Last updated2020-05-13T14:36:19



6327 Paul Seale, replying to Paul Seale, 58, #1 of 582 🔗

My give a shitometer now fully reads zero. Boris will always be the man who took away the right of an English man to have a pint, because he’s a cowering bed wetter. We lockdown and climate change sceptics, those in favour of free speach and empirical evidence need a new home. What’s say we take Antarctica when the ice melts? Oh, maybe not.

6332 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Paul Seale, 67, #2 of 582 🔗

Yes, like Blair on Iraq, Johnson should never be forgiven for this. No Conservative PM should ever have considered confining the British people in their homes and having policemen telling them when and where they can walk as a legitimate policy. It should have been anathema for him, and he should have been prepared to go down fighting against it, if necessary.

Far from all guns blazing, as far as can be told there was barely a whimper of brief resistance from him.

There is no excuse.

6347 ▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Mark, 13, #3 of 582 🔗

Or from Labour who let him do it and then campaigned for poverty.

6358 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to BecJT, 9, #4 of 582 🔗

Indeed, as with Iraq both main parties were ultimately complicit. But the buck stops with the PM, imo.

6419 ▶▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Mark, 7, #5 of 582 🔗

Totally agree. And quite rightly Blair took the blame for Iraq, and BoJo will with this. BTW I’m uneasy of lumping climate change and lockdown in the same category, or at least our argument. I’m all for rigorous evidence, and factual debate, and think most climate activists are misanthropic fascists who loathe humans, particularly poor ones, but still anxious we are broad church, lockdown is bonkers on its own merits (sorry that last bit directed at the thread generally, not you).

6435 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to BecJT, 6, #6 of 582 🔗

I agree about other issues. I’m climate disinterested really, myself, although if pushed I’d come down on the sceptic side.

6447 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Mark, 9, #7 of 582 🔗

I just don’t want to scare people off, we’re right about this, why make it more difficult by having to win two arguments not one? I’m worried about biodiversity, think there’s stuff we urgently need to do there. I just find climate activists don’t pass the ‘sniff test’ and get the uneasy feeling something’s afoot that isn’t entirely what they say it is. They are distinct from the entirely sensible people I’ve met working in conservation or whatever. But don’t want to conflate that with this, it’s a rod for our own backs in our current straightened circumstances I think, why alienate people who’d otherwise agree with you?

6477 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Snake Oil Pussy, replying to BecJT, 4, #8 of 582 🔗

I am a climate activist and, while the lockdown may reduce emissions in the short term, there is much about it that worries me. It stops any form of political activity to hold governments to account. Trump and Bolsanaro have both taken advantage of it to weaken environmental protection legislation while there’s no functioning opposition. Greta and her school strikes have been forgotten about now that no child can go to school. It is killing public transport, so when life does get back to “normal” more people will travel by car, increasing congestion, fuel consumption and emissions. Money that was earmarked for Northern Powerhouse Rail, reversing Beeching cuts will be needed for salvaging something of existing networks. So please let some of us come on board.

6483 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Harry, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, 1, #9 of 582 🔗

Even worse, this deluded lockdown has held up production of the nuclear and renewable nergy facilities which we desperately need so we can move away from oil. And it is going to give a massive boost to car ownership and cause public transport to become a second-class citizen and hence kept at woefully inadequate levels and not receiving any funding in the near future to expand and improve service. The lockdown, overall, is harming the environment much more than any shrot term reduction in pollution can ever help.

6752 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to Harry, 3, #10 of 582 🔗

Renewable energy is not the answer. There were days in December that I noted where wind power supplied less than 8% of the total electricity generation in the UK. Solar provided nothing. Both require huge amounts of energy, mining, and toxic rare materials to manufacture, and both are unreliable. There are major issues in the decommissioning in both.
Plus, they are trying to generate energy from diffuse, weak energy forms, i.e. wind and solar. Both take huge amounts of land that should be used for food production or left for wildlife, or housing.
Nuclear is a concentrated energy form but there are obvious issues with waste storage for centuries.
Oil and natural gas are also more energy concentrated and reliable sources.

There isn’t a climate emergency that we need to worry about. There is environmental damage that we need to worry about and the renewable energy scam is part of that.

Why renewables can’t save the planet | Michael Shellenberger | TEDxDanubia

Michael Shellenberg is an environmentalist who realised that renewables cause more problems than they solve.

Read up on Professor Michael Kelly as well:
Prof. Michael Kelly: Energy Policy Needs ‘Herds Of Unicorns’
Date: 11/11/19Press Release, Global Warming Policy Foundation
Utopian thinking is putting the economy at risk says Cambridge professor

6554 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, 3, #11 of 582 🔗

Welcome! On a micro scale my machiavellian local authority have backed off our greenbelt (been fighting them for 18 months, insane development, very environmentally damaging, and more to the point economically crackpot) but whilst in lockdown have announced plans to dump it somewhere else – also pristine countryside, just a different planning designation – all local democracy is suspended, our MP is awol with all this, parish councils hiding at home. No residents paying attention, and they’ll steam roller it through, there is so much money involved, barrister told us they are the most corrupt authority in the country, it’s been an education, they do all their Strategic Environmental Assessments, it’s all bobbins, it’s money, and he who has the most expensive lawyer wins. I am not anti the environmental argument, nor do I lack sympathy or worry about it, I am a bit leery of some of the more fringe activists, but I don’t see why we need to conflate it with lockdown, if you’re down with this argument, you are on our team as far as I’m concerned.

6740 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, -1, #12 of 582 🔗

What has Trump done exactly in the past two months to weaken environmental protection?
There is a functioning opposition in the Democrat-majority House, if they were the slightest bit interested in being a real opposition instead of trying to impeach him on made-up charges, or in getting the U.S. $trillions into debt with policies that have nothing to do with the current WuFlu infection and everything to do with encouraging illegal immigration and taking permanent power in the US.

6749 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ grammarschoolman, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, #13 of 582 🔗

‘Trump and Bolsanaro have both taken advantage of it to weaken environmental protection legislation while there’s no functioning opposition.’

Nice to see that some good has come of this, at least.

6736 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to BecJT, 3, #14 of 582 🔗

The climate activists do not pass the sniff test. The founders have said that they want to end capitalism, and this is the way they mean to do it.

Policy Exchange: Extremism Rebellion
Jul 16, 2019

Extinction Rebellion has mainstreamed the politics of a radical fringe

“The people behind Extinction Rebellion advocate a political agenda with ambitions that reach far beyond environmentalism. It is a campaign that seeks to use mass civil disobedience over climate change, to impose full system change to the democratic order. Yet, the underlying extremism of the campaign has been largely obscured from public view by what many see as the fundamental legitimacy of their stated cause.”

You can download the pdf document from this site, which goes into detail about them.

Stuart Badsen, XR founder:
Extinction Rebellion isn’t about the Climate

While they’re all freaking out about negligible man-made global warming, they ignore the real and present damage to the environment from the manufacture of so-called green energy solar panels and wind turbines; poaching and the endangerment of wildlife, not least of which is to supply the Chinese and Far East markets for “medicines”; the list is endless.

6520 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Mark, 3, #15 of 582 🔗

Yeah I concur. Honestly, out of all the ‘issues’ I have opinions on – which is most of them lol – climate change is the one I’m most ambivalent about. One minute I’m totally on board and thinking the world is going up in flames, the next I’m thinking it’s all a big nothingburger. Someone needs to really convince me to a side – it just hasn’t happened yet.

6465 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to BecJT, 7, #16 of 582 🔗

One difference is that right now there aren’t many epidemiologists coming out to support Ferguson, except one or two in the pages of the Guardian not in actual academic publications.

If this goes on for as long the climate saga (heaven forbid) a whole new generation of scientists will no doubt spring up wherever the money hose is pointed and any experts currently in the field without very good tenure arrangements will become ex-experts. Let’s hope it doesn’t go on that long.

There are plenty of comparisons with climate science here but some are misleading.

Epidemics are actually very predictable, not in every detail of the timing but they reach a stable equilibrium and follow the models in the end, unlike the climate. The death forecasts of Ferguson are not model outputs anyway: they’re just assumptions that go straight into the model and come back out of it.

The climate is fundamentally much harder to model because it’s hugely more complicated, in many areas chaotic, and the signals people are looking for and predicting are tiny compared to the natural variability. There is some warming of course, and some of it is because of CO2. The debate is all about how much and how much it matters. Long ago it reached the point where nothing reality could do in the foreseeable future would settle the matter.

With Covid there clearly are excess deaths. There is some argument about how many but it’s really a sideshow. The important question is just how close different places are to their herd immunity level. Once lockdowns are lifted and second waves fail to materialise it should all be clearer.

6658 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to guy153, 6, #17 of 582 🔗

Excess deaths at the moment, yes. And of course that is not good. But Professor Giesecke points out that over the course of a year we will see that even out. Basically he said many people are dying a few weeks or months earlier than they would otherwise have done. So after a year or so, the mortalities will be exactly the same as they would have been anyway. And that is regardless of whether you lockdown or not. What a nightmare this all is.

6716 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to CarrieAH, 3, #18 of 582 🔗

What Giesecke said there is clearly correct as far as it goes, but in this country we have incurred a lot of excess deaths as a result of the lockdown itself. These deaths will show up as an increase in the overall mortality for the year.

6382 ▶▶▶ South Coast Worker, replying to Mark, 4, #19 of 582 🔗

I think he did go down fighting this, and they pushed him aside and carried their pre-planned agenda through. BJ is libertarian, like Trump it was clear they didn’t want these lockdowns. You can almost see the hands up their backsides operating them at this point.

6394 ▶▶▶▶ Victoria, replying to South Coast Worker, 14, #20 of 582 🔗

Not convinced. He had the support of the so-called Hawks but did not use it. He could have thrown Ferguson on the bus and said that the numbers were wrong (read all evidence of his lame modelling software and previous major mes ups) and lifted the lockdown, getting children back to school and businesses going.

6420 ▶▶▶▶▶ South Coast Worker, replying to Victoria, 10, #21 of 582 🔗

The fact Ferguson was even in the position he was in should tell all you need to know about who’s deciding lockdown policy. They were going to lockdown no matter what. Everything since then has been about justifying it through fear.

6583 ▶▶▶▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to Victoria, 8, #22 of 582 🔗

Schools need to be fully operational before any semblance of normality can resume. Not everyone has family who can look after children whilst they go out to work.

I have seen one education union has been campaigning for the lockdown to remain in place until it is safe to reopen schools. Sounds like this union would like to keep schools closed for the foreseeable future, blow the economy of Lesser Britain.

6592 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Dave #KBF, 17, #23 of 582 🔗

Funny how all these committed and caring teachers, these paeons of educational virtue, these passionate advicates of learning….. don’t want kids back at school.

6396 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to South Coast Worker, 18, #24 of 582 🔗

He’s the British PM. If he opposed this lockdown, where were the ringing speeches calling for an alternative policy? Where was the division of the house on a confidence motion laying his job on the line over the issue?

It’s simply impossible to have implemented any lockdown policy without the PM’s nod. He clearly gave that approval without having to be pushed hard, because the alternative would have required an open test of support in the House, which never occurred. At the least there would have to have been fraught confrontations and evidence provided that he would lose a vote on the issue. None of that happened, because he never gave the slightest indication of wanting to call such a vote.

Clearly, if he really was opposed to it (evidence?), he allowed himself to be meekly persuaded. Which is enough, more than enough, to condemn him.

6416 ▶▶▶▶▶ South Coast Worker, replying to Mark, 1, #25 of 582 🔗

Your logic makes sense only if the PM is more than a figurehead position. Do you think the course of events would be any different whatsoever if it were a different PM or different party. His actions haven’t exactly been consistent with the principles of his party or his personal ideals.

6432 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to South Coast Worker, 4, #26 of 582 🔗

Doesn’t help Johnson I don’t think. If he’s just a puppet then he could still have gone down fighting publicly. What would he have to lose but an empty mercenary position? If he’s only there for the salary and the perks, s*d him anyway.

6443 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ JASA, replying to Mark, 7, #27 of 582 🔗

I’m not sure that it is just coincidental that the PM got the virus and badly too. Although he made the decision to lock down before getting the bad symptoms, it has clearly changed his perspective and also took him out of action for a while. There is definitely something strange going here, but I am still very disappointed and angry at what he has done.

6437 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ IanE, replying to South Coast Worker, #28 of 582 🔗

An interesting theory – but it seems rather like the ‘it’s turtles all the way down’ theory. Who then is in charge – and is (s)he really in charge or just standing in for the real leader?

6486 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Snake Oil Pussy, replying to South Coast Worker, 16, #29 of 582 🔗

We have had Prime Ministers who were capable of changing the course of events. I doubt whether Margaret Thatcher would have looked across the world at a totalitarian communist state suppressing the virus and said “we must do the same”. Not even if the rest of Europe did the same.

6506 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, 4, #30 of 582 🔗

*Especially* if all of Europe did the same….

6518 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, 7, #31 of 582 🔗

I’m really, really, really, not a fan of Maggie (or Tony BLiar her bastard son in disguise) but even I have to concede you are correct.

6661 ▶▶▶▶▶ Edna, replying to Mark, 5, #32 of 582 🔗

I definitely believe that Mrs. Thatcher, as a trained scientist, would not have been fobbed off with dodgy modelling predictions and would have asked for a lot more hard evidence before committing to a policy of national house arrest. But I can’t think of any other recent prime minister who would have held out against the mob.

6754 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to Edna, 2, #33 of 582 🔗

Most of the PMs since Thatcher would have joined in with the mob, if not leading them.

6762 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ grammarschoolman, replying to Edna, 1, #34 of 582 🔗

That’s the key point: she’s the only scientist Prime Minister we’ve ever had – and boy does that show.

6470 ▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to South Coast Worker, 5, #35 of 582 🔗

I agree it all sounded like coded messages saying forget about all this but I don’t want Matron to notice. But he’s the Prime Minister FFS, he should stand up and say it straight.

6662 ▶▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to South Coast Worker, 3, #36 of 582 🔗

You may be right. Certainly from being optimistic and full of energy, he suddenly began to look like a stressed, beaten man. Then inevitably he became ill – stress always affects the immune system – and that was it. What we have at the helm now is not the Boris Johnson people voted for. On the other hand, maybe there is yet hope. These new rules of lockdown seem to be deliberately blurry. I usually spend many months of the year in Greece. There, everything is done through legislation now, and people have had to send a text for permission to leave the house. There were six numbers you could send, each one relating to what you needed to do whilst out. I’ve spent the last 6 weeks listening to formerly intelligent friends asking each other which “number” they should send if they want to walk their dog, or go to the vet! At least we never had that sort of nonsense.

6764 ▶▶▶▶▶ grammarschoolman, replying to CarrieAH, 3, #37 of 582 🔗

‘What we have at the helm now is not the Boris Johnson people voted for. ‘

Yes. Somehow he’s been nobbled. This is the problem.

6924 ▶▶▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to CarrieAH, #38 of 582 🔗

The only things standing between Boris and retiring to enjoy his young new family are his colossal ego and his hunger for posterity.

7001 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to AidanR, #39 of 582 🔗

A shame then that when the test came he chose the path of meek surrender rather than the one of glorious defiance.

I doubt he’ll get another chance.

7054 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to Mark, #40 of 582 🔗

I rather suspect he still hopes to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, and that he always will.

6356 ▶▶ DocRC, replying to Paul Seale, 4, #41 of 582 🔗


6573 ▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to Paul Seale, 4, #42 of 582 🔗

So BoJo is not going to be remembered as the Churchill of the 21st Century.

Heads held high, keep the faith all, forget politics, we are fighting for our freedoms now. Whatever colour we followed in the past they have all mingled together into a sh*tty brown colour.

6613 ▶▶▶ Nerina Villa, replying to Dave #KBF, 1, #43 of 582 🔗

Absolutely, they’re all acting the same. Apparently dissent is silent.

6645 ▶▶ Laura, replying to Paul Seale, -4, #44 of 582 🔗

Just saying I think it’s a huge mistake to lump in lockdown skeptic with climate change skeptic. Climate change actually contributed hugely to the pandemic starting and spreading. And these statements are what make lockdown skeptics seem fringe-y.

6329 Mark, replying to Mark, 3, #45 of 582 🔗

“Prince Charles, future king. He predicted we had eight years to save the plant 11 years ago”

LOL! Is this some kind of meme joke about Prince Charles talking to plants, or is it a fortuitous typo? Either way, I enjoyed it…..

6344 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Mark, 1, #46 of 582 🔗

Well, maybe – but 30 years ago he said we had ten to save the planet. It is a great insult to our Royal Family that we are still here!

6385 ▶▶ South Coast Worker, replying to Mark, 5, #47 of 582 🔗

They keep banging on about about the point of no return. Infuriating when they move the goalposts, latest being 2030. I want to reach the point of no return because then it’s pointless worrying about it, and we can crack on with some long haul flights,

6398 ▶▶ Ethelred the Unready, replying to Mark, 4, #48 of 582 🔗

To be fair, the great Bowie suggested we had just “Five Years” in 1972… 😉

6333 BTLnewbie, replying to BTLnewbie, #49 of 582 🔗

My wife is a church bell-ringer, and has just received advice on Covid-19, which has been circulated to the 40,000 ringers in the UK from their central organisation.

The advice (from two doctors) seems generally sensible and explains why bell-ringing can’t resume yet (eg social distancing is not feasible in a closely confined bell-tower), but the following paragraph caught her eye:

“Sadly, the mortality rates are significant (the worldwide case fatality rate was 7% on May 6th) with most being in men over 55-59 and in women over 65-69 years old.”

These stats run counter to everything I have read about mortality rates and at-risk age groups; if they are wrong or capable of misinterpretation, I need help to provide her with a factual rebuttal to send to her local bell-ringers’ group. Can anyone help?

The age group data seems plainly wrong (unless they mean “men over 55 and women over 65”, in which case the wording is disgracefully misleading, akin to ‘all Covid deaths occur in the over 20-25 year old age group’).

We have both tried to search for info on CFR’s, or even a current definition of CFR, without any success.

Any help or links appreciated.

6334 ▶▶ Bob, replying to BTLnewbie, 3, #50 of 582 🔗

I think they have used the misleading wording to mean people over that age.

6337 ▶▶ iainclark, replying to BTLnewbie, 6, #51 of 582 🔗

Whether intentional or not that’s nonsense.

6345 ▶▶ Mark, replying to BTLnewbie, 3, #52 of 582 🔗

Surely the easiest way to get a quick and dirty idea of overall case fatality worldwide would be to check the latest WHO update and divide the number of deaths by the number of cases?

As of yesterday’s update they have (worldwide):

4,006,257 cases and 278 892 deaths

Giving by my calculator a current preliminary cfr of 0.07, which seems pretty plausible, albeit a few of those cases probably will die and increase the CFR a bit. By now most of the epidemics have been in decline for a while though.


So their 7% looks about right, but case fatality is of little use when (as with covid19), most infected individuals are not identified as cases because they are asymptomatic or very mild and not reported. So it’s the infection fatality rate that really matters – how many of those who get the disease actually die of it. And that’s tricky to find because it’s hard to know how many people actually have caught a disease as generally mild as this one.

There’s no authoritative figure you could point to. Someone could always cherry-pick a study of their own showing a worse or better ifr estimate to suit their own case, at the moment. Good discussion of ifr and cfr here:


There’s a breakdown of case fatality by age here, showing the sharp increase with increasing age that absolutely does not peak in the age groups mentioned, but it might just be that the population distribution they are referring to has more people in those age groups than older and so more deaths:


6348 ▶▶▶ Peter Thompson, replying to Mark, 4, #53 of 582 🔗

geez , all you need to do is go to the Oxford university site . Don’t use WHO !


IFR Taking account of historical experience, trends in the data, increased number of infections in the population at largest, and potential impact of misclassification of deaths gives a presumed estimate for the COVID-19 IFR somewhere between 0.1% and 0.41%.*

6357 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Peter Thompson, 1, #54 of 582 🔗

I suggested WHO because presumably they want maximum credibility for putting a case forward to a church organisation. When it comes to a global current cfr estimate I can’t imagine it makes all that much difference where you go, does it?

6349 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to BTLnewbie, 7, #55 of 582 🔗

Oxford study of 17.4m people – biggest study in the world – https://opensafely.org/press-releases/2020/05/covid-risk-factors/

See page 11 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.06.20092999v1

If you are under 60 and healthy your risk is ZERO.

6387 ▶▶▶ South Coast Worker, replying to BecJT, 20, #56 of 582 🔗

Statistically it is literally zero. I tried to explain this to a fanatic in my family but they said it wasn’t true as the government wouldn’t be doing this if it was.

6450 ▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to South Coast Worker, 18, #57 of 582 🔗

Oh dear, it’s the whole models vs data thing. Oxford Uni and a cohort of 17.4m is pretty convincing, it’s baffling isn’t it? People seem obsessed with anecdotes, which isn’t surprising as we have no ‘news’ anymore, just rolling anecdotes. I had that today, people talking about kids going back to school. I said, there are 15m under 15s, of which TWO have died, both of underlying conditions. 10 children die every day of other diseases, accidents, cancer etc. And all I get is ‘yeah but it might be dangerous, I’m not taking any chances’.

6472 ▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to BecJT, 6, #58 of 582 🔗

Every time I walk past a TV with ‘news’ on it I scream GROW SOME BALLS at it

6614 ▶▶▶▶ Nerina Villa, replying to South Coast Worker, 5, #59 of 582 🔗

Yes I’ve found a lot of people won’t believe this otherwise we’ve gone mad. Actually the world has gone mad.

6778 ▶▶▶▶ grammarschoolman, replying to South Coast Worker, 2, #60 of 582 🔗

Now there’s a circular argument if ever I saw one.

6353 ▶▶ Disgruntled, replying to BTLnewbie, 3, #61 of 582 🔗

The weekly ONS update has the breakdown of all Covid deaths by age group.


40% of all UK deaths are in the 85+ age group. Another 35% for 75-84 year olds. Less than 1% for under 45s. The case fatality is would be under 1% for all age groups other over 75 I would think.

6487 ▶▶ steve, replying to BTLnewbie, 2, #62 of 582 🔗

Try this
“Today’s“ Media death rate includes People who died back on March 17th


6493 ▶▶ Jonathan Castro, replying to BTLnewbie, 1, #63 of 582 🔗

She probably saw a figure like 0.05% and thought it meant 5% ?

6566 ▶▶▶ Adele Bull, replying to Jonathan Castro, -1, #64 of 582 🔗

Yes I thought that, because 0.07 is not 7%

6502 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to BTLnewbie, 1, #65 of 582 🔗

How old are your bell-ringers?
” Over 81% of Covid-19 deaths occur in cohorts >= 70 years old. The comparative figures in respect of males and females are respectively 79.1% and 84.8%.”

6698 ▶▶ BTLnewbie, replying to BTLnewbie, 1, #66 of 582 🔗

Thanks to you all for the helpful responses to this.
I’m sure we can now reassure local ringers (who tend to be over-50 but fit enough to climb a bell-tower and pull bell-ropes for 30 minutes – not an at-risk group, I would say!).

I particularly like this table from the CEBM site:
Mortality by Age per 100,000 population
• >85s: 155/100,000
• 75-84: 43 per 100,000
• 65-74: 2.3 per 100,000
• 45-64: 0.15 per 100,000
• 15-44: 0.02 per 100,000

6336 iainclark, replying to iainclark, 4, #67 of 582 🔗

I’d don’t think I’d have the nerve currently to wear an overt anti lockdown t shirt so how about one with something cryptic only recognisable by other sceptics?

Other than that thanks, a little sanity is well received.

6341 ▶▶ Pebbles, replying to iainclark, 10, #68 of 582 🔗

How about an elephant… as in: the elephant in the room. Let’s talk about the elephant in the room = a broken economy, mental health issues due to lockdown etc etc Print one out and hang it in your window or a sticker in your car or just be creative with this…

6343 ▶▶▶ Jane in France, replying to Pebbles, 1, #69 of 582 🔗

How about a rhinoceros, as in the play by Ionesco, in which humans beings turn one by one into horned monsters, as a metaphor for facsism?

6363 ▶▶▶▶ Pebbles, replying to Jane in France, 2, #70 of 582 🔗

Haha brilliant. Why don’t we email Toby with some suggestions and make a pick, and we can start secretly identifying ourselves to one another in public etc.

6468 ▶▶▶ paulito, replying to Pebbles, 1, #71 of 582 🔗

Is asheep too obvious?

6531 ▶▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to Pebbles, 4, #72 of 582 🔗

Elephant is good, they have long memories, when sheeples have returned to new normal, we elephants will remember.

6346 ▶▶ Peter Thompson, replying to iainclark, 5, #73 of 582 🔗

I have thought about that . What about a tee shirt with the famous quote of theologian Martin Luther ” Here I stand, I can do no other ” . We know that the truth and evidence is on our side . Grey with black test , medium please !

6383 ▶▶ Gracie Knoll, replying to iainclark, 3, #74 of 582 🔗

I thought about a Spitfire design. Instead of the Battle of Britain we face a battle FOR Britain. (The only problem is you might bump into an aviation enthusiast wearing something similar who turns out to be a rabid lockdown zealot.)

6390 ▶▶ South Coast Worker, replying to iainclark, 8, #75 of 582 🔗

We should start small and attack this nonsense 2m rule somehow. Fed up of awkward encounters out and about due to it.

6413 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to South Coast Worker, 16, #76 of 582 🔗

Me too. While I was out walking today I had to overtake a family of four. I decided not to walk in the road – the mother and father and smaller child were fine but when I caught up with the older child who was a bit further ahead (looked about six), she flinched and got as far away from me as possible. All very sad and it brought it home to me how awful this must be for children who can’t rationalise.

