Last updated2020-06-01T18:22:42



18678 FistfulOfDollars, replying to FistfulOfDollars, 6, #1 of 1297 🔗

Apologies, I haven’t read today’s article, but please tell me this is a joke…


18682 ▶▶ Poppy, replying to FistfulOfDollars, 38, #2 of 1297 🔗

The police cannot enforce it: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/police-cant-burst-your-bedroom-22119909

The police don’t have the power to enter homes to break up two people bonking – they can still only enter if they suspect that ‘serious criminal activity’ is taking place, something which is enshrined under another existing law anyway.

It definitely seems odd that this law has been brought in now, when things are meant to be easing. It was always part of the government guidance but why explicitly legislate for it now? Commenters on the previous update reckoned it was a curfew in all but name to make the ‘tracking and tracing’ (already unenforceable) slightly easier, but I wonder if the government foresaw that the MSM would blow this up as the ‘sex law’ and end up scaring people into compliance. It almost feels as if they’re trolling us now.

Even if it is an unenforceable legal technicality, it is one which should never, ever be on our statute books.

18685 ▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Poppy, 15, #3 of 1297 🔗

They can go hang! Boris being a libertarian must be an April Fools joke!

18689 ▶▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to Bella Donna, 18, #4 of 1297 🔗

He’s not a libertarian, he’s a populist.

19047 ▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Bella Donna, 13, #5 of 1297 🔗

He’s a libertine, not a libertarian.

18714 ▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Poppy, 24, #6 of 1297 🔗

And by means of a SI drawn the day before Parliament returns. I am hoping that one or more MPs kick up a fuss, if not a Lord Sumption. Enforceable or not, and it is the case I believe from what other posters have already said on the earlier thread, an SI is less water-tight than the Act it adjoins to, this government has taken away all our civil liberties, including now, the right to form relationships and pro-create. This is very scary!

19301 ▶▶▶▶ James007, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 9, #7 of 1297 🔗

It is scary, and it is surprising that this is even possible. I hope that in time we will have some constitutional protections which limit the authority of any Parliament. Ideally throughout the Union, but perhaps more than likely – just protecting England and Wales. Our constitutional situation is complicated, but I thought we already had such protections.

19525 ▶▶▶▶▶ South Coast Worker, replying to James007, 4, #8 of 1297 🔗

The lockdown is completely unconstitutional in America, yet it has still happened.

19535 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to James007, 4, #9 of 1297 🔗

Constitutional protections, though, are only effective if the courts will enforce them. And as we have seen with the Dolan challenge, if the courts are with the government (rather than, as Hitchens pointed out the other day, in political sympathy with the challenge as with the anti-Brexit cases) then they can easily string any challenge out until most of the damage has been done.

18855 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Poppy, 4, #10 of 1297 🔗

Totally screws the hotel/camping businesses too..
Does it mean Antonia Staats (Ferguson’s girlfriend) or Ferguson himself can be prosecuted?

18951 ▶▶▶▶ T. Prince, replying to Carrie, #11 of 1297 🔗

No, he’s different 😉

18943 ▶▶▶ T. Prince, replying to Poppy, 12, #12 of 1297 🔗

My son’s mate was having a ‘zoom party’ at his flat in Hebden Bridge, He was alone but the ‘party’ was quite loud. He got a knock on his door, plod had been called because it was reported that he was having a party with ‘real’ human beings…. Apparently a neighbour had snitched on him.

18962 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to T. Prince, 18, #13 of 1297 🔗

I hope the neighour gets some kind of police harrassment in retribution for wasting their time – besides being a complete arsehole.

18964 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Poppy, 17, #14 of 1297 🔗

Well serious criminal activity will take place tomorrow between two old women seeing each other for the first time in three months and catching up over a cup of tea.

18726 ▶▶ Hubes, replying to FistfulOfDollars, 5, #15 of 1297 🔗

The police can’t enforce any of this drivel.

It does say you can stay at somebody else’s house if you are providing “Emergency assistance” which is vague and open to
interpretation. Stay wherever you want and just make up something that you thought was an emergency if somehow you get asked why.

18774 ▶▶ A13, replying to FistfulOfDollars, 8, #16 of 1297 🔗

This is just embarassing. The whole world must be laughing.

18871 ▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to FistfulOfDollars, 20, #17 of 1297 🔗

There was a play that ran in the West End for years called ‘No sex please, we’re British.’ I thought it was a comedy, not a dystopian drama.

18903 ▶▶ John P, replying to FistfulOfDollars, 30, #18 of 1297 🔗

Damn! I’ll just have to tell all those women who’ve been waiting patiently in the queue outside my house to go home then. And they’ve all been so good – all keeping two metres apart.

Seriously speaking, the government can just f*ck off.

*with apologies to Toby and those of a sensitive disposition for the bad language.

18970 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to John P, 5, #19 of 1297 🔗

Your language shows great restraint under the circumstances, though it was an ironic choice of verb!

19166 ▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to John P, 4, #20 of 1297 🔗

According to a human rights lawyer he says if the woman is a prostitute it’s OK because its her job!

19002 ▶▶ crimsonpirate, replying to FistfulOfDollars, #21 of 1297 🔗

probably done with a view to combating prostitution in a post covid world

19153 ▶▶ AnotherSceptic, replying to FistfulOfDollars, 7, #22 of 1297 🔗

Hahaha…there is NO WAY that I am giving up sex with my girlfriend, it’s too good. But if plod want to come along & watch….that’s fine with me.
Seriously, this is ludicrous, I showed my girlfriend this article yesterday & she was like seriously???
Lockdown is meant to be easing up, but you can’t have sex with your partner????….The UK is fast turning into the laughing stock of the world.

What next? Be arrested for farting?
Here is a question though, would Mr Cummings abide by this silly rule?….lol.

19352 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to AnotherSceptic, 5, #23 of 1297 🔗

What next? Be arrested for farting?
Wear a mask over your bum?

20092 ▶▶▶ Sue D, replying to AnotherSceptic, 1, #24 of 1297 🔗

Aside from the lockdown, the way regulations have been multiplying over the years I have wondered how long it will be before we have to purchase an annual licence to fart.

19159 ▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to FistfulOfDollars, 11, #25 of 1297 🔗

If you hadn’t realised by now this has nothing to do with the virus it’s all about control. All those with smartphones better make sure have them turned off. Big brother is here! So much for Libertarianism!

20231 ▶▶ ScuzzaMan, replying to FistfulOfDollars, #26 of 1297 🔗

Downing Street today insisted police would show “ discretion ” and “ common sense .”

Because we’ve seen a lot of that, haven’t we?

This is a sure sign of really bad legislation; it leaves significant matters to the “discretion” (or lack thereof) of the individuals involved. This means you can never know if you’re breaking the law, leading to an increase in general anxiety, and you can never know if Dominic Cummings broke the law, even if you had an accurate account of his actions.

In other words, the establishment uses bad laws to leave themselves an escape from having to keep the laws they impose on the rest of us.

Law by regulation is not law but tyranny. The Sheriff of Nottingham is alive and well and calling it in to Westminster on Zoom every day.

18684 Bella Donna, replying to Bella Donna, 4, #27 of 1297 🔗

I’d buy one if it weren’t sourced from China!

18686 ▶▶ Banzai!, replying to Bella Donna, #28 of 1297 🔗

Staffordshire pottery Toby?

19414 ▶▶ Geraint, replying to Bella Donna, #29 of 1297 🔗

Aye. The bulldog looks a bit sad as well. I’d have preferred to see one punching ‘Prof’ Ferguson, with Witty, van Dam, Hancock et al queuing up behind….

18690 AN other lockdown sceptic, replying to AN other lockdown sceptic, 35, #30 of 1297 🔗

Yes, yes, yes please to a new political movement to restore our Common Law rights.

The following three words in Toby’s update today have made me rather happy –

Watch this space.’

18954 ▶▶ T. Prince, replying to AN other lockdown sceptic, 4, #31 of 1297 🔗

Yep, something good has to come from this pantomime

20285 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to AN other lockdown sceptic, 1, #32 of 1297 🔗

Absolutely. None of the current main parties offer any meaningful choice to the current policies of imposing whatever the UN has mandated.
As Tucker Carlson (who should run for President in 2024, as he’s having to tell Trump what to do) said last night, we’re seeing a class war play out, but one imposed upon and against the working classes.

I wonder how long it would take the establishment to attack such an alternative party, to label them as “extremists” or “far right”?

18691 RDawg, replying to RDawg, 148, #33 of 1297 🔗

Today I wrote my third and final response to my MP. I feel I have pushed things as far as I can with her but she’s still not listening. Here’s what I wrote in full:

Dear Munira,

Thank you for replying. This will be my final e-mail I will send to you on the subject, as I feel we have reached a stalemate – especially on the subject of social distancing.

I note that in your response you say, “public health and safety is [your] primary concern”. Given that this is your view, may I ask why the government does not:

1) Ban all traffic on UK roads with immediate effect? (we suffer 40,000 U.K. deaths from air pollution alone; 25,000 serious injuries and 1,750 deaths from road traffic incidents annually).
2) Ban the sale and consumption of alcohol? (7,500 alcohol related deaths per year).
3) Ban the sale of cigarettes and all forms of smoking? (78,000 deaths from smoking each year in the U.K.)

In these above examples, it is commonly accepted that all of them involve an element of risk, and will inevitably lead to some loss of life as a direct result of allowing them to continue. However, the risks posed are up to us, the public, to decide if they outweigh the benefits and not the government. Everything in life involves an element of risk and sadly the government has become completely blinkered with the risks of catching and dying of Covid-19, much to the detriment of everything else. Why has Covid-19 now become the de facto deadliest disease in the world? There are significantly greater risks encountered by all of us every single day of our lives, yet these have been either ignored or allowed to continue because they are widely regarded as acceptable and normal. May I add that according to David Spiegelhalter, the UK’s top statistician, the risk of coronavirus for the young is “staggeringly low”, as he condemned the government’s “embarrassing” handling of Covid-19.

This obsession with all things Covid-19 and making everything 100% “safe” needs to end, and it needs to end now. As outlined in my previous e-mail, the risks associated from continuing lockdown and social distancing are far, far greater than the number of lives that are allegedly being saved by continuing with current measures:
– Multiple suicides due to the mental health crisis
– Up to a predicted 60,000 avoidable cancer deaths now the NHS has abandoned cancer screenings and treatment (ref: Prof. Karol Sikora), again “due to Covid-19”
– 2 million operations cancelled by the NHS, “due to Covid-19”.
– Dental treatment withheld for three months “due to Covid-19”.
– A total devastation of the economy, mass unemployment, multiple businesses failing – I’m sure I don’t need to remind you of the links between economic recession and poverty, reduced life expectancy, poorer healthcare, poor mental health and increased suicides? Do these lives not matter?

There is also the fact that living in the current way is unhealthy, miserable, unsustainable and destroying all the elements of life that give us joy and purpose. If I had told you three months ago that this government would make it illegal to hug another person outside your own household, would you have believed me? I am not allowed to hold my baby niece in my arms, to have physical contact with my own girlfriend. I cannot go to church, yet the government says I can go to B&Q or Tesco’s. Do you appreciate the inconsistency of these new rules? None of them (which are being made up every day), are facing any parliamentary scrutiny and as such are both unconstitutional and have no legal basis in our so-called free and democratic society.

I hope that you and the rest of our representative MPs will see sense before it is too late, and before we risk more irreparable damage to the economy, our lives and everything else that makes life worth living. The entire debacle could have been completely avoided with simple hand-washing, isolating at home when sick and proper shielding of the elderly and vulnerable.

I will leave you with this quote from Lord Sumption, who from day one has been calling out the nonsense of this lockdown and social distancing:

“Somebody has got to stand up for a sense of proportion, somebody has got to stand up for a measure of balance and somebody has got to stand up for the millions of people who are being propelled into misery and in many cases financial ruin by the lockdown. I’m really sorry that it should be me and I think that it’s a sad reflection on the quality of our democracy that it should be me. But if no one else is going to do it, then I am.”

18694 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to RDawg, 18, #34 of 1297 🔗

Great letter.

18723 ▶▶ Mark, replying to RDawg, 18, #35 of 1297 🔗

Good stuff! Would be nice to think that a politician reading that would feel at least some sense of personal shame.

18735 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Mark, 13, #36 of 1297 🔗

Some will now probably – I imagine at least some already know all this is nonsense but don’t have the guts to say so.

Some will in due time.

And I guess some will carry on the rest of their lives thinking they did good.

18887 ▶▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Julian, 16, #37 of 1297 🔗

If they don’t know it’s contradictory nonsense they shouldn’t be an MP. Spineless, all 650 of them.

18915 ▶▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 11, #38 of 1297 🔗

Yup, not a single one has done anything so far that would save them in my eyes.

20304 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to Julian, #39 of 1297 🔗

Steve Baker gets a stay of execution while we string the rest of them up. If he’s slipped up by the time we’ve done 649, he can go last.

18804 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Mark, 13, #40 of 1297 🔗

I would hope that too. But my MP just fobbed me off with platitudes. I think the only thing that will have any effect on them is just to ignore them at the next election. I have told mine I will never vote again and I mean it.

18890 ▶▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to kh1485, 3, #41 of 1297 🔗

But sadly they don’t care, that’s one less vote for the other guy.

19149 ▶▶▶▶ steve, replying to kh1485, 2, #42 of 1297 🔗

As the guy below said you can’t tell them you won’t vote as they can still be voted in if only one person votes. You need to tell them You will vote for someone else.

19162 ▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to steve, 3, #43 of 1297 🔗

Point taken. But I felt I had to say something like that to let her know just how disgusted I am with her government. And the comment that tipped me over the edge was “I’m sorry if the virus has impacted on your business”. So bloody tactless on so many different levels ….

19314 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ James007, replying to kh1485, 10, #44 of 1297 🔗

A virus impacting your business, would be some of your staff being off sick.

“I’m sorry if the virus has impacted on your business”.

I’m sorry if blowing up your house may have caused you some personal inconvenience.

There are some people yet to be impacted by this. Still making money. Working from home. Drinking in the garden. Thinking that it is a bit of a shame that their foreign holiday will be postponed. I would’ve thought, that MPs may at least be aware of the level of destruction.. It is shameful, the lack of any sort of opposition to the most extreme policies we have seen in modern times.

19322 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to James007, 9, #45 of 1297 🔗

I know, that’s why I fired off a pretty angry response. And to add insult to injury, to find that some cretin had dobbed me in for serving tea outside really pissed me off. No doubt that civic-minded twat (s’cuse language) is either still in work or is being bribed by tax-payers’ money to continue to hide behind the sofa!

19336 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ James007, replying to kh1485, #46 of 1297 🔗

What are the consequences of being caught serving tea outside?

19340 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to James007, 16, #47 of 1297 🔗

The town council can revoke our licence to use the area for outdoor seating. So, while I am all in favour of being my usual stroppy cow self (!), I have to at least look as though I am abiding by the rules! (however, there are no rules to say you can’t serve takeaways in china cups!). Just now I did something really reckless, I offered an older lady my arm as she was struggling to climb over a step. She took it glady … As I’ve said before, I won’t let this strip me of my humanity and if they cart me off for that, then they cart me off. Thinking of re-naming my shop The Old Normal! 🙂

19368 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to kh1485, #48 of 1297 🔗

I mean ‘glad l y’ …

19384 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to kh1485, 5, #49 of 1297 🔗

Good for you.

This is what I meant the other day when I said you should bend when necessary for you and your business to survive. We should all regard ourselves as under foreign occupation, and obey the rules or pay lip-service to them when necessary, while seeking to evade and undermine them at every other opportunity. There might be occasions for open defiance, but not when the inevitable result would be closure of your business.

19405 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Mark, 1, #50 of 1297 🔗

Yes, you are right. It just goes against the grain of my general bolshyness to adhere to something that is so obviously a pile of crap. I would make a lousy poker player …

20045 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cbird, replying to kh1485, 1, #51 of 1297 🔗

I would be straight into that shop! 👍

19370 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to James007, 4, #52 of 1297 🔗

Most of the MPs are the ones very happily drinking in their gardens and not having to meet their constituents in the supermarket. Many won’t witness what’s been going on, especially as the MSM don’t seem too keen to show it. Worse still, MPs have been paid a huge wodge of dosh to enjoy their gardens.

The recent story about Jamie Stone is a good example. If he can’t physically get back to Parliament because he needs to care for his wife, he should resign his MP-ship and be her carer for £66 per week. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/02/flora-needs-me-mp-caring-for-wife-hits-out-at-jacob-rees-moggs-plan

19356 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to kh1485, 2, #53 of 1297 🔗

She isn’t called Priti Patel by any chance?
Besides, it wasn’t the virus that’s impacted on your business, it’s the stupid lockdown.

19380 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Cheezilla, 1, #54 of 1297 🔗

No, Kemi Badenoch who, I believe has some sort of role in the Treasury (she was in the group photo prior to Rishi’s Budget). This fact makes her comments to me all the more galling.

19042 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Mark, 3, #55 of 1297 🔗

I’m sure many will jump on it if the public mood changes. They’ll then make up some lame excuse as to why they had to wait before they took up the cause.

18725 ▶▶ IanE, replying to RDawg, 13, #56 of 1297 🔗

Excellent e-mail!

As no moderately intelligent and sane person could argue with your reasoning, I am awaiting, with bated breath, news of your MP’s complete capitulation and determined intent to campaign as an active Lockdown sceptic.

18812 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to IanE, 13, #57 of 1297 🔗

‘moderately intelligent and sane’ does not appear to describe any political figure, great or small, at the moment.

18733 ▶▶ Julian, replying to RDawg, 6, #58 of 1297 🔗

A very fine letter indeed.

18743 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to RDawg, 6, #59 of 1297 🔗

Well said. Let’s hope that this will give your MP food for thought.

18761 ▶▶ Aremen, replying to RDawg, 20, #60 of 1297 🔗

RDawg: brilliant! Might I suggest – and I would value other contributors’ opinions on this suggestion- that you slightly tweak this email, taking out the references to your previous correspondence with your MP and inserting a more general introduction in order to produce a template? Then as many as possible of us who value this website could send the templated version to our own MPs. I would certainly send to my own MP, a Conservative. I suspect such emails would have more impact on Tory MPs.

18762 ▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Aremen, 2, #61 of 1297 🔗

Why not tweak it yourself, and send it to yours if RDawg doesn’t mind!

18768 ▶▶▶▶ Aremen, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 4, #62 of 1297 🔗

Well, I could, but that feels a bit like plagiarism, and RDawg not only deserves the credit, but also clearly has a way with words, and might be able to produce an attention-grabbing introduction.

18766 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Aremen, 10, #63 of 1297 🔗

My MP is Tory and has ignored all my emails, first one sent many weeks ago. Won’t be getting my vote next time around.

18772 ▶▶▶▶ IanE, replying to Julian, 5, #64 of 1297 🔗

Me too!

19286 ▶▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to IanE, 11, #65 of 1297 🔗

I have now had a reply, to ONE of the emails I sent. The email was PARTLY about Cummings (who I don’t care much about either way, personally) but that was really a ruse to get her to respond to the other part, about indefinite social distancing. She answered the Cummings part and ignored the rest.

That tells me all I need to know about her.

19288 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to Julian, 4, #66 of 1297 🔗

Career politicians. They don’t think. They’re told what to think.

19316 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ James007, replying to Mike Smith, 12, #67 of 1297 🔗

I loved Peter Hitchen’s comment the other day, about politics being like “showbiz for the ugly”. To look and to feel important, but not to lead.

19408 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to James007, 3, #68 of 1297 🔗

Yes indeed. Even regarding the Cummings part, she wasn’t actually answering my point, she just saw the word “Cummings” and took her boilerplate email on the subject and put my name at the top.

18780 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Aremen, 4, #69 of 1297 🔗

Should be sent to all MPs!

18832 ▶▶▶ RDawg, replying to Aremen, 14, #70 of 1297 🔗

Hi Aremen,

I’ve written three different letters to my MP now. I’ve posted all of them in the comments section on this site (although I can’t remember on which dates!)

I am very happy for anyone to use the wording to contact their respective MP. I’m not concerned at all about “plagiarism” or being credited – it is far more important that as many people as possible are contacting their local MPs and speaking out about the madness we are living through.

So by all means, if you find it helpful, please use the wording and share it far and wide. And of course, feel free to tweak the wording as necessary. Good luck! 👍🏼 😀

18870 ▶▶▶▶ Aremen, replying to RDawg, 2, #71 of 1297 🔗

Ok. Thanks. I’ll take that as your consent. I was hoping that we could have identically worded letters from afficionadoes of this site to lots of MPs, especially Tories, to produce maximum impact, hence my suggestion, but I’ll let it rest now. I’ll send a version of your letter to my MP.

19025 ▶▶▶▶▶ RDawg, replying to Aremen, 6, #72 of 1297 🔗

It might be worth suggesting to Toby that he puts a MP letter template on his website? I’m not a professional journalist, so with Toby’s power of prose, he could spruce it up and give it some va va voom, as Thierry Henry might say.

19367 ▶▶▶▶▶ Aremen, replying to Aremen, 3, #73 of 1297 🔗

I’ve now sent the letter to my MP, slightly modified by taking out personal references and adding a couple of my own grievances and views, but generally the same wording.

19484 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ RDawg, replying to Aremen, 1, #74 of 1297 🔗

Nice work!

19216 ▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Aremen, 1, #75 of 1297 🔗

I’ve a Tory MP and he’s conspicuous by his absence in Parliamentary debates (what little there has been) and non-replies of any correspondence.

Maybe he thinks just because he has a 25000 majority he doesn’t have to bother.

19382 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Awkward Git, 1, #76 of 1297 🔗

A survey was done just before the election last year and a list of all 600+ MPs was produced, ranked by how much work they’d done for their constituents over the previous 3 years, based on Hansard and interaction with constituents. (I wish I’d kept the link.)

It was very noticeable that Labour MPs were predominant in the top half and Tories became much more numerous in the bottom half.

Our Labour MP, who had only done one term, was about a third of the way down the list, so one who worked hard for her constituents. She’d replaced a Tory slimeball who only does anything if there’s a photo op. Unfortunately he was voted back in and hasn’t been heard from since

19429 ▶▶▶ Hopeful, replying to Aremen, 2, #77 of 1297 🔗

I’d welcome such a template. My MP is the Minister for Local Government. He has ignored my somewhat lengthy email of several weeks ago. It dealt with the covid19 adjustments to the 1984 (yes I know) health act, and some other early covid concerns i.e. Bill Gates et al. Would like to credit RDawg.

18788 ▶▶ Kath Andrews, replying to RDawg, 4, #78 of 1297 🔗


18809 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to RDawg, 7, #79 of 1297 🔗

Thank you RDawg, what a brilliant, hard-hitting letter.

18924 ▶▶ tides, replying to RDawg, 27, #80 of 1297 🔗

I sent a version of Rdawgs letter to my MP and received this reply:


Thank you. I won’t give an extensive reply as I am one of a minority of MP’s who agree with you and if you review the articles and speeches I’ve made at http://www.andrewgriffithmp.com you will see that as a consistent theme.

Thank you for writing and let’s hope we can release the lock down quickly now.

Kind regards,


18971 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to tides, 7, #81 of 1297 🔗

Wow, seems you’ve got a good one!

19001 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to tides, 2, #82 of 1297 🔗


19027 ▶▶▶ RDawg, replying to tides, 4, #83 of 1297 🔗

Fantastic! Nice work Paul. Now we just need to convince the other 649 😉

Ha ha, no but seriously, the more we collectively lobby our MPs, the greater we can effect real, positive change.

Well done for writing to your MP.

19039 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to tides, 2, #84 of 1297 🔗

Well done!!!

19858 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to tides, 3, #85 of 1297 🔗

Hmm. A quick look at the website and Twitter feed was somewhat underwhelming. Some stuff about air bridges, opening things up quicker, but no real opposition to what has been and done and what is planned.

I may be asking too much, but some really need to tell it like it is – this has been a monstrous mistake and must stop now.

18956 ▶▶ T. Prince, replying to RDawg, 1, #86 of 1297 🔗

Careful, you might just get a knock on the door in the early hours…..

19017 ▶▶ bluefreddy, replying to RDawg, 1, #87 of 1297 🔗

Wow, that’s a really good letter. Thank you!

19224 ▶▶ John Smith, replying to RDawg, #88 of 1297 🔗

Just an aside…

It is not common knowledge although some claim even the apparently straight forward and simple action of writing a letter to your mp is enough to earn you a file within one of the many security and intelligence agencies that thrive in this country.

Just passing it on…

19262 ▶▶▶ anon, replying to John Smith, 3, #89 of 1297 🔗

Whilst that may be true it serves to discourage people from writing to their mps

That letter is powerful. I hope as many fuckwit mps read it (or a variant).

Enough is enough.

19298 ▶▶▶▶ anon, replying to anon, #90 of 1297 🔗

*as possible

19312 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to John Smith, 4, #91 of 1297 🔗

Posting on here even more so. 🙂

I would die ashamed not to be in their filing system somewhere.

19469 ▶▶ Geraint, replying to RDawg, 6, #92 of 1297 🔗

Nice one. Question: What is difference between smoking and Covid 19? A: Tax revenues. If they could monetise it we’d out of lockdown like the proverbial off a shovel 🙂

19720 ▶▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to Geraint, 3, #93 of 1297 🔗

They are monetising cv19, the vaccine will be the money making element.

19698 ▶▶ Fed up, replying to RDawg, 1, #94 of 1297 🔗

Do you mind if I heavily crib this in my letter to my MP?

19829 ▶▶▶ RDawg, replying to Fed up, #95 of 1297 🔗

Of course. That’s why I shared it. Please feel free to use.

19841 ▶▶ Scotty87, replying to RDawg, 7, #96 of 1297 🔗

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news RDawg, but I suspect the Rt Honorable Member for Twickenham will be keeping you waiting for a response after receiving your fantastic letter; perhaps indefinitely.

The reason being, how can you cut through such plain logic and good common sense without outing yourself as a risk-averse, bed-wetting hypochondriac? How can you defend such draconian curtailments of our civil liberties in the face of overwhelming evidence that this course of action is quickly killing more people than it is supposed to save? How can you continue to defend a government that is wilfully vandalising its own economy, consigning millions to a bleak future of poverty and unemployment, all in the name of a routine virus that THEY KNOW has a survival rate of 99%?

We are witnessing the greatest failure in modern political history – the doubling down of this bizarre and hysterical response to a disease no worse than a bad strain of seasonal flu. Boris and Co. are unforgivably flying in the face of many decorated experts who are shouting “fire!” but this cowardly government – being spurred on by a mendacious, unhinged media, are carrying on like a Kamikaze pilot hurtling towards his inevitable demise.

We must resist at every opportunity their desire to take all of us down with them.

20191 ▶▶▶ RDawg, replying to Scotty87, #97 of 1297 🔗

100% agree with you.

19947 ▶▶ Jim J, replying to RDawg, 1, #98 of 1297 🔗

One interesting observation about the 3 examples of risky behaviour you cite. What do they have in common? The govt profits from taxing them all… so, if we pay Covid tax we should be fine to get on with life!

20100 ▶▶ GrantM, replying to RDawg, -5, #99 of 1297 🔗

And your MP will not listen to you because you are all selfish self centred assholes. You call people who choose to wear masks bed wetting idiots. You are just as bad at dook and gloom as the BBC and the government are. And you think you are the good guys?!?……..fuck you, Lockdown Sceptics are just as bad!

20194 ▶▶▶ RDawg, replying to GrantM, 1, #100 of 1297 🔗

Ha ha. The troll is back again. Oh how we’ve missed you “Anoymous”! 😘

20235 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to GrantM, 1, #101 of 1297 🔗

‘dook and gloom’ I like – ok if I use it, anoymous ?

20326 ▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to GrantM, #102 of 1297 🔗

Youth same anonymous? Did you watch the link I posted for you further down?

20260 ▶▶ Annabel Andrew, replying to RDawg, 1, #103 of 1297 🔗

Have taken sections of this and sent it to Rishi, my MP.- thank you RDawg. I actually believe that he doesn’t agree with lockdown.

18719 Gracie Knoll, replying to Gracie Knoll, 25, #104 of 1297 🔗

From the “Conservative Woman” linked article:

“Current mandatory social distancing measures promoted by infectious disease experts throughout the West are highly reminiscent of the Soviet and Chinese experience with Lysenkoism. This type of policy response to the pandemic has many pseudo-scientific elements and has led to the establishment of a new, destructive, and even deviant state-sponsored religion.”

Absolutely. There are various ways to describe “Social Distancing”, including:


Here’s the challenge for the Government’s witchdoctors-masquerading-as-scientists:

“Please provide EVIDENCE from REPUTABLE PEER-REVIEWED RESEARCH, citing ALL RELEVANT JOURNAL REFERENCES, which support the concept of “Social Distancing” as a scientifically valid way of reducing the effects of a pandemic.”

And then, perhaps, wait for the sound of crickets…..

This pseudoscience should be repeatedly called out for what it is, unless such evidence is forthcoming.

IMHO “Social Distancing” is probably nothing more than a mechanism to inconvenience people as much as possible, so that one of the Holy Grails of this whole pantomime – “THE VACCINE, THE VACCINE, THE VACCINE” – will be enthusiastically accepted by the population even if said vaccine has been inadequately tested.

18745 ▶▶ Mark H, replying to Gracie Knoll, 18, #105 of 1297 🔗

For a few weeks I changed my facebook profile picture to a black circle with “2+2=5” written in it because I’ve seen from the start that virtually everything about this social engineering experiment has been designed to break society – the people that make it up – to the point where they’ll accept and go along with whatever our rulers put in front of us. Whether that’s contact tracing apps, health passports or an un-tested vaccine.

18816 ▶▶▶ Tom Blackburn, replying to Mark H, 15, #106 of 1297 🔗

“There always comes a time in history when the person who dares to say that 2+2=4 is punished with death”.
Albert Camus. The Plague.

19113 ▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Tom Blackburn, 1, #107 of 1297 🔗

‘… but the real question is still whether two and two do, or do not, make four’.

20155 ▶▶▶▶▶ Michael Orpen-Palmer, replying to annie, 2, #108 of 1297 🔗

If you ask that question of an accountant his likely response is, “what do you want it to be?”!

18799 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Gracie Knoll, 4, #109 of 1297 🔗

Not just the vaccine – can track people more easily if they are not too close to each other. Interested to know when it became mandatory to own a smartphone and carry it on you at all time…

18858 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Carrie, 4, #110 of 1297 🔗

They’ve just about succeeded in abolishing the use of cash. Cards will be next and we’ll all have to use phone pay………

18889 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Cheezilla, 2, #111 of 1297 🔗

Or more worryingly, chip in the wrist..

18972 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Carrie, 1, #112 of 1297 🔗


19109 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Cheezilla, 12, #113 of 1297 🔗

It’s another thing we can do – always pay in cash where not explicitly prohibited.

19374 ▶▶▶▶▶ Nel, replying to JohnB, 3, #114 of 1297 🔗

Well said. The more we use cash, the less they control us

19383 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to JohnB, 2, #115 of 1297 🔗

I agree.

19372 ▶▶▶ Nel, replying to Carrie, 1, #116 of 1297 🔗

Very valid point!

20103 ▶▶ Shep, replying to Gracie Knoll, 1, #117 of 1297 🔗

Delingpole’s latest guest, Dr. John Lee is well worth listening to for reason and logic.

18731 Peter Thompson, replying to Peter Thompson, 32, #118 of 1297 🔗

A few weeks ago I watched the Unherd interview with the Swedish expert Dr Gieseke . At the time a comment I noted was he felt that the imposition of lockdown was the easy part ,the difficult part would be getting back to normal. This gentleman has been a voice of sanity in this period of hysteria. Unlike our ” SAGE ” members who appear to be the sort of characters you see on railway station platforms recording numbers in their little note books , this gentleman appears rather academic but normal.

How I thought possibly would the reduction in lockdown and getting back to normal be difficult. Well now we know. In schools we are seeing the antics of the unions, twatterati and left media using all means at their disposal to try and sabatage the return to school . In my local hospital despite there being no covid cases staff are very reluctant to go back to routine work because of ” safety concerns.”

At this rate we will still be locked down until 2021.

18757 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Peter Thompson, 15, #119 of 1297 🔗

The “new normal” is the continuation of lockdown by any other means.

Got an email from my hair salon – compulsory mask wearing when they reopen by customers and staff. I expect they will all be like that. I will become a hippy or buy one of those DIY razors and become a skinhead. Save a bit of money.

The dentist is trickier – can’t treat my own teeth, or check them. Compulsory masks, temperature checks, no waiting room, compulsory hand washing, no toilet, limited appointments due to extra cleaning, £25 covid-19 surchage to pay for extra PPE, other prices going up too, no doubt to cover the fact that they will see fewer patients, from 8th June until further notice no routine work (so fixing all the teeth that went rotten in the last 3 months due to the lockdown). I expect they will be like that too. Maybe a dental holiday to eastern Europe every 6 months for hygienist and checkup, check out some nice beers.

18764 ▶▶▶ Peter Thompson, replying to Julian, 15, #120 of 1297 🔗

Hair salon …is that your local barber ?
Dentists during this whole shambles have been the biggest bed wetters imaginable. The pandemic was at its peak in March yet I dont recall many dentists amongst the covid martyrs .

18773 ▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Peter Thompson, 8, #121 of 1297 🔗

Used to go to a barber, then I guess I must have ended up with more money than sense 🙂

I expect the barbers will have to fall into line, though I am sure there will be a good number of barbers and hairdressers happy to visit homes without all this nonsense. Round my way the young men who all came out to play this weekend often had suspiciously smart, fresh looking fades.

18861 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Peter Thompson, 1, #122 of 1297 🔗

They weren’t allowed to open!

18925 ▶▶▶▶▶ Peter Thompson, replying to Cheezilla, 9, #123 of 1297 🔗

Private dentists could have worked and a very few did ( The ones who did work throughout deserve a medal ) . They could even do drilling and filling with PPE.
NHS dentists unfortunately were led by the hopeless CDO Sara Hurley who was content to throw dentistry back to the age of barber dentists.

19386 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Peter Thompson, #124 of 1297 🔗

Wouldn’t surprise me if it were an insurance problem.

19477 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Arkleston, replying to Peter Thompson, 6, #125 of 1297 🔗

This article supports: 1) masks are ineffective 2) Dentists’ own respiratory immune systems are good at making antibodies against respiratory diseases


The section titled “Respiratory System Defences” confirms my belief that our immune systems are the best snowflakes of all. The slightest insult triggers them. A vast #MeToo movement of epithelial and infiltrating immune cells ready to descend in fury on anything that invades their safe spaces. But you’re not allowed to mention natural immunity these days, even though it has kept us all alive till the present

I wish we could go back to normal normal, but I think we have to put up with even more interesting times.

My school motto was “forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit” which was translated for us as “someday even these things will be a pleasure to remember”. I have to keep persuading myself that it’s true, if only in comparison to what’s coming next…

Thank goodness for like-minded people speaking out on websites like this 😀

18869 ▶▶▶ Gracie Knoll, replying to Julian, 24, #126 of 1297 🔗

Given that the WHO has now decided that masks are unnecessary and INCREASE the risks from coronavirus, perhaps the numpty pseudoscientists advising our numpty Government could explain why hairdressers and customers need to wear them. There is no “aerosol” risk such as that applying to dentists.

Dentists BTW are experts in infection control and therefore could have stayed open throughout. They did so in Germany.

18893 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Gracie Knoll, 12, #127 of 1297 🔗

Whilst many forms of healthcare here in Sweden have moved to various types of distance contact (video consultations where possible), our dentists have remained accessible. No reports here of mass deaths amongst dentists!

18914 ▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Gracie Knoll, 11, #128 of 1297 🔗

Not only that but also mask wearing can lead to long term health problems with breathing and possible issues with the brain (as there is no oxygen coming in, its all CO2) as well as weaken a person’s immune system.

The fact that dentists have closed is a travesty. I was lucky that I managed to complete my treatment before lockdown but am now due for a check up this month. Looks like that will have to wait for awhile now.

19040 ▶▶▶▶ RDawg, replying to Gracie Knoll, 3, #129 of 1297 🔗

Hi, do you have a link to the WHO’s u-turn on mask wearing? There are about a million people I’d like to send this to.

19529 ▶▶▶▶▶ South Coast Worker, replying to RDawg, 2, #130 of 1297 🔗


It’s not an explicit u turn, they just changed their guidelines on when to wear one. Only healthcare workers and those exhibiting symptoms. I was listening to the No Agenda podcast and they have gone barmy over masks in America.

19395 ▶▶▶▶ Sceptique, replying to Gracie Knoll, 1, #131 of 1297 🔗

It takes a while to filter through to policy practice. Many methods and treatments have been challenged by more recent studies but nothing changes.

18904 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Julian, 6, #132 of 1297 🔗

if the hair salon I go to insists on masks, I shan’t be going. A few weeks’ ago I managed to cut my own hair by brutally hacking through it – OK its crooked but its fairly decent and it seems to have settled down now.

18911 ▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Bart Simpson, #133 of 1297 🔗

I think they all will, at least to start with.

20331 ▶▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Bart Simpson, #134 of 1297 🔗

I was always told and it has turned out to be correct the difference between a bad haircut and a good haircut is a week

19404 ▶▶▶ Annabel Andrew, replying to Julian, 4, #135 of 1297 🔗

Well i think they must have made those rules up! My hairdresser has told me what the guidance says and it’s not much- they don’t need masks and just have to be sensible! Time to change your hairdresser methinks!!

19566 ▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Annabel Andrew, 4, #136 of 1297 🔗

Whenever I have a choice I will vote with my feet and my wallet. Tougher if your kids go the local school and it has been turned part-time and into some revolting social distancing experiment, or if your offices insists you go into a perspex cubicle.

18763 ▶▶ paulito, replying to Peter Thompson, 12, #137 of 1297 🔗

Maybe health care workers whose main concern is safety are in the wrong profession.

18814 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to paulito, 7, #138 of 1297 🔗

Their own safety, that is.

19208 ▶▶▶▶ paulito, replying to annie, 2, #139 of 1297 🔗

You’re right Annie. Didn’t make that clear.

19000 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to paulito, 5, #140 of 1297 🔗

Irony of calling the pop up hospitals ‘Nightingale’ should not be lost on anyone.

18732 South Coast Worker, replying to South Coast Worker, 30, #141 of 1297 🔗

When discussing comparisons with flu numbers, it bares repeating, we have had over 40k flu deaths in 2020. When you hear the usual hysterical shrieking of ‘this isn’t the flu!’. They are quite right, the flu is worse. And far more indiscriminate, many more children have died from the flu for instance. These hysterical mothers should prioritise their irrational fears, when complaining of the dangers of sending their kids back to school.

18835 ▶▶ Adele Bull, replying to South Coast Worker, #142 of 1297 🔗

So, sorry to sound a bit thick, I fear that I am! 40k flu deaths as well as the with/ of Covid this year?

19533 ▶▶▶ South Coast Worker, replying to Adele Bull, 1, #143 of 1297 🔗

Yes, if you go to the ONS weekly breakdowns they have a separate section for influenza and pneumonia explicitly not including Covid.

18884 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to South Coast Worker, 25, #144 of 1297 🔗

Over here in Sweden cases and deaths are falling, slowly but surely. About a week and a half ago the number of people in intensive care dropped under 400 for a number of days in a row, giving cause for optimism (even in the MSM here) – now it is close to 300 and will soon drop under that.
Our sixth forms, universities and adult ed are to open as of 15th June, which is kind of neither here nor there, because by then they are all technically on summer break, but it does mean planning for the autumn can be done, admissions sorted etc.
It is completely crazy that the UK is moving in a totally opposite direction and *adding* new rules, where everywhere else is relaxing or abandoning them…

20133 ▶▶▶ Sue D, replying to Carrie, 1, #145 of 1297 🔗

Unfortunately our gov’ts have always been obsessed with rules and regulation – and control.
When Napoleon referred to us as a nation of shopkeepers it would have been more appropriate to describe us as a nation of bureaucrats (or jobsworths).

18886 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to South Coast Worker, 14, #146 of 1297 🔗

“This isn’t the flu!”

No – it’s a common cold that goes very wrong for a tiny minority of people.

19030 ▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to South Coast Worker, 9, #147 of 1297 🔗

Really? And I thought the flu had taken a year’s sabbatical. So they’re keeping that quiet aren’t they? So hang on – brain slowly grinding into gear – if they’re not making a song and dance over something that is as bad as, or even worse, as CV19 then we really are in hidden agenda/conspiracy territory aren’t we?

19538 ▶▶▶ South Coast Worker, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 4, #148 of 1297 🔗

Apparently the BBC had one article stating that flu numbers were over 30k, but basically nothing. Please go to the ONS weekly breakdowns and check for yourself. People will not believe you when you tell them. They just won’t accept it.

18734 Tenchy, replying to Tenchy, 40, #149 of 1297 🔗

I see that odious woman in Scotland has taken a leaf out of Gruber’s book, speaking to the people as though they are children. Today she threatened the entire nation with further draconian restrictions if they don’t behave themselves. BTW, Scotland reported 18 new cases today (yes, 18, not 1800 or 18,000), and one death. So basically the bat flu has gone from Scotland.

18756 ▶▶ Mark H, replying to Tenchy, 23, #150 of 1297 🔗

In April she actually said “it’s time to have an adult conversation”. I thought, “wasn’t that what we should have been having all along?”

She’s a desperate woman right now, prepared to desperate things to protect her image. And while she may have hoards of adoring worshippers who have bought into her cult, deep down she must be petrified that the same forces that threw Salmond under the bus will do the same to her over the care home genocide she helped create.

18808 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Mark H, 37, #151 of 1297 🔗

And who is keeping her hair cut and coloured under lockdown, I wonder..? No one in the public arena seems to be having a problem getting their hair done…

20247 ▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Carrie, 1, #152 of 1297 🔗

I have noticed that.

18853 ▶▶▶ Guirme, replying to Mark H, 13, #153 of 1297 🔗

Actually it might be Salmond who throws her under the bus, which is probably one of the reasons she doesn’t want lockdown to end.

18864 ▶▶ Guirme, replying to Tenchy, 16, #154 of 1297 🔗

The Monday cases tend to be very low in Scotland because of the way the weekend figures are compiled so I would expect them to be higher tomorrow. However they will almost certainly be sufficiently low as to suggest that this virus is pretty much history in Scotland. Figures this low do suggest that Sturgeon is blatantly breaching human rights legislation as the massive restrictions on basic freedoms in Scotland are way beyond any proportionate response to the low level threat from the virus.

18975 ▶▶▶ Mark H, replying to Guirme, 28, #155 of 1297 🔗

Greater Glasgow has a population of around 1.8 million. The virus is so dangerous here that there are currently SEVEN people in ICU. Out of 1.8 million. Meanwhile all of the region’s hospital’s remained closed to breast, bowel and cervix cancer test, screenings and treatments and the £43 million SEC hospital conversion has been empty since its grand opening.

19007 ▶▶▶ EmbraFlaneur, replying to Guirme, 3, #156 of 1297 🔗

You’re spot on regarding the figures for deaths given on Sundays and Mondays but the figures for positive tests over the weekend do give some cause for optimism.

There were 36 positive tests over the past weekend (30-31 May) compared to 115 the previous weekend and 147 the weekend before that. Tracking even further back we get weekend figures of 232, 339, 470 and 630 (19-20 April).

The most recent figures are less than 6% of positive tests at their height.

18736 HawkAnalyst, replying to HawkAnalyst, #157 of 1297 🔗


Testing Is Key to Beating Coronavirus, Right? Japan Has Other Ideas

20202 ▶▶ TJN, replying to HawkAnalyst, 1, #158 of 1297 🔗

Another interpretation, an absolute anathema to those who wish to exploit this disease to indulge their innate desire to exert controls over their fellow human beings, is that covid-19 in Japan – and everywhere else, simply took its own course and did what it was going to do, regardless of governments and so-called scientists.

My guess is that, compared with many western countries, the Japanese already had large-scale immunity to this disease. I don’t see this possibility talked about much though. I wonder why not?

18737 Mike Smith, replying to Mike Smith, 26, #159 of 1297 🔗

“Super spreader” <definition> : A person who plays a major role during a pandemic by creating population immunity so that the vulnerable can then emerge safely into the world and resume their normal lives. Example: “Super spreaders stood ready early in 2020 to solve the coronavirus pandemic, but unfortunately the government took the alternative option of destroying the country instead.”

18760 ▶▶ Tenchy, replying to Mike Smith, 26, #160 of 1297 🔗

As someone commented somewhere, “Boris has found a wasps nest in the loft and his tactic for getting rid of it is to burn down the house”.

19041 ▶▶▶ Jonathan Castro, replying to Tenchy, 2, #161 of 1297 🔗

The version I heard was the spider in the kitchen!

18739 HawkAnalyst, replying to HawkAnalyst, 2, #162 of 1297 🔗

BBC News: Social distancing: A practical guide to how to socialise now


4. Food and cutleryIn terms of bringing your own cutlery, it’s difficult. Everyone through these sets of guidelines is going to have to determine how much risk they’re prepared to accept.
If you think you’ve had coronavirus and/or you’re low risk, meaning you’re young, you’re slim, you’re female – those are the main variables – your behaviour at a picnic is probably going to be much more relaxed with regards to things like sharing the potato salad and using other people’s cutlery. But of course you need to be doing everything you can to stop yourself being a carrier and making other people ill.
If you are a man who’s older and overweight and don’t think you’ve had the virus, I would say bring your own cutlery and bring your own coleslaw.

19742 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to HawkAnalyst, 2, #163 of 1297 🔗

What they didn’t say was, “If you’re an elderly, portly, black man, you might just wanna stay inside and eat the coleslaw on your own”……… Can’t be racist now can we

18759 Mark, replying to Mark, 2, #164 of 1297 🔗

OK bought a mug for my sister as a test. Will definitely come back for some more merch in due course. The option to have it delivered direct to someone else is one I think I might be making more use of.

18782 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to Mark, 9, #165 of 1297 🔗

I bought the tote bag and will enjoy parading it round Waitrose where they delight in treating their customers like cattle.

18775 Back To Normal, replying to Back To Normal, 17, #166 of 1297 🔗

Thanks to those who have already signed my petition end social distancing.
In case you missed this on yesterday’s page, here is the link again https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/320079

18802 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Back To Normal, 6, #167 of 1297 🔗

Signed it. Thanks for setting it up. If you haven’t already, suggest you could try to interest some of the more “followed” sceptics like Peter Hitchens, Toby Young, Simon Dolan to give this the publicity it deserves.

18817 ▶▶▶ Back To Normal, replying to Julian, 2, #168 of 1297 🔗

I’ve emailed Toby already so hopefully he will give it a mention. I don’t have email addresses for Peter and Simon. Not sure if they can be contacted directly somehow (maybe via twitter – sorry I don’t use it). If any other sceptics can contact Peter and Simon directly, please go ahead and let them know about the petition. Thanks.

18833 ▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Back To Normal, 1, #169 of 1297 🔗

I don’t have those email addresses, nor am I on Twitter. Hitchens can be written to at the Mail on Sunday. Dolan could probably be contacted via his company.

18859 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Back To Normal, 1, #170 of 1297 🔗

You might get hold of Simon at http://www.keepbritainfree.com

18942 ▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Back To Normal, 1, #171 of 1297 🔗

Hi Adam, really sorry I pre-empted your post about the petition … Peter Hitchens’ e-mail address is peter.hitchens@mailonsunday.co.uk . (I would send the link myself but I have already contacted him on several other issues so it may be better coming from you). Once again, apologies …

19141 ▶▶▶▶▶ Back To Normal, replying to kh1485, 1, #172 of 1297 🔗

Thanks kh1485. Sending email to Peter now. And no worries about your earlier post – the more publicity the better!

19165 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Back To Normal, 1, #173 of 1297 🔗

Thanks Adam. I’ve sent a letter to the Daily Telegraph to highlight the petition and I have just placed a physical notice on a ‘notice board’ in my town (remains to be seen whether it will be censored!).

18867 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Back To Normal, 1, #174 of 1297 🔗

Signed 🙂

19110 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Back To Normal, 2, #175 of 1297 🔗

Well done the current leading constituencies – Midlothian, Stockport, Kingston-upon-Hull, Anglesey, Bootle, Clwyd South, Bromsgroe, Henley, and Torbay.

19400 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to JohnB, 2, #176 of 1297 🔗

Leaders currently are Caithness & Sutherland, Anglesey, and Bromsgrove !

19755 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to JohnB, 1, #177 of 1297 🔗

Last time I checked it was Bury South, Kingston upon Hull North and Kessle, and Bromsgrove leading the way.

19757 ▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to JohnB, #178 of 1297 🔗

Grrr. Kingston upon Hull West and Kessle

20513 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to JohnB, 1, #179 of 1297 🔗

Bromsgrove, Bury South, and Banbury leading.

Followed by Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch, and Strathspey;
then Milton Keynes North, Rochford and Southend East, and Christchurch.

18800 A13, replying to A13, 14, #180 of 1297 🔗

“We must fight YouTube’s outrageous censoring of lockdown sceptics Social media forums cannot pretend to be impartial while meddling in our democracy”

18813 ▶▶ Mark, replying to A13, 15, #181 of 1297 🔗

Tech companies cannot pretend to be neutral forums and enjoy the benefits that brings while banning, hiding and undermining content and opinions they don’t like .”

Good to see this longstanding issue coming out front and centre, now the censorship is no longer just affecting dissidents with the standard taboo opinions that offend against traditional political correctness.

President Trump signed an Executive Order aimed at revising these exemptions and investigating allegations of bias and censorship .”

Once again Trump, for all his undoubted faults, right on the button here.

19739 ▶▶ Locked up in Leeds, replying to A13, 1, #182 of 1297 🔗

Not just YouTube, just tried too play some music on Apple Music to relieve the boredom. Got a message saying that #TheShowMustBePaused #BlackLivesMatter and unable to choose my own music!

18815 Tyneside Tigress, 18, #183 of 1297 🔗

I am always suspicious when public bodies change datasets, or the way they report data. Interestingly, gov.uk states:
‘From 1st June we will stop publishing a separate count of deaths in hospital as our daily count now provides a count of deaths in all settings’.
How convenient – not related to it being in double digits? If I am reading the spreadsheet for NHS England correctly, there were 13 hospital deaths yesterday. I know the data gets adjusted after a weekend, but bearing in mind the numbers in ICU is running at less that 9% of capacity, we are at levels last seen on 11/12 March. I will await the adjustments tomorrow.

18820 JohnB, #184 of 1297 🔗

Tune – has anyone suggested ‘Banana Republic’, by the Boomtown Rats ?

18831 AidanR, 11, #185 of 1297 🔗

We are not alone.

One of my favourite US podcasters, Tom Woods, has a new free eBook called “Your Facebook Friends Are Wrong About The Lockdown”.


It’s a US-centric read, but it’s well worth a look if you’ve an inquisitive mind.

If you’ve never heard of him but you’re a grown-up interested in the topic of more freedom and less enslavement to the government, he’s a good guy.

Tom is a History PhD, distinguished libertarian author and podcaster. It’s not tinfoil hat freeman on the land rubbish. He’s a godly, educated man and his podcasts are family friendly.

18834 Stephen McMurray, replying to Stephen McMurray, 29, #186 of 1297 🔗

Whilst the ludicrous anti-social distancing rules remain in place, the economy will never recover. If you are a small or medium business with limited space in your working environment it will only be possible to comply if you only allow a certain percentage of your workforce to attend. Whilst the government are paying for them to stay at home that’s fine but when the furlough scheme ends what company is going to pay for 30 or 40 percent to stay at home every day. They will have to be paid off and then you probably won’t have enough staff to function anyway.

The government must realise this. Are they deliberately trying to kill off small business so we will end up with just multinationals run by their rich elitist ‘friends’ who actually run the country behind the scenes? Is there any sign of the anti-social distancing 2 metre rule being scrapped anytime soon?

18857 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Stephen McMurray, 24, #187 of 1297 🔗

Goodness knows what is going through their heads. It may be better not to know – like those scifi films where people who can hear others’ thoughts are driven insane by it.

As I posted elsewhere, my dentist are increasing their charges. Every business that depends on a public presence will need to charge more, or go out of business. Only the upper middle class and above will be able to afford a lot of things that are now more accessible to most.

Public transport – just can’t see how it will work. Where are the journalists who should be asking these questions? Bloody shower. No-one is holding these nincompoops to account.

It doesn’t take a genius to work this stuff out – it’s bloody obvious.

18960 ▶▶▶ Nic, replying to Julian, 8, #188 of 1297 🔗

When people start loosing there jobs that is when all this crap will stop people have been shielded from the economic cost but that wont last for much longer not that I want anyone to loose their job by the way

19054 ▶▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Nic, 6, #189 of 1297 🔗

Job losses will lead to mortgage defaults and general debt delinquancy. It’s the main reason why the government have been so willing to fund the furlough scheme and equivalent for the self employed.

19401 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Nobody2020, 2, #190 of 1297 🔗

Then the government needs to drop the nonsensical distancing rules and get everyone back while they still have jobs.
I know I’m preaching to the converted here but I do wonder why the need to distance is still being promoted by official sources and the press. I can’t agree with Hitchens that it’s just to save face because they’ve made a monumental mistake.

20341 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Cheezilla, 1, #191 of 1297 🔗

Because the mobile phone system used for tracking and tracing requires a minimum separation distance of 6 ft if I have read the technical documents correctly, preferably 10 ft, between phones or it can get confused and give strange results.

19072 ▶▶▶▶ Old fred, replying to Nic, 12, #192 of 1297 🔗

I have said this as well. Attitudes will only change when folk start realising their jobs have gone. Banker guy in The Times a few days ago thought 3.5 million unemployed within a few months was optimistic. Apparently, worst unemployment rate in last 50 years has been 12% – until now, that is. If you add in numbers who are now furloughed, the figure is around 35% of UK workforce being supported by govt. How many of those furloughed will still have jobs in a few months remains to be seen.

19077 ▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Old fred, 5, #193 of 1297 🔗

I used these figures to do a highly unscientific sum in my head and I think unemployment is gonna peak at around 20%. And that’s me erring on the optimistic side.

19085 ▶▶▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Old fred, 8, #194 of 1297 🔗

But will people be able to break away from the belief that a virus was the cause and not government interventions?

19115 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Nobody2020, 9, #195 of 1297 🔗

Ges, I keep reading that weasel phrase ’caused by the virus’. None of this mayhem has been caused by the virus.

19361 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to annie, 2, #196 of 1297 🔗

People who believe in the “caused by the virus” mantra are basically saying there was no other option.

