

The point is made in the discussion that at some time in the future, there will be a corresponding reduction in overall morbidity in these age groups, from all causes, simply because these deaths had occurred earlier and have been characterised as CV-19. Although I agree logically with this, I suspect any such trend will be near impossible to detect at a later date.


5781 ▶▶▶ Mark Gobell, replying to Mark Gobell, #90 of 616 🔗

*reduction in overall mortality


5943 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Mark Gobell, 2, #91 of 616 🔗

Front loading the stats… Excerbating ‘the curve’. Smart move given this sadly a frustrating long game.. but we all know where it will lead. To the truth, sooner rather than later

The speed of this is up to us

5614 A Meshiea, replying to A Meshiea, 18, #92 of 616 🔗

Toby I hope you are right on your theory that the R will not go up.
Problematically I think the lockdown and primarily the closing of schools, has worked TOO well in dropping transmission amongst the healthy, and has been brilliant in infecting the vulnerable.
So I DO think the daily death rates will remain low barring some more care home transmissions, the infection rates should go way up.
The problem is is that the government is shifting the focus into infection rates rather than deaths as a basis for imposing more draconian economy destroying measures. So instead of celebrating our growing herd immunity, it will panic the cowering population into prolonging this travesty.

5617 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to A Meshiea, 10, #93 of 616 🔗

This too is my fear. Too much emphasis on testing the healthy or asymptomatic population and not enough on antibody testing – which means they WILL find more cases. They will effectively root them out, wherever they may be. Followed swiftly by ‘whoops!! More cases!!’ and the inevitable Lockdown Mk 2. Despite the fact most of these cases will be amongst the easily recoverable sections of society.

5630 ▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Farinances, 2, #94 of 616 🔗

Well if there’s a Lockdown Mk2 is there anyone courageous enough to do some calculations about how many will die as a result? Obviously more than the virus will see away which means, once again, there is very likely to be a hidden agenda.

5697 ▶▶ ianp, replying to A Meshiea, 3, #95 of 616 🔗

They have to state ‘cases’ because they are being forced to by MSM. Don’t bother with all that rubbish

5735 ▶▶ ianp, replying to A Meshiea, 3, #96 of 616 🔗

MSM is focusing on cases!!

Not the government!

5744 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to ianp, 3, #97 of 616 🔗

It doesn’t matter. Last time they bowed to media pressure – so they can bow to media pressure again.

5799 ▶▶ Mark Gobell, replying to A Meshiea, 1, #98 of 616 🔗

The probability of multiple lockups is written into the provisions Coronavirus Act 2020 whereby the lockup switch can simply be flipped on upon the Secretary of State’s designation of a “Transmission Control Period” ( TCP ).


TCP – not to be confused with the internet Transmission Control Protocol or the TCP antiseptic liquid, which, coincidentally, is used to kill pathogenic micro-organisms …


5618 Clarence Beeks, replying to Clarence Beeks, 20, #99 of 616 🔗

The antibody testing survey ….. Yes, I have today received through the post an “Invitation to participate in a Covid-19 testing research study!”

Apparently it’s random and involves agreeing to participate, receiving a test kit through the post, administering the test then, waiting for a courier to collect it, and off it goes to the lab. I will get the result of the test and the purpose is “help assess how much virus is circulating across the country including in people who do not have any symptoms”.

As it happens I’m in favour of this strategy and if it shows that infections are much higher than previously thought and therefore herd immunity is close or has been reached, then perhaps we can all escape from this slow-motion nightmare.

Only downside is that it is organised via …. Imperial College

5623 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Clarence Beeks, 13, #100 of 616 🔗


*reaches last two words*

5624 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Clarence Beeks, 1, #101 of 616 🔗

Where do you live, just out of interest?

5665 ▶▶▶ Clarence Beeks, replying to Farinances, 3, #102 of 616 🔗

Suffolk. It’s a swab test so it only tests for a current infection. I’ve not got, nor ever had, any symptoms so I will be interested to see the outcome. As far as I’m concerned the more people who have it without symptoms the better.

5673 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Clarence Beeks, 4, #103 of 616 🔗

The more people who have it asymptomatically – yes, the better.
The more people who have it who the gvt KNOW have it – not the better. 😉
A case is a case, asymptomatic or not, and will be added to the new case figures. The new case figures are what’s gonna be used to send us all back to house arrest.

5916 ▶▶▶▶▶ Jeff, replying to Farinances, 1, #104 of 616 🔗

On the other hand, the mroe people who know they’ve got (or with anti-bodies had) it, the better, the larger a mass of the population will see there is less to fear from the virus than from lockdowns.

5964 ▶▶▶▶▶ chris c, replying to Farinances, 1, #105 of 616 🔗

Suffolk has a pretty low incidence, though not as low as the south west. A strange place to test UNLESS as you say they want to jack up the numbers

6120 ▶▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to Clarence Beeks, #106 of 616 🔗

Clarence: Then I see no reason for them conducting this test. Selecting people at random to see who has an active infection is too narrow a survey. Of course, you can’t take your own blood sample to check for antibodies, but which would be far more useful,to see the spread in the population already.

5635 ▶▶ GLT, replying to Clarence Beeks, 3, #107 of 616 🔗

This doesn’t sound like the antibody study that they promised from Porten Down. I think that is from blood samples. I think you are participating in a separate study to find out how many in a random sample test positive for current infection at any given time. High results possibly more likely to precipitate more lockdown as indicative of high infection rates but who knows given the lack of any coherence! High results with no symptoms might also give a better idea of proportion of asymptomatic cases in overall infections.

5645 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to GLT, 3, #108 of 616 🔗

Yup. Might be better to not actually do the test. As far as I’m concerned the LESS active cases they know about at this stage the better.

I’d do an antibody test tomorrow though.

5696 ▶▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Farinances, 3, #109 of 616 🔗

Don’t bother. This testing nonsense and statistics just prolongs the inevitable path to the truth

5723 ▶▶▶ Bob, replying to GLT, 6, #110 of 616 🔗

Yes, it’s the antibody test that indicates that you have already had the virus and have immunity, whereas the other test (based on PCR) just indicates whether or not you have the viral RNA in your body at the time of the test (false positives not withstanding).

If reliable antibody tests were done on a large scale in the UK the results would very quickly show what level of herd immunity is already present. Given that the virus may have been circulating earlier than previously thought this year then the antibody test might reveal that the majority of people have immunity. Lockdown over!

5728 ▶▶▶▶ Bob, replying to Bob, #111 of 616 🔗

Maybe I’ll get a box set of these for friends and family that I’ve been having heated discussions with:


5753 ▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Bob, 1, #112 of 616 🔗

Probably not the majority, but enough for herd immunity. I would estimate around 50% are immune in London and one or two other urban areas and about 20% to 30% in most other places, and that this is enough.

5767 ▶▶ coalencanth12, replying to Clarence Beeks, 1, #113 of 616 🔗

I think a few academic research groups are running their own surveys of immunity which will feed into the overall picture – I know Oxford was running one as well. I would encourage participation to anyone on the forum, and I would put good money that the cretin Ferguson won’t be directly involved, his group don’t have these kind of skills

6155 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Clarence Beeks, 2, #114 of 616 🔗

If it does not involve anyone coming to your house, you could always do like the President of Tanzania and send in a swab from a fruit or similar! They got positive tests from a pawpaw and a goat…
Could be funny if the test showed antibodies 😉

5644 Cheezilla, replying to Cheezilla, 15, #115 of 616 🔗

I enjoyed this translation of Boris’ speech. It’s from a comment in the Grad this morning:
Current COVID-19 guidance on GOV.UK:

Stay alert

We can all help control the virus if we all stay alert. This means you must:

– Stay at home as much as possible – unless you have to go out, in which case you can go out.
– Work from home if you can – unless you can’t work from home, in which case you must go to work, unless you can’t go to work without using public transport, in which case you must cycle, unless it’s too far, in which case stay at home, but stay alert.
– Limit contact with other people – unless you have to come into contact other people, in which case you can come into contact with other people provided you keep 2 metres away from them, unless your work environment makes it impossible to keep 2 metres apart, in which case try not to breathe.
– Keep your distance if you go out (2 metres apart where possible) – unless you have to go out, and can’t keep 2 metres apart from others, in which case you can go out, just stay as far apart from others as you can, whilst trying not to breathe.
– Wash your hands regularly – unless you have to go out, in which case you can go out, but wash your hands whenever you can.
– Self-isolate if you or anyone in your household has symptoms – unless you have to go out, in which case you can go out, but wash your hands whenever you can, and try and keep 2 metres apart from the hand basin.

[NB. Not to be published or issued in any other format to the general public until this has been signed off by the Prime Minister of England, since this doesn’t seem to make sense to anyone in this Department]

5685 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Cheezilla, 2, #116 of 616 🔗

So true

5918 ▶▶ Kelly, replying to Cheezilla, 1, #117 of 616 🔗

That sounds a petty sane strategy to me, perhaps we should have been doing that from the start not all this lockdown lunacy.

5924 ▶▶ Montag Smith, replying to Cheezilla, 4, #118 of 616 🔗

I get the impression that the govt want social distancing to fizzle out without officially saying so. Do they really expect everyone to read their guidance?!

5648 ianp, replying to ianp, 16, #119 of 616 🔗

I keep on saying this and will say it again. There was nothing in government guidelines about compulsory mask wearing. Masks = Fear

This is now a Fear virus.

Everything else is obfuscation to keep people in their fear coma.

The tide is turning. Eventually we will see scientifically accredited information that states that masks are harmful. There’s plenty out there. They should only be used by front line carers and medical staff. MSM will be forced to publish it if you make them do it

I absolutely believe Boris is on our side, and I was never a big fan of his before trust me!

If you want your freedom, take it now.

No mask. No Fear

5668 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to ianp, 12, #120 of 616 🔗

You’re right – the mask is the number one symbol that you’re a believer AKA a bedwetter. Hence I will never wear one.
(I do actually think they’ll probably help you not to infect others if you’re ill but…. If you’re I’ll you shouldn’t be outside at all, no?)

5692 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Farinances, 8, #121 of 616 🔗

Forget it, don’t even pander to that insidious thought, the real virus has gone. You’ve probably already had it. Herd immunity has been achieved

5802 ▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Farinances, 3, #122 of 616 🔗

Apparently (I’ve lifted this from some medical website) ‘cloth masks, bandanas, or handkerchiefs will do very little to stop the spread of coronavirus. In fact, they may actually increase your risk of becoming ill from corona and other influenza-like illnesses. A 2015 study found cloth masks, when compared to surgical masks, increase the rate of influenza-like illnesses 13x! Cloth masks are probably best avoided and should not be reused without properly sanitizing them.’

5937 ▶▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 2, #123 of 616 🔗

Nigel… Yeah known that all along 🙂

That will come out in MSM pretty soon. Our own actions will determine how soon!

5839 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Farinances, 3, #124 of 616 🔗

I like masks – it helps to avoid talking to the wrong people. 🙂

6122 ▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to Farinances, #125 of 616 🔗

If you’re ill with CV19, you won’t be out of bed or off the sofa until you’re no longer infectious in most cases.

5815 ▶▶ Amy, replying to ianp, 14, #126 of 616 🔗

I live in a tiny town on the edge of the wilderness in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, quite close to Canada.

Today I was out and about on this lovely (though intermittently snowy) spring day. I went to the dry cleaners, the garden store, the tire store to order 2 new tires, and Walmart. Right now a landscaping crew is working on our yard and they’re in and out of the house drinking coffee.

All day I only saw masks on the kids bringing out the groceries to the cars at the Walmart grocery pickup and I assume that’s because of a corporate decision. Nobody else in the small businesses I frequented wore masks and when I asked the dry cleaner about it she looked at me like I was an idiot.

My little town leans heavily libertarian, and we’re quite a way from our state capital, so I suppose we’ve all just decided to get on with life. Very sensible people here, most Cornish or from Finland.

5868 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Amy, 4, #127 of 616 🔗

Sounds kinda like heaven.

5980 ▶▶▶ OpenCorona, replying to Amy, #128 of 616 🔗

we live not far away in Minnesota, 10mi inland from Lake Superior. Our remote community is, well, maybe not as libertarian leaning as yours, based on some noise I’ve received from neighbors on some of my online comments. I love the area but need to remember all are not like-minded. With stoic Scandinavian families who have been there for generations, one would expect the same as what you found. I really don’t think we’ll have trouble there without masks, but we shall see. I am ready to justify with a “medical exception” (which they won’t be able to legally inquire about due to ADA/HIPAA privacy law).

5658 Dave #KBF, replying to Dave #KBF, 19, #129 of 616 🔗

Just been shopping at the “supermarket”, not been for about 10 days. It the the Morereasons flavour of outlet.

Trolley wiping still happening, we (I know two of us going shopping, together, we are rebels) one bloke walked in without a trolley, intending to get a hand basket, staff gave him a bit of paper towel with some concoction on in to clean the handles of his basket. Paper towel already looked well used when passed to this shopper. Walked past him while he was trying to clean the basket, he looked lost with his bit of paper towel, what are the authorities doing to these people.

Only two shoppers wearing masks, one was a surgical mask, the other a black cloth affair. Staff seem to be pushing the distancing theme, shoppers did not seem overly concerned, apart from the aforementioned two. One bloke down the ale & cider isle seemed a little jumpy, but loaded his trolley with alcohol, so that should kill any bugs or help him forget his concerns.

We need a button badge so we know who is sceptical & who needs more help. I would love to be able to have a face to face chat with other sceptics.


5704 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to Dave #KBF, 7, #130 of 616 🔗

A badge would be a great idea …

5714 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to kh1485, 4, #131 of 616 🔗

Yes, we might be just about getting to the point where a symbol would be useful. Something Toby should set up, imo.

5840 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Mark, 3, #132 of 616 🔗

Yellow vests. Vive les gilets jaune !

5920 ▶▶▶ Freddy, replying to kh1485, 1, #133 of 616 🔗

Could write “the lockdown hurts more than the virus”, or other slogans to similar effect, on a mask, zealots would have a hard time pinning blame on us, we’d be masked afterall, but we’d know each other by sight and we’d be able to spread the message to everyone who glanced at our faces.

5713 ▶▶ ianp, replying to Dave #KBF, 6, #134 of 616 🔗

Mask = you need help. Pretty easy to see that

5733 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Dave #KBF, 12, #135 of 616 🔗

I did wonder about getting a t-shirt printed with “You can’t catch it from walking past someone in the street!”

5811 ▶▶ Amy, replying to Dave #KBF, 1, #136 of 616 🔗

The tone of this report made me laugh pretty hard. Thank you!

5660 FiFiTrixabelle, 8, #137 of 616 🔗

The Paul Weston interview signposted in Toby’s update is fab. Well worth the watch…I’m forwarding it to many of my ‘stay home at all costs’ acquaintances!
Great update Toby.

5661 Beacritical, 1, #138 of 616 🔗

Hi Toby,

This link https://lockdownsceptics.org/open-businesses/ to the page relating to the searchable directory of open businesses across the UK doesn’t seem to be working. Don’t know if this is the same for others?

5662 Tim, replying to Tim, 20, #139 of 616 🔗

Most of my Facebook friends … those who bother to comment … seem to be pro-lockdown. Some of them are Socialists who will use any excuse to criticise the government. So far I have resisted answering their posts, as I didn’t want to put friendships on the line. Now I’ve decided to reply to them.

I’m emphasising that I don’t align myself with any political ideology. I try to see things through a humanist lens. What’s best for the people of this planet. And in this case I think what’s best is to let the young people live their lives whilst sheltering the old and vulnerable. It’s a complex equation, and it seems hard hearted to say that the death of a very old person is less tragic than the incarceration of a young one, but I believe it’s true.

I’m finding that by taking a non-confrontational tone I get more thoughtful, sympathetic replies than if I’d gone in with my guns blazing. And so far my friendships are intact.

It’s not much, but it can’t do any harm to try to influence people in this way.

5671 ▶▶ A Meshiea, replying to Tim, 9, #140 of 616 🔗

Good for you. I think it’s actually vital that you try and persuade as many people as possible.
Of course there are some, amongst my friends and family, that are completely impossible to have a discussion with.
For my own sanity I just avoid them.

5693 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to A Meshiea, 3, #141 of 616 🔗

You can only do it in person, I find. Or at least on the phone.
People find it a lot harder to call you a hard-right conspiracy nutter to your face.

5687 ▶▶ ianp, replying to Tim, 8, #142 of 616 🔗

Facebook= narcissistic me me me echochamber. Ignore it

5691 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to ianp, 9, #143 of 616 🔗

I spent a lot of time wondering which was worse, Fatfuck or Twatter. Until I realise they were both a drain on my brain and I should just quit them both 😆

5776 ▶▶ coalencanth12, replying to Tim, 12, #144 of 616 🔗

I have to watch what I say on social media, so I stay rather quiet these days. One of my friends on FB really infuriates me – a lady I did my PhD with married a GP and now lives a rather idyllic life out in the Shires, putting up photos of her lockdown trips with her horses on her rather extensive land holdings, whilst she makes snide remarks about ‘covidiots’ living in grim inner-city estates and how anyone bending lockdown must hate the NHS-god.

The irony here – her and her husband have spent the last few years threatening to strop off to Australia or New Zealand where GP’s ‘so much more valued than they are in the NHS’

5841 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to coalencanth12, 2, #145 of 616 🔗

You could send her Australia / New Zealand tourist brochures. Every now and again …

5664 Oaks79, replying to Oaks79, 6, #146 of 616 🔗

I think I’ve asked every other day on here, what has happened to the thecPorton Down PHE antibody study result that Sir Patrick Vallance mentioned on the 9th of April https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/united-kingdom-covid-19-briefing-transcript-april-9

They was talking this study up as being a key to unlock the lockdown https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/coronavirus-tests-never-heard-hold-key-exit-lockdown/

All gone very quiet, press don’t seem interested.

5690 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Oaks79, 11, #147 of 616 🔗

They don’t want us knowing that we’ve all already had it, basically.

5770 ▶▶ ianp, replying to Oaks79, #148 of 616 🔗

Telegraph is MSM so now hopefully this bloody obvious point we all knew at the start will get some traction. And oh, it will…

5674 Snake Oil Pussy, #149 of 616 🔗

Can you please fix the link for telling you about businesses that have reopened? Or say which browsers it’s been tested with?

5678 John Lilburne, replying to John Lilburne, 7, #150 of 616 🔗

Thanks again, Toby, for your daily updated and efforts. I appreciate all of the comments people post as well. Guy’s article is excellent. “All states progress towards totalitarianism” is devastating in its accuracy. How does one combat this?

Protests never work, unless the aim is to increase state power (like the climate change protests). Protests against the Vietnam War appeared to have had no effect on the course of the war. Ditto for Iraq. Occupy Wall St did nothing. I’m happy to be proven wrong on this if anyone has instances of the opposite being true. Voting, at least for the current parties, will hardly make a difference.

Quite depressing!

5769 ▶▶ ianp, replying to John Lilburne, 4, #151 of 616 🔗

By taking control of your lives and going out as you normally would. Barring ‘social distancing’ shit, there isn’t much you can’t do.

5789 ▶▶▶ Jonathan Castro, replying to ianp, 8, #152 of 616 🔗

I don’t bother with social distancing either

5933 ▶▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Jonathan Castro, 1, #153 of 616 🔗

As I said, not a crime if you don’t get caught… Oh but then fear coma snitches will video you…

Yes, but oh look at that : death rate is decreasing, evidence released to prove the science was wrong ( not released to anyone with half a brain, it’s been there all along).

So… What are the lockdownistas argument for extending now, hmm??

6162 ▶▶▶▶▶ Carlo, replying to ianp, #154 of 616 🔗

Did you hear what happened to the snitchers in Missouri??

5681 wryobserver, replying to wryobserver, 1, #155 of 616 🔗

I have little doubt that the lockdown protected the NHS from being overwhelmed, but the current focus on testing and vaccine development is I think misguided – at least in part. If SARS-COV-2 infection can be prevented from developing into Covid-19 then the risk from, and public perception, of it will diminish substantially. Indeed one could argue that then a lockdown would clearly be unnecessary; there’s not one for norovirus because although it’s highly infectious and not very nice it rarely kills people. But Covid-19 is a killer. Can it be prevented or mitigated? Probably yes – with early testing of oxygen levels and blood iron, and then with aggressive treatment to stop the cytokine storm. Almost nothing has appeared from government or its advisors on treating the condition, other than to record that a huge proportion of people who go onto ventilators will die. Suppose they didn’t? Problem solved. So that’s what they should focus on. For more details and an analogy with HIV see my blog at https://bamjiinrye.wordpress.com .

5731 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to wryobserver, 9, #156 of 616 🔗

Surely chucking all the frail elderly people out of the hospitals so they could die from lack of appropriate care is what protected the NHS from being overwhelmed?

5751 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Cheezilla, 5, #157 of 616 🔗


5736 ▶▶ Gracie Knoll, replying to wryobserver, 13, #158 of 616 🔗

Absolutely and totally agree that the emphasis should be not on preventing infection, but on preventing avoidable death from infection using what we already know and have.

Preventing infection is pretty well impossible, as many scientists have said. You can slow things down to prevent healthcare overwhelm but that’s about it.

Most of us get infected with all sorts of stuff like colds (coronaviruses!) and flu bugs every year. And without the shrieking MSM hysteria we’ve got now, we just carry on as normal. Many don’t get symptoms, some are a bit poorly, still less are very ill for a fortnight then recover on their own, even less are bad enough to be hospitalised, and about 0.1% die. Exactly like Covid19.

We don’t worry about GETTING INFECTED because we all know colds and flu are unlikely to kill us if we’re generally healthy.

And we shouldn’t worry about getting infected with Covid if we have some effective treatments to help our immune systems deactivate it without going into overdrive and causing a cytokine storm.

Most of this stuff is simple. Diet. Sunlight. Weight loss. Vitamin D. Vitamin C at megadose. Simple oral drugs like hydroxychloroquine (not forgetting the zinc!) where safe to use.

As I’ve said elsewhere I’d even welcome a NEW oral drug or drug cocktail from the Pharma boys if was used on an as-needed basis with appropriate risk/benefit assessment.

EVERYTHING we see from government is about the damn vaccine! It’s Pharma’s wet dream; forced imposition of their product upon the whole world. Fine unless we wait for proper testing (18 months to never) and the country crashes and starves, or we don’t wait and let ourselves become guinea pigs for an untrusted product; most likely death and maiming on a scale unmatched by the virus.

The narrative has to be changed by any doctors and scientists willing to speak out.

5739 ▶▶▶ Gracie Knoll, replying to Gracie Knoll, #159 of 616 🔗

Erratum: untested product

5766 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Gracie Knoll, #160 of 616 🔗

I would bet that a lot of countries are spinning the same shit about a ‘vaccine’ so he has to. Therefore just go out there and prove that you don’t need or want one by living life as normal.

5968 ▶▶▶ chris c, replying to Gracie Knoll, #161 of 616 🔗

Of course the vaccine might just be distilled water sold at a very high price.

5683 Mark, replying to Mark, 9, #162 of 616 🔗

“Jeremy Corbyn, for instance, tweeted: “There should be no return to work until it is safe to do so. If work cannot be done safely, it should not proceed. People must come before private profit.” The idea, obviously, is to get it on record that they think Boris is making a dreadful mistake so if the death toll starts to rise they can pin that on him.”

So Corbyn is either so stupid and ignorant that he actually thinks a disease broadly comparable to flu should be treated as if it is a major workplace safety hazard, or he’s so cynical he’s prepared to play politics with people’s jobs and lives.

I’ve never been a fan of Corbyn, but I’ve never been one of his more virulent critics either. I much preferred him to the Blairite alternatives in the Labour Party. But here he goes some way towards reassuring me that despite Johnson having failed the test as PM, the alternative was at least no better and probably much worse. Can anyone believe that Corbyn would not have plunged into the lockdown catastrophe with real eagerness, rather than Johnson’s bungling cowardice, had he been in office?

5688 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Mark, 3, #163 of 616 🔗

Oh Jez would have done exactly the same thing, no doubt. He’s prob busom buddies with Fergy to be fair. Tories may be more capable at getting us out quicker though, I have to concede, even if they’re more concerned with arse covering atm

5709 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Farinances, #164 of 616 🔗

They have to maintain international relations so treading slowly and carefully.

Your rage at the disinformation from msm must rise though.

It’s all now a game, how long we remain on the mouse wheel is up to us

5686 ianp, replying to ianp, 8, #165 of 616 🔗

Boris is on our side. There, I said it.

Everything that is now coming out is coded in such a way to drive sensible people up the wall. Unless you read between the lines and understand it as a call to action.

The MSM are the ones who are responsible for perpetuating fear porn, as are a number of other countries.

But note the sly increase in the number of articles coming out that support facts that we have known all along, and even one piece that understands that controlling the ‘virus’ is controlling the Fear. Maybe some of them are now scuttling for their lives when the truth comes out. It can’t not because it’s out there in plain sight, always has been.

He wants the country to ignore all of this new normal crap but can’t come out and directly say it as he’s penned in by the likes of BBC and quelle surprise, lockdownforeveristas like the guardian.

5694 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to ianp, 16, #166 of 616 🔗

Not my view. If he was such a great leader/strategist he would have had a plan to deal with these interferences in a better way at this stage. His first fatal mistake was to allow the fear message to indoctrinate the nation, second fatal mistake was to follow the ‘science’ (turns out to be massively unrealistic and unreliable).

5707 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Victoria, 7, #167 of 616 🔗

He is. Absolutely. He was backed into a corner by MSM and virtually the entire world on lockdown.

He is giving everyone a way out. To decide for yourselves. Take it.

5768 ▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to ianp, 8, #168 of 616 🔗

Whether by accident or design, I agree they are polliticking the hell out of it now, and rather cleverly, I half sort of think the confusing briefings are part of it too – meet your friends at a safe distance, meet one friend, etc. Key thing is it cannot be policed and it cannot be enforced. And despite the bluster from police chiefs, they don’t want to enforce it either. So in effect, do what you want because no one’s going to stop you is the message.

5928 ▶▶▶▶▶ Karen, replying to BecJT, 2, #169 of 616 🔗

I sincerely hope they don’t want to enforce it, but rememebr it was a police chief who wanted to search shopping trolleys for “non-essential” items. And police chiefs were oh so happy with the draconian powers they were given, and used them well beyond what the legislation actually enabled. Can we trust that they would change round so quickly to wanting to do their jobs and guard against real crimes rather than have the pleasure of being stasi all day?

