Last updated2020-06-06T01:34:18



22042 Kevin Corbett, replying to Kevin Corbett, 78, #1 of 1704 🔗

This must be one of the best editions of Lockdown Sceptics yet. Well done to you Toby -you’re doing a fantastic job. So many depend on this daily dose of sanity now to get them through this madness.

22115 ▶▶ Moomin, replying to Kevin Corbett, 25, #2 of 1704 🔗

Agreed! I’d have gone mad without this.

23433 ▶▶▶ Nerina Villa, replying to Moomin, #3 of 1704 🔗

Me too, life saver.

23926 ▶▶ Chas, replying to Kevin Corbett, #4 of 1704 🔗

I do think we need Lockdown Sceptics to continue in a broader political sense. The opinions here mirror what I’m feeling and I don’t feel that there is anyone in Westminster who reflects my opinions as well as you do.

22043 annie, 19, #5 of 1704 🔗

Hey, just as I meant, I’m first to comment!

Welcome back Toby, we’ve missed you.
Meanwhile I’ve been enjoying Lord Gumption’s excoriating interview with the BBC twat.
In fact I enjoyed it so much that a scene took place in my mind that iwes somewhat to Ruddigore:

Mad Annie: Master, when I think of all you have done for me I fall at your feet, I embrace your ankles, I hug your knees. (Doing so.)
Lord G. Hush. This is not well. This is calculated to provoke trolling. Be composed, I beg.
Mad Annie: I sometimes think that if we could hit upon some word to use whenever I am about to relapse, some word that teems with hidden meaning, it might recall me to my saner self. For after all, I am only Mad Annie! He, he, he!
Lord G. (gravely) Then let the word be ‘Basingstoke’. (Mad Annie goes on cackling.)
Lord G. Poor child, she wanders. But soft – someone else is posting on our site. Annie, pray recollect yourself – Basingstoke, I beg.
Mad Annie (still more wildly) But I am Welsh! Basingstoke means nothing to me. It must be ‘Llanfair­pwllgwyngyll­gogery­chwyrn­drobwll­llan­tysilio­gogo­goch’.
Lord G. (painstakingly) Very well. Mad Annie, if you don’t Llanfair­pwllgwyngyll­gogery­chwyrn­drobwll­llan­tysilio­gogo­goch immediately, I shall be very angry.
Mad Annie (suddenly very calm and demure) Llanfair­pwllgwyngyll­gogery­chwyrn­drobwll­llan­tysilio­gogo­goch it is.
Lord G. Then make it so.

Absolutely no disrespect to Lord G. intended, if course.

22047 CarrieAH, replying to CarrieAH, 128, #6 of 1704 🔗

Toby – just want to say the I’m sure we all absolutely understand that you can’t keep posting new articles every day now. I’m amazed you’ve been able to keep doing that for so long. But also to say THANK YOU for this website as it has been a real port in a huge storm for me and many others. It’s kept me sane (ish!) knowing that there are other folk who aren’t indoctrinated to the dreadful new normal and it’s kept me going. So thank you.

22093 ▶▶ TJN, replying to CarrieAH, 47, #7 of 1704 🔗

Yes, Toby’s done a wonderful job, and I hope he continues to do so – it’s difficult to think of anything in public life that’s more important right now.

Apparently he writes it all in the shed at the bottom of his garden, rarely stepping out into the sunlight. In a few decades’ time someone will put one of those plaques on the decaying timbers, saying something along the lines of: ‘From this humble shed, in 2020, Toby Young, ran his anti-lockdown website, and kept the flames of liberty and free-thinking alive when all seemed lost.’

People will come from around the world to visit, as a sort of pilgrimage. Appeals will be set up to maintain and to restore the hallowed structure to its former glory – sort of mini Chartwell, as it were. Books containing each day’s postings will be on sale outside, and probably there’ll be a cafe selling teas and coffees in replica Lockdown Sceptics mugs.

And people will like to think that had they been lockdown, back in 2020, they too would have had the wit and gumption to see through the fraud for what it was, and that they too would have made their stand. The vast majority wouldn’t, of course: they would have followed the herd, believed what they were told to believe, and taken the easy way out.

22177 ▶▶▶ crimsonpirate, replying to TJN, 18, #8 of 1704 🔗

at the very least he should get a knighthood

22263 ▶▶▶▶ TJN, replying to crimsonpirate, 9, #9 of 1704 🔗

Yep, ‘Arise Sir Toby!’ I’ll go along with that.

After all, Ferguson got an OBE for his 2001 Foot and Mouth work.

22335 ▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to TJN, 12, #10 of 1704 🔗

Would he want one, bearing in mind your second point? We need a new honours system that recognises true bravery and courage.

22381 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Geoff Townley, replying to kh1485, 9, #11 of 1704 🔗

Toby is also a part of the Free Speech organisation, can I recommend that those liking this lockdown chat also support that as well.

23779 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to Geoff Townley, #12 of 1704 🔗

I think it’s called the Free Speech Union. (Did you used to be a Conservative voter, Geoff?)


22901 ▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to TJN, 1, #13 of 1704 🔗

Offal of the British Emoire?

23774 ▶▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to TJN, 2, #14 of 1704 🔗

Personally, I think Ferguson should get a BSE.

23929 ▶▶▶▶▶ Chas, replying to TJN, #15 of 1704 🔗

Don’t even think of comparing Toby to that w@nker Ferguson.

22737 ▶▶▶ James Leary #KBF, replying to TJN, 1, #16 of 1704 🔗

There are Nissan huts on long closed bomber airfields all across Lincolnshire with similar markings. 55,000 Bomber Command crew died trying to preserve democracy then. A remarkably similar number seem to have died during the latest, we hope ultimately unsuccessful attempt to subvert our freedoms. Toby’s plaque will be there. Not posthumously, we hope, unless the Lady Caroline loses it.

23034 ▶▶▶▶ TJN, replying to James Leary #KBF, #17 of 1704 🔗

When you think what those aircrew went through, and compare what we are today …

22145 ▶▶ Scotty87, replying to CarrieAH, 61, #18 of 1704 🔗

Fully agreed, Carrie.

I must admit, I struggled to get to sleep last night. For whatever reason, I was lying in bed, browsing among other things appalling acts of violence perpetrated during the US #BlackLivesMatter protests, UK police being utterly humiliated by baying crowds demanding that they “take a knee,” and young British men and women being heckled by sneering leftists for scrubbing freshly daubed graffiti off a monument.

Come July I will be a young father to three young children, and for the first time in my parenthood journey I am genuinely paralysed with worry about the sort of world I have brought them into. A world where a pernicious conspiracy theory such as “Black Lives Matter” is not only allowed to exist relatively unopposed, it is promoted relentlessly by a mendacious, deceiving mainstream media, virtue signalling politicians, celebrities and organisations alike.

My children will be brought into a world where they will be made to atone for their whiteness, where they will be expected to bow before race supremacists and their powerful backers, no doubt also subjected to regressive, state-mandated brainwashing in their schools, colleges and universities. A world where the demand for bigotry exceeds the supply, so bigotry must be exaggerated or manufactured in order to give the liberal-left cultists a purpose.

I haven’t even touched on the rank hypocrisy of these people – they were apoplectic at a few 5G conspiracy theorists gathering in Hyde Park a few weeks ago, but now they see nothing wrong with cramming together cheek by jowl in order to promote a narrative even more ridiculous; that two of the most liberal, accepting countries in the Western world (the US and the UK) are actually hotbeds of widespread, institutional racism and actually, protesting against this make-believe shadow of oppression is of far more value than any manifestation of pro-lockdown virtue-signalling.

To return to the original point, I am incredibly grateful to Toby for providing a home for like-minded sceptics to congregate, share ideas and indulge in the occasional cathartic vent at how woeful a state our once Great Britain now finds herself in; led by incompetent charlatans and populated by preening, spoilt brats who kneel at the altar of race-baiters and anarchists.

22160 ▶▶▶ JBW, replying to Scotty87, 11, #19 of 1704 🔗

Scotty – For some unexplainable reason, your comments above struck enough of a chord with me to post one of my extremely infrequent replies/comments. Firstly how much I sympathise that your children are young; mine are in their early 20’s and, in some ways sadly, already very cynical about much of what they now see and hear via today’s bog standard media. Secondly, I was listening to a TalkRadio segment today. I cannot remember the name of the host or the interviewee, but as he pointed out at the abrupt conclusion of the interview, it had taken said Islington based interviewee a mere handful of minutes to manage to repeatedly suggest that the ‘9 months in the job’ Mr D Cummings, of that parish, of pretty much being entirely responsible for the ‘institutional racism’ you mention above. Epic going by a mere hired gun spad. Where the solution lies in countering the hypocrisy, who knows?

22272 ▶▶ Fiat, replying to CarrieAH, 12, #20 of 1704 🔗

A port in a storm, indeed; an oasis in a desert, the voice of reason. Thanks, Toby.

22393 ▶▶▶ James007, replying to Fiat, 14, #21 of 1704 🔗

We will remember people like Toby who spoke out for our freedom and liberties, as our government took them from us, frightening the people into cowering in their homes. We should also remember the people who supported this policy, and the people who said nothing.

23441 ▶▶▶▶ Nerina Villa, replying to James007, #22 of 1704 🔗

I agree. In a sense I don’t even totally mind people who supported lockdown AS LONG AS they would talk about it and debate rationally without recourse to either shaming people that disagree or questioning their motives (the you don’t care about people refrain). Those I will never forgive. Or people who welcomed lockdown then broke it. Great to break it but not if you are forcing it on others.

22882 ▶▶ T D, replying to CarrieAH, 4, #23 of 1704 🔗

I feel exactly the same. It’s saddening how easily people give up their civil liberties. Gone is the English yeoman, enter a timid, risk adverse coward.

22050 RS @ home, replying to RS @ home, 18, #24 of 1704 🔗

HELP! Discussions we are picking today

Fellow critics, some of us contribute on other forums, in an attempt to rebalance the national discussion away from the lockdown believers and over to the critics’ camp. Hopefully we can make some silent critics feel a bit less lonely. If we all pile in, we can give it a bit more oomph.

Below are some suggestions on where to contribute. Please add your own links, and pile in with comments and upvotes.


  • The most powerful posts are fact-based with links to trusted sources, rather than mere conjecture.
  • Let’s point out the absence of facts and other flaws in the ‘opponents’ posts.
  • Stay focused and avoid opening up rabbit-holes, i.e. avoid bringing in other topics such as Trump.

Anyone – please re-post this discussion-starter tomorrow.

22052 ▶▶ RS @ home, replying to RS @ home, #25 of 1704 🔗

I remarked that this headline is negative, and pointed out lack of critical thinking applied to the ONS data:

22053 ▶▶ RS @ home, replying to RS @ home, 1, #26 of 1704 🔗

I put several posts in this discussion “Britain’s quarantine plan for travellers is too little too late”:
Many people with hindsight are saying we should have closed borders early, but at the time many found it ‘racist’. The comments have already closed, it seems…

22101 ▶▶▶ John P, replying to RS @ home, 2, #27 of 1704 🔗

The Guardian? Ah, now why does this not surprise me … ?

22599 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to RS @ home, #28 of 1704 🔗

it fo mention the minds. (Those that have them.)

22095 ▶▶ RS @ home, replying to RS @ home, -1, #29 of 1704 🔗

Another doomy-gloomy headline that I responded to: “Virus transmission starting to rise in England, scientists warn” https://www.ft.com/content/e2ca0913-121f-497d-b915-712e9336e45a?commentID=7424ca1e-a003-4fd7-92dc-ca84a90adc2a

22629 ▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to RS @ home, #30 of 1704 🔗

unfortunately behind a paywall.

22055 Sarigan, 19, #31 of 1704 🔗

Our new home?


Also I would like to add a huge thank you Toby. Completely understand why the updates are not going to be daily and shall continue to look forward to future news.

22056 Mike Collins, 17, #32 of 1704 🔗

The Spanish fiddling the death data is nothing new, I worked for a French multinational who was pressuring us to reduce our UK workplace accident rate to match those in our sister Spanish plants. My colleague and I visited the main plant and I’d asked the manager to give us a presentation on how they’d achieved the (miraculous) reduction in accidents so quickly. To cut a long story short they’d made a decision to categorise accidents as those where the employee was to ‘blame’ and those where the company was to blame. You won’t be surprised that they’d blamed the employee for every accident which in their mind didn’t count. When I mentioned it to our French ‘tormentor’ he shrugged his shoulders and as good as said that the data could be interpreted many ways. The UK is not comparing apples-v-apples, any comparison is meaningless.

22057 Simon Dutton, 5, #33 of 1704 🔗

New government guidelines for our safety:


22062 Gracie Knoll, replying to Gracie Knoll, 69, #34 of 1704 🔗

Let me quote from your reader’s letter:

“How long before the Government realises that there is absolutely no way that the lockdown can continue when there are no longer any people dying of COVID-19?”


Let us NOT fall into the trap of thinking that the lockdown is about “stopping the virus”.

You can NOT stop a virus unless the whole population is sealed in individual hermetic bubbles for the totality of their lives, with absolutely zero contact with other people!

LET US REMEMBER……the purpose of the lockdown, as declared by Our Great Leaders, was NOT to prevent all Covid deaths (because that’s impossible) but to “FLATTEN THE CURVE” – to slow the spread so that the NHS was not overwhelmed with cases.

IOW the whole point of the lockdown was to ALLOW THE HEALTH SERVICES TO COPE.

Well, the NHS has coped just fine and we now have near-empty Nightingale hospitals, and most other ICUs have spare capacity.


Let’s not repeat some of the widespread nonsense about the lockdown needing to continue in order to “to STOP the virus”. That’s utterly impossible, and is not the reason we were given for the lockdown in the first place!

22074 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Gracie Knoll, 36, #35 of 1704 🔗

This is an excellent point. Remind people that they were sold “flattening the curve”.

I just keep coming back to the same two questions for anyone supporting government policy:
1) How long does this “new normal” continue for?
2) What’s your exit strategy?

23845 ▶▶▶ Jay, replying to Julian, 1, #36 of 1704 🔗

We would normally speak about “getting back to normal” when the normal had been temporarily changed. “New normal” has an ominously permanent ring to it. I refuse to use the term. (Sorry if this point has been made by others – I’m new here – so glad a commenter directed me to this site).

22159 ▶▶ Bella, replying to Gracie Knoll, 13, #37 of 1704 🔗

Because it’s about that boot on the human face – forever.

22831 ▶▶ BJJ, replying to Gracie Knoll, 2, #38 of 1704 🔗

Because the people let it happen.

23442 ▶▶ Nerina Villa, replying to Gracie Knoll, #39 of 1704 🔗

That seems to be forgotten. Well put.

22065 RDawg, replying to RDawg, 46, #40 of 1704 🔗

Just in case you missed it yesterday, immediately following the announcement that “face coverings” are to be made compulsory on public transport from 15th June, I submitted a petition request to the Parliament website. Many of you were very quick to help me reach the initial signatures required. Thank you!

It is currently sitting at the approvals stage:
“5 people have already supported Ryan Karter’s petition.
We need to check it meets the petition standards before we publish it.
Please try again in a few days.“

Fingers crossed this gets approved. If it does I will post it on here the second I am notified.

For me, the face mask is the ultimate symbol of oppression and fear, and I was particularly horrified at this announcement. As a response to Shapps’ new requirements, I have placed an order for my Covid-secure protection outfit which I will wear when I next use the London Underground…

22072 ▶▶ MoH, replying to RDawg, 33, #41 of 1704 🔗

The mask is literally a muzzle. The audacity of the government to humiliate and insult us suggests that they are government in name only

22121 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to MoH, 11, #42 of 1704 🔗

The worrying thing with the masks is that I do believe the government planned this a while back. Mason Mills on Twitter (likely really Cummings under a pseudonym) posted on *3rd April* that ‘mask advice will change’ and when challenged about how long people would be expected to wear them, joked (!) that masks would be a popular Christmas present…

22158 ▶▶ Bella, replying to RDawg, 12, #43 of 1704 🔗

I agree wholeheartedly about ultimate symbol of oppression and fear

22936 ▶▶▶ HopingThereIsAPlan, replying to Bella, 1, #44 of 1704 🔗

I wonder if we can turn that around, one could surely make a mask with some sceptic slogans on it? And the zealots wouldn’t be able to complain without looking even more stupid and hypocritical than they already do. Might help turn the MSM against the zealots if us anti-lockdown sceptics use masks, which are silly and ineffective but nowhere near so bad, intrusive and ineffective as illegal lockdowns, as a protest. They’ll have to recognise we are not pro-virus, we just think that the only legitimate ways of tackling the virus are small subtle ones which don’t intrude on civil liberties. Tomorrow use the mask to throw off lockdown, shortly later throw off the mask.

23303 ▶▶▶▶ Adam, replying to HopingThereIsAPlan, #45 of 1704 🔗

I was also thinking about a mask with a slogan on it if it becomes mandatory in shops. Also considered buying a plague mask and accompanying hat, just to take the mickey, but not sure I’d have the confidence to pull it off.

23443 ▶▶▶▶▶ Nerina Villa, replying to Adam, #46 of 1704 🔗

Me too, but also not sure I’d do it.

23849 ▶▶▶▶▶ Jay, replying to Adam, #47 of 1704 🔗

Someone apparently wore a plague mask, was photographed and published on facebook by a woman complaining that it frightened her child. I believe the wearer was expecting a visit from the boys in blue.*

*Longrider blog

23500 ▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to RDawg, #48 of 1704 🔗

I think it’s back on with 2500+ signatures.


22066 Skippy, 2, #49 of 1704 🔗
  1. do You know that, or did you read it in the BBC Lancet?
22067 paulito, replying to paulito, 23, #50 of 1704 🔗

Great to see you back Toby and thanks again for the huge amount of work you put into this site. Just a few words on the figures in Spain. El Mundo reported today that there are five different figures for total deaths in Spain. Namely: The Spanish Health Ministry, The WHO, EU, The National Institute of Statistics and The Institute de Salud Carlos III in Madrid.A few days ago, the trade association of undertakers in Spain also questioned the government’s figures, as have the authorities in Spain’s autonomous regional governments. Not surprising as the method of counting has changed 8 times. Stinks to high heaven.

22070 ▶▶ annie, replying to paulito, 12, #51 of 1704 🔗

So, needless to say, do our figures.

22083 ▶▶ Old fred, replying to paulito, 1, #52 of 1704 🔗

any Idea of how much variation there is in reported deaths?

22114 ▶▶▶ paulito, replying to Old fred, 1, #53 of 1704 🔗

Hello Fred. The WHO’s figures are around 2,000 higher than the government’s, while the Undertakers Association put the total figures, as of 25th of May, at 43,985, as opposed to 28,109. This latter figure has also been changed and, according to the government, now stands at 27,134.

22110 ▶▶ Athanasius, replying to paulito, 22, #54 of 1704 🔗

Is it just me, or does everyone else fiddle their figures to make the death toll seem lower, so they can claim a great success, while we in the UK fiddle ours so we can make it seem worse and justify more absurd measures?

22266 ▶▶▶ paulito, replying to Athanasius, 2, #55 of 1704 🔗

I suspect that Spain is doing both, exaggerating the numbers when it suits and downplaying them when it doesn’t. One thing to understand about public opinion here is that very few challenge the government propaganda portraying Covid as a uniquely lethal plague. This leads any discussion about figures to the conclusion that the real death toll is really much higher than the government is admitting. The figures from the association of undertakers are very interesting. They claim 43,985, deaths registered as covid, almost 16,000 more than the government. This figure is very close to that of the National Institute of Statistics for total excess deaths – 43,945. If the undertakers are right, why aren’t those 16,000 included in official figures? On the other hand, if they weren’t from Covid, what caused those 16,000 excess deaths. The lockdown itself? It’s clear, that now that restrictions are easing, they are removing deaths from the Covid toll. 28,019 as of the 25th of May, compared to 27,134 yesterday. Almost 1,000 deaths gone in a puff of smoke and despite more being reported by the autonomous governments in the same period.

22507 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to paulito, #56 of 1704 🔗

They might be removing deaths from the toll to quietly do an Italy and revise the deaths down overall ?

Or am I being optimistic?

23445 ▶▶▶ Nerina Villa, replying to Athanasius, #57 of 1704 🔗


22126 ▶▶ jrsm, replying to paulito, 11, #58 of 1704 🔗

One thing I also don’t understand is how in Portugal,which is surrounded by Spain on all sides except the ocean, we only have 1,465 alleged Covid deaths (less than 1/4 per capita). And I don’t believe anyone here is trying to hide corona deaths, if anything the opposite is happening.

22218 ▶▶▶ crimsonpirate, replying to jrsm, 5, #59 of 1704 🔗

That has been argued before: the idea that Portugal has BCG injections whereas Spain doesn’t. Evan Davis brought this up on PM Radio 4 yesterday with an expert who did point out that Covid 19 and TB are quite different but did concede that BCG might offer a protection for reasons currently unknown.

22264 ▶▶▶ paulito, replying to jrsm, #60 of 1704 🔗

That is a very good question.

22071 MoH, 44, #61 of 1704 🔗

Just as we thought we were getting somewhere with the whole corona farce, the Big State started the racial division and an orchestrated insurgency. It wasnt just about rank hypocrisy where favoured political issues are allowed and non favoured issues such as lockdown protests are suppressed, as hypocrisy is a weapon to remind us that policy dictated by fraudulent morality is a one way street where the Big State is never liable to its own policies. Instead we have the Big State introducing more stringent methods such as compulsory muzzles on public transport which is about compliance and humiliation and insane quarantine rules to destroy the tourism and aviation industry. This will get worse as time goes on

No amounts of letter writing to MP’s will change this, no diatribes of reason or compassion, forget about voting as Labour is the same and no amounts of unhappiness will ever make the government change course. When a government does all it can to destroy people’s earning ability so that they cannot put food on the table or to keep a roof over their head, then that is a very hostile policy. When a government does things like this, its usually known as genocide. I am absolutely not suggesting rioting or violence to remedy this as this is what they want. Civil disobedience, never wear the mask, ridicule and exposing the government’s/SAGE corruption by Big Pharma and Agenda 2021/2030, a massive fuck you to their bullshit and most of all keeping sane is the means to winning this

22073 Peter Thompson, replying to Peter Thompson, 36, #62 of 1704 🔗

Folks , we need to talk about corona privelege. Of course this has been obvious from the 15 th of March when Boris and Hancock created the National Covid Service and destroyed the National Health Service. The latter has been effectively closed since then with the admission to hospital limited to emergencies and of course corona .

Working in the medical field you realise that corona trumps ALL other patholgies and a corona survivor is the onlypatient who merits applause from all hospital staff and some pics for the press . There were some areas where the newcomer corona still had a battle on its hands ; one of these being ” mental health ” . However even here, where corona has to deal with well established ” functional ” illnesses like Chronic fatigue syndrome,
ME , ” fibro ” and ” total allergy ” , covid is claiming victory.

Here is Professor Paul Garner of Liverpool in the BMJ recounting his experiences ” people
need to know that this illness can last for weeks, and the long tail is not some “post-viral fatigue syndrome”—it is the disease. People who have a more protracted illness need help to understand and cope with the constantly shifting, bizarre symptoms, and their unpredictable course.”

Interestingly the sufferers of such functional illnesses as ME are made of strong stuff and don’t easily roll over like some cancer patients I know . They make their feelings plain in the comments to the article.


Quite frankly I think Boris should have been honest and said on the 15 th of March ” listen folks you re on your own for the next 6- 9 months because the health service for which you have paid through your taxes is being closed down.

23020 ▶▶ Samantha, replying to Peter Thompson, 5, #63 of 1704 🔗

My son had a video appointment with a hospital nurse she told us that outpatient services will not be up and running for 6 to 24 months. Two f***ing years. How are people without covid going to get healthcare without paying extra for it? It is an absolute scandal what is happening.

23560 ▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to Peter Thompson, #64 of 1704 🔗

Garner’s symptoms sound very like the bout of flu I suffered from in 1991. It took me nearly three weeks to recover.

22075 Mark, replying to Mark, 39, #65 of 1704 🔗

Asking people to socially distance was, at bottom, a form of puritanical virtue-signalling, an opportunity for holier-than-thou elites to boss around the little people. So of course that “scientific advice” has now been trumped by another even bossier, even more self-righteous form of virtue-signalling: anti-racist sermonising .”

Spot on.

I know it makes a lot of the people here uncomfortable,because they are among the majority who have been indoctrinated into the antiracist lies for decades, much as people were indoctrinated (much more quickly) into the coronavirus lies. They think anyone who opposes antiracism must be a nasty racist bigot. Or at least a heartless, uncaring person – see the similarities here? The fact is that the similarities between the coronapanic and BLM are stark and quite profound.

Both based on a lie. Both defended by attacking dissenters as evil, heartless, nasty, selfish people. Both most loudly embraced by those concerned to signal their own moral superiority, or by people who gain status, power and influence, or career advancement out of it. Both requiring symbols of submission, whether wearing masks or kneeling, and the giving of unearned and often undeserved respect to symbolic groups of special people, whether it’s NHS workers doing the jobs they are paid to do, or black people being put on pedestals for facing the trials of everyday life.

And both are disastrous for the nation they infect.

22099 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Mark, 4, #66 of 1704 🔗

It doesn’t make me feel uncomfortable, I just wonder whether as a matter of tactics it’s best to stay on topic.

But the battle against identity politics is almost as important, albeit over a longer arc than the self-inflicted catastrophe we find ourselves in.

22104 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Julian, 14, #67 of 1704 🔗

It is directly on topic at the moment, while demonstrations are going on in flagrant disregard of the hypocrites’ coronapanic. More specifically, so long as Toby mentions it above the line, it’s clearly legitimate for btl comments. In the long run, though, I suspect the problem of antiracism is at least as important and much more deeply embedded.In truth, both are results of the same basic flaws in our societies.

22076 matt, replying to matt, 6, #68 of 1704 🔗

Sunetra Gupta is interviewed on the latest “women with Balls” podcast. Recommend giving it a listen.

22232 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to matt, 7, #69 of 1704 🔗

Again, she lets herself down a bit when she actively claims to disagree with “libertarians” who think that the lockdown is an infringement on their freedom. She “absolutely has no sympathies with that”.

The earlier part of the interview is all about how freedom and liberty allowed her to travel around the free world doing “what interested” her. This liberty malarkey isn’t all bad, then?

As in her earlier Unherd interview it leaves a sour taste. I think on that point she is virtue signalling.

22497 ▶▶▶ Gossamer, replying to Barney McGrew, 8, #70 of 1704 🔗

Yes, I was disappointed by that too. It panders to the popular notion that anyone who dares mention freedom is an uncaring far-right fascist who wants people to die (ah, the irony!) and so she’s deliberately distancing herself from it.

We somehow need to prove that this is an issue which cuts across notions of left/right. But too many people refuse to see past the binary.

23449 ▶▶▶▶ Nerina Villa, replying to Gossamer, 2, #71 of 1704 🔗

It is not a left right issue in reality, but seems to have become one. I have supported Amnesty since I was a teenager, stopped my donation this week on receipt of their magazine. Not one word about our rights to freedom. Apparently all that fighting for human rights and freedom doesn’t extend to this. Disappointed.

22546 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Barney McGrew, 13, #72 of 1704 🔗

See, this is where I think academics need some real world exposure. Some SERIOUS real world exposure.

How can anyone claim locking people in their houses for indefinite stretches of time ISN’T an infringement of liberty?

And how can one be all on board with ‘human rights’ but not on board with liberty as a human right?

Also how can an infinitesmally small increase in one’s risk to oneself and others be an excuse to completely curtail that human right?

There are even some historians who get down with this ‘freedom is a right-wing concept’ garbage, which is just mind-blowing to me. Anyone who tries to politicise liberty in that way is either stupid, naive or a liar.

22077 Ian, replying to Ian, 73, #73 of 1704 🔗

Toby, I fully get why you can’t keep this up everyday, but bloody hell I’m going to miss it. When I’ve finished reading the rest of the news every day, and feel myself tightening up with stress and anger, it helps calm me to know that there are millions of others who feel the same. You do a fantastic job. Thank you.

But I still don’t get why this isn’t cutting through. I’m not sure, sadly, that I share your view that the tide is beginning to turn. I just don’t get it. We were told that it was to protect the NHS, when the NHS was never at capacity (and ventilators only reached 41% capacity); we were told we had to flatten the curve when the peak was over before lockdown; we were told we were following the science when there is no science that supports that the virus is passed between or from children, yet still schools were closed, children were stopped from socialising playing sport and having fun, and now we have the grotesque charade of nursery and young children having to ‘socially distance’ whilst even now most school years are still not back; we were told that together we could beat this virus, but even as numbers plummet we get yet more stupid regulations passed – masks on public transport, the BMA calling for masks in all enclosed places, quarantine – denying families that have been through so much their annual holiday; the Welsh education minister talking about schools reopening, not to celebrate children getting an education, but to prepare them for the ‘new normal’. And all of this without any parliamentary scrutiny, not that I would hold out for that. The country being brought to its knees, children being denied education, clear evidence the the lockdown is already killing more people now than it saves, and more and more evidence that the long term effects will be catastrophic not just here, but in the impoverished developing world, and what political voices shouting for reason? None. What campaigning (mainstream) press calling all of this out? None. I just don’t get it.

22109 ▶▶ Nic, replying to Ian, 20, #74 of 1704 🔗

I dont want anybody to loose there job but this will only change when furlough, I mean the delayed redunduncy scheme ends when millions of people are on universal credit there will be one massive bust up. And all this will all go out the window, I reckon in early november

22138 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Nic, 20, #75 of 1704 🔗

Probably even earlier because employers will be ask to contribute more and many of them can’t afford to do so, very likely we will be seeing more redundancies come July-August.

Mother Nature can also put an end to social distancing and face masks if she decides to inflict on us a rainfall of biblical proportions over the next few months. There’s no way shops and underground stations will be able to enforce queing outside the pouring rain and people won’t bother to eat out or go to events.

23451 ▶▶ Nerina Villa, replying to Ian, #76 of 1704 🔗

Reading your post has hit such a nerve, you summarize the situation so well. How can this be happening?

22078 Mark, replying to Mark, 11, #77 of 1704 🔗

The question is, why did the “independent” fact-checkers fail to spot this bit of fake news when they’ve been so quick to jump on anything purporting to show HCQ is effective? Could it be that they’re not actually independent at all, but Establishment lackeys determined to discredit anything that suggests COVID-19 isn’t the deadly pathogen it’s made out to be by governments around the world, particularly if it emanates from the White House?
The UK Press Gazette announced on Wednesday that it was launching a campaign entitled “Fight the Infodemic”. “The aim is stop key platforms like Facebook, Google and Twitter from promoting misinformation about vital issues like COVID-19 and instead to favour evidence-based journalism from bona fide outlets,”

I’m happy to announce that on the day my column appeared, YouTube ended its shadow-ban of the Hitchens interview.

Will there be any trace of self-examination and shame on the part of the censors and the advocates of censorship, as example after example comes out of their having censored truth and promoted lies?

No, there won’t, because these people have no shame about what they do. Some of them are probably paid shills, but most of them are worse than that – they are do-gooding busybodies. They convince themselves that what they are doing is for the Greater Good, and if “mistakes were made”, such collateral damage merely means they must try harder in the future.

. “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

22291 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Mark, 6, #78 of 1704 🔗

Great post. There are no independent fact checkers. Fact checking is censorship in disguise. Some big entities jumped to the opportunity to get involved in fact checking so that they can manage the narrative to suit their own messages.

22946 ▶▶▶ Liberty, replying to Victoria, 2, #79 of 1704 🔗

Yes, I keep seeing videos entitled ‘debunked conspiracy theory’ on youtube related to the virus, the lockdowns etc. When I try to search for the original conspiracy theory videos, I can’t even watch them as they’ve removed them. It’s just those with power finding another way to censor the truth, censor alternative views and gaslight the population into thinking the MSM narrative is the truth.

22084 Chas, replying to Chas, 4, #80 of 1704 🔗

I can’t follow the link The 1957-58 Asian Flu Pandemic: Why Did the UK Respond So Differently? “ It simply tells me “Sorry you are not allowed to preview drafts” What am I doing wrong?

22088 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Chas, 1, #81 of 1704 🔗

Looks like Toby put the wrong link in. You can find the essay at the link in the list top right, or here:

The 1957-58 Asian Flu Pandemic: Why Did the UK Respond So Differently?

22717 ▶▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to Mark, 4, #82 of 1704 🔗

Because the country was run by grown-ups then?

22723 ▶▶▶▶ Edna, replying to Mike Smith, 5, #83 of 1704 🔗

Yes!! Ever since the 60s, it seems to me, this country has increasingly followed a path of infantilisation. Until we end up with the current situation where, apparently, the majority of the population needs to be told by the government what to think and what to do. I despair.

22923 ▶▶▶▶▶ Pamela Friend, replying to Edna, 1, #84 of 1704 🔗

Oh, I do so agree with this. I’ve been blaming Shirley Williams and the changes made to the educational system, for years!

22820 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Mike Smith, 3, #85 of 1704 🔗

And the populace was expected to behave like grown-ups.

22086 Chas, replying to Chas, 12, #86 of 1704 🔗

I am also waiting to hear what you might be doing on the wider political landscape as I think that none of the Lib/Lab/Con politicians have the interests of GB at heart.

22136 ▶▶ John P, replying to Chas, 10, #87 of 1704 🔗

They never did. Most of them are self serving, greedy and driven solely by personal ambition.

22795 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to John P, 2, #88 of 1704 🔗

And they’re enjoying being paid extra to do SFA.

22947 ▶▶▶ Liberty, replying to John P, 1, #89 of 1704 🔗

I’ve realised this too. The country is basically run by a load of sociopathic criminals. We have to find a way to take our country back.

23454 ▶▶ Nerina Villa, replying to Chas, #90 of 1704 🔗

Me too, I long for politians to back or even just not be ashamed of.

22087 GetaGrip, replying to GetaGrip, 16, #91 of 1704 🔗

The Masks Review in today’s update appears to have overlooked a Lancet metanalysis in the last few days.

It’s (1) by the Lancet and (2) WHO funded, so the sceptic claxon is rightly blaring out, but it deserves airing, because I’m sure it’s no coincidence that the BMA are now calling for greater mask use, and Gov to fund it – presumably out of the loose change they have left over after pissing away the massive loan they took out to pay for the delayed-redundancy-scheme, I mean furlough.


A highlight is the ‘low certainty’ re confidence in the mask protection result. This is a scientific language for ‘ummm, not sure really’.

Perhaps an insufficiently strong endorsement to evidence a Government policy you may think, but watch this space.

The public seems to like the idea of muzzles, and when did shite science ever stop this lot imposing some pointless opinion poll focus-group led imposition upon us.

22096 ▶▶ Julian, replying to GetaGrip, 17, #92 of 1704 🔗

Sainsbury’s in my town this evening, a very very low percentage of customers and staff wearing masks.

22595 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Julian, 6, #93 of 1704 🔗

If all the supermarket chains announced that they would not enforce muzzling in their stores, what could the Supreme Soviet do? Close them all down?

Dream on, Annie.

22089 coalencanth12, replying to coalencanth12, 3, #94 of 1704 🔗

Karol Sikora and Piers ‘Morgan’ Moron are facing off on Twitter……

22091 ▶▶ Mark, replying to coalencanth12, 2, #95 of 1704 🔗

The sublime versus the ridiculous?

22097 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Mark, 8, #96 of 1704 🔗

Class vs. oaf

22094 ▶▶ Poppy, replying to coalencanth12, 19, #97 of 1704 🔗

Piers honestly leaves me speechless with his hypocrisy. I’d love nothing more than to see him held personally responsible at the future inquiry for confecting the mass panic out of which we cannot escape. Sikora dealing with him as classily as ever though, making Moron look like… well, just that.

22135 ▶▶▶ John P, replying to Poppy, 5, #98 of 1704 🔗

I agree, people like Morgan are indeed responsible for much of this.

22112 ▶▶ matt, replying to coalencanth12, 5, #99 of 1704 🔗

I should be able to stomach Sikora, but I can’t. He used to be a colleague of my dad’s and my dad loathed him, and I knew his son and I wasn’t a fan. If my dad was still alive, the current prevalence of Sikora would be the thing most irritating him.

This has been a completely irrelevant public service announcement.

22202 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to matt, 2, #100 of 1704 🔗

But even tossers can be 100% correct.

Shame about Piers.

22220 ▶▶▶ Sally, replying to matt, 3, #101 of 1704 🔗

I can’t stand him because he supported lockdown at the beginning. He was on the pro-lockdown side in the Oxford debate that Hitchens took part in. He may be singing the right song now, but when it really counted, when some heavyweights could have helped swing the argument in the other direction, he was on the other side.

Your PSA was appreciated.

22422 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Sally, 1, #102 of 1704 🔗

I dunno I think the fact he was pro lockdown before the *actual* data came in lends credence to our cause.

22511 ▶▶▶▶ Gossamer, replying to Sally, 5, #103 of 1704 🔗

Hi Sally, do you mean the Cambridge Union debate? I remember being puzzled when he was billed as speaking on the pro-lockdown side (as he was already very outspoken about cancer patients dying as a result of the measures) and indeed, his contribution to the debate seemed to go far more in the “we have to get out of this” direction.

I also remember the pro-lockdown epidemiologists in that debate being very unimpressive – they had little to offer by way of facts, just emotive platitudes and speculation.

I think Sikora was very deliberately *not* parading his anti-lockdown colours to the masses, in order not to have his views instantly dismissed. There’s a lot of psychology at play when it comes to getting hostile audiences to actually listen.

22721 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to Gossamer, 3, #104 of 1704 🔗

I can’t understand why an epidemiologist would be emotive. Surely they ought to be presenting their data and then standing aside while the politicians weigh up their data alongside all the other information. Such as information about the problems a lockdown would cause. The epidemiologists are only experts in their own field. If that.

23157 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Gossamer, replying to Mike Smith, #105 of 1704 🔗

The difficulty with epidemiology is that it essentially needs to be multidisciplinary – combining knowledge from diverse yet interdependent areas such as mathematics, virology, immunology, ecology, anthropology, politics, economics and so on. Yet even the brightest of polymaths would struggle to develop sufficient expertise in all these areas. Genuine scientific rigour and integrity would allow for this and seek to mitigate the weaknesses – but recent evidence shows that rigour and integrity are not necessarily valued when there is an agenda to be served.

22092 Cassandra, replying to Cassandra, 25, #106 of 1704 🔗

Hi guys, and thank you for the update, Toby.

Firstly, may I apologise for any anger I might have expressed previously regarding the arbitrary absurdity of many of the regulations currently in force.

I appreciate that these are trying times, in the new normal. To this end, with the assistance of some of my friends, I have designed a flowchart to remind you what is and is not permissible in Britain in 2020. Feel free to forward this to anyone who is confused about the new normal, like yourselves, and share it as widely as possible to ensure adherence to the rules.

Together, one day, with the assistance of these rules, we may beat this highly lethal disease. #staysafe

22100 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Cassandra, #107 of 1704 🔗

Excellent. On the subject of eyesight testing, this is worth a read if you fancy a laugh. The answers from Gray, Oakeshott and Tice are a hoot. Shame there was no comments page underneath: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/05/tory-mp-bob-seely-attended-lockdown-barbecue-with-journalists

22155 ▶▶▶ Sarigan, replying to Julian, #108 of 1704 🔗

British sarcasm at its best and as you say, shame no comments section.

Linked articles on the page:


22824 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Sarigan, 1, #109 of 1704 🔗

WHO has gone from masks make no difference to official masks-for-all recommendations. The waterproof bit is very worrying. How could you do a long train journey suffocating behind one of those?!

22815 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Julian, #110 of 1704 🔗

Gray needs to put an eyechart on the garage door, then everything would be legit!

Ian Lavery’s comments are just nauseating. Good job I haven’t had any sausages – though I don’t understand why they were so keen to stress Seely’s alcoholic abstenance. Have I missed something?

22118 ▶▶ Cassandra, replying to Cassandra, 3, #111 of 1704 🔗

Here’s a link for anyone who wants a copy https://www.flickr.com/photos/64809886@N06/49974864791/

22128 ▶▶ Bob, replying to Cassandra, 2, #112 of 1704 🔗

That is fantastic! After this week a branch point for antilockdown protest vs. BLM protest could be added to the outside section.

22201 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Bob, 1, #113 of 1704 🔗

I thought “is it related to an international event” was a slightly coy reference to exactly that, surely?

22098 Hubes, replying to Hubes, 44, #114 of 1704 🔗

I know everybody here feels the same but this is getting really depressing.
When we went into lockdown. I thought that by June we’d be nearly back to normal and that probably the only thing we wouldn’t have by now would be events with large crowds, but they’d be back by summer.

Instead rather than looking like coming out of it everything just keeps getting worse. No end in sight to the ridiculous social distancing. Face coverings now mandatory on public transport and in hospitals. Quarantine of people travelling here. Pretty much everywhere still shut or if they are open they might as well not be because of the new rules they have in place.

It’s like Groundhog Day and every morning I get a sense of dread about what rubbish is going to come over the next 24 hours.
When Phil hits Ned is what I feel like doing when I walk past a mask wearer. How long is all this nonesense going to go on. It’s draining having to put up with it.

The only positive is I’m going outdoor karting tomorrow, that’s the only place where I will ever where anything that covers my face

22106 ▶▶ Hubes, replying to Hubes, #115 of 1704 🔗

Wear not where

22829 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Hubes, 2, #116 of 1704 🔗

Have a great time!

22903 ▶▶ Laura, replying to Hubes, 3, #117 of 1704 🔗

100% agree. There was never a way out of “lockdown” and a terrified nation fearing for their “safety” will now demand insane measures until there is a vaccine (it’s never coming).

22102 guy153, replying to guy153, 2, #118 of 1704 🔗

I had a look at the Dalgleish/Sørensen paper ( https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/qrb-discovery/article/biovacc19-a-candidate-vaccine-for-covid19-sarscov2-developed-from-analysis-of-its-general-method-of-action-for-infectivity/DBBC0FA6E3763B0067CAAD8F3363E527 )

I don’t know which version this is but they stop short of saying they think the virus is actually genetically engineered.

What they seem to be saying is that the SARS2 virus doesn’t just enter cells at the ACE2 receptor but in some other places as well, and that maybe there’s a risk that antibodies attaching to the wrong parts of the spike protein might make it easier for the virus to get into cells. This is so-called “antibody dependent enhancement”.

The only evidence they give for thinking this other receptor is in play is “clinical evidence of its infectivity and pathogenicity”. But there are plenty of competing theories for how SARS2 causes anosmia and thrombosis that don’t require it entering cells in a different place.

I don’t think there’s any evidence for antibody-dependent-enhancement with any of the existing vaccine programs. Lots of the vaccine attempts for SARS1 and MERS showed a kind of enhancement that was very similar to that which happened with the RSV vaccine in the 1960s (which was actually used on people, caused a lot of serious illness, and two dead children). This was analyzed in some detail for RSV and found fairly convincingly to be because of Th2 hypersensitivity. This is precipitated by helper-T memory resulting in too many of the wrong kind of cytokines when you get infected. It’s nothing to do with the virus entering cells more easily.

All the SARS1, MERS and SARS2 vaccine candidates showed good viral clearance which implies the antibodies were working well. Unfortunately many of the SARS1 and MERS candidates also had enhancement issues that looked very similar to the ones that the Formalin-inactivated whole virus RSV vaccine had in the 1960s– Th2 hypersensitivity.

I am a bit worried about the Chinese PiCoVacc vaccine (that it might cause enhancement) but I don’t see any reason to believe that Biovacc-19 will be preferable to ChAdOx1.

22117 ▶▶ John P, replying to guy153, 2, #119 of 1704 🔗

“I don’t know which version this is but they stop short of saying they think the virus is actually genetically engineered.”

It’s doubtful. I have long thought – and this was also discussed by John Lee in his interview with James Delingpole – that it could not be considered a very good bioweapon given the low fatality rates.

So, I’m not with Dearlove on that one.

All the rest – with respect – is surely a bit too technical to fully assess without first having specialist knowledge.

The central point is that this is really not a very serious bug.

22665 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to John P, 6, #120 of 1704 🔗

Frankly, if the Chinese has weaponised anything here, it’s oppressive public health policy. Shutting down the productivity of a single province for a few weeks is an acceptable loss if it means the rest of the world follows suit with entire countries.

22666 ▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to matt, #121 of 1704 🔗


Oh, for an edit button.

22200 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to guy153, 1, #122 of 1704 🔗

I’m still with my theory that it’s a naturally occurring virus within China that they sent to the lab to be researched/experimented on for whatever reason. So I suppose my views sort of correlate with his but I’m not sure how intentional all this was. I think it was prob more a fact finding exercise that went horribly wrong – and escaped from the lab.

22346 ▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Farinances, 1, #123 of 1704 🔗

Yes I think that’s pretty likely. But the thing that escaped may have had some “gain of function” work done on it. Those Australian guys Toby mentioned the other day claimed that it was much better at infecting humans than any other animal. But they were just running computer models, not trying it out on actual animals, and may have just been looking for a bit of notoriety.

22652 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to guy153, #124 of 1704 🔗

What possible function could splicing it with HIV serve? Is this the thing that makes it easier to infect humans?

22689 ▶▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Farinances, 1, #125 of 1704 🔗

I’m not sure I’m ready to believe anyone was splicing it with HIV just yet 🙂

“Gain of function” is where you just speed up evolution a bit by letting it feast on human cells for a while until it gets better at it. One way of making vaccines is to do this the other way around– you feed the virus chickens for a while until it loses some of its taste for humans. Hey presto a vaccine. This works well.

I’m not convinced there’s good evidence yet that this was done on SARS2 either.

This paper is worth reading: https://doi.org/10.1101/2020.03.02.974139

Basically they’re saying that a natural bat virus (RMYN02) shows insertions into the Spike protein in the same places as SARS2, thus demonstrating that this kind of mutation is quite natural. Of course a conspiracy theorist would just say they cooked up RMYN02 in the same lab 🙂

22965 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to guy153, 1, #126 of 1704 🔗

Aaaah ok. Right. I think I get it. Thanks for explaining, the articles are often too jargony for me so I find you and swedenborg do a better job 😊 you’re serving an educational function here!
Yeah I dunno wtf this HIV idea came from but it seems so completely rando I’m struggling to imagine any reasoning for it

22103 ILowe, replying to ILowe, 6, #127 of 1704 🔗

1/ Dr Malcolm Kendrick has another excellent blog, with free discussion permitted. https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/  How does Covid kill people
2/ https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/05/22/nothing-can-justify-this-destruction-of-peoples-lives/ Yoram Lass, former director of Israel’s Health Ministry, on the hysteria around Covid-19
3/ Lockdown Lunacy: the thinking person’s guide. https://jbhandleyblog.com/ Brilliant clear summary

22255 ▶▶ annie, replying to ILowe, 9, #128 of 1704 🔗

Many thanks for the Kendrick link.At last, somebody who knows what he’s talking about.
Note his answer to the query about masks: ‘Masks are useless for protecting the wearer.’
Follow that science, government turds.
Sorry, I don’t usually use such language, but…
Masks may protect you from it.

22256 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to annie, 7, #129 of 1704 🔗

PS. Also, take a look at his comments on death statistics.
I’m still reeling from this one:

‘Then, along comes COVID-19, and many of the rules [about death certificates] – such as they were – went straight out of the window. At one point, it was even suggested that relatives could fill in death certificates, if no-one else was available. Though I am not sure this ever happened.’

I note the last sentence. But I’m still reeling.And he only says he’s ‘not sure’ it ever happened.

22476 ▶▶▶ paulito, replying to annie, 3, #130 of 1704 🔗

Dr. kendrick’s books are highly recommended as well. Doctoring Data is great in explaining how “the Science” is manipulated.

22105 Jane Harry, 8, #131 of 1704 🔗

thank you Toby for your work and thank you to Caroline too for supporting you to do it

22107 John P, replying to John P, 9, #132 of 1704 🔗

HCQ? Surely, it’s rather a pointless exercise.

The disease is really not that serious for the vast majority anyway, as we all know.

I tend to think that obsessing over possible cures for covid19 are in an indirect – and I daresay unintentional way – reinforcing the official narrative that this is something we really need to worry about, when it really isn’t.

The human immune system will see it off for the vast majority.

Why so much fuss for a bug that apparently a significant number of those infected don’t even know they have?

22120 ▶▶ Mark, replying to John P, 1, #133 of 1704 🔗

Yes, for that reason I never really bothered investigating it – it all seemed, and seems, so unnecessary.

Fwiw, my general recollection of roughly how it went was that HCQ became an issue when it was promoted by a couple of national leaders, Trump and Bolsonaro, who were rightly concerned to try to address the ridiculous hysterical fear of the disease, that they could see being pushed on their nations.

Those leaders, of course, do not pay proper worship to the politically correct concerns of the “woke”, and are therefore particularly hated by the classes who make up the majority of media and “big tech” social media controllers and establishment opinion writers and “influencers” in the US sphere.As a result there was a huge backlash against the drug driven by those establishment types, because of its association with those two leaders, and with other lockdown sceptic figures who sought to use the drug in the same way, to try to calm the hysteria they saw building up.

22173 ▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Mark, 6, #134 of 1704 🔗

I always assumed the problem was that HCQ was cheap and plentiful and the people behind all this were keen to sell lots of remdesivir or something more cutting edge and profitable. But this is pure malicious speculation on my part.

22199 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to guy153, 2, #135 of 1704 🔗

I’ve no doubt you’ve identified a reason why it wasn’t pushed, and for some of the effort invested in denigrating it, but it doesn’t account for the visceral hostility we’ve seen at places like the BBC and Guardian, and amongst the “woke” elsewhere.

22485 ▶▶▶▶▶ paulito, replying to Mark, 8, #136 of 1704 🔗

How I hate the word “woke”. The most blinkered, unthinking, ignorant people in history.

22952 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Liberty, replying to paulito, #137 of 1704 🔗

Yes. The irony of the ‘woke’ is that they couldn’t be more asleep.

23091 ▶▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to guy153, 1, #138 of 1704 🔗

Who is one of the biggest investors of the company that has the patent for remdesivir? Hint – he’s also financially linked to all our “experts” and most of the SAGE committee one way or another and outright lied at the GAVI script reading idiocy a few days ago when he said children were in danger from coronavirus.

Answer Bill Gates.

Also I think HCQ coast $0.93 per treatment and the new drug about $4600 so it’s about money. Will try and find the link.

The new drug also only has a 3% increase in survival rate so statistically it is not even a “cure” as such.

HCQ has had quiet a few successes reported by doctors all around them old so can’t have that can we?

23569 ▶▶▶▶ djaustin, replying to guy153, #139 of 1704 🔗

The economic benefits to one modest company (Gilead) pale into insignificance compared to the economic benefit to the world economy were such a medicine to be produced, so it’s really not a big pharma conspiracy. And it won’t be remdesivir anyway. The fact is that no drugs were developed against SARS-COV-1 in 2003 because it died off rapidly and market forces decided that it was not worth pursuing further – how would you sell it? Isn’t that the role of government – future protection of its citizens as per procurement of PPE and other measures for future pandemic preparedness (The US fund this research through BARDA btw). Any medicine so developed would be in huge demand now and the economy is paying for that falling.