19560 ▶▶▶▶▶ ianric, replying to Old fred, 2, #197 of 1297 🔗

The purpose of the furlough scheme was to preserve jobs. If redundancies go ahead, this money will have been wasted and raises the question can the government ask for money back if employers make staff redundant.

If large numbers of people loose their jobs at the same time, this will place strain on the benefits system. Imagine having to claim universal credit which is unpleasant enough under normal circumstances when loads of other people are trying to claim it at the same time.

18868 ▶▶ ambwozere, replying to Stephen McMurray, 13, #198 of 1297 🔗

I’m still trying to work out how partner dancing will ever take place again unless the 2m role is removed.

My ballroom teachers have already stated that when they start back in July it will be “socially distanced” 2m apart and wearing masks. Yeugh.

Thankfully my latin teachers are as sceptical as me and we’ve already started lessons again outside as normal.

Even large businesses will struggle with the 2m rule.

18891 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to ambwozere, 13, #199 of 1297 🔗

Partner dancing will have to go underground, for a while. Like Christianity in China – meet in front rooms.

18932 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to ambwozere, 8, #200 of 1297 🔗

How are you supposed to do ballroom dancing with a partner at all, if you and your partner have to be 2 metres apart – no one’s arms are that long?

18974 ▶▶▶▶ ambwozere, replying to Carrie, 3, #201 of 1297 🔗

I’ve absolutely no idea and it’s one of the areas of the leisure industry that has been conveniently forgotten about by HMG.

Maybe broom handles might work though dance competitions could get interesting.

19407 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to ambwozere, 1, #202 of 1297 🔗

They might have to combine with a martial arts class.

19403 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Carrie, #203 of 1297 🔗

There’s a new business you could set up – arm extensions for ballroom dancers.

20691 ▶▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Carrie, #204 of 1297 🔗

The end of the Argentine Tango.

18990 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to ambwozere, 3, #205 of 1297 🔗

Fwiw, I recall there was a case of “superspreading” at a latin dance class in, iirc, Korea. I suppose dancing close for sustained contact is likely to spread it if it’s there to be spread. (Two of my daughters are latin-style dance teachers, which is why I noticed).

Mind, I’m not using that as justification for effectively banning proper dancing – if there’s no active epidemic spread then there’s no excuse whatsoever for imposing these kinds of measures anyway. It’s the usual complete absence of any sense of proportion and common sense.

19031 ▶▶▶ crimsonpirate, replying to ambwozere, 11, #206 of 1297 🔗

once the penny drops that Strictly Come Dancing isn’t coming back soon that might be the straw that breaks the camel’s back with public support for the lock down

19406 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to crimsonpirate, 1, #207 of 1297 🔗

We can live in hope. Something has to wake them up and hopefully it will be less painful than financial ruin.

18876 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Stephen McMurray, 13, #208 of 1297 🔗

Its not only SMEs that are at risk but also hospitality, tourism, arts and culture, entertainment, museums and heritage. You can’t do “social distancing” at a museum or a concert – limiting the number of people won’t make money and defeats the purpose of broadening access as well as the principle national collection belong to the people.

There’s also the 14 quarantine. Talk about bolting the stable after the horse has bolted.

18892 ▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to Stephen McMurray, #209 of 1297 🔗

The short answer is:


18916 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Stephen McMurray, 20, #210 of 1297 🔗

It does look suspiciously like the systematic destruction of the independent business sector.

19091 ▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to Cheezilla, 15, #211 of 1297 🔗

It looks suspiciously like t otalitarianism because it is t otalitarianism.

19028 ▶▶ ianric, replying to Stephen McMurray, 14, #212 of 1297 🔗

There are various theories as to purpose of the lockdown. A theory is to destroy small businesses so that big businesses have a monopoly and can buy the assets of bankrupt business. The lockdown is a perfect way of achieving this. Unlike big businesses small businesses don’t have the financial reserves to survive long periods without trading. Under lockdown regulations, a shop only selling clothes could not open but a supermarket can sell clothes as they sell food. An effective way of hitting small businesses is to stop them trading during their busiest periods. Many small businesses eg b & bs, tour operators depend on the summer tourist trade. A summer lockdown is a perfect way of killing tourist dependent businesses. A lockdown has a knock on effect on business allowed to operate. Taxi firms are a good example of this. If high streets have no shoppers due to closed shops, people being unable to use pubs or restaurants and fewer people travelling on trains and getting off at train stations, this takes trade away from taxi firms.

19033 ▶▶ Jonathan Castro, replying to Stephen McMurray, 19, #213 of 1297 🔗

I think we’re being run by psychopaths, basically.

19052 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Stephen McMurray, 10, #214 of 1297 🔗

I predict that they’ll reduce it in due course but only after dragging it out long enough for people to be begging for the torture to end.

Don’t forget that they have advice on the psychological dark arts to maximise the impact and thus influence desired responses for all their actions.

19108 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Nobody2020, 3, #215 of 1297 🔗

Yep, the SPI-B dudes should definitely be on our lists.

18839 Farinances, 23, #216 of 1297 🔗

Look at this amazingness!

Man raps STRAIGHT FIRE about Coronabollox!

No really I’m getting sick of it
You get in a car crash and die on impact
And still get covid on your death certificate
I could choke on a piece of steak fat
And suffocate to death on my fucking sofa
The coroner could look at his colleagues and be like
Hey watch this….

18844 Poppy, replying to Poppy, 75, #217 of 1297 🔗

It’s June, and we’re still in lockdown. During March, I honestly though this would be completely lifted by the middle/end of May at the very latest. Wuhan’s lockdown was around 2 months, so ours would be the same, right? All western democracies modelled their approach on China anyway with their lockdowns. Back in early April the idea of being under virtual house arrest until June just seemed totally unbearable – but here we are. It feels like it’s never ending and it’s absolutely f***ing horrendous.

I’m so angry and worked up all the time, it’s starting to affect my physical health, giving me massive headaches and nausea, as well as breathlessness and chest pains. I know that sounds totally ridiculous and a lot of people would just advise me to not get so worked up because ‘there’s nothing we can do’ – but that’s why I’m so furious, because there’s nothing I CAN do. I am an unemployed 21 year old (desperately looking and applying for jobs but to no avail), whose partner is 100 miles away, watching my life and everything that made it worth living get tossed in the bin, and I am getting very bored of every day being exactly the same. Being young, a housebound life with my parents doesn’t feel natural at all. It’s horrific. There is only so much with which you can amuse yourself with when most things are closed for almost three months and counting. I am a hard worker who likes being productive and who goes stir crazy sitting at home for months on end. I am a voracious reader, a cyclist and an artist in my free time but three months of the same thing and limited social interaction outside the household is taking the piss and we all know it. It’s not a meaningful life, which is why it drives me up the WALL when sanctimonious commenters on the BBC and Guardian say how ‘lovely’ it is to live ‘a simpler life at a slower pace’. Disingenuous. I know I should be grateful for what I do have, and I am, but I can’t help thinking of Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs throughout all this – the entire pyramid.

I think it was the ‘Big Brother sex law’ that really set me off today. Even if it is unenforceable, it’s just the principle of it existing at all which is so revoltingly repellent. The fact that some public servant, in what is meant to be a western democracy, sat down and drafted the words forbidding private citizens to have human contact on private property is astonishing. It’s the precedent it sets, and it is deeply, deeply frightening. I sincerely hope that it is just our government clowns posturing, desperately trying to regain control of a situation they have completely failed to manage.

I feel like no one is really listening. I have all you wonderful people on this site, and Toby’s valiant efforts to put it all together, and all the fantastically brilliant scientists and commentators who have the balls to speak out against this deeply corrosive lunacy, but it’s not enough. We have to remember that we are all still a minority, and the general public dances to the tune of the MSM, which is very different. It is frustrating because the data is there but it is getting ignored. I feel like I’m stuck in one of those nightmares where I try to scream but no sound comes out. I really wish there was some way of mobilising my anger, besides venting on here, signing petitions, writing to MPs, etc. I just really wish I could DO something significant to change things, but I don’t know what. Toby, you really need to set up that political party!

The only grain of hope is that the truth is objective and cannot be changed, and the truth always comes out in the end.

18854 ▶▶ ambwozere, replying to Poppy, 11, #218 of 1297 🔗

Totally get where you’re coming from Poppy and I’m very very lucky and still working but I have friends who as dance teachers literally lost their jobs overnight.

What scares me is that whilst they’re obviously not happy about having no work they don’t seem interested in speaking out against the narrative.

Personally I hate the lack of freedom and so will try to figjt even if the only way is writing to my MP.

I think we all have to keep going forward and just keep pushing for the normal way of life.

18862 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Poppy, 12, #219 of 1297 🔗

It will end, or at least improve sufficiently that you can feel happier. It’s moving in the right direction. Europe is paving the way.

And you have good sense. No-one can ever take that away from you.

18901 ▶▶ Beefy, replying to Poppy, 11, #220 of 1297 🔗

I feel for you, I have moments when I feel the same. But the truth will come out, even if it’s slower that we would like. And you have to look at people’s behaviour. So many people are fucking off the rules, it’s ridiculous. It’s all falling apart.

18936 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Poppy, 13, #221 of 1297 🔗

Poppy, I can understand why you feel like exploding with frustration.
They said we’d to lockdown to “flatten the sombrero”. Well it’s been almost as flat as a pancake for weeks, while they have systematically taken a steamroller to the economy and our social structures.
Obviously there’s no excuse now other than some weirdly sinister agenda that you’d have to be a psychopath yourself to understand.

My best friend phoned this morning and arranged to come over tomorrow so we can hang out and have a proper catchup – no sex involved. I haven’t seen her since March and it’s bad enough that we won’t be able to hang out in our favourite little cafe.
Then I read about the new legal tweak. Unbelievable!
Needless to say “I know nothing about the new rule.” 😉

18945 ▶▶ Nic, replying to Poppy, 8, #222 of 1297 🔗

I feel exactly the same you are not the only one iv started taking antidepressants
For the first time in my life and I’m 55 but things will improve I’m sure of that .

18955 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Poppy, 12, #223 of 1297 🔗

I can relate and I wish I could recommend your comment more than once. What really angers me is the deafening silence from the leading names in my sector – museums and heritage. I don’t think they really realise how this lockdown and the social distancing will be the death of our sector or if they do they’re simply burying their heads in the sand and think it will all be OK.

We can only carry on what we’re doing and I believe that the truth will set us free. I also think the tide is turning and if more and more people continue to push back then we can still salvage what’s left of our country.

19032 ▶▶▶ Jonathan Castro, replying to Bart Simpson, 12, #224 of 1297 🔗

I work in the arts sector, and basically it’s just running on reserves now, if it has any left. The office will probably go. The whole thing is madness.

19135 ▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Jonathan Castro, 4, #225 of 1297 🔗

We are as well. My workplace has been lucky that it was able to capitalise on the last 8 years where they have put up successful exhibitions and events hence why they have a war chest which is being used to pay us. What is worrying is how we will replenish that if the government insist on this social distancing nightmare. And even with that gone, people will tighten their belts due to the looming recession which means we won’t get as many visitors as during the good days.

19139 ▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Bart Simpson, 13, #226 of 1297 🔗

I agree. What troubles me most in all this is that people just seem to think that we will awake sleeping beauty-like from all this and just resume as normal. I don’t think the good weather is helping actually – it is just aiding the fool’s paradise element in all of this. I had one customer who came into my business (takings 87% down, thanks Boris) asking if I had enjoyed my “holiday”. I tell you, it took every last bit of my reserves of goodwill – and they are pretty low right now – not to tell him to eff off.

19192 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to kh1485, 6, #227 of 1297 🔗

Agree with you, the furlough scheme together with the good weather is lulling people into a false sense of security and I seriously doubt that many people are prepared for the fallout once this is all over.

I’m technically on annual leave which is pointless and I’m angry that I have wasted time being cooped up in my own home and in a not so good neighbourhood which makes going out even more depressing than it is. That’s why I have not bothered to request a meeting with my line manager, as much as she is good and will listen I do not want to say anything that I will regret as I know that the situation is beyond her control.

19089 ▶▶▶ Morris_Day, replying to Bart Simpson, 13, #228 of 1297 🔗

I am sure the board room tables will be feeling very much like you are, they are simply too scared of publicly say that. Imagine a museum openly saying this is bollocks – they’d be screwed by the media. It’s why we are in this mess for the foreseeable. The overwhelming and growing evidence just doesn’t matter.

I was having back and forth with someone on Facebook today he replied ‘how does lockdown cost lives’, when I provided some links to estimates of cancer deaths etc he simply didn’t reply. That is usual. Fact is ignored and fear is celebrated.

19138 ▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Morris_Day, 6, #229 of 1297 🔗

My husband said the same thing – TPTB in the museums and heritage sector think this is all bollocks but they’re cowed into silence because of the media mob. Its the same with orchestras and other cultural institutions.

And you’re right about feelings trumping facts. Try to argue that the lockdown and social distancing has been bad for the economy and society, you’ll be hit back with banal slogans like “people before profit”

19029 ▶▶ Jonathan Castro, replying to Poppy, 14, #230 of 1297 🔗

I don’t have any problem with having a friend round to my house, even if they have to park around the back. What’s dispiriting is that nobody seems to want to flout the rules.

20200 ▶▶▶ Sue D, replying to Jonathan Castro, 2, #231 of 1297 🔗

Agree. I’m really disappointed with my friends attitudes but am lucky that two friends are ignoring the rules and I’ll be visiting one at her home tomorrow.
The odd thing is, it is the three of us who are most at risk. One is 80, one is 70, pre-diabetic and has Stage 3 kidney disease while I have HBP and an autoimmune condition, Limited Systemic Scleroderma.
My other friends who are terrified by the disease are healthy and range in age from 40 to 60. I can’t even talk to them about it anymore for fear of saying something and destroying good relationships.

19044 ▶▶ ianric, replying to Poppy, 20, #232 of 1297 🔗

I understand how poppy feels. It feels that the lockdown is a brutal collective punishment. When you examine the lockdown it is a form of mental torture. Everything is taken away from you. Many people can’t run their business and many are not allowed to work if their business is not allowed to operate. Initially you couldn’t meet friends or relatives outside your household and now you can only meet them outdoors. It is impossible for single people to form new relationships. Leisure activities such as pubs, restaurants, cinemas, theatres, nightclubs and travelling have been taken away from us.

19097 ▶▶▶ Gossamer, replying to ianric, 16, #233 of 1297 🔗

And yet so many don’t care. It amazes me how (and I know this from my working environment) people talk at great length about the mental harm caused by “microaggressions” – yet willingly submit to their lives being cancelled for an indefinite period.

19606 ▶▶▶▶ Anthony McManus, replying to Gossamer, 1, #234 of 1297 🔗

Those will be the people who read Susan Cain and obsess over their oppressed status as an introvert in a world of extroverts. They’ll be thinking and loving the supposed fact that their time has come.

19061 ▶▶ guy153, replying to Poppy, 13, #235 of 1297 🔗

You’re absolutely right to be outraged by it. The MSM are starting to shift gears however with a lot of anti-lockdown opinion appearing in the Telegraph.

It’s all starting to look less planned now and like the government are just flailing around perhaps genuinely worried about a second wave.

But there won’t be a second wave and this will become more and more obvious as other countries lift their lockdowns. Even our pathetic and incompetent government will eventually tag along, copying every move as it happens in the rest of the western Europe that they claim to despise so much.

19132 ▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to guy153, 9, #236 of 1297 🔗

“…there won’t be a second wave”.

A second wave can easily be engineered. Continual ramping up of testing and tweaking of the rules for registering deaths can see to that.

As was observed a couple of weeks ago, the emphasis is now changing from deaths to ‘infections’ or ‘cases’, and even if the newly-discovered infections are among the young and healthy resulting in no symptoms, then to an unthinking person it looks like “Second wave. Told you so….”

Ironically, the government seems desperate for this to happen. Even though it makes them look incompetent to the unthinking person, they must have worked out that it’s better to look incompetent in the face of a disastrous epidemic than to have created a catastrophe from a mild cold virus (for the vast majority of people).

19140 ▶▶▶▶ Simon Dutton, replying to Barney McGrew, 6, #237 of 1297 🔗

A second wave can easily be engineered.

The bastards have already been padding the figures (“with” vs “from”). When the untreated cancer, etc. patients start dying, I suspect that a lot of those will be deemed to have died “with”. There’s your second wave, neat as could be.

19409 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Barney McGrew, 2, #238 of 1297 🔗

Unfortunately, unthinking people are in the majority and are very easily led.

19062 ▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Poppy, 14, #239 of 1297 🔗

Yeah, it’s tough Poppy, particularly for someone of your age. Try to see what might be positive. I’ve taken to a lot of meditation, but I’m used to solitude as I’ve worked for myself on my own most of my life. But there’s still got to be something there for you. I’m minded of the story of the two children, one stuck in a room stuffed to the rafters with gorgeous toys and another stuck in a room full of horseshit. The first kid sat and did nothing and cried and when asked why said ‘With all these beautiful toys I’m bound to break one so don’t want to play with any of them.’ The second kid was happily shovelling horse dung all over the place. When asked why he/she said ‘With all this shit there’s bound to be a pony in here somewhere.’

19075 ▶▶ RDawg, replying to Poppy, 15, #240 of 1297 🔗

Hi Poppy, I am hearing you and I totally appreciate your anger and all the physical pains you describe. It’s your body’s response to a constant surge of adrenaline, which manifests itself in physical symptoms.

For the sake of your sanity, I really advise doing some form of intensive aerobic exercise every day. For me, I go running every other day. My best mate is letting me use his weights at his physio clinic in the evenings.

Really important you do try and take a break from thinking about this mad situation, otherwise it will eat you up and consume you. The frustration has battered me my mental health, and I realised I had to come off all social media and avoid watching/reading the news. You‘ll feel so much better for it.

19107 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to RDawg, #241 of 1297 🔗

And later on, when you feel ready, you need to forgive yourself for going onto social media in the first place. 🙂

19148 ▶▶▶ Simon Dutton, replying to RDawg, 14, #242 of 1297 🔗

Excellent advice, if I may say so. I suggest also getting out into the natural world if possible. Exposure to green vegetation (especially trees) has been shown to be good for the psyche; and when you see the birds and bees going about their daily lives unmasked, ungloved, and without a whiff of sanitiser, you are reminded of and reassured by a reality that has nothing to do with Downing Street.

Moreover: observe any living thing, or any natural process, and you can hardly fail to be impressed by how wonderful it is compared with the clumsy, vainglorious and ignorant achievements of men.

An excerpt from a novel:

Then one day last week, walking with her in the countryside near her house, he had been struck by the fact that the natural world was beautiful. Astonishing as it seemed, this had simply never occurred to him before. Nor had he given any thought to how intricate and right it all was. None of the colours clashed, however unexpectedly they were aligned; everything was proportionate and fitted together at every scale from the atomic to the galactic. It did not matter whether or not science could establish the presence of a guiding spirit: you could believe in it anyway, because the evidence was all around you. The belief, even if deluded, simplified the world and made you feel more comfortable. And if its creator really did exist, would it not be an act of gross ingratitude to refuse this gift of comfort, let alone his primacy?

It is unfashionable to believe in God; the godless have made it so. The very same people are behind this attempt to enslave us. I am not suggesting that anyone should become a born-again, or a fanatic, or an adherent of any particular faith. What I do suggest is the possibility that there may be a higher authority than Alexander Johnson or Bill Gates to whom they will in time be answerable.

So get out on your bike, Poppy, pedal hard to get an endorphin rush, and take a moment to understand how wonderful it is that you are thus rewarded by your endocrine system; and let this observation lead you to others that are equally healthy and grounding and independent of the diktats of psychopaths who strive for temporal power.

19767 ▶▶▶▶ Evelyn, replying to Simon Dutton, 4, #243 of 1297 🔗

What a wise and lovely post.

19124 ▶▶ annie, replying to Poppy, 10, #244 of 1297 🔗

Dear Poppy, you are terrific, but you need a rest from MSM, and even from us.
Take a complete day iff, avoid hotbeds of Covhysteria, and think cheerful.
Personally I find that listening to Jonathan Cecil reading Jeeves stories on Audible is one good tonic. I laugh out loud and feel much better. But there are a thousand other remedies.

The whole stupid shebang will stop pretty soon anyway, whatever the bedwetting media say.

19130 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Poppy, 9, #245 of 1297 🔗

“The fact that some public servant, in what is meant to be a western democracy, sat down and drafted the words…”

I was thinking exactly this as I read some of the new laws yesterday. The most annoying, terrifying aspect is that they had been put together without debate or accountability, by anonymous people. They talk about the “emergency period” but we know that they have arbitrary powers to decide when – or if – that ends, too.

Sometimes it really does feel to me that our lives are pretty much over. But then I also try to remind myself that billions of people would swap with me in a heartbeat if they could. The main problem is the not knowing when, or if, it will end.

You might have thought that any government would balance the negatives with hope, positivity, inspiration, but not our lot. It all feeds the suspicion that they are covering up for their catastrophic mistake by dragging this out for as long as possible to make it look as bad as possible. They are also feeding the media the headlines to maintain the charade. I really, truly despise the lot of them.

19136 ▶▶ TJN, replying to Poppy, 8, #246 of 1297 🔗

Poppy – just deliberately break the rules. It will make you feel better. Worked for me! From Day One.

And look for the ludicrous, the stupid, the insane. And have a good laugh about it. There’s a plethora of material all around us.

And yes, the truth will come out in the end. It already is. There will be no hiding place for the charlatans who have done this.

19147 ▶▶ BTLnewbie, replying to Poppy, 6, #247 of 1297 🔗

Exercise releases the feeling of helplessness; you must take some time, outside, away from this madness each day.

Also, I think the tide is turning rapidly. The Below the Line comments on the BBC website yesterday (under a piece about Hancock’s gov’t presentation) were almost all negative.

19369 ▶▶ Barnabas, replying to Poppy, 12, #248 of 1297 🔗

Poppy, I really feel for you as I am feeling just as frustrated. Your posts on this site have been brilliant. You are obviously an intelligent person with a very good grasp of ridiculous situation that we are experiencing.
The announcements from this government are becoming increasing more ridiculous. Clearly, they are so totally incompetent, arrogant, disconnected from reality (close to psychopathic) yet realising that they have massively screwed up. They are perpetuating this disproportionate lockdown and removal of our civil liberties to give the pretence that what they did or did not do earlier was actually justified.
I am self employed professional contractor. I have worked in 6 different countries often working in conditions that civil servants and local government employees would never in their wildest nightmares accept. e.g. 12 hours a day, 6 days a week for 18 months with only 15 days off. Or being away from my loved ones for months at a time. Why? Because I have always been prepared to work hard and make sacrifices to provide the best that I can for my family.
At the start of the year the work in my sector dropped off due to changes to UK tax law for contractors. Then along came C19 and the lockdown and my work has not resumed and I am now into my 6 month of being out of work. I hold this government totally to blame for the decline of the economy which has directly impacted on my livelihood.
I wrote to my MP at the end of April after Dominic Raab announced that the LD would continue for a further 3 weeks. I stressed to him then that business needs to see an end to the lockdown ASAP. The reply I received from my MP was the standard Conservative party line about achieving the 5 points etc. He did nothing to address my concerns about the inevitable rise in unemployment that the country would be experiencing as a result of the lockdown.
Here we are now in June and all we get from them are the most ridiculous guidelines to make workplaces “covid 19 safe” (total bullshit) and stupid rules on who can enter our gardens and who we cannot have sex with (simply evil totalitarian thinking). All this is doing is reinforcing the fear in the unquestioning members of the population that are unable to think for themselves.
BTW. We had a family round at the weekend and ignored the stupid rules on what we can do on our own property.
We have to keep supporting Toby and this brilliant web page so that we can continue to exchange our views and information that we have discovered with like-minded individuals.

19424 ▶▶ FistfulOfDollars, replying to Poppy, 14, #249 of 1297 🔗

I’m really sorry you’re feeling like this. You’re right, it’s not easy and it’s not fair, but you’re made to feel like a whiner if you voice that. Especially by those pro-lockdown sat at home on their furlough money.

I’m 30, with a mortgage to pay, not eligible for any government support because I don’t have 3 years of accounts, not eligible for other benefits, and can’t work in lockdown because of the type of job I have. I haven’t had a penny come in since early March. I’m tearing through my savings – that I’ve lived frugally for years to accumulate – to pay the bills, and the amount of concern or support from “friends” is non-existent. Most of them are teachers, and they’re quite happy basking in the sun all day drinking wine getting paid a full time wage. They drone on about the inevitable second wave and how deadly the virus is.

At the end of the day, this whole episode has shown me that people believe what they want to believe, to justify whatever benefits them. I’ve spoken to many, many people about this, and there’s a staggering divide in opinion on how deadly the virus is depending on how much money they’re getting paid to sit at home.

19485 ▶▶ Sylvie, replying to Poppy, -10, #250 of 1297 🔗

My father was captured at the fall of Singapore and spent his 23rd birthday in a godown on the docks wondering what would happen next. It was 3+ years up and down the jungle camps along the Death Railway. Get a grip.

19839 ▶▶▶ RDawg, replying to Sylvie, 6, #251 of 1297 🔗

Unnecessary and unhelpful Bruno. If you have nothing nice to say, don’t say it at all.

19944 ▶▶▶▶ Barnabas, replying to RDawg, 4, #252 of 1297 🔗


19491 ▶▶ annie, replying to Poppy, 7, #253 of 1297 🔗

Do you really think anyone is going to obey this diktat? Nothing in human history has ever been allowed to get in the way of copulation. Nor will this.
But the thought of two Covizombies trying to do it while wearing face masks does maje me goggle slightly.

20041 ▶▶ fiery, replying to Poppy, 1, #254 of 1297 🔗

Hello Poppy. First of all I applaud your well thought out post. As someone much older I feel you’re pain and sense of despair of this utter risk averse idiocy which has been inflicted on us. The important thing is not to become consumed by it. I’ve probably broken most of the rules simply because I’m not going to waste the last few remaining healthy years of my life by sitting at home wrapped in cotton wool. I had planned to climb Snowdon and Ben Nevis this year and am furious this is unlikely to happen. I’m still going to work in a front line service and don’t know anyone who has contacted Corvid -19. I would urge you to ignore the nay sayers, get on with you’re life as much as you can and don’t download the ridiculous NHS tracing app.

20122 ▶▶ Shep, replying to Poppy, 1, #255 of 1297 🔗

I understand why young people want to smash everything and riot, if I was 20 I would be doing it too.

18866 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Bart Simpson, 22, #257 of 1297 🔗

Good article. I had not realised that Priti Patel had said that ‘Social distancing is here to stay’…. for how long is she thinking, I wonder? As one commenter wrote under the article, as yet no supermarket has yet had to shut due to vast numbers of their staff being infected, and they work in close contact with large numbers of people, day after day…

18888 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Carrie, 12, #258 of 1297 🔗

Yes, she said that ages ago: https://www.itv.com/goodmorningbritain/articles/social-distancing-is-here-to-stay-says-home-secretary-priti-patel
It’s probably wrong to say she is evil, but the idea is evil

18944 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Julian, 16, #259 of 1297 🔗

She is proving to be a great disappointment – look at the policing over the weekend. Black lives Matter – no social distancing, no real policing. Protest against lockdown – heavy police presence and intervention. And why are Brits under curfew and restrictions, and visitors to the country quarantined, when every day boatloads of people come in on dinghies and are free to move about as they wish..?

19295 ▶▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Carrie, 3, #260 of 1297 🔗

A very great disappointment. I emailed my MP about the double standards to which you refer.

18963 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Carrie, 10, #261 of 1297 🔗

Well she will have to do a U turn when the crime rate goes up as more and more people lose their jobs or become bankrupt.

19163 ▶▶▶▶ paulito, replying to Bart Simpson, 5, #262 of 1297 🔗

Socially distanced rioting will indeed be an interesting development. The corona panic will be forgotten when people realise they won’t be able to feed their families.

19195 ▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to paulito, 3, #263 of 1297 🔗

Exactly. When people can no longer put food on the table and keep the roof over their heads, things can turn nasty indeed. The State ignores this at their own peril.

19412 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Bart Simpson, #264 of 1297 🔗

20,000 troops …..

20124 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Shep, replying to Cheezilla, 1, #265 of 1297 🔗

50million+ pissed off uk citizens.

19067 ▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Carrie, 7, #266 of 1297 🔗

It can stay for her as long as she wants, not for me though. People can have hugs a plenty from me. Take that Patel! (no not a hug for you, you devious *$£$**)

18873 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Bart Simpson, 7, #267 of 1297 🔗

Yes, it’s a good sign, though he concedes 1 metre, sort of, which ultimately needs to be consigned to the dustbin too.

I read a couple of the comments, one of the first claimed a mortality rate of 2%. Some people shouldn’t be allowed out of the house without a responsible adult.

18966 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Julian, 9, #268 of 1297 🔗

1 metre is a good transition before its abolished. I find it odd that while the WHO recommends 1 metre and many other countries have it, we have 2 metres which is bonkers.

The explanation they gave was simply patronising and offensive.

18878 ▶▶ Tenchy, replying to Bart Simpson, 9, #269 of 1297 🔗

Lamont mentions that Priti Patel stated that social distancin[g] could be here to stay. Have I passed through a wormhole into a parallel universe?

19117 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Tenchy, 5, #270 of 1297 🔗

Is Patel here to stay?
What’s the betting?

18953 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Bart Simpson, 12, #271 of 1297 🔗

In employment terms [the hospitality industry] is bigger than the financial services industry or the automotive, aerospace and pharmaceutical industries combined.

Wow, yet the government is doggedly determined to destroy it?!

18981 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Cheezilla, 8, #272 of 1297 🔗

Exactly. The mind boggles – if the hospitality industry is destroyed, it would definitely sink London for sure.

18849 Guirme, replying to Guirme, 24, #273 of 1297 🔗

Sturgeon is an authoritarian control freak. However she is not the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom but nevertheless seems to be threatening laws which surely go beyond her powers under the devolution settlement. Health is in her remit but her approach goes way beyond responsibility for the NHS in Scotland. Surely Johnson ought to be reining her in and making clear the limits to her powers. Unfortunately Johnson seems to have become a singularly unimpressive PM with little concept that his role covers all of the UK. The police in Scotland, Sturgeon’s stasi, have been turned into a centralised state police all too ready to do her bidding. I find it all deeply depressing.

18885 ▶▶ John P, replying to Guirme, 4, #274 of 1297 🔗

How is this poor showing by Ms Sturgeon going to impact the chances of Scotland gaining political independence from the rest of the UK?

18973 ▶▶▶ Guirme, replying to John P, 10, #275 of 1297 🔗

I think she has made a dismal showing as do my friends but it is very difficult to know whether the country is waking up to how much of a clueless tyrant she is. There is currently no effective opposition in Scotland while she gets her daily show on television. However she has been very much “bought and sold for English gold” as her Government could not afford the furlough. It would be interesting to see her try to make the economic case for independence now as she daily destroys what is left of our economy. Personally I doubt if she will last more than a few months after lockdown ends as troubles will rapidly escalate out of control for her – economic destruction, Nike coronavirus cover up, care home scandal, Alex Salmond, etc.

18984 ▶▶▶ Mark H, replying to John P, 8, #276 of 1297 🔗

By her decision to destroy Scotland’s financial and economic independence while the indie golden goose of oil and gas lies gasping for air in the corner? She’s got no hope. The Scottish finance minister is bleating about furlough ending, I assume because the SNP’s plan is to keep Scotland locked up for as long as possible. Sturgeon says it’s a concern and she’s looking for Scotland to be able to borrow more money. Keyword being “borrow”. It’ll need to be paid back.

I’ve said it before, but a devolved Scotland has less freedom than England.

18865 Tyneside Tigress, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 21, #277 of 1297 🔗

Friends, especially in Scotland, this is a must-read from the highly respected Hugh Pennington:


Professor Pennington gave evidence to the Scottish Parliament to say he was sceptical about a second wave, and he was criticised by Ms Sturgeon. In a very clever way, he then points out that he started his virological career under the tutelage of the discoverer of human coronaviruses.

18948 ▶▶ DJ Dod, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 10, #278 of 1297 🔗

Truly, Saint Nicola’s talents know no bounds. The gullible might have given credence to the opinion of a man widely regarded as the leading scientist in Scotland. Thank goodness the Dear Leader was on hand to save us from this reckless evidence-based optimism…

18985 ▶▶▶ Mark H, replying to DJ Dod, 2, #279 of 1297 🔗

Hold aloft her judgements. Praise on high her guidance. All fall before the thrown of her Stay at Home podium.

19073 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 3, #280 of 1297 🔗

He does say at the end that we should be striving to eradicate the virus which to some people (NS for example or those advising her) could be reason to maintain a lockdown as long as needed to achieve this.

19419 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Nobody2020, #281 of 1297 🔗

I thought that could be misconstrued – or it was a cunning bit of misquoting by the reporter.

18879 Richard Lawson, 6, #282 of 1297 🔗

I’m looking forward to hearing more about the new ‘freedom’ party Toby.

There is ample room to to frighten the two main political party’s with a ‘Brexit Party‘ style of approach and change the political narrative.

I believe it would be wise to choose candidates that have had some success in life, whether it be in business, finance, teaching, union representative, supermarket manager or whatever. Maybe a minimum age of 50 or so should be considered too as this would mean they could offer constituents a real alternative to the PPE graduates who dominate politics these days. I strongly believe many of the political problems of today are caused by MP’s who have had no proper job in life since leaving university other that politics. This means they are totally removed from the real world problems and it’s one of the reasons most MP’s misread the Brexit mood so badly last year.

Thank you for giving me, and I know many other people (when they eventually hear about it) some hope.

18912 arfurmo, replying to arfurmo, 1, #283 of 1297 🔗
18918 ▶▶ John P, replying to arfurmo, 1, #284 of 1297 🔗

I sent the WHO’s recommendations to my MP several weeks ago.

His loyal “man-friday” replied to say that Mr XXXX was not a member of the government and declined to comment.

(Hence my outraged e-mail of last week that I reproduced here a few days ago).

18952 BobUSA, 22, #286 of 1297 🔗

Like many, I was shocked to learn about the number of deaths caused in the US by the 2017/18 flu. I lived in NYC at the time and though I recall getting my annual flu shot (I’m in my 70s) I don’t recall anything else about that awful visitation of just 2-3 years ago. I don’t think I even had the sniffles during that flu season. And yet many thousands died–and many children. But not to worry about the disparity of media coverage any longer. From now on, every flu season will be covered with the same fears and alarms. CNN will have a minute-by-minute countdown display of the mounting cases and fatalities. Every seasonal flu starting this year will be given a name–as hurricanes are–and we will hear constantly that Flu Harold or Flu Katrina is deadlier than COVID-19 and suddenly according to WHO seasonal flu can be far worse than a pandemic.
My humble prediction is that the Coronavirus will prove to be merely the dress rehearsal for the next stages of the media’s daily Theatre of Fear.

19026 crimsonpirate, replying to crimsonpirate, 9, #287 of 1297 🔗

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52876999 I wonder how many people realised when the lock down was imposed that cancer treatment as well as other treatments would be suspended

19078 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to crimsonpirate, 2, #288 of 1297 🔗

My initial estimate would be at least 2M people.

19100 ▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to crimsonpirate, 3, #289 of 1297 🔗

All just doing their bit to protect the NHS, I’m sure they will understand how important that is!

19034 Nobody2020, replying to Nobody2020, 3, #290 of 1297 🔗

It’s interesting to note that Sky News are running a series of programmes entitled “After the Pandemic Our New World”.

Seems as if they’re saying the pandemic is as good as over.

19189 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Nobody2020, #291 of 1297 🔗

Well, our New World is!

19043 Biker, replying to Biker, 19, #292 of 1297 🔗

The collective wellbeing of Scotland would be vastly improved if the barren Sturgeon just fucked off.

19118 ▶▶ annie, replying to Biker, 2, #293 of 1297 🔗

Pity she’s barren.The roe of the sturgeon is said to be delicious.

19188 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to annie, 1, #294 of 1297 🔗

In her case, the Japanese Puffer Fish would probably be a closer match!

19045 Tony Rattray, replying to Tony Rattray, 4, #295 of 1297 🔗

In reflection on the current troubles in America, the William Burroughs “ A Thanksgiving Prayer ” comes to mind for our current “Covid-19 Crisis”


Coronavirus Prayer

For King John of England,

In hope he is still listening in.

Thanks for weeks of never-ending bbqs, destined to be shit out through feeble british guts

Thanks for a lost spring of memories never to be recaptured

Thanks for nightingale hospitals providing little filled beds

Thanks for vast public spending, leaving the future economy to rot

Thanks for fines for meeting with friends

Thanks for STAY AT HOME, PROTECT THE NHS, SAVE LIVES to vulgarly save the face of the nhs whilst leaving care homes to wither

Thanks for epidemiologist s feeding their models of doom, for sage members with their mean, pinched, bitter public health advice

Thanks for “two metres apart” posters

Thanks for a laboratory or human stimulated virus (China)

Thanks for the Coronavirus Act and all its dictates

Thanks for a country where nobody is allowed to mind his own business

Thanks for a nation of finks


Thanks for all the memories of the last 10 weeks… all right, let’s see your masks and gloves…

Social media always was a headache and a bore.

Dear Boris, thanks for the last and greatest betrayal of the last and greatest of British dreams (Magna Carta)

19106 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Tony Rattray, 1, #296 of 1297 🔗

Meh. The Declaration of Rights came after Magna Carta, I believe. And was far greater.

19119 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to JohnB, 4, #297 of 1297 🔗

Wasn’t British. Was specifically anti-British.
Never mind. The point is that people in this country have striven, however imperfectly, for a thousand years to create a system of rights, only to have it swept away literally overnight.

19299 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to annie, 1, #298 of 1297 🔗

We nursed the pinion for the Yanks, Annie. 🙂

1688 Declaration of Rights.
1689 Bill of Rights.

Worth minding about, and definitely worth a read !

The original point was incorrect is claiming the Magna Carta was the latest and greatest, that’s all.

19488 ▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to JohnB, #299 of 1297 🔗

I stand corrected!

19753 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to annie, 1, #300 of 1297 🔗

No problem Annie. 🙂

You wouldn’t believe the grief I had with the kids’ secondary school history department, who were ignorant of the existence and the importance of the Glorious Revolution.

19487 ▶▶ annie, replying to Tony Rattray, 5, #301 of 1297 🔗

And thank you, dear NHS, for neglecting sufferers from every condition except one, and for lying about the deaths of those allegedly suffering from that one disease.

19046 crimsonpirate, replying to crimsonpirate, 13, #302 of 1297 🔗

Had to laugh at this one- whenever MSM interviews anyone from the retail sector about re opening the PR person is always at pains to emphasise the lengths they were going to ensure social distancing, hygiene etc. Today they interviewed someone from a car showroom who went through a whole list of precautions. It went well until he mentioned that if someone wanted to take a car for a test drive, they would have to drive the car alone. Good luck with that!

19104 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to crimsonpirate, 4, #303 of 1297 🔗

I’ve always wanted to ‘test drive’ a Ferrari … 🙂

19048 guy153, replying to guy153, 8, #304 of 1297 🔗

Is this any actual evidence for this myth of the Asymptomatic Superspreader? Several studies have shown that children (usually asymptomatic) struggle to spread SARS2. I would have thought asymptomatic adults would be similar, because they aren’t coughing and sneezing and generally “shedding”. This seems a likely candidate for why R0, and therefore prevalence is low, and for why the epidemics all follow Gompertz curves.

19053 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to guy153, 12, #305 of 1297 🔗

Again I’ve flipped on this. I thought before that a shit tonne of aysmptos were out and about spreading away.
However, now I think it’s basically just nocoso…. still can’t type that word. You need viral load to get it. So the chances of aysmptos giving it to anyone, given that they have no symptoms and are therefore not ‘shedding’ much virus, are slim.
If primary spread in the community is within households this also holds up. The only people aysmptos (and symptos, for that matter) spend enough time with to shed significant viral load on to are the people they live with, if anyone at all.
So….. All this social distancing crap is just that – crap. All this touching of surfaces crap is just that- crap. You could probably only get it off a surface if you literally licked that surface inmdiately after someone directly sneezed on it. Likewise you could probably only get it off a stranger if you literally sat there whilst they rubbed their bodily fluids all over you.

19071 ▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Farinances, 6, #306 of 1297 🔗

In any case I think we can safely even without a peer reviewed study that virus particles do not migrate to your feet and then exude from the soles of your shoes.

Reading the actual story isn’t it just as likely that the Hercule Poirot of Singapore is overestimating his sleuthing abilities and that those people caught the virus from any of the thousands of unknown infections that would been around at the time?

19074 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to guy153, 3, #307 of 1297 🔗

It seems kinda like that false alarm in South Korea – where they said the guy went on a club crawl and infected a shit tonne of people, then later it got debunked somehow.

19641 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Farinances, 2, #308 of 1297 🔗

Well I wish they’d make more of the debunking because our “experts” are still using the original version to promote the second spike bollox.

19094 ▶▶▶ Sally, replying to Farinances, 6, #309 of 1297 🔗

I agree, and I wonder whether this forum is going to have to turn into “Social Distancing Skeptics”, because if the lockdown ends and this garbage is still in place that will be a disaster.

19835 ▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Sally, 2, #310 of 1297 🔗

Social distancing is the continuation of lockdown by any other means.

It is against nature.

19164 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to guy153, 3, #311 of 1297 🔗

Great point

19076 swedenborg, 14, #312 of 1297 🔗

“It is highly likely that the most important reason leading governments to close schools was the evidence that the early introduction of this restrictive measure had been effective in reducing influenza incidence rates and related clinical, social, and economic problems during both seasonal and pandemic influenza outbreaks. 1 However, it is not at all certain that the same advantages can be expected in the case of the COVID-19 pandemic. It is even possible that school closure may have negative effects and lead to greater medical, economic, and social problems. Modelling studies seem to indicate that school closure can be significantly effective for infection control only when the outbreaks are due to viruses with low transmissibility and attack rates are higher in children than in adults. This applies to influenza viruses and influenza infection but does not seem valid for coronaviruses, including SARS-CoV-2, which have different transmission dynamics, or for COVID-19, which affects mainly adults and elderly individuals.”

This is from JAMA USA. It is unbelievable that UK is not opening schools immediately. There is now multiple reports how low transmission is in schools of Covid-19. All statistics show that flu is up to 8 time deadlier in primary school children.
Are we going to have yearly closure of primary schools because of influenza we have every year?
The Directors of Public Health coming out against school openings have lost all credibility if there was anything left.

19079 Farinances, replying to Farinances, 2, #313 of 1297 🔗

Maybe TMI – but today I got invited for a smear test.

Does this mean service has been resumed?

19123 ▶▶ Mark H, replying to Farinances, 16, #314 of 1297 🔗

Luckily you don’t live in Nicola’s Kingdom where she’s stated the NHS is still under too much pressure and it’s not safe yet to resume these potentially live saving tests.

In the whole of Scotland we have 20 CV19 patients in ICU.

19643 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Farinances, 1, #315 of 1297 🔗

It’s a glimmer of hope.

19083 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 14, #316 of 1297 🔗

“Now, Colorado has published the results of ongoing antibody tests with a massive sample size of 56,000. The study found, as of Thursday, that 7.75% of the entire state has been infected. That means that an estimated 489,500 Coloradoans have already had the virus. If you divide Colorado’s 1,135 deaths by the number of infections, you get a 0.23% IFR – almost exactly what the CDC pegged as the IFR nationwide!”
Publication after publication come to this figure about IFR. And it must still be lower as we are not counting the asymptomatic not ever tested. This latest from Colorado is a massive test number. Also in a state in the middle of US and not on the coasts .The virus have been spread more evenly than suspected over the US landmass.

19095 ▶▶ Sally, replying to swedenborg, #317 of 1297 🔗

Can you direct me to the results in the linked folders?

19105 ▶▶ OKUK, replying to swedenborg, 4, #319 of 1297 🔗

What we need to remember when looking at these sorts of stats is that many more people will simply be able to repel the virus before it “boards”. So they have been exposed to the virus but they deal with it in their nasal cavity, at the back of their throat or in their gut. They don’t need to develop antibodies. So what you might call the “repelled exposure rate” might be vastly higher than 7.75%. The other thing is – how “random” are these exercises? Where are they taking place? Do they include people with poor hygiene? Are they biased towards hospitals and care homes? I wonder – presumably in very aged and ill people, although they may be exposed to the virus and it may kill them, they may be unable to produce antibodies, due to their ill health…

19284 ▶▶▶ swedenborg, replying to OKUK, #320 of 1297 🔗

This study was people over 18 visiting grocery stores in New York. So ordinary people walking into the store. Not care home and hospitals but randomly collected in stores. And then subdivided into ethnicity etc.

19287 ▶▶▶▶ swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, #321 of 1297 🔗

Sorry comment for another of my blog about New York study.Can’t comment on details of the Coloradostudy

19683 ▶▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to swedenborg, 1, #322 of 1297 🔗

You have a blog and you’re not telling us the URL? I’d be interested in reading it.

19949 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ swedenborg, replying to guy153, #323 of 1297 🔗

Sorry.The Colorado statistics was in the link above
But when you click on links in this article you can’t get to the original statistics. I therefore gave links to a similar study in Florida below with even more people tested and the results rather similar.

19379 ▶▶ swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, #324 of 1297 🔗

I found this on Florida 29th May rather similar figure and linked above,123000 persons tested for Covid-19 antibodies enormous numbers 4.4 % positive. A bit lower than Colorado but important is that testing is now done at that scale. Sorry not to get a link to the exact Colarado figures but the the documented Florida figureres above is on even bigger testing scale so the Colarado figures are most likely correct.

19385 ▶▶▶ jrsm, replying to swedenborg, 1, #325 of 1297 🔗

Interesting, the population of Florida is estimated at 21.5 million according to the latest census. and we have 2461 deaths according to Worldometer. 2461 / 21.5 million * 0.044 is 0.26%.

19738 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to swedenborg, #326 of 1297 🔗

They will never know what the real IFR is but I think looking at all the data right now we can surmise it’s probably lower than a normal flu. Like……. a ‘rhinovirus’ maybe.
AKA……. The common cold

19088 RS @ home, replying to RS @ home, 30, #327 of 1297 🔗

Keeping your kids at home is NOT the way to protest and does NOT help the lockdown sceptics’ cause. There are three simple reasons for this:
1.      Kids don’t differentiate between the silly rules we make for them.
2.      We must claim our freedom, not sulk at home that we don’t like its form.
3.      We should maximise our interactions to end lockdown sooner.

1. Kids don’t differentiate between the silly rules we make for them.
Our son went to school today. Only 5 out of 15 of his reduced class-size showed up, but he was sooo excited to see his friends, few as they were. He absolutely loved it! And according to the class WhatsApp group, many of his classmates said it was the best day ever. Yes, there were some new rules, but do you think that is what he talked about when he came home? Absolutely not. We had to ‘interrogate’ him to find out about the new arrangements.
Some people think our kids care about these ‘special’ new rules. However, I think that to them, they are just more silly rules. “Don’t run in the hallway.” “Don’t run in the house.” “Don’t shout on the bus.” “Don’t eat with your mouth open.” “Don’t point at people.” “Don’t talk about other people when they can hear you.” “But don’t whisper in company either!” “Don’t sit right next to your friend at lunch.” These are all just silly rules to our kids. Do they care about their silliness? Do they differentiate between one set of silly rules and another set of silly rules? Are they emotionally scarred by one set of silly rules, and not by another set of silly rules? Come on now, of course not! They are just getting on with life, trying to minimise the ‘tax’ of the rules on having fun.

2. We must claim our freedom, not sulk at home that we don’t like its form.
In order to regain our and our kids’ freedoms (which were always our prerogative, and never the Government’s to ‘grant’), we must start by claiming what little we have been granted. What good could it possibly do to sulk at home that we don’t like the form of our reduced freedoms? Get out there and claim what is rightfully yours and your kids’. So at least, you have got that. And then demand more, of course.
Mix in a little bit of deviousness, and you could tell your kids not to pay too much attention to the new rules. Kids never really listen anyway, right? How often do you have to tell your kids the same thing? Well, let’s see how often they need to tell our kids these new rules before our kids get them. Hopefully, the new rules will be gone before long.

3. We should maximise our interactions to end lockdown sooner.
All that the lockdown-believers ever had, was spreading fear by predicting disaster if we did not comply. But every time that the spell was tested, nothing happened. They spelled disaster if Sweden would not lock down. Sweden did not lock down. Disaster did not happen. They spelled disaster if Florida opened up when it did. Disaster did not happen. They spelled disaster when our Government started relaxing the rules a little bit. Disaster did not happen. On the contrary, infections have dropped 35% in the last 7 days https://covid.joinzoe.com/data#levels-over-time .
The examples are countless, and still they tell us we should be fearful. Fearful of a second wave, fearful that immunity has not been proven, fearful that there might be terrible things in the future that we don’t know about. So, some people are really fearful.
We can do our little bit to help demonstrate that there is nothing to fear, by maximising our interactions now, and showing that it does not lead to disaster. They said that allowing people from different households to meet would lead to disaster. They said that reopening schools would lead to disaster. Let’s meet other households and let’s send out kids to school if we can, and let’s prove them wrong. Let’s demonstrate that this line https://covid.joinzoe.com/data#levels-over-time just keeps going down, regardless of how many rules are relaxed.
The sooner we can expose that there is no foundation for the fear, the sooner we can all move on. So that people dare to resume their lives, so that the teacher’s unions stop their protests, so that we stop talking about 2 metres distance, and so that we forget about a ‘new normal’.

19092 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to RS @ home, 15, #328 of 1297 🔗

I agree 😊
You have to interact with the stupid rules sometimes in order to fuck with them.
My friend sent her daughter back to school today. Apparently she thought the rules were silly. She will return to normality after each day and be treated totally normally by her parents and grandparents which will make the rules seem even more silly.
It’s the parents that matter I think. Which is sad because most of them still seem to be terrified.

19103 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Farinances, 11, #329 of 1297 🔗

This is the crux – sensible parents (and grandparents !) will make sure their kids are alright. Children of the fearful will be in a difficult place.

19121 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Farinances, 6, #330 of 1297 🔗

Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings cometh truth.
Truth. Not bloody viruses.
Such a pity most adults have been so inoculated against truth that there is no chance whatever of their catching it.

19102 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to RS @ home, 9, #331 of 1297 🔗

I’m not sure, RS. I very definitely think that adults should push this nonsense to the limit and beyond, all the time, and in every way we can think of.

Kids is somewhat different though, and very much age-dependent. Schools are, sadly, very good at instilling conformity.

My granddaughter was very happy to be going back to school today, to see her best friend. Sod being devious, I said “Will you give her a big hug ?” “YES”, she shouted, just ahead of her mum (who teaches at the school) could get in with her “No”.

19142 ▶▶ paulito, replying to RS @ home, 5, #332 of 1297 🔗

Interesting post and I think there’s a lot in what you say. In Spain, muzzles are compulsory in public where a 2 metre distance is impossible. What’s actually happening is that there are fewer and fewer muzzle wearers and those who wear the useless rags seem less afraid of those who don’t. Even muzzle wearers no longer swerve when passing other people in the street.

19230 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to RS @ home, 1, #333 of 1297 🔗

Thanks for the great post. Now if we could only get the other year groups back to school.

19486 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Victoria, 7, #334 of 1297 🔗

Funny how everybody talks as if getting the kids back to school were an enormous problem, when all they need to do is resume exactly where they left off before the mega idiocy started. After all, the bug was allegedly’circulating’ at the time, and no kids or teachers dropped dead that I can remember.

19930 ▶▶▶ RS @ home, replying to Victoria, 2, #335 of 1297 🔗

Absolutely agree with you, Victoria! Keep pushing!
We just got the happy news that our little one can go back to nursery next week. I must admit that we had been hounding them a bit with stories of other places opening up, and why weren’t they doing the same.. perhaps that made a tiny difference.
Guidance from the Government is that the kids should all be going back before Summer, right? It’s just a matter of when? So why not next week? Ask them, why not next week? They were all so afraid that return to school would lead to disaster, right? But there is no disaster, right? Where is the surge in cases and hospital admissions? Exactly, there isn’t. So carry on then, keep opening up!

19932 ▶▶▶ RS @ home, replying to Victoria, 1, #336 of 1297 🔗

Absolutely agree with you, Victoria! Keep pushing!
We just got the happy news that our little one can go back to nursery next week. I must admit that we had been hounding them a bit with stories of other places opening up, and why weren’t they doing the same.. perhaps that made a tiny difference.
Guidance from the Government is that the kids should all be going back before Summer, right? It’s just a matter of when? So why not next week? Ask them, why not next week? They were all so afraid that return to school would lead to disaster, right? But there is no disaster, right? Where is the surge in cases and hospital admissions? Exactly, there isn’t. So, carry on then, keep opening up!

19649 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to RS @ home, 1, #337 of 1297 🔗

Brilliant post with concrete suggesitons. Thanks.

19832 ▶▶ Julian, replying to RS @ home, #338 of 1297 🔗

What a lovely post.

19984 ▶▶ BTLnewbie, replying to RS @ home, 1, #339 of 1297 🔗

Great post.
The “joinzoe” website you link to (which has a lot of followers, I believe) has a 1 June article “Lessons from previous Pandemics” ‘proving’ that lockdown, quarantine, track and trace are the only solution.
That’s what we’re up against – depressing!

19090 swedenborg, 5, #340 of 1297 🔗


Counting deaths of Covid-19 and comparing countries is getting more and more complicated.
In Finland only Covid-19 deaths occurring in a health care institution is counted. The criteria prescribe that the deceased must have tested positive for and died of complications caused by the new coronavirus. Deaths in care homes of Covid-19 might not be counted. As Finland have few deaths in all of Covid-19 perhaps not such a big problem.
In Sweden things are complex as regarding death of Covid-19. There are two different systems. One is done by FoH(Public Health Agency) and count as death anybody with Covid-19 pos diagnosis and death within 30 days. The Covid-19 test results is checked with reported deaths. The other is done by National Board of Health and Welfare(NBHW) which is the official death certificate. A doctor must report a death immediately separately and then within 3 weeks send in a certificate with the cause of death.
On 21st April NBWH had 1491 deaths of Covid-19 according to cause of death on certificate. But only 82 % were pos for Covid-19 in the laboratory report. During the same period in FoH 1329 patients were pos for Covid-19 and reported to have died and having a cause of death certificate. However, 4.5% of them had in the death certificate, death of other causes than Covid-19.

19093 Jeffrey Strahl, replying to Jeffrey Strahl, 3, #341 of 1297 🔗

Today is the second time i see a reference here to WHO reversing course and now recommending against face masks. Also made in one of the comments earlier. Any reference that can be pointed to? This would be huge, but i hate to tell this to anyone without having a reference.