5772 ▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to ianp, 2, #170 of 616 🔗

It was hugely, hugely popular too, I don’t give him too much credit, he smelled catnip and couldn’t resist. International pressure was huge also. I do think they are now looking to box in Labour, and will probably succeed.

5712 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Victoria, 2, #171 of 616 🔗

Who has spread the fear and refused to do any proper investigative journalism… IE. 5 minutes on the web?

5700 ▶▶ Gracie Knoll, replying to ianp, 25, #172 of 616 🔗

I admire your optimism, ianp.

Perhaps you’re right. I still think that BBC employees and presenters, and newspaper journalists, should start thinking about what’s coming down the tube in terms of their own lives. I think they must be even denser than the rest of the population; quite an achievement.

Nobody will be able to afford a TV licence. Buying a newspaper will be the last thing on anyone’s mind. There will be a state-sponsored propaganda outfit and if you work for it, you’ll toe the line or be imprisoned. Presenters’ and journalists’ children’s and grandchildren’s futures will be thrown under a bus.

“What did you do in the Great Lockdown, Grandad?”

“Well, Johnny, I helped to spread all the fear and panic that continued the lockdown, broke the economy and the NHS, killed more people than the virus, and ushered in the totalitarian police state you’re now living in. Now pass me my bowl of gruel, will you?”

5719 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Gracie Knoll, 5, #173 of 616 🔗

And won’t that bit of schadenfreude be satisifying. I nearly blew a gasket when I heard Iain Dale suggest yesterday that people ought to be responsible for their own lives, as though business owners/workers prohibited from working should have factored in pandemics and the resultant gov’t balls-up into their financial forecasting. When the advertising revenues dry up and the Beeb start feeling the pinch of all those people not renewing their licences, perhaps then the ever-so-emoting (but couldn’t give a damn) newsreaders will understand our anger.

5705 ▶▶ Mark, replying to ianp, 12, #174 of 616 🔗

Not buying it.

This requires too many implausible assumptions to be credible. It’s always so convenient when you postulate that a leader has not quite enough power to be able to do those nice things you claim he really wants to do but daren’t, but on the other hand he is so incredibly cunning that all the seeming setbacks, betrayals and acts of gross incompetence are just traps and mechanisms he has set in place to win through against all the dark powers. Just have faith in the Leader and all will be well in the end.

All too often in the end those who have fallen for this kind of argument (which I’ve seen quite a few times before in other contexts) just end up waiting for a great reveal that never comes. Then their leader is replaced by a new one and the cycle begins again, from a worse place.

5760 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Mark, 2, #175 of 616 🔗

Maybe so… But after 2 months of utter horror and pessimism, the only way out of this for we the people, is to simply get out there and live your life. Basically, that’s what he was saying.

There won’t be tightening of restrictions due to the ‘ virus’, am almost totally sure of that.

People won’t accept it.

5765 ▶▶▶▶ Gracie Knoll, replying to ianp, 4, #176 of 616 🔗

People are still accepting the first lot of restrictions; why would they refuse more?

5779 ▶▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Gracie Knoll, 4, #177 of 616 🔗

The KEY is it can’t be policed. Think about it. Drive where you want. Hang around places. Meet people. Spend as much time outside as you want. Go to work. What reason does a police officer have to stop you? None. So there’ll be two groups, the terrified, tiptoeing around, and the rest of us, knowing we can have some reason for doing pretty much anything right now, and no one can stop us. How can the police pull you over and ask where you are going? How can they move you on? How can they tell you can’t go to work? Or go there? How are they even going to check that who you are with are not in your household? You just say they are. However we got here, I agree with Ian’s analysis that BJ was saying that we have to tell him that we’ve unlocked ourselves. I also think the plan was always herd immunity (it was a very leaky lockdown) and remains so now. It also shafts Labour, the road map was littered with the utter armageddon this is visiting on the poor and how we can’t do it forever. What’s Labour’s move now? They’ll bleat about PPE for a bit, and safe working, but how are they going to argue it? Just seen Kier on the telly, he looks like a man with trapped wind.

5783 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to BecJT, 3, #178 of 616 🔗

Plus as Toby says, R won’t go up. So if R doesn’t go up, it’s over. It’s over anyway I think, bar the shouting.

5813 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to BecJT, 5, #179 of 616 🔗

No, the unenforceability is a bit of a red herring here. It’s true that it’s now harder for it to be policed in terms of people just going out for a walk or driving around, but it still leaves all kinds of opportunities for harassment, and it still leaves our movements open to peremptory question by any police officer who feels inclined to do so. It’s no good being “permitted” to go out for unlimited exercise if a neighbour snitches on you for dropping in at a friend’s for a cup of tea, for instance.

And all this attempt to let it down slowly is aimed at saving the careers of a few responsible politicians, at the cost of leaving the precedent in place for future governments to lock us down any time they can whip up another hysteria.

Any result but an apology is a disaster, full stop, and Johnson’s sorry career is not something that is worth that price, even if you choose for some reason to let him off the hook, as ianp seeks to do.

5820 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Mark, 4, #180 of 616 🔗

I’d agree with your second point, and I absolutely one hundred percent agree that our end game is that, an apology and some legal mechanism for it never, ever, ever happening again. I also agree he’s saving his own skin, and trying to remain popular, but I really do think the political chess game idea has some merit. The tories are ruthless and pragmatic, the back bench and donor pressure must be huge now, plus from think tanks, certain newspapers etc. I think Boris is a mendacious pillock, but he’s not stupid. Plus they do need to out flank Labour, the opposition are as much of a disgrace.

I disagree on policing, police must know it’s wrecking community relations, every major police chief tweeted yesterday that their role in enforcing this is over (ignore the bluster, I think they no more want to police it than the government want them to – trigger happy officers aside, I’m talking senior, sensible cops).

I’m with Ian in that we – us sceptics, the sane lot – have an opportunity to push back. And just get on with it. What are people honestly going to do, do you really think people would be so confident in real life to front up to a challenge? They might tut, they’re not going to wrestle us to the ground. I think we need to push home our advantage and I think it’ll soon be no longer socially acceptable to snitch, much harder also, comings and goings will increase, people are going ‘back to work’. I read Ian’s long post of this morning on yesterday’s post, I think maybe how we arrived here wasn’t cunning, but blatant playing to the gallery, but I do think they are trying to get out of that corner they are painted into by being deliberately vague.

5849 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to BecJT, 3, #181 of 616 🔗

“I think they no more want to police it than the government want them to – trigger happy officers aside, I’m talking senior, sensible cops).”

I think we’ve established that there are few if any senior cops immune to either this delusion or the temptation of this kind of power. It was a Chief Constable (of Northamptonshire) who thought it was sensible to threaten to check people’s shopping trolleys, and operations like the Met police’s thuggish park clearance the other day or the use of drones to harass countryside walkers early on would absolutely have been specifically authorised at the top level. These are not people who can be expected to help us here at all.

“we – us sceptics, the sane lot – have an opportunity to push back. And just get on with it.”

I don’t have a problem with that aspect at all. I just don’t believe the fairy story about noble Boris fighting our corner secretly, against terrible odds.

If he were really at all what his public image, and perhaps his self image, makes him out to be, he would have gone down fighting tooth and nail against the devastating unBritish and profoundly unTory lockdown in mid-March, whatever the odds.

And if he’d lost, what would the cost have been? We’d have got a lockdown as we did anyway. And he would have gotten to start preparing his script for “Boris Johnson – the wilderness years” while waiting for truth to catch up with whoever was now in charge. Because at least he would have been on the side of truth and reality.

5907 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Mark, 6, #182 of 616 🔗

I don’t for a second think he’s noble, or honest, I do think he’s quite cunning. I’d agree they’ve made a total hash of it, but now they have, and know they have, they are frantically trying to get out. Plus he didn’t magic up a sixty page document, that took weeks and a team. I think they’ve war gamed it from all angles. He’s come up with a fudge that allows the public to make a decision, allows them to quietly lose control of it, puts Labour in a corner, and doesn’t go against public opinion. Lots of police chiefs warned as we locked down that it put the police in a jam (idiots aside), and they were all tweeting again last night. I totally agree that anyone of any integrity wouldn’t have done what he did, but the international pressure was immense, the media, social media (did you see Prof Dingwall on Newsnight, he’s on Nervtag? He said social media panic pretty much was the nail in the coffin). I don’t think Boris is a hero, I think he’s machiavellian, and is planning to save his own skin. But he’s given us an out, and we need to take it.

5809 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to ianp, 5, #183 of 616 🔗

Except no, that’s exactly what he’s not saying. He’s saying “rejoice, serfs, big brother is lifting some of the restrictions on your permitted activities. Be careful you don’t take it too far, mind, because I’m increasing the punishments for any serfs who get carried away into thinking (as you seem to be suggesting, ianp) that they can “get out there and live their lives””.

I genuinely can’t understand the mentality of any supposed conservative who thinks this approach is somehow acceptable. At best, if what you argue is entirely correct, Johnson would have saved his own career at the expense of establishing a precedent for degrees of state control, interference and spending that would have been a hard leftist’s wet dream just a few months ago.

5821 ▶▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Mark, #184 of 616 🔗

What’s Labour’s move now? Did you read the Gov’s roadmap report?

5835 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to BecJT, 6, #185 of 616 🔗

Why does it matter what Labour’s move is? This isn’t a party political contest. We aren’t dealing with one party that is pro-lockdown and one that is against it, We are dealing with the PM and party that are responsible for imposing this disaster and other parties who are as bad or worse. Labour are an irrelevance for the time being, the Conservatives have a solid majority and no need to have an election for years. Now is exactly the time when a party in government can get away with unpopularity when needed, which is one reason why ianp’s questionable defence of Johnson as supposedly having done the best he could for the country in the face of impossible odds falls apart.

It gains us nothing to save Johnson’s miserable political neck, except to allow him to get away with portraying the lockdown as a grim but necessary policy that worked but we can now move on from. In the long run, that’s an utter disaster for everyone in the country except for Johnson and a few close collaborators.

Ianp’s case is a variant of a familiar one used to try to suppress unrest within a party’s core support when they are being betrayed. I’ve seen it used by Blairites, Bushites and Trumpians that I can immediately recall, and I’d bet my last pound I could bring back to mind occasions it was used against Thatcherites if I were to put my mind to it. It goes something like: “actually the Great Leader is playing 10 dimensional chess to outwit and defeat the massive forces of the Other Side ranged against him, so you guys need to support him, otherwise you’ll be helping the Other Side”. Usually it’s used over just ordinary issues of tactical politics, but in this case it’s being attempted on an issue of core national interest. There never seems to be any suggestion that the Great Leader should make a public stand on the point of principle and risk his career over it. But in this case, that’s exactly what Johnson should have done in mid-March, if ianp’s analysis of the situation were correct. His career absolutely should not take precedence over defending against the very idea of national lockdown, and he would have been a hero if he had gone down fighting.

But no, be patient, the Great Leader is on your side. Just wait and all will be well.

5908 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Mark, #186 of 616 🔗

Ian isn’t a Tory as far as I’m aware, as he’s said on previous posts of this ilk. And knock of the snark, this is a friendly chat board, if I need a lecture I’ll let you know.

5951 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to BecJT, 4, #187 of 616 🔗

No snark intended, but I can’t help how you read what I write.

As for ianp I know absolutely nothing about him and I don’t seek to imply that he’s necessarily a Conservative Party member. I just take him as I find him, and I find him using, as I wrote, a kind of argument that is regularly used to maintain discipline within a party and making rather persistent attempts to defend the person wholly personally responsible for this unprecedented lockdown policy. I disagree with him, and I say so.

5910 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Mark, 3, #188 of 616 🔗

Ok… You don’t buy the ‘masterplan’ thesis. But there are loads of players in the game, the whole world. All on lockdown

If he had not locked down at all, then those afflicted by the virus would be all too visible consequence of it – must lockdown, the idiots cried. The pressure was monumental remember

Lockdown was the defacto way.. for some reason.

UK as far as I know was one of the last of the major western European countries to go down this disastrous route. Russia was much later. But during that previous week we still had a champions League game attended, and the Cheltenham festival – load up as much as possible on any virus before turning off the lights.

They would have been carefully analysing that data from other countries

Then basically, the loosest lockdown you could have.. to encourage the spread. Incoming flights where possible, no quarantine, walk on through

This is a worldwide chess game being played.

So now compare this to the left wing lockdownistas , still hilariously calling for it to be extended.

Countries like new Zealand… With no covid deaths at all, but STILL in lockdown. Mental!

5949 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to ianp, 5, #189 of 616 🔗

For whatever reason, you claim to have seen clever government reluctantly but rationally and cunningly responding to overwhelming pressure. But none of the pressures you are talking about were overwhelming to a British Prime Minister who had his party broadly behind him and does not face an election. It just doesn’t work that way. Seriously, you are talking about media and social media noise as if it’s some kind of real menace, when it isn’t. And that’s disregarding the clear evidence that it was government policy to intentionally ramp up fear in the population in order to encourage compliance with disease measures. If they had been wanting to control fear, we would have heard lots more from both the government and their media outlets downplaying the fear stuff. We didn’t.

As for foreign pressure, again, that’s not something that the government had to fold to. If you are trying to say the costs of say French action against us would have been unbearable. well first the French have their own problems and second nothing the French government could have done would have cost a fraction of what the lockdown has cost. We absolutely could have stuck to the Swedish policy if the government had had the courage to do it and to deploy its considerable opinion manipulation resources, starting with the Prime ministerial bully pulpit, to control fear and defend concepts like herd immunity, which they basically let go without even trying to defend them.

And let’s suppose you are correct and they were doomed to fail. What would be the cost of trying? Nothing, except the PM job. And if Johnson were a decent man then he would willingly have put that on the line to defend the nation against this lockdown disaster.

Let’s be clear – this lockdown should have been ANATHEMA to a Conservative Prime Minister.

I saw a PM and a government in a panic, fearing the nonsense hype about the potential consequences of this disease and terrified that they might get blamed for inaction. A government and a PM who failed in the most direct and personal failure possible – giving in to unjustified fear. And the menace of the media and social media opinionators was not that they were some kind of unstoppable political force, which they aren’t and never will be, but that too many of the top politicians such as Johnson himself were paying attention to them, and allowing themselves to be panicked.

5927 ▶▶▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Mark, #190 of 616 🔗

Look, the key thing for me is that the precedent for state control was coming from every country that went into strict lockdown. Sweden was ignored or called ‘controversial’ by MSM , Lukashenko (he of those brilliant quotes) was ridiculed, Trump was ridiculed, bolsonaro of Brazil. They have all had to back down, except for Belarus, who are a military dictatorship ( we don’t want that here and would not get it)

5952 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to ianp, 2, #191 of 616 🔗

You’re arguing as though “ridicule” is something by which a national leader can be compelled to sacrifice his nation’s most vital interests, as well as his political party’s most fundamental principles.

5822 ▶▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to ianp, 6, #192 of 616 🔗

Why’s he/they increasing fines then for non compliance?

5850 ▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Nigel Baldwin, #193 of 616 🔗

What is there left that could be labelled ‘non compliance’ ?

6037 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to JohnB, 1, #194 of 616 🔗

Visiting someone, intentionally going within 2m (!) of anyone not in your household, working as a barber or any of the numerous barred jobs currently….

5931 ▶▶▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Nigel Baldwin, #195 of 616 🔗

Increasing fines for breaking social distance – appease the lockdownistas. But is encouraging us to get out there and speak to people. As many people as we like…. Face to 2 metre face

Finally, its only a fine if some daft plod sees you isn’t it? It ain’t a crime if you don’t get caught

5726 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to ianp, 4, #196 of 616 🔗

How great it would be if you were right …

5790 ▶▶ Jonathan Castro, replying to ianp, 6, #197 of 616 🔗

Why is he penned in? If he doesn’t want the lockdown, he should just lift it.

5917 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Jonathan Castro, 3, #198 of 616 🔗

Other countries and their gradual release of lockdown, all of them still with stringent restrictions in place. You have to appease them , MSM, quivering fools still plugged into fear coma.

Those countries are starting to riot

We don’t have to. We just need to get out there and choose… influence.

And NO, am not a Tory at all, have switched voting many times. Just very logical, pragmatic, and recently quite paranoid! I will choose a side that will give us the most freedom

5936 ▶▶▶▶ Jenny, replying to ianp, 2, #199 of 616 🔗

I’m all with you on the “choose the side that gives us the most freedom”, i just wish there was such a side. Over the course of this lockdown disaster we’ve seen every MP come out against liberty, even those with some scepticism of lockdown wouldn’t go far enough to say it was outright wrong. I would very much like to have a single issue political party i could support which works only for individual liberty, whilst all the other parties p*ss oevr liberty whenever doing so fits their real right-wing,left-wing,centrist,socialist,devolutionist,unionist,pro-business,pro-health,pro-environment,pro-tradition,…,… agendas.

5959 ▶▶▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Jenny, 1, #200 of 616 🔗

Right ok… Nevermind plotting how we got here and the blame right now.

The key is whose side of the available choices will get us back to normal and get rid of the frckin perspex, iPhone ads and God knows what.

I think that’s Boris.

And… Today, round my area. Only 1 -2 masked loons about. That’s encouraging.

That’s the easy steps and could be a clear signal to all – if you don’t have a mask on then you are not afraid and think it’s a load of bollocks, now move on.

It’s that simple.

If some prat leaps out your way out and about, well they are still plugged in.

Never ever wear a mask

5699 Marcus, replying to Marcus, 2, #201 of 616 🔗
5701 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Marcus, 1, #202 of 616 🔗

Does Toby mean the big corporate chains or small local businesses? I’m a bit scared of listing smaller companies for fear that, indeed, the rozzers will descend……

5702 Yes to Freedom, 11, #203 of 616 🔗

Can we start thinking about starting a protest from Trafalgar Square to Downing Street?

5711 Peter Thompson, replying to Peter Thompson, 9, #204 of 616 🔗

Here is what the BBC ‘ s Ukraine correspondent Jonah Fischer writes with regard to Ukraine easing its lockdown
,”Ukraine has so far avoided the worst of the coronavirus outbreak. No-one’s quite sure why, but it’s probably because of the decisive early action taken by the authorities.” Obviously Jonah hasn’t looked next door at Belarus or if Belarus is not to his taste Sweden.
All the Slavic countries of Eastern Europe have been notably un touched by covid19 and the only area with a mortality that you could notice in the statistics is Moscow…population 10 million.

5750 ▶▶ swedenborg, replying to Peter Thompson, 6, #205 of 616 🔗


One thing in common for all those ex-communist countries was that all of them used BCG vaccination not only once but repeatedly in their old healthcare system. Although the link above found no direct proof it is still puzzling that the Covid-19 incidence was much lower in the former DDR in Germany

5853 ▶▶▶ Peter Thompson, replying to swedenborg, 4, #206 of 616 🔗

Yes it is interesting to see how eastern Europe seemed to escape the fatalities of covid19 , though until widespread antibody testing we wont have the figures for prevalence of the virus.
BCG is a factor .
I would point out some other differences for thoughts. Hungary is one of the eastern spared nations although its population is certainly not slavic. All these countries have higher incidence of smokers and nicotine seems to be a protective factor . it should be noted that they have a much lower number of BAME citizens as well and it would seem that cities where BAME are large minorities eg Paris, London, Birmingham, New York seem to have been badly effected ? vit D .

5856 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Peter Thompson, 3, #207 of 616 🔗

Perhaps it could be as simple as they are not particularly looking for it, or overdiagnosing it in deaths as we do, so it isn’t particularly showing up? Combined with generally lower incidence due to the factors you mention.

Moscow is interesting and the big metropolises do seem to get hit hard.

5890 ▶▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Peter Thompson, 1, #208 of 616 🔗

Seriously, can you imagine stating that nicotine is an antiviral!! I kind of knew this based upon some studies out there. The fearful masses would be lighting up like crazy.

No one wants that, but the gibbering fools would do it, despite the known long term health risks!

As an ex smoker and vaper myself, the last thing I want is a toilet roll style run on vape juice…

6291 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Peter Thompson, #209 of 616 🔗

Watch this Peter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imrLwM97i0k A mathematician illustrates how, bizarrely (given that a virus has no ‘brain’ of its own and therefore and does not know where in the world it is), the virus deaths are far higher in locations near to seats of power, whereas in the rest of the world there have been far lower infection and death rates. He also shows how the statistics are being manipulated in those places: as soon as the infection and death rates start to clearly drop off (ie when the virus is therefore clearly on the way out), the statistics are then being fudged by politicians in order to keep the rates high and thereby avoid having to lift lockdown..

5717 scepticalsue, replying to scepticalsue, 35, #210 of 616 🔗

I’m not sure what I expected from Boris Johnson yesterday but it’s clear that our path out of this self imposed madness is going to be slow and tedious. Thanks in part to the shameful mainstream media terrorising people into being genuinely afraid to leave their homes, we are on course to have one of the longest economic shutdowns in modern history, as well as restrictions upon our civil liberties that have never been seen before in this country.
As I think back to early March, and Johnson’s comments on how herd immunity was the way forward, shortly followed by widespread outrage by the general public (I’ve been shocked and saddened by the hysteria I’ve seen on social media, including from people I thought were sensible and level headed), I’m genuinely pondering one question – are we the only country that demanded to be forcibly locked down by our government rather than the other way round?

5718 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to scepticalsue, 3, #211 of 616 🔗

Basically yes. Apart from some states in the US.

5722 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to scepticalsue, 18, #212 of 616 🔗

Yes the MSM stoked up hysteria but Johnson and his team with access to spin doctors and PR companies failed spectacularly to get more balanced messages out. To make matters worse they then adopted the highly ‘successful’ (fear mongering) slogan using all types of media 24 hours per day. They waited until yesterday to tone the message down. Much too late.

5732 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Victoria, 5, #213 of 616 🔗

Hmmm, again I think that might be deliberate. The aim was to get this all over with as soon as possible. In the long run it was always the right strategy.

We won’t get a ‘2nd wave’, and this R number will never increase. I am sure of it

Now it’s our job to bring people out of their fear coma

5757 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Victoria, 6, #214 of 616 🔗

I think the strategy always had to be that virus just had to run its course, burn its way through and die out. Govt did switch to lockdown due to media pressure, and then maintained its message. It has ALWAYS talked about R number not cases.

Did they simply know that MSM would run fear porn 24 7? Which of course they have gleefully done. And subsequently now gone on about cases, and deaths ‘with’ covid.

I would simply wonder why MSM haven’t simply spoken to a few people who had it and recovered. Feels like wilful ignorance. Which will be a monumental mistake from them… As some beginning to realise

5761 ▶▶▶▶ Gracie Knoll, replying to ianp, 5, #215 of 616 🔗

Yup. Piers Morgan and Neil Ferguson will have to escape to a desert island together.

5785 ▶▶▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Gracie Knoll, 3, #216 of 616 🔗

Ferguson may have been a patsy, he has a perfect track record of wildly pessimistic predictions which govt would have been well aware of.

Oh and here is a very interesting stat for you:

How many people on average die in England every year….?

Answer = 500000

Where have we heard that number before, hmmm?


5882 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Tarquin Von Starheim, replying to ianp, #217 of 616 🔗

Sorry what is the significance of that?

5953 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Tarquin Von Starheim, 1, #218 of 616 🔗

That was his prediction for the number of people to die of covid…

So, in 12 months time it will be shown to have not have caused any deaths at all.

Woh… I don’t know if I like what I am suggesting here.

5865 ▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Gracie Knoll, #219 of 616 🔗

The silver lining …

5725 Tony Rattray, replying to Tony Rattray, 18, #220 of 616 🔗

There is a stand out paragraph for me in the latest uk government plan:

“A more differentiated approach to risk

As the UK moves into phase two, the Government will continue to recognise that not everybody’s or every group’s risk is the same; the level of threat posed by the virus varies across the population, in ways the Government currently only partly understands.”

Question – how did the government / sage not fully understand this to start with? Was it not obvious that the old and individuals with underlying health problems where always going to be those most at risk / making up the vast majority of those individuals that have sadly died to date? Hence, by simple deduction, care homes should have been focused on from the start for ppe, tests, etc., but where not.

Conclusion – sage has been incompetent based upon simplistic and worst case scenario modelling.

Question – if a mere simpleton like me can work out where the real risk was going to be, why was a differentiated approach not adopted to start with (in other words, proportional risk management)? Hence there would have been an early focus and action within care homes with ppe and testing and tracing. The focus of the last 10 weeks being to protect the most vulnerable (crudely speaking, lockdown for approx 10% of the population with measures to support) with, for example, the vast majority of citizens instead reaching a voluntary consensus with the state (its called democracy) – eg. distancing measures, self-isolation for individuals with symptoms, not going round shaking everybody’s hand, etc.

Conclusion – our current crop of politicians lacked the spine or leadership to do otherwise (hid behind modelling dressed up as ‘the science”) with simplistic and worse case scenario modelling of the virus by sage (fuelled by social media, etc) overriding common sense.

However, on a much more positive note, the report also states the following:

“I know the current arrangements do not provide an enduring solution – the price is too heavy, to our national way of life, to our society, to our economy, indeed to our long-term public health. And while it has been vital to arrest the spread of the virus, we know it has taken a heavy toll on society.”

Wake up nicola sturgeon et al! But don’t worry, you will once the state holiday pay ends! The scottish economy will be hit even harder than england with its greater employment in the public sector, heavier reliance on tourism and with oil and gas employment already being on its knees.

5746 ▶▶ Oaks79, replying to Tony Rattray, 4, #221 of 616 🔗

Yep all they had to do was look at the data coming from Italy to see what was needed to be done. I think pretty much most on this site could see it.

5747 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Tony Rattray, 3, #222 of 616 🔗

Indeed. If SAGE are so smart, how did they miss it or ….?

5749 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Tony Rattray, 1, #223 of 616 🔗

She doesn’t care. After all, English tax dollar will prop her up. Lol its like Scotland has been furloughed.

5763 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Tony Rattray, 5, #224 of 616 🔗

I thought the stuff about economic and social toll in that report, was really the point of it, and it puts pressure back on Labour to justify lockdown’s continuation (because let’s be frank, they’ve done nothing to fiddle whilst Rome burns, picking at how to do a terrible, nonsensical strategy better). My work niche is the social and health outcomes of deprivation and inequality, and I think it’s telling it was so emphasised. I totally agree with your analysis by the way, I’m so sad about what we’ve done to our oldies, and then we all hypocritically went and ‘celebrated’ VE on the Friday after clapping the NHS (that did it to them!) on the Thursday.