22165 ▶▶ guy153, replying to John P, 1, #140 of 1704 🔗

Covid (and other viral infections like it) do kill a lot of people. The work on treatments and vaccines is worth doing and much of it will also be applicable to diseases caused by other viruses. That at least may be some good to come out of all this.

Yes it’s out of proportion and is putting back other vaccination projects that will save more lives (eradication of TB), not to mention completely destroying health services, but in itself it’s a good thing and you might as well salvage anything positive you can from a bad situation.

22299 ▶▶▶ Victoria, replying to guy153, 6, #141 of 1704 🔗

It is important to look at the pros and cons of vaccines. Also the adverse effects v benefits. Due to full censorship on the safety and effectiveness on vaccines we do not have an answer whether vaccines are safe for all of us and whether these vaccines are effective in protecting us. Last year the flu vaccine had a success rate of 17%.

Always check the ingredients and side effects of any prescribed pharmaceutical drug or vaccine before taking it.

Our best protection is a well functioning immune system and to recover as best we can from pre-existing medical conditions.

22354 ▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Victoria, 1, #142 of 1704 🔗

My view of Covid vaccines is that because of the low fatality of Covid it’s very hard to be sure that the risk from the vaccine is lower. I’m sure the vaccine itself will be harmless but it’s not clear that the risk of “enhancement”– where it makes the disease worse– is lower than the actual risk from Covid in the first place, certainly for anyone under 75 without comorbidites. If they rush these vaccines through and then they do have problems it’s going to give vaccination a bad name for decades.

I agree flu vaccines are not very effective but I think that’s mostly for a different reason– because flu viruses mutate so much.

22197 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to John P, 4, #143 of 1704 🔗

I wholeheartedly agree.

Could be useful for the old people though.

Dolores Cahill keeps talking about a doctor who prescribed HCQ for his elderly patients and simply posted the pills through their doors. Only a tiny proportion ended up in hospital and they all lived. So… I really feel you but maybe it would be useful for them.

22752 ▶▶ djaustin, replying to John P, #144 of 1704 🔗

Polio was a mild infection for most. Point me to a study of the long-term morbidity of SARS-COV-2 infection.

22772 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to djaustin, 4, #145 of 1704 🔗

There you have it – trash the economy and throw any idea of civil rights into the dustbin because it’s just possible some of the people getting a minor disease might get serious consequences down the line. No particular reason to expect it of course. But just in case.

Precautionary principle, donchaknow?

What’s that, did someone say what about precautions against immiserating the population with these disastrous economic effects? Oh that’s not a matter for precaution you see, because we know that’s going to happen…

22108 Tenchy, replying to Tenchy, 44, #146 of 1704 🔗

It was entirely predictable that this (manmade) crisis would bring out the worst in people. Consider plod and their persecution of people sitting in their own gardens or delivering food for their parents. Then we have those pompous, spiteful bottom feeders in local councils up and down the land who lock up public toilets and car parks. And who could forget Lt Gruber with his high-handed attitude, lecturing the population about staying at home, as though they’re naughty children, and the poison dwarf in Scotland doing the same. And it’s Scotland again that gives us the worst example yet in the shape of Chief Constable Iain Livingstone. This from The Telegraph:

Scotland’s Chief Constable has asked people to inform on their neighbours hosting house gatherings this weekend amid fears wet weather will encourage indoor parties.

Iain Livingstone urged Scots to do the “right thing” and contact the police, arguing that house or dinner parties are “particularly dangerous” as coronavirus spreads much more quickly indoors.

Speaking ahead of the second weekend of lockdown being eased in Scotland, he said his officers would initially try to explain to the hosts why they should not be holding gatherings but if this does not work “we will enforce the law because there is high risk”.

What an obnoxious git he must be!

22139 ▶▶ GetaGrip, replying to Tenchy, 25, #147 of 1704 🔗

This is extremely unhealthy for a so-called democracy and has disturbing echoes of ‘denunciations’ in Nazi occupied France.

We already have 200,000+ police reports for neighbour grassing during the Lockdown.

Not good.

22141 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Tenchy, 15, #148 of 1704 🔗

Jesus wept.

This is like the NKVD asking for people to snitch on their neighbours at the height of the Great Purges in the 1930s.

Wonder what Stalin and Beria would make of all of this?

22156 ▶▶ Bella, replying to Tenchy, 3, #149 of 1704 🔗

The risk is now eff all you stupid see you next Tuesday

22955 ▶▶ Liberty, replying to Tenchy, 5, #150 of 1704 🔗

Thanks for raising the point about the public toilets, it’s one of the many issues that have made me feel quite despairing recently. It is just so utterly stupid, unthinking, spiteful, authoritarian and pointless to close public toilets. It not only inconveniences people but harms them, because it puts them on a urinary leash, forced to stay near their homes, or forces them the indignity of having to go behind a tree. No civil society would treat its citizens in such an appalling way. They are using the word ‘safety’ to inflict real harm on people. The people most inconvenienced by a lack of public toilets are the elderly, disabled, those with certain health conditions and pregnant women. So many of these cruel policies seem to either completely ignore or deliberately target these demographics of people, one of the many things that keep me up at night.

22111 They dont like it up 'em, 13, #151 of 1704 🔗

Don’t worry Toby it was well worth waiting for and improved my Friday evening! Even one of these every other day helps get us through the days of this bonkers nonsense. Initially I thought this would be for 3 weeks and I wondered how I would get through that. Now we are week 10 and still with no real end in sight…..does this government even want there to be one? The ludicrous ‘new normal’ measures seem destined to further intensify the economic disaster to follow. So thanks….you can never be called a ‘cuck’ by James ever again…you have been at the very top of the tree of some very honourable sceptics.

22113 OKUK, 27, #152 of 1704 🔗

To Toby,

I think we all very much appreciate the effort you have gone to above and beyond all your day jobs to create this free speech space for proper examination of lockdown claims – the sort of thing that our mainstream media should be doing but isn’t.

And congratulations on helping get Peter Hitchens’s interview un-shadow banned, though of course that is a well known tactic of tyrants everywhere (to let the tide ebb a little before it pushes further up the beach).

22116 Mimi, replying to Mimi, 14, #153 of 1704 🔗

Toby, You’ve done amazing work assembling sane facts and arguments and providing a forum for those of us who are losing our minds. Thank you for that! Of course you can’t single-handedly hold up the skeptic effort! In the meantime, perhaps other Skeptics can contribute daily columns? But seriously, I am incredibly grateful to you for creating this community.

I hope we’re on the far right tail of this whole experience and all of it can be allowed to peter out. Brexit and the next election will happen one way or another, and might take the wind out of everyone’s sails? Or the furlough schemes will peter out. Or something. Heck, maybe an actually deadly disease will strike!

22119 ▶▶ John P, replying to Mimi, 18, #154 of 1704 🔗

“Heck, maybe an actually deadly disease will strike!”

Well there’s definitely going to be an epidemic of cancer. That is 100% certain.

22122 Poppy, replying to Poppy, 70, #155 of 1704 🔗

Thank you so much for all your updates Toby. You have been my absolute hero throughout this madness. This page really has been my beacon of sanity throughout all of this – not only because of all the fantastic information you collate, but also because of all the wonderful and supportive people I have met in the comments – you have brought us all together. I genuinely feel part of a community and I look forward to reading and replying to the comments each day – some of them informative, some of them really touching, and some of them completely hilarious (e.g. Biker’s ‘Pictish Underground’ updates!). As a young person I feel like the government has completely thrown my generation under the bus but on here, I have a voice and even though I myself have no platform, I am comforted by the fact that there are distinguished scientists and journalists who can speak for me. The truth will set us free. The amount of effort you have put into this page has been truly incredible and I will still eagerly look forward to your updates, even if they are less often now.

It is very true that things are getting incredibly depressing now and like Hubes’ comment below, I too honestly did think we would be back to normal by now bar mass gatherings. I think the UK has the lethal combination of a fetishised health service which puts us in a policy straitjacket (we must protect the NHS at quite literally any cost) as well as a Prime Minister who had a very bad personal experience with the virus which, although understandably scary for him, is now blinkering his approach in getting us out of this. No other major country has these two factors.

But, we must never, ever give up. Exactly a year ago today I had finished my final university exams – I ran out of the exam hall and into my boyfriend’s arms as he picked me up and spun me around. We walked home hand-in-hand; I felt as light as a feather because I had no more studying to worry about. My biggest worry was what outfit I would wear for the post-exam shopping trip the next day – and that’s how it SHOULD be for a
20-year-old who has just finished her exams. We went home and made homemade pesto sauce before watching Borat and laughing until we cried. It was absolutely tipping it down with rain that evening, almost monsoon-like in the sticky summer air, and I listened to the broken hiss of the raindrops outside the open window as I lay on the bed holding his hand, feeling completely at peace.

It’s the little things like that which I miss more than anything, and which spur me on to fight against this hell with all my might. It’s the little things that make life worth living and make us who we are. They can try and take those things away from us, but they can never
take away the memories of them which ignite our spirit.

My message to anyone on this comments board – next time you feel hopeless or despondent at the hurricane of insanity unfolding around you, think of your happiest memories. Think of those things which make you who you are. Let them flow through you, let that warmth radiate and picture it burning away the anger, the distress, the hopelessness. The warm embraces of loved ones; the smiles of children; the laughter of your friends; gatherings to mark special occasions; getting a sandwich from your favourite café; stroking a childhood pet; freewheeling downhill on a bicycle with the wind in your hair; that amazing holiday which you’ll remember forever; scoring that dream job and how proud you felt; watching the sunset on a bright summer’s evening; chasing the sunrise on a crisp winter’s morning.

And these are just a few trite examples, just the ‘little things’ which barely scratch the surface of the totality and significance of the human condition but somehow reveal more about us than anything else ever could. Billions upon billions of people have come before us and have enjoyed the things which make them human. These are the things which feed the life force in our bosoms, and we will enjoy them once again. We will . A mild virus pandemic will not wipe clean the ancient slates of our souls.

22129 ▶▶ John P, replying to Poppy, 12, #156 of 1704 🔗

I know this is mostly addressed to Toby, but what a wonderful comment. Thank you Poppy for your positivity at a time when so many are feeling so low!

22143 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Poppy, 6, #157 of 1704 🔗

Well said Poppy. I enjoyed reading you account of your final university exams and it made me smile. That’s what happiness is – it not the big things or the grand gestures but little things even the mundane that sums up who we are.

Thank you.

22144 ▶▶ Gracie Knoll, replying to Poppy, 11, #158 of 1704 🔗

That was bloody lovely, Poppy.

22178 ▶▶ Sue, replying to Poppy, 7, #159 of 1704 🔗

wow what a wonderful post Poppy – thanks!

22203 ▶▶ crimsonpirate, replying to Poppy, 5, #160 of 1704 🔗

Don’t worry, in time, you will look upon this forum with lock down nostalgia. It may not feel like it now but hopefully I’m right.

22257 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to crimsonpirate, 9, #161 of 1704 🔗

I agree, pirate. We will look back. Not with smiles, but with gratitude to all those who helped to preserve our sanity through this nightmare.
Bkackburd sung in his heart out near my window just now. He agrees.

22286 ▶▶ TJN, replying to Poppy, 7, #162 of 1704 🔗

As Poppy writes, it’s good how the little things in life, and the thought of getting back to small pleasures, has kept people going through this most trying time.

I must confess, such simple thoughts have meant pretty well nothing to me. It’s been bending the inane rules and finding new ways of taking the piss that’s kept me going.

22308 ▶▶ Cbird, replying to Poppy, 6, #163 of 1704 🔗

Poppy, you are an inspiration. Mature beyond your years. Such an eloquent and uplifting post. Thank you

22503 ▶▶ scepticalsue, replying to Poppy, 7, #164 of 1704 🔗

This made me really emotional, how the simplest pleasures are truly the ones that make life worth living.
I truly hope that in the not-so-distant future we can all once again take comfort in the little things that are currently being denied to us – for me it will be meeting up for a few drinks in my favourite beer garden on a warm summer evening, surrounded by laughter and twinkling fairy lights without a face mask in sight.
Poppy you write absolutely beautifully and it’s always a pleasure to read your comments.

22855 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Poppy, 5, #165 of 1704 🔗

Great post, Poppy, thanks.
I too feel to have found a community here.

This morning, I read some comments in the Torygraph, regarding the wearing of muzzles. I started to respond to one but just gave up, feeling what’s-the-point despair because the commenters were so convinced that muzzle-wearing will save us all, the virus is increasing, second wave is coming (and third!) etc etc.

I felt guilty not standing up to these sickeningly smug people, who are happy to watch the economy tank while disregarding the suffering it will cause to so many, no doubt enjoying their salaries or sizeable pensions. They are not the majority, yet they have the loudest voice. Unfortunately I couldn’t hack it.

Thank goodness I could come here and regain my sanity, read some unfudged statistics and, most importantly, find something to laugh about.

22956 ▶▶ Liberty, replying to Poppy, 4, #166 of 1704 🔗

What a great post Poppy, you are a wonderful writer. I hope you are writing a blog or using your writing skills to express how you feel elsewhere too? Maybe Toby could give you a weekly column from the perspective of a young person. Reading your post made me feel better because I was under the impression a lot of people your age were fine with all of this madness. I’ve received several angry, aggressive messages from young people because I shared some lockdown skeptic views on social media and questioned the hypocrisy and violence of the BLM riots. It’s a big relief to know that not everyone in your generation is on board with the mainstream narrative.

22123 Old fred, replying to Old fred, 17, #167 of 1704 🔗

There seem to be a few worrying reports in the media today re WHO now recommending face masks be worn in public at all times, not just on public transport.

i wouldn’t be surprised If this is the next surprise they have in store for us here.

Can’t see the public accepting it myself, but that wouldn’t stop them.

Virus disappearing fast and Big Brother taking its place.

22124 ▶▶ John P, replying to Old fred, 9, #168 of 1704 🔗

The Who? Well, I know I won’t get fooled again.

Personally I prefer Roger Daltrey’s advice.

22151 ▶▶ Bella, replying to Old fred, 15, #169 of 1704 🔗

As I posted above, Paris yesterday


Hardly a face mask in sight and no un-social distancing. Given they had a much tougher lockdown than we did isn’t that saying something about virus disappearing? But those gangsters at the WHO want the whole world in masks (and then, presumably, chains.)

22215 ▶▶▶ crimsonpirate, replying to Bella, 5, #170 of 1704 🔗

same in Belgium-no more 10 people at a table (1.5m apart) and bars can stay open till 1. I was slightly sceptical about the Belgian Health minister at first but maybe,after all,she has their citizen’s best concerns at heart.

22185 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Old fred, 12, #171 of 1704 🔗

“Can’t see the public accepting it myself”

Unfortunately, I now have no such faith in the British public.

22609 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Barney McGrew, 6, #172 of 1704 🔗

The pessimist in me agrees but the optimist in me thinks that its only a matter of time – the end of the furlough scheme and bad weather is on the horizon. When the harsh economic reality kicks in, people won’t stand for this any longer.

22712 ▶▶ Jonathan Castro, replying to Old fred, 3, #173 of 1704 🔗

It won’t work. I would be one of the many getting arrested and denouncing the government.

22125 Steve Carter, 35, #174 of 1704 🔗

I just wanted to echo some of the other comments by thanking you again for all you are doing and saying that I quite understand why you need to scale back the updates. It’s not much of an exaggeration to say that this site has saved my sanity in the last few weeks. I knew from the start, on principle, that a terrible thing was being done to us, but it was an incredible relief to know that there were many thoughtful and intelligent people who thought as I did, and a pile of empirical evidence to confirm it. There’s a long way to go yet, who knows how long, but I hope that in the end this hideous and dystopian ‘new normal’ will prove to be unsustainable. I know you’ll keep up the great work, in this and other forums!

22127 Hubes, replying to Hubes, 24, #175 of 1704 🔗

On the days there is no update from Toby. It would be great if he could just post a blank page, so we can comment and chat below it. The daily comments on here have helped keep me sane over the past 6 weeks. I know we can comment on a post for several days but the thread gets too long I think.

22132 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Hubes, 3, #176 of 1704 🔗

good idea!

22142 ▶▶ BTLnewbie, replying to Hubes, 5, #177 of 1704 🔗

I wrote to Toby recommending this the other day – I hope he takes it up.

22192 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Hubes, 3, #178 of 1704 🔗

I agree, a placeholder page would be very good.

22193 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Hubes, 7, #179 of 1704 🔗

Good plan, I abandon the threads when they get too long, makes my head hurt

22736 ▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to Hubes, 1, #180 of 1704 🔗

Indeed, and the search function doesn’t work on my computer when the thread gets too long.

22134 ikaraki, replying to ikaraki, 13, #181 of 1704 🔗


Thank you for all you have put into this, the website has been an amazing source of information and discussion throughout lockdown, helping keep me level headed in troubled times.. I hope that it will soon only be necessary as a resource to remind, as much as you have impressed upon me, and we will be able to have a drink in a pub, maybe sitting back to back unknowingly..


22137 ▶▶ Tenchy, replying to ikaraki, 5, #182 of 1704 🔗

Seconded. Keep up the excellent work Toby. I don’t how you find the energy in these thoroughly depressing times.

22140 Bella, replying to Bella, 12, #183 of 1704 🔗

This was Paris yesterday so why are we stuck in hell? They say we’re two weeks behind Francebut we’re not even introducing mandatory masks until 15th. https://twitter.com/Orang3Coin/status/1268956408726331399

22148 ▶▶ BTLnewbie, replying to Bella, 6, #184 of 1704 🔗

It brought a tear to my eye – so THAT’S what normal looks like – show this on MSM and the UK will surely follow.

22153 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Bella, 5, #185 of 1704 🔗

That clip should be broadcast on every channel possible.

22146 matt, replying to matt, 38, #186 of 1704 🔗

I have to be a little circumspect here, because I can’t risk being identified, especially in the current economic climate.

I work for a large American corporation, which is a very large employer in many countries around the world. I was surprised to see in the last few days that our CEO decided to send an internal communication to all employees taking a definite and unequivocal position on the BML protests that are happening in the US and elsewhere. It’s not the first time I’ve seen him go on record with a political opinion, but it’s the first time I’ve seen an official party line be broadcast on this way.

For 3 months, the entire focus of the top management of the company has been on how to mitigate the blood bath that we’re seeing in terms of results around the world because of lockdowns. I know this, because I’ve been in many of the “meetings”. Nobody has been supportive of the lockdown and everyone thinks it’s an overreaction. We’ve lost, at a guess, between $3-4BN in revenue this year, compared to last year (again, to be very clear, I’m not naming the company and I have not seen the actual numbers. This is a gut feel).

Nobody has made any statement on our opinion beyond “keeping employees safe”

How can it make any sense that the corporation is prepared to go on record with an opinion about the death of one man in Minneapolis but not prepared to comment on the destruction of the global economy? It’s perverse.

22150 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to matt, 18, #187 of 1704 🔗

We’ve had a few of those on social media with the likes of Classic FM, Roccoco Chocolates, the Ashmolean, Tate, the Wallace Collection, National Museums of Scotland among others – like you I am puzzled that they see fit to comment about something that didn’t happen here in the UK and nothing to do with us and yet they’re eerily quiet on the erosion of this country’s civil liberties and the perverse social distancing that could lead to their demise.

22154 ▶▶ Theygorightgoleft, replying to matt, 3, #188 of 1704 🔗

Didn’t they also take a position supporting the UK remaining a member of the EU? Assuming I have guessed the firm correctly…?

22157 ▶▶ Tenchy, replying to matt, 8, #189 of 1704 🔗

It can be summed up in two words: woke victimhood. Also, people in the public eye are so shit feared that if they don’t support the current ‘right on’ virtue signalling meme they’ll be seen in a bad light and will be subject to the wrath of the Twitter mob. Worst case, their job could be on the line. Witness all the politicians in the UK trooping out to support the cause. If they didn’t, questions would be asked!

22189 ▶▶ Mark, replying to matt, 3, #190 of 1704 🔗

Well you don;t say what the opinion endorsed was, but it seems a fair bet that the CEO of a major American company is highly unlikely to go on the record with any opinion that offends against the identity lobby mafia – that’s career and social suicide unless you work for one of the very few major companies that has a politically activist owner willing to defend its management against a full on anti-racist witch-hunt, and no exposure to the kind of economic coercion the antiracists can bring to bear.

As for the coronapanic, presumably the reason there’s no official line on that is that the line that would suit the corporation’s direct business interests conflicts with good PR, so there is no safe line to take.

Just guessing.

22247 ▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to Mark, 4, #191 of 1704 🔗

I dont think its fair to call them anti-racists. An anti racist does not make the colour of a persons skin the central issue.

22311 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Saved To Death, 7, #192 of 1704 🔗

Dogmatic “antiracism” is precisely racism, just directed against whites. That’s its essence and its effect. It is a classic case of people accusing others of what they themselves are guilty of – racist hatred. It gains purchase amongst whites themselves because of a prevalent and systematically promoted doctrine of shame about our own culture and history that has its roots in the reaction against imperialism and colonialism.

That underlying doctrine needs somehow to be rooted out, to deny the antiracist haters their power in our societies.

23286 ▶▶ DCParis, replying to matt, 1, #193 of 1704 🔗

I saw a post from the CEO of NMI (www.nmi.com) which was exactly like this. It actually made to never want to have any dealings with that company again.

24501 ▶▶ lhaberle65, replying to matt, 2, #194 of 1704 🔗

Matt, I totally agree! I also work for a large American corporation–a top tech hardware company, and it’s the same at my company. In fact, not only did our CEO make a statement, but the company has driven so many actions to employees–one being an all-employee town hall where those “oppressed” could vocally express their anger, fear, and experience of being “oppressed” with all other employees–perpetuating the victim mentality and BLM narrative. I am so sick of corporate America virtue signaling and pushing political agendas that do not align with my personal beliefs, all while the company’s revenues & profits suffer and while they force me to eliminate American jobs and move them to human rights violator Communist China to save money. Most of my employees are also fed up! I’m actively planning my exit strategy!

24900 ▶▶▶ Anonymous, replying to lhaberle65, 1, #195 of 1704 🔗

Unfortunately, my highest ranking superior has done exactly the same thing where I work. That person made a lengthy statement about the George Floyd incident, and has enacted new policies that overtly create the appearance of our company supporting the BLM movement.

Meanwhile, my employer has not said one word about the countless people who have suffered as a result of the lockdowns—nothing about victims of alcoholism, drug abuse, unemployment, suicide, mental illness, cancer screenings missed and treatments delayed, heart disease appointments missed, and the potential for mass starvation in the Third World. Where is the compassion for these people?

The hypocrisy and irrationality disgust me. One of the greatest ironies in all this is that the lockdowns harmed black people, too—but it doesn’t profit a journalist much to report on black people who killed themselves during lockdown or had their cancer progress to a higher level from not being able to get a screening. Journalists passionately say, “Black lives Matter”—and then freely ignore the black people (or anyone, really) who has suffered from the lockdowns. This is ridiculous and insane! People need to be protesting against mainstream journalists and the other pawns of the media establishment–they really are an enemy of the people, and they hate the truth.

22147 Bella, replying to Bella, 1, #196 of 1704 🔗

Mr Attenborough’s article about the Asian flu in the 1950s is inaccessible. The link just tells me I’m not allowed to read drafts.

22244 ▶▶ Toby Young, replying to Bella, 2, #197 of 1704 🔗

Thanks Bella. I’ve fixed that now.

22149 Bart Simpson, 18, #198 of 1704 🔗

Many thanks Toby for all the hard work you put on this blog with all the informative updates and links. It has been my default go to and has kept me sane especially as I have been boycotting mainstream media and apart from this blog, I only read the Spectator and Spiked online now.

The Dominic Sandbrook article that you linked above chimed with me because yesterday I went to Central London via the tube for the first time since 20 March and while there were some people out and about, it was pretty much how Sandbrook described it – all the shops (save for a few) shut and boarded up, ditto pubs and restaurants, theaters and museums closed. Even the Mall was dead, on any given day the front of Buckingham Palace would be filled with people doing their obligatory photo op in front of this country’s most famous building but there was virtually no-one.

He’s right though – we need to end this lockdown and social distancing if we don’t want an economic apocalypse.

22161 Lockdown Truth, replying to Lockdown Truth, 15, #200 of 1704 🔗

Hi all

I started http://www.lockdowntruth.org a little after Toby started Lockdown Sceptics as I thought I’d add a bit to the cause as there wasn’t much around at the time. I still haven’t done a huge amount with it yet as I have little spare time.

My idea was to have a site where people could contribute posts – particularly catchy, easy to understand ones that could spread “viraly” on social media and convert the average non-believer.

If you are interested in contributing anything please send it to me at mail at lockdowntruth.org and I’ll post it. If you are an advertising or marketing genius it would be great to get your input to help create catchy facts, figures and images that could turn the tide.

I’m particularly concerned about the new “double-down” mentality just when I thought Norway may have started a trend for saying “Sorry, we made a mistake”…

My ultimate goal would be if LockdownTruth became a group project that can then become a force to be reckoned with. I called it Lockdown Truth because I felt that even if this all ends there may be more lockdowns in the future, annual flu lockdowns or at best ten years of debate about the truth of this lockdown.

Please get in touch if you are interested in getting involved.

Thanks for everything so far Toby!

22465 ▶▶ Back To Normal, replying to Lockdown Truth, 6, #201 of 1704 🔗

I think this is a great idea. The only way we are going to end this lockdown/social-distancing/mask-wearing nightmare is if the general (currently brainwashed) public start to think about it and wake-up to the fact that it is all completely bonkers. Its great to vent here on Toby’s site but that does not actually help our cause. Instead we need to be distributing messages and arguments that will ultimately turn public opinion. The government is driven far more by public opinion than science, contrary to what they say.
I also like the LockdownTruth name, as it sounds neutral enough to be more widely appealing. I’m thinking about how to contribute…

22785 ▶▶▶ Lockdown Truth, replying to Back To Normal, 1, #202 of 1704 🔗

Thanks Adam. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

22708 ▶▶ Jonathan Castro, replying to Lockdown Truth, #203 of 1704 🔗

Looks like a well designed site!

22786 ▶▶▶ Lockdown Truth, replying to Jonathan Castro, #204 of 1704 🔗

Thanks Jonathan

22162 Tenchy, replying to Tenchy, 5, #205 of 1704 🔗

I don’t want to add to the overall feeling of depression, but I’ve just been checking out the situation in New Zealand. They have not had a new case since 22 May and the last death was on 28 May. According to the prime minister they will move to Alert Level 1 when there has been no community transmission for 28 days. on 19 June they’ll go to AL1. At that point all anti-social distancing and other restrictions will be abandoned – but people will still need to “be vigilant” and contact tracing will continue. I’m betting they’ll also be keeping the 14 day quarantine for people coming into the country. I don’t think this bodes well for us. If we follow NZ we’ll be anti-social distancing until 28 days after the very last case is recorded. Anyone case to bet when that might be?

22174 ▶▶ John P, replying to Tenchy, 2, #206 of 1704 🔗

Probably never. Dr John Lee suggests we now have to live with this virus. He also suggests that is is not a big deal.

22179 ▶▶ JBW, replying to Tenchy, 6, #207 of 1704 🔗

New Zealand was ‘lucky’ in that it was able to close its borders almost before anyone at all with the dread Plague had arrived. They’re terribly proud of themselves. Unfortunately for them, until or unless a reliable vaccine is discovered, they will have to self-isolate as a nation. There is no alternative; it’s a vaccine, or this disease must go through the population. They might learn a few lessons from others as to how to keep some vulnerable from dying ‘too early’ – but as Levitt said in that recent interview with John Anderson, they are only frail trees waiting for the winter wind. I would hate to be a politician in NZ, or Australia – because the bear-trap waiting for them down the road, just past the point to which they have kicked the can, is a career and political party killer.

22180 ▶▶▶ John P, replying to JBW, 2, #208 of 1704 🔗

A high proportion will not get it even without treatment. (I am paraphrasing Chris Whitty now!)

22186 ▶▶▶ guy153, replying to JBW, 5, #209 of 1704 🔗

Iceland is another one to watch. They have successfully suppressed it like NZ and have only 10 dead out of a population of about 300k. Well done. But their economy is at least half tourism so what now? The last I heard is that they are “open for tourism” and have a competent-sounding plan for testing people at airports. But are they really going to do this for ever or until they have a vaccine?

22219 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to JBW, 3, #210 of 1704 🔗

The absurdity of the situation will become apparent when flu season comes around again and either:

  1. The virus is still present in which case they will likely lock down again or take emergency action to isolate it
  2. The virus is no longer present and they happily let people die of flu because, although deadly, it’s not worth shutting your economy down for
  3. The virus is no longer present and they decide that shutting down the country for the flu is worth it

I think 3 is very unlikely so it’s a toss up between (1) eternal lockdown/social distancing or (2) only COVID-19 lives matter.

23122 ▶▶▶ Ron Corby, replying to JBW, 1, #211 of 1704 🔗

There was always that fine balance between letting it run for long enough to get a good portion of the population infected without it overcoming the vulnerable sectors and becoming the bloodbath it has become in many countries, Brazil for example emerging. Oz and NZ clamped down hard early, I live in Sydney and we should have stopped at the 1 per 4 sqm level. Something like 60% of cases have been imported and once we closed the borders it was always going to be better long term policy to let it run its course through the population. Now after we flattened the curve the state premiers who are in charge of health are as nervous as hell as letting anyone die on their watch so it’s Been a longer way back to normality than it should have been. Our CMO extrapolated UK data and says we save 14,000 lives. OTT estimate but I’ll use it. Budget Office estimates it will cost the country $500bn. That’s $35m a life saved.

22211 ▶▶ Digital Nomad, replying to Tenchy, 17, #212 of 1704 🔗

New Zealand’s prime minister has decided the country’s economy is worth decimating and tourism sector worth destroying for her effort t o outbid Canada’s Justin Trudeau as the woke, left-wing authoritarian of the year.

22237 ▶▶ stevie119, replying to Tenchy, 8, #213 of 1704 🔗

All NZ has done is, effectively, hidden in a submarine for a while. Eventually they will have to resurface at some point. It is not so much the “second wave” they ll have to worry about. They haven t had the first one yet.

22524 ▶▶▶ Gossamer, replying to stevie119, #214 of 1704 🔗

Jacinda is determined to keep NZ in the Trans-Tasman bubble for an indefinite period. Scott Morrison, unfortunately, is buying into her nonsense.

22525 ▶▶▶▶ Gossamer, replying to Gossamer, #215 of 1704 🔗

God only knows when those two nations will rejoin the world…

22163 crimsonpirate, replying to crimsonpirate, 5, #216 of 1704 🔗

latest news on relaxation on bars cafes in Belgium

  • A distance of 1.50 metres between the tables;
  • A maximum of 10 persons per table;
  • Each customer must remain seated at their own table;
  • Waiters have to wear masks;
  • All hospitality establishments are allowed to remain open until one o’clock in the morning, just like the night shops.

As I’m based in London I might just book a visit to Bruges before the flood

22166 ▶▶ Peter Thompson, replying to crimsonpirate, 6, #217 of 1704 🔗

Nope , not interested in conforming to the rules of this new pantomine.

22171 ▶▶ John P, replying to crimsonpirate, #218 of 1704 🔗

I want to emigrate.

22195 ▶▶ OKUK, replying to crimsonpirate, 4, #219 of 1704 🔗

And that is from the country which has by far the highest death rate per million in the world (despite every attempt by the BBC to suggest otherwise). They seem to have been doing much better since they lifted their lockdown.

As Matt Ridley suggests, it’s probably good to get the mild strains circulating in society.

22213 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to OKUK, 1, #220 of 1704 🔗

Huh, I must have missed all the news stories about how the Belgian experiment has been proven to be a complete failure. Unless that was fake news and they have in fact been the most successful country in the world based on their numbers.

22228 ▶▶▶▶ OKUK, replying to Nobody2020, 6, #221 of 1704 🔗

Lol – yes you missed the non-existent reports… 🙂 Despite Belgium being only
a stone’s throw away from us our MSM showed their usual newshound instincts and focussed entirely on Italy (well Northern Italy really but they only rarely made it clear the rest of the country was not much touched by the pandemic) plus Spain, with a bit of France thrown in occasionally.

Why has Belgium been hit so badly? It’s got a female PM, is at the heart of the EU and welcomes migration. How could it not be doing well in terms of BBC analysis, I mean?

22164 djaustin, replying to djaustin, 2, #222 of 1704 🔗

That hydroxychloroquine study in the Lancet may look dubious, and the drug seems highly political in the US. But science does not care for politics. The largest randomised placebo controlled trial run by our own NHS has just stopped HCQ monotherapy on the grounds that it does nothing. That’s it. Debate over. HCQ on its own works no better than placebo. Time to love on.

As for Remdesivir. Three trials have shown variously; it does little in the most severe patients, speeds recovery in moderate patients, and has a modest effect in moderate patients for short courses. This is not the game-changing miracle drug people are hoping for. This is an intravenous tamiflu. A modest effect in mild patients when treated early enough. That’s going to be tricky in the U.K. because you won’t be admitted to a hospital with oxygen >94% on room air. That’s the population it seems to work on.

22167 ▶▶ John P, replying to djaustin, #223 of 1704 🔗

It’s a mnor bug. HCQ? So what? Your immune system will sort it out!

22169 ▶▶▶ John P, replying to John P, #224 of 1704 🔗


22204 ▶▶▶▶ djaustin, replying to John P, #225 of 1704 🔗

For many. I’m eight weeks past acute infection and not yet fully recovered. And it’s not down to any comorbidity. I’m a national level racing cyclist.

22309 ▶▶▶▶▶ Victoria, replying to djaustin, 3, #226 of 1704 🔗

Fix your nutrient levels. Heavy exercise normally results in nutrient deficiencies especially magnesium, vitamin C and zinc.

22592 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Victoria, 1, #227 of 1704 🔗

C’est un malchanceux de la peste.

22893 ▶▶▶▶▶ Felice, replying to djaustin, #228 of 1704 🔗

Higher up the thread, at 21.00, Tim someone-or-other posted this:

Furthermore, outside of care homes, athletes, cyclists, sportsmen in hard training should be added to the list of vulnerable groups. Athletes in hard training suffer damage to their immune systems and are not only more susceptible to ILI but take longer to recover from viral infections as a consequence of the stresses their constitution suffers from a tough training regime.

‘Training, overtraining, and over-reaching will alter the parameters of immune function that we can measure and is therefore likely to affect the outcome, in the short term with respect to how quickly the agent is eliminated, and in the long term with respect to how quickly previous levels of fitness and performance are regained. This recovery will also be influenced by any psychological effects of the episode. For example, post-influenza depression is not uncommon.’


Might explain your problem!

23340 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ djaustin, replying to Felice, #229 of 1704 🔗

Not really. I had not been training for six weeks prior to the infection (had a groin strain so was off the bike completely). So over-training is very unlikely in this instance. Nutrition won’t be an issue either, Most likely it’s genetics,

22172 ▶▶ jrsm, replying to djaustin, 5, #230 of 1704 🔗

Did anyone recommend HCQ monotherapy? I’ve only really seen it used in combination with Azythromicin and / or zinc.

22176 ▶▶▶ John P, replying to jrsm, 9, #231 of 1704 🔗

For God’s sake! I am sick of this. I mean it.


Most people require no treatment at all. Are you shilling for a drug company jrsm?

Many people do not even know they have got it!

22181 ▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to John P, 11, #232 of 1704 🔗

My apology to all. I am at my wits end tonight. This thing is on it’s way out and out braindead “government” tightens the screw. I really am sick of this. As I say, I apologise.

22874 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to John P, 1, #233 of 1704 🔗

We share your frustration.

22183 ▶▶▶▶ jrsm, replying to John P, 2, #234 of 1704 🔗

Of course it is a minor bug. But, now that panic is widespread, you need a way to convince everyone who is scared to death of catching it that they won’t die if they do. Otherwise the totalitarian lockdowns and other restrictions will become permanent.

22212 ▶▶▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to jrsm, 8, #235 of 1704 🔗

They could put a bunch of COVID-19 infected c-list celebrities into a jungle setting and watch them do ridiculous and humiliating tasks. The public can then vote nightly on who they think is faking being alive.

22271 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bill h, replying to Nobody2020, #236 of 1704 🔗

lol ! Would be a hoot.

22190 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to John P, 3, #237 of 1704 🔗

I love you for saying that John.

The madness of people running round saying we need to cure the common cold…..

22313 ▶▶▶▶ Victoria, replying to John P, 4, #238 of 1704 🔗

Agree our immune systems keeps us alive every day by fighting viruses, bacteria, toxins, other pathogens etc.

Optimise Vitamin D levels (Supplement and safe sun exposure), Vitamin C (build collagen and anti-viral), Zinc. Eat a whole food diet, eliminate junk food, drink clean quality water, sleep, keep moving, keep stress levels low.

Unfortunately the lockdown is counter productive as it keep people indoors (not getting fresh air and sunshine), less active and more stressed.

More people die from influenza than Covid.

22184 ▶▶▶ guy153, replying to jrsm, 3, #239 of 1704 🔗

Yes (and my apologies to John Pretty who is bored of this) the theory behind how it works is that it transports zinc into the cells (it’s a “zinc ionophore”). If you have zinc in there it disrupts the transcription of the virus a bit.

So the idea is you take it together with zinc. If you’re actually zinc deficient it’s probably worth taking zinc supplements anyway (or just eating decent food) without the HCQ.

I think djaustin is right that it’s not a miracle cure but it might help a bit in some circumstances.

22191 ▶▶ OKUK, replying to djaustin, 5, #240 of 1704 🔗

I’m not arguing in favour of the drug but if you administer it only to patients on their last legs you won’t get very positive results. You won’t get positive results with any drug full stop. You’d probably have to use it with people in high risk groups to see positive results if it was effective.

22315 ▶▶▶ Victoria, replying to OKUK, 2, #241 of 1704 🔗

Intravenous Vitamin C and other treatments are much more effective but this information is heavily censored.

Dr Brownstein treated more than 100 patients with Covid-19 and all of them recovered. However he has “ been ordered by the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) to stop making any statements about our treatment protocols of Vitamins A, C & D, as well as nutritional IV’s, iodine, ozone and nebulization to support the immune system with respect to Coronavirus Diseases 2019 (COVID-19).”
https://www.drbrownstein.com/there-is-still-hope-out-there ……..and-we-are-taking-time-out-to-re-group/

22766 ▶▶▶▶ djaustin, replying to Victoria, #242 of 1704 🔗

How did the control patients get on?

22236 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to djaustin, 3, #243 of 1704 🔗

“That’s it. Debate over.”

Is that how science works, then? On the basis of one study “it’s over”.

And the “mono” “on its own” stipulation dropped in there looks a somewhat weaselly. If I were making the same point, I would at least mention that “mono” was, perhaps, deliberately chosen as the mode least likely to do anything, and that there was still the possibility that the normal way of using HCQ might still work.

It’s almost as if you want to suppress the possibility of there being a cheap, effective cure for C19, djaustin. Surely not…

22304 ▶▶▶ djaustin, replying to Barney McGrew, 2, #244 of 1704 🔗

It also failed as monotherapy in prophylaxis. In two well-controlled placebo controlled randomised clinical trials. It may do something in combination. But there is no scientific evidence that it has any efficacy or protection of its own. And is known to extend cardiac repolarisation at high doses (probably why the lancet paper was accepted with some cognitive bias in review). Yes that is how science works.

I’d still like to see some mass safety data from database data.

22305 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to djaustin, 3, #245 of 1704 🔗

One of the hydroxychloroquine studies used vitamin C as a placebo (vitamin C is an excellent anti-viral). Obviously the Hydroxychloroquine group would not have performed better. Hydroxychloroquine is used to push Zinc into cells, as many are deficient, Zinc needs to be given as well.

22762 ▶▶▶ djaustin, replying to Victoria, #246 of 1704 🔗

Find me one positive randomised placebo controlled trial for Vit C in any indication other than Vit C deficiency. You may be looking for a while. If the effects were so marked, we would all be taking it


22879 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to djaustin, #247 of 1704 🔗

You mean you’re not?

RCTs cost a lot of money. Nothing that won’t return a handsome profit will get through, if it’s even tested in the first place.

23087 ▶▶▶▶ Victoria, replying to djaustin, #248 of 1704 🔗

Interesting so many people fall into the trap that you can only take something that went through a randomised placebo controlled trail. That is what MSM / the drug companies want you to believe so that you can rather take drugs that do not treat the underlying cause or in the case of COVID, ‘there is nothing we can do to treat you, so unless your body pulls you through, you will be dead’.

Three Intravenous Vitamin C Research Studies Approved for Treating COVID-19 http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v16n12.shtml

“News of vitamin C research for COVID-19 is being actively suppressed Anyone saying that vitamin therapy can stop coronavirus is already being labeled as “promoting false information” and promulgating “fake news.” Even the sharing of verifiable news, and direct quotes from credentialed medical professionals, is being restricted or blocked on social media. You can see sequential examples of this phenomenon at my Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/themegavitaminman .

Indeed, the World Health Organization (WHO) has, literally, met with Google and Facebook and other media giants to stop the spread of what they declare to be wrong information. https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/02/14/facebook-google-amazon-met-with-who-to-talk-coronavirus-misinformation.html?__twitter_impression=true

Physician-directed, hospital-based administration of intravenous vitamin C has been marginalized or discredited. Scientific debate over COVID-19 appears to not be allowed.

Ironically, Facebook, blocking any significant users’ sharing of the news of approved vitamin therapy research, is itself blocked in China by the Chinese government. As for the internet, yes, China has it. And yes, it is censored. But, significantly, the Chinese government has not blocked this real news on how intravenous vitamin C will save lives in the COVID-19 epidemic. Here is the protocol as published in Chinese: http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v16n11-chi.shtml

Medical orthodoxy obsessively focuses on searching for a vaccine and/or drug for coronavirus COVID-19). While they are looking for what would be fabulously profitable approaches, we have with vitamin C an existing, plausible, clinically demonstrated method to treat what coronavirus patients die from: severe acute respiratory syndrome, or pneumonia”

23342 ▶▶▶▶▶ djaustin, replying to Victoria, #249 of 1704 🔗

Well I do take it and it did nothing for me. So based on an n=1 clinical trial, I am afraid it does not work. The magnitude of the majority of medical interventions in multiple diseases is only about 10%. Unequivocal medical interventions are not hard to find and would be obvious in multiple RCTs. You may take whatever you wish, but that’s not how medical science works, I am afraid. Otherwise homeopathy.

22168 ianp, replying to ianp, 9, #250 of 1704 🔗

Following the money, and the power… and I have to say that I agree wholeheartedly that the the BLM woke fascist riots and Coronaphobia are inextricably linked. After all, they are both based upon a huge lie, you could even say it’s not even opportunism, part of a plan?

The media are now flip flopping between so called ‘police brutality to protestors – really?!’ and then the pathetic little shits who decided to harangue some off duty squaddies quietly cleaning the graffiti of one of the statues in London. How they kept their cool I don’t know (doubtless because they knew they could break these idiots into pieces if they wanted)

I can see the venom and anger that is building in people online both with continuing covid lie, and the BLM rioting. It’s sadly bringing out some racism in some of my friends (usually quite passive), and any further escalation will really set things off horrifically.

I don’t like conspiracy theories, but everything seems to lead back to the USA, Trump, and the upcoming elections in November. The democrats really really don’t want him re-elected and are throwing everything at it.

As for the hilarious deification of career criminal, who better to denounce it than a prominent black woman. If any of you can bear going onto facebook, then go and find Candace Owens. Clear headed powerful stuff, and very simply : facts.

One thing has struck me though, given the lockdown restrictions are easing (and only going one way despite the likes of Sturgeon, Drake and assorted leftist goons), have they shot their load too soon…? Undoubtedly the aim will be for a ‘second wave’ in the Autumn but who, given a taste of freedom is going to stand for it being imposed again?

I do think it’s no coincidence that UK and USA are the last western democracies to be coming out of lockdown.

22170 ▶▶ John P, replying to ianp, 3, #251 of 1704 🔗

We’re coming out?

22182 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to John P, 6, #252 of 1704 🔗

Yeah, it’s going one way. The govt are throwing ridiculous bits out there there are meant to goad, bait but essentially be unenforceable.

Unless you are under the boot of Herr Krankie up there in Scotland it seems

The masks? 15th June ?? So the virus has is going to decide to take a break for 10 days before they enforce it, even when public transport is running now…?

That will change with ‘the science’

22258 ▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to ianp, 5, #253 of 1704 🔗

The recent antics of the goons in all the UK governments remind me of the last days of Robespierre and Saint-Juste.
Rants in the Assembly, becoming more hysterical and bloodthirsty day by day day.
Then collapse, flight, a farcical attempt at self-preservation, and the guillotine. Chop chop.
And there wasn’t much of a crowd watching and those that were chiefly grumbled about current price controls. They didn’t give a s… about their Great Leaders.

History repeats itself. With variations, but personally I see no reason to vary the guillotine.
Scotland has its own version, I believe.

22268 ▶▶▶▶▶ Old fred, replying to annie, 3, #254 of 1704 🔗

Like it! Can’t believe nothing is happening backstage with all this – How long has Boris got left? Ladbrokes apparently 7/2 gone by Xmas

22880 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Old fred, #255 of 1704 🔗

He’ll last so long?

22187 ▶▶ OKUK, replying to ianp, 3, #256 of 1704 🔗

On the news tonight I saw a white elderly BLM protestor knocked to the ground by Police in the USA. He was rendered unconscious on the pavement and left bleeding from the head profusely – the Police offered him no assistance, just left him there to bleed to death, quite possibly, given the copious amounts of blood.

Conclusion? The Police in the States have an equal opportunity approach which, though not to be applauded, should at least be recognised. However, the skin colour of the victim was not mentioned on the news.

The connection here with coronavirus is the willingness of our media to tell Big Lies, again and again.

22194 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to OKUK, 3, #257 of 1704 🔗

“Conclusion? The Police in the States have an equal opportunity approach which, though not to be applauded, should at least be recognised”

Exactly. The same is true of police shootings and killings.

The problem is, that creates endless opportunities for the antiracist liars to selectively misuse images and cases to push their agenda.

22517 ▶▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Mark, 5, #258 of 1704 🔗

Exactly…. misrepresentation. The police are in a complete mess over this.

However, that image of police officers ‘taking a knee’ in front of a baying crowd of wokist fascists is something that will make my blood boil over and over …. But I am wholly aware that this is what it is meant to do to people like me.

We are all being manipulated

22235 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to ianp, 5, #259 of 1704 🔗

“It’s sadly bringing out some racism in some of my friends”

Is it really racism, or just anti-anti-racism? Not the same thing IMO.

22329 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Barney McGrew, 5, #260 of 1704 🔗

You are correct that anti-antiracism is not racism. But the whole topic has been rendered almost impossible to discuss rationally by the zealotry and dishonesty of the antiracists. The term racism can mean anything from skinhead thuggery to just pointing out inconvenient facts.

Part of the problem with fetishising a word, as has been done to the term “racism”, is that it loses all meaning. In truth, either very few people are actually “racist” or “racist” covers a very large number of people and being moderately racist is not necessarily a particularly bad thing to be.

Antiracists, of course, want to have their cake and eat it on this. Racists are evil skinhead thugs when they want to establish how bad racism is, and racists are also people like Toby mentioning inconvenient crime stats, when they want to pretend racism is everywhere.

22398 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Barney McGrew, 1, #261 of 1704 🔗

No, it isn’t…. but when I hear a mate of mine say ‘Black c*nts’ what do you think that is? I quickly told him not to be manipulated, and to see that the vast majority of these BLM rioters were white… and then I would guess they are being agitated by the likes of Momentum, ANTIFA fascists, and the looney left in general

22496 ▶▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to ianp, 2, #262 of 1704 🔗

“…when I hear a mate of mine say ‘Black c*nts’ what do you think that is?”

If they said ‘black friends’, wouldn’t that be racism too? They’re using the language of the race baiters anti-racists (i.e. distinguishing between black and white because that’s what we’re told we must do. How else can we admit ‘white privilege’ etc.). And then they’re saying that some of them are c*nts.

I still say your friends may not be racists; they’re just singling some people out as c*nts, and using the classification system that they have been told is the ‘new progressive’.

22512 ▶▶▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Barney McGrew, 1, #263 of 1704 🔗

I got it, but doesn’t mean I liked what he said. I don’t think he is racist at all and yes, it was an angry response… like I said above his next response will probably be more even handed in it’s vitriol

22651 ▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Barney McGrew, 1, #264 of 1704 🔗

‘Male nurses’ ;P

Where is Winston?
Oh who cares he’s married

23075 ▶▶ Gabrielle Bauer, replying to ianp, #265 of 1704 🔗

Don’t forget Canada (especially Ontario, my province). We have both Trudeau and Ford working against us.

22175 Fed up, replying to Fed up, 30, #266 of 1704 🔗

Exemption from quarantine for those ‘transporting blood or human cells’?

Happy to confirm I carry both of those things with me at all times!

22188 ▶▶ AidanR, replying to Fed up, 6, #267 of 1704 🔗

It’s here that the phrase ‘bloodless bureaucrats’ really shows its intent.

22196 ▶▶ OKUK, replying to Fed up, #268 of 1704 🔗

NIce one Fed!

22206 ▶▶ coalencanth12, replying to Fed up, 3, #269 of 1704 🔗

We were musing in work that the exemptions include groups most vulnerable to the ‘Rona….

This is a joke…

22198 WhyNow, replying to WhyNow, 15, #270 of 1704 🔗

This is all really simple. Lockdown is only possible because the public sector is on full pay, even when not working.
If we were all on 80% pay, up to a maximum of £25k pa, then we would all have the same interest in balancing risk with the need to work. But we are not. The Treasury pulled a materstroke. They awarded the public sector 100% pay, while buying off the majority of the electorate with furlough. Meanwhile the actual tax-producing part of the population, a minority, can fend for themselves.
Its the revenge of the public sector against the “bankers” that caused their years of “austerity”.

22209 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to WhyNow, 4, #271 of 1704 🔗

This. Sadly the “bankers” are like five people stood atop a mountain of ordinary people with ordinary jobs, and you have to run through that mountain to “get” them.

Apparently they don’t care however.

22210 ▶▶ OKUK, replying to WhyNow, #272 of 1704 🔗

Well most workers in the public sector are still in work aren’t they? Which ones don’t you think are in work?

Nurses, doctors, hospital porters, police, prison staff, probation, social services, refuse collectors, parks maintenance, public and environmental health, traffic management or council housing management?

You might be thinking that people in leisure centres and the like are public sector workers but most these days work for the private sector. So “working in the public sector” doesn’t automatically translate to “public sector workers”.

Even teachers are having to provide online education platforms and school services for children of key workers. Are you suggesting they should have been furloughed?

22216 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to OKUK, 11, #273 of 1704 🔗

Lol all I can say is you’re very lucky if your kid has had a full roster of work from their teachers.

22223 ▶▶▶▶ OKUK, replying to Farinances, #274 of 1704 🔗

So you want them furloughed or not? Whether they are doing what they should be doing is a management issue.

22239 ▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to OKUK, 7, #275 of 1704 🔗

Indeed it is.

The problem being the management. Pretty sure most public sector workers aren’t scared of being fired, even if they treat working from home like a complete doss (because it’s pretty damn hard to fire them, quite frankly). Conversely, most private sector workers are fairly SURE they will get fired if they treat working from home like a doss.