6425 ▶▶▶▶ South Coast Worker, replying to kh1485, 15, #77 of 582 🔗

I’ve become quite strident toward pavement etiquette, I assume that the person coming the other way is a fellow sceptic. Occasionally I do get a knowing nod as we pass each other with just mere inches between us! I’ve also had outright abuse.

6439 ▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to South Coast Worker, 10, #78 of 582 🔗

This is the other thing that really depresses me, the apparent breakdown of basic civility …

6480 ▶▶▶▶▶ Paul, replying to South Coast Worker, 25, #79 of 582 🔗

When I see someone approaching on the pavement I start thinking are they one of us or one of them ? !,is this a bit weird ?.The other day as I was going into a shop I met an older lady coming out,she very kindly stopped and reached back to hold the door for me even though it meant she was only inches away,this small but normal human act raised my spirits enormously,I thanked her and she gave me a lovely smile,god bless her.

6536 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Paul, 10, #80 of 582 🔗

A very frail old friend of mine went shopping last week – she’s not one to be told what she can and can’t do. A woman asked if she could help carry her shopping to the car. There’s a glimmer of hope …..

6530 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to South Coast Worker, 11, #81 of 582 🔗

I’ve recently stopped jumping into the road when passing someone. I now let the others do that if they want – most do. I’m thinking of starting to point out that you can’t catch anything from passing someone outside on a pavement.
Last week I had a lovely chat with a wonderful 86 year-old who trundles her dog and zimmer frame up and down the hill a few times every day. She’s a star!

6588 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to Cheezilla, 14, #82 of 582 🔗

This happens all the time,

Passed in the opposite direction today, by an apparently fit looking couple )well fitter than me) , I stood my ground, they swerved into the road traffic.

I am waiting for someone to be clobbered by a road vehicle & the death be reported by the BBC as a CV19 death.

Its what they would have wanted…


6824 ▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to South Coast Worker, 1, #83 of 582 🔗

Abuse ’em back. They can’t give you a slap, for obvious reasons. 🙂

6864 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to JohnB, 1, #84 of 582 🔗

Good point.

6584 ▶▶▶ Joey, replying to South Coast Worker, -3, #85 of 582 🔗

2 metre “rule” is actually farly sensible, as long as you don’t try to stick to it at every second and don’t panic when someone sle momentarily violates it. An anti-lockdown t-shrit might actually encourage zealots to keep more distance from us.

6715 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Joey, 6, #86 of 582 🔗

No, it really isn’t remotely sensible, as evidenced by the admitted fact that there is no scientific basis for it.

The only possible justification for it is the one the government effectively applied: “better safe than sorry”. That obviously assumes you take their inherently irrational ideas about the supposed dangerousness of this virus seriously.

But the simple fact is that this rule has huge costs. If enforced (and the government and unions between them seem determined to impose it (because they are insane, stupid or evil, evidently), it means dramatically reduced productivity and therefore ultimately lost jobs.

And outdoors there should be no distancing rule whatsoever. It just makes no sense. No touching combined with leaving people to use common sense is the only sensible “rule” for outdoors, and in reality common sense alone is far better.

6873 ▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Mark, 2, #87 of 582 🔗

Agreed. Just returned from my soviet-style queuing session at the supermarket. Went with a friend and we were stood (OMG) less than 2 metres apart chatting, before the security goon tried to separate us. I explained that we were friends and I was going to continue to stand next to him. I got the surly response: “well, you can’t go in together”. My friend is also a lockdown sceptic so we continued discussing how bonkers this all is. And you know what, I *think* there is a sea-change of sorts. I thought the woman in front of us looked like a lockdownista but I detected a slight smile of approval of what we were saying, especially when I mocked denounced my friend for getting too close with his trolley It’s almost as though they want permission to be freed from their chains of compliance. I know others have said that here before but it’s nice to see it for myself. That said, I got a stern look from the be-goggled, be-gloved funcionary handing out the trolleys! Miss was not happy!

6903 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to kh1485, #88 of 582 🔗

The green shoots of recovery coming into view…?

6920 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Mark, #89 of 582 🔗

Let’s hope so. Though, like I say, I did get a dirty look from the supermarket operative …

6942 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to kh1485, 2, #90 of 582 🔗

Do you remember how after 9/11 the trolley-dollies on airplanes transformed from smiling angels into Sky-Nazi’s overnight? All the Karens working in B&Q are like that now. As if they think they’re the thin blue line between you and certain death.

7039 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to AidanR, #91 of 582 🔗

Oh yes. They’ve got their bit of power now and aren’t they just loving it.

6429 ▶▶ BobT, replying to iainclark, 7, #92 of 582 🔗

Lemmings jumping of the cliff edge

6431 ▶▶ Gtec, replying to iainclark, 2, #93 of 582 🔗

What about a broken key or an open barred door to symbolise a broken lockdown? And instead of just a t-shirt, how about a lapel badge, or even just a badge?

6436 ▶▶▶ Steve, replying to Gtec, 6, #94 of 582 🔗

A padlock in a circle with a diagonal line through it, like the Ghostbusters Logo or an anti-smoking sign.

6438 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Gtec, 1, #95 of 582 🔗

T-shirt and badge. And all the rest.

Personally I’d be up for one of these with the antilockdownist symbol (whatever it turns out to be) on the pommel:


6541 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Mark, #96 of 582 🔗

OH yeyeh. Now that is right up my street.

6453 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to iainclark, 5, #97 of 582 🔗

I’m kidding, but ‘How to Lose Friends and Alienate People’ is apposite as a slogan.

6466 ▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to iainclark, 1, #98 of 582 🔗

I’ve been wearing my ‘Creeping Death’ Metallica t-shirt. Thought that was quite funny, if in poor taste. Not that anybody has taken notice or said anything.

6471 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to iainclark, 4, #99 of 582 🔗

Can we have a sort of secret salute or signal as well?

6535 ▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Bart Simpson, 2, #100 of 582 🔗

Be seeing you.

6781 ▶▶▶ grammarschoolman, replying to Bart Simpson, 5, #101 of 582 🔗

A handshake of any kind would be apposite.

6504 ▶▶ Rick, replying to iainclark, #102 of 582 🔗

Funny isn’t it, how capitalism has basically lead us to “hold an opinion, better buy into it by purchasing something”. Still capitalism just about works, unlike lockdownism. Will see if overt anti-lockdown t-shirts are available anywhere, so long as the overtness is done politely, no point being rude about it when we shold be aiming to convince others not merely offend them.

6516 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to iainclark, 2, #103 of 582 🔗

Yesterday I saw a great pic of a herd of sheep all wearing blue surgical masks. Wish I could find it now, it would be perfect. Maybe it was on here?

6545 ▶▶▶ DickieA, replying to Cheezilla, 3, #104 of 582 🔗

A discreet logo would work. How about “Fold” – the “L” and “D” referring to “Lockdown”?

6603 ▶▶▶▶ Paula Clark, replying to DickieA, 5, #105 of 582 🔗

I have t shirt “NORMAL NOT NEW NORMAL”

6552 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Cheezilla, 9, #106 of 582 🔗

comment image

and there’s this one
comment image

6543 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to iainclark, 5, #107 of 582 🔗

This with a mask: comment image

(but probably copyright, I guess)

6576 ▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to iainclark, 2, #108 of 582 🔗

I posted this yesterday. How about ‘I do not suffer from CDS’. Meaning Corona or Covid Derangement Syndrome (someone else coined this) and if anyone threatening asked you could explain it as ‘Cognitive Dissonance Syndrome’ in an ironical way and leave them to work it out.

6904 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 1, #109 of 582 🔗

Just CDS with a line through it (perhaps in a red circle prohibition sign-style) would be enough.

Deniable, but enough to give a signal to those in the know.

6589 ▶▶ Peter Thompson, replying to iainclark, #110 of 582 🔗

The leader of the German Widerstand party ( resistance ) wears an aluminium sphere on his lapel with a ribbon as a sign to others . Here he is in at a demo in Stuttgart . He is an ENT specialist.

6597 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Peter Thompson, 5, #111 of 582 🔗

I honestly love the fact that the Germans – given their track record – are leading the charge for freedom

Lol look what happened to France. Liberte, Egalite…….. Papers please!

6601 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Peter Thompson, #112 of 582 🔗

Is that actually just a bit of crushed up tinfoil?

6609 ▶▶ Willow, replying to iainclark, 15, #113 of 582 🔗

After Matt Hancock’s latest lunatic pronouncement I have ordered this comment image

6869 ▶▶▶ Alice, replying to Willow, #114 of 582 🔗

I have a similar hoodie, nobody’s actually commented on it yet.

6734 ▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to iainclark, 1, #115 of 582 🔗

My suggestion:

comment image

6743 ▶▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to Edgar Friendly, 2, #116 of 582 🔗

Or maybe even this:

comment image

6753 ▶▶▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to Edgar Friendly, 5, #117 of 582 🔗

Just riffing now:

comment image

6919 ▶▶▶▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to Edgar Friendly, 4, #118 of 582 🔗

How about this:

comment image

6946 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to Edgar Friendly, #119 of 582 🔗


6886 ▶▶▶ Chris John, replying to Edgar Friendly, 1, #120 of 582 🔗

With: Professor Ferguson ate my Future!

6780 ▶▶ grammarschoolman, replying to iainclark, 1, #121 of 582 🔗

Some lions led by a donkey?

6866 ▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to grammarschoolman, #122 of 582 🔗

the lions in masks

6831 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to iainclark, 2, #123 of 582 🔗

Last time, I promise. Then I’ll shut up.

Fluorescent yellow vests, although first thought of by the French, are surely the way to go.

Most people have one or two already; they’re non-confrontational; highly visible; and once sufficient numbers are reached, would be a large scale statement.

6862 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to iainclark, 1, #124 of 582 🔗

How about:

‘Freedom Is In Peril, Defend It With All Your Might’

Edvard Munchs ‘The Scream’ (sums up I how feel)

6340 Biker, replying to Biker, 39, #125 of 582 🔗

I just don’t think the lockdown zealots have quite figured into their extended holiday that society is collapsing. It’s like they can’t see it. They seem to think it’s like they’ve paused live tv and when they press play again we will continue where we left off. Under the so called removal of lockdown the requirements will make it impossible to make a living from any kind of business. I don’t think they realise that. If this doesn’t end soon they will kill us elevating the need for the virus to do it. Nothing less than a return to what we considered normal will do, anything else is a global fascist super government that wants to confine you to house arrest, forced work programmes and hunger. If business can’t provide what we need the state will need to and we all know how that will turn out. Look to any communist country to see how poor you will be. I’m sure then the lockdown zealots might just see what they’re done then. Loads of them will still claim it was worth it though because they all seem to be utterly hypnotised and incapable of thinking straight.

6350 ▶▶ Old fred, replying to Biker, 3, #126 of 582 🔗

First inklings are appearing – Sunak on news tonight accepting that jobs will be lost.
Have I missed the latest govt borrowing figures? They will be interesting.

6474 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Old fred, 15, #127 of 582 🔗

I love how they keep saying “We can’t save every job” like only 1000 people will be out of work.

No, Rishi. You can’t save the MAJORITY of jobs. SAY. THOSE. WORDS. OUT. LOUD.

6351 ▶▶ Bob, replying to Biker, 3, #128 of 582 🔗

Hi Biker,

Last week you mentioned the possibility of food shortages in supermarkets – how’s this situation developing?

6371 ▶▶▶ Biker, replying to Bob, 9, #129 of 582 🔗

in my store the totes that i am used to seeing stuffed full of all the normal amount of products are down by about a third. We have no brown sugar, we’ve not had any tea or coffee delivered this week, same goes for cleaning products, ready meals. It’s not like we’ve run out but there’s less stuff being delivered. We’ve even been told that we’re only gonna get one brand of toilet paper. If one of the worlds largest retailers are rationing too it’s stores it can only be a matter of time before you start to notice it yourself. This booklet with all the products on it they were telling us were gonna be scarce is still at the desk in the store and is still what the company are preparing for.

6454 ▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Biker, 1, #130 of 582 🔗

Can really see it on the fresh stuff, lettuce and salad in particular, and lots of gaps for things like corn flour (tried two stores) and did you say tea?

6456 ▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Biker, 2, #131 of 582 🔗

PS, this monopoly thing, how are suppliers faring? Are they being hammered on prices? I’m rural, we’re hearing dairy herds being culled due to lack of demand for milk due to offices, cafes, restaurants closed?

6544 ▶▶▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to Biker, 1, #132 of 582 🔗

Been trying to get some dried bakers yeast since middle of March, nothing. Possibly due to the brewing industry reducing production? Flour is just a rare. Powdered egg & bully beef anyone?

6578 ▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Dave #KBF, #133 of 582 🔗

Some bread-baking friends were in the same boat re yeast, Dave. They eventually found some in a small rural general shop.

6590 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to JohnB, #134 of 582 🔗

JohnB I will go for a drive tomorrow, anything is worth a try.

Is trying to local yeast a valid reason for being in the car, if so how far can I travel from home?

So many questions, plenty of time to find a solution.

6612 ▶▶▶ Nel, replying to Bob, #135 of 582 🔗

Morrison’s are doing fine

6793 ▶▶▶ grammarschoolman, replying to Bob, #136 of 582 🔗

Mostly back to normal in West London, apart from flour, which seems to have disappeared entirely.

6633 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Biker, 11, #137 of 582 🔗

I think the trouble is many of the lockdown zealots are cushioned by their wealth and lifestyles that the current situation doesn’t really impact them. To them this is a long holiday where they can do zumba, take pictures of their lovely neighbourhood to put on Instagram, post their latest baking creations and to show off how they celebrated VE Day. Try telling them that many people are losing their jobs or businesses; rise in mental health issues, DV, child abuse and they accuse us of being unfeeling and only concerned about profit. It’s like trying to get blood out of a stone.

It was announced yesterday that taxes will go up to pay for the money the government is currently spending. Maybe the Treasury should propose taxes that would hit these lockdown zealots hard. Then don’t be surprised if they start screeching that everything should go back to how it was before 23 March.

6667 ▶▶▶ paulito, replying to Bart Simpson, 7, #138 of 582 🔗

On Spanish TV they have a slot during thr comercial break called Balcony Stories that shows people in lockdown from all over the world doing zany things in their homes. At first I thought it was harmless, just people trying to relieve the boredom and keep their spirits up. Now I find it intensely creepy and clearly a part of the propaganda effort.

6822 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Bart Simpson, 4, #139 of 582 🔗

Many people who do zumba, take pictures of their lovely neighbourhood , post their latest baking creations, and celebrated VE Day, are strongly opposed to this rabid lockup nonsense.
No point causing even more division, there’s plenty of that already.

6737 ▶▶ Montag Smith, replying to Biker, 2, #140 of 582 🔗

Probably some of the lockdown zealots were also the ones complaining about the economic impact of Brexit, but now think it’s okay to create a much bigger impact on the economy and lives in general. When the dust settles they’ll be moaning if we have another ten years of “austerity” because of all the extra debt we’re racking up.

6889 ▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to Montag Smith, #141 of 582 🔗

It’ll be a lot more than ten years. It could be decades.
We paid back the loans from the U.S. for WW2 in 2006.
We finished paying off the money to end slavery in 2016, I believe.

7304 ▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Montag Smith, #142 of 582 🔗

Indeed. I have a small patch of land as a smallholding in what looks to be a very wealthy area – barn conversions, beautiful homes, countryside. This situation is still affecting them badly financially. Just as an example, one lady who lives there was furloughed from her job but now the extension has been announced, the firm has made her redundant. Her mortgage is high, she has no money, and because of the drop in property prices it is likely she will have to sell for less than the mortgage owed. She is terrified. Her husband died 2 years ago and she has 2 children. This is what lockdown is doing. It’s disgusting.

6791 ▶▶ grammarschoolman, replying to Biker, 4, #143 of 582 🔗

I don’t think in many cases that they haven’t figured it out. It’s that they actively want it to happen. Remember that McDonnell said a year or so ago that an economic shock like Brexit was the best basis for a revolution to take place. Well, he’s got something much more potent now, and the Tories are helpfully making it worse for him.

6342 Peter Thompson, replying to Peter Thompson, 31, #144 of 582 🔗

Tuesday is the day when the ONS publishes its statistics in the UK . We once again see a large number of deaths especially in care homes which are non covid related and my main thought on this is as I have mentioned before the large number of elderly who are revolving door patients with the local hospital They are now not going with acute infections for a few days of treatment at the hospital which might keep them going for another year but are left to pass away in their care home.

It would be interesting to see how many are dying with ” old age ” in part 1 of the death certificate now . Usually a doctor writes this when they are over 85 and for some reason they have collapsed at home and you have no idea why they died.. You can usually find that they had a myocardial infarct a few years ago to back it up and it spares the family the need for the deceased to have a post mortem . . I suspect a few GPs are using ” Covid19 ” on the death certificate in the same way now .

Incidentally I remember writing a couple of ” old age ” down in February of this year when covid19 was rapidly spreading in the UK largely undetected as we only could test those from Wuhan . On reflection they could have been Covid19 deaths as covid19 could have been the straw which broke the camels back.

Anyway peak insanity seems to have been reached with Matt Hancock’s assertion that no hugging of strangers until a Covid19 vaccine has been found. I doubt if Aldous Huxley could have imagined the insane world we are living in now.

6579 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Peter Thompson, 4, #145 of 582 🔗

Hmmm, human sex drive versus Hancock. Difficult one.

6746 ▶▶ Montag Smith, replying to Peter Thompson, #146 of 582 🔗

Given that a Covid vaccine, should one be developed, may only be partially effective like the flu vaccine, it just goes to that people like Matt Hancock should be nowhere near any kind of power and responsibility. I despair at the state of the country in normal times, but now we seem to be surrounded by a collective madness.

6352 Andy, replying to Andy, 2, #147 of 582 🔗

Has there been any analysis of the distribution of mortality by sex in the UK? The difference in total deaths, covid19 or otherwise in England and Wales became available this morning. The publish the breakdown by sex and age group, but don’t sum those groups, making some comparisons difficult. Manipulate the spreadsheet a bit, though and the following comes to light.

w/e Male deaths minus female deaths (all causes, all ages)

6th Mar 24
13th Mar 123
20th March 150
27th March 320
3rd Apr 1201
10th Apr 1380
17th Apr 539
24th Apr 459
1st May -239

That is to say, from 25th Apr to 1st May, when there was an overall excess death total of about 8000, and 6035 death certificates registered mentioned covid19, a disease which has consistently been observed around the world to kill roughly twice as many men as women, 239 more deaths of women were registered than of men.

If the 2:1 ratio of male:female mortality was reliable, the discrepancy should have been in the region of 2000 the other way. Indeed, the observed discrepancy could serve as a crude estimator of the actual direct death toll, being theoretically 3x the difference. The aggregate disparity in male-female mortality over the whole two months was around 4000, suggesting in the vicinity of 12000 direct deaths as of 1st May. The official figure was well north of 20000 by that date, and likely double.

The early weeks up to early/mid April seem to mirror the 2:1 expected fatality ration quite well, but something very concerning seems to kick after the 10th April.

Clearly the weekly death registrations lag current events by a few days, and the totals including many overlapping effects. But the very existence of these overlapping effects should alert those in officialdom and academia that something very big besides covid19 might be going on.

If anyone knows of any explanation or consideration of this phenomenon, in the UK or abroad, I’d be very interested to hear of it.

6374 ▶▶ garry a, replying to Andy, 2, #148 of 582 🔗

Isn’t it because there are far more women than men in the age groups that are most impacted by covid? I think they’re about twice as many women as men aged 85+. So, women are half as likely to die of covid but there’s twice the number of them ergo the actual number of deaths is broadly equal?

6393 ▶▶▶ Andy, replying to garry a, 2, #149 of 582 🔗

But wouldn’t adding up over all age groups would circumvent that issue? The women who die of covid19 would indeed be older on average than men dying of the same cause, but their deaths would still carry the same weighting. Otherwise what does the widely reported 2:1 ratio mean? The death of a woman from covid19 is counted equally as a man’s, regardless of their respective ages.

The only circumstance in which male vs female age-weighting would be relevant would be where the likelihood of men contracting the disease the disease was greater than that of women. I’ve not heard that that is the case – men and women get infected with equal chance as far as I am aware but suffer the symptoms differently. To infect more women than men, and therefore even up the in-built tendency of corona virus to kill men disproportionately, you’d have to protect women from exposure to the virus less well than men.

In addition, the clear imbalance between male and female deaths in the first few weeks after lockdown suggests something, presumably covid19, was indeed killing men preferentially until some other effect kicked in.

6478 ▶▶▶▶ garry a, replying to Andy, #150 of 582 🔗

Thinking about it a bit more, you’re right. My model works on the (incorrect) assumption that men are twice as likely to die as women. The evidence suggests that twice as many men die as women. So the ratio of men to women is irrelevant and there should surely be significantly more male deaths than female deaths.

6498 ▶▶▶▶ Snake Oil Pussy, replying to Andy, 2, #151 of 582 🔗

“you’d have to protect women from exposure to the virus less well than men.”. Simple. A majority of elderly care home residents are women. So when hospitals were told to clear their decks and dump their “non urgent” patients into care homes, women were disproportionately likely to catch covid19 from incoming residents who had contracted it in hospital.

6521 ▶▶▶▶▶ Andy, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, 1, #152 of 582 🔗

That’s certainly a possibility. The only other explanation I could think of is if women on average linger longer by several weeks between infection and succumbing than men. Do you know what the relative proportions of men/women in care homes typically is? Not sure why there’d be a huge imbalance, it’s less how long had than how long you’ve got to go I’d have thought.

6550 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ garry a, replying to Andy, #153 of 582 🔗

Theres an ons report from 2011, puts the ratio at over 3 women to each man in a nursing home, dropping to 2.8:1 by 2011.

6559 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Andy, replying to garry a, 1, #154 of 582 🔗

There’s not much conclusive recent data. I found a report relating to Scotland showing 2:1, but that included a minority proportion other other types of care. Looks like the ratio has been narrowing slowly, but is still 2.6-2.7:1 most likely.

Ye gods. If we’d put half the effort into keeping covid out of care homes as we put into stopping people sunbathing.

6457 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Andy, #155 of 582 🔗

Have you read the Oxford Study, that breaks down risk factors by age and sex (see page 11). Massive cohort, 17.4m. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.06.20092999v1

6522 ▶▶▶ Andy, replying to BecJT, #156 of 582 🔗

I hadn’t. I will now. Thanks.

6354 Poppy, replying to Poppy, 9, #157 of 582 🔗

I’ve been looking at the COVID alert system/Nando’s chilli scale and thinking about it in the context of influenza. So apparently with COVID we’re currently moving from level 4 (‘a COVID-19 epidemic is in general circulation; transmission is high or rising exponentially’) to level 3 (‘a COVID-19 epidemic is in general circulation’). Because the government are being so opaque, we can’t ever be sure of the data or ‘The Science’ which informs what level the UK is at any one time, but we know that every winter we have to deal with a flu epidemic.

Surely flu would fit into the definition of level 3, 4 in a bad winter, maybe even edging into bottom of level 5 (‘as level 4 and there is a material risk of healthcare services being overwhelmed’) because we have had instances in the past where the health service has been overwhelmed due to flu cases and cold weather in winter https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/nhs-on-the-cusp-of-collapse . The 2017 – 2018 season was particularly bad for flu I seem to remember, especially in conjunction with the inclement Beast from the East. And yet we have tolerated flu epidemics for years without locking down.

I know we have a vaccine for flu but it is only 30-60% effective on the whole so widely varying effectiveness https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/seasonal-influenza/prevention-and-control/vaccine-effectiveness . I would have thought the vaccine would be factored into the transmission/the R, which is believed to be around 0.9 – 2.1 for seasonal flu strains https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2715422/ . I can see there being hysteria as soon as the media reports the R of COVID going a whisper above 1, as it has supposedly done for those countries unlocking. I worry that the alert scale may also become misleading, and people may not understand it in this context – they might expect us to go right down to level 1 for COVID, but even flu is not at level 1 because it’s endemic.

I know that COVID is not comparable to flu in all ways but I just thought this was an interesting comparison in the context of the COVID alert scale.

6361 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Poppy, 12, #158 of 582 🔗

“So apparently with COVID we’re currently moving from level 4 (‘a COVID-19 epidemic is in general circulation; transmission is high or rising exponentially’) to level 3 (‘a COVID-19 epidemic is in general circulation’). ”

This is of course a flat out lie by the government, because as we’ve just been informed, there is no epidemic at the moment:


6366 ▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to Mark, 11, #159 of 582 🔗

Indeed, so we may even be reaching level 2 on their trite scale. This really goes to show that this ‘plan’ is all a smokescreen to give the impression they’re in control

6369 ▶▶▶ Gracie Knoll, replying to Mark, 19, #160 of 582 🔗

I said to a friend today, “Britain has not faced a more serious threat since the summer of 1940, on the eve of a possible Nazi invasion.”

This time though, we do not face tyranny from a foreign government. We face tyranny from our OWN government.

In 1940 we were saved by the Battle of Britain. Now we citizens face a battle FOR Britain.

6373 ▶▶▶▶ Angela, replying to Gracie Knoll, 4, #161 of 582 🔗

We face tyranny from our own government in collusion with other WHO compliant governments. The others have gone their own way and mostly had better results.

6407 ▶▶▶▶ Victoria, replying to Gracie Knoll, 14, #162 of 582 🔗

Also interesting how many citizens easily rolled over to become very Nazi in approach (believing the nonsense and snitching on neighbours). Very sad.