5979 ▶▶ Lilly, replying to Tony Rattray, 1, #225 of 616 🔗

You always make a worst case scenario, but you only use it to judge how much budget you might need and how big to make your reserves of resources. You don’t, unless you’re as insane as our government and mainstream media have been, base all your immediate actions on that worst case.

5737 Sceptic, replying to Sceptic, 2, #226 of 616 🔗

Thanks Toby another fantastic blog and thanks also for the bonus reads.

On the subject of antibody tests and the origin of the virus, a joint US and Chinese study (journal of Cellular & Molecular Immunobiology) have found that Covid-19 targets and destroys our immune system eg our T cells – just like HIV.

Prof. Luc Montagnier, who discovered HIV said that Covid19 has HIV sequences that can only have been inserted in a laboratory. According to the new research, the normally dominant T cell becomes prey to the coronavirus, and is deactivated from protecting the body – a step up from the SARS virus that could not penetrate the T cell. The difference is that unlike HIV, Covid 19 does not replicate.

This is sounding more like a Frankenstein virus every day.

Here is the article about the research:

Visual of Cytotoxic T cells and how they work : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntk8XsxVDi0&feature=youtu.be

Prof Montagnier: http://thejewishvoice.com/2020/04/2008-nobel-prize-for-medicine-winning-dr-luc-montagnier-says-covid-19-was-manipulated-for-hiv-research/

5782 ▶▶ swedenborg, replying to Sceptic, 1, #227 of 616 🔗

Thanks for the link. Dr Fauci’s role in this is suspicious. He has tried to have an HIV vaccine for 40 years. His role with Robert Gallo trying to “steal” the discovery of HIV from the French team was a disgrace. It seems that a Law in the US 1980 permitted federal employed scientists to claim patent for discoveries instead of the patent belonging to the US government. This has led the Big Pharma to increase the influence enormously especially for patent of new vaccines. But better not continue as some blog commentators think this is a conspiracy theory and BBC, youtube, Facebook don’t want us to talk about it.

5792 ▶▶▶ Sceptic, replying to swedenborg, 3, #228 of 616 🔗

Ah OK, so free speech is muzzled in a free speech blog?

I think those who believe in the notion of conspiracy theories should remember that this was a term coined by the CIA to discredit anyone voicing inconvenient truths. There is a very sophisticated campaign that discredits anyone who speaks up (eg biased fact checkers) and this has more recently become complete censorship by social media, wikipedia, google, etc.

Intelligence agencies and governments have publicly said they are looking into this link and to be frank, common sense would tell you that this virus has probably escaped from the lab.

5942 ▶▶▶▶ Lilly, replying to Sceptic, 3, #229 of 616 🔗

Wouldn’t be confident to say it had escaped a lab, wouldn’t be confident to say it hadn’t. The scandal really worth focusing on is how the authoritarian crooks who hold illegitimate power in China then arrested the doctors who discovered the spread in the population, threatened all whistle-blowers about the disease, and then having faield to stop it early on how they carried out a lockdown policy which the rest of the world went on to disastrously copy. Unlike the natural-vs-lab question this scandal is fully proven and helps point out the dangerous flaws in a system of government, increasingly becoming fashionable across the world, which runs concentration camps and social credit score mechanisms.

5978 ▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Lilly, 5, #230 of 616 🔗

It escaping the lab is actually the only thing I feel….. *fairly confident about.

What are the chances that a weird new virus just erupts out of nowhere in the exact same location as a disease research facility? I mean. Come on. It’s just too coincidental.

5740 Mark, replying to Mark, 13, #231 of 616 🔗

The magic money tree stuff is pretty amusing. As far as I can tell the argument is that we can just borrow as much money as we want because interest rates are low and we can ensure they stay low. What could possibly go wrong?

And suddenly conservatives who a short while ago were shouting until they were blu(er) in the face that Corbyn’s spending plans would be disastrous because the extra debt would cripple us, are left claiming that somehow this debt is different because it’s “necessary” to deal with a supposed health emergency.

Never mind the issue of why a flu-type epidemic is suddenly a national health emergency. Even if it were, how does that make this debt different somehow in its effects – as debt – from debts incurred to pay for foolish Corbynista nonsense? I mean, it’s all debt, whether we are incurring it to pay for stuff or to prevent supposedly a disaster cause by a disease. In fact, necessary or not, this debt should be worse because first, we don’t acquire any benefits at all from the spending other than the benefit of supposedly averting bad things, and second, we have to start to pay for it in the midst of the economic disaster caused by the lockdown.

This dynamic was pointed out by Peter Hitchen in the weekly discussion of the covebola panic with Mike Graham on TalkRadio:


Unfortunately Graham basically just evades the point.

5745 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Mark, #232 of 616 🔗

Great post.

5743 swedenborg, 2, #233 of 616 🔗


New interesting article from Evidence Based Oxford Group.In most PCR tested patients still only about 20% positive for Covid-19. There could be many unknown agents around.Also discussing the monomaniac fixation with pandemic influenza earlier and forgetting about other viruses for ILI.

5759 Paul B, replying to Paul B, 5, #234 of 616 🔗

There’s a game I like to play with (mostly left wing) prominent theories I like to call “let’s take that to it’s logical conclusion”.

Now consider this severity of this flu is never worked back, the government never admit how badly they got it wrong and the restrictions on temperature sensing are kept in airports and/or expanded out to all international travel, possibly even public transport and likely not evenly. You book a family holiday, you arrange time from work for both parents, you book, pay and travel onwards towards your one family holiday a year, but, child no.3 has caught a cold. Or worse still has food poisoning the day before you are due to travel home.

So… what do you suspect will happen and how do you suppose we integrate this new reality into our lives?

6031 ▶▶ Letmeout, replying to Paul B, 1, #235 of 616 🔗

I saw this on BBC yesterday morning – couldn’t believe what I was seeing! How would you ever get travel insurance? Friend of mine who is scared of flying says she will be stuffed as is a sweating heap of nerves before she even gets to the duty free. I live close to Gatwick Airport – this whole lunacy is going to devastate our local area.

5775 Sim18, replying to Sim18, 3, #236 of 616 🔗

“By the way, what happened to the much-heralded Porton Down antibody testing survey? “.
Wrote to my MP with that very question at the weekend. I await a reply.

6081 ▶▶ Cbird, replying to Sim18, #237 of 616 🔗

It’s mentioned in the Telegraph today

There is no epidemic across UK, say researchers


5777 Winston Smith, 1, #238 of 616 🔗

Toby, sorry be a pedant, it’s The The, not the The. Emphasis is everything 🙂

5784 The Man at the Back, replying to The Man at the Back, 6, #239 of 616 🔗

Check UKColumn news – astonishing stuff

5814 ▶▶ Ian Rons, replying to The Man at the Back, #240 of 616 🔗

You’ll have to be more specific.

6111 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Ian Rons, #241 of 616 🔗

Possibly speaking about the ‘SAGE’ revelations, where our government’s committee was discussing how to emotionally frighten us.

5786 Paul B, replying to Paul B, 11, #242 of 616 🔗

It’s impressive that they allowed a member of the public to ask the first and in my view most widely subjective, contradictory advice in the release. “Can I meet other people I know in the park as long as I maintain social distance?” – Boris, ‘well err no, that’s going too far.’

So… I can go to the park, with my whole family, and presumably unless the park is the size of a small family garden there will be other families there, but I am not allowed to be there if I know any of them, and if they try to talk to me from 2m away I must ignore them and quickly pack up and leave!?

I mean I’m quite glad it’s impossible to police, I can actually go out and see friends again, and if you are travelling anywhere to see anyone now at least you can be “heading to a park”. The only way to come a cropper is if the neighbors narc on you for visiting your family, which I would argue is and always has been your right and your risk to take!

It’s clever really, people will force each other to walk in lock-step with the government and shun anyone who doesn’t now as “they are ruining it for everyone”. However as we have seen the virus has already ripped through the country like a good does of Delhi-belly (is that racist to say in 2020?) and the bell curve will continue down the backslide regardless of what the government does. That is unless they keep locking down every time a small patch of the heard build up a tolerance, I suppose we could be like this until Gates comes around with his pointy thing…

5965 ▶▶ ianp, replying to Paul B, #243 of 616 🔗

No… Wait. Clever

The point is that you DO speak to people you don’t know!

Persuade and influence

5788 Poppy, replying to Poppy, 22, #244 of 616 🔗

Now that I’ve had 24 hours to absorb and process Boris’ speech, as well as look as the accompanying guidance, it’s clear that the government are trying to have their cake and eat it. They’re so petrified of losing votes on either side of the debate that they’ve sort of tried to appease both sides. They have all the fancy dials and ‘R’ numbers to give the impression that they’re taking a softly-softly approach to easing this house arrest to please the lockdown zealots; and they’ve tried to give some indication that there is light at the end of the tunnel and restrictions are being lifted to please us sceptics. The result is guidance that, on its face, seems straightforward, but ultimately becomes confusing and conflicting when it is applied to 66 million life circumstances.

I think this ambiguity is deliberate and I really hope Boris is now giving the space for people to assess risk for themselves, and we’ll end up seeing more restrictions lifted in the coming weeks as the public are coaxed out of their holes. The public always seem to be around 1-2 weeks ahead of the government; they clamoured for a lockdown for around a week before it was implemented, and people starting going out more and getting more courageous around two weeks before this easing was announced. I expect the next step will be that people will ignore the 2m distancing rule with family (and anyone who isn’t a mug will do this, do the government really expect us to stay 2m away from loved ones we haven’t seen in months) and then the government will formally ‘allow’ households to meet up in some sort of arbitrarily limited way in order to look like they’re controlling the situation.

I find it interesting that they’re putting so much emphasis on the R number to measure the outbreak. A more accurate metric (or not, given the way the ONS records statistics) would be deaths but I wonder if the government’s focus on R rate makes it convenient for them to pull out any old number from their arse to either justify re-locking down or further lifting.

I’m very concerned that we’ll re-lock down, likely due to hysteria in the coming weeks as people see cases creep up (which they will anyway, it’s what a virus does) and even though such a rate of increase would still be within healthcare capacity, the government will manipulate the R number to justify re-locking down. This is the crux of the issue – I think it’s unrealistic to keep the R below 1 if we want any sort of life (but apparently very minimal measures such as merely handwashing and distancing from strangers etc is enough to keep it below 1 anyway, as Toby says above) – we only need to keep R below hospital capacity. R of flu is widely believed to be around 1.4. It does grate on me when the MSM breathlessly reports that cases in countries which have lifted their lockdowns are seeing an increase – what do you expect? It shouldn’t be the goal to eradicate the virus with lockdown intervention because it just does not work and comes at far too high a cost.

It would of course be lunacy to re-lockdown but then again, this lockdown itself is lunacy, so nothing is beyond possibility.

5864 ▶▶ ianp, replying to Poppy, 8, #245 of 616 🔗

Agree. But there will be no re-lockdown. Not a chance in hell. They’ve already said it would be regional if enough of the slumbering fear fools aren’t turned.

What it is now is a RACE back to normal.

The country that can do this will have an economic competitive advantage.

Down to us to make sure it’s the UK!!

6012 ▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to ianp, 3, #246 of 616 🔗

Indeed, and I hope you’re right – it is untenable to have any sort of normal, meaningful life, or run a business, under the constant threat of potential future lockdowns imposed on a whim without notice. I hope that the easing gives people to impetus to go outside and get everything moving again, melting away the fear, and momentum will gather until it’s too late to stop it.

Of course, we must be ever-vigilant about the MSM and the fear it stirs up – as long as people are scared and feel the threat is immediate and will personally affect them, they will be more likely to support further lockdowns. This is why, as some commenters have pointed out on this thread, the narrative really needs to shift to emphasising the bad things which will happen as a result of the lockdown, for which there is much more convincing evidence.

5884 ▶▶ guy153, replying to Poppy, 3, #247 of 616 🔗

Agree it’s a classic Johnson cake ploy (as I predicted a couple of weeks back). Except I think what he’s achieved this time is no cake and not eating it. Serves him right.

5793 Old Bill, replying to Old Bill, 41, #248 of 616 🔗

I have never thought of myself as a particularly intelligent person, nor a particularly dumb one, but if I live to be old enough to make Methuselah look like an acned teenager, I will never understand the attitude of the lockdown lovers or ‘covid cockroaches’ as I tend to call them – scurrying around in an armour of masks and gloves and hiding out of the way behind the nearest rock when another human being approaches them.

Surely in the history of human existence there has never been another time when the enslaved have fought tooth and nail to strengthen the shackles of their own oppression? Even more incomprehensible when the agent of that oppression – the covid pandemic ( aptly named if you remove the d,e and m) is so weak that simply ignoring it will result in its defeat.

I want to thank you, Toby, for producing this site which is my only link to sanity in these times. I might usually be found reading the BBC news, but so horrific has it become that I submit that if be renamed the PPC news instead – the public propaganda committee, or ministry of truth if you read Orwell.

So thanks again and please keep up the sterling job you are doing until normality returns or I slit my wrists, whichever comes first.

5817 ▶▶ Jonathan Castro, replying to Old Bill, 10, #249 of 616 🔗

Don’t do that. Come around to my place for a drink

6364 ▶▶▶ Old Bill, replying to Jonathan Castro, #250 of 616 🔗

Thank you that is a very kind offer. Unfortunately, I have had to give up drinking, as, wearing this mask all the time, most of it ends up in my lap.

5860 ▶▶ ianp, replying to Old Bill, 4, #251 of 616 🔗

“…the rank and file are usually much more primitive than we imagine. Propaganda must therefore always be essentially simple and repetitious.”

– Joseph Goebbels

5801 Gillian, replying to Gillian, 5, #252 of 616 🔗

Twice recently (including tonight’s press conference) Boris Johnson has incorrectly used the word “virus” when referring to “vaccine” (he corrected himself tonight but the earlier occasion went uncorrected). Is there something behind this?

5806 ▶▶ Sceptic, replying to Gillian, #253 of 616 🔗

He might know something we dont! 🙂

5807 ▶▶ Sceptic, replying to Gillian, #254 of 616 🔗

Do they show a replay anywhere?

5803 Oaks79, replying to Oaks79, #255 of 616 🔗

Did Sir Patrick Vallance say 10% of Londoners tested positive for antibodies?

5854 ▶▶ guy153, replying to Oaks79, 7, #256 of 616 🔗

Interesting. I found this:


Dated May 5th. It says, “Sir Patrick Vallance told MPs on the Health and Social Care Committee that data from around five weeks ago suggested “something like a 10% antibody positivity in London”, with 3% to 4% antibody positivity in other regions and even less in some areas.”

It takes about 5 weeks after infection to test positive for antibodies, and about 3 weeks to die. If the test was done 5 weeks before May 5th, that would be 10% positive in London on April 7th. Let’s call that 5% for the whole country on average. The number dead two weeks before that (March 24) was 508. That works out to an IFR of only 0.02%.

If it takes 4 weeks for antibodies to appear rather than 5, that gives us an 0.08% IFR.

It usually takes about 4 or 5 weeks after infection to test positive, and 3 weeks to die, but these are all estimates, and they’re about the peak time to test positive (or to die). But you can see what a big difference a week makes in the numbers dead right in the middle of the epidemic.

This is why it would be better to do another antibody study now that things have settled down. But 10% on April 7th means we’re well up to herd immunity now based on the numbers dead then and now.

But I can find no actual published study confirming these results, who was tested, and when exactly it was done.

5826 justinErtia, 4, #257 of 616 🔗

What a wonderful bookshelf Paul Weston had. The Madness of Crowds jostling for position with Naom Chomsky and Anne Coulter. There was Mark Steyn; there was Gulag and then there was Naked Socialist!
If only he had placed Ray Bradbury’s Fahrenheit 451 in the milieu of inflammatory literature, the book-burning censors would have had a field day 😉

5829 Simon, #258 of 616 🔗

My lockdown theme tune has been “Message From Our Sponsor – Jello Biafra”. It’s quite easy to have some fun with the lyrics yourself.


5831 Oaks79, replying to Oaks79, 6, #259 of 616 🔗

An epidemic is declared if the surveillance rate exceeds 40 per 10,000, but the new figures suggest it is between 24 and three in 10,000


6083 ▶▶ Cbird, replying to Oaks79, #260 of 616 🔗

This is also in today’s Telegraph. Interesting that it mentions the Porton Down study

5832 AN other lockdown sceptic, #261 of 616 🔗

Steve Attridge on the money as ever –

‘Covid 19, Delusions and Shakespeare. Where next?

Covid 19 has been the vehicle for deluding people into a passive state. It is like an enchantment, which is something Shakespeare understood so powerfully. We can learn a lot from him about what is happening now.’


5848 ▶▶ Snake Oil Pussy, replying to Riffman, 1, #263 of 616 🔗

Sadly I am not on Fakebook. They don’t seem to like vicious little predators that leave half-eaten mice on the carpet.

5855 ▶▶ ianp, replying to Riffman, 5, #264 of 616 🔗

Ha… They just don’t get it do they? We need to show them the way.

By simply ignoring the specifics and carrying on as normal

The government cannot say this until they see that people are basically ignoring it, which they will do in greater numbers ..

MSM are turning, and it’s a race for them as well, without losing too much face. Last one pushing FEAR is going to get eaten alive for breakfast, lunch, and evening dinner when the recriminations come

5834 Biker, 25, #265 of 616 🔗

I accept nothing more than the total return to normality this instance. I care not a jot for anyone else’s fear of the virus and i’m not to blame if i spread it. I’ve got shit to be getting on with and this hold up may suit the cowards but not me.

5837 ds, replying to ds, 7, #266 of 616 🔗

You have commented a few times that anti-lockdown petitions have been taken down by the government for review never to see the light of day. I have started one on change.org and would be grateful if as many of you as possible can sign. The link is here. Many thanks http://chng.it/HXLhGnnT

5846 ▶▶ Snake Oil Pussy, replying to ds, 1, #267 of 616 🔗

Done it

5867 ▶▶ Back To Normal, replying to ds, 2, #268 of 616 🔗

I signed your petition.
I also have petitions on the parliamentary petitions site waiting to be approved – one to “End the COVID-19 lockdown” and one to “End COVID-19 social distancing”. Officially they are both “being checked to make sure they meet the petition standards”. Still waiting for that to happen.
Good luck with your petition – the more the merrier I say.

5838 RDawg, replying to RDawg, 55, #269 of 616 🔗

In case any of you are still worried, I want to make this abundantly clear:

– Social distancing WILL NEVER become the “new normal”
– Pubs, restaurants, cafes, gyms, cinemas WILL all reopen
– Normal life WILL resume once again

Read the above and repeat over. This is nothing more than a panicked overreaction (massively magnified by the fear mongering MSM) and will one day be looked back upon and laughed at.

People will tire of the madness, the worry, the insanity…because it is just not sustainable and no longer scientifically credible. It make take a little time (maybe several months), but I promise you all, normal life WILL eventually resume. Do not listen to anyone else who tells you otherwise.

Have faith. We will be free once again.

5844 ▶▶ ianp, replying to RDawg, #270 of 616 🔗

Certain changes will come though. I am convinced that the long game is for us to be ‘greener’. Not a bad thing per se.

But we mustn’t lose our freedom or liberty

Case in point, as I got in the car to visit a relative yesterday, what did I get when I switched on Google satnav… An android auto update! Seriously, spooked me right out. What timing eh?

Read the fine print… All sorts of stuff about collecting info about miles, location, gear, even if it detected a passenger in your car (a heavy shopping bag will do that…lol)

Didn’t accept it. But essentially track and trace is already coming, but hopefully not for what people think (some bloody sniffles)

Some coincidence eh…?

5858 ▶▶ Amy, replying to RDawg, 10, #271 of 616 🔗

“You’ve already voted for this comment”
I wish I could give this a million thumbs up! My emotions are so near the surface these days it actually brought a tear to my eye. I needed to hear this.

5871 ▶▶ Gillian, replying to RDawg, 5, #272 of 616 🔗

Thanks Mr Dawg. I need to hear this reassuring wisdom constantly. I’m glad I found this site. I no longer watch or listen to MSM. Too depressing.

5875 ▶▶ guy153, replying to RDawg, 4, #273 of 616 🔗

Well said!

5883 ▶▶ Sheltielass, replying to RDawg, 14, #274 of 616 🔗

This is what I really need to hear just now. I hate the term emotional rollercoaster but it’s the only way I can describe everyday just now. I wake up every morning, full of hope that its going to be a good day and by the time I’m thinking of heading to bed the negativity just hits me.
I consider myself lucky. I have a partner and child. We are fit and healthy and since March just muddled through life as best we could. But now with the threat of redundancy hanging over my partners head, 7 weeks of queuing to get into a supermarket and 7 weeks of my son missing his friends I just feel enough is enough.
At least in England you guys have an idea of what is happening and when. In Scotland we just have no idea what’s going on. How long it will be until we get our “reward” for being good boys and girls from following lockdown.
But I have faith that normality will be resumed and one thing thats keeping me going is when all the facts and figures concerning infections, deaths and the cost to the economy I will be sitting there smugly when the politicians realise they have egg on their face.
Thank you RDawg for helping me stay positive this evening 😀

5934 ▶▶▶ RDawg, replying to Sheltielass, 21, #275 of 616 🔗

I am pleased I helped you feel positive. In fact, I would put money on everyone in this forum being at a very busy non socially-distanced NYE party come 31st December and at 23:59 saying, “Well thank goodness that’s 2020 behind us.”

The truth is slowly coming out, as more and more scientific studies are emerging which are disproving the hype and showing it is no more dangerous than a potent flu.

We have a Conservative Government and love them or loathe them, they simply will not allow us to go bankrupt. It just won’t happen. Boris may come across as a clown, but beneath his exterior is actually quite a smart man who appreciates we need a functioning economy and we need to live our lives as normal, happy, free human beings.

My advice: stop watching the news and stay off social media. It’s all nonsense. You’ll feel so much better for it, I promise you.

5947 ▶▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to RDawg, 2, #276 of 616 🔗


5977 ▶▶▶▶ Lilly, replying to RDawg, 3, #277 of 616 🔗

More important than communicating in the twittersphere or faecesbook, have polite words with people you pass, from a 2 metre distance, while out. What people hear in the real world they’ll pay much more atenton to than they will to one rational comment amid thousands of zealot ravings in a zealot run facebook thread. And give them a 30 second anti-lockdown-lecture, right after you’ve helepd them do something like negotiate a door without having to touch it. Start with saying how we could have fixed this whole viral trouble using just the subtle distancing and good hygiene methods, then with them re-assured that lockdown isn’t needed for saving lives get staretd on all the harms it is doing.

6109 ▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Lilly, 1, #278 of 616 🔗

Hope you think “Its’s all a load of bollox, innit ?” is polite enough, Lilly. 🙂

6057 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Sheltielass, 5, #279 of 616 🔗

I echo your sentiments Sheltilass. This site has been a welcome refuge from the hysteria-mongers of MSM. And the wit of its contributors has provided me with much needed laughs also!

My commiserations on the added misfortune of being saddled with Ms Sturgeon!

5885 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to RDawg, 5, #280 of 616 🔗

Agree, we just need a plan, and need to start thinking now, about making sure they can never ever ever do it again. After watching Kier’s constipated performance on the TV, and ol’ Nicola, I don’t think we can expect any political or media honesty any time soon. So, we need some hard hitting lawyers and backers, and somebody grown up needs to take control of the narrative, and we have to be certain there are mechanisms in place that prevent them doing a repeat performance. Once we’re out, I am never going back in!

5906 ▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to RDawg, 3, #281 of 616 🔗

Yeah, maybe, but several months is several too far, we all want a decent summer and boy, on hot days, I’m pining for my ice-cold beer on the lawn of the fairly large hotel next to me.

5939 ▶▶▶ RDawg, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 5, #282 of 616 🔗

Nigel, I actually think it will be sooner. I think life should be heading back to normal by end of July. Schools back in September. By October the panic will have settled and things will begin to pick up, especially as we head into the Christmas spirit.

I’m gonna go one further and predict an economic boom in 2021. There is a certain psychological reset that comes with the start of a new year, and I have a feeling 2021 is gonna be a great year. 😀

6200 ▶▶▶▶ Amy, replying to RDawg, #283 of 616 🔗

One thing I am worried about, however, is the looming presidential election in November here in the States. Certainly many states will opt for mail-in balloting, which will lead to claims of fraud. It was set to be a contentious election from the start: now add a pandemic. I doubt we’ll have an answer by January, which is when the inauguration takes place.

6002 ▶▶ Poppy, replying to RDawg, 5, #284 of 616 🔗

Thank you for your optimism and I do hope you’re right. Nothing annoys me more than all these middle-class journalists writing about how ‘the new normal’ will change society, while sat in their cushy ivory towers tapping away at MacBooks. The continued ‘social distancing’ measures are inhumane, misanthropic, catastrophically destructive (both economically and socially), and go against our most basic humanity.

6065 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to RDawg, 3, #285 of 616 🔗

Many thanks for this and I would like to echo what others have said. Its easy for people who live in big houses with gardens or a good area where there are places to go and they don’t have to worry about being stabbed or mugged not to mention cushioned by wealth and good jobs to pontificate about the “new normal” when its actually not. It’s sinister and designed to control and rob us of our humanity.
I swing between optimism and pessimism but ultimately I believe that sanity and truth will prevail in the end.

5851 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 3, #286 of 616 🔗

Another non lockdown country success Georgia

5873 ▶▶ guy153, replying to swedenborg, 3, #287 of 616 🔗

I would be a little wary of the reported death counts from some of these places like Belarus and Georgia. They may be tempted, having seen the chaos and panic in the rest of the world, to basically not do any testing and tell everyone it’s all fine and under control. If you’ve already seen how the lockdowns are going in other places and decided you’re not going to join in with the madness there’s no point doing any tests. They don’t really help for actually treating anyone.

Any country that hasn’t closed its borders and/or done TTT from the start is going to end up with about the same PFR as anywhere else, adjusted for age, R0, etc.

Belarus will therefore end up with somewhere around 4000 to 5000 deaths with Covid, not 135. It’s possible that the epidemic is only just starting there. BCG vaccinations might help a bit but not by a factor of 30.

Another interesting country is Greece. Spain and Italy seem if anything to want to exaggerate things a bit, perhaps to get more help from the EU. But Greece, which is often lumped in the same bucket as a relatively impoverished EU nation, has apparently decided not to have much of an epidemic. I wonder why that is, conspiracy theories please!