Therein lies the difference.

22240 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Farinances, 9, #276 of 1704 🔗

And yes, I’d like them furloughed if they’re not working.

Also like to add most of the private sector is still working, but a lot of them are doing so on reduced pay.

22249 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ OKUK, replying to Farinances, -4, #277 of 1704 🔗

So you are going to furlough teachers, meaning they can’t provide care for children of key workers?Doesn’t get more stupid than that.

It’s absolutely clear that the greatest fall in employment has taken place in the private sector. So they are the ones dossing around.

A lot of workers in the public sector will be on reduced pay because of reduced overtime. Don’t they count?

I really can’t see why are you trying to drive a wedge between honest workers in the country you live in? What’s your motive?

22487 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to OKUK, 7, #278 of 1704 🔗

You have unmasked me, OKUK. My motive now lays bare, wide out in the open. I am indeed one of those disgusting individuals who dares to criticise the public sector.
I thank you for taking a break from your seal clapping in order to clutch your pearls on my behalf.

22883 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to OKUK, 3, #279 of 1704 🔗

So you are going to furlough teachers, meaning they can’t provide care for children of key workers?Doesn’t get more stupid than that.
Most teachers aren’t doing that! Many have been rostered to do one day a month, on full salary.

My son, private sector, has been working 12 hours per day on reduced salary.

Meanwhile, one of our contributors came across two teachers enjoying a lovely walk in the Lake District on Friday afternoon – on full salary.

22961 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Cheezilla, 1, #280 of 1704 🔗

Most of my mates (similar age) are working full time – but actually more hours as they no longer have that separation between the work environment and home environment. Many of them are on reduced pay (ranging from 60%-90% – how pissed off would you be if you were doing your full time job for 60% whilst someone on furlough gets 80?!). I’m lucky in that I’m on full pay and doing largely what I was doing before, only with a higher direct client workload because with Internet services / busy phonelines etc. Things are strained and in danger of breaking down more often.

22246 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ OKUK, replying to Farinances, -2, #281 of 1704 🔗

“Conversely, most private sector workers are fairly SURE they will get fired if they treat working from home like a doss.”

Never read such nonsense! Private sector workers have been far more likely to be dossing at home watching box sets or working on their abs, during lockdown, if only for the simple reason that their companies weren’t selling anything to anyone. It’s not rocket science!

You can’t have a civilised society without public sector workers and I totally reject this attempt to drive a wedge between workers in either sector. Why would anyone interested in the wellbeing of their society try to do that? That’s a typical globalist trick.

In any case lots of workers in the “private sector” are actually working in the public sector under contracts and lots of workers in the “public sector” are actually generating revenue in the free market.

22454 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to OKUK, 4, #282 of 1704 🔗

So someone who’s been dossing at home because they’re basically unemployed (….delayed….) is the same thing as someone who’s been dossing at home despite the fact they still have a job they should be doing from home?

22301 ▶▶▶▶▶ IanE, replying to OKUK, 2, #283 of 1704 🔗

Yup – best response is a Trump-like sack half of them!

22217 ▶▶▶ BobT, replying to OKUK, 13, #284 of 1704 🔗

And…..the small business owners, cafes , bars, self employed tradesmen, etc who form a large part of the economy and are most affected by this because their business has been destroyed, get….you guessed it…the square root of f**k all.

22226 ▶▶▶▶ OKUK, replying to BobT, #285 of 1704 🔗

Mmm…not true if they are self-employed. They will be getting the 80% up to a maximum.

But yes, going forward the lockdown madness will be causing untold misery as businesses fail.

22229 ▶▶▶▶▶ BobT, replying to OKUK, 25, #286 of 1704 🔗

But meanwhile, in the rest of the world…… I live on a little Caribbean Island which relies on tourism and here all our business and employment has collapsed because of the decisions made by UK and US politicians.

All cruise ship visits cancelled, no flights, everyone laid off from the hotels, no taxi business, construction industry finished, everyone out of work. There is no furlough scheme here, Social Security has run out of money so no benefits, no pensions, nada. And, ironically, we have no cases or deaths from this damned innoccuous virus.

And the UK’s new quarantine scheme is a proper kick in the gonads for us.

22250 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ OKUK, replying to BobT, 11, #287 of 1704 🔗

BobT –

You bring it back to the real.

We are told constantly that “BLM” but clearly BLs in the Caribbean don’t matter at all to the PC fanatics. They really couldn’t give a flying F.

The Caribbean nations are incredibly dependent on tourism. I don’t think I’ve seen one item on our virtue signalling MSM news about their plight.

We have every right to detest our lying media.

We should look at this globally…we need to manage it globally but WHO has totally failed the whole planet.

22254 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ BobT, replying to OKUK, 10, #288 of 1704 🔗

Thank you for your response but Its actually worse than I said.

The only way in or out of here is by air and the airport has been closed for months because all flights are cancelled. There are people with children who were at school overseas who cannot return.There are people who cannot come home along with people who cannot go home. If you need to fly out for emergency medical treatment, sorry, you cannot. If you need to go to a crucial business meeting, sorry you can’t

Luckily we are resilient. We have survived slavery and colonialism, major hurricanes, earthquakes and natural disaters. So we will survive. I myself have dug up my grass garden and planted veggies which, I have to brag, are doing very well!

I was listening today to our local phone in radio station and it seems that a lot of people have caught the Coronophobia here too. No logic, all emotion, yet as a I said before we presently have no cases of the virus. The reason for our people catching the Coronophobia virus is of course the western media which is pervasive everywhere.

I agree that the WHO has failed us all by its vagueness in policy and science which has exacebated this catastrophe.

22259 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to BobT, 4, #289 of 1704 🔗

Somebody in the DT yesterday made a simple point about air quarantine.
It’s impossible.
You aren’t allowed to stay in a private house, and all other accommodation is closed.

22281 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Sarigan, replying to annie, #290 of 1704 🔗

If you cannot provide an address, there are apparently going to be Govt. accommodations, probably airport hotels with guards.

22282 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to annie, 4, #291 of 1704 🔗

You aren’t allowed to stay in a private house” funnily enough I think you are. This page
explicitly talks about staying with friends or family, and the utterly mad part is THEY DON’T HAVE TO SELF ISOLATE. It’s almost as if the quarantine was not a serious measure to prevent a deadly virus but instead a box-ticking exercise designed to show the government is “doing something” and that the situation is “serious”. I think they are very worried about easing up too soon in case it looks like the whole thing was not necessary.
So a legal way to see your family with whom you do not normally live is to travel abroad and quarantine with them on your return!

22589 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Julian, 1, #292 of 1704 🔗

Oh sell. Insanity rules ok. As if we didn’t know.

22322 ▶▶▶▶▶ Victoria, replying to OKUK, 1, #293 of 1704 🔗

Unfortunately not all of them are eligible in “getting up to 80% up to a maximum”

According to Martin Lewis (MSE) “Chancellor said there will be a second (and crucially ‘final’ grant) for eligible self-employed people affected by coronavirus to cover Jun to Aug. This is something I, and others, have been pushing hard for, once it was announced furlough would last until Oct. Even though the amount’s at a slightly lower rate than the first, I’m delighted to see it happen, as at one stage chances were no better than 50-50. For a full briefing on this, including who’s eligible, watch the two 5 minute videos https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2020/04/self-employed-help-coronavirus/

In short:

  • The first grant is worth up to 80% of your trading profits
  • Grants are based on your profits over three tax years. This is based on an average of the tax returns for 2016/17, 2017/18 and 2018/19.
  • Your average trading profit must be less than £50,000/year (£50,000.01 and above won’t be able to get any support from this scheme.

Self-employed that rents shop/office space must continue paying for that as well as any other fixed costs.

22885 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to OKUK, #294 of 1704 🔗

Not true and not so simple. My friend is self-employed and on Universal Credit.

22838 ▶▶▶ GetaGrip, replying to OKUK, 2, #295 of 1704 🔗

“Having to provide on-line education platforms”….
Not exactly.
I provide the computer and the internet. My wife provides the supervision, as I’m at work. I’m not expecting a tax refund.
The teachers provide some homework on ‘Glow’.
As for actual ‘teaching’, I’ve not seen any yet.
Furlough would be a cheaper version of the same outcome.

Equally, furlough of Forestry and Land would be a cheaper result. Despite the fact that ‘outdoor work’ has now been permitted in Scotland by Kim Sturg-un, they’re undertaking maintenance of the woodlands and paths by psychic manifestation or something. To be fair they do appear from time to time to replace the ‘Car Park Closed’ signs, which seem to end up in bits due to the, umm, strong winds we’ve been having, I think.

To paraphrase Orwell:
All Animals Are Equal But Some Animals Are Just Lazy Bastards.

22300 ▶▶ IanE, replying to WhyNow, 3, #296 of 1704 🔗

Well, those years of “austerity” are going to seem like a rather pleasant picnic come October!

22364 ▶▶ Anthony, replying to WhyNow, #297 of 1704 🔗

Every public sector worker I know is on full pay but that’s because they’re all working full time as normal. Every single private sector employee I know is sat at home on full or 80% pay.

22495 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Anthony, 5, #298 of 1704 🔗

But the private sector employees on 80% are FURLOUGHED.
I completely agree that this is what’s making the government’s life exceptionally easy atm (in comparison to what it would be like if everyone had just been sacked straight out) but it also means …… about half? Let’s be pessimistic, are probably getting fired when furlough ends.
I’d say I’m pretty justified in thinking a public sector worker on full pay who (supposedly 😉 ) still works full time SHOULD have to do so (and be bloody grateful quite frankly).

Having said that my preferred course of action would have been to scrap furlough in June – because that would have forced people back to work. Trouble is the government can’t do that AND keep up the pretence that the non-deadly virus is in fact deadly by bringing in all their ridiculous 2m business operation rules
and mask bullshit. They’re in a constant trade off between image management and economic meltdown management.

I was thinking about this the other day actually re: massaging of death figures. It’s almost as if they realised almost straight away what a mistake they made with lockdown and instigated this very protracted ‘easing’ scheme from the very beginning. They needed a few months to build up the death figures to required ‘worse than everywhere else’ levels- which gave them the set level of risk to insist that the public still follow ‘protective’ measures far into the future whilst ‘easing’ occurs. So all the stupidity re: the rules feels like they don’t know what they’re doing, but actually they do.

It’s all a giant pantomime. Trouble is Punch is smacking Judy with a frying pan whilst the theatre burns.

22756 ▶▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Farinances, 1, #299 of 1704 🔗

Yes, it also seems to me that they put in place a ‘ramp’ from the start. The reason they seemed reluctant to bring in large scale testing was for no other reason than they needed to be able to ramp it up as required in order to create a false rise in cases when the time came. They also progressively ramped up the faking of the deaths by changing policies as time went on, rather than doing it all in one go. They are now moving away from deaths to ‘cases’ which means they can do it all by playing the testing like a Stradivarius.

22214 Farinances, 17, #300 of 1704 🔗

A little echo from me:

Thanks Toby
(thanks toby thanks toby)

You’re A Star
(you’re a star you’re a star)

As you may have been able to tell from my posts I’m extremely distrustful of the media (having worked in it for a good while before realising I basically hated everyone involved) but you have restored my faith that there are some people with integrity left in the business. The gulf between you and the rest of them has however never been wider – something I think the general public mostly already know but even those that didn’t will have been woken up somewhat by this circus. Only a few letters away from ‘crisis’ 😉

22221 Edgar Friendly, replying to Edgar Friendly, 1, #301 of 1704 🔗

Glad The Unabomber Manifesto is still available to buy, as it makes a lot of sensible points which are rather relevant to the situation we currently find ourselves facing:

” 12. Those who are most sensitive about “politically incorrect”
terminology are not the average black ghetto-dweller, Asian immigrant,
abused woman or disabled person, but a minority of activists, many of
whom do not even belong to any “oppressed” group but come from
privileged strata of society. Political correctness has its stronghold
among university professors, who have secure employment with
comfortable salaries, and the majority of whom are heterosexual, white
males from middle-class families.

30. We certainly do not claim that leftists, even of the
oversocialized type, NEVER rebel against the fundamental values of our
society. Clearly they sometimes do. Some oversocialized leftists have
gone so far as to rebel against one of modern society’s most important
principles by engaging in physical violence. By their own account,
violence is for them a form of “liberation.” In other words, by
committing violence they break through the psychological restraints
that have been trained into them. Because they are oversocialized
these restraints have been more confining for them than for others;
hence their need to break free of them. But they usually justify their
rebellion in terms of mainstream values. If they engage in violence
they claim to be fighting against racism or the like.

66. Today people live more by virtue of what the system does FOR them
or TO them than by virtue of what they do for themselves. And what
they do for themselves is done more and more along channels laid down
by the system. Opportunities tend to be those that the system
provides, the opportunities must be exploited in accord with the rules
and regulations [13], and techniques prescribed by experts must be
followed if there is to be a chance of success.

69. It is true that primitive man is powerless against some of the
things that threaten him; disease for example. But he can accept the
risk of disease stoically. It is part of the nature of things, it is
no one’s fault, unless is the fault of some imaginary, impersonal
demon. But threats to the modern individual tend to be MAN-MADE. They
are not the results of chance but are IMPOSED on him by other persons
whose decisions he, as an individual, is unable to influence.
Consequently he feels frustrated, humiliated and angry.

89. The same is true of scientists generally. With possible rare
exceptions, their motive is neither curiosity nor a desire to benefit
humanity but the need to go through the power process: to have a goal
(a scientific problem to solve), to make an effort (research) and to
attain the goal (solution of the problem.) Science is a surrogate
activity because scientists work mainly for the fulfillment they get
out of the work itself.

153. Thus control over human behavior will be introduced not by a
calculated decision of the authorities but through a process of social
evolution (RAPID evolution, however). The process will be impossible
to resist, because each advance, considered by itself, will appear to
be beneficial, or at least the evil involved in making the advance
will appear to be beneficial, or at least the evil involved in making
the advance will seem to be less than that which would result from not
making it (see paragraph 127). Propaganda for example is used for many
good purposes, such as discouraging child abuse or race hatred. [14]

162. The system is currently engaged in a desperate struggle to
overcome certain problems that threaten its survival, among which the
problems of human behavior are the most important. If the system
succeeds in acquiring sufficient control over human behavior quickly
enough, it will probably survive. ”

I can see why some people want it to be memory-holed.

22224 ▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to Edgar Friendly, #302 of 1704 🔗

The whole thing, is of course, also available for free in numerous locations online. No need to help fill Bezo’s galaxy-sized pockets.

And this film is well worth the time it takes to watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY6fb59XFbQ

22227 ▶▶ OKUK, replying to Edgar Friendly, 5, #303 of 1704 🔗

You don’t need to blow off people’s limbs to make that sort of statement do you? So I think it’s still best if we ignore what he had to say.

22283 ▶▶▶ John Smith, replying to OKUK, 3, #304 of 1704 🔗


I’ll tell you now.

If you you really want real change to come from this criminal act, you will have to be prepared to die for it.

It’s went that far.

22355 ▶▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to OKUK, 2, #305 of 1704 🔗

Blow people’s minds instead, man.

Like, yeah. Cool. Peace.

22222 Biker, replying to Biker, 9, #306 of 1704 🔗

i’m sick of all this stuff we’ve got to do for the “black community” There ain’t no black community there are only individuals.

22225 ▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to Biker, 2, #307 of 1704 🔗

Tell that to David Lammy

22298 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to Edgar Friendly, 1, #308 of 1704 🔗

But remember, words of one syllable will be required!

22279 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Biker, 3, #309 of 1704 🔗

Totally agree. While I think it is normal to want to categorise oneself and others, and put people into groups, it generally ends badly and it’s simply insulting to the people concerned as you’re basically implying they are not able to think for themselves. Jordan Peterson talks a lot of sense about the dangers of identity politics.

22231 Gossamer, replying to Gossamer, 3, #310 of 1704 🔗

A Scottish friend alerted me to this. It’s rendered me speechless.


22260 ▶▶ annie, replying to Gossamer, 7, #311 of 1704 🔗

Me too. Is ‘mass moronity’ a permitted expression?
The comments are pretty robust, hisever.

22537 ▶▶▶ Gossamer, replying to annie, 1, #312 of 1704 🔗

My favourite comment was “Are we paying for this?”

Key takeaway from that video: if your coronavirus-induced agoraphobia is causing you stress, it helps to look at a duckpond.

Right now, I’d rather throw myself in.

22889 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to annie, 1, #313 of 1704 🔗

I enjoyed several of the comments. There is hope out there …..

22280 ▶▶ John Smith, replying to Gossamer, #314 of 1704 🔗

They’re getting watched.

Make no mistake.

22297 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to John Smith, #315 of 1704 🔗

The commenters ?

22588 ▶▶ annie, replying to Gossamer, 4, #316 of 1704 🔗

BTW, I hope our Biker isn’t watching this, or he’ll have apoplexy and die of (officially) C19.
Biker, you have been warned?

22890 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Gossamer, 1, #317 of 1704 🔗

Good grief!!

22233 SRagdoll, replying to SRagdoll, 13, #318 of 1704 🔗

Now the WHO recommendeds we wear pointless face coverings!!

I try to stay away from the conspiracy side of things on lockdown, but its getting increasingly hard to not think that there isn’t more to this global luncany contagion.

22922 ▶▶ Shep, replying to SRagdoll, #319 of 1704 🔗

Look up ‘agenda 2030’

22234 Sally, replying to Sally, 18, #320 of 1704 🔗

Two metre regulation could be relaxed if Britain gets accustomed to wearing face masks in public places

Ministers hope that by forcing people to wear masks on public transport they will wear them elsewhere, removing the need for extra measures

How long is it going to take before people realise that this is all public-health theatre?

22241 ▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to Sally, 8, #321 of 1704 🔗

I think if they have not already realised this then they never will.

22278 ▶▶▶ John Smith, replying to Saved To Death, 6, #322 of 1704 🔗

They certainly will once the furlough bribe runs dry.

They’re gonna understand and they’re gonna understand good.

22284 ▶▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to John Smith, 5, #323 of 1704 🔗

Based on how people have reacted to what’s been done. I won’t be surprised if the people that still have jobs will think those who’ve lost their livelihoods were necessary casualties of this phoney war.

22302 ▶▶▶▶▶ Sally, replying to Nobody2020, 5, #324 of 1704 🔗

Of course. That’s why they (the MSM and other lockdown lovers) talk about job losses and other negative outcomes as being the result of the pandemic, NOT the result of the lockdown or other aspects of our response to the pandemic. These things are portrayed as unfortunate natural disasters.

22891 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Sally, #325 of 1704 🔗

One Whitehall source said: “If people start to see wearing a mask as the norm it makes it much easier to ask them to wear them in more places, and that would contribute towards being able to reduce the two-metre rule, though it might not be enough on its own.”

On its own?! What else can they have dreamed up for us?

I ventured into the comments section of the article. What I read there shows what we’re really up against!

22238 RDawg, replying to RDawg, 10, #326 of 1704 🔗

Has anyone seen the new Uber advert? All the NHS employees thanking their drivers for getting them to and from work “safely”. It is sickening. I want to throw a chair at the TV every time it comes on.

What are your top three annoying TV adverts at the moment? Here are mine.

1. Uber
2. Any of the main banks e.g. Nationwide
3. The Fairy Non Bio one with Vogue Williams

22242 ▶▶ stevie119, replying to RDawg, 3, #327 of 1704 🔗

They do make me want to be sick

22243 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to RDawg, 8, #328 of 1704 🔗

All the banks.

But then again, the bloody Lloyds advert with the horses “I will look after you” bullshit…. Has always been the most blood-boiling advert ever so couldn’t get much worse.

22251 ▶▶▶ OKUK, replying to Farinances, 1, #329 of 1704 🔗

I like the horses. They’re not spouting any virtue signalling PC nonsense about being together, community, identity. diversity etc Makes for a pleasant change I always think when they come on. OK there’s the “I will care for you” thing but banks are hardly going to advertise that they “won’t care for you”…even though that might be more accurate.

22267 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Farinances, 7, #330 of 1704 🔗

Agree. There’s also one on the radio with, I think, Imelda Staunton doing the voice-over: it’s cringeworthy in its insincerity. As you said the other day, Farinances, they’re there for you until you default on your mortgage and then it’s “piss off” Also can’t stand the ‘Stay Safe’ banner in the top corner of the t.v. screen – noticed it while watching a recorded programme the other day.

22245 ▶▶ OKUK, replying to RDawg, 7, #331 of 1704 🔗

Yes Nationwide is a major offender. I say that as a loyal Nationwide customer who thinks they are OK at managing money…wish they would stick to that!

I really hated that “How’s Your Health?” Nationwide ad on every 5 mins at the height of Covid ….one of those weirdo talking head would be “poets” that Nationwide obviously think warm the cockles of our hearts…but even they seem to have looked at the feedback and decided she was frightening too many children and so pulled the ad. 🙂 Also the ad had added sexism…”How’s your Mum?” was a major feature on the assumption that your Dad would not be on the scene. Dad didn’t even get mentioned!

22697 ▶▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to OKUK, #332 of 1704 🔗

Have just found it on youtube:
Oh my word, that is awful. And you have to pay a licence fee to watch this stuff? They should pay you.

22248 ▶▶ BobT, replying to RDawg, 8, #333 of 1704 🔗


Off topic, but congrats for making it to the front page. Just two points,

Prostitution, the oldest profession, is usually the last resort, got to, profession when there is no other way for a woman to support herself, her children and family. This lockdown has ironically screwed (metaphorically) this last resort profession and put them in immediate poverty.

I do however prefer your second suggestion of forming a company with both partners as employees because then they can claim the furlough money and get paid to vigorously bonk each other until October.

22347 ▶▶▶ RDawg, replying to BobT, 6, #334 of 1704 🔗

Hi Bob,

On reflection I realised that poking fun at prostitution may have caused division – it is a pretty horrific lifestyle, mostly for reserved for women being trafficked, trying to find a way out of poverty, or fuelling a drug addiction. I was aware this might have been perceived as being in poor taste. Sorry if this was the case. It was perhaps out of character for my usual style of post.

I was trying to make the point about the absurdity of the new government rules. That this government has de facto blanket banned any form of intimacy between two people not living in the same household, yet as long as it is for “work purposes” it can be justified as being legal.

22584 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to BobT, #335 of 1704 🔗

Surely they can offer online services?

22892 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to annie, #336 of 1704 🔗

Depends where/how they live?

22273 ▶▶ Ethelred the Unready, replying to RDawg, 6, #337 of 1704 🔗

Any which include an achingly politically correct ‘family unit’ which includes the obligatory ethnically diverse couple, where the woman is always white. Ironically this just reinforces stereotyping, but they just don’t see it…the over representation of BAME in advertising ‘just to be on the safe side’…cynical beyond belief

22277 ▶▶▶ John Smith, replying to Ethelred the Unready, 2, #338 of 1704 🔗

They do “see it”. It is quite intential.

22287 ▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to John Smith, 3, #339 of 1704 🔗

I would love to know the ratio of true believers to fellow travellers. My view is that it’s pretty small – I know lots of people with what one might term politically correct views that they hold quite sincerely, but they are mainly quite reactive – they don’t agressively, systematically pursue politically correct goals in their working or personal lives, they just go along with flow.

22276 ▶▶ Julian, replying to RDawg, #340 of 1704 🔗

They’ve been generally either nauseating or baffling for years, and they don’t seem to be aimed at me.

What little TV I watch tends to be recorded or on catch-up, so I simply fast-forward through the ads.

I don’t know why but I am reminded of the late Antonin Scalia talking about eras of excellence or otherwise: https://youtu.be/KvttIukZEtM?t=2539

22285 ▶▶ Sarigan, replying to RDawg, 1, #341 of 1704 🔗

The Virgin Media one with ‘We Built This City’ and loads of kids. 🤮

22296 ▶▶ IanE, replying to RDawg, #342 of 1704 🔗

I mostly use USB Record to save films (and rarely watch much else), so I can skip through the ads: saves grief (and TV sets!).

22303 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to RDawg, 9, #343 of 1704 🔗

None. I ceased watching live television back in February. I don’t even listen to radio stations that have any of the annoying government propaganda messages. I’ve unplugged the aerial – gave up on a Sky subscription three years ago – and now enjoy my entertainment in the form of Netflix, Amazon Prime, my own collection of music and lots of books 😊 I’ve always thought that if WW3 starts somebody will tell me. Though of course it already has – I think China have won without firing a missile.

22340 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to RDawg, 5, #344 of 1704 🔗

Thank God I don’t have a telly and I’ve stopped listening to Classic FM – the “we’re all in this together” adverts are infuriating and I want to throw my laptop out of the window everytime it came on.

22350 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Bart Simpson, 1, #345 of 1704 🔗

I tried earlier to bin my licence but they state that they want some sort of documentary evidence to prove why you don’t want it anymore (there wasn’t a “because I’m sick to the back-teeth of the doom-mongering and lies” option). Presumably, you just ignore this? Or have they deliberately made it more difficult because they realise there will be a wholesale chucking in of the licence?

22368 ▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to kh1485, 1, #346 of 1704 🔗

You can just ignore it. I’ve never had a telly so I always tick the “I don’t have a television” box.

22434 ▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Bart Simpson, 1, #347 of 1704 🔗

Thanks very much for this.

22396 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to kh1485, 5, #348 of 1704 🔗

Yes, they intentionally make it as inconvenient as possible, and any house that does not have a licence receives periodic letters threatening “action” and telling you that “an investigation has been opened”, and eventually if you are unlucky you might receive a visit from one of their goons.

The important thing is to systematically ignore them. Telling them anything, or replying at all, makes no difference. If they come to your door just tell them to get off your land and close the door in their face. They have no rights of access and any cock and bull story they tell you is just that.

The “Conservatives” were planning to reduce this harassment a bit by decriminalising the licence fee, but seem to have gone quiet about that with the BBC being such a useful propaganda arm during the coronapanic. Hopefully relations are gradually returning to normal and this government might eventually at least achieve something useful on this, in due course.

22447 ▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Mark, #349 of 1704 🔗

Thanks very much for this. I wondered if I was just seeing reds under the bed on this or whether it was usual for them to make it as bloody difficult as possible!

22898 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Mark, #350 of 1704 🔗

If they rock up at the house, can you politely ask them to come back in full hazmat gear?

22896 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to kh1485, 1, #351 of 1704 🔗

I’ve just refused to renew mine. There’s a form to fill in online where you can declare that you’re dead or that you don’t watch live tv or iplayer. There were dire threats about house visits but I told the truth so we’ll see where that goes.

22352 ▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to RDawg, 4, #352 of 1704 🔗

Honestly, get rid of your TV. I gave mine up ten years ago. What have I missed? Not much, and nothing that I would even consider pay ten years of licence fees for.

22900 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Mike Smith, 1, #353 of 1704 🔗

I have a tv but it isn’t connected to an aerial, so can’t receive live tv. I just get Prime stuff via a firestick. No adverts – bliss! Don’t watch much anyway.

Of course, anyone with a smartphone or computer can receive live and streamed tv, so any goon spotting the tv through my window and kicking up a fuss about it would be missing the point.

22252 rodmclaughlin, replying to rodmclaughlin, 3, #354 of 1704 🔗

Remember when all the politicians and talking heads were telling us we had to listen to the allegedly unanimous opinion of public health experts that nothing, literally NOTHING, was more important that social distancing to prevent the spread of coronavirus? “

Yes, but times change. That was then. This is now.

22253 ▶▶ rodmclaughlin, replying to rodmclaughlin, 1, #355 of 1704 🔗

PS. I’m not being sarcastic – I mean it. The times they have a-changed.

22413 ▶▶▶ Bella, replying to rodmclaughlin, 2, #356 of 1704 🔗

How have they changed? You mean changed as in got worse? Because the social distancing fascists have multiplied.

22265 Ethelred the Unready, 12, #357 of 1704 🔗

The woke, keening, hand wringing, virtue signalling left are fine with hypocrisy, it’s what they do

22269 Ethelred the Unready, replying to Ethelred the Unready, 21, #358 of 1704 🔗

So, (I hate the habit of beginning every sentence with the word “So”) but thought I’d give it a go…So, yesterday evening we had a visit to our home by a local couple (Dorset coastal town, no hotbed of infection) who we have been very good friends with for nearly 20 years. I knew the chap has woke lefty tendencies, which I have tried to ignore over the years, but the level of lockdown zealotry and Covid terror was something to behold.
They arrived for a drink and a chat, but only because they felt the lockdown restrictions had now been eased sufficiently to allow this (for weeks they have been self isolating, despite being relatively young, fit and healthy)
Their insistence was to arrive via our side passage, and to refuse any contact, nor come within 2 metres of us (the female half actually did the ‘shy away’ thing when I walked past), they insisted on sitting outside, refusing to enter the house, brought their own good, drinks and glasses and when it got too cold to sit outside, remained doing do, whilst we sat in our conservatory, conversing through an open door. In the end my patience grew very thin and I pretty well sent them home.
i am annoyed, irritated and quite insulted, however if it has taken this Covid bollock5 to expose their true tendencies, perhaps I have received a favour.
i dread to think what Thursday night at 8pm looked like at their hose. My wife told me off for threatening to instigate a Thursday at 8 taking of the knee from this week onwards.

22274 ▶▶ WhyNow, replying to Ethelred the Unready, 6, #359 of 1704 🔗

Are they on full pay? That’s the key question.

22275 ▶▶ John Smith, replying to Ethelred the Unready, 6, #360 of 1704 🔗

You get them out your life asap.

22293 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Ethelred the Unready, 9, #361 of 1704 🔗

Yes, it is truly depressing how easily the weak-minded have been brainwashed by the government and media. Those of my acquaintance are nearly all Labour-voters too, something else that has at times strained relations. Indoctrination at the hands of teachers is doubtless a big part of the tragedy!

22317 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Ethelred the Unready, 4, #362 of 1704 🔗

I think it takes situations like this to show people’s true colours. On social media, I have my suspicions confirmed when I few people I know outed themselves as virtue signalling, holier-than-thou Pharisees.

22464 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Bart Simpson, 6, #363 of 1704 🔗

They’ve all been ‘unfriended’ by me. Good riddance. Now that’s what I call ‘social distancing’

22432 ▶▶ Suitejb, replying to Ethelred the Unready, 10, #364 of 1704 🔗

That’s so sad. And infuriating. We had 2 good friends round last weekend. We hugged. They stayed the night!

22552 ▶▶▶ Ethelred the Unready, replying to Suitejb, 7, #365 of 1704 🔗

I have refused utterly to be drawn into this ridiculous lockdown, nor to observe any of the increasingly ridiculous ‘rules’ (it’s as though someone in a dark room is making stuff up to see if they can get the Sheeple to conform “I know, let’s tell them to stand on one leg and trump the Marseillaise, see if the daft buggers will do that”), I always wanted to be Maverick in Top Gun…

22902 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Ethelred the Unready, 1, #366 of 1704 🔗

Earlier this week, friend stayed for hours, chatting in my sitting room. (Legally we should have been in the garden but it was a hot day and my sofas are more comfy than garden chairs.) As she was leaving I pointed out that we’d been breaking the law, which had sneakily been changed at the weekend. She gave me a huge hug and said we’ll have to do it again soon.

Another friend, who lives at a distance, told me she was visited (outside and distanced) by someone who brought their own cup. She didn’t seem to think that was weird or OTT.

23599 ▶▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to Cheezilla, #367 of 1704 🔗

“… who lives a distance”.
Well, she would!

22288 David Mc, replying to David Mc, 9, #368 of 1704 🔗

It is easy to get depressed at the moment, but I agree with Toby that the tide does now seem to be starting to turn. The Telegraph is doing sterling ‘lockdown sceptic’ work, and the other dailies are getting there (even if the Guardian is still some way off). It helps that the number of deaths is coming down, but I also think the general public are starting to intuit that this disease isn’t as serious as it has been cracked up to be. Now when I am out and about I very rarely see face masks, and 2m social distancing is more or less dead – the only time people actually bother doing it is when queuing to enter a supermarket. My wife and I have also been viewing houses to buy, and of the half-dozen or so we’ve entered, not a single person has bothered wearing a mask or insisting we wear one, and none have shown any interest in social distancing.

I’ve also noticed friends with little kids are now perfectly happy to meet up with us and let their kids play. Again, there’s no social distancing going on.

We will get back to the old normal sooner or later and I have faith that oppressive government can’t fundamentally change human nature. We’re social animals. If anything, making face masks on public transport mandatory is confirmation that the government are flailing around for something to do in order to prevent ordinary life from reasserting itself. It will fail to do this and will face facts fairly soon.

22580 ▶▶ annie, replying to David Mc, 2, #369 of 1704 🔗

Well said, Dave. You do see Covizombies, but there are lots of human beings around and they will win out in the end.
Never forget, never forgive, but above all, NEVER despair.

22638 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to David Mc, 3, #370 of 1704 🔗

Agree. They will have to do a U turn when unemployment really hits high levels (various estimates have it at 6m minimum and 8-10m maximum) and more businesses close.

It will be interesting to see how many stores which reopen on the 15th will close again never to reopen as people shun them due to the antisocial distancing measures and tightening of belts.

22289 TJN, replying to TJN, 19, #371 of 1704 🔗

Toby writes: ‘I can feel the tide beginning to turn and eventually it will become a tsunami that sweeps away political leaders and top officials across the world.’

One of the most cheery things I’ve read in a long while.

Can it really be true ??? God, I hope so.

22290 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to TJN, 5, #372 of 1704 🔗

I hope he’s right with all my heart. Thank you for such positivity. We need that right now.

22292 ▶▶ IanE, replying to TJN, 2, #373 of 1704 🔗

I was beginning to think so – and then I carelessly watched a bit of BBC news this morning. Not much sign there.

22294 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to TJN, 4, #374 of 1704 🔗

I hope so too. I don’t see much evidence of it where I live though, in fact people seem even more entrenched in their lockdown-is-good stance …

22307 ▶▶ matt, replying to TJN, 19, #375 of 1704 🔗

I don’t see it. Up until yesterday, I had convinced myself that the government was trying to gradually calm the population down so that things could be relaxed and I was beginning to feel optimistic that there was some glimmer of hope. And then Hancock stood at the lectern yesterday and talked about “this awful” disease to discourage weekend protests. And now I just can’t see it.

The completely consistent “aaaagh, we’re all going to die and must stay behind our sofas for ever!!!” message in the MSM has changed very slightly, so that the occasional voice of mildest dissent is allowed in a couple of publications, but nobody is doing anything like enough to present the straightforward fact – which is that this virus can be unpleasant in a small number of cases, and can kill you if you’re very sick anyway or very, very, very unlucky, but basically, the bovine public is still being led by the nose into believing that the Black Death is stalking the streets and that they must remain imprisoned for their own good. Until that changes, nothing will change.

22314 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to matt, 8, #376 of 1704 🔗

Well the news is reporting that the R number in some parts of the country may be slightly above 1 and therefore we’re all in imminent danger again. Keeping up the fear factor.

22443 ▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Nobody2020, 4, #377 of 1704 🔗

Yes. That was one of the things that threw my into despair this morning.

22445 ▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to matt, #378 of 1704 🔗

Me not my. Sorry.

22514 ▶▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to Nobody2020, 12, #379 of 1704 🔗

My blood boiled when I saw that reported in the MSM. I think it’s disgusting how the government have weaponised a mathematical model, whose variables and processes are too complex for the public to properly understand, in order to stoke fear and make it seem like we’re all in imminent danger.

22909 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Poppy, 1, #380 of 1704 🔗

Whether they can understand it or not doesn’t matter. The R number is basically irrelevant, so a false (and unprovable) target.

23019 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to Poppy, 1, #381 of 1704 🔗

And which we have no means of checking for ourselves, so we have no idea if what they’re saying is true or not.
They might as well be telling us how the war is going against Eurasia.

22400 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to matt, 7, #382 of 1704 🔗

I suspect there are some ministers who are really enjoying this (Hancock probably one of them) as a chance to “make a difference” and order people about more than usual, without getting ignored.

I also suspect there are others who know this is a blunder and would prefer to get back to more normal times, but at present can’t speak up too loudly.

What we have to hope is that as soon as public opinion shifts, as it may do for various reasons, those who want to get back to normal will have the courage to drive it through.

A crucial thing is where does the PM fit into this. My guess is that he will follow public opinion.

22668 ▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Julian, 4, #383 of 1704 🔗

PM? Is that the one who hides from the electorate and now only appears at online GAVI meetings to promise £1.7 billion of our plentiful money towards Gates’ vaccine fund?

22912 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Julian, 1, #384 of 1704 🔗

I’m not sure this is a blunder. It seems to have been well-orchestrated across the globe, even down to the vocabulary. The WHO is now playing the change-the-tune-with-the-wind game too.
Boris is a natural at playing the idiot, so it’s easy to believe he’s blundered. Misdirection.

22408 ▶▶ Bella, replying to TJN, #385 of 1704 🔗

Yeah, when I read that I thought, oh well poetic licence. I can’t see a tsunami sweeping Johnson anywhere except to the bullshit congratulations podium where he claims lockdown saved half a million lives ref Ferguson). Also isn’t Toby a Johnson fan (if not a mate)? He’s certainly a Tory. Why would he want them swept away?

22425 ▶▶▶ TJN, replying to Bella, 8, #386 of 1704 🔗

I don’t know what Toby’s current views on Johnson are – he was certainly a keen supporter once, but perhaps he’s thought again. As I wrote here a day or two ago, I don’t see how anyone can be a lockdown sceptic and still support this government.

My problem with Johnson et al is not that they are Tories, or any other creed, it is their utter incompetence.

And I think Johnson has been politically fatally damaged by this – I may be wrong, but time will tell.

22510 ▶▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to TJN, 11, #387 of 1704 🔗

I’d love nothing more than to see him gone by Christmas. I have always been disgusted by the Johnson government and I don’t see them as true Conservatives, only populists. Someone on here said that we’ll never be able to move on from the Covid era as long as Johnson is in office but politics is so broken now that I wouldn’t be surprised if he stayed. It may well be that the government spin the narrative that the economic devastation and untold human misery we will suffer down the line was ‘because of the pandemic’ rather than their cack-handed and immensely damaging policy approach to it, therefore absolving Johnson of responsibility.

22528 ▶▶▶▶▶ Steve, replying to Poppy, 13, #388 of 1704 🔗

The virus was going to hit us whatever we did, but their monstrous decimation of the economy is unforgivable. Being an almost lifelong Conservative voter and Johnson fan it has been a very unsettling revelation to me, at this point I will not be voting for them again because of what they’ve done. People may say ‘but Labour would be worse’, it’s hard to imagine anything worse, it’s an utter pigs-ear.

23025 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to Steve, #389 of 1704 🔗

I entirely agree. I voted against my better judgement for the Conservatives in 2017, and that made May’s disgusting behaviour harder to bear.
I didn’t make the same mistake again in 2019 and so watching this appalling farce is not as bad as it would have been otherwise.
Labour might destroy what’s left of the country even more quickly than the Tories, but I would like to see it not destroyed at all. So I will take the risk and vote for someone else. We’ll see who when the time comes.

23390 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Adam, replying to Steve, #390 of 1704 🔗

I feel the same; lifelong Tory voter and initially a Johnson fan, but not anymore. I don’t think I shall ever forgive them for this, but I could never vote Labour either. So at the next election I shall ruin my ballot paper and write on it what I thought of this lockdown.

22597 ▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Poppy, 7, #391 of 1704 🔗

I think once Brexit is done he has to go. Ditto Cummings and Hancock.

22735 ▶▶▶▶▶ TJN, replying to Poppy, 6, #392 of 1704 🔗

I had muted hopes of this Johnson government, after the weakness and division of recent years. I’ve had it with him now. Maybe, as Bart says, he needs to stay till the end of the year and Brexit, and then off to the lecture circuit (not that anyone will find him funny anymore, and I never did).

The mention of Brexit makes me think. I have been most struck by Lord Sumption through these trials – his razor intelligence, clarity of thought and expression, and historical knowledge. But Sumption, so we are told, voted remain. I voted leave, but it does bother me that people like him thought otherwise – Ken Clarke is another one who makes me think again.

Now three of the five people mostly responsible for the fiasco of the last three months – Johnson, Gove, and Cummings – were also the driving force behind the Leave campaign. They now have no intellectual credibility. Dealing with covid-19 wasn’t, in its essentials, a complex task. It meant clarity of thought and the courage to hold their nerves and see it through. But they’ve failed utterly.

I just can’t see that they’re up to dealing with Brexit, or even running the proverbial whelk stall for that matter.

22744 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to TJN, 3, #393 of 1704 🔗

Sigh. I’ve voted conservative in every election since I’ve been able to vote (and the first was the 1997 Blair landslide). I’m not a member and would never join a political party, but there it is.

I voted remain, but that was purely because I feared the short term economic consequences of leaving. I thought at the time – and still do – that long term, not being in the EU was the right way to go.

I’ve always been broadly supportive of Johnson. I liked him as Mayor, I was pleased when he won the Leadership and over the moon at the last election result (I watched the results on my ipad from a hotel lobby in Seattle. There’s a trip I won’t be making any time soon).

I’m now appalled at incompetence and the level of failure.

I don’t know how I’ll vote next time. I can’t vote for this lot, but given that Labour’s message throughout has been “lockdown, but harder, faster, longer”, I can’t vote for them either.

One positive, I suppose: for all the people complaining about the economic disaster of Brexit – it’s an irrelevance now. If you’re going to drive the economy to the bottom of a lake, you might as well drive it off a cliff first.

22817 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to matt, 5, #394 of 1704 🔗

I am pretty sure that the people complaining about the economic disaster of Brexit are the same people who support lockdown indefinitely and who think the BLM riots/protests are more important than businesses going bust. They have no grasp of economic reality. It’s all feelings with them.

22911 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ STEVE, replying to Mike Smith, #395 of 1704 🔗

Wrong – I voted remain and I also oppose lockdown

Both are an economic car crash

23086 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Victoria, replying to matt, #396 of 1704 🔗

Agree Labour is pathetic at this stage, they are not fit to be opposition as you do not see any opposition.

23026 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to TJN, #397 of 1704 🔗

Dealing with covid-19 wasn’t, in its essentials, a complex task. It meant clarity of thought and the courage to hold their nerves and see it through.

23047 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ TJN, replying to Mike Smith, 1, #398 of 1704 🔗

Thanks. I don’t recall this being said anywhere else, but it seems to me a very important point which should not be forgotten.

22306 Awkward Git, replying to Awkward Git, 23, #399 of 1704 🔗

Got bored so sent this to Boris Johnson via the contact no 10 website:

“Each and every day more and more science by leading independent researchers show the “coronavirus” was not as dangerous as we were lead to believe, that it is weakening and dying out, that causes of deaths on death certificates have been stating a false cause of death, that Government’s official policies maximised infections and deaths of the most at risk, that the “coronavirus” is very selective and the vast majority of people are not at risk, that wearing of masks will probably cause more harm than good in both the short and long term, that your “science” you say you are following does not match the reality, that the Government is illegally suggesting that guidelines and announcements are law when they are not and basically there is no justification now, nor ever has been, for the wilful and deliberate imprisonment of the population, the social and economic destruction of this country’s and the world’s economies so one question – WHY CONTINUE WITH THE FARCE?”

Won’t do any good but made me a bit happier to annoy authority.

And now some backbench MPs are protesting the 14 day quarantine rules – why won’t they and why haven’t they protested against anything put to now? And why now and over this?

Hypocrites and rats leaving the sinking ship trying to look good for when/if it all falls apart they can say “see we were with you guys all along” is what I think.

Screw ’em, never forgive, never forget, never bother vote for them.

22310 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Awkward Git, 7, #400 of 1704 🔗

I sent Johnson a copy of “We Never Make Mistakes” last week. It may have some effect on the people who open the post at no. 10, at least.

23168 ▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to JohnB, 2, #401 of 1704 🔗

That’s why I sent this message and others. It may not get to Boris the idiot but may make an indent in the thinking of whoever picks the e-mails he reads.

Trying to get through to a politician is like pushing a balloon through wet cement – hard work, very tricky, if you push too hard it will burst but big you do it right you make a lasting impression that hardenes.

23130 ▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to Awkward Git, 1, #402 of 1704 🔗

Excellent post.

22312 Nobody2020, replying to Nobody2020, 6, #403 of 1704 🔗

It’s starting. Sky News reporting on how HIV could be eradicated because of all this. Wholly expect more good news stories over time to come to airbrush out the damage that has been caused.

22331 ▶▶ matt, replying to Nobody2020, 5, #404 of 1704 🔗

Er… how? HIV is an incurable transmissible disease that an infected person will have for the rest of their lives. Or is the argument that they’re just going to keep us locked up and unable to have sex with anyone we don’t live with until we’re all dead?

22349 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to matt, 1, #405 of 1704 🔗

I didn’t give it my full attention but it was along the lines of stopping people who don’t know they’re infected spreading it. So yes, no sex please we’re British.

22359 ▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Nobody2020, 3, #406 of 1704 🔗

Oh, Jesus.

22316 Bart Simpson, replying to Bart Simpson, 16, #407 of 1704 🔗

The Times reported that Sunday trading laws would be suspended for a year in order to kick start the economy – why only a year? This antiquated law is long overdue for a reform.

I digress. What was both funny and infuriating about the article was that it doesn’t address the elephant in room – social distancing. If shops are forced to limit the number of people in their premises together with the ludicrous 2m rule, one way systems, queues, lack of facilities and mask requirements then that would put customers off. I for one will not go into a shop that forces me to go through all of the above.

Not to mention that with our economy tanking we will have less money to spend anyway.

22318 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to Bart Simpson, 10, #408 of 1704 🔗

I won’t either. At this rate though, the only shop I will be able to go into will be my own!

22321 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to kh1485, 2, #409 of 1704 🔗

Agree. It will be online for me or make do without.

22624 ▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to kh1485, 5, #410 of 1704 🔗

Wish we could all come to your place for coffee!

22695 ▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to CarrieAH, 6, #411 of 1704 🔗

So do I! Crap day today due to the weather. Sneaky few people using our indoor tables though 😉 I am sorry, but there is no way I am going to enforce the takeaway thing on the elderly or disabled. I’m just not. If they are happy to take the ‘risk’, then I am happy to accomodate them.

22853 ▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to kh1485, 4, #412 of 1704 🔗

Good on yer. If you get fined let us know and we will stump up, supposing you feel inclined to pay, which I certainly wouldn’t. You are a credit to this contemptible little nation.

22915 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to kh1485, 1, #413 of 1704 🔗

Bless you for that. Fingers crossed no-one snitches on you.

22319 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Bart Simpson, 3, #414 of 1704 🔗

And less shops to go to. I gather that even Victoria’s Secret (so a friend told me) has gone bust (sic!).

22332 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to IanE, #415 of 1704 🔗

It has. Another one bites the dust:


22813 ▶▶▶ DressageRider, replying to IanE, 1, #416 of 1704 🔗

To be fair, they were actually having a lot of problems anyway, sales going down for some time I think, but I am not crying if they fold, except I feel for the peeps who work for them.

22323 ▶▶ JME, replying to Bart Simpson, 8, #417 of 1704 🔗

Was saying exactly this morning having read The Telegraph- they’re trying to bring in face masks by the back door. Definitely won’t be going anywhere that involves wearing a mask (except I have to when seeing patients though I feel this is just perpetuating the idea that we are still at high risk & wish I could unilaterally stop it!)

22437 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to JME, 1, #418 of 1704 🔗

Mason Mills on Twitter (who is either Cummings or someone close to him) posted as far back as 3rd April that ‘mask advice will change’. When someone asked him how long we would have to wear masks Mason joked (grrr) that they would be a good Christmas present. So masks have been in the government’s plans for some while…

22928 ▶▶▶▶ Shep, replying to Carrie, #419 of 1704 🔗

probably runs on a grid calendar system, it’sall planned out in advance)

22330 ▶▶ matt, replying to Bart Simpson, 25, #420 of 1704 🔗

I’m sorry to say that I’m having one of those days when I despair of there being any way out of this. The government, the media, the unions (including the BMA, for crying out loud) have all bought into this fiction. I don’t see how they can even begin to back down and start changing the message without a loss of face that they are never going to be prepared to swallow.

Taken out of context (as it has been), 50,000 deaths (I doubt we’ll hit that, but we’ll come close) looks like a big number and the public are being told it is a reason to be frightened. How can you convince them that it is in fact a minor blip in the statistics without it looking like an image crippling climb down? And even with that kind of climb down, nobody is going to believe it, because nobody wants to believe they’ve been taken for a fool.

2M social distancing is here to stay, stupid and destructive as it is. Masks are here to stay – once they say that everybody must wear them in public at all times (and they will) anybody who isn’t wearing one will be treated like a plague rat in public. And for the rest of time, the economy will be sclerotic, we’ll be surrounded by mass unemployment and social resentment and all of the things that used to make life worthwhile (pubs, restaurants, cinemas, theatres, amusement parks, zoos, holidays.. oh, everything) will either be joyless and miserable, or gone.

Honestly, what’s the point? What do they even pretend to think they’re “saving” us _for_?

22343 ▶▶▶ Old fred, replying to matt, 8, #421 of 1704 🔗

Am a bit more optimistic having skipped through The Times online just now. It seems the message is finally getting through to govt about the economic disaster soon to arrive with compulsory redundancies ready to rocket. Problem of 2m – Sunak and biz secretary seem to be getting upper hand cos of effect on hospitality industry. Quarantine and face masks also heavily criticised and fair few comments about Boris not up to the job.

22344 ▶▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Old fred, 5, #422 of 1704 🔗

It’s been pretty good going in the Telegraph Online too recently. Lots of positive anti-lockdown comments and articles. It’s the only reason I read it, to try to keep my spirits up!

22390 ▶▶▶▶▶ Nic, replying to CarrieAH, 1, #423 of 1704 🔗

Just signed up dont look at those rags the mail and express any more and that is also good for my mental health

22622 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Nic, 1, #424 of 1704 🔗

I don’t really like or enjoy any MSM, but at the moment I need to keep an eye on what is happening with airline travel, and the Telegraph seems the best bet right now. It is also pretty sceptical about the whole government handling of this virus – which helps! Plus I like the travel articles.

22357 ▶▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Old fred, 7, #425 of 1704 🔗

I’m sure the government have always been aware of the economic impact, how could they not be. Everything now seems like a face saving exercise to me.

They created this mess using the virus as an excuse, but make no mistake it’s their making. Maybe at the start they had some justification and could be forgiven for the actions taken. But continuing now means that they are responsible for everything that comes of it.

22391 ▶▶▶▶▶ Nic, replying to Nobody2020, 2, #426 of 1704 🔗

The economy will win out give it a few months things will be very different

22916 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Nic, #427 of 1704 🔗

The ordinary people will be the losers though.

22360 ▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Old fred, 7, #428 of 1704 🔗

A bit worrying though if the message is only finally getting through to Sunak and Sharma now. Even with my crappy grade in ‘A’ level economics, I could have told ’em that months ago!

22640 ▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to kh1485, 3, #429 of 1704 🔗

I think Sunak already knew from the beginning but if he’s a lone voice then he won’t make much headway. A lot of this is timing unfortunately, I’d like to think he’s very much aware of the figures and how this is costing us dear.

22917 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Bart Simpson, 2, #430 of 1704 🔗

Don’t forget how Sunak got the post. He agreed to be a puppet because Javid refused.