19261 ▶▶ Jenny, replying to Jeffrey Strahl, #342 of 1297 🔗

I can find nothing about this either and like you am loathe to mention without a citation or reference of some sort…..if you find one can you post it here please ?

19463 ▶▶▶ Edna, replying to Jenny, 1, #343 of 1297 🔗

Is this what you were looking for? It doesn’t say it’s recommendations have changed though…

19708 ▶▶▶▶ Jeffrey Strahl, replying to Edna, #344 of 1297 🔗

There is this, but in regards to medical masks, not clear if it applies to all facial coverings.

  • If you are healthy, you only need to wear a mask if you are taking care of a person with COVID-19.
  • Wear a mask if you are coughing or sneezing.
  • Masks are effective only when used in combination with frequent hand-cleaning with alcohol-based hand rub or soap and water.
  • If you wear a mask, then you must know how to use it and dispose of it properly.

19096 John P, replying to John P, 18, #345 of 1297 🔗

I visited my parents again tonight, now that it is legal to do so. Their garden summer house seemed a safe venue for the rendezvous. They are both 77 and in reasonable health. Well, my father has prostate cancer, but it’s not at an advanced stage, though his treatment has been delayed.

They seemed a little grumpy when I arrived. On reflection I wondered if they’d been quarrelling. My father shares some of my skepticism and his social life – mostly the nineteen holes of golf – has been blighted. In particular, although he is again at liberty to play, it is now only possible for him to play eighteen holes. The vital nineteenth is still off limits. Much to his chagrin no doubt.

It was nice though to see my mother putting up a bit of resistance to the continued closure of the churches.

The highlight of the afternoon was an amusing anecdote from my father. (Well, I thought it was amusing, though my father was none too pleased.)

He related that he had almost cleaned up a conscientious citizen that afternoon. Apparently the wayward townsman had considered that my father’s motor vehicle was a safer bet than the fellow pedestrian who was approaching him the other way on the pavement. Having assessed the risk to his life as too great, the brave man had leaped off the pavement and into the road – doubtlessly avoiding certain death by virus – hoping instead, no doubt, to be welcomed into the loving embrace of the bullbars of my father’s 4×4 mercedes. He was to be disappointed. My father may be 77, but his reflexes – and wits – are still about him.

19122 ▶▶ annie, replying to John P, 12, #346 of 1297 🔗

Rather a pity your dad missed, I’d say.

19098 OKUK, replying to OKUK, 30, #347 of 1297 🔗

Last week Emily Maitlis thought failure to respect the lockdown, even in just one case (yes Dominic’s of course), the greatest evil on Earth.

This week? Quelle surprise…although Emily saw numerous video shots of people not social distancing while they engaged in manufactured protests across the USA, UK and elsewhere she didn’t mention it once on Newsnight. In fact she seemed only too keen to back these people who have no respect for lockdown legislation.

In other news…cycling along the Thames path today I must have seen 100 plus kids congregating at various points to swim in the river (probably more dangerous than Covid to under 18s if they imbibe any rats’ urine) and play on the river beaches. The idea that they would be more at risk in the structured environment of school is absolutely absurd but our teachers’ unions propagate this nonsensical idea.

19120 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to OKUK, 15, #348 of 1297 🔗

There’s something deeply ironic about ‘protesters’ throwing missiles, burning cars and looting while wearing the face masks that do-gooder busybodies have been promoting. No doubt some people (like Guardian readers) think that not only are these people looting in a noble cause and have deeply-held ethical concerns, but they are also respecting social distancing.

19273 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Barney McGrew, 3, #349 of 1297 🔗

Can’t help thinking they like the masks for more traditional reasons – the Clanton gang, Butch & Sundance, Jesse James, etc.

20158 ▶▶▶▶ Shep, replying to JohnB, 1, #350 of 1297 🔗

Yep, Fake pandemic, mandatory masks, Fake cop killer, mandatory riot with mandatory mask.Wonder what is behind it all, must all be just Fake.

19180 ▶▶ IanE, replying to OKUK, 1, #351 of 1297 🔗

Of course, there is an enormous difference in Cummings’ case: RULE-MAKERS SHOULD NOT BE RULE-BREAKERS!!!

19099 Allen, replying to Allen, 15, #352 of 1297 🔗

I think you will find that the excess deaths in the US are going to go down further once averaged out.

Essentially there has been an event which has caused a “bulk rate” death count in the US- and elsewhere. That event is not some virus that landed from Venus rather it is one of administrative euthanasia brought about by very real health and government officials.

The elderly from nursing homes (in the UK you call these care centers) in the US are the victims of this negligence- these are crimes not issue of a viral contagion.

Now that many of the “low hanging fruit” (forgive this crass comment) have been put down by The State we will see that there will be a temporary lowering of the death rate- until the cycle begins again assuming the social conditions worsen which is a near certainty given the consequences of the lockdown and the accompanying economic wreckage.

It should also be noted that these “excess mortality rates” need context. For example in the US death rates were in decline up until 2008- then these rates began to go into an upward cycle that has continued every year since.

Italy is another excellent case study as their data is clear- these “excess deaths” have become common place in Northern Italy over the last decade due to social conditions deteriorating- primarily due to the increased levels of (and different types of particulates) pollution but also due to an aging population and the deterioration of their health system.

It’s much easier (and profitable for certain sectors) to simply call this a viral problem when in fact it is a systemic problem.

19101 ▶▶ OKUK, replying to Allen, 7, #353 of 1297 🔗

I’d say most care homes in the UK are designed to spread viruses. Rather than have people grouped in separate locations within a Home, the tendency is to get everyone close together in one central room, often very close together. This is no reflection on the standard of care from the staff – which is, more often than not, superb. But if people are put so close together in rooms with no ventilation (pretty much) , then it is very easy for viruses to spread. I am not saying there is an easy solution and any solution will cost. But I think the idea of a central room for residents should be put to one side as an historical mistake.

19655 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to OKUK, 1, #354 of 1297 🔗

My dad was in a care home and fortunately had the choice to stay in his own room where he could watch documentaries on BBC4 and listen to audiobooks. The prospect of being herded into a room with a load of old women and left to watch daytime tv was our worst nightmare.

Like everything we’re missing right now, IT SHOULD BE A CHOICE.

19114 Sally, replying to Sally, 5, #355 of 1297 🔗

James Delingpole in discussion with Dr John Lee:

Fantastic conversation: make time to listen. Why don’t we have people of his calibre advising governments?

19152 ▶▶ steve, replying to Sally, 2, #356 of 1297 🔗

Will def have a listen.

I would also recommend going back and listening to the London calling podcasts from the beginning. Great banter and it’s interesting to hear the pre lockdown sceptic Toby Y and Delingpole discussing how panicked they are then eventually coming to the realization that it’s all nonsense.

19658 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to steve, #357 of 1297 🔗

Been there, done that! (blush)

19659 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Cheezilla, #358 of 1297 🔗

PS: The panicking, I mean.

19186 ▶▶ Margaret, replying to Sally, 6, #359 of 1297 🔗

Yes, Dr Lee just oozes common sense, especially when he talks about the “science” having changed but not the narrative.

19116 Barney McGrew, replying to Barney McGrew, 20, #360 of 1297 🔗

So we all know that the lockdown was, is, the biggest mistake ever made by any British prime minister. But even beyond that there is another self-inflicted wound: the failure to put test results in context, and the seemingly deliberate exaggeration of Covid death figures. In today’s Guardian Larry Elliott writes about re-opening schools:

“Yet, while the infection rate in the UK has fallen markedly from its peak in April, it is still higher than it was in Germany and France when the schools were reopened. In Spain and Italy, where infection rates per head of population are similar to the UK’s, teaching has not resumed. That, coupled with the fact that primary school classes are on average higher than the European average, means the prime minister should remember the advice of the Roman emperor Augustus: make haste slowly.


So gestures such as increasing testing result in the killing of your own economy by ‘finding’ more infections, and prompting even intelligent people like Larry Elliott to see only the bad headlines.

At every stage, the UK government has sought to make the figures look as bad as possible for as long as possible, thus making itself look incompetent in the eyes of the people who matter: the unthinking morons. And in doing so it has ruined the futures of the rest of us. It is still doing it, even now, digging itself – and us – in, ever deeper.

19125 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to Barney McGrew, 19, #361 of 1297 🔗

Indeed. And the piecemeal lockdown lifting is just a ruse to ensure the ‘unthinking morons’ don’t notice they’ve been had!

19131 kh1485, 11, #362 of 1297 🔗

I will be trying to do my bit for getting more signatures on the ‘End (un) social distancing’ petition by placing an actual notice on a bit of fencing that ordinarily acts as a quasi notice board just beyond the main car park in our town. I will also make its existence known to fellow lockdown sceptics who come into my shop. Small steps, but it’s a start …

19134 Tim Bidie, 17, #363 of 1297 🔗


..respiratory infections are a major cause of hospitalisation, morbidity and death among the elderly. Underlying chronic health conditions make patients both more susceptible and vulnerable to severe disease, and hospitalisation rates during outbreaks can be high. Respiratory infections may also spread rapidly in care homes, resulting in high attack rates due to prolonged close contacts between residents, and between patients and their carers.

Risk groups…..:

 Neurological, hepatic, renal, pulmonary and chronic cardiac disease

 Diabetes mellitus

 Severe immunosuppression

 Age over 65 years……..

 Morbid obesity (BMI ≥40)

Hand hygiene is a key infection control precaution to reduce transmission between staff and patients.

……..staff should work with either symptomatic patients only, or asymptomatic patients, but not both,

barrier measures such as gloves, gowns and surgical facemasks may be considered to reduce the spread of respiratory viruses.

suspend transfers to other care homes during the outbreak period. Visits or other transfers to acute medical facilities should be considered based on medical necessity and the destination facility should be warned in advance about the infection risk.

……..the dominant circulating strain may vary with one dominant strain being replaced by a second strain later in the same season.


Sound familiar? It should do to the government’s advisers. It was issued October 2018 regarding Influenza Like Illnesses (ILI) in care homes

Global pandemic? Nonsense on stilts!

P.S. Note that the ‘second wave’ idea comes from influenza research, and that, if there was a peak in overall mortality, including ILI, in January (and there was) we may already be well past any second peak (which occurred more typically during the colder weather!)

19146 hotrod, replying to hotrod, 4, #364 of 1297 🔗

Can anyone explain why the government are still continuing to make the numbers look worse than they are?

Surely as they ‘rush’ relaxing of lockdown they will want to do quite the opposite?

19363 ▶▶ annie, replying to hotrod, 1, #365 of 1297 🔗

Keeping people frightened keeps them obedient.

19662 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to hotrod, 2, #366 of 1297 🔗


19758 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to hotrod, 2, #367 of 1297 🔗

Because they have dug themselves into a hole and rather than do a mea culpa and apologise they decided to keep on digging.

19150 steve, replying to steve, 14, #368 of 1297 🔗

From the SAGE meeting minutes

“Lifting restrictions on assembly will also permit protests against the economic effects of the lockdown,which will become more visible as time wears on”


19181 ▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to steve, 8, #369 of 1297 🔗

Hence the de facto curfew by way of yesterday’s statutory instrument. I hope returning MPs today due their civic duty to get this removed.

19182 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to steve, 12, #370 of 1297 🔗

A few of us have already predicted on these very pages the possibility of protests and rioting especially when the aftershocks come and the economic fallout becomes a reality. The furlough scheme has been hiding the unemployment figures, what those figures will look like come October when it comes to an end is pretty much academic. Add figures that will come in the last 3 months of the year when more businesses go bust will make very sober reading indeed.

Surely the government knows that they need to act now to stem the tide and minimise any economic fallout from the lockdown and social distancing. Why they haven’t is infuriating and is only asking for trouble later.

19191 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to steve, 6, #371 of 1297 🔗

Fascinating stuff. Interesting that the government’s policy is partly driven by the drivel that comes out of the Guardian.

19664 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Barney McGrew, 3, #372 of 1297 🔗

Which is sponsored by our friend Bill.

19290 ▶▶ steve, replying to steve, 2, #373 of 1297 🔗

Read some of the other stuff in that document. Staggering. This is one document of hundreds of pages!

19663 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to steve, 2, #374 of 1297 🔗

Definitely psyops then!

19161 Padowan, replying to Padowan, -20, #375 of 1297 🔗

“Simon Dolan, self-made multimillionaire, Le Mans winner and author, is launching a legal action against the UK government’s lockdown legislation, brought in to tackle the coronavirus outbreak. He spoke to me from his apartment in Monaco about his case.”

That last line is beyond satire. I’d be deeply sceptical about taking lessons in serving the needs of the British public from a tax dodging multi-millionaire. Clearly a naked attempt to protect his investments. By all means let’s have a grassroots anti-lockdown movement, but this guy stinks of privilege and self interest.

19232 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Padowan, 18, #376 of 1297 🔗

At least someone is willing to take the lead in fighting this erosion of our rights and liberties. Don’t see any others leading figures doing that.

19464 ▶▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to Victoria, 7, #377 of 1297 🔗

Just Lord Sumption.
It’s astonishing, isn’t it? Where are they all?

19234 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Padowan, 11, #378 of 1297 🔗

It’s not him I’m interested in, it’s really worth reading their legal arguments, published on the crowd justice site (and people said all kinds of stuff about Gina Miller, but the law is the law).

19245 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to Padowan, 19, #379 of 1297 🔗

What’s wrong with him wanting to protect his investments? If he’s self-made, I would think that was even more of a reason to do so. It would have been far easier for him to sit on his arse and do nothing. I for one couldn’t give a toss how rich he is, at least he’s doing something

19349 ▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to kh1485, 7, #380 of 1297 🔗

You’re right. The term “self-made” was originally used pejoratively by people from ‘old money’, but is now being parroted by ignorant tw*ts who think they’re being edgy and anti-establishment. For them, ‘self-made’ represents an oik who has thrived under the wickedness of private enterprise rather than a warrior for the left who has bravely and honourably sucked at the public teat like themselves.

19432 ▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Barney McGrew, 5, #381 of 1297 🔗

The embarrassment about money is a REALLY middle class concern!

19456 ▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to BecJT, 5, #382 of 1297 🔗

V true. You rarely see working class people agonising about people with money standing up for them. Also imo the greatest leftwing politician we’ve ever had (Tony Benn) was pretty posh, so……

19462 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Farinances, 3, #383 of 1297 🔗

He was really terribly posh! And I agree, you rarely see them agonising about it either if they come into it (this is why Labour keeps losing elections!).

19826 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Padowan, 2, #384 of 1297 🔗

I don’t know much about Dolan. He’s put his weight behind a legal case that could make things a lot better for Britain. At present, I am not too worried about understanding all of his motives for doing so. It’s not as if he’s being proposed as the next PM, though it’s hard to see how he can do a worse job.

I’d like to think that those of us who think that saving lives at all costs is mad and wrong and impossible, and who are realistic about politicians and their motives, can unite behind that point of view regardless of other views we hold.

I was actually hoping he could be persuaded, along with others, to fund a team of machiavellian Facebook manipulators a la Cummings with Brexit, to tip the balance a bit towards the sceptical point of view, given the mass media are not giving those views much room. But maybe that’s not a good idea.

19167 DAP, replying to DAP, 3, #385 of 1297 🔗

I won’t be licking the floor of the tube.

19172 ▶▶ IanE, replying to DAP, #386 of 1297 🔗

And, you never know, it might keep Corbyn in his seat!

19465 ▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to DAP, 1, #387 of 1297 🔗

Probably wise.

19168 Markus, replying to Markus, 2, #388 of 1297 🔗

Another Bill Gates business adventure…


19639 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Markus, 1, #389 of 1297 🔗


19987 ▶▶ BTLnewbie, replying to Markus, #390 of 1297 🔗

The link says the Twitter account is now suspended – more censorship?

19174 John Smith, replying to John Smith, 14, #391 of 1297 🔗

We have to understand this situation is a projection of their fear not ours. They are terrified of us and know the game is up. It’s only a matter of time.

The empire is like a drunk refused entrance to a nightclub on a Saturday night. So it may go home, get a gun and drive up onto the pavement at the bouncers. Truth is, its never coming in. No one wants a drunk on the dance floor.

No one.

Everyone has had enough of this tosser.. and yes, it’ll rage, threaten and intimidate but sooner or later someone will kick the shit out of him. It won’t take much…

Really, it won’t… and it’s coming.

Nothing and no one stops the dance.

19236 ▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to John Smith, 5, #392 of 1297 🔗

hear, hear

19178 Cbird, replying to Cbird, 6, #393 of 1297 🔗

A parliamentarian with a backbone: great piece from Lord Dobbs who is ready to get back to work My hair is long, I’m 71 – but it’s my duty to get back to work


19196 ▶▶ Tom Blackburn, replying to Cbird, 7, #394 of 1297 🔗

There is a lot of content on BBC iPlayer where the Lord’s have discussed lockdown. You won’t be surprised to read that this is usually done with a much more cooler, proportionate tone than the lower chamber.

19206 ▶▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to Tom Blackburn, 8, #395 of 1297 🔗

I wouldn’t get too excited about the Lords. Most of them are just as bad as the other lot. Most of the institutions of this country benefit from their longstanding reputations as respectable and sensible organisations, but those reputations were build up by decent people long since retired or dead and are simply no longer true.

19233 ▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Cbird, 23, #397 of 1297 🔗

Thanks for that, it came at the right time.

I cannot see the end, my short trip into the surreal world really damaged me. If this is going is going to go on much longer I have no idea what’s going to happen.

My wife was intubated and ventilated for 3 weeks in the swine flu epidemic. Within the first couple of hours I waited for the consultant before I could see her with my 2 young daughters. He showed up with his registrar in tow. I thought, ‘this doesn’t look look good….’. ‘We are doing everything we can but we aren’t expecting her to survive the night’.

OK, not exactly what I was expecting. To cut a extremely long story short, she went from imminent death to dying soon, then surviving with massive morbidity. The staff on the ITU where exceptionally professional and compassionate.

After a couple of days, she was transferred to a general medical ward, that’s where the fight began. Among other things, she had post critical care paralysis. Again to summarise, I turned up every morning to feed her breakfast, perform her personal care and then lunch. Back in the afternoon with the girls and then home. Sleep and repeat.

The nursing staff were lacking in compassion, skills and, at the very worst, basic humanity.

She is now completely back to normal, completely. And I love her.

If that happens last month, she would be dead now. I absolutely 100% believe that.

I cannot understand why people, professional people are not speaking up.

Sorry for ranting on, I’m passionate about good patient care. There is no excuse for neglect or inhuman treatment.

19254 ▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Winston Smith, 14, #398 of 1297 🔗

So sorry that happened, and I hear you and agree. I also wonder why professionals are not speaking up. I have not been ITU sick, but I had a very very serious endocrine disorder that went undiagnosed for a decade (I made a fuss, they took no notice). Being diagnosed, and in the ‘system’ was – if it were possible – a million times worse than the disease. I had some appalling care, and some really cruel things said to me (‘stop crying, we have people here who are actually ill, unlike you’). It took a third private opinion to get anyone to take me seriously (German professor, he was an absolute diamond of a man), he then kicked some serious butt for me (‘how are you not dead?’ he asked me). Patients loved him, he was a brilliant, brilliant man, they hounded him out as a ‘maverick’ as he would not toe the (barbaric) line. For that, and many other reasons, I have not been clapping the NHS.

19269 ▶▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to BecJT, 14, #399 of 1297 🔗

Thanks BecJT, I’m sorry that you had to go through that.

In my previous career I uncovered a rehab ward that was neglecting (possibly abusing) patients, led onto a investigation.

Nurses are advocates for their patients, that should never be forgotten!

I’ve never clapped for the NHS and I hold the most disdain for those who do.

19430 ▶▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Winston Smith, 5, #400 of 1297 🔗

Thanks, and I believe you, I’ve hard so many terrible stories. I’ve been through it all again with gynae (unbelievably patronising and dismissive care, I go private now, I’d rather go without a nice holiday, and at least pick my own care, with someone who will listen and work with me to figure out what’s going on) and I have met so many people who have been through similar. And if you dare complain, the absolute lies they put on your notes! Not just me, I’ve heard so many stories. One friend of mine did not consent to something, that was discussed pre op, she’d done her homework, and did not want it. Surgeon did it anyway, caused very severe problems for her. She tried to get redress, her case was thrown out because he’d put ‘hysterical amnesia’ on her notes, ie) she’d consented she was just to barking mad to remember. They are the bloody mafia.

19498 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to BecJT, 2, #401 of 1297 🔗

Yep, my wife’s a ex-gynae nurse, I’ve heard the stories 😠

19638 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Cbird, 3, #402 of 1297 🔗

Good article!

19669 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Cbird, 3, #403 of 1297 🔗

Awesome dude!

19179 Mark H, 6, #404 of 1297 🔗

One response to this fear-mongering tweet from Scotrail asked if “mental health reasons” were a justified reason to travel. Scotrail replied that walking in your local area is good for physical and mental health.

Can we get all the news networks updated that Scotrail is now offering a mental health counselling service?

19187 Fed up, replying to Fed up, 17, #405 of 1297 🔗

Toby, very interested in your Common Law Rights Party. I would be interested in joining. The Twats have shown themselves to be utterly incompetent and the BBC an organ of the state. They are still peddling CV19 porn and the NHS as a saintly institution beyond reproach. I get sicker each day of this. And my offspring is still 11 weeks without proper education. We should be raging at this. Fingers crossed that the weather turns to shit and the furloughed day trippers wake up to fact that this 3 month paid holiday has destroyed their (and our) futures.

19190 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to Fed up, 19, #406 of 1297 🔗

I agree. The good weather has just aided the fool’s paradise aspect of this. I heard someone in the street the other day saying he was enjoying the lockdown as he was being furloughed and could sit out in the sun. I thought, “just wait until you get back to work pal and your job has gone, you won’t be so bloody cheerful then …” (sorry, uncharitable I know, but these people are just idiots if they think the economy will just spring back into life).

19319 ▶▶▶ paulito, replying to kh1485, 8, #407 of 1297 🔗

Back in the mists of time when we were told house arrest was going to be for 2 weeks to protect the health service, the Spanish gov’ made it clear that any time lost would have to be made up later. This, wage freezes, higher taxes, unemployment and a higher cost of living will be the price that these idiots will be paying for years for their “free” holiday. Sadly, the consequences of their selfish idiocy will be shared by us all.

19193 Anthony, replying to Anthony, 7, #408 of 1297 🔗

Seems like the WHO are now saying that 2m social distancing is twice as effective as 1m (1.5% risk as oppose to 3% risk). Seems quite small either way to me.
Let’s just stand 10m apart – I’m sure that’ll decrease the risk further??


19194 ▶▶ Fed up, replying to Anthony, 13, #409 of 1297 🔗

The only safe place is under your bed receiving food parcels.

19264 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Anthony, 3, #410 of 1297 🔗

WHO are just covering the collective arses of those who thought 2m would be a good idea in the UK, ‘cos we are thick.

19280 ▶▶ StevieH, replying to Anthony, 1, #411 of 1297 🔗

This comes at a very convenient time for HMG, given that the voices for a relaxation are getting louder by the day. This is “The Science” that they will now be following.

19359 ▶▶ annie, replying to Anthony, 3, #412 of 1297 🔗

Best on another planet.
Best of all, send the WHO to another planet, preferably an uninhabitable one.

19203 John Smith, replying to John Smith, 4, #413 of 1297 🔗

Personally, i don’t have a issue with the “lockdown mug” promoted at the top of the page however, i know plenty who would.

Really, guys….?

I mean, come on…

Having that at the top of the page will definitely prove counter productive to some from Scotland or Wales checking the site for the first time…

Just saying…

19297 ▶▶ Sceptique, replying to John Smith, 1, #414 of 1297 🔗

What about a scottie in a kilt?

19209 mjr, replying to mjr, 6, #415 of 1297 🔗

regarding the mugs and t shirts. super idea but i would be a little concerned about wearing something that looks like it is a 15 year old national front t shirt. Unfortunately the union flag and british bulldog imagery has long since been taken over and unlike the st george flag has not as yet been fully rehabilitated.

19217 ▶▶ John Smith, replying to mjr, 9, #416 of 1297 🔗

Apart from anything else , the global nature of this plandemic proves this goes far beyond notions of nationalism.

What we are really dealing with here is an Us vs Them scenario.


19293 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to mjr, 3, #417 of 1297 🔗

I’d go with a bulldog or St George’s cross without too much agonizing.

However, the image of ‘us’ wearing a mask defines the problem – i.e. poor us; whereas for a successful outcome, we should have something that portrays a/the solution !

19671 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to mjr, 1, #418 of 1297 🔗

Yes. I recoiled from the design for those reasons.

19219 BecJT, replying to BecJT, 6, #419 of 1297 🔗

God help us the exec editor of the BMJ https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m2102

I am so fed up of the politicising of this by people who are meant to be impartial. If your blood pressure can stand it, here’s an extract:

“This is meant to be a moment of optimism, a green recovery, centred on the health of people and the planet (doi: 10.1136/bmj.m2077 , doi: 10.1136/bmj.m2076 ), backed by an effective system of testing and contact tracing and possibly informed by a public inquiry (doi: 10.1136/bmj.m2052

People are living in 15th floor council flats in appalling conditions, being propelled into mass poverty, I’m all for saving the planet, but surely Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs dictates our order of priority?!

You’ll be unsurprised to learn he’s pro extinction rebellion, virtue signalling like mad about BLM (I’ve now watched so many videos of BLM telling white, suburban, SJWs to f**k off home, and they don’t need need white folks to speak for them, or meddle with things they don’t understand, I concur, the conflation of genuine grievances with identity politics will be the undoing of us all imho)

He’s also pro the new “independent” sage, that’ll be the one where one member thinks “ China has a socialist, collective system (whatever criticisms people may have) not an individualistic, consumer-oriented, profit-driven society badly damaged by 20 years’ of failed neoliberal economic policies.” https://twitter.com/SusanMichie/status/1238803749373652993 (you’ll be unsurprised to learn she’s terribly posh).

Oh and I am no fan of Cummings, for reasons I won’t repeat, but this seems a massive stretch “Transparency and political interference in scientific advice was controversial even before a trip to Durham by Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s senior aide. It seems incredible that Dominic Cummings, who attended the government’s scientific advisory committee and plays a key role in the pandemic response, thought it reasonable to carry covid-19 from London to a region of lower infectivity and into a local hospital.”

Cue, deadly second wave!

For the Left Wing lurkers amongst us, I really recommend following Paul Embery, he’s a trade unionist, with his head screwed on, and he’s sharing some sensible and sane stuff, about all this, including about the disgraceful political opportunism of the left, and how it’ll come back and bite them, see for e.g. here https://unherd.com/thepost/supporters-of-emily-maitlis-should-be-careful-what-they-wish-for/

You can follow him on twitter here: https://twitter.com/PaulEmbery

19235 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to BecJT, 7, #420 of 1297 🔗

Sadly many of these ‘prestigious’ health journals have hidden political agendas. So many so-called peer review studies are published just to be retracted afterwards.

19249 ▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Victoria, 6, #421 of 1297 🔗

I agree. So many people do too. Even in micro, one of my scottish friends is hugely pro SNP. I know for a fact he broke lockdown, went to stay with his brother as his mental health was up the creek (it was me who told him to go!), privately he’s sent me messages telling me he knows it’s a crock. His facebook is just FULL of pro Nicola, it’s all the Tories fault, deadly second wave, under funding of the NHS is to blame etc etc etc. I have never voted Tory, and I really don’t have a political axe to grind with all this, and when I call him out and say, ‘come on my friend, don’t be a hypocrite’ or I provide data again to show what he’s saying just isn’t factual, he just says, ‘sorry, couldn’t resist’. Which wouldn’t be so bad if we were just arguing about some trivial issue of the day, but this is people’s lives, democracy itself. He’s not a bad person, but he is most assuredly ‘split’ (in the psychological sense, in that at the time he does it, he’s unaware that is what he’s done).

19296 ▶▶▶ Sceptique, replying to Victoria, 6, #422 of 1297 🔗

The recent discredited ‘study’ on hydroxycloroquine in the Lancet is another example.

19323 ▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Sceptique, 5, #423 of 1297 🔗

Editor of the Lancet is another one who deserves a closer look, he most assuredly has an axe to grind.

19268 ▶▶ Dinger, replying to BecJT, 2, #424 of 1297 🔗

Editor of BMJ was a hospital doctor for 5 years and hasn’t practised for 23 years!
Kamran Abbasi is a doctor, journalist, editor, and broadcaster.
Following five years in hospital medicine, in various medical specialties such as psychiatry and cardiology, he worked at The BMJ from 1997 to 2005. He is now back at The BMJ in a new role as executive editor for content, leading the journal’s strategic growth internationally, digitally, and in print.

19318 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to BecJT, 2, #425 of 1297 🔗

Paul is a hot ginger warrior.
He’s a fireman too. Miaow. #lockdownthirst

19324 ▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Farinances, 2, #426 of 1297 🔗

I confess to a certain weakness for firemen 🙂

19418 ▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to BecJT, 1, #427 of 1297 🔗

I live next door to one – do you want to buy my house 😉

19455 ▶▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to kh1485, 1, #428 of 1297 🔗

Only if I can accidentally set it on fire.

19466 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to BecJT, #429 of 1297 🔗

Sadly BecJT, we are not talking Kurt Russell in Backdraft 🙁

19437 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to BecJT, 2, #430 of 1297 🔗

Firemen and male nurses.

Well…. not so much now I’ve seen them all dancing around on TikTok whilst old people die in the next room.

19438 ▶▶▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Farinances, 2, #431 of 1297 🔗

‘male’ nurses……. 🤨

19443 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Tenchy, replying to Winston Smith, 3, #432 of 1297 🔗

Most nurses are women. It’s the type of work that lends itself to women. Similarly, scaffolding, refuse collecting and running FTSE100 companies is work that lends itself to men.

19495 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Tenchy, 2, #433 of 1297 🔗

I’m guessing that’s irony/sarcasm?

19452 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Winston Smith, 2, #434 of 1297 🔗

Sadly there’s no accounting for sexuality 😉 As I’m a straight lady I only fancy the males

19453 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Farinances, 3, #435 of 1297 🔗

And yes, I qualify them as ‘male’ because they are relatively rare and I feel their ‘maleness’ should be celebrated in that context!

19494 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Farinances, 3, #436 of 1297 🔗

🤣 I used to get really annoyed when people referred to me as a ‘male’ nurse, I didn’t mind being called ‘Florence’ by my squaddie mates though…….

Just nurse will do 😉

19689 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Winston Smith, #437 of 1297 🔗

Winston…. are you married? <3

19929 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Farinances, #438 of 1297 🔗

bless you, yes 🤗

19482 ▶▶ annie, replying to BecJT, 4, #439 of 1297 🔗

You know that the infamous Sage terrify-them-all minutes recommended that vulnerable individuals should ‘if possible’ have their own private bathroom? Must have been a welcome piece of advice in tower blocks etc.

19220 Bart Simpson, replying to Bart Simpson, 5, #440 of 1297 🔗

Talk about misplaced priorities:

Nothing about how the current situation is having a negative impact on them and their sector yet found the time to comment about something that didn’t happen here and nothing to do with us.

19221 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Bart Simpson, #441 of 1297 🔗

Wish there was an edit button. Here are the screenshots:

19222 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Bart Simpson, #442 of 1297 🔗
19223 ▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Bart Simpson, #443 of 1297 🔗
19225 ▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Bart Simpson, 3, #444 of 1297 🔗

Sorry … ffs!

19242 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to kh1485, 4, #445 of 1297 🔗

Exactly. Shan’t be visiting the Horniman when it reopens and won’t listen to Classic FM (have actually been boycotting them because of the hourly news bulletins and patronising adverts from the government and NHS).

19258 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Bart Simpson, 3, #446 of 1297 🔗

I’d started listening to Classic FM as there didn’t appear to be as many gov’t “we’re all doomed” ads. But, after this, no more. Used to listen to LBC but the commentary was just getting hysterical (though I still like Nick Abbot as he at least takes the piss a little). Thought Steve Allen was totally irresponsible recently with his “It’s either six foot away, or six feet under” comment …

19454 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to kh1485, 2, #447 of 1297 🔗

They did at one point and that’s why I stopped listening to them. They’re more bearable in the evenings when they focus on longer programmes without the news interrupting every hour. But after this no more.

19357 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Bart Simpson, 1, #448 of 1297 🔗

Heard the gluey ad where a family makes granny’s favourite fudge AND (voice becomes positively syrupy) POSTS IT THROUGH HER LETTER BOX?
We now turn the sound off whenever the music stops.

19227 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cecil B, replying to Bart Simpson, 2, #449 of 1297 🔗

“Blackout” exposing gay black people is not the way forward. I’m getting down on two knees in protest

19229 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Bart Simpson, 3, #450 of 1297 🔗

I happen to agree that the BLM have a right to organise in the states, but the hijacking of genuine grievances by white SJWs and the dishonest conflation of identity politics is just unforgiveable in my view (and actually is just more of the same, the black community do not need white people to speak for them, that’s kinda the point! Even in ‘solidarity’ it’s still the centering of white concerns, it’s causing a great deal of anger).

19243 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to BecJT, 10, #451 of 1297 🔗

You’ve raised good points here. What angers me is how this has been hijacked here when it has nothing to do with us. Instead of getting worked up over how this situation is gradually destroying our way of life and economy, they’re getting worked up over something that has nothing to do with us in order to virtue signal and play to the narrative of orange man bad and America is racist.

19304 ▶▶▶▶ mjr, replying to Bart Simpson, 2, #452 of 1297 🔗

again it is the MSM and BBC who are hyping this up with footage, interviews etc . Just been to shop (still some masks out there) and caught Radio 4 programmed interviewing 3 english black mothers about how they and their children are handling all these reports – so extending the BBC meme that everyone in UK is concerned about USA and the small racism problem it has and how no doubt we in england are all similarly racist. Yet where if the same level of reporting on other events around the world? . China and its racism to Uighar muslims, Muslim countries and their persecution of christians (and also other muslims) etc etc . Hardly a sign, But that does not go with the narrative of USA bad, USA under Trump worse than Stalin and Hitler combined, that they perpetuate

19310 ▶▶▶▶▶ mjr, replying to mjr, 5, #453 of 1297 🔗

hadnt seen the Classic FM thing above .. Sh*t… i just cannot believe the triteness of that. I agree that there is an underlying concern and racism should not be tolerated anywher. But that notice!! Again as i said above .. what about all the other injustices in the world. Why pick on this one. They just cannot watch a bandwagon (or should that be a string quartet wagon (boom boom!!)) go past without jumping on it.
Next it will be thursday – applause for the NHS. Friday applause for the BLM rioters.

19445 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to mjr, 3, #454 of 1297 🔗

Exactly. As Brendan O’Neill pointed out, the same tactics were used against the yellow vest protesters in France…not a peep. China against the Uighurs, gays being persecuted in some African and Muslim countries, violence against women India….all deafening silence. We can go on but they ain’t interested.

19457 ▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to mjr, 4, #455 of 1297 🔗

The Guardian is bad for that sort of thing. My father-in-law complains about their heavy coverage of the USA which I agree. I always find it odd – for a paper that dislikes America they sure are obsessed with the country.

19317 ▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Bart Simpson, 4, #456 of 1297 🔗

I know, I don’t really blame kids for being young and idealistic, it’s kinda the job description when you are 17 and righteous (we’ve all been there), but I do take issue with the naked, cynical political opportunism in play, both with BLM and with Lockdown.

19444 ▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to BecJT, 1, #457 of 1297 🔗

Hear, hear. And how they swallow all this uncritically without checking other stories or looking at the nuances.

19328 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Bart Simpson, 5, #458 of 1297 🔗

Worse for me because imo BLM and antiracism are actively evil, promoting anti-white racism and using dishonest, shroudwaving propaganda to try to bully and browbeat people into accepting their dangerous agenda.

When they parade the latest incidence of violence, with their self-serving and prejudiced assumptions about it and their dishonest misrepresentations of context, they are exactly like the coronapanickers parading some tragic death that is only peripherally, possibly related to covid to try to exaggerate the risks and portray anyone who resists their agenda as a heartless supporter of the deaths of innocents.

The leaders of movements like BLM are emotionally manipulative, politically damaging, whippers up of hatred and violence, and the followers are deluded naive fools, or people who just like having an excuse to justify personal aggression and violence.

Coronapanic and BLM – in this sense, two cheeks of the same basic societal arse, to coin a phrase.

19226 Jenny, replying to Jenny, #459 of 1297 🔗

Can you please ( if atall possible) provide a link to the WHO’s latest advice on mask wearing.? Cant seem to find anything….. Thanks.

19244 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Jenny, 1, #460 of 1297 🔗

Two links have been posted further up the comments section.

19289 ▶▶▶ Jenny, replying to Bart Simpson, #461 of 1297 🔗

Thanks, looked but can find nothing ….I’d like to mention this latest advice to others but cant without legitimate reference…shame.

19450 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Jenny, #463 of 1297 🔗


This briefing (yesterday) appears to be where it came from

19228 swedenborg, 8, #464 of 1297 🔗


New York Study

“Statewide cross-sectional seroprevalence study, conducted April 19-28, 2020 Tested 15,101 adults
entering stores(12.5%) were reactive using a validated SARS-CoV-2 IgG
estimated cumulative incidence through March 29 was 14.0% (95% CI: 13.3-14.7%), corresponding to 2,139,300 (95% CI: 2,035,800-2,242,800) infection-experienced adults.
higher among Hispanic/Latino (29.2%, 95% CI: 27.2-31.2%), non-Hispanic black/African American (20.2% 95% CI, 18.1-22.3%), and non-Hispanic Asian (12.4%, 95% CI: 9.4-15.4%) adults than non-Hispanic white adults (8.1%, 95% CI: 7.4-8.7%, p<.0001)
Conclusions and Relevance: Over 2 million adults were infected through late March 2020, with substantial variations by subpopulations. As this remains below herd immunity thresholds, monitoring, testing, and contact tracing remain essential public health strategies.”
14% pos in the end of March. Must be even higher if we did the test one month later in May.
Implies also that the IFR in New York about 0.3% and not 1 % as stated earlier
Interesting is the last phrase which I think is highly controversial now with multiple publications suggesting lower thresholds herd immunity due to cellular immunity in a big part of population.
But the narrative with TTT must be put up as much as possible otherwise the house of cards would be crushing down.

19237 smileymiley, 5, #465 of 1297 🔗

Losing someone is always bad. But….
Will she set up a memorial for the tens of thousands who die of influenza every year?

19241 Nic, replying to Nic, 1, #466 of 1297 🔗

Off topic but I look at the worldometer every day daily infections are about 100000 but deaths have been steadily falling 3000 yesterday know this will be far from accurate but its interesting all the same.
Also Brazil has done nearly 1 million tests half of which were positive an incredible amount compared to other countries there must be millions that have had it in Brazil I would imagine.

19305 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Nic, 4, #467 of 1297 🔗

If you look on that site at the daily deaths graph for the whole world, it peaked a while ago and the shape of the curve looks a lot like the shape of the curve in every other country.

19246 Oldschool, replying to Oldschool, 47, #468 of 1297 🔗

My mother called me this weekend to inform me that my uncle had passed away, this was of no great surprise as he had been diagnosed with terminal cancer a while ago and his condition had been getting worse resulting in him being admitted to hospital last week, the cancer had spread from his pancreas into most of his major organs and he had been given literally days to live
What was surprising was the cause of death on his death certificate, yes you have guessed it – COVID 19
Apparently in the 8 or 9 days that he had been in hospital before his death he had been given no less than 3 tests for COVID 19!!
Why would you waste money on testing someone in his early eighties with terminal cancer once never mind three times?
Apparently his first 2 tests came back negative and his last test which was taken the day before he died came back positive so it was an “official” COVID 19 death.
This death of an 82 year old man with terminal cancer in all of his major organs who had literally one day to live when he tested positive is now on the statistics as a COVID death.
When this all over we need to demand an enquiry into this kind of stuff and people need to lose their jobs and cosy pensions at the very least

19248 ▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Oldschool, 11, #469 of 1297 🔗

I have no words

19250 ▶▶ swedenborg, replying to Oldschool, 24, #470 of 1297 🔗

Outrageous. Fraudulent. If this happens often the whole death statistics is in grave doubt. And the whole sham response of the government is based upon such figures.

19257 ▶▶▶ Oldschool, replying to swedenborg, 14, #471 of 1297 🔗

It is obviously fraudulent but the problem is that my Aunt or my cousins, who are only ones who can challenge the cause of death, are not going to do this because they have just lost their husband and father and want to move on with their grieving process. The doctors know very well they are not going to be challenged in these cases.
By the way, they now have a funeral to look forward to with only a maximum of 10 mourners and no wake

19679 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Oldschool, 2, #472 of 1297 🔗

That’s how they get away with it year in and year out. Death requires a lot of paperwork and emotional processing, so mourners are rarely in a position to protest. Those who do protest must have the impetus of extreme anger to fuel them.

19354 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to swedenborg, 2, #473 of 1297 🔗

We know it happens often, if only from anecdotal evidence. But the whole disgusting business needs to be investigated.

19252 ▶▶ Morris_Day, replying to Oldschool, 15, #474 of 1297 🔗

It’s clear than those in the system are trying to screw with us by inflating the numbers to the highest possible. It’s pretty obvious why really, they’ve never been adored like they are now and they don’t want it to end. Every additional number keeps this going a little longer.

There is no comparison with other countries because all countries treat cases so differently, unfortunately a combination of our health service and media mean we are going to be the last to get out of this mess in Europe by some way, and our numbers are going to show how right they all were, and how wrong we are.

19253 ▶▶ Old fred, replying to Oldschool, 12, #475 of 1297 🔗

The people ordering these tests are like those who collaborated with the Germans in war time France – quislings. Plus a bit of Gestapo.

19276 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to Old fred, 2, #476 of 1297 🔗

I believe the Norwegians knew what to do with their quislings; our snowflakes, not so much.

19274 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Oldschool, 4, #477 of 1297 🔗

‘people need to lose their jobs and cosy pensions at the very least’ – so true : but they won’t!

19277 ▶▶ steve, replying to Oldschool, 11, #478 of 1297 🔗

This is where I struggle to believe this is not some great conspiracy to usher in george Orwell’s world. This is so obviously doing everything to pad the numbers what else can you believe

19313 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Oldschool, 6, #479 of 1297 🔗

This is truly disgusting.
I wonder if any of you are wealthy enough to do a Simon Dolan, club together and launch a mass court case.

19355 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Farinances, 5, #480 of 1297 🔗

It might come out through the judicial review. Can only hope.

19603 ▶▶ ianric, replying to Oldschool, 2, #481 of 1297 🔗

If an illness or anything else is deadly and dangerous, you should never have to resort to dishonesty to show this. If people are being added to coronavirus dishonesty by including people who have not died of coronavirus, this raises two questions. Firstly, if coronavirus is so dangerous with a high fatality rate, why is it necessary to inflate death figures by including dishonestly people who didn’t have coronavirus? Secondly, why is the government exaggerating the coronavirus threat? I want a full investigation into how coronavirus deaths have been counted.

19740 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to ianric, 1, #482 of 1297 🔗

It’s all nonsense anyway. If they made flu a notifiable disease deaths from other causes in years gone by would take a sudden drop.

19247 Biker, replying to Biker, 23, #483 of 1297 🔗

Day whatever of the global takeover, the News from the Pictish Underground

Here in the continuing tyranny of Socialist Republic of Scotland Citizen Sturgeon has banned Irn Bru, Pints of Lager, Buckfast, microwave burgers from the Garage and Soor Plooms. Space Raiders, Strawberry Milk and Wethers Originals are to be banned from Monday the 11th so make sure you stock up before they are no longer available.
Oor Wullie and the Broons have been banned from social media along with Pigeon Fanciers, Patchwork Quilt Makers, Van Morrison fans and Historical Reenactment Societies. Van Morrisons fans feeling particularly aggrieved because old Van was preparing to release a new album of songs about lost youth, fucking and how he’s sick of this whole thing and just wants to go to the pub, play Draughts and pick up women. They claimed it was gonna be as good as Astra Weeks. The whole problem being Van’s song Brown Eyed Girl is racist and sexist under new Hate Speech Legislation dreamt up by Citizen Sturgeon. She claims libidinous attitudes towards fun, drinking, dreams of youth and a longing for a return to simpler times won’t keep people safe. They need to be sterile, cold, harsh and about as sexy as twenty stone woman riding an electric shopping trolley full of no name brand fizzy juice, frozen chips, Extra Large Nighttime Sanitary Pads and Chat Magazines. Van ‘the Man’ and his fans are now finding out that he ain’t ‘the man’ after all, Nicola is.
This years 12th of July Billy Boys March has applied to the Parade Licence Board for permission to march, observing the mandatory face mask and distance requirement off course. Orange Man Ian Paisley citing new technology in the prevention of spittle flying from the ends of a Flute reducing the chance of those splattered with infected sputum catching covid19 by nearly 95%. They’re still waiting to hear back from the Allowable Music Committee if the popular singalong “The Mustache My Father Wore” is hate speech but have been told that in all likely hood it is.
On a brighter note with no football being played Scotland haven’t slipped further down the world rankings and are still 126th in the world just behind The Peoples Democratic Everything is GenderBalanced and Trans Friendly Black Lives Matter Nation of Special Snowflakes and ahead of Tibet but to be fair to Tibet China has banned them from playing football so it’s gonna very hard to improve their league position

More reports soon.

19350 ▶▶ annie, replying to Biker, 5, #484 of 1297 🔗

Keep it up. Brill.

Some years ago in Scotland, I saw a sign in a public loo urging people to phone a designated number to inform on anybody they thought might be smoking in one of the cubicles.
A foretaste of things to come.

19353 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to annie, 6, #485 of 1297 🔗

First they came for the smokers …

19490 ▶▶▶▶ paulito, replying to JohnB, 6, #486 of 1297 🔗

Never been a smoker but have never been bothered by smokers either. Smoking bans were the final nail in the coffin for lots of pubs.

19547 ▶▶▶ Biker, replying to annie, 2, #487 of 1297 🔗

Scandalous, everyone knows you don’t smoke in a toilet cubicle that’s where junkies go to OD.

19886 ▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Biker, 2, #488 of 1297 🔗

Didn’t say anything about snitching on junkies. So presumably shooting up was considered ok.

20503 ▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to annie, 1, #489 of 1297 🔗

The bad guys make even more money from heroin than they do from tobacco.

19251 paulito, replying to paulito, 10, #490 of 1297 🔗

Looks like the Spanish government are preparing to throw the sainted health service under the bus and shift blame for their own failures. La Razon reports that a note has been sent to La Princesa hospital in Madrid querying their criteria for treatment, triage procedures, use of ventilators and access to ICUs at the height of the pandemic in March. This has been met with “indignation and rage” by the medical profession who have defended their actions pointing out the lack of preparation and resources in hospitals due to government inaction. Interestingly, they have claimed that the condition of many who sought medcal attention worsened while in emergency rooms of hospitals which, in turn, increased demand for ICU beds. The criteria for ICU admissions were determined by the “palbable lack of adequate materials provided by the Ministry of Health before and after the declaration of the state of alarm”.

19926 ▶▶ Barnabas, replying to paulito, 1, #491 of 1297 🔗

Paulito, I hear that the Spanish government intend to extend the emergency measures in the country for another 4 weeks. I also understand that they have been using the emergency measures to force through legislation that is unrelated to C19.

Do you have any insight as to why the Spanish population are accepting this?

19255 VeryCrossChris, replying to VeryCrossChris, 8, #492 of 1297 🔗

For those who haven’t seen it, I spotted this chart posted on Hector Drummond’s site recently. Based on NHS figures, it seems to offer a compelling slam-dunk regarding the futility of the lockdown suggesting that, as of May 26th, the number of fatalities among the under-60s with no pre-existing health conditions, is a statistically-inconsequential 279.

However, adding up all the figures included on the chart results in a total of 25,830 which, obviously, falls way short of the 40,000-or-so figure we currently have for UK, Covid-related deaths.

Can anyone explain the whereabouts of the missing 14,000 or so?

19989 ▶▶ steve, replying to VeryCrossChris, #493 of 1297 🔗

This matches (almost) Swedenborg info above showing belarus with 20x less deaths per million than the uk. I’ll repost his info here

4 hours ago
Boris Johnson UK versus Alexander Lukashenko Belarus.

Belarus seems to just have passed the peak of infection but still longer time to go than UK but looking very good compared to UK.


Test/1 mil UK 63158 Belarus 58561
Cases/1mil UK 4072 Belarus 4593
Deaths/1mil UK 575 Belarus 25
Not bad for a definite non-lockdown country. Had its ice hockey, football and military parades.
And 20 times less death than UK. And the dictator will not expect a 10 % BNP contraction and he didn’t have his population in house arrest

They are most likely saying if person X dies of heart attack CV will not be listed as cause of death. Where as here in the uk they will be.

19256 Colin MacDonald, replying to Colin MacDonald, 10, #494 of 1297 🔗

Nicola Sturgeon is now threatening to tighten the lockdown after mass outbreaks of naughtiness over the weekend. And you thought BoJo was bad. The mentality of our aggressive mollycoddler ruling class! People are breaking the rules!!! I know, let’s make the rules stricter, and then nobody will break the rules. Alas, this is what we get with a toy town parliament, the power to micromanage, but not to govern, and accountability in the same way your town council is accountable, ie none

19391 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Colin MacDonald, 5, #495 of 1297 🔗

Break the rules. Break them with impunity.

19259 thedarkhorse, replying to thedarkhorse, 20, #496 of 1297 🔗

I’m very grateful for the existence of this site and feel uplifted by all the comments. The early days of this lockdown were confusing but it became apparent very quickly that the whole thing was being manipulated for maximum effect, i.e terrorising the population. It was easy to see, when the deaths numbers were being reported, that it was all being inflated , manouvered and positioned to make it look like an absolutely awful killer disease.
What has been gobsmacking is the sheer obedience of the public. Yes government, no government, three bags full. We will comply. The virus is deadly. Lives must be saved. Clap for the NHS. Kneel and worship. The economy can be sorted later. Look at me, I’m wearing a mask and gloves, aren’t I a good, community-minded and caring person? Not like that monster over there who’s got no mask and refuses to stand in a spaced queue. They ought to be arrested. let’s dob in our neighbours for walking the dog more than once a day.
The list is endless. We must not allow the government to wear us down to the point where we literally beg them to end the whole thing by agreeing to ANY terms….any terms at all, and we all know what they would be. Like many here, and I think of Poppy especially, I have family that I cannot visit….they’re in Wales and thus behind the new iron curtain that no Englishman or woman may cross. Not seen them since January, and yes it hurts enormously. But somehow we’ve got to stand firm.
I will not join the mask culture; I will let my hair grow and will take my chances with my teeth. No way will I visit any hair salon or dentist looking like something out of a porno movie.

19345 ▶▶ annie, replying to thedarkhorse, 6, #497 of 1297 🔗

If course we all agree.
But when life returns to normal, WHICH IT WILL, we’ll discover that all these zombies were closet sceptics all through and were never really taken in. Sez they.

19260 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 12, #498 of 1297 🔗

Boris Johnson UK versus Alexander Lukashenko Belarus.

Belarus seems to just have passed the peak of infection but still longer time to go than UK but looking very good compared to UK.


Test/1 mil     UK 63158 Belarus 58561
Cases/1mil    UK  4072   Belarus  4593
Deaths/1mil UK     575  Belarus     25
Not bad for a definite non-lockdown country. Had its ice hockey, football and military parades.
And 20 times less death than UK. And the dictator will not expect a 10 % BNP contraction and he didn’t have his population in house arrest.

19303 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to swedenborg, 9, #499 of 1297 🔗

I think the most pertinant metric will be excess deaths as Belarus may not be bothering to document all CV related deaths.

I’m inclined to think their excess death figures will be proportionately less than countries that had stricter and longer restrictions.

I’m also of the opinion that lockdown and other measures exarcerbated the problem and actually increased the risk of people dying from it.

19315 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Nobody2020, 2, #500 of 1297 🔗

I agree, and Belarus will be a very interesting test case. Assuming, as currently seems likely, it comes out at least no worse than the UK, it will be good ammunition for criticism and even derision aimed at our government and our coronapanicking elites.

They will try to weaken the force of the inherent criticism by claiming that figures from ~Belarus are unreliable, but it’s pretty implausible that a country like Belarus could successfully hide the kind of medical disaster the bedwetters constantly predict.

19332 ▶▶▶ swedenborg, replying to Nobody2020, 1, #501 of 1297 🔗

Lukashenko might fiddle with the deaths (like Johnson in the other direction) but hiding 20 times higher deaths would be difficult. Belarus is a more like Mussolini led rather than a totalitarian state The population is highly educated and catastrophic figures of Covid-19 deaths would be difficult to hide.

19459 ▶▶ DJ Dod, replying to swedenborg, #502 of 1297 🔗

I’ve been wearing a Belarus T-shirt as my own small protest against our very own tin-pot dictator here in the SNPeoples’ Republic!

19982 ▶▶ steve, replying to swedenborg, 1, #503 of 1297 🔗

Their death rate per million is about 5% of the uk.
That would tie in with the data that the vast majority of the uk figures are when people have died of heart attack cancer etc. But they also had a cough so the medics are instructed to put it on the death certificate.
The actual deaths FROM CV are very low

20195 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to steve, 1, #504 of 1297 🔗

Exactly. Italy revised their death figures down to 12% – and they had it particularly bad. 5% genuine covid deaths sounds about right.

19281 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Sarigan, 3, #506 of 1297 🔗

Bookmarked it.

19275 LGDTLK, 3, #507 of 1297 🔗

Got the t shirt. Looking forwatd to my trip to Sainsburys next week!

19278 Barney McGrew, 24, #508 of 1297 🔗

A few weeks ago, Boris was begging me for my vote. Now he “instructs” me on where I may stay. What a w*nker.

19279 Awkward Git, replying to Awkward Git, 30, #509 of 1297 🔗

Put my question on gov.uk/ask for the hell of it:

“Everyday more and more research shows that lockdown was an over-reaction and unnecessary and cannot be proved to have saved one life while the collateral damage deaths are rising, economic destruction continues unabated and health of the nation collapses mentally and physically. The NHS has been saved, Other leaders have apologised to their nations. No 2nd wave on opening up with no over the top “new normal” precautions. What is going on with this country and who’s orders are you following as it’s not the “science”?”

Maybe a knock at the door early one morning and off to the re-eductaion camp because that is where I feel this is heading.

I have been told by people “oh, you don’t want to question as you never know what will happen to you.”

Is this how low this country has sunk, no questioning of authority as the people are frightened of the government?

