Last updated2020-05-29T18:11:42



16907 RS @ home, replying to RS @ home, 15, #1 of 413 🔗

Sounds like things are returning to normal in Middle England…

Things won’t be close to normal until all kids go back to school and the parents can go back to work!

16911 ▶▶ Julian, replying to RS @ home, 45, #2 of 413 🔗

I agree. It’s great to see people out and about and socialising, in groups of bigger than 6. But we’re being thrown morsels really and we can’t be satisifed until the Coronavirus Act is off the statute books and social distancing rules that will screw up every organisation and business that needs to follow them are scrapped.

16912 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Julian, 4, #3 of 413 🔗

For example, just got this from my local Freecycle group:

“All posts must describe how social distancing will be done”

16980 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Julian, 3, #4 of 413 🔗

*rolls eyes*

Is social distancing necessary on bikes?

17070 ▶▶▶▶▶ Andrew Cordle, replying to Farinances, #5 of 413 🔗

Freecycle is a recycling group, notting to do with bikes!

17329 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Andrew Cordle, 1, #6 of 413 🔗

Lol ok

Like….. Does this mean people get together to sort their rubbish?

17414 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Biker, replying to Andrew Cordle, #7 of 413 🔗

i used to recycle but now the dump is closed i’m feeling like fly tipping. I won’t because i don’t want to bother any one else land but i tell you it’s tempting

16982 ▶▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Julian, 6, #8 of 413 🔗

Well that’s me off Freecycle

17003 ▶▶▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to Julian, 6, #9 of 413 🔗

I was going to say what a load of cricket balls.

Why would I gift something to someone which is no longer any use to me, if I think it can kill someone.

I can see it now, someone comes to collect a piece of furniture, before they put it in their vehicle to take it away they wash it down with neat Dettol, and they are in full head to toe PPE.


16997 ▶▶ South Coast Worker, replying to RS @ home, 14, #10 of 413 🔗

And until this distancing nonsense is ignored it will never feel normal.

16909 Julian, replying to Julian, 20, #11 of 413 🔗

Some snippets from today’s govt. briefing:

“NHS England’s medical director Stephen Powis gives some details on public observance of lockdown rules and guidance from an official survey.

He says 29% of people are using a face covering outside their home.”

Hmm. Maybe in cities? Been out all day in my town and in the park – I would say that figure is closer to 2.9%.

BBC, piece about number of fines issued for lockdown breaches: “ Social distancing of two metres still has to be observed, although police do not enforce this guidance because it has not been written into the law.”

So 2 metres “has to be observed” but it’s not the law? How has the BBC sunk so low.

“There’s a question about whether total costs of the furlough and self-employed schemes will be £100bn over eight months.

Chancellor Rishi Sunak says it is difficult to give a “precise estimate” at this stage, and points to figures from the Office of Budget Responsibility.”

Well, how about a rough estimate then? Never mind – why would we expect the Chancellor of the Exchequer of one of the world’s most “advanced” nations to know how much of other people’s money he was wasting?

16929 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Julian, 3, #12 of 413 🔗

How has the BBC sunk so low.

The BBC has its hands tied pretty tightly, as the recent clampdown on Newsnight clearly demonstrates. I prefer to think that it keeps sneaking in tiny cracks and hoping people will spot them.

Having said that, I’ve been so disgusted with the blatant propaganda I’ve been having very serious doubts whether to renew my tv licence this weekend.

16934 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Cheezilla, 9, #13 of 413 🔗

Well, they don’t seem so tightly tied that they can’t attack the government over PPE, or Cummings, among other things. They’ve just not questioned the basic narrative – but then again hardly anyone else has either. They are only going along with this supposedly Conservative goverment while it fawns over the NHS, pays people to do nothing, and overreacts to the crisis.

16946 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Julian, 3, #14 of 413 🔗

They still have to satisfy Ofcom ATEOTD – not that that particularly matters cause the print press have largely been on the same train.

Hence – the pretend adversarial stance towards the gvt. I say pretend because as you say the REAL opposition is opposition to the lockdown policy itself, not all this nitpicking round the edges on relatively small issues.

As I’ve said before the BBC actually permits the gvt. to use it as an organ of… well basically propaganda ‘in times of crisis’ (hence Orwell’s digust when he worked for them during the war), so they tow the line incredibly well when it comes to ‘national security’ issues / terrorism / ‘crises’ etc. They’re totally on board when it comes to gvt policy in the round, so they have to feign opposition by reducing debate to that very narrow Overton window of ‘right policy, wrong implementation’. Hence – lockdown wasn’t early enough, lockdown wasn’t hard enough, not enough PPE, blablabla. The only thing they’ve rightfully zoned in on is the care home scandal, but even that hasn’t been concentrated on in the way it should – they really haven’t focused at all on the fact that the policy was orchestrated on high, is premeditated (in order protect the beloved NHS from its patients) and is therefore tantamount to crime (imho).

16950 ▶▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to Cheezilla, 5, #15 of 413 🔗

I haven’t had a TV for years. Haven’t missed it. The odd sports event, perhaps, but nothing else.

16985 ▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Cheezilla, 1, #16 of 413 🔗

Me too. I was going to ask if anyone else had done it as a result of the fear porn and how much hassle it was.

17053 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Nigel Baldwin, #17 of 413 🔗

You get letters from Crapita. Err, that’s it.

17061 ▶▶▶▶▶ Martin Spencer, replying to JohnB, #18 of 413 🔗

No, I’ve had 3 visits in 9 years.

17194 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ anon, replying to Martin Spencer, #19 of 413 🔗

Tell them to get lost! Stand up for yourself man.

17306 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Martin Spencer, #20 of 413 🔗

Cool ! I’ve always wanted a visit. Have been telly/licence free for around 12 years, and no visit. 🙁 We are pretty rural, are you in a town or city, Martin ?

My (Ukrainian) wife has been taught what to say should they ever darken our door – “Please leave immediately.”.

16998 ▶▶▶ South Coast Worker, replying to Cheezilla, 1, #21 of 413 🔗

Got ride of the licence years ago. Plenty of other things to watch aside from the BBC.

17023 ▶▶▶ Jonathan Castro, replying to Cheezilla, #22 of 413 🔗

I ditched mine a few years back

17036 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Cheezilla, 2, #23 of 413 🔗

Not had a telly for years now and have boycotted the MSM for a long time too.

17068 ▶▶▶ Morris_Day, replying to Cheezilla, 2, #24 of 413 🔗

My TV licence expired at the end of April and I did not renew. Absolutely the correct decision. I don’t really watch TV though, just movies and series through Netflix etc.

The propaganda is awful.

17191 ▶▶▶ anon, replying to Cheezilla, #25 of 413 🔗

Do not pay them to propagandise you and whoever else watches your television!

Better still give it up. You will feel much better.

16937 ▶▶ Scotty87, replying to Julian, 11, #26 of 413 🔗

I suspect many of the furloughed workers who’ve been paid today would have been chuckling all the way back from the off-licence as they prepare for another day supping ice cold lager in the sun.

Little do thousands of them know that their employers are already drawing up redundancy plans!

16943 ▶▶ GetAGrip, replying to Julian, 8, #27 of 413 🔗

Couldn’t agree more Julian. I’m up in Yorkshire and would calculate fewer than 5% are wearing masks.
Just where do these estimates originate!

16984 ▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Julian, #28 of 413 🔗

I thought the whole point about an estimate was that it wasn’t precise, that’s why it’s estimated.

17069 ▶▶ Morris_Day, replying to Julian, 1, #29 of 413 🔗

I would estimate 5-10% here in St Albans. It’s usually the 20 somethings.

16915 guy153, 12, #30 of 413 🔗

Even if the FT’s correlation did exist it doesn’t change anything. At some point you have to come out of the lockdown whereupon everything is the same apart from you now have a few million more unemployed people.

The only viable strategies are and always were TTT and herd immunity + protect the vulnerable. It was too late for the former and the UK is far too incompetent anyway.

16917 DocRC, replying to DocRC, 5, #31 of 413 🔗

Toby’s piece about the IFR calculated from seroprevalence studies (his revised figure is 0.25%) seems to me to be plain wrong. The ONS estimated that 6.78% of the population have antibodies but if only that small percentage have had the disease, why is the epidemic behaving as if the population is approaching herd immunity? We know that many people, maybe as many as 50%, clear Covid without developing antibodies. As previously discussed here there have been studies (Prof Shane Crotty in La Jolla for example) that have found T-cell mediated immunity to Covid which is presumed to be cross-reactivity from previous exposure to other coronaviruses e.g. the common cold. I think the IFR is going to turn out to be much lower than the 0.25% Toby calculates.

16925 ▶▶ guy153, replying to DocRC, 1, #32 of 413 🔗

Most seroprevalence studies wind up with an IFR of around 0.2% on the assumption that everyone exposed has antibodies. This means that the true IFR is probably quite a bit lower than that.

But it’s fairly reasonable to assume that a “has antibodies fatality ratio” should be around 0.2%. When it comes out as 0.7% or so you need to look closely at whether the infection rate outside the hospitals and care homes is representative of the infection rate inside them.

Toby’s corrections to get to about 0.25% (by compensating for nosocomial infections) look reasonable because he’s comparing like for like.

16930 ▶▶ Adele Bull, replying to DocRC, 11, #33 of 413 🔗

So WHY are we still locked down?! Surely Whitty etc know all this? They seem like reasonable people! What’s the issue?

16936 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Adele Bull, 13, #34 of 413 🔗

I think the main reasons are:

1) The govt know they have messed a few major things up (care homes, PPE, track and trace) and are petrified of messing anything else up (though they are trying their best to do so

2) Having made such a song and dance about lockdown, saying it was a bit of a waste of time would make them look very silly indeed

3) Public opinion is still probably only just in favour of lockdown. The relaxation in restrictions they are introducing seem to be running a week or two behind the public ignoring them. They are scared to be seen to be going too fast.

16945 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Julian, 11, #35 of 413 🔗

Point being it’s politically motivated not pulbic health motivated.

But then, so was the original lockdown, so…..

16964 ▶▶▶ South Coast Worker, replying to Adele Bull, 13, #36 of 413 🔗

You’re assuming the lockdown had anything to do with a virus in the first place.

16993 ▶▶▶▶ Adele Bull, replying to South Coast Worker, 3, #37 of 413 🔗

Well yes, there is that…

16977 ▶▶▶ GetaGrip, replying to Adele Bull, 6, #38 of 413 🔗

They’re enjoying their moment of fame and don’t want their legacy as being seen to be responsible for The Big Corona Cock-Up.

So what would you do?

You’d stay on-message, come over all THE (manipulated selective) SCIENCE, play the AVOID THE SECOND WAVE card by recommending a VERY gradual Unlockdown, and look forward to your Knighthood and thanks from A GRATEFUL NATION delivered by you, from CERTAIN DEATH.


16988 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to GetaGrip, 1, #39 of 413 🔗

Yup. Can’t be cut off from that juicy gvt funding

16994 ▶▶▶▶ Adele Bull, replying to GetaGrip, #40 of 413 🔗

Love that word! 😂

17014 ▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to GetaGrip, #41 of 413 🔗

Can we deliver them TO certain death?

Didn’t mean that.

Not really.


17027 ▶▶▶▶ A Radcliffe, replying to GetaGrip, #42 of 413 🔗


17015 ▶▶▶ Kristian Short, replying to Adele Bull, 7, #43 of 413 🔗

Yes. The ‘dissenting’ wag from SAGE re the relaxation of guidelines, was given time on rad 4 news and quoted the 1% or 0.5% IFR in order to predict future daily deaths based on number of current cases. So it’s like we can’t have anyone die now?? That was never the plan!!

17041 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Adele Bull, 8, #44 of 413 🔗

They’re all fixed on the belief a second wave will come. That’s the problem with scientists now. They’re almost incapable of detaching themselves from the theory even if reality is punching them in the face.

17082 ▶▶▶▶ Nel, replying to Nobody2020, 3, #45 of 413 🔗

They’ve believed their own propaganda

17157 ▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Adele Bull, #46 of 413 🔗

Because it’s the agenda they have been told to follow.

16921 Ethelred the Unready, replying to Ethelred the Unready, 13, #47 of 413 🔗

If the ridiculously ‘soft’ revised furlough terms and timetable are anything to go by, this Government is simply not serious about getting folk back to work. They will remain as ‘scared’ to return as Rishi pays them to be, particularly given the weather!

16922 ▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Ethelred the Unready, 3, #48 of 413 🔗

My thoughts too. I suspect there will not be much impetus to open schools from Monday either.

16923 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Ethelred the Unready, 21, #49 of 413 🔗

I just don’t know wtf planet Boris et al think they -and we- are all living on.
Are we suddenly inhabiting a new world where jobs just magically reappear after being lost and children miraculously learn via osmosis?

16926 ▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Farinances, 11, #50 of 413 🔗

Not sure they ever learned that much at school in the first place. But it’s good for them to play with each other and good for their parents to get rid of them for a bit.

16932 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to guy153, 8, #51 of 413 🔗

School’s main function is as a childminding service now that, in so many cases, both parents need to work to keep a roof over their family’s heads.

16989 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Ethelred the Unready, 7, #52 of 413 🔗

I sometimes think we should be praying for rain and not just any rain but a rainfall of biblical proportions over the next few weeks or so….

That might get people back to work and social distancing to completely fall apart.

17040 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Ethelred the Unready, 4, #53 of 413 🔗

If you’re responsible for wrecking the economy and taking away people’s livelihoods the least you can do is prop it up for a while and hope people don’t notice it was your fault in the first place.

16927 DJ Dod, replying to DJ Dod, 30, #54 of 413 🔗

Der Spiegel reports that the ‘lockdown’ in Switzerland is to be ‘drastically’ relaxed – ‘discos can reopen, erotic services will be permitted’ – apparently Switzerland wants to get back to the old normal!

Theatres, cinemas, sporting events etc can resume from 6th June.


New cases have dropped rapidly, from about 1500 a day in March, to about 20 over the last few days. The Swiss Government’s special powers under the Epidemic Law will end on 19th June.

Lucky for some!

16931 ▶▶ Adele Bull, replying to DJ Dod, 12, #55 of 413 🔗

I’m moving to Switzerland

17024 ▶▶▶ TyRade, replying to Adele Bull, 2, #56 of 413 🔗

I’m moving bro Tanzania

16971 ▶▶ crimsonpirate, replying to DJ Dod, 2, #57 of 413 🔗

Holiday in Switzerland! It’s an odd country to be sure- the sex shop/wine bar hybrid is something I’ve never seen anywhere else

16986 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to crimsonpirate, #58 of 413 🔗


17000 ▶▶▶ South Coast Worker, replying to crimsonpirate, 1, #59 of 413 🔗

I’m sure they have other things to do as well…

17012 ▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to South Coast Worker, #60 of 413 🔗

Too pissed, too shagged out?

17038 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to crimsonpirate, #61 of 413 🔗

Clearly never been to Thailand.

17043 ▶▶ annie, replying to DJ Dod, 2, #62 of 413 🔗

Made me wonder … Are all British prostitutes currently on furlough? On 100% salary?

Will they shortly be allowed to do takeaways?

17067 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to annie, #63 of 413 🔗

Prostitutes being furloughed sounds a bit kinky to me. They can always follow the recent Swedish guidelines for sex during this pandemic.

Recommended positions are doggy and reverse cowgirl (some people may need to Google this) to accomodate for social distancing.

16928 djaustin, 3, #64 of 413 🔗

The FT plot should have been at least looked at deaths one and two weeks before lockdown date at the very least. To expect an instant response when social distancing had begun before lockdown is not helpful. The excess death data is bad enough already.

16933 Cheezilla, 24, #65 of 413 🔗

Vernon Coleman is awesome:





16938 Nigel Baldwin, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 11, #66 of 413 🔗

Someone posted this on yesterday’s thread published today: DM (yeuck) “ Mr Johnson’s suggestion that barbecues will be acceptable under the new regime has provoked particular anger with experts saying that in fact they are ‘really dangerous’.” Who are these bloody experts?

16995 ▶▶ Adele Bull, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 5, #67 of 413 🔗

Because of undercooked chicken? 🤔

17030 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 6, #68 of 413 🔗

They could be dangerous because of the following:

food poisoning

drunken brawls

accidentally swallowing a skewer

accidentally setting fire

facing the wrath of neighbours who don’t like the smell or barbecued meat or the noise or the dreadful choice in music

etc, etc.

Let’s face it a person might more likely succumb to food poisoning than Covid 19

17065 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Bart Simpson, 4, #69 of 413 🔗

A friend lit a fire on top of a flagstone a few years ago. All went well, until the flagstone exploded.