22388 ▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Old fred, 2, #431 of 1704 🔗

That’s good because the first few comments I saw on The Times were from the usual bedwetters and Karens who were still going on and on about infections and that we’re doomed.

22376 ▶▶▶ Geoff Townley, replying to matt, 5, #432 of 1704 🔗

I couldn’t have put it better, our children’s future is going to be ruined , because some people died, many of whom had health and or weight issues, the best defence is to keep fit and healthy. I’m beginning to believe some if the conspiracy theories.

22402 ▶▶▶ Bella, replying to matt, 7, #433 of 1704 🔗

I posted a Twitter link of Paris a couple of says ago with video of people enjoying cafe culture and mingling with barely any face masks and no social distancing. If face masks etc became mandatory while we perceived that the rest of Europe was pretty relaxed about it I think there may be a revolution as we will, finally!, get that we’ve sleepwalked into totalitarianism. If they’re not dropping like flies in Europe then why are we adopting these measures? Vive la revolution!

22444 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Bella, 5, #434 of 1704 🔗

Exactly – here in Sweden no one is mentioning masks – have seen a few people wearing them, but mostly people of other ethnicities, or elderly people, or people who look very obviously sick or disabled. And mask-wearers are few and far between here.

22446 ▶▶▶ Graham, replying to matt, 3, #435 of 1704 🔗

I agree. I am starting to think that England is not my country any more. Last year my wife and I sold our big house, because our children have now grown up, banked the money, and started renting in a very beautiful area with the intention of buying when something good came up. But the joy of living here has turned to ashes. I can’t go to the local town and browse round the antique shops and second hand bookshops. We can’t eat and drink at the many good pubs and restaurants. We can’t have our friends to stay. I go walking and cycling a lot, and that’s great, but it’s not enough. We have started thinking about buying a small house in Switzerland or Sweden, which are two countries we like and have some connection with, rather than spending our money here. I realise we are lucky to have the choice. In theory we should be enjoying ourselves but nothing seems to have any savour any more. And I’ll be damned if I ever wear a mask.

22577 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to matt, 2, #436 of 1704 🔗

Go take a calming walk, you need it, my lad! This will end. Trust.

22626 ▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to matt, 9, #437 of 1704 🔗

Distancing certainly seems to go out of the window when the ice cream van is parked up by the lake here 😂 I’ve just driven past, and there are up to 30 people mingling around the van, no sign of distancing at all and not a mask in sight. I know it’s outdoors, and therefore people will have been told it’s safer, but it does gladden the heart to see folk behaving normally.

22918 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to CarrieAH, 2, #438 of 1704 🔗

Cash sales too!

22814 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to matt, #439 of 1704 🔗

Very negative Matt. Are you the BBC in disguise ? 🙂

22342 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Bart Simpson, 10, #440 of 1704 🔗

I won’t be going into any shop that forces antisocial distancing or mask wearing. However, “force” is the keyword there. I understand they all have to go along with regulations otherwise they will get shut down. However, our local garden centre does this well. The marks on the floor and one way system are all in place, but when the girl hands you a sterilised trolley and explains about the one way system, she does it with a grin on her face and a wink at the end. More power to her! Once inside, the one way system is forgotten, everyone meanders round as normal, and there’s a nice relaxed atmosphere. No masks. Checkout it a bit regimented but again nobody is really taking it seriously and there was a lot of laughter. I will go there again and again. But I won’t go in any shop that is forcing the regulations.

22345 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to CarrieAH, 8, #441 of 1704 🔗

Agree – its all the “we have to be seen to be doing something” the shops I’ve been to have been paying lip service but the ultimate test will be come 15 June when the others reopen.

I came across a comment in a website where many restaurants in Portugal which had reopened had closed again this time for good as the antisocial distancing, queuing and mask wearing was putting people off.from dining at their establishments.

22919 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to CarrieAH, 1, #442 of 1704 🔗

I like the sound of your garden centre. Hopefully the Karens will be too busy adjusting their masks to notice the wink.

22348 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Bart Simpson, 2, #443 of 1704 🔗

Note that vast sums of “money” have been pumped out because of this crisis. In theory that means there is a lot more money that could be circulating.

However the important point to note is how that money is distributed. Most of it has found it’s way to the top of the ladder. I liken it to a wedding scramble ( https://www.royalscotsclub.com/scottish-wedding-traditions/ ) only the money is kept by the adults and never thrown for the kids to pick up.

22385 ▶▶ Nic, replying to Bart Simpson, 3, #444 of 1704 🔗

Agree if it is not removed at least 6 million unemployed by the end of the year

22411 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Nic, 10, #445 of 1704 🔗

Probably even more than that. Norman Lamont made the point that hospitality and retail are the biggest employers and income generators in this country. If they persist with this lockdown and antisocial distancing alongside all the absurd rules that go with it then that will pretty much destroy this country as hospitality and retail are wrecked.

It will make the 2008 recession caused by the banking crisis look like a picnic.

22914 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Bart Simpson, 1, #446 of 1704 🔗

And Bezos will have even more customers.

22320 Mark, replying to Mark, 25, #447 of 1704 🔗

Lockdown sceptic also perceives truth about the BLM “martyr”:

NOT MY MARTYR’ Who is Candace Owens and what did she say about George Floyd ?

The Sun reports, as though it’s a bad thing: “In April 2020, she was accused of using stunts and controversy to boost coronavirus conspiracy theories, reports Insider.

For example, she insisted that “the virus was never as fatal” as experts warned.”

And here’s the video in which she explains why, not unreasonably, she chooses not to join in the George Floyd worship that is almost required in the sad, pathetic parade that is the self-abasing culture of the modern west.

UP TO NO GOOD’ Right-wing commentator Candace Owens says ‘she does not support criminal George Floyd’ and that ‘we are being sold lies

And if you need any more reason to respect what Owens says about Floyd, consider the following point also made by the Sun:

“Piers Morgan was among the many to show their disapproval of her comments”

Frankly, I would rather not have to have any opinion at all on the character of a stranger involved in an incident with foreign police in a foreign country, but when manipulative liars use it to race-bait in my country, I’m forced to respond. And it turns out, surprise surprise, that the incident probably wasn’t murder, that the victim was a bad person probably engaged in bad activity, and that overall it looks like just another case of day to day policing in the US that went tragically wrong for the criminal. He was just unfortunate that the restraint used resulted – probably unintentionally – in his death. Obviously if he was intentionally killed the that would be a crime, and the policeman, if honestly convicted, should go to prison for it. Though it’s frankly almost impossible to believe that he could now receive a fair trial anyway – but that doesn’t matter, of course, because concerns about fair trials are only for politically correct “victims”, not for hate figures of the identitarian mobs.

And remember the other lesson of the coronapanic -always consider the proportions and the context. Anyone who claims to be emotionally affected by this stranger dying violently in a far off land is almost certainly manufacturing that sentimentality in themselves. They do not care a jot for the other 2000+ people who die violently around the world, on average, EVERY SINGLE DAY.

Give these people no respect.The deserve none.

22333 ▶▶ Mark H, replying to Mark, 4, #448 of 1704 🔗

Mental that as a woman of colour, she’s regularly maligned. Did anyone see her testimony in front of the American select committee where one of the politicians used part of one of her speeches and tried to make it out like she supports hitler? When she took issue, the house chair attempted to shut her down.

22369 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Mark H, 3, #449 of 1704 🔗

TBh I don’t recall coming across her before, because I try to avoid getting too drawn into American culture war stuff nowadays. Sadly it’s not possible to mind our own business, because it leaps around the world via the globalist elites and comes to make our lives miserable here (vide BLM).

Not surprised at all that she should face the kind of thing you describe though. Par for the course for the Enemy Class (as Sean Gabb used to describe them).

as a woman of colour”

Is that the latest term foisted on non-antiracists to try to put us at a disadvantage? I try to avoid paying lip-service to these identity lobbyist scum by accepting their manipulations of the language, but because they have so many collaborators in our media and “influencing” classes, they usually get away with it in the end.

22449 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Mark, 3, #450 of 1704 🔗

A black man rants at a white BLM protester and tells her he is 2000x more likely to be killed by another black man than by a white one: https://mobile.twitter.com/DamienRieu/status/1268657945673416708

22499 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Carrie, #451 of 1704 🔗

Sadly inconvenient facts are generally just ignored by zealots. Though admittedly in this case it’s possible that as it comes for a source the protester regards as “special”, she might find it hard to exercise her usual denial.

Most likely though she’ll just come up with some absurd self-serving rationalisation about him being a “self-hating” black, or some such.

22324 Fiat, 5, #452 of 1704 🔗

I had a ticket to see Yes last night at the RAH.
Another of life’s pleasures denied.
To compensate I’m playing their Relayer album. “We go sailing down the calming streams, drifting endlessly by the bridge, to be over….” Thanks, Steve et al. I hope to see you on the other side.

22325 simon hill, replying to simon hill, 1, #453 of 1704 🔗

Hello everyone, we regularly see on this website numbers of actual deaths on a specific day rather than the government/world in numbers take on things.

I’m wondering if there is a link someone has so we can see for example how many people actually died on thursday? I’ve looked around but to no avail but someone must have it?

Many thanks

22612 ▶▶ Dinger, replying to simon hill, 2, #454 of 1704 🔗

It’s only NHS England that I know of that posts daily numbers. The other three are part tim e (I believe there were no numbers early on at weekends in Scotland as NHS Scotland didn’t work at weekends) https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-daily-deaths/ The weekly tables show “deaths by condition” and as of £ June, there were only 290 deaths of those under 60 (out of 27,045 where) where there were no known pre-existing conditions – that’s how deadly this is!

22642 ▶▶ matt, replying to simon hill, 2, #455 of 1704 🔗

The ONS does this, but it’s exceptionally time consuming to get to an up-to-date total of people who actually died on any given day. What they publish is an .xls of the number of people whose deaths were announced on any given day and when those days actually took place. Because the deaths themselves could actually be distributed over several weeks and because each death can (in theory) only be announced once, you have to take all of the spreadsheets since the Covid death announcements began and add them all together. I thought about doing it and then decided that I had better ways to spend a weekend.

Hard to spend that much time playing with excel when you have to stay alert and you’ve got a virus to control. I’ve got to save lives, you know!

22701 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to simon hill, 1, #456 of 1704 🔗

Keep an eye on this site. They update daily the deaths on a particular day. There is still a lag but you get clearer picture of deaths reducing over time:


22731 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to Nobody2020, #457 of 1704 🔗

That’s very helpful. Thank you.

22334 Chris John, replying to Chris John, 19, #458 of 1704 🔗

If they want us to wear muzzles then the politicians s should lead by example.
All of them have to wear a muzzle, for everything and for every time.
So sick and tired of the do as I say not as I do bunch of idiots.

22339 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Chris John, 5, #459 of 1704 🔗

Agree. If people feel scared only they should be wearing these masks as they will believe it will protect them (if they insist everyone else should wear masks it means that they do not believe that masks will protect them).

22397 ▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Victoria, 5, #460 of 1704 🔗

I agree. And the same logic applies to vaccines. If people think vaccines work and therefore get zapped with one why do they rant if I refuse to have it? If vaccines work I can’t infect them.

22450 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Bella, 3, #461 of 1704 🔗

Exactly! And Bill Gates says we can expect 700,000 people to die from his CV19 vaccine – that is more than have died from the actual virus!!!!

22779 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Bella, 2, #462 of 1704 🔗

Ooh, the pro-vaxxers counter that line of argument very fiercely –
“What about the ones who can’t have vaccines, for existing medical reasons ? You’re weakening herd immunity ! Child killer !”. etc.

23082 ▶▶▶▶▶ Victoria, replying to JohnB, 1, #463 of 1704 🔗

Most vaccinated people shed the virus (i.e polio) for at least 2 weeks after vaccination. That is scary and results in more infections.

Other vaccinations are only partly effective i.e flu virus only 17% effective last year. Measles vaccine needs lots of boosters etc.

The argument that all should be vaccinated to protect people with existing conditions does not stack up – it is exactly the same as the current lockdown that you oppose. We cannot lock everyone up to protect the few with existing medical conditions.

Always check the ingredients and side effects of vaccinations and pharma drugs before deciding to take it. One vaccination side effect is death, others are disability, auto immune disease etc. The drug Vioxx was withdrawn after 10 years and 100,000 deaths.

People with existing medical conditions could do a lot more to improve their health, i.e optimising Vitamin D levels to minimise the risk of infections, eat healthy diet, drink more quality water, improve sleep hygiene, move more. In addition, is to look at the underlying cause of the illness and start fixing that – people are not deficient of a particular medical drug, they are deficient of nutrients.

23084 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Victoria, replying to Victoria, 1, #464 of 1704 🔗

Meant to highlight this:
We cannot lock everyone up to protect the few with existing medical conditions.

22477 ▶▶ Old fred, replying to Chris John, 1, #465 of 1704 🔗

Boris couldn’t even manage the 2m thing in Parliament a few days ago – photo in The New European

22498 ▶▶ Poppy, replying to Chris John, 1, #466 of 1704 🔗

I’d love for them to wear a muzzle so we wouldn’t have to listen to the rubbish and propaganda they spew out constantly.

22615 ▶▶▶ Dinger, replying to Poppy, 1, #467 of 1704 🔗

They’d need nappies too for all the shit

22576 ▶▶ annie, replying to Chris John, #468 of 1704 🔗


22336 Mike Smith, replying to Mike Smith, 27, #469 of 1704 🔗


At eight o’clock the garden gnomes

Emerge from their suburban homes,

Clapping their obedient hands

For reasons no-one understands.

The metronomes.

They watch the dreadful BBC,

To learn the lockdown rules, you see.

They check what they’re allowed to do

And afterwards they’ll check on you.

And me.

22373 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Mike Smith, 5, #470 of 1704 🔗

Considerably better than the maudlin sh1te put out by the “poet laureate”.

(Sorry if that reads like “faint praise”, it’s not intended as such.)

22688 ▶▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to Mark, #471 of 1704 🔗

It’s a low threshold, isn’t it?!

22575 ▶▶ annie, replying to Mike Smith, 3, #472 of 1704 🔗

Good one.
Anti-Lockdown laureate contender?

22690 ▶▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to annie, #473 of 1704 🔗

That sounds a worthwhile position!
I take it you’re putting your name forward?

22850 ▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Mike Smith, 2, #474 of 1704 🔗

Working on my Magnum Opus right now

22980 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to annie, #475 of 1704 🔗

I look forward to seeing it!

22337 Victoria, replying to Victoria, 25, #476 of 1704 🔗

“WHO says over 60s should wear medical-grade face masks when they are out”

How ridiculous can it get? WHO (and many other so-called health experts) has lost my respect – can’t believe anything they say.

Not all over 60s are frail or sick and need protecting. In fact many over 60s are healthier than many younger people.

Let’s celebrate being healthy and fit at any age.

22338 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Victoria, 4, #477 of 1704 🔗

Absolutely. My father-in-law in turning 80 this year and is ironically in better shape now than he was 2 years ago!

22372 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Bart Simpson, 9, #478 of 1704 🔗

A good acid test is if you’re elderly and not in hospital or on medication for anything it’s usually a good sign that you’re healthy.

22558 ▶▶▶▶ Gossamer, replying to Nobody2020, 6, #479 of 1704 🔗

Right! The notion that the elderly are intrinsically high risk seems a classic confusion of causation and correlation. The older you get, the more likely you are to have acquired a few health issues en route- but if you haven’t, then you’re probably in far better condition than some people who are significantly younger.

22469 ▶▶ Old fred, replying to Victoria, 5, #480 of 1704 🔗

Agree – young, morbidly-obese, nurses advising people about how to lose weight is a common sight these days.

22748 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Victoria, 4, #481 of 1704 🔗

“WHO says over 60s should wear medical-grade face masks when they are out”

Over 60 says WHO should wear dunces’ caps for the rest of their lives. In or out.

22849 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to JohnB, 2, #482 of 1704 🔗

…and this over-60 thinks they should be made to carry a bell and intone ‘Mentally unclean’.

22341 GetaGrip, replying to GetaGrip, 13, #483 of 1704 🔗

Listening to LBC this morning.
Unwise, I know – all the callers being either ‘more lockdown, crush all resistance! ‘ Coronazis, or hysterical ‘it’s still not safe!’ duvet clutchers.

However, the interesting bit was a discussion with Manchester’s mayor about the dreaded R rate being over 1 there. To his credit he was against regional lock-downs. Although he obviously subscribes to the overall policy of coronavirus containment, or ‘controlling the wind direction’ as I heard it described elsewhere.

Then there was Cressida Dick, who I like to loathe, talking about the ‘deadly’ virus. Yes, deadly’s what she called it.

If anyone’s discovered a Radio Rational please let us know.

22351 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to GetaGrip, 7, #484 of 1704 🔗

The only one worth listening to now on LBC is Nick Abbot, at least he takes the piss. Stopped listening to Steve Allen when he said “It’s either six feet apart or six feet under” which I thought was a disgraceful piece of broadcasting. And I really thought Nigel Farage wouldn’t have bought into the corona-panic but, sadly, he has …

22395 ▶▶▶ Bella, replying to kh1485, 1, #485 of 1704 🔗

Farage, who I dislike, was vociferously against it, so I guess LBC has its ‘guidelines’. Don’t they all.

23041 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Bella, #486 of 1704 🔗

Farage is a populist. He’ll blow with the wind.

22438 ▶▶ ianp, replying to GetaGrip, 3, #488 of 1704 🔗

‘Coronazis’… love it.

However, do not give any credit to Andy Burnham , mayor of Manchester as within his statement yesterday he was against lifting of restrictions nationwide.

Same left wing loony response : More lockdown, none of them talk about easing. At all. Not once.

I know my recent posts have all been rants against the left wingers, but it’s plain as fucking day, that they are the ones who desperately want more control, more restrictions. All the blocking has come from their side of the fence.

I used to vote Labour, and I voted Remain.

22505 ▶▶▶ Bella, replying to ianp, 8, #489 of 1704 🔗

I agree with you that Labour are authoritarian – and I’m done with them as well – but I’m not sure they want more restrictions. Mandatory face masks is pretty draconian, as is an eleven week lockdown. My 80 year old mother has been staring at four walls for that length of time and not being able to see her family is killing her, especially her grandchildren. How more restrictive can you get?

22563 ▶▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Bella, 2, #490 of 1704 🔗

When have they ever come out with a point of a view that asks for quicker easing of restrictions? Never.

Given that an ‘opposite’ viewpoint of any easing of restrictions would either be faster easing, or slower…. their’s is always slower.

22353 DJ Dod, replying to DJ Dod, 11, #491 of 1704 🔗

Since Toby has mentioned the SA case, I thought that fellow sceptics might be encouraged to learn that there was also a successful case in Germany at the end of April, where a concerned citizen took the ‘Land’ of Saarland to the Constitutional Court and had the ‘lockdown’ restrictions there overturned (the federal system means that different regions of Germany have applied different measures, and Saarland was quite draconian).

The judge in the case, Roland Rixecker, said ‘We have given the people a bit of their freedom back’.

Amen to that!


22356 ▶▶ matt, replying to DJ Dod, 11, #492 of 1704 🔗

Again, though, it’s absolutely critical that the UK measures should be tested in the courts. Germany as a whole and each of the German Lände have written constitutions (and for reasons you can probably guess, these are pretty tight on the subject of the extent of executive power). We do not. We cannot allow it to be established in precedent that the executive branch can be able to do this, regardless of the circumstances.

22362 ▶▶▶ DJ Dod, replying to matt, 12, #493 of 1704 🔗

I agree. The most frightening thing about the whole pandemic has been the ease with which Governments have abolished the rights of citizens overnight.

22365 ▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to DJ Dod, 16, #494 of 1704 🔗

I’m torn between agreeing that is the most frightening thing and thinking that the actual most frightening thing is the degree to which those citizens have enthusiastically welcomed it.

22375 ▶▶▶▶▶ IanE, replying to matt, 1, #495 of 1704 🔗

Yes, although those two are closely intertwined.

23045 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to matt, #496 of 1704 🔗

The will has been from the government’s side. The citizens have been manipulated by fearmongering propaganda – a government initiative.

22421 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to DJ Dod, #497 of 1704 🔗

And here come the immunity passports: https://www.verdict.co.uk/vst-enterprises/

22457 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to DJ Dod, 5, #498 of 1704 🔗

Yes, in the released SAGE documents I saw that mobile phone records had shown SAGE that the majority of people 65+ were staying at home – hello? How can they know this – when did we consent to the purchase records of our smartphones (with people’s personal details) being available to the government? And that we were fine with being tracked? No debate in Parliament…

22502 ▶▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Carrie, 3, #499 of 1704 🔗

Well I have friends in that age range who don’t take their phones out with them, for that very reason. Anyway, what’s the point? If you’re not meeting anyone (can’t in the main) and don’t need to use it, say, to phone a cab why would you take it? So the mindless morons who draw up these statistics and tables think the over 65s are not canny enough to know they’re being watched by big brother. I tell you, baby-boomers are very wised up. BTW I don’t take mine out either, unless I know I’m going to need it.

22571 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Bella, 2, #500 of 1704 🔗

I keep mine permanently switched off, except for an occasional check for messages, which of course I do at home.

22649 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to annie, 1, #501 of 1704 🔗

Apparently because it’s hard to remove the battery in most smartphones, “off” still means GPS co ordinates can still be sent by the phone. I don’t understand it either, but I’ve been told that a number of times. A Faraday bag would prevent that, or – I’m led to believe – a simple piece of aluminium foil! Somebody more techy than I will hopefully correct that if I’m wrong. Fortunately I have two smartphones, one of which has a foreign PAYG SIM in it because I normally spend a lot of time abroad. I use that one to take out and about with me.

22778 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to CarrieAH, 3, #502 of 1704 🔗

Simple Faraday cage – wrap phone in foii; wrap again in cardboard or newspaper ( or anything else non-conductive) place in biscuit tin with reasonably tight lid. Voila.

22384 ▶▶▶ Victoria, replying to matt, #503 of 1704 🔗


22452 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to matt, 1, #504 of 1704 🔗

But our Bill of Rights still stands and that gives us rights..

22466 ▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Carrie, 2, #505 of 1704 🔗

Or so we thought.

22847 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to matt, 4, #506 of 1704 🔗

By the end, I think we will need something on the scale of the Nuremberg Trials.

22371 ▶▶ IanE, replying to DJ Dod, 10, #507 of 1704 🔗

Yes – I saw a great quote from Pitt the Younger recently (parliament, 1783) :

‘Necessity is the plea for every breach of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.’

22572 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to IanE, 3, #508 of 1704 🔗

Good one for the tshirt.

22358 seeker, replying to seeker, #509 of 1704 🔗

I agree with all the thanks for keeping this site so relevant.
But I am puzzled by that top picture. The girl looks awfully young for a 16year old. And while I agree with rigorous home schooling, putting them in clean uniforms does seem going a bit far.
I think I have to call bullshit – come clean, that’s an old photo, is’nt it?

22461 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to seeker, #510 of 1704 🔗

Unless he has another older daughter, who took the photo?

22361 tinxx, 9, #511 of 1704 🔗

Hi Toby, Thanks for all your hard work here. As someone with a fair degree of experience in terms of mathematical modelling, I would humbly suggest that it would be good if someone pointed out that, when we are in the tail of the virus’s distribution, the R number is totally irrelevant. Basically it is all noise now.

22366 Nobody2020, replying to Nobody2020, 10, #512 of 1704 🔗

Remember when the National Lottery first came out and the slogan was “It could be you”?

I’m reasonably sure that this slogan had to be changed as it was deemed misleading and in actuality “it probably won’t be you” would have been a more appropriate slogan.

And so it is with this virus. “It probably won’t be you” that dies is the real tagline of this whole sorry affair. But unlike the lottery none of us is even allowed to play despite the fact that most people who play would actually be “winners”.

22570 ▶▶ annie, replying to Nobody2020, 3, #513 of 1704 🔗

I think they’re the exact converse of each other. You MIGHT be the one to win the big prize, though it’s astronomically unlikely, so you go on buying tickets. Anyway, once you’ve picked your number and started buying tickets, you can’t stop, because the week you don’t buy a ticket will be the week your number comes up. It’s called entrapment.
Similarly, it’s hugely unlikely you will catch the bug, but you MIGHT, and the instant you shove your nose out the door will be the instant it arrives to bite you. It’s called entrapment.

22367 matt, replying to matt, 1, #514 of 1704 🔗

This is a useful resource
They’ve landed on an IFR that is much higher than I expected, but I think this is because they’re relying on actual tested cases for the infection rate and not factoring in serology tests.

Even taking that into account, some of the IFR rates in lower age brackets are staggeringly low (as you would expect).

Either way, helpful to have all of the stats together in one place

22416 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to matt, 1, #515 of 1704 🔗

The thing is, to prove that it is not as dangerous would involve allowing oneself to be tested..

22472 ▶▶ Julian, replying to matt, 2, #516 of 1704 🔗

I think the IFR does take into account antibody tests – it implies it in the blurb.

The key piece of the puzzle that’s missing is the extent to which people have natural immunity – those exposed who simply don’t get ill but don’t develop enough antibodies to show up in tests. Some think there are a lot of these people, some don’t.

22370 Old Bill, replying to Old Bill, 14, #517 of 1704 🔗

So we have all got to wear face masks on public transport. Good. As that will effectively kill off public transport, perhaps darling Boris – who I know always reads my comments here – will cancel that monstrous and dangerous white elephant known as HS2 that he is making us pay for and use the money for something useful instead, like restoring liberty, the economy and free speech.

Confession. The last time I used public transport in this country was 1994 and my general views on it make Jeremy Clarkson look like the chairman of Sustrans.

22377 ▶▶ matt, replying to Old Bill, 4, #518 of 1704 🔗

I agree with a lot of the sentiment, Bill, but in reality, it’s all very well being determined to avoid public transport across most of the country, but very difficult in London. It would take me an hour to drive the few miles into the centre of town and when I got there, there would be nowhere to park. Fortunately, I work from home under normal circumstances, so I don’t have to commute (and a big part of my work used to involve international travel – that’s not going to happen for a long time to come), but I’m pretty much resigned to the fact that my life is going to be confined to the bits of the borough of Greenwich that are within walking distance for the foreseeable future.

22420 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to matt, 6, #519 of 1704 🔗

I’m the same. I live in NW London – it takes me 45 minutes to get to my work on the tube. I don’t use the buses as they’re useless (I have to change three times) it will take me 2-3 hours and if I walk then that will take me the whole day.

The only way to get rid of this compulsory mask wearing is for Mother Nature to make her intervention (torrential rain) and civil disobedience. TBH, there is still time and I won’t be surprised if this becomes unenforceable as well.

22436 ▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Bart Simpson, 8, #520 of 1704 🔗

It is effectively unenforceable, though as with so much else, they would like us to believe otherwise (who’s actually going to enforce it?). It’s not actually the point though. My freedom to get on a train I subsidise through my taxes shouldn’t depend on my choice of clothing or my level of personal fear.

22564 ▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to matt, 5, #521 of 1704 🔗

Agree. Its really odd that as this virus is on the wane, the rules become even more draconian and ridiculous. Its as if they know this is falling apart and this is a desperate need to regain control.

22578 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Bart Simpson, 4, #522 of 1704 🔗

I have two theories (they can’t both be right), but that’s not one of them.

Either they’re trying anything they can think of to undo the panic they’ve fed/created, so that they actually _can_ ease the lockdown.

Or they’re just listening to the panicked public opinion and doing whatever is it they reckon the morons want them to do next, without thinking about it.

The second explains lockdown itself as well as things like compulsory masks and quarantine on entering the country. The first only explains the second two of those.

22655 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to matt, 1, #523 of 1704 🔗

I think it could be more sinister – compulsory mask-wearing has been i the government’s plans since at least April 3rd..

22672 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Carrie, 1, #524 of 1704 🔗

Well, the drumbeat of “but why haven’t you made mask wearing compulsory?” Has been everywhere since long before that too. Maybe I’m being naive, but I’m going to stick with my narrative of ‘weak and incompetent’. When there’s a tank on my front lawn, I’ll concede to ‘Machiavellian’.

22935 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to matt, #525 of 1704 🔗

Probably good to do all our thinking before the tanks arrive ?

22586 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Bart Simpson, 2, #526 of 1704 🔗

I’m currently mulling over the idea that they need to keep up the threat of this virus so they have a better case for compensation against China.

But realistically I think they’re trying to remove the threat of the virus being able to come back in a second wave. Without direct knowledge of what they’re being advised I have to try and read between the lines. What I can gather is that the countries that have opened all have lower infection levels than the UK and the government is being advised to be ultra cautious as we are opening up with a higher baseline.

22647 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Nobody2020, 1, #527 of 1704 🔗

A lot of their regulations are deliberately worded as to make them virtually unenforceable even this mask wearing is the same. OK they’re saying its mandatory but who’s checking? My husband keeps on bleating about the police but I told him that there’s not enough police and no thanks to their behaviour in places like Derbyshire and Northern Ireland, people have either been simply ignoring them or they’ve been beaten up.

Even TFL staff I suspect won’t be able to enforce it. Maybe at the beginning they might but the longer this goes on and the public become fed up we might see a headline or two about a TFL staff member being assaulted by someone being stopped from boarding a train because he wasn’t wearing a face mask.

22380 ▶▶ Nic, replying to Old Bill, 8, #528 of 1704 🔗

.how ironic after all that money spent on public transport we are told it is to dangerous to use,

22382 ▶▶▶ Skippy, replying to Nic, 1, #529 of 1704 🔗

There’s another anthem du jour, by Alanis Morisette… ironically speaking…

22415 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Nic, #530 of 1704 🔗

What is the point of HS2 when no one will want to be use it..especially if the muzzle is mandatory? It is still a long journey..

22433 ▶▶▶ Old fred, replying to Nic, 2, #531 of 1704 🔗

as others have just said here – the case for HS2 gets weaker by the day. That won’t stop ’em doing it, though

22463 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Old fred, 1, #532 of 1704 🔗

It will be only the rich using it, who will not bother with the masks and who will not be policed..

22383 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Old Bill, 5, #533 of 1704 🔗

Personally I’m a huge fan of public transport. The more people who use it the better.

I’ve no intention of ever using it myself, obviously. I share your views there. Especially if there are muzzling requirements imposed. But the fewer people clogging up the roads with their cars, the better for me.

22399 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Old Bill, 5, #534 of 1704 🔗

The last time I took a train from the NW to London, it cost me more than a return airfare to the Greek islands. Public transport is useless in the U.K.

22374 Sylvie, replying to Sylvie, -1, #535 of 1704 🔗

I was a total sceptic from the outset, which is why I’ve been reading here from the beginning. Probably because I’m of the generation that all had measles, mumps, whooping cough, chickenpox, before we went to secondary school aged 11, polio was a real horror (no vaccine until about 1955), yet no-one dreamed of closing down the world economy to prevent them.
I originally thought lockdown in China, given their completely different city living conditions (row upon row of monster identical apartment blocks marching to the horizon, perfect incubators of infection, with frail older generation living with family – who realised then that that was probably safer than being corralled in care homes?) could have been a reasonable response, until more was known. And after more than 50 Italian doctors died, it did seem serious measures of some sort were justifiable in Europe. Bear in mind that early on, we didn’t know it wouldn’t sweep lethally through children and all age groups, to be a scourge like polio. What a relief that it doesn’t.
Now, we know enough for normal life to resume for the young and fit, and need not have stopped. (Although maybe let’s shut down the Tube from Heathrow into Central London, make it all open topped buses instead!)
What remains intriguing is the severe and potentially lasting after effects on the under 70s who don’t die.
See e.g.

Obviously many commentators here haven’t themselves experienced this, and know no-one who has, hence their understandable impatience. But I now know young and middle aged people who have had prolonged, serious, or recurring Covid type symptoms of a sort never before experienced. And don’t yet know if the muscle weakness is going to go away. Tests don’t tell whether this was all Covid, they weren’t antibody tests. But it’s all been since Christmas, amongst Europeans.
All of which has actually made me, as an over 70, more cautious than I was. So, sorry for the lengthy lead up, I still desperately want to see all children back in school, normal life resume for the under 70s in good health.
But, please let’s not disdain those who decide on a mask, those who stand aside on paths. Live your life, but recognise that others may have had experiences that you have not. And that research into the root causes of some of the weirder effects of this and related viruses just might benefit those sufferers from post viral fatigue who, for many years, have suffered indifference and ridicule from society and many physicians.

22379 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Sylvie, 27, #536 of 1704 🔗

“Live your life, but recognise that others may have had experiences that you have not. “

No, don’t rely on personal experience, that’s exactly the kind of recipe for irrationality that got us into this mess. When it comes to national policy and making laws that are going to coerce other people and impose real an significant costs upon them, only the numbers should be relied upon. Context and proportion.

“But, please let’s not disdain those who decide on a mask, those who stand aside on paths.”

No, absolutely do disdain them. They are people who live with exaggerated fear of something that rationally is not the kind of threat they make it out to be. And that would be fine if it were only themselves they are immiserating with their cowardice. But collectively, they are imposing it on their betters, who are willing to face this small risk and get on with living their lives and making society work.

22394 ▶▶▶ Sylvie, replying to Mark, 1, #537 of 1704 🔗

Read my lips, no-one said anything about relying on personal experience to make national policy! Just be kind and tolerant to those whose experiences may make them more fearful than you are, rationally or not. You are not ‘ their betters’.

22401 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Sylvie, 16, #538 of 1704 🔗

“You are not ‘ their betters’.”

On this, yes we are.

Basic courtesy face to face is one thing, but when tolerance is overextended to become de facto approval of actively harmful behaviour, as you seek to do here, it is no longer a virtue.

When they are no longer collectively imposing their fearfulness upon us all, we can return to tolerating their irrationality, because it will be harmless. At the moment it is not harmless, it is profoundly harmful.

22426 ▶▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Mark, 9, #539 of 1704 🔗

Quite. My liberty shouldn’t stop where their fear begins.

22441 ▶▶▶▶▶ Sylvie, replying to Mark, -4, #540 of 1704 🔗

Wearing a facemask on the Tube is no more ‘actively harmful behaviour ‘ than wearing a niqab, get a grip. It’s politicians who are imposing measures. My main interest is in restoring normal life to the fit population a.s.a.p. and supporting research into novel aspects of this virus.

22451 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Sylvie, 10, #541 of 1704 🔗

People should be allowed to wear niqabs or facemasks (or whatever they want or nothing for that matter) but not forced to. They are now trying to force us to wear masks on public transport which I do object to (but I don’t use public transport anyway fortunately).

I wouldn’t object to a recommendation to wear a mask on public transport if you were ill, but that’s the limit for me.

22561 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Sylvie, replying to guy153, -8, #542 of 1704 🔗

Agreed. But I suspect much of the hysterical over reaction here to those who choose to wear a mask in some situations comes from people who aren’t obliged to use a mass transport system.
As for Bella’s ‘My liberty shouldn’t stop where their fear begins,’ it already does if you’re wearing your car seat belt.

22598 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Paul, replying to Sylvie, 6, #543 of 1704 🔗

The seat belt example doesn’t wash,there is a very good reason for wearing a seatbelt,in my job I saw many times the outcome of not wearing one,it is nothing to do with liberty it is common sense that is backed up by actual events.There is no proof that forcing a healthy person to wear a mask is a good safety measure,from what a lot of medical professionals say it is a bad thing to do.

22821 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Paul, 1, #544 of 1704 🔗

Agree there is no fear involved in wearing or not wearing a seat belt. To most it’s a sensible precaution. And I can choose not to wear it and maybe get prosecuted. There is plenty of evidence seat belts save lives, none that masks do.

22601 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Sylvie, 3, #545 of 1704 🔗

Sylvie, after several month’s claimed silence, you’re coming across very like a shill or a troll.

Read your lips, forsooth !

22639 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Sylvie, 1, #546 of 1704 🔗

I have to say that in principle I don’t think wearing seat belts should be compulsory, although I think it’s reasonable to require manufacturers to fit them. You’re only endangering yourself and it so it should be your choice. Same goes for bicycle helmets.

With masks the ethics are different because you’re mainly wearing one supposedly to protect other people from your germs. So really it comes down to how proportionate of a response it is.

22823 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to guy153, 2, #547 of 1704 🔗

That’s supposedly the reason but they don’t work. So it’s coercion for another reason.

22881 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Bella, 1, #548 of 1704 🔗

I think the reason for it is to make people feel safe. The problem the government have now created for themselves is scaring everyone too much so they aren’t going back to work. The idea is people will feel better with bits of soggy paper stuck to their mouths attracting germs.

22462 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Sylvie, 12, #549 of 1704 🔗

Politicians are not (though it does sometimes appear so) aliens or dictators “imposing measures” in some sort of vacuum. The whole lockdown was imposed as a response to public panic. The idea that Johnson is some kind of dark genius tyrant is pretty ludicrous. Cowardly, short-sighted slave to opinion polls is a much more plausible description.

You can blame “the media” for that all you like, but the simple fact is that, for a panic as irrational as this one to be successfully spread, you require both fearmongers and credulous fools, and both are at fault here.

Yes, some of them are actually too profoundly stupid to be judged harshly. But that’s again a small minority. The majority are only functionally stupid. They have easily the mental capacity to grasp reality if they were to choose to exercise it.

And that’s why those who wear masks and otherwise give credence to the hysteria are part of the problem, and should be regarded as culpable for that. They have failed to educate themselves or to exercise good judgement in choosing the people whose opinions they blindly follow.

Stop trying to make excises for them.

22478 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Mark, #550 of 1704 🔗


22491 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Mark, 3, #551 of 1704 🔗

I would agree up to a point. However power corrupts etc. And if government can assess the extent to which these ‘credulous fools’ will genuflect then they can pull even more draconian measures and get away with it. For some (immature people in the main) having power over others is extremely seductive, even an aphrodisiac. Otherwise why would you want to exercise it?

22483 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Sylvie, 3, #552 of 1704 🔗

It is if it’s forced or coerced. Which, by the way, applies to some who wear a niqab.. I have a friend who is terrified of her family discovering she doesn’t wear it so only takes it off when she is certain she won’t run into anyone she knows.

22600 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Sylvie, 1, #553 of 1704 🔗

I’d say wearing masks is actively harmful behaviour. But then. I can’t lip read or grip very tightly.

22844 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to JohnB, 2, #554 of 1704 🔗

Yeah, like, how are deaf people supposed to manage if they can’t lip read?
Does anybody on this site make use of lip reading, or know somebody who dies?
(Actually, we all do it to a considerable extent without realising.)

22403 ▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Sylvie, 15, #555 of 1704 🔗

Like they’re being “kind and tolerant” to us? I have faced innumerable incidences of abuse because I don’t subscribe to the fear. It’s not me being cruel and unkind and treating others as though they are diseased bits of filth. If people feel vulnerable or unsafe fine, they should steer clear of those they feel may infect them, but don’t trash the entire global economy or destroy our humanity in the process.

22435 ▶▶▶▶ TJN, replying to Sylvie, 5, #556 of 1704 🔗

So sorry, I actually down-voted you by mistake on this post, so your recorded votes should have +2 added!

I will not be wearing a mask. But I agree with your sentiment. It’s a matter of choice. Personal choice is one of the things which go to the heart of my problems with this lockdown, so it follows that I absolutely cannot criticise anyone who makes a different choice to me.

I think it looks awful, sinister almost, and I feel sure that masks are unnecessary, and from what I can gather they are of no help in preventing the wearer from catching the virus (rather they bring their own hazards).

But if people wearing masks respect my reasons for not wishing to wear one, and accept that I don’t, then it’s only right that I return that respect and acceptance.

22608 ▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to TJN, 3, #557 of 1704 🔗

Yes and No, TJN.

Of course everyone should be able to wear whatever they want. One respects their right to make their own decision.

But this is not the same as respecting the decision itself. We can castigate it, ridicule it, or otherwise oppose their choice in any way we see fit. Especially if we think doing so might help society.

I don’t walk towards mask wearers on purpose. But nor do I move unreasonably aside.

22636 ▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to TJN, 5, #558 of 1704 🔗

Everyone can wear one if they want – just don’t expect me to.

But seeing as the very act of wearing one has been mandated it is not a question of choice at all, really, is it? And it is that mandate which gives everyone who DOES wear one the right (indeed, the “civic duty” according to Handjob *VOM*) to castigate and even abuse those who don’t.

So…. it’s not that simple. If it was a simple personal choice, then have at it hoss. But it isn’t.

22404 ▶▶▶ Peter Thompson, replying to Mark, 20, #559 of 1704 🔗

There is a manifestation of mass hysteria in all of this. For every patient with confirmed covid19 in a local hospital there are 300 staff there who are on sick leave with ” covid like symptoms ” . Many of the people getting covid swabs at the testing centres are repeat attendees going 4,5,6 x to get tested. Everytime they come back as negative but they know they have it.
This mass hysteria needs to end. Stupid decisions like masks in public places and quarantine of travellers prolongs the hysteria.

22407 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Peter Thompson, 11, #560 of 1704 🔗

Absolutely. I commented early on in all this that academics and students of future decades will study 2020 not for the barely measurable (if at all) blip in death numbers, or for this particular disease, but rather to try to understand the mass panic and hysteria that will have had such profound and negative impacts on their own world..

22559 ▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Mark, 1, #561 of 1704 🔗

100% dead right. A feast for future historians who don’t have to live through it – rsther like BainGermany at oresent.
Will people collect Covimemorabilia, I wonder?

22560 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to annie, #562 of 1704 🔗

Meant ‘Nazi Germany’. Gremlin in ipad. Sorry.

23039 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to annie, #563 of 1704 🔗

Apparently, the “Wimbledon 2020” souvenirs that were manufactured for an even that will never happen are selling like hot cakes

22467 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Peter Thompson, 1, #564 of 1704 🔗

Sweden is now planning to make it easier to get a test, in order for people not to need to take time off work ‘just in case’ they might have CV19..

22529 ▶▶▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Carrie, 3, #565 of 1704 🔗

What’s the betting that these tests continuously come back as negative… this would be a way of coaxing the fearful back outside. But as an opposite viewpoint, it reinforces that there is something to be afraid of.

I’m never having a test.

22664 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to ianp, #566 of 1704 🔗

I don’t want to have a test either, because if I tested negative it would highlight me for needing vaccination. Although I would be curious to know if I have had the virus without knowing, as I have not really changed my behaviour that much during this time – I’ve still been travelling on public transport and going to shops for example.
I think in the case of Sweden people *do* want to work and are more worried about inadvertently infecting someone vulnerable than for their own health. However, as the official recommendation is to stay home at the slightest sign of symptoms, workers in jobs that involve a lot of contact with the general public, and who may therefore tend to get various infections like colds more often, have ended up being off work more than usual. And each time for at least a week..

22532 ▶▶▶▶ Sarigan, replying to Peter Thompson, 3, #567 of 1704 🔗

There was a lady on the radio the other day who was convinced she had it. Two tests came back negative but she wanted a second opinion so called her GP. She described her symptoms to the GP and they then confirmed she had it over the phone!!!

22412 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Mark, #568 of 1704 🔗

The tricky thing is that some risk factors people might have will not necessarily be visible – can’t tell if someone has diabetes, for example. I have some sympathy for people in risk groups..

22427 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Carrie, 10, #569 of 1704 🔗

Yes, of course there are some individuals for whom the irrationality is less delusional, but they are inevitably a tiny minority, when the problem we have are the literally tens of millions of the deluded fearful. And that’s the problem I have with Sylvie’s post. It’s not about particular individuals, it’s about the generality.

And in general, these people are irrational cowards who have collectively imposed the costs of their ignorance or cowardice on all of us.

22515 ▶▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Mark, #570 of 1704 🔗

I think your points are well made though I would say that it’s quite possible for someone to knowingly behave irrationally. At least it is for me. I suppose you could call it human weakness, or a curse.

I am pretty sure there has been a massive overreaction to this virus and believe that the measures taken cannot be justified on any rational or moral basis, but I am something of a hypochondriac and inclined to worry more than I should about my health. I try not to let those fears dictate my behaviour, but they are there and I am not a Vulcan.

22545 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Julian, 3, #571 of 1704 🔗

It’s mostly about context. In ordinary times, such irrationalities would be mere harmless curiosities and to be understood, tolerated, even respected as part of human variety.

But as a result of the panickers, we do not live in ordinary times.

I am something of a hypochondriac and inclined to worry more than I should about my health. I try not to let those fears dictate my behaviour, but they are there and I am not a Vulcan .”

If you recognise your own irrationality in a particular area (we are none of us machines) and do not let it affect your behaviour unduly, then you are neither ignorant nor a coward, and you are not one of those to whom my comments were directed. “Unduly” if course, is the tricky part.

22428 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Mark, 6, #572 of 1704 🔗

Well said. I thought we had got past any sort of pointless discussion on this.

The point though, is how to get the fearfully brainwashed out of their mindset.

22590 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Mark, #573 of 1704 🔗

Just about to reply to Sylvie to post exactly those two points, Mark. Thanks.

22405 ▶▶ Margaret, replying to Sylvie, 8, #574 of 1704 🔗

Re: Italian doctors dying. Was that the list shown on the Swiss Policy webpage which initially gave their dates of birth and showed that most were of retirement age, some were in their nineties and a lot were not involved in front line medicine?

22410 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Margaret, 4, #575 of 1704 🔗

Yes – some were psychologists and you are right – a lot were past retirement age! I would suspect that a fair few had co-morbidities, just because people tend to develop some of the risk factors with age.

22429 ▶▶▶ Old fred, replying to Margaret, 5, #576 of 1704 🔗

brilliant – the usual ‘don’t let the truth spoil a good headline’

22406 ▶▶ guy153, replying to Sylvie, 5, #577 of 1704 🔗

Absolutely agree that one should respect people who want to wear masks or keep 2m away.

The underlying principle here is I don’t like people telling me what to do. So it’s not my business to tell them what to do either. But it’s also fine to rant about how silly they are behind their backs on the internet.

On the other hand if you have actual friends who are like this it’s worth trying to talk them out of it. Although there is some psychological stress to being a lockdown “denier” the mental state of those who are still terrified of the virus is often not in great shape either.

22409 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to guy153, 6, #578 of 1704 🔗

The best statistic to quote, I think, is the actual number of people who have died *only* from Covid, ie without co-morbidities – that number iv VERY small!

22431 ▶▶▶▶ Old fred, replying to Carrie, #579 of 1704 🔗

is there actually a number?

22480 ▶▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Old fred, 6, #580 of 1704 🔗

Yes, someone helpfully posted a graph yesterday. I did not save it and cannot remember who posted it, but I made a note of the figures, which are from NHS England. They are as follows, with age ranges:
0-19: 3
20-39: 32
40-59: 244
60-79: 538
80+: 448
These are people whose death certificates *only* show Covid as the cause of death.
Total: 1265

22567 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Carrie, 2, #581 of 1704 🔗

Yes these are the numbers to use. I just ask people if they know how many people under 60 without comorbidities have died and then tell them it’s less than 300. Official statistics. Usually does the trick.

22625 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Dinger, replying to Carrie, 1, #582 of 1704 🔗

Out of c26,000 – 24,735 had pre-existing conditions

22643 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Carrie, 1, #583 of 1704 🔗


Ok so, wait.

40,000. 10% = 4,000.

That’s way, way, LESS than Italy’s figures (12%) / Washington State’s (13%). !!

22448 ▶▶ Aremen, replying to Sylvie, 1, #584 of 1704 🔗

Sylvie: I don’t understand why some people on here are so aggressive or mocking towards people who are afraid or wear masks. We can’t have it both ways: complain that the government terrified everybody, then mock those who have become terrified. That’s called blame the victim.

22501 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Aremen, 1, #585 of 1704 🔗

Yeah I get it… and I myself have been completely guilty of that, but probably because I am usually a logical, sane person. There is no logic to their fear, they have been brainwashed, and they are mentally weak.

So, maybe I need to try and understand how we undo all that psychological damage. I don’t think I’m qualified to do that, but there are plenty of people who are.

22644 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to ianp, 4, #586 of 1704 🔗

You certainly don’t undo that psychological damage by indulging it.

I agree that we shouldn’t be actively cruel to these people (because we shouldn’t be actively cruel to anyone), but I do not agree that we should just let them wander around treating masks like magic shields when we all know it’s bollocks. We should challenge them, openly and in person. I’d argue you can do this simply by not wearing a mask, then engaging in conversation with them if they treat you like a pariah.

22937 ▶▶▶ HopingThereIsAPlan, replying to Aremen, #587 of 1704 🔗

As far as I’m concerned “blaming the victim” in those circumstances is fine. We can blame the media for making he government panic away from their sensible herd immunity plan, blame the government for introducing magna-carta violating oppression and spreading fear-porn propaganda, blame the BBC for spreading even more lockdown-foreverist propaganda,and blame thsoe memebrs of the public who fell for it and obeyed illegitimate draconian guidelines. But mask wearing isn’t so bad really, I’m not for it, but if it helps reduce the fear and get rid of the real problem (the virus isn’t the real problem, the lockdown is the real problem) I can see it as a stepping stone from the crushing of liberty under lockdown to an irritating thing on your face, to then having no interference with liberty at all.

22520 ▶▶ Cassandra, replying to Sylvie, 14, #588 of 1704 🔗

Sylvie, Thankyou for your post.

I agree with you in many aspects of it. I think ultimately the one commonality that everyone has one this site- regardless of political persuasion, leanings or beliefs- is the firm opinion that personal choice and liberty must be safeguarded, and that any removal of said liberties must be proportional to the risk. It comes to something that in 2020 this is a fringe statement to make, but here we are!

Ultimately if people want to leap into the road when I walk past them on the pavement, that is their choice. As a clinician I could wax lyrical to them about the number of road traffic accident fatalities I’ve seen in the fit and well vs the number of COVID fatalities I’ve seen in the fit and well. I’d have evidence to back it up too! For example more people have died on smart motorways (38) than fit and well under 40 year olds that have died from COVID (35). And yet the smart motorway roll out continues!

Personally I can tell you firsthand of the sheer number of horrific injuries I’ve seen as a result of motorbike accidents. Young adults in the prime of life with life changing, horrible injuries- which they will never truly recover from. That’s not including the number that arrest and die en route to the hospital. And yet I don’t believe motorbikes should be banned. I just choose not to ride one myself.

But the concept of personal choice means that we can make decisions that may be foolish, reckless or shortsighted. I’m sure that we can all think of a time when we’ve chosen a course of action that we are aware may not be the most rational to do, where our emotions have gotten the best of us and we have done things which are foolhardy at best! I know I can! We are not logical creatures- and that’s absolutely fine! That’s personal choice and it wouldn’t be choice if we could only make the “smart” decision.

Where that all starts to fall apart though is when large, blanket irrational rules are applied to the population. Using emotion and fear to justify massive constrictions in personal freedom is not acceptable and it’s not forgivable. And rational members of society do, arguably, have an obligation to question that- which is just not happening en mass.

I can understand the frustration of many here to those who opt for a mask and stand aside. I feel it myself. I think my frustration doesn’t stem from their personal choice to do so, but from the fact that they have failed to appraise the information which is being used to curtail freedoms for everyone. Not only that, but after failing to appraise it, they are further reinforcing it by their actions and encourangement- they are complicit.