6365 ▶▶ Markus, replying to Poppy, 8, #163 of 582 🔗

Ive never taken a vaccine for flu. Im basically never sick either. I know plenty of people who take the flu shot every year and often is sick nevertheless more or less a month or two. I wonder how they estimate the effectiveness of the vaccine.

6368 ▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to Markus, 2, #164 of 582 🔗

I actually got the flu vaccine back in November because it was offered at work so I thought I may as well, because flu sounds pretty nasty and I wanted to avoid it. I’ve never had it in my life before (aged 21) and I didn’t get it this flu season either, but I did get a rather ‘persistent cough’ for around two weeks after having the vaccine. Not sure if it was a side effect or if I caught some other virus.

6379 ▶▶▶▶ Markus, replying to Poppy, 11, #165 of 582 🔗

I came across with an article a couple weeks ago that compared nations with higher flu vaccination rates to nations with lower ones. High vaccinationrate nations like UK, Italy, Spain, Netherlands are among the highest deaths per million of covid. Lowest vaccinations rates are in countries like Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Slovenia and Slovakia. These countries have very low deathcount so far.

Might be nothing do with vaccination rates but found it interesting stats anyway.

6399 ▶▶▶▶▶ South Coast Worker, replying to Markus, 9, #166 of 582 🔗

A study was done a couple of years back using the military as subjects and they found that those that had a flu shot were 34% more likely to contact a coronavirus.

6415 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Markus, replying to South Coast Worker, 2, #167 of 582 🔗

Yeah, ive heard of that. Was it 36% actually…? =)

There was a similar study among children in Hongkong.

“a randomized placebo-controlled trial in Hong Kong children found that flu shots increased the risk of noninfluenza viral ARIs fivefold.”

6412 ▶▶▶▶▶ Victoria, replying to Markus, 4, #168 of 582 🔗

Direct link. Those that had the flue vaccination became more affected by COVID

6428 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ South Coast Worker, replying to Markus, 4, #170 of 582 🔗

Christ, I hope they don’t make the Gates vaccine mandatory, I know he’s a ‘health expert’ (his words) but I believe he may have just a tiny conflict of interest.
Why this isn’t disclaimed every time he’s on the news basically selling his product is beyond me. The media have a lot to answer for.

6446 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ T. Prince, replying to South Coast Worker, 2, #171 of 582 🔗
6503 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ paulito, replying to South Coast Worker, 1, #172 of 582 🔗

Not to mention his disgusting fake meat products.

6467 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Angela, replying to Victoria, 2, #173 of 582 🔗

What’s scary is that in Australia they are mandating the flu shot now for anyone who visits anyone in hospital and for all the older people going back to day centres. It’s just criminal.

6479 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Victoria, 5, #174 of 582 🔗

Wow. So. Maybe the 2/3 times I’ve had the flu jab and then er…. got flu, it was probably actually a cold that the flu jab made me more susceptible to? Wow. Those were some bad colds if this is true. The more this goes on the more I feel vindicated in not having it this year.

6508 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Angela, replying to Farinances, 8, #175 of 582 🔗

Actually I think the flu jab is quite good at protecting against a couple of the flu strains but it can’t protect against one of them and that’s the one that has been floating around the past couple of years.

However a peer-reviewed study published in Clinical Infectious Diseases in March 2016 found that people who were vaccinated against the flu three years in a row were actually at higher risk of being infected with the flu. https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/63/1/21/1745238

Also the respected Cochrane Review that analyses all the studies said in 2018 that it “shows no appreciable effect on working days lost or hospitalization.” https://www.cochrane.org/CD001269/ARI_vaccines-prevent-influenza-healthy-adults .

I’m wary because my sister was vaccine injured and it ruined her life. Apparently there are certain families that need to be careful. However they seem to be trying to rule out any exemptions.

6410 ▶▶▶▶ Victoria, replying to Poppy, 2, #176 of 582 🔗

Always advisable to familiarise yourself with the ingredients and side effects of any drug/vaccination before having that.

6542 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Poppy, #177 of 582 🔗

That’s interesting because I’d wondered if there was a link between the covid stats and the flu jab.

6551 ▶▶▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to Poppy, 3, #178 of 582 🔗

I have noticed in recent years that employers are pushing the flu jab, first it started off with we can offer you a discount if you get the jab at an High Street chemist, last couple of years it is becoming a free offer.

I hate needles, so even as a tight Yorkshireman, I don’t take up the free offer, had flu years ago and it was nasty, but I came through it.


6683 ▶▶▶▶▶ Victoria, replying to Dave #KBF, 4, #179 of 582 🔗

I wonder if you could sue these ‘well-meaning’ employers if you are the unfortunate one suffering from a debilitating side effect as a result of the vaccination.

Always ensure that you check the ingredients and side effects of every vaccination/pharmaceutical drug and then make an informed decision whether to take it or not.

6594 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Poppy, 2, #180 of 582 🔗

It was Corona! 🙂

6405 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Poppy, 2, #181 of 582 🔗

Last year the flue vaccine was 17% effective (not sure how they calculate this number). As we heard it seems as if people who had the flue vaccine are more compromised when getting COVID.

6355 BobUSA, replying to BobUSA, 8, #182 of 582 🔗

If you haven’t already, you might want to add Stanford professor Dr. Scott Atlas’s remarks on the lock down in the US. This was on Fox news last night:
And greetings from sunny Pasadena–I’m enjoying this blog. Loved the link to Lionel Shriver’s interview. And especially Toby’s columns. Thanks for the community. Bob

6448 ▶▶ T. Prince, replying to BobUSA, #183 of 582 🔗

Bob, I tune into Fox because I think it’s a lot more honest than other news outlets (hope I’m right!) I also listen to Dr Steve Turley on YT and am interested in his view that the left is losing in the US. Is this a fair assessment in your view?
Best wishes from the UK!!

6495 ▶▶▶ BobUSA, replying to T. Prince, 2, #184 of 582 🔗

Well, Fox is fairly biased to the right and that needs to be taken into account. But it’s pretty much the only TV option to all the other stations, like CNN, MSNBC, etc–that are just as biased but to the left. And they are all supremely anti-Trump. So Fox is a good antidote and it also covers stories the other networks ignore if it doesn’t suit their agenda. Though FOX does the same sort of omission. I don’t know Steve Turley–did you mean the left is losing on the lockdown issue or in general? And best from the Pacific West Coast!

6360 RDawg, replying to RDawg, 23, #185 of 582 🔗

Hi all, just a reminder I’m planning to drop a big Twitter-bomb this Thursday evening (basically it’s a mass spamming of Boris Johnson, Dominic Raab and Matt Hancock’s Twitter accounts). Here’s how it works:

On Thursday, 14th May at precisely 8.02pm (the second the clap ends):

Step One: Tag @BorisJohnson, @DominicRaab and @MattHancock on Twitter.
Step Two: Type, “This lockdown is destroying our lives and our economy. There is no scientific justification or legal authority to allow it to continue. We demand our freedom be returned now.”
Step Three: Add the hashtags #EndLockDown #WeWillBeFree

It only works if thousands of people do it at the same time. If you want further details, visit my Twitter page here: https://twitter.com/WeWillBeFree82

If it proves successful, I am going to make it a daily event. I am contacting lots of various groups on Twitter who have agreed to share and support this campaign. I have no idea if it will work, but I think it’s worth a try.

More info on how Tweet Bomb’s work can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitter_bomb

Thanks all
R Dawg 🙂

PS Keep fighting the good fight, and remember that famous old adage: “This too shall pass.”

6362 ▶▶ Pebbles, replying to RDawg, 3, #186 of 582 🔗

Well done for coming up with this idea. Hopefully it’ll be a shitstorm for them.

6391 ▶▶▶ RDawg, replying to Pebbles, 4, #187 of 582 🔗

If it works, I will make it a daily event. The main thing is it gets the hashtags trending on Twitter. But it only works if thousands of people all do it. I guess we shall see. Only 48 hours to go…

6403 ▶▶▶▶ South Coast Worker, replying to RDawg, 2, #188 of 582 🔗

If this site promotes it, it will definitely be able to recruit thousands, It will at the very least get some M5M traction. Although they’ll likely call us right wing Nazis nut jobs,,

6434 ▶▶▶▶▶ RDawg, replying to South Coast Worker, 6, #189 of 582 🔗

They can call us what they like. I just want us to live in a free nation where people can use their common sense to make their own decisions. Basically, pretty much what Sweden did/does. We will get there.

I will ask Toby if he can include in Thursday’s blog…

6426 ▶▶ Mark, replying to RDawg, 2, #190 of 582 🔗

I’ll have a go, though I’m not a Twitter tw*t myself. I have a virtually unused account somewhere….

6564 ▶▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to Mark, 1, #191 of 582 🔗

Hi Mark

Make sure your Twitter account is still active before Thursday, if you have not used the account for some time, it may ask you to verify who you are.


6570 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Dave #KBF, #192 of 582 🔗

I’ve only used it a few times in total but I did use it a few days ago to ask someone a coronapanic-related question. So it should be active.

6557 ▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to RDawg, 1, #193 of 582 🔗

Must reactivate my Twitter account, want to be ready for the big day.

6577 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to RDawg, 1, #194 of 582 🔗

omg I love your Boris Jong Un

6602 ▶▶▶ RDawg, replying to Farinances, #195 of 582 🔗

😉 👍🏼

6370 Mark, replying to Mark, 19, #196 of 582 🔗

I definitely think we should have merch and identifying symbols, for those bold enough to wear them.

Here’s my long term plan. We set up a religion of antilockdownists and organise as an oppressed religious and cultural minority. Then we can campaign for equality and rights. Like Sikhs being allowed to wear their ceremonial dagger, we require exemption from lockdown restrictions, though obviously only amongst our own people. So anyone who is an antilockdownist can run a business (bar, restaurant, hairdresser etc) freely, provided it only caters to other antilockdownists while lockdown is in force.

Another advantage is that anyone who criticises us can be freely abused as a bigot, de-platformed and cancelled, and probably threatened with prosecution, and anyone who gets annoyed enough to attack us physically gets slapped with a hate crime charge on top of the usual punishment.

6408 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Mark, 2, #197 of 582 🔗

Can we have blue hair and a flag?

6422 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to BecJT, 3, #198 of 582 🔗

I guess we’ll have to have a Prophet to decide that sort of thing.

I’m available, but most folk might prefer Toby, since we’re on his turf here, after all..

6558 ▶▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to BecJT, 1, #199 of 582 🔗

As long as neither is mandatory 😉

6952 ▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to BecJT, #200 of 582 🔗
6424 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to Mark, 1, #201 of 582 🔗

This is such a good idea.

6458 ▶▶ Angela, replying to Mark, 3, #202 of 582 🔗

I’ve noticed that one of the only ways to gain traction these days is to become a victim. There’s power in fragility. What we need, though, is a bunch of leftie do-gooders with a twitter following to take up our cause, but sadly I think they’re all firmly ensconsed at home.

6490 ▶▶ Rick, replying to Mark, 1, #203 of 582 🔗

Liking this, please start it so I can sign up?

6497 ▶▶ Rick, replying to Mark, 2, #204 of 582 🔗

This could frankly do rather better than hoping for a political solution, politics would require us to somehow get a majority (impossible under the first ast the post vote ignoring system in this country), but a religion could let us get right on with living our lives and futureproof us against further crises of authoritarianism whether they are triggerd by responses to a petered-out pandemic, crackpot counter-terrorist legislation or half-witted health and safety policies. May I suggest “The Moon is a Harsh Mistress” by Heinlein as a holy book for us, it goes into great details about how RH thought a libertarian state could be run.

6372 BoneyKnee, replying to BoneyKnee, -15, #205 of 582 🔗

Hmmm… so is this really a cultural page. The core argument is in today’s post finally! What are the costs versus the benefits of the lock down? Many here argue that the benefits are nil which I don’t believe. I think the costs are high. They aren’t discussed by the politicians or our journalists or many here. So we have Toby laying in to all and sundry about “being wrong” – surprise, surprise people do get forecasts wrong. I don’t remember Prince Charles saying the world would end. Even if he had, so what?

Toby looks like he wants to group together “the left” and “experts” as unreliable and wrong. This is not then about lockdown. I doubt SAGE support the move by Johnson – lift the lockdown without giving clear rules or guidelines. Now we don’t know the SAGE remit. Is it to advice to minimise Covid deaths. If it is then we cannot point fingers at them. Who is looking at the whole welfare of the UK? It is very unclear to me.

The figures quoted in today’s post are pathetic. Take the ONS stats and divide by the population. Come on. Read the FT today which has a better analysis that estimates 2% ish. Still not huge.

Yes. I’m frustrated. There is some good stuff here. It’s where I found out about the surprisingly low health worker mortality rate.

6409 ▶▶ South Coast Worker, replying to BoneyKnee, 15, #206 of 582 🔗

There is obviously a sliding scale of scepticism, moderate questioners like yourself, and full blown deniers like me. Buy you’ve still ended up here, and over time many more will start to realise that something isn’t quite right, And the point of this site is to drive the conversation forward. It’s also an invaluable resource for information the mainstream is completely ignoring, which should raise serious questions in itself,

6476 ▶▶▶ BoneyKnee, replying to South Coast Worker, -3, #207 of 582 🔗

Yes it’s a diverse group. We even have a sprinkling of those that like a nice conspiracy.

6481 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to BoneyKnee, 3, #208 of 582 🔗

Oh lord, you’re back.

6540 ▶▶▶▶▶ BoneyKnee, replying to Farinances, 1, #209 of 582 🔗

Hey, I never left.

6574 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to BoneyKnee, #210 of 582 🔗

Heh :O)

6423 ▶▶ Margaret, replying to BoneyKnee, 1, #211 of 582 🔗

Sorry, can you just clarify what you mean by the “figures quoted in today’s post are pathetic”. Which particular stats. are you talking about? The FT is behind a paywall so I don’t know what the 2% is that you are referring to. Thanks.

6538 ▶▶▶ BoneyKnee, replying to Margaret, #212 of 582 🔗

This is the segment from the FT. It is an article based around what a CEO of a testing company has said. Testing is not easy, high cost and low capacity.

“Estimates of infection rates vary widely but, according to research by the Italian Institute for International Political Studies (ISPI) based on figures from European governments, Belgium has the highest percentage of citizens with some degree of potential immunity in Europe: 6.4 per cent of the population has contracted Covid-19. In Italy, the figure is 4.4 per cent, in the UK it is 3.8 per cent and only 0.7 per cent of the population has had the disease in Germany.

In Sweden, where the state epidemiologist estimated 40 per cent of the population would be immune by the end of May, only 2.5 per cent of the population has come into contact with the virus, according to ISPI.”

There is a great deal of uncertainty around these estimates because wide scale random testing is not being done yet.

6430 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to BoneyKnee, 20, #213 of 582 🔗

I don’t share Toby’s politics, I do share his abject horror at lockdown. In terms of the people who are here, we are a diverse crew, a ‘broach church’ and seeing as no one else is collating this information, and I’ve got virtually no one around me willing to talk about it, I’m here. In fact I’m sure if I went with a pint with most folks here and we got onto politics, we’d disagree about most things but this one. I’m also not a climate change sceptic in the true sense, I am deeply sceptical of the climate change agenda, as most activists seem to hate humans, particularly poor ones (which has its parallels to what’s going on right now, all well and good to talk about saving lives, just depends which lives you are talking about!).

6741 ▶▶▶ Michel, replying to BecJT, #214 of 582 🔗

Well said!

6464 ▶▶ karate56, replying to BoneyKnee, 3, #215 of 582 🔗

I don’t think you can avoid politicising this, even though I don’t think Toby has, at least today. The Prince Charles quote – it’s witty, pure and simple. This forum is serious, but if Toby can’t try and add some humour I wouldn’t come here. I also can’t see a, single benefit from lockdown, as is illustrated by the daily suffering of my elderly parents and young daughter.
I don’t think you can avoid grouping left or anti tory politics and lockdown advocates, their opinions and hysterical revulsion at Boris Johnson’s beyond minimal lockdown lift is glaringly political. There is also a significant % of experts with left wing political ideals, or non Conservative ideals, e.g Ferguson, David King, David Hunter and I guess a few more.
The outcry at Johnson’s so called vague 50 page plan on a political level was hysterical point scoring from all his political opponents, however non vague (to me at) least it was. America is following suit and the lockdown there is severely politicised.

6389 BoneyKnee, replying to BoneyKnee, 3, #216 of 582 🔗

I’m with you and I’m not particularly left at all. Never voted Labour. I too find the Punch & Judy aspects awful. It makes me think that the agenda here is to trash “the left” rather than debate the issues.

6402 ▶▶ Paul Seale, replying to BoneyKnee, 13, #217 of 582 🔗

Hmm, sorry poppet but most of us sceptics are naturally right wing. State control of the populace, economy and adoration of the state tend to be found on the left rather than the right.

I thought we’d beaten communism and now we have a tory chancellor paying people to be unproductive, the sheep are out clapping the NHS and we can see who the state mandates we can.

Socialiam is shit.

6488 ▶▶▶ BoneyKnee, replying to Paul Seale, 4, #218 of 582 🔗

OK love, I’m not a socialist very, very far from it. I am pro-evidence based decision making and like many here wanting a far wider perspective on what needs to be done around Covid.

But hey, why not imply I am a “snowflake” and some how wrong for not being naturally right wing. I would describe myself as naturally right wing in fact.

6510 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Paul Seale, 2, #219 of 582 🔗

Speak for yourself. Social *democrat* here (socialism goes a little too far for me lol).

6529 ▶▶▶▶ Morris_Day, replying to Farinances, 5, #220 of 582 🔗

I did the biggest U-turn of all and voted Lib Dem in the last election and was delighted when we got rid of Anne Main, an appalling human being who should have been sacked after the expense scandal.

This isn’t the time or place for in-fighting.

6799 ▶▶▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Morris_Day, 3, #221 of 582 🔗

Totally agree that this isn’t the time or place for partisanship. I’m someone ‘of the left’ because I believe in freedom for everyone, not just those that can afford it and I also believe we should support those fallen on hard times. (My reasoning may be challenged, that’s not the point.) Up until recently I’ve found this forum to be very tolerant of many points of view so getting a bit disappointed now that people are being defined according to their political affiliations. Always a bloody mistake. I’m a sceptic and am not ‘naturally right wing’, so please ditch the generalisations. If 80% support the lockdown and we elected a Tory government then the sheep (as some have put it) are not going to be all left wing are they?

7032 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ BoneyKnee, replying to Nigel Baldwin, #222 of 582 🔗

Good point. And not all Leavers were the metropolitan elite. Many people have views on a topic that are driven by that issue – not how they voted. So many voters are in fact swingers or abstain.

6392 Old Bill, 10, #223 of 582 🔗

Interesting to read in today’s blog about the differences in ‘social distancing’ rules in various countries. I Don’t know if anyone has mentioned this before but in case not, here is the definition of ‘contact tracing’ from public health england before it was redacted by the ministry of truth:

“When we talk about “close contact” it’s important to point out that we’re not looking for people the person may have passed on the street or in a shop, as the risk in these situations is very low. A close contact involves either face to face contact or spending more than 15 minutes within 2 metres of an infected person.”

It has now been altered to conform to the new reality of course, but you can still find it on the ‘way back machine’ here:


I wouldn’t bank on it staying there for ever though – it is clearly too subversive to remain.

6400 Victoria, replying to Victoria, 9, #224 of 582 🔗

We are still waiting for Public Health England to tell us that Vitamin D levels are critical in protecting us when getting COVID-19 (and lots of other health benefits). Lots of research confirming this but they would rather let people die and the lockdown continue. Shocking!

When last did your GP tested your Vitamin D levels?

6411 ▶▶ Paul Seale, replying to Victoria, 5, #225 of 582 🔗

No idea, gave up trying to see one since Blair privatised them they seem to do nothing but employ several receptionists who are there principally to prevent you from seeing one.

6417 ▶▶ A13, replying to Victoria, 10, #226 of 582 🔗

Vitamin D is important, but don’t overestimate it. It won’t make you immune to viruses. There is a lot of things that contribute to the functioning of a healthy immune system. We don’t need PHE to start an aggressive campaign promoting vitamin D. We need PHE to tell people to eat real food (unprocessed, fruit and veg), drink less, exercise and loose weight. People need to understand that there is no magic pill that will make them healthy.

6421 ▶▶▶ Paul Seale, replying to A13, 4, #227 of 582 🔗

There is, Bill Gates will sell it to you.

6427 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to A13, 3, #228 of 582 🔗

Well, Boris could certainly do with shedding a few (actually, a lot of) pounds. Surely his ordeal would have been much less had he not been putting the pounds on since the general election! Somehow noone seems to be prepared to say so in the MSM!

6433 ▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to IanE, 7, #229 of 582 🔗

Agreed. I found it bizarre when some commentators were saying he’s “obviously very fit” Actually, looking at him stood at the lecturn, he’s actually quite short and looks pretty overweight to me.

6441 ▶▶ Simon Dutton, replying to Victoria, 10, #230 of 582 🔗

There’s no money in vitamin D, that’s why.

In case anyone doesn’t know, the maximum safe dose is 4000 IU a day. Some people recommend the pills which also contain K2 – I take these myself. It’s a good idea (for your immune system) to make sure you get enough vitamin C, zinc and magnesium as well. If you eat lots of leafy greens, citrus fruits, and similar goodies you should be OK for these, otherwise a supplement may be in order.

In theory most of our vitamin D comes from the action of sunlight on the skin. UV-B is the active bit; it is blocked by glass and most brands of sunscreen. Older people (say 65+) have trouble manufacturing D and should supplement as above, as indeed should everyone in winter in northern and far-southern climes. At such latitudes black and Asian people should supplement all year round.

There is widespread vitamin D insufficiency/deficiency, because we spend most of our time indoors or in cars, and wear clothes; this is not how we evolved. Moreover, our obsession with hygiene doesn’t help our immune system either. When I were a nipper we used to go out to play, got filthy, caught tadpoles in ditches, all that, and only came home for tea. George explains the science (NSFW):


6482 ▶▶▶ paulito, replying to Simon Dutton, 2, #231 of 582 🔗

Hello Simon. I take a combo pill containing D, K2 (MK7 from natto) and magnesium. The three work together to boost the immune system and regulate calcium.

6451 ▶▶ Angela, replying to Victoria, 1, #232 of 582 🔗

Interesting that they have linked the risk of getting Covid to blood types. Most at risk type A, least at risk type O.

Here is the breakdown of blood typs per country can’t see major correlations yet

6507 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Angela, 1, #233 of 582 🔗

By this logic I could be indestructible. I have O negative CMV negative blood (and therefore get to donate to little premature babies aaaahh)

6517 ▶▶▶▶ Angela, replying to Farinances, 1, #234 of 582 🔗

They tested thousands so you probably are!

6553 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Angela, 1, #235 of 582 🔗

Wait a minute – couldn’t this also feed into the BAME people being at higher risk? Isn’t there a higher proportion of BAME people with A/B blood ?

6599 ▶▶▶▶ Angela, replying to Farinances, 2, #236 of 582 🔗

Not sure but I would have thought they would be looking at this. The complete lack of proper analysis is breathtaking.

6721 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Victoria, #237 of 582 🔗

Great and reliable Vitamin D resource https://vitamindwiki.com
[Not linked to Wikipedia that is notoriously unreliable as the content can be changed by anyone]

6406 Biker, replying to Biker, 1, #238 of 582 🔗

If you were to take away laughing at lefties they’d be absolutely no point to them whatsoever.

6473 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Biker, 8, #239 of 582 🔗

And that to me seems to be all it is most of the time, it’s not like any of you wished death on anyone, the full blown red hot labour activists I know, shared post after post wishing Boris dead, it truly shocked the hell out of me. We can all take a p*ss take, but that was something else. I know these people too, they meant it. The more middle class they are, the more militant about lockdown / PPE / the teaching unions / fill in the blank they seem to be. You can’t even have a conversation, like we at least can here. If I say anything I’m told to ‘vote Tory’ or I’m ‘right wing’. They’ve truly gone properly mad (or maybe were always totally mad, but I’ve only just noticed).

That said, I supported Simon Dolan’s legal case, I’ve been reading his twitter, I support his legal arguments, I do not support his political views, that man and I would not get on! And that’s OK, I just want his extremely erudite QC to win the case, and it’s the law not him I’m interested in.

Strange days make strange bedfellows I think.

6414 Simon Dutton, replying to Simon Dutton, 18, #240 of 582 🔗

Toby, you say

“It’s quite helpful that these lockdown zealots are nailing their colours to the mast, predicting armageddon if we emerge from under our beds and venture outside. It means that when they’re proved wrong, as I suspect they will be, any future advice they might have for the Government can be safely ignored.”

In this informative and heartening interview:


Professor Dolores Cahill makes the point that the “second spike” our leaders and betters hope for will indeed materialise. Those dying will comprise the people (cancer sufferers, etc.) whose health has been so badly neglected during the present lockdown that they become critical in a few months’ time. Their deaths will no doubt be attributed to Covid-19.

6452 ▶▶ T. Prince, replying to Simon Dutton, 3, #241 of 582 🔗

Biggest problem of all of course is how do you get MSM to TELL THE DAMN TRUTH??


6515 ▶▶▶ Angela, replying to T. Prince, 4, #242 of 582 🔗

They can’t. Have you seen who owns them?