Yet another BBQ peril …

16939 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 7, #70 of 413 🔗


This rather interesting but also speculative article about possibility

“of a genetic mechanism that edit RNA, DNA or both, which suggests that this virus sequence hypermutation (VSH) mechanism may be an evolutionary defense weapon. They could either kill the virus but also attenuate the virus. Nothing prevents these new supposedly “innocuous” viruses to leave the host and, eventually, to propagate faster than the wild type. Perhaps, the VSH mechanism goal was never meant to kill the viruses in the first place (other mechanisms do this job), but to produce, within each infected cell, mutated strains that could be used to train the immune system killing-machine against the virulent wild type. If this conjecture proves right, then the immune system has a two-fold mission: to safeguard our organism by destroying the threatening agents and to protect our species, acting like a powerful vaccine factory”

The author doesn’t state it directly but Covid-19 could be such a mutated virus which was only meant to immunise persons hence the majority of infections are always asymptomatic (perfect vaccine of Mother Nature) but unfortunately, not that perfect, as a few can’t handle it immunologically and succumb.

There are probably many flaws in this reasoning which an amateur can’t spot but it looks intriguing.

16941 ▶▶ Gracie Knoll, replying to swedenborg, 18, #71 of 413 🔗

Good God! It almost sounds……I don’t know, call me crazy if you like…..but it almost sounds as if OUR IMMUNE SYSTEM KNOWS WHAT IT’S DOING! How weird is that? Nah, that can’t be right; world expert immunologist Bill Gates says so…..

16996 ▶▶ Hoppy Uniatz, replying to swedenborg, 2, #72 of 413 🔗

This is absolutely stunning. Clearly we owe it to society to try and catch the bug as soon as possible so our ancient, clever biology can process it into something more innocuous.

Toby I know it is killing you to have to read all these comments but please do read the link. Swedenborg, you should cross-post to r/LockdownSkepticism, possibly even to r/COVID19.

17017 ▶▶ Kristian Short, replying to swedenborg, 3, #73 of 413 🔗

Perhaps this coronavirus was developed as a vaccine?

16942 BTLnewbie, replying to BTLnewbie, 1, #74 of 413 🔗

As the last glowing embers of the virus seem to be dying in Europe, has anyone looked at South America and the impact of the different approaches taken there, from hard early lockdown in several, to lassez-faire (akin to Belarus?) in Brazil.

I see that there are only 2 SA countries in the FT’s chart on Toby’s page – yet each country there may be instructive. Is there a reader of this site in South America?

16979 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to BTLnewbie, #75 of 413 🔗

That’s a very interesting point. Not much talk at all of SA in general really. You’d expect to hear more about the bigger / more political concerns – Argentina, Ecuador, Peru etc.

17019 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Farinances, 3, #76 of 413 🔗

Death is only an issue when it reaches developed countries.

17055 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Farinances, 3, #77 of 413 🔗

Friend’s daughter has been confined to her hotel in a remote Peruvian town for a few weeks now. No booze allowed, armed police visits looking for evidence of smoking weed, UK embassy in chocolate teapot mode.

16944 crimsonpirate, replying to crimsonpirate, 2, #78 of 413 🔗


Toby has mentioned Gunnersbury park on more than one occasion.It’s the posh park where Chiswick people go to tut at other pedestrians if they don’t maintain 2 metre social distancing. Although there has been plenty of that it’s always been the park where local people go and can sit on a bench without fear of being busted or reported even from day one of the lock down. However no more. As a result of the fire at the cafe last night the whole park is now shut. Even when most of the park was used for functions such as Lovebox the majority of the park was kept open. As you can imagine this is not going down well.

16960 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to crimsonpirate, 1, #79 of 413 🔗

Fire at the cafe?

17037 ▶▶▶ crimsonpirate, replying to Farinances, 2, #80 of 413 🔗

yes, but at least they did save the Rothschild carriages

16947 John P, 4, #81 of 413 🔗

I’m emigrating to Tanzania …

16948 Farinances, replying to Farinances, 2, #82 of 413 🔗

Anyone else think Putin might be on board?

Russian health officials aren’t allowed to say stuff like that in public, off the record or not, without permission from their masters.

16949 ▶▶ John P, replying to Farinances, #83 of 413 🔗

Jealous much … ?

16955 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to John P, #84 of 413 🔗


16962 ▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to Farinances, #85 of 413 🔗

You think the UK is a free country?

16975 ▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to John P, #86 of 413 🔗

Not any more. – Gonna have to go some to beat Russia on that score though. I’ll concede though that Putin is currently holding Boris’s beer 🙁

17001 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ South Coast Worker, replying to Farinances, #87 of 413 🔗

I’ve never been to Russia so can’t comment. But when I’ve met Russians they don’t really seem the compliant type.

17020 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to South Coast Worker, 1, #88 of 413 🔗

That’s because you didn’t meet them in Russia 😉

16952 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Farinances, #89 of 413 🔗

(Interestingly enough, the woman doing that interview is actually a social media star and socialite who stood against Putin in the 2018 election. — Obviously she didn’t have a chance in hell, and her previously friendly if publically fractious relationship with Putin and his cronies has led many to label her as a stooge and a ‘fake opponent’ – possibly paid with a lucrative journalism job or two).

16951 annie, replying to annie, 34, #90 of 413 🔗

Sally Bloomfield, of the London School of Tropical Witchdoctery, is quoted (DT) as saying that ‘gathering for a meal is a really dangerous thing’ and warning against having barbecues.

Now I have always hated barbecues. I hate the smell of lighter fuel and burned fat, the half-cooked sausages, the paper plates and plastic forks, the chilly breeze that creeps along after sunset, the uncomfortable seating, the inadequate lighting and the midges.

But after hearing from dear Sally I have this overwhelming impulse to hold a barbecue and invite every lockdown sceptic in Britain. Come one one come all!

16953 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to annie, 3, #91 of 413 🔗

Bet Sally had great fun at Cheltenham though.

16954 ▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to annie, 8, #92 of 413 🔗

I hate BBQ’s too, when’s it happening and what’s your address? 🤣

17002 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Winston Smith, 4, #93 of 413 🔗

Eek. Have to put it off for a bit, I’m afraid. I’m in Wales – all approach roads blocked, visitors will be vaporised.

It will end…

17099 ▶▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to annie, 2, #94 of 413 🔗

It will 🤗 👍🏻

16965 ▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to annie, 2, #95 of 413 🔗

Looked her up on Wiki earlier. Conclusion – she is the academic version of Kim and Aggie!

16973 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 1, #96 of 413 🔗

Wonder if she has a cleaner? Who has continued to work during this ‘crisis’?

17004 ▶▶ Sarigan, replying to annie, 2, #97 of 413 🔗

You have not had a proper barbecue Annie. Never use lighter fuel, only use lump wood charcoal and learnt my trade through many excellent books such as Firefood. There is a joyous world of flavours to be discovered and the perfect opportunity to explore.

17010 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Sarigan, 2, #98 of 413 🔗

But what if I need the loo?

17011 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to South Coast Worker, 6, #100 of 413 🔗

Make it fun, she says.

Well, people used to have fun attending a public hanging.

17018 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to annie, 5, #101 of 413 🔗

Lol maybe we should start kidnapping politicians on their way back to parliament……

17058 ▶▶▶▶▶ Gossamer, replying to Farinances, 1, #102 of 413 🔗

When you do, Matt Hancock is mine. You can divvy up the rest of them.

17035 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to annie, 1, #103 of 413 🔗

Half cook the meat in your oven then finish it off on the BBQ. This also means you’re not serving one sausage at a time and people can actually get a proper plate of food all at once.

17122 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Nobody2020, 1, #104 of 413 🔗

Excellent advice, should I apply it to Matt Hancock?

16956 John P, replying to John P, -1, #105 of 413 🔗

Guy de la Bedoyere. I resent his implication that those like me who work from home – something I have done for ten years now – are not actually working from home at all.

I remember him from Channel 4’s Time Team. He was the Roman history expert. Lol, like archaeology is a proper job …

16957 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to John P, 3, #106 of 413 🔗

…… Jealous much?


16958 ▶▶▶ John P, replying to Farinances, -3, #107 of 413 🔗

lol, Toby, can I swear at this guy?

16963 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to John P, #108 of 413 🔗

I’m clearly a woman, and be my guest.

16967 ▶▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to Farinances, -5, #109 of 413 🔗

What? Your photo is 5mm. And no it’s not clear at all. Maybe is you used your name rather than a silly alias I would have realised. Whoever you are, get over yourself.

16972 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to John P, 5, #110 of 413 🔗

I’m not the one whose first post appears to have been a bash at a contributor and archeologists in general. Might wanna dial down that #bitterman

16974 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to Farinances, -6, #111 of 413 🔗

Look. I’m not reading your comments. I have no idea who you are. I replied to your comment about Putin. It was not meant as an insult to you.

Leave me alone please.

16983 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to John P, 1, #112 of 413 🔗

Then what the hell was the point? To make me realise I’m somehow….. jealous of Russians?

16968 ▶▶ IanE, replying to John P, 7, #113 of 413 🔗

I think he perhaps was referring to those who normally work at work (as it were) and who may now be claiming to work at home. Very hard to say what percentage, but plenty of teachers seem to be claiming to be working just as hard as normal – with rather little to show for it based on many reported parental comments!

16992 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to IanE, 2, #114 of 413 🔗

It’s weird how people have responded to working at home. Those who always have have just carried on, of course. But the newbies. They seem to have split into two groups – those who treat it as a doss, and those who find themselves doing more, because they don’t break off to chat / get distracted / have lunch with colleagues etc. like they would naturally do in the office. Of course the first lot aren’t talking about how much of a doss it is 😉 whereas the second lot are moaning that they’re doing more work than usual – so everyone seems to think everyone is doing more work than usual, when we can all see with our own eyes that they’re not. (I have two teachers next door and…. let’s just say they are now several shades darker than they were six weeks ago).

17022 ▶▶ Kristian Short, replying to John P, 1, #115 of 413 🔗

Big diff between those who work from home and those that have been temporarily forced to

16959 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 4, #116 of 413 🔗


Many have discussed the low level of Covid-19 antibodies in the general population. Not in prisons in Michigan.

“As of May 22, 92% of prisoners tested at Parnall were positive for antibodies, according to Chris Gautz, spokesman for the Michigan Department of Corrections. The department offered antibody blood tests to all prisoners at Parnall about two weeks ago. Of 1,248 people tested, Gautz said 1,148 were positive”

This newspaper article is not very good at presenting numbers. They seemed to have screened the entire 38000 prisoners first with PCR. Some confusing numbers of actually how many PCR positive ill prisoners and some deaths but the main focus is that the absolute majority seemed to have asymptomatic infection.

But how can anyone explain a 92 % antibody test positive from mainly asymptomatic persons?

16969 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to swedenborg, #117 of 413 🔗

Are prisons classed as….. nocosoc…. still can’t get that word right… environments? Would it spread there in the way it does in a hospital or care home?

17032 ▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Farinances, 1, #118 of 413 🔗

Yes it would spread fast and you might get 92% infection. But normally you don’t see antibody rates that high– they only get to about 33% or so even in crowded environments.

17031 ▶▶ guy153, replying to swedenborg, 4, #119 of 413 🔗

Very interesting. One obvious question is what antibody testing kits were they using.

Assuming it is a correct result, you do often seem to see some homogeneity of response in these closed environments. In the homeless shelter they found a very high percentage asymptomatic, higher than in the general population. I have heard anecdotes that often a whole household will tend to all have bad symptoms or all to have minimal symptoms.

This would fit with the idea of cross-immunity. You might find that almost everyone in a prison either was or wasn’t exposed to some previous pathogen, all together, so they would all have the same response.

So they may have all made the antibodies because they missed out on “Covid-18” or whatever it is lots of other people have had that means they don’t need them, or are using different ones.

Being asymptomatic isn’t necessarily correlated with having cross-immunity, although it makes sense that it would be– if your body recognizes the infection sooner it will eliminate it sooner. But sometimes having been exposed to something similar makes the infection from the new thing worse. It guess it might be this way around with COVID-19. But I think we need to see more confirmation of this. It may be that they did have “Covid-18” previously but that the test kit is giving false positives on the similar antibodies for that.

16961 Sam, replying to Sam, 18, #120 of 413 🔗

I think if I were to write down the emotion I feel whenever I hear such words as “permission” being used, it would be GRRRRR.

Exactly the same for me. “We’re not allowed to hug”, “we’re not allowed to go inside”, or now we can all be graciously grateful we’ve permission to go for as much exercise as we like, when exercise and fresh air are such basic, fundamental human needs to stay healthy .

Another basic, fundamental human need to stay healthy being social contact, of course. But again, we’re not allowed — and if you speak to those who are pro-lockdown, anyone flaunting the rules are idiots, are selfish people who don’t care about the lives of anyone else other than their own.

I care about the impact of these restrictions on the current and future health of people in this country and countries around the world, taking into account economic effects on health too. There are estimates of terrible consequences of lockdowns for millions of people worldwide, and yet we still have the most basic of permissions – 6 people gathering but not too close! – to visit people we care about. There’s been so much terrorising over coronavirus, do we still really need enforced distancing and not just have it recommended, not just use common sense? Yes, this virus has killed people, yes, let’s do something about that (though what about seasonal flu and all the other diseases out there that oh by the way could get worse due to lockdowns?), but why can’t we be treat like responsible sentient beings?

And then there’s the censoring, the politics… but yes, “permission”, GRRRRR.

16966 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Sam, 13, #121 of 413 🔗

It’s so frustrating! In the course of a few short weeks, the default setting has gone from civil liberties – do whatever you like, unless it’s harming anyone else – to don’t do anything, in case it harms anyone else.

I suppose the key there is ‘unless it’s harming anyone else’. Everyone now automatically assumes it IS harming everyone else. Because they are brainwashed.

17005 ▶▶▶ South Coast Worker, replying to Farinances, 10, #122 of 413 🔗

The media have been conditioning the public to think in binary terms for the last couple of decades, causing division and lack of rational thought. It’s coming home to roost now. Or could be another one of my nutty conspiracy theories.

17016 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to South Coast Worker, 5, #123 of 413 🔗

I don’t think you’re wrong. Binary terms means more conflict and more conflict means more sensationalism and more more sensationalism means more ratings/sales.

17247 ▶▶▶▶ Sam, replying to South Coast Worker, #124 of 413 🔗

I tend to agree too, the media reports in a way that there is always a right and a wrong, never the shades of grey (or colour, if you’re optimistic) that life is actually made up of.

17244 ▶▶▶ Sam, replying to Farinances, 1, #125 of 413 🔗

Yes, you’re right, it’s ‘unless it’s harming anyone else’. It’s sad how the harm of lockdowns seem to be almost constantly overlooked for their supposed benefit, ironically causing a lot of harm.

17029 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Sam, 12, #126 of 413 🔗

The fundamental basis of freedom is not requiring permission to do something.

A common argument people often make about curtailing of freedom is if you’re not doing anything wrong then you’ve nothing to worry about. People who think this are missing the point. Freedom is having the choice to do something even if you never plan to do it.

17121 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Nobody2020, 3, #127 of 413 🔗

People who think that are slaves and fools. They will allow the ‘anything wrong’ to be extended until nobody can do anything at all.

As in Wales right now.

16976 Peter Thompson, replying to Peter Thompson, 26, #128 of 413 🔗

A doctor writes . ” To be honest if I hadn’t had been on the end of 24/7 MSM hysteria and government insanity I wouldn’t have noticed there was a pandemic indeed the workload for the last 2 months has been amazingly light . . again I have seen people today who start off with… I know you are very busy doctor but….. at this point I want to scream “

16981 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Peter Thompson, 19, #129 of 413 🔗

I wish UK doctors/nurses/health professionals would start organising some sort of resistance like is happening in Germany. It would make a lot of difference if the public could see they weren’t all overworked and exhausted / in fear for their lives.

16987 ▶▶▶ Peter Thompson, replying to Farinances, 13, #130 of 413 🔗

Big difference is in Germany the doctors are fee for service . No surgery, no investigation , no money. In the UK the money flows even if the patients don’t , No incentive to see any patient or do any procedure…too dangerous you see.

16990 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Peter Thompson, 2, #131 of 413 🔗

Aaaaah, of course. Here’s me thinking the Teutonic docs had suddenly grown a backbone

17100 ▶▶▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to Farinances, 1, #132 of 413 🔗

I think the entire German population is more concerned then the British so perhaps there is a bit of both involved.

17102 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Saved To Death, #133 of 413 🔗

More concerned about covid or civil liberties?

17108 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to Farinances, 8, #134 of 413 🔗

civil liberties. Off the job of my head at the start polls were showing 33% opposed to lockdown compared to 5% here. There have been impressive sized protests much bigger then anything here weeks ago now.

Interestingly also this pandemic is not visible in their excess mortality figured.

17109 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to Saved To Death, #135 of 413 🔗

Sorry that should have been ‘pandemic’.