In terms of post viral fatigue- that is a fascinating subject, and you’re right, it is under researched and not understood well. I agree that it should be an area to focus on, but there are many areas of medicine that are under researched because of the way medical research and funding works. Just as an example: Lyme disease and the secondary effects are hugely under researched- and tend to affect young adults. Yet we don’t stop people walking in fields where there might be tics.

As an irony, the economic effects of our scrabble to protect against the threat of COVID may well curtail research such as this. Universities and the NHS are hardly going to be flush with cash.

22981 ▶▶▶ TJN, replying to Cassandra, 2, #589 of 1704 🔗


Thank you for taking the time with this thoughtful post – a credit to the site. And it’s saved me a lot of time in attempting something similar, which I would not have done as well as you.

This morning I’ve re-read Sylvie’s posts. I cannot see anything wrong with them. She makes her points politely and thoughtfully, and is fully entitled to do so. It concerns me that she has received so many down-votes. I hope she reads this, and continues to post. And I write this as someone who will not be wearing a mask.

Like most of us, I know people who have been made overly anxious by this government- and media-inspired hysteria. They deserve our support, not disdain. There is a very important distinction to be made between genuinely anxious individuals seeking reassurance, even in what are effectively placebos, and those who promote the use of face-masks as a form of virtue-signalling.

Once a site such as this becomes an echo-chamber it is finished.

22551 ▶▶ Sarigan, replying to Sylvie, 1, #590 of 1704 🔗

I hold no disdain. There was a post yesterday about possible correlation with ME/CFS and there may be something in it with regard to the muscle weakness and lack of energy:


22557 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Sarigan, #591 of 1704 🔗

ME/CFS is a joke. Wholly psychological… I know several experience doctors who hold that opinion. Strangely enough looking at the symptoms they correlate very closely to Covid.

We are breeding a nation of ME sufferers… wonderful!

22565 ▶▶▶▶ Sarigan, replying to ianp, 1, #592 of 1704 🔗

It was the similarity of symptoms that piqued my interest. Not just a nation, but a world.

22833 ▶▶▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to ianp, 4, #593 of 1704 🔗

You’re a complete idiot. ME is not a joke or anything like it. The symptoms are absolutely nothing like Covid. Not even remotely.
It is true that many doctors do hold your opinion, but ME is a specialised subject and GPs are not experts in everything. Those doctors have no idea what they are talking about.
ME physically changes the way the brain works. If you want to know about it, get onto Ashok Gupta’s website.
In the meantime I hope you don’t get it because if you do you will learn a great deal and I promise you won’t like the experience.

22887 ▶▶▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Mike Smith, #594 of 1704 🔗

What I meant to say is that is psychological. That better?

It’s not physiological. And yes, the symptoms ARE very similar to those bandied around for covid. Just go and have a look.

And what is project Fear doing to the mentally weak ? It’s making them depressed and stressed no doubt. Cause and effect.

Agree that not all doctors agree on it but my opinion is Very common amongst medical professionals with years of first hand experience, so therefore there’s room for discussion isn’t there? but I can’t help but see a very pathway to it for the brainwashed mask wearers. We’ll see.

As I have said, I am not the best person to bring these people out of it at all, as I cannot comprehend it.

22899 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to ianp, 1, #595 of 1704 🔗

Don’t try patronising me. You said it was psychological the first time. The point is that it isn’t. Experts in this area know this very well. Again, GPs are not experts. GPs have plenty of experience of patients with ME symptoms, but most GPs have no idea what to do about them.

Don’t tell me to look up the symptoms of ME. I know them very well. There are about ten of them. Not everyone has all of them. One is flu-like symptoms, which happens particularly at the onset. Also sleep problems, exhaustion (obviously), brain fog, pain of all kinds. There are plenty of them. Covid 19 has three main symptoms: high temperature, coughing and loss of smell/taste. None of these occur with ME.

Be honest with yourself. You’ve posted on a subject you know very little about and now you’re just blustering.

22942 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Mike Smith, #596 of 1704 🔗

No one has cracked it have they though? Be honest on that. I know enough. Not patronising. Just remarking that they are going to be similar to the common symptoms of covid which seem to be stacking up by the day. They all overlap.
Case in point – those govt adverts about getting enough sleep… When have you EVER seen such a thing?!
There are going to be a lot of the brainwashed showing those common symptoms, pretty damn soon when furlough begins to unwind.
Good for you that you haven’t been fooled or are fearful, and that’s the main thing

23030 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to ianp, 1, #597 of 1704 🔗

I didn’t say they’d found a cure. Complete nonsequitur.
I said the symptoms were very different from Covid19, that it was a very serious illness and that it was physiological. All of which are true. I also said look at Ashok Gupta’s website, and that is well worth doing for anyone genuinely interested in this condition.

23052 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Mike Smith, 1, #598 of 1704 🔗

Well put Mike.

23051 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to ianp, 1, #599 of 1704 🔗

the mentally weak ?


23076 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to Cheezilla, #600 of 1704 🔗

I know! I skipped that, but I mean really!

23049 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to ianp, 1, #601 of 1704 🔗

I’ve had ME for 30 years you arsehole. Arrogant doctors’ opinions are not proven facts.
It’s not psychological, there is plenty of physical proof. The symptoms are similar to post-viral fatigue but more severe – and you don’t get slowly better.

23079 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to Cheezilla, #602 of 1704 🔗

I did the Ashok Gupta programme and it definitely helped. It’s neurolinguistic programming to retrain the brain.

I also read Caroline Leaf. She writes in a very evangelical Christian way, which I find annoying, but she’s very good all the same. The brain gets rewired wrongly and absolutely can be retrained. She talks about how the brain is physically constructed and how it can be changed. A GP at my practice knows all about this and confirmed that this is absolutely true.

I’m much better than I was as a result of both of these. The Ashok Gupta programme came highly recommended to me from another sufferer and I recommend it too: http://www.guptaprogram.com
He had it himself and worked out a cure. Very interesting guy.

I wish you the best of luck.

22895 ▶▶ Felice, replying to Sylvie, 1, #603 of 1704 🔗

Elsewhere on this thread someone has posted the following, which might explain the doctor’s problems
Furthermore, outside of care homes, athletes, cyclists, sportsmen in hard training should be added to the list of vulnerable groups. Athletes in hard training suffer damage to their immune systems and are not only more susceptible to ILI but take longer to recover from viral infections as a consequence of the stresses their constitution suffers from a tough training regime.

‘Training, overtraining, and over-reaching will alter the parameters of immune function that we can measure and is therefore likely to affect the outcome, in the short term with respect to how quickly the agent is eliminated, and in the long term with respect to how quickly previous levels of fitness and performance are regained. This recovery will also be influenced by any psychological effects of the episode. For example, post-influenza depression is not uncommon.’


22378 Felice, replying to Felice, 9, #604 of 1704 🔗

I am seriously worried as to what will happen when the flu seasons starts this winter.

There really needs to be far more rigour in the testing and reporting of covid-19 if we are to avoid a disaster this winter.

At the moment, there are far too many inaccuracies in the statistics.

  • people going into hospital with serious health issues, catching the bug and their death being reported as due to covid-19
  • care homes where carers can decide that covid-19 is the cause of death even though there is no evidence for it.
  • people self reporting that they have got it.

This winter, it is really important that the government knows whether any outbreak of the virus is in the community or just in care homes/hospitals. No point in shutting everything down if it’s only in these institutions.

A complication is people self reporting. Lots of people think that they had the virus earlier this year when it was all just kicking off. Same symptoms, so not unreasonable to think so. But not tested so no certainty. Now I’m hearing of a number of such people who have taken an antibody test and it has come back negative. So they only had normal flu after all, most probably.

Is it too much to ask that before the autumn, that the government gets in place a proper system to (1) test anyone who thinks they have symptoms, (2) record whether someone has died with covid or from covid and (3) a more rigorous reporting of deaths in care homes.

Incidentally, I have been wondering why someone would decide to put covid-19 on the death certificate when it was patently nonsense. I have come to the conclusion that there are enough NHS and care home staff who hate the government and are prepared to do anything to bring it down, including putting false information on a death certificate.

22386 ▶▶ Felice, replying to Felice, 7, #605 of 1704 🔗

Forgot to emphasise my main worry(!!!). We’ve GOT to know who has got covid-19 this winter, and who has got flu. Otherwise before we know where we are, the MSM will be screaming for lockdown again.

22392 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to Felice, 1, #606 of 1704 🔗

The ONS stats are already very clear on numbers of deaths with ‘flu and pneumonia on the death certificate and numbers dying with Covid on the certificate. Last I looked, there were just short of 1,000 ‘Flu deaths in the last week reported (week ending 22nd May, as I recall)

22417 ▶▶▶▶ Felice, replying to matt, 3, #607 of 1704 🔗

But what about all the admittedly anecdotal reports of people having covid 19 on the certificate when it was nothing of the sort? And covid being put there when no test had confirmed it?

22430 ▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Felice, 3, #608 of 1704 🔗

Well, 2 things here. I mentioned here the other day that my mother (a GP) had told me that they were obliged by the rules to put Covid on the certificate when the deceased had had a positive Covid test, regardless of the actual cause of death. It turns out I got it a little wrong, in that there are 3 parts to the certificate: the first is what the patient actually died of; the second is other things that contributed to the death; the third is other stuff that the patient actually had as well. As a notifiable disease, Covid needs to be put down, in part 3 if nowhere else, if the patient has it or has had it. The ONS then picks it up, regardless of which section it appears in.

The second thing is that there are always cases where the doctor has no idea what the cause of death is, especially now when it’s more unlikely that a doctor will have seen the patient recently, if at all. I suspect that right now, Covid is a convenient (and lazy) thing to put on the certificate under these circumstances.

The first of these means that the “dying with” and “dying of” distinction needs to be clearer – but we knew that from the beginning. The second means that there are almost certainly a large number of excess deaths caused by other factors that are being disguised (probably passively, rather than deliberately)

22484 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to matt, 3, #609 of 1704 🔗

Other things to note is that the rules around certification of death have been majorly relaxed – doesn’t even need to have been a doctor who decides what the person died of, the need for a 2nd doctor to countersign is not longer there (easy for another Shipman to emerge), no need for the person ever to have been tested. Please see Ronan Maher’s article on Hector Drummond’s website for more details.

22489 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Peter Thompson, replying to matt, 5, #610 of 1704 🔗

From my experience about 1/3 of death certificates are educated guesses as to the cause. Why put the elderly spouse through the pain of knowing their loved one needed a PM and the coroners office is always agreeable to lightening the load. Non specific causes of death like ” old age ” have probably been replaced by lockdown zealots with Covid19 …no test needed after all.

22641 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Peter Thompson, 3, #611 of 1704 🔗

I have long suspected that the are just slapping covid on anyone who dies…. well, of natural causes. Old age.

The dementia-covid (i.e. DEMENTIA) deaths are also kinda proof of this. Anything that’s slightly ephemeral and ‘natural cause-y’ is being recalibrated as covid. No not recalibrated. That implies conscious planning.


22387 ▶▶ Bella, replying to Felice, 5, #612 of 1704 🔗

Why would they think that would bring the government down? It simply justifies lockdown. The more the figures are inflated the more the government is vindicated. It’s the government who want figures exaggerated. I hate the government and would be doing exactly the opposite

22414 ▶▶▶ Felice, replying to Bella, 1, #613 of 1704 🔗

I suppose my line of thought was to make the government look totally incompetent.

22423 ▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Felice, 5, #614 of 1704 🔗

Yes, but they bluster their way out of that. Johnson’s line some weeks back was that lockdown saved 500,000 deaths (see Ferguson.) So the more alleged ‘deaths’ from Covid there are allows them to say it would have been so much worse if we hadn’t locked down. Everyone knows they are incompetent but the more alleged deaths from CV19 endorses the maxim: ‘drastic times need drastic measures.’

22493 ▶▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Bella, 3, #615 of 1704 🔗

Just seen this on Simon Dolan’s Twitter feed – am thinking our government might adopt this, since they would otherwise have to mandate the purchase of a smartphone and make it law to for everyone to carry it on them at all times, which would give the game away to even the most naive: ‘ In Singapore yesterday the foreign minister (also chief of smart nation initiative) updated the flaw in their contact tracing app, and announced that they are looking at wearable contact tracing device-which if workable will distributed to citizens. Prisoner tags if you will.’

22816 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Carrie, #616 of 1704 🔗

Not fucking wearing it. Don’t see the difference in mandating purchase of a smart phone and wearing a prisoner tag. Rise up!

22633 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Felice, 3, #617 of 1704 🔗

I think we’re better off being completely ignorant of who’s got what. Like we were before.
Whilstever anyone is trying to quantify this thing it’s still in the public consciousness as The Big Bad. Hopefully we won’t need an interim stage where we’re trying to separate it from other ailments it can just become one of the maelstrom of maladies we are all faced with every flu season.

22389 Bella Donna, 6, #618 of 1704 🔗

Just to add my name to the many who subscribe to your webpage Toby many thanks for proving a safe media haven in these turbulent times.

22418 Back To Normal, replying to Back To Normal, 14, #619 of 1704 🔗

It is very disappointing to see that there are numerous “pro-lockdown, let’s have more restrictions” petitions on the government’s petitions site.
We seem to be outnumbered so I think its time to re-balance this a little.
So, I have submitted a few new petitions, and each one just needs an initial 5 supporters. They will then go for approval by a parliamentary committee – which is taking about 3 weeks (given my experience with the “end social distancing” petition).
If you want to be one of the initial 5 supporters, please click the links and sign each one. If you miss out here then you will be able to sign them once they have been approved.
For info, I’ve worded these petitions in such a way that they will still be valid after the government implements any “re-opening with restrictions” policy which I’m guessing will happen at some point.

Allow pubs and restaurants to operate without COVID-19 restrictions
The government should allow all pubs and restaurants to operate normally, and without any COVID-19-related restrictions.
As going to a pub or restaurant is a voluntary activity, there is no justification for keeping them shut or imposing any COVID-19-related restrictions on them. The public should be allowed to assess any risks involved and make their own judgement.

Allow cinemas and theatres to operate without COVID-19 restrictions
The government should allow all cinemas and theatres to operate normally, and without any COVID-19-related restrictions.
As going to the cinema or theatre is a voluntary activity, there is no justification for keeping them shut or imposing any COVID-19-related restrictions on them. The public should be allowed to assess any risks involved and make their own judgement.

Allow sports venues to operate without COVID-19 restrictions
The government should allow all sports venues to operate normally, and without any COVID-19-related restrictions.
As going to watch a sporting event is a voluntary activity, there is no justification for keeping sports venues shut or imposing any COVID-19-related restrictions on them. The public should be allowed to assess any risks involved and make their own judgement.

Allow tourist attractions to operate without COVID-19 restrictions
The government should allow all tourist attractions to operate normally, and without any COVID-19-related restrictions. This would include, for example, museums, art galleries, stately homes, theme parks and leisure facilities.
As going to a tourist attraction is a voluntary activity, there is no justification for keeping them shut or imposing any COVID-19-related restrictions on them. The public should be allowed to assess any risks involved and make their own judgement.

Allow hotels and guest houses to operate without COVID-19 restrictions
The government should allow all hotels and guest houses to operate normally, and without any COVID-19-related restrictions.
As going to a hotel or guest house is a voluntary activity, there is no justification for keeping them shut or imposing any COVID-19-related restrictions on them. The public should be allowed to assess any risks involved and make their own judgement.

Allow retailers to operate without COVID-19 restrictions
The government should allow retailers to choose whether they operate with or without COVID-19-related restrictions such as social distancing.
A significant proportion of the general public do not believe there is justification for the COVID-19-related restrictions placed on them. Also, many retailers are being crippled by COVID-19 restrictions. This measure would give retailers the opportunity to allow the public to shop normally, if they so wish, by choosing to shop at either a normal retailer, or a COVID-19-restricted retailer. It should be up to individual members of the public to assess any risks involved and make their own judgement.

22468 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to Back To Normal, 3, #620 of 1704 🔗

Thanks for doing this Adam. I hae signed all of them.

22490 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Back To Normal, 1, #621 of 1704 🔗

Can definitely support all those. Signed.

22492 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Back To Normal, 2, #622 of 1704 🔗

Quick question – can they see who the first 5 signatories are? If so might it look suspicious (and reduce the chance of them being approved) if the first 5 people to read your post sign every petition? I am happy to sign, just don’t want to act in any way that might jeopardise them being approved!

22509 ▶▶▶ Back To Normal, replying to Carrie, 1, #623 of 1704 🔗

Interesting question. I don’t think it should make any difference who supports them. I’ve read the criteria they use to approve them and that is not one of them.

22518 ▶▶ Back To Normal, replying to Back To Normal, #624 of 1704 🔗

Thanks to everyone who has signed so far. Only one needs another supporter: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/325072/sponsors/new?token=AG45L0YPTYT4U8ph6c-2
The others have the necessary 5 supporters now.

22533 ▶▶▶ ambwozere, replying to Back To Normal, 1, #625 of 1704 🔗

Just signed this one Adam.

22538 ▶▶▶▶ Back To Normal, replying to ambwozere, 5, #626 of 1704 🔗

Great stuff! That concludes phase 1 of this petitions blitz. Hopefully they will all get approved, I guess in about 3 weeks or so, and I will post comments when that happens.
Thanks again for all those who have helped get these over the first hurdle.

22555 ▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Back To Normal, 3, #627 of 1704 🔗

Stick with it! Swamp the bastards!

22573 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Back To Normal, 1, #628 of 1704 🔗

Have signed all of them.

22585 ▶▶ Edna, replying to Back To Normal, 1, #629 of 1704 🔗

Thank you for setting these up; I’ve signed all of them.

22656 ▶▶ RDawg, replying to Back To Normal, 1, #630 of 1704 🔗

Brilliant work Adam I have signed all six of them. Let’s hope they get approved. Commend you for doing this.

22729 ▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Back To Normal, 1, #631 of 1704 🔗

Will sign them all tomorrow, passed them on to my e-mail list as well.

22839 ▶▶▶ Back To Normal, replying to Awkward Git, #632 of 1704 🔗

Just to let people know – unfortunately there is a limit of 21 signatures on each petition until it gets approved by parliament’s petitions committee (I know that sounds about as bonkers as social distancing, but that’s the rule). That committee took 3 weeks to approve my “end social distancing” petition. Once they are approved, I will circulate the links again.

23713 ▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Back To Normal, #633 of 1704 🔗

Just signed them Government says they are still waiting for 5 supporters to put them live.

22419 Julian, 15, #634 of 1704 🔗

Admittedly not a representative sample, but out of a few hundred people I saw on this morning’s shopping trip to town, only a couple were wearing masks.

People in the slightly cramped town centre around the market (open) generally behaving normally, keeping a bit of distance but within normal social norms of courtesy rather than anything more.

Some small grounds for optimism.

22424 Darryl, replying to Darryl, 18, #635 of 1704 🔗

Saddened today when reading The Times ‘Push for facemasks to be worn in shops’ that we appear to be being softened up for compulsory face masks in shops. Apparently 73% of people want it made compulsory, which I find interesting as less than 73% of people wear them voluntarily at the moment. I have a suspicion the poll is fixed!

22458 ▶▶ Moomin, replying to Darryl, 8, #636 of 1704 🔗

More fear mongering. There’s a similar article in the telegraph I think but if you read the comments below I couldn’t see any that advocated wearing masks, on the contrary they were pretty much unanimously against.

22471 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Darryl, 5, #637 of 1704 🔗

and those so inclined can then wear their precious face masks and leave the rest of us to proceed normally

22474 ▶▶ Bella, replying to Darryl, 7, #638 of 1704 🔗

So if the poll is fixed who’s fixing it and why? Rhetorical question. Because they want to achieve ‘that boot on the human face – forever.’

22494 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Bella, 1, #639 of 1704 🔗

An excellent video from Andrew of the ‘Peerless Reads’ channel on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW29CGhpkWE&feature=youtu.be ‘Covid 19: Epidemiology in the dock part 1’

22486 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Darryl, 1, #640 of 1704 🔗

Definitely fixed – they probably only polled their fellow journalists!

22504 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Darryl, 2, #641 of 1704 🔗

73% seems very high as certainly where I live only a tiny proportion are wearing masks in shops, though obviously that’s not representative as I suppose there are people at home who just don’t go to shops and get things delivered, who might consider it if everyone were to be masked up.

22554 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Julian, 4, #642 of 1704 🔗

If it’s literally ‘wear a mask or starve’, I’m thinking of one with the legend ‘Warning, face masks make me projectile vomit.’
I can do a ver convincing retch.

22587 ▶▶ paulito, replying to Darryl, 1, #643 of 1704 🔗

Shops in Spain require muzzles and gloves. There are people at the entrance making sure you wear them. I went to the local supermarket yesterday and noticed that once inside, most people had taken the gloves off. Maybe because the supermarket hasn’t had gloves for the last few weeks, and ask you to put on those plastic bags that you use to bag fruit. There was no anti-social distancing either despite all the stupid stickers on the floor.

22439 Steve, replying to Steve, 15, #644 of 1704 🔗

I just watched the latest episode of a motovlog by a Dutch woman, in which she took us around the part of the Netherlands near Maastricht. It was probably filmed a few days ago as the weather looks hot and sunny. In this episode she goes through the edge of the city, past some busy cafes and bars which she said were now open for customers sitting outside.

It all looked so busy and normal, no social distancing that I noticed, also again NOT ONE MASK in sight. In an earlier episode she was in a busy small town high street in the Netherlands, where most shops were open and again not a mask in sight.

Later in the video she was part of a small guided tour in a mine, where the Germans had stored artworks during the war. The mine was open for tours, no social distancing rubbish and again no masks.

The Netherlands is a densely populated country, but they had a softer ‘intelligent lockdown’ than us, which the BBC said on April 5th may be a high-risk strategy, the idea being to “cushion the social, economic and psychological costs of social isolation and make the eventual return to normality more manageable.” Their PM Mark Rutte described the Netherlands as a “grown-up country”. “What I hear around me, is that people are glad that they are treated as adults, not as children.”

I so wish that was the case here.

The vlog is here and the Maastricht bit starts at about 7:20 –


22460 ▶▶ Oldsoldier, replying to Steve, 8, #645 of 1704 🔗

Great series:). I’m also a biker and have been following Itchy Boots almost since the start of her travels. My youngest son who is a Chiropractor, lives and works in Amsterdam and their ‘lockdown’ was totally different to ours in that although businesses were generally closed, individual restrictions were limited and mostly left up to the common sense of the population with regard to social distancing etc. Their government ‘recommended’ behaviours unlike that idiot Hancock who’s let power go to his head! The Dutch also lifted existing restrictions much earlier and faster than us as can be seen from video link posted by Steve. My son was able to re-open his practice officially on 12th May!

22473 ▶▶ Bella, replying to Steve, 2, #646 of 1704 🔗

“What I hear around me, is that people are glad that they are treated as adults, not as children.” Probably because they don’t have the ridiculous prep and public school system we have here which encourages the inmates to treat les autres as children. And then there was Rees Mogg who went campaigning in his constituency with his nanny. Says it all really.

22513 ▶▶▶ Steve, replying to Bella, 2, #647 of 1704 🔗

Good point, they really do treat us as if we are underlings/servants.

22632 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Steve, 2, #648 of 1704 🔗

Nice. Netherlands another candidate for emigration.
Edging closer to Dexit as well apparently.

22442 Mike Smith, replying to Mike Smith, 17, #649 of 1704 🔗

Masks are useless, and this is why.
“In order for a mask to really be effective that covered both your nose and mouth, you would asphyxiate. The minute the mask allows you to breathe, it can no longer filter the micro-particles that make you sick.”
That’s pretty clear.
From the excellent https://jbhandleyblog.com/home/lockdownlunacy
Recommended elsewhere on this site by ILowe.

22453 ▶▶ Moomin, replying to Mike Smith, 22, #650 of 1704 🔗

I think that’s the idea though, can’t remember which minister it was but last week when asked about church services returning he basically said that singing hymns might be difficult since it involves exhalation. Call me stupid but I find that both inhaling and exhaling are pretty fundamental for breathing! It would appear then that the best way to stop the spread and to control the virus is for us all to simply stop breathing! What a bunch of half wits!

22522 ▶▶ Geoff Townley, replying to Mike Smith, -1, #651 of 1704 🔗

Whilst I don’t support the compulsory wearing of masks, I don’t agree that none of them are efficient or they’ll asphyxiate you, the 3M face mask with replaceable anti-viral filters are excellent and have effectuve non-return valves.

22630 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Geoff Townley, 1, #652 of 1704 🔗

Yes exactly they have to have air supply and filters to be effective.
Kinda like…. a gas mask lol

22631 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Farinances, 1, #653 of 1704 🔗

Or does that have air supply?
I suppose the only -pardon the pun- airtight one is one that’s literally airtight and has its own supply. Like a scuba mask.

22738 ▶▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to Geoff Townley, #654 of 1704 🔗

OK, but I can’t see them supplying them to millions of people. I think they’re just talking about ordinary do-it-yourself masks and equivalent.

22455 Nigel Baldwin, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 28, #655 of 1704 🔗

I posted a whinge on here yesterday about how my dental practice had phoned me and was going to charge me £200 just to walk through the door and muttered something about profiteering and got really grumpy. Lame excuse: they woke me up and I was hungover. Yesterday evening the practice owner phoned me and spent over half an hour explaining the circumstances and I was suitably chastised and unreservedly apologised explaining my beer excesses. The lovely woman was horrified that I would think that her practice was seeking to make money out of all this and said that the horrendous costs the government have insisted upon before they can re-open are never going to be totally recouped by the practice and they have to increase charges if they are ever to open again. She then named practices in my manor that had already chosen to close for good. Only that day she had to go on a course and had to wear a high grade mask nearly all day which, she said, was stifling and nearly made her faint. She felt that the measures were mostly unjustified BUT that they can’t risk the practice being accused of infecting you with CV19 (though how that would be proved I have no idea.) I’m not over confident knowing that my dentist might faint on me while she’s drilling a hole but that’s beside the point. So what this government has done with one foul stroke is restrict the availability of dentists, compromise the quality of care and bankrupted many (who would rather retire early than carry on.) Interestingly I said I wasn’t going to come in for a check up and pay £200 and she understood and said she thought that was wise. Given that I always thought the six monthly check-up was a dentists’ marketing pitch and unnecessary I was intrigued by this coming from the horse’s mouth as it were but, man, I still want a dentist if I am in pain, and there ain’t gonna be many around. I’ve already changed my diet to incorporate softer foods that won’t break or chip my teeth. By the way, this dentist was only told this week that they could open next week. They’d previously been informed it would be mid-June at the very earliest so they were completely caught off guard. What a circus!

22470 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 21, #656 of 1704 🔗

Just another small part of the colossal and utterly unnecessary drop in general productivity imposed on the nation by this panic.

We will be much poorer as a result not of the disease but of the poor choice of response.

Blame the people responsible.

Never forget. Never forgive.

22526 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 12, #657 of 1704 🔗

I’ve never understood why dental problems are almost a subject for comedy. If you found yourself in excruciating pain for any other reason, a hospital would despatch an ambulance and make sure you were examined, given high grade pain killers, and an emergency operation upon if necessary. Nobody should have to put up with the pain of a bad knee for one moment longer than necessary.

But if it’s just an agonising pain like a hot six-inch nail being pushed into your jaw, and your face swelling up like a hamster’s, and it’s a bank holiday weekend, they’ll tell you to keep swilling with salt water and to try phoning a dentist on Tuesday to see if they can fit you in this week.

22819 ▶▶▶ Bumble, replying to Barney McGrew, 5, #658 of 1704 🔗

Also untreated gum disease can lead to cardiovascular problems. Friend of mine had heart attack which was blamed on untreated teeth and gum problems.

22582 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Nigel Baldwin, 5, #659 of 1704 🔗

So what this government has done with one foul stroke is restrict the availability of dentists, compromise the quality of care and bankrupted many (who would rather retire early than carry on.)

Therein lies the rub. Even before this dentists have been bemoaning of the fact that the public don’t really come for their check ups until its too late. I’m actually one of those as I didn’t go to a dentist for two years because I had trouble finding a good practice.

And with all this ridiculous rules that will ensure that it will get even harder and harder to find a decent practice and a decent dentist.

22456 Darryl, 1, #660 of 1704 🔗

I have been watching videos of the lockdown in New York in on a YouTube channel ‘Jason Goodman’. I find it quite amazing how a vibrant city has been transformed into a dystopia particularly over the last couple of weeks with all the boarded up shops. I honestly can’t see how many of the small businesses can recover.

The police are equally keen to clamp down on small peaceful anti lockdown protests. It looks like we face a future of Woke totalitarianism.

22459 annie, replying to annie, 22, #661 of 1704 🔗

I ripped down three Covibully notices today. Used them to shovel up dog muck (my dog could poo for Britain), bagged, binned.
I can’t stand filth on our footpaths. I’m not even keen on dogdirt, normally.

22579 ▶▶ Paul, replying to annie, 3, #662 of 1704 🔗

Good for you Annie !,sick of these hideous signs on our canal footpath,some have already been ripped off but a few left to tackle !,the council around here also likes red and white hazard tape,luckily a lot of sane people don’t so it doesn’t last very long !.
It does shows how subservient and fearful a lot of people have become that all it needs is one strand of flimsy tape to keep them under control and obeying the regime.

22840 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Paul, #663 of 1704 🔗

Tear them down! Cut the tape! Paper tigers!

22475 Julian, replying to Julian, 8, #664 of 1704 🔗

An unusually balanced piece from Reuters:

Breakingviews – Chancellor: A catastrophic failure of risk control

22488 ▶▶ matt, replying to Julian, 4, #665 of 1704 🔗

Oh. My word. That’s really encouraging.

22500 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to matt, 3, #666 of 1704 🔗

Yeah, I was surprised – Reuters has been almost as bad as the BBC generally, this one sneaked through.

22506 ▶▶ Steve, replying to Julian, 1, #667 of 1704 🔗

I thought at first that was THE Chancellor, but it is written by someone with that surname! It is still a good article.

22663 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Steve, 4, #668 of 1704 🔗

Lol yeah my heart just leapt into my chest thinking Rishi had resigned and was spilling the beans.

Wishful thinking.

22790 ▶▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to Farinances, 3, #669 of 1704 🔗

Even if it wasn’t him, I get the impression that he’s one of the Cabinet ministers who is enjoying this debacle the least and is most keen to get things back to normal again.

22962 ▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Poppy, #670 of 1704 🔗

Me too. I feel a bit sorry for him actually.

22479 Victoria, 21, #671 of 1704 🔗

Brilliant headline in dailymail “Hospital staff slam Matt Hancock’s pointless order for compulsory face-coverings after peak has passed – as furious healthcare boss blasts his lack of notice or consultation”

22481 John B, 7, #672 of 1704 🔗

Alternatively, you could both start a business together (perhaps set up a limited company) and therefore every time you meet up it would be “for work purposes”.

Excellent. At the same time meeting feminist demands for sex equality on company Boards, in this case the Board would be 50% female.

22482 Moomin, 4, #673 of 1704 🔗

Finally catching up then mate:

22516 Sarigan, replying to Sarigan, 33, #674 of 1704 🔗

Phoned my mum this morning who had a TIA a month ago and is allowed to drive again today. She happily told me that she and three of her nearly octogenarian friends got a fish and chips takeway from the local pub, went backs to hers and after the meal had a game of scrabble – good on her! She is now off to the garden centre without a muzzle.

22521 ▶▶ Bella, replying to Sarigan, 1, #675 of 1704 🔗

Isn’t that breaking the rules? Didn’t a bloke on the Isle of man get sent to prison for 6 weeks for getting in a car with a friend to go to the chemist. And how can you have a game of Scrabble observing un-social distancing? It’d be like doing the okey cokey sitting down – one arm in, one arm out.

22541 ▶▶▶ Sarigan, replying to Bella, 21, #676 of 1704 🔗

Absolutely breaking the rules and I am a proud son today.

22683 ▶▶▶ Jonathan Castro, replying to Bella, 7, #677 of 1704 🔗

We have a moral duty to break the rules, because the rules are wrong

22535 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Sarigan, 15, #678 of 1704 🔗

I’ve never met your Mum but I like her!

22550 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to CarrieAH, 8, #679 of 1704 🔗

So do I. More power to her blessed elgow.

22519 grammarschoolman, replying to grammarschoolman, -2, #680 of 1704 🔗

Surely, if Theresa May’s against the quarantine, that must mean that it’s really worth supporting after all.

22523 ▶▶ Bella, replying to grammarschoolman, #681 of 1704 🔗

‘Nose’ and ‘face’ come to mind.

22527 ▶▶ Julian, replying to grammarschoolman, 17, #682 of 1704 🔗

Anyone in her position speaking against government policy is a temporary ally of mine.

Do we have any reason to believe she would have handled this WORSE than the PM, had she been in his position? He could hardly have handled it worse then he did, IMO. He had a massive majority and the gift of the gab – a golden opportunity to show leadership. He screwed up and is now doubling down.

22682 ▶▶▶ Jonathan Castro, replying to Julian, 2, #683 of 1704 🔗

Doubling down is a psychopathic trait

22724 ▶▶▶ RS @ home, replying to Julian, #684 of 1704 🔗

Theresa May would never have flip-flopped like Boris. Nothing has changed!

22531 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to grammarschoolman, 4, #685 of 1704 🔗

Theresa has surprised me.

Shame she didn’t swing these low-hanging balls when she was PM.

22540 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to Farinances, 7, #686 of 1704 🔗

She’s never been a coward. She just didn’t really believe in what she was supposed to be doing and she was (is?) completely useless at leading so that people would follow her.

22548 ▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to matt, 7, #687 of 1704 🔗

Actually, it occurs to me that this makes Boris Johnson her exact opposite. It turns out he is a coward and he at least used to be good at getting people to follow him.

22628 ▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to matt, 1, #688 of 1704 🔗

Stop, stop, you’re making me like Theresa!!

Honestly though, I do think she was a bit of a coward when it comes to the EU bossing her around – even if she believed they had a right to, her electorate didn’t. But yes, I’m totally in agreement that she really was a remainer with a cause.

22594 ▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Farinances, 4, #689 of 1704 🔗

Don’t be fooled she’s caused us a lot of problems one of which was her signing of the UN Migrant treaty just before she went.

22596 ▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Bella Donna, 1, #690 of 1704 🔗

Didn’t say she was any good. Just said she wasn’t a coward.

22593 ▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to grammarschoolman, 2, #691 of 1704 🔗

The exemptions are everyone but the general public.

22837 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Bella Donna, 1, #692 of 1704 🔗

Reminds me of 1066 And All That: Magna Carta was a Good Thing for everyone (except the common people).

22619 ▶▶ IanE, replying to grammarschoolman, #693 of 1704 🔗

I think, if we could investigate her mind, we would find that it is Boris & co who she us against. One of those cases where my enemy’s enemy is NOT my friend.

22620 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to IanE, #694 of 1704 🔗

‘whom’ !

22621 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to IanE, #695 of 1704 🔗

‘she is ‘.

22746 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to IanE, #696 of 1704 🔗

You may be right. I prefer her style to the PM’s, but he got Brexit done and delivered an election win.

On the other hand, he has screwed this up royally, and we are paying a very high price.

Character. Or lack thereof.

22530 Stephen McMurray, replying to Stephen McMurray, 19, #697 of 1704 🔗

I have just started reading a book called Virus mania by a journalist and a medical specialist in internal diseases -Torsten Engelbrecht and ClausKohnlein. It is about how the pharmaceutical industry invents epidemics. I have only read a few pages but I suggest everyone on this site reads it.

Here is an extract on how they invent an epidemic –
“incriminating an elusive pathogen, ignoring alternative toxic causes, manipulating epidemiology with non-verifiable numbers to maximise the false perception of an imminent catastrophe and promising salvation with vaccines.”

They do it by “relying on the most powerful activator of human decision making, ie FEAR!”

They also say that they achieve their aims by the use of the media and restricting all alternative voices

Sound familiar! This was written in 2007

Another must-read book is BBC: Brainwashing Britain by David Sedgewick that exposes how the BBC deliberately manipulate and even create false news –

He quote from an article by Andrew Marr called “Poor, Stupid, Racist.” in which Marr talks about how ‘right thinkers’ should be in charge and the masses should be suppressed. This is what Marr said,
“The final answer, frankly, is the vigorous use of state power to coerce and repress. I firmly believe that repression can be a great, civilising instrument for good. Stamp hard on certain ‘natural’ beliefs for long enough and you can almost kill them off.”


22534 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Stephen McMurray, 13, #698 of 1704 🔗

Thanks for the Marr quote. I’m currently compiling my own dodgy dossier of Famous ‘Journalists’ Who Are Evil. Gotta be prepared for retribution once this ends.

22536 ▶▶ Sarigan, replying to Stephen McMurray, 10, #699 of 1704 🔗

Sounds very interesting and I shall add to the reading list. On the BBC, I was at a conference a few years ago and one of the key speakers was a BBC journo (I cannot recall the name now though). He was a foreign correspondent and working in travel we hoped for anecdotal and insightful stories from abroad. What we got was a horror story.

He was covering Russian/Afghan war and there were reports of Russian gunships opening fire without provocation. The BBC could not find evidence and needed footage so encouraged locals to shoot at the helicopters to provoke them. Several died. He thought it was vital journalism.

22543 ▶▶▶ Sarigan, replying to Sarigan, 4, #700 of 1704 🔗

I should add that he was actually laughing at the fact that they got the locals to do this.

22549 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Sarigan, 5, #701 of 1704 🔗

*mouth* *drops* *open*

22614 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Sarigan, #702 of 1704 🔗

Possibly best you’ve forgotten his name. Serious people, Pathans.

22613 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to Sarigan, 3, #703 of 1704 🔗

Who now needs to reinvent the Devil? – we have the BBC!

22759 ▶▶▶ John Smith, replying to Sarigan, #704 of 1704 🔗

Has to be Simpson…

The self proclaimed liberator of Kabul, October 2001 …


22539 ▶▶ guy153, replying to Stephen McMurray, 4, #705 of 1704 🔗

Right now the two authoritarian regimes of China and the UK (under Cummings) are in a vaccine race. Both will no doubt change the rules to get things approved more quickly.

There is a small chance that either vaccine will cause enhancement of the disease, smaller with the UK one. A proportionate approach to risk would be only to give either vaccine to those in high-risk groups. I’m sure it will be aggressively pushed to everyone however.

If the vaccine does cause enhancement the backtracking will be most amusing. We will hear a lot from the Guardian about how those people would have died anyway, and how it was probably flu and not Covid.

22591 ▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to guy153, 8, #706 of 1704 🔗

I’m not having it. My body my decision. Boris can go hang, literally!

22616 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to guy153, 4, #707 of 1704 🔗

Hmm, actually, I would think the high risk groups should avoid it till thoroughly tested. Enhancement of the disease, even if only a modest risk, would be the last thing they need!

22634 ▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to IanE, 1, #708 of 1704 🔗

Yes that’s a good point. It’s a difficult one to weigh up. The trials will also all be on young and healthy people so might not tell you that much about how it’s going to work on people with slightly worn-out immune systems.

22676 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to guy153, 1, #709 of 1704 🔗

Well Bill Gates estimates that 700,000 people will die from the vaccine..
Worryingly the SAGE minutes talk of discussions to vaccinate the entire UK population with the flu vaccine this coming winter – and it would be mandatory..

22811 ▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Carrie, #710 of 1704 🔗

Can you link to those minutes? Wouldn’t a forced vaccine create mayhem, at least in part of the population?

22812 ▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Carrie, #711 of 1704 🔗

Sorry, also meant to say if Gates estimates 700k deaths then why would he openly come out and say it? And why wouldn’t so-called elected governments at least put on a show of horror?

23746 ▶▶▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Bella, #712 of 1704 🔗

He’s said in videoed interviews (you can find them online, they are easy to find on bitchute and youtube and they have been posted on this site in previous comments over them weeks) that if he gets the vaccine right he can reduce the world’s population by 10-15% which is a lot of people.

22976 ▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Carrie, 1, #713 of 1704 🔗

I thought that forcing medical interventions on people constituted assault? Lawyers?

22863 ▶▶▶ Judith Day, replying to guy153, #714 of 1704 🔗

‘ A proportionate approach to risk would be only to give either vaccine to ‘ the current crop of politicians first, and sit back and wait to see what happens.

22547 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to Stephen McMurray, 7, #715 of 1704 🔗

BigPharma invents lots of ‘diseases/disorders’ to peddle their wares.

22610 ▶▶▶ Darryl, replying to kh1485, 3, #716 of 1704 🔗

It’s funny how the probably most medicated people in the world – Americans – seem to be some of the unhealthiest both physically and mentally. Mass medication doesn’t seem to have done them any good at all as a nation.

22993 ▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Darryl, #717 of 1704 🔗

And the UK is not far behind, sadly.

22553 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Stephen McMurray, 14, #718 of 1704 🔗

He quote from an article by Andrew Marr called “Poor, Stupid, Racist.” in which Marr talks about how ‘right thinkers’ should be in charge and the masses should be suppressed. This is what Marr said,
“The final answer, frankly, is the vigorous use of state power to coerce and repress .”

Nice to be reminded every so often that even those of us who think we understand the depths to which the BBC and the “Enemy Class” generally have sunk, the truth is actually worse.

This organisation has been shaping our society for a several generations now. Small wonder we have become so useless.

22648 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Mark, 3, #719 of 1704 🔗

Imagine if a BBC reporter had made a similarly strong comment supporting repression against some group or category favoured by typical BBC thinking.

22556 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Stephen McMurray, 1, #720 of 1704 🔗

So true. Unless ‘forces’ step in they might succeed. Where is that new political party?

22581 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Stephen McMurray, #721 of 1704 🔗

Stamp hard on certain ‘natural’ beliefs for long enough and you can almost kill them off.”

– ‘natural’ beliefs

+ BBC journalists’ heads

22602 ▶▶ Sylvie, replying to Stephen McMurray, 1, #722 of 1704 🔗

Try reading Marr’s actual article, in the wake of the Stephen Lawrence killing. It’s actually pertinent today.

22605 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Stephen McMurray, #723 of 1704 🔗

Does anyone have a link to the Marr quote?

22654 ▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Sylvie, #725 of 1704 🔗

Thanks. It shows some insight, but I can’t go along with the suggested remedies. This is an interesting aside: “ (Apart, of course, from widespread and vigorous miscegenation, which is the best answer, but perhaps tricky to arrange as public policy.)”
Tricky to arrange – but if he could, he would?

22836 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Julian, #726 of 1704 🔗

Of course he would. It’s for the Greater Good, so why wouldn’t he?

23085 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Mark, #727 of 1704 🔗

I wonder if something like that was tried, how many would go along with it. In my experience, there are a lot of middle class people who are prepared to pontificate, but they live in big nice houses, in low-crime middle class neighbourhoods, send their children to private or selective schools, and generally are not affected by the measures they propose for others.

22611 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Stephen McMurray, 3, #728 of 1704 🔗

Yes, it is now 1984, albeit a few decades later than scheduled.

22810 ▶▶ Bumble, replying to Stephen McMurray, 2, #729 of 1704 🔗

They certainly do a great job of inventing new diseases such as adhd, odd, social phobia etc and use dubious marketing tactics to promote areas such as cholesterol lowering when the only group that benefits from this is quite small. Consistently the most profitable industry for the last 50 years, gross margins for some drugs are c99% and marketing spend is still twice R&D spend. Direct advertising in the US helps with the scam.

22834 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Bumble, 1, #730 of 1704 🔗

Well, we’ve invented, or at least given a name to, Coronaphobia. And it would be nice if an injection of good, cheap common sense could be mass produced by a company belonging to us, and sold to gullible world governments for a colossal sum, which money we could then use to set a few poor honest sods back on their feet.

22542 Ethelred the Unready, 6, #731 of 1704 🔗

Hooray, lockdown finally over, Parliament Square celebrating

22544 Bella, 22, #732 of 1704 🔗

76th Anniversary of D Day today. Those poor sods who got slaughtered at Normandy and elsewhere must wonder what they were fighting for (figuratively speaking of course.)

22562 Sarigan, replying to Sarigan, 14, #733 of 1704 🔗

In today’s travel news:

BA owner weighs up legal challenge to quarantine British Airways owner IAG may take legal action against the government’s quarantine plans – and has been backed by Ryanair.


22566 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Sarigan, 13, #734 of 1704 🔗

This is exactly the kind of big business response we needed to see to the original lockdown.

Sadly they were all too fearful of potential popular backlash (probably rightly, sadly), or they were themselves victims of the panic.

22568 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Mark, 15, #735 of 1704 🔗

All except Dolan, that is. Credit where it is due.

22603 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Sarigan, 4, #736 of 1704 🔗

Good news. Every bit of pressure helps. Hope other businesses follow suit.

22627 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Sarigan, 7, #737 of 1704 🔗

easyJet are apparently quietly backing BA on this too. I hope the airlines take the government to court and win.

22830 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to CarrieAH, 1, #738 of 1704 🔗

Yes, and to hell, but not necessarily back.

22569 TMJ, #739 of 1704 🔗

People should consider donating to this https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/the-coronavirus-act-2020/ – the more Judicial reviews against the government the better!

22574 Cassandra, replying to Cassandra, 29, #740 of 1704 🔗


Nice! A wonderful article! Incidentally this is another thing I have struggled to stomach during all this: The concept of it being a moral duty for the population to endure this madness to protect the NHS.

Many of my colleagues have posted “We go to work so you stay at home” signs and memes. Selfies with facemarks etc. It’s utter tosh. We’re employed to do a job, that’s why we go to work (+/- a sense of vocation). The idea that because I have to be at work therefore the rest of the population is somehow morally obligated to silently accept draconian restrictions for a mild virus, in aid of “us”, the NHS is a psychopathic point of view to have.

22583 ▶▶ matt, replying to Cassandra, 16, #741 of 1704 🔗

I think this was the London Calling podcast: “the NHS exists to serve the nation. The nation does not exist to serve the NHS”

I’m misquoting, I’m sure. Sentiment is right though.

22607 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to matt, 9, #742 of 1704 🔗

Dr Lee said the same thing when he was interviewed by James Delingpole for his podcast.

22604 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Cassandra, 4, #743 of 1704 🔗

Good article. Some comments for, some against. If anyone has a subscription to the Telegraph, there is plenty of scope for responding to some of the negative comments with some powerful arguments. For example, there was a comment about “this is only for a few months” and another that seemed to suggest we’d definitely find a vaccine.

22677 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Julian, 3, #744 of 1704 🔗

It would be suspiciously miraculous if they did develop a vaccine that quickly – they have not yet developed one for many other viruses. If they *did* manage to develop a vaccine, that would add to my suspicion that this is a ‘plandemic’ where the virus and vaccine were created at the same time..

22623 Stephen Hoffman, 2, #745 of 1704 🔗

I live in the “heart of the inferno” (New York City).Only three things have kept me sane during these difficult times: The Spectator , The Telegraph and The Lockdown Skeptic .Here is a piece I posted on Medium a few weeks ago to help pass the time, If anybody wants to read it: https://medium.com/@stephenmarkhoffman/notes-from-the-plasma-pool-a-love-letter-to-corona-virus-e05bb8ee8d27

22635 Mike Smith, replying to Mike Smith, 3, #746 of 1704 🔗

The WHO recommends [masks] should only be worn by healthy people if treating or living with someone with a COVID-19 infection ( https://jbhandleyblog.com/home/lockdownlunacy )So has Matt Hancock seen this yet?

22637 ▶▶ matt, replying to Mike Smith, 13, #747 of 1704 🔗

I think they’ve just changed their minds again and have recommended they should always be worn in shops and things by everyone. If the government changed their policy every time the WHO changed theirs, they’d be coming up with a new piece of stupid instructions every day.

Oh… wait…

22645 steve, replying to steve, 2, #748 of 1704 🔗

The virus originating from a lab has been pretty much a very from months back.


A scientist was actually advertising to hire staff to Research injecting bats with SARS bats apparently don’t get sick.

“ The theory is that China obtained the coronavirus via a Canadian research program, and started molding it into a bioweapon at the Institute of Virology in Wuhan”

Then last year there was some dodgy stuff going on in Canada Winnipeg when several Chinese scientists were booted out of a virus lab!!

22678 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to steve, 1, #749 of 1704 🔗

I actually saw these theories online within days of the whole thing starting!

22733 ▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to steve, #750 of 1704 🔗

Was going through this in Feb this year, look at the similarities between the effects of “covid-19” on the lungs and the first vaping deaths in the USA that came out of nowhere then disappeared just as quickly after knee-jerk reaction without investigation by the Government. Looking like these were probably the first deaths from “the virus”.

22771 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to Awkward Git, #751 of 1704 🔗

I usually just dismiss off the wall theories, but this one rings very true.

23016 ▶▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to matt, #752 of 1704 🔗

I only read it as a lot of the guys at work vaped and had heard about it and were getting worried.

About a dozen deaths then none (or at least reported). All went quiet, all ignored.

It was the striking almost identical similarities in lung damage which got me but my question is where did the vapers get infected and where did it go?

22864 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to steve, #753 of 1704 🔗

Especially as an Australian research lab found that the virus attaches to human cells far better than any animal cells they’d tested.

22646 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 12, #754 of 1704 🔗

The current pandemic of Covid-19 has been raging for half a year and only 7 million cases detected. Let us use the CDC calculation that there are 15 infections per each detected case which gives 105 million people. Many infected? It is still only 1,4 % of the world population.
In a flu pandemic during a similar time interval it is estimated that 25 % of the population would have been infected, almost 2 billion people. That is 20 times the number of Covid-19 infected, despite the fact the R value for influenza is less than for Covid-19. It is obvious there must be a resistance in the population against this infection which is even more contagious than influenza.
If you look at the tropical countries between the tropic of Cancer and the tropic of Capricorn, there is also a strange difference. Many more cases in South America than in Indonesia, Vietnam Malaysia, and Philippines . Also in Eastern Asia very few cases in Taiwan, Japan, Hong Kong, and South Korea. The East Asian population must have an inherent resistance to the disease probably due to more exposure to corona viruses in the environment. I doubt that an influenza pandemic would have been that different in two similar parts of the world.
Many say the low infection rate in South Korea is due to an effective tracing policy. But Japan has a less stringent tracing policy. It is also very difficult to believe that, when you have so many asymptomatic cases, a tracking policy could really be that effective. It seems to me much more plausible an inherent resistance in the East Asian population. Finally, the dying out of the pandemic in many countries seems all to happen without achieving the herd immunity of 60% as postulated in the influenza pandemic.

22658 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to swedenborg, 1, #755 of 1704 🔗

Yes, couldn’t agree more. I’ve totally flipped now from “everyone’s had it” to “it’s not that infectious”.

Although, I suppose we could say everyone HAS had it in a sense – in the sense that they’ve been exposed but not contracted it. There must be significant cross-immunity both from other coronaviruses and simply through intermingling populations of Asian countries. Definitely would explain why western countries have taken the brunt of the deaths, like when a ‘foreign pathogen’ like a benign common cold would ravage through an Amazonian tribe simply because they’d never been exposed to it before.

But hey, even we in the west seem to have a considerable buffer of “immunological dark matter”. I’m very interested to see more antibody results – but am losing track of which programmes and trials are still being undertaken. My aunt and uncle got antibody tests in the post the other day – so there is still something afoot regards ‘random’ testing, I wish I’d asked them who was doing it. (Imperial, yeuch?)