19300 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to Awkward Git, 18, #510 of 1297 🔗

I agree. The collective shrugging of shoulders and general all-round bloody wimpyness is truly, truly depressing. I’ve said it before, I feel like an alien in my own country, like I’m screaming and no-one is listening. Thank god for LS!

19519 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to kh1485, 3, #511 of 1297 🔗

Well there are more voices than this website now… the press are seeding stories more rapidly, but if you want a huge laugh head over to Youtube and the comments section of daily death update news conferences streamed by BBC news and Sky News.

Hearteningly, it’s now 95% anti-lockdown now…No holds barred! Yeah there are a few going a wee bit too far with the 5g/lizard head stuff but’s it great for a laugh and your soul.

And…. WHAT a change to merely 3 weeks ago. The evisceration is deafening.

If there is some sort of virtue signalling police on Youtube they’ve now given up..

I wonder… could the wokest of wokey dokes Facebook be next? I somehow doubt it sadly

19335 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Awkward Git, 4, #512 of 1297 🔗

It is, very sadly, among a majority of people.

We just need to question more loudly and persistently to make up for them. 🙂

20291 ▶▶ Sue D, replying to Awkward Git, #513 of 1297 🔗

I sometimes feel that the gov’t needs to bring back conscription in the hope that it’ll put a bit of backbone into people. Unfortunately the military are on the same path as all our other institutions. We need a radical overhaul from NHS to education to the military and beyond. A huge cutting of regulations when we leave the EU so that small and medium sized businesses can thrive alongside cuts to the bureaucracy, which burdens our nation in an ever increasing spiral of salaries and pensions.
Lots of work to be done by the Common Law party :).

19291 Julian, replying to Julian, 5, #514 of 1297 🔗

This from Reuters (whose reporting has been as useless as the BBCs).

Headline: Distancing and masks cut COVID-19 risk, says largest review of evidence
Link: https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-protection/distancing-and-masks-cut-covid-19-risk-says-largest-review-of-evidence-idUKKBN2383T6

Read a bit further into the article:
The researchers noted that the findings, while comprehensive, have some limitations for the current pandemic since most of the evidence came from studies of SARS and MERS.”

19712 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Julian, 1, #515 of 1297 🔗

Scaremongering headlines rule, ok!

19292 Biker, replying to Biker, 21, #516 of 1297 🔗

Day whatever of the global takeover, the News from the Pictish Underground ….

Daylight Hours, day? not sure, awaiting press conference at 5pm to tell us.

The Pictish Woman’s Guild of Daisy Chain Makers have been declared a terrorist organisation. Groups of “terrorists” have been seen in parks, fields even in gardens collecting daisies to be turned into frivolous items like bracelets, neck chains and head bands. “We don’t need people relaxing and enjoying nature when nature is the enemy” said the Spokesperson for the We’re All Enjoying This Lockdown Aren’t We! Children, Committee for Public Health. “These people are siding with the dark force that is trying to kill us” they continued . “Nature must be stopped. Anyone found making daisy chains will be treated in the same way people sculpting bushes, pruning roses and using non GM fertiliser like horse dung and organic compost with an extended period of detention in front of BBC News 24 in while locked in the SECC”.
A cat is missing, it’s Black and answers to the name Sushi. Last seen shitting in Citizen Strugeon’s garden.
Brown Sauce will no longer be allowed under stringent new laws regulating what you can have on your chips. Obviously Brown Sauce is racist and Tomato Sauce is being kept under close scrutiny in case Native American Indians start to feel uncomfortable. Most likely it will be banned. Better safe than sorry.

On a lighter note Citizen Sturgeon will be issuing permits for those showing the right kind of attitude allowing them to praise her magnificent handling of what is the greatest threat to humanity since the time the Wombles caught BSE from eating their own Brains and had to be burned on huge funeral pyres. Great Uncle Bulgaria is still at large. A reward of a state haircut for anyone giving information leading to his capture is being offered

more reports soon……

19302 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Biker, 5, #517 of 1297 🔗

State haircut, lol.

19517 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Julian, 1, #518 of 1297 🔗

Can I have a supreme leader back and sides please…?

19885 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to ianp, 1, #519 of 1297 🔗

I’ll have a chief of secret police crewcut …

19342 ▶▶ annie, replying to Biker, 4, #520 of 1297 🔗

Can’t come soon enough! There are people in Scotland trying to LIVE! They aren’t allowed to do more than exist!

Brilliant, keep it up.

19387 ▶▶ Barnabas, replying to Biker, 4, #521 of 1297 🔗


You and I were obviously brought up on the same diet of TV, Blue Peter, Roy Castle, etc.

Do you think that the Wombles will be declared as an underground , terrorist group next?

19481 ▶▶▶ paulito, replying to Barnabas, 2, #522 of 1297 🔗

Well, they did do their wombling free.

19309 Mark, replying to Mark, 15, #523 of 1297 🔗

This latest study is a disaster for rational responses to respiratory diseases.

Risk of infection could double if 2-metre rule reduced, study finds

The problem is that in identifying and quantifying (however spuriously and speculatively) the tiny increase in risk from closeness, it plays to the inherent irrationality in the current response to disease (see the essay “The Hyper-Rationality of Crowds: COVID-19 and the Cult of Anxiety” linked in the sidebar above) and allows people to insist that there is some degree of increased risk from reducing the distance.

The fact that it is a small increase in a tiny risk is irrelevant because the response is fundamentally irrational.

This study will cause real harm.

19321 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Mark, 3, #524 of 1297 🔗

a) It’s from the WHO via the Gauudian
b) It’s a highly conveniently timed meta-study
c) Predominately SARS/Mers rather than cv19
d) Prof Linda Bauld to be added to our lists

19331 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to JohnB, 2, #525 of 1297 🔗

Yes, all very valid points.

The problem is that we are not dealing with rationality here….

19333 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to JohnB, 5, #526 of 1297 🔗

She (L Bauld) is also involved in tobacco control. Once a reptile, always a reptile.

19343 ▶▶▶ Gillian, replying to JohnB, 5, #527 of 1297 🔗

Yon Linda Bauld is regularly on the telly, she’s a “go-to” talking heid for BBC Scoatland, always dispensing gloom and doom to the brainwashed populace up here. She must be solely responsible for at least 50% of the suicide rate up here since the CV19 panic started. Always appears with perfectly coiffeured hair, I wonder how that’s done. Have to stop myself smashing the screen every time. I’m sure she must have a hotline to Nickla to keep her up-to-date with every global doom-monger.

19329 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Mark, 5, #528 of 1297 🔗

“The Lancet’s meta-analysis of observational studies across Covid-19 but also – predominately – Sars and Mers, highlights the potential consequences of a change.”

“However, the modelling also suggested that for every extra metre further away up to 3 metres, the risk of infection or transmission may halve.”

My emphasis.

19381 ▶▶▶ Sarigan, replying to Nobody2020, 2, #529 of 1297 🔗

The researchers also wade into the debate about face masks. Based on evidence from 10 studies involving 2,647 participants, they found that the risk of infection or transmission when wearing a mask was 3% compared with 17% when not wearing a mask, although they said the level of certainty was “low”. Similar benefits were found, also with low certainty , concerning wearing of protective eye coverings such as face shields, goggles and glasses.

My emphasis.

19719 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Nobody2020, #530 of 1297 🔗

Yes, I’d spotted all the mights and perhapses. Unscrupulous use of stats, as per usual. Double what is already a low risk is still low.
The article resembles a colander full of red herrings.

Shameless fearmongering propaganda and an appalling piece of sloppy journalism (quite possibly intentionally sloppy!)

19330 ▶▶ James007, replying to Mark, 8, #531 of 1297 🔗

It would be nice if these articles cited the publications so you could go and examine what has actually been said.
I wish journalists would be more careful about percentages and deal with actual numbers. If you moved from 0.0001 to 0.0002, that’s a 100% increase, which looks absolutely terrifying if it’s something bad. The costs of keeping whatever it is to 0.0001 may be immense

19480 ▶▶▶ paulito, replying to James007, 5, #532 of 1297 🔗

Relative risk Vs. absolute risk. This is an old trick used by Pharma in reporting results of clinical trials.

19622 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Mark, 1, #533 of 1297 🔗

Sweden has used one metre and now even Neil Ferguson admits they have done well!

19625 ▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Mark, 1, #534 of 1297 🔗

Linda Bauld links to Edinburgh University which has links to? Guessed it – Bill Gates yet again. Nearly $750000 given to them in2013 for Purpose: to improve current global estimates of morbidity and mortality due to RSV–associated acute lower respiratory infections in young children

19644 ▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Mark, 1, #535 of 1297 🔗

Good old Graun, keep the fear-porn going and keep collecting the Government-Media partnership fees! Anyway, for anyone, like me who missed the ‘Cult of Anxiety’ article in the sidebar I can thoroughly recommend it. The Old Man and I have been trying to explain the all-pervasive ‘Coronaphobia’ to ourselves and arguing about how best to try and reason with people who we know (nearly everyone, sadly) who is suffering from it.

‘Wilfred Thomas’ doesn’t offer any answers to that but his explanation of hyper-rationality is spot-on. His example: ‘People who are hyper-rational, [ ] just can’t let go of that slim statistical chance that they might be the one tragic case to die or suffer from X. They could be the special one. Their child could be the special one. Someone they know from down the road could be the special one. To them, this uncertainty – this sense that something might happen that they can’t control – is unbearable…’ fits several people we know.

What I don’t understand is how the O.M. and I missed out on it!! Anyway, many thanks, Mark for reminding us the article is on the site; I’d have been sorry to miss it.

19647 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, #536 of 1297 🔗

You’re very welcome, Miriam. It’s a great article and as you say quite useful in an explanatory sense.

19653 ▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Mark, #537 of 1297 🔗

We’re working on how to share it without making things worse! 🙂

20068 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, #538 of 1297 🔗

These will be the same people who play the lottery believing that it could be them.

Try telling them that this virus is like playing the lottery but the difference is that most people playing the virus lottery are actually winners.

19311 mark baker, replying to mark baker, 5, #539 of 1297 🔗

Ferguson being questioned by some Lords sub-committee. Looked at the transcripts – made me furious – powder-puff questioning. God, I’d like to grill him properly, the smug little get!

19411 ▶▶ coalencanth12, replying to mark baker, 1, #540 of 1297 🔗

Did I read correctly the False Prophet himself has admitted he can’t explain Sweden?

19416 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to coalencanth12, #541 of 1297 🔗

Where did you see that?

19448 ▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Nobody2020, #543 of 1297 🔗


19320 Sheltielass, replying to Sheltielass, 11, #544 of 1297 🔗

I’ve been thinking about this “new normal” that is getting banded about everywhere. I am a shift manager at an international fast food restaurant. We are re opening shortly. The last two weeks I have inundated with zoom meetings and emails describing what new procedures we have to go through before we even arrive at work. We will have limited menu and a limit on the amount on people can order so that we can operate with skeleton staff.

Whilst most of us are happy to be back to work and are willing to have our temperature checked everyday and wear a mask, I’m not sure the shareholders will be happy about their lack of bonuses and dividends coming their way.

Whether you agree with it or not our company works by making as much money as possible with as little effort and cost to them as possible. Whilst the company I work for and many other national or international companies are happy at the moment to open reduced hours, limited menus etc. They won’t be happy for it to carry on for much longer. The shareholders will be getting the jitters, as they will have already eyed up their next holiday home in the Carribbean that they are wanting to purchase. I’m hoping they will be lobbying the government (both Westminster and Scottish) that this “new normal” won’t be normal for too long.

19325 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Sheltielass, 15, #545 of 1297 🔗

Business leaders have in general been wishywashy in their public response, probably for fear of being shamed on social media and the the TV and press. I hope in private they are screaming at the government to stop this madness.

19764 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Julian, 1, #546 of 1297 🔗

Ditto with TPTB in the museums and heritage sector as well as arts and culture. As we stated above, the possiblity as to why they are silent is because of the fear of the media mob.

It’s harder with businesses because they will be tarred with the simplistic “people before profit” trope.

19326 LuluJo, replying to LuluJo, 27, #547 of 1297 🔗

Anybody else enjoying scraping and scuffing their feet whilst placed on one of those ridiculous ‘stand here’ spots? I was thinking today about how their gluey impressions will remain on shop floors for years to come and children will ask ‘nanny what’s that spot on the floor?’ and I’ll say ‘that my dear is where your liberty and freedom were lost. Not on a battleground but on a supermarket floor.’

19515 ▶▶ ianp, replying to LuluJo, 7, #548 of 1297 🔗

Remember to whack the perspex screens with your basket every time too… by accident of course

19707 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to ianp, #549 of 1297 🔗

I’ve done that and I don’t bother with those spots on the floor.

20038 ▶▶ A HUG IS HEALTH, replying to LuluJo, #550 of 1297 🔗

I just creep further forward all he time and totally ignore the arrows.

19327 Snake Oil Pussy, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, 10, #551 of 1297 🔗

I’ve just had this explanation from one of the Royal Parks engineers for high water consumption at St James’s Park:-
“Correction, it is irrigation. We have a sprinkler running overnight, as the shrubbery has been used as a toilet, and we are flushing it out.”
Can anyone advise on what bacterial infections could have been spread as a result of public toilets being closed, whether they are more dangerous than Covid-19?

19334 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, 10, #552 of 1297 🔗

My house backs onto a city park, and there has certainly been an increase in people using the bushes as a toilet, presumably because the public toilets are closed.

It was always an occasional issue when rough sleepers used the park overnight, but it’s much more evident now. Pretty unpleasant tbh, with toilet paper and old tampons littered around the paths in some places.

Yet another cost of lockdown that the advocates of this insanity will just brush off as “necessary” collateral damage..

20023 ▶▶▶ A HUG IS HEALTH, replying to Mark, #553 of 1297 🔗

Insanity and insanitary.

19344 ▶▶ ambwozere, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, 5, #554 of 1297 🔗

According to the Internet possible diseases could include hepatitis a, cholera, typhoid, salmonella, e coli, norovirus etc etc etc

19439 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, 2, #555 of 1297 🔗

There’s a sign in a housing area near the tube station where I live that waste from dogs can cause the plants to die. I believe the same is true with human waste which can lead to hepatitis A, cholera (possible rerun of the Great Stink of the 1850s) among others.

19341 Nobody2020, replying to Nobody2020, 1, #556 of 1297 🔗

I’ve been watching with interest the protests/riots in the USA. It made me think of events such as the Arab Spring where MSM reported it as people rising up against oppression and it was our duty to encourage people to fight for freedom. After all, democracy is the epitome of all political systems, isn’t it?

Now the rioting may not be directly linked to oppression, but it does beg the question what is it when people rise up against oppression in a democracy? It can’t be because they are demanding something better because there is nothing better than democracy, is there?

19362 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Nobody2020, 1, #557 of 1297 🔗

It’s perhaps an interesting theoretical issue to discuss, but as far as any applicability to current events is concerned, I would have thought anyone who has been enlightened as to how modern mass and social media works by watching the coronapanic unfold would know not to take the “x spring” bollocks seriously.

Unrest in a country is generally termed a “spring” in that country when there is an agenda to be furthered by encouraging that unrest. Whether there is any objective merit in the unrest in question is absolutely a secondary consideration.

19504 ▶▶ ianp, replying to Nobody2020, 3, #558 of 1297 🔗

Do not confuse the riots in the USA with anti lockdown. I would hope that most people could see through that, it’s a push for a Marxist agenda, pure and simple and takes the focus away from ending lockdown and the misery it has caused

19351 hotrod, replying to hotrod, 6, #559 of 1297 🔗

As the picture in Europe is still looking positive and the lifting of restrictions hasn’t caused significant issues, then surely we will be the same in 2-3 weeks? Including restaurants etc.

How would our government explain any gap in approach should the UK government say otherwise?

19364 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to hotrod, 8, #560 of 1297 🔗

They wouldn’t have to explain it: most of the public are so pathetic, scared, short-sighted, the government can carry on covering their own a*ses indefinitely. So at the public enquiry they’ll be able to show just how hard they kicked that virus’s butt, and how they were responding to public pressure. All democratic, like.

19365 ▶▶ Julian, replying to hotrod, 1, #561 of 1297 🔗

It’s hard to see how they’ll get out of that one, though it will rely in part on this being pointed out by the media as a lot of the public seem profoundly uncurious as to what is happening elsewhere, or indeed here.

With a little luck, most/all places will reopen in the next couple of months. I think people who can work from home will still be strongly encouraged to do so, for a long time to come, to keep pressure off public transport, especially in London. Also hard to see how things like music festivals or mass spectator sport could work, though perhaps all-seat venues could be allowed to fill every fourth seat.

And hopefully people will be allowed to shag again.

HOWEVER we will have enforced social distancing and covid-safety madness everywhere and it will screw everything up.

I am not clear on the extent to which the covid-safety business is being imposed in Europe or elsewhere, but there is definitely some of it going on.

19371 ▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Julian, 1, #562 of 1297 🔗

It seems fascinating to me that there must be many warriors against the virus who support the lockdown but who were caught ‘single’ when the shutters came down. Needless to say, they’re not going to be very attractive people, but are they not even slightly frustrated at their enforced celibacy?

19415 ▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Barney McGrew, 3, #563 of 1297 🔗

Well I think there would be plenty who simply break the rules, and others for whom the fear or belief in following the rules is greater than other urges, though you wonder how long they would hold out.

19417 ▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Barney McGrew, 8, #564 of 1297 🔗

The lockdown won’t apply to them. You’re forgetting that the cardinal tenet of leftism is hypocrisy.

19427 ▶▶▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to guy153, 5, #565 of 1297 🔗

Please be careful with your generalisations. I have ‘leftist’ tendencies as far as some policy making is concerned and I am neither a hypocrite nor do I support lockdown in any respect, as is pretty obvious, me being here and all that

19447 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 3, #566 of 1297 🔗

So do I, but I’m willing to acknowledge that a good majority of today’s ‘lefties’ (once again, ” because I don’t believe they’re real lefties) are massive hypocrites.

19476 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Farinances, 2, #567 of 1297 🔗

Don’t think it’s a left-right issue. Do as I say, don’t do as I do, is the maxim of governments and power brokers everywhere and at all times.

19521 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to annie, #568 of 1297 🔗

It’s not a left-right issue until people make it one.

Sadly, people (generally on the ‘left’) are making it one.

19640 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 2, #569 of 1297 🔗

No offence intended 🙂 If it’s any consolation I’m equally rude about the right.

19358 Awkward Git, #570 of 1297 🔗

Apologies to all for going off topic (unless you believe everything about the lockdown is interconnected with what is happening worldwide and the lockdown is not an isolated event) but not seen Anonymous today or have I just not seen his posts?

Got sent this link from a 2015 interview that he would have found interesting given his views.


19360 Crash Centre, 2, #571 of 1297 🔗

Can we get a letter template for demanding an immediate end to lockdown for our MPs/MSM so we can speed up the end of this & save lives & the economy ?

19366 Under The Bridge, replying to Under The Bridge, #572 of 1297 🔗

Stop Press: The WHO has changed its mind about wearing masks and now recommends against dong so. Let’s hope it doesn’t post its new guidance on YouTube because the company may be forced to remove it on the grounds that it contravenes the recommendations of… the WHO.”

Once again, we have a comment that alleges a change in WHO policy, while inferring that this change is recent. The norm in this column is to provide links to corroborate the stories, especially when an item is current news, but again, there is no link.

19389 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Under The Bridge, #573 of 1297 🔗

It is a change in WHO policy, widely reported.

19392 ▶▶▶ Under The Bridge, replying to BecJT, -1, #574 of 1297 🔗

If that were the case, it would be very simple to include a link . . . for Toby, and for you.

19433 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Under The Bridge, 3, #575 of 1297 🔗

It would also be exceptionally easy for you to Google it as I just did. (Also the word ‘pilkunnussija’ when you get the chance).
It’s from this briefing yesterday https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1267477040107671553
Nobody is ‘quoting’ directly because nobody has transcribed it, apparently.

19619 ▶▶▶▶▶ Chris John, replying to Farinances, #576 of 1297 🔗

Applause on the broadening of ones vocabulary, have an uptick!

19825 ▶▶▶▶▶ Under The Bridge, replying to Farinances, #577 of 1297 🔗

I don’t see tweets in my search results, thankfully. But again: this site is very liberal with its links. A link to this tweet or an explanation would have been in keeping with the way the rest of the information is presented on this page, particularly when readers here are more than likely using the information learned to spread the word of what’s really going on.

19373 Nobody2020, replying to Nobody2020, #578 of 1297 🔗


“Historically, it’s not been that easy to produce vaccines for diseases – and this is a disease where the immunology seems to be quite complicated,” he said. “That’s usually not a good sign that the vaccine will work very well.”

He said countries should instead embrace sustainable, long-term measures designed to reduce transmission, because the virus “will stay with us for a substantial time, probably forever”.

I think it’s fair to assume social distancing could be with us for a while.

19378 ▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Nobody2020, 8, #579 of 1297 🔗

Only if we agree to it!

19390 ▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Nobody2020, 16, #580 of 1297 🔗

No-one seems to be mentioning that the ‘viral load’ is crucial in all of this and I have only seen one article – one – where a doctor in Lombardy (worst hit region in Italy I believe) says that there the viral load is virtually zero. So this bollocks about social distancing is pure propaganda. An exercise in social control – pure and simple – and the great British Public are making sure it works.

19470 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 8, #581 of 1297 🔗

Unfortunately it seems that the objective of flattening the curve is morphing into nobody needs to die from this virus just because other countries managed to get a low death count.

It’s easy to see how The Spanish Inquisition and Salem Witch Trials happened. We may be more technologically advanced today but our brains don’t seem to have matured over time.

19413 ▶▶ guy153, replying to Nobody2020, 5, #582 of 1297 🔗

We don’t need social distancing or a vaccine. I won’t be taking it myself, and will vigorously oppose any attempt to make it compulsory, but I think the ChAdOx1 vaccine will actually probably work quite well. It doesn’t really matter if it does or not– if they get it through the trials, it doesn’t do too much harm, and they start shoving it in people’s arms then it will be an excuse for everyone to calm down.

History of vaccine development in general is not necessarily a good predictor as this is a new design of vaccine. The MERS version of it is already in human trials (I think they started in December 2019) and that’s a very similar virus and a very similar vaccine.

19388 Sarigan, replying to Sarigan, 3, #583 of 1297 🔗

Flying sounds like it will be fun:


New guidance issued by the International Civil Aviation Organisation says passengers should have restricted access to toilets as airlines start to relaunch flights.

19399 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Sarigan, 14, #584 of 1297 🔗

What is the obsession with toilets?

Surely, people wash their hands LESS when they’re not regularly going for a widdle? Funny how they were obsessed with hand washing a few weeks ago (possibly the only bit of valuable advice we’ve received) and now they’re denying people facilities which enable them to wash their hands.

19402 ▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to Farinances, 8, #585 of 1297 🔗

Again, just evidence that these twats want to be seen to be ‘doing something’ when the advice is actually contradictory and goes against common sense.

19410 ▶▶▶▶ coalencanth12, replying to Poppy, 7, #586 of 1297 🔗

I was very glad to find the lavvies in Oxford station very much open and stocked with soap over the weekend…

19431 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to Farinances, 1, #587 of 1297 🔗

Mind you, sinks on all the planes that I have flown on are close to useless for significant hand-washing!

19394 Scott, replying to Scott, #588 of 1297 🔗

Read Toby’s comment on WHO advising not to wear masks. Was looking online but nothing could I find. Can anyone point me in the right direction to view this online?


19428 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Scott, #589 of 1297 🔗

It was taken from this briefing yesterday
Which apparently nobody seems to have properly transcribed despite reporting on extensively (NB: I haven’t listened personally but this is the briefing everyone links to when quoting the ‘WHO flips on masks’ line)

19468 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to arfurmo, 1, #591 of 1297 🔗

Aaaah ok cool. You know what. I bet this ‘official advice’ on the website has never actually changed the whole time, and they’ve just been giving mixed verbal signals in briefings, flip-flop-flip-flop-flip-flop

19398 Nigel Baldwin, 5, #592 of 1297 🔗

Only briefing on CV19 you ever need to see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYUMQL5ABPw&feature=youtu.be

19420 matt, replying to matt, 25, #593 of 1297 🔗

(First time post, so sorry to jump in to a conversation unannounced)

First of all, the introduction of this law is a deliberate strategy to make it easier to persuade the public that they should be able to come a little further out from their house arrest. Apparently, the thinking is that people got far too comfortable with the way the original rules said “you can do nothing except this small handful of things” and so it would be easier to relax things if the rules said “here is a definitive list of the things you can’t do.”

Of course, it probably would have been better if the government hadn’t run such an effective campaign of terrorizing the public into submission in the first place, or if they hadn’t set things up in so that everyone had their power to make decisions for themselves taken away from them (and most apparently found they liked it), or they hadn’t designed a world where there was no longer any need to make any of the hundreds of assessments of personal risk that are part of normal everyday life for human beings, but that ship sailed ten weeks ago.

The other thing to say, though, is that enforceability is exactly not the point. Great that the police can’t come bursting into our bedrooms (yet) if we’re shagging someone who doesn’t live with us, but this strikes at the very core of being a human being. The drive to procreate and to be intimate with other people is absolutely fundamental. To legislate very specifically to say that one adult can’t enter, invited, into the house of another in order to have consensual sex is staggering. It’s hard to imagine a greater assault on our freedoms. And it’s almost impossible to imagine that any British government (except perhaps Oliver Cromwell) could possibly have considered it and even harder to believe that most of the population seems prepared to accept it.

I’m about to lose friends over this, I think. The fact that people whose intelligence I used to respect see this as an excuse to make jokes along the lines of “how’s Boris going to get up to his usual tricks now?” instead of being spittle-flecked with rage, leaves me… well… even more spittle-flecked with rage.

Where is the press? Where is the opposition? Where are any of the usual checks that should be stopping the government from getting away with this utterly unacceptable overreach of their authority?

19522 ▶▶ matt, replying to matt, 1, #594 of 1297 🔗

This was supposed to be a reply to another post above on the new “anti-sex law”. It got orphaned somehow and probably make less sense now. There’s another one of those around somewhere, I think.

19615 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to matt, 4, #595 of 1297 🔗

It is as you say an assault on our basic freedoms and turns on its head the whole foundation of UK law…In contrast to most European countries, where the people can only do what is *specifically allowed* according to their law, we have always been free to do *anything* UNLESS specifically prohibited by law.. But no longer…

19421 Mark, replying to Mark, 10, #596 of 1297 🔗

Outright, shameless media and government dishonesty? (Whodathunk, eh?)

The garden police! Officers in England can now order people to leave a friend’s backyard if they are breaching lockdown rules – as government bans paddling pools and having sex with someone from another house
This purports to be the Mail’s interpretation of the new dictats that apply to us (in England) from yesterday. The report clearly states in several places that we are “required” to stay 2m apart.

Buried in the middle of the piece is a reference to the police “previously” having admitted they have no power to enforce this, but it appears the Mail,wants to leave the opportunity for people to assume that this inability to enforce does not still apply.

Unless there are regulations of which I am unaware, there appears still to be no basis for enforcing this 2m rule in the general social activity they are discussing. So I have to assume that the Mail (like the government) is intentionally seeking to mislead people into believing that they are forbidden by law from getting closer than 2m from each other.

Obviously it’s too much to hope for that anyone at the Mail would feel in the slightest ashamed of this open dishonesty and deception. After all, it’s for the Greater Good. What else are journalists and journalism for, if it’s not to encourage people to obey authority, by any means possible?

19492 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Mark, 4, #597 of 1297 🔗

There’s no mention of social distancing or 2 metres in the Coronavirus Act. It’s not the law. It will be “enforced” as a series of Health & Safety rules governing businesses and other establishments etc etc.

The media keep doing this.

There was a story in the BBC about people who had been asked to shield at home being “allowed out” now. There was never a law about this – it was just advice. I wrote to the BBC about this, waiting a reply.

19496 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Julian, 3, #598 of 1297 🔗

Yes, I think I remember you suggesting writing to the BBC about this point a week or two ago. You’re right to do so, and I should as well, but I gave up on the BBC in exasperation years ago.

The media keep doing this .”

Indeed. Clearly no accident or oversight.

Likewise the government make no effort to distinguish between advice and laws, and in fact appear to intentionally try to confuse the two..

19610 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Mark, 2, #599 of 1297 🔗

paddling pools???? Despite the low risk of children being infected and especially outside?

19882 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Carrie, #600 of 1297 🔗

You don’t get it, m’dear. Children ENJOY paddling pools.
Can’t be having that.

19434 RDawg, replying to RDawg, 25, #601 of 1297 🔗

I’m not sure if I dare watch the Dispatches programme on Channel 4, this Wednesday evening.

We know it will be highly critical of the government’s response to Covid-19, but I suspect for all the wrong reasons. My guess is they will say the following:

– The government should have locked down earlier, most likely 1st March.
– The government should have used track and trace like they did in South Korea.
– The government should have stopped inbound flights from certain “high risk” countries, especially China.
– Airports should have been screening passengers on arrival, but didn’t.

But I have a feeling they won’t talk about the any of the REAL issues of lockdown, specifically:

– The colossal and completely unnecessary economic damage.
– The non Covid-related deaths I.E. the suicides, the withdrawn cancer screenings and treatments, the two million cancelled operations, those panicked into not attending A&E for serious conditions such as heart attacks, strokes and other life-threatening illnesses.
– The scandal of discharging elderly patients into care homes without testing them for Covid-19. Refusing to accept the elderly into hospital for treatment unless they met a specific threshold.
– The scandal of adding Covid-19 onto death certificates without testing. Adding Covid-19 when it was clearly NOT the cause of death.
– The government’s ignoring of SAGE advice NOT to lock down.
– The SAGE minutes which recommended tactics of psychological manipulation to ensure forced compliance from the general public.
– The passing of draconian laws which faced no parliamentary scrutiny.
– The suspension of people’s liberty, forced closure of businesses, forced home imprisonment.
– The forced closure of schools and huge educational cost to children.

I guess we shall see tomorrow night at 9pm…

19436 ▶▶ IanE, replying to RDawg, 5, #602 of 1297 🔗

Yes – I think your summary saves me from wondering if I should have bothered!

19440 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to RDawg, 9, #603 of 1297 🔗

Don’t do it, it will make your head hurt and delete your energy reserves.

19442 ▶▶ matt, replying to RDawg, 13, #604 of 1297 🔗

I’ve just been speaking with my mother this morning (a GP, just shy of 70, who never got round to retiring). One thing she told me that I hadn’t realised – if a patient dies and they have previously tested positive for Covid, the current rules GPs have been given say that you _have_ to put Covid on the death certificate. Even if the patient actually died of something else and you know it. Even if they have recovered from Covid and then died of something completely unrelated, weeks later. So this isn’t laziness on the part of the medics (to be honest, I’d assumed that was exactly what it was) or individual doctors trying to skew the numbers to exaggerate “the crisis” (though I’m sure some of them are delighted to be able to do that as well). This is policy.

19518 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to matt, 12, #605 of 1297 🔗

Absolutely disgusting.

1) “Protect the NHS” from the patients who paid for it by ejecting actual covid patients out into environments where they will spread it amongst more vulnerable people. But as long as they’re not in hospitals, that’s great!
2) “Protect the NHS” from the patients who paid for it by cancelling all other treatments, so it becomes the NCS rather than the NHS.
3) Justify all this “protecting of the NHS” at the expense of its patients by fraudulently inflating the covid death rate using various nefarious practices.
4) Codify the “protecting of the NHS” further and further into law using diktats passed quickly and with no accountability, henceforth stripping every citizen in the land of their basic rights and freedoms in its name.

19514 ▶▶ Paul, replying to RDawg, 4, #606 of 1297 🔗

I think you are spot on RDawg,no-one in media or government wants to deal with the real issues.I’d better not watch,I can’t afford a new TV just now !.

19605 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to RDawg, #607 of 1297 🔗

…plus the new ‘night curfew’ for the purposes of track & trace…

19435 Sarigan, replying to Sarigan, 2, #608 of 1297 🔗

More from my world of travel:

UK travel businesses expect to make up to 60% of staff redundant if quarantine measures are introduced next Monday.


I will try a number to that but it will be high

Half of those who responded said they expected future bookings to fall by 80-100%, while 71% said they expected to make “almost two-thirds” of staff redundant. Another 28% said they may cease trading altogether.

19446 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Sarigan, 6, #609 of 1297 🔗

This is sad. It’s just sad. WTF ARE THEY DOING TO OUR COUNTRY

19562 ▶▶▶ Moomin, replying to Farinances, #610 of 1297 🔗

Saving lives. Oh, wait…

19461 ▶▶ karate56, replying to Sarigan, 13, #611 of 1297 🔗

If there was any sanity, the government would cave on this. If they don’t, then the conclusion is that all other business are fucked – hospitality, entertainment, etc. If they can destroy tourism, they will have no qualms about the rest. I predict a riot over the next few months, especially when those furlough payment cease.

19473 ▶▶ Margaret, replying to Sarigan, 7, #612 of 1297 🔗

P and O have just informed us they are cancelling all cruises until October 15th. We were due to go in September and have paid in full but if we want our money back they have said it will take up to 60 days! They are prepared to offer us 125% towards the value of another cruise next year but having read the proposals for flying with everyone muzzled, we really don’t fancy it.

19497 ▶▶▶ Sarigan, replying to Margaret, 2, #613 of 1297 🔗

I don’t blame you. If anything they are suggesting as measures on aircraft and in airports come to light, it will be a most unpleasant experience.

On the refund side of things, you may get it sooner if the staff numbers go up now businesses are starting to reopen (if they still have jobs that it). TUI are currently receiving 1 million calls a day on a skeleton staff. I don’t work for TUI but run a small travel agency. We are running backwards as each cancellation is refunded. It is kind of like a coffee shop having to refund every coffee they sold over the past 12 months.

You will get your money back and by law, it should have been within 14 days as per the Package Travel Directive. That directive however, did not account for the collective madness and shut down of the world and refunds in that timescale are impossible given the volumes even with full staff levels.

19503 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Sarigan, 2, #614 of 1297 🔗

Interested whether you think companies like P&O will survive, if they emerge from this panic into a world of significantly reduced ongoing business for years to come? I suppose the financially strongest will continue, but there must surely be a big shake-up coming.

19575 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Margaret, #615 of 1297 🔗

Personally I’d hold off from booking a holiday until after winter. If the virus doesn’t come back in full force then it will be a good sign that things could go back to normal.

If the virus comes back then at least we’ll see how countries respond.

19602 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Nobody2020, #616 of 1297 🔗

Will depend for me on whether an ‘immunity passport’ is required for travel..

19604 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Margaret, 1, #617 of 1297 🔗

How does any travel fit in with the new law forbidding people to sleep anywhere other than their home?

19879 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Margaret, 1, #618 of 1297 🔗

Cardiff airport (I flew from there a couple of times) just sent me a questionnaire asking me what measures would make me feel ‘safe’ as a air passenger.
I ticked ‘not at all important’ for all of them and, in the comments space, told them to ditch all that shit and get back to normal.
Expect I’m in the minority among the bedwetters, but at least there’s me.
And you, too, maybe?

20320 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to annie, #619 of 1297 🔗

At least they asked you and you were able to express your disdain for the idiocy!

19449 kh1485, 17, #620 of 1297 🔗

Some good news: UK weekend briefings to stop …

19451 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 6, #621 of 1297 🔗

At least interesting now coming into MSM. 20% of infected are behind 80% of infections. Perhaps this new fixation on super spreaders can get us out from lockdown with a fig leaf for UK gov.
In the first twitter is mentioning an opinion piece in New York Times from a Professor in Hong Kong that you should only concentrate all efforts on super spreaders. Unfortunately, the article is behind paywall but the essence is in the twitter. The second link is Prof Heneghan EBM Oxford in an interview about possibility of second wave also high-lightning the importance of super spreaders. The interview is quite good considering it happened in MSM

19467 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to swedenborg, 4, #622 of 1297 🔗

But how the hell do you identify a super spreader until after the fact?

I don’t like this angle even if it’s founded in reality. I foresee gangs of masked cretins running after people without masks screaming “KILL THE SUPER SPREADEERRRRRRRRRS!!”

19460 matt, 2, #623 of 1297 🔗

But… that’s how I know when to start drinking on a Saturday!

19471 arfurmo, replying to arfurmo, 13, #624 of 1297 🔗

From the Telegraph “Lockdown measures will be reviewed every four weeks – instead of every three – under new Government plans.
Health Secretary Matt Hancock, in a written ministerial statement, said the maximum review period will change from 21 days to 28 days.
“This will allow decisions to align more closely with the period of time necessary to assess the impact of previous changes on key data feeds, including the R (infection) rate.
“The Government will also keep all the measures under continual review and will account to Parliament on an ongoing basis.”
So that’s another week of misery

19475 ▶▶ SRagdoll, replying to arfurmo, 11, #625 of 1297 🔗

I read this and just thought FML! They should be reviewing the data more often. 3 weeks was bad enough.

19508 ▶▶ Cbird, replying to arfurmo, 4, #626 of 1297 🔗

“will account to Parliament on an ongoing basis”. Well that’s a first.

Interesting though, it does say the “maximum review period” will change. And “The Government will also keep all the measures under continual review…”. Put together it’s not clear what all this means, but could it be that it’s not really a tightening of the measures at all?

Clutching at straws probably, but straws is all we’ve got atm

19527 ▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to arfurmo, 4, #627 of 1297 🔗

AQs Dr. John Lee says https://delingpole.podbean.com/e/dr-john-lee/ the R rate is just another form of modelling and means diddly squat

19528 ▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Nigel Baldwin, #628 of 1297 🔗

As not AQs

19472 Poppy, replying to Poppy, 16, #629 of 1297 🔗


Even Ferguson himself backs the Swedish approach now and has all but admitted that the UK lockdown, for which he was partly responsible, was not even necessary.

19478 ▶▶ RDawg, replying to Poppy, 20, #630 of 1297 🔗

What I’d give to see the headline “UK Lockdown Completely Unnecessary” with the sub-heading “And So is Social Distancing” across every MSM newspaper. I think I’d cry with relief.

Here’s hoping eh?

19544 ▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to RDawg, 3, #631 of 1297 🔗

Listen to John Lee. he gives social distancing what for. https://delingpole.podbean.com/e/dr-john-lee/

19561 ▶▶▶ Moomin, replying to RDawg, #632 of 1297 🔗

Me too!

19691 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to RDawg, #633 of 1297 🔗

It will come.
And a lot of people, starting with Pantsdown, will smirk and say they were right all along and never intended there to be any lockdown and it wasn’t their fault and when do they get knighted for services to economic Armageddon?

19499 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Poppy, 5, #634 of 1297 🔗

Trouble is, he bloody resigned, so now the meedja will be all like ‘discredited SAGE advisor talks crap about Sweden’.
They’re only half right of course, but funny how he wasn’t ‘discredited’ until he boffed his non-missus during lockdown. He’s ‘discredited’ because he broke the lockdown, not because the lockdown is total bullshit.

19516 ▶▶ Old Bill, replying to Poppy, 4, #635 of 1297 🔗

Now Ferguson has resigned he is free to say what he actually means and not what his paymasters tell him to say.

The scientists that predict that man made global warming will destroy the earth work on the same principle – try producing a report that says climate change is a natural event and not man made and see how much funding you get for your research.

19551 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Poppy, 2, #636 of 1297 🔗

“The scientist behind the coronavirus lockdown in the UK has admitted that Sweden has achieved roughly the same suppression of the virus without draconian restrictions.”

Why was this not noticed this before now? Oh wait…

19559 ▶▶ Moomin, replying to Poppy, 1, #637 of 1297 🔗

Hold the phone! This is MASSIVE! This should be front page news! Stop this nonsense immediately.

19597 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Poppy, #638 of 1297 🔗

Note that the DT are not allowing comments on this article..grrrr

19608 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Poppy, 2, #639 of 1297 🔗

To be fair to him, he never actually recommended lockdown – well, not officially anyway. Never even mentioned it in the dodgy dossier in fact.
He got his figures ridiculously wrong – but when has he ever not got his figures ridiculously wrong?
The government took it upon themselves to panic buy us into ruination anyway (when they allowed the media, China, Italy, and sadly the public to lead them by the nose).

19474 Victoria, replying to Victoria, 21, #640 of 1297 🔗

Earlier saw a young man in the supermarket with a mask and gloves. Asked him if he was sick. No, his mother told him to wear the gloves and mask. Advised him that he should rather work on a healthy immune system and topping up his vitamin D levels.

19556 ▶▶ Moomin, replying to Victoria, #641 of 1297 🔗

What did he say?

19588 ▶▶▶ Victoria, replying to Moomin, #642 of 1297 🔗

Said his mother told him to wear the gloves and mask

20325 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Victoria, #643 of 1297 🔗


19479 Farinances, replying to Farinances, 3, #644 of 1297 🔗

One of my favourite US commentators is right on the money:
Sweden is a success!

19483 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Farinances, 2, #645 of 1297 🔗

Well, not *right on the money. “It’s obvious if you shelter in place you’re gonna see less deaths”.
No Kim, it isn’t. But you’re nearly right, so go you.

20056 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Farinances, 1, #646 of 1297 🔗

Maybe she’s been lurking on this site.

19489 Barnabas, replying to Barnabas, 38, #647 of 1297 🔗

“Lockdown rules to be reviewed every four weeks, not three, reveals Matt Hancock”


The government needs to be reviewing these rules on an increased frequency now e.g. every week. They should be looking for an opportunity to relax rules wherever possible.

What happened to the Conservative Party that believed in deregulation, business and free enterprise?

This hopeless cabinet are simply not fit for purpose.

19493 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Barnabas, 19, #648 of 1297 🔗

The Guilty Men.

Never forget. Never forgive.

19506 ▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Mark, 9, #649 of 1297 🔗

I’m never voting again, except maybe for Toby’s party.

19513 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Barney McGrew, 5, #650 of 1297 🔗

Probably the only legitimate approach, short of a massive upset within the political class.

19523 ▶▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Mark, 5, #651 of 1297 🔗

Yes, either voting for some promising fringe party or not voting again. Can’t see the massive clearout that would be needed to sanitise any of the major parties happening.

19545 ▶▶▶▶ Invunche, replying to Barney McGrew, 3, #652 of 1297 🔗

Labour have had an open goal through this fiasco. But rather than score they’ve somehow contrived to kick themselves in the testicles instead by going along unquestioningly with lockdown.

Still. Could be worse.

If Great Leader Jezza had won the election he would have just about finished “reviewing the evidence” by now…
And be ready to lock us down for 50 years of marshall law.

19553 ▶▶▶▶▶ Moomin, replying to Invunche, 11, #653 of 1297 🔗

You’re not wrong there! I’ve even written to Keir Starmer spelling out the questions he should be asking. My intention wasn’t for them to ‘bring down’ the government, but if ever there was an opportunity to totally undermine the Johnson then this was it and they’ve missed it completely. Totally disillusioned with politics, an opposition that poses no opposition and no threat whatsoever and most MPs are blind to what this government is inflicting on society. There has never, ever been a worse policy decision than this, it’s the worst political decision in history, and none of the MSM or politicians can see it. A blurry veil is covering their eyes and I have no idea how it will lift!

19617 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Moomin, 3, #654 of 1297 🔗

Totally vindicated my abandonment of the Labour party.
Not that I can call it that cause they abandoned me before I was even born.

19824 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Farinances, #655 of 1297 🔗

Be very wary of the labour loons. There are plenty of guilty fucks in this mess but I have spotted time and again their support and demand for harder harsher lockdown. Fuck them completely, they’re worse than the government… If that is at all possible.

The final smoking gun straw was smarmy starmer’s super quick tweet to support the BLM protests at the weekend. Vile Hypocrites.

The Labour party I have previously voted for have gone, and they are much more dangerous than Boris and any of his clowns

20328 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Moomin, #656 of 1297 🔗

Clearly Starmer has ignored your letter.

19512 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Mark, 10, #657 of 1297 🔗

I keep saying that, and I mean it. I will never forget or forgive those responsible for this lockdown, just as I never forgave Blair for the war in Iraq or Cameron for the war in Libya. I will hold them personally responsible, fwiw, for the rest of my and their lives.

The experienced cynic in me. however, recalls that Blair was re-elected in 2005, and expects that quite a few even amongst the people posting here will have “moved on” in a couple of years’ time and be supporting someone like Johnson, Gove, Raab or Patel because they are preferred on some other issue that seems important down the line, just as so many tried to protect Cummings because they either liked his other politics or disliked those attacking him.

In the real world things are messy and complicated of course. What happens if a Labour Party led by the contemptible Blairite snake Starmer is up against a “Conservative” Party led by Guilty Man Sunak? Starmer of course is only not a Guilty Man because he happened not to be in power at the time, and who knows what Sunak’s real thoughts are on the issue.

20317 ▶▶▶▶ Sue D, replying to Mark, 1, #658 of 1297 🔗

Unfortunately people are conned at every GE by a party’s manifesto and promises – which never, ever materialise.

19685 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Mark, 2, #659 of 1297 🔗

I won’t. And I won’t.

19534 ▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Barnabas, 8, #660 of 1297 🔗

Now I’m beginning to blow my top. Either these politicians are so stupid that it is beyond credibility (I’m a storyteller and if I wrote characters like this no-one would believe them) or something much more sinister is going on. I’m racking my brains for another explanation but come up short. Anyone else got a theory?

19543 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 4, #661 of 1297 🔗

My theory is that they are in fact functionally so stupid it appears to be beyond credibility. Strange, but true…

Fear makes people act stupidly, and intelligence is no defence once fear has taken hold. whether it’s fear of death or fear of blame.

19552 ▶▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Mark, 5, #662 of 1297 🔗

There is an interesting body of literature in business and management that relates to this. The term ‘functional stupidity’ was coined by two academics, one of whom – Andre Spicer – is based at City University Business School. Well worth a read – ‘A Stupidity-Based Theory of Organizations’ in Journal of Management Studies (2012)

19558 ▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 3, #663 of 1297 🔗

They display that disastrous combination of arrogance and ignorance. They are now in full cover-up mode, which is why it stretches credibility – exemplified by the Cummings ‘Barnard Castle Defence’. I think John Smith’s post from this morning captured that in a clever way.

19563 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 10, #664 of 1297 🔗

1) They’ve dug themselves in so deep that there’s no backing out at this point and they have to maintain the fiction that the virus is terrifying so that it doesn’t look like they got it wrong

2) Even if they did admit that the whole thing was a bit overblown, the campaign to make the public terrified of the virus has been so successful that nobody would believe them (witness the “too fast, too soon” bleating from every direction)

3) They have absolutely no idea how to handle 1) and 2) so the safe bet is to keep playing along and hope something magic happens

19870 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 3, #665 of 1297 🔗

I vote for ‘something much more sinister’ going on.

19573 ▶▶ Chris John, replying to Barnabas, 1, #666 of 1297 🔗

Goes to prove Hancock is out of his depth.
The rest of them barely pass muster either to be honest.
What a shower

20336 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Chris John, 1, #667 of 1297 🔗

Oh I think Handjob is just getting into his stride. I agree with JohnB

19587 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Barnabas, 2, #668 of 1297 🔗

Can’t wait for the new political party. Conservatives lost the plot, no hope for them

19505 Paul, replying to Paul, 17, #669 of 1297 🔗

I’ve just returned from our weekly visit to Aldi which is my little way of comparing public idiocy from week to week in the same setting.More mask wearers this time than ever before but still a minority,perhaps about twelve out of fifty people and only one with mask and gloves,no just glove wearers this week.Less compliance with the 2m crap but some are still making the distance about 4m and about the same moderate level of sanitiser use as per the past couple of weeks.Still the bloody stupid queuing to go in though with a member of staff telling you when it is safe to !.
I don’t know what my very un-scientific survey reveals though,it horribly seems like this is becoming the accepted ‘normality’ by most people which I find very,very worrying and it was certainly enough for me to return home quite wound-up !.

19524 ▶▶ Cbird, replying to Paul, 12, #670 of 1297 🔗

What I’m finding is that in the great outdoors I very rarely see a mask or gloves and the vast, vast majority of people don’t give a toss about distancing. But over the last few days I have seen more masks etc in shops, and I like to think that it’s just because more of the previously terrified are venturing out. Although irritating (and believe me, I am with you there) that’s positive isn’t it? Well maybe.

Had fun in Homebase this afternoon though: walked right past the hand sanitizer warden at the door. He shouted at me to use it, to which I said “no thank you” and kept walking. He kept shouting “you can’t come in unless you use it”. I just kept walking tee hee. I didn’t buy anything and I won’t be going back

19766 ▶▶▶ paulito, replying to Cbird, 1, #671 of 1297 🔗

The fuckers will be dragging people into their empty, shitty shops before long.

19819 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Cbird, 1, #672 of 1297 🔗

Well done! What a jobbie twat. I haven’t had that pleasure yet as the local supermarkets now know me too well and are fairly relaxed. In fact, I reckon I’ve visited the local Tesco express more often during lockdown than I ever did before it.

19526 Nigel Baldwin, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 15, #673 of 1297 🔗

I know this has been posted somewhere else on this forum but just in case people can’t find it.


This is John Lee who has written a lot of sense in The Spectator amongst others (a rag I’d never read until I came to this site). This interview however is so much more thorough as it should be being 75′ long but is essential listening to all who want a better perspective on all aspects of CV19 and virology in general.The long and the short of it is that’ we are mad to have done what we did and here’s the science to back up that point of view.’ Every politician should listen to this, particularly those who gave pathetic responses to RDawg and others along the lines of protecting people. Ha effing ha. Every lockdown zealot should listen too, although I suspect that’ll make them dig their heels in because they’ll hate being wrong. Fun fact: we have more viruses in our body than we do cells (that’s a lot.)

19537 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 11, #674 of 1297 🔗

John Lee has been a standout through this. One of the only British medical professionals (on a non-academic level – although dude has a PhD so he qualifies as both here) to stick his neck out. The section where he talks about NHS staff being unwilling to talk to the media is very telling. (Props to James here, he asked some great questions, trying to get John to be less diplomatic lol)

19546 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 7, #675 of 1297 🔗

If we were able to ignore death then letting a virus spread and kill whoever it kills would eventually lead to the virus and the hosts living in symbiosis. That’s how nature works.

It is only because we feel compelled to meddle that we will forever be fighting against nature and if our reaction to this pandemic is a sign of things to come then I fear that we will be the arbiters of our own destruction.

19637 ▶▶ FiFiTrixabelle, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 2, #676 of 1297 🔗

Agree with you Nigel. I’ve listened to this today and it’s a great discussion…even for those of us well versed in the argument against lockdown (and now the lunacy of the ‘new normal’). Why these debates are not being more widely broadcast and heard is beyond me.

19536 Biker, 9, #677 of 1297 🔗

Day whatever of the global takeover, the News from the Pictish Underground

Two hours till the press conference, though hours have become minutes under emergency powers granted to the Government by the Scientists a CERN

Just heard about a successful raid on Auchtermuchty where the socialist traitors The Proclaimers have been kidnapped by the armed wing of the Pictish Underground. They’ve already been tried and found guilty of rampant socialism and have been sentenced to continuous speeches by Mrs Thatcher detailing why socialism is bad. They will also be forced to march 500 miles and then 500 more.
Reports are coming in from Hampstead in England where spare parts for local peoples solar panels are in short supply. Some people have been forced to make large holes in their roof and are placing buckets of water in direct sunlight in the vain attempt to heat water for their Jacuzzi’s.
Héro and Polemist Peter Hitchens, who has been appearing on Talk Radio with Mike Graham every Monday, has been freed from their studios after a short battle. Graham, who has started resembling the slavering buffoon ex Labour Minister Roy Hattersley’s Spitting Image puppet, has been reported as being extremely upset as his morning show will now exclusively contain content of total nonsense. His listeners however are happy as intelligent, well spoken and generally factually correct information was making them feel inadequate.
Further good news is all of Boris Johnston’s (Britain’s Obese but highly charismatic PM) ex lovers have formed a Girl Band and are planing a Charity Single to raise money for new iPhones so NHS staff can recored very high quality dance videos. The rumour is they’re doing a cover of The Specials’s “Lockdown Kick De Bucket” with the B side “If You Wanna Be My Lover” by popular female ensemble The Spice Girls also featuring a brand new freestyle rap from British hunk and world renowned Epidemiologist Neil Ferguson. They hope to have iPhones available on every ward for when the inspiration to dance to Michael Jacksons Blame it on the Boogie or Sinitta’s So Macho in a bid to cheer up the dying in their care hits. Personally i can’t think of anything better as i draw my last breath to see some rotund nurse shake her tush in my face. I would like to think the trivialness of these dances will show people there is nothing to be scared off. Though if i could chose the song it would be The Bee gee’s Saturday Night Fever or perhaps Stayin’ Alive though that might be a little contentious in these dark times

more report soon………

19542 Nobody2020, replying to Nobody2020, 7, #678 of 1297 🔗

Comparison of Estimated Rates of Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) in Border Counties in Iowa Without a Stay-at-Home Order and Border Counties in Illinois With a Stay-at-Home Order

Conclusions and Relevance This cross-sectional study with a difference-in-differences design found an increase in estimated rates of COVID-19 cases per 10 000 residents in the border counties in Iowa compared with the border counties in Illinois following a stay-at-home order that was implemented in Illinois but not in Iowa.

The virus spread faster in counties with no stay-at-home order, not unexpected, however:


Illinois has 30% above normal excess deaths and COVID-19 deaths (427 deaths/M) compared to Iowa with below normal excess deaths and 558 COVID-19 deaths (177 deaths/M).

So lockdown (stay-at-home orders) may slow the spread of the virus but the data (wherever you look) is highly suggestive that they cause higher rates of excess death.

19612 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Nobody2020, 1, #679 of 1297 🔗

V interesting

19614 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Farinances, 2, #680 of 1297 🔗

I mean that MUST be collateral of lockdown (plus hefty recategorization of said collateral as covid cases), surely?

19837 ▶▶ Mimi, replying to Nobody2020, 1, #681 of 1297 🔗

This is the same pattern we’ve seen with states. The stricter the lockdown, the higher the per-capita death rate. Which leads one to hypothesize that the lockdowns are somehow causing the death rate to go higher. (Also fairly perfect correspondence with red/blue states: the virus is deadlier in blue states.)

20053 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Mimi, #682 of 1297 🔗

I think that lockdown and other measures can exacerbate the problem and create situtations that make the virus more deadly. We can ignore countries that suppressed the virus early because locking down people with no virus present would yield the same result as not locking down people with no virus present. I’m sure there’s a less wordy way to put that but it’s early.

19548 Jonathan Castro, replying to Jonathan Castro, 15, #683 of 1297 🔗

This lockdown is becoming intolerable.
How long will this craziness last? We need to march on Westminster.