6556 ▶▶ JohnH, replying to Simon Dutton, #243 of 582 🔗

Lockdown helps a 2nd peak/wave/spike – whatever – isolation keeps the less virulent strains from circulating more freely

6444 karate56, replying to karate56, 10, #244 of 582 🔗

Reading about the “independent” SAGE committee, set up by David King, does anyone know who these self appointed gits are? Am I mistaken and were they appointed by anyone? If not, who the hell do they think they are? How exactly can they question the real SAGE, they have no access to the scientific data/formal debate of government advisors so how the hell can they say how shit the real SAGE is?
If they’re self appointed, and by the looks of it they’re a bunch of lockdown loving twats, can I set up my own committee to review their review? I have a sneaking suspicion their recommendations, to whoever gives a shit (MSM, devolved governments, Labour) will be even shitter than Sage’s, which is hard to imagine

6449 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to karate56, 1, #245 of 582 🔗

Thanks karate56, you’ve provided me with my laugh out loud moment of the day!

6485 ▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to karate56, 3, #246 of 582 🔗

From what I can see, Professor King has assembled a group of largely ‘also rans’ who were not good enough to have been invited onto the SAGE committee as external advisers. Several are quite bitter – there is nothing like an academic scorned! Given the quality of the work of the external advisers to SAGE, and the inability of the government members to interrogate the Imperial model that has driven the lockdown strategy, you can draw your own conclusions.

6509 ▶▶▶ coalencanth12, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 1, #247 of 582 🔗

I think Guido’s place at order-order has covered the credentials of the alternate-SAGE, many of which are, shall we say interesting…

6514 ▶▶▶ Angela, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 1, #248 of 582 🔗

Agree, they all seem terribly pro lockdown. A complete waste of time.

6445 A13, replying to A13, 20, #249 of 582 🔗

Don’t be put off by it. I’m left leaning, and I didn’t come here for political views, but for facts about covid. I’m absolutely embarrassed that most lefties seem to be suffering from corona derangement syndrome (I just love that term, been using it in conversations all day). Put your political views aside – this is bigger than that.

6489 ▶▶ paulito, replying to A13, 4, #250 of 582 🔗

I’m left leaning as well, or at least I was before this debacle. Our jailers know no national or ideological boundaries and neither should we who resist them. When all this is over we can go back to being the racists the Guardian say we all are.

6511 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to A13, 3, #251 of 582 🔗

But….. are these people even lefties? I’m convinced they’re not, actually. Think of all the positions they seem to naturally adopt. They’re all repressive and er…. pretty right-wing. Hate speech laws. Safe spaces. Etc. Etc.

6523 ▶▶▶ paulito, replying to Farinances, 2, #252 of 582 🔗

Spot on. I don’t recognise the vapid, sloganeering virtue signalling these hypocrites spout as in any way left wing.

6547 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Farinances, 3, #253 of 582 🔗

You could resort to a two-axis system and class them as left authoritarians.

6562 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Mark, #254 of 582 🔗

True. But then that wouldn’t correlate with their love of large corporations and private assets….. (unless maybe they were Chinese ;p)

6565 ▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Farinances, #255 of 582 🔗

Although having said that they don’t *admit to loving corporations and assets (yet they all still have Amazon Prime and rental properties) so your point still stands.

6615 ▶▶ Nerina Villa, replying to A13, 4, #256 of 582 🔗

Agreed, I’m usually quite left wing but appalled at all of this, enacted by a right wing government and supported by Labour. Left and right are never absolutes, best to make up your own mind on what you think is right. Remember Sweden is leftwing and hasn’t locked down. I’m glad to be here, whoever anyone votes for.

6849 ▶▶▶ grammarschoolman, replying to Nerina Villa, 3, #257 of 582 🔗

I think we’d all be a lot happier if Boris’s was a right-wing government. Unfortunately, it’s turned out to be as centrist as the rest.

6459 AN other lockdown sceptic, replying to AN other lockdown sceptic, 4, #258 of 582 🔗

The results are in from Dr. Jay Bhattacharaya of Stanford Medicine’s COVID-19 antibody survey of Major League Baseball employees. The survey tested more than 5,600 employees across all 26 Major League Baseball clubs throughout the US to see if they’d had the virus.

The study found that only 0.7% of those tested showed evidence that they’d had the virus. They’d expected it to be a lot higher. He states that this probably means that the epidemic has along way to go yet and they’re a long way off achieving herd immunity in the US. The other thing he suggests from his results and other studies is that the poorer you are then the more likely it is that you’ve had the virus,

The Dr is still anti wholesale lockdown though. One standout stat he mentions is that another study has suggested that there could be 75,000 suicides US as a result of the Lockdown. A number of US health care providers are apparently going out of business through lack of normal demand caused by Covid fear. Healthcare for the poor throughout the world will also go significantly backwards he says.

He admits that Lockdowns must have had some impact but all they are doing is delaying the spread of the disease. He says that eradicating the disease through lockdown isn’t possible. He argues that contact tracing isn’t a feasible approach for this virus either. Instead, he believes measures should be more targeted on areas/populations that are at higher risk.

Definitely worth a watch of his interview with Peter Robinson. Lots of other super interesting snippets of information. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=289NWm85eas

In other news. It was definitely busier out and about in rural Notts today. The postie also told me that most of the people she knows went back to work 3 weeks ago.

6463 ▶▶ BoneyKnee, replying to AN other lockdown sceptic, #259 of 582 🔗

The survey is interesting. I think his comment on the downsides of the lock down is the real and pressing issue. We are all need to work out the lessor evil. It’s not obvious but so far I see no attempt to do so by the press or our politicians or clinicians for that matter.

6505 ▶▶ coalencanth12, replying to AN other lockdown sceptic, 1, #260 of 582 🔗

One other possible explanation in the case of sports players, they would tend to be at the peak of their general health and on the young side. There seems to be some evidence that the ‘Rona doesn’t induce a heavy immune response in the healthy young.

6460 kyta, replying to kyta, 5, #261 of 582 🔗

song suggestions
Sex Pistols – Anarchy In The UK
The Jesus and Mary Chain – In a Hole
The Smiths – Stretch out and Wait
Butthole Surfers – Graveyard
Big Black – Kerosene

6713 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to kyta, #262 of 582 🔗

How about this for irony:


Huey Lewis and The News – Workin’ for a Livin’

6800 ▶▶ Michel, replying to kyta, #263 of 582 🔗

Kirsty MacColl made some now appropriate songs, how about: “can’t stop killing you”, ” a new England”, or even the one about the guy working down the chipsshop…

6462 BecJT, replying to BecJT, 12, #264 of 582 🔗

I’m sort of in the same boat, I’m a middle class sort of left of centre softie, but have been disillusioned with the left for a while, I voted remain (but now don’t care, because of how working class people ended up getting treated both with that, and particularly after the election, there sure is a naked contempt for ‘poor’ people when they don’t do as they’re told by the left which really turns my stomach), and because I’ve tangled with proper lefty activists on a women’s campaign I’ve been involved in, which brought me up short in shock and horror, and now this.

Erstwhile sensible Labour activists I know, wished death on the prime minister with glee. I mean, I think he’s a mendacious narcissist, but really? He’s got kids, and a mum, and a girlfriend. I’ve never seen a Tory do that, take the p*ss yes, be politically ruthless yes, wish death on their political opponent. Never. So whilst I share your unease, where would we have been with no ‘right wing’ voices asking questions about this, as Labour certainly didn’t? I’m learning a new appreciation for how necessary the yin yang of left right is, we kinda need each other to rein in the excesses of either side, and it’s not like the left aren’t doing it about people like us is it? And, final bit of my rant I promise, middle class lefties need to get in the sea right now imho, they are so blinded by their hatred of the ‘evil tories’, and yet most cushioned by their affluence, they have weaponised this to the degree that the Government had literally no wriggle room at all and they are now fervently campaigning for poverty, the world’s gone topsy turvy!

So my current status is: a plague on both their houses, and I’ll take my critical thinking where I find it.

I do agree though, why not just win one argument, rather than create another one or two for ourselves. We can sort out climate change and academic lefties who bake their own bread, and militant vegans at a later juncture, I just want this darn thing over with, and for that we need as many people on board as possible.

6475 ▶▶ Mark, replying to BecJT, 3, #265 of 582 🔗

“I’ve never seen a Tory do that, take the p*ss yes, be politically ruthless yes, wish death on their political opponent.”

My dad (an old fashioned Liberal) used to say that (as generalisations obviously) the right tend to be motivated by greed, the left by hatred.

6484 ▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Mark, 7, #266 of 582 🔗

They are frothing it with it now, it’s really shocked me (when I say I’m left, I’m Blair left, I’m not a signed up member or anything, take an interest, and after this, even that’s under rapid review!) but I’ve honestly had more earnest conversations with Tory voters (and one chairman) sick with worry about the impact on the poor and vulnerable. Literally not a peep out of them. When I said something about job losses, I was told those people could get a job at Tesco or Amazon (or go and work in a dark satanic mill???? That pays no tax???), it’s baffling.

I like one nation tories, the old school gentleman and a scholar types, who understand the messy compromises necessary and are pragmatic, and I think it’s the dearth of them at the helm that have got us into this mess. And I for sure don’t hate anyone, and don’t want to be associated with anyone that does.

6805 ▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to BecJT, 1, #267 of 582 🔗

I respect all you have posted here BecJT but you are kidding me that you’ve never seen a Tory wish death or something vile on a political opponent? So where did all that vitriol for Jeremy Corbyn come from for five years? It wasn’t just from the PLP. The PLP doesn’t own The Mail, Sun and Times (to name but three). The readership of the same organs aren’t the PLP. The most reviled man ever in British politics, and that hatred didn’t come from some Tories? Sorry, have to take you to task here. I have spoken to many Tories who wanted him dead, as I spoke to many Tories who wanted Nelson Mandela executed.

6853 ▶▶▶ grammarschoolman, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 1, #268 of 582 🔗

Please show me evidence that anyone on the right wanted Corbyn dead (as opposed to calling him out or laughing at him).

6877 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 1, #269 of 582 🔗

Not going to deny that you come across the odd overwrought type on the right that might call for Corbyn’s death, but I honestly can’t say it’s been very common. Certainly my experience has been that wishing people dead for their politics is much more common on the left than the right. Thatcher, Tebbit, Reagan, Bush, Farage, Trump, all the left’s favourite demons seem to be fairly routinely targeted for death fantasies, usually justified by explaining that they are a legitimate target because they are “fascist” or “racist” or whatever.

As for Corbyn himself, I’ve seen more really vicious vitriol generally aimed at him from Blairites than from Tories (though there is plenty of the latter around, especially in the pro-Conservative media, mostly for straightforward political competition reasons).

Mandela is in an entirely different category, and there can be and is legitimate disagreement about him, ranging from saint to Gerry Adams-like terrorist or terrorist accomplice.

6492 Pebbles, replying to Pebbles, 11, #270 of 582 🔗

I came across this article today… LOL:
I shouldn’t laugh but cry. A goat and a paw paw test positive for Coronavirus in Tanzania… President had ordered secret experiment giving plant and animal samples human names and ages to test accuracy of the test kits. (Clearly the test kits aren’t working then, are they?) Meanwhile a man in Georgia tested both negative and positive for Coronavirus within the course of four hours…

6494 ▶▶ Pebbles, replying to Pebbles, 1, #271 of 582 🔗

Reuters also had the news by the way…. so it isn’t just a hoax: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-tanzania-idUSKBN22G295

6513 ▶▶ Angela, replying to Pebbles, #273 of 582 🔗

Maybe it’s still on the tests?

6635 ▶▶ Markus, replying to Pebbles, 1, #274 of 582 🔗

How ingenious evil plan it would be to rig the tests. This pandemic would last as long as we keep testing, And that is obviously exactly what WHO has been telling us to do, test and test even more. Let’s even test the people with no symptons at all…

6705 ▶▶▶ Nel, replying to Markus, #275 of 582 🔗

Has anyone looked at the YouTube feed for David Martin World? He implies just that in one of his videos. Very detailed journalism connecting the dots. Stick with him. Explains what’s going on very clearly.

6496 coalencanth12, replying to coalencanth12, 21, #276 of 582 🔗

First of all let me reassure readers not all academics are lockdown lovers – in my science group and institute we are primed to return to work. In fact I’m a bit worried that some people who should really shield are keen as mustard to get back in. That said, we had a back to work planning meeting today and the ‘new normal’ sounds atrocious. One way systems around our building, allocated bogs (if we are even allowed to use them at all!), restricted in which labs and buildings you can use, no socialising in work… Give me strength. This will kill off innovation in a lot of work places, promote silo mentality and an atomised workforce. To be fair, our senior management share these concerns. And the idea of public transport at 10% capacity, on the buses round here, good god… Who are they paying for this??

BTW, any academics getting excited about lockdown and promoting the end our social and economic system, will be laughing the other side of their faces soon. I’m aware of large scale redundancies in the offing at all the major local universities, and I’m led to believe Oxford have laid off a lot of their college tutors/lecturers. It’s that lack of non-EU students and their large fees…. And even home students are getting restive about full fees for online teaching, which I am told is going down like a cup of sick… I count myself lucky (at the moment) that I work in a part of academia not reliant on students….

6512 ▶▶ Mark, replying to coalencanth12, 4, #277 of 582 🔗

“This will kill off innovation in a lot of work places, promote silo mentality and an atomised workforce. To be fair, our senior management share these concerns. And the idea of public transport at 10% capacity, on the buses round here, good god… Who are they paying for this??”

We really are talking about significant drops in productivity and in competitiveness for those nations stupid enough to take this kind of stuff seriously.

6532 ▶▶▶ coalencanth12, replying to Mark, 4, #278 of 582 🔗

This is something that our private sector clients are concerned with, the feedback I’ve had suggests a move towards outsourcing to more sane countries or taking more of an ‘actuarial’ risk based approach with their insurers.

I’m surprised someone of Dominic Cummings’ alledged intellect is condoning this farce.

6533 ▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to coalencanth12, 2, #279 of 582 🔗

Yes, agree with your post. I have links into academia – anyone not going into REF 2021 at 3*/4* is toast (assuming REF going ahead – last communication was mid-April). Lots of noise from VCs and special interest pleading to protect their ‘property empire with a bit of light teaching on the side’. Perfect time to rationalise and sell of brownfield sites for much-needed housing.

6537 ▶▶▶ coalencanth12, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 1, #280 of 582 🔗

I think the last I heard was that REF was cancelled for now – we don’t have to participate in this being a bit more core government than a university is. I’d agree a lot of early career people are toast, especially as there may be less ‘teaching fellow’ positions available for those whose research is not deemed good enough. We live in interesting times..

6549 ▶▶▶▶ PFD, replying to coalencanth12, 3, #281 of 582 🔗

REF hasn’t been cancelled. The submission date has been postponed until April 2021 but the census date for publications remains the same. It’s a tough time for universities. I’m head of a big research lab that is currently closed. My German colleagues have been operating normally through their lockdown. Each day this continues we are losing competitiveness and opportunities. The plans for re-opening are not practical in any sense and I suspect we’ll just assess the risks ourselves, as we always do, and carry on as we have always done. That is once the doors are unlocked!
As far as teaching goes the worry is fewer foreign students, students intercalating for a year and a lower take up of university places by this years A level cohort.

6758 ▶▶▶▶▶ coalencanth12, replying to PFD, #282 of 582 🔗

Thanks for the info re: REF!

6499 Sheltielass, replying to Sheltielass, 21, #283 of 582 🔗

If I am wrong please correct me, but as far as I can see now Westminster is allowing house buying to recommence. People that were about to move before lockdown can now start planning to move and people can go view houses that were already on the market before lockdown started. So hang on was it not Matt Hancock this morning saying you can’t go visit your parents in their own garden as it may involve you waking through their house to gain access to the garden but now its OK for complete strangers to wander about your house, nosy in your bathroom and measure up your bedroom.

Don’t get me wrong, I am so glad the light is appearing at the end of the tunnel regarding lockdown but I just can’t get over how bonkers some of the rules regarding the relaxing of it is.

6501 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Sheltielass, 14, #284 of 582 🔗

Basically they don’t want any social contact whilst allowing er…. social contact in workplace or economic settings. Batshit crazy.
The cynical conspiratorial side of me is whispering that they just want to repress any possible social unrest by not allowing any mass gatherings indefinitely…….

6527 ▶▶ Morris_Day, replying to Sheltielass, 16, #285 of 582 🔗

We are living through a pantomime. When this is looked back on in a couple of years, the utter clusterfuck will be glossed over by a quick ‘we saved x lives’. There is no voice for reason in this argument.

I hope tomorrow is the start of getting back to normal. I will visit my park with interest. I’m glad that one of my usual lunch places, and a local coffee shop both reopened on Monday

6580 ▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Sheltielass, 13, #286 of 582 🔗

How thick is Matt Hancock really?

6586 ▶▶▶ A Meshiea, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 3, #287 of 582 🔗

Thicker than his name would wish.

6519 coalencanth12, replying to coalencanth12, 9, #288 of 582 🔗

I think lockdown scepticism swings both left and right, and extremists on both sides have a dark agenda with it and the dreaded ‘new normal’. I think the current problem stems from the champaign socialist wing of the left…. I think the lockdown fight needs a towering figure of the left to come down on our side to shut down the ‘evil tories want you back to work’ mentality..

6528 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to coalencanth12, 4, #289 of 582 🔗

“Towering figure of the left”

*looks around* *squints* :o(

6560 ▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Farinances, 2, #290 of 582 🔗

That made me LOL. We do need someone sensible that the lefties will listen to or at least respect. I’ve seen the twitter latest, big campaign to get people to refused to work. I’d imagine behind closed door Kier must be surely feeling a tiny bit of dread?

6569 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to BecJT, 3, #291 of 582 🔗

I once interviewed Kier once you know (back in 2015 when he was…. actually I have no idea what he was, but desperate to talk to student journalists apparently). He’s the slipperiest m’fr I’ve ever had the displeasure of trying to extract a straight answer from. He’s the most Blairlike thing I’ve ever been in a room with.
So….. dread? I dunno. Not sure he feels anything really except a desperate need for power.

6854 ▶▶▶ grammarschoolman, replying to Farinances, #292 of 582 🔗

To be used in future definitions of ‘contradiction in terms’.

6524 Angela, replying to Angela, 11, #293 of 582 🔗

I think this whole left or right wing identification is meaningless and causes division. I was a ‘leftie’ guardian reader for years until the Guardian was bought by a Saudi and turned into MSM. I always voted Lib Dem or Green and like Tony Blair until we went to Iraq. But since I believe that individual countries can be more dynamic without centralised control I voted for the Conservatives and Brexit. Now I’m kind of nowhere and the Lord Buckethead party is starting to look attractive…

6572 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Angela, 4, #294 of 582 🔗

Yes, this. Increasingly I find ‘left’ and ‘right’ means nothing these days. Mostly because the terms have been corrupted and somewhat flipped (as I said above there are an awful lot of ‘lefties’ who hate working class people and want to throw you in jail for saying things they don’t like). There seem to be a lot of very sensible and moderate ‘right-wingers’, I find myself drawn towards them more these days because they don’t have that sneering, judgemental tone about everything. However we still disagree radically on how best to run the economy – but likewise I disagree radically with ‘lefties’ on that one too because they seem to think the economy doesn’t matter, because they’re goons. It’s all very confusing and dementing if you let it be. Alternatively, you can see it as a blessing that these traditional ‘labels’ are being eroded and people of sense, whatever their supposed affiliation, are coming together in the middle.

6600 ▶▶▶ Angela, replying to Farinances, #295 of 582 🔗

I’m hoping we do come together but polarisation seems to be de rigueur – along with very strong feelings that lead to unpleasantness and division. It’s time to wave the white flag.

6679 ▶▶ paulito, replying to Angela, 3, #296 of 582 🔗

Ah yes The Guardian. Did anyone spot their recent headline which read How to get great service in restaurants, or some such bollocks. This was the point I decided I’d never look at the vile, ridiculous propagandist rag ever again. I’m sure what the article didn’t say was the few restaurants that survive the immediate aftermath of the insanity that they so enthuiastically whipped up will have virtually no customers. By the way this gem of a story was in the most shared most viewed section.

6704 ▶▶▶ Angela, replying to paulito, 1, #297 of 582 🔗

It’s a great tragedy what happened to the Guardian. I think it coincided with PM Cameron reading the former editor the riot act after they published the Wikileaks stuff. Then it was sold to Saudis and other interests. I used to really love the independence of that paper but now it’s just a mouthpiece like other MSM.

6534 Hail, 10, #298 of 582 🔗

“a senior panjandrum at the WHO gave a press conference two weeks ago in which he praised Sweden as a “model” that the rest of the world should follow. ”

More attention is due Sweden, now that the epidemic there is coming to an end we can get a fuller picture of what a No Lockdown Reality looks like:

Stay-Open Sweden set to lose 0.02% of total population to Coronavirus, in line with usual peak flu years; 2020 may equal 2018 in total mortality; why did we destroy the economy over this?

6539 Chris, #299 of 582 🔗

I will send a donation when you add a Bitcoin option. 🙂

6546 Bob, #300 of 582 🔗

Interesting analysis using excess deaths as a metric:

(My thoughts are that there will be a rebound in the other direction at some point)

6555 Paul B, replying to Paul B, 7, #301 of 582 🔗

And so it begins, hope they enjoyed their government sponsored holidays – https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/05/12/exclusive-treasury-blueprint-raise-taxes-freeze-wages-pay-300bn/

6571 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Paul B, #302 of 582 🔗

Bloomin’ heck, that’s bad!

6561 BecJT, replying to BecJT, 7, #303 of 582 🔗

Did we all catch Lord Sumption being terribly patronised, and still gracious on BBC Radio 4? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86P7EEJeNKM

6568 ▶▶ JohnH, replying to BecJT, 2, #304 of 582 🔗

He was excellent once the interruptor in chief Evan D finally shut up

6765 ▶▶ Edna, replying to BecJT, #305 of 582 🔗

A friend had mentioned this to me, but I couldn’t find it, so thank you for sharing the link! How sensible Lord Sumption sounds and how irritating is the interviewer (and rather rude, I thought).

6563 Nigel Baldwin, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 9, #306 of 582 🔗

I see that the porn channel that is the BBC, and a breeding ground for Baron Munchausens, is now saying ‘x thousand number of deaths LINKED to Covid19′ not ‘died of’. Small mercies

6595 ▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 11, #307 of 582 🔗

Time to get shot of the license fee and make the BBC stand on is own knees, the way they are pandering to whoever is pushing the CV19 agenda is shocking. The puppet masters will not be financing this shoddy show of non journalism , we the British public are.

I used to trust the BBC, but all trust is now lost.

6604 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Dave #KBF, 8, #308 of 582 🔗

I’m seriously considering whether to renew. I haven’t watched the BBC News for several days now and I feel quite liberated. I was trying to think which programmes I would miss and I couldn’t think of any, actually. Not having to endure those facile “stay safe” messages, especially from the weather forecasters. I thought it was bad before this when they used to entreat you to wear a pullover if it was a bit cold. Now it’s wear a pullover while you’re responsibly social-distancing.

6636 ▶▶▶ Pebbles, replying to Dave #KBF, 2, #309 of 582 🔗

Totally agree. Go support some of the small outlets with real journalism instead… for a few bucks a month you get really good journalism.

6598 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 10, #310 of 582 🔗

I clocked this last week.

It went from ‘of’
to ‘covid related’
to ‘covid linked’

6647 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 7, #311 of 582 🔗

I haven’t watched a live tv channel in many months and certainly not BBC ones. I lost interest in their propaganda quite a while ago, during the Brexit days, and nowadays the rolling 24 news channels have their own agendas. BBC News is one of the worst. If I watch tv, I stick to Netflix or Prime and choose my entertainment. Time to give up the licence fee now I think. Their handling of this situation has been appalling.

6581 BobT, replying to BobT, 18, #313 of 582 🔗

So, just to put the nail in the coffin of British small business, I read today that the Govt. have allocated more funds to the Health and Safety Executive so that they can police businesses on their implementation of measures to protect employees from the virus.

Apparently, businesses will have to compy with social distancing, mask wearing, disinfection, cleaning and other silly measures to protect their employees. They are also required to carry out a Risk Assessment. How on earth can an employer assess the risk of infection of his or her employees when even the WHO, Govt. experts or the medical establishment do not know what this risk is?

A reporter asked what would happen to businesses which were not in compliance and the reply, gleefully given, was that HS&E have and will use their powers to prosecute offenders. In other words if someone in the employ of a small business gets sick from or dies from the virus, its managers or owners can end up with big fines or in Jail

In the past I have run a small business in the UK and I found the regulatory climate stifling, especially for innovation. I can just imagine the little Jobsworths having a party.

If I were presently the owner of a UK small business, closed down by the lockdown, knowing that HS&E were going to hound me and potentially put me in Jail I don’t think I would bother reopening.

6585 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to BobT, 15, #314 of 582 🔗

My prediction, employers will start sacking now, particularly small ones, why put yourself through that if you don’t have to?

6607 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to BobT, 8, #315 of 582 🔗

I’m afraid you’re right about the mind-set of those who check businesses. I had a run in with an EHO two years ago and if this new lot of jobsworths are half as picky, then god help us. The thing is, completing the paperwork to say you’ve done something is more important than the actual doing. I hadn’t ticked a box to say I’d cleaned something even though it was patently obvious to anyone with half a brain cell that I had cleaned it, but no, rules is rules. And don’t bother to try and plead your case. Her exact words to me were “we can do this the easy way or the hard way”

6640 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to BobT, 7, #316 of 582 🔗

If that’s the case then that will also be the nail in the coffin of small and regional museums. As I’ve mentioned in another comment here, social distancing is nigh on impossible with museums and heritage sites while mask wearing is both unwelcoming and inappropriate. The latter also impedes communication as I was reminded of a run in I had with a post office worker a few days ago who was wearing one and was rude to me when I asked her politely to repeat what she was saying to me.

I won’t be surprised if more and more businesses will close and put more people out of work.