22674 ▶▶ guy153, replying to swedenborg, 1, #756 of 1704 🔗

But how do you know the infection rates in all these countries?

Interesting to compare these two papers (which were both recently posted here):


These were both looking at T-cell responses to different bits of the SARS2 proteome, one in Singapore, the other in California. They both found similar results: about half of people unexposed to SARS1 or SARS2 had memory T-cells that reacted with SARS2, mostly to the non-spike parts of it.

It’s quite likely that these memory T-cells are providing cross-immunity and got there from other coronaviruses. It looks like a similar picture across the world (and at a range of ages), although this is only two experiments.

SARS2 probably has a similar infectiousness to most influenza viruses, with an R0 of probably around 1.25 to 1.5 in most places. I’m not sure that a 20% herd immunity threshold for this kind of thing is particularly unusual. There may be a bit of cross-immunity going on for influenza viruses as well– after all this is how the immune system has evolved to work.

22687 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to guy153, 5, #757 of 1704 🔗

If there is actual cross-immunity the irony will be that immunity only exists because of exposure. What they are trying to do now is limit exposure and thus reduce possible immunity in future.

The thinking is just so backward it’s hard to comprehend.

22727 ▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Nobody2020, 3, #758 of 1704 🔗

Yes indeed. The “adaptive” immune system is exactly that– adaptive. You’re better to get exposed to a few of things. Very rarely prior exposure makes things worse (this can happen with Dengue) but on the whole it’s a good thing.

We’ve had two new coronaviruses in the last 20 years and this current one is harmless for most people. It will probably provide a bit of useful cross-immunity for the next one.

22886 ▶▶▶▶ swedenborg, replying to Nobody2020, 1, #759 of 1704 🔗

A rather good summary why the pandemic is slowing down without the required 60% herdimmunity because of T cells immunity

22930 ▶▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to swedenborg, #760 of 1704 🔗

Yes that’s a good article. Both the Singapore and the California studies also found CD4 T-cells that were cross-reactive against SARS2. The CD4 T-cells are “helpers” for the “humoral” system (antibodies and the process of killing viruses outside cells) as opposed to “cell-mediated” (killer T cells aka CD8 cells killing infected cells or cells that have gone wrong).

In other words, these people had some memory for both kinds of immunity. When you generate antibodies they stick around for a while but even after they have diminished, you keep some memory B cells (which there weren’t testing for) and CD4 memory T cells (which they were and found) that allows you to recreate the antibodies quickly when needed. These memory T cells were found for SARS1 after 17 years.

We don’t know how much this cross-reactive memory helps in practice, but the chances are that it does although for some diseases it can make matters worse– this is thought to happen with Dengue.

Some of the investigation into vaccine enhancement issues (for SARS1, RSV and MERS) implied that having a bit more of a killer T cell response going on was a good thing and was associated with less lung inflammation so it may be that the people with the memory of these similar coronaviruses are the less severe cases. Some others are wondering if these might be the more severe cases however because of ADE resulting from non-neutralizing antibodies targetting other parts of the virus and actually helping it enter cells. But this is very speculative.

The benefit of the CD8 response is not necessarily that those killer T cells are doing all that much actual killing (and one of the articles linked from what you posted suggests that SARS2 is rather good at dodging them by downregulating MHC1) but more with the balance of cytokines. But then if you’re healthy and have enough vitamin D you’ll probably balance your cytokines OK anyway.

It’s all a bit of a mystery. To quote the Singapore paper: “It is common to observe in human the ability of a single virus to cause different pathological manifestations. This is often due to multiple contributory factors including the quantity of viral inoculum, the genetic background of patients and
the presence of concomitant pathological conditions. Moreover, an established adaptive immunity towards closely related or completely different viruses can increase protection or enhance disease severity”.

23035 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ swedenborg, replying to guy153, 1, #761 of 1704 🔗

I am not sure if this video has been highlighted before but I found it very interesting and instructive and relevant to this discussion

22711 ▶▶▶ swedenborg, replying to guy153, 1, #762 of 1704 🔗

Thanks for the comment. I used CDC suggested R 2.5 https://coronavirusbellcurve.com/latest-cdc-data-shows-low-death-rate-for-people-of-all-ages-and-health-conditions/
That is higher than influenza. The true rate of infection difficult for the countries and I rely on Worldometer. But Brazil versus Indonesia(60 million more people).Brazil test about 4 times more than Indonesia but Indonesia hit earlier with Covid-19 than Brazil. Brazil 646.000 cases Indonesia 30000 cases. Brazil versus Phillipines (half population). Roughly the same testing. Brazil 646000 cases Phillipines 21000 cases.
Agree with everything you say about the cross immunity but wouldn’t surprise me if it is more in East Asia.

22975 ▶▶ annie, replying to swedenborg, #763 of 1704 🔗

It always beats me why they call it a pandemic, except as part of the terror campaign.
What’s the official definition of a pandemic?

22650 ianric, replying to ianric, 12, #764 of 1704 🔗

As the lockdown drags on, more and more complications are caused. A major issue caused by lockdown are companies paying for services they don’t use. For instance, a hotel chain has an annual contract with a cleaning company. If hotels are not allowed to operate, the rooms will not need cleaning with no guests and the hotel will be paying for a cleaning service they will not use during lockdown. I have annual gym membership and as gyms can’t operate, I am paying for membership I can’t use. Shops, hotels and restaurants are paying rent on premises where they can’t operate. Taxi firms are paying licence fees to council when lockdown has taken their trade away.

22653 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to ianric, 7, #765 of 1704 🔗

= Everyone stops paying. And everyone gets fired.

22657 ▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to ianric, 9, #766 of 1704 🔗

Politicians have no experience of running businesses and they don’t bother involving small or medium sized businesses with their plans.

22684 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Bella Donna, 7, #767 of 1704 🔗

Exactly. I think every single MP should have to complete some sort of work-experience in an SME to see what life is like in the real world. To see what it is like to adhere to the rules they put in place.

22777 ▶▶▶▶ IanE, replying to kh1485, 1, #768 of 1704 🔗

Which would of course be a terrible burden for the SME!

22877 ▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to IanE, #769 of 1704 🔗

Yeah, fair point, scrap that idea!

22803 ▶▶ Bella, replying to ianric, #770 of 1704 🔗

Not sure its entirely accurate. Maybe for chains of hotels but not the big independent ones, even if corporate run. Was speaking to the window cleaners of our flats yesterday who do a huge number of hotels in our seaside town. Cleaning stopped, payment stopped. And they don’t want their windows cleaned as they don’t have guests even though coastal weather and salt can rough them up a bit.

22858 ▶▶▶ ianric, replying to Bella, 1, #771 of 1704 🔗

I assume the cleaner you mentioned was paid on a job by job basis rather than a set contract. I was thinking what happens if companies pay up front for a contract for a specific period of time to receive a service only to find themselves they have paid for a service they don’t need as they can’t operate. For instance, we have an annual contract for someone to collect our shredding. My place of work has stayed open during lockdown and staff still come in and we are using the shredding service. I was thinking if we were a business that couldn’t operate, we would be paying for a service we wouldn’t be using during lockdown as there are no staff to generate items needing shredding.

Another complication is refunds. I have heard people have had problems with getting refunds from airlines. I was wondering if people have problems with refunds with other types of firms.

23231 ▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to ianric, #772 of 1704 🔗

I’ve not had any problems in terms of refunds from museums although it took a bit of time for Tate to refund me for tickets to their Andy Warhol exhibition. As for cancelled concerts and talks I’ve either had a credit note or they have been rescheduled.

22807 ▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to ianric, #773 of 1704 🔗

Wait until everyone finds a way out of those contracts, employment will sky rocket.

22659 Kareninaccounts, 1, #774 of 1704 🔗

This has been the voice of sanity. Thank you, Toby and all the contributors.

22660 LGDTLK, replying to LGDTLK, 19, #775 of 1704 🔗

Once again today I feel as though I’ve entered a parallel universe.

I posted about Travelodge’s woes a couple of days ago when they announced they would apply for a CVA putting 10,000 jobs and livelihoods at risk.

They are effectively now in breach of their banking covenants having effectively ceased trading since March – not due to coronavirus as the BBC put it – but due to government lockdowns.

Back in January when Thomas Cook went bust – primarily due to mismanagement and the fact that their business model had become hopelessly outdated – the Labour party and unions piled in with their usual paeans to government that this great British institution and the jobs it supported must be protected.

From those same sources this week not a single bat-squeak of protest about Travelodge. However go to any of their websites and they are full of entreaties to support the BLM protests and “take the knee”.

That a successful company’s imminent demise can go almost unnoticed amongst the sanctimonious virtue signalling, now at stratospheric levels, is almost beyond parody. Seems these days you have to be the right sort of victim to evince any sympathy.

22685 ▶▶ Sarigan, replying to LGDTLK, 13, #776 of 1704 🔗

Not relevant but Thomas Cook was September 23 last year. I remember it well as my business lost close to £50k as a result of that and stand to lose double that if the measures are not eased soon.

Local BBC want me on the radio next week to talk about the plight of independent travel businesses but have already said that I need to stick to facts! Maybe my opportunity to raise hell though.

22770 ▶▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to Sarigan, 1, #777 of 1704 🔗

BBC facts is that? good luck fact checking them.

Sorry to hear about your business, hopefully your business will survive. I hope this mess is ended before we loose even more independent businesses.

22799 ▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Sarigan, #778 of 1704 🔗

Yeah, they’ll just edit you out. Done that to me before when I’ve let a critical remark pass my lips.

22859 ▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to Sarigan, 2, #779 of 1704 🔗

Make sure you have all your facts and figures to hand. Don’t let them trip you up.

22741 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to LGDTLK, 6, #780 of 1704 🔗

It’s really odd that these reports of businesses going bust are not front page news. They should be because it will show the impact of the lockdown and social distancing.

But perhaps that’s the reason why – it doesn’t fit into the current narrative of the government and the MSM.

22753 ▶▶ ianric, replying to LGDTLK, 2, #781 of 1704 🔗

As far as I know Travelodge were not in difficulty prior to Lockdown and if Travelodge go bust, this is a perfect example of lockdown killing off previously viable businesses. If a big chain like Travelodge can’t survive lockdown what hope do small independent hotels and B & Bs have. If hotels go bust, finding accommodation will be harder and remaining hotels can charge higher prices due to less competition. I sometimes go to concerts at the MEN in Manchester and there is a convenient Travelodge right next to it. If Travelodge go bust, I will loose out on this if I go to another concert at MEN.

22804 ▶▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to ianric, 1, #782 of 1704 🔗

. If our current leaders have their way you will not be going to MEN or any other venue, you will be watching online, so will not need overnight accommodation.

Or the venue will have to provide 2M distancing for each visitor, so your ticket which cost £75 per CV19 will now cost £450, oh and don’t forget your muzzle. fines will be imposed for non compliance.

Sad, sad world.

22860 ▶▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to Dave #KBF, #783 of 1704 🔗

Have you been watching Dave Cullen as well??

22828 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to ianric, #784 of 1704 🔗

Correct of course, but I betcha loads of companies were wanting big redundancies before the l.d. and now, Hey Presto, l.d. and the Supreme Soviet will get the blame.

What you night call a no- brainer, which is the perfect description for these times.

22805 ▶▶ Bumble, replying to LGDTLK, 3, #785 of 1704 🔗

Travelodge is owned by a Luxembourg based hedge fund. Their landlords for the hotels are smaller investors and councils. The CVA looks more like a ploy to force rent holidays until 2021, despite the fact that they made 129m last year snd have been offered a 3 month rent holiday. Feel sorry for the staff but this is just a squeeze on the landlords. That said many businesses will go bust innthe hotel sector.

22661 ianp, replying to ianp, 3, #786 of 1704 🔗

Just switched on Bundesliga football this afternoon… Had me fooled for a split second, crowd noise! Alas, no of course, pumped noise noise into the stadium that almost matches the actual game itself (cheering for goals). It’s even fairly convincing for a TV audience.

Somebody is being paid a lot of money to make as convincing as possible.

Utter farce. This makes me worry that no stadium sports are returning anytime soon.

Welcome to the future ‘new normal’ 🤬

22757 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to ianp, #787 of 1704 🔗

Thought you’d be pleased, not to have to go to Old Toilet ? 🙂

22876 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to JohnB, 2, #788 of 1704 🔗

I think we have more important things to worry about at the moment, but you can’t help yourself can you..? 😉
I doubt I’ll even be watching on TV tbh, and no not because of the Scouse lifting the title (might be a bit hollow?), but due no doubt to the virtuous cringe level of what will be a minute’s silence for Corona victims, then a knee for BLM lies and a career criminal, and to top it all off your lot’s hideous anthem hijacked for ‘our NHS heroes’. Stuff the lockdown… All That dianafication virtuosity will just be too much to stomach

22904 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to ianp, #789 of 1704 🔗

Very necessary to keep normal things going, Ian, during this clusterfuck. 🙂 How hollow you reckon a 25 point lead is is, of course, a matter for your conscience. 🙂 🙂

Agree with you about all the nonsense though – my viewing will commence at precisely 2:59:59, or the equivalent for evening games.

22943 ▶▶▶▶▶ ianp, replying to JohnB, #790 of 1704 🔗

Ha! I had totally forgotten what the lead was, so accepted the inevitably of the trophy going over many many months ago. That’s kind of gone as any pain point, sorry to tell you 😉 . Once you’ve had one like in 2012 with Abu Dhabi lot, everything else pales quite significantly. Even so, even they’ve ceased to matter very much since then which is weird to say.

Frightening how much I am forgetting about normal life and things that have been taken away from us 😳

22953 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to ianp, #791 of 1704 🔗

It is a fact that normal stuff has to carry on. Going to see friends & family, the footie, and hopefully, soon, the pubs ! (Other pastimes are available).

Had an FPN drop through our letter box the other day. Brief visions of my day in court (clean suit, blackmarket haircut, stirring denunciation of political fuckwittery), which vanished when I realised they’d issued it to my wife. Bastards.

22798 ▶▶ Bella, replying to ianp, 4, #792 of 1704 🔗

Don’t watch it. However much you love sport don’t watch it. On the same principal as you don’t go into a shop if you have to wear a mask. If you watch it you’re buying into the narrative of the ‘new normal.’

22921 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Bella, #793 of 1704 🔗

Ooh err, that required a ciggie and a cup of tea. 🙂

On (hopefully honest) reflection –
1) It’s not sport, it’s footie. Big difference. Allez allez allez etc.
2) It’s part way through a possibly historic season, which millions have followed since August last year. Any bollocks introduced for next season I shall be much more inclined to campaign against and/or avoid.
3) I shan’t be paying to watch, nor will I be ‘countable’ in any way. So I’m unclear as to how I’d be buying in to any narrative.
4) When Liverpool FC win the league, there will likely be an ENORMOUS parade through the city (a million or so, totally dwarfing ‘BLM’) which will kill stone-dead any remnants of ‘new normal’ which have clung to life til the end of July.

22945 ▶▶▶▶ ianp, replying to JohnB, #794 of 1704 🔗

Ah come on!! ‘Historic’ 😆 … How so? Maybe breaking a points record might get a few brownie points but if you want historic, then am sure you fondly remember 1999? 😜

But I do agree that a parade and people out on the streets would be great to see, even if you might get a few evertonians there with you just cos they want to finally get out of the house after lockdown. I would be very concerned if it didn’t happen, I will know we’re all fucked at that point.

22957 ▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to ianp, #795 of 1704 🔗

No need to go back to the last century 🙂 – only a year ago was our historic 6th European Championship. 🙂

This year will mainly be historic due to one of the greatest teams of all time (clue – from Manchester) falling so far behind us that Pep’s brain might explode.

22662 Arkleston, 5, #796 of 1704 🔗

Just wanted to openly thank you for maintaining this webpage. Yours is a Herculean achievement. To quote from ‘Go the Distance”, “ But to look beyond the glory is the hardest part, for a hero’s strength is measured by his heart”

Not just your heart – your intellect, your prodigious work ethic, and the quality and quantity of your output.

Another thing I wanted to comment on:

I am a lover of classical music and ballet; both of these performing art forms have been hammered by the lockdown and face very uncertain futures. I think of all those ballet dancers who have trained their bodies for years, now stuck in their (oftentimes cramped) dwellings, trying to stay disciplined with solitary practice routines and diet but maybe succumbing to despair and reaching for comfort snacks, letting the weight creep up. The musicians who do not know if they will ever play in orchestras or ensembles again. Even if they are allowed to resume, the poor brass and wind players will be confined inside plexiglass booths, while everyone else wears a mask and sits 2 metres apart.

But I do believe sanity will prevail if a critical mass of the population insist on it. In the meantime, I am heartened by this website and the people who post on it. My ‘gratitude’ is best summed up by Grieg’s piano piece of the same name: Tak – thank you https://youtu.be/ZjJK45Gy-qk

22667 Julian, replying to Julian, 12, #797 of 1704 🔗

Demonstrations in many places across the UK, described by senior police as “unlawful”. Pleas from politicians to not do it, but no enforcement. Pleas from politicians and police to find “safer” ways of demonstrating.

So to what extent do the government really believe that a “deadly virus” is circulating and we must “save lives” by staying at home?

Or is it simply that they weigh up the relative possibly bad publicity from either enforcing the law or relaxing restrictions, and end up doing neither.

22669 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Julian, 10, #798 of 1704 🔗

This is to me is the biggest reveal that this is all about image management (AKA the arse-cover AKA the cover UP – which is probably what we should call it because that’s what it is).

The biggest threat to their coronavirus policy and public health – if they’re being honest – versus the biggest threat to their coronavirus narrative – if they’re not – and what do they do? Nothing.

Because it’s actually more important to remain on the good side of the media. Because that is the NUMBER ONE objective. They are taking a gamble that being on the right side of the media will filter through to the public, despite the fact that there is a considerable public *side-eye* towards the hypocrisy of these protests. They’re hoping the virtue of giving BLM a pass will carry them through any possible public outcry.

22675 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Farinances, 3, #799 of 1704 🔗

Spot on.

This is possibly a good angle to use with vaguely pro-lockdown Tories, to show them they are being had.

22698 ▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to Farinances, 13, #800 of 1704 🔗

I also think it’s the lack of political will to lift the lockdown. I said from the very beginning, the government doesn’t want to be seen to be responsible for any deaths ‘resulting’ from the lockdown lift, so it introduces some arbitrary rules and slogans and waits for the public to cotton on, get fed up, and then break lockdown themselves. These protests are a golden opportunity for that. The public show that they’re just massive hypocrites and will conveniently forget about being scared and staying at home when there’s some more worthwhile cause to virtue signal about.

22722 ▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Poppy, 8, #801 of 1704 🔗

Yes, the relaxation of restrictions seems to be lagging a couple of weeks behind what people are actually doing.

The masks on public transport is presumably because they know full well when shops and then bars etc start to open up especially in cities it will be impossible to distance and they want people to feel safe (regardless of whether they are or not) and they want to be seen like they are “doing something”.

22792 ▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Poppy, 1, #802 of 1704 🔗

Are they happy to be seen to be responsible for deaths caused by the lockdown do you think?

22825 ▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Bella, #803 of 1704 🔗

As Pooh-Ba ph said, it wasn’t them, they weren’t there.

22852 ▶▶▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to Bella, #804 of 1704 🔗

Ah, but that was just “following the science.”

22948 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Farinances, 2, #805 of 1704 🔗

But then a whole load of people now know they’re being taken on a ride by the media, they’re getting a hammering. I see it on every comments I read online… Yeah it’s only people who comment but where it was all previously ‘ifitonlysavesonelife’ it’s now condescension, downright hostility, ‘mediascum’ is seen every day… And rightly so I might add.

If anyone can stand twitter, just tag it every time they try another false story. Easy. It’s not difficult, it’s 90% of what they spout every day

So, yes, it’s arse covering, but how long can they play this game as that is what they are doing

22671 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Julian, 9, #806 of 1704 🔗

Something good may come out of this – if the death toll doesn’t increase after these marches, then the government can no longer say that the virus is active in the community? Just a thought.

22673 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to CarrieAH, 6, #807 of 1704 🔗

That’s what people with sense will say.

But the media will just ignore it.

22716 ▶▶▶ Nic, replying to CarrieAH, 3, #808 of 1704 🔗

Yes exactly what I was thinking although the government will conveniently forget it

22679 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Julian, 8, #809 of 1704 🔗

I’ve lost track of how often we’ve been told that a second peak will come in 2 weeks after such and such an event.

Anybody been keeping count? By my calculations we should be on the umpteenth peak by now.

22680 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to Nobody2020, 3, #810 of 1704 🔗

Yes. We have daily peaks. Each is a little lower than the previous peak.

22714 ▶▶▶ Peter Thompson, replying to Nobody2020, 6, #811 of 1704 🔗

Ah but it is always the left wing virtue signalers who have been tweeting ” see in 2 weeks time the next wave ” One of the most annoying is Dr Trish Greenhalgh who is ” Professor of General Practice ” at Oxford . She is one of the most ardent ” you must wear a mask ” supporters .
Curiously she is strangely silent re huge street protests and second wave . She is a fraud and humbug.

22796 ▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Peter Thompson, 2, #812 of 1704 🔗

Is she a doctor of anything scientific? General Practice? Then she must know that masks don’t work in keeping out viruses and are possibly harmful to the wearer. So who’s she looking to protect then?

22718 ▶▶▶ Nic, replying to Nobody2020, 2, #813 of 1704 🔗

Exactly and new cases should also rise straight away

22692 ▶▶ matt, replying to Julian, 7, #814 of 1704 🔗

Biggest protests have been in London. London hasn’t recorded over 100 cases in an day in well over a month now. Struggling to find a breakdown which gives yesterday’s number for London specifically, but if it’s over 10, I’ll be surprised. This is in a city of 9m people. Even if you really do think the virus is incredibly infectious, it would be amazing if you had anybody turn up to the protest who actually had the bloody thing.

22715 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to matt, 1, #815 of 1704 🔗

We’re told the mythical R0 is getting close to 1 in London, but not sure what settings this relates to – community or care home/hospital or both

22740 ▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Julian, 3, #816 of 1704 🔗

I’m sorry, but… however much the theory is that they’re going to use this R0 number to establish where we are on the ridiculous alert system, the fact is that nobody has the faintest idea what the R0 is and they never have. The alert system is the most blatant example of political “Look over there! A bunny!” That I’ve ever seen.”

22754 ▶▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to matt, #817 of 1704 🔗

Oh yes indeed, I’m sure it’s mainly smoke and mirrors.

22974 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to matt, #818 of 1704 🔗

Travelled in from the sticks, wearing face masks?

22780 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Julian, #819 of 1704 🔗

Hopefully people will now start to realise that we won’t all die if we are in close contact with others. Yes double standards from Government, we need to social distance and its killing the economy and others don’t have to.

22851 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to Julian, 2, #820 of 1704 🔗

BLM protests trump coronavirus risks. The government and police are more scared of being called racists instead of telling these communist sympathizers to take a hike.

22950 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Lms23, 2, #821 of 1704 🔗

There’s too much pondlife and scum everywhere I look in this mess.

Never forgive or forget any of them.

First thing done today. Direct debit to TV licence cancelled. Quite honestly I have no idea what they are going to do… I will wait and find out. But the BBC and their bias and lies (especially the ‘auntie beeb’ national treasure image they like to portray) have been the worst of the lot of them, exactly because of this position of national broadcaster. Fuck them.

22681 Awkward Git, replying to Awkward Git, 27, #823 of 1704 🔗

Out shopping today 2 “incidents” made me realise how low we have sunk as a nation and how pathetic some people are:

  • in a carpet shop the salesman was wearing a mask. Told him not necessary with me. He said the company is shit scared that they will get reported for not wearing one during “customer contact” even though it is not law and not enforceable
  • In Tesco the wife needed the toilet. The security said they had been opened for customers but someone reported them to trading standards and the manageress and shut them until it could all be sorted out with the council who are throwing their weight around.

Why are these companies not standing up for themselves?

Why are councils overstepping their remit and powers and not being held to account? Waiting for some FOIs to return so maybe will ahem some ammo against them soon.

Why are some people so sad and pathetic and like grassing other sp for nor eason and for not breaking any laws? If they re that scared they can stay at home and let the rest of us live. Cannot really say what I really think as the profanity will be horrendous.

22686 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Awkward Git, 12, #824 of 1704 🔗

David Davis tweeting in favour of masks – off the Christmas card list I’m afraid

22696 ▶▶▶ Edna, replying to Julian, 8, #825 of 1704 🔗

I saw that and I’m so disappointed – I thought he was one of the ‘good guys’ 🙁

22719 ▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Edna, 4, #826 of 1704 🔗

He’s put some pressure on in certain areas, to do with 2 metres and quarantine, getting back to work – better than nothing but stll not challenging the fundamental policy

Steve Baker retweets some good stuff, doesn’t seem to come out with much himself

22699 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Julian, 6, #827 of 1704 🔗


22700 ▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Farinances, 1, #828 of 1704 🔗

The same …

22703 ▶▶▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to Farinances, 2, #829 of 1704 🔗

Delicately phrased, but I think I see what you’re getting at.

22734 ▶▶▶ James Leary #KBF, replying to Julian, #830 of 1704 🔗

I can only assume he’s using it as a means to get social distancing down to 1 metre (unless it’s the girlfriend from elsewhere, in which case other procedures apply).

22726 ▶▶ Rick, replying to Awkward Git, 17, #831 of 1704 🔗

The ‘new normal’ will involve cholera unless the idiots start opening public toilets!

22728 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Rick, 5, #832 of 1704 🔗

Don’t forget Hepatitis A as well.

22730 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Awkward Git, 6, #833 of 1704 🔗

I can understand your frustration. This crisis just shows not only the lack of empathy and compassion with some people but also how many of them are just abusing whatever power they have even though the foundation is shaky.

As Lord Acton wrote: Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

He must be spinning in his grave given how low we’ve sunk.

22760 ▶▶ Paul, replying to Awkward Git, 8, #834 of 1704 🔗

My feelings exactly,the way companies are falling over themselves to implement stupid restrictions on staff and customers is beyond my comprehension,I went into town with my wife today and at the first shop was greeted by all the usual infantalising notices about how to behave in the store and why you have to do it to protect other customers and staff !,this made my blood and I was going to speak to the manager and ask them under what legislation their company thought they had to do any of this but my wife said it was better if I waited in the car !,she needed something from this shop so I thought It was best not to get us thrown out !.I am instead composing an email to send to the head offices of all the retail businesses in our town that are enforcing insane restrictions on their customers to ask them why they feel forced to do it.
I have informed my wife that until all this nonsense stops I will not be going shopping,I think she feels that this is a positive outcome to arise from the ongoing madness !.

22848 ▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to Paul, 2, #835 of 1704 🔗

Unfortunately, it will have the effect of further atomising society, keeping everyone isolated and at home.
I don’t know where you live, but my experience in our local Morrison’s was as near to normal as it could get, versus B&Q which ended in a blazing row with the staff.

23023 ▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Paul, 1, #836 of 1704 🔗

Companies are quite at liberty to set whatever “restrictions” they want on a premises or site they work or operate at and can bar you from entering if they want – in posh parlance “reserve the right of admission” – and can use health and safety, liability insurance terms etc all they want.

My big gripe is they are doing this when not required, all they ahem to do is force the “proper person” at the local authority to issue the restrictions in writing then put in a compensation claim to the local authority for all losses incurred between the start and end of the restrictions.

You don’t want to follow them then do not spend your money there and they will eventually learn. Cannot complain on their websites anymore as they seem to have removed the complaints e-mails and tabs from the “customer services” pages or is that just the big firms that I have looked at?

The councils won’t give this in writing as it makes them liable and all I can say is the companies are getting real duff legal advice.

If I was a company and had the money I’d advertise it everywhere and say “not me, blame the government and council authoritarian arses”.

22791 ▶▶ Bella, replying to Awkward Git, 1, #837 of 1704 🔗

Reminds me of the urban myth about catching gonorrhoea off a toilet seat. Tell me, in those lucky enough to be able to have sex, have they banned the exchange of bodily fluids yet?

22802 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Bella, #838 of 1704 🔗

The Swiss sex industry is on the case with a risk assessed list of permitted positions .

22846 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to Awkward Git, 3, #839 of 1704 🔗

I wonder what the response would have been if you’d asked which aisle your wife could relieve herself in instead….??

22973 ▶▶ annie, replying to Awkward Git, #840 of 1704 🔗

I’m sure your wife is much too decent to do anything of the sort, but if I were a msn I’d go pee against the wall of your council offices.

23018 ▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to annie, #841 of 1704 🔗

To be honest she went behind a skip on our day trip to Blackpool the other week so she will go anywhere if desperate enough, says it’s the authorities fault for not providing facilities.

On biking trips she’ll quite meatily go behind a bush if caught short.

22691 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 1, #842 of 1704 🔗

Yesterday MSM/BBC decided to publish result about HCQ from the recovery trial and informed that HCQ was not effective. It is important for Big Pharma(BBC/MSM) to quickly publish something negative on HCQ as there was a simultaneous scandal with retraction of one paper from Lancet and one paper from New Eng J Med about HCQ (one was scientific fraud the other no control of primary data)
The interesting thing about the published result from the Recovery was that HCQ was used late in patients and doomed to failure. HCQ is to be used early in line with antiviral drugs.
“The #Recovery trial, financed by the BILL GATES FOUNDATION, shortcuts its results (planned in June) to say #hydroxychloroquine does not work. It compares Ritonavir, Tocilizumab, corticosteroids, plasma but they ONLY communicate about HCQ, the day after the #LancetGate .”
We still don’t know whether HCQ is effective or not but we know one thing. Big Pharma and its propaganda machine BBC will do its utmost to get rid of a cheap drug. They don’t like that it is used so much in India and Middle East. Especially now when Iran has HCQ in their protocol and everybody is discussing the lower deaths in its supposedly second wave.

23021 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to swedenborg, #843 of 1704 🔗

One of these HCQ drug trails used vitamin C as a placebo. Vitamin C is an effective anti-viral and as such the HCQ group would seem to be ‘underperforming’.

22694 ambwozere, 5, #844 of 1704 🔗

Another good article from Dr John Lee, well I think it’s good others may have a different viewpoint.


22702 Sarigan, replying to Sarigan, 1, #845 of 1704 🔗

Best graph of the year so far?

22704 ▶▶ Sarigan, replying to Sarigan, 1, #846 of 1704 🔗

22705 ▶▶▶ Sarigan, replying to Sarigan, 20, #847 of 1704 🔗


22707 ▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Sarigan, 2, #848 of 1704 🔗

Oh yes. Yes, that I like.

22706 ▶▶ matt, replying to Sarigan, 2, #849 of 1704 🔗

It’s hard to tell from here.

22767 ▶▶▶ Bella, replying to matt, 1, #850 of 1704 🔗

I’ve got a protesting idea if masks become mandatory. If you wear glasses (or even if you don’t get a pair) and then go to the supermarket and find a shelf where there are plenty of products of the breakable variety (preferably glass) and then sweep them off the shelves. When the staff run over to see what happened say, sorry, but you can’t see, your glasses are all steamed up.

22843 ▶▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to Bella, #851 of 1704 🔗

Be careful of the security cameras…

22709 karate56, replying to karate56, 24, #852 of 1704 🔗

Does anyone know what is the research source of the WHO’s latest make believe u-turn on masks? They claim making everyone on earth wear masks is now paramount – who exactly told them this nugget of utter shite?
As of today, I have chronic asthma, agarophobia and panic attacks due facial enclosure. If anyone demands proof, I can refer them to my GP who is only able to fit me into his schedule in 2 years. Let the mask zealots prove I’m lying, and good luck to them trying to do it.

22710 ▶▶ matt, replying to karate56, 26, #853 of 1704 🔗

I’ll answer your question if you can answer mine: can you name a single thing that the WHO have said or done since this whole thing began in January that seems based on anything sensible and doesn’t appear to have been made up on the spot by a committee of idiots?

22713 ▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to matt, 5, #854 of 1704 🔗

The word you’re looking for is ‘dodgy’. The WHO is well dodgy.

22725 ▶▶▶ karate56, replying to matt, 7, #855 of 1704 🔗

I can’t answer. I’ll add they’ve never done anything sane, ever. I whole heartedly agree with Donald Trump that they’re shit, and he is utterly insane himself

22842 ▶▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to karate56, 7, #856 of 1704 🔗

He’s not insane.
The media have lied about everything he’s said or done. He’s been more right about things than the WHO or the media.

22768 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to matt, #857 of 1704 🔗

More likely as instructed by the CCP!

22841 ▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to matt, #858 of 1704 🔗

Or anything they’ve said or recommended hasn’t been completely contradicted two weeks later…

22732 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to karate56, 9, #859 of 1704 🔗

That’s rather suspicious as well given that many of the literature even more recent ones are actually stating that they are useless for healthy people and can even cause harm.

Apart from the ailments above, don’t forget chronic headaches and dizzy spells caused by the lack of oxygen going into the brain.

22822 ▶▶ annie, replying to karate56, #860 of 1704 🔗

The World Hell Organisation. Chief advisor: Beelzebub.

22720 LongTimeVisitor, replying to LongTimeVisitor, 12, #861 of 1704 🔗

Hello, I would just like to thank the visitors that post comments on the Lockdown Sceptics website as it helps me to understand that there are others who can see that lockdown and social distancing is hugely unnecessary and damaging. I can state, categorically, that I will not under any circumstances be visiting any shop or restaurant, or using public transport that is enforcing the micro-management of daily lives and freedom such as the ‘two metre’ rule and mandatory face-masks – because the thought of having to treat every other human being as if they were sources of lethal contagion, and having to behave in a highly specific manner, causes serious and long-lasting distress to me.

To give context to my circumstances, I am a 21-year-old autistic man and while my life is probably still yet to emerge from its more formative stages, please take my word that this is an issue I feel very strongly about and that it is crucial to me that every appropriate action is taken to bring the lockdown, face-mask, ‘two metre’ and ‘one metre’ rules to an immediate stop, and that Boris Johnson and Matt Hancock are forced to resign in the best case scenario, or otherwise put under very heavy pressure to do so. Precaution must similarly be taken to ensure that, in the event of a commercially available vaccine, it would absolutely not be mandatory or forced in any way, shape or form.

Although the overall situation may well have been improving over the last few weeks, it is senseless and incompetent that the government continues to add arbitrary rules at such a late stage. I also have grave concern that the highest tier of power, including Boris and Matt amongst others, have become all too comfortable with new powers and they are in fact extending them without any meaningful public scrutiny – such as by reducing the frequency of lockdown review dates from once every 3 weeks, to once every 4 weeks. A particularly dishonourable mention goes to the change in law permitting a single doctor to section an individual under the Mental Health Act of 1983, where previously two doctors were required. It is a pure insult to those who are mentally just a little bit fragile, and who would thrive under an attentive and understanding environment where any restrictions of liberty are the absolute last resort.

Afraid I cannot take much more of this and I will give extensive consideration to moving to a new country if the British government have any sort of will to carry any of this nonsense forward to autumn and beyond. By its own right that is a subject I would be fascinated to have more advice about even if it does, at this moment in time, sound a tad far-fetched. Belarus would be one such contender, and I do by fortunate coincidence have some elementary skills in the Russian language – however there are many nations in the Caribbean and Polynesian regions, primarily situated on islands, that I can reasonably hope to have taken much more sensible and proportionate attitudes to the virus. Either way, it’s good to vent my feelings and anyone who has read my comment through to the end is most certainly well-appreciated.

22966 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to LongTimeVisitor, 2, #862 of 1704 🔗

Thanks for your post ☺ I too am watching developments closely re: the long term ramifications of what’s going on (more in social terms, we all know the economy is fucked). I’m doing a kind of ‘pros and cons’ list of countries I may be interested in moving to primarily focused on who’s had ‘ a good war’ as it were. If, heaven forfend, this situation is to be a long-running saga i want to he somewhere where any future reaction will be proportionate to the ‘threat’. Which is clearly not here, sadly.

23022 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to LongTimeVisitor, 1, #863 of 1704 🔗

Great post.

22739 Mike Smith, replying to Mike Smith, 12, #864 of 1704 🔗

It feels like one of those novels about what would have happened if the Nazis had won the war. Who would have collaborated and who wouldn’t?

22742 ▶▶ Rob Tyson, replying to Mike Smith, 15, #865 of 1704 🔗

turns out almost everyone would have collaborated, sadly

22987 ▶▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to Rob Tyson, #866 of 1704 🔗

Maybe. I think there’s a fair number of people who have trusted the government, but whose patience is running out.

22745 assoc, 1, #867 of 1704 🔗

Even allowing for the fact that we are not comparing like with like when it comes to figures (to put it mildly) some countries do stand out. In the West (EU and North America) Covid linked deaths typically run out at 200-600 per million of population but there is a swathe of South Asian countries where the figures are less than 1% of this (China 3 per million, India 5, Bangladesh 5, Indonesia 6, Vietnam 0). Given the row about Chloroquine and the fact that the listed countries all have a problem with one particular type of malaria, isn’t this whole issue worthy of more research? I have taken anti-malarials several times in the past, on trekking holidays, and am now rather glad I did!

22755 Tim Bidie, 22, #868 of 1704 🔗

Quarantine? The only thing I can think of that justifies quarantine is Brexit. Quarantine somewhat removes the big stick of closed channel ports. Hopefully it will not last until the end of the transition period (although that may very well be threatened obliquely in negotiations) but it offers, at this early stage, some kind of preparation, transition away from free trade with the eu itself.

As for one or two comments today about the lingering after effects of covid 19, one of the reasons that I am resolute in my scepticism is due to the fact that have twice had pneumonia, once when I was a teenager as fit as I have ever been in my life, and once more recently as a result of incompetence on the part of my local doctor.

Those experiences have convinced me that the effects of covid 19 are no worse than those of the common colds from which my two bouts of pneumonia derived, either of which could have been fatal (hospitalised aged 19) and both of which took several months to recover from.

The widespread misapprehension of the nation appears to be that a common cold, an influenza like illness (ILI), is harmless. It is far from harmless, but to specific groups, as indicated in public health England guidance to care homes in 2018:

Neurological, hepatic, renal, pulmonary and chronic cardiac disease
Diabetes mellitus
Severe immunosuppression
Age over 65 years
Morbid obesity (BMI ≥40)


The common cold is, in fact, more harmful than influenza to specific groups;

‘Unexpectedly Higher Morbidity and Mortality of Hospitalized Elderly Patients Associated with Rhinovirus Compared with Influenza Virus Respiratory Tract Infection’

And that is what we have seen with the covid 19 common cold coronavirus.

Furthermore, outside of care homes, athletes, cyclists, sportsmen in hard training should be added to the list of vulnerable groups. Athletes in hard training suffer damage to their immune systems and are not only more susceptible to ILI but take longer to recover from viral infections as a consequence of the stresses their constitution suffers from a tough training regime.

‘Training, overtraining, and over-reaching will alter the parameters of immune function that we can measure and is therefore likely to affect the outcome, in the short term with respect to how quickly the agent is eliminated, and in the long term with respect to how quickly previous levels of fitness and performance are regained. This recovery will also be influenced by any psychological effects of the episode. For example, post-influenza depression is not uncommon.’


That is why I contracted pneumonia aged 19. It took me several months to recover.

None of this is news, known about for years. That is why the panic has been so very silly.

Global pandemic? Stuff and nonsense.

22758 Sim18, 9, #869 of 1704 🔗

You are doing a heroic job, Toby. I’d be impressed if you updated this site once a week – updating most days of the week is above and beyond the call of duty.

22763 Dave #KBF, 25, #871 of 1704 🔗

Get Britain back to work & back into education.

That is all.

22764 Bella, replying to Bella, 29, #872 of 1704 🔗

Went to my local wet fish shop this afternoon (not saying where cos don’t want them compromised but ’tis on the coast) and joy of joys, five servers behind a twelve foot long counter. No masks and distancing of not more than a foot. There’s not even a foot when they pass each other. Gloves of course, but it’s a wet fish shop. Although limited to three in the shop at any one time (so the sign said to mollify the jobsworths) there were five in there when I was being served, no-one gave a toss. So if we all know it’s on the wane what are the government really up to? And everyone was smiling. One customer made a joke about unsocial distancing and the woman server said, pointing to a colleague ‘I can’t. He keeps on wanting to jump me.’ How can something so normal be suddenly so exciting?

22765 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Bella, 7, #873 of 1704 🔗

That’s encouraging

22782 ▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to Bella, 7, #874 of 1704 🔗

I can understand why you do not want to “shop” this fish monger, but if you had I would have been in the car & going to buy fish.

You are very lucky to have this type of business.

We all need to support this type of business.

22854 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to Dave #KBF, #875 of 1704 🔗

I’ve been making my decisions in a different way. There are shops that are perfectly cheerful about the whole thing, but clearly profiteering (85p for a peach? No thank you) and I’m now boycotting them forever. And there are others that were stressed and stroppy in the first couple of weeks who have since become very friendly again and are simply trying to carry on providing as close as they can to the service they’ve always offered

22875 ▶▶▶▶ Judith Day, replying to matt, 1, #876 of 1704 🔗

My local supermarket put up all the required notices and lines, etc, and that’s as far as it went. Blissful, stress free, unhurried, mask free, non paranoid shopping.

22808 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Bella, 2, #877 of 1704 🔗

Worth adding them to Toby’s “Open for business” map. Doesn’t dob them in for anything, just says they are open, and if they get a bit of extra business from sceptics in their area, great.

22832 ▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Mark, #878 of 1704 🔗

They never closed.

23028 ▶▶▶ Sarigan, replying to Mark, 2, #879 of 1704 🔗

I gladly give any sceptic a discount on holiday bookings. I don’t have a shop anymore but do have clients come into the office and there will be no measures in place ever.

23080 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Sarigan, 2, #880 of 1704 🔗

This is exactly my point. I haven’t used a travel agent in decades (i make my own arrangements), but if I were to need to do so I would want to use you because I’ve seen enough of your opinions here to know that you are on the right side of the most important issue in our recent history, and I would want to support you. but posting your info here publicly would be more likely to expose you to harm from lockdown fanatics than to gain you much.

But if we had a way of communicating privately, I would definitely message you if I needed travel agent services.

23227 ▶▶▶▶▶ Sarigan, replying to Mark, #881 of 1704 🔗

Thank you Mark, suffice to say I think travel will go ‘full circle’, prices will increase and travel habits will change and will be set back a decade or so.

22972 ▶▶ annie, replying to Bella, #882 of 1704 🔗

‘Normal’ is exciting just now. Like eating is exciting if you’ve been starved.
Let’s just enjoy every morsel.

22769 Stephen McMurray, replying to Stephen McMurray, 1, #883 of 1704 🔗

is there a problem with posts not being put on site. I put one on yesterday and another today and have not seen them appear. There was nothing controversial and the one I posted today would have been interesting to most people I would have thought

22773 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Stephen McMurray, 1, #884 of 1704 🔗

The only time I have had to wait is when I did a very long post with lots of links.

The other thing that’s possible is that the page has so much on it now that it doesn’t load all at once, so you need to wait and scroll down.

I have had trouble finding posts, then they appear.

22774 ▶▶ Stephen McMurray, replying to Stephen McMurray, 2, #885 of 1704 🔗

sorry my cntrl F isn’t working, I found the post now. Apologies

22787 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Mark, 15, #887 of 1704 🔗

I get the impression a few brave souls are actually daring to get a little bit pissed off with the extremes to which the antiracists are going this time, and even daring to show a little irritation! Hopefully the BLM scum will face a serious backlash, or we are collectively as worthless as a civilisation as the antiracists believe.

The crowning glory would be if the BLM liars manage to ensure Trump’s reelection. They’ve certainly resolidified my own pretty shaky support for him, from afar. He’s crap, but at least he annoys the people who most desperately need to be annoyed.

22801 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Mark, 8, #888 of 1704 🔗

It might help Trump in the US. He’s not been great, but would Clinton have been better? Would Biden be better?

In the UK, you’ve got to think there are quite a few lockdown-supporting solid Tory voters who believe in law and order and believe the scare stories, who have been refraining from meeting others and so on, who must now wonder what the government is playing at.

22806 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Julian, 9, #889 of 1704 🔗

It would be nice to think so. Tbh, I find it difficult to put myself into the heads of these people because their beliefs about this disease are so bizarrely alien for me. So it’s hard for me to predict how they might respond to anything.

If the sight of police officers actually kneeling in front of a mob protesting the death of a convicted armed robber in a foreign country doesn’t make people sit up and take notice, I don’t know what will!

22835 ▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to Mark, 9, #890 of 1704 🔗

The Media Are Lying To You About Everything, Including The Riots
“The media lied about the Russia collusion hoax, about the Mueller probe, about impeachment, about the coronavirus—and now they’re lying about the riots.”

Trump is not as crap as you might think. Read this article in the Federalist. The media have lied about everything, and have done so for years.
As for being re-elected, as long as they don’t take him out in a coup or by assassination, they are pretty much guaranteeing it. The majority of the population want the riots stopped by either the Army or National Guard (60-70%), and that includes a majority of Democrat voters. Trump now has an approval rating among black Americans of over 40%. The Democrats are losing, and they know it. This hysterical and violent reaction is driving voters towards Trump, but is probably also because they know they’re losing, and are attempting to cause a civil war, or seize power via a violent uprising.

22856 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Lms23, 4, #891 of 1704 🔗

The problem is, as far as I can see people love being lied to.

Re Trump, I was reading a Trump-hating US NYT journo earlier today in the Mail, of all places, that he thinks Trump is going to win, but then again he actually said on record that if Trump wins “ it’s the end of our democracy, and down that road ….. lie firing squads “, so he’s clearly a hysterical idiot on the topic.

Quite why the Daily Mail thinks it’s useful to publish these hysterical Trump-haters I have no idea.

22862 ▶▶▶▶ paulito, replying to Lms23, 3, #892 of 1704 🔗

And the useful idiots are so “woke” they don’t realise they’re being had.

22793 Mark, replying to Mark, 20, #893 of 1704 🔗

One thing we lack here that would be very useful is the ability to communicate privately. That’s necessary to allow mutual support while maintaining public protection of identity and location. And it would allow us to pass around information about businesses showing good lockdown sceptic attitudes, such as the fishmonger Bella mentioned just now, without putting those businesses at risk of harassment. Toby’s “Open for business” section is great as far as it goes, but it can’t help with active subversion of the laws, which is what we need imo. The more business we can out in the hands of the sane rather than those contributing to the problem, the better.

Don’t know if there’s any way to implement that on this blog software, just putting it out there. If as seems likely the problems of the lunatic response to this disease are not necessarily going to disappear quickly, we are going to need to start to build contacts and to organise for mutual support and activism on a deeper level and longer term.

22818 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to Mark, 5, #894 of 1704 🔗

I think this is an excellent suggestion. Sadly, I think the last sentence in your post is an accurate prediction.

22861 ▶▶ paulito, replying to Mark, 1, #895 of 1704 🔗

Great idea.

22926 ▶▶ Lockdown Truth, replying to Mark, 2, #896 of 1704 🔗

Hi Mark

That’s sort of what I’m proposing for http://www.lockdowntruth.org

It’s very early days but I think we have a long way to go as there may be more lockdowns for any reason, winter lockdowns for flu/CV19, terrorist lockdowns. Whatever happens we will be discussing this lockdown for a long time when trying to bring to account those responsible.

I’d love to have a community website/project going where we could organise ourselves and try to convert the public one by one with world class quality graphics and soundbites.

Please get in touch if you’re interested in getting involved. mail at lockdowntruth.org



23427 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Lockdown Truth, #897 of 1704 🔗

I wish you every success, but for me there are trust issues that usually preclude me from investing efforts in such places. My comments here already would have seen me censored and probably banned in most discussion forums, both mainstream and specialist, either for coronapanic dissent or for opposing antiracism, which is routinely censored as “racist”.

I post here because I agree on the issue, obviously, but also because I hope Toby takes freedom of speech rather more seriously than most, in view of his very public FSU commitment. Most people who claim to believe in free discussion usually end up censoring on politically correct grounds, either on their own initiative or when pressured by the identity lobbies. The latter can be very “persuasive”, in the “nice forum you got here, shame if something were to happen to it” sense.

22978 ▶▶ Lockdown_Lunacy, replying to Mark, 4, #898 of 1704 🔗

Absolutely, at the start of this I thought that it would be over by now. Unfortunately the madness shows little sign of abating.

I’d welcome any tool that helps us push for a faster return to normality, I’ve had enough of this ‘new normal’ already!

22794 Maulinson, replying to Maulinson, 7, #899 of 1704 🔗

Do you need to have part of your brain removed to be a journalist these days? How come no-one from the media asked Grant Shapps the bleeding obvious two part question 1) How long to you think the compulsion to wear masks on public transport should last and 2) what criteria need to be met in order for the rule to be stood down. AARRRGGGHHHH!

22967 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Maulinson, 7, #900 of 1704 🔗

Oh trust me the brains are there, the desire to get to the truth isn’t

23027 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Maulinson, 4, #901 of 1704 🔗

Agree. Very few good investigative journalists left.

Unfortunately we have 2 main types of journalism nowadays

1) lazy journalism – print the pre-drafted article available to all newspapers and use a sensational heading that often contradicts the information in the article

2) advertiser driven – print what our advertisers want and censor what they don’t want

23175 ▶▶▶ Gossamer, replying to Victoria, 1, #902 of 1704 🔗

Sad, but I’ve found that even Private Eye has been very disappointing in its coronavirus coverage and overall stance.

22797 Hopeful, 20, #903 of 1704 🔗

A big ‘Thank You’ from me Toby both for this site and all your other stuff. I think I would have sunk into the doldrums were it not for your articles, the references and the comments from others. Being a strong person is one thing, coping with the events of these cyclonic times something else altogether. It is proving challenging on many levels, so a heartfelt thank you to you and all contributors. Stay strong people. Goodness must prevail. Stand up for what’s right.

22800 swedenborg, 8, #904 of 1704 🔗

The current community transmission of COVID is low and not at epidemic levels. The rates are less than that of confirmed cases in the UK. This could be explained by asymptomatic people or those with mild infections not seeking out testing in primary care. The observed reductions in URTIs and LRTIs suggest that most of the effect on rates of transmission occurred through the encouragement of social distancing.”

Another evidence that the actual lockdown had minimal effect as the thelevel URTiS,LRTIs was already dropping significantly even before lockdown.Also interesting the discussion about co circulating viruses.

22809 Bart Simpson, replying to Bart Simpson, 12, #905 of 1704 🔗

We had high winds and rain here today which demonstrates how antisocial distancing can fall apart.

I went to the local bakery today and there’s a sign that says only 2 customers at a time. However given the winds, no-one wanted to stand outside so there were four of us inside the store and the staff didn’t bat an eyelid.

22827 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Bart Simpson, 12, #906 of 1704 🔗

Yes, that’s why Boris Johnson’s plan of rushing through changes so that cafes and bars can all have their tables outside on the pavement just won’t work. This is Britain. Land of rain, wind, cold weather, with the occasional bit of sunshine just to keep us on our toes! It works just great in Mediterranean countries in the summer, we all eat and drink outside there, but not here.