19555 ▶▶ ambwozere, replying to Jonathan Castro, 3, #684 of 1297 🔗

Let us all know when you’re going. I think we’ll all be happy to join you!

19581 ▶▶▶ Nic, replying to ambwozere, 1, #685 of 1297 🔗

And me

19557 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to Jonathan Castro, 2, #686 of 1297 🔗

I would be so up for that!

19586 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Jonathan Castro, 1, #687 of 1297 🔗

I’d actually be up for this is Megabus is still a thing

19589 ▶▶ Anoymous, replying to Jonathan Castro, #688 of 1297 🔗


19549 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 13, #689 of 1297 🔗

Just out from Germany.
Study of mild moderate symptom of Cvid-19
“We found that approx. 70 % of the patients developed sustainable antibodies 3 weeks or later after the infection. In about 30 % of the patients with mild to moderate symptoms, no significant antibodies could be detected in two consecutive analyses. Conversely, out of ten patients without symptoms, four were repeatedly positive. Expectedly, six had no specific antibodies.”
This is going to be more complex by the day. 30% of PCR + mild cases do not produce antibodies. Only 40% of asymptomatic develop antibodies.
All antibody studies severely underestimate the persons infected. Everything points to enormous amount of infection and IFR further reduced.
The following quotation from Prof Giesecke rings truer every day
“These facts have led me to the following conclusions. Everyone will be exposed to severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2, and most people will become infected. COVID-19 is spreading like wildfire in all countries, but we do not see it—it almost always spreads from younger people with no or weak symptoms to other people who will also have mild symptoms. This is the real pandemic, but it goes on beneath the surface, and is probably at its peak now in many European countries. There is very little we can do to prevent this spread”

19550 ▶▶ mhcp, replying to swedenborg, 2, #690 of 1297 🔗

It means the tools are not accurate enough to determine the variation needed for the hypothesis. Signal to noise again.

I see lots of these types of papers – oh we don’t get what we thought, it must mean there is something else that we aren’t seeing.

William of Occam wants a word

19616 ▶▶▶ swedenborg, replying to mhcp, 6, #691 of 1297 🔗

All pandemic planning was done for a new flu virus. A new flu virus would infect 60% of population before we reached herd immunity. We need to flatten the curve, therefore this new idea of a 2 weeks lockdown to stop the spread in the most opportune phase of the epidemic. Flatten the curve to spread out the cases not to overwhelm NHS. That was the theory.
In come Covid-19. The epidemic curve looks different, we have an enormous increase even before we realize it, as most infections are probably asymptomatic or mild symptomatic not classified as Covid-19 until we had the test. It then peters out the same way in many countries regardless what we do. All discussion about herd immunity in this disease is impossible to calculate. There is asymptomatic infection with or without antibodies. There is symptomatic infection with or without antibodies. We most likely have only T cells immunity in some cases which we cannot test on a scale like antibodies. We might even have genetic resistance in some parts of the population. In summary nobody has a clue about the level of herd immunity required for this infection. But we must agree that we are acquiring herd immunity as the pandemic is slowing down.
Pease tell me how we are going to stop this infection. No human effort can stop this virus. We cannot trust antibodies. We cannot trust PCR test as any day after a negative test, it can still become positive if exposed to asymptomatic staff. We need to have mass testing on a daily basis and what do we do with the false positive cases? And you can’t exclude false negative PCR test. Let us hope it disappears like SARS 2003 and if it comes back it will be just another addition to the other 4 coronavirus we always have had.

19709 ▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to swedenborg, 3, #692 of 1297 🔗

Or the virus is basically harmless and causes symptoms within the noise of current treatable ailments. The strange cases of people having real difficulty breathing also happen with the flu on occasion. And with using the wrong treatments. Basically, iatrogenics

The first thing is to stop assuming that we have a pandemic. We possibly have a variation of something but nothing significantly above the noise of general life.

Looking at the epidemic curve is nonsense because there is much more noise than signal. You also have reporting effects (form factors) that follow certain relationships themselves.

The best thing we could have done is take a bit more care with the elderly and get on with our lives.

Peer-reviewed papers are relative to the field but also no indication of correctness. If all virologists and epidemiologists believe in Covid-19 then it will all be one big confirmation bias exercise. Saw it in nanomaterials when I studied them many years ago.

You need to question the initial attribution of Covid-19 to symptoms. That was never clearly established. So we are seeing multiple things happen at once and making it way worse by the idiotic lockdown rules.

19775 ▶▶▶▶▶ 4096, replying to mhcp, #693 of 1297 🔗

I don’t thinks that’s true, there must be something significantly above a noise level otherwise Sweden which has no lockdown would not have a considerable number of excess deaths (the deaths can’t be attributed to the lockdown itself). Of course, I am not for a second, God forbid, suggesting that lockdown was a good idea, just want to keep things accurate.

19797 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to 4096, #694 of 1297 🔗

Having excess deaths does not mean it’s a virus that is causing them. Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

How many things have changed? Sweden have admitted to changing what they did with care homes. The other thing is that what else is being treated differently and what is being missed because you are looking only for Covid?

19946 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ swedenborg, replying to 4096, 2, #695 of 1297 🔗

Nobody is denying that it can be deadly for elderly. Even the Chinese said that from the beginning but we did a catastrophic mistake in not factoring in this in our response.
Sweden age structure of deaths of Covid-19 today
25% over 90 years
41% between 80-90
22% between 70-80
1.4% below 50 and most with severe underlying disease
The idea of locking down the working population in such a situation and not at least trying to protect the elderly in care homes from the beginning was totally reckless, if not outright geriatric holocaust. And our eminent scientists had the information of age related deaths already at the beginning of the pandemic. Instead our elderly were evacuated from hospitals and sent out to care homes often already infected.

20050 ▶▶▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to mhcp, #696 of 1297 🔗

“Or the virus is basically harmless and causes symptoms within the noise of current treatable ailments”

I’ve been thinking exactly this. We keep seeing how experts are baffled by all the different symptoms of this virus but a simple explanation would be the symptoms are merely those from existing conditions and they’re just trying to find a link between them.

The only link being all the people dying are having COVID-19 attributed as the cause.

19759 ▶▶▶ 4096, replying to mhcp, #697 of 1297 🔗

Sorry, but I’m not sure I understand, could you elaborate? The paper says that 29% (32/110) of the subjects who tested positive on a PCR test did not develop antibodies (despite having only mild to no symptoms of course) I don’t think this can be dismissed as noise.

19763 ▶▶▶▶ 4096, replying to 4096, #698 of 1297 🔗

“specificity of 87.5 – 95.5 % for IgA and 83.5 – 97.5 % for IgG”

19802 ▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to 4096, #699 of 1297 🔗

PCR is not a diagnositc test. It is used to amplify strands of DNA/RNA. Depending on how you amplify it you get different results.

But before you even do that, shouldn’t you have established that the virus can be uniquely identified to cause certain symptoms? And that the test has low noise (uncertainty levels) so you can correctly identify that the virus is present?

When you read these papers they are based on the SARS-Cov-2 test which in itself is a vague test.

Garbage in garbage out.

19811 ▶▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to mhcp, #700 of 1297 🔗

It also applys to serological tests. The main thrust of recent work is all based on initially being diagnosed with Covid. So the initial assumption is seeded and everything after that is relative.

What if what you are measuring is a mixture of responses from multiple things? How have you even established that SARS-Cov-2 uniquely.

When you look at it that way you then ask, how is this significantly different that general flu and respiratory illness? Because it needs to be an order of magnitude different if you shut society down.

19878 ▶▶▶▶▶ 4096, replying to mhcp, #701 of 1297 🔗

Well, I am not an expert in the field so I am not going to argue about the “vagueness” of the Sars-CoV-2 test but I don’t think that everyone around the world doing those tests is incapable of taking into the account test inaccuracy. I know that a lot of those supposed experts seem incapable of critical thinking but surely these are basic skills that they teach them during their degree – not much critical thinking needed.

Also if it is all noise how do you explain that the number of cases and deaths follows identical Gompertz function curves – sure if you are correct the number of cases and deaths should perhaps increases to some level a then stay more or less constant.

Also, are you sure that it is possible to routinely bias results of a diagnostic test by setting a PCR reaction in different (how?) ways?

Anyhow, this will likely be a very important paper.

19880 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ 4096, replying to 4096, #702 of 1297 🔗

Sorry for all the typos

19910 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to 4096, 1, #703 of 1297 🔗

The “noise” is that is not significantly different from other respiratory diseases. For example if there is a rabies outbreak, there are clear tests for it and symptoms. And it has a very high mortality. It stands out.

Following a Gompertz curve means an impulse with a drop off. If all the people who would have died in the next 6 months suddenly die in a month you also get an impulse with a drop off. But does that mean a virus caused it. Also say they all have a cough. Is the cough the thing that killed them? If they have dry skin as well would that be the cause.

Yes PCR is biased as the amplification rate can be changed. It is not a diagnostic test. There is no set standard for amplification rates. The Chinese ended up using CAT scans to “test” for SARS-Cov-2. The best test is looking at blood under a microscope and discounting for “exosomes”.

Celia Farber interviewed Karey Mullis and others about PCR:
<a href=”https://uncoverdc.com/2020/04/07/was-the-covid-19-test-meant-to-detect-a-virus/”> https://uncoverdc.com/2020/04/07/was-the-covid-19-test-meant-to-detect-a-virus/</a&gt ;

There is a SARS-Cov-2 virus because it has been studied (or even created) but linking elements of that to symptoms is a different story. People may well be carrying it around but is this actually something bad?

20151 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ 4096, replying to mhcp, 1, #705 of 1297 🔗

Sorry for being pedantic but following a Gompetz curve does not mean an impulse with a drop off. It specifically means that the rate of growth of new cases is declining exponentially from day 1 (i.e. this the 2nd derivative and the actual Gompertz function is the CDF) this means that there is a specific non-random pattern in the growth and decline of the number of cases. If it were true that all those Sars-CoV-2 tests are completely unreliable because of signal-to-noise issues you would not expect to see the same patter of growth and decline in different contexts of different health systems, different ways of testing, different tests, different ways of counting cases etc. This means that there is definitely a novel coronavirus and it’s spreading around the world.

Now, what is causing all the excess deaths?
It cannot be only the response to the pandemic because then you would not expect the deaths to peak only a couple of weeks into lockdown as they did in the UK. If anything deaths should continue to rise as the mitigation measure which presumably cause all of them are not changed. Even if you come up with some good-enough, just-so story there is no way it could work in for so many different responses (from almost no mitigation at all to full lockdown) different health care systems etc.
Therefore, even only using a certain sharp instrument you alluded to earlier – the only sensible explanation is that a significant number of deaths is caused by this unquestionably novel coronavirus.

None of this, of course, means that the virus is not, in relative terms, basically harmless. This is certainly true for people under 60 and it is just one of the reasons why lockdowns are an unspeakably idiotic idea.
At the same time, let’s not get distracted by silly conspiracy theories.

20171 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ 4096, replying to 4096, #706 of 1297 🔗

Also, I don’t have any exact data but it clearly seems that majority of Covid-19 patients have very similar symptoms.

20173 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ 4096, replying to 4096, #707 of 1297 🔗

*Not CDF – total no. of cases.

20172 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to 4096, -1, #708 of 1297 🔗

… I don’t think that everyone around the world doing those tests is incapable of taking into the account test inaccuracy.

You underestimate the importance of keeping a job, a house, and feeding one’s family.

19744 ▶▶ 4096, replying to swedenborg, 1, #709 of 1297 🔗

This is incredible – it would mean that Swedish modelling that predicted at least 20% of the population of Stockholm has been exposed was correct after all and the Swedes got absolutely everything right. It would, also, mean that there will almost certainly not be a second wave in any western country that’s been significantly exposed which is probably all of them.

19554 OKUK, replying to OKUK, 16, #710 of 1297 🔗

In the space of one week the BBC has gone from total obsession about whether one man obeyed the lockdown rules to a carefree cavalier attitude about mass disobedience towards such rules. Why so?…ah yes because the infractors are on the Left and include people of colour. Maitlis on Newsnight didn’t even mention the issue, even though video after video of demos in the USA and elsewhere showed people failing to respect social distancing. Last week it was the most important issue on the planet – this week, nada. What hypocrisy! More than everyday hypocrisy – superhypocrisy!! We need a new word for such a massive switch in moral compass direction…emilising perhaps.

19568 ▶▶ Barnabas, replying to OKUK, 14, #711 of 1297 🔗

I loathe the BBC and I resent paying every single penny of the £157.50 tax on my home to fund those overpaid jobsworths and the liberal drivel that they broadcast to the UK.
The BBC and their self-righteous political correspondents and TV presenters have been a significant factor in the prolongation of the lockdown in the UK.

19579 ▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to Barnabas, 6, #712 of 1297 🔗

Then don’t pay it. And don’t tell them your name, pike. Until they arrive with a policeman with a warrant, you don’t have to tell them anything and they cannot enter your property.

Just. Don’t. Pay.

19694 ▶▶▶ Beefy, replying to Barnabas, 1, #713 of 1297 🔗

If you pay for it, you are part of the problem. Stop. There is no need for terrestrial TV anymore.

19728 ▶▶▶ Edna, replying to Barnabas, #714 of 1297 🔗

Though I agree that most of the BBC television output is drivel, the BBC also do radio and I think Radio 3 is (almost) alone worth the licence fee. Perhaps we should go back to the days when there was a wireless licence! I’d happily pay a licence fee for Radio 3 🙂

19765 ▶▶▶▶ Gossamer, replying to Edna, 3, #715 of 1297 🔗

BBC4 has some excellent arts and science documentaries. However, all that is under threat as it is, apparently, perceived as “elitist” (according to a recent Radio Times article). Whixh says a lot about the BBC’s politics, as well as its priorities.

19822 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Gossamer, 2, #716 of 1297 🔗

I agree. BBC4 was what kept my father sane when he was in a care home with end-stage Parkinsons plus macular degeneration but with his very sharp intellect intact.

20183 ▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Gossamer, 1, #717 of 1297 🔗

BBC 4’s excellent roster of European (Scandinavian mainly) shows are and documentaries are the only things I tend to watch from now. There are *ways around* 😉 not having access to live TV though

19779 ▶▶▶▶ Pjb, replying to Edna, 1, #718 of 1297 🔗

You don’t need a tv licence to listen to BBC (or any other) radio.
The licence is for live broadcast TV, (from any broadcast station).
You don’t need a licence for internet TV, apart from iPlayer.

20252 ▶▶▶▶▶ Edna, replying to Pjb, #719 of 1297 🔗

But aren’t the BBC radio stations funded by the licence fee? I’ve always presumed they were. I used to watch BBC4 but now (apart from the rugby) we never watch live television.

19821 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Barnabas, 1, #720 of 1297 🔗

My tv license expired at the end of May and I’ve refused to renew it.

19564 Mark, replying to Mark, 29, #721 of 1297 🔗

Here are the Guilty Men.

First draft, per parliament.uk . [“Men” here is the traditional English usage referring to humans of either sex.] If anyone knows of any reason why a particular member of the cabinet should be forgiven at this stage (if, for instance, he or she has spoken out against lockdown substantively, or voted against it back when it mattered), I’d love to hear it. Otherwise, never forget who was responsible for imposing this catastrophe upon us, and never forgive them (short perhaps of some kind of impressively thorough apology, reparation and promise to oppose any future attempt at any kind of lockdown).

There is no excuse for what they have done. The science did not require it, it was not a morally acceptable response to the threat, such as it was, and there absolutely were perfectly viable alternatives available.

Cabinet Office
Prime Minister, First Lord of the Treasury and Minister for the Civil Service
Boris Johnson
Uxbridge and South Ruislip
HM Treasury
Chancellor of the Exchequer
Rishi Sunak
Richmond (Yorks)
Foreign and Commonwealth Office
Foreign Secretary and First Secretary of State
Dominic Raab
Esher and Walton
Home Office
Home Secretary
Priti Patel
Cabinet Office
Minister for the Cabinet Office and Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster
Michael Gove
Surrey Heath
Ministry of Justice
Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice
Robert Buckland
South Swindon
Ministry of Defence
Secretary of State for Defence
Ben Wallace
Wyre and Preston North
Department of Health and Social Care
Secretary of State for Health and Social Care
Matt Hancock
West Suffolk
Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy
Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy
Alok Sharma
Reading West
Department for International Trade
Secretary of State for International Trade and President of the Board of Trade
Elizabeth Truss
South West Norfolk
Department for Work and Pensions
Secretary of State for Work and Pensions
Dr Thérèse Coffey
Suffolk Coastal
Department for Education
Secretary of State for Education
Gavin Williamson
South Staffordshire
Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs
Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs
George Eustice
Camborne and Redruth
Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government
Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government
Robert Jenrick
Department for Transport
Secretary of State for Transport
Grant Shapps
Welwyn Hatfield
Northern Ireland Office
Secretary of State for Northern Ireland
Brandon Lewis
Great Yarmouth
Scotland Office
Secretary of State for Scotland
Mr Alister Jack
Dumfries and Galloway
Wales Office
Secretary of State for Wales
Simon Hart
Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire
Office of the Leader of the House of Lords
Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
Life peer
Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport
Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport
Oliver Dowden
Department for International Development
Secretary of State for International Development
Anne-Marie Trevelyan
Cabinet Office
Minister without Portfolio (Cabinet Office)
Amanda Milling
Cannock Chase
HM Treasury
Chief Secretary to the Treasury
Steve Barclay
North East Cambridgeshire
Office of the Leader of the House of Commons
Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons
Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg
North East Somerset
HM Treasury
Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury and Chief Whip
Mark Spencer
Attorney General’s Office
Attorney General
Suella Braverman

And as the only individual outside the Cabinet both influential enough to matter and thoroughly implicated in pushing the lockdown policy:

Dominic Cummings

27 Guilty Men

Never in the field of British governmental history has so much damage been inflicted to so little purpose.

19567 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Mark, 14, #722 of 1297 🔗

I’d add every single MP, with particular opprobrium reserved for senior figures in the opposition, and the leaders of the devolved governments.

19574 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to Julian, 13, #723 of 1297 🔗

Agreed. The above are guilty of making catastrophic decisions. The rest of the system, from the opposition, to parliament as a whole, to the press, to the judiciary are guilty of a total failure to stop them

19576 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Julian, 6, #724 of 1297 🔗

Plenty of blame to go around, for sure, but at this level better to be more tightly targeted I think. Individual MPs have relatively little power these days. Certainly the jurisdictions with devolved authorities might have their own lists.

Boris Johnson
Rishi Sunak
Dominic Raab
Priti Patel
Michael Gove
Robert Buckland
Mr Ben Wallace
Matt Hancock
Alok Sharma
Elizabeth Truss
Elizabeth Truss
Dr Thérèse Coffey
Gavin Williamson
George Eustice
Robert Jenrick
Grant Shapps
Brandon Lewis
Mr Alister Jack
Simon Hart
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
Oliver Dowden
Anne-Marie Trevelyan
Amanda Milling
Steve Barclay
Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg
Mark Spencer
Suella Braverman
Dominic Cummings

19577 ▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to Julian, 13, #725 of 1297 🔗

And every civil servant, and every policeman above the rank of constable, and every TV journalist, newspaper editor, every teachers’ union official and every teacher who has hidden behind them.

Every snitch, every ‘working from home’ public sector bureaucrat noisily cheering for lockdown, and everyone who clapped for the NHS.

They are all dead to me and I will laugh every time one loses his job/house/pension/limbs.

19646 ▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to AidanR, #726 of 1297 🔗

To be fair I think quite a lot of police have been being quietly sensible about it. Of course there have been a few idiots who have rightly been called out.

19820 ▶▶▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to guy153, 1, #727 of 1297 🔗

The police close ranks. That means they have to be taken as a collective.

19596 ▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to Mark, 4, #728 of 1297 🔗

I may have said this before, but we need to stop voting for the three parties that have brought our country to this misery. It goes back way before the virus.

19676 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to Mike Smith, 4, #729 of 1297 🔗

Quite true – but what alternatives are we ever given? Even at the last GE, Farage stood down most of his candidates. I’m not sure if he was bought off, scared off or just realised that our voting system is a complete disaster for new parties, but without a totally new Party we are essentially disenfranchised.

19705 ▶▶▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to IanE, #730 of 1297 🔗

I agree. I would have voted for Farage’s party, but I wasn’t able to. But we need to stop this business of voting Tory, come what may, because they’re less bad. There has to be an alternative. Farage, whoever. And we need to move to that party en masse. If we don’t start thinking in terms of a new party, we’re finished.
The 2011 referendum result was a disaster.

19869 ▶▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to IanE, 1, #731 of 1297 🔗

I looked at this from the inside… at the last election, the Brexit party was a paper tiger… an awful lot of their PPCs were total losers, beyond any Westminster imaginings. I wouldn’t have taken on our local one as my cleaner and she was a lawyer.

19599 ▶▶ Cruella, replying to Mark, -14, #732 of 1297 🔗

How about WWI? Why have you spent so much time listing these people, what a pointless exercise.

19607 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Cruella, 6, #733 of 1297 🔗

I like to remember who was responsible for this kind of catastrophe. You might prefer to forget and let them “move on”, that’s up to you.

As for WW1, clearly there were very substantial reasons for that decision, which books have been written about. You might disagree with them, but they were certainly not as trivial as a jumped up flu epidemic.

19650 ▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Mark, 1, #734 of 1297 🔗

Actually the comparison with wars is quite apt in that both are often caused by governments having to follow through on their own propaganda.

19673 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to guy153, 3, #735 of 1297 🔗

Not going to disagree with you on that.

I maintain though that in terms of sheer triviality, and leaving aside mendacity, “if we don’t do this we might lose the equivalent of few years’ flu victims” is pretty much unprecedented for a decision as costly as the one to go into lockdown.

19706 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Mark, 1, #736 of 1297 🔗

Yes, it seems a mistake of monumental proportions. I struggle to think of a larger one in recent history.

19736 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Julian, 2, #737 of 1297 🔗

Such costly errors are more common in foreign policy, but (not unrelated) most of the real costs are born by foreigners unless you wage war on someone who can actually fight back effectively. The attack on Iraq has been described by people who know what they are talking about as the worst foreign policy blunder since Suez, and even the worst since WW2, but the costs to this country directly were relatively small.

The only way I can see a more costly error arising any time soon would be if we let ourselves get drawn into a war with Russia or China.

19754 ▶▶▶▶ paulito, replying to Mark, 3, #738 of 1297 🔗

Agree Mark. Let them move on and they’ll do it again. They all must pay dearly for this.

19609 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Cruella, 2, #739 of 1297 🔗

Perhaps if more lessons had been learned from WWI we’d be in less of a mess now.

19873 ▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to Cruella, #740 of 1297 🔗

In time, the history of WW1 yielded the band Franz Ferdinand.

And even though they’re Scottish, I now think it was all worth it.

19627 ▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Mark, 8, #741 of 1297 🔗

I’ve been looking at the SAGE Committee membership lists and of 10 checked so far 9 has links to Bill Gates and his foundation one way or another.

19634 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Awkward Git, #742 of 1297 🔗

Culpability amongst advisers is definitely another issue worth recording.

19680 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to Awkward Git, 1, #743 of 1297 🔗

If scientists ever find a way to significantly extend life-time, Gates will be first in line and the future will become even bleaker as a result.

19817 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Awkward Git, #744 of 1297 🔗

…which is very worrying.. Explains a lot though.

19565 mjr, replying to mjr, 15, #745 of 1297 🔗

Latest travesty. I am watching war film (depicting real bravery and heroes) on tv (nothing else to do since i havent had a sniff of a job in 3 months ) and in the advertising break – an advert from Sterling mint.. a set of 10 medals (“the heroes of 2020”) to celebrate all the brave people of the covid crisis. Only £49 each but then genuine silver. What next? a VC day every year . Maybe a bank holiday . And it includes teachers? I think my head will explode.

19572 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to mjr, 14, #746 of 1297 🔗

God, I could weep. What the bloody hell have we come to?

19578 ▶▶ Barnabas, replying to mjr, 10, #747 of 1297 🔗

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. Extra long walk this evening to calm my nerves.

19584 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to mjr, 13, #748 of 1297 🔗

This is honestly vile. Vile. I’m leaving the country.
Scandinavia is my port of call. The land where they are willing to stand up for sanity, or at least admit their mistakes.

19585 ▶▶ Bob, replying to mjr, 3, #749 of 1297 🔗

WTF! All must have prizes…

19590 ▶▶ mjr, replying to mjr, 6, #750 of 1297 🔗

here is the link https://sterlingmint.co.uk/ as i am sure you will all want to view each medal in detail and select which medal you want to give to your own personal hero — or indeed as recommended by Sterling, to yourself (there is an “observed lockdown” medal ……… although i think that anyone reading this comment probably doesnt qualify).

19620 ▶▶▶ Barnabas, replying to mjr, 13, #751 of 1297 🔗

comment image ?imwidth=320

19632 ▶▶▶▶ Edna, replying to Barnabas, 4, #752 of 1297 🔗

I love Matt! He always seems to hit the nail precisely on the head 🙂

19752 ▶▶▶ paulito, replying to mjr, 3, #753 of 1297 🔗

Is there a medal for shitting in bushes at barbecues or services to the toilet roll industry?

19611 ▶▶ James007, replying to mjr, 11, #754 of 1297 🔗

Oh no, it’s not a flipping war! My sister is a senior nurse and doesnt go in for the NHS worship. she said some of her colleagues are excellent, others not so much.
No disrespect to any teachers (a noble profession), but are they really heros of the covid crisis?

19613 ▶▶ smileymiley, replying to mjr, 9, #755 of 1297 🔗

It’s just horrendous! Ludicrous! Utter,utter, madness!

19618 ▶▶ Poppy, replying to mjr, 12, #756 of 1297 🔗

I love how the top left coin is appears to be ‘observers of the lockdown’. Just another form of the toxic mediocrity that is the ‘everyone’s a winner’ culture.

19621 ▶▶▶ Gossamer, replying to Poppy, 12, #757 of 1297 🔗

I’d like to see a commemorative plate for that one … am having great fun imagining an appropriate image.

Notice there’s also a “Heroes of 2020 – Police” medal in the collection. Because the police have clearly behaved with great honour and integrity throughout, keeping us all safe from the threat of sunbathers and Easter egg purchasers.

19623 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Gossamer, 9, #758 of 1297 🔗

Observing social distancing rules whilst shouting in people’s faces whilst not wearing PPE, harassing people in large groups, and clapping like seals in formation.

19624 ▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Gossamer, 5, #759 of 1297 🔗

Yes, especially (Cruella look away now, silly comment coming up) Det’ Cons’ Insp’ Officer Peter Piss-Pott of Twat Valley Police!

19661 ▶▶▶▶ Gossamer, replying to Gossamer, 7, #760 of 1297 🔗

I’ve just taken a closer look at the “Observed lockdown” medal, and it gets worse:

“Design is inspired by the George Cross to recognise the courage of the nation, especially our children.”

George Cross!!


19667 ▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Gossamer, 6, #761 of 1297 🔗


19818 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Farinances, 1, #762 of 1297 🔗

Funny that was exactly my response.

19668 ▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Gossamer, 2, #763 of 1297 🔗

Makes you proud to be British!

19674 ▶▶▶▶▶ IanE, replying to Gossamer, 3, #764 of 1297 🔗

Heavens, shouldn’t they be given out free as a reward to all these oh-so-worthy citizens?

19865 ▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Gossamer, 2, #765 of 1297 🔗

Presumably there’s a special Stasi medal for people who e.g. told the police someone was secretly visiting a sick relative.

19722 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to mjr, 3, #766 of 1297 🔗

I’m sorry but that’s just an insult to genuine heroes.

19807 ▶▶ ianp, replying to mjr, 1, #767 of 1297 🔗

I think they should donate them to the contributors here, for free.

Go on! Contact their customer support 😆

19815 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to mjr, 4, #768 of 1297 🔗

Sterling Mint specialises in collectible crap that only idiots buy because they believe it will be worth a fortune in 150 years’ time.

19868 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Cheezilla, 3, #769 of 1297 🔗

In one year’s time you will probably be prosecuted for having one – shows you were part of a criminal conspiracy.

19595 Cruella, replying to Cruella, -13, #770 of 1297 🔗

What are you hoping to achieve with these silly comments. I used to enjoy coming here for some intelligent discourse, but you’re just venting. Haven’t you anything better to do?

19600 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Cruella, 10, #771 of 1297 🔗

I don’t know which silly comments you’re referring to, but anyway, to be fair I think this is a very frustrating time for a lot of people and maybe a bit of venting is what they need.

Hopefully you will still find a fair bit of intelligent discourse.

19601 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Cruella, 7, #772 of 1297 🔗

Anonymous, are you ok?

19626 ▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Cruella, 5, #773 of 1297 🔗

🤣 you’re so funny.

Worked from home all day and I’m going to the gym later, I’ll do some heavy bag work and visualise Cruella…….

19598 Mark, replying to Mark, 7, #774 of 1297 🔗

Here’s another direct link between the coronapanic and the somewhat similar BLM hysteria: the political bias built in to the big internet censorship companies, who are working to suppress both dissent to the coronapanic and rational responses to the BLM hysteria:

Mark Zuckerberg told Facebook staff he was ‘disgusted’ by Trump’s looting comments before staff revolted and staged a virtual walkout over his refusal to delete them
This is not a matter of just the owners being politically partisan censors. Rather, it is the bulk of the entire class of people who staff these companies at senior levels who are politically partisan censors, just as with the mainstream media.

Note the inherent absurdity of claiming that saying looters could be shot (a perfectly legitimate and time honoured response to this kind of crime) is somehow “glorifying” or inciting violence, while encouraging people to make dishonest and inflammatory assertions about supposed racist police violence, and putting out apologias for violent mobs.

19633 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Mark, 5, #775 of 1297 🔗

Here’s the kind inflammatory, absurdly dishonest, hysterical sh1t that this BLM poison spreads around, no doubt with the full approval of the Facebook/Twitter/BBC/Guardian classes. If people actually take this kind of nonsense seriously (and it appears, incredibly, that they do), small wonder people go out and riot, and people die as a result.

Remind me, who’s the one posting incitements to violence?

In a Twitter video, posted after Sunday’s demonstration, she declared: ‘You guys are saying that the corona pandemic will kill us, but police brutality will kill us first. I’m already risking my life on a daily basis. Corona’s not going to kill me before the police kill me .’

The only figleaf of truth in that piece of nonsense is that by virtue of her age and not her race, she has essentially zero risk of dying from the disease (something I suspect she, like most yoof, is entirely ignorant of anyway). But the total number of black deaths associated with police action or custody in the whole of England and Wales (many of them no doubt entirely accidental or legitimate) in 2017/18 was 17.

19651 ▶▶▶ mark baker, replying to Mark, 6, #776 of 1297 🔗

This is obviously arrant nonsense, which is one thing – she’s young and impressionable and who hasn’t said ridiculous stuff from time to time? I know I have. But for MSM to publish this as if she’s some kind of authoritative commentator!!??? Give me a break!!

19656 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to mark baker, 2, #777 of 1297 🔗

In fairness this is in the Mail, and they’ve clearly published it in order to hold it up to ridicule.

My point in relation to it is that it illustrates the kind of delusional beliefs about reality that movements like BLM push, and that applies whether these teenagers are predominantly movers of or victims of BLM’s lies.

19800 ▶▶▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Mark, 1, #778 of 1297 🔗

Influenced by a whole unholy cabal of undesirable extremists. ANTIFA (fascists themselves), Momentum looney left, extinction rebellion, anti semites. They really must think the public are stupid to believe any of this shit as more and more are recognising what bag of bollocks lockdown is, so are not going to fall for more faux sob stories.

Whatever legitimate concerns they have have been rendered null and void by their clear association with the above.

I bloody hope so anyway.

I hope they’ve shot themselves properly in the foot this time and part of me hopes they go out in London again and start looting and burning flags. Horrible as it sounds. History has told us time and time again that the big standard British public wakes up very quickly and turns into the ‘hang em high’ brigade as soon as any of this happens

19801 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ ianp, replying to ianp, 1, #779 of 1297 🔗

*bog standard

19635 Awkward Git, replying to Awkward Git, -2, #781 of 1297 🔗
19678 ▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Awkward Git, #782 of 1297 🔗

Can you point to the frame where you can see Covid19 on it because I can’t see it? And, to be honest, they’d be pretty dumb to put it on. Feels like amateur hour to be honest. Shaky camera and no close up.

19855 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 1, #783 of 1297 🔗

It has COV19 on it. Around 40 secs and again at 57 secs, Nigel.

20011 ▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Nigel Baldwin, #784 of 1297 🔗

It’s quiet clear about 2/3rds of the way through.

Anyone got any reason why this is printed on there?

20150 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Awkward Git, #785 of 1297 🔗

So they know which particular disease this 5G circuit board creates.


20364 ▶▶▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to JohnB, 1, #786 of 1297 🔗

5g doesn’t create any illness by itself.

It is like all EMFs and has adverse effects on the human body and immune systems that means you get sicker more frequently and to a worse degree. 5G wavelengths are very dangerous to humans and have been shown to affect the bodies ability to absorb oxygen and affect haemoglobin very similar to how the malaria parasite works which is why the lungs are so badly affected an anti-malarias seem so work better than any other medicine.

You can be sceptical all you like, I was the same years ago until my wife became sicker and sicker and the medical industry did not want to know as they could not find anything wrong, could not give her a tablet for life or chop something off or out.

10 long years of research, dead ends, going in the wrong direction and so on and it was eventually confirmed as electromagnetic hypersensitivity and yes, it does exist.

She is getting better now but will always have problems.Her neurologist, last time we spoke to him (she was due a follow up but cancelled due to all the recent bollocks) I went through everything nd he said that if the wife improved with the steps we had taken (and she did, drastically) then he could get rid of 80% of his patients of his list almost immediately.

EMFs have been known to adversely affect humans since the electrification of rural America in the 1850s, the Germans have known since 1932. The US Navy issued a list about 1972 of a list of hundreds of studies that had been carried out that confirmed adverse EMF effects on humans.

Lots of info out there if you look away from the mainstream.

Arthur Firstenburg’s book “The Invisible Rainbow” is a good first read and so is the pdf download “Chemtrails, EMFs and You” by William Thomas.

You can research this yourself but 5G systems were developed by DARPA as a battlefield area denial weapon system and was used in Iraq.

Happy researching. It is a long, dark rabbit hole you will go down and it will eventually tie everything together including the recent “pandemic”.

20692 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Awkward Git, #787 of 1297 🔗

Aaaaargh, sorry AG, you have misunderstood. I am already a firm believer in the harmfulness of EMF. Hopefully your excellent post will be of use to others yet to look into it in detail.

Banned my kids from having mobile phones back in the late 90s / early 00s. Heard Barry Trower speak years ago. Still on wired internet at home. Many years of reading Nexus magazine. No telly.

I guess the smiley face was an attempt to neutralise the extremely chilling explanation I posted, to give the minds of the undecideds a milli-second of reflection. Once again, apologies.

20765 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to JohnB, #788 of 1297 🔗

OK JohnB no harm done. I don’t understand these smiley face things, old fashioned.

The people need woken up though, maybe someone will start researching a bit more, you never know.

20367 ▶▶▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to JohnB, #789 of 1297 🔗

Here is a primer for your research if you are interested:


19636 mark baker, replying to mark baker, 17, #790 of 1297 🔗

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/02/prof-lockdown-neil-ferguson-admits-sweden-used-science-uk-has/ Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t Neil Ferguson today admit the lockdown was a waste of time? He admitted that Sweden had obtained the same kinds of results as us without a lockdown. Is this not quite big news? Anywhere in the Guardian/BBC? Nope.

19642 ▶▶ Mark, replying to mark baker, 10, #791 of 1297 🔗

Somehow not important enough to report on the front pages. Understandable, since I understand there is an ongoing racist Holocaust of black people to report instead.

And no doubt tomorrow it will be “old news” anyway. I think that’s how these things go. “A good day to bury bad news”.

19652 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to mark baker, 11, #792 of 1297 🔗

I read it, and I take some of what I’ve said back — dude didn’t mention lockdown in his report. BUT, he openly says here that he “doesn’t support” what Sweden did. So it sounds like he DID explicitly recommend lockdown, probably in person rather in his report.

Hang him with the rest of them.
(Still mainly the government’s fault though. Isn’t it supposed to be their job to sift through bullshit and see the light? If Sweden managed it, “with the same science”, why couldn’t they?
I’ll say it again – it’s because their health authority took over policy as soon as an emergency was declared, whereas every other nation’s policy was directed, POLITICALLY, by central governments)

19657 ▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to Farinances, 9, #793 of 1297 🔗

Well yes, but look at our ‘health authorities’.

Do you honestly think they’d have had the courage, clear thinking, resolve and effectiveness of the Swedish ones?

Or would they have hidden under the bed, wearing damp pants, gibbering while the country burned?

19660 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to AidanR, #794 of 1297 🔗

I cannot refute your statement :oD

19851 ▶▶▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to Farinances, 1, #795 of 1297 🔗

The problem is more fundamental.

I think you appreciate that.

19670 ▶▶▶▶ IanE, replying to AidanR, #796 of 1297 🔗

Hmm, that’s a tricky one: let me think!

19732 ▶▶▶▶ Chris John, replying to AidanR, #797 of 1297 🔗

Waterproof damp pants

19695 ▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Farinances, 3, #798 of 1297 🔗

Someone asked him to produce a model of worst-case scenarios, and provided him with the dataset from which to build the case for lockdown. We don’t know who, but most routes lead back to one or more organisations aligned to the WHO. The 16 March paper (non peer-reviewed) had three scenarios; ‘do nothing’ (510k deaths), ‘original mitigation’ (250k deaths) and ‘suppression’, ie. on-off lockdown for up to 18 months after an initial phase of 5 months (24k deaths). Of course, the proponents of lockdown will claim it worked based on this, but Sweden is the counterfactual, and our higher death levels are self-inflected from the health and social care policies followed. The SAGE minutes are ‘minutes of minutes’, that is, they have been sanitised for public consumption in full knowledge they would be released long before the normal declassification cycle. We are in essence still following Ferguson’s 16 March ‘suppression’ strategy.

19735 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 2, #799 of 1297 🔗

Someone asked him indeed. Why him? He’s not got a great track record, has he?

19793 ▶▶▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Farinances, 5, #800 of 1297 🔗

It is certainly difficult to fathom, unless gross incompetence or a sinister conspiracy theory. When it was announced that he was responsible for the modelling, the former president of the British cattle veterinary association at the time of the Foot & Mouth epidemic wrote a letter to The Times saying his ‘heart sank’ and cautioning Boris, Sir Patrick Vallance and Professor Whitty to ensure measures taken were proportionate, balanced and practical. They can’t say they weren’t warned!

19808 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 1, #801 of 1297 🔗

One does wonder how much has been redacted from the SAGE minutes… we already know that 4 participants have not allowed their names to be published!

19838 ▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Carrie, 3, #802 of 1297 🔗

We could have a competition to guess those 4 names –

1) Xaaxaarhg, from the Andromeda galaxy
2) Greta
3) CIA London desk chief
4) Paul the octopus, 2010 world cup pundit

19672 ▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to mark baker, 6, #803 of 1297 🔗

I have just watched a short clip on YouTube. As I often find an interesting thing to do, I watched first without the sound then with the sound. A few non-content related things struck me; his attire and look (clean-shaven, blue shirt and tie) and his demeanour (eyes down for most of the time, and when looking up, only half open). In terms of content, in the clip I saw it was significant that he admitted he was wrong on timing (the virus had been circulating here longer than expected, essentially endorsing his ‘arch-rival’ Gupta), and it will likely stay at low levels until September (so no imminent second wave, if at all). He is a busted flush!

19721 ▶▶▶ mark baker, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 4, #804 of 1297 🔗

Blimey, yeah, just watched it too. His eyes are shut almost the whole time! Weird, very uncomfortable body language. And he seems to be owning up to multiple mistakes!

19805 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to mark baker, 1, #805 of 1297 🔗

Probably protecting himself in case there is a public enquiry..

19840 ▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Carrie, 3, #806 of 1297 🔗

– enquiry
+ lynching

19864 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to JohnB, 1, #807 of 1297 🔗

I need some lynching practice. There’s going to be a lot of lynching to do.
Let’s set up a lynch training camp and use Pantsdownfor practice.

19648 Biker, replying to Biker, 2, #808 of 1297 🔗

has anyone a link to the number of flu deaths this year in the UK. I’m sure i read here it’s 44,000 but can’t find out for sure.

19760 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to Letmeout, 2, #810 of 1297 🔗

Thank you. I didn’t find it easy to extract the actual data despite the XLS being available (I blame the iPad, not the website, to be fair). 41,094 is the answer, up to 22nd May.

19654 Cassandra, replying to Cassandra, 148, #811 of 1297 🔗

Hi all. I’m a lurker of some time, but finally got round to creating an account and commenting. Firstly, can I just thank you guys, and this website for keeping me sane these last few months.

For background, I am a doctor, and I work primarily in a hospital setting. Initially, way back in March, I was ambivalent towards the lockdown – I was concerned regarding the precedent it set – and felt very uncomfortable with such a stringent curtailment of rights. However, a lot of my colleagues were sharing pictures etc from Italy, and COVID at that point was an unknown risk – to me at least. Amongst young, fit doctors like me there was a genuine worry that we might become seriously unwell. I was asked to update my next of kin by the trust I worked at, some of my colleagues made wills. There was much anxiety in the medical profession. So I bought into it. I naively believed the lockdown would be a stop gap measure, lasting only a few weeks, as reasonably no country could keep everyone in their house for such a long time period – and no electorate would allow such a thing, right?

As the first three weeks passed, I saw first hand quite how quiet the hospitals were, and how few non-COVID patients we were seeing. Whole wards were empty. On some days, I saw more suicide attempts than COVID. Combined with this was the growing body of information regarding the lethality of this coronavirus – the likely IFR, the propensity for mortality in high risk groups, but not in the young, and the clear evidence of the profound and deleterious effects of lockdown on the population. My mindset shifted, and I no longer saw lockdown as a necessary evil, and coronavirus was no longer an existential threat. I naively assumed that society was having the same realisation. This was not the case.

Over the last few weeks I have become increasingly frustrated and horrified by what has occurred. I cannot understand how we can continue such a wholesale curtailment of freedom, without any real backlash. I am livid at the lack of treatment for cancer patients, and quite how little society seems to care about anything other than COVID. I believe that the effects of lockdown will be far, far more significant than COVID. I am also angry about the fetishisation of the NHS, clap for carers, the TikTok videos and all of the nonsense that has taken place around this. I am involved in none of it, and resent my colleagues that are, because they should know how underserved that praise is, and how much they are letting down patients.

I am angry at the complete lack of empathy shown by huge sections of society. People bleat for more lockdown and the “new normal” to defend themselves against a mild virus. In the meantime, they ignore domestic violence victims locked in houses, children needing education, patients needing treatment that has been withheld, the mental health of millions. It’s so cruel and ruthless. I know fear corrodes empathy, but I am genuinely surprised about how callous people can seem to be.

I am thinking of the new laws regarding sex being illegal between people from different households – surely this is plainly absurd, and a level of intrusion into private lives never seen before. How have people accepted this? I also think about the 2m distancing requirements everywhere – even though this will destroy large sections of the economy. How has there not been a national outcry? What is wrong with people? The rules themselves are horrifying, but more terrifying to me is the complete acceptance of said rules.

I have discussed this with several medical colleagues and they seem to fall into several categories: those that believe the rules should continue and see no issue with them (startling and worrying, considering these are supposed to be rational, empathetic people); those who believe in lockdown, but then are happy to break it, and to suggest that I break it (these are hypocrites); and finally those who also agree that this is mad, but somehow don’t find it all as deeply distressing and as enraging as I do.

Some of my friends (who hold the same views as me) have told me the “new normal” will never be tolerated. That people will revert back to normal, and that society will see how ludicrous this all is. But I no longer trust that to be the case. If in January you had told me that I would be shut in my house for weeks, unable to see anyone aside from at work, I would’ve said that was madness. But we have accepted such a thing wholesale. I no longer trust in the rationality of society to get us out of this, and that scares me.

I have attempted to speak to some people in the media, despite this being forbidden by the trust I work for, but I have had no replies – no one seems interested in my story as it doesn’t fit the narrative.

The final straw was when I myself contracted COVID. I had minimal symptoms aside from a slight cold and a slight a loss of taste and smell. Normally I would not even pay attention to such symptoms. Many of my friends refused to believe it was COVID, as they said I would be sicker. I got a swab anyway and was positive. I was told by pro-lockdown friends that I was very lucky to have it so mildly – I replied saying no, I was the norm. People did not listen. People do not listen to anything that contradicts their view. They are brainwashed.

I have never been more disappointed. I was always maybe a touch idealistic, and went into medicine to help people. I genuinely believed society wouldn’t let people fall between the gaps, and would ultimately be caring and rational. I was a warm fuzzy liberal. I am so upset and angry with what has been permitted. I expected better. I have never been more disappointed to be a doctor, or to be a British citizen.

19717 ▶▶ Gossamer, replying to Cassandra, 33, #812 of 1297 🔗

Hi Cassandra. Wow, your post is so beautifully and eloquently expressed. Your sense of frustration and horror -both at the government overreach and society’s acceptance if it- is palpable, and reflects what so many of us here are thinking. Thanks for giving us your professional insight.

19725 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Cassandra, 26, #813 of 1297 🔗

Welcome home, Cassandra. I recognise your sense of alienation, your bemusement at how such insanity could come to pass, your outrage at the calamitous costs so casually incurred and dismissed from concern, as features common to most of us here, from all political backgrounds.

Remember who was most responsible for what has been inflicted upon us. Don’t let them slither away without consequences.

19729 ▶▶ Bob, replying to Cassandra, 13, #814 of 1297 🔗

Great insight, Cassandra. Thanks for sharing. I’m sure Toby would be interesting about your experiences. There are branches of media that will listen.

19730 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Cassandra, 23, #815 of 1297 🔗


In one post you have restored my faith in the medical profession. Even if you’re the minority. There must be more of you out there, beyond you and Dr John Lee (who is retired, so even he kinda doesn’t count). Also the other guy on here who is a doctor.

Thanks for your post, maybe Toby can publish it.

19737 ▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to Cassandra, 10, #816 of 1297 🔗

You might want to contact Anna Brees, an independent journalist doing interviews with all sorts of people on Youtube. She is an ex-ITV and ex-BBC journalist. Have a look:
It’s all in there. The ones I’ve seen have been very good.

19745 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Cassandra, 13, #817 of 1297 🔗

Thank you for your post Cassandra, and welcome. It is good to hear your side of what is happening at the moment. Sometimes I feel that we are the crazy ones, but then along comes a post like yours, and I know we are not.

19783 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to CarrieAH, 5, #818 of 1297 🔗

Hell no, we’ve never been the crazies. In fact it’s given me a bit of an ego trip knowing more about the truth than most of the idiots out there.. I feel sorry for the mentally weak sheep, it’s the opportunist wokey extremists that you really have to watch out for. They need to be cut down in size swiftly and brutally.

We can wait a little while for the ones like piers gobshite Morgan. He’s either thick as shit to believe all this or just a preening narcissist.

19776 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Cassandra, 5, #819 of 1297 🔗

Great post and welcome! I feel for you and recognise how you feel because I’m the same as well, I can articulate my thoughts to a few people but definitely not to my wider workplace or even to my family (except for my husband and father-in-law). Thank you so much for stating what its really like in your profession and like you I’m not surprised that this crisis has exposed people’s general lack of compassion and empathy.

19777 ▶▶ ianp, replying to Cassandra, 9, #820 of 1297 🔗

Great post! Welcome to our world… I feel you just have to count the small victories every day, personally I collect the ridiculous social distancing articles and share them with the apathetic – err haribo packet masks ?! 😆 . The damage is sadly already done and it’s only going one way now, our way. But what concerns me more is the end games, because none of this is about a poxy virus, I am fairly convinced of that… !

19792 ▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Cassandra, 4, #821 of 1297 🔗

Very well said. And it needed saying. I’ve been on this site since its inception increasingly staggered at what is being allowed to happen with very little objection from the majority of people

19803 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Cassandra, 6, #822 of 1297 🔗

So well written! Please do ask Toby to help you get your views published to a wider audience – he does reply to emails. Alternatively Hector Drummond publishes articles on his website, and Simon Dolan puts articles onto his Twitter feed. Or you could see if James Delingpole will interview you for his Delingpod – you could always ask if they could use a voice distorter to protect your privacy.. Just a few ideas..

19816 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Cassandra, 5, #823 of 1297 🔗

You are intelligent, but above all SANE. No-one can take that away from you. It’s frustrating, but better than being brainwashed.

19852 ▶▶ RDawg, replying to Cassandra, 6, #824 of 1297 🔗

Hi Cassandra,

May I suggest that you copy and paste your post verbatim and send it to:
– Your Local MP
– The news desk of every single newspaper we have (I know you said you tried?)
– The news desk of every TV channel g

This needs to be heard by the masses.

19854 ▶▶▶ RDawg, replying to RDawg, 3, #825 of 1297 🔗

Email Toby (realtobyyoung@gmail.com)

19856 ▶▶ Peter Thompson, replying to Cassandra, 9, #826 of 1297 🔗

Welcome Cassandra ! There are a few medics actually lurking on this board. I have found that scepticism has been quite marked among my colleagues and it often manifests itself as cynicism .
I continue to be amazed however at the gullability of the general public. When I hear a patient say , ” sorry to bother you know, I know how busy you are ” I just want to shout out the truth.
The reality is as sure as those pretty rainbow drawings fade in the June light this period of madness will end and I hope those responsable for this stupidity will be held to account.

19861 ▶▶ Paul, replying to Cassandra, 9, #827 of 1297 🔗

What a brilliant post Casandra,it needs sharing to a much wider audience.Our daughter works at the local hospital and her views are pretty much the same as yours,in fact only this evening she has been appraising me of the latest barmy rules that are being implemented at the hospital this week.
I too am extremely disappointed with the subservient reaction of the majority of the British population and I often wonder what my ancestors would think,especially the ones that died in the second world war.

19877 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Cassandra, 3, #828 of 1297 🔗

Great to get your perspective Cassandra. I was wondering why doctors were being so quiet in all this.

I suspect that there are a lot of people who hold the same view as yourself (and us) but are possibly scared to speak out about it and risk being outed as a “witch” (I liken the situation we’re in to the Salem witch trials in case you’re wondering).

I’m as disappointed as you are but in the human race as a whole. The most frustrating thing is that there are very limited options for us to actually do anything about it.

I would say that this can never be allowed to happen again but it would be dangerous to block it completely as sometime in the future there may be a greater threat that we would need to enforce strong measures for. There must be checks and balances put in place to ensure it is not so easy to do this to us in future.

19904 ▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Nobody2020, 1, #829 of 1297 🔗

Salem witch trials is a good analogy and since Arthur Miller’s play The Crucible is set then but really about McCarthyism we have today a perfect illustration as to how hysteria is more infectious than a bloody virus.

19920 ▶▶ Fed up, replying to Cassandra, 4, #830 of 1297 🔗

The fetishism of the NHS is just part of the warped groupthink as well as being a clever way to distract us from the truth that our civil liberties have been taken away from us.

19934 ▶▶ BTLnewbie, replying to Cassandra, 4, #831 of 1297 🔗

Well said (and bravely). I get the impression that NHS staff are being threatened not to disclose the actual position on the ground.

I would love to know the make-up of the 500-700 ‘new cases’ being referred to hospital each day, as to me (given the rapidly falling mortality rate) these numbers seem high. Also, IMHO, they are the only numbers that matter; if you get the virus sufficiently seriously to need to be hospitalised, this is a genuine cause for concern. I’ve had bad flu, but not that bad!

In your experience (and that of other front-line doctors on this site) are there many cases being referred which are:

  1. being infected while in hospital for other reasons, hence being treated as ‘new Covid cases’
  2. being transferred to hospital from care / nursing homes with Covid

ie (in both cases) nosocomial infections.

I suspect that the level of ‘hospitalisable infection’ arising from being out and about in a normal daily business and social setting is relatively trivial, but without statistics, it’s hard to persuade Jo & Joanna Public (and more importantly their children) of this. [It makes me weep to see 10-year-olds being brainwashed into shying away from me while passing me in the street – this is unforgiveable].

The lower these numbers, the less relevant the lockdown as a solution, and the greater the culpability for its (quite foreseeable) consequences).

19939 ▶▶ Barnabas, replying to Cassandra, 4, #832 of 1297 🔗

Excellent post Cassandra. Thank you for candid insight on the real situation inside the NHS and the differing views held by medical professionals.

It is staggering how swathes of the population are not motivated to speak out about the treacherous imposition on our civil liberties in this country on a scale not seen before in living memory. It is a very sad reflection of the society that we live in that the government has been able to brainwash so many and perpetuate the lies.

However, this is the forum where you can freely express your views on these matters.

20447 ▶▶ Al Churchill, replying to Cassandra, 2, #833 of 1297 🔗

Sorry for responding after the event as it were. Your comments resonated because at the start of the crisis my GP friends were very relaxed. They were of the opinion that it didn’t seem significantly more dangerous than flu etc. 12 weeks later (even though the evidence supports their initial view) they are now massive lockdown proponents and even argued that it was too soon for school to go back (note their children have been schooled the whole time because of key worker status). The cynic in me says, well they are no longer going to the surgery and are doing remote (and less) video consultations, they talk openly about having more time for themselves, so are they just lapping up the new normal? Do they like being less busy and to hell with the untold damage being done on individuals and society? I really don’t know, but I suspect and it makes me very disheartened

23341 ▶▶▶ Amanda, replying to Al Churchill, #834 of 1297 🔗

Al…I don’t know what to say.

21479 ▶▶ Maud Boggins, replying to Cassandra, #835 of 1297 🔗

Cassandra please feel free to contact me at fiona @ storkforlife. I am researching this very subject for publishing.

21558 ▶▶ Olive, replying to Cassandra, 2, #836 of 1297 🔗

I could not agree more with your argument. I have been utterly bewildered by the reaction of this country, and am witnessing first hand the destruction of the lockdown on my children’s education, their sports fitness, their enthusiasm for life. I am still regarded by most of the people I speak to as radical and outspoken, and so this website truly keeps me sane in realising that I am not alone at all with my thoughts. I love liberty and I cannot countenance anyone who would willingly give it up over a virus that will not affect most families anywhere near as much as this appalling lockdown. And the slow speed that we are emerging from it is even more painful than the previous three months have been as my small business shudders towards no income at all, one child still awaits an urgent eye appointment that curtails their ability to home school, and a friend who should have had urgent cancer treatment in March remains unseen and uncared for. Not to mention the larger picture of everyone in a far worse boat than me. We should be protesting about it on a massive scale. But I am also, like you, coming to believe that my wonderful country is getting what it miserably deserves with its fake concern and outrageous moral compass.