5897 ▶▶▶ Snake Oil Pussy, replying to guy153, 4, #288 of 616 🔗

I too would be a little wary of reported death counts from places like these, but have faith that if the death rate in a no-lockdown scenario was anything like the Imperial projections for the UK, people would know if their local hospitals were overwhelmed with cases and everyone in their social circle know someone who had died, so reports would get out. These countries are not North Korea; I have been to Belarus and was due to travel to Georgia this year.
I would suspect that they, and Greece, are having just as many cases as anywhere else, but treating it as “just another” respiratory disease.

5930 ▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, 2, #289 of 616 🔗

Yes it should be just like everywhere else. But hospitals really weren’t overwhelmed all that much anywhere (at least not more than usual). If we hadn’t been testing for this or looking at statistics we quite likely wouldn’t have even noticed it.

6009 ▶▶▶▶ Maria, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, 3, #290 of 616 🔗

I live in Greece. We were in lockdown from middle of March until 4th of May and the schools are still closed from February. We started lockdown when the deaths were about 10. Post lockdown life is awful too. Shops are open with strict rules. Cafes and restaurants won’t open until June and customers will be allowed in outdoor tables only and only 4 people per table. Masks are mandatory in many cases. People are relatively not afraid. Squares are crowded, beaches too. Children playing outside all together. But all this rules will destroy us. I don’t know how greek economy will survive. Greek media are all aligned with the government. I haven’t read a single article that questions all this crap. As for myself I work from home two months now and my mental state is getting worse day by day.

5909 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to guy153, 1, #291 of 616 🔗

Honestly? I think it might be something as simple as population density but in a very specific way.

Islands. Most of the country’s population is spread across islands. Most of the population live in small towns and villages not cities. They have literally ONE mega-city – Athens – and even Athens isn’t in the league of London or New York.

Yes, they still have an ageing population and multi-generational households, like Spain or Italy – but……

Plus, you’d expect they would pick up much of their infection – again, like Spain and Italy – from tourism. But only really in Athens. BUT— it’s not main tourist season in Greece yet. And – unlike Spain and Italy – the cities of Greece don’t really seem to be those ‘city break’ sort of cultural destinations that people go to as much off-season like, say…..Florence or Barcelona.

Plus Greeks especially on the islands work OUTSIDE more often than not. They spend most of their lives OUTSIDE. Even in Winter.

Having lived large chunks of my life in Greece from being a kid….. I dunno, my gut kind of tells me there’s a logic to them not really getting hit as hard as the rest of us. I’m sure I’ve heard a few scientists presenting evidence that suggests population density and social factors haven’t had much of an impact but….. how can they not have? I mean if you’ve got a city full of tenement blocks, crowded subway trains and unventilated offices…..

6107 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Farinances, #292 of 616 🔗

The sea is very healthy. Italy/Spain had problems inland, not near the coast.

I like Greece – fried eggs, fried cheese, and beer for breakfast. 🙂

5923 ▶▶▶ swedenborg, replying to guy153, 3, #293 of 616 🔗

Actually not correct about Belarus.They have done quite substantial testing and even the WHO delegation visiting them agreed that they were doing that and many traditional public health actions like isolation etc but not social distancing a la WHO. Belarus was rather early affected with Covid-19 and are just now declining their cases. It can be other reasons for lower death rate in Belarus and Russia substantial use of chloroquine.Naturally dictators like Lukashenko can be tempted to falsify death rates and he could easily learn that both from US and the UK.

5938 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to swedenborg, 1, #294 of 616 🔗

Belarus played a blinder. Who knew.

5869 Oaks79, replying to Oaks79, 18, #295 of 616 🔗

So Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland are to stay at home.

Sounds more like the World Cup Finals to me 🤔 🤣 😂

5888 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Oaks79, 4, #296 of 616 🔗

You are a bad person, Oaks79. 🙂

5911 ▶▶ mhcp, replying to Oaks79, 2, #297 of 616 🔗

It’s getting into marching season in the North. Orangemen going to love that.

5975 ▶▶ Lilly, replying to Oaks79, 1, #298 of 616 🔗

Keep reminding them of that little metaphor of yours, it might encourage the populations trapped in those places to start un-lockdown-ing themselves and get their leaders to give up on extension, at which point the whole UK will be a much better position to put our best foot forward and get our lives back without the spineless whitehall government having to live in fear of regional governments trying to game politics with their people’s jobs and freedoms.

5870 karate56, replying to karate56, 10, #299 of 616 🔗

Over the course of this lockdown, people clap the NHS in groups of complete strangers. We’ve just had VE day celebrations, where street parties were pictured in the national media showing neighbours (different households) together. The government has not once sanctioned against this, its never been remotely mentioned as being against the rules. So why in the 50 page pile of crap are we now told we can only get within 2m of one “stranger” in an outdoor setting? The magic R number has decreased, the number of deaths decreased, the number of infections decreased, yet we seem to have a more draconian measure imposed at a time when things are supposedly better pandemic wise. Am I missing something? Is this a government oversight or usual incompetence? Either way, how the hell can they possibly have a hope of enforcing a new restriction that we’ve already been breaking since day one anyway that the government never gave a shit about?

5877 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to karate56, 6, #300 of 616 🔗

I think, and this might be the point, they have no intention of enforcing it. Utterly cowardly I agree, but that’s what I took from what he said.

5893 ▶▶▶ coalencanth12, replying to BecJT, 6, #301 of 616 🔗

I’d also had the impression that this document transfers some of the risk onto us, and gives some wriggle room for the magic R to be manipulated. Certain Prime ministers during my lifetime would certainly have pursued such a tactic. I also suspect this quarantine nonsense will be riddled with enough holes for businesses and possibly some tour operators to manipulate, but allowing the government to transfer some of the risk onto the traveller…

5895 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to coalencanth12, 3, #302 of 616 🔗

Exactly. It’s kinda the best of both worlds for the gvt. They have actually been clever if this is purposeful….. I’m still not sure it is. It’s more than likely still just an arse-cover, but I suppose it operates in the same whether intentional or not. Or, at least, they hope it will.

5900 ▶▶▶▶▶ coalencanth12, replying to Farinances, 3, #303 of 616 🔗

I was thinking along the same lines. I hope that this quarantine proposal is full of holes anyway as otherwise this directly and negatively affects international projects I’m involved in, including, ironically, a vaccine development project. Not to mention many of my colleagues are from Europe/USA, many of whom will have to decide on their long term futures in this country if they can’t travel easily. Allowing international travel just to France (Ireland is a separate issue..) will also stoke international resentment..

5941 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Sceptic, replying to coalencanth12, #304 of 616 🔗

A lot of expats I know are planning to go ‘home’ even though they haven’t lived there for years. This looks like a Pandora type event that won’t be going away anytime soon.

5960 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ RDawg, replying to coalencanth12, 3, #305 of 616 🔗

The 14 day quarantine thing will be pulled within a month tops. The U.K. relies on tourism (it’s 10% of our GDP) and they’ve just approved a third runway at Heathrow and a second at Gatwick.

It’s a laughable idea that will be dismissed and as we know, this govt has a long history of very fast U-turns. It’s a plan that will never take off (pun intended)!

5948 ▶▶▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Farinances, 1, #306 of 616 🔗

Farinances… Oh it IS on purpose. Read an earlier post of mine

5894 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to BecJT, 5, #307 of 616 🔗

I must admit I was REALLY happy that one of the first police saps to throw his hands up and cry ‘unenforceable’ was the West Yorkshire guy. Because that is where I am and I like the idea of not being enforced.

5902 ▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to BecJT, 3, #308 of 616 🔗

I asked this somewhere else: so why has he/have they increased the fine for non compliance? That doesn’t send the same signal.

5992 ▶▶▶▶ karate56, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 2, #309 of 616 🔗

I agree. I seriously doubt the government is clever enough to be that ambiguous on purpose. I genuinely believe they have put this new household measure out as a rule to be enforced, not for us to flout with their silent agreement. We’ll soon see, as I very much intend to flout it but I fear I will actually be fined. If so, this impression of government being purposely vague to help ease the lockdown is not true and we really do have to fight against it. The fine rise says it all, it is utterly vindictive and doesn’t fit in with a government easing the lockdown with vague subtlety.

6252 ▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to karate56, #310 of 616 🔗

I don’t think they’ll be enforcing it. Increasing a fine is just PR.

(Whatever, I shall be flouting as hard as I can, too. 🙂 ).

5880 coalencanth12, replying to coalencanth12, 17, #311 of 616 🔗

I had a few of the dreaded ‘Zoom’ teleconferences today. Almost everyone felt BoJo’s speech fell flat – by admission most of my colleagues fall into the Labour/Lib Dem bracket, even the Tories weren’t very impressed. Most felt it was simply legitimising what most people were doing anyway. I completely agree with other commentators here that this ‘new’ normal cannot be tolerated and will be our next battleground. It is an anti-human imposition that fundamentally seeks to destroy our society and economy. I get the feeling a few journalists are clocking on to this. I feel the two pronged route to our salvation will be narking off the chattering classes and media types, who will soon tire of this horse manure – if they were ever obeying the rules in the first place – and the decreasing tolerance of big business for idiocy like fourteen day quarantines. Each society will have its elastic limit. Hopefully a few photos in the Sun or Mail of our European cousins enjoying freedom will change things – imagine the horror and headlines – the Teutonic foe stealing all the space at the Spanish beaches whilst Brits are stuck in our miserable island!!!

5892 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to coalencanth12, 10, #312 of 616 🔗

Honestly I think this could all end over the 14 day holiday quarantine thing. What will the middle classes do without their ever-loving ability to just flit off on a plane to somewhere hot at short notice?

5903 ▶▶▶ coalencanth12, replying to Farinances, 4, #313 of 616 🔗

Spot on! Not to mention holiday homes. Which is probably why this idea is meeting some resistance from the chattering classes…

6062 ▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to coalencanth12, 2, #314 of 616 🔗

Depressing to think that that would be their motivation. Chucking the economy under a bus – fine. But god, don’t imperil our three-weeker in Tuscany!

5896 Jonathan Castro, 5, #315 of 616 🔗

Use your common sense – ignore the senseless lock-down!

5898 Stephen McMurray, replying to Stephen McMurray, 34, #316 of 616 🔗

The UK column news report today had a SAGE document which said that some people don’t feel threatened enough by the virus and I quote ‘the perceived level of personal threat needs to be increased amongst those who are complacent by using hard-hitting emotional message’. They suggest using the media to ‘increase the sense of personal thereat’. They also suggested turning encouraging ‘social disapproval’ ie getting the public to turn against each other.

Notice it also says use emotional messages to instil fear not facts.
This is disgraceful.It is an advisory group linked to the big pharma telling the government and media to instil fear in the British public to push through their agenda. Basically this is a coup and the government are no longer in charge of the country and, by definition , proves the facts and figure we age being given has no basis in fact it is there to cause fear.

In a normal world there would be criminal charges being brought and
it would bring down the government. Is anyone in the legal profession going to pursue this? Is there any politician with any morals at all that is going to challenge this?

5925 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Stephen McMurray, 6, #317 of 616 🔗

Ok this is actually VILE and I hope Simon Dolan and his team have seen it

5926 ▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Stephen McMurray, 3, #318 of 616 🔗

This has been going on, in various guises, for a long time. Thank you for pointing it out in this instance.

5983 ▶▶ wendyk, replying to Stephen McMurray, 4, #319 of 616 🔗

This is an example of the nudging strategy now popular in government circles.

5999 ▶▶ Tarquin Von Starheim, replying to Stephen McMurray, 1, #320 of 616 🔗

Is there a link to said Sage document anywhere?

6248 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Mike, #322 of 616 🔗

Thanks Mike, nice one.

6063 ▶▶▶ Stephen McMurray, replying to Tarquin Von Starheim, 3, #323 of 616 🔗

You can watch the uk colum news for 11.05.20 on youtube and it shows you the actual document.

6042 ▶▶ Pebbles, replying to Stephen McMurray, 3, #324 of 616 🔗

It will be pursued with enough public pressure from US and getting leading figures on our side, ie the former Supreme Court judge mention on inproportion website who questioned lockdown from the beginning.

5899 Winston Smith, replying to Winston Smith, #325 of 616 🔗

So, I got a reply to my complaint to the BBC regarding this article…… https://www.bbc.com/news/health-52447387

5913 ▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Winston Smith, 1, #326 of 616 🔗

my complaint read……
Bugger, I seem to have mislaid it….

Basically, I felt that they sensationalised the story and that the consequence that parents wouldn’t go to hospital or seek help for fear the Chinese Killer Virus just in case their children would catch it.

Their response was –

Reference CAS-6040623-V7B7Q5

Dear Mr ‘Smith’,

Thank you for contacting us regarding the BBC News website article “Coronavirus: ‘My son had symptoms of rare syndrome’” by Michelle Roberts.

We note that you feel that this article was misleading. This article was focused on informing readers of a condition which appears similar to
Kawasaki disease which doctors are warning may be linked to the coronavirus. The US, UK and France have all reported significant increases in cases of the rare condition, which it is believed may be an autoimmune response triggered by an infection. Sadly, since publication, New York have reported three child deaths due to the condition.

The Lancet has published the below on what is described as an ‘unprecedented cluster of eight children’ with the symptoms:


The article ends with Marley’s mother imploring parents to take their children to hospital if they are seriously ill and her hope that sharing her story will help other parents who may face a similar situation.

You can find more information about this new illness in children across the UK and its links to coronavirus by reading the following article on the BBC News website:


We appreciate your feedback on this article which we have raised with senior BBC News staff.

Thanks, once again for taking the time to contact us.

Kind regards,

Catherine Leonard

BBC Complaints Team

5919 ▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Winston Smith, 1, #327 of 616 🔗

The imploring of parents was 2 lines at the end of the article, most people wouldn’t have got that far. I suggested that it would have been better to have led with that imploring first or follow up that up with a feature in the following days.

5935 ▶▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Winston Smith, 2, #328 of 616 🔗

At first glance, all eight of the children had a raging pyrexia that had been left for days before transfer or retrieval to picu. That would suggest that the parents were unwilling or unable to seek medical help.

One child tested positive to SARS-CoV-2, the other 7 seven were negative.

Interesting but conclusive.

Warning GP’s and parents about sepsis in children is always a good thing, they go off really quickly…….

5940 ▶▶▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Winston Smith, #329 of 616 🔗

I don’t think I can be bothered replying to Catherine 🙁

5944 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Winston Smith, #330 of 616 🔗

bugger, the spellchecker changed “Interesting but inconclusive.” to “Interesting but conclusive.”

Sorry to Toby for mischievously poking fun at his The The typo……

5901 Gracie Knoll, replying to Gracie Knoll, 20, #331 of 616 🔗


Further to my earlier comment about the MSM and its employees committing corporate and personal career suicide by fearmongering the continuation of lockdown; thereby trashing the economy and their own (and their kids’ and grandkids’) jobs and futures –


Think about it, journalists and presenters! If you keep on with what you’re doing now, you and your family will soon be queueing outside the soup kitchen with all the other unemployed derelicts. AND you’ll have to keep your past career VERY quiet if you know what’s good for you!


If you change course NOW, think of the possibilities! You can keep the fear porn going – in fact you can take it to hitherto unscaled heights – by fearporning the lockdown!


You can even have a daily running total of how many businesses have closed, how many suicides have taken place, how many locked-in husbands have beaten their wife and kids to death, how many people have died from late diagnosis of cancer, how many people have died from being too scared to go to hospital with chest pain because of the Black Death in the hospital… the possibilities are endless!

And think – you’ll get great ratings! You’ll sell loads of advertising!! Not only will you keep your jobs but you might get a bonus!! And the people will LOVE you when it’s all over because you’ll have saved the country! Hell, they might even think about renewing their TV licences!

COME ON! FEARPORN THE LOCKDOWN! You know it makes sense!

5904 ▶▶ Amy, replying to Gracie Knoll, 4, #332 of 616 🔗

That is the interesting thing though – they’re shooting themselves in the foot. Advertising revenue is way down.

6047 ▶▶▶ Letmeout, replying to Amy, 1, #333 of 616 🔗

Good. As long as ITV goes bust and takes Piers Mirgan with it I’ll be happy

5921 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Gracie Knoll, 2, #334 of 616 🔗

If only they’d apply the same Project Fear rhetoric they piled on about Brexit to this…..

I mean, it’s perfect. You could practically transpose everything they said about Brexit onto this— only this time, it would be true! 🙂

5929 ▶▶ A13, replying to Gracie Knoll, #335 of 616 🔗

’Fearporn’ reminded me of Bill Maher’s show from a few weeks ago called ’panic porn’

5974 ▶▶ Lilly, replying to Gracie Knoll, 2, #336 of 616 🔗

Wonder what it would take to set up a YouTube livestream running off a little home server somewhere which plays ominous music while displaying totals of business closures and un-necessary deaths as they rack up on some openely available public records data somewhere? This was done a while back in the early days of the pandemic, before even the time that the panicdemic started to surround it, for the case and death count of the virus, you could have it in a tab constnaly playing foreboding music and showing totals. Would be nice to see about turning the fear-hunting people around to seeing a more dangerous thing to be scared of than the virus itself.

6073 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to Gracie Knoll, 5, #337 of 616 🔗

Agreed. I listen to LBC and I’ve noticed the number of (very annoying) adverts have diminished in recent weeks though in their place are the doom-mongering government entreaties to “Stay Alert, blah, blah, blah”

Just another thought, am I imagining this or did I read somewhere that ‘Spitting Image’ was making a comeback? Oh, how we need a bit of biting satire right now. If I recall they used to have a skit in the early 80s of ‘Trevor McDonald’ announcing that one job had been created in the whole country. Perhaps they could do a take on that with say “here’s the one business that survived the lockdown” or something similar. And I bet they would have a field-day with a certain early morning breakfast programme presenter!

5905 Tony Rattray, replying to Tony Rattray, 15, #338 of 616 🔗

healthcare workers have been no more likely to die than other workers

As already discussed here, below report confirms healthcare (nhs) workers have been no more likely to die than other workers. However, social care workers (eg care homes) twice as likely, etc.


So instead of continuing to clap the nhs every week (which, as reported elsewhere, it can now be argued is costing more lives that it is actually saving through its fixation on covid management), instead let the uk population hang their heads in shame for the cohort of society that was actually most at risk all along – care homes, which are now approaching 50% of covid deaths in scotland, but largely ignored early on by the uk governments due to their nhs mantra. And never a real priority for public debate, alternative provision and change in the past.

At least going forward, there may now finally be a proper review of social care services. However, due to those state paid on-going public holidays for the “worried well” with all their rainbow banners, there may in fact no longer be the funding to do so in the foreseeable future…

5945 ▶▶ Sceptic, replying to Tony Rattray, #339 of 616 🔗

I watch the National Theatre plays on utube anyway. Every Thursday live at 7pm.

5915 BobT, replying to BobT, 45, #340 of 616 🔗


Let me give you a tiny glimpse of what has been done to the rest of the world by the completely unreasoned, knee jerk reactions by the British Government to this SARS2 influenza outbreak from the viewpoint of this little island I live on.

Colonial rule, which included the unimagiable horror of slavery, ended in the 1970’s because the sugar cane industry collapsed and the British had no further economic use for us. The island was left a shambles with the populace in abject poverty, no roads and very little other infrastructure.

Independence brought a new sense of self determination and people worked their asses off to build infrastructure along with a new industry which would provide a better standard of living. The industry of course is Tourism which, although it has its drawbacks, has successfully raised the quality of life of most people far above what it was. Most everyone now has a decent house with running water, electricity, telephone, internet, cars, roads, better education and much more importantly, freedom from oppression.

Well, this 50 years of hard work now amounts to nought by the completely out of proportion actions of OTHER Governments. Of course our Government do still have a loyalty to the ‘Mother Country’ and follow their leadership. After all, we are still subjects of HRH. So they proceeded to impose curfews and other restrictions on people in the same manner as the English Government. Encouragingly, there is significant pushback here and resrictions are being lifted because people are worried about losing some of their hard fought for freedoms.

Other Governments’ over the top, emtionally driven, decisions have left us in the following unenviable situation.

The new international airport we built as a huge investment into our tourist industry is now closed. No flights, zero. Families are separated, children are either stuck overseas or at home and cannot continue their education at overseas high schools and Universities. Travel anywhere is out of the question until the airlines decide to start flying again which of course is totally out of our control. Even when flights do start back it looks like the silly social distancing rules will mean that planes have to fly half empty hence fares will become unaffordable.

Cruise ship visits (one of our staples) have stopped and are unlikely to return any time soon. Taxi operators businesses gone, attractions businesses evaporated, berthing fees, head tax, all lost.

Hotels all closed until when? All staff and supply chain workers jobless. No furlough scheme here, no massive government spending schemes. Government has no money and 90% of its tax income gone so it cannot borrow any in any case. Cannot print money either. So its everyone back to square one……poverty.

This is a very short summary of the damage done here. I cannot imagine or comprehend the damage to peoples lives or livelihoods in India, the poorer African countries, Central America, Venezuela! for gods sake.

What the hell have we done and who do I blame? Professor Pantsdown, WHO, the lilly livered British population, no, I blame Boris! Yesterday he could have had his Churchill moment and called this whole thing off and then we could at least have some hope of recovery in a few months time.

Instead, I am left in despair.

5932 ▶▶ The Man at the Back, replying to BobT, 10, #341 of 616 🔗

Hell Bob, All I can do is say sorry, which is no damn good to you. The devastation in all our economies is going to be immense, but obviously with more severe outcome for you.
There is an agenda behind this I am sure. The Very Best of Wishes

6001 ▶▶ TJN, replying to BobT, 14, #342 of 616 🔗

What I find particularly nauseating in all this is how the bulk of the British people seem so oblivious to the knock-on effects to vast regions of the world which depend ultimately on Western economies. It makes me feel ashamed.

6049 ▶▶▶ Gracie Knoll, replying to TJN, 2, #343 of 616 🔗

I mentioned a while back, the synchronicities piling up around this event. (As least, it seems so to me.)

The cause was a DISEASE from CHINA. The CHINESE word for DISEASE translates into English as “DANGEROUS OPPORTUNITY” or “OPPORTUNITY ON A DANGEROUS WIND”.

The peak of the crisis was EASTER. “Easter” links to oestrus, oestrogen, eggs, bunnies, fertility, resurrection, REBIRTH and RENEWAL.

Ladies and gentlemen, I suggest that Providence may have handed humanity a DANGEROUS time, but one which is a gigantic, perhaps unprecedented, OPPORTUNITY for REBIRTH and RENEWAL.

We have been given a chance to take “the longest stride of soul we ever took”, in the words of Christopher Fry’s inspirational poem “A Sleep of Prisoners” (Check it out.)

We have been given a chance to take everything we have learned from this to make the world better. (Again, I recommend everyone to read or watch on YouTube, Charles Eistenstein’s glorious essay about this crisis, “The Coronation”.)

And PART of this may be a heightened awareness of those “other parts of the world which ultimately depend on Western economies”, and of how our actions impact them – and of what we can do to make this relationship work vastly better for our brothers and sisters in these lands.

“To what a Heaven the Earth might grow
If FEAR beneath the earth were laid;
If Hope failed not, nor Love decayed.”

(William Morris. My emphasis on the word ‘fear’.)

6138 ▶▶▶▶ The Man at the Back, replying to Gracie Knoll, #344 of 616 🔗

You mean the Chinese taking over the World Gracie – good luck with that.

6027 ▶▶ IanE, replying to BobT, 7, #345 of 616 🔗

Yes – this has been truly shameful.

Populations around the world have been so scared by politicians and the MSM that very many have lost all empathy for anyone other than covid-sufferers. I never thought that I would see normally sensible people lose all sense of proportion.

As Charles Mackay famously wrote: “Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, one by one.”

5955 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, #346 of 616 🔗

Deaths are more common among males than females of Covid-19 everywhere. So it seems in the German figures Table 2
Also in Germany more male than female except in the age 90-99 and 100 and over. Rather strange almost double deaths of female compared to males in that very specific age range. Over 100 also the same female dominance. (Yes, unbelievable double deaths in the over 100 years old than ALL deaths under 40 in Germany)
Why? Perhaps females live longer than men and hence more of them to be affected by Covid-19 but are we sure about such a skewed sex ratio in that age interval? Could it be another reason for male Germans over 90 surviving and a more sinister, political incorrect reason for that, survival of the fittest? These elderly Germans must have been very young men drafted into the German army at the end of the war. Many ended up in Russian prison camps with 10 % survival rate after starvation, typhus etc and just to survive that final year in the war must have taken a big toll. Of course, pure speculation.

5984 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to swedenborg, 5, #347 of 616 🔗

There are simply more old ladies over 90 than old men over 90.

6105 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Farinances, 1, #348 of 616 🔗

Men/women, or ladies/gentlemen, Farinances.

Despite the times, we mustn’t let standards drop. 🙂

5973 Lilly, replying to Lilly, 14, #349 of 616 🔗

I don’t trust Boris to stick to his, currently very sensible looking, exit plan from lockdown, but if what the Telegraph seems to think Boris is up to is his real plan then there might be some hope.


Seems the French are also looking to a “be sensible” exit plan, so they might be ramping down their extremist (printed permits and all) lockdown too. And if they’re ramping down Boris would be in a harder position to do anything as maniacal as going backward in a return to more extreme measures.

I think what we need to be focusing on particularly now is making sure that the public sees all the recent harm as a consequence of lockdown, not of the virus itself, and seeing about a “constitution” of some kind in the Uk to guarantee that NEVER AGAIN will our liberties be so squandered in pursuit of appeasing a panic (or in pursuit of anything else). For the 70% of Brits who apparently can’t work out that being sensible means simply reducing any contact with others that even they think they don’t particularly need and being rigourous in hygiene it is up to us to show the way, and never let them forget what dangers the lockdown zealots were, and still are, sleepwalking us into. Better diseased than under a dictatorship I say.

The real battle has begun now, to show that we can avoid any significantly serious spread without needing draconian abuses being perpetrated against us. And to ensure that there can be no return to the worst parts of lockdown whatever the pesky virus may do next.

If anyone is interested in compiling a good list of arguments to get zealous bosses re-opening their workplaces for us fearless few then that would be a good thing to see here in the next few days too.

5976 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Lilly, 4, #350 of 616 🔗

“Only 30% of Britons know what it means”

Are people that dumb?? REALLY?

5981 ▶▶▶ Lilly, replying to Farinances, 7, #351 of 616 🔗

The image I liked, it’s been floating around online in many places, ws a herd of sheep, all masked and begging “Is it safe? can we come outside? Where are the guidelines? We need guidelines! Please! Guidelines”.