22865 ▶▶▶ Old fred, replying to CarrieAH, 16, #907 of 1704 🔗

Another crap idea from the guy who wings everything all the time – anything to deflect attention from the daily chaos

22867 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to CarrieAH, 10, #908 of 1704 🔗

I may be being a bit thick here (it’s been a long day with a slight blissful interlude watching a re-run of the 1984 Eng vs WI test match at Lord’s), but if there are tables and chairs on pavements and bearing in mind people are already walking in the road to avoid walking past someone on the pavement, how is that going to work?

22888 ▶▶▶▶ Bill h, replying to kh1485, 2, #909 of 1704 🔗

That re-run was rather good though – there was even a good old fashioned pitch invasion at the end. Classic 🙂

22913 ▶▶▶▶▶ Nic, replying to Bill h, 3, #910 of 1704 🔗


22908 ▶▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to kh1485, 2, #911 of 1704 🔗

It isn’t 😄

23908 ▶▶▶▶ TheyFoughtForOurFreedom, replying to kh1485, #912 of 1704 🔗

While you were watching a 1984 match between Eng and WI on a screen, I’ve been seeing 1984 Oceania vs Eastasia outside my windows. Where a bleating mob holds a 2 minutes hate every thursday evening.

22897 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to CarrieAH, 2, #913 of 1704 🔗

Exactly. The weather here is notoriously unreliable hence why al fresco dining and cafe culture never really took off and never will.

22910 ▶▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Bart Simpson, 6, #914 of 1704 🔗

I guess it might work in Devon where it’s warmer and drier but it won’t work the further north you come. The whole beauty of going abroad is eating a late dinner in the open air, clad in short sleeves and gazing up at the stars under a warm balmy night with a nice glass of whatever you fancy, the waves breaking gently on the beach a few yards away. That doesn’t quite work if you have to sit outside in the north of the U.K., huddled up in a parka against a biting wind 😉 Good try Boris, but I’ll stick with Greece for eating outside at night!

23092 ▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to CarrieAH, #915 of 1704 🔗

I used to live both in Manchester where it rained all the time and Edinburgh where you can get four seasons in one day – the outdoor tables there were never popular as at any given time you’ll never know when it would suddenly rain or hail or wind.

22929 ▶▶▶ ianric, replying to CarrieAH, 4, #916 of 1704 🔗

Another problem with outdoor dining is that many restaurants and cafes don’t have the space for outdoor dining as the pavements outside cafes are narrow. Outdoor seating is fine in the summer but not in winter. If restaurants and cafes can only do outdoor seating, they will loose trade during bad weather.

23094 ▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to ianric, #917 of 1704 🔗

Either way that would only hasten their demise. I read somewhere that many restaurants in Spain, Portugal and a few other countries have closed again as people were put off with the antisocial distancing measures and mask wearing.

22826 swedenborg, 2, #918 of 1704 🔗

Today’s figure from Gov UK 6th June
This is what is behind the Worldometer figures today 1557
There are some contradictions. They state 284,868 people tested positive but the figure is actually missing in the table below. I assume the most interesting figure is Pillar 1 but not reassuring that 499 positive today are not persons but positive tests and 50% more tests than persons. A problem with Pillar 2 but rest assured incorrect figures will be corrected.
Not exactly four pillars of wisdom but glad that they didn’t make it to seven.

22857 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to Mark, 15, #920 of 1704 🔗

Sorry, but why don’t they just effing shut down every bloody business and have done with it.

22866 ▶▶ Old fred, replying to Mark, 7, #921 of 1704 🔗

Hyde Park demo today has blown this one out of the water, I imagine!

22872 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Old fred, 10, #922 of 1704 🔗

Obviously not! Are you some kind of racist? Protesting against the heinous deliberate racist holocaust mass slaughter of black people who absolutely weren’t ever convicted of armed robbery and were actually “lovely guys”, and the British government’s and all white people’s clear and direct responsibility for it is far more vital for all of our futures than any disease precautions.

But obviously, we will all die if we get closer than 3 or 4m to each other in a shop!

Don’t you care about the vulnerable?

22931 ▶▶▶▶ Old fred, replying to Mark, #923 of 1704 🔗

what are you on about?

22984 ▶▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Old fred, 4, #924 of 1704 🔗

I believe Mark was being sarcastic

23059 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Old fred, replying to Julian, -1, #925 of 1704 🔗

He has a very strange and offensive way of doing it, if that is true.

This website is solely about ending the lockdown, protecting the economy and saving lives by doing this – as it says at the top of page. If it is anything else then I will be sayIng goodbye.

Opinions about BLM belong elsewhere – same goes for Brexit.

23065 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Old fred, 1, #926 of 1704 🔗

FFS! I suggest you email Toby to explain that significant portions of his last two Sceptics pieces (on his own blog, that you are posting on as a guest) “don’t belong” here.

If you bother to read them, you’ll note that he explains in some detail the dishonest nature of the BLM movement and the protests. It’s all directly relevant to the coronapanic issue, both because of the way it reveals the hypocrisy of many of those advocating lockdown most hysterically, and because (as Toby himself explains on this very page) the two hysterias – lockdown and BLM – are very similar movements.

If you are still stupid enough to believe in the BLM and its lies, that’s your problem, but try not to lecture people with a better grasp of reality (evidently) than yourself on what “belongs” here without first investigating that question.

23399 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Old fred, 2, #927 of 1704 🔗

Well it’s paid for by Mr Young so I would say he can post about whatever he feels like, and allow or disallow whatever posts he feels like on the site.

BLM is a divisive issue. There is a very clear direct relevance as far as the reaction to anti-lockdown vs. BLM protests is concerned, on the part of the police, government and media, and relevance when considering the extent to which the government really believes we face “a deadly virus” and at the same time allows mass protests with no “social distancing”.

Beyond that, there are those who think that there are fundamental underlying issues common to the virus reaction and BLM, that are worth discussing. I think they have a strong case – which they have made. I guess you’re welcome to try to argue against that case, or ignore it.

A lot of people post on here about Bill Gates, the New World Order, Big Pharma and various other things that are often characterised as “conspiracy theories”. Those are not angles I have looked into much, partly becuase to me they don’t seem overly significant and partly due to lack of time. But those people are welcome as far as I am concerned to continue posting.

We all come to this with our own perspective.

23894 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ TheyFoughtForOurFreedom, replying to Old fred, #928 of 1704 🔗

Would upvote this several tiems if possible

22878 ▶▶▶ Old fred, replying to Old fred, #929 of 1704 🔗

Parliament Square I believe, not Hyde Park

23004 ▶▶ paulito, replying to Mark, 2, #930 of 1704 🔗

Just go with some BLM merchandise. Apparently it gives you immunity.

23029 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Mark, #931 of 1704 🔗

We know that it is utter nonsense.

More scare stories to try and keep people locked down and controlled.

22868 matt, replying to matt, 7, #932 of 1704 🔗

I was just listening to yesterday’s (today’s?) Coffee House Shots podcast- title [i]How the government is preparing for the inevitable enquiry[/i]

Plenty about the operational challenges and how the response has been. Nothing whatsoever about the question being asked about whether lockdown should ever have happened.

We must make sure that the enquiry focuses on this. How can we do that?

22869 ▶▶ matt, replying to matt, #933 of 1704 🔗

Note to self – good old fashioned HTML doesn’t work here. How do we get italics?

22870 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to matt, #934 of 1704 🔗

See the icons at the bottom of your text box when posting. (I got caught by that one as well when they introduced it).

22871 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 15, #935 of 1704 🔗

“ALMOST a thousand patients have developed coronavirus- and more than 200 of them have died – after being admitted to hospital for other conditions, the Scottish Government has confirmed.
It means one in eight of all Covid deaths in hospital in Scotland involved someone who first fell sick while being treated on a non-Covid ward. “
Not very good news for NHS Scotland

22905 ▶▶ ianric, replying to swedenborg, 1, #936 of 1704 🔗

I would like to know how many have only caught coronavirus after being admitted to hosp

22920 ▶▶▶ swedenborg, replying to ianric, 5, #937 of 1704 🔗

I read it as 1000 patients admitted to hospital for other reasons but fell sick with Covid-19 whilst being treated on a non -Covid ward for another disease. One would assume the deaths occurred in elderly patients perhaps admitted for hip fractures etc.

22941 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to swedenborg, 1, #938 of 1704 🔗

There’s also bound to be more than that. They only seem to be testing people when they are well into their treatment / well on their way to the great beyond.

22873 Bella, replying to Bella, 12, #939 of 1704 🔗

Just followed a link to BLM demos in London which took me to The Mail online. Whatever you think of this issue what amazed me was that virtually every sentence of commentary was accompanied my ‘Priti Patel/Chief Constable/Experts urge people to stay at home/social distance/think of the deadly virus/health scare.’ Bit frigging late innit? That’s like using a feather duster to stop a juggernaut. And doesn’t it illustrate, for all the lockdown zealots, that an awful lot of people think unsocial distancing is bollocks and the virus isn’t that much of a threat. Look how empty London was just six weeks ago.

22884 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Bella, 6, #940 of 1704 🔗

Just to put all the hysterics nicely in one basket:

Greta Thunberg condemns ‘police brutality and attacks on the free press escalating in the US’ during Black Lives Matter protests and calls on the EU to take action

  • Greta Thunberg, 17, responded to video of cops shoving a man, 75, to the ground
  • White-haired man cracks his head on sidewalk and immediately starts bleeding
  • Thunberg asked: ‘How long are we going to stand by, watch and say nothing?’

Note, by the way that the incident in question was caught on video and clearly is not remotely anything like “police brutality”, so that should be taken as an illustration of Thunberg’s personal credibility as an observer of reality.

Amusingly the contemptible Democrat hereditary Governor of New York, Andrew Cuomo, responded by speaking to the Buffalo Mayor and throwing the two police officers involved to the wolves in the hope of getting some cheap popularity, but then found that in response:

All 57 members of the Buffalo Police Department Emergency Response Team have resigned in support of the suspended officers “.

Rather an inconvenient moment…

22983 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Mark, 3, #941 of 1704 🔗

All 57? That’s impressive. I am reminded of the time of those murders of police in New York and Mayor De Blasio turned up to speak to the assembled officers and they all turned their backs on him.

23056 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Julian, 2, #942 of 1704 🔗

Yes, it’s a clear display of anger at the unreasonableness of the men’s treatment. I’m no police-worshipper, despite being on the political right (I’m too much of a dissident for that), but I can definitely see their point when viewing the footage. It’s a clear case of throwing them to the wolves for political gain.

22999 ▶▶▶ paulito, replying to Mark, 3, #943 of 1704 🔗

Of course, Greta speaks up. World renowned expert on absolutely everything. Why do people give so much credibility to a 17 year old?

23053 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to paulito, 3, #944 of 1704 🔗

Because we live in profoundly dysfunctional societies with an over-riding globalist culture that is alienated from reality.

22894 Bill h, replying to Bill h, 20, #945 of 1704 🔗

Just back from a short shift on the DT comments section (Janet Daley story)

I’d say that most of the commentators are now in or moving towards the view that Lockdowns were/are a waste of time. The usual Sock Puppets are still active, but they are having a hard time holding the line….


Best Hopes


22907 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Bill h, 6, #946 of 1704 🔗

Yes I always comment on those types of articles in the Telegraph, more in the vain hope that somebody in government actually reads them! I don’t get involved in discussions though, I just make my point and leave. There are a lot of lockdown sceptics there now.

22939 ▶▶▶ coalencanth12, replying to CarrieAH, 2, #947 of 1704 🔗

The Telegraph has been pretty good throughout much of this. I notice that pro-lockdowners seem to come out at certain times of day, probably a CCHQ or Cummings-esque agitation.

22932 ▶▶ Lockdown Truth, replying to Bill h, #948 of 1704 🔗

Hi Bill

I just mentioned your post at https://www.lockdowntruth.org/post/telegraph-s-janet-daley-says-not-in-my-name

Hope that’s OK.



22951 ▶▶ Barnabas, replying to Bill h, 10, #949 of 1704 🔗

Bill, things really came to a head for me this week, as I expect has happened to most other regulars here at LS. That Janet Daley article triggered me to write a 2nd letter to MP today expressing my grave concerns about the harm that the Lockdown is doing to the country and that it must end now.

Putting it mildly, I am extremely unhappy with the situation, watching illegal mass gatherings in central London whilst the Police do nothing and are permitted to go about nauseating acts of virtue signalling.

The government have lost the plot and the police have lost their authority. A truly disastrous situation.

This really does not bode well for a country that is heading into mass unemployment in the coming months. In 2011 there were many thousands more Police in the UK and they couldn’t control the riots. I dread to think how they will manage now if we have similar unrest on the streets.

22906 Mark, 7, #950 of 1704 🔗

More on the basic untruth that underpins the BLM liar movement, from that notorious den of far right racists, the Wall Street Journal (per Townhall.com):

“This charge of systemic police bias was wrong during the Obama years and remains so today. However sickening the video of Floyd’s arrest, it isn’t representative of the 375 million annual contacts that police officers have with civilians. A solid body of evidence finds no structural bias in the criminal-justice system with regard to arrests, prosecution or sentencing. Crime and suspect behavior, not race, determine most police actions.
In 2019 police officers fatally shot 1,004 people, most of whom were armed or otherwise dangerous. African-Americans were about a quarter of those killed by cops last year (235), a ratio that has remained stable since 2015. That share of black victims is less than what the black crime rate would predict, since police shootings are a function of how often officers encounter armed and violent suspects. In 2018, the latest year for which such data have been published, African-Americans made up 53% of known homicide offenders in the U.S. and commit about 60% of robberies, though they are 13% of the population.
The police fatally shot nine unarmed blacks and 19 unarmed whites in 2019, according to a Washington Post database, down from 38 and 32, respectively, in 2015. The Post defines “unarmed” broadly to include such cases as a suspect in Newark, N.J., who had a loaded handgun in his car during a police chase. In 2018 there were 7,407 black homicide victims. Assuming a comparable number of victims last year, those nine unarmed black victims of police shootings represent 0.1% of all African-Americans killed in 2019. By contrast, a police officer is 18½ times more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male is to be killed by a police officer.
The latest in a series of studies undercutting the claim of systemic police bias was published in August 2019 in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. The researchers found that the more frequently officers encounter violent suspects from any given racial group, the greater the chance that a member of that group will be fatally shot by a police officer. There is “no significant evidence of antiblack disparity in the likelihood of being fatally shot by police,” they concluded.
A 2015 Justice Department analysis of the Philadelphia Police Department found that white police officers were less likely than black or Hispanic officers to shoot unarmed black suspects. Research by Harvard economist Roland G. Fryer Jr. also found no evidence of racial discrimination in shootings. Any evidence to the contrary fails to take into account crime rates and civilian behavior before and during interactions with police.”


22924 OKUK, replying to OKUK, 14, #951 of 1704 🔗

The BBC have lost all credibility. Tonight they report on the mass defiance of social distancing legislation by an assortment of leftists, thugs and leftist thugs…except they don’t explicitly state what we all can see: the law is being defied and the Police are taking no action to prevent close association which, we are told constantly, will inevitably lead to the death of individuals.

Nope, the BBC reports positively on this non-observance of social distancing, after two weeks of persecuting Dominic Cummings for some alleged but never proven failure to abide by the lockdown rules (which never involved a failure to socially distance himself).

To finish things off nicely, Chi-Chi Izundu told us that a Policewoman “knocked herself off” her horse…quite a feat I imagine. Where do the BBC get these people from? Idiocy College?

22925 ▶▶ Mark, replying to OKUK, 9, #952 of 1704 🔗

Did they happen to bother mentioning, while worshipping the “protesters”, that the whole movement is based on an outright lie (see previous post, and Toby’s previous Sceptics)? Did they bother mentioning that the latest martyr was a convicted armed robber and lifelong thug?

22944 ▶▶▶ OKUK, replying to Mark, 7, #953 of 1704 🔗

Nope. Seems also that Chi-Chi’s pandering (see what I did there) to the mob extends to not telling the truth about what happened to the female Police rider. The Mail Online states (and has photos which seem to prove it) that a violent thug launched a bicycle at the horse. The bike hit the horse and caused the Policewoman to be dismounted. She didn’t “knock herself off”. I think the BBC might have to issue yet another apology for this one as it seems close to an outright lie and I see that at least one complaint, with probably many more to follow, has already been made to the BBC.

22986 ▶▶▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to OKUK, 2, #954 of 1704 🔗

The horse bolted and she was knocked off by a traffic light.
See the Darren Grimes on Breitbart’s report:
What caused the horse to bolt is not in Grimes’s video. That happened a few moments before. Very unpleasant indeed.

22996 ▶▶▶▶ paulito, replying to OKUK, 3, #955 of 1704 🔗

“Chi-Chi’s pandering” very good.

22934 ▶▶ HopingThereIsAPlan, replying to OKUK, 3, #956 of 1704 🔗

Really hoping there is some kind of deliberate plan behind the protests as a way to build up herd immunity. The bleating of the BBC means the government can’t admit that herd immunity, the Swedish way, was the right way to go, but maybe by condemning BLM protests (“you should not go”, to which every Tory hating protester says “right then, I’m going”) but not actually interfering with these protests they are trying to get people gathering and building up herd immunity. Given the seeming overlap between BLM supporters and lockdown zealots* maybe they are also trying to specifically get covid spreaing among the zealots so that the zealots can learn first hand that it is usually mild.

*Although if one really cares about stopping police brutality and racism surely one should oppose lockdown as an example of police authoritarianism which gives an opportunity for the police to do their worst to both minorities and majorities. And which discriminates particularly against the poor with smaller houses andmore uncertain employment.

23005 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to HopingThereIsAPlan, 5, #957 of 1704 🔗

The measures taken by the govt. will almost certainly impact the poor more severely, though they will also impact large sections of the middle class.

I think that if you either
a) believe in a Magic Money Tree or
b) think you can just tax the rich to pay for it all, without making EVERYONE poorer
then it’s easier to argue for lockdown
I don’t believe in either of those things, and am baffled by those that do, especially the first of them, but there are plenty that do.

22971 ▶▶ annie, replying to OKUK, 3, #958 of 1704 🔗

You can’t knock yourself off your horse. I shoukd knoe, it’s the only way of falling off I haven’t experienced.
No doubt that black man knocked himself against a policeman’s gun.

23002 ▶▶ Julian, replying to OKUK, 5, #959 of 1704 🔗

The BBC lost credbility a while ago now, for me. They made no attempt to be objective about Trump or Brexit.

22927 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 9, #960 of 1704 🔗

Published but don’t know why waiting for approval perhaps some links have taken away to see if it can be republished. Nothing controversial for this forum!

Yesterday MSM/BBC decided to publish result about HCQ from the recovery trial and informed that HCQ was not effective. It is important for Big Pharma(BBC/MSM) to quickly publish something negative on HCQ as there was a simultaneous scandal with retraction of one paper from Lancet and one paper from New Eng J Med about HCQ (one was scientific fraud the other no control of primary data)
The interesting thing about the published result from the Recovery was that HCQ was used late in patients and doomed to failure. HCQ is to be used early in line with antiviral drugs.
“The recovery trial, financed by the BILL GATES FOUNDATION, shortcuts its results (planned in June) to say HCQ does not work. It compares Ritonavir, Tocilizumab, corticosteroids, plasma but they ONLY communicate about HCQ, the day after the Lancetgate”

We still don’t know whether HCQ is effective or not but we know one thing. Big Pharma and its propaganda machine BBC will do its utmost to get rid of a cheap drug. They don’t like that it is used so much in India and Middle East. Especially now when Iran has HCQ in their protocol and everybody is discussing the lower deaths in its supposedly second wave.

They might also not like that the Amazonas state (one with highest infection rate in Brazil) has started to use it massively and death statistics looks good (10 day moving average)


22940 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to swedenborg, 4, #961 of 1704 🔗

I’m defo on board with HCQ since I’ve seen how the media are reacting to it.
I’d like to see some hard facts though. Trouble is it’s pretty hard to see anything when your info channels are dead set against it getting through.

22933 swedenborg, 5, #962 of 1704 🔗

The Saxony School-“Experiment”
Interesting graph in Germany opening of schools in Saxony with normal schooling! Unclear for me whether graph is Germany or Saxony but anyway excellent results.

22938 Back To Normal, replying to Back To Normal, 5, #963 of 1704 🔗

I’ve submitted another petition – to make social distancing optional. As with the others, I need just 5 supporters before it can go for approval by the petitions committee, which is taking about 3 weeks (given my experience with the “end social distancing” petition).
If you want to be one of the initial 5 supporters, please click the link and sign. If you miss out here then you will be able to sign once it is approved. For info, only a maximum of 21 can sign a petition before it has been approved, so don’t circulate this just yet. I will post another comment once it is approved.


The petition reads as follows:

Implement rules that enable social distancing to be optional

The rules should dictate that those people feeling the need for social distancing should indicate this in public by wearing a face mask and gloves. Others may interact with each other normally, without social distancing, but those wearing masks and gloves would be socially-distanced by everybody.

It is time for the government to accept that there is no scientific justification for social distancing, and the policy is being maintained only to re-assure those people who feel the need for it. The policy should therefore be adapted to meet those people’s needs without interfering with the lives of others who do not want social distancing.

22970 ▶▶ annie, replying to Back To Normal, 3, #964 of 1704 🔗

Signed. Go for it. Pummel the bastards.

22977 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Back To Normal, 2, #965 of 1704 🔗


22988 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to Back To Normal, 2, #966 of 1704 🔗

Signed – thanks again.

23001 ▶▶ Back To Normal, replying to Back To Normal, 1, #967 of 1704 🔗

Thanks to those who have signed this. Its now got the necessary support to go for approval, so no need for anyone else to sign this just yet. Once its approved, I will let people know through comments here.

23077 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Back To Normal, 1, #968 of 1704 🔗

Just signed as well.

22949 Dave #KBF, replying to Dave #KBF, 13, #969 of 1704 🔗

Here we go, Lincoln on an early summer Saturday evening. The was about 20:30 on Saturday evening.

So much for the nighttime economy.

The only people we saw, a few mini cab drivers & Deliveroo type drivers, I suspect the mini cab drivers were also doing food deliveries. Walked past two mini cab offices, very quiet.

Ordinarily Lincoln would be bustling with visitors & weekend revellers lettering their hair down after a hard week at work.

How times change.

I know I keep going on about this, for anyone who this annoys I apologies, I am sure your city, town, village or hamlet is suffering in the same way.

22959 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Dave #KBF, 2, #970 of 1704 🔗

Lol it’s way busier in my town! (Large suburban commuter town in West Yorkshire, but way smaller than Lincoln! Lincoln is a lovely place, sad to see it empty 🙁 )

22995 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Dave #KBF, 2, #971 of 1704 🔗

I wish that was just a photoshopped scene!

23072 ▶▶▶ Skippy, replying to IanE, #972 of 1704 🔗

Of course it’s photoshopped. The sky is never blue north of the Watford Gap!

22954 rodmclaughlin, replying to rodmclaughlin, 2, #973 of 1704 🔗

Some of Toby’s readers are probably aware of Joanne Nova in Australia, a climate sceptic. However, she’s definitely not a lockdown sceptic: http://joannenova.com.au/2020/06/sweden-is-trapped-in-an-interminable-deadly-half-lockdown

22991 ▶▶ IanE, replying to rodmclaughlin, #974 of 1704 🔗

Yes, there are some very unexpected lockdownistas – including Melanie Philips, Joanne Nova and, even, Nigel Farage. All of these normally seem able to think for themselves; but yes, JoNova is probably the one who has surprised me the most!

23014 ▶▶▶ Tom Blackburn, replying to IanE, #975 of 1704 🔗

Henry Rollins is a mask wearing, lockdown fantastic. Go figure as the yanks would say

23095 ▶▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Tom Blackburn, 2, #976 of 1704 🔗

I now understand Black Flag’s anthemic punk track ‘Do everything the government tells you and ask authority to tell you what to think!’

At the time I thought it was heavily laden in irony, clearly I was wrong…… 🙄

23104 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Winston Smith, #977 of 1704 🔗

Youthful left anarchists have always mostly been conformists in disguise I think, wearing a “rebellious” uniform and believing anyone who disagrees with them is an evil “fascist” person whom they would like to see violently “re-educated”.

And this kind of thing really brings out the underlying nature of people like Rollins, once they themselves are the establishment.

(There are obviously some left anarchists who grew up to be real rebels. Just not the likes of Rollins, apparently.)

23048 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to IanE, #978 of 1704 🔗

At some point I’m going to have to get around to researching Farage’s attitude to lockdown for myself – I’ve seen him described here as both strongly anti-lockdown from the beginning, and as pro-lockdown.

Somehow post-Brexit (hopefully) it feels as though his work is done, unless there is another remainer attempt to overturn it and he needs to be reborn and kitted out with a magical sword by some moistened bint.

22958 Farinances, replying to Farinances, 4, #979 of 1704 🔗

Any case against Sweden gets *destroyed* at 30:00 in this video:
(great interview with Dave Cullen of Dolores Cahill fame, this time with Irish doctor Marcus De Brun who resigned from the Irish Medical Council because of the treatment of people in care homes during covid-1984).

22989 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Farinances, 3, #980 of 1704 🔗

Thanks for this. The key point he makes at the time you highlight is that any comparison of mortality rates per head of population needs to take into account the relative proportions per age band – especially in the over 65s where most covid-19 deaths occur. He calculates that if you adjust for that, as Sweden has a much higher proportion of over 65s than Ireland, Sweden is doing better than Ireland.

Thinking about it now, it’s obvious.

The comments section is encouraging. Allowing those demonstrations to go ahead unchallenged looks like it is helping “our” cause by making people realise the government don’t know what they are doing.

22960 Nobody2020, replying to Nobody2020, 1, #981 of 1704 🔗

The biggest threat to humanity is now the R number:


22990 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Nobody2020, #982 of 1704 🔗

Or, perhaps, the inhumanity of politicians!

23162 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Nobody2020, #983 of 1704 🔗

Tinxx posted (somewhere on this thread) –

As someone with a fair degree of experience in terms of mathematical modelling, I would humbly suggest that it would be good if someone pointed out that, when we are in the tail of the virus’s distribution, the R number is totally irrelevant. Basically it is all noise now.

i.e. R numbers are totally meaningless now !

22979 Biker, replying to Biker, 13, #984 of 1704 🔗

I love Sunday it’s a day of rest from pious lefty wankers shouting they love black people(they don’t) hate themselves(they do) and want to smash the system(they don’t). Only joking these people are like red wine spilled on a white carpet, never going away not when there is virtue to signal, when there are lies to be told and when there is other peoples money to spend. Still once i’ve had some tea, smoked some tobacco and eaten a bacon roll i’ll want to smash the system, kneel for blacks and love myself too.

22985 ▶▶ Skippy, replying to Biker, 1, #985 of 1704 🔗

Have a beer with your baccy and bacon roll, and you won’t want to smash the kneeling black people in the system

22982 Tim Bidie, replying to Tim Bidie, 8, #986 of 1704 🔗

Regarding ‘Latest ONS data on excess deaths’, evidence of officials covering their backsides against future investigation:

As stated above:

‘…. an excess of 46,380 death registrations compared to the five-year average, and 12,900 of these deaths (27.8%) did not involve the coronavirus (COVID-19).’

The backside covering caveat:

‘Changes to registration processes implemented in the Coronavirus Act 2020 have led to an increased number of death registrations made by doctors, increasing registration efficiency overall; at present, it is not clear whether increased efficiency is a cause or result of an increase in weekly registrations , but some further effects may become apparent in the future for conditions where deaths have a longer registration delay.’


If you then look at Euromomo z scores by country, select age group 15-44 (this group is obviously well outside typical covid 19 ‘at risk’ ages), there is a big spike for England before week 17 that is not replicated anywhere else in Europe, or indeed anywhere else within the UK.


Only two explanations are possible:

  1. Incompetence. England has by far the worst healthcare outcomes for age group 15-44 in the whole of Europe for a limited number of weeks coinciding with hospital clearances in preparation for covid 19 patients who never turned up or:
  2. Propaganda. Death registrations facilitated by a relaxation of the law artificially increased death figures through increased registration ‘efficiency’, so bringing forward registrations to produce a deliberately and (for the government) conveniently timed artificial spike.

The ONS is clearly getting its defence in order ahead of time.

23017 ▶▶ Sally, replying to Tim Bidie, #987 of 1704 🔗

If you look at Figure 4 in the ONS document you linked, you will see that there is no excess mortality in age groups below 50 years, and the Covid mortality rate in younger age groups is visibly tiny. Carl Heneghan’s analysis also showed no excess mortality in the 15-44 age group: https://www.bbc.com/news/health-52807376

So I think the EuroMOMO spike must be caused by timing of the deaths or death registrations. Timing issues can affect z-scores.

23111 ▶▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to Sally, 1, #988 of 1704 🔗

Precisely my point

The provisional number of deaths registered in England and Wales in the week ending 17 April 2020 (Week 16) was 22,351; this represents an increase of 3,835 deaths registered compared with the previous week (Week 15) and 11,854 more than the five-year average; this is the highest weekly total recorded since comparable figures begin in 1993.’ ONS my reference above

so option 2 above: Propaganda, as in convenient timing of death registrations brought forward as a consequence of government alterations to registration guidelines in order to produce the overall mortality spike just prior to week 17 to justify the lockdown.

‘In an emergency period of the COVID-19 pandemic there is a relaxation of previous legislation concerning completion of the medical certificate cause of death (MCCD) by medical practitioners’


‘Efficiency’ that took place right at the onset of lockdown, so, clearly, for propaganda purposes, as Dr John Lee explains here:


Not only, but also::

‘At a briefing hosted by the Science Media Centre on 12 May he explained that, over the past five weeks, care homes and other community settings had had to deal with a “staggering burden” of 30 000 more deaths than would normally be expected, as patients were moved out of hospitals that were anticipating high demand for beds.

Of those 30 000, only 10 000 have had covid-19 specified on the death certificate. While Spiegelhalter acknowledged that some of these “excess deaths” might be the result of underdiagnosis, “the huge number of unexplained extra deaths in homes and care homes is extraordinary. When we look back . . . this rise in non-covid extra deaths outside the hospital is something I hope will be given really severe attention.”

He added that many of these deaths would be among people “who may well have lived longer if they had managed to get to hospital.”


This will doubtless all come out in the Dolan legal challenge but a bit late to save lives, jobs and businesses…….

22992 IanE, replying to IanE, 6, #989 of 1704 🔗

Following Toby’s ‘spring shoots’ comments, I see from politicshome that the government does seem to finally be getting to see some of the dreadful economic consequences coming along soon – and are now wanting to speed up our escape (albeit, any escape will leave the country mutilated and bleeding heavily).

22998 ▶▶ Julian, replying to IanE, 8, #990 of 1704 🔗

Well it’s better than nothing, though he hardly deserves credit for it.

I do wonder exactly how serious he is about escaping. The “new normal”, envisaged by the PM as continuing until a vaccine is found (indefinitely/forever) will severely hamper the economy for many reasons.

23003 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to Julian, 8, #991 of 1704 🔗

Yes, I quite agree with everything you say. All the politicshome article shows is that they are starting to panic at what they have unleashed! Pandora’s Box was nothing.

23046 ▶▶▶▶ Old fred, replying to IanE, 2, #992 of 1704 🔗

Agree – Seems possible that next year’s GCSE and A levels exams may mot happen as only around 30% of pupils will be able to be in school at any time due to the 2m distance

23055 ▶▶▶▶▶ IanE, replying to Old fred, 7, #993 of 1704 🔗

Heavens: a year ago I had some ‘glad I’m getting old’ thoughts over the way the world was going; now these are my dominant thoughts – combined with sadness for the younger generations!

23064 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ paulito, replying to IanE, 5, #994 of 1704 🔗

Same here Ian. I don’t consider myself old, but I’ve lived a rich life that’s being denied to younger people. Makes you weep.

23103 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to paulito, #995 of 1704 🔗

Weep for a while if it helps, paulito. 🙂

Then get back to fixing it. 🙂 🙂

23006 ▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Julian, 14, #996 of 1704 🔗

Yes, the economy depends on activity . Yet the whole idea of restricting freedom to go to each others’ houses, go on holiday, go to shops, pubs, restaurants, theatres is to reduce activity. We are being encouraged to see activity as a reckless indulgence.

It’s not a great recipe for reviving the economy.

23007 ▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Barney McGrew, 11, #997 of 1704 🔗

If they actually believe in their “new normal” plan then I shudder to think what is going on between their ears.

23128 ▶▶▶▶▶ Jonathan Castro, replying to Julian, 3, #998 of 1704 🔗


23124 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Barney McGrew, 2, #999 of 1704 🔗

Barney McGrew

Reply to Julian

Yes, the economy depends on activity . Yet the whole idea of restricting freedom to go to each others’ houses, go on holiday, go to shops, pubs, restaurants, theatres is to reduce activity. We are being encouraged to see activity as a reckless indulgence.

This is a very good point, Barney. Thank you.

We are still in the ‘Action’ cycle (according to some esoteric authorities) until the midsummer solstice. In the UK this year, that is 20th June, 10:43pm.

Anyone of a flexible mindset might like to join a lockdownsceptics magic project ?

Obviously we are all active every day in many ways. The suggestion is that we act, be active, and complete actions, in an escalating fashion until the solstice. One extra action today, two extra tomorrow, etc. Anything involving any sort of activity counts. Apart from p lans to assassinate or send harm to anyone, etc., or things we’d do anyway such as brushing teeth.

For a second or two prior the action, mentally (or out loud if possible) affirm intent such as – “I act/complete this activity/am active to heal myself, society, and the world.”. Your own words are just as good, but no ‘try’s, ‘if’s, ‘might’s, or future tense.

That’s it. A chance to weed that flower bed, tile that shelf, change the oil in the car, phone/meet that parent/child/friend, oil that hinge, deface that poster, dust that window ledge, clean the fishpond, read that article, practice that yoga asana, deadhead those roses, … . (Several of my own ‘list items’ feature here, but they are only illustrative. 🙂 ).

I’ll post this again tomorrow lest it get lost in the 1K+ posts. 🙂

23009 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to IanE, 14, #1000 of 1704 🔗

Introducing quarantine for international travel is a strange way of lifting lockdown. All that will do is add more job losses and failed businesses both here and abroad. It’s a disastrous policy and one that makes me weep as I desperately need to see my dependent family abroad.

23042 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to IanE, 17, #1001 of 1704 🔗

Just saw the report on the Times and I fired off a comment which went like this:

Not good enough. If the government is absolutely serious about avoiding a “jobs bloodbath” as this newspaper reports, they would abandon social distancing and compulsory mask wearing. No sane person would want to go to a shop or restaurant or concert where they have to queue for ages just to get in or end up with dizzy spells due to oxygen not going into the brain.

And utilising outdoor spaces for dining is not workable. This is the UK for Pete’s sake. Land of the unreliable weather where in one day you can have rain, wind, cold, hail with the odd bit of sun thrown in for good measure. It is the reason why cafe culture and al fresco dining has never taken off.

While where at it, the toilets should be opened ASAP. Desperate people have been forced to answer the call of nature behind trees, bushes and even isolated parts of buildings due to the lack of facilities. This is very important especially if we do not want a resurgence of cholera and hepatitis A among others.

23043 ▶▶ Old fred, replying to IanE, 14, #1002 of 1704 🔗

Same thing happening in today’s Sunday Times. 3.5 million jobs in hospitality on the line, plus 2.1 million already unemployed – Boris was shocked, apparently.

23054 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Old fred, 16, #1003 of 1704 🔗

He was “shocked”? What the bloody hell did he expect? And this is the bloke in charge, give me strength …

23057 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to Old fred, 7, #1004 of 1704 🔗

‘Boris was shocked’ : three truly shocking words!

23129 ▶▶▶ Jonathan Castro, replying to Old fred, 7, #1005 of 1704 🔗

These politicians don’t know anything about the real world. They are utterly pathetic.

23155 ▶▶▶ James007, replying to Old fred, 4, #1006 of 1704 🔗

“Boris was shocked”
I used to think these people were elites.
Are they actually stupid? Do they actially think anything though? How do they come to these increasingly hysterical and bizarre policies?

23235 ▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to James007, 3, #1007 of 1704 🔗

I think that’s the bad effect of studying la-la land subjects such as PPE and Classics (no offence to those who have an interest in them) and have never done a proper job in their entire life.

23301 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to James007, 1, #1008 of 1704 🔗

They are elites – just not intellectual ones. Their social elitism and privileged upbringing has made them oblivious to the nature of life for “normal” people. Add to that the fact that they wouldn’t care even if they did understand.

22994 Ginger, replying to Ginger, 14, #1009 of 1704 🔗

In the midst of this insanity, it has been so comforting to have come across this website. I am on it everyday and I find it reassuring to read articles and posts from like-minded individuals who have not succumbed to this senseless brainwashing.

Unfortunately, I have found the lockdown particularly tiring as I live with my sister, an NHS worker and I am force-fed so many lies as well as contradictions on a daily basis. Over the course of this lockdown, I have been reprimanded constantly– going out to exercise too often, going out to exercise for too long, not wearing a muzzle as if I were some rabid animal, grocery shopping with my partner when I should have been going out alone… From what I have been witnessing, there is another epidemic brewing: the NHS power-trippers. Toby used the word panjandrum the other day in his post and that is exactly what my sister has become. She was once an occupational therapist, helping the elderly with their mobility and all of a sudden, she is now a leading authority on the coronavirus (despite the fact that her degree is in rehabilitation, not epidemiology or virology.) She told me last week that we are not doing enough to support the NHS- quite frankly, I think the support is excessive. Clapping every Thursday, jumping of queues at the supermarket, free food all day long at the hospital, discounts at many shops, hotel stays with room service if family members were ill, etc. Of course, it’s great that the NHS workers have been doing their job, but it’s really just business as usual for them. Even during the so-called peak, my sister told me that there were spare beds in the hospital, that the Nightingale Hospital had 34 patients in it, and that even doctors were quite bored. She was sent home early on several occasions!

However, despite the obvious fact that the coronavirus has not been so problematic, she likes laying down the law to self-aggrandise and she is just another sheep blindly following government orders. When you successfully brainwash the majority of the population and you instill a sense of fear, people will generally eat out of the palm of your hand. One could even perceive it as a form of Stockholm Syndrome: the government is the captor and the population is the hostage. The population now feels a connection with the captor and appreciates the captor’s agenda because the captor is there to protect the hostage.

23238 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Ginger, 1, #1010 of 1704 🔗

She sounds like one of those High Priests of the Church of the NHS. I would have told her to foxtrot oscar….

23244 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Ginger, 5, #1011 of 1704 🔗

“Clapping every Thursday, jumping of queues at the supermarket, free food all day long at the hospital, discounts at many shops, hotel stays with room service if family members were ill, etc.

And all just for doing the job they were employed to do (and often not very well, although that’s mostly the fault of the strategic management rather than the staff themselves).

23307 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Ginger, #1012 of 1704 🔗

Poor you, locked down with her. With the 2m nonsense, there’s nowhere tempting outside where you can escape.

23316 ▶▶ Paul, replying to Ginger, 4, #1013 of 1704 🔗

Our daughter works at the local hospital but she is a confirmed sceptic !.The stories she tells me about what actually goes on there are disgraceful,I wish these imbeciles that clap,have rainbows in their windows and generally prostrate themselves before the all mighty NHS knew what it was really like.She tells me that a ridiculous amount of free food is delivered to the hospital by companies every day and that often if the staff in certain wards get it delivered there they keep it all for themselves and don’t share it out amongst patients and staff,my daughter doesn’t understand why these companies are sending all this food,I assume it is virtue signalling.Some taxi firms have been giving free travel to NHS staff and some of the shops here have been giving 20% discount !.
She also says that a large part of the hospital has been doing virtually nothing as everything other than this virus was deemed not important anymore.Also,when all this nonsense started quite a few staff suddenly acquired coughs and other covid symptoms and declared they were vulnerable and had to self-isolate and haven’t been back to work since.
My daughter says this way over the top public adulation of NHS workers has really gone to the heads of a lot of them and they are absolutely loving it,they want it never to end.

23375 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Paul, 1, #1014 of 1704 🔗

Very appalling. Pretty much confirms what the likes of David Starkey have been saying – this is all about the NHS.

This should be spread more widely so that individuals and companies will wake up and realise that they are being taken for a ride and been had.

23464 ▶▶▶ Adam, replying to Paul, 1, #1015 of 1704 🔗

I love this. Pleased to hear of a hospital worker telling the truth of the situation, instead of lapping up all the attention. If I see another viral clip of a nurse crying in her car or telling people off for breaking lockdown, I swear I will launch my smartphone against a wall. It makes me red with rage! Well done to her for going to work everyday like normal to treat the sick, but not expecting OTT praise or adulation for it — the mark of an actual hero!!

23000 Nobody2020, replying to Nobody2020, 4, #1016 of 1704 🔗

An interesting perspective on Samuel Pepys during the Bubonic Plague. It’s the writer’s interpretation of course but still interesting. The main difference I guess is people of the time had a greater reason to be fearful, this virus is not the plague.


23304 ▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Nobody2020, 1, #1017 of 1704 🔗

Of course, they quarantined the sick then, and not the healthy. The Bubonic Plague was much more deadly to all age groups than CV19 but, interestingly, people then, like some people now (the swervers) believed that it was spread by being ‘in the air’. Reportedly even some GPs round here have been telling their patients that its how CV19 is spead, Gawd help us!

23008 Lou, replying to Lou, 38, #1018 of 1704 🔗

Interesting to read some of the comments below about experiences in shops over recent days. I thought it would be good to share mine. We have a small family run carpet shop, we opened last week and yesterday was our first Saturday and we have never known it so busy. No masks, No gloves in sight, some social distancing but more so people just being courteous, it definitely felt more relaxed. At one point there was up to 8 couples/families in the shop and no body seemed to mind that the 3 customer max wasn’t being adhered too! Let’s face it nobody can turn business away at this moment in time. Obviously it was also a great opportunity to talk to people about all that is wrong with lockdown and influence maybe some people who where in the middle. Anyways after several frustrating days yesterday was a good day !

23010 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Lou, 5, #1019 of 1704 🔗

That’s encouraging to hear; good luck with the shop.

23011 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Lou, 7, #1020 of 1704 🔗

Your place sounds just the sort of shop that I would be happy to visit – well done! Hope you get lots of business, Lou

23015 ▶▶ simon hill, replying to Lou, 6, #1021 of 1704 🔗

Went to Lidl yesterday, no queue at the door, no security guard anymore, they seemed to have got rid of that a while ago. The shop was packed, very few face masks. Social distancing has moved down to a metre. It was nice to see.

23198 ▶▶▶ Marion, replying to simon hill, 4, #1022 of 1704 🔗

We went to Aldi this morning, Sunday around 10.30am, and there was no queue outside, no one on the door and inside everyone milling around as normal. As I paid I asked the checkout lad if they had done away with queuing for good and he was a bit vague, but he did say they didn’t have the staff numbers for it….I hope this continues, my son who shops there too says he hadn’t seen a queue outside for a while, so that’s why I decided to go. Had to get me cheap cheese!

23265 ▶▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Marion, 3, #1023 of 1704 🔗

I’ve been sticking to supermarket deliveries, not because I’m frightened but because I know if I ended up stuck in a distancing queue and then had to walk round a one way system, I would lose my temper and probably end up being arrested. But this is sounding more positive, and certainly when I drove past the local Co Op a short while ago there was no queue outside, the door was open and there seemed to be people milling about inside. I may even give it a try later this week!

23306 ▶▶▶▶▶ Paul, replying to CarrieAH, 3, #1024 of 1704 🔗

That’s the same reason I am avoiding shops,all the infantalising posters with instructions what to do plastered all around the entrances and all over the insides are making my blood boil,I have reached the point where I want to ask shop managers how they think this is a good way to treat customers but my wife suggests I should wait in the car instead !.

23033 ▶▶ Moomin, replying to Lou, 2, #1025 of 1704 🔗

Very pleased and encouraged to hear this.

23040 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Lou, 3, #1026 of 1704 🔗

Well done. If I lived or was passing by your area I would visit your shop.

23050 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to Lou, 10, #1027 of 1704 🔗

This is really good to hear. I wish it were the same in my town. Most of my fellow business-owners have gone full-on “stand here; social distance there; use hand gel over there; know your place pleb” mode. I hope it doesn’t last but I suspect some of them are really enjoying the bossy-boots aspect of all this crap. Me, I continue to treat people like human beings.

23073 ▶▶▶ Victoria, replying to kh1485, 6, #1028 of 1704 🔗

Always ask to see the list of ingredients of the hand gel and advise them of the risk of some chemicals that are detrimental to health.

23078 ▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Victoria, 3, #1029 of 1704 🔗

Exactly. Our nannying BID bods handed out in our, (ha ha) ‘Business Recovery Pack’ some anti-bac’ hand gel. I don’t use this stuff anyway as it strips the natural oils in your skin which then cracks and bleeds necessitating the wearing of gloves which I don’t like either. As you say, there are some pretty grim-sounding chemicals contained in them which I wouldn’t want anywhere near me. Plus, the stuff smells positively evil …

23135 ▶▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to kh1485, 9, #1030 of 1704 🔗

Hi – to you and Victoria. I don’t like hand gel either for the same reasons. When this crap started and we couldn’t buy the filthy stuff anyway because all the stockpilers had cleared the shops, we made our own from surgical spirit, mixed with a slug of aloe vera and a few drops of tea tree oil.

I shake it up in an old vodka miniature bottle (however depressed by the bollox, don’t drink this mixture!) Bob’s your uncle, Fanny’s your aunt. Who knows whether it works but it doesn’t dry your hands and we’re still using it against whatever crap the dirty gloves wearers are spreading everywhere.

BTW, we oldies (one in the extremely vulnerable group) have done OK so far. We have never locked ourselves up, use the buses and we will not be wearing masks either.

23060 ▶▶ paulito, replying to Lou, #1031 of 1704 🔗

Good Luck.

23309 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Lou, 1, #1032 of 1704 🔗

Where are you? I need some lino for the bathroom…..

23012 Sarigan, replying to Sarigan, 3, #1033 of 1704 🔗

Is this the real agenda?

An article from 2017 from Forbes talking about the ‘Great Reset’ period – https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnmauldin/2017/05/31/mauldin-brace-yourself-for-the-great-reset/

IMF talking about it June 2020:

And the World Economic Forum:

A search brings up a multitude of sites mentioning the term.

Let’s not forget there is also now a site for the NWO courtesy of the U.N.:

23044 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Sarigan, 1, #1034 of 1704 🔗

“Happytalism”?? What the heck . . . .! (On the UNNWO.ORG page)

23068 ▶▶▶ Sarigan, replying to CarrieAH, 1, #1035 of 1704 🔗

Let’s hope the sheeple don’t get wind of the word as I can envisage ‘Happytalism’ slogans everywhere.

23126 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Sarigan, #1036 of 1704 🔗

That’s a terrifying thought!!!

23114 ▶▶ John Smith, replying to Sarigan, 1, #1037 of 1704 🔗

It’s all bullshit and has no chance of success.

23013 FiFiTrixabelle, replying to FiFiTrixabelle, 12, #1038 of 1704 🔗

Daily Mail…I know, what the hell was I doing?! Regardless, good post by Dan Hodges, but more encouraging are the comments. Vast majority in favour of ending lockdown and ridiculous distancing. Green shoots?


23024 ▶▶ ambwozere, replying to FiFiTrixabelle, 8, #1039 of 1704 🔗

Good article 👍 I get what he means about forgetting to do things like wear masks and anti socially distance, I’d forget in the end cos it’s all against human nature which will win through eventually.

23031 ▶▶ Moomin, replying to FiFiTrixabelle, 12, #1040 of 1704 🔗

Yeah, not a bad article. I obviously disagree with this: ‘When the crisis started, lockdown was the appropriate response. The risk of the NHS collapsing. Hundreds of thousands dead. The implosion of civil society. These represented a clear and present danger.’ it’s interesting what he said about the damage to our minds being greater than the damage to our bodies though. I though that was a good point. I’m still not donning a mask even if we will get fed up with it. Unless the government comes to its senses and owns up for its mistake I still think we’ve got a long way to go since as the infection recedes they’re still implementing stupid rules like wearing face masks and 14 day quarantine. It’s a long uphill road and we really need more high profile people to speak out and, to be honest, the ministers he quotes really need to step up and say what they think in public as opposed to anonymously, otherwise they’re just being cowardly and complicit.

23032 ▶▶▶ Moomin, replying to Moomin, 18, #1041 of 1704 🔗

And the fact is that society has imploded because of lockdown, not the virus.

23070 ▶▶ Mark, replying to FiFiTrixabelle, 2, #1042 of 1704 🔗

Definitely not a good post by Hodges, as usual he’s a day late and a dollar short and spends most of his time trying to make excuses for authority. That’s pretty much what he has spent his career doing. But when boot-lickers like Hodges start to push a return to normality, even as half-heartedly as this, full of kowtowing to the lockdown lies, at least you know that the people at the top are starting to worry about trying to dig themselves out of the hole they’ve created for themselves And for us, though that’s obviously very much a secondary concern for them, at best..

23036 Tom Blackburn, replying to Tom Blackburn, 11, #1043 of 1704 🔗

Andrew Marr show just now – Clive Myrie asked for his views on ‘unlocking’. Clive replies that he ‘has to be careful’ what he says given his employers. Easy for us to read between the lines here, less so your average man and woman on the street

23083 ▶▶ matt, replying to Tom Blackburn, 6, #1044 of 1704 🔗

I started watching it and then switched off when Marr said the question was “how scared should we be?” And the two available answers were “very” or “it’s all over now” and the two people being interviewed were Hancock and some bloke from SAGE. If they weren’t going to give the option “we should never have been scared in the first place” and they weren’t going to interview anyone with a worthwhile opinion, I wasn’t going to waste my time.

23089 ▶▶▶ Tom Blackburn, replying to matt, 2, #1045 of 1704 🔗

Yeah, that Prof is a bit of a plum. I am sure he is the same guy who was on around three weeks ago referring to children as viral buckets. Wish I could find the clip to counter Piers Morgan et al making hay out of his comments. It’s a poor do when Matt Hancock has to come on to offer some proportionality. Good that he mentioned differing voices within SAGE though – shame ‘our’ profs aren’t more vocal / making it to TV

23311 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Tom Blackburn, #1046 of 1704 🔗

Handjob’s latest mantra is second wave … second wave … second wave
If he was offering proportionality, the other guy must have been well off the scale.

23037 kh1485, replying to kh1485, 23, #1047 of 1704 🔗

Notice on local garage seen just now “Help us to stay safe so we can keep your car safe: observe social distancing” (or words to that effect).

To paraphrase John Cleese in Clockwise , It’s not the despair, I can take the despair, it’s the sanctimony I can’t stand.

23299 ▶▶ Paul, replying to kh1485, 1, #1048 of 1704 🔗

I love Clockwise,one of my favourite films,I’m pretty sure I know every word by now !.
I’m glad they haven’t forgotten the safety of the cars,not like my heartless garage !.

23323 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Paul, #1049 of 1704 🔗

Yep, mine too. Watched it recently to get all this lockdown madness out of my head for a few hours …

Yeah, what is it with garages … just had a bad experience myself last week.

23038 Victoria, replying to Victoria, 5, #1050 of 1704 🔗

No wonder the opinion polls are rigged.