17128 ▶▶▶▶▶ Pebbles, replying to Farinances, 14, #136 of 413 🔗

Sorry Farinances, but your comment is pretty condescending. I am half Brit half German and whilst I have watched my fellow Brit swallow every government guideline without question, and doctors touting the official media guideline with absolutely no resistance, German doctors went against the grain as soon as the lockdown commenced there… Prof Bhakti, Prof B Schiffmann, Prof. Püschel, et. al. Demonstrations started as early as 01 April. How many demonstrations has Britain mustered..!? Oh… 1!?
I find it immensely tiring that people keep throwing Germany into the old Nazi bucket, whilst the education system there has enabled many young people to critically reflect on the past and the importance of the law, debate, discourse etc. by brutally confronting them with Nazi atrocities day in day out. Would you say the same of young British people…!? How far does their understanding of British colonial past go!? Britain has the same problem as America, always on the right side of history supposedly as the victor, therefore no self reflection possible or necessary. Look what happened in this country.. the powers-that-be threw the law out the window and the nation shrugged their shoulders and went to suckle on a bottle of wine (many of them) in their garden chairs. But yes sure, every single one of you would have defeated Hitler single handedly because the Brits “have a backbone”. Fucking hell am I tired of the modern day British nation absorbing the glory of WWII fighters whilst sitting on their arses getting fuck all done.

17162 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Shep, replying to Pebbles, 2, #137 of 413 🔗

I am beginning to learn that the ‘Hitler bad’ story is not the full story, Difficult subject to discuss as certain aspects of it are deemed illegal to even say. I guess everyone has access to a wide spectrum of sources via the internet to research the subject and draw their own conclusions. Just sayin)

17317 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Shep, 4, #138 of 413 🔗

Hitler and the Nazis were utterly evil, there can be no doubt about that! However, you are right, it is not the full story of WW2 and the roles of several nations through the conflict. If you are interested in that then I suggest watching the 1973 documentary series ‘The World at War’.. yes, it is a British production, but is actually very balanced overall, has interviews with survivors on both sides of the conflict – as was made 30 years after the end of it. And is simply the best documentary I have ever seen, on anything.

The way the German people were brainwashed into being Nazi supporters is frighteningly similar to what we have seen with covid. The propaganda techniques are all the same

17305 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Pebbles, #139 of 413 🔗

Well said, I agree. Having been to Germany recently, I can only speak positively about the people in general. The current generation cannot be judged arbitrarily on the sins of the past

The efficient stereotype is true though.. 😉

Plus, as both of my parents were Polish and were growing up and fought in WW2, I would have plenty of reasons to hold a prejudice.

17025 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Farinances, 6, #140 of 413 🔗

It’s funny because all the doctors I’ve seen being interviewed over the last few months have been pretty relaxed about it all. I’ve never had the impression that the hospitals were anywhere near breaking point.

17026 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Nobody2020, 7, #141 of 413 🔗

I want to know where the BBC are finding all their wide-eyed, teary and exhausted medical interviewees. On the Labour Party rolls I’m guessing…..

17045 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Farinances, 1, #142 of 413 🔗

… the victim is played by an actor.

17080 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Nobody2020, 3, #143 of 413 🔗

The Grad has pulled an “exhausted consultant” out of the hat tonight – just to balance your observation?

17103 ▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Cheezilla, 1, #144 of 413 🔗

Grad are just an extension of the BBC as far as I’m concerned.

17105 ▶▶▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to Cheezilla, 2, #145 of 413 🔗

Exhausted and fearing the ‘second wave’! Presumably a Guardian reading consultant now stuck in a positive feedback loop so perhaps the exhaustion is understandable,

17092 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Farinances, 3, #146 of 413 🔗

Clearly most of them are enjoying the break…. and don’t bloody care enough. Any economic downturn or depression… they’ll still be in a job

17111 ▶▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to ianp, 2, #147 of 413 🔗

Just imagine all those things they will be able to spend the pounds their paid on, ah wait a minute – actually I think there are many more tears to be shed by our heros.

17207 ▶▶ Anonymous Doctor, replying to Peter Thompson, #148 of 413 🔗

I am a surgeon in (removed, I don’t want to be identified) and have been skeptical of everything since the start.

Other than one hospital in my region, the rest have been quiet. Other than on-call weeks or weekends, I have been in maybe once or twice a week.

I have been very vocal that there will be no catastrophe since the start. Every week I said this and the response from others were “the peak will come next week, we are behind Italy on the curve”. Week after week I heard this. I have since stopped mentioning the peak. All I hear now is the second wave is coming.

Many doctors don’t care about the lockdown. We get paid regardless if we are not doing anything. If anything the lockdown is great for the work shy doctors. Hiding behind people’s fear to come to hospital means the hospital is essentially empty (though this has lead to deaths from something other than covid). For those of us who actually want to do something, we are hanging around bored senseless.

Many of the doctors that have been vocal on social media or on TV are essentially scare mongering. Many of them are repeating things they have read online, which is then reprinted as them having said it. Indeed one doctor from my hospital who was interviewed on a popular TV program was later told off by the department and personally phoned by the chief medical director for a blasting. Much of what they were saying about PPE shortages, ventilator shortages and being swamped with patients in my hospital was not true. Watching the interview you can clearly see that she was just spewing the concerns that were in the headlines, rather than their actual experience.

Here is my experience with the virus in a district general hospital that has had as many cases as the tertiary centres of the region.

There have been sick patients requiring ventilation, but no more than the usual. Majority of the patients recover and go home. Just because you are over 90 and you get the virus, it isn’t a death sentence (unless you had lots of co-morbidities beforehand, even then I have seen the number in my hospital, and they have done alright).

Having even a bit of a tickly throat or a runny nose was enough to get people a week or two off from work initially (a lot of doctors were doing this). They would return and say they definitely had covid (despite no test). Once the testing was being rolled out for symptomatic people, again people who said they had covid were having symptoms again (majority were negative), so another week off. Also many doctors live together (sometimes 4-5 in the same house). This meant that if one doctor had symptoms, three of their mates were off as well. This created staff shortages (but the hospital isn’t that busy anyway), but people still moaned they were short staffed.
For those doctors that tested positive none of them became deathly unwell (some were tested after an outbreak on a ward, where many of the elderly patients were asymptomatic, but tested prior to discharge). However some who tested positive and were “unwell”, were still well enough to travel over 200 miles to their partners home to have 2 weeks off (forcing their partner who is also a doctor to then isolate)
I wash my hands like any doctor would before the lockdown, opting for gloves when examining as I normally would. I only wear full PPE if a nurse is literally badgering me or it is the covid ward/ITU. Otherwise I rarely wear a mask, I openly mock those that do. I don’t need protection, I would happily french kiss a covid positive patient if it ended the lockdown. I have been around many later proven covid positive patients without full PPE, I have been fine this entire time.
I know the head line has been that “a builder wouldn’t be allowed on building site without protection, thus NHS staff should have PPE”. However I have fully functioning immune system which has served me exceptionally well up until now, I don’t think a stuffy mask is going to make much difference

Admissions are the lowest I have ever seen them. Doctors are sat in the mess playing cards (ignoring social distancing, because we have nowhere else to go and we aren’t allowed home if there is nothing to do).

And with regards to a to vaccine, bugger it. All the vaccines we offer routinely (MMR, Polio, Tetanus etc), are for diseases that are far worse than this covid. Corona viruses are common (not many doctors knew up until this covid business that there is a seasonal corona virus). In the end this covid is a self limiting respiratory disease, that severely affects a small number of people. Let nature take its course and let the health service deal with the small minority that need the attention.

16978 Michael Fereday, replying to Michael Fereday, 6, #149 of 413 🔗

The corona scamdemic … mass exportation of communism

17021 ▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Michael Fereday, 3, #150 of 413 🔗

That is the political stance of many of the key architects of ‘the science’ and their institutional backers

17301 ▶▶ ianp, replying to Michael Fereday, #151 of 413 🔗

Or…. Heres Longer game behind it … Raised awareness of China CCP and it’s desire to dominate the world. Remember that only china and north Korea are communist states to my knowledge and nobody else in their right minds wants to be in such a horrifying totalitarian system.

At least this is what I hope.

If you are right, then we are all fucked

16991 GetaGrip, 28, #152 of 413 🔗

Had (another) ‘urgent’ corona-call – this one from a healthy under 40 year old having an anxiety attack, having found out he spoke to someone briefly who had since tested positive for the virus.

Bodes well for track and trace calls.

Politicians should take the Hippocratic Oath – ‘First Do No Harm’. Rather than the Hipocritic one.

Although I’d like to suspend mine for a few minutes and smack Boris F’ing Johnson in the mouth.

17009 ▶▶ John P, replying to Allyouneedtoknow, 2, #154 of 413 🔗

Thanks. It’s interesting and reassuring to see Tony Robbins’ view on this. Eckhart Tolle who is a bit more “spiritual” than Robbins has a similar view, but a different take.

Ultimately, and while I do think it is rational to believe the virus is real, the real issue at hand with this is fear.

17096 ▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to John P, 5, #155 of 413 🔗

Surely the real issue is the media and government creating fear and the fact that there is no sign they will be held to account for the devastation that has resulted.

17120 ▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Saved To Death, 1, #156 of 413 🔗

They sill be. zOh yes.

Don’t forget Simon Dolan’s judicial review. It is grinding on. Whatever comes if it, it’s a sign of deviance and it’s a start.

17263 ▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to annie, 1, #157 of 413 🔗

Sorry, meant ‘defiance’. But ‘deviance p’ isn’t far out in the present climate.

17006 Tom Blackburn, replying to Tom Blackburn, 5, #158 of 413 🔗

Has anyone got a picture of the SAGE minutes which reference increasing the fear of ‘personal threat’? I’m scouring Google for it without success

17008 ▶▶ annie, replying to Tom Blackburn, 6, #159 of 413 🔗

I posted the full text on yesterday’s comments.

Link to the original on Peter Hitchens’s blog.

An absolutely appalling document.

17028 ▶▶▶ Nic, replying to annie, 5, #160 of 413 🔗

Wish SAGE would fuck off! They hate us look down on us they are luving the power! I despise them.

17044 ▶▶▶ Tom Blackburn, replying to annie, 1, #161 of 413 🔗

Got it. Thanks

17074 ▶▶ A HUG IS HEALTH, replying to Tom Blackburn, #162 of 413 🔗

It’s on UK Column.

17013 Dave #KBF, 4, #163 of 413 🔗

Nipped into Lincoln again today…

Only one person wearing a face covering, but probably only saw 50 or so people, 4PM on a lovely sunny summer Friday.

High Street was dead, I noted a small ice cream parlour was open, only two people queueing, I doubt those sales will pay the business rates.

M&S open because they sell food, The part where the clothes are located was in darkness so I assume you can only buy food.

None of the bars or pubs are open, one small restaurant had a sign saying they are doing takeaways, but I did not see or smell any sign that they are prepping food.

Very very few people in the town, virtually no road traffic, railway station like a ghost town.

But from Monday everything will change, some primary school children back at school, car show rooms open, drive through Maccy Ds open, open air markets can resume.

Think I will hibernate from now on.

17033 karate56, replying to karate56, 25, #164 of 413 🔗

Another modeller to despise – John Edmunds. What is it about SAGE when they don’t get their own way? He advises not to ease lockdown, he’s not in a majority so what does he do? Publishes his opinion in the press, tries to tell everyone he knows best and the government, in their ignorance, are murderers. Another”scientist” added to my list of cunt extrordinaires. Its now a fucking huge list

17034 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to karate56, 8, #165 of 413 🔗

You can be like the Lord High Excecutioner from “The Mikado”

I’ve lost respect for scientists as well. Whoever said that gone are the days of the independent scientist is right, this current sorry excuse of a bunch are certainly not interested in the truth, not interested in listening to other viewers but think they are gods.

Down with this sort of thing!

17087 ▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to Bart Simpson, 7, #166 of 413 🔗

They are not actually scientists and so shouldn’t be referred to as such. There are many appropriate titles for them.

17179 ▶▶▶▶ Old fred, replying to Saved To Death, 2, #167 of 413 🔗

Agree – Had a look a while ago at who is on SAGE and was surprised to see it contained quite a few ‘behavioural scientists’, or something akin to this. Inclusion of these sorts of so-called scientists is, to me , something Communist Russia or East Germany would have been proud of and is more about controlling the population than anything else.

Not impressed by the others on SAGE either – seems they are all unaware of HK Flu back in the late 60’s, which was worse than this. 1.2% economic growth back then despite it – whereas 13% decline this time around. Time to disband the whole committee.

17119 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Bart Simpson, 4, #168 of 413 🔗

And all the so-called experts who on halfwit rules insist

They never would be missed, they never would be missed.

Oh, for a Gilbert right noe.

17142 ▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to annie, 3, #169 of 413 🔗

Brilliant. I’ve updated my version to include your little contribution:


As some day it may happen that a victim must be found

I’ve got a little list — I’ve got a little list

Of this pandemic that we’ve gone OTT

And who never would be missed — who never would be missed!

There’s the pestilential media who write for autographs —

All newsreaders who shout apocalyptic headlines —

Piers Morgan and Susanna Reid —

Those daily briefings and those irritating questions —

And all the so-called experts who on halfwit rules insist

They never would be missed, they never would be missed.

And Mike Hancock and his absurd slogans —

They’d none of ’em be missed — they’d none of ’em be missed!


He’s got ’em on the list — he’s got ’em on the list;

And they’ll none of ’em be missed — they’ll none of ’em be missed


There’s Professor Lockdown, and Imperial College

And his dodgy spunk trumpet — I’ve got her on the list!

And all the so-called experts who on halfwit rules insist

They never would be missed, they never would be missed.

Then the idiot who praises, with enthusiastic tone

All centuries but this, and every country but his own;

And the NHS as a state religion

And the public who clap like seals

And that singular anomaly, the dancing nurses —

I don’t think they’d be missed — I’m sure they’d not be missed!


He’s got her on the list — he’s got her on the list;

And I don’t think she’ll be missed — I’m sure she’ll not be missed!


And the lockdown zealots, who just now is rather rife

The snitcher and self-righteous — I’ve got him on the list!

All social distancing, bank robber wannabes and dirty looks —

They’d none of ’em be missed — they’d none of ’em be missed

And tourist boards, unions and teachers too scared to face the world

And those furloughed at 80 per cent and love a freebie

And those accusing sceptics of wanting more to die

I’m sure there are more you want to put upon the list

But it really doesn’t matter whom you put upon the list

For they’d none of ’em be missed — they’d none of ’em be missed!


You may put ’em on the list — you may put ’em on the list;

And they’ll none of ’em be missed — they’ll none of ’em be missed!

17175 ▶▶▶▶▶ Annabel Andrew, replying to Bart Simpson, 1, #170 of 413 🔗

Made me laugh -Thank you!

17204 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Annabel Andrew, 1, #171 of 413 🔗

You’re welcome 🙂

17047 ▶▶ Hammer Onats, replying to karate56, 4, #172 of 413 🔗

They should have made these “experts” subject to the Official Secrets Act. Or simple take their salary off them if they go blabbing to the press – that would soon shut them up. It’s easy to insist on keeping lockdown going when in receipt of 100% of your public sector salary.

17054 ▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to karate56, 5, #173 of 413 🔗

Sir Jeremy Farrar (Wellcome Trust) also on SAGE, just come out to say the same. That’s now two of them. Suggest we ignore and get on with life

17127 ▶▶▶ karate56, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 5, #174 of 413 🔗

His very name, without ever meeting or knowing him, means he’s now also on my list. He’s actually mentioned an 8th wave in his past press releases, never mind 2nd. A twat without compare.

17063 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to karate56, 5, #175 of 413 🔗

They’re keeping up the doomsday predictions so if the numbers creep up even slightly they can say it’s starting.

17116 ▶▶ Digital Nomad, replying to karate56, 2, #176 of 413 🔗

You mean you didn’t learn your lesson when they told you the science on ‘global warming’ had been settled?

17046 Alan J Hamilton, #177 of 413 🔗

If anyone hasn’t read the piece by Michael Hurley called ‘Land of Fear and Loathing’ then I suggest you read it NOW!
Just saying!

17048 Hammer Onats, replying to Hammer Onats, 7, #178 of 413 🔗

Meantime, in Sturgeon’s Scotland, the imbeciles in local authorities refuse to open car parks in case people use them! They really are fucking idiots.

17076 ▶▶ A HUG IS HEALTH, replying to Hammer Onats, #179 of 413 🔗

Glasgow Green tomorrow 12.00pm.

17170 ▶▶ Shep, replying to Hammer Onats, #180 of 413 🔗

strange people, actively working against you but paid for by you. noticed that lidl were selling cordless angle grinders for £20 the other day.

17049 Cheezilla, 5, #181 of 413 🔗

Yeesh! I’ve been browsing here for quite a while and just had a quick visit to the Grad to see what the latest official MSM headlines are. It’s utterly insane in there!

17050 Lena, replying to Lena, 14, #182 of 413 🔗

Amazes me how many people are suddenly devotees of Government advice and will strictly not be within 2m of another human being. I seem to remember Government advice also mentioning not eating too much and getting enough exercise, and yet 63% of adults are overweight…perhaps if people followed the Government advise to take care of themselves properly they might not fear a mild respiratory disease so much?

17093 ▶▶ ianp, replying to Lena, 7, #183 of 413 🔗

It’s funny that the majority of people claim to have gained weight during the lockdown… I have zero sympathy for them.