6711 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Bart Simpson, 5, #317 of 582 🔗

Exactly. it’s basically a huge drop in productivity, which ultimately means job losses.

6727 ▶▶ Paul, replying to BobT, 2, #318 of 582 🔗

Reminds me of a few years ago with our business,a government agency insisted we did a risk assessment for a bizarre situation,the chances of which happening were vanishingly small,we wasted a lot of time trying to figure it out but we were stumped,we went back to them to ask how they would do it and they said,’oh,we have no idea,but it’s you that has to do it not us’ !.

6767 ▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to BobT, 2, #319 of 582 🔗

Prosecution would have to prove that they got sick because of the lack of provisions made which is all but impossible

6851 ▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Nigel Baldwin, #320 of 582 🔗

Wouldn’t they just have to prove they broke whatever stupid new laws are created?

6894 ▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to guy153, 1, #321 of 582 🔗

Probably (groan). This is the truly frightening aspect of all this. As I discussed with my business partner earlier today, are we going to face the prospect of ranks of CSI-types descending upon us swabbing surfaces for evidence of germs/viruses? I hope it doesn’t come to that but I wouldn’t bet against it.

6582 A Meshiea, replying to A Meshiea, 20, #322 of 582 🔗

Wow tonight’s Newsnight was an education in propaganda. I’ve never seen such a full court press (pardon the basketball analogy I’m deep into netflix “The Last Dance”) against challenge to the orthodoxy.
I suppose it should be e expected as we near the end game where more people realized this is the biggest hoax of modern history.
The challenge now is how many of us will stick our neck out and resist.
I’m getting very close to extending my neck.
I have already told my indoctrinated friends that I’m a panic skeptic and when they are ready my door is open for a BS BBQ.
Completely confused reactions.

6587 ▶▶ Mark, replying to A Meshiea, 19, #323 of 582 🔗

It’s going to be interesting to see how people’s views change as the scale of the costs incurred gradually dawns on them, and how long the anger can be postponed and where it ends up being directed. I imagine most politicians at the moment are either salivating at the prospect of blaming their rivals or sweating profusely at the risk of getting any blame themselves. Or both at once.

I think the Conservatives think if they can get into the position of being the ones seen as trying to reopen faster and leave Labour seen as the ones dragging their feet then ultimately that will benefit them, provided people are so stupid as to forget that the whole thing was their fault anyway. And Labour seems up for going that way.

But I’m not sure either party is really ready for what’s coming. The people of this country simply have not been prepared for the price they are going to have to pay, when the bill comes due.

6591 ▶▶▶ A Meshiea, replying to Mark, 15, #324 of 582 🔗

I get the feeling we need to get out of the closet soon and start getting visible.
If we wait to long they will spin this as “if we hadn’t locked down, we would never have been so SAFE”
That bloody word.

6641 ▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Mark, 6, #325 of 582 🔗

Agree. Plus have any of them read a history book? What happens when we have crushing depression + inflationary spiral + bitter political recrimination and a need for a scapegoat? I am now increasingly worried about the politics of this. The accusation levelled at people like us is we are extreme right wing, in actual fact I am more worried about the extreme right wing (and the extreme left wing, which seems to be gathering pace as well).

6763 ▶▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to BecJT, 4, #326 of 582 🔗

Amazing to be called extremely right wing when I’ve only just resigned from the Labour Party because I wasn’t interested in Blair Mk 2

6792 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 2, #327 of 582 🔗

There’s a big need for some new parties at the moment, I think! Lots of people on the left will be alienated by the Labour Party’s coming reversion to Blairism under Starmer, as well as some like you and Bec who have seen past the covebola panic. Where will they go do you think?

And on the right there surely must be a lot of disillusionment with the “Conservative” Party over the covebola panic, and if leaving the EU goes ahead so the Brexit issue isn’t revived the Brexit parties won’t be a factor any more. Nowhere to go at the moment.

A German-style anti-lockdown party would be good, though perhaps one on the left and one on the right would be wiser if long term viability, turning into broad “populist/reformist” parties of left and right on the Italian/Greek models, is wanted.

6669 ▶▶▶ Victoria, replying to Mark, 6, #328 of 582 🔗

Agree. Labour is going to pay heavily for failing to support the opening of schools. The Conservatives are going to pay heavily for this mess, they are making matters worse by fumbling through the easing of the lockdown. Most of their regular supporters (including those over 70) are not going to forget.

6686 ▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Victoria, 5, #329 of 582 🔗

Because they want to be ‘popular’, it’s unforgiveable really, we have data now, it’s not what they said (of if we’re being kind, thought) it was. Surely, there’s one grown up among them who is willing to point this out? I’m just trying to have a good faith discussion in my town’s facebook group, it’s been two months of photos and naming and shaming lockdown ‘breakers’, finally there is some discussion, but even then, doesn’t matter what I say, or how carefully I say it, I’m just a heartless murderer. We have got to turn this narrative around if we’ve got any hope whatsoever of salvaging this situation before this political vacuum sucks in some really unpleasant consequences.

6596 Mark, replying to Mark, 22, #330 of 582 🔗

Tackling to be banned in training and pitches disinfected in Premier League’s plan for Project Restart

Every time you think you’ve plumbed the full depths of this insanity, the nation sinks a little lower, and some new nonsense is unveiled.

This idea of spraying disinfectant around outdoors is just pathetic. It’s what we used to call, back when semi-sanity used to prevail, polluting. And the idea that disinfecting a football pitch is going to prevent even one transmission of this disease, is basically implausible, not that preventing a few transmissions would in any case be remotely worth polluting 2 acres of even grass monoculture.

This is all completely divorced from reality. It’s people in the grip of delusion desperately trying to think up ways to make it look as though they are doing something.

6605 ▶▶ A13, replying to Mark, 21, #331 of 582 🔗

This is beyond insane – I can’t believe this.
What’s coming next? Majority of sports will face similarly stupid rules. Tour de France with 21 stages of an individual time trial – how exciting, I can’t fucking wait to watch it.
So this is it, the end of humanity. Not another ice age, not a giant asteroid, but this – a virus with a mortality rate below the seasonal flu. Are we sure that it’s not some brain-eating amoeba that’s causing this?

6616 ▶▶▶ Nerina Villa, replying to A13, 2, #332 of 582 🔗

That’s a good explanation, mo wonder brains seem missing!

6606 ▶▶ A13, replying to Mark, 7, #333 of 582 🔗

Maybe we just need to wait a few decades. All these people will stop reproducing since meeting a new partner won’t be safe, let alone having sexual intercourse. They will become extinct like dinosaurs. The world will be free again.

6608 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to Mark, 11, #334 of 582 🔗

I keep waiting for the slumbering masses to rise up. When are people going to wise up to the complete and utter insanity of all this? Just heard a cricketer on the radio talking about how they are going to manage. What are they going to do, disinfect the ball after each fielder has touched it and will there now be no congratulatory hugs and high-fives when they get a wicket?

6625 ▶▶ wendyk, replying to Mark, 3, #335 of 582 🔗

My brother-in-law is an avid cricketer in his spare time. His team travel regularly for local and regional matches .

Since he also does the accounts, presumably he’ll have to set aside funds for disinfectant and protective measures.

Imagine a fast bowler resplendent in PPE.

Will the fielders be allowed to pick up the ball?

Recall Jeffrey Dujon’s magical catch back in the sensible 80s when the Windies delighted us all with their skill: would such a move be banned by the Elf and Safety cops now?


Since we’re currently exhorted to reduce plastic waste, how will the new rules compromise this?

6714 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to wendyk, 2, #336 of 582 🔗

Great clip. I know. Yep, re. your comment on waste – am starting to see plenty of face masks being discarded on the streets.

6745 ▶▶▶▶ wendyk, replying to kh1485, #337 of 582 🔗

Same here; so much for recycling!

6634 ▶▶ A Meshiea, replying to Mark, 3, #338 of 582 🔗

Footballers aren’t renowned for their intelligence.
One day someone will sit them down and explain the wonders of sunlight on genetic material such as RNA viruses.
“Once upon a time there was a wittle virus….”

6639 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Mark, 2, #339 of 582 🔗

I’ve just posted this, all I’ve got is hahahaha the Telegraph, I can’t find it in the other papers yet, but I think THIS scenario, explained in health and life expectancy terms (that’s what I do for a job) might wake a few up https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/05/12/exclusive-treasury-blueprint-raise-taxes-freeze-wages-pay-300bn/

6643 ▶▶ Moomin, replying to Mark, 7, #340 of 582 🔗

Sigh! Just when I thought it was impossible to get any more ridiculous! Have you also seen that the Blackpool tourist board has changed its slogan to Do not visit blackpool! How quickly we have degenerated into complete madness!

6649 ▶▶ Simon Dutton, replying to Mark, 2, #341 of 582 🔗

I’d upvote you twice if I could. Your story beats this one, by quite a margin, which is saying a lot:


6611 Willow, replying to Willow, 5, #342 of 582 🔗

I’ve had an idea to make some memes for social media. I was thinking of sourcing very hard hitting images of totalitarianism and then captioning them.
So for example..

We don’t follow China’s (or fascist) justice policies
comment image

Why would follow their health policies?


6627 ▶▶ wendyk, replying to Willow, 1, #343 of 582 🔗

Gleichschaltung :

the enforcement of standardization and the elimination of all opposition within the political, economic, and cultural institutions of a state

I don’t think we’re quite there yet, but idiocy prevails


The images won’t appear but worth looking at them to see the first dissenters at Dachau.

6617 Nerina Villa, replying to Nerina Villa, 4, #344 of 582 🔗

Hi has anyone else been posting antilocked/sceptical articles on Facebook? I have and am getting zero comments or views, whereas if I post something else i get lots. Are people not seeing them? A friend asked why I’m not posting, but I am. Anyone had similar experience?

6632 ▶▶ A Meshiea, replying to Nerina Villa, 4, #345 of 582 🔗

It’s a common censorship method. The poster can see the content but no one else can. That happened to me on the FT.
Takes a long time to figure it out.

6638 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Nerina Villa, 4, #346 of 582 🔗

Yep, if I post a cat picture, it’s a flurry of heart emojis, if I post ‘economic armageddon’ zip.

6646 ▶▶ Hammer Onats, replying to Nerina Villa, 11, #347 of 582 🔗

I’m not so sure about censorship – I think people may be getting pissed off but are frightened to say so. Our local FB page used to be full of posts by the lockdown zealots. These have all but dried up and those that are posted are mostly ignored. A post about dog turd will get many, many more comments than a CV post. My view is that a lot of people are enjoying the pandemic – what’s not to like, free money, long lie ins and evenings spent boozing and watching Netflix. However, that’s not to say they believe some of the nonsense spouted by MSM. Only when it hits them that they will be out of a job in a couple of months will They start agitating. Even the Guardian reading university types are starting to see that redundancy beckons.

6676 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Nerina Villa, #348 of 582 🔗

Great article about social media censoring. https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2020/05/05/youtube-censorship.aspx

If you prefer to keep your data (and thoughts) private also reconsider your gmail or yahoo email accounts or corresponding with people/business owners with these accounts

6695 ▶▶ Sceptic, replying to Nerina Villa, 1, #349 of 582 🔗

They are deliberately reducing the exposure. Has anyone seen those ‘official’ government Covid notices where the hashtag trends are? Big Brother making sure we know the ‘right’ way to think.

6718 ▶▶ Suitejb, replying to Nerina Villa, #350 of 582 🔗

Interesting, me too. All I said in the post was that people might find the link interesting and informative. I don’t use Facebook a lot but thought that at least one or two people might acknowledge it, but nothing.

6621 Barney McGrew, replying to Barney McGrew, 26, #351 of 582 🔗

Apologies if this has been posted before.

Today’s Sun editorial contradicts everything they have been striving for over the last couple of months:

“We understand how nervous many Sun readers will be today heading back to work. Do try to remember that most people’s risk from Covid-19 is still relatively tiny. Even if you were unlucky enough to catch it, coronavirus becomes serious overwhelmingly among the old, sick or obese, of whom the vast majority survive… life involves risk. Covid-19 has made it a fraction riskier still. We will do ourselves MORE damage long-term by refusing to venture back.”


I suppose we should be grateful.

I really do think they’ve only just realised they were busy destroying their own futures. Perhaps they’re feeling like ‘Covidiots’.

6671 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Barney McGrew, 8, #352 of 582 🔗

Well, that’s a start! Hopefully the rest of the dreadful MSM might start to follow suit.

6696 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Barney McGrew, 5, #353 of 582 🔗

Thank God! I dislike that rag but it’s the highest circulation and most influential paper in the country!

6622 OpenCorona, replying to OpenCorona, 11, #354 of 582 🔗

This cheered us up tonight. I hope it does for you all too! Kevin James is one of us… https://youtu.be/wfGAktuU93s

6797 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to OpenCorona, #355 of 582 🔗

Very good, thanks.

Sod ‘Run’ though, take the guy who dobbed you in with you !

6624 wendyk, replying to wendyk, 6, #356 of 582 🔗


We are being managed now, not governed. Expect more nudging in the months to come.

6675 ▶▶ A13, replying to wendyk, 2, #357 of 582 🔗

This is an interesting article that compares surveillance methods used by different governments

6681 ▶▶▶ wendyk, replying to A13, #358 of 582 🔗

Thank you

6708 ▶▶▶ wendyk, replying to A13, #359 of 582 🔗

In an earlier thread, I wondered flippantly whether ankle monitors might be employed,as used for ex prisoners on probation. having read the article, it doesn’t seem so far fetched.

6694 ▶▶ Sceptic, replying to wendyk, 2, #360 of 582 🔗

Where is Liberty or other human rights groups? Or have they been captured too?

6742 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Sceptic, 1, #361 of 582 🔗

Cowering in terror along with most of the rest of the chattering classes. The were always pretty useless, but when the push came to the shove in this crisis, most of them bottled it in the most open and obvious way.

6794 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Sceptic, 1, #362 of 582 🔗

One has only to notice the progression of former ‘Liberty’ leaders into the corrupt arms of previous governments, to realise they were ‘captured’ long ago.

As in “The best way to control the opposition is to run it yourself.”.

6628 TJN, replying to TJN, 7, #363 of 582 🔗

Why did so many SE Asia countries get away so lightly with covid-19?

I find it disturbing that it is so often stated as FACT that it was because of their test-track-trace (TTT) procedures. Of course, this ‘fact’ then becomes full justification for the implementation of such measures here in the UK – which I fear might be one of the most insidious consequences of the covid-19 pandemic.

But is that ‘fact’ actually correct? Personally, I find it (literally) incredible. I can see that for a disease such as SARS1, which as I understand it was infectious only after symptoms had developed, that a TTT strategy may have some benefits. But covid-19? It is infectious for some five days before symptoms appear, a large number (the great majority?) of carriers are asymptomatic, and until some form of herd immunity appears it will be present at a very large scale within the population. So how on earth can TTT work in population centres?

Which brings me back to those SE Asia countries. Did TTT actually bring any appreciable benefits? But if not, then how did they get away so lightly?

To stray into pure speculation, for which I have absolutely no evidence. Could SE Asia peoples have already had some wide scale immunity? Perhaps through having been exposed to previous coronaviruses? Perhaps peoples with European descent have less immunity, and peoples from BAME backgrounds less again – which might in part explain why such peoples were more seriously affected?

I’m not trying to make points here, just ask genuine questions. If anyone can shed any light on this, or has seen it discussed anywhere, I’d be grateful to hear.

Fundamentally, I just can’t understand how TTT can be of much, if any, benefit with covid-19.

6644 ▶▶ Sally, replying to TJN, 5, #364 of 582 🔗

MSM right now will tell you that it’s because East Asians wear masks. I don’t believe that; the evidence on masks doesn’t support it.

You could be on to something with respect to existing immunity. A recent German study suggests that there may be cross-reactive immunity to coronaviruses and it mentions the possibility of regional differences:

Another factor often mentioned is the lower rates of obesity in those countries and better overall health. I guess that could be part of the answer.

In addition, it is difficult to make international comparisons without knowing exactly how much testing is going on, how deaths are being coded etc. Most Western countries seem to be tripping over themselves to find as many Covid-19 deaths as possible. Perhaps they’re more sensible and pragmatic in some of these Asian nations.

6684 ▶▶▶ TJN, replying to Sally, #365 of 582 🔗

Thanks for that link – I may have seen it, I’m not sure (it’s too medically technical for me!). But it does imply that the immune response to CV is very complicated, and as yet little understood.

Just as with TTT, I can’t believe that the relative absence of the disease in SE Asia can be explained by face masks or general health (after all, I assume they do get the flu and colds, and they do have old people). And unless they are being deliberately misleading, I can’t think the difference with the west is owing to testing/reporting strategy.

There must surely be something else going on, and the only thing I can think of is some inherent immunity – but I would be happily corrected or enlightened on this.

6868 ▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to TJN, 1, #366 of 582 🔗

I come from a country in SE Asia and one of those who was lucky not to have had Sars. The received wisdom is that the heat/humidity would kill the virus and that’s why we were spared by it.

I have lost track of what is going on in my home country but given the rampant corruption and overall inefficiency that’s common there I won’t be surprised if the figures coming from there are suspect.

Mask wearing is more common in East Asia however experts have long questioned their efficiency and I think wearing them is more of a placebo effect and to make people feel better about themselves even if its not really doing anything.

6722 ▶▶ Jane in France, replying to TJN, 6, #367 of 582 🔗

My son has been in Thailand since the beginning of January. In February, while covid19 was supposedly raging in Wuhan, he and his friends travelled to Cambodia, no problem. It was only much later that Thailand instituted a curfew. You can wander about Bangkok in the daytime but you can’t go anywhere else. There are people taking everybody’s temperature at the entrance to shopping malls and you have to wear a mask or you aren’t let in. Yet the virus must have been circulating in Thailand since at least the beginning of the year. People were moving around. There have been about 50 deaths attributed to covid so far, yet in 2017 over 80,000 Thais died from respiratory diseases. What is going on?

6724 ▶▶▶ TJN, replying to Jane in France, #368 of 582 🔗

Any ideas?

6726 ▶▶ swedenborg, replying to TJN, 1, #369 of 582 🔗

100 % agree. There most be some form of cross immunity at place. Japan has extraordinary low figures and no escalating epidemic. The infection seem to be 95% transmitted from asymptomatic to asymptomatic. No other way to explain the high antibody level detected together with thousands of asymptomatic carriers found worldwide every day hidden in the numbers of cases we see on worldometer every day.. TTT seem to be theatre for the masses. This is a futile task TTT so why are South Korea doing it? It could be political points of being seen to be effective but also more sinister explanation of control mechanism.

6748 ▶▶▶ TJN, replying to swedenborg, 1, #370 of 582 🔗

If there is indeed some form of residual immunity then this would be consistent with in western populations the apparent decline of the disease at a point where around 20% of the population tests +ve for antibodies. Which in itself would be a massive hole in the argument for a lockdown.

And yet we are still citing TTT as a way to deal with this, with all its cost and Orwellian potential. TTT just doesn’t make any sense to me in controlling this disease, either in SE Asia or here – but I’m happy to hear counter arguments.

6729 ▶▶ GLT, replying to TJN, 1, #371 of 582 🔗

A statistician has done a short analysis (link below) showing correlation on an international level with flu vaccination and covid. He is absolutely not anti-vaccine and points out that it problem remains more important to protect against flu but it might be part of the eventual explanation. He also has earlier blog posts looking at rates of metabolic disease and issues with blood sugar.


As someone who lived in Asia for over a decade, I certainly observed a healthier general relationship with food and nutrition. Family meals are still a social focus and are a high priority.

6730 ▶▶▶ GLT, replying to GLT, #372 of 582 🔗

Autocorrect! Probably not problem.

6750 ▶▶▶ TJN, replying to GLT, #373 of 582 🔗

Possibly there is a link between previous vaccinations (I’m also thinking MMR here) and susceptibility. And clearly there is an important link between healthy life style and how badly the disease attacks an individual.

Yet I can’t think this accounts for what we apparently see in much of SE Asia, even in combination with other factors.

6825 ▶▶▶ wendyk, replying to GLT, #374 of 582 🔗

Really interesting article ; being utterly hopeless at stats and mathematically challenged, I read it in trepidation, but was able to follow the author’s reasoning and data.

6629 Albie, replying to Albie, 18, #375 of 582 🔗

Is there any longer a reason why NHS staff are allowed to bypass queues at some supermarkets, and also have a designated hours solely for them when the rest of us have to queue up. As a non NHS keyworker, I could immediately see it was a populist move by the supermarkets. They clearly knew reduced opening hours and restricted numbers in store would be problematic for all key workers who were working the same hours their supermarkets were open yet chose to play to the gallery, knowing any dissenters would be pounced upon by the NHS worshipping masses. Now more and more people are returning to work this has to stop. Every customer should be treated equally.

6637 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Albie, 18, #376 of 582 🔗

They also get 20% discount in some stores and free data on their phones. Friend of ours is NHS nurse, she’s really embarrassed as they are all standing around at work with no patients.

6630 FrankiiB, replying to FrankiiB, 22, #377 of 582 🔗

As a liberal minded centrist, I have been horrified by how the pple have reacted with irrational panic and accepted the denial of rights and freedoms hard won over a hundred years. Thank you for your tireless research in bringing the truth to light.

Sadly, though I prefer logic to fear, I suspect we are now in a situation where the public need to be scared into seeing the truth before they or the government will change course.

The truth? That the lockdown claims more lives than it saves, that it risks muhh worse in the future and that, apart from thedirect health costs, Furlough free holidays at home are actually government loans and they’ve spentour pensions and future wages on them.

6691 ▶▶ Sceptic, replying to FrankiiB, 6, #378 of 582 🔗

The MSM and government have been successful in instilling irrational fear in the public through their relentless coverage of individual cases. This was the intention, and surprisingly it worked. I never thought so many people would fall for it.

6709 ▶▶ Mark, replying to FrankiiB, 4, #379 of 582 🔗

“Sadly, though I prefer logic to fear,”

We are living through perhaps the greatest object lesson on the central importance of that preference in history. Most of those who would have paid lip-service to it beforehand fell headlong into panic themselves.

Fear overwhelming reason has been the core driver of this whole situation.

6642 Cruella, replying to Cruella, 24, #380 of 582 🔗

I haven’t heard a thing from my daughters school this week. No plan, no recognition of the fact that they’ll all be off on full pay while my daughter self educates alone at home until September. I have no idea how she’ll sit her GCSEs next year. She’s been such a good student all these years, fully committed to the system and they’ve dropped her like a hot rock. Why can work places open up, people like me go to the hospital every day (no social distancing) but teachers can’t teach? Kids rarely get symptomatic covid19 and teachers can easily distance or wear a mask if they can cope with the Co2 retention. I mean, I only wear a face mask when providing personal care to a suspected or positive patient, so the risk to teachers is tiny. I just don’t understand why no one cares. How will people no longer furloughed go back to work if the schools stay shut? At least one parent must stay at home which will lead to job loss and poverty. Why are teachers a special case? I haven’t a great respect for them as a profession anyway but this is a complete abandonment of their duty as state employees at the expense of us all.

6651 ▶▶ Biker, replying to Cruella, 14, #381 of 582 🔗

i feel the same way about how our children have been dropped like a hot potato but i totally agree about your views on teachers. I have no doubt the people who want to stay lockdown and isolated haven’t the slightest care about children, even their own children. Mind you maybe a few months away from rabid lefty progressive teachers and their “common purpose” weird education might be a good thing. My son can do the work set for him each day in about half an hour and reckons it’s not much less than he’d normally get at school. I’m lucky my son is wise and has an interest in making something of himself despite the piss poor education he is being subjected to by the weird cult that seems to have taken over education. I’m thinking maybe i should just keep him off for ever

6652 ▶▶ nowhereman, replying to Cruella, 10, #382 of 582 🔗

This touches on a point I have been wondering about. How much social distancing is taking place within the hospital work environment? If, as you say, there isn’t much, then why all the fuss about it in other work settings? What is good enough for hospitals should be good enough elsewhere…

6653 ▶▶ Margaret, replying to Cruella, 13, #383 of 582 🔗

Most teachers have continued to go into work on a rota basis for children of key workers. (D-i-L is teacher, as was I once). As with many jobs, it’s the unions that are the key to unlocking schools and some of the teachers’ unions are very left wing and will do anything to cause havoc.
I have been amazed how supposedly “educated” people haven’t read/ listened to anything other than MSM (and particularly social media) to research what is actually happening. Independent thinking has virtually disappeared.

6655 ▶▶ Adele Bull, replying to Cruella, 7, #384 of 582 🔗

I am an SBM in primary schools. We want to go back, I am in work today. The unions and parents are the ones fighting opening. When we “closed” we stayed open for pupils of key workers etc. We should have had up to 50 pupils a day, on average we have had 7.

6802 ▶▶▶ Cruella, replying to Adele Bull, 7, #385 of 582 🔗

My daughters school actively dissuaded key workers (a term I loath) from using the service provided in lockdown, explaining that it would be little more than private study with minimal supervision. Both my neighbours are teachers, one primary, one secondary and they both bitterly resent having to go in to supervise children (both are avid pot bangers). My daughter doesn’t need childcare, but schooling (I won’t use the term education) in preparation for qualifications that the state have insisted are essential for her future. The schools and their staff are demonstrating a breathtaking lack of care and commitment to those they are paid to support.
To answer the question – the reason social distancing is defunct in hospitals is because you can’t care for people from 6 feet away and because the space won’t allow it AND because we abandoned the ancient theory of miasme as a cause for epidemics in the mid 19th century favouring germ theory. All of which allows us to use normal infection control policy for the care of infected patients except for when we undertake aerosol producing procedures. As to why what is good enough for hospitals isn’t for other sectors…. well, when you’ve convinced a nation of the need for something you have to follow it through, right? God forbid you look like a bunch of massive, toothy wazzocks.
Just a final point, the risk faced by health care workers in the treatment of this type of viral disease has been increased not only by a failure to provide PPE (although I’ve always had what I need) but also by the health, weight and demographic of the workforce. Once, nurses and doctors would of had fewer ailments and been fitter than their patients, not so anymore.
Anyway, must pop off now, that iced bun won’t eat itself.