6019 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to Farinances, #352 of 616 🔗

Yes, although a more important point is that it is simply platitudinous. I mean noone would ever suggest that one should fall asleep while out and about.

5996 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Lilly, 8, #353 of 616 🔗

It’s like the ‘Tiredness Kills, Take a Break’ signs on the motorway.
One would assume we’re all adult enough to know what it means, and act accordingly. But no…
How tired is tired? How much tired, a bit tired, or really tired? How do I know how tired is tired?
A break? What kind of break, should I sleep, or stretch my legs, have a coffee, how long should the break be?
Aggggh the motorway authorities are trying to kill me, it’s a plot to kill innocent drivers.

I am no Boris supporter, nor indeed a Tory supporter (although am utterly politically homeless right now) but I thought the key thing in their roadmap document (I read all 60 pages of it) is it stressed, in detail, the consequences of lockdown, on the poor, the young, the old, the sick, it even used the words ‘worst recession in 300 years’. Assuming R won’t rise (which they know, odds on it won’t) then the ‘roadmap’ is just window dressing and amounts to ‘don’t have a houseparty and you’ll be fine’. I think the point of that document was to make it clear to the worried well and their spokespeople that it was their move, because of what lockdown is doing.

Agree about never again, and we need to be planning for that now.

6015 ▶▶ Jonathan Castro, replying to Lilly, 7, #354 of 616 🔗

I’m not bothering to read the government’s new little red book.
No government is going to tell me who I can and cannot meet.
Use your common sense – ignore the lockdown!

6033 ▶▶ Jane in France, replying to Lilly, 8, #355 of 616 🔗

Here in France, up till Sunday, you needed a permit which you could print off the Internet, signed and dated, reason and time noted, to go out. You had to be home within the hour. As from Monday, this was no longer the case. Lots of people got round the rules just by printing several permits with different reasons and using a pencil. When I mentioned this to a friend, she reacted like a Facebook mob. She was appalled, appalled. Didn’t people realise we were supposed to stay at home to show solidarity, take pressure off hospitals? How could they be so selfish, so lacking in empathy? This is in the department of the Puy de Dome where so far there have been a total of 38 covid deaths in hospital. (Many more in care homes, though, as in Britain.)
My Algerian neighbour has four kids who haven’t been to school for two months. School is the only place where they can learn French; their parents barely speak it and certainly don’t read or write it. Schools reopened today, in theory, but my neighbour is too scared to let his kids go.

6092 ▶▶▶ Michel, replying to Jane in France, 2, #356 of 616 🔗

Hi Jane, we also live in the Puy de Dome region. We’re Dutch so unlike many french people we don’t rely on the french language for information. We are surprised how little protesting is going on against the lockdown measures or the fear pushing media. Most french people seem to think french actions weren’t severe enough…what happened to the “gilets jaunes”? Do you know if there is any french website like lockdownsceptics?

6103 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Jane in France, 3, #357 of 616 🔗

When I first heard about the French permit nonsense, my first thought was ‘Oh, I’d have several different ones, in different pockets, each with different reasons and times’. Glad to hear lots of others thought the same way. 🙂

6034 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Lilly, 8, #358 of 616 🔗

“I think what we need to be focusing on particularly now is making sure that the public sees all the recent harm as a consequence of lockdown, not of the virus itself, and seeing about a “constitution” of some kind in the Uk to guarantee that NEVER AGAIN will our liberties be so squandered in pursuit of appeasing a panic (or in pursuit of anything else). ”

While the ongoing costs of the lockdown are appalling and ending it should be a priority for everyone, in truth this is what is really most important, if we do not want to live forever under the constant threat of another sudden panic and lockdown.

6043 ▶▶ TJN, replying to Lilly, 6, #359 of 616 🔗

Yes, I’m inclined to agree. There should be something enshrined in law to say that a lockdown can never happen again. I would of course listen to counter arguments, but right now that seems a meaningful goal that might salvage something worthwhile from this almighty mess.

Perhaps Simon Dolan’s impending action will start to tease this out.

5982 wendyk, 11, #360 of 616 🔗

Let us hope that Boris’s master class in ambiguity will indeed put She Who Must Be Obeyed on the back foot: we cannot go to spacious garden centres, but we can cluster round the small very busy plant displays at the local supermarket.

We can go out more, but cannot socialise outdoors with friends, even though identification of approved family relationships would surely stretch the most zealous cops’ resources.

Border crossings might be illegal in certain circumstances, although the border will not be policed: so , drones over Hadrian’s Wall ?

In days of yore, cattle rustling used to go on; now, perhaps we’ll see illicit plant rustling, as desperate gardeners bring their gains back from Northumberland.

Old boy ahead of me at supermarket yesterday was swathed in a grubby scarf so the woman on the till had difficulty understanding him. Scarf duly lowered.

Del Boy and Rodney could well in the farcical confusion in which we now find ourselves.

5985 wendyk, 1, #361 of 616 🔗


A tune for the future- if we don’t start to resist the agitprop

5986 Alci, replying to Alci, 41, #362 of 616 🔗

Two personal anecdotes about impact on child socialising & health:

I’ve arranged two illicit playdates for my three year old, Fran, in the last week (the only ones since lockdown started). Both times there was *huge* excitement our end in advance. Cookies baked, floors cleaned, favourite toys selected.

First: my friend’s previously gregarious four year old would not engage. Fran wanted to take her round the garden. She ran away, wouldn’t make eye contact, only interacted with her mum. We managed half an hour.

Second: Max has been friends since birth, meeting 2-3 times a week at nursery and playdates. In lockdown however, Max has developed a serious aversion to cats, which is an issue with our soppy Burmese. Max screamed non-stop and wanted to be held by his mum while she stood up, despite putting the cat outside and watching him play in the garden. Fran kept hugging him and his mum and offering cookies. After twenty mins we gave up.

No one else we know will meet up (even when nurseries start opening from June). My daughter’s starting to wake at night now. Keeps asking to meet friends. Online is hopeless at her age.

It’s ghastly.

5998 ▶▶ TJN, replying to Alci, 26, #363 of 616 🔗

Yes, the potential effects on toddlers and small children, at such an important stage of their social development, appears to have been ignored in all this. Inexplicable, and inexcusable.

Without going into personal circumstances, I too can relate to what you are saying. Mrs TJN and I have made sure ours have gone out loads during the lockdown, and to a variety of places; but it has been difficult for them to mix with other children.

Being so little, hopefully they’ll bounce back soon.

What Mrs TJN and I are clear on is that we are never going to encourage, or allow anyone else to encourage, ours to ‘social distance’. We are trying never even to let them hear that repellent phrase, with its menacing connotations and denial of basic humanity. If going back to playgroups to nursery means ‘social distancing’ (if that is remotely possible with small children) then ours simply won’t go. We’ll find another way.

If enough information can be got together, I think Toby should draw attention to this unnoticed and troubling feature of the lockdown in one of his newsletters.

6000 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Alci, 12, #364 of 616 🔗

I sympathise with your plight and I wonder what long term damage this will do to children’s social skills and ability to cope with adversity.

This is not good.

6165 ▶▶ Mimi, replying to Alci, 3, #365 of 616 🔗

I am so sorry. The damage inflicted on the youngest children is unconsionable. They develop so fast in those years, and they need lots of human contact. Screens are not natural and not at all good for them. Playing outside and hugs are.

5990 Dan Owen, 2, #366 of 616 🔗

Has a fraud been perpetuated on us all? Surely there are issues that deserve test under the law?

5994 Adele Bull, replying to Adele Bull, #367 of 616 🔗

BBC still reporting that Germany R number us rising post lockdown. Where can we get proper figures for this?

5997 ▶▶ Pebbles, replying to Adele Bull, 9, #368 of 616 🔗

Most of the federal states there have opened up significantly, even domestic tourism is allowed under conditions… so a rise of R number is to be expected. The first reliable numbers shouldn’t be expected before end of May as they only started opening a week ago and bigger places like zoos etc are opening as of 15 May. So give it a couple of weeks to see what’s really happening and what the post lockdown evidence shows. The BBC is as usual fear mongering to the extreme, there is no way of telling at this stage, they really should know better than this…

6011 ▶▶ AN other lockdown sceptic, replying to Adele Bull, 1, #369 of 616 🔗
6038 ▶▶▶ Pebbles, replying to AN other lockdown sceptic, 1, #370 of 616 🔗

Just saw this. Great link. Early days still but hopefully it will become the best argument against lockdown especially since they keep dangling that sword over our heads of a new lockdown in the future…

6017 ▶▶ guy153, replying to Adele Bull, 1, #371 of 616 🔗

I would just look on worldometers:


Looking at “Daily New Cases” on that page I see no cause for concern.

6026 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Adele Bull, 5, #372 of 616 🔗

Plus, I don’t get the obsession with cases, given it’s not dangerous. Ben Goldacre’s (Oxford’s) study needs more exposure, see page 11, there’s zero risk for the working population unless you are unwell already. Recovery is 100% (99.99%). https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.06.20092999v1

5995 Mark T, 6, #373 of 616 🔗

I applaud Elon Musk for refusing to recognise and comply with a government that thinks it has the absolute right to shut down a private enterprise at its own discretion.

What could governments do if others followed this example of acting on principle?


6003 anti_corruption_tsar, 1, #374 of 616 🔗

A great article:


As always, follow the money to get at the truth. And take a bow Sweden, Belarus, Iceland, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan and Mexico.

6004 Mark H, replying to Mark H, 81, #375 of 616 🔗

It’s interesting reading that people are reluctant to post their true feelings on Facebook for fear of losing friends. I had the same feeling until late March. From then on I posted all the research I’d come across and made my posts public. And of course, a backlash occurred, which resulted in a campaign – and I’m not exaggerating when I say any of this – to destroy my character and my relationship. Someone once close to me even threatened to vandalism my car if he saw it.

The following is what I posted on Facebook in response to this:

The last week or so I’ve lost people from my life who I considered friends. People who, just a couple of months ago, considered me to be level-headed, but who now view me with suspicion and believe I am heartless, cold-blooded and mentally unsound.

People who have jumped to the conclusion that, because I’m concerned about unnecessary deaths caused by the delay in cancer tests and treatments, means I don’t care about those who’ve died from COVID-19. Where pointing out that 92% of cervical cancer cases require regular screening in order for them NOT to be fatal, means I don’t care that people older than 75 with multiple underlying morbidities died of COVID-19.

For some people, my name is now an insult, whereby you belittle another person by saying “you sound just like Mark”.

My conclusions are based on data. On empirical evidence. On the pattern of healthcare that used to exist in the UK before the lumbering beast that is the NHS was rewired to give priority to a virus.

This is a world where our empathy has been weaponised to the point where it can only reach COVID-19 patients, fatalities and grieving families. Pointing out the preventable deaths from cancer, heart disease, suicide etc, equates to being an uncaring sociopath. It would seem.

This is a world where ignoring the news bulletins and, instead, going to the source – the data – or reading research papers by epidemiologists, whose studies and research are ignored by the media, equates to being a conspiracy theorist.

This is a world where being angry over unnecessary mass unemployment, which in itself is statistically proven to shorten life expectancy and result in higher suicide rates, means you’re heartless and cold.
This is a world where pointing out that the NHS requires a healthy economy to receive its taxpayer funding means you don’t care about health or people dying.

This is a world where pointing out that NHS Scotland while having the majority of its ICU beds lying empty, is transporting geriatric COVID-19 patients into ill-equipped care homes mean you don’t care about old people dying.

This is a world where looking 5, 10 or 20 years down the road and being pained at the world we’re passing onto your children means you’re being shortsighted.

This is a world where seeing the financial connections between key politicians and government scientific advisors to vaccine producing pharmaceutical companies means you’re blind.

It’s a world of false dichotomies. Of closed-mindedness. Of choosing to suddenly believe politicians and news outlets that, 6 months ago, had scorn heaped upon them. It’s a world where fear and panic have shouted the loudest, while reason and logic have been relegated to the domain of mass murderers and psychopaths. It’s a world where freedoms we would have fought to keep have been surrendered, while we scream to have even more freedoms taken from us, to protect us.

It’s a world where death tolls are obsessed over up until the point the death toll points to the very thing I was worried about: unnecessary deaths of people who should have been in hospital.

It’s a world where people argue for the very point you try to make in an effort to prove you wrong. It’s a world of logical flip flops. Where the whole house is burned to the ground to kill a spider in the kitchen and the fire extinguisher is thrown out into the street with scorn and derision.

And yet it’s a world where professionals who’ve built a career on evidence-based scientific approaches to health care are saying the very things most of us don’t want to hear.

6010 ▶▶ Margaret, replying to Mark H, 9, #376 of 616 🔗

Thank you so much for this post. Absolutely spot on!

6014 ▶▶ Edna, replying to Mark H, 22, #377 of 616 🔗

Thank you so much for articulating so well exactly what I feel. I saw a post yesterday by someone on my Facebook friends list; this person had shared something about a group planning to meet in the park. That person and I have many mutual friends and I watched, almost unbelievingly, as so many of these friends turned into a mob and heaped vitriol and scorn on anyone who might be even consider ignoring the Stay At Home message, to meet with friends and strangers in a park. It is one of the ugliest posts I’ve ever seen on FB. It seems to me that the only way all those people could act that way is if they believe absolutely everything that they see in MSM. Yet this morning I see some of those same people pouring scorn that same MSM. It truly is a topsy-turvy world. Some people seem to have lost all ability to think in a reasoned way or, indeed, even to think at all.

6192 ▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Edna, 5, #378 of 616 🔗

It’s the group of bullies in the playground who gang up and destroy the fat kid/one with glasses/pigtails/weakone/kid who is ill. They think this gives them power and strength in numbers – it doesn’t. Like all bullies they probably wouldn’t do it on their own. Bullying is a concept fed by the ego which says having power over others brings you happiness/contentment/satisfaction. It doesn’t. Once you can relinquish the concept that power over others brings you some sense of well-being we can proceed to having peace. This would also include the person who wants to win an argument at all costs, lot of them about too.

6016 ▶▶ Biker, replying to Mark H, 25, #379 of 616 🔗

I fear the kind of “friend” you had on Facebook won’t have the capabilities to read a post of that length and won’t. What they’ll do is continue to lie on Facebook to prove their virtue. This is what all these people are doing. This virus has shown proof, if proof were needed, that virtue is the worst human trait of them all. Everyone of these NHS clapping fools are letting their neighbours know that behind closed doors they engage in unspeakable horrors , they lie , steal and cheat and god knows what else. They’re loving this whole episode because they can pretend to be good people. Someone like yourself and many of us here reading the science from other people outside of this government and media know what is going on and don’t need to virtue signal and will, like you, make a stand in front of others. This can be described as heroic and there in lies the hatred you’re getting. You’re doing what they’re pretending to be doing and ruining their chance to lie to others about how good they are.

6024 ▶▶▶ Mark H, replying to Biker, 15, #380 of 616 🔗

By the time I’d posted that, I’d already removed and blocked the offending parties. The threats of violence and vandalism came later, in part because a snake I still had on Facebook apparently screenshot my post and sent it to the “offended” parties. One such person claimed my post called them a “sheep”. Do you see the word sheep? Either way, this wasn’t random strangers, but people I knew and trusted.

6046 ▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Mark H, 10, #381 of 616 🔗

I’ve had the same, it’s shocked the hell out of me. It’s the culture wars, reimagined, instantly around covid, and the same ‘if you have one opinion I don’t like, all your opinions are worthless, and you are cancelled’ that was ripping us apart before this happened. God knows what comes after, I don’t have hopes of any great shift in the aftermath. One thing I do know, is we should unplug social media. I think I’m going to shift those old mates I like keeping in touch with onto another platform, hell maybe just old fashioned phonecalls, and dump social media, it’s a toxic toilet of stupidity, it’s censorious, and makes sensible discussion impossible. We’ve become a nation of wailing infants, I’m embarrassed of us, God knows how we fix it, but unless we can put respect for diverse views, listening, critical thinking back in the mix, I don’t know what comes after this.

6075 ▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to BecJT, 4, #382 of 616 🔗

“… social media, it’s a toxic toilet of stupidity …”

Brilliant description, thanks BecJT.

6085 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to JohnB, 1, #383 of 616 🔗

Thanks, I use it professionally, it’s handy for professional stuff, and campaigns, but for actual social interactions, I’m going old fashioned, if I don’t know you in person, then I’m not interacting, it’s pointless. The ‘pile on’ is now a form of sport.

6136 ▶▶▶▶ Michel, replying to Mark H, 4, #384 of 616 🔗

You have now gained a lot of new lockdownsceptics friends. …who needs facebook anyway? 😉

6018 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Mark H, 8, #385 of 616 🔗

So well put – surely a post that every politician should be forced to read. Sanity seems to have fled.

6021 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Mark H, 27, #386 of 616 🔗

And the risk is ZERO, and recovery 100% if you are under 60 and in good health (see page 11) and yet we’ve visited armageddon on the poor, the old and the sick, to make the people you refer to feel virtuous and ‘safe’. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.06.20092999v1

Spoke to family friend last night, he’s 85, has a very weak chest (is often hospitalised each winter due to terrible chest infections), if he gets it he’s gone. He was in tears of loneliness, he’s such a proud and lovely man. He’s so angry about what we are doing to children, people who are ill and need care, to the economy, and to the old in carehomes. He’s apoplectic that people have conflated VE day with all this to make themselves feel virtuous, when those people who actually won the war are rotting in care homes, forgotten. His 95 year old friend, sharp as a tack, is going for a drive every day as she says ‘I’m not letting those bastards tell me what to do’. She’s now got an ulcerated leg due to poor care in lockdown, and that’s a real risk to her if she gets an infection.

He said ‘I wish the bloody cowards would buck up and get on with it, then I could have my life back’.

The travesty in all this, the touch paper that lit the whole nightmare was the weaponising of ‘herd immunity’ as if that was a dirty word, rather than our only way out (and it’s clearly the government’s strategy now).

6056 ▶▶▶ Morris_Day, replying to BecJT, 9, #387 of 616 🔗

The beginning of the end for my Nan was not her Parkinson’s, it was a stay in Stafford hospital with pneumonia. She was there for two weeks and they didn’t get her out of bed for exercise. A once mobile person became a statue, she died months later having barely left the house since that trip to hospital. This is what we are doing to be ‘kind’ to our elderly.

I’m not the most patient sort and am happy to call-out hypocrisy. This is that. Led by a self-entitled generation who like to believe they are doing the ‘right’ think and won’t listen to a thing you say.

The number of people I see refer to schools who don’t even have kids. Most people I’ve spoken to with kids would be happy to send them back tomorrow – but that’s one thing I have found – when you speak to people they say something totally different to their social media pages.

6088 ▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Morris_Day, 2, #388 of 616 🔗

Totally agree, plus with the best will in the world will harassed care home staff remember that mum forgets to drink unless you prompt her, or wont eat her food unless you cut it, or gets water infections or whatever. We’re being so cruel. I’m really ashamed of us. I don’t know what to do to make it better, we definitely need some kind of campaign to prevent this ever ever happening again, and to sort out care of the old once and for all. My parents are older, when we set up powers of attorney for when the day comes all they’ve both said ‘is for the love of God keep us out of hospital’.

6126 ▶▶▶▶▶ Simon Dutton, replying to BecJT, 9, #389 of 616 🔗

The proudest achievement of my life has been to keep my mother out of a care home (i.e. a place that is not your home and in which nobody cares for you). At last, at 87, she suffered a severe aneurysm and had to go to hospital. She was there for three days before she died, kept all her marbles, and was able to say farewell with humour and courage.

Before she went in I gave her a £5 note in case she wanted to buy a newspaper or something. I also gave her one of our best down-filled pillows. When I went to collect her effects, the pillow had vanished, and so had the £5 note, and so had the contents of her purse. Moreover, her gold wedding-ring had disappeared.

I informed the administrator that if the ring had not been returned by 4 p.m. I would call the police. Sure enough, surprise surprise, it turned up.

The Thursday-night seal-clapping is nauseating. My every interaction with the NHS has been characterised by indifference or outright malpractice – I could append some hair-raising personal anecdotes, never mind the poor bastards who’ve had the wrong leg or kidney removed.

Like the term “care home”, “National Health Service” is a fine specimen of Newspeak: provision varies with sort-code; if you get in their clutches they make you sick; but most ironic of all is the word “Service”.

6207 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Simon Dutton, 1, #390 of 616 🔗

I resonate with you Simon. My mother is 96 and despite the fact that I still work for a living I am doing everything I can – along with my brother – to keep her in her flat. She’s a difficult woman at times and our relationship is not without its conflicts and dramas, but I saw what a brief respite in a care home did to her after a mini-stroke. She doesn’t much want to be here anymore (having endured eight weeks in isolation which included her 96th birthday) but while she is I’m going to fight for her dignity despite social workers trying to edge her into care. Meanwhile I’m not clapping like a seal for anybody. Save the NHS? I thought it was there to save us.

6202 ▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to BecJT, 2, #391 of 616 🔗

In my social sphere or sphere of awareness the group that are whining the most about relaxing restrictions are mostly under 35.

6025 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Mark H, 16, #392 of 616 🔗

This is true moral courage.

Unlike some actor or artist being vacuously praised as “courageous” for making yet another tedious assertion of some point of politically correct dogma, this is someone standing up for something he believes in, with no expectation of personal gain and the certainty of immediate, real personal cost, merely because he believes it is truth, and of vital importance for society as a whole.

This is the opposite of the virtue signaller, who makes a pretence of nobility with the direct expectation of personal gains in status and in future career prospects.

You have my respect, sir.

6032 ▶▶ RDawg, replying to Mark H, 21, #393 of 616 🔗

Brilliant response Mark. I’ve lost quite a few friends too. I am seen as a deluded dissenter; an outlier. I promise you this. The truth will eventually come out. This will be looked back on in history as the greatest act of self harm ever inflicted on the free-thinking world.

I am still confident before the year is up, we will be back to normal, saying, “Phew. Well thank God that’s behind us.” The tide is turning. It just needs to reach a tipping point.

6215 ▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to RDawg, 1, #394 of 616 🔗

I sympathise with all of this except the ‘back to normal’ bit. Back to normal is lying thieving politicians and a political system (FPTP) not fit for service in which a minority government (doesn’t matter which party) is always in power. ‘Back to normal’ also means still tacitly giving carte blanche to those who would behave like pigs. I’d like to think this whole affair might be the milestone, the marker, for a whole new paradigm of decency and concern for others: you know, that old chestnut: love your neighbour as yourself (which of course means loving yourself first, impossible for most people). i don’t want to go back to what the world was like in January. And while we’re on one: if it’s okay to get back on public transport why is not okay to go and have a pint? I can sit on my own, I don’t mind.

6228 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 1, #395 of 616 🔗

Problem with that is we all probably have very different ideas about how best to make the world better than it was BC (before coronapanic), much as we did back then, and those ideas are likely to reassert themselves, admittedly with some element of “reality check” in many cases as a result of this experience. And there’s no guarantee we would draw the same conclusions from said reality check, either.

As for decency and concern for others, as far as I can tell most of those bleating loudest about that are simultaneously spitting hatred at anyone who dares to disagree with them and displaying the most brutal disregard for those really suffering as a result of this lockdown, so I’m not really inclined to buy any idea that we are experiencing some kind of general moral improvement here.

Probably best to focus on just setting aside this lockdown insanity and getting everyone to see it for what it always was.

6035 ▶▶ Pebbles, replying to Mark H, 7, #396 of 616 🔗

So well said/written. Well done! I feel the exact same way. But very pleased you left the extremely isolating, tiring, non-stop self-censorship behind and spoke your truth. We all should be doing this.

6036 ▶▶ BrianJR, replying to Mark H, 12, #397 of 616 🔗

Outstanding post and an intelligent, calm and reasoned explanation of how you feel. That others could take offence at you so clearly laying out your position suggests a lack of the same qualities you clearly posses, so no loss if they choose to disconnect.

I have posted before on here that societally I think this situation has great potential to create or deepen rifts between us all, but what has been evident in so many throughout this so far has been a lack of honesty and integrity – and you display this in spades.

Well done.

6040 ▶▶ RDawg, replying to Mark H, 15, #398 of 616 🔗

A world where people are terrified of oncoming pedestrians, but have no fear of oncoming traffic.

6041 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Mark H, 4, #399 of 616 🔗

Well said Mark – absolutely right! I have just joined this site having been a lurker for a few days, and having become frightened to put my head above the parapet elsewhere. Like you, I tried hard on Facebook. I posted proper peer reviewed medical articles, saying that vitamins D, C and the mineral zinc are proved to help the immune system resist this virus, and got shouted down with cries of “vaccine, we must have a vaccine!” Well, ok if that’s what you want, but that wasn’t what I was saying. We don’t have a vaccine, so why not help yourselves for a little bit by building up your immune system? It may not be a foolproof method but it will help.
I tried posting genuine statistics, tried pointing the way to many interviews with the Swedish Professor, tried to get people to do their own research and think for themselves, but sadly it all fell on deaf ears. I wasn’t even saying “I am right and you are wrong” – all I wanted was for them to think a little, use some common sense (now where did we hear that yesterday?!) and be a little independent in thought. I even tried pointing to yesterday’s mainstream daily Coronavirus update (seeing as these folk seemed to like them) at the part where Professor Whitty emphasised that the vast majority of people are in no danger at all – his words. Thank goodness for websites like this one.

6044 ▶▶ mhcp, replying to Mark H, 4, #400 of 616 🔗

Mark, for me the gateway drug if you will is belief in climate change science, as in there is real and significant man-made climate change. It is everywhere and if you even accept that premise it becomes a slippery slope for the “common good”.

Now I’m a scientist/engineer so I don’t say this lightly – but climate science is a purely hypothetical exercise. Which as scientists know is a perfectly acceptable and useful branch of science and is consistent with the scientific method, provided YOU DON”T EXTRAPOLATE BEYOND THE LIMITS OF YOUR ASSUMPTIONS.

It’s like the Mayor of London saying every household within the Circulars (406 North and South) have to re-tile their roofs with expensive special non-slip tiles so that on Christmas Eve Santa Claus doesn’t fall off and cause a Health and Safety incident as well as the liability of undelivered presents.

People laugh when I say this but as long as you accept the premise of certain aspects of Santa Claus you can have a perfectly rational discussion of the pros and cons. However you don’t ever apply this to the real world.

The problem is an ethical one – one that engineers and others have understood for a very long time.