17114 ▶▶▶ Gossamer, replying to ianp, 4, #184 of 413 🔗

Goes to show how much they *really* care about their health…

17138 ▶▶▶▶ Hoppy Uniatz, replying to Gossamer, 2, #185 of 413 🔗

I think I’ve lost weight. I stopped eating sugar when the lockdown started because it looked as if dentists would be shut. Mind you I’m drinking a lot more

17052 4096, replying to 4096, 1, #186 of 413 🔗

Does anyone know if there are any lockdown protests planned for this weekend in Glasgow?

17077 ▶▶ A HUG IS HEALTH, replying to 4096, 2, #187 of 413 🔗

Glasgow Green 12.00pm.

17113 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to A HUG IS HEALTH, -6, #188 of 413 🔗

You probably mean 12 noon. 😉 Sorry, professional pedantry slipping through.

17403 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to JohnB, #189 of 413 🔗

Seven downvotes ?! Someone has too much time on their hands …

17056 swedenborg, 11, #190 of 413 🔗


One could always look at this updated graph each day of Covid-19 deaths in England just to see how meaningless the lockdown has been. The peak of death is April 8th and with 20 days between peak of infection and peak of death placing us definitely before the lockdown 23rd March.

Lately I noticed a light blue pillar below in the graph. This seems to be death of Covid-19 without positive test result of Covid-19. These are the ghost patients dying as a Covid-19 case without having Covid-19! In the only scenario I can think of, for a clinician stating Covid-19 death in a patient without taking a Covid-19 test, would be perhaps in a nursing home with several cases dying simultaneously in a similar clinical picture and not having time to PCR test all of them. But frankly I think most of these ghost patients are false cases, as there has not been any lack of testing capacity especially since they seem to happen from late of April. Very difficult to calculate how many but could be 100-200.And this is not even the whole UK picture!

When they want to scare us they would be included in the total death toll, and when they want to boast of the effective NHS they will be subtracted!

17057 GetaGrip, 26, #191 of 413 🔗

Scotland Calling.

It remains closed.

Although our local big Tesco is obviously open and it has clothes, household stuff and all manner of general shite. But I’m fine with it – I was desperate for a pair of laces for my boots. But it is somewhat taking the piss, no?

Burger King as takeaway opened in Elgin – big big big car queue lovely to see. Bending those rules chaps – Sturgeon will be having a conniption fit, hopefully.

The shop which fixes chainsaws and groundsy-stuff opened! Got mine back with shiny new chain – nice one lads.

Despite the instruction that ‘outdoor work’ can start, Forestry and Land are still ‘working from home’, and the car parks taped off. That’ll be psychic grounds maintenance and tree felling I guess? You lazy bastards.

Costa is still shut – WTF! The rules allow you to flog lousy coffee and we need this to sustain our illegal trips out.

Trying to book the Landy in for a service. The usual quick appt – no can do. Some call centre in Perth – I will be contacted with a date and time that it can be done iaw social distancing requirements….OK, but last time there was about 200 yards between me and the mechanic and the car and I booked without a faff….

School? August maybe. Well it’s a vocation isn’t it? Or maybe I mean a vacation.

Dentist? No, unless it’s stuff which can be sorted with a pair of pliers. Not their fault really – their CDO is a useless dipstick.

GP? Phone chat only. OK, but mum’s has some symptoms which are a bit concerning and could do with a ‘hands-on’. I say that as GP.

Although Winston the Beagle gets a dog-to-vet check for his ailments while I stay in car, with a prompt debrief therafter. Excellent, given the restrictions.

It seems that those with the WILL TO DO, do,. and those for whom it’s one big fucking taxpayer funded holiday continue taking the piss.

17059 assoc, 1, #192 of 413 🔗

That’s one hell of a scar that Prof Edmunds is sporting. He’s a bit too young to have got it duelling at Heidelberg – any idea how he acquired it?

17060 JohnB, replying to JohnB, 27, #193 of 413 🔗

Thought we’d go for a sunset walk by the seaside this evening.

Driving to Seaford, just before the city limits, was a portakabin cafe in a layby that had been graffiti-ed on three sides –

Fake pandemic !

Covid is a myth !

Turn off the TV !

Cheered us up. We stopped to take photos on the way home. 🙂

17097 ▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to JohnB, 3, #194 of 413 🔗

Please post a photo.

17112 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Dave #KBF, 1, #195 of 413 🔗

I’ll have a go tomorrow. If the internet breaks, it will be your fault Dave …

17215 ▶▶▶▶ anon, replying to JohnB, #196 of 413 🔗

Don’t forget to remove the exif data before you post (if you wish to retain some anonymity of course)

17245 ▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to anon, #197 of 413 🔗

That would require me to know wtf exif data is, and how to remove it, anon. 🙂

17352 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to JohnB, 1, #198 of 413 🔗

Try these – one learns something new every day. 🙂


17118 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Dave #KBF, #201 of 413 🔗

Yes! Yes!

17062 Nobody2020, replying to Nobody2020, 3, #202 of 413 🔗


I’ve not read the minutes so can’t confirm how accurate this summary is. Few things stood out for me:

10 March – There is also an acknowledgment of the looming crisis to come in care homes. “Sage advised that special policy consideration be given to care homes and various types of retirement communities.”

26 March – The meeting hears that nosocomial transmission – the spread of Covid-19 in hospitals – needs urgent attention. Advisers re-emphasise “the importance of urgently ramping up testing of appropriate quality”.

9 April – The meeting is told that the epidemic may be reaching its peak, but could remain at a plateau for some time.

14 April -The meeting hears that the R-value of the epidemic is probably between 0.5 and 1 – but that relatively small changes to social distancing measures could push R back above 1. [6 weeks ago!]

However, the spread of infection within hospitals is making up an increasing proportion of cases and care homes are also flagged as a concern, with Sage noting the lack of data available.

5 May – Sage calls or a focus on reducing transmission in health and care settings. It is “necessary to reduce transmission in care homes and hospitals in order to effectively manage the epidemic”. [See March 10th]

Sage says relaxing lockdown measures should not happen until new cases have dropped to a low level – not on a fixed date.

17073 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Nobody2020, 17, #203 of 413 🔗

“Sage says relaxing lockdown measures should not happen until new cases have dropped to a low level – not on a fixed date.”

And yet they want to ramp up testing – meaning they will continually find new cases. The more tests, the more cases. – Even though most cases are asymptomatic and largely inconsequential given that the vast majority of people aren’t going in and out of hospitals or care homes every day, where the vulnerable who catch it off them could die.

“However, the spread of infection within hospitals is making up an increasing proportion of cases and care homes are also flagged as a concern, with Sage noting the lack of data available.”

Lack of data? They had weeks of data from Spain and Italy who had major problems with care home deaths and presumably also hospital transmission. I don’t get it. Were these people not watching their own state sponsored news broadcasts??

17079 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Farinances, #204 of 413 🔗

Good summation!

17085 ▶▶▶ coalencanth12, replying to Farinances, 13, #205 of 413 🔗

I think there are two effects here:

Scientifically illiterate cabinet and advisors – no idea how to use science effectively

Nutty scientists trying to push fringe ideas into the main such as these demented social bubbles

17240 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Farinances, 1, #206 of 413 🔗

Major problems in hospitals and care homes, so the answer is more lockdown….?

17071 Nobody2020, replying to Nobody2020, 8, #207 of 413 🔗

Found this article in the NY Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/29/sports/coronavirus-survivors-athletes.html

I’ve heard people saying that COVID-19 is worse than flu because survivors also get long term side effects. Out of curiosity I decided to look up potential side effects from surviving flu and turns out Flu and CV19 are pretty similar in that respect:


17072 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Nobody2020, 6, #208 of 413 🔗

I know someone who had flu as a kid and now has issues with her lungs. So…. yeah. I can imagine flu is still worse in that respect because kids do get it way more, and growing kids’ bodies are weaker.

17166 ▶▶ daveyp, replying to Nobody2020, 4, #209 of 413 🔗

I had severe flu for 3 weeks during xmas 1999 and the new year. I couldn’t get myself out of bed during that time time, and the flu left me with chest problem and missed heart beats that lasted for a year. Fortunately, I was 23 at the time a very physically active and was told by a cardiologist that I probably wouldn’t have survived it otherwise.

17075 Nobody2020, replying to Nobody2020, 1, #210 of 413 🔗

More insight into the thinking behind the Scottish approach (Devi is an advisor to the Scottish Government):


17078 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Nobody2020, 3, #211 of 413 🔗

Devi Sridhar is a snake!

17083 ▶▶ coalencanth12, replying to Nobody2020, 1, #212 of 413 🔗

She is another one of these with a rather sinister Twitter account!!!

17217 ▶▶▶ anon, replying to coalencanth12, #213 of 413 🔗

How so? And who are the others?

17081 coalencanth12, replying to coalencanth12, #214 of 413 🔗
17094 ▶▶ ianp, replying to coalencanth12, #215 of 413 🔗

Lol… More gold dust to add to the growing collection. Forward it to the apathetic out there ..

17262 ▶▶ annie, replying to coalencanth12, 1, #216 of 413 🔗

I’d die laughing if I wasn’t so sorry for his family, and his dog.

But he’s only an extreme example of the way all the zombies are behaving. And that remains true even if it is a spoof.

17084 Markus, replying to Markus, -5, #217 of 413 🔗


Study is speculating of the correlation between 5g networks and covid-outbreaks. Obviously it shows some correlation, numbers don’t lie. I havent really studied the 5G radiaton so cant really tell whether this is pure nonsense. Maybe we learn more when the network gets built wider, will we see correlating outbreaks again.

17163 ▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Markus, 2, #218 of 413 🔗

Lots of good information on EMFs and their effects on the human body, been known about since the start of the electrification of rural America. On the website you link to did you go to the “microwave illnesses” page? Very interesting and bet you know people who suffer without knowing it.

I spent 10 year studying it as wife getting steadily iller and mainstream medicos were hopeless. She has electro-magnetic hypersensitivity and yes it does exist.

See by your votes you’ve hit a nerve so here is a +1.

17164 ▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Awkward Git, -1, #219 of 413 🔗

Strange, hit the thumbs up tab the votes went from -6 to -7. Something playing silly buggers.

17220 ▶▶▶▶ anon, replying to Awkward Git, #220 of 413 🔗

Fat fingers? Press the up button a few more times.

These buttons are next to useless for me (on a tablet)

17308 ▶▶▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to anon, #221 of 413 🔗

I even made sure I had my glasses on for once. Will try it again and see what happens.

Toby – if you server crashes it was me pressing the wrong button at them wrong time, sorry.

17086 coalencanth12, replying to coalencanth12, 23, #222 of 413 🔗

I have had enough. I am thinking of getting on a *train* tomorrow (you know that thing we subsidise quite heavily for the greater good) and walking along the Thames. It’s time to pull the bricks down, one by one.

17098 ▶▶ ianp, replying to coalencanth12, 25, #223 of 413 🔗

I’ve been seeing a particular pious sign on the entrance to a small playing field on my daily bike ride which is getting my goat. Tomorrow may have to be the day I take matters into my own hands and rip the fucker down

17104 ▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to ianp, 18, #224 of 413 🔗

Do it! We went to for family walk the other day and there was a ‘Stay Home etc’ sign on a bin and I tore it off and put it in the bin….. so cathartic!

17117 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to ianp, 7, #225 of 413 🔗

Give it a kick on my behalf.

17181 ▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to ianp, 6, #226 of 413 🔗

Yes, do it. We removed 3 preachy Canal and River Trust notices which told everyone to stay off the tow-path and were widely ignored anyway, even during the height of the panic. The C &RT mystically failed to take them down when the lock-up was ‘eased’ so we were happy to help!

17190 ▶▶▶▶ coalencanth12, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 2, #227 of 413 🔗

Glad to hear – I’m thinking I might walk between Osney and Kennington locks, we shall see

17241 ▶▶▶▶ Paul, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, #228 of 413 🔗

Some of those on the canal near me,they really get my back up,it’s quite possible the wind might blow them away later today.

17089 JohnB, 1, #229 of 413 🔗

Just read Michael Hurley’s piece in full. “… man on the moon.” my arse.

17090 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 14, #230 of 413 🔗

Published 20th May New Engl J Med


“We know that wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection. Public health authorities define a significant exposure to Covid-19 as face-to-face contact within 6 feet with a patient with symptomatic Covid-19 that is sustained for at least a few minutes (and some say more than 10 minutes or even 30 minutes). The chance of catching Covid-19 from a passing interaction in a public space is therefore minimal. In many cases, the desire for widespread masking is a reflexive reaction to anxiety over the pandemic.”

17091 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to swedenborg, 12, #231 of 413 🔗

The fact that ‘to mask’ aka ‘masking’ has become a commonly used verb in the media is freaking me out. Like ‘medalling’ did during the Olympics.

17148 ▶▶ daveyp, replying to swedenborg, 4, #232 of 413 🔗

When I take the dogs for a walk, the reaction of people on the same path as you is amazing, virtually no one walks past, they will either turn off the path, cross the road, take a massively wider line if in a field, I even had one lady the other day who walked to the corner of the filed with her hands up, absolutely bizarre behaviour!

People really have been drinking the Kool-Aid!

17238 ▶▶▶ Paul, replying to daveyp, 3, #233 of 413 🔗

Yes,I’ve been getting that reaction for weeks aswell on countryside footpaths.The usual sequence of events is,person spots you from about 100 yards away,stops instantly,stares at you for a bit,looks behind themselves pondering retreat,looks back at you,thinking are you going to retreat ?,if a couple they have a quick discussion,then,because I am now approaching rapidly,they take drastic action,usually 50/50 turn around or go about 30 feet away into the crops.The most frightening thing of all for them is when I say hello,some of the looks I get in return could kill !.Bizarrely the same behaviour is exhibited when they are going in the same direction as me and catch up .

17260 ▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to daveyp, 3, #234 of 413 🔗

In contrast I walked three miles along our sea front promenade yesterday. Hundreds of people out and I saw one mask, worn by a woman aged about 20. No-one swerved, no-one dodged out of the way, no-one cared. And not many were mingling on the beach in ‘same household groups’ as far as I could tell.

17309 ▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to daveyp, #235 of 413 🔗

What was the drink in Idiocracy? I think that’s been put in the tap water.

Will have to get out my old DVD and watch it again this weekend.

17533 ▶▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Awkward Git, #236 of 413 🔗

Brawndo. !!! 😁

17095 swedenborg, 14, #237 of 413 🔗

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/01/health/flu-deaths-vaccine.html?smid=tw-share“Over 80,000 Americans Died of Flu Last Winter, Highest Toll in Year Among the dead were 180 babies, children and teenagers, more than in any year since the C.D.C. began tracking pediatric deaths”New York Times Oct 2018The Covid-19 deaths in the same age group above? Much smaller.

And no lockdown

17101 Farinances, 6, #238 of 413 🔗

Great video by this guy who…. actually I have no idea who he is, I think he’s a writer, but he’s made loads of good ones.


Great footage included in this of Fauci wildly contradicting himself. These American medics/governors make our lot look like puddytats.

17106 mark baker, replying to mark baker, 14, #239 of 413 🔗


There’s science and then there’s science, right? The science behind building a bridge is pretty sound – if it isn’t then the bridge falls down. But then there’s ‘modelling’- which is given the stamp of ‘science’ and expertise but is much less precise. Amounts to ‘educated guesswork’. I get the impression though that ‘scientists’ who engage in the second kind of ‘science’ don’t want to admit that. I wish they would. It would make the whole debate a lot clearer.

17107 ▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to mark baker, 10, #240 of 413 🔗

‘modelling’ is a tool, like any tool it can be dangerous when used by imbeciles.

17123 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to mark baker, 4, #241 of 413 🔗

I’d be interested to see the modelling tested against countries that have already opened. I’ve yet to see any modeller stand up and say the reality is going exactly as they modelled it.

17236 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Nobody2020, #242 of 413 🔗

Yes, I wish I could run the models used by our government against other countries, at the time before the opened up, and see what they predicted. If you look at the Imperial models now they seem to be predicting that the disease will follow the curve it is already on, in all countries where they are over the worst of it.

17124 ▶▶ Alice, replying to mark baker, 3, #243 of 413 🔗

“All models are wrong, but some are useful.”

When the models being used to justify lockdown were proven to be completely wrong they stopped being useful.

17182 ▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to mark baker, #244 of 413 🔗

I like differentiate ‘science’ from ‘Science!’

17110 Hopeful, 28, #245 of 413 🔗

Just read the latest covid19 ‘can-do, can’t do’ pages on gov. website. Didn’t know whether to laugh or cry. Talk about treating us like children. Part of me thinks this is some civil servants high on meth or some-such just larking around, it’s that nonsensical. Then of course we have the other bunch of civil servants writing loads of draconian laws. They’re just high on power and control. Brilliant assessment yesterday by UK Column news of where we’re at 10 weeks after lock down began. Why? Why are we still locked down, why the social distancing stupidity, why all the workplace adjustments, why the masks, and why the cruel set-up for our school children? Madness.