6659 ▶▶ giblets, replying to Cruella, 6, #386 of 582 🔗

The Unions are just using it as a stick to beat up the Government, am sure if it was Labour in power they would be bending over backwards to help, though I am sure they would be after ‘hazard pay’

6660 ▶▶ Jane in France, replying to Cruella, 8, #387 of 582 🔗

Schools reopened in France on January 12th yesterday. I have just seen the school bus go up the road and stop as usual outside the council flats. I waited and watched till it left again. Usually there is standing room only after the bus leaves that stop, but today not one single person got on. These kids have been stuck in tiny flats for two months; if it was me I would be clamouring to get out. But no. Maybe they’ve all turned hikikomori like the Japanese. Before we were unlocked the government could have put out messages to the effect that young people in general have nothing to fear and they don’t pass on the virus. You would think a government would want the country to get back to normal as soon as possible. Instead of which, between every programme, right up to last week, they bigged up the R0; one person can infect three others and each of those can infect three others and so on. They must know that’s not true and in fact elsewhere they say that over eighty per cent of people infected will have either mild or no symptoms. So now schools are back and the bus is running, but there aren’t any pupils.
By the way, the person who runs the French covidinfos.net site says that it is doing well and has 10,000 visitors a day. Out of a population of 66 million. The school buses won’t be busy any time soon.

6784 ▶▶▶ Michel, replying to Jane in France, #388 of 582 🔗

It’s sad, isn’t it

6699 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Cruella, 5, #389 of 582 🔗

It’s rather frustrating trying to apply reason to a situation that is entirely based on irrationality.

6654 Oaks79, replying to Oaks79, 24, #390 of 582 🔗

All this talk of “new normal” is actually depressing me more than this pandemic is.

6692 ▶▶ Markus, replying to Oaks79, 12, #391 of 582 🔗

I wouldnt be bothered of this talk if I didnt know that majority of the people buy this crap and will accept the new “normal”. I live in Finland, city of 200 000 people and we have had 90 confirmed cases during these 2 months. Still people are in full panicmode, streets are empty. We will open schools again tomorrow and many people are too afraid to let their kids back there. People think it means pretty much automaticly that the kids will get sick, some of them die and if not the kids their parents most certainly will. It is beyond crazy how things are here (aswell).

6796 ▶▶▶ Michel, replying to Markus, 1, #392 of 582 🔗

…and we were thinking of moving to Finland…is there no sane country left in this world? 🙁

6876 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Michel, #393 of 582 🔗

Germany, apparently. 😂

6656 wendyk, replying to wendyk, 14, #394 of 582 🔗

A question for the Lockdown Sceptics: why are the UK’s borders still open and why are illegal entrants crossing the Channel allowed to enter for processing,as the Home Office puts it?

France is a safe country and the French have no real interest in preventing these increasing departures from Calais and elsewhere,despite the various accords signed between the UK and the French government.

A family member lives on the south coast and sees the Border Force cutter, now known locally as the pleasure cruiser, waiting off shore. Locals are not impressed.

Where is the logic in sanctioning/condoning illegal entry when the lockdown runs on and on; when many many people are facing a very uncertain future-loss of income, reduced employment and educational prospects if any, and we are constantly told that we must cooperate for the sake of all.

As a former Immigration Officer, I have a very cynical view of what seems to be a tacit operation of a double standard.

Opinions and comments would be welcome from the many contributors here.

6782 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to wendyk, 3, #395 of 582 🔗

Sounds as though you’re expecting integrity, transparency, and coherent functioning from our government !

I agree, it’s a quite blatant operation of a double standard.

6804 ▶▶▶ wendyk, replying to JohnB, #396 of 582 🔗

I abandoned that hope some time ago, but was hoping to expose what another facet of official doublethink is doing to us

6874 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to wendyk, 1, #397 of 582 🔗

Remember all those fruit pickers they were flying in from eastern Europe?

6657 Moomin, replying to Moomin, 6, #398 of 582 🔗

Good morning!
I just wondered if you could help with an analogy that’s been running through my head as I consider those who were told to self-isolate for 12 weeks as nothing seems to have been mentioned about them.
I was thinking that if you get diagnosed with a serious illness and the doctor says the only way to cure it is to, for example, remove an arm, and that this is an immediate cure. Wouldn’t you normally go for a second opinion? If the second opinion says, yes, that would be an immediate cure but there is another cure that would save your arm, but in the short term it will involve some suffering, yet you need to persevere and you’ll get through it. Wouldn’t you go for the second option? My point is, is this what the government has done? They’ve only had one opinion and they’ve chopped off the arm of the economy, the NHS, etc., yet if they’d have persevered with the mitigation measures, enduring the wrath of the media and those baying for a lockdown, they would’ve preserved the arm? I know it’s not a great analogy as the ‘arm’ of the economy, etc. will slowly grow back, but does it make sense? Can it be improved?
Back to my point of those advised to stay home for 12 weeks. Given that the advice and knowledge of the virus is constantly evolving, would it be unreasonable to suggest that a second opinion may be advisable since things are changing so fast and could this analogy be used somehow?
Anyway, thanks for any help!

6677 ▶▶ wendyk, replying to Moomin, 4, #399 of 582 🔗

You are right; someone, somewhere, should have the guts/honesty/integrity/moral courage to acknowledge that alternatives, being in short supply, should now be considered as a matter of urgency.

And your analogy is spot on.

It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails, admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something. Franklin D. Roosevelt

6664 giblets, replying to giblets, 27, #400 of 582 🔗

With the leak of possible treasury solutions to the HUGE levels of debt from the current crisis, it shows just how much the Government has painted themselves into a corner.

Looking at a bill between £300bn (best case) to £1.2trn , with an average around £5-600bn.

The Unions are more than happy to keep their workers at home on 80% pay (without needing to strike), many of the privatised businesses will hit the wall, no such problems when it is UKPLC paying the bills.
Taxes may have to rise, which will inhibit growth, with many workers having taken payment holidays, their need to pay these off will be hit, and most won’t be getting any bonus/ pay rise in the coming year.
Pay Freeze for public sector works…..just imagining the headlines…all the ‘key workers’, nurses especially (teachers also playing the martyr at the moment), after their ‘sacrifice’, they’ve guaranteed inflation busting pay rises for themselves for the next 5 years through the media as it is.
All the stuff that has built up over the last couple of months: operations, cancer treatments, mental health appointments etc etc etc etc….. the next battle is they are going to need huge investment to get waiting lists down….
a complete sh**shower whichever way you look at it.

6673 ▶▶ wendyk, replying to giblets, 8, #401 of 582 🔗

The road to hell is paved with daft intentions…

6689 ▶▶ karate56, replying to giblets, 13, #402 of 582 🔗

I’m pretty sure those public sector workers will be out in force, striking like Arthur Scargill, if they have a pay freeze for x number of years. The worst of them will be teachers, who no doubt will do everything in their power to not go into work due to the slightest whiff of a risk, at the behest of the unions. We’ve already seen, despite scientific evidence that children are not a serious risk to them, that they are painting the image that they are doomed to die if they so much as look at a child. My wife is a key worker, but my daughters school has effectively begged us not to send her to them – they offer nothing but a shit version of a holiday club, in their own opinion – so we have accepted their offer to not send her. It is possible to teach the limited number of school attending children during lockdown, but they don’t offer it. I wonder why.
I imagine if coronavirus disappeared tomorrow that the level of resistance to work would still be astronomical, just for unions and politicians to keep scoring political points. I’ve never had much respect for public sector workers, who from my personal experience seem to think those in the private sector are lavished with world beating pay rises and final salary pensions and union representation (not that I want it). My average pay rises are embedded the low level noise when compared to any public servant I’ve ever met, yet I still perform a role equally as important as key workers for the economy and society.

6872 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to karate56, 5, #403 of 582 🔗

As a key worker helping to keep supply chains running , but one who works for the private sector (my neighbour does basically the same job for the sainted NHS and gets paid AT LEAST three times what I do), I concur.
Public sector workers now have quadruple layers of protection from being fired, plus higher wages than the rest of us.
1) cast iron furlough, on full pay
2) job security (at least for the next year anyway)
3) unions and lawyers and god knows who else frothing at the mouth to defend them and keep them in a job even if they’re terrible at it
4) lovely pensions and payouts if they eventually do get fired

So basically we find ourselves in a situation where state employees are sat there on our dime, whilst we all get fired ?!

6902 ▶▶▶▶ karate56, replying to Farinances, 2, #404 of 582 🔗

The other sad thing is I don’t rate any of them. A lot of them, doctors and nurses aside (although there are many truly diabolical medical professionals), are utterly shit at their jobs, or not qualified to perform them. Modern teachers are a classic example, in my experience and almost everyone who works for a council. In fact, I’m being generous those are just two examples from a huge list of shitness.

6906 ▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to karate56, #405 of 582 🔗

*claps like a seal* 😆

6728 ▶▶ IanE, replying to giblets, 4, #406 of 582 🔗

And still they claim we will have a V or U shaped recovery. Idiocy is under-stating the case.

6665 Albie, replying to Albie, 21, #407 of 582 🔗

Some Arriva buses in my area (still on Sunday timetables) have taken to displaying “bus full due to social distancing” on the front. They are limiting the amount of passengers on. This message rotates with a “thank you key workers” message which must be a real tonic for those keyworkers stood at the bus stop with their hands out to no avail as the bus sails past. They do realise that some people who then have to wait half an hour for the next bus (or infinitely in theory) will be “our NHS heroes” needing to get to work?? Oh dear. Haven’t thought that through have you, Arriva? Additionally, early indications are that this measure has unsurprisingly gone down a treat with pro lockdown acquaintances who have no need to travel. Oh, if those travellers who took photos of a packed tube were so appalled then why were they on board? Surely it would be their moral obligation to alight in case they spread their filthy germs to so many other commuters.

6710 ▶▶ Morris_Day, replying to Albie, 6, #408 of 582 🔗

They are using the Harry Potter World buses as special NHS only transport around me, I shit you not.

6712 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Morris_Day, 3, #409 of 582 🔗

Magic !

6666 Andy Riley, replying to Andy Riley, 13, #410 of 582 🔗

I found this page on contact tracing from PHE.

“When we talk about “close contact” it’s important to point out that we’re not looking for people the person may have passed on the street or in a shop, as the risk in these situations is very low. A close contact involves either face to face contact or spending more than 15 minutes within 2 metres of an infected person.”

Isn’t this a clear contradiction to the 2 metres advice?
Am I missing something?

6668 ▶▶ Andy Riley, replying to Andy Riley, 4, #411 of 582 🔗

i.e. the 15 minutes bit seems to have got lost in the public messaging.

6685 ▶▶ giblets, replying to Andy Riley, 3, #412 of 582 🔗

Totally, I pointed this out to someone the other day, they went very quiet, then started going about them coughing and sneezing in your face…

6747 ▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to giblets, 14, #413 of 582 🔗

The message has certainly got lost round here. I went for a lonesome walk yesterday and met just one man. He looked at me in horror, asked me which path I was taking as he wanted to avoid passing by other people, and then dived into the hedge as I just smiled politely but didn’t stop walking. He then fell into the drainage ditch (I kid you not) and refused all offers of help, even If I wore gloves and held out a stout stick for him to grasp and pull himself out. It would be funny if it wasn’t so pathetic!

6760 ▶▶▶▶ paulito, replying to CarrieAH, 5, #414 of 582 🔗

Bet he was wearing a magic mask as well. If masks provided any protection, surely there would be no need to go to such lengths to avoid passing another human being on the Street. Noticed more of those welder type visor things recently. The only protection these could possibly afford is if someone came right up to you and spat or coughed in your face. Ludicrous.

6773 ▶▶▶▶▶ wendyk, replying to paulito, 4, #415 of 582 🔗

Being worn by staff in 2 local shops. The bomb disposal look.

6859 ▶▶▶▶▶ Jane in France, replying to paulito, 2, #416 of 582 🔗

The lady selling cheese at the market this morning had her mask on hand just in case. Now hygiene is not this lady’s strong suit. If you eat her cheese on a regular basis nothing will get you. The mask was lying among the cheese, she picked it up to show me and it has to be said it didn’t look particularly clean. I shudder to think what she would give herself if she wore that all day long, though as I say, her cheese probably makes her immune to anything.

6786 ▶▶▶▶ wendyk, replying to CarrieAH, 4, #417 of 582 🔗

An elderly man came to a confused halt as I approached him this morning; he was trying to work out where I was likely to go, before going for broke and stepping into the road.

Having assured him that I’m not a danger to public health, I waved and carried on. He looked embarassed and raised a hand.

6856 ▶▶ Jane in France, replying to Andy Riley, 1, #418 of 582 🔗

I had this stupid virus at the beginning of March. The day before symptoms appeared I had a drink with a couple of friends, then a cup of tea with a couple more (see the social life I used to lead), this is in France, so we kissed each other, so there I was in close contact with four people when I was already affected by the virus and not one of them fell ill.

6687 Back To Normal, replying to Back To Normal, 9, #419 of 582 🔗

I have an idea for a t-shirt design. We take the familiar KEEP CALM AND CARRY ON design and append the words WITHOUT SOCIAL DISTANCING.
Could someone with the software/expertise create this and send it to Toby?
I think it will help promote our thinking in a polite and appealing way to the not-so-sceptical public. And it will allow us to mingle with each other in public confidently knowing we aren’t offending anyone.
I came up with this idea while making a non-essential 100-mile trip down the M6 this morning, but that’s another story.

6725 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to Back To Normal, 6, #420 of 582 🔗

Great idea. Off now for a totally *necessary* visit to my shop to meet up with my business partner so we can work out how the hell we extricate ourselves from this mess.

6731 ▶▶ Fiat, replying to Back To Normal, 13, #421 of 582 🔗

How about a Covid-19 2020 Tour T-shirt. Dates on the back, e.g. April 3 : Local Park; April 7 : Local Park; April 9: Supermarket; April 11 : Local Park, etc. etc. ad nauseum

6836 ▶▶ Back To Normal, replying to Back To Normal, #422 of 582 🔗

Come on folks. Is there anyone out there who can help get this t-shirt idea going, at least with the graphic design bit?
I think it could be a game changer if there are people wearing the t-shirt and they are going about their business like normal human beings (i.e. without any social distancing), and the rest of the public see that they can do normal stuff without fear, then surely the rest of the public will have to say “I want to do that, this social distancing is bonkers”.

6885 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Back To Normal, #423 of 582 🔗

I made a few suggestions on an earlier thread (sorry can’t help with the production of such as not my line of business but):

‘Freedom is in Peril, Defend it with all your Might’ or

Edvard Munchs ‘The Scream’ (sums up how I feel atm)

6688 Oaks79, replying to Oaks79, 4, #424 of 582 🔗

75k is their middle of the range forecast, if there is a slow recovery it could be as high as 150k


6755 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Oaks79, #425 of 582 🔗

Average annual UK deaths is what, around 600k ?

6865 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Oaks79, #426 of 582 🔗

Doesn’t a bad flu season get 80k?

6896 ▶▶▶ Oaks79, replying to Farinances, #427 of 582 🔗

This is 75k deaths from suicide, drug and alcohol abuse during this pandemic

6905 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Oaks79, 3, #428 of 582 🔗

Oh ok. Wow. It They said 150k in total.before they might wanna revise that up. 😣
Funny isn’t it. The covid deaths were overestimated. (And are now being inflated with false reporting)
The lockdown deaths were UNDERESTIMATED and are still being downplayed

6693 Oaks79, replying to Oaks79, 3, #429 of 582 🔗

French school kids having to sit in boxes marked out in chalk, hope this is fake. Depressing seeing this


6769 ▶▶ tonyspurs, replying to Oaks79, 18, #430 of 582 🔗

I was a foster carer for 20 years working with young traumatized children ,many of them had been socially isolated from birth until they came into the system, the emotional and mental damage this causes is huge obviously they had other issues that most children fortunately don’t experience but socially isolating children even at this level is cruel and borderline abuse

6809 ▶▶▶ GLT, replying to tonyspurs, 8, #431 of 582 🔗

Where are the children’s charities who should be advocating on their behalf?

6700 karate56, replying to karate56, 20, #432 of 582 🔗

Good to see those “in charge” of parks and public spaces telling us to not travel any distance to them and also that people will be told to move on if things become a concern. This despite the government giving us carte blanche to now go where the hell we like, sit where we like, and for how long we like for exercise and leisure purposes.
The jobsworth UK gestapo just cant resist it. Its a pity then that if I go to a public park and anyone tells me to move on or that they think I’m too close to someone else, they haven’t got a leg to stand on. I’ll try and eek out as much fury from them as possible as I simply pretend that they don’t exist or I politely tell them to f*(k off.
I really do hope that scores of people use this newly granted luxurious freedom to wind these pricks up and do what they’re legally entitled to do – be free. There is no law, no edict, no directive, that stops people using a park or public space, for whatever purpose they see fit, that doesn’t break social distances rules. If I wish to travel from Lands End to Whitley Bay, just to stretch my legs, I’m going to do it.

6738 ▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to karate56, 8, #433 of 582 🔗

Even if there were a law banning free association anyone who believes in freedom has a duty to defy it

6706 TJN, replying to TJN, 14, #434 of 582 🔗

Apologies if this has already been posted, but Episode 7 of Perspectives on the Pandemic appeared last night. I haven’t watched it yet, but here’s a note at the start to say that the series has been targeted for censorship, and thus that viewers should download and share as widely as they can.

Below is a list of the previous episodes, from which it appears that Episode 2 – the first interview with Knut Wittkowski – is no longer available on You Tube (it is now on Facebook, with transcripts available online).

I watched that episode a couple of times, and it seems to me to have just being a scientist with 35 years’ experience in the subject giving his legitimate view, which didn’t tie in with that of the mainstream. I say legitimate, I think much of what he said has turned out to be correct.

This is sinister.

6720 ▶▶ Mark, replying to TJN, 4, #435 of 582 🔗

It is hugely concerning, and reinforces the need to support alternatives to the big platforms, that support old fashioned commitments to actual free speech rather than the new “free speech except for that bad stuff that I don’t like” that is becoming the norm nowadays, wherever they can be found.

6735 ▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to TJN, 6, #436 of 582 🔗

But it’s also encouraging. The Washington Post has put out a video supposedly ‘debunking’ the Bakersfield doctors which has got 4.3k dislikes from looking just now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59JwT08mhFI
They’ve tried to censor these guys but they keep on getting posted. After years and years of me being concerned that people are being hoodwinked by, amongst others, MSM and Big Pharma, I see that people are waking up. Episode Two may be missing but the others are there and sometimes the algorithms are just cocked up. I constantly see on forums like this that people such as the Bakersfield Docs have been censored and they haven’t. Not completely. And if we keep on crying that they have when they haven’t people will call us unfounded ‘conspiracy theorists’. It is sinister (as post above says) which means we have to be all the more careful not to post false accusations which undermine the credibility of those of us who see a not so hidden agenda.

6756 ▶▶▶ TJN, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 1, #437 of 582 🔗

Ha, good one on the Washington Post.

But I doubt the censorship on Perspectives is merely a mistake – I’ve been wondering when it might come, and it does claim this on the latest episode. It would be consistent with what we are hearing from elsewhere.

And certainly the concept of free speech hasn’t exactly emerged unscathed so far from all this.

6751 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to TJN, 6, #438 of 582 🔗

There’s one thing I don’t understand. Youtube is just a video hosting platform, but it censors what gets shown. Bitchute is a video hosting platform but doesn’t censor what gets shown (..?) so why do people even bother with Youtube? Let Youtube ban the video and when the blank screen comes up, just find it on Bitchute. It doesn’t mean that one day the ISPs themselves won’t start blocking access, but at the moment, Bitchute is surely just as good as Youtube..?

6761 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Barney McGrew, 9, #439 of 582 🔗

The issue is really about access to information and ability to spread information and opinions.

Those who seek to control information flows claim it’s not like government censorship, it’s just individual companies policing what is on their own “property”. Ad of course the old argument is that there is no point to free speech if nobody can hear you.

The pro-censorship attitude of companies like Youtube, Twitter etc is certainly only a problem because they are so successful. The best response is certainly to promote the use of alternatives that do not censor, but for such providers it’s always going to be difficult to get large when they are small, and the larger they get the more pressure the information controllers apply to force them to toe the line.

Everyone who supports concepts like “hate speech” and “no platforming” is part of the problem, – those are the basic mechanisms that are used to push censorship.

6770 ▶▶▶ Victoria, replying to Barney McGrew, 2, #440 of 582 🔗

agree. vote with your feet

6989 ▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to Barney McGrew, 1, #441 of 582 🔗

Bitchute ought to be as good as YouTube, but for your average Joe, it isn’t. Yet.

It doesn’t work seamlessly on a mobile or tablets like YT does. It doesn’t integrate well with other social media like YT does. As a platform it’s still very immature and has a long way to go before it can hope be in the same league as YT.

One day, though, hopefully. They’ll have to work out how to make it wash its face though: Either they yield to what big-spending advertisers want, or they charge us a monthly fee, or they set up an equivalent to superchats and take a cut. None of those is necessarily ideal and they all carry with them their own problems.

6991 ▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to Barney McGrew, 1, #442 of 582 🔗

BTW I think ISPs in Australia and NZ already block Bitchute.


6707 Mark, 25, #443 of 582 🔗

One of the things a lot of people out there are forgetting is the squabbling to come about who gets to pay for all the costs incurred.

People tend to dismiss it as a job for the government to help people out, which postpones most of the problem during the emergency itself (though the nature of government means the process will be incompetently managed, full of fraud, and lots of deserving cases will fall through the cracks). But in the end all this spending has to be paid for, unless you believe, contrary to all experience, that we live in a world where you can get something for nothing without taking it from someone else.

Ultimately that means taxation, spending cuts, or inflation. Policy choices determine which it is, which just determines who pays for it and how. Magic money tree believers say we can just “borrow” it by creating money, which is feasible for those with their own currency (EU members get to go cap in hand to Germany, which is another story), but ultimately there must be limits to borrowing in that way and it just moves the problems down the line.

The point is that we are facing paying huge amounts in an environment of economic difficulty. The scale of the problem is going to be being driven home just as the “postponed unemployment” currently hidden by the furlough scheme starts to be revealed and government revenues remain low long after the lockdown itself becomes no longer a factor. The political fights over who ends up paying are going to be vicious on a level we have not experienced since the 1970s, I suspect.

Buckle up, and remind people at every opportunity that these are costs of the panic response, not costs of the disease. Those responsible will be desperate to avoid that truth becoming widely recognised.

6717 Markus, replying to Markus, 3, #444 of 582 🔗

This isnt new but still relevant. I show this clip to everyone that thinks news and media is free, independent and unbiased. Eyeopener for some…


6816 ▶▶ A Meshiea, replying to Markus, #445 of 582 🔗

Actually quite disturbing.

6733 Mark, replying to Mark, 27, #446 of 582 🔗

Government minister admits to being an irrational coward:

Grant Shapps says he would not get on crowded bus or tube

We’ve been told that there is no epidemic at the moment, because the disease prevalence is below what is required to count as one. We know the deaths and illness caused by this disease are comparable to flu, and that it’s only remotely dangerous to a very small minority, who should by now be properly protected. The idea that this disease should materially affect ordinary day to day behaviour is flat out irrational.

Shapps has just demonstrated he is part of the problem.

6744 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Mark, 1, #447 of 582 🔗

Come back Selwyn Gummer!

6813 ▶▶▶ Edna, replying to Barney McGrew, 1, #448 of 582 🔗

Or, at least, his daughter!

6992 ▶▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to Edna, #449 of 582 🔗

Uma Gummer?

6839 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Mark, 2, #450 of 582 🔗

Anyway, of course he would not – what is his givenment (sic!) car and driver for if not to obey his Master’s travel whims?!

6759 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 5, #451 of 582 🔗

First several cases of Covid-19 7th January in Ohio


As reported by La Provence on May 10, 2020, a study reviewed 466 million prescriptions written since the coronavirus pandemic began in France, show a huge spike in prescriptions written for hydroxychloroquine, an anti-malaria drug. As an example, during late March 2020, over 10,000 people were prescribed hydroxychloroquine in Marseille, France alone.
The study also noted that most people who were granted access to hydroxychloroquine across France were from higher socio-economic groups and were women.
These are stunning figures probably following the advice of Prof Raoult,Marseille, early in the pandemic. This is the drug BBC don’t want us to talk about and costs 10 cents a day, not for Big Pharma. It is most likely massive prescribed in Russia,Middle East and India and Pakistan.Interesting to see their death rates.

6845 ▶▶ Jane in France, replying to swedenborg, 2, #452 of 582 🔗

However, if you have G6PD deficiency, ie lack a particular enzyme which is indeed lacking in about 20 per cent of sub-saharan populations, probably because it makes people less susceptible to malaria, then hydroxychloroquine can lead to haemolysis, ie dissolution of red blood cells, which makes you feel as though you are about to suffocate. This is in fact what happens in severe covid cases. See Dr Wodarg’s latest article in Off Guardian. Dr Raoult in Marseille seems to have treated numerous patients very successfully with HCQ; I wonder if they were all non G6PD deficient. Dr Wodarg worries that treatment with HCQ might have something to do with the large number of African Americans who are dying of covid, and worries that ongoing trials of HCQ do not take this enzyme deficiency into account.