6053 ▶▶▶ TJN, replying to mhcp, 3, #401 of 616 🔗

There should be far more engineers at the centre of policy making! Practical people for whom what matters is what works. Not dogma; not theory: what works. It’s a mindset.

Incidentally, Steve Baker is one of the few MPs to have a degree in engineering.

6068 ▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Mark H, 2, #402 of 616 🔗

Thank you, Mark. Very articulately expressed and your experience on social media seems to be typical. The points you make and those of others (below) accurately reflect the manufactured and toxic polarisation of society which we have suffered under for a long time now (foreign policy, Brexit, climate change, etc) and which, I believe, is magnified to a dangerous degree by social media during this lockdown, aided and abetted by the MSM. Cui bono?

For the record, I am naturally a bit of a ‘lefty’, although never party-political. I probably disagree with many posters on here about the issues above but one of the things I think I’ve got right in life is always to have real-life friends with a variety of views. My husband and I use what we call the ‘trench test’ to measure what someone is worth as a friend ie. would you want this person next to you in a trench in WW1?

What is at stake now means that anyone in the grip of ‘coronaphobia’ is, unfortunately, incapable of being rational. I am very grateful to Toby Young for this blog which along with sites such as Off-Guardian and Swiss Propaganda Research may be stopping us going mad. That and getting out regularly to do our permitted ‘exercise and essential shopping’. As we don’t run a car (!) we use the buses and it is heartening to realise that not everyone is buying into either the fear or the lockdown.

Meanwhile, get off Facebook (and Twitter). Those people were never really your friends.

6096 ▶▶▶ Mark H, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 2, #403 of 616 🔗

The people involved were friends, as in real-life friends. But of course, face-to-face conversations etc are illegal.

6086 ▶▶ Gtec, replying to Mark H, 3, #404 of 616 🔗

So glad I don’t use ‘social media’ – it should really come with a health warning, for your sanity, if nothing else. Disturbing times.

6100 ▶▶ wendyk, replying to Mark H, 2, #405 of 616 🔗

Congratulations Mark; my thoughts entirely.Having tried FB and twitter very reluctantly, many years ago, I abandoned both within weeks .

The licence fee went the same way over 10 years ago as well; I’ve never regretted either choice.

My niece-presently working from home- has emailed to share her exasperation with the mindless clapping and the confusing diktats being delivered by our so called leaders.

Up here, confusion reigns: masks on; no masks; walkies but not with friends-how can they tell?-(to quote Dorothy Parker); plant kiosk at supermarket-very limited space-OK; spacious garden centre not OK.

Hardware shop open again but door locked to restrict entry. Staff wearing plastic helmets with visors.

We’ll all end up resembling the Muppets’ Animal character if this goes on for much longer.


6117 ▶▶ Gossamer, replying to Mark H, 7, #406 of 616 🔗

Since mid-March, I’ve fallen uncharacteristically silent on Facebook, and am engaging with only a select few people outside of that (other than for work). Judging by the nonsense I see on my Feed, I’ve had to conclude that people who were close and longstanding friends have proved… let’s just say, disappointing. A deliberate understatement, as I’m trying to be diplomatic.

Perhaps the final straw (or one of them) is a friend who has diverted his passion for mathematics into sharing posts which purport to present a mathematically-based perspective, but which in fact are barely disguised shrieks of hysteria.

It’s also infuriating when people post about “gratitude”, and how fortunate we are that we are still allowed out for walks. Gratitude is not an appropriate response to the sudden imposition of martial law.. But I *try* and think of such posts as an attempt to keep everyone’s spirits up, rather than signs of supine complacency.

Mark, the backlash that you speak of is exactly what I feared would happen to someone who dares speak out. As others here have said, your courage is magnificent – and history will of course vindicate you and many others who have taken a similar path. I will probably need to make a whole new set of friends once all this is over, and I hope they will be people of your calibre.

6123 ▶▶ Jane Sproston, replying to Mark H, 6, #407 of 616 🔗

I have posted lots of sceptical articles on Facebook since day one of this sorry time. I have had arguments with some people on there who just cannot see this virus as a mild disease for most. This includes family. I wonder if they are wilfully blind, stupid with a lack of common sense or just very neurotic and susceptible to fear mongering?

One of my more recent posts was about propaganda that is used by the media so I quoted Hitler and his use of propaganda to control the way people think and see their lives. I could have quoted any tyrant but felt that this quote was short and to the point and would make people think. Surely enough I had some comments which were about propaganda in our media, SAGE and the slogans etc. It was actually for a change a productive conversation with two other Facebook friends. The next morning I was notified by Facebook that I have breached the rules and now cannot post anything for a month. I suppose I chose the wrong tyrant. Next time I will use Stalin to make my point about the use of propaganda which will be ok with Facebook I’m sure!

I have to say though, most people on Facebook have shown themselves to be cowardly, uncritical and lacking in independent thought. I think Facebook in some ways has done me a favour! I have to say that I now see a lot of people in a different light to how I saw them before and it isn’t in a favourable way. My mum always told me when I was younger that you always see the real person when times are bad.

6254 ▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Jane Sproston, #408 of 616 🔗

If Facebook told me I couldn’t post for a month, I’d eff off. Bit like your grocer saying you can’y buy bread for a month because you swore in the shop.

6440 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Jane Sproston, #409 of 616 🔗

As Walter Baghehot wrote about the monarchy, “its mystery is its life. We must not let in daylight upon magic.” and so it is with people. If anything social media and this crisis has allowed us to see people we know in a different light and some of it isn’t pretty.

6189 ▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Mark H, 2, #410 of 616 🔗

Bloody good post Mark

6020 Gillian, replying to Gillian, 27, #411 of 616 🔗

I used to quite enjoy watching Piers Morgan on GMB and his combative style with politicians and others. But he has swallowed the whole panic and fear scenario with C19 hook, line and sinker and won’t listen to any other view. Disappointed also with Dr Hilary who repeatedly spouts the fear/panic script to his adoring audience who hang on his every word. No longer watch. Have switched off MSM.

6028 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Gillian, 10, #412 of 616 🔗

The only sane approach!

6045 Mark, replying to Mark, 1, #413 of 616 🔗


This is potentially a vital question, because as has been noted by Toby and others the date of peak deaths in the UK is 16 days after the imposition of the lockdown.

The original information was that the time to death would be 21-23 days. Counterarguments raised by lockdown advocates were first that this was mean time rather than median, and later that new data suggest a much shorter time to death.

Does anyone have links to any information on this?

6052 ▶▶ TJN, replying to Mark, 1, #414 of 616 🔗

Will Jones has written on this:

He went into much more detail in a forum comment on The Spectator site, but I don’t recall the article title. It may be possible to find in his posting history.

6061 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to TJN, #415 of 616 🔗

Thanks – yes that info referred to by Will Jones is what I’ve seen referred to before, but I haven’t see any link to the data it’s based on.

6079 ▶▶▶▶ TJN, replying to Mark, #416 of 616 🔗

I’ve found Will’s post on The Spectator forum, under article title ‘How do we know which lockdown measures should be lifted first’, by Ross Clark, 7 May 2020. It’s one of the most recent posts. Can you get to it?

I don’t know if it’s the done-thing to copy and paste someone’s post from another site to here?

I understand he also posts here, and he’d be able to explain a lot more than I can.

6080 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to TJN, #417 of 616 🔗

Looks like I’d need a subscription to see the comments, which is something I’d rather avoid with the Spectator, even the free trial one. Does Will give a source for the 16 days to death average?

6087 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ DocRC, replying to Mark, 1, #418 of 616 🔗

FYI this is Will’s post form the Spectator last week:

The survey ‘Features of 16,749 hospitalized UK patients with COVID-19 using the ISARIC WHO Clinical Characterization Protocol’ finds average 4 days of symptoms pre-admission and 7 days hospital stay (all patients, both deceased and surviving). The incubation period averages 5-6 days – see the Covid-19 wiki article for references. Also in NYC the death curve lags the admission curve by 5 days. The report ‘Characteristics of COVID-19 patients dying in Italy’ found average 10 days between symptoms and death. Put this data together and you get average around 16 days from infection to death corroborated from a number of sources.

6095 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to DocRC, #419 of 616 🔗

Brill, that’s the info I was after. Thanks, to you and to TJN.

6099 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ TJN, replying to Mark, #420 of 616 🔗

OK, if it’s the done thing, he also followed up with this:

‘Yes before the Italy survey and now the UK the Wuhan survey said 14 days average between symptoms and death, plus 6-10 days incubation gave you 20-24 days. There’s evidence the strain dominant in East Asia is not the same as in many western countries.’

I hope he doesn’t mind being quoted like this, as he may have evolved his opinions since.

6104 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to TJN, #421 of 616 🔗

I think when it’s clear you are posting a previous comment there are no grounds for concern. Information accrues and opinions evolve. For most of us, at least.

6064 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Mark, #422 of 616 🔗

For reference, this was the original info on time to death:

“The median time from illness onset (ie, before admission) to discharge was 22·0 days (IQR 18·0–25·0), whereas the median time to death was 18·5 days (15·0–22·0; table 2)”


6067 ▶▶ guy153, replying to Mark, #423 of 616 🔗


“Using available preliminary data, the median time from onset to clinical recovery for mild
cases is approximately 2 weeks and is 3-6 weeks for patients with severe or critical disease.
Preliminary data suggests that the time period from onset to the development of severe
disease, including hypoxia, is 1 week. Among patients who have died, the time from
symptom onset to outcome ranges from 2-8 weeks.”

Symptom onset is probably about a week after actual infection but may be longer.

6071 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to guy153, #424 of 616 🔗

So where’s the data for this suggestion (see Will Jones article linked above) that the average time from infection to death is actually 16 days?

6292 ▶▶ Back To Normal, replying to Mark, #425 of 616 🔗

In this Professor Knut Wittkowski interview he discusses this issue in terms of peak hospitalisations and the lead time for those. Apologies if you have already seen this. The Professor is using US CDC data to support his argument, but I wonder how this argument would play out using UK peak hospitalisations data (if you can get that somewhere). You need to start from about 7 minutes in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0Q4naYOYDw&t=562s

6048 Mark, replying to Mark, 14, #426 of 616 🔗

Given the rather disturbing suggestions floating around that the government has been involved in direct “opinion management” operations, we surely now urgently need a full public inquiry into this aspect.

It is simply not acceptable in a supposed democracy that any government resources should be used for this purpose, and if nothing else a clear understanding of the limits of “nudging” needs to be put in place.

These murky operations are in urgent need of some disinfecting sunlight.

6069 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Mark, 8, #427 of 616 🔗

When the state broadcaster pumps out fear porn for over six weeks, with no dissenting voices permitted (Hitchens excepted), it’s pretty blatant.

A ‘full public inquiry’ will admit mistakes were made, lessons will be learned, nothing else to see here, and tell us to move on. Yep, I’m a tad cynical.

6072 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to JohnB, 5, #428 of 616 🔗

I share your cynicism, but it’s still a worthwhile exercise, if only because such things usually bring out a lot of dirty laundry even if ultimately they whitewash (to brutally mix metaphors).

6090 ▶▶ A13, replying to Mark, 14, #429 of 616 🔗

I watched UK column news last night, where they discussed the leaked sage document and talked about using psychological manipulation. I couldn’t sleep after that but I think that there is hope:
– Whoever is orchestrating this has to use ‘useful idiots’ that will eventually go off the script led by their arrogance and narcissism and start messing things up.
– Government can’t control the virus, and if the are no new cases, or the number of cases is significantly dropping, people might start seeing through their bullshit
– We are not North Korea yet, and imposing much stricter lockdown rules on UK citizens compared to our neighbours can’t go on indefinitely
– There must be people in the government who know about this and are as terrified as we all here are. We need whistleblowers.
– I’d like to believe that the government is underestimating people’s ability to think. I know what you’re all thinking, but we’ve all had moments of fear when we believed that the virus poses a severe health threat and we panicked, stockpiled food, avoided contact with other people – even if it was for a short period. Give them some time. Not everyone will come to their senses, but I believe that there are enough reasonably smart people out there who can convince those less intelligent.

6131 ▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to A13, 4, #430 of 616 🔗

People need confidence and permission to say what they are really thinking, we famously don’t like making a fuss. I also agree there must be horror in certain quarters including amongst scientists, civil servants and other politicians.

6175 ▶▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to BecJT, 3, #431 of 616 🔗

Dunno what people not liking making a fuss is about. Basically you’re in solitary confinement most of the time (me) or house arrest if you live with anyone, but, oh no, let’s not rock the boat and complain. That would be unseemly. When they take away your right away to have a bowel movement when you want one will people complain then? We are on the edge of a very slippery slope and folks have got to start standing up, and preferably under their real names, not hiding under pseudonyms, unless their livelihoods depend on it. Not everybody in uniform is a frustrated fascist waiting to be turned loose on the proles. Some of them want civil rights too.

6214 ▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 2, #432 of 616 🔗

Nigel, I’m with you on this. If everyone I knew stood up to this, it would be easier, but they’re just going along with it. There needs to be a rabble-rouser (for want of a better term) to rally the troops. But I just don’t see one.

6171 ▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to A13, 1, #433 of 616 🔗

This is very true A13. At the beginning of all of this I was completely in shock. I panicked, hid away, over-bought food and other supplies and became a complete wreck. Two weeks later however I was starting to smell a huge rat. I did my own investigations, read other peer reviewed medical documents and upped my intake of Vitamins C, D and zinc. I have never trusted authority, never will, and always look beyond the obvious message. Give others some time, they’ll realise eventually.

6318 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to A13, #434 of 616 🔗

As regards cases dropping, they already have and the statistics are now being deliberately skewed (kept high) in order to justify keeping us in lockdown. See here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imrLwM97i0k A mathematician has analysed all the figures…

6054 Gracie Knoll, replying to Gracie Knoll, 29, #435 of 616 🔗

I am STAGGERED to see all the references to bloody Facebook. I registered with Facebook a few years back, simply to keep up to date with what my nephews are doing. Other than that I post nothing on it and don’t look at it.

People talk about Facebook “friends”. These people are NOT your friends. They’re just random people who you may think are friends, or who you hardly know at all. Unlike a true friend, they wouldn’t visit you in hospital and frankly, probably wouldn’t piss on you if you were on fire.

Forget about Facebook “friends” – and forget about Facebook! Either stop posting on it or (preferably) de-register altogether. Leave Facebook as the playground for narcissistic, uninformed groupthinkers. From what little I’ve seen of Facebook, it’s highly dangerous to one’s mental health and has certainly been one of the main factors in creating this crisis.

Just get off it! Facebook is toxic!

6077 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Gracie Knoll, 1, #436 of 616 🔗

I have certainly been thinking that way too. However it’s my only real way of keeping in contact with physical friends abroad. I live half the year elsewhere in Europe and FB is used as a means of exchanging news and arranging gatherings. But I know what you mean. Part of me really hates it and I rarely post anything on my own timeline.

6084 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Gracie Knoll, -1, #437 of 616 🔗

It’s also how most people get their information, so if you want to be part of the push back some involvement is necessary. Most of my friends are people I actually know (I have friends all over the world, it’s handy for staying connected). I agree it’s toxic, and will be shifting my networks somewhere else when this is over, but it isn’t just group thinkers, I use a lot of it for work, and some campaigns I manage professionally, it’s extremely useful for awareness raising on some issues.

6089 ▶▶▶ DocRC, replying to BecJT, 1, #438 of 616 🔗

I agree if we are trying to persuade people that they have been led up the garden path, we need to engage with them. I posted a sceptical piece a few days ago on Facebook and had no negative comments unlike Mark Hunter.

6106 ▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to BecJT, 4, #439 of 616 🔗

BecJT and DocRC, if your posts on Facebook or Twitter start influencing people to stop complying with the New Normal, you may well find that your account will be deleted. It has already been happening: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/apr/20/facebook-anti-lockdown-protests-bans and https://www.cnet.com/news/twitter-will-require-users-to-remove-tweets-that-could-increase-the-spread-of-coronavirus/

Instead, we think you should find every opportunity to talk to people: phone, email, over the fence, on a bus, in a queue, whatever it takes. Maybe we’re lucky, here in the High Peak, but despite a few ‘happy clappers’ and people displaying obvious fear, we’re sensing a growing and healthy scepticism. e.g. the parcel delivery man who has just called loves our notice in the window: a spoof of the famous ‘Daddy, what did you do in the War?’ WW1 poster. Ours says ‘Daddy, what did you do when the State took away all our rights and freedoms?’ ‘I called anyone who questioned it a conspiracy theorist and clapped like a monkey’.

Onwards and downwards!

6127 ▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 1, #440 of 616 🔗

Totally agree about face to face, just converted another two about ten minutes ago, just by chatting, I’m striking up conversations wherever I go. Twitter, i don’t bother, only 14% of people use it, it’s a pointless platform, facebook I like for marketing and campaigning (which I do as part of my job), it’s just utterly rubbish for any kind of nuanced debate. And yes I think corporate censorship is a growing thing in all areas of discussion that we need to get serious about, facebook and twitter have been doing it for years, and now youtube are getting trigger happy.

6093 ▶▶ Gtec, replying to Gracie Knoll, 1, #441 of 616 🔗

I couldn’t agree more – ‘virtual’ anything is not real, it doesn’t exist, and to treat it as though it is real is a fantasy. Pleasant perhaps, but a fantasy nonetheless, which if we treat it otherwise undermines our humanity and our experience of reality.

Online ‘friends’ remind me of Harvey the rabbit!

6139 ▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Gracie Knoll, 1, #442 of 616 🔗

Not quite Gracie. I’m on Facebook because when I was working with film students at university they wanted to do their group projects through Facebook. And actually I don’t have any ‘friends’ who I don’t know personally. I’ve either worked with them or had a drink with them and that’s how people my age use it. And it’s a really useful tool for keeping in touch with old colleagues. Like red wine it’s only toxic if you abuse it.

6170 ▶▶ Mimi, replying to Gracie Knoll, 2, #443 of 616 🔗

For what it’s worth, my university-aged children don’t use Facebook at all. They never have. So Facebook might die a natural death, though there may be some years yet to go. And that would be a good thing, because it is truly toxic.

I post articles that contradict the party line, but that’s it – post and run. I want to still be friends with people when this is over, so I’m not going to seek out anything that will make me dislike them.

The kids also think the lockdown is insane and will absolutely not “return” to classes in the fall if universities remain online. (I can’t even share some of the thoughts I’ve heard from young people on the subject of COVID-vulnerable, but suffice it to say that they are NOT getting anything out of lockdown and they resent it.)

One of my relatives works in higher ed and laments this decision by so many students, because she says it’ll kill all those schools! And I’m like, the universities made the decision when they kicked the students out in the middle of March – many of them had gone home for break and were informed that they couldn’t come back, and are only now able to retrieve their possessions. Looks like the institutions killed their own selves.

6262 ▶▶ OpenCorona, replying to Gracie Knoll, #444 of 616 🔗

I have been trying to use it to help inform, but I fear I’ve not benefitted anyone whose mind was not already changed. I’m thinking now of dropping it altogether for mown mental health. At least I can say I tried. On my own timeline based on the response to a completely innocent family-related post, I think anyone who might have been swayed simply “unfollowed” so as to ignore me. The OpenCorona group has 172 members as of this writing but that’s really nothing. I hoped to raise awareness in an unfriendly land, but now feel defeated.

6299 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to OpenCorona, 2, #445 of 616 🔗

I ditched all social media (apart from Youtube which has now become my one vice lol) about five years ago and can honestly say it’s the best thing I ever did. It frees your mind to think about things that actually matter. Basically you can formulate your own opinions without it, in fact better, without it. – As for ‘social’ media. I mean. It’s antisocial, not social. It’s a bunch of people projecting their opinions and lives onto others. Nothing sociable about it. You try to engage meaningfully on any level and you will be ignored/rebuffed or downright castigated. People who’s already made up their minds go on there to carp on about how right they are, NOT to listen to or interract with others.

Yes I have fewer ‘friends’. Fewer ‘friends’, not fewer friends.

6314 ▶▶▶▶ OpenCorona, replying to Farinances, #446 of 616 🔗

Yep, definitely makes sense. Because we live somewhat remotely, and travel, it was a nice way to keep in touch with friends and family. But it seems the friends have gone, and the family has mostly started ignoring. For as connected as humanity is these days, I feel like this is the most isolating, self-oriented period in history.

6058 Gossamer, replying to Gossamer, 6, #447 of 616 🔗

I’ve been considering: the taping over of benches (including at bus stops) and the police harassment of anyone who sits still for a moment while outdoors …is this not prohibited by disability discrimination laws? People might have mobility difficulties for any number of reasons, and it may be physically impossible for them to keep moving at all times.

Could this be grounds for a class action lawsuit?

6082 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Gossamer, 1, #448 of 616 🔗

Covid Bill has suspended all that, disabled have no rights.

6060 tonyspurs, replying to tonyspurs, 9, #449 of 616 🔗

Not sure if this has been posted before Prof Delores Cahill is my new Heroine

6124 ▶▶ JASA, replying to tonyspurs, #450 of 616 🔗

Brilliant. Why aren’t people like her on government advising committees? Then we would have sensible decisions being made.

6159 ▶▶▶ tonyspurs, replying to JASA, 1, #451 of 616 🔗

I think you’ve answered your own question 🙂

6078 fixitsan, replying to fixitsan, 7, #452 of 616 🔗

Some common R0 values

Measles Aerosol 12–18[2]
Chickenpox (varicella) Aerosol 10–12[3]
Mumps Respiratory droplets 10–12[4]
Polio Fecal–oral route 5–7[citation needed]
Rubella Respiratory droplets 5–7[citation needed]
Pertussis Respiratory droplets 5.5[5]
COVID-19 Respiratory droplets 3.8–8.9[6]
Smallpox Respiratory droplets 3.5–6[7]
HIV/AIDS Body fluids 2–5[citation needed]
SARS Respiratory droplets 3.1–4.2[8]
Common cold Respiratory droplets 2–3[9]
Diphtheria Saliva 1.7–4.3[10]
(1918 pandemic strain) Respiratory droplets 1.4–2.8[11]
(2014 Ebola outbreak) Body fluids 1.5–1.9[12]
(2009 pandemic strain) Respiratory droplets 1.4–1.6[13]
(seasonal strains) Respiratory droplets 0.9–2.1[14]
MERS Respiratory droplets 0.3–0.8[15]

SOURCE – Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_reproduction_number

The 2009 flu pandemic R0 of 1.4 – 1.6 did not , as I recall, cause a complete global shutdown and financial collapse. It killed 284,000 (according to the CDC).

Covid-19 has killed roughly the same so far and is unlikely to rise very much higher.

According to the WHO, every year seasonal flu kills between 290,000 – 650,000

We know that SARS-CoV-2 mutates. We know influenza mutates

The death rate of a bad flu is about 0.1%
The death rate of covid is in some areas also 0.1%

I wonder how many flu cases have been mistaken for covid cases ?

6102 ▶▶ Mark, replying to fixitsan, 4, #453 of 616 🔗

There seems little doubt there will have been massive over-attribution of UK deaths to this coronavirus. But as Dr John Lee pointed out recently, the evidence is being burned so we will likely never be able to know for sure just how exaggerated the death toll has been.


6091 Mark, replying to Mark, 14, #454 of 616 🔗

Covid derangement syndrome remains at epidemic levels in the country, with high concentrations amongst policymakers, politicians and officials:

The Tube is a ‘suicide mission’, complain commuters: Precious few masks in sight despite Sadiq Khan’s instructions as thousands more commuters pack onto London Underground with NO extra trains

“The guidance added: ‘The national requirement to maintain 2m social distancing wherever possible means that TfL will only be able to carry around 13-15 per cent of the normal number of passengers on the Tube and bus networks even when 100 per cent of services are operating once again over time.”

This is utter insanity – it’s been openly admitted that the 2m rule has no basis in science and was introduced purely for propaganda purposes. Why are we incurring real and very significant costs to try to comply with this nonsense?

Can we not somehow surcharge the officials responsible to make them pay for their own lunacy?

It’s as though we are living in a Kafka story.

6108 ▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Mark, 2, #455 of 616 🔗

Kafkaesque is the term I was increasingly inclined to use regarding management of this crisis and the government’s ineptitude. This FB post made me laugh https://www.facebook.com/rbrabban/posts/2923697794374763

6114 ▶▶ Old fred, replying to Mark, 5, #456 of 616 🔗

The daily rags suffered 30% to 50% loss of income last month. Their ever more frantic headlines reflect their increasingly desperate battle to survive. The same applies to the govt, I suppose!

6115 ▶▶ Maud Boggins, replying to Mark, 1, #457 of 616 🔗

Covid Derangement Syndrome! Love it !!

6143 ▶▶ Back To Normal, replying to Mark, 4, #458 of 616 🔗

Do you happen to know the R for Covid Derangement Syndrome? Maybe if people had isolated themselves from the BBC for a few months it wouldn’t have spread so rapidly

6168 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Back To Normal, 2, #459 of 616 🔗

R was clearly very high in February and March, when CDS ripped through the UK’s, Europe’s and the US’s twittering classes like a tornado.

Fortunately, while CDS might still be raging at epidemic levels, it seems the covid virus itself is now well below the levels required to be classed as an epidemic:


6181 ▶▶▶▶ Back To Normal, replying to Mark, 2, #460 of 616 🔗

Its a shame but it seems that once you’ve got CDS, its extremely difficult to shake off and you’re just stuck with it. But articles like the one you mention might give some relief to sufferers.

6094 mhcp, replying to mhcp, 22, #461 of 616 🔗

After watching Dolores Cahill, her point about only three things need social distancingL TB, Ebola and Smallpox.

We should have the motto:

Handshakes Save Lives

Hug Each Other Healthy

A Kiss a Day Keeps the Virus Away

6152 ▶▶ Jane in France, replying to mhcp, 7, #462 of 616 🔗

220,000 deaths from TB in India every year. Nobody mentions social distancing as far as I’m aware. So far, 1,785 deaths from covid. And India is in lockdown!

6097 Oaks79, replying to Oaks79, 15, #463 of 616 🔗

Prof. Klaus Püschel, for instance, a respected pathologist and head of the Institute of Forensic Medicine at Hamburg University Hospital, argues that “in the end, COVID-19 is a viral disease like the flu, which in most cases is harmless and is only fatal in exceptional cases.

“It is important to look at the aftermath of the epidemic to see if COVID-19 really was the cause of death,” Püschel observes. “Of the approximately 180 deceased with coronavirus that we have now examined, all suffered from severe pre-existing conditions and were not children or adolescents. The COVID-19 infection was the straw that broke the camel’s back.”