17115 Claudia Vivarelli, replying to Claudia Vivarelli, 10, #246 of 413 🔗

With the greatest respect to all those who have died of Covid 19.. and to the hardworking medical staff, I don’t think most of us are at all aware of the enormous impact this whole sh** **ow is going to have on our finances.. the biggest hoax the world has ever seen

17275 ▶▶ anon, replying to Claudia Vivarelli, 1, #247 of 413 🔗

Aye but there’s method behind the madness.

It’s a big club and you ain’t in it!

17125 hotrod, replying to hotrod, 1, #248 of 413 🔗

Are we now at a watershed moment?

With the MSM news today suggesting that easing lockdown is a political decision, this now goes well or it proves that it is not safe to ease lockdown.

If the R rate and death grows significantly then the decision to ease now to protect and deflect away from the Cummings debacle will bring down the government.

On the flip side if we don’t see any risks then we could be back to old normal sooner than any of us expected.

The one thing that bugs me now is this ONS 8000 per day figure, is that really 8000 new cases per day as that figure seems quite different from the daily briefing figure.

Trust me I want this lockdown over as much as anyone but these SAGE advisors don’t get to gain anything by urging caution and they are clearly very intelligent and qualified scientists, hence their reticence does bear some more scrutiny.

17129 ▶▶ karate56, replying to hotrod, 8, #249 of 413 🔗

They do have things to gain – making themselves look infallible and the government incompetent. Their press releases are again detailing data derived from models, which are widely known as shit. The government has every right to ignore them, I don’t believe this is Cummings related (it may be partially), I just think the government realises the country has to wake up. Funny how these SAGE advisors don’t consider anything other than Covid 19 in their bile (cancer, heart disease, rafts of other terminal illnesses that can be but haven’t been prevented). To them Covid 19 is god, any other health is issue down the toilet. They maybe need to think about that when they seek publicity to save face or damage government

17131 ▶▶▶ hotrod, replying to karate56, #250 of 413 🔗

So this new ONS 8000 new cases per day number….is that from modelling or from testing?

Also I don’t buy why such senior and established scientists would sacrifice their whole careers just to look justified in creating lockdown. What were they doing before Covid19 became an issue? Surely they were well established members of the scientific and medical world, so why this suddenly urge for press attention?

I truly believe that they are worried and that has to be for some good reason.

As I say I want lockdown to end but if we were following the science previously and now we are not to protect Cummings then we all have the right to ask that question.

17133 ▶▶▶▶ EmbraFlaneur, replying to hotrod, 2, #251 of 413 🔗

I’m not sure but I think the “8k cases/ day” may be derived from the ONS infection study:


which suggests there are 54k cases per week which works out at just under 8k (nearer 7700) per day.

17137 ▶▶▶▶ karate56, replying to hotrod, 7, #252 of 413 🔗

Its modelled. If it was tested it would be in official documents and presented each day. There can be no absolute confidence in this figure based on what is still not known about transmission (biology, behaviour, etc).
Being senior or established doesn’t make them infallible. A lot are academics with a raft of interests and motives, competencies. I’ve worked with some of the best synthetic chemists and natural product specialists in perhaps the world, yet you’d struggle to find anyone who would think their opinions utterly correct and not flawed on matters in their field.
I agree with you, these SAGE scientists may have concerns for good reason – does that necessitate them going to the press? It requires total confidence in what they’re saying being correct, how is that possible with a disease a few months old? They also need to counter balance their concerns against other non covid issues which are exaccerbated by continuous lockdown. They can call for further lockdown, but surely lives depend on it being lifted, quite urgently

17150 ▶▶▶▶▶ hotrod, replying to karate56, 2, #253 of 413 🔗

Thanks. So if it is modelled then the MSM need to make that clearer as the messages are mixed and confusing people. That isn’t fair, people have already suffered enough and when we start to see some light at end of tunnel the so called science decides to further confuse. Would be useful for Witty and Valance to be more honest on their real views now, else they are merely puppets for Dom.

So if Sweden and Norway are not testing why are we?

Surely this is counter productive?

17159 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to hotrod, 3, #254 of 413 🔗

I agree the MSM and the government ought to be much clearer on this and many other things.

For example, the daily number of deaths quoted is not the number of people who died on that day, it’s the number of deaths reported on that day. A lot of those people died several weeks ago. The number of daily deaths is much lower. That’s not to minimise it in any way, but to say that we are much further away from the peak of deaths, which occurred on 8th April, than we seem from the headline figures.

Another thing that should have been done was to look at the overall weekly mortality and compare it weekly mortality in previous years – the last few years and some notable peaks from the last few decades, and talk about the figures in the context of how many more people that usual are dying, because of this new virus. 2020 deaths up to 15th May are 270,000 this year as opposed to average over last 5 years of 225,000. A sharp jump, but perhaps bot the huge jump that some imagine.

The virus is certainly something to take seriously, as all new diseases are, but perspective surely helps to inform appropriate responses from all of us.

As for testing, I would think that knowing as much as possible about how the virus spreads, how many have been exposed and how many may have natural immunity, would be a good thing in order to inform the most appropriate response. But I think your testing program needs to be done intelligently and not just to satisfy a headline figure, as you need to test representative samples. I believe that’s what the government are attempting to do, and that is where the 8,000 comes from. I don’t know enough to say whether it is accurate or not, and to what extent they are taking into account people who have been exposed but have natural immunity, which seems to me the big unknown in all of this.

17160 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ karate56, replying to hotrod, 1, #255 of 413 🔗

It probably is. The more we test the more positives we find. Therefore, positive results are meaningless. We need to compare them to the negatives/total tested. Positive rate is surely the key parameter, not positive test results alone. We could have 1million positive people, which would alarm people. However, if there where 1000million corresponding negative people, the positive result is no longer alarming. The numbers we see everyday are just meaningless half the time, maybe that’s why Sweden and Norway gave up.

17154 ▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to hotrod, 9, #256 of 413 🔗

Their views may indeed be genuinely held, or they may be influenced by protecting their reputations – consciously or subconsciously. Do you think scientists unlike every other category of human are immune from such things?

“The science”. One of a number of government successes in this period has been their introduction into the language of phrases like “new normal”, “stay safe” and “the science”. As if “science” is always something fixed that everyone agrees on. It’s not, and any scientist worth their salt will tell you that. Nothing is ever proven forever in science – everything is always up for discussion when new evidence or theories come along. How could there possibly be “a science” for a virus that the world has never seen before? How could any of them be certain as to its effects on populations? How could they know how well the government will protect the vulnerable, or how well people stick to advice?

The “science” the government chooses to follow (sometimes) is just one set of views. There are many other eminent scientists who have different views, for example the group at Oxford. Surely a government before choosing such an extreme course of action ought to have investigated more widely among the scientific community? Surely the approach ought to be modified in light of information arriving from other countries and being gathered here?

To be fair to Chris Whitty and Patrick Vallance, if you watch their early public pronouncements they try to downplay the dangers. That was before the Imperial worst-case scenario model predicted all those deaths in the do-nothing scenario. Did the two of them change their minds because of that, or did they go along with the government’s decision, which was more based on politics than science? We don’t know, but we’re not seeing this properly debated. None of the debate about this virus in the mainstream public arena, from parliament and in the mainstream TV news media and press, has questioned “the science”. Do you think that is healthy, when the decisions that face us are so huge?

If the scientists are so confident, let’s see a public debate where informed journalists and scientists with differing views put their arguments to one another. Let’s see what their answer is when they are asked for example why countries that have had no lockdown like Japan seem to be doing so much better than we are. They may have some good answers – instead all we get in the daily press conference is “it’s difficult to compare countries”. That’s not really the answer of a scientist who is “certain” of what they are doing, is it?

17251 ▶▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to hotrod, 1, #257 of 413 🔗

We weren’t following the science previously There was not much science to follow back then except Ferguson’s wildly inaccuarate model

17132 ▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to hotrod, 4, #258 of 413 🔗

Whatever happens, this government will not fall. We know this because:

‘….covid-19 did not explain the high number of deaths taking place in the community.

At a briefing hosted by the Science Media Centre on 12 May he explained that, over the past five weeks, care homes and other community settings had had to deal with a “staggering burden” of 30 000 more deaths than would normally be expected, as patients were moved out of hospitals that were anticipating high demand for beds.

Of those 30 000, only 10 000 have had covid-19 specified on the death certificate. While Spiegelhalter acknowledged that some of these “excess deaths” might be the result of underdiagnosis, “the huge number of unexplained extra deaths in homes and care homes is extraordinary.’


But the government is still here. Lockdown was a one way bet: ‘We saved you!’

Releasing lockdown is a one way bet: ‘Look what would have happened if we hadn’t locked down!’ or ‘Its safe now, thanks to lockdown!’

Lockdowns? Is Sweden (no lockdown) moving towards its neighbours lockdown policies or vice versa?

‘Camille Stoltenberg, the (Norwegian Health) agency’s Director General told state broadcaster NRA that the agency’s analysis now suggested less restrictive measures would have been sufficient.

“Our assessment now….is that we could possibly have achieved the same effects and avoided some of the unfortunate impacts by not locking down, but by instead keeping open but with infection control measures,” she said.

The institute reported at the start of this month that the reproduction number had already fallen to as low as 1.1 even before the lockdown was announced on March 12.

This suggests that it would not have required heavy-handed measures such as school closures to bring it below 1 and so push the number of infected people in the country into a gradual decline.

“The scientific backing was not good enough,” Stoltenberg said of the decision to close down schools and kindergartens, a policy her agency had not recommend even at the time it was instituted in March.’


‘…. we could possibly have achieved the same effects and avoided some of the unfortunate impacts by not locking down.’

Britain has the government that it deserves.

17135 ▶▶▶ hotrod, replying to Tim Bidie, #259 of 413 🔗

Why does Sweden and in fact all Scandinavian countries have falling infection rates but our is apparently eight times what SAGE think is safe?

Regardless of lockdown approach we appear to be failing miserably in controlling.

Are Scandinavians generally more intelligent and able to exercise greater self discipline?

Until these figures come down the 2m rule won’t be dropped unless Boris just does that anyway to deflect from Cummings further.

17136 ▶▶▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to hotrod, 2, #260 of 413 🔗

Sweden doesn’t do much testing.

Norway is not doing much anymore either, leaving it to the individual to test themselves if they so wish:

Norway now has a timetable for lifting the various coronavirus restrictions but widespread testing has been ruled out.’


17243 ▶▶▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Tim Bidie, 3, #261 of 413 🔗

This would be a better route to follow. It stands to reason that the more testing you do, the more you find. Forget the lockdown and quarantine for airport arrivals, forget test and trace …. and watch the virus disappear rapidly. As Professor Sikora said, it will always be around but like every other virus it will just be absorbed into “influenza season” figures and forgotten about. Time to move on.

17140 ▶▶▶ daveyp, replying to Tim Bidie, 1, #262 of 413 🔗

Even if the government does fall, there will be an election, same two parties. Another metropolitan leader of Labour, who is uber pro-remain, the reason they lost big labour seats in the North was because of their stance on Brexit.

Do you really think an election now would see a different outcome?

17143 ▶▶▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to daveyp, 3, #263 of 413 🔗


17145 ▶▶▶▶ James007, replying to daveyp, #264 of 413 🔗

I like the suggestion of the government falling – but how would that happen? I dont think labour want an election just yet, and it seems most Conservative MPs are sheep.

17149 ▶▶▶▶ hotrod, replying to daveyp, -1, #265 of 413 🔗

Not today but in three months time, if this call is catastrophically wrong, then yes. However if that is the case I would expect 1922 to have had received some letters.

17146 ▶▶ Adele Bull, replying to hotrod, 2, #266 of 413 🔗

Worldometer say daily new cases in UK is under 2500, so no idea where that made up ONS figure came from! I think the Government are picking and choosing which figures to use to suit their remit!

17152 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to hotrod, 6, #267 of 413 🔗

Imagine if the UK was represented by a forest of trees and bushes. A fire comes along and burns through the forest. After assessing the damge you find that only the bushes got burned and most trees were intact. Local scientists calculate that 1% of the forest got burned and died and you can reasonably expect 1% of the forest to burn in future fires.

There are 2 crucial things to note here:

  1. Trees don’t get burned
  2. The number of bushes decreases with each fire

Now this is a pretty simplistic way to look at it but you should be able to see the problem with modelling when you look at it this way.

17167 ▶▶ StevieH, replying to hotrod, 5, #268 of 413 🔗

There is no “science” in this. It’s all guesswork, hunches and wishful thinking.

17130 ▶▶ Jonathan Smith, replying to GrantM, 5, #270 of 413 🔗

I’m commenting to save you the bother of clicking an anonymous contributor. Is it the video creator one wonders?

“A Different Bias”? What a weirdly named YouTube channel. Or maybe he’s limiting his sources.

I think pretty much every one of this fellas meanderings are addressed in the links at the bottom of this page. I can’t be bothered to reiterate them.

I’m dumber for listening to that.

17141 ▶▶ Hugh_Manity, replying to GrantM, 2, #271 of 413 🔗

What a wonderful video. Comedy Gold.

17134 Nobody2020, 2, #272 of 413 🔗


More complications associated with COVID-19 that have been argued make it worse than regular flu. However:

“Cytokine storms are a common complication not only of covid-19 and flu but of other respiratory diseases caused by coronaviruses such as SARS and MERS . They are also associated with non-infectious diseases such as multiple sclerosis and pancreatitis .”

17139 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 4, #273 of 413 🔗


Wow … it takes an epidemiologist to be a professor of tautological statements.

Professor Edmunds said many scientists” would prefer to see the incidence driven down to lower level, because that then means that we have fewer cases occurring before we relaxed measures”

17218 ▶▶ mark baker, replying to swedenborg, 1, #274 of 413 🔗

Yeah, but he’s a government scientist so everything he says is Holy Writ.

17235 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to mark baker, 4, #275 of 413 🔗

– Holy Writ.

+ wholly shit.

17257 ▶▶ annie, replying to swedenborg, 1, #276 of 413 🔗

Or, for the benefit of the hoi polloi, ‘if we could on,ply have fewer cases, then we would have fewer cases’.

17147 Cecil B, 10, #277 of 413 🔗

I was losing faith in the British public, but hey ho, they have come through again and stuck two fingers up to the camp guards

We are having a house party tonight

17155 Awkward Git, replying to Awkward Git, 4, #278 of 413 🔗

Just had my daily laughs over at the Daily mail comments section.

Lots of pro-narrative comments and votes so AI and trolls out in force.

Seconds apart a pro-narrative comment goes from -7 votes to +21, -5 which doesn’t make sense. I’ve tried to put on anti-narrative comments in the “unmoderated” comments without success.

77th earning lots of overtime today.

17165 ▶▶ guy153, replying to Awkward Git, 1, #279 of 413 🔗

I think the Mail needs to start using Captchas to defeat Cummings’s bot

17174 ▶▶▶ hotrod, replying to guy153, #280 of 413 🔗

Cummings bot??? What is that?

17211 ▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to hotrod, -1, #281 of 413 🔗

I think he has a script that posts generic “Dominic Cummings is great” on comments on the Daily Mail and similar publications under the guise of various randomly generated sock puppets.

17224 ▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to Awkward Git, 1, #282 of 413 🔗

The news is comedy – a sign that we have arrived in the great communist utopia!

17156 Truth, 7, #283 of 413 🔗

That FT chart is a disgrace to statistics. First they have cherry picked countries and second you can easily plot opposite regression lines e.g. straight line through Holland, Portugal and the US. Also they should publish the r-squared on the face of the chart.
Absolute garbage, they should be ashamed.

17158 Annabel Andrew, replying to Annabel Andrew, 7, #284 of 413 🔗

Fabulous piece above describing the journey yesterday- I too noted the same things- brilliant!!

Having listening to Dr Karol Sikora being interviewed by Freddie Sayers on Unherd Lockdown TV, I now think it is up to us- we need to lead the way by just going back to normal.

I listened on my way back home from work and on getting out of the car had a chat with a local teacher friend who was back from a walk with her children and her teacher husband- ‘ooh, we’re not going back until September- it’s got to be safe’; how lovely for them- they get 5 months to spend with their children and the most amazing Spring/early Summer on 100% pay, thank you UK taxpayers!

This attitude is shocking.

Also, please can someone help- I keep getting quoted ’60k excess deaths’- is this true? How can they know now anyway and how many of those are unexplained deaths due to lockdown? Is this made up of expected deaths in the 6 month period plus Covid deaths? Or…?

17168 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Annabel Andrew, 6, #286 of 413 🔗

There has been a lot of anecdotal evidence that many of the deaths are actually not from Covid 19 but from the usual suspects – old age, cancer, stroke, heart disease, etc but are being recorded as Covid 19.

Paulito a few days’ ago has mentioned that there is an investigation going on in Spain over the death count so it looks like the same thing is happening over there.