6878 ▶▶▶ swedenborg, replying to Jane in France, 1, #453 of 582 🔗

Correct.But can explain the remarkable figures from Eastern Europe,Russia,Turkey,Mid East and India where this G6PD deficiency is a less problem.Also the doctor in Bronx treaating 1700 pateinets with chloroquine in the Jewisch community with no deaths and hardly any hospitalisation. Of course prescribed with caution but a dirt cheap drug 40 years old readily available at the beginning of the pandemic and with some evidence of effect why not use it? We all know a double blinded control study would be the final answer but such a study takes several months. Big Pharma did not want that so instructed MSM BBC to dismiss the drug.

6881 ▶▶▶▶ Jane in France, replying to swedenborg, 1, #454 of 582 🔗

Yes, that would explain the low death rate in Eastern Europe and Dr Zelenko’s too, if it was mainly Jewish people he was treating.

6766 Mark, replying to Mark, 8, #455 of 582 🔗

“But fresh guidelines issued by the College of Policing and the National Police Chiefs’ Council urges officers to only enforce what is written in law and that “government guidance is not enforceable, for example two-metre distancing, avoiding public transport or the wearing of face coverings in enclosed spaces”.

The advice, set out in a document published on Wednesday after being sent out to forces on Tuesday night, follows updated coronavirus legislation coming into force.”


A not insignificant part of the problem of making stupid laws to govern what people can do and then adding to it by making confusing and misleading government statements that don’t make clear what is advice and what is law nobody has a clue what the f they actually are and aren’t allowed to do!

6771 ▶▶ Ron Bunting, replying to Mark, 6, #456 of 582 🔗

A very good point. Laws ,when they are mooted, must be debated and approved in the correct setting. Not arbitrarily made up by some unelected bureaucrat who has just watched a news item on the BBC which had been describing the dark days of ragnorok according to Neil Ferguson.

6811 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Ron Bunting, 4, #457 of 582 🔗

As Lord Sumption pointed out two days ago:

“the problem about using law as your instrument is that law requires definition, exact definition, and it works in categories. So, if you do this not voluntarily but compulsorily you are bound to have laws which make perfect sense in some contexts and uh not in others. The problem about law is that it excludes common sense. Now the Prime Minister has said in the House of Commons this afternoon, that he trusts the British to use their common sense, but you can’t say to a policeman: “you must arrest somebody or fine them if he is [not] using common sense and not otherwise”. This, the whole legal approach, invites a collection of completely arbitrary rules unrelated to the underlying purpose of the regulations and you couldn’t have a more perfect illustration of that than the incredibly complex, utterly arbitrary distinctions contained in the government’s document this afternoon distinguishing between meeting one person and meeting two people, between meeting one person in your back garden and meeting one person in the street outside your front garden, I mean, these are illustrations of the kind of ridiculous distinctions that you get when instead of resorting to common sense uh you resort to law.”


6820 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Mark, 2, #458 of 582 🔗

Worth pointing out here that the exact same arguments apply to speed limits. Speed limits are inherently stupid considered in isolation, in the sense that they are not flexible in response to circumstances. What is a safe speed in one set of conditions is not a safe speed on the same road at another time of day or in different traffic, weather or lighting conditions, or for a different car or driver, or for a driver in a different personal condition, etc.

We make speed limits primarily to make life easier for the police. Instead of having to prove that someone was actually endangering other people, they can just punish people for going over an essentially arbitrary set speed.

And the motivation for this is fear. People fear that if we do not allow this structure of control, there will be mass slaughter.

Different people will respond to this in different ways – some (most) will agree that the danger of increased deaths and injury justifies it, others won’t. But the principles are the same.

What the government has been trying to do is devise a set of speed limits to govern all human interactions that could theoretically involve disease transmission.

6774 ▶▶ Poppy, replying to Mark, 6, #459 of 582 🔗

I was just about to post this! Now even the police has given up, I really think it’s as clear a message as any that we really must use common sense now, and that the gov is relying on some people still being scared to go out/wanting to be morally superior so that everyone doesn’t go rushing outside at once. Also, the gov will be relying on the fact that Joe Public isn’t going to go on gov.uk and start looking at statutes. He will be listening mostly to government guidance which is disseminated through the media, not looking at black letter law. The former is where the 2m rule lies but it’s ultimately unenforceable and not even technically illegal.

6806 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Poppy, 7, #460 of 582 🔗

The problem with this kind of confusion is that it is going to lead to an awful lot of very ugly confrontations, both with police and with covid derangement syndrome sufferers.

Laws should be clear and simple, and government shouldn’t allow advice to be confused with law.

6768 Ron Bunting, 15, #461 of 582 🔗

The article concerning the mental health of the German population whilst under lockdown is relevent to all nations enforcing a lockdown . I’m approaching my 7th decade and I’ve experienced some real political crap in my life but this lockdown has to beat all to the bottom of the worlds public urinal .
Here in Australia I watched dumbfounded as our idiotic PM Morrison straight out told us that the nation was going to shut down,that Some people might lose their jobs and that we will have to learn to live within a “surveillance society’ .. We no longer have an industrial base as successive political leaders have taken the 30 pieces of Chinese silver and sold us out. This of course means that we will no longer be able to trade our way out of the financial hole that was just dug for us. and , because the Australian government is asking for an enquiry into the virus and it’s origins,China is openly threatening us.

6772 ScuzzaMan, replying to ScuzzaMan, 3, #462 of 582 🔗

Look, this wasn’t a mistake. It wasn’t a consequence of “relying on inaccurate data” – that is totally reversing cause and effect. The data is cherry-picked, as much as that is possible given the woeful state of it, to support the policy which has already been formulated! . Data supporting said policy is faithfully reproduced at full volume by the watermelon media and data that does not support the policy goes down the memory hole.
This entire episode is a deliberate attack on the already compromised foundations of western civilisation, including the rule of law, the trammeling of central power, and the right of individuals to judge for themselves what risks they will and will not endure.
(for the comprehensionally challenged, that is not an argument for a grand conspiracy or a claim that corona viruses don’t exist, so please sex and travel)
See also the war on Iraq for the same pattern of imperial over-reach supported by mass media malfeasance whereby all contrary intelligence is excluded by definition.
Arthur Silber also described it very well here: http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/2019/05/how-many-damn-fucking-times-do-i-have.html and here: http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/2007/08/you-too-can-and-should-be-intelligence.html
Never attribute to bad intelligence what is a demonstrably decades-long policy.

6810 ▶▶ wendyk, replying to ScuzzaMan, 6, #463 of 582 🔗

Having recently watched ‘Shock and Awe’- clunky but interesting, despite Woody Harrelson’s heavy handed performance, I was struck, once again, by how the cherry picking of intelligence sources before the invasion of Iraq resonates with today’s suspension of normal life based on equally questionable grounds.

However, in 2003, public opposition to the disastrous invasion was widespread, vociferous and crossed all political and social boundaries, whereas now the public is overwhelmingly compliant , unquestioning and keen to signal its virtuous obedience by mindless clapping and fearful irrational behaviour.

How we’ve changed, in 17 years.

6858 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to wendyk, 3, #464 of 582 🔗

The difference being of course that people are now afraid for their own necks rather than those of soldiers and foreigners.

6775 Oaks79, 2, #465 of 582 🔗

What does everyone think the plan is with the devolved administrations, what I mean is why has the PM let them go their own way after we went into lockdown together, surely this will give them a stronger call for independence, no ?

6779 swedenborg, 11, #466 of 582 🔗


Between 21st-24th April 2700 persons were randomly tested with PCR test self administered at home
Representative of the whole of Sweden and taken from healthy people at home invited to the study. 0,9 % of the population nationally and 2,3% in Stockholm were PCR pos. That is active infection and almost all asymptomatic. Translated to the population would be 90000 cases of infection in that time interval. The official confirmed pandemic Covid-19 cases in Sweden has been 27000 for the WHOLE pandemic. During 3 days it was estimated 3 times more infections than for all officially detected cases in the country.
How can anyone doubt that we have an enormous asymptomatic spread of infection which should have serious consequences for our response to this mostly hidden pandemic. This is unstoppable.

6783 AidanR, replying to AidanR, -4, #467 of 582 🔗

Is it just me who is a bit concerned/irritated that the emergent movement to push back against all this nonsense is being spearheaded by the AntiVax/5G bampots? I’d very much like to get involved in the pushback (beyond my donation to Mr Dolan’s action) but I don’t want to get into bed with the tinfoil hat and broken keyboard fraternity.


6808 ▶▶ guy153, replying to AidanR, 3, #468 of 582 🔗

I guess you just need to get involved to dilute the bampots then 🙂 Not sure how accurate your impression is but the “enemy” will of course be trying to promote that characterization.

6812 ▶▶ Mark, replying to AidanR, 3, #469 of 582 🔗

Well someone has to do it.

Though what does it tell us that “your kind” have utterly failed to put up any effective resistance to this nonsense, despite being in the vast, vast majority?

6841 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Mark, #470 of 582 🔗

Spot on Mark.

6883 ▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to Mark, -1, #471 of 582 🔗

Practically no-one has put up any effective resistance yet. My view is that effective resistance does not start from a place where a big part of your platform is easily discredited and discounted by the MSM where we’d need cut-through to gain a critical mass of public support.

I was there for the battles over GSM phone masts 20 years ago, and I’ve been there for umpteen battles around privacy and liberty. Experience shows the public are turned off from your campaign by the slightest whiff of weirdo, and I’m afraid for the purposes of the MSM narrative, the numpties setting fire to 5G masts count as weirdos, as do the anti-vaxxers who still cleave to the widely derided Andrew Wakefield and – God help us – anti-semite David Icke.

We can and should get involved and exercise our rights, and make our voices heard, I’m just concerned that ‘we’ should not let ourselves get lumped in with the ones at whom the media will immediately point and laugh.

6893 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to AidanR, #472 of 582 🔗

This is not a campaign, and resistance to the lockdown has not yet reached the level of popular awareness where you can afford to be so picky about your company, I think. Though it is a good sign that people like you are starting to show up to call for silencing the taboo voices – means its achieved a degree of significance. Here and now, though, the main priority is still for people just to understand that they are not alone, and to have a place to exchange information widely suppressed or unnoticed elsewhere.

And indeed your whole approach is rendered questionable by its history. We have censorship in news media and in social media predicated on structures and attitudes designed to exclude exactly the kinds of people you sneer at, and now surprise surprise they are being used to suppress dissent from WHO guidelines etc etc. Turns out those hippies who said that if you let some people be censored sooner or later you will be censored yourself actually had a point.

Yours is a tired old song, and it’s the one that has excluded many of those few willing to stand up to this coronapanic from mainstream outlets. But you’re singing it here a bit early, I think. Though obviously it’s up to Toby whether or not he listens to your siren song.

6908 ▶▶▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to Mark, -1, #473 of 582 🔗

You make some good points Mark – particularly that this thing has to get off the ground first.

I don’t think ‘my entire approach’ can be validated or otherwise, since the counterfactual doesn’t exist. We have no way of knowing how much more privacy we’d have lost and liberty we’d have lost without those people who have fought for it over the last 20 years. No-one can say.

What I can say is that the MSM narrative went away from us as soon as fringe elements started to dominate the message, and here we have that right out of the gate.

It’s possible that this won’t get off the ground at all if fringe voices dominate, brandishing junk science and burning down phone masts. That’s what concerns me and if it doesn’t concern you, I’d ask you just to give it a bit of thought, because I reckon it should.

6921 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to AidanR, #474 of 582 🔗

You are correct on the counterfactual point, of course.

My observation is that the long battle against mass immigration was lost because people were allowed to create a new taboo (“racism”) and then exclude from the discourse people who believed in anything that could be portrayed as connected to that taboo, or anyone who could be smeared as associated with it in any way.

And there have been many other similar examples of positions lost through the creation of taboos followed by smearing moderates by association with them. And now we have the example of those attitudes used to justify and to enable censorship of dissent from coronapanic. My point is that the whole idea of taboo subjects and people is the problem. Now you might well say that the taboos already exist, and that’s true. I just kick back against the attempt to exclude people and to apply smears by association. It’s one of the main mechanisms that enforces conformism in modern society.

But obviously it’s not me you have to persuade, it’s Toby.

6958 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to Mark, #475 of 582 🔗

Hmm… I see your point now. I’ll have a little think.

A broader point made above, which I agree with, is that we should be careful not to bring other issues into this. Climate change is the example given. It’s something many of us have strong opinions on, and parallels can certainly be drawn regarding cavalier use of data and models, and of authoritarianism dressed up as the common good, but it’s not germane and including it on a roster of grievances is a distraction and a recipe for disunity. For me the same goes for antivax and 5G.

As to convincing Toby, I’d be delighted if I were to do so, but it’s not my objective. I simply posed a rhetorical question to see what people are thinking.

6973 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to AidanR, #476 of 582 🔗

It’s difficult associating with people whose views you find annoying or offensive, for sure. And it would be best to try to avoid going over these tiresome old disputes again here, agreed, from Brexit to climate change.

And admittedly, if mainstream credibility is a major concern then you face the choice of fighting the prevailing exclusionist cultural mores and probably losing a lot of that credibility, or going along with them.

Part of the problem is that there is a clear nexus between the issue that is probably of primary concern to you and to me here (resisting the coronapanic) and the concerns of people worried about big pharma, vaccines (a clear agenda issue here), etc.

7003 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to Mark, #477 of 582 🔗

If the movement against the coronapanic is to have any impact, then mainstream credibility has to be a major concern, doesn’t it?

I’m not sure there’s a clear nexus between these issues.. there are dozens of other issues concerning freedom and the economy, many of which I would advocate for, but they’re not relevant here. They’re a distraction.

Either way, I’m going to London for beer in the park at the weekend. I just hope I have 5G service 🙂

7084 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to AidanR, #478 of 582 🔗

🙂 I suspect not all the company will be to your liking….

By a nexus I mean that if, for instance, you are concerned about vaccination then you are clearly going to be drawn to resist this coronapanic, given that vaccination is one of the main promised/threatened “solutions” we are constantly presented with..

7441 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to AidanR, #479 of 582 🔗

Err, no. The MSM has shown it’s colours, and will never give credibility to people opposing the worldwide panic agenda. Until/unless it suits them.

Once again, there are other issues; they are a distraction; and you introduced them.

7437 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to AidanR, #480 of 582 🔗

You’re more brainwashed by the MSM than you think. Have you ever read the vast numbers of doctors and scientists who oppose vaccination ? Even if you disagree, repeating MSM labels rather than agreeing to disagree says a lot.
Are you in favour of rolling out 5G without any safety studies ?

(You’re the one who brought other issues into this.).

7431 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to AidanR, #481 of 582 🔗

No dissenting voices at all (bar Hitchens) were permitted on the the MSM for 6 weeks. Maybe that was the fault of the ‘tin foil hat brigade’ ? Yeah, right.

The degree of control the MSM holds over the majority of people is one of the biggest, if not the biggest thing, that needs to change. All you seem to want to do is increase division. Though possibly you are a paid disinformant – rolling out Wakefield (vindicated by the CDC whistleblower Thompson) and Icke (anti-semite ? fuck off.) is a frequent characteristic.

“I was there for the battles over GSM phone masts 20 years ago, and I’ve been there for umpteen battles around privacy and liberty.”.

Get you. I was doing CND stuff 50-60 years ago, and don’t usually feel the need to drag it up on public forums.

“We can and should get involved and exercise our rights, and make our voices heard,”

This sentiment is correct. Your mission now is to effect this, without pissing like-minded people off, or worrying about what the totally bought-and-paid-for MSM say.

6840 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to AidanR, #482 of 582 🔗

Sod off with the ‘bampots’, Aidan. Whatever the fuck they are.

6857 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to JohnB, 1, #483 of 582 🔗

Maybe baRmpots 😂

6931 ▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Farinances, #484 of 582 🔗


6879 ▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to JohnB, #485 of 582 🔗

Never read any Scottish literature, John?

Nutters, loonies, headbangers… take your pick.

The fact is the 5G and anti-vax* arguments are easily discounted and discredited in the mainstream narrative. It would distract and detract from the core message about liberty and the economy, and effectively neuter our message of resistance.

* I have no opinion on the efficacy of vaccines, but would be vehemently against any kind of mandatory vaccination.

7446 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to AidanR, #486 of 582 🔗

Was unaware there is any Scottish literature … 🙂 The Broons maybe.

Even your insulting technique seems to need improvement. I could call you a twat in Ukrainian, Welsh, or Latin, but wouldn’t as the purpose of message would be lost.

6855 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to AidanR, 1, #487 of 582 🔗

Some things are just right.
If you’re not willing to not stand up for what’s right out of fear of being associated with ‘the undesirables’ you might wanna take a look at yourself, not them.

6882 ▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to Farinances, -1, #488 of 582 🔗

I never said I’m unwilling to do what’s right. If that was true, I wouldn’t even have bothered to posit the question – in fact I wouldn’t be here at all and I wouldn’t have chucked cash into Simon Dolan’s bucket.

But just like you can be against uncontrolled immigration but not want to join the BNP or For Britain or whatever, I’m not sure the movement that’s putting together these public gatherings is the right tool for the job.

If you want to go anyway, then all power to you, but don’t be surprised when you’re associated with this ‘lunatic fringe’ by the MSM that 80% of people still rely on for their information, and don’t be surprised if that ends up in being counterproductive when it comes to building a critical mass of public support.

6950 ▶▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to AidanR, 1, #489 of 582 🔗

Opposition to what one thinks is a bad idea is not counterproductive however much public support (or not) it garners, Even if a ‘lunatic fringe’ (your words) is associated with it.

6964 ▶▶▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to Nigel Baldwin, #490 of 582 🔗

Is my chain of logic faulty, Nigel?

Freedom movement is linked with irrelevant ideas that the media are able to easily smear, based on rudimentary and widely accepted science -> general public shy away from supporting the movement -> movement falls into obscurity and irrelevance.

6957 ▶▶▶▶ ScuzzaMan, replying to AidanR, #491 of 582 🔗

If you’re already afraid of how the media will try to destroy your reputation and disqualify you from the debate by association then they’ve already won.

6971 ▶▶▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to ScuzzaMan, #492 of 582 🔗

Dear me… who said anything about being afraid? I’m saying it would be better if this whole thing wasn’t made to be about fringe theories that detract from what this is actually all about i.e. freedom, the economy, our jobs and business.

7455 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to AidanR, #493 of 582 🔗

” … and I wouldn’t have chucked cash into Simon Dolan’s bucket.”.

Twice you’ve mentioned that. Not sure I wish to be associated with someone whose communicating/campaigning style is so vulgar. 🙂 Just sayin’.

(The MSM will call you an ‘anti-vaxxer’ merely for opposing mandatory vaccines. Be prepared.).

6785 Fiat, replying to Fiat, 4, #494 of 582 🔗

Some relief if you enjoy water sports. In guidance issued this morning (13 May 2020), Government have confirmed that:
“All forms of water sports practised on open waterways, including sailing, windsurfing, canoeing, rowing, kayaking, surfing, paddle-boarding and the use of privately-owned motorised craft (in line with the guidance issued by the relevant navigation authority) are allowed.”
Ts & Cs apply.

6801 ▶▶ ScuzzaMan, replying to Fiat, 12, #495 of 582 🔗

It is very unwise to celebrate this.

They are no longer your right, now they are “allowed”.

No longer must our governments demonstrate clear and present danger but we must demonstrate “safety”, a fantasy of an infantile mind and in practice and impossible standard. A thousand years of progress is flipped on its head overnight.

To accept this historic reversal is foolhardy – the celebrate it is suicidal.

6787 Alice, #496 of 582 🔗

Has Goldfinger – Get Up been suggested as a theme song?

6788 Poppy, replying to Poppy, 21, #497 of 582 🔗


For those who haven’t got access due to the paywall, an article about adapting relationships now that couples can meet but must keep a 2m distance.

Surely I can’t be the only one who thinks that this is a) completely ridiculous, b) totally defeats the object of being a couple, c) no one in their right might will keep 2m distance from a partner after months apart.

It sends a shiver down my spine. We’re being stopped from acting like humans.

6790 ▶▶ RDawg, replying to Poppy, 16, #498 of 582 🔗

It’s basically psychological abuse. Intimacy, physical touch and being close to your partner are fundamental human rights. The government has taken this to a ridiculous level of imbecilic proportions. They are so drunk on power and control, they have lost all sense of rationality and proportion.

My advice? Break the law. F**k it. Just don’t tell anyone and try not to get caught. There are still a lot of informants about, eager to call the police and report on the rule breakers. Don’t let them win.

6807 ▶▶▶ A13, replying to RDawg, 6, #499 of 582 🔗

Break the law? There is no law prohibiting you from touching another human being. This is nonsense.

6823 ▶▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to A13, 2, #500 of 582 🔗

Indeed, but as I said below the gov are relying on the fact that people will not formally distinguish between the law and mere guidance.

6852 ▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Poppy, 2, #501 of 582 🔗

Stay sane. Ignore the guidance. Shake hands.

6789 Back To Normal, replying to Back To Normal, 13, #502 of 582 🔗

I do feel sorry for the Scots today. With England’s PERi-ometer index moving to “Medium”, they are still stuck at “Hot”, thanks to wee Krankie.

6818 ▶▶ GetaGrip, replying to Back To Normal, 8, #503 of 582 🔗

Yes – although I can report that today the traffic on the A96 and Inverness is noticeablty much busier, suggesting many businesses have taken the English cue to get going again today.
That’s not to say that the Scots have been any less witless, petrified and indolent than England over this fiasco, but it does suggest Sturgeon’s latest power-play telling Scots to still ‘Stay At Home’ has probably only resonated with The Party faithful.

6832 ▶▶▶ wendyk, replying to GetaGrip, 7, #504 of 582 🔗

She Who Must Be Obeyed is facing a gradual outbreak of disobedience by us heretics who don’t toe the SNP line

6795 ScuzzaMan, replying to ScuzzaMan, 15, #505 of 582 🔗

Regarding common sense. At my age I cannot now recall who said it but when I studied politics at university the observation was made that our freedom largely exists only in those areas where our rulers admit to their incompetence. This is a vital principle that people who would be free must bear in the forefront of our thinking about the powers that we permit our governments to exercise.
When our rulers consider that they are more competent than we to make significant life decision then instantaneously arises the hue and cry from the progressive elements that they now have a *moral obligation* to make these decisions for (all of) us. It is no coincidence that “ think of the children! ” is the catch-cry of these well-meaning busybodies for this is how they see the entire populace, as ignorant uneducated ill-disciplined emotionally volatile children. Our good and wise government, by great contrast, knows more than we do, knows better than we do, has battalions of scientific advisers, deputy assistant undersecretaries of how to sort your household garbage correctly, and of course they are just following the science . No decisions or trade-offs are ever necessary if one merely follows the science . One cannot be held morally or legally responsible for the destruction of lives, economies, and civilizations, if one merely follows the science . One cannot be incompetent, one cannot make a bad trade-off choice, if one merely follows the science .

One wonders, parenthetically, why we need governments at all, when each and every one of them, at each and every level of jurisdiction, merely follows the science ? Perhaps this mystery too will one day be solved by science.

Returning to the point – it is utterly natural and proper for us to follow the guidance of those who really do know better, know more, and are wiser than we.

The central question then becomes, is it true in any particular case that our great and good governments do indeed know more about the risks to our lives than we know? Is it true in any particular case that our great and good governments do indeed know better than we? Is it true in any particular case that our great and good governments are wiser than we?

In this particular case, the case of the global corona virus pandemic, is it true?

I put it to you that in any court of law operated by these same governments, this contention could not be proved even on the loosest of “preponderance of evidence” standards, and is utterly impossible on the basis of the “beyond reasonable doubt” standard, but I leave that judgement to each reader to make for themselves.

I merely pose the question: is it true ?

And if our great and good governments are not competent – what then?

6803 ▶▶ Mark, replying to ScuzzaMan, 12, #506 of 582 🔗

I think it’s pretty safe to say that we’ve just had about as clear a demonstration as you could possibly wish for that governments absolutely do not know better.

In fact we are living through a global demonstration of the validity of the old refutation of paternalism – it only makes sense until you understand that the people running things are themselves only human, and far from being the best of us, what’s more.

6828 ▶▶ IanE, replying to ScuzzaMan, #507 of 582 🔗

Agreed in general, BUT I put it to you that any court of law operated by THESE SAME GOVERNMENTS will give the answer required by these same governments (at least as long as these governments are not sane and Conservative – i.e. any time since Maggie was ousted).

6835 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to ScuzzaMan, 2, #508 of 582 🔗

“One wonders, parenthetically, why we need governments at all, when each and every one of them, at each and every level of jurisdiction, merely follows the science?”.

Got to have someone to determine the science needed, commission it, and ensure it gets well publicised. 🙂

6837 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to JohnB, 2, #509 of 582 🔗

Oh, and in the States, “I’m from the government and I’m here to help.” is one of the most worrying/frightening things one can hear. Allegedly.

6814 Victoria, replying to Victoria, 10, #510 of 582 🔗

“Bill Gates has gone on record saying life will not go back to normal until we have the ability to vaccinate the entire global population against COVID-19. To that end, he is pushing for disease surveillance and a vaccine tracking system that might involve embedding vaccination records on our bodies.
According to Gates, societal and financial normalcy may never return to those who refuse vaccination, as the digital vaccination certificate Gates is pushing for might ultimately be required to go about your day-to-day life.”
https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2020/05/13/digital-vaccination-certificate.aspx ?