6101 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Oaks79, 14, #464 of 616 🔗

Looks like proper lockdown criticism is breaking though into the mainstream in Germany, but not in opinion managed Britain.

6191 ▶▶ swedenborg, replying to Oaks79, 4, #465 of 616 🔗

I think we should be thankful that German pathologists still are working in the traditions of Robert Koch (Btw Koch postulates for infectious disease, have they been fulfilled for Covid-19 or are they old fashioned?).This Hamburg Professor has actually autopsied 180 patients and found these results. When the first information came out from Wuhan it was striking (if I remember correct) that only 3 or 4 autopsies had been done. So what are the beacons of science , US and UK recommending about post mortem of Covid-19 cases? Inventing crazy rules that it is hazardous to do autopsies on Covid-19 victims and recommending express cremations like criminals burning up their evidence.

6230 ▶▶▶ Pebbles, replying to swedenborg, 4, #466 of 616 🔗

The irony in all this is that the German Robert Koch Institute, heavily enamored with the Bill Gates Foundation by the way, as is the leading virologist / gov advisor Drosten, advised AGAINST autopsy postmortems in March due to fear of teams risking infection…! Every reputable scientist knows that pathology is THE way of knowing about real lethality of a virus or any other illness, so why not conduct autopsies…? Why ban them? Prof Püschel simply decided to say F$&@ IT, and did it anyway and came to the above conclusion. Other pathologist followed, and most autopsy postmortems seem to reveal Covid-19 was not the leading cause of death…. when he went on national television in Germany in April, the backlash was furious obviously,but RKI has since revised its original strategy and is now „allowing“ postmortems officially…! I have asked this before but where are British pathologists? What are postmortems showing in the UK? Or aren’t any being done, if so…why not?

6121 ▶▶ Mark, replying to wendyk, 3, #468 of 616 🔗

We’re almost certainly seeing a lot more than that. It seems certain that we are dramatically overstating the covid death toll because of lax procedures, as pointed out recently by Dr John Lee:


And if we are to take the figures from the antibody testing referred to in this article seriously, suggesting that around 4 per cent of Britain and 10 per cent of London has developed antibodies, that would suggest infection fatality rates of well above 1 – absurdly out of line with other estimates.

The most plausible explanation is simply that the number of deaths attributed to the virus in the UK is way too high.

6129 ▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Mark, 6, #469 of 616 🔗

Suggest the 10% antibody figure for London is a massive underestimate, bearing in mind that New York (city not state) has been shown provisionally from random testing in April to be above 20%. Implication being this is a retrospective fit to the Imperial 0.9% CFR bearing in mind the Prime Minister was still using the 500k unmitigated death expectation that the original Imperial model churned out at yesterday’s press conference. We are now in the realm of justifying retrospectively the decision to lock down the economy – the biggest mistake to have ever been taken by so few to the detrimental effect of so many that will ever be seen in mine, my children’s and my grandchildren’s lifetime.

6144 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 3, #470 of 616 🔗

Yes, it does see rather implausibly low. I’m looking out for further discussion of this info.

“the decision to lock down the economy – the biggest mistake to have ever been taken by so few to the detrimental effect of so many that will ever be seen in mine, my children’s and my grandchildren’s lifetime.”

Preach it, sistah!

6151 ▶▶▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Mark, 1, #471 of 616 🔗

Thanks Mark. I will. This is my first post, but I will be back!

6157 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Tyneside Tigress, #472 of 616 🔗

Looking forward to it. My take is that future generations of academics and students will study 2020 not for the tiny (if any) bump in disease mortality stats, but rather to understand the panic and how it came about and was enabled to cause such profound economic, social, cultural and strategic damage.

6211 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Mark, 4, #473 of 616 🔗

Don’t hold your breath for academics to study this. It’s akin to the climate change bandwagon – you will not get any funding unless you are on the right side of the ‘science is settled’ debate. What annoys/upsets me most as a woman whose natural response to most things is to fight (blame it on my father!), is that the ‘powers that be’ have done such a superb job working on girls and women over the last decade or so. The establishment has worked on the middle class, metropolitan progressive women and their daughters. They are the ones that precipitated the lockdown, and Boris, a man with more than a penchant for a middle class, metropolitan progressive woman was easy game!

6216 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Tyneside Tigress, #474 of 616 🔗

Not going to disagree with the points you make (good point about Johnson’s particular weakness there), but I was thinking about academics etc decades hence, when hopefully all these issues are ancient history and no longer so distorted by the politics.

6234 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Mark, 1, #475 of 616 🔗

Of course, economic and social historians trail the National Archives for hours on end for declassified government documents. Some/most of us will be dead by then – how to change the status quo?

6186 ▶▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Mark, 2, #476 of 616 🔗

It all depends on when the test was done and whom they tested. You need to account for how long it takes for antibodies to appear (about 4 to 5 weeks) and for how long it takes to die (about 3 weeks). So whatever date the test was done on the IFR is the number dead 2 weeks or so before that over the percentage of the population infected that the antibody tests indicate.

Somebody mentioned this 10% in London thing yesterday and I commented on it further down. I found a link and estimated the IFR based on the information in there (it comes out to less than 0.1% but there are caveats, see below). But I can’t find an actual published study about these tests.

If it’s only 10% immune in London and 5% everywhere else _now_ then Ferguson was right and we’re doomed. But this would be inconsistent with all the other antibody studies and all the other less direct evidence.

6219 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to guy153, #477 of 616 🔗

Yes, that’s a fair point. I’d still say that gross overstatement of the numbers of covid deaths is likely to be a big factor as well.

6235 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Mark, #478 of 616 🔗

Probably but the main objective (for me anyway) is to see where we are in the epidemic, less to see how many people actually died. From that point of view you need to compare like for like. So I would rather everyone reported “deaths with Covid”– then we can compare Spain with Italy with the UK. Or at least have some chance of doing so.

To see how many people actually died it’s best just to look at excess deaths. The main difficulty with that now is all the deaths caused by the lockdown.

Flu deaths are just counted as excess winter deaths so this is also the best way to compare Covid with flu. If we do want to dig down into how many of those people really died _of_ Covid we might find the IFR is much lower than 0.1%. But nobody is counting flu like that either.

6225 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to guy153, #479 of 616 🔗

I might be wrong, but I think you are referring to Carl Heneghan’s analysis of the ONS data, covered yesterday in The Telegraph? The 10% antibody positive number for London was from Sir Patrick Vallance at last night’s press conference (with Boris and Chris Whitty). My gut feel was that he was being somewhat evasive in response to the question (from a member of the public). Why would Ferguson’s analysis be accurate – it was based on a model he had ‘in his head’ and using a dataset from China. Should anyone with half a brain trust that, let alone in full knowledge that his track record is hardly stellar?

6231 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Tyneside Tigress, #480 of 616 🔗

Ferguson’s model is just assumptions, but antibody testing is actual data. If Vallance was trying to imply that 10% of London are antibody postive now based on tests done in early April then he was being deliberately misleading. I didn’t hear what he said because I don’t watch any of these awful people on TV 🙂

6242 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to guy153, #481 of 616 🔗

You are correct – he was talking about data (random?) from earlier in April. The dataset, methodology and analysis has not been released, however, so not available for us to interrogate. A few excellent questions from members of the public – Boris was all over the place!

6140 ▶▶▶ wendyk, replying to Mark, #482 of 616 🔗


6118 Hammer Onats, replying to Hammer Onats, 19, #483 of 616 🔗

More and more signs of people regaining their sanity. I live in the Borders, on the side controlled by Thicola Sturgeon. This morning, I saw a big increase in traffic on the A1 – not quite back to normal but getting there. The Covid postings on our local FB page have almost disappeared and those who do post are mostly ignored, indeed some are now openly ridiculed. The building sites have not opened yet but there are loads of local tradespeople out and about and small business builders are back on the job. Sturgeon was on the Biased Broadcasting Corporation last night almost pleading with Scots to follow her “rules” but, other than hard core Nats, most people take the view that Boris is our PM and they will follow what he says, not what a jumped up town councillor says. Needless to say, Plod Alba is now nowhere to be seen.

6132 ▶▶ Back To Normal, replying to Hammer Onats, 4, #484 of 616 🔗

Yes, Nicola Sturgeon (or wee Krankie to some) seems determined to maintain Scotland’s PERi-ometer index at “Hot”, while England opts for “Medium”.

6137 ▶▶ wendyk, replying to Hammer Onats, 5, #485 of 616 🔗

She Who Must Be Obeyed now disobeyed by more and more of us. Our window cleaners are back and local gardening service contractors are busy.
Perhaps we could persuade Wee Krankie to stay home and save her breath.

6145 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to wendyk, 1, #486 of 616 🔗

wendyk, perhaps Ms Sturgeon is using that Traey Ullman mickey-take as her inspiration!

6158 ▶▶▶▶ wendyk, replying to kh1485, #487 of 616 🔗

You could be right!

6133 ▶▶ wendyk, replying to Markus, #489 of 616 🔗

More evidence of the nudging strategy

6128 ▶▶ Poppy, replying to tonyspurs, 7, #491 of 616 🔗

Don’t know what he’s on, he said this morning the gov was considering the ‘bubble’ idea. He must know that people won’t stand for this. It’s one thing for families/those already in a relationship, but I worry about single folks who will be unable or find it significantly harder to meet a partner if these restrictions go on much longer. Could we see new cohort of incels…? I do hope the public will come to its senses in these next few weeks.

6179 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Poppy, 5, #492 of 616 🔗

People will just start shagging at work.
Not that they ever stopped.

6134 ▶▶ A13, replying to tonyspurs, 6, #493 of 616 🔗

What a bunch of clowns. Let’s hope that incompetence will stop these muppets from doing any further damage. They are like a villain from Austin Powers rather than from James Bond movies.

6135 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to tonyspurs, 7, #494 of 616 🔗

Just read that the furlough scheme has been extended to October … I despair

6142 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to kh1485, 1, #495 of 616 🔗

Hey it’s just a case of plucking a bit more fruit from the magic money tree. What could possibly go wrong?

6148 ▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Mark, 5, #496 of 616 🔗

Oh yes, silly me! RIP UK plc, it was nice while it lasted …

6180 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to kh1485, 3, #497 of 616 🔗


6182 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Farinances, 4, #498 of 616 🔗

I mean. Isn’t that just the nail in the nationwide bankruptcy coffin?

6187 ▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Farinances, 3, #499 of 616 🔗

Funnily enough, that was my exact same response!

6147 ▶▶ Gracie Knoll, replying to tonyspurs, 12, #500 of 616 🔗

He knows exactly what he’s doing:

“The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, Matt Hancock, is also owner of Porton Biopharma during his tenure; but that is not the only tie that Hancock appears to have to for-profit entities that stand to benefit from Covid–19 response strategies.”

Source: https://off-guardian.org/2020/05/10/covid19-the-big-pharma-players-behind-uk-government-lockdown/

So our Health Secretary is in bed with Big Pharma. Well, well, well, it’s all beginning to get so clear now.

6150 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Gracie Knoll, 2, #501 of 616 🔗

Surprise, surprise …

6154 ▶▶▶ Gracie Knoll, replying to Gracie Knoll, 8, #502 of 616 🔗

And it’s also suddenly very clear to me why our GOVERNMENT has been issuing disinformation about safe, inexpensive treatments that could save lives.

See the mind-blowing video by Professor Dolores Cahill https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Avc6_ftzk3w

This woman is a bloody heroine, whereas –


6156 ▶▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Gracie Knoll, 1, #503 of 616 🔗

And isn’t that what some of us have been saying and are greeted with the derisory term ‘conspiracy theorist’?

6161 ▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 6, #504 of 616 🔗

Exactly. One thing for me that has come out of this seemingly never-ending nightmare is that I will never vote again. I always thought I owed it to my late grandfather’s generation to do so but until – as Peter Hitchens says – the major parties are smashed and someone is actually brave enough to stand for the truth, I just won’t bother.

6169 ▶▶▶▶▶ Gracie Knoll, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 3, #505 of 616 🔗

Ah yes, Nige, the good old “if you challenge the brainwashing you’re a ‘conspiracy theorist’ ” gambit, a psychological ploy set up by the Warren Commission after JFK’s assassination.

And by God it’s worked well……until now.

6209 ▶▶▶ Victoria, replying to Gracie Knoll, 4, #506 of 616 🔗

Thanks for the information. Absolutely shocking. Government Ministers advisers should NEVER be involved in Industries where there is conflict of interest. It is not allowed in private practice but seems as if it is rife in the Public Sector.

The farce continues, the reopening of schools plan is as ‘clear as mud’, people can’t return to work if they have to homeschool kids. Only 3 months ago parents were fined if they took their kids out of school to go on holiday because these kids could apparently not afford to miss even one day of education. Now these same kids missed more than a month of education and many more to come and it is acceptable. Talk about double standards.

6233 ▶▶ Paul, replying to tonyspurs, 3, #507 of 616 🔗

I can’t stand Hancock,smarmy and condescending,as all of them are.If you wrote a book with characters like these in government and you had them say the same things,your publisher would throw it back at you and say it was to far-fetched.Every day I really do think a lot of them are actually insane.

6323 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Paul, #508 of 616 🔗

Hancock has apparently huge amounts of money invested in vaccines..

6130 Mr Jim McGregor, 9, #509 of 616 🔗

I’m sorely tempted to post a (still) pro-Brexit, (still) anti Scottish Nationalist and (budding) Lockdown Sceptic post. However, I feat that this may “break the Internet” as all my Facebook friends pile on to denounce me.

6146 Mimi, 3, #510 of 616 🔗

CDC’s own research finding that masks don’t help with flu (and handwashing is of dubious value too): https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

6153 Hammer Onats, replying to Hammer Onats, 5, #511 of 616 🔗

This guy, whoever he is, seems to have very good connections. Full details on the furlough scheme almost as soon as it was announced on BBC. His main thrust seems to be that if you are de-furloughed by your employer and don’t go back you will be sacked. That should bring a bit of sense to those who think they are on an extended sabbatical. @MrMasonMills

6213 ▶▶ swedenborg, replying to Hammer Onats, 1, #512 of 616 🔗

Is not that twitter account really Dominic Cummings? Many have earlier suggest that

6163 BrianJR, replying to BrianJR, 12, #513 of 616 🔗

So the ONS stats are out, these are the only ones that really count that show total deaths everywhere. But they are always 2 weeks behind time.
And the headlines are out about the 40,000 excess deaths (calculated I imagine against the 5 year average. It is all available online at the ONS site.
I thought I’d do a little calculation of the excess deaths to see which age groups are most affected, and to what scale when taking excess deaths against total population by age group – also available on ONS website.

I hope the table is legible – damned hard to past it into a comments box. But it shows an interesting picture that I don’t suppose the BBC will show – that there are LESS deaths per week in the last 5 weeks amongst the 20-24 year old group. Guess that’s because they are not out boozing, drug taking and reckless driving ;-))

Hope you find it as interesting as I do – certainly gives a bit of perspective. Certainly makes me wonder why anyone under the age of (insert your own view here) is under lockdown when the chances are 1 in (insert your own again) of becoming and excess death stat.

Can’t post the spreadsheet for peer review, but anyone with basic Google Sheets, and “cut & paste” skills can do what I did.

Age Excess Deaths Population % Excess of Pop.
20-24 -26 4,153,080 -0.0006%
25-29 35 4,514,249 0.0008%
30-34 40 4,497,132 0.0009%
35-39 93 4,395,667 0.0021%
40-44 144 4,019,539 0.0036%
45-49 404 4,402,122 0.0092%
50-54 714 4,661,015 0.0153%
55-59 1093 4,405,908 0.0248%
60-64 1609 3,755,185 0.0428%
65-69 2146 3,368,199 0.0637%
70-74 3460 3,318,867 0.1043%
75-79 5192 2,325,296 0.2233%
80-84 7387 1,715,328 0.4306%
85-89 8214 1,042,090 0.7883%
90+ 9024 605,181 1.4912%
Total 39,556 (note I have excluded the -26 from this total)

6164 ▶▶ BrianJR, replying to BrianJR, 1, #514 of 616 🔗

oh bugger, it looked ok before posting – still legible if you just dscount the spaces.
So for 50-54 year olds there were 714 excess deaths in a population of 50-54 year olds of 4,661,015 etc.
As said, can’t past an image or table – I tried !

6167 ▶▶▶ BrianJR, replying to BrianJR, 2, #515 of 616 🔗

nor apparently can I spell and type “paste” !

6203 ▶▶ The Spingler, replying to BrianJR, 5, #516 of 616 🔗

The ONS stats jumped out at me too, today. for winter 2019/20 excess deaths to 1 May 40,000. Apparently 19/20 was running below average up until CV19 hit. Looking at past non-Covid years, in 2017/18 excess winter deaths were 50k, 14/15 40k, 08/09 36k, 99/00 48k, 98/99 47k, 97/97 48k, 89/90 47k. The last average (five year moving average was measured in 16/17 at 35k. Point being that excess deaths over 40k are not unusual and happen every few years, presumably to a particularly bad flu season.

6166 Nigel Baldwin, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 9, #517 of 616 🔗

More examples of this nincompoop government and their lack of joined up thinking. I need some compost for my ruddy garden and now garden centres are open I can get some (I’m not paying £17 a bag to keep Besos in caviar). Trouble is: I don’t have a car. Apparently I can get a cab with an unknown driver who may well by asymptomatic, after all they’re driving customers all day (wouldn’t be be me haven’t seen a human being for weeks) but I can’t get my good neighbour, who is an ICU nurse and has had the damn thing (probably, he was never tested), so is likely to be immune to drive me, even though he’d love to and I’d save a cab fare. Madness.

6172 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 7, #518 of 616 🔗

Do it anyway. Nobody will even know or care.

6178 ▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Farinances, #519 of 616 🔗

i would but I can’t afford to risk a hundred quid.

6185 ▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 6, #520 of 616 🔗

Perhaps we could set up a crowd-funding page to raise funds to pay lockdownsceptics’ fines for collective non-compliance!

6174 Jonathan Castro, replying to Jonathan Castro, 26, #521 of 616 🔗

Latest letter emailed to department of health ministers:

I am writing to express my concern at the on-going lock-down, which is having a very bad effect on our economy, the lives and living standards of millions across the country.

I did not support the lock-down, seeing it as an overreaction against a virus which affects mainly the older generation and which has an extremely small death rate for those under 60.

Given that we did not adopt Taiwan’s approach back in January, we should in my opinion have followed a similar course of action to Sweden, which has had no lock-down and death rates lower than in other European countries.

However, we are where we are and the latest guidelines from the government will be taken with a pinch of salt by many people, including myself. We are not interested in reading through a 50 page document telling us what we can and can’t do. Instead, we will continue to operate as normal and meet with whom we wish, when we wish to. It is not the duty of government to mess with our liberties. To be frank, we’re just not bothered anymore.

I believe it’s time to lift the lock-down in full and get back to normality. The Nightingale hospitals are empty and there is no reason to continue on the present course.

Thanks for your time.

6183 ▶▶ Jonathan Castro, replying to Jonathan Castro, 2, #522 of 616 🔗

P.S. You can also comment at Department of Health, at https://contactus.dhsc.gov.uk/

6224 ▶▶ Paul, replying to Jonathan Castro, 9, #523 of 616 🔗

Well put Jonathan,you echo my thoughts exactly.I am getting sick and tired of those twisted minds in positions of authority constantly inventing convoluted ways to make our lives ever more difficult.I will not be using any public transport that will be treating us like livestock or infant children and I won’t be spending any money with any shop or business that makes customers queue outside in long lines like we are in the USSR with petty little Stalins barking orders at us before we are graciously allowed to enter a few at a time to be hurried around stupid one way systems all the time being told not to touch things if we aren’t going to buy them.
We need normal back now,not in six months or a year or whenever,there is no such thing as ‘the new normal’ because that is simply abnormal and not sustainable in any way.

6229 ▶▶▶ Gracie Knoll, replying to Paul, 8, #524 of 616 🔗

Any politician who uses the phrase “new normal” should be automatically considered a traitor to the British people. And that should be made very clear to these slimeballs.

6270 ▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Gracie Knoll, 1, #525 of 616 🔗

Indeed. Still waiting for a response from my MP.

6312 ▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to kh1485, #526 of 616 🔗

Weird, just received a response (and, depressingly, it’s what I expected):

Thank you for your email regarding the measures the Government has introduced to combat the ongoing coronavirus crisis.

I was sorry to read of how coronavirus has affected your business – and indeed of the unfortunate events of last year.

The Government is acutely aware of the impact of its necessary actions on our economy. That is why it announced a huge and unprecedented package of support, initially worth £330 billion and representing 15% UK GDP, to support businesses through this immensely challenging time. And the Chancellor has confirmed today, 12 May 2020, that one of the central components of this programme of support, the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme, will be extended to October. When the Government said it would do everything it can to help firms of all sizes through this period, it meant it.

The extension to the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme is, of course, to be welcomed, especially in light of the additional support also available, including: 12-month business rates holidays; small business grant funding; the Bounce Back Loan Scheme; and the Coronavirus Business Interruption Loan Scheme. This package of measures has been carefully designed with the express purpose of helping businesses cope with the unforeseen challenges engendered by the ongoing pandemic. While the Government remains committed to doing whatever it takes to support our economy through this crisis, it has also been clear that helping the private sector steady the ship is second only to preserving the health of the nation – and lifting the lockdown early would be disastrous for both. I would therefore strongly encourage you to make use of any and all support for which you may be eligible.

While the Government looks forward to relinquishing these temporary powers the moment it is safe to do so, it is right that it does so responsibly. That is why on Sunday, 10 May 2020, the Prime Minister addressed the nation and set out the Government’s plan for easing the restrictions currently in place. And while I suspect this may not be the answer for which you were hoping, it is absolutely crucial that we ease the lockdown measures in a carefully managed manner so we can avert the very real risk of a second wave of infections. That is why, in the short-term, those for whom it is safe and practicable to do so will be encouraged to return to work while those who can continue to work from home will be encouraged to continue doing so. And again, when it is safe to do so, and no earlier than 1 June 2020, the Government will seek to reopen non-essential retail, subject to strict guidance on best practice in order to contain the virus still.

Ultimately, the level of support currently being provided is not sustainable for a prolonged period of time, and as the Government continues to be led by the science and adjusts the restrictions as appropriate, it will also need to wind down the economic support measures as people are eased back to work

6190 mark baker, replying to mark baker, 8, #527 of 616 🔗

Shocking news about ANOTHER terrible condition that is sweeping the nation it is estimated will kill 34,000 people this year in the UK and 2.8 million people worldwide. It’s going to cost the NHS £5 billion just this year and will very probably keep increasing.
I welcome the draconian response to Coronavirus. Where lives are at stake (regardless of how many – estimates vary wildly), no quarter should be given. The only thing that matters is saving lives. We should be prepared to endure economic devastation and completely re-organise the way our society is run just so we can defeat this virus.
We should take the same zero-tolerance approach to this condition I was talking about. Sorry, I forgot to say its name!!! Silly me!! It’s OBESITY. Yes, obesity kills 34,000 people in this country every year. Costs the NHS £5 billion. Obviously, lockdown won’t help with that but there are certainly drastic measures we could take. You could say, fat people are only harming themselves but that’s not true, is it? What about fat parents who die and leave their children orphaned? What about fat people in key jobs? What about the excess room they take up on the tube, which makes proper social distancing really hard?? No, sorry, the time has come to CRACK DOWN on obesity, ERADICATE it. I propose the following simple measures:
Ban all sales of chocolate, cakes, ice-cream and biscuits.
ENFORCE 5-a-day
Take the Government’s admirable hour-a-day exercise recommendation and make it compulsory.
Just imagine, we could eradicate obesity, we could save tens of thousands of lives, we could save the NHS!! Come on people, we can do it!!

6249 ▶▶ Disgruntled, replying to mark baker, 6, #528 of 616 🔗

Smoking kills 70,000-80,000 people in the UK every year according to the NHS website and no one gives a monkeys. The govt could ban it tomorrow and save nearly three times as many as have died from coronavirus, in perpetuity.

Apparently the economic or civil liberties argument is enough to save the tobacco industry, yet we shut down the entire country and lock everyone up for Covid. Madness.

6258 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Disgruntled, 1, #529 of 616 🔗

I wonder what the figures are for hospital acquired infections (i.e. sepsis) and prescription drug-induced deaths and deaths from polypharmacy in the elderly? Sorry, it’s a rant but I am getting angry (business forcibly closed; financial concerns/liberty removed possibly never to be regained and to top it all some zealot potentially coming towards me with a hypodermic full of something that a) contains god knows what and b) some little government scrote stands to make a mint out of.

6388 ▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Disgruntled, #530 of 616 🔗

RTAs have a pretty high number of fatalities, so can we ban unnecessary car journeys – you know those ones people do for fun, like going out to the seaside? I mean, it’s not essential is it? Get a grip.

6195 A13, replying to A13, 10, #531 of 616 🔗

Plexiglass between airplane seats. WTF.
What difference will it make if you sit next to someone for 8hrs!
I wonder how many other ridiculous solutions we’ll see in the next coming months? I suggest we organise an awards for the worst covid inventions.

6199 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to A13, 1, #532 of 616 🔗

Just read on the Beeb website that Ryanair have stipulated that passengers will have to ask permission to use the toilet!

6250 ▶▶▶ Snake Oil Pussy, replying to kh1485, #533 of 616 🔗

OK so this time they’ll get away with charging £1 a time, which they’ve previously tried and failed. Also with charging extra for overweight passengers, on the grounds they’re at higher risk of catching / passing on Covid19.

6261 ▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, 1, #534 of 616 🔗

Not to mention the indignity of it: “Please miss can I go to the toilet” God give me strength.

6268 ▶▶▶ Ethelred the Unready, replying to kh1485, 3, #535 of 616 🔗

Put up your hand and say “please miss”

6326 ▶▶▶ Old fred, replying to kh1485, #536 of 616 🔗

loud mouth O’Leary – any publicity is good…

6201 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to A13, 2, #537 of 616 🔗

Our company is going to issue us all with ‘key ring door hooks’. To allow ‘non-contact opening and closing of public doors’.

I can’t wait …

6205 ▶▶ wendyk, replying to A13, 4, #538 of 616 🔗

Having spoken to a local dental nurse today, I’m wondering how on earth our much needed dentists will be able to operate effectively in the future.

Virtually every procedure in modern dentistry generates aerosols; how will this be dealt with?