17233 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Bart Simpson, #287 of 413 🔗

Well excess deaths are certainly up on the average over last 5 years in the UK, and in other (but not all) European countries. My guess is that the new virus is probably more deadly for the vulnerable, and there’s no vaccine or immunity in that group so the variation in figures between countries is to do with how well they protected and continue to protect the vulnerable.

I think it was Ferguson himself who said it was likely that the overlap between his in famous 500,000 possible deaths in the UK in 2020 from covid-19 and those who would have died anyway in that year was around two thirds.

17172 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Annabel Andrew, 1, #288 of 413 🔗

You can see the excess deaths here:


But I prefer this one as it’s visually easier to read but probably not as up to date:


17184 ▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to Annabel Andrew, 3, #289 of 413 🔗

Its interesting to look here https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps and see that several countries have seen no visible excess deaths.

Considering the same virus must have swept through all countries it would seem plausible that the vast majority of excess deaths might be the result of the actions of governments, health services and care homes in some countries rather then the virus itself.

17193 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Annabel Andrew, 3, #290 of 413 🔗

One issue is that they’ve never tracked the flu in the way they’ve chosen to track COVID-19.

If they had made flu a notifiable disease then the historical figures for flu would have been a lot higher. The same people dying with COVID-19 now would in the past have been marked down as having died of flu.

17169 Fiat, replying to Fiat, 8, #291 of 413 🔗

I used to like to go to work but they shut it down
I’ve got a right to go to work but there’s no work to be found
Yes and they say we’re gonna have to pay what’s owed
We’re gonna have to reap from some seed that’s been sowed
“Telegraph Road” by Dire Straits

17254 ▶▶ annie, replying to Fiat, 2, #292 of 413 🔗

Dire Straits is the name all right.

17173 Bart Simpson, replying to Bart Simpson, 13, #294 of 413 🔗

My Facebook news feed is filled with annoucements from the likes of the National Trust, English Heritage, Blenheim, Chatsworth, etc about their grounds reopening but you have to pre-book. As I said a few days ago here, that has the potential to descend into farce given their core demographic and I’ve already seen members angry about the system as the slots have been booked up faster than you can say “we’re open”. Not surprising given that people have been cooped up in this mental hospital for 10 weeks now.

Some will reopen their cafes for takeaway food and drink but the toilets will be closed. WTF??

Have these people not thought about the fact that without toilets visitors won’t be able to wash their hands and they will just relieve themselves behind the trees and bushes? Plus don’t forget litter.

Then cue next week that management are whining that their grounds resemble a rubbish skip.

They only have themselves to blame.

17177 ▶▶ Suitejb, replying to Bart Simpson, 7, #295 of 413 🔗

I’m cancelling my NT membership. I’m not making an appointment to stroll around a local NT property I’ve been visiting and supporting for years. English Heritage however have given members an extra 3 months on their annual membership so I’ll stick with them.

17189 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Suitejb, 2, #296 of 413 🔗

I think that’s why you’ve not been hearing of EH members not renewing or cancelling en masse because of that extra 3 months which the National Trust have not done.

Also I won’t be surprised if there will be a lot of boycotting until this madness is consigned to the dustbin.

17253 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Suitejb, 2, #297 of 413 🔗

Cancelled mine too. In Wales they spend all their time licking Comrade Drakeford’s arse and don’t give a (appropriate word here) shit for their members.

17340 ▶▶▶ Gossamer, replying to Suitejb, 2, #298 of 413 🔗

I’ve cancelled my RSPB membership, on the grounds that opening up their reserves but not their toilets (at this stage) is both inhumane and insane. The totally unnecessary social distancing measures, in outdoor spaces, also played a part in my decision.

These large organisations potentially have a huge amount of clout, if only they would have the guts to use it. If they had defined the idiocy, it would have sent out a very powerful message.

On a related note, I wonder how many serious health issues may arise due to desperate people having to use parks and gardens as a public sewer?

17342 ▶▶▶▶ Gossamer, replying to Gossamer, 1, #299 of 413 🔗

*Defied, not defined. Apologies for the typo.

17385 ▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Gossamer, #300 of 413 🔗

Yet again that boggles me. As I’ve said in the past its odd that none of these organisations have spoken out considering that they keep on bleating how good being in the outdoors, going to a museum or live performance is good for your mental health. But come crunch time all you can hear from this lot is deafening silence.

That said my husband believes that the state must have some hold on them and they can’t deviate from the current orthodoxy.

17381 ▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Gossamer, #301 of 413 🔗

Part of my local park smells of piss during the weekend as people use it both as a drinking area and a sewer at the same time.

17186 ▶▶ coalencanth12, replying to Bart Simpson, 3, #302 of 413 🔗

I was pondering on here a few days ago, that, at first, there will be a big burst of economic activity as people move out of lockdown – which will then quickly dissipate as people get frustrated and bored with the ‘new normal’ lunacy. This sort of thing is a case in point ….

17200 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to coalencanth12, 5, #303 of 413 🔗

Agree. If anything this so-called “new normal” and social distancing will accelerate further falling business and visitor numbers. Who would want to stand in a queue just to buy something or eat in a restaurant or visit some NT grounds? Expect more shops, restaurants, cafes and pubs to close.

17297 ▶▶▶▶ ianric, replying to Bart Simpson, 1, #304 of 413 🔗

I wonder about the psychological impact of having to go for long periods without being to do what people did previously. For instance, someone enjoys going to the pub. I have heard pubs can’t open until July at the earliest. A regular pub goer has gone for over three months without being able to go to pubs. Would that person become so used to drinking at home instead of going to pubs, he may not want to go to pubs again. I wonder are businesses going to loose trade if people don’t go back to old habits.

17387 ▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to ianric, 1, #305 of 413 🔗

That’s a good point and of course with the proposed social distancing who would want to queue to get to a pub? Many people just won’t bother.

17294 ▶▶ Poppy, replying to Bart Simpson, 3, #306 of 413 🔗

Closing public toilets is total lunacy, whether in general or at these heritage properties – in any other ‘normal’ time it would be a discrimination issue because some disabled people need to use the toilet more. And public toilets have never been bastions of hygiene anyway – just wash your hands or bring sanitising gel in case there’s no soap! Enough of these sledgehammer-to-crack-a-nut measures of closing everything down with no nuanced targeting.

17388 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Poppy, #307 of 413 🔗

It is bonkers and I’m amazed that the management of these heritage sites have not thought of that – there’s going to be a knock on effect be it visitors just relieving themselves wherever which would lead to litter everywhere and waste affecting the biodiversity of their estates or not bother coming which would mean less revenue for this lot.

The funny thing is that my local Morrison’s has kept their toilets open throughout this madness and have carried on cleaning it and trying to maintain it at an acceptable standard.

17176 hotrod, replying to hotrod, -1, #308 of 413 🔗

So at this key pivot moment:

– Stop following the science
– Protect Cummings
– Save Brexit

I do wonder what the ‘narrative’ has become.

17178 ▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to hotrod, 5, #309 of 413 🔗

Science was never followed. 🙄

17183 ▶▶▶ hotrod, replying to Winston Smith, -2, #310 of 413 🔗

So effectively are you suggesting that lockdown was done just to protect the government and deflect criticism for reacting too late?

And keeping it in place keeps ‘fooling’ the sheep?

17188 ▶▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to hotrod, 5, #311 of 413 🔗

Love, there is no evidence than any scientific evidence was followed to put any measures in place.

The reasons are baffling, so I can’t help you there….. sorry.

17187 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to hotrod, #312 of 413 🔗

The UK is in a terrible situation. We will always be judged based on what other countries have achieved. Since NZ managed to keep their death toll to double figures everyone expects the same. What started as flattening the curve has turned into nobody needs to die, look what NZ managed to do.

So as we ease lockdown there will probably be more deaths. Then people will say haven’t we had enough deaths and now you’re risking more.

If our death rate was lower then as harsh as it sounds we would have had wiggle room to take on more deaths. Opening up wouldn’t be such an issue.

So we have to make a decision. Stay locked down and take the damage that comes with it until the infection rates drop or we open up and accept at least a few more deaths (it could turn out to be a lot more but nobody can say for sure).

This is what happens when you manage a crisis with seemingly no clear plan.

17206 ▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to Nobody2020, 2, #313 of 413 🔗

The ‘death with covid’ count is an essentially a meaningless number and should be ignored, there is not really any science behind it.

We have never attempted to track deaths with other coronaviruses, rhinoviruses, influenza viruses in the same way before so there is nothing to compare with.

Excess mortality is a better figure to look at because simply counting dead bodies is less open to interpretation. Of course we do not know how many are dying from covid but the deaths with covid figure does not actually tell us that either.

There are countries much closer to home which have set good examples in that sense such as Germany. Excess mortality across Europe can be seen here: https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps/

17209 ▶▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Saved To Death, #314 of 413 🔗

I’ve always looked at excess deaths as the key metric. However most people think it’s about the absolute number of deaths.

They seem to think that nobody should ever die from this virus simply because other countries managed to keep their death count low.

17219 ▶▶▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to Nobody2020, #315 of 413 🔗

Yes I agree and it is depressing. I think its important to try and explain to people that the death with covid number does not actually tell us how many people are dying from it and that the number is meaningless and not comparable from country to country. I think it might be a better measure of the level of corruption within each countries health care system then anything else and I am not saying it is even a good measure of that.

17285 ▶▶▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Nobody2020, #316 of 413 🔗

Brainwashed and stupid basically. It’s always about absolute numbers to them because they have been conditioned to FEAR the virus.

The game’s just about up though, because apart from the masked loons that reside on Facebook etc, and us opposite (angry) normals here I actually reckon most people are just simply apathetic… That means they will sway with the wind. And thats clearly only going one way

17250 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Nobody2020, 1, #317 of 413 🔗

NZ has a population of about five million.

Ours is 67 million.

Do the math.

17278 ▶▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to annie, 1, #318 of 413 🔗

It’s nothing to do with maths. People just see a low number of deaths and think that’s what everyone should be able to do.

So it reinforces the idea that every death is unnecessary.

17274 ▶▶▶ Sally, replying to Nobody2020, 2, #319 of 413 🔗

NZ didn’t “manage” to do anything. NZ, like Australia, had the benefit of summer weather and geographic isolation. Both countries imposed travel restrictions, which would have helped to keep cases out. Other than that, it was just the luck of where they are. Both countries now have the tricky task of opening up their borders at some time and hoping that the virus doesn’t get out of hand.

17295 ▶▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Sally, 2, #320 of 413 🔗

I think you’re missing my point. A lot of people only look at the absolute number of deaths because they are the “one death is one too many” type. So nomatter what is done they will say things like yeah but we could have had zero deaths look at NZ.

As we ease lockdown it is likely that there will be more deaths. These people will demand lockdown lasts forever because they think zero deaths is possible.

17288 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Nobody2020, 4, #321 of 413 🔗

Oh sure… This was the new Zealand that was STILL in lockdown about 2 weeks after their last death from the virus. Hilarious. 15 bloody deaths was it…? All pre-existing conditions? And they fucked their economy for that??? I think they have almost been the stupidest of the lot

17180 Awkward Git, replying to Awkward Git, 5, #322 of 413 🔗

I have a few comments on the SAGE minutes from 07th May 2020:

point 6 shows they do not have a clue still on how bad his programme was

point 6 shows they still only want “science” from the agenda following adherents

50 is way too many for anything meaningful to happen in a committee

To me those 3 points are enough to ignore them.

17185 ▶▶ James007, replying to Awkward Git, 4, #323 of 413 🔗

Yes indeed. Point 6 expreses thanks for Ferguson’s valuable work and says that they ought to continue to use the work of Imperial College.
I dont know how you can have 50 people on a committee. I wonder who the redacted names are.

17282 ▶▶▶ anon, replying to James007, #324 of 413 🔗

bill gates? Beelzebub? Maybe a rothschild?

17293 ▶▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to anon, #325 of 413 🔗

What’s your fucking point?

17314 ▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to James007, 1, #326 of 413 🔗

I wondered that as well.

17192 AidanR, #327 of 413 🔗

Michael Hurley is absolutely spot on in his analysis.

17195 StevieH, #328 of 413 🔗

From “The American Spectator”.

Coronavirus teaches a recalcitrant humanity an important lesson: seers still cannot, in 2020, see the future.

Science tells us as much. Scientists disagree with the science on prophecy. They continue to play Nostradamus. When one’s profession morphs into a religion, occurrences as unpredictable as science usurping the supernatural come to pass.

But the data is in. Scientists make for poor psychics.

“Here we present the results of epidemiological modelling which has informed policymaking in the UK and other countries in recent weeks,” explained epidemiologist Neil M. Ferguson and 30 other members of the Imperial College COVID-19 Response Team. Their study outlined a worst-case scenario of “approximately 510,000 deaths in [Great Britain] and 2.2 million in the US.” Though they conceded this “unlikely” given that the model relied on a presumption of no government “control measures” or behavioral changes among individuals, they also hedged their bets on the upper edge of the estimate by “not accounting for the potential negative effects of health systems being overwhelmed on mortality.” Under “the most effective mitigation strategy examined … we predict there would still be in the order of 250,000 deaths in [Great Britain], and 1.1-1.2 million in the US.”

Coronavirus deaths in the United States this week surpassed 100,000, a figure that struck many Americans as enormous just as it hit the Debbie Downers at Imperial College as paltry. Clearly, deaths trend downward, dramatically so from several weeks ago, and do not peak near the start of summer as the Imperial College models maintained. The chances appear nonexistent that U.S. deaths approach 10 percent of the bleak estimate and unlikely that they reach a quarter of the sunnier, relatively speaking, estimate, which, in kindness to the scientists, really serves as a euphemism for “guess.” Maybe if scientists used the term “reckon,” e.g., I reckon this Wuhan afflictation kills more folks than the grippe , instead of “project,” “model,” “conclude,” then nonscientists normally cowed by their degrees and indecipherable jargon might regard the guesses as something deserving of more credence than Madame Cleo but less than Jimmy the Greek.

National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases Director Anthony Fauci estimated the mortality rate of coronavirus as 10 times that of influenza. World Health Organization Director-General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus offered a figure of about 35 times the rate of the flu.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) now advances a “best estimate” of a fatality rate not much greater than the flu’s. Several other studies that actually tested random individuals rather than rely on the cases gleaned from people who sought out a test indicate a mortality rate closer to the CDC’s more-educated guess. The main problem with the earlier proclamations stemmed from the fact that although Fauci and Ghebreyesus knew the numerator (deaths), neither knew, or could know, the denominator (cases). They knew that they could not know the denominator, yet made estimates as though they did. They reckoned. They did not know.

“I hope NY doesn’t ultimately need 30,000 ventilators,” New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo tweeted on March 27 in response to the president questioning his demands. “But I don’t operate on opinion and hope. I operate on facts and data and science. All the projections say we will need 30,000-40,000 ventilators.”

New York used , at the peak of the crisis, about one-sixth the ventilators of the low-end guesstimation that operated on facts and data and science. Now those seeking to Saran Wrap the world point to a rising number of “cases,” ignoring, deliberately one imagines, the meaningless of that in relation to public-health dangers given the growth in the availability of tests. More cases mean more testing. That is a good thing.

Are we really more advanced in consulting charts and graphs rather than entrails and cloud formations to divine the auguries? Sure, we can reasonably predict phenomena such as the weather with enough observation of patterns. But when we know little about something we cannot forecast accurately. Yet, demand for prognostication is strong when the supply is weak.

People want certainty more than science. This is especially true when confronted with something as uncertain as a new disease. Scientists give people the illusion of certainty by speaking with authority but not knowledge. This comforts, temporarily at least. In the long run, it misleads. Policymakers craft rules base on false assumptions. That happened here.

A curiosity for discovering the truth propels real scientists. An impulse to nudge others to receive one’s proclamations as truth propels pseudoscientists. The former constantly questions. The latter constantly admonishes not to question. Science remains fallible for as long as scientists do. In other words, science fails because scientists have intellectual failings, political biases, bureaucratic tics to cover their behinds, egos that marry them to their ideas rather than true ideas, and so on.

Science did not merely dethrone the supernatural. It became it. It did so by speaking with authority but without knowledge. Naked-faced people walk confidently after science gives its imprimatur; then science commands, Thou shalt not go out in public without a mask , and the faithful comply. Just as the mystical nature of religions confuse the rabble looking at the animal sacrifice taking place during the eclipse, the impenetrable nature of modern science compels an acceptance without an understanding. Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.

A necessarily authoritarian vibe reveals itself from questioning God, Science, Karl Marx, or some other authority, an act of insolence that makes one an outcast at best and a blasphemer at worst. Science, the god for people who do not believe in God, becomes merely the latest, but not the last, god that failed. Power-hungry humans exploit God, science, and other good things in which people believe for bad ends.

Americans continue to exude faith in scientists. But for how long after the coronavirus debacle?

People in lab coats should not dare foretell tomorrow. Leave that to the professionals in Merlin hats and ZZ Top beards.