21590 ▶▶ Michelle Mitchell, replying to Cassandra, 2, #837 of 1297 🔗

Hi Cassandra. Thank you for your honesty and willingness to speak out against this madness. I read your post with interest. My husband and I are truly shocked at how quickly people have been scared into submission – and that worries us tremendously.

21830 ▶▶ Steve Hayes, replying to Cassandra, #838 of 1297 🔗

Cassandra, you rhetorically ask: What is wrong with people? And yet you admit that you bought into the hysterical fear-mongering. The whole coronavirus mania was obviously a case of collective madness. The “lockdown” measures were obviously going to cause more harm than the virus ever could. And this was obvious before they were implemented. If you as an educated person were unable to see this as a case of collective madness, why do you think everyone else ought to be able to do so?

23337 ▶▶▶ Amanda, replying to Steve Hayes, 1, #839 of 1297 🔗

Steve…a tad harsh. Cassandra is in a difficult situation and came here for support, not to be mocked.

19665 DJC, replying to DJC, 43, #840 of 1297 🔗

Hello from Paris. Reading the comments here, I get the impression that the UK is perhaps a fortnight or so behind what is happening here. There has been a sea change over the last couple of weeks, which is particularly visible today. I just popped down to my local supermarket to buy a few pints of milk, passing on my way two crowded café terrasses with smiling (unmasked) people enjoying the glorious Spring sunshine and each others company. The parks are open again. I strolled through the Tuileries gardens this afternoon and one could almost imagine that this Corona madness had been a bizarre nightmare. There are still masked people in the streets, but their number is diminishing daily as, it appears, the lights are coming on again in people’s minds. There are noisy motorbikes and loud teenagers and fire alarms. I never thought I would appreciate urban noise so much! Hold in there, UK friends, freedom is coming!

19700 ▶▶ Julian, replying to DJC, 4, #841 of 1297 🔗

Lovely to hear it and thanks for the update. What rules are in place in venues and buildings, workplaces etc. regarding distancing? Here, nothing is allowed to open unless it’s at least pretended to go through the hoops of being covid-safe, modifying buildings and processes to make sure everyone can keep 2 metres away from eachother.

19773 ▶▶▶ DJC, replying to Julian, 4, #842 of 1297 🔗

I’m not sure what “rules” are in place, the authorities have arbitrarily divided up the country into different coloured “zones” with different rules. All nonsense. The folk seem to be voting with their feet and ignoring the official lunacy. One thing I’ve noticed is that younger people (those least at harm…) seem to be the most zealous with their masks and bizarre behavior, but even then I see many young people behaving normally. These crazy rules are simply not workable in a great metropolis like Paris (and even more so in London I expect).

19813 ▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to DJC, 2, #843 of 1297 🔗

They are not really workable anywhere. But for now, they are in the process of being imposed and organisations and businesses will find them hard to ignore, as they find it hard to completely ignore general health and safety and “compliance” regulations.

My daughter’s university have said lectures are likely to be online at least for the first term, and they are “considering” making mask-wearing compulsory on campus.

19715 ▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to DJC, 12, #845 of 1297 🔗

Thank you for that. Whatever country we are in, ordinary folks are having their lives ruined by an incompetent and illiberal ruling elite. Revenge will be sweet!

19799 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 2, #846 of 1297 🔗

Oh I do hope so!

19723 ▶▶ coalencanth12, replying to DJC, 5, #847 of 1297 🔗

My collaborator in Grenoble reports life largely back to normal and many scientists back in work!!!

19798 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to DJC, #848 of 1297 🔗

Great news. Enjoy yours!

19804 ▶▶ Poppy, replying to DJC, 4, #849 of 1297 🔗

So happy to hear this. I want nothing more than to go back to total normality.

19862 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Poppy, 3, #850 of 1297 🔗

So do we all, Poppy.
And it will happen.
Hsng on in there.

19860 ▶▶ annie, replying to DJC, 4, #851 of 1297 🔗

Are there any serviceable guillotines left in France? If so, could we borrow one?
We could then give some if our Covibullies a nice haircut.

19867 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to DJC, 9, #852 of 1297 🔗

Great to hear, but unfortunately I think Britain is a special case. We have decided to commit national suicide. While other countries ignore the “new normal” and just get on with it, Britain will relish the petty rules and the opportunity to virtue-signal. Our prime minister is very weak and without principles – or a spine. He doesn’t understand science. He is following public opinion, which is dictated by the media who hate him. It’s a pathetic mess.

19891 ▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Barney McGrew, 4, #853 of 1297 🔗

I agree. I’m not sure if Boris is in charge any more – has anybody seen him recently? He is apparently set to ‘take back control’ of the virus chaos by reorganising his top team. The problem is none of them has a spine or any scientific knowledge either. Prince William’s former aid is now in place in the Cabinet Office – is this a coup?

20029 ▶▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Tyneside Tigress, #854 of 1297 🔗

He hasn’t recovered from his mental breakdown bout of Covid a few weeks back.

19938 ▶▶ BTLnewbie, replying to DJC, 2, #855 of 1297 🔗

From my experience of the French, they always thought that laws and rules were a challenge to be overcome. I always used to prefer the British respect for “playing by the rules”, but if ever this was a case for adopting the French attitude, this is it!
I have been telling friends that the dam will burst faster then they can imagine, but they still say “we are unlocking too fast” 🙁

19675 Poppy, replying to Poppy, 28, #856 of 1297 🔗

I can’t be the only one whose blood pressure goes through the roof when she reads Piers Morgan’s Twatter feed. The way he acts like some investigative journalist crusader, getting the ‘truth’ for the ‘great British public’ while peddling all the same lies as the MSM is just breathtakingly disingenuous. He just bangs on and on and on about the UK having the ‘highest death rate’ in the world, without actually investigating the data as to why this is (if it’s true at all), simply putting it down to ‘government incompetence’. And that childish finger emoji he uses to emphasise all the misinformation he spreads – I know one place where that finger should go…!

I would love nothing more than to see him seriously dissected at the enquiry for spreading these lies and being complicit in the government’s campaign of terror. Given his history I would have expected him to be on the side of the lockdown sceptics but I guess he just regurgitates whatever will get him the most approval on social media.

19677 ▶▶ Bumble, replying to Poppy, 15, #857 of 1297 🔗

He should be held dorectly responsible for the wave of cancer, mental health and other problems which are coming down the line in the next few years.

19681 ▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Poppy, 19, #858 of 1297 🔗

Poppy, don’t watch him. Or others like him. It’s affecting your physical health. There’s no reason to have Piers Morgan in your life.

19684 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 17, #859 of 1297 🔗

Remember: every metre you step away from Poison Morgan reduces his toxicity by 50 per cent.

19690 ▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 7, #860 of 1297 🔗

I have been avoiding his awful Twitter feed lately but I was just commenting on here in case anyone felt the same. I just want to see people like him brought to justice for the harm they cause

19756 ▶▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Poppy, #861 of 1297 🔗

I don’t feel the same because I never watch him. I never watch him because on the rare occasions I saw him on the media (around about 2003) I thought his energy was so toxic I couldn’t be doing with him. There are such things as psychic vampires and Morgan is one of them. Isobel Oakeshott and Julia Hartley-Brewer are another two. You really can get a fractured psyche if you let these people into your energy field. Psychic/energy vampires are self-centred, spread fear and always think they are right. More crucially they enrage you and feed off your rage. That Hopkins woman is another one. That’s why Twitter is so unhealthy, it enables this stuff. You don’t have to be in the same proximity to be drained by these people.

19781 ▶▶▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 8, #862 of 1297 🔗

Adding an addendum to that: ‘psychic vampirism’ is a bit new-age-ish. What I’m getting at is that people who enrage you, taunt you, infuriate you are all, whether conscious or not, draining your energy and since it is pointless trying to change their minds as it’s impossible, then it’s best to steer clear. Much better for your health. Conversely, if you agree with them then they ain’t draining your energy.

19795 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Poppy, 2, #863 of 1297 🔗

I don’t have Twitter myself and the only people whose feeds I look at are fellow sceptics like Toby, James Delingpole, Peter Hitchens, Simon Dolan and a few others..

19796 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 1, #864 of 1297 🔗

He certainly isn’t in mine!

19692 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Poppy, 4, #865 of 1297 🔗

I can only agree with the rest – boycott and run for the hills!

19696 ▶▶ OKUK, replying to Poppy, 6, #866 of 1297 🔗

Like that other nutjob, Alistair Campbell, Morgan thinks if he says something enough times and very loudly it becomes true, even though it’s a lie. Belgium has the worst Covid-19 death rate by far. If we’re looking at excess deaths, well that could be as much to do with lockdown, e.g. aged people being deprived of loving contact with their families.

19697 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Poppy, 3, #867 of 1297 🔗

He also promised that he would visit his parents (break the lockdown) unless Cummings was fired that specific night (think it was a Sunday), that hasn’t happened – coward!!!

19746 ▶▶ TJN, replying to Poppy, 8, #868 of 1297 🔗

Ahh, the wonderful Piers Morgan. Some readers on here with longer memories may recall his time as Daily Mirror editor and the ‘City Slickers’ page, written by two ‘journalists’ whose names don’t matter now. Just to make clear the point that the DTI cleared Morgan of any charges relating to a very large purchase of Viglen shares, shortly before they were tipped by the ‘City Slickers’ as a good buy. That Morgan emptied his bank account to purchase the shares and did so in his wife’s name was just how it goes – presumably the sort of thing all of us do from time to time.

I just wanted to clear this up. Nothing wrong here.

The two ‘City Slickers’ were later convicted under the Financial Services Act, for tipping shares in companies in which they held stock. But just to reiterate that Morgan did nothing wrong.

19830 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to TJN, #869 of 1297 🔗

Nice. Thanks, TJN.

19857 ▶▶▶ hhh631, replying to TJN, 3, #870 of 1297 🔗

Don’t forget his sacking at the Mirror after publishing fake photos of soldiers allegedly torturing Iraqi civilians. The man is morally empty in every way.

19972 ▶▶▶▶ TJN, replying to hhh631, 1, #871 of 1297 🔗

Yes, those photo’s were obviously suspect right from the start. They didn’t look right. Pretty clear fakes I would say, and later easily shown to be so. But that didn’t stop him publishing them, and thus presumably inciting reprisals against British troops then serving in Iraq.

19887 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to TJN, 3, #872 of 1297 🔗

share that on his twitter feed….

19969 ▶▶▶▶ TJN, replying to ianp, 2, #873 of 1297 🔗

It’s all on wiki. I’ve had to be careful here on individual words and the phrases used. It’s tempting to stray into my own verbs and adjectives, but have tried to keep to those already in the public domain. I don’t want to get TY into trouble.

But to reiterate. The DTI found that Morgan did nothing wrong.

Imagine you’re the editor of a national newspaper. You like the look of a share, and empty you bank account to buy a very large number in your wife’s name. And then, lo and behold, a little while later your ‘city editors’ tip that share in your paper’s ‘financial’ section. How horrifying that must be. Still, one can’t help being lucky.

It was nice of the DTI to clear things up.

19919 ▶▶ AidanR, replying to Poppy, 1, #874 of 1297 🔗

And at the same time, his wife is writing Telegraph opinion columns.

I don’t know who coined the term ‘controlled opposition’ but it fits.

19970 ▶▶▶ TJN, replying to AidanR, #875 of 1297 🔗

She’s his second wife, not the one referred to in my post above.

19682 Bumble, replying to Bumble, 4, #876 of 1297 🔗

Does anyone know the breakdown of the c1500 new cases daily by setting ? Community, hospital in patient and care home. Testing open to all now so I would like to know how much in the community. Here in Dorset the numbers were low single figures a couple of weeks ago. If community cases are low, nothing for track and trace to do which seems to be the case right now.

19704 ▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Bumble, #877 of 1297 🔗

Here is the link:


Today’s number of 1613 positive tests splits 528 in hospitals and 1085 in wider community.

19747 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 3, #878 of 1297 🔗

Thanks for that. But the more interesting question is, how do you break down the non-hospital results? A third of the positive tests are hospitals, roughly, but where do the others come from? And wouldn’t it make some sense to try to find out?

19790 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to matt, #879 of 1297 🔗

Is it a combination of staff and patients? I did see somewhere (I forget where) that the number of tests being carried out is a fudge anyway, with a lot of double-counting..

19931 ▶▶▶ Bumble, replying to Tyneside Tigress, #880 of 1297 🔗

Thank you

19711 ▶▶ matt, replying to Bumble, 6, #881 of 1297 🔗

Jonathan Van Tam was asked something along these lines at one of the press briefings over the weekend (I must, I must, I _must_ stop watching these). The question was along the lines of “after 10 weeks of lockdown, who are all of these people who were catching the virus?” His answer was along the lines of “no, I don’t know who it is who is catching this.” He did it in his usual sneering, supercilious way, but _surely_ we should know what kind of person or groups of people are getting infected, or where they are at this point? This isn’t about track and trace, but none of the rest of what’s going on can possibly be justified if we can’t explain what’s happening at the moment.

19788 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to matt, #882 of 1297 🔗

Out of interest, who asked the question?

19809 ▶▶▶ Tom Blackburn, replying to matt, 5, #883 of 1297 🔗

Peter Hitchens is spot on – it’s like the Emperor’s New Clothes. Nobody willing to call this nonsense out for what it is

19941 ▶▶▶ BTLnewbie, replying to matt, #884 of 1297 🔗

Yes, this is the key question and needs following up. The source of the newly hospitalised cases needs analysing, to stop spreading the fear.

19693 annie, replying to annie, 14, #885 of 1297 🔗

I gather from the DT that there are calls for the reopening of public lavatories, as beauty spots are being fouled.
Now which is the greater health rusk: a vanishingly small chance of getting the Covibug, or mass public defecation?

19699 ▶▶ Mark, replying to annie, 4, #886 of 1297 🔗

Particularly irritating for dog owners, who have been harassed and bullied for years into picking up dog waste (not unreasonably, in town). It’s very noticeable that many of the people who during the coronapanic have been using the park adjacent to my house as a toilet haven’t bothered with poo bags for their own deposits!

19794 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Mark, #887 of 1297 🔗

My park has had the sense to keep the loos open.

19718 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to annie, 3, #888 of 1297 🔗

We know the answer to that question. Unfortunately the morons that make up the government, civil service, police, scientists don’t – this lot need to be sent to re-education camps to learn about the Great Stink of the 1850s

19724 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to annie, 11, #889 of 1297 🔗

Return to the middle ages* in the name of ‘safety’ achieved.

1) Lock everyone in their homes indefinitely – which is actually something even the despots of 700 years ago never actually managed.
2) Deprive everyone of any medical care that’s not for the dreaded Covid – again something that the medievals never did during an actual PLAGUE.
3) Actively encouraging public defecation and urination by virtue of not giving a frig about hygiene – unless again for so-called protection from dreaded Covid.
4) Witch-hunting, stock-pelting and public harassment of dissenters.
5) Ignorance of self-evident sense in fabour of cow-towing to an invisible enemy / God (sacred NCS).

*No besmirchment of the middle ages intended, remarkably. My favourite period in history and the one from which all our modern advancements spring.

19726 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Farinances, 3, #890 of 1297 🔗

… and some great swords.

19903 ▶▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Mark, 1, #891 of 1297 🔗

Great swords? Or Greatswords?

19942 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Mark, #893 of 1297 🔗

The latter admittedly a little late in style for middle ages, strictly speaking….

19909 ▶▶ AidanR, replying to annie, -6, #894 of 1297 🔗

There won’t be mass public defecation. 99% of people wouldn’t have a shit in a public toilet if their trousers depended on it.

In fact, if this marks the complete end of ‘public conveniences’ I’ll do a little dance. They were always terrible.

20358 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to AidanR, 1, #895 of 1297 🔗

Most people will avoid them if possible but if you’re a visitor and in need, they are essential. Some councils look after them better than others. Our local ones were always pretty abysmal. Holidays in North Wales with small children proved they can be kept acceptably clean if the motivation is there.

While cafes are closed, it’s essential that public loos are open. It’s no good insisting on unworkable social distancing measures in small businesses, on health grounds, if you’re happy to create a more serious health hazard by refusing to provide the public with toilets.

19710 OKUK, replying to OKUK, 25, #896 of 1297 🔗

The mainstream media is pathetic. Although Belgium has by far the worst Covid-19 death rate in the world, the focus has been on Italy and Spain. Belgium has had virtually no coverage. Doctors in Northern Italy state that the disease has mutated into a less severe form of the disease? True? Any investigation? No. Iceland many weeks ago stated that there were some 4000 mutations. Cambridge scientists say there are three strains and some form of Covid could have been circulating since October 2019…any real follow up? No. What’s the real story in Belarus – according to the lockdown theorists they should be now suffering hundreds of thousands of deaths…has that happened? Why has Africa not suffered a lot more with the disease? How many people successfully fend off the disease with first line defences, not needing to develop antibodies – despite exposure to the virus? I’ve read that the virus is constantly mutating within victims’ bodies.

Just a few of the issues they should be covering in depth.

It seems to me the media could have done much more to investigate and enlighten. Instead they have chosen to see this as an extension of their “Get Boris” campaign, which has been running for about the last 10 years. Not to say the Government does not merit severe criticism over its lack of preparedness and woeful response to the PPE shortage and care home crisis.

19713 ▶▶ mark baker, replying to OKUK, 11, #897 of 1297 🔗

Agreed. The media doesn’t follow anything up. The only story they’ve consistently pursued over a few days is the Dominic Cummings one.

19751 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to mark baker, 7, #898 of 1297 🔗

And its obvious that they don’t keep up pace with studies and developments abroad not to mention they don’t really report what’s going on for instance the allegations that the death figures are being fudged, etc.

19836 ▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to mark baker, #899 of 1297 🔗

Cummings is a vessel for – and handy topic of – rhetoric. Rhetoric is inherently empty. It means to motivate people to do things because of their invoked emotions.

Discussions about fact are dialectic. This thing is true, that thing is false.

The people eat up rhetoric, but have zero interest in dialectic. People with Oxford shirts and unusual spectacles like dialectic.

Thus one of our key paths to truth is obstructed.

19714 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to OKUK, 26, #900 of 1297 🔗

Yes indeed. The real villains of the piece, for me, are the media.

The government are feckless idiots who are also villains – now, a full 7 weeks after they should have scrapped lockdown anyway.

But the media are at least in part responsible for that policy also, and certainly more than culpable now for its extension. They’re not feckless at all imo – they’re consciously invested in having their cake and eating it i.e. being used as organs of propaganda whilst also elevating themselves to ‘saviour’ ‘noble fouth estate’ status. Look at the state of Piers Morgan. His narcissism eclipses all desire to actually figure out what is really going on.

19791 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Farinances, 4, #901 of 1297 🔗

Just made the mistake of having a quick look at the Grad for the lastest official news.

Once I’d finished cleaning the sick-bucket, I was happy to find this breath of comon sense in the Torygraph:

19908 ▶▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to Cheezilla, 1, #902 of 1297 🔗

The Tellygiraffe only appears adequate when you put it next to the Graun.

20008 ▶▶▶▶ Victoria, replying to Cheezilla, 3, #903 of 1297 🔗


Great article Allison Pearson.
“Sorry, I’m not doing it any more. Lockdown is over for me and for millions of others I’m quite sure. Sanity demands it. We must go on making sure that the most vulnerable are shielded, of course we must. But any chapter in our national story which contains the phrase, “BORIS BANS BONKING” has well and truly lost the plot. So, to the scientists of SAGE, we say, Thank for your advice, Brains, but there are more things in heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy. Like sex with a person you don’t live with and schools where children can hug each other and a Briton’s inalienable right to pee in a loo not a bush. They have taken a liberty with us. Now, we take our liberty right back.”

19814 ▶▶▶ Nic, replying to Farinances, 1, #904 of 1297 🔗

Anybody like to guess when the lockdown might end? I month 2 months I year 10 years!

19907 ▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to Farinances, -1, #905 of 1297 🔗

The media have simply done what is in their commercial interest. We can hate them, but we can’t blame them for responding to their relevant price signals.

19924 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to AidanR, 2, #906 of 1297 🔗

The politicians have simply done what is in their political interest.

You wanna let them off too?

20318 ▶▶▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to Farinances, #907 of 1297 🔗

You’re right, they have. This is why I reserve much of my ire for the general public who keep voting for them and demanding fruit from the magic money tree.

19716 ▶▶ matt, replying to OKUK, 8, #908 of 1297 🔗

A lot of this is down to how science actually works (as opposed to how the kind of person who claims to be “following the science” actually thinks it works. The answers are respectively: don’t know yet; don’t know yet; don’t know yet; don’t know yet; don’t know yet.

And part of the problem has been that the answer to the question “what’s going to happen?” when asked in March was “don’t know yet” but now, there’s no obvious answer to the next question “how do we get away with having got it so wrong without looking stupid?”

19727 Fiat, replying to Fiat, 13, #909 of 1297 🔗

Sitting in my local park. Full of families enjoying the lovely cool evening weather. Hardly a mask in sight. I’ve counted three. One might almost forget that the world is back to normal but, of course, the whirlwind is on its way…..

19787 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Fiat, 2, #910 of 1297 🔗

Went for a walk in my local park this afternoon. Masks have never really caught on round here so I was surprised to see people wearing masks. Then I realised the inner, unmasked person was Downs syndrome and the outer, mask-wearing two must have been carers. Looked weird though!

19741 Bart Simpson, 12, #911 of 1297 🔗

Greetings fellow Sceptics.

Today I did my first bus journey in over two months as being fed up with my neighbourhood, I decided to journey to Golders Green and walk for a bit of Hampstead Heath. I had to do two bus journeys but it was OK, not many covid zombies and the bus drivers were all as they were – no PPE, no gloves, no masks.

When I arrived at the heath, it felt like it was normal – again no masks, people were simply strolling, picnicking, playing tennis, chatting, etc. I did a bit of a walk then sat down to read my book. All in all it was a good day, and I felt better for getting out of my neighbourhood.

The only downside is because the toilets are shut, I had to be careful in case I step on or smell any waste caused by people being forced to answer the call of nature behind bushes and trees.

19743 Nobody2020, replying to Nobody2020, 13, #912 of 1297 🔗

Worth watching tonights After the Pandemic on Sky News. There’s a person there telling it like it is and that the lockdowns were a big mistake.

19762 ▶▶ ianp, replying to Nobody2020, 13, #913 of 1297 🔗

That’ll be a first for sky news… They come a close second to the BBC for lying propaganda

19778 ▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Nobody2020, #914 of 1297 🔗

Assume Stephen Moore, as the other three are all ‘progressives’?

19780 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 4, #915 of 1297 🔗

Yes. Was quite frustrating watching the other 3 tbh. At least I learned that Trump is probably a lockdown sceptic, who’d have thought.

19827 ▶▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Nobody2020, #916 of 1297 🔗

One of the best bits of TV after the financial crisis was Stiglitz vs Hugh Hendry on Newsnight – here’s the link:


Trump has a little too much on his hands at the moment, but I am pretty sure he will find a way to blame this all on the proponents of lockdown, the Democrats and China.

19761 mjr, replying to mjr, 12, #917 of 1297 🔗

Have we seen the new tv advert that seems to have started today… how track and trace will work .. and the mandatory 2 week self isolation if we are traced…. so wonder what infringement of civil liberties will be put in place to get that to work.

19771 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to mjr, 5, #918 of 1297 🔗

We already have the non-curfew-curfew.

19782 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to mjr, 2, #919 of 1297 🔗

Does it say it is mandatory to download the app?nSince when was owning a smartphone and carrying it on you at all times a legal requirement?

19834 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Carrie, 2, #920 of 1297 🔗

Exactly, it’s totally ridiculous and they know it

19806 ▶▶ guy153, replying to mjr, 13, #921 of 1297 🔗

I’ve not seen the ad and don’t intend to but I think the idea is if you get ill you contact all your friends and check with them if it’s OK for you to give their details to the government. If they ask why you’re calling you say it has nothing to do with Covid and not to worry.

You then phone the government who put their personal details into a crashy and insecure IT system, which they also back up onto an SD card that they leave on a train.

Some time later one of the government’s crack sleuths goes some way towards earning his £10 an hour by retrieving whichever of those details the system sees fit to spit back out, randomly mixed with those of anyone else with a similar last name, contacts some of those people and tells them they should be extremely worried because they might have Covid. By this time they may also have been contacted by any number of well-spoken yet temporarily indigent Nigerian princes, employees of their bank, British Telecom and nubile Russians.

19812 ▶▶▶ arfurmo, replying to guy153, 1, #922 of 1297 🔗

£16.97-27.15 an hour .

19859 ▶▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to arfurmo, #923 of 1297 🔗

Good money for an ambitious young man, that.

19876 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to guy153, 4, #924 of 1297 🔗

Legally you cannot be forced to give a tracer the names of people you have had contact with..

19810 ▶▶ Nic, replying to mjr, 7, #925 of 1297 🔗

It wont work on me as I wont download it!

19863 ▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to Nic, 1, #926 of 1297 🔗

It’s emerging that if you have an iPhone, you don’t get the option. It’s in the system. Already pushed out.

Suddenly the more distributed and less timely Android model isn’t looking so bad.

You have less chance of being spied on by Western governments with a Huawei Android phone than you have with an iPhone.

I have to laugh…

19874 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to AidanR, 1, #927 of 1297 🔗

I downloaded the latest iPhone update before I was made aware of this .. but if you read what it says in the software update, the software includes functions to make the tracking app work, it does not include the app itself…But to be safe I have switched off bluetooth..

19883 ▶▶▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Carrie, #928 of 1297 🔗

I don’t have an iphone but check if there is an option in the settings around ‘background bluetooth services’… my android phone has that. Make sure if there is such a thing you disable that too

19905 ▶▶▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to Carrie, 1, #929 of 1297 🔗

You can’t fully switch off bluetooth or any sort of location tracking on a modern iPhone.

19977 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to AidanR, 1, #930 of 1297 🔗

No, but you can switch off the phone.

20137 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to AidanR, #931 of 1297 🔗

True. I have a biscuit tin Faraday cage for my work-enforced iphone. 🙂

20319 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to JohnB, #932 of 1297 🔗

Does it work? Are you running a current through it?

20688 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to AidanR, #933 of 1297 🔗

No need. Alternating conductive/non-conductive layers do the job too.
I have tested using a metal biscuit tin, a non-conductive layer cardboard or somesuch (shortbread works 🙂 ), then inside that the phone wrapped in foil.
Tested by calling the phone, and also by checking for wifi when hotspot is turned on. No ringtone, no wifi.
My tinfoil hat keeps asking me if these things are really off when turned off. 🙂 A risk I wasn’t happy to run.

20000 ▶▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Carrie, #934 of 1297 🔗

Yes that’s just the service that the app uses. The same with Android. You can turn it off.

The government app wasn’t going to use that originally (they had privacy concerns about it– they were worried it was too private). So they decided to roll their own but then gave up. Now they are going back to trying to stick NHS logos and traffic light graphics on the builtin Android and Apple services. But this is also delayed. So currently I don’t think there is an app available at all.

The Android/Apple services are much better designed and anonymized but I wouldn’t bother installing the app as it’s just an invitation to our bungling and incompetent government to put their foot in your business, and anyway the epidemic has been and gone.

If we were right at the start there might have been some benefit to it and some tradeoffs worth considering. Under those circumstances I would have temporarily installed something based on the Android/Apple services.

19978 ▶▶▶ mjr, replying to Nic, #935 of 1297 🔗

if it has a chinese chip in it then you are already being tracked anyway….

19828 ▶▶ OKUK, replying to mjr, 11, #936 of 1297 🔗

None of it makes sense. Suddenly it’s only people who have been in close contact with an infected person for more than 15 minutes who are going to be contacted…so why have we had all the paranoia about shopping if you need 15 minutes of close contact to cause an infection…? Of course you can be in close contact with a stranger for 15 minutes on a crowded tube train but contacts will not be made in that case.

Really, can we believe that somewhere like the UK with tens of millions of people resident (many from overseas) and perhaps a million illegal migrants, can do effective tracing and testing followed by voluntary self-isolation. We’ve been told 25% of people are asymptomatic
and we’ve been told a significant number of people are “super-spreaders”.

None of the main planks of the lockdown theory make sense. Remember all during the supposed “lockdown” we’ve had 11 million people going to work,mixing with other workers and then mixing with their households – all those people , maybe 25 million in total were mixing with the rest of us supposedly on “lockdown” in supermarkets.

19892 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to OKUK, 11, #937 of 1297 🔗


I’ve been one of those 11 million. Granted I was sat at home for the first 6 weeks most of the time doing my thing remotely, but I was also on call so ended up in huge warehouses full of hundreds of people at least a few times a week. This is multiple different sites, so I’ve come into contact, very loosely, with potentially thousands of people. I’d wager your average supermarket worker has come into contact with even more. My uncle is a truck driver who’s been transporting goods for the NCS (drafted in by his company who deliver ‘unessential’ goods normally) – he must have come into contact with thousands of people too.

If this virus was even a fraction as bad as they say, we’d both have caught it – nad he, being a 50-odd year old guy who smokes like a chimney and suffers from gout, would probably have ended up in ICU. It’s just bollocks.

19833 ▶▶ ianp, replying to mjr, 1, #938 of 1297 🔗

Perfect way to enforce social distancing don’t you think? Unless nobody downloads the piece of shit. I reckon this is just the government goading us to disobey again. It’s that ridiculous 😂

19900 ▶▶▶ Bella, replying to ianp, 3, #939 of 1297 🔗

Which is it? Goading us to disobey or getting us used to having our civil liberties reduced to nothing?

20152 ▶▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Bella, #940 of 1297 🔗

It’s that ridiculous I pray it’s the former. It is having the desired effect of people getting more and more angry I hope.

I know that the more apathetic friends of mine don’t want to download it, so that’s a start

19961 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to mjr, 6, #941 of 1297 🔗

My smartphone now stays at home. I don’t really miss it. I just return calls, texts when I get home. I carry a non-smart phone out with me with a PAYG sim in it. It’s very restful!

19823 John P, replying to John P, 33, #942 of 1297 🔗

By mistake I posted a version of the following on Sunday’s thread.

I’ve just seen that Johnson has put up a graphic telling people that they “should” wear face masks in supermarkets. Just when you thought this shit was beginning to end.

I will not wear one. I have never considered it necessary and I have good science to back that up. I WILL NOT OBEY.

Does anyone know if this is enforceable? I just visited my local Tesco for a few bits and pieces – all quiet on the Western Front. All relaxed. It’s my preferred shopping venue, but I prefer to get bread from the Iceland, which has had a lot of masked ghouls of late.

I am single and have no dependents. So I am now thinking that I may be prepared to go to prison to defend liberty. Which may seem like a contradiction. (I can hardly believe I am writing this, but I think it is so serious). The virus is very much on the wane, but the government virus is rampant.

We need a new political movement to stand against this oppression. Because that is what it is. Oppression. We need it so that people who are prepared to take a stand on this will have support and will not be completely isolated and alone.

19831 ▶▶ Paul, replying to John P, 18, #943 of 1297 🔗

I will never wear one either,this madness is increasing rapidly every day,what the f**k is really going on ?,why for god’s sake are most of the population of this country accepting all of this shit ?,if we don’t rise now an do something we are lost forever,I am so angry and frustrated I feel that I am about to burst !,I really don’t know what we can do to stop it.
I’ve just been speaking to my daughter and we both agree there is an ominous feeling of doom in the air,nothing is right anymore,it feels that the big reason all of this has been leading to is about to happen,perhaps I am paranoid but I don’t think I am,if someone told me last Christmas all of this would be happening I would have I told them to stop talking crap !.

19871 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to John P, 13, #944 of 1297 🔗

Madness – supermarket workers report that there have been no mass outbreaks amongst their fellow employees and you would have thought that they would be most vulnerable, seeing as they come into contact with so many different people in an indoors environment, day in and day out.

19896 ▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Carrie, 9, #945 of 1297 🔗

Johnson has said many stupid things so what’s new? To me this just adds to he ominous feeling of it all. Masks now when the virus is on the wane, but no masks a month ago when it was more virulent? This is about them keeping their feet on your/our necks. In other words ramp up the fear, keep it as a threat when it is nothing like it anymore. It’s burning itself out. My doctors’ surgery has emailed that you have to wear a mask if you go for consultation. Doctors! Don’t they know masks don’t work? https://www.researchgate.net/publication/340570735_Masks_Don't_Work_A_review_of_science_relevant_to_COVID-19_social_policy
It’s all more of the Emperor’s new ruddy clothes

19899 ▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Carrie, 6, #946 of 1297 🔗

Also if track and trace work on the fact that you have to be in contact with someone for 15 minutes to qualify as a possible ‘infectee’ what’s with masks in supermarkets for god’s sake?

19925 ▶▶▶▶ Judith Day, replying to Bella, 6, #947 of 1297 🔗

Today driving home in 25 degree heat 800 feet up a Welsh mountain I passed an idiot cyclist wearing a mask!

19976 ▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Judith Day, 5, #948 of 1297 🔗

Maybe it had only just dawned on him that you can’t cycle whilst hiding under the bed.

19945 ▶▶ BTLnewbie, replying to John P, 4, #949 of 1297 🔗

WHO latest advice:
If you are healthy, you only need to wear a mask if you are taking care of a person with COVID-19.

20001 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to John P, 3, #950 of 1297 🔗

No it is not compulsory. If anyone challenges you, educate them on improving their immune system and that wearing face masks for a long time is counter productive, pathogens gets trapped and cause damage.

20381 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to John P, #951 of 1297 🔗

Well I didn’t notice MPs wearing masks while they did the Westminster Conga yesterday. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/03/mps-shielding-from-covid-19-allowed-proxy-vote-in-johnson-u-turn
Surely it’s a similar situation, so masks should be worn.

Must suggest it to the Mogg ….

19842 AidanR, replying to AidanR, 2, #952 of 1297 🔗

I don’t wish to rabble-rouse, but since Toby is the big dog here, and is also the 3* general of the Free Speech Union..


These poor imbeciles need defending and may need protecting.

A poor-taste joke by some disenfranchised, cynical provincial kids does not deserve police intervention IMO.

19901 ▶▶ Mark, replying to AidanR, #953 of 1297 🔗

I suspect dealing with the absurd and illiberal arrest and potential prosecution is less of a concern than the likelihood of some leftist thugs deciding to inflict some violent thuggery upon them. Not the least of the harm inflicted by antiracism is the perceived legitimisation it provides for grievance and violence in response to perceived offence.

19853 Sarigan, replying to Sarigan, #954 of 1297 🔗

Does anyone have a Times subscription as this is behind paywall but would be interested to read further:


19866 ▶▶ Hammer Onats, replying to Sarigan, 13, #955 of 1297 🔗

Here you go:
henever I talk about economic recovery from this crisis, one response I get more than any other is that there cannot be a proper recovery until there is a Covid-19 vaccine. Whether or not we have been guided by the science, we are, it seems, in the hands of the scientists.
It is a fair point. There is nothing normal, or representing a full economic recovery, in which we have to queue outside shops, adopt strict social distancing in offices, factories and on public transport and in which spectator sports take place only without spectators. Nor can we rely on the vaccine cavalry riding to the rescue. While there has been bold talk of a vaccine being available in September, more cautious scientific voices warn that there may not be one even next year.
So, are we stuck in a curious limbo, in which the only thing to celebrate is an economy moving from 60 per cent of normal to 80 or perhaps 90 per cent? Maybe not.
Past pandemics have become a bit of an obsession with me. I wrote recently about the Hong Kong flu pandemic of the late 1960s and early 1970s. It killed up to four million people worldwide, according to the World Health Organisation, including 80,000 in the UK, although many of us who lived through it did not notice it. Pandemics often left victims who survived with lasting health problems. That was true of the devastating, if misnamed, Spanish flu pandemic at the end of the First World War, which may have killed as many as 50 million. These and the other two flu pandemics of the past 100 years or so had one thing in common, however: though often devastating, they were relatively short-lived. They died out, usually in one to two years. This pandemic started towards the end of last year.
Covid-19 is a pandemic, but it is not flu, so we should look for something similar. Here, the obvious candidate is severe acute respiratory syndrome (Sars) — a coronavirus of the early 2000s. Sars-Cov, or as we should now call it, Sars-Cov-1, because the official name for the present virus is Sars-Cov-2, had many similarities with what we are now experiencing. It was an epidemic rather than a pandemic, affecting 26 countries. It was deadlier, killing roughly one in ten people who caught it. Like Covid-19, older people were particularly vulnerable. It led to a global health scare and a desperate search for a vaccine.

There was never a vaccine, however, because it died out. Sars terrified the world in 2002 and 2003, but was brought under control. Apart from a brief outbreak in 2004, thought to have emerged from a Chinese laboratory, there have been no further cases.
The disappearance of Sars, after more than 8,000 cases and just under 800 deaths, is usually put down to a highly successful public health response, which countries such as South Korea have applied during the latest outbreak. Even with this, most experts did not expect it to disappear as rapidly and completely as it did.
Sars-Cov-2, which is thought to have a death rate of about 1 per cent of those affected, has resulted in more than six million cases and approaching 400,000 deaths, according to Johns Hopkins University. The figures imply a higher death rate than 1 per cent, but this is because testing usually is done on people displaying symptoms. Both it and its predecessor are contagious, but the first Sars was easier to contain because those contracting it quickly displayed symptoms. In today’s version, people can be infectious but asymptomatic for many days.
Will this virus, like previous pandemics and the original Sars, also die out? Some of the government’s scientists say that we may have to live with it for many years and, while they are often neither epidemiologists nor virologists, I would be worried if they did not know more about it than I do. But if I were a government scientist, I would not want to risk an “it’ll be all over by Christmas” prediction, partly because it might be wrong, but also because that kind of talk could dull the public health message, which needs all the reinforcement it can get.
Apart from the history, there are straws in the wind. The sharp drop in new cases and hospital admissions in London may be attributable to the success of the lockdown, although it would be harder to argue that it has been more successful than elsewhere, or, more likely, that the capital, having been earlier to it, is now seeing it moving on, to coin a phrase. Nationally, official figures yesterday showed the lowest level of excess deaths since late March.
The government’s uneven response and Britain’s poor record also risk taking our attention away from what is happening elsewhere. In most of the rest of Europe and in many other countries, new cases and deaths are falling sharply and, with one or two exceptions, easing lockdowns has not resulted in significant spikes.
comment image ?crop=3697%2C2464%2C523%2C538&resize=834
Football fans will be back inside stadiums eventually
The other straw in the wind is that, as happened with the original Sars, those developing a vaccine, like the Oxford University project, are becoming concerned that there will be too few cases, or too little of the virus in the community, to enable testing and development to take place.
There will be plenty of people reading this and screaming “second wave”, as happened in some previous pandemics. But the history and the science can agree that if you reduce the reproduction number of the virus and if you accept that some people, perhaps a significant proportion, are not susceptible or have acquired immunity, Sars-Cov-2 will die out.
If there is any wishful thinking in this, it is that I cannot imagine a future in which one virus turns us permanently from social animals to socially distanced animals. In future we will go again to football matches, the cinema and the theatre, drink in sweaty pubs, eat in overcrowded restaurants and travel on packed planes, trains and buses. The new normal will look more like the old normal than looks possible right now.
David Smith is Economics Editor of The Sunday Times david.smith@sunday-times.co.uk

19872 ▶▶▶ Sarigan, replying to Hammer Onats, 2, #956 of 1297 🔗

Thank you, really appreciated

19875 ▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Hammer Onats, 5, #957 of 1297 🔗

Dr John Lee in the Dellingpole interview said they’ve been looking for a vaccine for the common cold for 43 years, so don’t hold your breath. I said on here earlier today that no-one is talking about viral load, which is crucial. One report I read quoted a doctor in Lombardy who said the load is almost zero there now. Lee also said that the R rate is a model, nothing more.

19918 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Hammer Onats, 2, #958 of 1297 🔗

Thanks very much. That’s in general encouraging to see someone mainstream talking quite openly about “old normal” and humans being social animals.

Somewhat perplexed when he says “ Sars-Cov-2, which is thought to have a death rate of about 1 per cent of those affected” as the consensus on IFR seems increasingly to point to a much lower figure.

But overall a step in the right direction.

19923 ▶▶▶▶ Bumble, replying to Julian, #959 of 1297 🔗

I think the cdc in the states calculated the ifr as 0.25% and the uk a similar number. Remember back in march when they were saying 3-7%

20005 ▶▶▶ Victoria, replying to Hammer Onats, #960 of 1297 🔗

‘Lasting health problems’ can easily be fixed by supplementing deficient nutrients such as Vitamin C (build collagen, ie fix mucous membranes of lungs, anti-viral, etc), Vitamin D (body able to fight infections), and many others. When you are that sick nutrients from whole foods won’t be sufficient. Also to manage weight, drink more quality water, get exercise/movement, sleep better, manage stress and surround yourself with people – isolation kills.

19979 ▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to Sarigan, 3, #961 of 1297 🔗

Very disappointing how far behind the curve so many journalists are, one of the reasons we are in the state that we are in.

A coronavirus expert, Prof. John Nicholls, Hong Kong University (Hong Kong 4, that would be four, covid 19 deaths) did an interview 06 February saying that reports from China, outside Wuhan, indicated that covid 19 was another common cold coronavirus, lethal to the elderly, infirm and obese like any common cold, known for years,but otherwise not much. He also said it would diminish as the weather improved…….


19881 Nigel Baldwin, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 3, #962 of 1297 🔗

Been watching news videos of the riots in U.S Thousands of masks in sight (more wearing than not) but a lot of handshakes. Confused.com. To be clear: I won’t wear a mask and I will shake anyone’s hand if they want me to, but there seems to be a serious disconnect over there. I can’t believe they’re all wearing masks to prevent i.d. by the police.

19884 ▶▶ AidanR, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 2, #963 of 1297 🔗

Why can’t you believe that? It’s a tactical no-brainer.

19888 ▶▶▶ Bella, replying to AidanR, #964 of 1297 🔗

Because a lot of them weren’t improvised masks but surgical or medical ones, ma
y of the more expensive variety. A makeshift mask is a neckerchief around your face.

19890 ▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Bella, #965 of 1297 🔗

I meant ‘Perhaps because…’ as I saw some of those clips too. ‘Many of the more expensive variety.’ Sorry, fingers slipping on phone

19906 ▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Bella, #966 of 1297 🔗

One reckons gang credibility might lean toward an expensive surgical-type mask.

20028 ▶▶ daveyp, replying to Nigel Baldwin, #967 of 1297 🔗

The masks aren’t to protect from COVID-19, they’re to protect their faces from being recognised when being filmed. It’s nothing to do with COVID-19, look at other protests that have happened recently around the world like Hong Kong.

19889 Adam, replying to Adam, 37, #968 of 1297 🔗

Long time lurker, first time poster. I am truly sick of this lockdown. My friend’s mother was diagnosed with terminal cancer early on (actually she already had it, but it had spread), and she died today. Fortunately, my friend had no compunctions about breaking the rules, otherwise she would never have seen her mum again, but there are many similar cases where people have not had a chance to say goodbye. I think it is morally reprehensible: separating people from their relatives and denying people of fundamental needs and rights. It’s utterly evil.

19922 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Adam, 12, #969 of 1297 🔗

Tell her to stand over the doctor who does the death certificate and don’t leave until she signs something that doesn’t say ‘covid-19’.

19927 ▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Farinances, 5, #970 of 1297 🔗

I would break all ten of their digits

19928 ▶▶▶ Adam, replying to Farinances, 8, #971 of 1297 🔗

Yep!!! I had already considered saying that to her, but don’t want to cause her any more anguish. She suffers from bad OCD too which has really flared up during her ordeal, and I have tried to help her through it to the best of my ability (I know her from OCD self help groups, so I know a bit about dealing with that sort of anxiety), but she really needs proper access to professional mental health services which just aren’t available because of this truly evil lockdown.

19933 ▶▶▶▶ OCDSufferer, replying to Adam, 3, #972 of 1297 🔗

I have some pretty severe OCD too, I’ve been having to work very hard not to worry about the virus and to wash my hands only as much as necessary rather than after touching something that might have touched something that maybe touched something that might have been infected. Fortunately fury against the violations of our civil liberties has made me angry enough to forget the virus almost completely, and avoiding BBC fearmongering has helped me keep things in proportion and not let my OCD use this pesky virus as an excue to flare up.

P.S. Where is Toby today, no update seems to have been published yet.

19952 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to OCDSufferer, 6, #973 of 1297 🔗

He said yesterday he’d be taking today off to do other important stuff (see “No Update Tomorrow” above). Seems reasonable, seeing as we aren’t paying him a salary.

19953 ▶▶▶▶▶ Adam, replying to OCDSufferer, #974 of 1297 🔗

Hi OCDSufferer, pretty tough time if you suffer from that flavour of OCD, but it sounds like you’re on top of it!!

19985 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to OCDSufferer, #975 of 1297 🔗

I sympathise. Remember, though, it’s all about the viral load. If you did touch something that had touched something etc, then you might get it, but in such a miniscule dose you wouldn’t notice. And you’d get some antibodies. Plus, it’s virtually gone, evidently, with no evidence of a second wave.

19973 ▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Adam, 6, #976 of 1297 🔗

You’ve put your finger in it there.
Relatives are too anguished to argue with the NHS traitors who are operating the lie machine.
There is no condemnation strong enough for this vile practice.

20065 ▶▶▶ Paul, replying to Farinances, 8, #977 of 1297 🔗

Regarding death certificates this is a quote from my brother,an undertaker,yesterday,

In England there are three sections on a death certificate for a doctor to fill in. Primary cause of death, possible secondary cause and third possible attributing factor. As long as one of these says Covid it is classed as a statistic. The figures are people who have died “with” Covid not from Covid. Doctors only need to think that possibly the person may have had it to put it down on the certificate, they don’t even need to have a positive test.

The whole death rate due to Covid is falsified. The majority of these people would have died at this time anyway. Our figures show a spike roughly every five years in the death rate. Our last busiest year was 2015! Go back from there the next busiest was 2010. This isn’t a pandemic, it is just natural selection.

20169 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Paul, 2, #978 of 1297 🔗

Undertakers could be a key resistance profession. They aren’t beholden to the beloved NCS, yet they have professional expertise that means they are intimately witness to what is going on. We need to recruit undertakers!

20184 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Paul, 1, #979 of 1297 🔗

I read on Twitter (yes, I know…) that UK undertakers have been told to expect a second spike of excess death in July – can you ask your brother if he has heard any such information?

20429 ▶▶▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Carrie, #980 of 1297 🔗

We’ve been told to expect a spike in 2 weeks time every day for as long as I can remember and still waiting.

21017 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Tom Welsh, replying to Nobody2020, #981 of 1297 🔗

“Spike yesterday and spike tomorrow, but never spike today”.

19948 ▶▶ BTLnewbie, replying to Adam, 3, #982 of 1297 🔗

Sorry to hear about your friend’s position, Adam. She can take comfort in knowing that, whatever concerns she may have had at the time, she did the right thing; as you say, there will be many others who blindly followed the rules and not their feelings, who did not have a chance to say farewell to family members.

19954 ▶▶▶ Adam, replying to BTLnewbie, 6, #983 of 1297 🔗

Yeah, she mmmm’d and rrrrr’d over it at first, but she definitely did the right thing. Pleased I signed up to this site now to chat to like-minded people. There’s simply no convincing the vast majority of people about the futility of this lockdown, so it’s good to chat to people who don’t need any convincing.

20385 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Adam, #984 of 1297 🔗

Trouble is, when you’ve spent most of the time here, communicating with sheeple is like being on another planet.

19975 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to BTLnewbie, 9, #985 of 1297 🔗

An old gentleman from our church congregation died, not of the Covibug, early in the universal incarceration.
His wife of fifty years was kept away from him as he lay dying. His funeral was a poor, truncated ritual.
The NGS has FIENDS in it.
And our rector emailed us to say it was a sad necessity. No word of criticism. Wimp.

20003 ▶▶▶▶ Victoria, replying to annie, 2, #986 of 1297 🔗


19897 Nobody2020, replying to Nobody2020, 18, #987 of 1297 🔗

How can anybody read something like this and not think the world has gone bonkers.


Normal everyday life has been deemed a threat to life. Up here in Scotland we have been threatened with normal life becoming illegal if even a few of us dare to live it.

I would say the lunatics have taken over the asylum but it’s probably more apt to say most of the world was always one big asylum and the only thing that’s changed is the dosage of medication.

19911 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Nobody2020, 3, #988 of 1297 🔗

The tone of it was flippant at times. Rather inappropriate IMO. This is a serious matter.

The comments were an interesting mix – a fair bit of what seems to me like lunacy, but also a fair few robust comments in favour of the “old” normal, or being HUMAN.

20406 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Julian, #989 of 1297 🔗

2 metres is better than 1. But I will be going for 3.

One of the comments. This is what we’re up against!

20425 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Julian, #990 of 1297 🔗

I wasn’t trying to criticise the writer, more pointing out the how ridiculous the subject matter is. Can’t understand how anybody could see what’s happening and just shrug it off as no big deal.

20408 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Nobody2020, #991 of 1297 🔗

She’s either serious (which is worrying!) or taking the p*ss out of her readers (not helpful!)

19898 ArchieMD, replying to ArchieMD, 25, #992 of 1297 🔗

I have been studying this condition for some time now. Allow me to share my learned experience for the benefit of all those engaged in the somewhat desperate struggle to contain its spread and mitigate its effects.

This is indeed a fascinating condition; it has rapidly spread throughout the population. It can strike as if from nowhere. But we still do not fully understand how it can affect one person so severely, yet leave others relatively untouched.

What determines the outcome in each case? – is it genetic? – is it political affiliation? – is it choice of newspaper? Let us focus on what we do know.

Completely sane individuals typically develop prodromal signs (mild tremor, sweaty palms, nervous laughter, inappropriate public behaviour involving clapping of the hands). We know that about 10% of symptomatic individuals will recover rapidly with a prompt return to sanity and illicit liaisons.  But a much greater proportion go on to develop fulminating symptoms of the condition.

Acute symptomatology is variable and generally rapid in onset.  Social withdrawal is present in almost all cases, with many sufferers being fearful of leaving the home. Current knowledge indicates that diagnosis can be made in the presence of a triad of symptoms; these are:

–         Movement disorder (the swerve phenomenon is most commonly described, which usually affects the individual when attempting to mobilise to local shops but Philips et al. described a subset who leap over walls or fences to escape approaching pedestrians);

–         Chronic naso-perioral dysmorphophobia which compels the wearing of a facial covering; early reports indicate that in approximately half of cases the nasal region is spared in which case the mouth alone may be covered, and the nose left uncovered.

–         Delusional complex. As yet, this is not well understood, but it is proving fertile ground for research. Montmorency et al. have explored key delusional elements and these are the best available aid to diagnosis. They describe cases exhibiting delusional narratives related to the 14th century period with obsessive elements involving rats (sometimes fleas may be described upon them), itinerant peasants, peak district villages and nursery rhymes.  In other cases, affected individuals may describe mushroom shaped clouds rising high into the sky, men riding on white horses, or dragons with four heads emerging from the North Sea.

Sadly our own efforts at treating the condition have failed on all occasions, and we now advocate simple supportive management. It is important to provide plenty of reassurance, and we have found paracetamol or brufen helpful for mild fever or headache.

It is too early to speculate on prognosis. We believe it is possible that a full recovery will be achieved in some cases, but adverse prognostic indicators include loss of purpose, social isolation, inability to access support networks and financial hardship. Some colleagues have raised concerns that background factors, such as total economic collapse and mass joblessness, could delay recovery, and could even result in a recurrence of certain delusional elements (mushroom shaped clouds, horsemen etc.).

19917 ▶▶ Peter Thompson, replying to ArchieMD, 17, #993 of 1297 🔗

Very amusing . The unfortunate thing is we in the medical profession have encouraged this derangement Indeed as the pandmic wanes into insignificance we are devising new tortures and indignities for the general patient.

20640 ▶▶▶ ArchieMD, replying to Peter Thompson, 1, #994 of 1297 🔗

Yes I couldn’t agree more.

19916 BobT, replying to BobT, 12, #995 of 1297 🔗

In light of the UK government’s revised laws. and especially the Covid-19 related state actions happening worldwide, I suggest that everyone remind themselves of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights devised after WW2.


How many of the 30 have been violated in the past 4 months?

19921 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to BobT, 4, #996 of 1297 🔗

Nearly all of them. Which is why their declaration does not include the right to bear arms.

19959 ▶▶▶ BobT, replying to JohnB, -2, #997 of 1297 🔗

Would those arms be a pistol, an assault rifle, a tank or a nuclear bomb because only the latter would have any chance against a state like the US whose President has just declared that he would mobilise his military against his own people.

19998 ▶▶▶▶ IanE, replying to BobT, 6, #998 of 1297 🔗

Actually, to protect his people and their property from rioting thugs: the first duty of every leader!

20062 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to BobT, 3, #999 of 1297 🔗

So mobilising the military to protect people from looters is in your view using them “against his people”? That’s pretty warped, and imo you should think about how you arrived at that unearthly conclusion.

As for arms, when authority abandons you because its busy elsewhere, it’s nice to have the option to effectively protect your property. The state promises to protect you, but in the end it generally has other priorities, as the famous “roof Koreans” found:

When looting starts, shooting starts

20081 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to BobT, 1, #1001 of 1297 🔗

Bob, If you’re really interested, I would recommend http://www.kaba.com , an excellent website which covers such topics regularly. I’ve answered similar points in detail online many times.

A principal point is that, yes, you can flatten a country with a nuke. But to control it, profit from it, tyrannise it, operate it, live in it, etc., you cannot ignore a large well-armed population.

19971 ▶▶ annie, replying to BobT, 7, #1002 of 1297 🔗

Certainly the most essential ones, to start with.
Freedom of movement, freedom of association, freedom of expression, freedom of worship…
What would our pious politicians have said formerly about countries that suppressed all of these?

19943 Louise, replying to Louise, 6, #1003 of 1297 🔗

My eyes have not yet recovered from the extreme rolling back into my head after reading Charlotte Church’s twitter rant about schools. Can she think a single thought that anything beyond one dimension? If you want to annoy the crap out of yourself and be reminded that we are surrounded by pond life then I highly recommend it.

19997 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Louise, #1004 of 1297 🔗

Something else to avoid!

19950 Barnabas, replying to Barnabas, 34, #1005 of 1297 🔗

Pretty useless Patel excels herself again.