Dentists must be in very close proximity to their patients so how will they decide on distancing, priorities for treatment, routine examinations and basic procedures like the scale and polish?

The British Dental Association has this :


6206 ▶▶ wendyk, replying to A13, 3, #539 of 616 🔗

What about art classes for adults? Very popular here. Perspex barriers around easels?

Distancing will cause problems, and as for life drawing classes: will the models have to pose, either behind perspex or similar, or else take the plunge and pose, as customary, au naturel, while wearing plastic head gear?

6210 ▶▶ wendyk, replying to A13, 2, #540 of 616 🔗

Riding and driving lessons: social distancing? How?
Padded seats? Goggles? Arm extensions?

6222 ▶▶▶ A13, replying to wendyk, 20, #541 of 616 🔗

I think that we should have two types of coffee shops, hairdressers, massage parlours, and other similar establishments: one, for those who suffer from covid derangement syndrome with all the pseudo-security measures in place, and another type for everyone else. I suggest a clear messaging in the window so everyone can decide for themselves.

6263 ▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to A13, #542 of 616 🔗

What a fantastic idea! I may use that in my (coffee) shop when I am allowed back. Not only do we need a badge, we need a poster. Thanks for that!

6289 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to kh1485, 3, #543 of 616 🔗

Perhaps what we need to do is organise ourselves as minority group and agitate for our cultural rights not to be forced to act like big girls blouses over flu-like diseases, and ultimately to campaign for non-territorial secession.

6328 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Mark, #544 of 616 🔗

🙂 Brilliant …

6330 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Mark, #545 of 616 🔗

Excellent idea.

6367 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to kh1485, #546 of 616 🔗

Apologies for the double comment: the first one disappeared – I haven’t gone completely mad …

6397 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to kh1485, #547 of 616 🔗

Can anyone here make badges and distribute them? Or T shirts? With the slogan ‘I do not suffer from CDS’ writ large. I’d buy one. And then when people ask what is CDS we can tell them. (And if they look threatening we can always say ‘Cognitive Dissonance syndrome’ somewhat ironically tee hee. )

6226 ▶▶▶ wendyk, replying to wendyk, 4, #548 of 616 🔗

And choir practice? 2 friends are active members : social distancing effected by raising volume of one’s singing voice by means of a patented anti covid-19 megaphone-different speaking tube lengths depending on vocal pitch.
Choir master/mistress directs from platform surrounded by barrier. Audio enhancing facial protection coming soon.

6297 ▶▶ ambwozere, replying to A13, 1, #549 of 616 🔗

Imagine trying to do ballroom/latin dancing then whilst socially distanced. We’d all need full hazmat suits for it to even be considered “safe” 🤦‍♀️

6325 ▶▶ Old fred, replying to A13, 1, #550 of 616 🔗

On the plus side it would mean I had the seat to myself – fed up with overweight passengers invading my space.

6204 paulito, replying to paulito, 18, #551 of 616 🔗

Hello all fellow sceptics. I’ve been following this site for a while now but only posted for the first time yesterday. I live in Spain and it’s occurred to me that it might be useful to share information about what’s going on in other countries. It’s easy to keep up with the English speaking world but as there are British and Irish people all over the place, developments everywhere can be followed. I’ve been trying to make sense of this nonsense but up till now have resisted the idea that it’s nothing more than mass hysteria and incompetence, or cowardice on the part of governments but I think there’s something incredibly sinister behind all of this. Sorry for sounding alarmist but this site is the only place I can express my fears about what’s going on. Many thanks to Toby for setting this up and to everyone who contributes.

6218 ▶▶ anti_corruption_tsar, replying to paulito, #552 of 616 🔗

Go to Martin Armstrong’s website armstrongeconomics.com where he sets out very clearly the sinister agenda in many of his posts.

6221 ▶▶▶ paulito, replying to anti_corruption_tsar, #553 of 616 🔗

Thanks, I’ll have a look.

6236 ▶▶ scepticalsue, replying to paulito, #554 of 616 🔗

Hi Paulito, and welcome! What’s the latest situation in Spain? I saw a few days ago that there were signs of an anti lockdown protest in the Salamanca area of Madrid as they’ve had particularly strict conditions imposed upon them, but I’d be interested to hear your experiences if you’re willing to share!

6265 ▶▶▶ paulito, replying to scepticalsue, 3, #555 of 616 🔗

Hello, Haven’t seen anything about protests as such but pólice did break up over 400 house parties and 97 Street drinking parties in Madrid on Saturday. Madrid city and region were also prohibited from moving to Phase 1 of the so called “transition to the New Normal” which has seen a slight easing of the restrictions in the majority of automous regions on Monday. This caused protests from the autonomous government and I imagine irritated many. Vox, a party which admires the dictatorship of Franco, have called for a protest for the 23rd of this month involving a cavalcade of cars waving Spanish flags They did however vote for the first lockdown and it’s extensions, although they did vote against the last one last week. i live on the north coast and was looking forward to going into the city centre yesterday but was disheartened to see more than 90% of people wearing masks. Hope this helps.

6208 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 6, #556 of 616 🔗

Just out from Evidence Based Medicine Oxford Group. Devastating criticism against Dr Fauci’s rush to have this drug and calling it a game changer.Anybody doubting now that the whole Covid-19 debacle is a whole Big Pharma approach or are we just paranoic extremists according to BBC ?

6227 ▶▶ Sam, replying to swedenborg, 1, #557 of 616 🔗

This is disturbing. (And hadn’t heard of “study 329” before but that’s horrendous.)

6239 ▶▶ Gracie Knoll, replying to swedenborg, 1, #558 of 616 🔗

Anything that’s “according to the BBC” means the OPPOSITE is true. This is, and always has been, a Pharma power grab and a Globalist agenda.

6401 ▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Gracie Knoll, #559 of 616 🔗

I’m glad it’s becoming clear. Resist.

6212 Gracie Knoll, replying to Gracie Knoll, 14, #560 of 616 🔗

Flagging this up again:



If this lady’s credentials are sound, and if what she says is correct, then:

1) By rights, everyone should be back at work tomorrow
2) There is NO need for “Brave New Normal” or anything like it
3) Certain individuals – possibly including members of HM Govt. – should face trial for crimes against humanity and/or high treason against the British people (and against the peoples of all nations).

If this information is correct, the whole pandemic is a power grab to remove our civil rights and mandate pharmaceutical treatments.

6232 ▶▶ DocRC, replying to Gracie Knoll, 4, #561 of 616 🔗

I’ve just finished watching this and she seems eminently sensible. As far as I can tell her CV appears impeccable (the BBC etc. wouldn’t like the fact that she is the Chairman of the Irish Freedom Party who want to leave the EU). Where I can check what she says against my own medical knowledge, such as stuff about vitamin D and the research on the efficacy of hydroxychloroquine (which bizarrely Doctors in the US have been discouraged from using) she is bang on. I am checking some of the other claims with medical friends in immunology/ biotech. She does stray into conspiracy theories re Bill Gates/ Big Pharma and it’s difficult to believe all Western Governments are in on this. However the info at the end about the insertion of the base sequences into the coronavirus RNA was fascinating and is another indication that Covid-19 did indeed come from the Wuhan lab.

6238 ▶▶▶ Gracie Knoll, replying to DocRC, 4, #562 of 616 🔗

As comedian and philosopher George Carlin said: “Forget about politicians. They’re just there to make you think you have a choice. You have no choice. You have OWNERS.”

Politicians of all governments are bought and sold by the Corporatocracy. The MSM is owned by the Corporatocracy. Politicians do what their owners tell them to do.

Therefore our politicians are powerless to stop this. Only the British People can. We must refuse mandatory vaccines, refuse tagging, tracing, microchipping, and above all refuse the “new normal”.

6277 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Gracie Knoll, #563 of 616 🔗

For me, the ‘above all’ would be imprisoning as many owners as possible. That would give the many out-of-work youngsters something to get their teeth into.

6275 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to DocRC, 1, #564 of 616 🔗

” and it’s difficult to believe all Western Governments are in on this.”.

Nevertheless, I think it’s the governments of 140 countries – worldwide, not just in the West. (I’ve taken to asking people if they’ve ever tried to get 14 people, never mind 140 countries, to act in unison.).

This, together with the rabid 6 week propaganda onslaught by the beeb and the newspapers, with Peter Hitchens (!) the only dissenting voice, makes it pretty evidently a matter of conspiracy fact.

6322 ▶▶▶ GLT, replying to DocRC, 1, #565 of 616 🔗

Thanks for this. Would be interesting if you get any further feedback!

6302 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Gracie Knoll, 1, #566 of 616 🔗

That is excellent, thank you

6404 ▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Gracie Knoll, #567 of 616 🔗

Gracie, sent you an email with a recent later K recording. It’s an eye opener

6217 paulito, #568 of 616 🔗

my last post should’ve read resisted the idea that it¡s “anything” more than mass hysteria

6220 Oaks79, replying to Oaks79, 9, #569 of 616 🔗

From Peter Hitchens Twitter
1/2 Pathologist Dr John Lee on BBC R4 ‘World at One’ https://t.co/didb6FDJ33 (25 mins) ‘Epidemiological modelling is more like weather forecasting than it is like laboratory science’…

6286 ▶▶ Jonathan Castro, replying to Oaks79, 1, #570 of 616 🔗

It’s probably worse than weather forecasting.

6317 ▶▶ Old fred, replying to Oaks79, #571 of 616 🔗

Weather forecasting is at least based on scientific measurements!!!

6237 rodmclaughlin, replying to rodmclaughlin, 1, #572 of 616 🔗

Check this out, in the Guardian – ‘Coronavirus is the ultimate demonstration of the real-world impact of racism’ – https://archive.is/10uKm

It mentions this site, as well as Quillette

6240 ▶▶ guy153, replying to rodmclaughlin, 3, #573 of 616 🔗

More racism here:


Maybe 12 million excess deaths of people of all ages over the next 8 years in Africa and South-East Asia.

6266 ▶▶▶ Ethelred the Unready, replying to guy153, 1, #574 of 616 🔗

Quickly, we must send (more, much, much more) aid cash in order to further embellish our woke credentials. We could have a clap too.

6244 ▶▶ Mark, replying to rodmclaughlin, 1, #575 of 616 🔗

Reads like the usual incoherent babble of the antiracist zealot, trying to insist that race is simultaneously all important and meaningless, switching tactically according to which position best suits his or her particular point. Still, useful to hear about Quillette, haven’t come across that before, I’ll have to look it up.

Comical as well the way these people spend decades smearing political opponents as “racists” and demanding (even rioting) to enforce “no platforming” and outright censorship for said political opponents, and then act all surprised when they find a few genuine supporters of free speech not backing their position. Bed made, you get to lie in it, antiracists.

Anyway, back on topic for this site, she insists that the evidence is that the higher covid death rates for black and asian folk is entirely down to circumstance and not to direct causation, and I do recall at least one study reporting that. But I also recall a couple of studies suggesting those factors can’t account for all the difference and in fact race does seem to be a causative factor (one fairly common suggestion being that it might be to do with skin colour and vitamin D levels). Not sure the position is clear either way, tbh.

6259 ▶▶▶ GLT, replying to Mark, 3, #576 of 616 🔗

Toby had pointed to a study of NHS deaths so far indicating high proportion of BAME mortality amongst doctors. Not traditionally considered a disadvantaged group. Being lazy and asserting disadvantage just denies people the benefit of proper research.

6260 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Mark, 7, #577 of 616 🔗

Biology, not racism. (vitamin D deficiency, basically, and predisposition to comorbidities such as the diabeetus/high blood pressure)

But we all know how much these idiots like denying biological reality. Probably why they all now refuse to acknowledge that the human immune system is a thing.

6269 ▶▶▶ rodmclaughlin, replying to Mark, #578 of 616 🔗

Apparently, we’ve been “given carte blanche to vilify migrants and Muslims, double down on anti-blackness and anti-Roma racism, and ramp up antisemitism in the interests of media “balance””. You can’t make it up.

6281 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to rodmclaughlin, 3, #579 of 616 🔗

Well, when you can’t win an argument there are three popular options beyond just keep arguing:

1 Agree to disagree and maybe try again later with some new information and points to make

2 Accept that maybe they’ve got a point

3 Accuse the other guy of heresy and have him silenced.

Unfortunately option 3 seems to be the most popular these days.

6245 ▶▶ rodmclaughlin, replying to rodmclaughlin, 2, #580 of 616 🔗

More: “The British associate editor of Quillette magazine, Toby Young, epitomises the worrying nexus between “free speech” advocacy, eugenics cheerleading and now coronavirus scepticism.”


6246 ▶▶▶ grammarschoolman, replying to rodmclaughlin, 1, #581 of 616 🔗

Good for him.

6271 ▶▶▶ paulito, replying to rodmclaughlin, 6, #582 of 616 🔗

Thanks for reading this drivel so the rest of us don’t have to.

6241 Oaks79, 6, #583 of 616 🔗

6 new cases in Wuhan, expect mass bed wetting

6255 Farinances, replying to Farinances, 12, #584 of 616 🔗

Lord Sumption was on Today on Radio 4 yesterday TRASHING the media and the government.

God, I love him. Nick Robinson trying desperately to argue with him….. and failing :oD

6274 ▶▶ DocRC, replying to Farinances, #585 of 616 🔗

Was it yesterday or today? Any idea what time as I am trying to find the interview of BBC Sounds but the Today program is 3 hours long!

6279 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to DocRC, 1, #586 of 616 🔗

Peter Hitchens had a link to it on his blog, but it seems it has been taken down from the BBC site. Still, he seems to have a link to a Youtube version and a transcript here:


6282 ▶▶▶▶ DocRC, replying to Mark, 1, #587 of 616 🔗

Here it is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86P7EEJeNKM
Absolutely brilliant and dealt beautifully with Justin Webb who kept trying to interrupt him!

6321 ▶▶ GLT, replying to Farinances, 2, #588 of 616 🔗

Lord Sumption has been outstanding in this whole fiasco.

6272 Markus, replying to Markus, 7, #589 of 616 🔗

Some views from Italy which you would like to hear…

“The deadly coronavirus could lose its potency and disappear before a vaccine is developed, Dr. Giuseppe Remuzzi, director of the Mario Negri Institute for Pharmacological Research in Milan, said.

The virus is nearing its end and “may disappear before the discovery of a vaccine to stop its spread, because its potency has begun to weaken day by day,” the prominent Italian doctor said in an interview with Italy’s La7 television channel.

However, most in the medical community have warned that the virus is now endemic within the population, meaning it will not go away on its own, and have begun to warn of a “second wave” as the world comes out of lockdown. Others have suggested that life may not completely return to normal until a vaccine is developed.

Remuzzi seems to disagree with this view.

The disease is less severe in newly infected individuals in comparison to those who were infected a month ago, he said, adding that the number of people who require intensive care in Italy is less than what it used to be.

Remuzzi said that he does not know why the deadly coronavirus is losing its potency.

However, he stated, people may have developed an immunity to it, which could lead to its eradication before the development of a vaccine.

“If things continue to evolve the way they are now, the outbreak may stop,” he added.

6280 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Markus, 2, #590 of 616 🔗

I mean I don’t know how much ‘The Science’ backs this up, but this has always made some sort of sense in my head. Like….. the more people it infects, the more ‘diluted’ it gets.

6285 ▶▶▶ Markus, replying to Farinances, #591 of 616 🔗

You would think so.

And I have really hard time believing in “The Science” at the moment. It feels corrupted…

6298 ▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to Farinances, 1, #592 of 616 🔗

I thought that too, and I actually read somewhere (frustratingly I can’t find the article so this looks like I’m just pulling this out of my arse but I’m not haha) that lockdowns actually provide the virus with the opportunity to mutate into something more virulent, because the milder strain isn’t getting spread around like it normally would in a non-lockdown society.

6288 ▶▶ DocRC, replying to Markus, 3, #593 of 616 🔗

Epidemics tend to die out as the virus becomes attenuated (less virulent). RNA viruses have only one strand of genetic material so it is much easier for transcription mistakes to happen -mutations in other words-than in DNA which has 2 strands.

6303 ▶▶ Old fred, replying to Markus, 2, #594 of 616 🔗

Looked at the graphs on Worldometer yesterday and al countries are following the typical epidemic curve – HK Flu is a good example from years ago which burnt itself out after 14 weeks or so. Two winter waves of HK Flu occurred but who knows this time round? To me, it is like we are re-discovering the wheel with covid19 – we have seen it all before but without lockdowns.
Viruses come and go. Remuzzi is talking sense.

6307 ▶▶ Oaks79, replying to Markus, #595 of 616 🔗

Could you post a link please

6287 Moomin, replying to Moomin, 7, #597 of 616 🔗

Rishi Sunak, “Nobody who is on the furlough scheme wants to be on this scheme,” the chancellor said. “People up and down this country believe in the dignity of their work, going to work, providing for their families, it’s not their fault their business has been asked to close or asked to stay at home.” Ummm…

6296 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Moomin, 3, #598 of 616 🔗


6304 ▶▶ Old fred, replying to Moomin, 2, #599 of 616 🔗

what’s he on?

6386 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Old fred, 2, #600 of 616 🔗

Thin ice, that’s what he’s on

6290 John Ballard, replying to John Ballard, 3, #601 of 616 🔗

Just watched this – was a link left by someone else, well worth some time to watch it, wow.


6295 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to John Ballard, 1, #602 of 616 🔗

Currently watching – quite incredible

6294 Latest News – Lockdown Sceptics, #604 of 616 🔗

[…] fare no better, and perhaps worse, than those with more lenient protocols (see the case of Belarus, for one of many examples of beneficial […]

6300 Mark T, 1, #605 of 616 🔗

I have not fact checked this but showing Georgia (getting lots of heat for opening “too soon”) is fine:


6301 thannon5, 2, #606 of 616 🔗

Incredibly frustrating that there is ample research and evidence from many countries, doctors and scientists, that the lockdown is no longer warranted. Here’s another good summary of data/facts: https://swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19/

But who needs facts!?. The fear mongering and regular messaging on the danger level (now with a scale) is really concerning. Feels like post 9-11 hysteria and we’re being set up for something. Perhaps a vaccine where we all need certificates?

6308 James007, 2, #607 of 616 🔗

I’m STILL trying to understand what happened to “flattening the curve” and “protecting the NHS” (I know I’m a bit slow).

How much evidence is in the public domain now about the 250-500k deaths claim? Is that ALL based on Imperial? Has the government hinted that we may be allowed to see it? (If it doesnt come out my guess is that the scope of any future enquiry will try to avoid discussing it).

Did the government set anything up to examine the costs of lockdown, risks, excess deaths, damage before deciding to go ahead? Have take taken a policy decision actually understanding the consequences? Or again, was is just looking at imperial, and saying well other countries are doing it so we should to?

The government’s default mode since March has been BLIND PANIC!
It’s heartbreaking to see a group of politicians so completely out of their depth, clumsily tearing the country apart and terrifying everyone.
Not all that long ago, these people were warning us that Corbyn’s spending plans would set us sinking into the sea.

6310 paulito, 8, #608 of 616 🔗

A slight glimmer of hope in Spain. The PP, Spanish conservatives, have said they will vote against the next extension of the State of Alarm which allows the government power to enforce a lockdown and requires parliamentary approval for its extension every 2 weeks. They also announced a Plan B called “Activemenos Espana” loosely translated as lets get Spain moving. How much of this is just party political posturing remains to be seen. The PP threatened with voting against the last extensión last week but abstained in the end. The current coalition government is a ragbag of left wing, nationalist and small regional parties with little internal cohesion. Recently, and echoing the lack of transparency surronding the members of SAGE, the government have been challenged to publish the names of those who designed their phased plan to come out of lockdown. The secrecy surronding this group is, claim the opposition, illegal. Interesting few weeks ahead.

6324 Edna, replying to Edna, 1, #609 of 616 🔗

This just beggars belief. I know The Times has reported it, but, surely, Mr. Hancock couldn’t really have said “Hugging new friends will not be possible until a vaccine or treatment for coronavirus has been found”


6380 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Edna, 2, #610 of 616 🔗

This is just getting funny now. I can’t believe people are saying stuff like this out loud in the real world.

6384 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Farinances, 2, #611 of 616 🔗

Maybe Ballless is forcing ministers to say shit like this in order to make the public angry and break lockdown. Reverse psychology or….. something.

6442 ▶▶▶▶ Edna, replying to Farinances, 1, #612 of 616 🔗

My husband has just suggested a similar thing and so has decided that he’s not ‘doing’ lockdown any more 🙂

6455 ▶▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Farinances, 2, #613 of 616 🔗

Hancock has certainly succeeded in making me very angry today. Throwing things at the wall kind of angry. First he spouts nonsense about not going abroad any time this summer – sorry, I am. I have a summer house abroad that needs maintenance, I need to sort out residency papers before the Brexit transition period ends, plus I need to file my tax return out there – and then he comes out with this rubbish about it not being possible to hug friends until a vaccine or treatment has been found. Actually it is possible, you just walk up to the them, put your arms around them, and hug them. This lockdown nonsense has gone on long enough now, it is well past being funny any more. This virus isn’t even dangerous to the vast majority of people and most will never even know they’ve had it – Professor Whitty admitted that last night.

6548 ▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Edna, 1, #614 of 616 🔗

Is it alright to hug ‘old friends’ then?

6395 Farinances, 1, #615 of 616 🔗
11853 Dave #KBF, #616 of 616 🔗

Do we have anyone on here from the remoter parts of the UK, say Scottish Highlands & Islands. rural Wales, rural north Pennies, Scottish Borders?

If so how have your communities handled the lockdown? Has your community carried on as normal?

I would be intrigued to know.


134 users made 613 comments today.

244Gracie Knoll43, 15, 7, 5, 26, 13, 0, 25, 4, 5, 20, 2, 29, 12, 8, 3, 8, 1, 14, 4
229RDawg8, 60, 31, 9, 1, 55, 21, 5, 3, 21, 15
211Farinances19, 15, 3, 3, 10, 3, 13, 1, 4, 3, 12, 4, 3, 9, 11, 5, 3, 1, 3, 1, 5, 1, 1, 3, 5, 10, 6, 2, 5, 4, 2, 5, 3, 4, 7, 7, 12, 2, 3, 2, 1, 2, 2
168Mark2, 4, 9, 12, 5, 3, 5, 6, 4, 5, 2, 1, 3, 13, 8, 16, 1, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 14, 5, 4, 14, 2, 14, 3, 3, 0, 0, 0, 1, 3, 1, 3, 1
146BecJT3, 2, 25, 15, 8, 2, 4, 3, 4, 6, 0, 0, 5, 5, 6, 8, 5, 10, 1, 27, 2, 4, -1, 1, 1
119ianp2, 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 16, 8, 2, 6, 8, 0, 4, 1, 0, 0, 8, 7, 2, 2, 3, 0, 0, 3, 1, 1, 5, 6, 3, 1, 0, 8, 4, 5, 0, 1
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98Mark H81, 15, 2
74Beacritical146, 3, 14, 10
65Jonathan Castro58, 6, 10, 7, 26, 2, 1
65Nigel Baldwin2, 15, 2, 3, 6, 3, 3, 3, 5, 1, 2, 1, 0, 2, 3, 1, 2, 1, 9, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1
64Oaks7966, 4, 0, 6, 18, 15, 9, 0
54Victoria2, 9, 2, 16, 18, 3, 0, 4
50Biker250, 25
50A130, 14, 6, 10, 20
50TJN14, 6, 26, 3, 1, 0, 0
49Cheezilla6, 1, 2, 15, 12, 9, 4
43coalencanth121, 12, 6, 3, 17, 4
43wendyk11, 1, 24, 2, 5, 0, 5, 0, 0, 4, 3, 2, 4
41Old Bill41, 0
41guy15315, 1, 3, 7, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0, 2, 0, 0, 3
38IanE5, 0, 6, 2, 7, 0, 8, 10
37Stephen McMurray34, 3
37Gillian5, 5, 27
37ianric35, 1, 1
35scepticalsue35, 0
35paulito0, 818, 0, 3, 6
33Tony Rattray18, 15
33Mimi325, 3, 2
33swedenborg27, 6, 1, 3, 3, 0, 4, 1, 6
32JohnB3, 3, 2, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 4, 0, 0, 1, 3, 4, 8, 2, 0, 1
31Lilly1, 3, 3, 1, 2, 14, 7
29John Ballard26, 3
29Paul B13, 5, 11
29Amy14, 1, 10, 0, 4
28mhcp2, 4, 22
27A Meshiea18, 9
27BrianJR12, 12, 1, 2
26Tim6, 20
26Sceptic7, 8, 5, 1, 2, 3, 0, 0, 0, 0
24Hammer Onats19, 5
24Morris_Day15, 9
24Edna22, 1, 1
24Pebbles3, 9, 1, 7, 4
23Clarence Beeks20, 3
23Bart Simpson7, 1, 3, 12, 0
19Dave #KBF019
16The Man at the Back6, 10, 0
16tonyspurs9, 1, 6
16Jane in France1, 0, 8, 7
15Maud Boggins14, 1
13Gossamer7, 6
13Peter Thompson9, 4
12common sense is dead12
12karate5610, 2
12Paul3, 9
12Mark Gobell11, 0, 1
12Back To Normal2, 0, 4, 2, 4
12Tyneside Tigress6, 1, 4, 1, 0, 0
11Yes to Freedom11
11Bob5, 6, 0
10DocRC1, 1, 4, 0, 1, 3
10Old fred5, 0, 1, 0, 2, 2
9Mr Jim McGregor9
9Simon Dutton9
9GLT3, 1, 3, 2
9CarrieAH4, 1, 1, 1, 2
8mark baker8
8chris c4, 3, 1, 0
8Markus1, 7, 0, 0
7John Lilburne7
7Mark T6, 1
7Winston Smith12, 0, 1, 1, 2, 0, 0
6Jane Sproston6
6Michel2, 4
6MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG2, 4
6Tarquin Von Starheim5, 0, 1
6Lms231, 3, 2, 0, 0
6Snake Oil Pussy01, 1, 4, 0
5The Spingler5
4Montag Smith4
4Ethelred the Unready3, 1
4Gtec3, 1
3rodmclaughlin1, 0, 2
3Carrie1, 2, 0, 0, 0
2Dan Owen2
2Letmeout1, 1
1T. Prince1
1AN other lockdown sceptic01
1Willow1, 0
0Adele Bull0
0Ian Rons0
0Latest News – Lockdown Sceptics0
0Carlo0, 0
0Cbird0, 0, 0
0OpenCorona0, 0, 0
-20Evoluon-12, -3, -5