17196 Gillian, replying to Gillian, 5, #329 of 413 🔗

Really depressed today. I know I shouldn’t be watching it but some bloke who is on Sage (I think) has just been on Sky News giving a really, really, really bleak prognosis about the virus and the effect of loosening the lockdown. Seems he is supported by two others, one being some bigwig in the Wellcome Trust. Can anyone cheer me up? Sorry to be downbeat.

17197 ▶▶ Liam, replying to Gillian, #330 of 413 🔗

Stop watching the news.

17201 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Gillian, 3, #331 of 413 🔗

Sky is very biased. They’re generally dismissive of anybody they interview who has a contrarian view to the mainstream narrative. Except for Sophy Ridge who seems to be slightly more neutral and sympathetic to other viewpoints.

17208 ▶▶▶ Gillian, replying to Nobody2020, #332 of 413 🔗

I sometimes think that Adam Bolton is sceptical of the mainstream narrative but is very careful to hide it. Maybe I am wrong.

17214 ▶▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Gillian, 2, #333 of 413 🔗

Definitely not yesterday morning. He was interviewing Susie Boniface and another lady who was against lockdowns. He was totally dismissive of the second lady and seemed irritated by her even daring to try and put her point across.

17286 ▶▶▶▶▶ anon, replying to Nobody2020, 1, #334 of 413 🔗

They’re not real journalists

Give up the tv you will feel much better!

17222 ▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Gillian, #336 of 413 🔗

They all have no upside to saying let’s unlock but much downside. Some might be seeking to rewrite their own history. Let’s have all the prior advice out in the open.

17229 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Gillian, 3, #337 of 413 🔗

Sorry to hear you are depressed. Maybe take a break from reading about this stuff and do something enjoyable instead.

I think it’s fine for scientists to differ in their views – that’s what science is. As long as they are being honest. They are not perfect, and I am sure that applies to pro and anti lockdown scientists.

What I think most experts agree on, with backing from the statistics, is that the virus mainly affects people with pre-existing health conditions of certain types, and older, more frail people. That’s probably not much comfort if you fall into one of those categories, or have loved ones that do. But influenza also affects those groups, though there is evidence that the new virus is more deadly than influenza. Many of us, me more than most, worry about death, but it doesn’t seem to me like this virus is a game-changer, it’s just one more nasty thing we have to learn to live with as best we can.

In my town this morning, there were lots of people out and about, young and old alike, almost none with masks and while trying to give eachother space certainly not sticking to 2metres – because in a compact town centre with an outdoor market, its simply impossible. The human instinct to get things done and carry on is strong.

17239 ▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Gillian, 5, #338 of 413 🔗

Yeah, I can cheer you up. The principal reason for MSM to exist is to instill fear in people. Fear keeps people watching/reading which in turn makes them buy things they don’t want. I trained as a journalist back in 1970 (lasted six months) and even back then truth was not high on the agenda.You’re never going to see the likes of Michael Levitt, Knut Wittkowski or John Ionaddis on Sky TV. Watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgP_Au5RZVw&list=WL&index=308&t=0s You’d do well to assume that MSM are going to lie to you

17256 ▶▶▶ Bill h, replying to Nigel Baldwin, #339 of 413 🔗

The only two behavioural drivers

Fear and Greed.

17246 ▶▶ Anthony, replying to Gillian, -2, #340 of 413 🔗

I can imagine there will be more Covid deaths if we ease lockdown rather than maintain it. The important issue will be how many more and, on balance, will the benefits of easing lockdown outweigh the extra deaths that this might cause.

The scientists may simply be giving their judgement on how the reduction of lockdown will affect Covid deaths, it’s up to the politicians to strike the right balance based on this information and that’s why they’re easing the lockdown despite these predictions

I’d imagine they’re banking on minimising extra deaths by (hopefully) adequately protecting hospitals and care homes whilst allowing everyone else to eventually go about as normal. They’re possibly realising that a vaccination is a pipe dream and are therefore going for herd immunity without actually admitting it.

17248 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Anthony, #341 of 413 🔗

You may be right, and that would be a more sensible approach than the one adopted so far, though far from ideal.

Had they been more rational and shown leadership in the first place, we wouldn’t be in this mess.

17259 ▶▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to Anthony, 3, #342 of 413 🔗

The registration of covid 19 deaths in this country is all over the place, like so much covid 19 ‘data’ hopelessly unreliable, fudged by bureaucrats to please their politicised and political masters.


When Italy looked at their own recorded covid 19 deaths, they revised the figure down to 12% of its original size:

‘Prof. Walter Ricciardi, scientific advisor to Italy’s minister of health said, and I quote, “The way in which we code deaths in our country is very generous in the sense that all the people who die in hospitals with the coronavirus are deemed to be dying of the coronavirus. … On re-evaluation by the NIH,” he says, “only 12% of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88% of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity – many two or three.”


Lockdown scepticism cannot win on official data because the data is/are corrupted. There is no internationally recognised standard for death registration procedure.

The reckoning will probably only come (if then) via a public inquiry where deaths caused by unhelpful interventions may very well be shown to be a great deal more significant than those caused by a minor coronavirus common cold epidemic, lethal as all common cold viruses are to the elderly and infirm (known for years!).

No question, large numbers of people are still very frightened but, that notwithstanding, part of the dragging out of the lockdown may be to put off the day of reckoning via public inquiry.

Over 10,000 people have died before their time as a direct consequence of unhelpful interventions.


17266 ▶▶▶▶ Anthony, replying to Tim Bidie, #343 of 413 🔗

Don’t disagree at all.

17264 ▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Anthony, 1, #344 of 413 🔗

‘Covid deaths’? I’m not sure there are a thing now. Deaths that erroneously recorded as ‘linked to Covid’ are what you are referring to.

17272 ▶▶▶▶ Anthony, replying to Winston Smith, #345 of 413 🔗

To be honest I’m not really refering to the official data because, as Tim has pointed out, it’s totally unreliable. There are obviously a lot of deaths that are caused by Covid, how many is impossible to say (although I’m guessing a lot less than were being told). I’m simply saying that some scientists think this number will increase if the lockdown is eased, which may well be the case, but it looks like the politicians are now thinking that this sacrifice is now worth it for the benefits of easing lockdown.

17289 ▶▶▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Anthony, #346 of 413 🔗

Why obviously?

17276 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Anthony, 5, #347 of 413 🔗

No. You have to get past this mental block. God knows how many deaths are being attributed to covid when quite honestly it was not the cause. My own Gp told me that a 94 year old terminal cancer granny in a care home was marked as a covid statistic. It’s a disgrace and it’s widespread practice everywhere

Deaths at home… What’s the betting that they were too scared to go to hospital? Eh stroke… ?And don’t be surprised if, as if by magic, they have covid on the death certificate too.

You are being played

17339 ▶▶ paulito, replying to Gillian, 1, #348 of 413 🔗

These 3 specimens who have taken to the media to fearmonger are the 3 most desperate to avoid the truth coming out. Remember their names when the enquiry uncovers who they’re really working for.

17198 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 25, #349 of 413 🔗

The discussing of the second wave is strange. Everybody talks about the second wave in the Spanish flu without any real knowledge what they are talking about. We had no virus confirmation of the Spanish flu for the simple reason that the influenza virus was not even discovered at that time. About 80 year’s later two frozen bodies of Spanish flu victims were dug up in Alaska and Svalbard, bodies well preserved after being frozen. In those bodies H1N1 of the influenza virus could be found and “reconstructed” from the body tissue (in fact there was concern at the time that a dangerous unknown virus could be found which could leak out). Everybody was afraid that the reconstructed H1N1 virus could have features showing a great propensity for severe attachment to human cells like avian flu but, if I remember correctly, that was not the case. It seemed to be an ordinary H1N1 influenza virus. By testing sera from persons alive during the first world war, antibodies to H1N1 was found, hence this is the only indirect evidence that H1N1 was the cause of Spanish flu.

A new pandemic shift influenza virus H1N1 would then circulate yearly during winter periods until the next pandemic shift in 1957-58 when the Asiatic flu H2N2 completely replaced H1N1.This circulated until 1968/69 when H2N2 completely disappeared and Hongkong flu H3N2 appeared and this has been circulating every winter since then. Then in 2009 Swine flu H1N1 appeared but this time did not replace H3N2 and both have been co circulating since. Swine flu only affected younger persons since older people had immunity from the 1918-1957 influenza epidemics.

The speculation is if the famous wave of Spanish flu starting autumn 1918 really was the second wave after a the so called first wave earlier in the spring supposedly milder. There is no way to prove now that the first wave of Spanish flu was really influenza H1N1. https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-19-epidemic-waves/

The famous Russian cold/flu 1889-1892 was retrospectively suspected being caused by H2N2 influenza virus by indirect methods of identifying H2N2 antibodies in that generation. But there has already now been speculation instead that this supposedly Russian flu was in fact a corona virus pandemic instead (some Belgian scientists)

By definition the first wave needs to peter out because of herd immunity being reached before a second wave is possible. No respiratory epidemic or flu epidemic has a pattern of two immediate spikes as far as I am aware of. According to the Bell curve half of the cases would still occur after the peak but it would inevitably slow down. The corona virus might have a Gompetz curve and then have approximately 2/3 of cases occurring after peak but it would still peter out as all epidemics due to the herd immunity building up. Everything else shows that Covid-19 deaths, hospitalizations are going down and also the crude general death rate in the population. Why should not coronavirus follow the usual respiratory virus/flu virus pattern?

There was never any need in earlier flu epidemics to have schools etc closed when the epidemic was already slowing down. In normal flu times we should have opened up the country completely now and stop all social distancing, stop any mass testing and save our ammunition for the future. To prepare to build up a surveillance system to see if we will have the famous second wave coming in the autumn and winter.

This idea of gradual opening is just a theatrical farce just to cover up the incompetence of our politicians having made the worst mistake ever, instituting the lockdown. I suspect that they know this bitter truth but the Mark Twain quotation

It is easier to fool people than convince them that they have been fooled.

17223 ▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to swedenborg, 2, #350 of 413 🔗

Excellent and informative summary. Thank you.

17273 ▶▶ ianp, replying to swedenborg, 1, #351 of 413 🔗

Oh yeah, this soap opera is now going to be played out for all it’s worth. There have been several hints along the way. There’s loads in the mix here, and you have to keep an eye on the money AND all this new tech (robot dogs ffs?!) Suddenly coming out to play. Here are what I think are the factors : china economic dominance being checked – good thing for sure given the CCP, technology – 5g – Boris is going to renege on Huawei pretty sure, green tech & net carbon zero, financial restructuring, overpopulation, state coercive control or a voluntary change in population mindset… ? Lots lots more that’s not easy to piece together but it’s big.

17302 ▶▶ Edna, replying to swedenborg, #352 of 413 🔗

Thank you so much for this!

17303 ▶▶ daveyp, replying to swedenborg, 1, #353 of 413 🔗

I did a post on this the other day but it’s hard to keep track with a new blog comments page every day!

It’s believed that during the second wave a significant proportion of the deaths was caused by Aspirin overdoses.

17205 ▶▶ StevieH, replying to StevieH, 2, #355 of 413 🔗

If any of you still have faith in “The Science” and “Scientists”. this will put you right.

17213 ▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to StevieH, 2, #356 of 413 🔗

I have faith in science – not our criminal government and advisers. Anyone can use the word science or call themselves a scientist – it does not mean that is what they practice.

17210 ▶▶ mark baker, replying to StevieH, 5, #357 of 413 🔗

Spot on. This whole debacle has been marked by either the Government telling us they’re following the science without giving any details of what that science is, or by scientists themselves popping up and making predictions about the future that the only reason we listen to is because they’re a ‘scientist’. You can bet what motivates loads of these ‘scientists’ is not a dispassionate quest for the truth but rather naked ambition.

17226 ▶▶▶ Nic, replying to mark baker, 5, #358 of 413 🔗

Surely if we had from the start protected the elderly care homes etc and the vulnerable with health conditions the test of us could have cracked on and built up herd immunity with minimum fatalities ,why does no one ask SAGE boris etc why this wasnt done it’s so obvious and the economy would not have been trashed@

17212 ▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to StevieH, 4, #359 of 413 🔗

Very insightful – it is what some have been saying for many years about the ‘science is settled’ mantra of the Climate Change bandwagon, until they were silenced by having their funding cut. One need look no further than the modus operandi of the prophets of doom. For Climate Change it is St Greta, and for this ‘pandemic’, the rantings of the likes of Professor John Ashton encapsulate ‘the science’. My contempt, however, is reserved for those charged with the task of managing ‘in the public interest’. Their defence cannot be, ‘we were following the science’ when, as Boris admitted, he only looks at the summary of the SAGE committee findings. There is even less scientific rationale for adapting policy to the rantings of a 17 year-old with no formal and relevant educational attainment.

17203 Mark H, replying to Mark H, 9, #360 of 413 🔗

Helpfully in Scotland, our Dear Leader has tweeted a handy list of rules for us to stay safe. I’ve printed the list out, laminated it and it’s being held in place on my fridge by a Saltire magnet.

➡️ 1 other household/ 8 people max

➡️ Stay 2m apart

➡️ Don’t go indoors

➡️ Wash your hands often

➡️ Avoid hard surfaces & clean any you do touch

➡️ Take care in the 🌞

For my BBQ this evening, in order to keep my 6 guests safe, I’ve purchased 6 plastic buckets, 6 bottles of antibacterial soap and 6 fresh towels in order for my guests to frequently wash their hands in the garden. This means they can safely do so without unsafely entering the house.

I’ve also purchased 6 shovels so that each guest can dig their own latrine and I’m providing each guest with a packet of antibacterial bottom wipes, should they need to relieve themselves from their bottoms.

As I’d expect, the replies to Dear Leader’s tweet are overwhelmingly positive, praising her for her clear and concise advice.

I do take exception to the use of the word “advice”. This isn’t advice, it’s rules. I’ll be making a cursory call to my local police station later to determine whether the rules are also laws. But either, way I’m making sure myself and my guest stay safe.

17225 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Mark H, 3, #361 of 413 🔗

Great idea about the outdoor latrines – maybe you should send that to the management of the National Trust, English Heritage and all the other stately homes.

17232 ▶▶ Anthony, replying to Mark H, 4, #362 of 413 🔗

It’s funny that ‘taking care in the sun’ is now a rule too.

17249 ▶▶ annie, replying to Mark H, #363 of 413 🔗

Have fun!

17216 BTLnewbie, replying to BTLnewbie, 2, #364 of 413 🔗


I have been looking at the ONS data for 2020 deaths in England & Wales, compared to the 5-year average.

If the Covid deaths (“deaths where Covid-19 was registered on the death certificate”) are removed, this should give me the difference between 2020 and an average year.

(I leave it open as to whether these were all deaths due to Covid – anecdotally there seems to have over-recording of Covid deaths, and hence under-recording of excess deaths).

In the 8 weeks since lockdown (ONS data is to 15 May) there were 12,852 excess deaths. All of these were in the first 6 weeks – the last 2 weeks are back to normal.

So in the first 6 weeks of lockdown, excess deaths were running at over 2,000 per week, compared to an average weekly death rate of about 10,500.

Better brains than mine can tell me:

1. whether this is statistically significant

2. whether it reflects an under-recording of Covid deaths at the peak

3. whether it reflects lives lost as a result of lockdown

17237 ▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to BTLnewbie, 5, #365 of 413 🔗

This article may give you an answer:

‘David Spiegelhalter, chair of the Winton Centre for Risk and Evidence Communication at the University of Cambridge, said that covid-19 did not explain the high number of deaths taking place in the community.

At a briefing hosted by the Science Media Centre on 12 May he explained that, over the past five weeks, care homes and other community settings had had to deal with a “staggering burden” of 30 000 more deaths than would normally be expected, as patients were moved out of hospitals that were anticipating high demand for beds.

Of those 30 000, only 10 000 have had covid-19 specified on the death certificate. While Spiegelhalter acknowledged that some of these “excess deaths” might be the result of underdiagnosis, “the huge number of unexplained extra deaths in homes and care homes is extraordinary. When we look back . . . this rise in non-covid extra deaths outside the hospital is something I hope will be given really severe attention.”

He added that many of these deaths would be among people “who may well have lived longer if they had managed to get to hospital.”


17221 Barney McGrew, 13, #366 of 413 🔗

Yesterday was an ‘up’ day, when you thought that sense might possibly be showing through, the papers hinting at some sort of a return to normality. Today is a ‘down’ day, with the papers falling over themselves to stress that if you jump the gun on lockdown ‘easing’ you will be fined, and that SAGE scientists are saying that it’s all to early and there’ll be a second wave.