Priti Patel: ‘We owe it to the victims of Covid-19 to impose quarantine’

The majority of the comments posted about this article strongly suggests that DT readers are now getting really angry with the utterly ruinous shambles that the Johnson Government has created. See example below

“Andrew Kahn 2 Jun 2020 10:13PM
This is now ridiculous. I for one will never forgive this government for the farce this has become. People have put up with a tenuous lockdown despite all your government and its advisers breaching it. Now you decide to shred the travel industry and deny us a summer holiday after so much misery. Don’t give me crap about holidaying in the UK. We’ve seen how welcoming the holiday spots are.

When my eight year old checks in with his teacher each week and says all he wants is to see his school friends and his cousins and family overseas, I really lose it with you useless politicians.

By the way, average ago of deaths is about 80, and vast majority of those had underlying health conditions. Most probably caught it in a nursing home where you dumped sick people.
I hope there is a long and deep legal inquiry into all of this.
Until now lifelong Conservative and party member. But, you lot are absolutely clueless. ”

19951 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Barnabas, 12, #1006 of 1297 🔗

That Telegraph comment reads like it was written by a reader of this site…

19960 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Barnabas, 23, #1007 of 1297 🔗

I am now so furious about this totally unnecessary quarantine nonsense which is going to destroy the travel industry and add thousands more to the dole queue – I cannot believe Patel is so stupid! I will be ignoring it. I will fly back when it’s all over, sell up here in the UK and permanently move to my little house abroad. Had enough. They’ve tipped me over the edge now. This is no longer my brave beautiful country that I grew up in. It’s a monster, run by incompetents.

19974 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to CarrieAH, 24, #1008 of 1297 🔗

Me too. I hope to god that my MP doesn’t come anywhere near my shop because she will feel the full throttle of my anger.

Sad to say I lost it with a customer yesterday, though I think I was justified. He seemed to find the whole lockdown exercise incredibly funny. Yes, he actually laughed (in fact, guffawed would be a more accurate description) when I told him that we had been adversely affected (most people do not realise this … really, that is how incredibly stupid a lot of them are and I find that very, very worrying). He seemed to be another one of those: “well, we have to save the NHS and it’s worth it” brigade. I told him that as a victim, on several occasions, of NHS malpractice, it most certainly wasn’t worth it. All I had left was my ability to earn a living and that has now been stripped from me on the altar of saving this bloated behemoth.

19980 ▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to kh1485, 16, #1009 of 1297 🔗

With apologies to the doctor who posted earlier. I know there are incredibly kind people who work in the NHS, but when you have experienced it at its worst, as I have, and seen things that will stay with you and haunt you forever, you tend to be a bit trenchant in your views. As a nursing representative said of end of life care recently, “when we get it right, the relatives never forget, when we get it wrong, they never forgive”. Sadly, I am in the latter category …

19990 ▶▶▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to kh1485, 8, #1010 of 1297 🔗

Me too. My mother’s treatment when she broke her hip and died a month later was appalling. I had to stand and fight for every little bit of care she got. Which wasn’t much.

20006 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to CarrieAH, 5, #1011 of 1297 🔗

I’m so very sorry to hear that. Sadly, it seems quite common. I ended up fighting the NHS for over a year to get answers and they put obstacles in my way at every turn. Just one doctor (ex. army) and one chaplain treated me with respect.

20090 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Old Bill, replying to kh1485, 4, #1012 of 1297 🔗

The NHS was directly or indirectly responsible for the deaths of 4 of my closest relatives, and since there were only 8 members of my family alive at the time, that is a pretty high percentage. In nearly every case their ’cause of death’ was listed as something else. Pneumonia is the favourite – in place of MRSA or neglect, sepsis in place of stupidity – it is just normal practice.

If you are a prime minister, or having a baby you might get decent treatment, if you are an old person you might as well forget it.

I wouldn’t bother saving the NHS, I would replace all the hospitals with Dignitas clinics – they are more caring and better at their job.

20149 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Old Bill, 3, #1013 of 1297 🔗

Oh, I’m so very sorry. I had just my mum left and what you describe is exactly what happened in her case. And they, despite my vigorous protestations (and begging actually), subjected her to the brutality of a PM. It has sent me to the near limits of insanity. What I saw her subjected to will haunt me for the rest of my life and that is why I will never, ever clap the NHS.

19988 ▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to kh1485, 12, #1014 of 1297 🔗

Like I’ve said before the “if it saves one life its worth it” idea has become so poisonous and dangerous that we need to eradicate this abomination from the public consciousness when this is all over.

20015 ▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Bart Simpson, 4, #1015 of 1297 🔗

I know. Let’s put it this way, I think my customer got the drift!

20061 ▶▶▶▶ Paul, replying to kh1485, 3, #1016 of 1297 🔗

I don’t think you need worry,I can’t imagine your MP wanting to go anywhere near a hard working small business owner,ours certainly didn’t.I don’t blame you for losing it with a customer,for some reason people think they can say any stupid insulting thing they like to anyone with their own business,over the years I have actually frog-marched several ‘customers’ from our premises with a flea in their ear !.

20077 ▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Paul, 4, #1017 of 1297 🔗

I actually thought he would put up a bit of resistance but he didn’t. To be honest, I think he was a bit shocked by my response. I’m afraid the forelock-tugging only goes so far with me. Whilst I’m grateful for his and others’ custom, that doesn’t mean he can stand in my shop and laugh about my predicament. As I’ve said before, people really don’t seem to grasp the enormity of what is happening and what is going to happen, both in terms of liberty lost and economy trashed. They have been bribed by the furlough and lulled into soporific compliance by the sunny weather. And as for my MP, well I now have no words …

(Re. chucking people out, I asked one bloke to leave when he complained that I had put the bottom part of a tomato in his sandwich – yes, really. “Well, my wife never puts the bottom part in …” ).

20232 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Paul, replying to kh1485, 3, #1018 of 1297 🔗

The way the world is heading he might be very,very grateful for the chance to have the bottom part of a tomato !

20253 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to kh1485, 2, #1019 of 1297 🔗

That’s really appalling. What I’ve noticed with this crisis is how it has exposed many people to be lacking in compassion and empathy.

19999 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Barnabas, 3, #1020 of 1297 🔗

Can’t wait for the new political party to restore our liberties and rights.

20105 ▶▶ Bella, replying to Barnabas, 1, #1021 of 1297 🔗

What has happened to all the old Tory grandees et al ( I speak as a leftist leaning person) who got ousted by this rabble? Up until the last election I never thought I would be holding grudging respect for people like Heseltine, Clarke, Hammond, Greening, Rudd, Soames (well some of them anyway). Why aren’t they speaking out? Don’t they have a platform all of a sudden. Pretty sure Heseltine wouldn’t be approving of this nonsense.

20179 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Barnabas, 3, #1022 of 1297 🔗

If Patel was *at least* doing something about the daily boatfuls of migrants turning up and being to allow to roam freely, while the legal residents of this country are subject to ridiculous curfews and curtailment of their constitutional rights, I would have more respect for her..

20415 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Barnabas, #1023 of 1297 🔗


19955 ianp, replying to ianp, 10, #1024 of 1297 🔗

Ha… Very interesting and infuriating! Survey on ‘new normal’ or life after covid ffs. I would probably recommend setting up a new email inbox or something ‘to be contacted’ but honestly I say go for it, let rip and do your worst here. Let them know what you think.

I think the more normal people hammer this the better.

Look at the list of commisioners.

Let em have it, both barrels. I just completed it.


19968 ▶▶ annie, replying to ianp, 6, #1025 of 1297 🔗

Have done.
Used a bazooka.

19983 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to ianp, 3, #1026 of 1297 🔗

Done. Let rip and didn’t hold back.

19986 ▶▶ FiFiTrixabelle, replying to ianp, 3, #1027 of 1297 🔗

Me too…didn’t hold back.

19995 ▶▶ Anthony, replying to ianp, 2, #1028 of 1297 🔗

Done, quite a lengthy rant so hope they read it.

20004 ▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to ianp, 2, #1029 of 1297 🔗

Me too 😡

20007 ▶▶ ambwozere, replying to ianp, 1, #1030 of 1297 🔗

In the middle of it, not holding back.

20013 ▶▶ karate56, replying to ianp, 4, #1031 of 1297 🔗

Done it. Never poured out so much disgraceful language in my life. I fear the lockdown fetishists will outnumber us and the survey will be used to implement some further permanent insanity on us.

20027 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to karate56, 1, #1032 of 1297 🔗

I don’t think they necessarily will – we have to forward this to the apathetic. The normals who do as they are told, but just want to go to the pub, go on holiday, to have a job and watch football (majority of my lot)

20022 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to ianp, 2, #1033 of 1297 🔗

Me too. Gosh, that felt good!

20039 ▶▶ Julian, replying to ianp, 5, #1034 of 1297 🔗

Done it, thanks for posting. Lack of decent questions about how people see the future. Do people really think indefinite social distancing is economically or socially sustainable? I think this is the point to hammer – it’s not just for another few weeks, this is FOREVER and it won’t work.

I was talking to a very educated person the other day who does a job that requires a lot of realistic thinking about the world. He was pretty guarded in expressing views one way or another, but I would doubt he’s a lockdown fanatic. We talked a bit about public transport – he hadn’t really considered that social distancing and public transport in any city were just not compatible. I think these are the kind of questions we need to pose to those sitting on the fence.

20099 ▶▶ Bella, replying to ianp, 5, #1035 of 1297 🔗

I found that distressing. Not least because we buy into the concept that this is permanent. And that this anything beyond normal. The lockdown is abnormal, the virus is just another seasonal disease the likes of which we have been dealing with for thousands of years.

20116 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Bella, #1036 of 1297 🔗

Absolutely, and you can let em know it. I also let them know that most people know it and they should watch out as we are not fooled.

To be honest, its a very sly survey as at no point do I remember clicking on any choice that I felt I did not want to click on (ie. there wasn’t a question that said ‘which of these 2 T & T methods would you prefer’.

The path through it was one I could take without compromising what I think (from what I remember anyway as did it at around 2am!)

20187 ▶▶ BTLnewbie, replying to ianp, 1, #1037 of 1297 🔗

It seems you can complete the survey more than once, as there are verious sections:

  • Your money and spending
  • Your working life
  • Your local community
  • Your family, relationships and day-to-day life
  • Schools and learning
  • Health and social care
  • Transport
  • Democracy and government
  • Technology and your online life

I’ve done 2 so far, 7 to go, and have had no feedback from the site saying ‘go away, you’ve already completed this’.
I have plenty of points to spread all of these fields.
I think this Demos survey is a more productive forum for us than a petition – at least someone is going to read this stuff!

20190 ▶▶▶ BTLnewbie, replying to BTLnewbie, 1, #1038 of 1297 🔗

A bit more background to the survey here:
“Renew Normal is being coordinated by Demos, a research charity. To help us map out how life has changed for you, we’re looking at nine different topics. You can choose which ones you want to tell us about – you can choose them all if you want! In each we will ask a handful of questions to help us understand your situation, and then there’s a space for you to share anything you want. We also have an ‘Anything else?’ question at the end if there is anything we haven’t covered that you want to say.

We’d also like to keep in touch with you about this project. There will be the chance to put in your contact details at the end, but you don’t have to do so to complete the survey. “

20246 ▶▶▶▶ ianp, replying to BTLnewbie, 1, #1039 of 1297 🔗

Yeah… and actually although I bristled at the ‘New normal’ in the URL (late last night!), what you have clarified is that it is called ‘renew normal’… which can mean a lot of different things.

20217 ▶▶ Jonathan Castro, replying to ianp, #1040 of 1297 🔗

I filled out all sections to make my protest (ticked all boxes at the start).

20256 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to ianp, 3, #1041 of 1297 🔗

Just took part and did use an AK-47

20257 ▶▶ Poppy, replying to ianp, 1, #1042 of 1297 🔗

Just filled in, had so much to let rip about!

20303 ▶▶ Barnabas, replying to ianp, 1, #1043 of 1297 🔗

Thanks for the link ianp. Just completed the survey. Took my time and prepared some meaningful statements.

20315 ▶▶ JASA, replying to ianp, #1044 of 1297 🔗

Told them what I thought, especially about withholding NHS treatments.

19991 Bart Simpson, replying to Bart Simpson, 22, #1045 of 1297 🔗

I really despair at institutions and people.

My FB feed has been littered with BLM posts from people I know and from the likes of the Ashmolean Museum, British Library, Daunt Books and others. Yet nowt a peep over this current situtation that is destroying our civil liberties and livelihood.

I wonder if this lot will change their tune once these shops and institutions lose money and go bust and people I know start to lose their jobs.

19996 ▶▶ Poppy, replying to Bart Simpson, 21, #1046 of 1297 🔗

It’s just bizarre – people think they can solve racism by posting a black square on their Instagram feed. I understand why things are bad in the US but shouting ‘fuck the police’ at police in the UK, a totally separate country 4000 miles away which has no power to change anything in the US, is very strange indeed. Looking at the protests and the huge crowds, you’d think that lockdown hadn’t happened at all. In a way it’s strangely encouraging – it implies that people don’t actually believe the fear behind the social distancing bollocks, they’ve just been brainwashed to do so, and as soon as some other social media bandwagon comes up, they can conveniently forget about it. They just jump on whatever ’cause’ will get them the most likes. Two months ago it was staying at home, now it’s this. Clearly it wasn’t (and sadly still isn’t) fashionable to speak out against the lockdown.

20016 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Poppy, 9, #1047 of 1297 🔗

Funny I had the same thought as you – its jumping on the bandwagon to see who gets the most likes and show that they care. Yet that has nothing to do with us and they’re strangely silent on what the government is doing to us and their inability to lead us out of this mess.

20025 ▶▶▶▶ LGDTLK, replying to Bart Simpson, 11, #1048 of 1297 🔗

I follow a local band on FB – kids of my barber – who I really like. Punky garage stuff that reminds me of my halcyion days in the late 70s! However they’ve joined in with tne BLM stuff. So I’ve unliked them but sent them a private message explaining why and pointing out that they should perhaps turn their anger and energy to the horrors being inflicted on their fellow countrymen by lockdown.

20033 ▶▶▶▶▶ ianp, replying to LGDTLK, 3, #1049 of 1297 🔗

Yep I noticed that! All bandwagon jumpers … Made me feel dirty for liking Radiohead and the horrors ☹️

20058 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to LGDTLK, 2, #1050 of 1297 🔗

Pretty pathetic when people who claim to be “punk” and pretend to be “edgy” are just conformist virtue signallers chiming in with the majority approved dogma because they are desperate for approval.

Pathetic, but very, very common.

20086 ▶▶▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to LGDTLK, 1, #1051 of 1297 🔗

Public Image Limited’s Rise is getting a lot of play at moment, Lydon’s refrain of ‘Anger is an energy!’ speaks to my heart ❤

20226 ▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to LGDTLK, #1052 of 1297 🔗

Might do the same for the Ashmolean and others – really disappointing.

20049 ▶▶▶ Mark H, replying to Poppy, 5, #1053 of 1297 🔗

The part of my brain that deals with theories that are conspiratorial is really concerned that these protests are being “allowed” to happen.

Will they be blamed for a manufactured second wave and as a result see the “need” for even tighter laws been written up to track, trace and control everyone?

I mean, Sturgeon is flirting with bringing in laws to make it illegal to freely travel more than 5 miles from where you live. Why? Because people went to Loch Lomond at the weekend.

So, mass protests with no social distancing that don’t get challenged by the police are a very handy vehicle to point to to clamp down on us further.

20059 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Bart Simpson, 4, #1054 of 1297 🔗

BLM posts from people I know and from the likes of the Ashmolean Museum, British Library, Daunt Books and others

Always revealing when a supposedly “anti-authority” position is actually the one that is approved by most authorities.

20196 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Mark, 2, #1055 of 1297 🔗

I knew something was fishy when the likes of Classic FM, British Library, Daunt Books and museums such as the Horniman and Ashmolean jumped on the bandwagon.

I mean, why? Do they not have any problems that they need to attend to? And they’re British companies and instituions, why get involved in something that happened over 3000 miles away and doesn’t really affect us?

20201 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Bart Simpson, 1, #1056 of 1297 🔗

Virtue signalling! It’s a real thing, not just a meme.

20160 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Bart Simpson, 6, #1057 of 1297 🔗

Fact: There are way more black people being directly affected by the lockdowns than there are being affected by police brutality.

People seem to have forgotten about the existence of Africa.

The whole BLM movement should be renamed ‘First World Black Lives Matter’.

20199 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Farinances, #1058 of 1297 🔗

Spot on. It’s a First World problem, I can imagine those in Africa making fun of people in developed countries tying themselves up in knots over this.

20002 Poppy, replying to Poppy, 22, #1059 of 1297 🔗

Tipping it down with rain here today, and rain has been forecast on and off for the next two weeks. I’m pleased, it’s about time we had some good old British weather after months of wall-to-wall sunshine lulling people into a false sense of security. I wonder how attractive those anti-social distanced BBQs and meeting in the park appear now?

On another note, a sponsored advert for the new TT system from the Department of Health and Social Care appeared on my Facebook feed today – the typical childish video with simplistic illustrations and instructions, accompanied by the caption ‘Testing and tracing must become a new way of life’. No it won’t – but the government are clearly still hell-bent on pushing these Orwellian phrases.

The comments underneath the video were a mixed bag – a few lockdownistas sadly, one of whom genuinely asked ‘Why are people so worried about being tracked? Why do you think you’re so important to the government, who do you think you are?!!!!’ (give me strength), and a few cucks insisting that we had to abide by this lunacy in order to ‘save others around us’, but there were quite a few who railed against the app due to the privacy concerns, and some mentioning the economic costs of the lockdown. It’s all filtering through now, just a bit too slowly, but I think it’s an accelerating thing – once enough people wake up, it will happen very suddenly.

I’m starting to think that maybe the masses aren’t that scared at all. They’re just playing along and keeping up with this charade because they don’t want to face the fact that all the sacrifices they have made, all the misery they have endured over these past 11 weeks may well have all been for nothing.

20014 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Poppy, 10, #1060 of 1297 🔗

I agree with you. I think a lot of this are lockdownistas being in denial that they have been had and that things aren’t going to look good for them when we emerge from this. If it isn’t job losses or bankruptcy that they might be facing it could be possible tax hikes on their pensions and property that would mean less income all round.

20021 ▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Bart Simpson, 9, #1061 of 1297 🔗

I hope those people who favour the lockdown get pneumonia 🤣

Although, they’ll probably say, ‘IT’S THE SECOND WAVE, WE’LL ALL GOING TO DIE!!!! AAAIIIIHHH!!!!!!’

We can’t win 🙄

20040 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Poppy, 8, #1062 of 1297 🔗

I actually think the good weather has made people more accepting of lockdown as they have at least been able to get out of the house and enjoy the sunshine.

20132 ▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to Julian, 5, #1063 of 1297 🔗

Exactly, which is why it needs to tip it down while shops/cafés etc are still shut in town centres (so no shelter from rain) in order to get everyone thoroughly bad-tempered and fed up with this nonsense…!

20215 ▶▶ Jonathan Castro, replying to Poppy, 3, #1064 of 1297 🔗

I don’t give a toss about the rules. It’s other people clinging to them that makes it harder to meet people in their homes or have people here.

20020 Chicot, replying to Chicot, 18, #1065 of 1297 🔗

I don’t see much sign of social distancing in many of these US protests yet there doesn’t seem any mention of “covidiots”, no hysterical rants about how these gatherings are “killing people”, no one hoping the protestors all catch the virus. It seems that protesting against police brutality somehow confers immunity. At the very least, it certainly seems to grant immunity against criticism from hypocrites.

20024 ▶▶ The Spingler, replying to Chicot, 5, #1066 of 1297 🔗

I know. Weird right?

20067 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Chicot, 5, #1067 of 1297 🔗

One set of idiots propagandised into delusional conformity recognise another one, clearly.

20026 LGDTLK, replying to LGDTLK, 17, #1068 of 1297 🔗

Good rant from Allison Pearson. The DT appears to have had enough.


20044 ▶▶ Julian, replying to LGDTLK, 6, #1069 of 1297 🔗

Most encouraging, along with the comments which seem to be 90% in favour of her POV.

20047 ▶▶ Poppy, replying to LGDTLK, 7, #1070 of 1297 🔗

Great article, and one of the commenters on there gave Lockdown Sceptics a shoutout!

20066 ▶▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to Poppy, 4, #1071 of 1297 🔗

Hi Poppy, a friend of mine in Australia reads lockdownsceptics, and she told me she thinks you should be doing a blog. A bit of encouragement for you!

20079 ▶▶▶ ambwozere, replying to Poppy, 4, #1072 of 1297 🔗

That might have been my comment on the Telegraph. Just thought it might be worth getting some more people aware of this site.

20030 The Spingler, replying to The Spingler, 26, #1073 of 1297 🔗

Every so often I post some positive news about the pandemic on my Facebook feed. Yesterday I shared the story about CV deaths being at the lowest level since the end of March. Good news for all you’d think?

Oh no. Two ‘friends’ immediately posted.

One saying why is the UK lifting it’s lockdown restrictions much faster than the rest of Europe? I replied that actually the opposite is true, the UK is being much slower to reopen things. She then shared a story about her local hospital closing it’s A&E department in anticipation of a second wave. I countered by saying that there is no evidence a second wave is coming and actually the article itself said that local councillors were worried that CV19 was just an excuse being used to close the A&E and downgrade services as that had been the intention pre pandemic. She replied with a ‘it’s too hot to debate these things’ and disappeared.

The other stated that in fact the UK’s death rate was still rising compared to Spain and Italy where death rates have plateaued. I shared graphs clearly showing the UK death rate falling. He then deleted his post and disappeared without a word.

So what it is in the human psyche that a large proportion of people want to believe the worst about a situation and even when good news is pointed out they are determined not to believe it and look for counter stories that are negative? It’s almost as if some people want this this to be the end of the world. Why is that?

20032 ▶▶ ambwozere, replying to The Spingler, 3, #1074 of 1297 🔗

Because for some unknown reason as humans we prefer bad news to good news. People get a kick out of bad news, there is probably some psychological reason why this is.

20034 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to The Spingler, 11, #1075 of 1297 🔗

They’ve been deliberately traumatised and then brainwashed by the bad guys.

20035 ▶▶ Julian, replying to The Spingler, 9, #1076 of 1297 🔗

That is a very interesting question.

Some people are lazy and believe what thay are told, especially if it is not currently affecting them personally too much – so they can work from home or are enjoying a paid holiday at their own eventual expense.

I think some people just like to have a cause to invest in and feel passionate about, and thinking you’re saving lives is a good one. I guess some of us here could be accused of espousing the opposite cause for similar reasons, though we would argue we are being rational.

20258 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Julian, 3, #1077 of 1297 🔗

Exactly. Its the “I’m allright Jack” mentality – apart from what you’ve said, they are also those who are not taking any financial hit because they’re retired, don’t have any rent or mortgage to worry about or are financially well off. Because they’re not really affected they can’t contemplate how this lockdown and social distancing is pretty much destroying life as we know it.

20266 ▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Bart Simpson, 2, #1078 of 1297 🔗

Those drawing pensions shouldn’t feel too secure – goodness know what’s going to happen to those. I tend to think only the very well off are going to be completely safe from this

20347 ▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Bart Simpson, 5, #1079 of 1297 🔗

My dad is retired, doesn’t have a mortgage or rent to pay so is suffering much less than a lot of us but he is apoplectic about this lockdown, raging, and not just because he likes a pint. He’s furious because of what this is doing to the younger generation. I’ve never heard such revolutionary talk come from his lips before.

20043 ▶▶ Mark H, replying to The Spingler, 24, #1080 of 1297 🔗

As a “survivor” of a high-control cult, the believer will defend their beliefs in spite of any evidence presented to them. They’re trained on how to flip flop logic at will. They can take any piece of news an immediately find the angle that supports their beliefs.


In part, because they dearly need to hold onto their belief system into which they’ve put so much time and into which they’ve associated so many ancillary things. In a cult, it’s often a belief in an afterlife. Usually it’s because doubt in the beliefs will mean loss of societal status.

What most lockdown believers don’t realise is they’re playing out the sunk cost fallacy: they haven’t fully taken stock of the amount of their freedoms they’ve given up to the lockdown. Therefore, the lockdown has to be true. And because they’ve stuck with it for so long, they lockdown must continue, otherwise the willingly abandoned freedoms and economic security lockdown has taken from them will be in vain.

So, when presented with evidence that either the lockdown was never required, or that it’s actually massively damaging, they simply must find a way to defend and cling to it in equal measure. While they once probably shaped their personal identity via their peer groups, they now shape it via how ardently they’ve obeyed – and felt protected by – the lockdown. They’ve dealt, somehow, with the existential crisis of losing their peer group identity, they’re clinging for dear life onto their lockdown identity. The louder they bang their pots and pans on a Thursday at 8pm, the more their identity becomes locked into their psyche.

Any evidence that the lockdown should end is an attack on them and who they’ve reinvented themselves to be.

Cults typically work hard at the beginning to isolate new recruits from existing social groups; family and friends. Lockdown enthusiasts have wasted no time in sacrificing relationships at the alter of social distancing and “following the guidelines”. Again, to suggest none of this was needed and indeed should stop, creates a panic in their brains; “no it must continue, for look how much I’ve given up!”.

20166 ▶▶▶ Strange Days, replying to Mark H, 1, #1081 of 1297 🔗

Stockholm syndrome?

The classic study, ‘When Prophecy Fails’ has never seemed more apt:
In 1954 Leon Festinger, a brilliant young experimental social psychologist in the process of outlining a new theory of human behavior – the theory of cognitive dissonance – and his colleagues infiltrated a cult who believed the end of the world was only months away. How would these people feel when their prophecy remained unfulfilled? Would they admit the error of their prediction, or would they readjust their reality to make sense of the new circumstances?


20071 ▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to The Spingler, 1, #1082 of 1297 🔗

Ask the 77th Brigade and their mates on SPI-B (the Behavioural Insights Team) why.
Then read The Hyper-Rationality of Crowds: COVID-19 and the Cult of Anxiety – it’s in the side-bar on the right of Toby’s post just in case they are actual people you were in dialogue with.

After that, treat yourself: Sack FB!

20154 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to The Spingler, 2, #1083 of 1297 🔗

Because they can’t handle the reality – that they’ve been complicit in the destruction of their own lives and livelihoods.

20176 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to The Spingler, 4, #1084 of 1297 🔗

I live in Sweden and am a member of a FB group for Brits who are resident here. I have pretty much given up posting anything positive re CV19 as people just jump down my throat – I was called callous for pointing out (very gently and diplomatically) that almost a quarter of the deaths that have occurred here have been of people aged 90+, who would have been vulnerable to any kind of flu virus. It is the *Brits* here who are the ones *not* sending their kids to school and trying to tell the Swedes not to! My Swedish friends are mostly behaving sensibly, though interesting it is the younger ones (ie those at low risk) who are the more fearful..

20431 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to The Spingler, 2, #1085 of 1297 🔗

People love to play the “Isn’t it dreadful?!” game and don’t like it when you refuse to join in.

20031 Hubes, replying to Hubes, 12, #1086 of 1297 🔗

From Jan 1st to May 22nd in England and Wales

1.67% of total deaths are from people under 65 who had covid mentioned on their death certificate

0.09% of total deaths are from people under 40 who had covid mentioned on their death certificate

That just about sums up this nonesense

20112 ▶▶ Invunche, replying to Hubes, 7, #1087 of 1297 🔗

Those are damning figures.

It looks increasingly likely that the annual death toll for 2020 will be in line the “old normal”.

I suspect anything over that will be down to the NHS not looking after cancer/heart/stroke/mental health patients as it should have these last few months.

On the plus side NHS staff must have a herd immunity up at 70% now and as they were the main spreaders I guess the much desired second wave is not going to happen.

20170 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Hubes, 5, #1088 of 1297 🔗

…and probably most of these had co-morbidities, ie Covid was not the main cause of death..

20036 Winston Smith, replying to Winston Smith, 30, #1089 of 1297 🔗

I awoke this morning hoping that this was all a bad dream……. and no, its reality.

However, I went to my ‘underground fight club’ last night and my mental health has had a small upsurge 🙂

Only 4 of us, our instructor and us three 2nd dans, we moaned about the bizarre situation and got stuck in to training. Full contact, with control, no social distancing or gloves 🤣 🤣 🤣

I just wanted to share that with, to say that I think that more people share our point of view and the fear isn’t universal.

20293 ▶▶ ianp, replying to Winston Smith, 2, #1090 of 1297 🔗

Your unique and special skillset may come in handy pretty soon…. 😁 👊

20314 ▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to ianp, 1, #1091 of 1297 🔗


However, sometimes it’s closer than I’d like 😔

20687 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Winston Smith, #1092 of 1297 🔗


I remember how sad we all were when HIV/Aids meant we had to stop biting in training …

20037 Mark H, replying to Mark H, 7, #1093 of 1297 🔗

Are we the Proles, per 1984? For all they outnumbered the Party members and lived in ignorance, at we, like the Proles, desire to be free and avoid Newspeak like “social distancing”. Hope lies with the Proles, as Winston said.

20042 ▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Mark H, 5, #1094 of 1297 🔗

I did 😄

20046 Alex Gold, replying to Alex Gold, 24, #1095 of 1297 🔗

I cant take this anymore. After hearing of two people within my family‘s circle of friends being wrongly labelled as covid deaths, just yesterday my mother’s best friend had also been added to this list of criminal lies.

After a lifetime of smoking upward of 30 cigarettes a day, he had very recently been diagnosed with aggressive lung cancer and given weeks to live.

What the fuck is going on?!

I read this site most days. It’s my first post… I’m so angry. i feel like this needs to be written down.

20108 ▶▶ ianp, replying to Alex Gold, #1096 of 1297 🔗

Here you go… this is your voice. I posted this earlier


Give them hell.

20210 ▶▶▶ Jonathan Castro, replying to ianp, 1, #1097 of 1297 🔗

I did!

20220 ▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to ianp, 2, #1098 of 1297 🔗

Just filled it in, gave them a full load of vitriol and bile and nothing complimentary.

20048 Mark H, replying to Mark H, 12, #1099 of 1297 🔗

Had a listen to Good Morning Scotland there, haven’t listened for weeks. Very interesting change in tone. It used to be about the virus and the deaths and the strain on the NHS. Now it’s all about conditioning people to accept the lockdown and they even had a long segment on Sturgeon’s proposed new laws. They interviewed a barrister who’s chairing a group who’ll be liaising with Police Scotland on these proposed new laws and how they’ll affect human rights. Amazingly, he made the point that the most important human right is the right to life.

His tacit argument was that, while Sturgeon’s new laws – and the BBC host kept talking as if the laws were already a done deal – may infringe on the human right to travel, have a relationship, etc, we should accept the laws as they’re fundamentally about protecting lives, life being a fundamental human right.

Meanwhile, a convicted pedophile has taken his case to the Supreme Court because he was convicted based on evidence gathered by a pedophile hunter group in Scotland. His legal case argues his human right to “have a private life” was breached. And the Supreme Court is actually going to judge on his case…while the whole of Scotland could be subjected to new laws that breach the UN’s Human Rights Charter on freedom to travel, freedom to work, freedom to have a private life, freedom to protest etc etc….

20114 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Mark H, 3, #1100 of 1297 🔗

They interviewed a barrister who’s chairing a group who’ll be liaising with Police Scotland on these proposed new laws and how they’ll affect human rights. Amazingly, he made the point that the most important human right is the right to life .

Change it to the right to not die, which is what he means, and you will see how absurd that is.

20686 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Mark H, #1101 of 1297 🔗

You’d almost think they had a reason to keep the ‘Supreme Court’ occupied with mindless nonsense.

20052 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 2, #1102 of 1297 🔗

The fantastic story of 10 million tested with PCR tests and 200 asymptomatic cases of Covid-19 in Wuhan as part of a retesting with PCR of the whole population. What is the reality? They obviously think their PCR test is 100% specific. But that is not possible. You can’t have something 100% specific test in anything,as far as I know. What could the above test mean? These 200 tests could be false positive. That gives a specifity about 99.99998 % in their PCR test
Even that value seems to me a fantasy figure. You can’t have that specificity

Why haven’t MSM and scientists discussed this figure, which I would think would be of highest interest if we start mass testing in the population or even in TTT? How reliable are the PCR tests?

In earlier virus outbreak (like influenza) you also had isolation of the virus after growing it in cell cultures. This was done to validate the serological test developed for influenza. The so called neutralizing antibodies needed to be measured.
I am probably ignorant but has anybody seen anything about the actual isolation of the Covid-19 virus? I am sure that it must have been done as they have discussed different “clades“ around the world. But what I mean is actually isolation of the virus from individual patients in severe cases from the lungs? Wouldn’t it be interesting to have the actual level of virus instead of relying on PCR? I am not doubting the existence of Covid-19 virus but the whole reliance on an indirect test? Wouldn’t it be nice sometimes have the actual isolation of the virus?

One of the earlier criteria for infection early on in Wuhan (before reliable PCR test) was in severe cases a very “specific” picture of the lungs in CT (only in the severe cases). This specific criteria was dropped when the reliable PCR test was introduced. But, if I remember it correctly, very few actual autopsies were done in China. In Hamburg they did 200 autopsies of Covid-19 patients and according to the pathologist only a few had any signs of that Covid-19 was the cause of the death. I am sure that conclusion could be attacked as you wouldn’t find any traces of the cytokinine storm in tissue specimens and therefore more could have died of Covid-19. But wouldn’t it be interesting to see how the lung tissues looked like in a severe case of Covid-19?

20174 ▶▶ guy153, replying to swedenborg, #1103 of 1297 🔗

They isolated the virus from people’s lungs to make the Chinese vaccine that’s being trialled (“Coronovac”): 4 people from China, 4 from Italy, 1 each from Switzerland, UK and Spain, so as to get a diversity of strains. Then they’re growing that, chemically inactivating it, injecting it into volunteers and hoping for the best.

I don’t think they needed autopsies to get those samples, just a bit of “bronchalveolar lavage fluid”.

Autopsies are certainly interesting and you can see the lung damage. They’re also good for confirming or denying whether the virus spreads to epithelial cells, other organs, even the brain, as you may hear speculation about in the MSM. I don’t believe any autopsies have actually confirmed viral RNA outside of the usual places (lungs, nasal cavity, etc.).

20054 Sim18, 2, #1104 of 1297 🔗

Interesting analysis of excess deaths on the CEBM site. Excess CV deaths not that different from a bad Flu year.


20055 Biker, replying to Biker, 12, #1105 of 1297 🔗

so if i don’t like you and think you’re oppressing me i should nip round and riot in your garden should i? Man your post is ridiculous

20070 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Biker, 8, #1106 of 1297 🔗

If someone tells you that someone they don’t like is oppressing some stranger a long way away, you should riot against someone else completely unconnected.

That’s the “BLM way”.

20057 Biker, replying to Biker, 7, #1107 of 1297 🔗

Day whatever of the global takeover, the News from the Pictish Underground

Unfortunately those waiting to know what the time is from todays Press Conference have been left disappointed as this information will rolled out in three weeks time, if things continue to improve.
Bad news for Citizen Sturgeon as Suzi Quatro has asked for her wig back. Reports that Sturgeon has ordered the body of Amy Winehouse exhumed so she can get her beehive are yet to be confirmed.
The Guardian are saying that the rebels of the Pictish Underground are homophobic and misogynistic after their Leader Robbie The Pict went on television and called the lockdown gay and said Boris Johnston has bigger tits than Citizen Sturgeon. Self declared King of the Picts Robbie also stated that “he doesn’t give a shit about some chinky virus and feels like most of us are immune to it on account of the amount of chips and curry sauce we eat, claiming no one suffers Delhi Belly because of the amount of Tandoori’s we eat.
On a lighter note Monica Lewinski and Edwina Currie are to star in a porno film recreating their famous love scenes with Bill Clinton and John Major entitled “take me on the desk big man i’m gagging for it” Facebook and Twitter are both considering if this is a breach of common decency and haven’t decided if they will allow it on their platforms. Bitchute have no such concerns and Pornhub are wondering if they’ll make another in the back of a taxi. I think a new career beckons for Troy Grandee Edwin Currie, joining other famous women who’ve made the leap into pornography like Dame Vera Lynn, Dame Judy Dench and the corpse of Pussy Galore. With Sean Connery expected to return in the sexy remake of Dr.No surrender to the IRA.

more repots soon…….

20060 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to Biker, 1, #1108 of 1297 🔗

Thanks Biker. Just frightened a customer with loud snorting laughter at the Suzi Quatro gag.

20064 MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 10, #1109 of 1297 🔗

You make some interesting points. I was equally disappointed by the comments about the BLM demonstrations but not very surprised, given Toby Young’s known views and the apparent political leanings of many of the followers of this site.

For a more nuanced and, frankly, more grown-up ‘take’ on what’s behind the BLM demonstrations, read this: https://off-guardian.org/2020/06/01/the-minneapolis-putsch/

Toby has acknowledged several times that this site has become a refuge for a very broad church of lockdown sceptics.  Personally I doubt if I share many views at all with the majority of people on here.  I, too, cringe at the Bulldogs and the knee-jerk, barely-veiled racism of many of the BLM comments. I don’t like the term ‘bed-wetters’ either, although it is funny, and I can see your point about how G&S spoofs probably label LSs almost as much as bulldogs. However, I think Annie’s spoofs are brilliant and you don’t have to be a ‘Righty-Tighty Libertarian’ to appreciate them.

However, as I posted what seems a long time ago (it was probably only about a week, but seems a lot longer!) I would rather be stuck in a trench with some of you RTLs, dodgy views and all, than with a lot of the deluded, pathetic, apologies for dissidents with whom I thought I was sharing the trench. They are not here anyway, they are mostly cowering in their beds posting about bringing down the government or something.

So, here we all are and still fighting the war which I don’t think is quite lost, yet.

20091 ▶▶ Mark, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 9, #1110 of 1297 🔗

CJ Hopkins is making basically the same point, though more narrowly focused, that I have been making here in less apologetic terms:

racism in America has been cynically instrumentalized, not by the Russians, but by the so-called Resistance, in order to delegitimize Trump and, more importantly, everyone who voted for him, as a bunch of white supremacists and racists

He’s just dressing it up in a lot of concessions to the antiracist dogma that is really no different to coronapanic dogma, in its near-universal acceptance despite its shaky relation to reality. And it’s been imposed by many of the same people and methods, just over a longer period.

So people who assume that this must be a “racist murder”, when the only honest description at this stage would be “death with police involved”, are very much part of the problem,.and they are the ones actually “inciting violence”, as Hopkins points out.

As for concrete68’s criticism, Toby just legitimately drew attention to the outright hypocrisy in the coronapanickers’ attitude to the BLM’ers ignoring of coronapanic rules. What concrete clearly wants is for Toby to join most of the rest of the political and media classes in silencing himself on politically incorrect points in order to “maintain focus”, thereby becoming part of the wider problem. (That’s the charitable interpretation – the less charitable but equally legitimate interpretation of his words would be that he just wants his own political positions protected and to silence those of which he disapproves.)

Racism is a hugely difficult topic to discuss because the term is so instrumentalised and so dishonestly used, by the people referred to by Hopkins in the piece you linked. I suspect my comments in relation to BLM are among those you describe as “barely veiled racism”, because in order to be effectively anti-antiracism, one ends up pointing things out that people find uncomfortable. Unless you go the Hopkins route and pay full lip-service to it (I do not say here that he does not believe what he says on that score), but then you remain part of the problem. There are advantages to that route, but it is not the only route.

And finally the crowning absurdity is that the whole issue of police violence is basically an American one. American police kill quite a lot of people – a lot more whites than blacks in fact, and that’s an issue for Americans to decide whether they are concerned about. Bringing it to other countries to try to put pressure on Americans to address it in particular directions or to try to score political points in those countries is the height of dishonest, cynical or deluded hypocrisy and it absolutely should be called out as such, however uncomfortable it might be to do so.

20197 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Mark, 5, #1111 of 1297 🔗

No, the BLM issue as raised by Toby is absolutely bang on relevant to the coronapanic hypocrisy, for the reasons I’ve explained, and the fact that you would prefer it not be mentioned says more about you than about Toby.

At this stage, this is just discussion following on from that and if you can’t cope with its mere existence then you have a problem. There might come a point when it is taken too far and threatens to hijack the site, in which case it would be a problem for Toby, but here you are objecting to the expression of opinions you dislike at such a ridiculously early stage that I frankly suspect you just want to silence those opinions you dislike and are merely using supposed respectability as a pretext.

20225 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Mark, 4, #1112 of 1297 🔗

But what you are objecting to as supposedly “unrelated” is clearly not at all unrelated, as has been pointed out to you more than once already. Toby’s mention of it was precisely predicated on exactly the point of direct relationship between the two – the clear and obvious hypocrisy of the coronapanickers on the topic of the BLMers’ demonstrations. Subsequent discussions have ranged further, but not unduly so, and that’s what discussions tend to do.

And I think Toby stated on several occasions that he believed Cummings should go (rather surprisingly to me, since I assumed he would find that difficult for personal reasons). So I’m not sure what you mean when you say he “missed an open goal” on that. Are you saying that for reasons of political advantage he should have pretended to be much more outraged than he was, and should have pretended to respect most of those chasing Cummings more than he does?

20069 Sarigan, replying to Sarigan, 2, #1113 of 1297 🔗

Where are the Govt. and MSM getting their 8000 new cases a day from or am I missing something?



According to the .Gov site, 444 new lab confirmed cases on 01 June.

20078 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Sarigan, 1, #1114 of 1297 🔗

It’s an estimate based on samples and projections I think. They’ve always said they reckon at least 10 times as many people have had it as have tested positive as they only ever tested those with symptoms bad enough to merit it. From what I’ve read, it seems fairly accurate, though it may not include those who have been exposed by had natural immunity.

I don’t think number of cases is hugely important, it’s the number of hospitalisations.

20104 ▶▶ Tenchy, replying to Sarigan, #1115 of 1297 🔗

I guess it’s a guess. 8000 new cases is about 0.01% of the population. I think I heard one of the “experts” mentioning that there were “about” 8000 people currently infected in the UK, which is, of course, something completely different and is perhaps closer to the mark. Regardless, I wonder which it is? I expect SAGE and the other soothsayers are also wondering.

20115 ▶▶ Snake Oil Pussy, replying to Sarigan, 2, #1116 of 1297 🔗

It’s an estimate based on the ONS study where 45 out of a random sample of approx 19,000 people tested positive over a 2 week period, then scaling that up to the whole UK population. Not only is the margin for error very large on such a small number, it it also possible that the test produces a very small number of false positives. This would make it useless for measuring low levels of prevalence in the community, while still being valid as a diagnostic tool for people with symptoms.
And yet this one indicator seems to be used as the basis for SAGE to say that the R number is hovering dangerously close to 1 while confirmed cases, hospital admissions, ICU cases and deaths are all trending firmly downwards.

20075 Julian, replying to Julian, 11, #1117 of 1297 🔗

An especially depressing and infuriating report on how (predictably) government and TFL are going to wreck one of the world’s greatest cities (London) and a huge part of the UK’s economy, for those who live there and for those who visit it.


Hardly any passengers will be allowed on the Tube, compulsory masks. London will be deserted and/or choked with traffic. And TFL will need bailing out with billions every year, forever.

And the reporter hasn’t made an effort to contact anyone about this to ask questions such as whether this is sustainable, what impact it will have on the lives and economy of London and the South East.

20107 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Julian, 11, #1118 of 1297 🔗

It gets tiresome pointing it out over and over again, but it just doesn’t cease to amaze how far people are prepared to take these delusional fears down the road of inflicting real and substantial damage upon our society.

Do they really not understand the costs involved and the implications for all their own hopes and political dreams, or are they really so terrified that they understand but think it worthwhile?

20136 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Mark, 5, #1119 of 1297 🔗

I would love to know the answer to that. I think it is partly the two things you say, but partly that it gives them a chance to feel important, grave and statesmanlike, to feel they are making big decisions and making a difference, rather than just managing something on a business as usual basis.

Vanity is powerful and corrosive.

I once talked to a friend of mine who moves in such circles about big corporate mergers and takeovers. In his view, one of the main motivations for these was not cost saving or synergy or whatever, but simply that the bosses were a bit bored and felt like doing something different and exciting. This friend of mine is a shrewd chap and I have no reason to disbelieve him.

20168 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Julian, #1120 of 1297 🔗

Tbh I’ve heard the same about big business deals. I’m inclined to think you are right on that being a factor here as well.

20076 Bella, 3, #1121 of 1297 🔗

Take on the police how exactly?

20084 hotrod, replying to hotrod, -8, #1122 of 1297 🔗
20087 ▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to hotrod, 6, #1123 of 1297 🔗

Err… 🤔


20088 ▶▶ Nic, replying to hotrod, 6, #1124 of 1297 🔗

In 6 months time when figures can be better understood iam sure that Sweden will be proved right in their approach to early to condem them now I mean they have still done better than many countries in the world and haven’t imposed a police state on their population.Meanwhile the uk is heading for at least 3 million unemployed by the end of the year probably more.

20109 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to hotrod, 7, #1125 of 1297 🔗

Why would it? He said there’s room for improvement.

Perhaps you could state your position on why you think it might and we can discuss that.

20110 ▶▶ swedenborg, replying to hotrod, 11, #1126 of 1297 🔗

They did several wrong things in Sweden primarily not protecting the care homes with a late decision to stop visitors to care homes 1st April, when the infection was already wide spread.
Probably also regretting not investigating clusters more extensively. But there could not be a total lockdown in Sweden because of legal reasons. You cannot lockdown the country unless declaration of war. There are no laws in peace time to quarantine healthy people. You can only use the Public Health Law to quarantine a school, hotel, building but not a whole country. There is also a very hot issue about the care homes in Stockholm with many political correct sensitivities which you cannot discuss in MSM.

20156 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to swedenborg, 7, #1127 of 1297 🔗

Yes, it has not been perfect, nonetheless schools have stayed open and upper secondary schools, universities and adult education centres have now been given the green light to re-open, so there is confidence that this will not make things worse at this stage. I think the mental health of the Swedish youth might not have been as adversely affected as their counterparts in the UK…

20278 ▶▶▶ steve, replying to swedenborg, 2, #1128 of 1297 🔗

There were no laws here to allow this either but they just made some up.

20111 ▶▶ Dinger, replying to hotrod, 5, #1129 of 1297 🔗

The DT reporter, Richard Orange, has always been against Sweden’s approach so no surprise there. Also, it’s a puff piece as Anders Tegnell only says he thinks that the Swedish Public Health Authority didn’t get the balance right with hindsight. Nothing about house arrest!

20113 ▶▶ Mark, replying to hotrod, 2, #1130 of 1297 🔗

It’s definitely damaging because it makes it much harder now to use the Swedish example in discussion. Tegnell is too honest and/or does not share our broader goals in prioritising liberty, and his words will undoubtedly be exploited.

20130 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Mark, 2, #1131 of 1297 🔗

I haven’t been able to read the whole thing as it’s behind a paywall, but any nuance will be lost and those with an agenda will create headlines from it that will be used against us, and almost no-one will bother to look at what he actually said and think about what it really means.

20131 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Julian, 1, #1132 of 1297 🔗

Rapidly being picked up by other elements of the coronapanic propaganda industry:

Coronavirus: Sweden’s Tegnell admits too many died

20146 ▶▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Mark, 1, #1133 of 1297 🔗

In all the interviews I have seen with Anders Tegnell here in Sweden it is the failure to adequately protect people in care homes that he regrets – not the CV19 policy as a whole.

20163 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Carrie, #1134 of 1297 🔗

These interviews seem to suggest some shifting in his views on this in the light of experience and increasing information (as was famously supposedly said by John Maynard Keynes: “when the facts change, I change my opinions”). But obviously he’s not saying Sweden should have gone to full lockdown.

20177 ▶▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Julian, #1135 of 1297 🔗

If you type outline.com/ after https:// you’ll get past the paywall. Doesn’t work with The Times though. Anyone know how to get through that?

20248 ▶▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 1, #1136 of 1297 🔗

Thanks for the tip

20221 ▶▶▶▶ Barnabas, replying to Julian, #1137 of 1297 🔗

Here is the article from the DT.

Sweden’s state epidemiologist Anders Tegnell has admitted that Sweden should have imposed greater restrictions to bring the country’s epidemic under control, the first time he has expressed doubts about his decision not to impose a lockdown.
In an interview with Sweden’s state radio broadcaster SR, Tegnell said that, given the Sweden’s stubbornly high death rate, he no longer believed that he, and The Public Health Agency of Sweden, had got the balance right.
“If we were hit by the same disease, knowing exactly what we know today, I think we would end up doing something between what Sweden has done, and what the rest of the world has done,” he said. “I think there’s certainly room for improvement in what we’ve done in Sweden, absolutely.”
Sweden’s coronavirus strategy, which is much less restrictive than that of any other developed country , has received enormous attention globally in recent months.
Schools for those up the age of 16, bars and restaurants, shopping centres, and sports facilities, have all been allowed to remain open, while gatherings of up to 50 people have always been permitted.
The country’s authorities have instead placed a heavy reliance on voluntary measures , with people asked to stay home if they have even light symptoms, to follow hygiene rules, and to keep their distance.
Doubts started to grow over the approach, however, when Sweden’s death rate began in April to pull dramatically away from those of Denmark and Norway, which both imposed much more thoroughgoing restrictions.
Sweden’s death rate , at 443 per million inhabitants, is now ten times that of Norway , four times that of Denmark , in line with that of France, and slowly catching up with that of Italy.
Tegnell has formerly largely laid the blame for Sweden’s high death rate at the failure of the municipalities and private companies running the country’s care homes to adequately protect the elderly.
The interview marked the first time he has also questioned his decision to impose such light restrictions.
But he said that because so many other countries have imposed blanket lockdowns, it remained difficult to know which measures, exactly, had made the difference.
“It would be good to know more precisely what to shut down to prevent the spread of infection better,” he said.
“As it is, every country threw everything in right away. Sweden is one of the few countries that has worked up one stop at a time.
“Maybe we will know more when people start removing measures one at a time, then maybe we will get some kind of lesson about what else, besides what we did, you could do without imposing a total shutdown.”

20134 ▶▶▶ Sally, replying to Mark, 2, #1138 of 1297 🔗

I was very disappointed to see him say this, especially after recent revelations from Danish and Norwegian officials that reflect well on Swedish decisions. Sweden’s mortality will probably normalise over the next few months, too. Tegnell’s words are already being widely reported. I wondered like you whether he shares goals regarding liberty, voluntarism and the like.

20157 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Sally, #1139 of 1297 🔗

I’m pretty sure he doesn’t, and indeed I’ve never really thought he did. He has always been pretty honest and imo he’s just as managerialist as the rest of them, it’s just that he did not fall for the panic that led so many of them into supporting lockdown. But as his comments here conform, he has no problem in principle with lockdown, only as a matter of practicality.

That’s fair enough, it’s just not my position.

20180 ▶▶▶ mark baker, replying to Mark, 4, #1140 of 1297 🔗

This hughlights the difference in political culture between Scandinavians and us. It seems to be permissible there to admit you’ve made a mistake. The Norwegian Prime Minister did it; the Swedes previously did it with regard their approach to care homes. And is that not reasonable? Running a country must be tough especially at times like these and it’s impossible to avoid making mistakes. Having the bravery and honesty to admit that is extraordinary and speaks to me of a political culture light years ahead of ours.

20189 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to mark baker, 1, #1141 of 1297 🔗

Yes, absolutely. Another profound problem with our political and media culture.

20129 ▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to hotrod, 8, #1142 of 1297 🔗

This is bulshit – not the interview, the guy just tells it how it is, but the DT. Seems Telegraph doesn’t have a coherent line on CV19 at all. But Sweden’s fatality rate is 430 per million as compared to UK’s 580 per million, they have a higher density population than Norway and Denmark and a far greater immigrant population with people of a darker skin less able to absorb Vitamin D in the northern hemisphere of which there would be precious little in the winter. Of course they could have done things differently, so could everyone else. And I bet their collateral deaths are nowhere near as high as ours.

20135 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 2, #1143 of 1297 🔗

In other words statistically miniscule Vs statistically miniscule.

I am sick to death of league tables with varying degrees of microscopic numbers when compared to y’know, number of people on the planet

20175 ▶▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to ianp, 4, #1144 of 1297 🔗

Me too. But I’m more sickened about how this narrative is being sustained. IT IS ONE BIG LIE. Someone mentioned on here a statistic of 40,000 deaths from flu this year. I haven’t checked this out but I can believe it and it is beyond my understanding why people are buying into this Covid crap as if it’s the Black Death. I know hysteria is infectious, but to the extent that everyone’s quality of life is going to be destroyed forever? HOW ON EARTH CAN PEOPLE ACCEPT THAT UNSOCIAL DISTANCING IS HERE TO STAY????!!!! Sorry, I’m shouting. I’m getting furious.

20222 ▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 7, #1145 of 1297 🔗

I agree Nigel. I mean, I could understand this hysteria if people were literally dropping dead in the street but they are not. And, as others have mentioned, if this thing is so damned virulent, why aren’t supermarket staff dropping dead at a rate of knots.

As for the economic armageddon that is heading our way, I feel like I am bashing my head against a brick wall on this one. Just had someone mention the ‘government help’. I pointed out that this largesse will all have to be paid back and again I was asked “… oh, do you have to pay it back?…” I pointed out that we will *all* be paying it back for decades to come – response: a blank look! I really do despair …

20153 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 3, #1146 of 1297 🔗

Exactly. I am living in Sweden and have not heard or seen anything about collateral deaths… it cannot have been an extreme problem or there would be more about it in the papers and on the news. The healthcare system *has* had to adapt, but mostly in small ways, eg online consultations wherever possible, no visitors to hospital wards generally and in outpatient clinics you are not allowed to bring anyone with you to the appointment. Non-urgent appointments and surgery have been postponed. Some GP surgeries have suspended their ‘drop-in’ clinics or changed them to fixed appointment times. And you see a lot more of the cleaners in every surgery and clinic!

20272 ▶▶▶▶ Marion, replying to Carrie, 2, #1147 of 1297 🔗

But who on earth goes to see a doctor if it isn’t urgent? (Perhaps a few hypochondriacs or those like my poor mother who were in the early stages of dementia – and her visits were urgent in her mind). But if you are in pain, or worried about a lump or discharge…it’s worrying that we are being denied normal health care, not to mention dental care, eye and hearing tests. The longer this goes on the more awful it becomes.

20204 ▶▶ 4096, replying to hotrod, #1148 of 1297 🔗

As others have said – we will see in a year when most of world economies will have gone into an unprecedented recession and Sweden is doing relatively fine.
Not to mention the civil liberties argument etc.