One of the comments to this article: “How sad that such great minds have gone over to the dark side when they could have done so much good.”

6826 ▶▶ guy153, replying to Victoria, #511 of 582 🔗

Where did he go on record as saying these things?

6834 ▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Victoria, 5, #512 of 582 🔗

I was slightly concerned that Mrs Gates, being interviewed on CNBC last night, seemed to be pushing the ‘online teaching for ever’ narrative. Nothing to do with Microsoft Teams, of course! I do wish these philanthropists would just hand over the cheque book and leave the good causes to someone else.

6890 ▶▶▶ Markus, replying to Tyneside Tigress, #513 of 582 🔗

Gates already signed a deal with New York City.


Obviously they will be pushing their choise to every city in the US and why not worldwide too.

6846 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Victoria, 1, #514 of 582 🔗

And then we start burning shit.

6815 Victoria, 9, #515 of 582 🔗

OPEN the SCHOOLS so that people can return to work.

6817 Hammer Onats, replying to Hammer Onats, 8, #516 of 582 🔗

It’s simple to defeat the Telegraph paywall if you want to look at one of their articles. Copy the URL of the blocked article, open outline.com and paste the URL into the displayed box. This will bring up the article. Doesn’t work for Times or FT though.

6821 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Hammer Onats, 1, #517 of 582 🔗

Shhhh, someone at the DT might be here!

6830 ▶▶▶ A13, replying to IanE, #518 of 582 🔗

Some papers made coronavirus coverage free for all considering it a public service. Shame that the telegraph didn’t follow the same path.

6838 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to A13, #519 of 582 🔗

Ironic, considering that scaremongering media coverage panicking people was one of most damaging things around in the past few months….

Though of course a cynic might suggest that there’s a direct connection there – why charge people for propaganda that you want them to see in order to affect their behaviour.

6827 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Hammer Onats, #520 of 582 🔗

Interesting. Works for the Spectator too (just tried it on the link wendy gave above).

Only out of curiosity mind. I have to say I disapprove on principle. Let paywallers paywall, and hopefully ultimately open sources will win out in sheer traffic terms.

6863 ▶▶ Edna, replying to Hammer Onats, #521 of 582 🔗

Perhaps it works because with both the Spectator and the Telegraph, you can register with them (without subscribing) and then see a certain number of articles per month for free.

6880 ▶▶ Jane in France, replying to wendyk, 2, #523 of 582 🔗

I used to live in Japan and I try to keep up with what NHK is saying. Though the Japanese aren’t actually locked down, the people are encouraged to practise “voluntary restraint.” Which means you are made to feel guilty if you go out. This is having all sorts of social and psychological effects as you can imagine. The thing is, the Japanese have been muttering about covid since January. Chinese and Japanese travel to each other’s countries. It is impossible that the virus wasn’t circulating in Japan already. Yet to date, despite not exercising “voluntary restraint” till very recently, they have had 633 covid deaths, a rate of five per million. While they still hoped the Olympics could go ahead they went about their business. Somebody said (not on NHK) that once the Olympics were definitely cancelled the Japanese would be under pressure to do what other countries had done and that is what has happened.

6915 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to wendyk, #524 of 582 🔗

The only way to save the NHS is to follow the Japanese (also Swiss) example: “Everyone resident of Japan is required to have health insurance. The government’s scheme is funded by a tax based on income, topped up with fees for services paid at the hospital (generally 30 per cent of the cost of treatment, with a lower rate for seniors, and nothing for people on very low incomes). Coverage is wide (including mental illness and most dental care) and there is a ceiling to what you can pay, so no one should ever be ruined as a consequence of falling ill.” Copied from above link

6829 Jane in France, replying to Jane in France, 19, #525 of 582 🔗

This morning the little market at the foot of the hill was open for the first time in two months, France having come out of lockdown on Monday. While I was buying some cheese, I was aware of a man standing well back behind me, obviously keeping his distance. I turned to him and said he didn’t have anything to worry about; I had had the virus at the beginning of March. He could hardly believe it. Here I was still alive. How long was I in hospital? I didn’t go to hospital, just stayed at home and took vitamin D and vitamin C. He didn’t think it had reached our department. I said it had been circulating long before lockdown and there had only been 38 deaths. Did he know that 40,000 people die each year from respiratory illness in France? I really think I did manage to get my point across, that this virus is not the black death. As I was leaving I suggested we shake hands. At that he looked nervous. “It’s forbidden” says he. He didn’t dare. What sort of government dictates to its citizens whether or not they can shake hands? Yet he didn’t seem to find this strange. A bit depressing, but I still feel I might have made a little wave.

6833 ▶▶ Moomin, replying to Jane in France, 2, #526 of 582 🔗

Gosh, one of the characterising things of the French is their handshaking as they greet one another. When I lived there I thought it was great as you actually engage with people. For it to come to that is very sad.

6842 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Jane in France, #527 of 582 🔗

YES. This is my preferred approach. Get out there and shock people with normality!

6867 ▶▶ mhcp, replying to Jane in France, 2, #528 of 582 🔗

Like I was saying before: Handshakes Save Lives is an apt motto, not just for the normal transfer of germs to keep us all healthy

6843 Moomin, replying to Moomin, 20, #529 of 582 🔗

Speaking today Mr Sunak said: “It is now very likely that the UK economy will face a significant recession this year, and we’re already in the middle of that as we speak.” You don’t say?! Thanks for catching up head of government finance! ‘Oh, and by the way I’m just gonna exacerbate the financial ruin by giving out the money I found at the end of the rainbow, oh, wait, I found it in your pockets, oh no, you don’t have a job, oh, where will it come from, perhaps the other end of the rainbow!’ What planet are these guys on? They caused the recession! Oh man, the mind boggles, how is it that intelligent people can be so stupid?!

6848 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Moomin, 4, #530 of 582 🔗

how is it that intelligent people can be so stupid?!

We should have a requirement for all elected representatives and officials to repeat the litany against fear from Frank Herbert’s Dune, ten times out loud, in public, every morning.

“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

6861 ▶▶ wendyk, replying to Moomin, 1, #531 of 582 🔗

So should we rely on the Magic Money Tree or the Magic Roundabout?

6922 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to wendyk, #532 of 582 🔗


6844 Pebbles, replying to Pebbles, #533 of 582 🔗

Yesterday a video interview with Prof Cahill circled where she strongly advertised for Hydroxychloroquin as THE end all and be all cure for Covid-19.
Today Off-Guardian publishes this article by Prof Wodarg that HCL is indeed toxic mal medication for people from countries where malaria is endemic due to enzyme deficiency.
I wonder why Prof Dolores Cahill didn’t elaborate on that? Or did I miss it in her interview? She kept banging on about Vit C, Zinc and Vit D as preventative measures as well as using HCL – which according to this article could be rather deadly for people. Is she not aware of this enzyme deficiency, is this oversight on her part?
Can anyone shed light on this?

6847 ▶▶ Pebbles, replying to Pebbles, #534 of 582 🔗

This is the correct link for English version. Apologies.

6875 ▶▶ Jane in France, replying to Pebbles, #535 of 582 🔗

That worried me too. You didn’t miss anything; she didn’t mention it.

6891 ▶▶ JASA, replying to Pebbles, 1, #536 of 582 🔗

HCQ not HCl.

6910 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to Pebbles, #537 of 582 🔗

HcQ has been used for decades to treat malaria across the globe, not just CV19 for a few months. If it really was toxic to BAME it would surely have come to light by now as it’s used right across Africa, and wherever malaria is endemic. One continent where there haven’t been so many cases of CV19 has been Africa, possibly because hydroxychloroquine is used there.

6912 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to Pebbles, #538 of 582 🔗

What was interesting was this paragraph:


Because of the great importance for the Covid-19 occurrence, special attention must be paid to the SARS-CoV-2 PCR test – the only instrument available to measure the virus and to be able to talk about a new spread at all.
My assessment on this has not changed since the end of February: Without the PCR test for SARS-CoV-2 viruses designed by German scientists, we would not have noticed a corona “epidemic” or even a “pandemic”.”

6850 Hammer Onats, replying to Hammer Onats, 2, #539 of 582 🔗
6900 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Hammer Onats, 3, #540 of 582 🔗

“After we alerted the Department of Health and Social Care and the NHS to the documents being exposed they were set to private and no longer available for anyone to view.”

Why did you do that, Wired? 😝

Over my dead body, basically. I’ve already started leaving my phone at home every time I go out.

6907 ▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to Farinances, 1, #541 of 582 🔗

I believe the tracing app in S.Korea only had a 15% take up.

6923 ▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Farinances, #542 of 582 🔗

I’ve been leaving my phone at home since this started

6860 Back To Normal, replying to Back To Normal, 10, #543 of 582 🔗

This may upset a few people here but i am going to say it anyway – I am a little dissappointed at the lack of direct action that we seem to be taking.
I’ve said before that we need an organised campaign but i still don’t see one.
So far i have written to my MP. He followed it up by telephoning me personally to discuss my concerns. I have also submitted 2 petitions to the parliaments petition site. I notice someone is planning a tweetbomb but i dont seee much other direct action (unless i’ve missed it).
My idea to create a KEEP CALM…. t-shirt doesn’t seem to be getting much traction – see my earlier comment explaining that one.
Its great to re-inforce each others views here, but we are going to have to do a lot more than that to defeat the nonsense all around us.

6898 ▶▶ karate56, replying to Back To Normal, 6, #544 of 582 🔗

I’ve sent several letters to my MP, sent over 20 to other conservative MP’s who are considered most prominent, bombarded Hancock, Raab, Schapps, Johnson with twitter messages but to be honest I see little point. My local MP is good and has the decency to reply and has agreed on many points that all of this lockdown is total shit and is a disaster. The other 20 have not replied at all and considering the abuse I sent Hancock, Raab, Schapps and Johnson on Twitter the only response I expect is from the police.
In my opinion, the convincing that needs to be done is of the general public. There are some main stream media outlets that are now seeing the disaster that were nurturing but it really needs corporations like them to get out the wider message. If a few like minded lockdown sceptics got together and demonstrated in some way I don’t think would get any coverage.
There needs to be a national exposure of the insanity of the lockdown, but that has to help by prominent scientists or people currently in the cabinet having the balls to stand up and be counted.
I hope, although its probably a false hope, that the fact the government seems to not give a shit who now goes where and what for that something, somewhere is beginning to give and they are realising the gargantuan nature of their folly.

6901 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to Back To Normal, 1, #545 of 582 🔗

I’ve thought the same thing, but I think it would need to be a serious lobby group rather than a street protest. There are enough sceptics amongst scientists and others to make a loud enough objection. It needs more than just websites like this one, good though it is for connecting sceptics online.
However, when you consider the number the anti-Brexit establishment did on the people of the UK, just to get their own way, if the government isn’t on side, and there really is another agenda at play, I’m not sure how successful it would be. It would depend on how receptive Boris is.

6947 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Lms23, #546 of 582 🔗

Claire Fox – Insitute of Ideas?

6909 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to Back To Normal, 1, #547 of 582 🔗

I agree. I endorsed your t-shirt idea on an earlier thread and suggested a few of my own. As I’ve bored on about before, there doesn’t appear to be a charismatic cheerleader to galvanise the lockdown-sceptic cause. I would gladly go and march against the loss of liberty/belief that crashing the economy is the solution but there is no-one orchestrating such a movement. I also wrote to my MP and received a pretty dispiriting response which I posted yesterday.

6914 ▶▶▶ Suitejb, replying to kh1485, #548 of 582 🔗

At least you got a reply. I’m still waiting after writing 2 weeks ago!

6935 ▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Suitejb, #549 of 582 🔗

I wouldn’t let that bother you. Read mine, bar the names, it’ll just be the same!

6917 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to Back To Normal, 2, #550 of 582 🔗

I think I might have found our two lobbyist front men (actually, one man, one woman): Piers Corbyn (does the science bit) and Kirsty Allsopp (well-known public figure, good with tv):


Piers Corbyn
It’s not a #pandemic, #Lockdown unecessary ADMITS UK GOV. Yet BBC spout #FearVirus 24/7

REJECT #Globalist #NewNormal
#StandUp for OUR NewNormal:
*Accountability +END conflicts of interest in all decisions.
Sat 16May 12noon SpeakersCorner

Kirstie Allsopp
The Covid mortality rate for children is 0.01% roughly the same as seasonal flu and if you don’t believe me ask
. Those spreading fear and misinformation to parents, and children, are doing real, lasting damage to an entire generation.

6930 ▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Lms23, 2, #551 of 582 🔗

Kirsty is credible, cuddly and well liked. I think the name Corbyn is a non starter. They can’t have an axe to grind, they’ve got to be seen to be agnostic on the whole polarising politics that’s going on. A sort of ‘common sense’ figure, with massive trust ratings.

6870 Back To Normal, replying to Back To Normal, 8, #552 of 582 🔗

Has anyone got any idea how we might get Lord Sumption on Newsnight and Question Time? Don’t laugh, he used to be a regular on Newsnight back in the days of Brexit legal challenges.

6887 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Back To Normal, 1, #553 of 582 🔗

They wouldn’t dare.

6897 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to Back To Normal, #554 of 582 🔗

He was on Radio 4 very recently, with Evan Davis, who did not so much interview him as lecture him.

6892 Oaks79, replying to Oaks79, 9, #555 of 582 🔗

Seen a few suggest Boris and Cummings have some sort of master plan. Well I can say is they best hurry up and pull it from their Rs

6918 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Oaks79, 1, #556 of 582 🔗

If so, it is bound to smell like bulls hit!

6895 Lms23, #557 of 582 🔗

I noted that Tucker Carlson was focussing on Dr.Fauci in last night’s show, under the banner “Has America put too much faith in one man?”bearing in mind that it was he and Dr.Birx who used Neil Ferguson’s dodgy predictions to push for the shutdown of America. Plus his advice to the public has been about as consistent as that from the WHO.

6899 Farinances, replying to Farinances, 2, #558 of 582 🔗

The press are beginning go catch on. But only in certain, acceptable, ‘government challenging’ ways.
At least the challenging is now about something substantial though rather than nit-picking over ventilators or test numbers.

6955 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Farinances, 2, #559 of 582 🔗

What we’ve done to the old is what tipped me into full blown opposition to all this, it’s shameful. I’m so sad about it, I hope if there’s one thing we can salvage from the ashes of all this, it’s proper respect for our elders.

6911 Barney McGrew, replying to Barney McGrew, 14, #560 of 582 🔗

I keep getting a hint of deja vu about all this. It’s reminding me of Brexit, where a proportion of the country went into a kind of self-destructive frenzy for a couple of years (Gina Miller, supreme court, belligerent man in EU hat on parliament green and so on). This resulted in parliament doing very little for that time, the UK looking idiotic to outsiders, and the country at large getting a hint of the helplessness we’re feeling now. It also hurt the economy by causing uncertainty for business and generally dragging Britain’s reputation down.

And when the general election finally came, and Boris was elected as PM, it was all for nothing and could be seen as being for nothing. But the people who had put us through this didn’t apologise, or admit that perhaps their time could have been spent more constructively. It was as if they had gone onto automatic pilot, opposing the government, opposing the uneducated plebs even though they knew, ultimately that what they were doing was illegitimate, anti-democratic and self-destructive.

This feels the same. Similar people have gone into a self-destructive frenzy motivated by, I am guessing, some sense of a community of ‘nice people’ standing together in the face of some nasty threat. Instead of EU badges and posters in their windows, they have masks and rainbows. Just like Brexit, they want to believe the worst. And when it is all over, they won’t feel the slightest embarrassment or shame about it. Yes, the country will be on its knees, but they will have done what they simply had to do – it is as if they had no choice in the matter.

6916 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Barney McGrew, #561 of 582 🔗

*round of applause*

It’s super gonorrhea all over again.

6925 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Barney McGrew, 5, #562 of 582 🔗

Remainer here, although not that anything I said, did anything to scupper parliament, although did quite passionately not want to leave. The thing is, it’s your frame of reference, I think that’s partly what drove the Brexit nightmare (regardless of what side you were on). From the remainer camp, Brexit itself WAS a self destructive frenzy, and everything you say about remain, remain felt about brexit. All the hoo ha about how crap the EU was, was ‘project fear’. Remainers didn’t feel it was democratic (closing down parliament, advisory ref, lies, we can be like Switzerland/Canada to suddenly no deal etc). So horses for courses depending on which side you are or were on. We could argue about it endlessly now and still not agree.

Lockdown strikes me more like the war on terror and weapons of mass destruction, with a massive dollop of the culture wars thrown in. Anti lockdowners (as we’ve discussed endlessly here) are not split by remain leave, we’re more the rational vs emotional, the pragmatic vs the ideological?

I’d love to see the polling data by socioeconomic group.

6927 ▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to BecJT, 3, #563 of 582 🔗

Dear God please let us not rehash the arguments over B****t.

I agree with a big part of your analysis though.

6933 ▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to AidanR, 2, #564 of 582 🔗

Good grief not likely, no wish to go there again! I think it’s hard to analyse it when in the thick of it, it’s such a massive mess it’s hard to pin it down. I never read the Sun, but their editorial today is about the most sensible thing I’ve seen in the press for weeks and weeks, I’m taking a little glimmer of hope from that. I just want as many people as possible on our team, I think it’s important not to conflate it with other issues, as then we’ve got two arguments to win, not one. Regardless of Brexit, lockdown is reckless damaging lunacy, we all agree on this.

6945 ▶▶▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to BecJT, #565 of 582 🔗

We agree on that, Bec.. although my concerns further down about the gatherings this weekend being associated by the media with anti-vaxxers and anti-5G people got a pretty unwelcome reception 🙂

6970 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to AidanR, 3, #566 of 582 🔗

I’ve been involved for about four years on a long running women’s issue pushing back on one of the more insane woke outcomes of the culture wars, I won’t derail by saying what. I’ve also worked professionally on big media, corporate, national press campaigns, and run a local campaign, with massive PR element, fighting back against a rural planning nightmare (renegade local authority) – TV, radio, social media channels, regional and local press. In all of it, credibility really matters. One whiff of nutters, and nobody takes you seriously, and the other side use it to discredit you. Lockdown opposition has a sensible, cogent, compassionate, logical basis, even if useful idiots can be quite useful, in that they push the debate back into the middle, where it needs to be, it’s important they are not ‘part’ of the actual campaign, campaign identity is pretty crucial (which is also why I’m wishing Simon Dolan would stop sharing Breitbart articles, he’s got the moral highground and is now chipping away at his own potential supporter base). Basically the rule of thumb is ‘would I buy a used car from this person?’. There are fringe loonies running amok at the moment, on both sides (see: Refuse to work, and false flag deep state, for starters), most Brits, when they are thinking straight, are small c conservative, sensible, and in the middle. E.g. planning nightmare, I could write chapter and verse, when we polled it, what people cared about was parking, bins (services), medical access, green spaces and community (ie massive influx of new residents would change the place too much, too quickly). We also had support from climate and environmental activist people, who were dying for direct action, but we pitched the tone of it as if talking to your average National Trust member, quite deliberately and did a lot of very polite ‘write to your county councillor’ campaigns (we won).

6987 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to BecJT, #567 of 582 🔗

Is there any demographic data on who lockdown sceptics are? That’d really help us.

7060 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to BecJT, #568 of 582 🔗

Praise be. I hereby nominate you as defacto leader, Bec.

7021 ▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to BecJT, 4, #569 of 582 🔗

I haven’t said whether I was a Brexiteer or a remainer. For me, the issue is the *pointlessness* of trying to overturn the result after it had happened. This lockdown is *pointless* and destructive and I suspect that many of the zealots know, deep down, that it is. I don’t wish to re-hash Brexit; it’s just that it feels to me like a prelude to Covid. As someone points out above, the arguments feel similar in tone. This wouldn’t have happened in the past, but society has become so brittle that the slightest crack ends up destroying everything.

6928 ▶▶ guy153, replying to Barney McGrew, 4, #570 of 582 🔗

Two days ago Toby reported on the Parliamentary Committee on Human Rights’ report into the tracking App.

The membership of this committee includes such people as Joanna Cherry QC, who were probably not on your side in the Brexit debate. Cherry brought the case against the government in Scotland over the prorogation.

These are the same people who are now standing up to defend us from a surveillance app. They’re not self-destructive or anti-democratic. They’re principled.

I have also had to admit that rather a lot of the pro-Brexit MPs I disapproved of so much back then are actually on the right side of this debate and the best chance of any kind of parliamentary rebellion against Johnson.

So let’s put Brexit behind us, heal old wounds, reunite the country etc. in the face of this new disaster.

6934 ▶▶▶ AngryRemainer, replying to guy153, 1, #571 of 582 🔗

Very pissed off that Brexit has been able to go ahead at all, but we’ve bigegr threats to worry about now. Ending lockdowns and stopping mas surveillance apps must come before any issue so, in hindsight, stupidly partisan, as Brexit.

6938 ▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to guy153, 2, #572 of 582 🔗

Exactly, I’ll take a grown up, any grown up on our team.

6932 ▶▶ karate56, replying to Barney McGrew, 7, #573 of 582 🔗

You also have the same kind of stigma attached to you now as with Brexit. I voted for Brexit, people didn’t agree, fair enough. However, the amount of friends and colleagues who thought just because I voted Brexit was skin to me being some kind of colonial Victorian soldier on a killing spree in the Sudan, or having drinks every night with Pik Botha and Eugene de Kock, was unreal. I genuinely felt threatened for having a pretty rational political opinion.
The same thing has happened with the lockdown – I think its a load of bollocks, but no matter what rational, scientifically sound argument I present, I’m labelled as a septuagenarian/octogenarian serial killing bastard. I’m also a threat to worldwide peace, health and safety – I’m a monster.
These people I know – I see them all the time – some are friends, I work with them and at the end of all this there will be no memory of it for them, no reflection as to what irrational twats they’ve been. Its the oddest behavioural trait I’ve ever had the misfortune to witness and its all happened in a small space of time.

6936 ▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to karate56, 4, #574 of 582 🔗

And I’d agree with you there, fringe remainers were extremely offensive and that’s why I don’t really care about it now, we lost, job done. But I had the same issue with ardent leavers, spouting the latest nonsense over the Lisbon Treaty, and they were also pretty scary. I had a man point and shout at me in a pub when I just gently said ‘but that’s not true though’ , YOU LOOK LIKE A REMAINER. Really scared me. The whole thing was insane, bitter, divisive and not based on many facts, on either side, it’s pointless rehashing it. Many remainers had rational, logical arguments too, I was one of them. But it’s done. My main concern is we don’t scare people off supporting our pov on lockdown because they disagree on other issues. I think sticking to a single issue is a better strategy.

I also agree that how lockdown has polarised people is more about emotion than facts. If you’ve ever argued with an ardent gender identity supporter, it’s a lot like that too, ‘shut up you are literally killing people!’ followed by reams of hokey stats and ‘science’.

More broadly I think it’s the culture wars, here we go again, just lockdown this time.

6995 ▶▶ ianp, replying to Barney McGrew, 1, #575 of 582 🔗

Do NOT discount Brexit as a factor in the last 12 weeks of fear propaganda. Or at least the idea and ideology of Brexit.

I haven’t, and I voted to remain.

I don’t think it was any coincidence that one of the latter black death ebola updates had a question ‘from the public’ about Brexit – seemed infuriatingly pointless, but again I suspect a carefully planted message in amongst all of this. Otherwise, why do it when most rational people were despairing at the non stop negativity

6913 SweetBabyCheeses, 1, #576 of 582 🔗

I too am a leftie, (although I’ve recently had to distance myself from UK Labour for all their gender nonsense.) I don’t think skepticism is anything to do with the left-right political spectrum. It’s science.

6926 Farinances, replying to Farinances, 4, #577 of 582 🔗

Spare a thought for the poor, put upon police, who’ve spent the past six weeks harassing you and now don’t know how they’re gonna continue doing their ‘public service’ under the new fuzzy-wuzzy guidance!

6981 ▶▶ ianp, replying to Farinances, 2, #578 of 582 🔗

They won’t be able to, that’s the point. The fuzzy guidance as you accurately put it, was a subliminal message (the new propaganda), the old message was very direct propaganda.

I understood it straight away, as was never taken in by the severity of the virus from the start, nor the subsequent mass brainwashing that took place. In amongst it all, the govt was dropping in hint bombs about what was going on to those still ‘awake’ and not in the fear coma.

Basically it is for the people to choose isn’t it?. ‘What do you want?’.

Compare it with the rules and regulations on being able to outside from most of abroad there isn’t much you can’t do. The stupid ‘social distancing’ and no crowds remains but go and speak to as many other people as you like – says 1 person per day, but how on earth can that be policed?Answer = it can’t.

Easy thing to do is knock on your neighbours door and see how they are doing… this is what is being encouraged. If they come out with a dishcloth wrapped around their face then they are (almost) a lost cause, if they don’t then they are either like us or are a bit confused and need to be given a lesson in logic.

6996 ▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to ianp, 1, #579 of 582 🔗

I concur with that, it cannot be policed is the key message.

7063 ▶▶ AidanR, replying to Farinances, #580 of 582 🔗

I don’t think the police are allowed to call them fuzzy-wuzzy any more.

6929 Arsh, 4, #581 of 582 🔗

I just want to say thanks, Toby, for keeping us sane in a world that has lost its mind. Brave of you, because I know you admire Boris, but you, Lionel Shriver, Peter Hitchens, Simon Dolan, Dr John Lee and a few others will be seen as common sense heroes in years to come.

6968 paulito, #582 of 582 🔗

This vedeo cheered me up no end. Takes awhile to get going but worth it.


110 users made 582 comments today.

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