We are left to imagine that the PM is listening to this garbage because that’s what he does, and so when the time comes he will renege on previous promises as he has done before:

“Now is the most critical time ladies and gentlemen. Let us not undo all the good work, the sacrifices we have all made. I don’t have a clue what ‘R’ actually means, but my good friends the media… er, the scientists – some of the finest scientists in the world, ladies and gentlemen – tell me that we must maintain our vigilance – vigilantia retineamus , as it were – for a little while longer. So, my friends, from Monday the police have been instructed to taser on sight that inconsiderate minority that leave their homes without a rationabile inexcusabiles…”

17227 Nigel Baldwin, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 13, #367 of 413 🔗

Watched The Big Short (Netflix) again last night. With extraordinary clarity it parallels today’s events, although back then it was a financial panic that brought the world to its knees. It also highlights the fact that we’re actually governed and controlled (indirectly) by fraudsters and cheats and when the crunch came we bailed them out. WE paid THEM back for robbing us. There was an opportunity then to change the way we did things, to shift paradigms, but it never happened. Maybe this time, but I’m not holding my breath as I watch ministers and ‘scientists’ try and wriggle off the hook by delaying lifting LD, massaging figures and exaggerating risks. A new paradigm would need so-called leaders to hold up their hands and say we screwed up. But what I see is a compliant population willing to ‘bail’ them out again. And so we continue to live in this charade. In the film the Brad Pitt character says to two traders too obviously celebrating imminent financial collapse: ‘For every 1% increase in employment, 40,000 people die. ‘ And this is what Michael Lewis says at the end of his book which inspired the film: ‘That was the problem with money. What people did with it had consequences but they were so remote from the original action that the mind never connected the one with the other.’ In other words things don’t go bad immediately, they go bad way down the line. What percentage of unemployment do we see contribute to deaths that will dwarf Covid19 figures?

17228 ▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 1, #368 of 413 🔗

‘unemployment’ not ’employment’

17230 ▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 4, #369 of 413 🔗

Increasingly its looking like we have a new paradigm just not one that will good for the vast majority of us or one that we have any input in. We are now ruled over by a ‘politburo’ referred to as sage.

Those are interesting analogies you have spotted all the same.

17234 ▶▶▶ StevieH, replying to Saved To Death, 4, #370 of 413 🔗

Yes. We are being “ruled” rather than governed, with Boris issuing what are tantamount to “Royal Decrees”, whatever their basis in reality.

17291 ▶▶▶▶ anon, replying to StevieH, #371 of 413 🔗

Has the queen said anything during this fiasco?

17242 ▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Saved To Death, 1, #372 of 413 🔗

Possible, I agree. I’m going to wait until we’re out of the woods. It could all come tumbling down. An interesting trivial observation from that film: In 2006 a (very) few people are still wearing face masks in New York. I assumed from the fall out of 9/11 five years before. There’s been speculation that the high rate of Covid fatalities in New York has a direct correlation to the quality of air as a result of that calamity.

17258 ▶▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 2, #373 of 413 🔗

If I recall, the stats on deaths were analysed by the team at the Langone hospital in New York, and the most statistically significant factor after age 80 plus (I think that was the age cut off, but it might be 70) was obesity. That, of course, links to the other comorbidities of diabetes and various heart diseases. However, your post reminds me of one of the other key factors in 9/11 – I watched it unfold live while sat at home heavily pregnant! The advice to those in the second tower was to stay put – in effect to lockdown. Interestingly, several Brits were interviewed at the time, who said they ignored that advice and got out. Sadly, many of their American colleagues followed the advice and perished. The Big Short is a great film, by the way, and again of note is that Dr Michael Burry (Christian Bale) has come out very vocally against lockdown some weeks ago (covered by ZeroHedge).

17231 Nobody2020, 1, #374 of 413 🔗

Very interesting interview with John Edmunds of Sage on Sky News. While talking about opening up, if you watch it carefully he’s about to say there will be a large number of deaths but stops himself and changes it to people will die.

17252 Julian, replying to Julian, 17, #375 of 413 🔗

Resisting the “new normal”.

I am very disturbed at the extent to which this phrase, and the seemingly insane regulations that it is brining, are spoken of as settled fact, about which we do not have a choice.

It needs to be stopped, in my view.

I think it would help if there were some national figures who are big enough to get themselves heard on national TV and newspaper front pages, who supported this cause and spoke strongly for it. We need to start getting the right questions asked, and sowing seeds of doubt.

I wonder how this could be brought about. Perhaps Mr Young knows one or two of sufficient gravitas? Perhaps someone who has a way with words could pen a few paragraphs, enough to fill a full page in a newspaper, and set up a crowdfunding site to get funds sufficient to take out an ad, to draw attention to this. Or a truck driving round the country with some billboards? Perhaps a businessman, or group of them?

I think we need to move the narrative on from stuff about which little bits of lockdown are being eased or not to talking frankly about how we get out of this as a normal country, not some mad scifi novel.

17261 ▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Julian, 3, #376 of 413 🔗

If it was up to me, I would end lockdown right now!

17267 ▶▶ FiFiTrixabelle, replying to Julian, 7, #377 of 413 🔗

Julian – completely agree with you. The lockdown will (at some point) fully ease, but the narrative around the ‘new normal’ is terrifying. While I am supportive of the view that many of us will not accept the ‘new normal’, when institutions and employers all over the country put measures in place to keep us 2m apart etc., there will be little choice.
I would be fully supportive of crowd funding to get a different narrative out. Today, with the current media coverage, this feels like an uphill battle.

17277 ▶▶ Tenchy, replying to Julian, 2, #378 of 413 🔗

Peter Hitchens immediately springs to mind. However, I guess the MSM are boycotting him. I’m surprised he hasn’t been banned off Twitter before now.

17284 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Tenchy, #379 of 413 🔗

I think Hitchens has clear thinking and sound ideas on this, but he’s not a big enough name sadly. He’s seen as a fringe, polarising figure, seen by many as an extremist (which is odd seeing as I think his views on most subjects seem sensible and moderate).

I think a minimum would be a senior serving backbench MP, or a former cabinet minister, or a major business figure with public name recognition. Or a trusted celebrity.

17299 ▶▶▶▶ Tenchy, replying to Julian, #380 of 413 🔗

Lord Sumption?

17300 ▶▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Tenchy, 3, #381 of 413 🔗

Well, he has already spoken out, and I am sure it has done some good, but not enough to nudge the debate into the mainstream.

He’s a brilliant speaker and clear thinker.

17279 ▶▶ Old Bill, replying to Julian, 7, #382 of 413 🔗

I agree that if social distancing were the new normal then it would be catastrophic, but it is only the ‘new normal’ in the Fascist BBC Wokeworld (I use the BBC as an example of the gutter press as a whole – other similarly biased media outlets are available). Around my way the first supermarket to introduce ‘social distance’ queuing was Sainsbury’s – they introduced it even before it was compulsory I believe. My reaction to that is that I have never used Sainsburys since, even though they are now no different to the rest, and I will continue to boycott them afterwards too.

So that is the answer, vote with your wallet as much as possible, sooner or later someone will break ranks and the system will fall.

If society has become so completely polarised that there are people out there that want to queue outside shops indefinitely, then maybe we should have introduce ‘social distancing’ and ‘non social distancing’ shops and see which ones get on the best. They could even arrange to swap staff, so the covid cockroaches that want indefinite lockdown could work in the ‘SD’ shop while the human beings could work in the ‘non-SD’ shop.

17287 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Old Bill, 3, #383 of 413 🔗

Yes, certainly will vote with the wallet as far as possible, and maybe there is some room for places offering a different experience depending on the preferences of their customers.

However there are very serious limitations to this approach. Any organisation that is regulated and/or by the government, where there is a service provided to the public, will need to fall into line – nurseries, schools, colleges, universities, public transport, council sports and leisure facilities to name but a few. There’s little possibility of voting with your wallet there.

We’d have to set up a more or less parallel society, or found a new country…

17292 ▶▶ anon, replying to Julian, 11, #384 of 413 🔗

Well said. New normal is orwellian and deeply sinister in concept.

It scared the shit out of me when i first heard it and i knew it would be pushed into the narrative

Such evil.

17255 R Evans, #385 of 413 🔗

Just to add a story about the misreporting of cause of death on death certificates, one of my sister’s friends is a solicitor specialising in wills. One of her clients had lung cancer and was rushed into hospital recently coughing up blood. On arrival he was tested for Covid-19 and the test result was negative. Sadly, the next day he died. The cause of death was marked as Covid-19 on the death certificate! What can you say?

17265 Old Bill, 11, #386 of 413 🔗

‘Bobs cartoon’ in the blog above is quite amusing, however it is incomplete. What it should say is:

“You may have been sold a national lockdown. Unfortunately there is no compensation for this, but we will be halving your old age pension in order to pay for it. Thank you for your contribution”

17269 karate56, 7, #387 of 413 🔗

The SAGE zeslots out to in force, having a scaremongers mongers tea party. What i don’t understand is why they seem to aim their vehement objection at English government. I may be wrong but lockdown fan club founders Sturgeon and Drakeford are being even more liberal with easing than Johnson. Why isn’t SAGE’s ire aimed at them? Could this be political by any chance? Woke Left motivated by any chance? Surely not…

17271 Fiat, replying to Fiat, 4, #389 of 413 🔗

Last week I undertook an observational survey of mask and glove use at my local supermarket. I did the same again, same time and place, and the results suggest that mask wearing is on the increase. Results (last week’s in brackets):
Mask 15% (12%), gloves 12% (14%), mask and gloves 18% (10%), nothing 55% (64%). So those wearing neither masks and gloves is now only just in the majority……

17298 ▶▶ Tenchy, replying to Fiat, 3, #390 of 413 🔗

I concur. It seems like the incidence of mask wearing is increasing everywhere you go. I’m betting that nearly all the people wearing masks are not aware of the basic fact that the mask protects others rather than themselves. If, indeed, they offer any protection whatsoever, to anyone.

17318 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Tenchy, 4, #391 of 413 🔗

Wearing a mask non stop will kill your immune system eventually. Think of all those impurities you exhale that you then breathe back in.

General doctor’s advice

Anyway takes about 5 mins to look that up (avoid any article dated 2020 by the way!!!). 2019 or before

So these dickheads think they are protecting themselves and others, but are in fact killing themselves slowly… You could not make it up

17304 ▶▶ Steve, replying to Fiat, #392 of 413 🔗

Interesting in my local supermarket (where I am going again soon this afternoon) over the last few visits mask wearing seemed to be slightly declining. Quite a few wearing sometimes grubby looking gloves.

17350 ▶▶▶ Steve, replying to Steve, #393 of 413 🔗

Just back from my shop in a medium-large Morrisons. It was at capacity with a small queue to get in, I saw fewer masks than a few days ago, about 6 I think. Didn’t look how many gloves.

17311 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Fiat, #394 of 413 🔗

Not many in my Lidl today. Maybe 4-5. All young. Looming like complete idiots.
At least you know who to avoid – mask wearers are obviously bedwetting f-wits who you wouldn’t wanna be friends with anyway.

17319 ▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Fiat, 3, #395 of 413 🔗

We walked from Buxton to Whaley Bridge down the Goyt Valley yesterday, about 9 miles in perfect weather during which we must have seen 200+ people. Cars were arriving at Errwood reservoir car-park non-stop and we met several friendly locals on the way and family groups, one of which was very happy to tell us they don’t live together. The atmosphere was relaxed and happy with very few ‘swervers’ and no masks!!!

When we got back to Whaley Bridge we saw 3; two of them worn by lone drivers of whom one had it over his mouth but not his nose. A favourite cafe has re-opened for take-away, strictly anti-socially distanced, of course. It was hot and stuffy in there and we were shocked to see the really nice owner wearing a sinister black mask which she said was to avoid frightening people. Really?? We’re going to work on her next week.

[Generally, in the Wild North West, mask-wearing seems to be on the decline…..so far but we’ve had emails from train companies telling us we need to wear them if we want to travel with them. They are squandering god knows how much on re-fitting carriages for anti-socially distancing their non-existent passengers.]

17334 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, #396 of 413 🔗

I live near London, haven’t owned a car for more than 20 years, don’t like driving and have been a keen user of public transport, but I am almost certainly going to buy a car and drive instead of taking the train, bus or tube, and avoid London. I can’t face being herded around, made to wear a mask, queue, not be able to get on the train I want to get, get harrassed by marshals in hi-vis jackets etc.

17296 ▶▶ IanE, replying to swedenborg, 3, #398 of 413 🔗

And people say the lockdowns were not a conspiracy!

17310 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to swedenborg, 7, #399 of 413 🔗

It’s absolutely remarkable how similar a process has happened everywhere. Central gvt (and their ‘data’ agencies and academic advisors) effectively ignoring the emergency planners and public health bodies. It was always totally and completely political.
Which means there literally needs to be a Hague trial. Politics has killed millions and ruined billions of people in the name of a common cold.

17281 sam, replying to sam, 2, #400 of 413 🔗

SAGE committee minutes have been released

17307 Awkward Git, replying to Awkward Git, 11, #402 of 413 🔗

Just had a chat over the fence with my neighbours I haven’t seen hide nor hair of for 10 weeks (nothing unusual in that in case you think I should have knocked their door sooner as they jet off at random to their pad in Spain and it can be months between sightings in normal times), he’s been hiding away as he had a heart attack in January and he’s been scared silly ever since and even quarantines his mail for 3 days and sanitises the food deliveries.

Went through the sceptics viewpoint quoting days, names, numbers, facts, rumour, gossip etc all the way from the 1st vaping deaths in the USA last year via the military links between Maryland, Seattle, Honolulu and Wuhan; the links all the listened to experts have to a certain billionaire, falsification of death certificates etc he’s not so scared anymore.

He even said he may check out some of it this afternoon as he always thought the TV news was bit odd.

Chipping away one sheeple at a time.

17312 ▶▶ Gillian, replying to Awkward Git, 5, #403 of 413 🔗

Good for you. It is hopeful that the message was listened to and, at the very least, aroused curiosity in the listener. The sceptic message on lockdown is one of HOPE; often the sceptic side of an argument seeks to remove hope and replace it with cynicism and despair. We are lucky that hope is on our side. People will always respond to a hopeful message delivered with respect to the listener. We must not be seen to be “laughing” at them for being taken in by the mainstream propaganda; this is a turnoff which will cause ears to be shut.

17313 Mimi, replying to Mimi, 6, #404 of 413 🔗

Here’s one consequence of lockdown that no one has mentioned: increase in outdoor toileting.

Yesterday my family drove up to North Carolina to hike part of the Art Loeb Trail. (I dropped husband and kids off at the Blue Ridge Parkway, and drove the car around the trail head at Davidson River Campground. Then I walked up the trail until I met them heading toward me, and we all went down to the car together. They did this 17-mile (or so – no one is quite sure) stretch in slightly under 8 hours, which is pretty fast!)

Anyway! North Carolina is still rigidly shut down. That means no toilets anywhere. Not at the gas stations, not at McDonald’s, certainly not in the campground. This leaves but one alternative, which is going behind a tree. Now, of course that is expected when walking in the wilderness, and a quick wee on a mountain laurel never hurt anyone.

But it’s not always a quick wee, and it can’t always be in real wilderness. Of course our great cities have been awash in male urine for decades (Paris – never change!), but one of the hallmarks of civilization is that we do our big and little jobs in specific places to keep our sewage contained. The UN and WHO have been combatting “open defecation” for years. See: https://news.un.org/en/story/2019/11/1051561

So now we can travel as if we were in the developing world, yet to experience the “transformational benefits” of toilets. So natural! Hooray for lockdown!

17323 ▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Mimi, 3, #405 of 413 🔗

Very good point! We are pushing our local council to open up the public toilets, so far to no avail. Not having them open is disadvantaging many people including ‘key workers’ such as bus drivers and, as you say, is a growing public health issue.

17315 Awkward Git, replying to Awkward Git, 1, #406 of 413 🔗

Some good studies about facemasks and their use if you scroll down the comments:


17320 ▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Awkward Git, 3, #407 of 413 🔗

I managed to be passing ‘Click’ on the BBC whilst on my exercise bike (don’t make a habit of watching BBC) and noticed that they were, very subtly, extolling the virtues of face masks by interviewing denizens of Taiwan and their ‘successful’ containment of virus where masks were a big feature. ‘Click’ presenter nodding knowingly every time a so-called benefit of wearing masks was mentioned. Call me paranoid, but another way of making the absurd and visibly compliant measures acceptable.

17331 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Nigel Baldwin, #408 of 413 🔗

It may be deliberate, it may be just lazy journalism. Most BBC reports I see these days are incredibly superficial and assume the viewer or reader has the intelligence and attention span of a primary school child.

17325 ▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Awkward Git, #409 of 413 🔗

If you want a laugh about millenial car-driving mask-wearers. (We all need a laugh):


17328 ▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 1, #410 of 413 🔗

The trouble with that video (which I really liked) is that some people will think it’s serious and not a piss take. (Otherwise why would they wear masks?)

17332 ▶▶ AidanR, replying to Awkward Git, #411 of 413 🔗

Good lord, Legiron… he’s been blogging one hell of a long time… a good chap.

17397 ▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to AidanR, #412 of 413 🔗

Done some epic rants in the past, very enjoyable.

116627 Latest News – Lockdown Sceptics, #413 of 413 🔗

[…] this explains why a papaya tested positive in […]


106 users made 413 comments today.

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