Also, I think he might be saying that, at least partly, because of the disappointing results of a serological survey they have done in Sweden recently. It showed that only 14% of Stockholm and 7% of the whole population has antibodies – purportedly nowhere near herd immunity levels. The Swedes predicted it would be at least 20%. He looked very distressed to me when he presented the findings during their press conference (last week I think).

But this paper might explain what happened:
Apparently 30% of people positive for the virus, with mild to no symptoms, do not develop antibodies.

In addition, there is a lot evidence suggesting that herd immunity might require much lower percentage of the population to be exposed to the virus.

20085 Nobody2020, replying to Nobody2020, #1149 of 1297 🔗

The One Ring represents the corruptive power that this pandemic has proffered on our illustrious leaders.


Elrond: The time of the Elves is over, my people are leaving these shores. Who will you look to when we’ve gone? The Dwarves? They hide in their houses seeking riches they care nothing for the troubles of others.

Gandalf: It is in men that we must place our hope.

Elrond: Men? Men are weak…it is because of men the ring survives

Elrond: I was there the day the strength of men failed

Elrond: It should have ended that day but evil was allowed to endure

I don’t think I need to explain how this mirrors what we are seeing today.

20211 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Nobody2020, 1, #1150 of 1297 🔗

It means we need loads of Longbottom Leaf pipeweed ?

20233 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to JohnB, 1, #1151 of 1297 🔗

I think the hobbit gangs’ distribution networks have been badly disrupted by the lockdown, though. Might take some time to restore supplies, especially if there are turf wars with the dwarf and orc gangs.

20297 ▶▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Mark, 1, #1152 of 1297 🔗

Talk to Bill Ferny…..

20089 ianp, replying to ianp, 4, #1153 of 1297 🔗

Look no. This whole thing is manipulation, and that includes the BLM protests. It’s so obvious and insidious if you look at the number of extremist bandwagon jumpers onto that.

It brings out the worst in people on both sides. Creates anger, division and hate and obfuscates the real fundamental issue : lockdown destruction and the obliteration of our democracy and freedom

I have read some comments on here I don’t like from fellow sceptics : anti immigrant (my parents were immigrants), Britain is best etc. and Yeah those mugs are not really my cup of tea.

I despise extremists on both sides and boy oh boy has this lockdown brought them out the woodwork (predominantly the leftie ones)

ANTIFA fascists, momentum, extinction rebellion, the virtue signallers, the narcissistic, the looney left… And I dread if the EDL scum rear their ugly heads at some point.

Fuck the lot of them

20125 ▶▶ Fed up, replying to ianp, 5, #1154 of 1297 🔗

It would be disappointing if this forum which is attempting to collect all the available data and all examples of oppression in the name of COVID Secure becomes aligned with any particular political viewpoint. The issue of LD and SD transcends all such divisions and is about our civil rights and the need to ensure governments govern in a proportionate manner and do not use a crisis as an excuse for a power grab.

20128 ▶▶▶ Fed up, replying to Fed up, #1155 of 1297 🔗

Sorry want to amend the above to insert “real or manufactured” after crisis

20250 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Fed up, #1156 of 1297 🔗

Yep, agree. That was pretty much my point. We should definitely not be aligned with any of them but when the choices seem to be non-existent, where do you go?

Conservatives (right) = lockdown, ridiculous rules and guidelines and barefaced lies, fear mongerers
Labour (left) = Even more lockdown, harsher lockdown, opportunistic virtue signalling bandwagon jumpers and fear mongerers

I am not a right winger at all, but presented with those 2 options and only those 2, I know which one I would be forced to choose

20439 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to ianp, #1157 of 1297 🔗

We need a new option!!

20161 ▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to ianp, 5, #1158 of 1297 🔗

I’ve never been an extremist and up until recently most of my political allegiances were with the left. But there are plenty of people here holding opposing views with whom I agree. The problem I have now is that the current circumstances, aka the lockdown, are making me extreme. Not in a party political sense but in the sense of destroying this delusion that we are seemingly willingly labouring under. And how do you do that? It seems to me that democratically more people are in favour of these measures than are not – because they are convinced, by dodgy science, that there is a real and present danger. And the politicians have perpetuated this lie to achieve a very unpleasant end. I do not want my civil liberties trashed, I do not want to be told how near I can be to another person, but if these measures are supported by the majority what do I do? I become extreme. It seems to me civil order is only kept by the tacit acceptance of a bunch of rules that suit most people. Clearly there are some people on here who want to start banging heads together and I am one of them. But does that make us extreme? One thing’s for sure: the ballot box isn’t working. Isn’t this how revolutions ferment? And is that extreme?

20185 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 6, #1159 of 1297 🔗

We are probably on opposite sides of most issues outside of this coronapanic, but I don’t have a problem respecting your expression of your opinions when you make them effectively, even if I disagree with them. You talk a lot of sense and argue your points well.

You make a very good point here – we here are all extremists by virtue of our views on the lockdown and the coronapanic. So, bizarrely, are establishment figures like Lord Sumption and Peter Hitchens.

I’ve long recognised that I am de facto an extremist, though I would say that my views have remained moderate and reasonably static on underlying principles for half a century, while this society has moved so as to make me an extremist even whilst holding to opinions that were regarded as mere common sense when I was young. So in my mind, I am a moderate living in an extreme society, which many would doubtless suggest makes me as delusional as any coronapanicker or BLMer.

But I would propose “moderates living in an extreme society” as a pretty good description of lockdown sceptics, tbh….

20192 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Mark, 1, #1160 of 1297 🔗

I should add: welcome to my world.

20205 ▶▶▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Mark, 4, #1161 of 1297 🔗

Keeping it polite I think is crucial however strong your feelings are, so the respect is mutual. I do not support every ‘left-ish’ position since I am not partisan and like to think I follow good sense. I agree that you might not see good sense as I do and that’s part of the debate. But above all I value liberty and I’m not posturing when I quote Patrick Henry and ‘Give me Liberty or give me death.’ I have no interest in living for the sake of being alive. We are at a crossroads here and a very dangerous one, and I will man the barricades with anyone of any political persuasion in the fight for sustaining our liberties. I cannot stand intolerance of another’s point of view in any case. After the last election I gave up social media of all types because I was drowning in the hatred and bile that was spewing out of them as if from a cracked sewer pipe. I feel much better for it. I like this site and have come to like many people on here that hold views divergent from my own. I knew Toby’s work before I came here and didn’t empathise with much of it but we had a very agreeable exchange of emails when I couldn’t get into the site and he was very helpful.

20106 Victoria, 16, #1162 of 1297 🔗

The mask is as good as the fence to prevent …..

20121 Victoria, replying to Victoria, 13, #1163 of 1297 🔗

We were treated like children: Group on why it challenged lockdown regulations (in South Africa) https://www.timeslive.co.za/news/south-africa/2020-06-03-we-were-treated-like-children-group-on-why-it-challenged-lockdown-regulations/

“We are of the view that there should be a proper balance between regulating the disease and violating the rights of the people. I know that it’s important to protect the lives of people but it’s important to protect the other rights of the people not to starve, for instance.”

“Judge Norman Davis on Tuesday suspended the declaration of invalidity for 14 days, giving the government time to “review, amend and republish regulations” that were consistent with the constitution.”

Court judgement shows why government should always be challenged https://www.news24.com/news24/analysis/first-take-court-judgment-shows-why-government-should-always-be-challenged-20200603

Judge “ Davis repeatedly echoes what Professor Glenda Gray, president of the SA Medical Research Council, was recently pilloried for: that the regulations are unscientific, nonsensical and seemingly thumb sucks.

Ramaphosa’s ministers have largely refused to adequately explain their decisions to South Africans. With every new set of regulations announced, their approach and attitude was that the public simply must swallow what the state has prescribed. Whether it was the continued ban on cigarettes, the state of the public health system or how and when schools will be reopened, communication has been a shambles, honesty has been lacking and transparency and accountability non-existent.

Perhaps the most enlightening aspect of the court judgment was the chronicling of Dlamini-Zuma’s disinterest in the legal challenge. Return dates to file affidavits were repeatedly missed, and when court papers were filed it was done in the name of the director general instead of the minister.”

20126 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Victoria, 3, #1164 of 1297 🔗

Good for them. It is encouraging.

20178 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Julian, 1, #1165 of 1297 🔗

I like the term ‘thumb sucks’. Suggest we begin using it here in the UK. 🙂

20123 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 15, #1166 of 1297 🔗

From the Chief Idiot in charge of WHO
“The results of this survey confirm what we have been hearing from countries for a number of weeks now,” said Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, Director-General of the World Health Organization. “Many people who need treatment for diseases like cancer, cardiovascular disease and diabetes have not been receiving the health services and medicines they need since the COVID-19 pandemic began. It’s vital that countries find innovative ways to ensure that essential services for NCDs continue, even as they fight COVID-19.”
Who suggested the most inappropriate measure (lockdown) for African countries? WHO

20127 ▶▶ Julian, replying to swedenborg, 4, #1167 of 1297 🔗

The WHO seem to have done very badly

20142 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to swedenborg, 19, #1168 of 1297 🔗

I agree 1000% with the Orange Man on this.
Banish them into bankruptcy. They did it to half the world, let’s do it right back.

20162 ▶▶▶ paulito, replying to Farinances, 4, #1169 of 1297 🔗

Should be abolished. What a useless shower.

20165 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Farinances, 6, #1170 of 1297 🔗

As someone who always regarded them as an internationalist abomination, I have no problem with that…

20182 ▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to Farinances, 7, #1171 of 1297 🔗

They should be having all their documentation and communication being seized for investigation bankruptcy is no where near enough.

20164 ▶▶ paulito, replying to swedenborg, 2, #1172 of 1297 🔗

Oh great, the WHOs on the case. Murdering scumbags.

20138 EmbraFlaneur, 18, #1173 of 1297 🔗

On page 3 of the weekly NRS report published today: “Deaths have returned to normal levels in most areas” of Scotland.

First Minister at Holyrood this afternoon: “Life should not feel normal”.

20147 Farinances, 4, #1174 of 1297 🔗

I’d quite like to burn your house down cause I’m pissed off with Donald Trump. You gonna let me?

20159 Michael C, replying to Michael C, 24, #1175 of 1297 🔗

I have just been listening to Jeremy Vine’s BBC Radio 2 midday programme and my blood pressure has gone vertical. No doubt following on from Clive Myrie’s BBC Ten O’clock News piece last week on the Royal London Hospital and the hospital’s battle with Covid 19, a stunningly manipulative report even by the standards of the Beeb, Vine has gathered together a number of people who have lost loved ones to the disease, and ‘experts’ who comment on the mental anguish suffered by these relatives and friends.

In terms of manipulative broadcasting it leaves Myrie’s report way behind. The stories told by the relatives are indeed tragic but no more tragic than those of those who have lost relatives to cancer etc., many of whom may have died because Covid 19 blocked their treatment. Is Vine going to turn his programme over to their stories when Covid 19 has run its course? I doubt it! Of course the stories are sad and the loss must be terrible but surely no more terrible than the losses from death experienced in the UK in their hundreds of thousands each year.

One of the main issues mentioned by those relatives telling their stories is the fact that they were unable to say goodbye in person (some were able to talk to the dying relatives on the phone) and attend funerals, and so get closure. My father was badly wounded at Walcheren in 1944 and died in a field hospital of his wounds. My mother did not see him before he died, she was obviously not able to speak to him either, nor was she able to attend his burial since all of this took place in a war zone. Being unable to say a final goodbye is very sad but not unusual.

I do not blame the people telling their stories for taking part but I do blame the BBC for its outrageously manipulative programming on Covid 19 which has reached new and nauseating heights with the Myrie and now Vine reports.

20167 ▶▶ Nigel Baldwin, replying to Michael C, 15, #1176 of 1297 🔗

I have thought for a long time now that the BBC is a disgusting, manipulative organisation and that their presenters are just puppets. We might as well be living in Saddam’s Iraq as far as propaganda goes. If I had the time I’d be campaigning for everyone turning in their licence fees, but I haven’t. Certainly turning in mine though. I’d only miss the rugby and since they’re not broadcasting any sport I’m paying £150 (or whatever it is) a year for nowt. .

20216 ▶▶▶ Marion, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 10, #1177 of 1297 🔗

I cancelled my tv licence direct debit today after many months of thinking about it (also my husband is against the cancellation, but I just can’t stand the injustice of paying for a corrupt institution I never watch or listen to and heartily disagree with on everything. The Blue Peter style childishnesses of its output stopped me watching years ago, but my husband liked to watch the rugby….however, since this Covid nonsense I just can’t take it any more. I hope they lose the right to tax us in this way soon; if others want their idiocy and wokeness they shouldn’t expect me to help pay for it.

20259 ▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Marion, 3, #1178 of 1297 🔗

I’m seriously considering it now, even though it’s due in December. If nothing else, the refund will come in handy!

20265 ▶▶▶▶▶ Marion, replying to kh1485, 6, #1179 of 1297 🔗

Do it! and you’ll get a refund. If we all stopped paying….well wouldn’t that give them something to think about. Except this incompetent ‘government’ would probably pay them through general taxation, so no getting away from the idiocy….

20283 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Marion, 1, #1180 of 1297 🔗

Oh how I wish people would! And if I never have to see Fiona Bruce’s supercilious arched eye-brow ever again that would be a bonus!

20459 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Marion, 1, #1181 of 1297 🔗

The government has already shunted the Beeb a load of taxpayers’ money, hence the blatant propaganda. Cancel and enjoy your refund. Sends a message at least.

20268 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Marion, 1, #1182 of 1297 🔗

Well done ! He can watch the rugby in the pub, Marion. As I do the footie. 🙂

20457 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Marion, #1183 of 1297 🔗

Good for you. Mine expired on Sunday and I’ve refused to renew it.

20207 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Michael C, 6, #1184 of 1297 🔗

Jeremy Vine’s BBC Radio 2 midday programme is to be avoided at all costs. It is always one sided and very sensational. Not good for most of us.

20333 ▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Victoria, #1185 of 1297 🔗

Tim Vine needs to do a joke about it

20262 ▶▶ Chris John, replying to Michael C, 5, #1187 of 1297 🔗

Pandemic Porn. The Beeb needs tearing fown

20181 Jon Glanfield, replying to Jon Glanfield, 3, #1188 of 1297 🔗

No idea about the accuracy of this but thought I’d share it in case its of interest.

Well! Well! Well! People are Waking up! Italy went against the WHO, saying no autopies on Covid-19, (wonder why?) Italy Did 50 autopsies and here’s something you all need to read, before the nonexpert experts from FB delete it!

Breaking Covid news! Italy has allegedly discovered covid is not a virus, but a bacterium. It clots the blood and reduces the oxygen saturation from dispersing throughout the body. They went against the World Health Organization’s that no bodies be autopsied. When Italian Ministry of Health ordered many autopsies, they found the blood was clotted in all of the patients veins. They immediately started using aspirin 100mg and a coagulant medication. And have had immense success. 14,000 people were released from the hospital as healthy and covid free. Italy is demanding Bill Gates and the World health Organization be held accountable for crimes against humanity for misleading, misdirecting, and withholding life saving information from the world, which cost the lives of thousands. Ventilators and ICU units were not necessary. A mandated vaccine is not necessary. Covid19 is a bacterium, easily

treated with aspirin and coagulant. Spread the word! Make this global. Hopefully our president will learn about this and do something about it! Before we lose all of our constitutional freedoms.

Another article regarding it:

Carlie J Gardipee 2020

Coronavirus / Health

Discovery: Autopsies Prove that COVID-19 is a Disseminated Intravascular Coagulation (Pulmonary Thrombosis)

Posted by Chinonyerem Emmanuella

It is now clear that the whole world has been attacking the so-called Coronavirus Pandemic wrongly due to a serious pathophysiological diagnosis error.

According to valuable information from Italian pathologists, ventilators and intensive care units were never needed.

Autopsies performed by the Italian pathologists has shown that it is not pneumonia but it is Disseminated Intravascular Coagulation (Thrombosis) which ought to be fought with antibiotics, antivirals, anti-inflammatories and anticoagulants.

If this is true for all cases, that means the whole world is about to resolve this novel pandemic earlier than expected.

However, protocols are currently being changed in Italy who have been adversely affected by this pandemic.

The impressive case of a Mexican family in the United States who claimed they were cured with a home remedy was documented: three 500 mg aspirins dissolved in lemon juice boiled with honey, taken hot.

The next day they woke up as if nothing had happened to them! Well, the scientific information that follows proves they are right!

Also Read: Coronavirus: Safety Health Measures Beyond the Surgical Mask and Hand Sanitizers


This information was released by a medical researcher from Italy:

“Thanks to 50 autopsies performed on patients who died of COVID-19, Italian pathologists have discovered that IT IS NOT PNEUMONIA, strictly speaking, because the virus does not only kill pneumocytes of this type, but uses an inflammatory storm to create an endothelial vascular thrombosis.”

In disseminated intravascular coagulation, the lung is the most affected because it is the most inflamed, but there is also a heart attack, stroke and many other thromboembolic diseases.

In fact, the protocols left antiviral therapies useless and focused on anti-inflammatory and anti-clotting therapies. These therapies should be done immediately, even at home, in which the treatment of patients responds very well.

If the Chinese had denounced it, they would have invested in home therapy, not intensive care! So, the way to fight it is with antibiotics, anti-inflammatories and anticoagulants.

An Italian pathologist reports that the hospital in Bergamo did a total of 50 autopsies and one in Milan, 20, that is, the Italian series is the highest in the world, the Chinese did only 3, which seems to fully confirm the information.

In a nutshell, the disease is determined by a disseminated intravascular coagulation triggered by the virus; therefore, it is not pneumonia but pulmonary thrombosis, a major diagnostic error.

Some world leaders doubled the number of resuscitation places in the ICU, with unnecessary exorbitant costs.

According to the Italian pathologist, treatment in ICUs is useless if thromboembolism is not resolved first. “If we ventilate a lung where blood does not circulate, it is useless, in fact, nine (9) patients out of ten (10) will die because the problem is cardiovascular, not respiratory.”

“It is venous microthrombosis, not pneumonia, that determines mortality.”

According to the literature, inflammation induces thrombosis through a complex but well-known pathophysiological mechanism.

Unfortunately, what the scientific literature said, especially Chinese, until mid-March was that anti-inflammatory drugs should not be used.

Now, the therapy being used in Italy is with anti-inflammatories and antibiotics, as in influenza, and the number of hospitalized patients has been reduced.

He also discovered that many deaths, even in their 40s, had a history of fever for 10 to 15 days, which were not treated properly.

The inflammation does a great deal of tissue damage and creates ground for thrombus formation. However, the main problem is not the virus, but the immune hyperreaction that destroys the cell where the virus is installed.

In fact, patients with rheumatoid arthritis have never needed to be admitted to the ICU because they are on corticosteroid therapy, which is a great anti-inflammatory.

With this important discovery, it is possible to return to normal life and open closed deals due to the quarantine, though not immediately, but with time.

Kindly share so that the health authorities of each country can make their respective analysis of this information, prevent further deaths and redirect investments appropriately; the vaccine may come later….. Confirmation of last week’s post where I was consistently told I was spreading false info. Thanks Marsha

20193 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Jon Glanfield, #1189 of 1297 🔗

Thanks, very interesting. Can they explain why quite a number of other doctors have had success treating CV19 with hydrocholoriquine + zinc + AZT? (I believe the latter of those 3 is an antibiotic of some sort – which might explain it, given that I believe antibiotics work on bacteria and not viruses..)

20277 ▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Carrie, 2, #1190 of 1297 🔗

It is a virus. You may get a secondary bacterial infection which antibiotics would help with.

HCQ + zinc, AZT and Remdesivir are all antivirals.

You do get blood clotting issues and heart failure. There is some speculation going on about whether the actual virus is infecting these tissues or if it’s just inflammation caused by the immune response. As far as I know nobody has actually found viral RNA anywhere except the lungs, nose etc.

The antiviral treatments are probably best used earlier on. When things starts to get critical, treating the inflammation is likely more important. But you may still need oxygen and/or ventilation because if someone can’t breathe they will die in the space of a few minutes.

Nobody really knows what combination of factors leads to the deadly inflammation and it’s probably different in different patients. Not being vitamin D deficient certainly helps.

20329 ▶▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to guy153, #1191 of 1297 🔗

My understanding was that azithromycin, an antibacterial, was used rather than AZT (azidothymidine), or perhaps both have been used

20213 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Jon Glanfield, #1192 of 1297 🔗

Did David Icke tell you all about this?

20214 ▶▶ Bill h, replying to Jon Glanfield, 2, #1193 of 1297 🔗

Interesting indeed.

It would appear that the excellent Dr Malcolm Kendrick is reaching a similar conclusion.


Well worth a read if you like the medical situation clearly explained.

20236 ▶▶▶ Sarigan, replying to Bill h, 1, #1194 of 1297 🔗

Another study seemingly backing this up:

Based on the analysis of clinical data available to date, 71.4% of those who died and 0.6% of those who survived showed signs of explicit disseminated intravascular coagulation syndrome (DIC-syndrome).


Google it however and the three top answer debunk it – funny that.

20218 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Jon Glanfield, 2, #1195 of 1297 🔗

Crimes against humanity: Italian member of Parliament demands arrest of Bill Gates https://www.naturalhealth365.com/crimes-against-humanity-bill-gates-3422.html

“In 2012, the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation offered a multi-million dollar bribe to Nigeria to initiate compulsory vaccines. Gates promised every Nigerian state a half a million dollars each if they passed “a rigorous set of criteria based on outcomes in their polio program and routine immunization services” (per the foundation’s boastful website). This was after he had gone on record stating that immunizations could help reduce the world’s population.

In 2014, the Gates-funded World Health Organization (WHO) was accused of giving millions of African women “tetanus” vaccines that contained a sterilizing compound known as human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG). Evidence from as far back as the 1970s shows that WHO researchers had been investigating how to concoct a “birth control vaccine” containing conjugated tetanus toxoid (TT) and hCG.

Gates also famously spearheaded India’s National Technical Advisory Group on Immunization (NTAGI), which mandated massive overlapping immunization schedules to children under the age of five. This vaccine campaign was believed to be the root of an epidemic of non-polio acute flaccid paralysis (NPAFP ) that affected nearly 500,000 Indian children between 2000 and 2017.

The WHO soon thereafter admitted that more children were being injured by the polio vaccine than by the polio virus itself”

20234 ▶▶ OKUK, replying to Jon Glanfield, 5, #1196 of 1297 🔗

Various fact checks suggests there is no substance to these claims. Obviously we already knew Covid-19 caused microscopic clotting – but…a bacterium? Seems unlikely. That said, when you have a serious viral infection, your body is often unable to resist bacterial infections…so that could be part of the underlying story…But I wouldn’t take these specific claims very seriously.

20254 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Jon Glanfield, 1, #1197 of 1297 🔗

This would certainly explain a lot but it’s all a little too neat to ring true.

20269 ▶▶ steve, replying to Jon Glanfield, #1198 of 1297 🔗

Do you have a link/source for that. If so please post it here and you should send it to Toby as well

20472 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Jon Glanfield, #1199 of 1297 🔗

No idea about the accuracy of this but thought I’d share it in case its of interest.

It’s bollox.

Kindly share so that the health authorities of each country can make their respective analysis of this information, prevent further deaths and redirect investments appropriately; the vaccine may come later…..

Obviously spam. Was it circulated via whastapp or similar?

20186 RDawg, replying to RDawg, 37, #1200 of 1297 🔗

I designed this mock up of our supreme leader Boris Jon Sun. It seemed appropriate now that we are living under a de facto dictatorship.

20198 ▶▶ GLT, replying to RDawg, 4, #1201 of 1297 🔗

Brilliant. Can you make a shopping bag??

20230 ▶▶▶ RDawg, replying to GLT, 2, #1202 of 1297 🔗

Yes but only if the State allows it 😉

20267 ▶▶ steve, replying to RDawg, 2, #1203 of 1297 🔗

Crikey that’s scary. Take a bow 👏 👏

20188 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 13, #1204 of 1297 🔗

Remember the Kawasaki like disease in Covid-19 infected children? I think this has been a big thing in MSM, BBC, Piers Morgan etc.
I looked in the UK Kawasaki Disease Foundation web site
I was surprised to see such a balanced well written document not at all jumping on Covid-19 hysteria band wagon.
In the first place you must learn a new acronym PIM-TS(PIMS-TS stands for p aediatric i nflammatory m ultisystem s yndrome t emporally related to S ars-CoV-2). It is Kawasaki like reaction after infection but has several things not in Kawasaki disease i.e. not having permanently coronary damage and almost always full recovery.
The first thing is to blame Covid-19 infection as PIMS-TS occurs after the infection. As I think only half had pos PCR ,they quickly started to discount the negative test as it was taken two weeks after the actual infection etc.
” It seems to be that most children who have Covid-19 show very few symptoms. A very small proportion go on to develop PIMS-TS about 10 days – 3 weeks later. This can be serious – and is different from Kawasaki Disease in its presentation, and although can be associated with heart inflammation, does not appear to target the coronary arteries the way Kawasaki Disease does.”
“As at 15 May 2020, there have only been c.250 reported cases of PIMS in the whole of Europe , that’s about 3 cases for every **million** children.”
“Studies so far suggest that some children affected by PIMS-TS have (or have had) Covid-19 – whilst some children have PIMS-TS with no evidence Covid-19 infection. One problem is that tests to detect infection with Covid-19 are currently not 100% accurate – so some children with PIMS-TS may truly have had infection with Covid-19, but this was not detected by nose swab (RT-PCR) or blood antibody test. The European Centre for Disease Control notes that “To date, the association between SARS-CoV-2 infection [Covid-19] and this new clinical entity of multisystem inflammation is not yet established, although it appears plausible.”

But perhaps the best quote from the site is this

“public health expert Dr Sunil Bhopal wrote “Across the USA, England, Italy, Germany, Spain, France and Korea there were 43 deaths from COVID-19 in 0-19 year olds (total population 135,691,226) in the three months to 12 May 2020. In this period, in these countries, we estimated… [from] data that we would expect more than 36,000 deaths from all causes in this age group, including over 3,000 from unintentional injury and 891 from lower respiratory tract infection including influenza.
Covid-19, by this measure, was responsible for an estimated 0.117% of deaths of 0-19 year old in these three months.” (13)
“In other words, children in these countries, including England, are 20 times more likely to die from flu and respiratory illness than Covid-19. They are also about 70 times more likely to die from unintentional injury than from Covid-19.”

20203 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to swedenborg, 2, #1205 of 1297 🔗

Great information thanks especially the higher number of lower respiratory tract infections incl flu as opposed to the much lower number of Covid deaths for children. Just saw an article in the paper of a hospitalised baby that survived Covid that had an undiagnosed heart problem.

20219 Bella Donna, replying to Bella Donna, 7, #1206 of 1297 🔗
20243 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Bella Donna, #1207 of 1297 🔗

Probably see an Orange Vest movement emerge.

20223 Cbird, #1208 of 1297 🔗

Don’t know if anyone else has posted this, but please listen if you need reassuring that there are some other sane people out there. Here are four. Toby gets a mention at the end too:

‘Lockdown is not the “safe” option’ https://www.spiked-online.com/video/lockdown-is-not-the-safe-option/#.XtehHWzQ9Eg.whatsapp

20224 ScuzzaMan, replying to ScuzzaMan, 2, #1209 of 1297 🔗

“How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men? Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice – meaning respectively to ‘ Resist the Beginnings ‘ and ‘ Consider the end .’ But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certainly and how is this to be done, by ordinary men or even by extraordinary men? Things might have (turned out well). And everyone counts on that might .”

10 points for the reader who can tell me where this quote is from. Hint: it’s in a book. I will accept the title as a winning entry.

He’s wrong of course. If we have principles that we believe in because we’ve proven them over centuries then we don’t need to foresee anything at all. We only need to recognise that the principle currently being enacted (or proposed) is contrary to ours, and then resist that enactment. If the principles that we have developed in the West, for living together in relative harmony while having divergent opinions on other matters, have any meaning at all it is clear that opposing them is NEVER going to end well. It is NEVER going to turn out well for our way of life. There is no “ might ” involved at all – such an end is absolutely excluded.

Remember these words, for they are ancient wisdom:

Principiis obsta!

Finem respice!

20238 ▶▶ Mark, replying to ScuzzaMan, 1, #1210 of 1297 🔗

I believe I recommended that same book to someone on here a week or two back. If so, it’s one of the best (most informative) books I’ve read on the events of the 1920s-40s in Germany, and I’ve read a lot on that topic.

20241 ▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to ScuzzaMan, #1211 of 1297 🔗

I want to say William Shirer, but I don’t think it is.

20245 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Winston Smith, 2, #1212 of 1297 🔗

Milton Meyer (Mayer?) I think. They thought they were free.

Excellent book.

20282 ▶▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Mark, 1, #1213 of 1297 🔗

Ah, thanks Mark, I’ll get a copy and add to my reading stack.

I think everybody should read Shirer’s Rise and Fall of the Third Reich as required reading a civic duty. Just saying.

20348 ▶▶▶▶ ScuzzaMan, replying to Mark, #1214 of 1297 🔗

A very pertinent book for our times, and the past once again serves as prologue. We thought we were free, too, eh?

20251 ▶▶ Felice, replying to ScuzzaMan, 1, #1215 of 1297 🔗

I put the quote into google, which immediately gave me google book’s version of They thought they were free. On reading the next paragraph, there was the famous quote from Pastor Niëmoller, about first they attacked the communists etc. The following paragraph could basically be described as the ‘boiling a lobster’ principal, with each step only incrementally worse than the last, until it is too late.
Absolutely chilling.

Someone here complained that commentators only talk about using the name Nazi as an insult, and why not Stalin or Pol Pot. This book makes it obvious: Germany was a democracy, Russia and Cambodia were not.

20237 Julian, 3, #1216 of 1297 🔗

Some very good points here made by all sides. The virus issue is so huge I tend to think we should try to put all other differences aside as far as possible, for now.

But equally I think/hope we all believe in freedom of speech here, so if people want to express strong views on matters they believe are very closely related to the virus overreaction disaster then I’m sure we can cope, but I do think we should try to remain as broad a church as possible, within reason.

I don’t know much about Toby Young, though what I have seen recently from him seems sensible to me. The main thing he is hosting this forum, providing a focal point and in general writing persuasively in mainstream media about what is happening. That’s enough for me, for now.

BLM is something of a minefield. It has knocked coronavirus off the BBC news headlines briefly. You could think that’s a good thing as in some ways we need to get the virus off the news, but it’s bad in my view in that it just distracts from getting the lockdown and social distancing catastrophe properly debated.

I like Mark’s point about being a moderate in an extreme world.

20244 Tenchy, replying to Tenchy, 8, #1217 of 1297 🔗

I notice that our glorious Home Secretary has stated that the quarantine measures are “temporary requirements”. What, as opposed to permanent requirements. It beggars belief that people of her calibre are running the country. And the “plan” will only apply to England, she says. LOL!

20270 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Tenchy, 3, #1218 of 1297 🔗

How on earth does it only apply to England? Presumably if we fly in to Edinburgh, we don’t have to quarantine? Or if we fly into Birmingham but give a Scottish address, we also don’t have to quarantine? This is all so incredibly stupid. I have no idea where this Patel woman is coming from in her ideas. I’ve ranted about this in the survey, all the ridiculous micromanaging by Patel and Hancock.

20290 ▶▶▶ guy153, replying to CarrieAH, 3, #1219 of 1297 🔗

I think you can also fly to England via Dublin. The quarantine is unenforceable anyway. Basically you just give them an address and say you will be there and that’s the end of it.

20313 ▶▶▶ Bella, replying to CarrieAH, #1220 of 1297 🔗

That’s the answer to your own question: they are so incredibly stupid.

20249 PMCL, replying to PMCL, 1, #1221 of 1297 🔗

Is there any chance that you could sell masks in your new shop? – featuring, proudly, the masked bulldog of course.

20281 ▶▶ Rob Tyson, replying to PMCL, 2, #1222 of 1297 🔗

Not sure how many buyers you’d get 🙂

20288 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to PMCL, 5, #1223 of 1297 🔗

Absolutely not. Masks should never be worn.

20298 ▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Victoria, 2, #1224 of 1297 🔗

unless you’re a; heathcare worker, highwayman, superhero, supervillain, terrorist or a attending a swingers party and you don’t want to be recognised.

20292 ▶▶ Snake Oil Pussy, replying to PMCL, #1225 of 1297 🔗

I would buy a mask depicting someone else’s facial features (Dominic Cummings perhaps). It would work best against facial recognition software.

20255 Nic, replying to Nic, 11, #1226 of 1297 🔗

IAM now starting to worry that there is no way out of this I think up until a week ago the government were putting all there eggs in 1 basket and convinced themselves a vaccine would get us back to normal in september
They have not mentioned a vaccine recently as even they realise that a vaccine will not be around for years if ever
The obvious option is that we shield the elderly and the vulnerable and the rest of us get on with things and that way we can reach herd immunity.
I run a cafe iv not learnt a penny for 3 months I have some money put by and can survive till october then?

The government must change direction and open the economy up ,but I’m really worried they will not and that we are facing an economic crash worse than the great depression
Anybody else feel this way?

Does anybody have an idea how this might all this end?

Would be nice to hear other peoples thoughts on an end game to this.

20261 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Nic, 6, #1227 of 1297 🔗

It is pretty much a certainty that there will be a great depression, with almost the whole world in this. As the ‘government’ said, we are all in this together. As for how it will all end, well I suspect the George Floyd riots will seem like a picnic.

20263 ▶▶▶ Nic, replying to IanE, 4, #1228 of 1297 🔗

MORE demos in london going on at this very moment ,police arent doing a thing ,yet dragged a number of people away at the anti lockdown demo at Hyde park a few weeks ago ,feel their is also lockdown frustration with this one no social distancing thing could kick off big time if it’s a long hot summer we will see

20286 ▶▶▶▶ Victoria, replying to Nic, 1, #1229 of 1297 🔗

Social distancing should not happen so hopefully these people will realise nothing happened to them or that they get a mild flu and therefore a better immune response for future exposure to the virus.

20487 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Victoria, #1230 of 1297 🔗

Why should they get a “mild flu” ??

20369 ▶▶▶▶ Dinger, replying to Nic, #1231 of 1297 🔗

Maybe combine the two “All lives matter”?

20264 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Nic, 17, #1232 of 1297 🔗

I am sorry to head about your cafe, and hope you manage to get back on track.

Possibly the government were hoping for an early vaccine, though they themselves have openly said it might take a year, or years, or may never come.

As to how it ends, my hope is that a combination of factors will get us back to something like normal:

1) We’ll see Europe and other countries that have “closed down” open up, properly, and we’ll see that they will not have a large upsurge in cases requiring hospitalisation. The case for maintaing excessive restrictions and social distancing will be hard to make if we are the only ones doing it.

2) The economic effects will begin to kick in as furlough money tapers off and public opinion will want the government to get us all back to work

3) The unworkable, impractical, unnatural, inhuman nature of indefinite social distancing will start to take its toll on all but the most hardline lockdown advocates.
The key thing is to nudge public opinion as much as possible to give our cowardly leaders the confidence they need to make the decisions they probably know are right.

I’ve been trying to persuade as many people as possible in my own circle that this must stop, while trying to keep at least some of my friends and colleagues from hating me, writing to my MP, etc. It’s not much, but it’s all I can manage.

Good luck, and you are not alone.

20276 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Julian, #1233 of 1297 🔗

haha, I should have read this before I posted my response.

20295 ▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Nobody2020, 1, #1234 of 1297 🔗

Great minds think alike; fools seldom differ 🙂

20280 ▶▶▶ RDawg, replying to Julian, 4, #1235 of 1297 🔗

Yes I agree with this entirely. I suspect that before Christmas, life will be at least 90% back to the old normal for most people. So a v gradual shifting of things over the next six months, particularly as we see virus figures fall and fall and there is no “second wave”.

20296 ▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to RDawg, 1, #1236 of 1297 🔗

I think there’s a chance of that but it is no means certain. The government are enjoying their time in the spotlight. Hopefully as discontent kicks in they will relish it less and stop trying to wreck human life.

If it doesn’t, maybe we’ll be off to a saner country. Any suggestions?

20299 ▶▶▶▶▶ RDawg, replying to Julian, #1237 of 1297 🔗


20307 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to RDawg, 2, #1238 of 1297 🔗

It would not have been top of my list before this business started, but they’ve got my attention now…

Maybe Wyoming. Not many people there.

Be lovely if we could divide up world territory between people who want to live with the “new normal” and those who prefer actual normal.

20312 ▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to RDawg, 2, #1239 of 1297 🔗

Christmas? I want to enjoy the summer!!

20273 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Nic, 7, #1240 of 1297 🔗

As countries have started opening up I think we will see a rapid shift to get things back to normal over the coming weeks. That’s assuming the virus does not start spreading rapidly again which, based on what we know, is probably unlikely.

Some of the countries that have already begun have stated they will be accelerating the removal of most restrictions. As the evidence comes in from other countries it will become harder and harder for our government to justify maintaining the restrictions.

20491 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Nobody2020, #1241 of 1297 🔗

But our have just put extra brakes on and told us they won’t review for 4 weeks.

20300 ▶▶ AidanR, replying to Nic, 3, #1242 of 1297 🔗

I’ve reached the point of praying for a meteor strike, or all out thermonuclear war.

90% of humanity is a waste of elements.

20373 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to AidanR, 1, #1243 of 1297 🔗

There is much in what you say – though I would have no objection to a targetted strike on Parliament.

20279 Nobody2020, replying to Nobody2020, 12, #1244 of 1297 🔗


Tegnell: “the basic strategy has worked well. I do not see what we would have done completely differently … Based on the knowledge we had then, we feel we made the appropriate decisions”

But the headline is: “We should have done more, admits architect of Sweden’s Covid-19 strategy”

20284 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Nobody2020, 4, #1245 of 1297 🔗

Thanks for clarifying, it happens so often that the content of an article contradicts the sensational headline.

20287 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Nobody2020, 8, #1246 of 1297 🔗

Spin. Always spin. Topline is always their agenda. Quotes are soundbites that fits that agenda. Truth is there, but only in the third paragraph onward – because nobody reads that far.

Lies of omission and elision.

20311 ▶▶ FiFiTrixabelle, replying to Nobody2020, 2, #1247 of 1297 🔗

Thanks for this. I made the mistake of reading the BBC article covering this story….no guesses as to the spin they put on it too!! Don’t know why I did that, it’s like I’m trying to torture myself.

20372 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to FiFiTrixabelle, #1248 of 1297 🔗

A wasted effort, our government is in charge of that!

20289 Nobody2020, replying to Nobody2020, 9, #1249 of 1297 🔗

Hang on to your tin foil hats folks, it’s gonna be a bumpy ride:


“The World Health Organisation and a number of national governments have changed their Covid-19 policies and treatments on the basis of flawed data from a little-known US healthcare analytics company, also calling into question the integrity of key studies published in some of the world’s most prestigious medical journals.”

20294 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Nobody2020, 3, #1250 of 1297 🔗

wow guardian doing some decent work for once

20343 ▶▶ ScuzzaMan, replying to Nobody2020, 1, #1251 of 1297 🔗

Suddenly it is respectable to challenge the science when the WHO does it?

Why didn’t they say or do anything years ago, when these words were published?

Marcia Angell , former editor of The New England Journal of Medicine , in the NY Review of Books, January 15, 2009, “ Drug Companies & Doctors: A Story of Corruption ”:

“It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines. I take no pleasure in this conclusion, which I reached slowly and reluctantly over my two decades as an editor of The New England Journal of Medicine .”

20301 hotrod, replying to hotrod, 2, #1252 of 1297 🔗

Amy from Brighton…..

Great question…..

Did they know that question was coming?

Valence positive (ish), Whitty negative.

Great work Amy.

20305 ▶▶ Julian, replying to hotrod, #1253 of 1297 🔗

What was the question?

20308 ▶▶▶ hotrod, replying to Julian, 7, #1254 of 1297 🔗

Spain has not seen any resurgence or second spike despite lifting their restrictions. Why?

20321 ▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to hotrod, 5, #1255 of 1297 🔗

Thanks. Nice one Amy.

“The first question is from Amy from Brighton, who asks what the UK can learn from Spain, which recently saw days without any deaths and as yet has not seen a resurgence – despite easing restrictions.
Vallance says the news from Spain is encouraging but we “are not out of this yet” and there have been fresh spikes in Germany and South Korea.
The PM claims the virus is a “kinetic force” and there is the risk of a “second pulse” and that is why the UK must remain vigilant.
Whitty points out that a second wave is “common” in most new diseases.”

What data is that man looking at from Germany and South Korea? Graphs I have seen are pretty flat in every respect in those countries. I don’t like to call a man a liar, but hard to see how he is not misrepresenting the truth, irresponsibly.

I guess “we’re not out of this yet” is a scientific term that I am too stupid to understand. I’m sure he knows what he is talking about.

The PM probably means the virus has kinetic energy. I don’t think science is his strong point.

A second wave is common in most new diseases. Is it? Don’t most never go away, like flu?

20330 ▶▶▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Julian, 3, #1256 of 1297 🔗

I think evidence comes from Scarey Movie type horror films. The ones where you think the boogie man is dead but comes back one last time just when you think it’s safe.

20322 ▶▶ Anthony, replying to hotrod, 1, #1257 of 1297 🔗

Still found all of their replies as infuriating as normal. I think everyone on who visits this site should submit a question to see if we can get some more sense into these press conferences.


20552 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Anthony, #1258 of 1297 🔗

How about “Is the entire UK Cabinet being controlled via remotely detonatable subcutaneous explosive devices ?” ?

20302 Dave #KBF, 2, #1259 of 1297 🔗

Something a little light hearted.


20306 Victoria, replying to Victoria, 2, #1260 of 1297 🔗

Got this from the Martin Lewis in the Money Savings Expert newsletter today.

“Have YOUR say on how post-lockdown UK society will look – join the People’s Commission. Life has changed forever. The way we work, support each other, travel, shop, spend, and also the value we put on the roles people play in society. The past few months have been challenging for our country on every level, but it is time to try and find opportunity from adversity.
Cross-party think tank Demos has launched its “People’s Commission”. Its aim is to have 1 million people feed in to what life should be like when we return to normal. Have your say, join the People’s Commission https://renewnormal.co.uk

(Martin Lewis) agreed to be one of 11 commissioners, alongside the likes of former education secretary Nicky Morgan, trade union Prospect’s general secretary Mike Clancy and UK Youth chief executive Ndidi Okezie.”

20309 ▶▶ Bella, replying to Victoria, 4, #1261 of 1297 🔗

If you go along with this you buy into their narrative of oppression. This is everything LS should be against. I’ve just completed it with as much abuse as possible.

20310 ▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Bella, #1262 of 1297 🔗

Me too

20316 ▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Winston Smith, 8, #1263 of 1297 🔗

Forward to all your lockdown sceptic anti-new normal friends

Life has changed forever” Excuse my French but what a crock of shit. How dare they? I don’t believe God, but He ought to smite them, at least a bit, for casually saying such a wicked thing that is against nature.

20334 ▶▶ Stephen McMurray, replying to Victoria, 4, #1264 of 1297 🔗

This is exactly what has been planned in the post-democratic era. It looks great on the outside, the citizens having a say, but the commissioners will not be me or you, it will be those people who would never get elected by normal means and so they will steer the agenda. They, will of course, promote the ideas of those they agree with and ignore those they do not agree with and I guarantee it will be a radical left agenda,

The next thing that will be proposed is a technocracy – where unelected scientists, intellectuals and ‘experts’ will be put into positions of power
without being democratically elected. They will say ‘but these people know more than the politicians, they are experts in their field, they are independent’ . I think we’ve seen how independent these big pharma scientists are and how accurate the experts were during the covid debacle and , once they have been appointed, they can’t be voted out and every action the elite take will be covered by cries of ‘we are only doing what the experts said’. This is just marxism – an attempt to destroy the structures of the UK whilst pretending it’s what the people want and then they will be infiltrating and creating the new structures to give them ultimate control. Dangerous stuff and it needs to be rejected.

I already see what ploy they are going to use next to keep us in our cages. Apparently more people of ethnic minorities die of covid than white people. I have no idea if this is true or not but I have heard it before. Now though I see it mentioned over and over again. I am assuming they are using the George Floyd tragedy to introduce it into the narrative at this time so they can say’ anybody that wants to end the lockdown is a racist because they obviously want to kill black people’. This tactic has already been used by the lunatic left in the USA.

20357 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to Victoria, #1266 of 1297 🔗

We’re f*****

20543 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Lms23, #1267 of 1297 🔗

Only if we think we are.

20395 ▶▶ BTLnewbie, replying to Victoria, 1, #1268 of 1297 🔗

In my view, we should all oomplete the Demos survey to give some balance to those many who are accepting the inevitability of ‘a new normal’.
Thank God for the rain today – at least the weather is back to the old normal – and that’s a good start.
The dam is starting to burst, (though Patel has left herself on a rock shelf without a ladder to climb down). We’ll be back to normal by July, though many (indeed most) will have been psychologically scarred by the experience.

20424 ▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to BTLnewbie, 1, #1269 of 1297 🔗

I really hope you are right that we will be back to the proper old normal by mid Summer. Certainly I feel scarred and bruised emotionally, in tears one minute, hysterically laughing at the absurdity of it all the next. It’s exhausting.

20323 Awkward Git, replying to Awkward Git, 9, #1270 of 1297 🔗

Just had a chat with delivery driver who was sort of wearing a mask.

He said company insists they wear one at all times so went through the explanations of why this was not a good idea, many studies including WHO says not to, tend top in oxygen saturation, containing and reaching in increasing volumes of germs etc, his low risk and did he agree to the risk assessment for driving in a mask.

Standard answer “what risk assessment?” so explained the legalities about risk assessments and so on.

Told him off anything happens with him wearing a mask – fainting, dizziness that cause an accident or a bad respiratory illness then he’s to sue the arse off the company as they are liable as they made him wear the mask. Refer to the lack of agreement with the risk assessment as well.

He went away happy and would pass on all this to the other drivers.

Ha haha and screw ’em.

20371 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Awkward Git, 2, #1271 of 1297 🔗

Of course it is really Boris and co who should be screwed (rusty pokers spring to mind for some reason).

20324 karate56, replying to karate56, 12, #1272 of 1297 🔗

Just watched the daily briefing, why I don’t know. In short, Whitty and Vallance have just confirmed lockdown, or at least social distancing through the winter. They also lied on live TV saying Germany and South korea have had spikes when they clearly haven’t. We’re fucked

20332 ▶▶ Julian, replying to karate56, 7, #1273 of 1297 🔗

The bit about the spikes is a bloody disgrace

20352 ▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to Julian, 5, #1274 of 1297 🔗

God, it makes my blood boil. Look at the graphs for both countries on Worldometers, they are basically flat.

20355 ▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Julian, 1, #1275 of 1297 🔗

He was making it up as he was going along. He also said the R number was around 1 – that is almost certainly not the case, and nor does it matter anyway. I think he knew what he was doing, although my husband has just said that he thought he looked rattled. Perhaps the advisers are in denial, or are just going along with the flow from a government seemingly intent to hasten our collapse into oblivion.

20350 ▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to karate56, 4, #1276 of 1297 🔗

What I find breathtaking is that they seem to be content, as doctors and fathers, to have the lives of a whole generation of young people blighted in one way or another, by promoting strategies that they surely know by now (there is enough scientific and medical evidence coming in from various studies) have no merit. Vallance completely contradicted himself in responding to the timing of quarantine measures. The response to Amy from Brighton’s question was wholly inadequate. Boris was his usual bluster. What does he think should happen if the weather is ‘normal’ for the next month – we just stay in total lockdown. Having also watched some of Jeremy Hunt’s questioning of Dido Harding, another unelected adviser of questionable pedigree, I despair.

20353 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 4, #1277 of 1297 🔗

Dido Harding … wasn’t she in charge of Talk Talk when they had that data hack?

20359 ▶▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to kh1485, 1, #1278 of 1297 🔗

Yes, and read what CityAm wrote about her at the time (you can get a good idea from her Wiki page).

20368 ▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Tyneside Tigress, #1279 of 1297 🔗

And er … she’s in charge of Test and Trace? Perhaps I am missing something here … (god, I wish I had been crap at my job, it’s clearly the way to get on!).

20354 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to karate56, 6, #1280 of 1297 🔗

I certainly won’t be antisocial distancing throughout winter. That’s if I can find any friends left who haven’t given in to this appalling new abnormal.

20370 ▶▶▶ Nic, replying to CarrieAH, #1281 of 1297 🔗

Agree with you I wont be either .I’m having a bad day today when I hear things like this It makes me feel physically sick

20356 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to karate56, 8, #1282 of 1297 🔗

Whitty and Vallance clearly don’t know that CV19 has gone from the population and anti-social distancing is completely unnecessary as it’s been defeated by Black Lives Matter.
So, if you and all your pals want to get together and anyone objects, just tell them you’re holding a BLM protest of support in memory of George Floyd.
Or am I being cynical?

20363 ▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Lms23, 1, #1283 of 1297 🔗

Indeed. You can also say you are part of a Traveller wake, as the police admitted some time ago, it was in the wider public interest to not intervene to break it up (Manchester, I think, about 6 weeks ago). Then there is always the Rosie Duffield defence for – em – smaller groupings!

20366 ▶▶▶ Nic, replying to Lms23, 2, #1284 of 1297 🔗

Notice that Boris didnt criticise the demo but underlined that if it was wet this weekend under no circumstances should we meet Inside
God I’m starting to despise this buffoon
And if this nonsense continues into the winter I will quite happily demonstrate against it and quite happily be arrested for my anti new normal beliefs!

20588 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to karate56, #1285 of 1297 🔗

..because if you read the SAGE notes, the plan is to compulsorily vaccinate the entire UK population for the flu this winter. Now that they know where everyone will be at night, they can come to people’s houses and do the jabs there..

20327 Nobody2020, 5, #1286 of 1297 🔗


“The latest data shows that up until 31 May there was a total of 3,911 fatalities where coronavirus is mentioned on the death certificate”

Half the population of Sweden and nearly as many deaths. I know they’ll likely use this as an excuse to keep us indoors so it’s hard to be overly critical.

However, it does highlight the futility of lockdown when compared to Sweden. Notice also the use of “mentioned on the death certificate” as a subtle way to suggest not all deaths should be counted as such.

20340 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 2, #1287 of 1297 🔗


This is an interview with Prof John Nicholls University of Hong Kong on the 6th Feb. We read this with benefit of hindsight but remarkable how correct his assessment has been. He might have got wrong about super spreader in this pandemic and possibility of nosocomial infection in hospitals and too optimistic about the spread world-wide outside Wuhan in the final phrase but he has got many things correct in the beginning of Feb.

20349 ▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to swedenborg, #1288 of 1297 🔗

He was very accurate in so many ways, but he could not know 06 Feb that the virus could have switched to humans as early as mid September 2019. Cambridge University only started work in mid February to establish the possibility of a much earlier covid 19 crossover date.

20351 Nobody2020, 5, #1289 of 1297 🔗

Any chance we can get the highlighting of new posts back? I liked being able to scroll down and quickly see the new posts in bright yellow.

20360 Sarigan, replying to Sarigan, 7, #1290 of 1297 🔗

The quarantine guidelines that have just sealed the fate of thousands of travel and hospitality jobs:


it’s ok though as she insisted: “These measures are informed by science, backed by the public and will keep us safe.”

Fuck off, fuck off again and then fuck off some more.

20365 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Sarigan, 8, #1291 of 1297 🔗

Just how have we ended up with such an appalling government? My head spins when I try to understand what they think they are doing to us!

20375 ▶▶ Sarigan, replying to Sarigan, 6, #1292 of 1297 🔗

Apologies for the language but I am so angry. They have systematically destroyed my livelihood. I did not get the SME grant due to being in shared office space and not being the business rates account holder. A new discretionary grant went live today but they want 16 pages of evidence that the business has suffered, has ongoing costs etc, etc and they have said my application is unlikely to be successful. They base it on figures from March to end May vs. previous year and on paper mine don’t look too bad as we get paid 2 months after booking so March and April income is based on Jan and Feb sales which are generally the busiest months. It does not account for the that those bookings are now cancelled and we have to hand the money back. In terms of new bookings between March and May we are 98.5% down.

The initial grant required no questions and was purely based on business rates. Also the new grant has been reduced to £5K for micro businesses and £10K for small businesses. All assessed on a scoring matrix.

  • We appreciate that the application for the Discretionary Fund is complex and requires substantial information, however, we believe this is necessary in order for us to verify and assess all applications without the need to request supplementary information at a later date (which may create a large administrative burden and delay eventual payments to successful applicants).

  • Loss of income is just one component that is assessed for the scoring matrix in combination with other factors. I would advise that you submit accurate income statements for both periods to support the income loss reported against the same period in 2019. In terms of supplementary evidence I don’t believe we’ll be able to accept this for individual applications, however I am happy to question this further if you are able to give me an idea of the type of documentation you wanted to submit.

I have run a small independent travel business for 18 years, paid VAT, tax, NIC, PAYE, have worked non stop since this began, at a loss, to help my clients get their money back only to be shafted by a spineless, worthless and useless government.

Costa Rica here we come.

20417 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Sarigan, 3, #1294 of 1297 🔗

It is utterly appalling. This really is the final straw for me. I was relying on getting back to Greece to see my family in the next month, it was all I had to look forward to, and they’ve taken that from me as well. I doubt I will ever see one family member now as they have a terminal illness. I hate, loathe and detest this government and will never forgive them for what they’ve done to this country.

20530 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to CarrieAH, #1295 of 1297 🔗

Not possible to book flights from/to Dublin, combined with a short hop over the Irish Sea ?

20482 deborah kaloudi, 5, #1296 of 1297 🔗

Lockdown sceptics has kept me sane..I knew I was not alone in this scam of a lifetime. How refreshing to hear a doctor speak the truth …..People have gone mad…They are aggressive if you go against the narrative and people I thought were intelligent seem to have lost all critical logical brainpower. Quite frankly it’s terrifying to see how easily the Brits fell for this media circus hook line and sinker…and now won’t come out from under their beds..all logic buried there with them. However, I have learnt two things..or rather reinforced what I already knew. First the majority of humans have been dumbed down beyond the point of return. Secondly, the vaccination industry (that’s what it is) is horrific. I thought I knew a lot about big pharma but my investigations over the past two months and the revelations by medical practitioners have shocked. It’s time for us to stand up against this. People need to wake up before its way too late!

20685 James, 2, #1297 of 1297 🔗

Is this reminding anyone of -“ Invasion of the Body Snatchers”? Like you know deep inside that however clever you are and how much you try to stay sceptical – one day you are going to wake up and believe the new normal is absolutely fine.


191 users made 1,297 comments today.

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35AN other lockdown sceptic35
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