“Perhaps the prime minister is too influenced by opinion polling which apparently shows that a fair cohort of the population does not want the lockdown relaxed – at least not yet (maybe never). If so, he is being misled. The pollsters’ question do you support these repressive laws or would you rather just let people die? – can only be answered in one”


23174 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Victoria, #1051 of 1704 🔗

Lol I think I’m a bad person. I’d rather just let people die.

23176 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Farinances, 1, #1052 of 1704 🔗

(Being that there’s only gonna be like 1 in 10,000 people who do)

(Interesting question though – what’s your limit? I don’t think I’d be in favour of lockdown policies for interminably long periods even if we *were* dealing with a plague)

23289 ▶▶▶▶ Katherin8735363, replying to Farinances, #1053 of 1704 🔗

I usd to set my limit by my opposition to “anti terror” policies, by saying terrorists kileld so few as to make it unworthy of intruding on freedom to stop them. Back then I always thought I might consider intrusion on freedom legitimate for a big enough threat. When covid-19 first appeared and we had overestimated its death rate as 2% rather than the real 0.26%(CDC figures) I recognised that 2% wasn’t enough cause to restrict liberty, If it had been a 2% death rate cumulative on every time one is at risk then I might have been more worried but 2% risk just once, and then you’re immune for perhaps a year or more, isn’t so bad. Now I’m starting torecognise that probably no threat can be so big as to be worth crushing liberty for. Life without liberty isn’t worth living.

23322 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Farinances, #1054 of 1704 🔗

I’m all for freedom of choice. Maybe we could have the equivalent of a donor card:
Keep me alive at all costs or Allow me to go.

23284 ▶▶▶ Katherin8735363, replying to Farinances, #1055 of 1704 🔗

Wish I’d been asked in that survey, I too would have said “let people die” ratehr than live in draconian slavery.

23058 Victoria, replying to Victoria, 3, #1056 of 1704 🔗


Love the logo. Would definitely buy merchandise with this logo

23100 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Victoria, #1057 of 1704 🔗

That’s what I thought when I saw it.

23061 Cheezilla, replying to Cheezilla, 7, #1058 of 1704 🔗

Karl Friston waffled on about maths and his mysterious dark matter that some people who must have to prevent them from becoming ill with covid.

Is it just me, or could his “dark matter” possibly be something to do with living in a nice house, breathing clean air and eating quality food. They all help to create ans sustain a HEALTHY IMMUNE SYSTEM.

If we didn’t keep asking mathematicians and epidemiologists but sought advice from people who actually study real bodies and understand how our immune system deals with viruses, then we might be able to get out of this mess.

23062 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Cheezilla, 1, #1059 of 1704 🔗

No, I think it is just you. The issue is almost certainly to do with differences in our very complex immune systems!

23081 ▶▶ DocRC, replying to Cheezilla, 5, #1060 of 1704 🔗

It’s the T-lymphocytes which kill the virus. Roughly 50-60% of us have T-lymphocytes which cross-react against Covid- they presumably developed when we last had a coronavirus (1/3 of common colds are coronaviruses). This explains why lots of people get the infection and show no symptoms and why we reached herd immunity 2 months ago with studies showing only 10-20% had antibodies.

23098 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to DocRC, #1061 of 1704 🔗

Maybe Prof Friston has never heard of T-lymphocytes?

23110 ▶▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Cheezilla, 7, #1062 of 1704 🔗

Knowing the exact mechanisms at cell level doesn’t tell you much about what will happen at human population level.

Neil Ferguson may not know anything about T-lymphocytes either, but it hasn’t stopped him from ruining all our lives. Professor Friston is identifying the existence of a problem with Ferguson’s model at population level. He explicitly leaves it to immunologists to fill in the gaps at cell level.

23324 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Barney McGrew, 1, #1063 of 1704 🔗

Which comes back to my point that maybe mathematicians and epidemiologists shouldn’t be dictating policy.

23101 ▶▶▶ Tom Blackburn, replying to DocRC, #1064 of 1704 🔗

My partner just got her antibody test results.

0.04% – contact with the virus but not enough to become ill. Not sure what that means tbh

23172 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Tom Blackburn, 1, #1065 of 1704 🔗

So that’ll be most of us then

23326 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Tom Blackburn, #1066 of 1704 🔗

It means this whole thing is a storm in a teacup.

23139 ▶▶▶ Anthony, replying to DocRC, 5, #1067 of 1704 🔗

I think it’s interesting that many of us seem to be protected against Covid-19 due to previous exposure to other Coronaviruses. This would seem to suggest that previously living in a non-lockdown world, where viruses freely spread, has potentially saved many lives this year.

Let’s hope that we aren’t relient on immune cross reactivity acquired from Covid 19 to help us deal with a deadlier Coronavirus in the future, as this lockdown may have prevented the mass exposure that would normally occur.

23063 Sarigan, replying to Sarigan, 12, #1068 of 1704 🔗

Watching some live Rugby league being played in NZL. There are cardboard cutouts in the stadium and canned crowd noises. Hope to wake up soon from this bad dream.

23123 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Sarigan, 3, #1069 of 1704 🔗

They’ve been doing it with football games too. Eventually we’ll all be living in a virtual world or interacting via headsets a bit like The Matrix. All the fun of life without the risks. Joy.

23066 Victoria, replying to Victoria, 8, #1070 of 1704 🔗

“The fast-tracking of a COVID-19 vaccine to licensure and subsequent widespread use has been termed Operation Warp Speed. What we must remember here is that vaccine manufacturers are not liable for any damage their vaccines do . Since 2011, drug companies making and selling vaccines are even shielded from design defect lawsuits, which means they have absolutely no incentive for making vaccines less harmful .

The 2006 Pandemic and All-Hazards Preparedness Act also indemnifies all drug companies making vaccines used during a public health emergency or a pandemic. So, vaccine companies, as well as any person who administers, mandates or enforces vaccine mandates, does not face any liability whatsoever if a new coronavirus vaccine turns out to be a catastrophe.

Previous attempts to create coronavirus vaccines have failed due to coronaviruses triggering production of two different types of antibodies: one that fights disease, and one that triggers paradoxical immune enhancement that often results in very serious disease and/or death when the vaccinated person is exposed to the wild coronavirus.

Based on the historical coronavirus vaccine failures, this could become one of the biggest public health disasters in history. And, no one involved will be accountable or face any repercussions. Instead, they will all profit.

It’s also important to realize that only healthy people are enrolled in these human trials , yet only 4 in 10 Americans are actually free of chronic disease. What’s more, according to recent NHANES data, 87.8% of Americans are metabolically inflexible, which impairs their immune function.”


23069 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Victoria, 6, #1071 of 1704 🔗

‘On top of that, vitamin D deficiency is rampant, yet public health authorities are not stressing the importance of optimizing your vitamin D levels to reduce your risk of infection. If you do nothing else, make sure you raise your vitamin D level above 40 nanograms per milliliter, at bare minimum, and ideally 60 ng/mL, before this fall, when another predicted “second” wave of COVID-19 may hit.” [UK measures in nmol/L so need to convert numbers]

All of us especially BAME must ensure that we optimise our vitamin D levels.

23071 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Victoria, 9, #1072 of 1704 🔗

Trouble is the NHS has terrified everyone witless about the dangers of sunlight. Surely far better to get Vitamin D through diet and exposure to natural light than taking supplements which can have very serious side-effects.

23109 ▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to kh1485, #1073 of 1704 🔗

There is a UK doc, John Campbell,,who discusses vitamin D at length (this is only one of his videos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5yVGmfivAk ) accompanied by sound data. There’s no danger in taking 25mg Vitamin D daily unless you have really serious health conditions. I read or heard – BUT STRESS I DO NOT KNOW – that if you are on cholesterol lowering drugs that can hamper Vitamin D benefits as cholesterol is needed to help Vit D ‘perform’. Please, some medic or scientist here correct me if I’m wrong. I do not want to give out false or misleading information.

23118 ▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Bella, 8, #1074 of 1704 🔗

I am commenting here based on personal experience. When you have seen a loved one basically being experimented on by doctors who have no clue how drugs interact and you have to deal with the consequences of their actions on a daily basis (i.e. dealing with a grief), you become pretty suspicious of BigPharma/the medical establishment (‘side-effects’ are always presented as something that probably won’t happen but they are real and devastating, believe me). Combine that with the lies that are promulgated to ensure wide-spread arse-covering and you become even more cynical. As I have said on this forum before, when you see and experience what I have, it is very hard not be be bitter about the NHS. I couldn’t give a shit about ‘studies’ what I cared about was how my mum’s health was devastated over a period of 36 years and how I was ignored and belittled by doctors who supposedly knew best.

23254 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to kh1485, 1, #1075 of 1704 🔗

I understand. My sympathies.

23305 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Bella, #1076 of 1704 🔗

Sorry, read that back and realised it may have come out as a rant. Really sorry …

23136 ▶▶▶▶▶ paulito, replying to Bella, 3, #1077 of 1704 🔗

Indeed Bella, Cholesterol is needed to synthesise vitamin D. Don’t know if you follow Dr Kendrick. His blog has lot’s of info on this topic. https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/

23328 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Bella, #1078 of 1704 🔗

Suggest you read Malcolm Kendrick’s books The Great Cholesterol Con and Statin Nation.

23497 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ BTLnewbie, replying to Cheezilla, #1079 of 1704 🔗

Also Kendrick’s book “Doctoring data”. An eye-opener.

23276 ▶▶▶▶ Victoria, replying to kh1485, 2, #1080 of 1704 🔗

Yes, unfortunately the NHS is in cahoots with skin cancer charities to scare us to death about the dangers of sunlight and this results in people never getting any sunlight on their skins (indoors all the time or covered with toxic sunscreen all the time). If we are healthy/healthy nutrient levels then daily SAFE sun expose will not lead to skin cancer. Suggested resources to improve knowledge and know how to improve your levels safely are http://www.mercola.com , https://vitamindwiki.com

Sufficient safe sun exposure normally results in the body producing 10,000 IU (250mcg) Vitamin D per day. It is however imperative to expose sufficient skin (face and hands only will not do), to take it with fat (fat soluble) and to have sufficient cholesterol in your body to convert it. Keep in mind that sun exposure in the UK from October to March will not make vitamin D as the sun is too low in the sky. Also people with darker skin needs to spend more time in the sun to produce vitamin D – Therefore more BAME covid deaths?

Always take vitamin D supplements with vitamin K2 and Magnesium and this will reduce the build up of calcium in the blood (when conventional medicine refer to vitamin D toxicity/dangers they refer to Calcium build up in blood). You do not want Calcium in your blood but in the bones and teeth.

It is recommended that we get a baseline of our vitamin D levels (vitamin D test) and this will then guide us on how much to supplement. Keep in mind the UK laboratories ranges are much lower than the 40 – 60 ng/mL (100 – 150 nmol/L); see my comment above. Your doctor will therefore warn you against achieving higher levels and scare you into oblivion.

If you are very deficient you will need to supplement with Vitamin D3 (not synthetic vitamin D2 that is normally prescribed by your doctor). Consider 20,000 IU per day until your levels improve and then you can reduce to around 4,000IU per day (always with vitamin K2, Magnesium).

Unfortunately Vitamin D rich foods are not sufficient to improve very deficient levels up to optimised levels, but include them in your diet.

23314 ▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Victoria, 1, #1081 of 1704 🔗

Sorry, after my experience (and it’s a horror story, and one which I will never, ever forgive the NHS for), I will take my chances: good diet, exercise, exposure to sunlight and avoid the routine testing that doctors insist is for my own good.

23346 ▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Victoria, 1, #1082 of 1704 🔗

If I’m being cynical here, its all a ploy to get people to pay for overpriced suncream and moisturiser with SPF. The latter especially targets women, I remember a few years ago, magazines kept banging on about moisturiser with SPF15 is all you need. Now they’re recommending that you go higher.

Not to mention that the big yellow thing in the sky is free – we don’t need to pay to get vitamin D naturally however there is no money in that for big pharma, skin cancer charities and beauty companies.

23491 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Bart Simpson, #1083 of 1704 🔗

I agree. I read a very interesting book many years ago that totally transformed how I thought about my own health: Trick and Treat by Barry Groves. It totally demolishes all the medically-perceived wisdoms.

And, with suncream, it’s always got a very short shelf-life so they can keep on flogging it at astronomical prices. Plus, there are some pretty nasty ingredients in them. Never bother with it now: after all, my skin tells me when I’ve had enough sun, by turning pink!

23074 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Victoria, 16, #1084 of 1704 🔗

Shame they spent the most important time of year in the northern hemisphere for starting to get some exposure to sunlight closing parks and beaches and telling people to hide at home….

23117 ▶▶▶▶ Judith Day, replying to Mark, 8, #1085 of 1704 🔗

Yes, what better way to ensure people are not fit enough to fight a virus, thus ensuring the maximum number of deaths, as ‘predicted by the experts’!

23181 ▶▶▶▶ Gossamer, replying to Mark, 4, #1086 of 1704 🔗

Yet another of the reasons why this whole policy is nothing short of homicidal.

23096 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Victoria, 4, #1087 of 1704 🔗

You should optimise them anyway, not just because you’re terrified of a second covid wave. Fear supresses your immune system.

23105 ▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Victoria, 1, #1088 of 1704 🔗

This should be widely circulated as I am sure not many people are aware of that.

23107 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Victoria, 6, #1089 of 1704 🔗

Of course, such views have already been neutralised by smearing you as a tinfoil hat-wearing ‘anti-vaxxer’. You’re not only paranoid, but dangerously undermining efforts to ‘keep us safe’.

This from today’s Guardian:

“While teams around the world race to create a vaccine for Covid-19, the anti-vaxxers are racing to convince people that it will be dangerous. ”


23184 ▶▶▶ Gossamer, replying to Barney McGrew, 4, #1090 of 1704 🔗

With my linguistics hat on, I find it telling that when a group is being discredited, their name is often preceded with “the” (e.g. “the feminists”). “The anti-vaxxers” is a way in which a very diverse range of people can be clumped together as a homogeneous bunch of shrieking nutcases.

23285 ▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to Barney McGrew, 3, #1091 of 1704 🔗

Except, of course, with the same breath they’ll say that having antibodies to the virus doesn’t mean you’re immune.
Which then begs the question what the vaccine is for, especially as its disappearing from the population before they can test it properly….

23505 ▶▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Lms23, #1092 of 1704 🔗

I think they want to keep vaccinating us every six months; probably building up and maintaining a list of new viruses as they come along.

23145 ▶▶ ianric, replying to Victoria, 10, #1093 of 1704 🔗

If people who oppose vaccines are luddite crackpots, why do vaccine companies have immunity from lawsuits if they feel their products are so safe.

23154 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to ianric, 4, #1094 of 1704 🔗


See I’m pretty much in favour of all vaccines that don’t need to be repeated (anything that’s one and done, given in childhood and protects you for life). However, I never about this indemnity thing before now. It’s making me question the entire industry. You should have to be able to verify a vaccine is at least 99% safe (there is room for error, but only in a tiny minority of people – I don’t know about you but I don’t want even 1 in a hundred children developing potentially harmful side effects) before it gets anywhere near a child’s bloodstream.

23264 ▶▶▶▶ Marion, replying to Farinances, 2, #1095 of 1704 🔗

There is a long YouTube video – an interview with the nephew of John F Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy’s son. He is an environmental lawyer, and was first bringing lawsuits against those who poisoned rivers in the USA with mercury. A woman wrote to him telling him to investigate the mercury in vaccines given to babies. He did his own research and found that the incidents of autism in the US has increased exponentially since certain vaccines for babies were introduced in 1989. The figure he quoted was one male in 25 affected to some degree in the US. I find this figure almost unbelievable, and was very disturbed by it. I watched the video because of all this present talk about how a vaccine must be found for this idiotic virus, and because of all the controversy surrounding Bill Gates and what he did in India with his vaccination programme. I was always on board with vaccinations, both my children were fully vaccinated as babies…but I worry for my new born grandson; my daughter waves my concerns away, but I had to say something to her, even if it’s just to ask the doctor if her son can have separate vaccines and not the triple MMR. The leaflet given out with the vaccinations to doctors apparently warns of risk of autism – this is the manufacturer’s leaflet. And of course, no one has any come back against these manufacturers, in the US they have been given immunity from prosecution. I find it all very, very worrying and deeply disturbing. I hope and pray Mr Kennedy is wrong, an anti-vax nutter…he seemed pretty sane though, for a man who is deeply concerned.

23374 ▶▶ Sylvie, replying to Victoria, #1096 of 1704 🔗

Victoria, you write that ‘ vaccine manufactures are not liable for any damage their vaccines do’ and cite the 2006 PAPHAct. That is true in the USA, since the 1988 swine flu vaccine episode involving multiple Guillaume Barre Syndrome claims prompted the US Govt to assume liability instead. The position is very different in the EU, where individuals can take legal action in their nation states against vaccine manufacturers, following the Sanofi case decided by the ECJ in 2017. See:
Unfortunately, now the UK has left the EU, this may no longer be the case, and US drug manufacturers will doubtless pressure the UK govt to pick up the bills for vaccine damage just as in the US.

23067 Skippy, 4, #1097 of 1704 🔗

The Health Boob on the Beeb. He’s a wanker

23088 John P, replying to John P, 26, #1098 of 1704 🔗

Hi everyone, I took a complete break from the issue at hand yesterday. I find it useful to take regular breaks from it. Like many people here I find it very difficult to deal with this and being a single man who lives alone – and who has for the last ten years worked from home – I have been particularly isolated in the past two and a half months.

I have a friend on the other side of the fence on this issue who I occasionally communicate with via e-mail. My friend read French and German at Cambridge in the late 1980s and works for the European parliament as a translator. I have tried to reason with him on this issue – without success.

This is an excerpt from his latest e-mail:

“With all the measures in place, UK deaths where Covid19 was on the death certificate have racked up about 40,000 to date. Without the measures I am in no doubt that it would have been into six figures by now.”

This is what we are up against! Even people who regard themselves as intelligent and informed have fallen in love with the mainstream narratives on the coronavirus. In my reply I simply directed him to the interview that Dr John Lee recently gave to James Delingpole. It still has less than 10,000 views, but in my (humble) opinion is the best piece on this and by some margin.I plug it again here:


23090 ▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to John P, 12, #1099 of 1704 🔗

I have recently had a similar experience. She wanted documentary proof that herd immunity would work, and by what date, before she would budge from supporting extending the lockdown. I kept saying to her “You’re still talking about the virus. What about the damage caused by the lockdown?” But they don’t see it.

Does your friend not recognise that the official figures are not all for deaths caused by the virus?

23097 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Mike Smith, 12, #1100 of 1704 🔗

Is he not capable of seeing that “hundreds of thousands of deaths” is simply not an existential level emergency issue anyway in a country that incurs around 600,000 deaths every year anyway, mostly of pretty much the same people.

23113 ▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to Mark, 5, #1101 of 1704 🔗

It would appear not. The figures are never put in their proper perspective.

23165 ▶▶▶ Cruella, replying to Mike Smith, 7, #1102 of 1704 🔗

Me, I don’t want proof of anything. The swabs are unreliable, the immunology tests meaningless and therefore so are all the stats on infection rates. Stats on deaths, meaningless for the same reason and because everyone and anyone is being categorised as a Covid death when they aren’t. So I don’t need evidence, all I want is the right to choose how I live and how much I want to risk or not and for others to do the same.

23360 ▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to Cruella, #1103 of 1704 🔗

I agree.

23093 ▶▶ Mark, replying to John P, 11, #1104 of 1704 🔗

It is incredibly frustrating. I don’t doubt your friend’s underlying intelligence, but it’s very clear that intelligence is no defence against profound stupidity on this issue. Clearly there is “functional stupidity” at work here, but that just moves the question on to explaining why that should be the case.

One possibility is ignorance, both in the sense of not knowing basic facts and in the sense of “knowing” things that are untrue, due mostly to media propaganda. And fear of being an outsider can generate willful ignorance.

Another possible explanation is fear, since we know fear can override reason and make people functionally stupid, and fear has clearly been a big issue here.

In theory, intelligence should be some defence against fear, but not necessarily sufficient if there is ignorance and widespread propaganda as there has been over this issue.

23112 ▶▶▶ John P, replying to Mark, 12, #1105 of 1704 🔗

Well, I agree. It is my contention is that this is essentially all about human psychology and fear.

We clearly have only a limited ability to properly evaluate risk. Risk is present in almost all human activities.

In my view there is a “disconnect” between the way that the majority seem to view this virus (that it is some sort of plague of Biblical proportion) and the reality of this virus (which is that it is closer to a mild flu). And that can only have come from the exaggerated mainstream narratives about it.

23125 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to John P, 4, #1106 of 1704 🔗

It’s a combination of two things imo – first the covid media narrative that has constantly highlighted horrible cases and exaggerated fears, and second the normal media narrative which pays virtually no mind to flu and colds and rarely reports the number of deaths from them nor focuses on the hard cases from both those diseases.

The latter is superficially healthy in itself, because fortitude in the face of such things is a virtue and is encouraged by not dwelling on them, but in this particular context it created ignorance and complacency which rendered the sudden, aggressive campaign of fear propaganda surrounding covid far more effective.

23186 ▶▶▶▶ Gossamer, replying to John P, 4, #1107 of 1704 🔗

But I will never, ever understand. We all have access to the same information – so why can’t other people use the brains they were born with and do a bit of extra reading? Why are they so easily manipulated, despite every shred of evidence? My tolerance for humanity’s foibles has never been lower.

23336 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Gossamer, #1108 of 1704 🔗

Because you have to know where to look.

Before this, I took little interest in current affairs and never went anywhere near the MSM. When covid kicked off, not knowing any better I saught my info from paywall-free Grad and the BBC. So I was happy to lockdown – thinking it would be for three weeks or so. I confess I actually washed my shopping a couple of times. Then, thank God, someone in the dreadful Grad comments pointed me in the direction of Hector Drummond. From there, I found OffG and eventually this wonderful site. I count myself lucky – or I might still be washing my shopping!

23363 ▶▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to Gossamer, #1109 of 1704 🔗

“But I will never, ever understand.”

Human beings are only partly guided by logic. I read somewhere that people will make decisions based on emotion and then construct narratives to justify the positions and actions they then take.

23533 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to John P, #1110 of 1704 🔗

The Righteous Mind: Why Good People are Divided by Politics and Religion
This book, possibly. A good one, anyway, by an unusually open minded liberal (in US terms).

23251 ▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to John P, 2, #1111 of 1704 🔗

John, there’s also the phenomenon of Commitment and Consistency, described by Robert Cialdini in his book Influence. It’s a “weapon” of persuasion. Once you commit to an idea it is harder to backtrack and even harder if you commit in writing and to friends.

So if you change your behaviour and declare it due to a reason, the more doubt in that reason has no effect on your commitment. Unless you find away to snap out of it.

It’s the reason why long after the Korean war, US prisoners who were captured by the Red Communists, still believe that Communism is a better system than capitalism. They were never tortured, just made to sign and agree to things like “America isn’t perfect” and “Communism can be effective”. Then they had their names declared over the tannoy every day: Private James believes America isn’t perfect etc etc.

23391 ▶▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to mhcp, 1, #1112 of 1704 🔗

Well, at the start of this business I was undecided, erring on the side of a short “lockdown” possibly being justifiable. I continued to consider the subject and came round to the view that it wasn’t, based partly on the evidence and partly on considering the wider issues.

I doubt many people have thought a great deal about how many people die every year, how old they are, and what they die of. I certainly hadn’t.

23333 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to John P, 1, #1113 of 1704 🔗

Not just the MSM. Don’t forget the government took its first advice from “the nudge unit”. Also, the government have bribed the most strident newspapers and social media is being censored and manipulated by thte military and Bill’s friends.

23366 ▶▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to Cheezilla, #1114 of 1704 🔗

Yes, it’s difficult to know who is most to blame for all of this at times!

23099 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to John P, 6, #1115 of 1704 🔗

His job description probably explains why he is pro-lockdown!

23108 ▶▶▶ John P, replying to kh1485, 1, #1116 of 1704 🔗

Well, predictably he is a Remainer, but he told me a few years ago that he thinks the EU is in urgent need of reform.

23106 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to John P, 2, #1117 of 1704 🔗

Try putting it in terms of QALYs or number of days of extra deaths. (Not to mention that Covid deaths have been exaggerated, obviously).

23368 ▶▶▶ John P, replying to Barney McGrew, 1, #1118 of 1704 🔗

I’ve sent him Dr John Lee’s interview with James Delingpole. My friend seems entrenched in his view, so I doubt that there is anything I can say to change it.

23161 ▶▶ Cruella, replying to John P, #1119 of 1704 🔗

Maybe your friend will question things more rigorously when he stops being paid to sit at home scratching his “highly educated” arse.

23370 ▶▶▶ John P, replying to Cruella, #1120 of 1704 🔗

I don’t know if he is. I asked him if he was being furloughed and he didn’t answer.

23277 ▶▶ djaustin, replying to John P, 1, #1121 of 1704 🔗

There are 3 million 80+ in the UK population. An individual fatality rate of only 1% would give the observed 30000 deaths in this age group if EVERYONE over 80 had had the infection. This is certainly not true. Nowhere near. In fact nursing home data suggests a mortality rate of 10% in this vulnerable age group. Prevalence surveys suggest at most, 1/7 have raised antibodies.

Still don’t think five figures is possible?

23281 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to John P, 3, #1122 of 1704 🔗

You might point out that the U.S. states that has the most stringent lockdown also had more cases and deaths from CV19.
66% of cases in New York city occurred at home, and 80% hadn’t been on public transport.
If he’s also basing his 6-figure death toll on Ferguson’s random-number generator, you might point him to Ferguson’s other epidemic predictions, one of which was in the order of 70 million percent wrong:

“Imperial College epidemiologist Neil] Ferguson was behind the disputed research that sparked the mass culling of eleven million sheep and cattle during the 2001 outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease. He also predicted that up to 150,000 people could die. There were fewer than 200 deaths. . . .

In 2002, Ferguson predicted that up to 50,000 people would likely die from exposure to BSE (mad cow disease) in beef. In the U.K., there were only 177 deaths from BSE.

In 2005, Ferguson predicted that up to 150 million people could be killed from bird flu. In the end, only 282 people died worldwide from the disease between 2003 and 2009.

In 2009, a government estimate, based on Ferguson’s advice, said a “reasonable worst-case scenario” was that the swine flu would lead to 65,000 British deaths. In the end, swine flu killed 457 people in the U.K.

Last March, Ferguson admitted that his Imperial College model of the COVID-19 disease was based on undocumented, 13-year-old computer code that was intended to be used for a feared influenza pandemic, rather than a coronavirus. Ferguson declined to release his original code so other scientists could check his results. He only released a heavily revised set of code last week, after a six-week delay.

So the real scandal is: Why did anyone ever listen to this guy?”

23102 Tyneside Tigress, 29, #1123 of 1704 🔗

Good morning friends. Two articles caught my eye this morning. Firstly, our Dear Leader, the lesser spotted Johnson, has been clocked playing tennis in the US Ambassador’s residence. Nice! Many of us wondered why he appeared to be missing in action, now we know he was usefully employed attending to his physical well-being, aka, social life. Meanwhile, my elder son, unable to see his girlfriend overnight under threat of a criminal record, pointed out he has been in the relationship longer than Dear Leader and his latest flame.


Now, more significantly, from my local rag, a rather interesting and somewhat inconvenient analysis of deaths in the county’s hospitals. Seems deaths peaked in the first week of April, with April 1 being the highest death day. Given where we are, that we are an essentially rural populace, and that we see a surge of visitors in mid March every year – the overflow of Cheltenham Festival attendees – it would appear that the virus was circulating at least 21 days before April 1, before lockdown took effect, and before Cheltenham. Conclusion – lockdown, and Cheltenham, had no effect at all.


23115 RDawg, replying to RDawg, 51, #1124 of 1704 🔗

Morning all!

Last night I went over to my best friend’s house for the first time since lockdown. I saw his wife, child and we ate dinner together. It was such a fun evening. No social distancing. We just watched movies and had a laugh. My mental well-being has significantly improved from this visit.

I encourage you all to break these ridiculous rules and go and see as many people as possible. It will make you feel so much better!

23119 ▶▶ annie, replying to RDawg, 10, #1125 of 1704 🔗

Good on you. Humans need humans.

23160 ▶▶ ambwozere, replying to RDawg, 4, #1126 of 1704 🔗

Sounds like a great evening so pleased you did it. I’m off for my normal (no social distancing here) dance lesson soon well it is outside as we can’t hire a hall but it’ll do for the mental health fix.

23191 ▶▶ Gossamer, replying to RDawg, 2, #1127 of 1704 🔗

I would love to do the same – if only I still liked my friends! If ever I saw them again, I’m not convinced I could restrain myself from screaming at them to wake from their stupor…

23242 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to RDawg, 3, #1128 of 1704 🔗

Glad you had a wonderful day. That’s what the lockdownistas are forgetting – we need that human contact to thrive.

23116 Victoria, 1, #1129 of 1704 🔗

Catherine Austin Fitts of solari.com interviews James Corbett about his new documentary, Who Is Bill Gates? They go beyond the focus on Gates to discuss the syndicate that he is leading , the business model it relies on , and the new form of collateral that will underlie the digital economy: the human body .

https://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/there-are-fates-worse-death-catherine-austin-fitts-exposes-injection-fraud ?

23120 annie, replying to annie, 35, #1130 of 1704 🔗

Speaking on BBC’s Liesnight programme, Polizeiübergruppenführerin Asfoetida Dickhead today expressed ‘shock and outrage’ at the way police in Zombieville had been asked to confront violent protesters.
‘This isn’t the job my officers have been trained for,’ she said. ‘Their job is to use drones to spy an people going for country walks and then expose them to public anger. To act on reports from zealous citizens about grandmothers secretly visiting their grandchildren. To hound families out of their front gardens and check that no one at a barbecue is using a lavatory. To harass people sitting in public parks. To inspect shopping in shopping trolleys and padlocks on children’s playgrounds. Generally, to spread terror and despondency and kill off the faintest signs that anybody, anywhere, may be enjoying themselves.
‘This is what they have been trained for and they do it dam’ well,’ said Dickhead. ‘It isn’t their job to maintain order on the streets. If you aren’t a protester, you have to stay home and not spread the virus. If you stay home you are safe from any disorder on the streets.’
She did, however, condemn the violence perpetrated by some of the protesters. ‘Let’s get one thing straight. Only one sort of boot is entitled to stamp on human faces in today’s Zombieland, and that is the boot on the foot of one of my officers.’

23132 ▶▶ IanE, replying to annie, #1131 of 1704 🔗

Yes, but should one laugh or cry?

23141 ▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to annie, 3, #1132 of 1704 🔗

Hear, hear! Great post. ‘Speaking on BBC’s Liesnight programme, Polizeiübergruppenführerin Asfoetida Dickhead…’

Gave us a good laugh, thanks.

23144 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to annie, #1133 of 1704 🔗

Particularly liked the asfoetida. 🙂

(Are you an O’Brian fan ?)

23150 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to JohnB, #1134 of 1704 🔗

As in Conor Cruise?

23166 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to annie, #1135 of 1704 🔗

As in Patrick. Author of Master & Commander, etc. One of his heroes (a physician) uses asfoetida liberally. 🙂

23167 ▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to annie, #1136 of 1704 🔗

Ahs, no. I sail with Hornblower exclusively.

23288 ▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to annie, #1137 of 1704 🔗

I read every Hornblower while at school. My son named his first boat Atropos ! They are very good indeed.

But trust me Annie, O’Brian is the peak !

He is, in many people’s opinion, the greatest ever historical novelist. Think of Hornblower, but with added humour, political maneuverings, natural history, and stunning erudition. (And imho, much better writing).

You have a real treat in store. We O’Brian fans are always insanely jealous of someone who hasn’t read them yet. (Master & Commander is the first in the series – in this instance only, Amazon is your friend. 🙂 ).

23339 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to JohnB, 1, #1138 of 1704 🔗

I’ll give Aubrey another go!

23384 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to annie, #1139 of 1704 🔗

You won’t regret it !

23262 ▶▶ Jaguarpig, replying to annie, 3, #1140 of 1704 🔗

How the useless cow got to the top says everything about the twats in charge she should have been sacked and prosecuted over the murder Jean Charles da Silva e de Menezes

23263 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Jaguarpig, 1, #1141 of 1704 🔗

Positive discrimination.

23121 Abi, replying to Abi, -14, #1142 of 1704 🔗

Ok so I have just arrived here, I can see you’re writing articles and sharing information which we could find on our own, – it just feels like a platform for the frustrated to share their thoughts and feel good momentarily – apart from this you’re accepting donations and have a shop. I would like to know what is the goal of this site? Are you doing anything that can change the current situation? Many people are now aware of these facts but nobody is doing anything about it and the question is why?

23131 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Abi, 32, #1143 of 1704 🔗

The main benefits of this site for me in the early phase of this panic were to reassure the tiny minority of dissidents from the coronapanic that they were not alone or insane, to share information led by Toby’s excellent pieces and links, and to allow matters to be discussed and thrashed out within a reasonably like-minded (on this issue) community.

Gradually the sceptic position is becoming less of a tiny minority one, as more and more people wake up to the realities that some of us were aware of from the earliest days of the irrational panic over this disease. As numbers increase, more actions become practicable. To date, it’s been mostly a case of taking individual, personal stands against it, writing to MPs etc.

What are your suggestions?

23185 ▶▶▶ Nic, replying to Mark, 3, #1144 of 1704 🔗

Yes I think it’s our duty to write to our Mps and tell them our views and ask questions etc

23188 ▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Nic, 5, #1145 of 1704 🔗

Done that Nic. The response was very dispiriting – “Im sorry if the virus has impacted your business …”!

23217 ▶▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Nic, 5, #1146 of 1704 🔗

My MP has 4 emails awaiting replies in her inbox from me.

23517 ▶▶▶ Abi, replying to Mark, #1147 of 1704 🔗

Firstly, I would like to remark that I got many dislikes simply for asking what are we practically doing, so did the only person who said they agreed with me and I was called a troll. I’m not a leader by nature nor am I a good speaker, I have little knowledge of the law but I think we should be asking the government for a medical and scientific proof to back every new rule they are introducing in relation to the pandemic. For instance, from what I have read in a research done years ago, it’s very likely that this corona virus will disappear in summer before coming back in winter as all other coronaviruses do (they are sharply seasonal). Yet face masks are to become compulsory on public transport from 15 June, backed by which study? We don’t know. Say yes to this without enquiring its validity and we’ll be saying yes to another and another rule just because the government says so.

23529 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Abi, #1148 of 1704 🔗

I assume that you got dislikes (I wasn’t one of them, so I’m guessing, in fact I upvoted you because I felt you were unfairly criticised) because of the negative and hostile tone of your post, which made you seem rather contemptuous of the site and its denizens.

If you had just posted what you did here (without the first sentence), you would probably have received no such response.

23134 ▶▶ Jonathan Smith, replying to Abi, 23, #1149 of 1704 🔗

I suggest getting acquainted with the site a bit and taking the trouble to see/ask what people are doing before throwing the salt around.

I think you’ll also find that some folk are here simply for the solidarity.

What are you doing Abi? Want to make some suggestions?

23143 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Abi, 10, #1150 of 1704 🔗

One goal of the site is to keep it troll free. 🙂

23159 ▶▶ Cruella, replying to Abi, -9, #1151 of 1704 🔗

I agree Abi, I find reading this stuff increasingly depressing. Venting just feels futile and knowing this stuff changes nothing at all. Of late I just can’t read it, what’s the point, I still have to live it. We affect no change and proving and re proving the hysteria and consequent damage caused by governmental decisions helps no-one. Maybe try visiting Simon Dolans web page, he is actually doing something and you can lend your support.

23170 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Cruella, 4, #1152 of 1704 🔗

But you still come back, don’t you?

23173 ▶▶▶ Tom Blackburn, replying to Cruella, 2, #1153 of 1704 🔗

There’s plenty going on. From the people walking their dog / ripping down notices to Simon Dolan and everything in between.

23279 ▶▶▶▶ Katherin8735363, replying to Tom Blackburn, 1, #1154 of 1704 🔗

Wish I could actually find some pro-lockdown notices nearby to tear down, or betetr ye cover over with anti-lockdown litrature. Maybe there should be a map of them online somewhere.

23187 ▶▶ Back To Normal, replying to Abi, 3, #1155 of 1704 🔗

Abi has got a good point here. We should not just dismiss it because we don’t like it. On the other hand, it is very difficult to see what we can actually do other than vent and agree with each other.

It seems that all we can do is write to MP’s and sign petitions.

I’ve said this before, our arguments need to be more public facing – its the brainwashed public we need to convince.

I wonder whether Toby would consider this site evolving into a more neutral-sounding forum. For starters, LockdownSceptics is not going to encourage non-sceptics to take a look. Maybe LockdownForum, or LockdownUnlocked?

Also, I wonder how feasible it might be for an actual sensible debate to take place here between sceptics and non-sceptics. Maybe I’m crackers and that just would not work, but I’d be interested to here any other thoughts on that idea.

23209 ▶▶▶ James007, replying to Back To Normal, 8, #1156 of 1704 🔗

Changing minds and having a debate is really important, but I also think venting and agreeing with each other is not without purpose. When this site started there were no other forums for the sceptical position, and simply sharing with others suffering from these deluded policies was a source of encouragement. It’s not a problem for me that the contents of this site are partisan and has a bias, all outlets I read are biased, mainly in the opposite direction.

23219 ▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Back To Normal, 6, #1157 of 1704 🔗

This is a very informative website Toby collates interesting articles I really cannot understand the problem.

23226 ▶▶▶▶ Back To Normal, replying to Bella Donna, #1158 of 1704 🔗

There’s no problem here. This is a great site and Toby has done a tremendous job with it. I’m just wondering how we might be able to make it more effective. Maybe that is just not possible (and I’m crackers as I said), but that shouldn’t stop us thinking about it, in my opinion.

23241 ▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Back To Normal, #1159 of 1704 🔗

People who are entrenched aren’t going to change their pov. .One of the great human failings, and the cause of untold suffering, is the unwillingness to admit you were wrong

23278 ▶▶▶ Katherin8735363, replying to Back To Normal, #1160 of 1704 🔗

Better to keep LockdownSceptics as it is, actually a stronger word than scpetics might be nice. “sceptics” are a bit uncertin about something, we on the other hand are firmly decided already that lockdown is terrible. But AdamD, you’d do us a great service by setting up a more neutral loooking forum elsewhere with the intention of preaching our cause to the unconverted in a way that they wouldn’t try to oppose.

23365 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Back To Normal, #1161 of 1704 🔗

The non-sceptics get their information all too easily from the MSM.

What I’ve found coming here is a wealth of links, discussion and information which has been shared by the more knowledgeable and which I wouldn’t have found on my own.
Also, to find a community of like-minded people is keeping me sane.

23215 ▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Abi, 3, #1162 of 1704 🔗

No one is asking you to stay! Bye

23329 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Abi, 3, #1163 of 1704 🔗

This site’s code review of the Imperial model went viral (so to speak). MPs David Davis and Steve Baker both promoted it and, I believe, it has been quoted in parliament and select committees.

23387 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Abi, #1164 of 1704 🔗

Well, you say “nobody is doing anything about it” but I am not sure on what basis you say that.

I don’t know what people are doing – whatever they can I hope.

It’s useful to share information, and sometimes to be able to vent and provide moral support.

Obviously the title isn’t going to attract too many non-sceptics, but personally I welcome anyone who comes on and is prepared to argue their case, whatever their views. I’d love to have a decent discussion with someone who could put forward some coherent arguments on favour of current and projected government policy, or any policy.

I try to influence those around me. Changing public opinion is important, and is achieved with a combination of grand gestures and small steps.

I post elsewhere, though so far most places seem largely full of people posting what seem to me fairly unedifying statements, whatever their views.

23789 ▶▶ ianp, replying to Abi, #1165 of 1704 🔗

Truth, information and data is power. All 3 need to be shared by whichever channel is available to us.

Quite honestly, I don’t think many people on here would have attended any sort of political motivated protest march in their lives (I haven’t) so it’s quite alien to me. Any sort of protest to that end is currently leading to MSM ‘outing’ and fakenews reporting.

I think that currently the best thing is to carry on with your life, ignore the government guidelines and rules. By those means we influence and change those with whom we come into contact with (ie. break social distancing!)

23127 Chris, replying to Chris, 2, #1166 of 1704 🔗

I’m used to supposedly objective journalists letting their politics colour their reporting – journalism is adjacent to political power. I’m not used to the idea that nobody, no matter what professional ethics, declarations of sober, slow rationality, can resist or even tries very hard to resist.
How should I understand the stampede of moral elephants and the excited contortions of their riders? Can we identify towards what they gallop, or who is in the clouds of slogans goading them on?

23273 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to Chris, 1, #1167 of 1704 🔗

Most of them aren’t journalists. They’re primarily political activists posing as journalists.

23133 Cheezilla, replying to Cheezilla, 9, #1168 of 1704 🔗

Oh no! They’re out BLM demonstrating – but with masks and social distancing.
Also, Matt Handjob urged: Please don’t gather in groups of more than six people because there is also a pandemic that we must address and control.


What a pathetic article!

23197 ▶▶ matt, replying to Cheezilla, 8, #1169 of 1704 🔗

Of course, you realise the problem with the fact they’re all wearing masks, don’t you?

It means that, in two weeks, when there isn’t a “second wave”, the message will be “see? Masks do work!”

23216 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to matt, #1170 of 1704 🔗

Good point.

23272 ▶▶▶▶ Katherin8735363, replying to Farinances, #1171 of 1704 🔗

Still, if they come to the conclusion “masks do work”, rather than “the pandemic has burnt itself out already” we’ll still be able to reply with, “looks like there was no need for the lockdown then”.

23444 ▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Katherin8735363, #1172 of 1704 🔗

Good point.

23271 ▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to matt, 2, #1173 of 1704 🔗

I thought it was “wear a mask. Riot without being identified.”

23369 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Lms23, #1174 of 1704 🔗

Double-edged sword at the moment?

23367 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to matt, #1175 of 1704 🔗


23140 Edgar Friendly, replying to Edgar Friendly, 27, #1176 of 1704 🔗

Ahh, the piquant multi-faceted irony of seeing photos in which protesters complaining about police brutality are breaking lock-down rules while left unmolested by the police yet wearing anti-covid masks and holding up placards saying ‘I can’t breathe’…!

Is it me or have we finally gone through the looking-glass?

Life now only seems to be made sensible to reason when inverting everything seen or heard from the mainstream media.

23151 ▶▶ annie, replying to Edgar Friendly, 3, #1177 of 1704 🔗

… and yet we incessantly stand on our heads.
Do we think, at our age, it is right?

(Answer: yes.)

23196 ▶▶ Moomin, replying to Edgar Friendly, 3, #1178 of 1704 🔗

Yeah, I noticed the irony of holding up those placards with a mask on.

23372 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Edgar Friendly, #1179 of 1704 🔗

Makes it look even more like the trigger was an orchestrated event. Someone is really taking the p*ss out of the sheeple.

23142 ianric, replying to ianric, 14, #1180 of 1704 🔗

This is a question I would like to ask anyone with medical expertise. Common sense dictates that we quarantine sick people until they are better so they don’t spread a disease. The problem with lockdowns is that it is a blunt policy where everyone is quarantined regardless of whether they have coronavirus and contact between people is kept to a minimum. Lockdown policy work on the assumption everyone is possibly infected and if they are in contact with others they will pass on the infection. The only way a lockdown can be justified if there is a strong possibility asymptomatic carriers will spread the disease. How likely are asymptomatic carriers to spread disease in comparison with symptomatic carriers. I would assume unlike symptomatic carriers asymptomatic carriers are less likely to cough and sneeze. Would asymptomatic carriers have a lower viral load and how long will they carry the virus. If large numbers are asymptomatic how is this explained if coronavirus is so dangerous.

23183 ▶▶ Nic, replying to ianric, 12, #1181 of 1704 🔗

Are the type of questions I’d liked asked in the afternoon briefings why cant you shield the old and the vulnerable? Mr Witty And let the rest of us be allowed to work socialise etc .Why does nobody ask these questions after all I thi.k it’s a very important one.

23192 ▶▶ matt, replying to ianric, 58, #1182 of 1704 🔗

I am not medically qualified, (though my wife claims I think I am by osmosis, having grown up surrounded by medics). However:

To address your actual question, the answer is not known with any kind of certainty, but there are the current theory is that people very often contract the virus and are asymptomatic, that it takes around a week to become symptomatic for those who do, and that both the asymptomatic and the pre-symptomatic can spread the disease more easily than is the case with other viruses. It’s unusual to be contagious with the ‘flu, for example if you have no symptoms. Much less so with SARS2. We think. This is the theory behind the idea of the so-called “superspreaders” – individuals have the virus and don’t know it And go around giving it to many other people without being aware.

As you say, that is the apparent Justification behind imposing lockdown.

However, even if it is true – and I’ve no reason to doubt that it might well be – it is still no justification for lockdown for many, many reasons. And bear in mind, that never in the whole of human history – before 2020 – has any country anywhere responded to any infectious disease by enforcing quarantine on their entire population, whether sick or healthy.

Firstly – coronavirus is not actually especially dangerous. It seems increasingly clear that only somewhere between 0.25% of people and – at an absolute maximum – something short of 1% of people who catch it will actually die from it and there is more and more evidence that the answer is much closer to 0.25% than to 1%. That would mean that it will kill something like 25 out of every 10,000 people who actually catch it. This makes it somewhat more dangerous than a bad year of seasonal ‘flu, but only a little more. Until just a couple of weeks ago, Covid had in fact been on fewer death certificates in the UK than ‘flu and pneumonia (that’s ‘flu and pneumonia as a combination) than had Covid. And this year has been a gentle year for the ‘flu, comparatively.

It also seems to be the case that so-called “herd immunity” is in fact achieved when 20% of the population have been infected (not 60% as was being quoted by the government at the beginning of the outbreak). This is a number that has come up many times – only 19.2% of the passengers and crew of the Diamond Princess cruise ship were found to be infected (and only 0.23% of those died); serology tests in New York have shown that 21% had been infected – and infections are vanishing; serology tests in London have found 17% of the city’s population have had the virus – and infection rates are vanishing.

In addition, it only seems to pose any threat at all to people who have other complicating health factors. Significantly less than 2,000 of the people who have died “of” (or with) Covid in the UK have had it listed as the only cause of death on the death certificate. The huge – absolutely overwhelming – majority of all deaths have been over 75 and virtually none Have been under 45.

40,000 (or 50,000) deaths may sound like an awful lot of deaths, but it really isn’t in the context of the number of people who die in the UK anyway, in the normal run of things when there are no new viruses to contend with. It’s about an additional month’s worth of deaths (600,000 deaths is a pretty usual number for the UK for a year). And those deaths are in fact only “additional” if you assume that none of those would have died this year anyway, while even Neil Ferguson has admitted that around two thirds probably would have done.

So you have a disease that you probably won’t catch, even if you are allowed to go to the pub, and which almost certainly won’t kill you, even if you do, unless you’re already really very sick, or you’re very, very, very unlucky.

Secondly, lockdown doesn’t work to stop infections or to save lives anyway. The easiest ways to point this out are that:
1) The pattern of infection rates and death rates has been remarkably similar across almost all countries that have had the virus, regardless of whether or not the country has imposed lockdown, how quickly lockdown was imposed or how draconian their lockdown rules have been. You will find many links in various of the posts Toby Young has made on this blog to studies that have shown this
2) As a Bristol University study has just shown, infections in the UK had already peaked and were on their way down before lockdown was imposed, meaning that it wasn’t lockdown that caused the fall in infection rates. It was either the “social distancing guidelines” that had been put in place in the few weeks before lockdown, or the fact that, in certain parts of the country (chiefly London), the 20% figure had already nearly been reached and we were coming close to her immunity. Personally, I think the latter

Thirdly, the side effects of lockdown will in the short, medium and long term cost far more lives than even the best timed and most effective lockdown could have saved:
– Cancer, heart problems, diabetes, kidney problems and any number of other acute and chronic illnesses have gone untreated, because the NHS has been almost entirely dedicated to dealing with Covid since March.
– The effects of solitude and the fear propaganda that has been pumped out into the population will have had a very significant psychological effect, and suicides will likely increase as a result (not to mention the long term psychological effects).
– Many businesses of all sizes have already gone to the wall as a result of shutting down the economy for an entire quarter and of the new rules that make it very much more difficult and very much more expensive to trade and which limit the amount of trade they can do anyway. Many more will follow over the coming weeks – regardless at this point of how much and how quickly lockdown is relaxed. And this is about the economy, but the economy is also about lives. The government will have less money coming in in the future through tax receipts to pay for things – including things like public health and the NHS and millions of people who had jobs until March of this year will be unemployed (millions are already, basically, even if they’re on furlough right now and so they don’t know it yet). Unemployment and the poverty that it causes leads to far worse health outcomes and shorter life expectancy and far worse life prospects – and health outcomes and life expectancy – for their children.

So, all in all, it’s a pretty stupid idea. And I haven’t got to all of the constitutional and philosophical problems, but basically, governments shouldn’t be able to decide to place their entire citizenry under house arrest for 3 months and convince them to be grateful to be “allowed” to go for a run in the park more than once a day.

23194 ▶▶▶ Edna, replying to matt, 12, #1183 of 1704 🔗

I wish I could ‘vote’ for this many, many more times! You have set out very succinctly the main arguments against lockdown. Thank you.

23201 ▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Edna, 2, #1184 of 1704 🔗

Thank you. But I _really_ wish I had an edit button, now I’ve spotted all the typos and punctuation errors.

23338 ▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to matt, 3, #1185 of 1704 🔗

Who cares? You speak truth.
It’s vital that at the forthcoming Coronaberg Trials, it isn’t a matter of proving that l.d. had more demerits than merits, but of proving that it had NO MERITS WHATSOEVER. That’s the only way to guard against its happening again.

23213 ▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to matt, 2, #1186 of 1704 🔗

Matt that was excellent thank you.

23234 ▶▶▶ Richardm, replying to matt, 2, #1187 of 1704 🔗

I’m going to print this, stick it on my office wall, and recall this summary when I have the chance to respond in around 4 years time – hopefully earlier. Hindsight bias? No, ‘lessons learned’.

23247 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to matt, 1, #1188 of 1704 🔗

Great comment. Shame I can only recommend it once.

23249 ▶▶▶ ianric, replying to matt, 5, #1189 of 1704 🔗

That was a very good response. I agree that lockdown is going to create is loss of tax revenue. In England non essential shops can’t open until the 15th of June and pubs can’t open until July at the earliest. Regardless whether these businesses survive the lockdown these businesses will have gone several months where they don’t pay corporation tax and income tax. Under lockdown many types of businesses can’t operate non essential retail, pubs hotels, restaurants, nightclubs which means vast areas of the economy will have gone at least a quarter of a year without paying tax. Business able to operate are paying less tax than normal as lockdown reduces their trade. For instance a restaurant which has sit in and takeaway can currently only do takeaway which reduces their income and hence the amount of corporation tax they pay.

A summer lockdown means tourist dependent businesses are unable to trade during their busiest periods when they generate most of their tax revenue. Lockdown means are driving less which means less revenue from fuel tax.

23287 ▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to ianric, 11, #1190 of 1704 🔗

With apologies to The Spectator, from whose “Barometer” column of last week the following was taken.

“How did tax receipts fare in April compared with last year?
VAT £897M (-93%)
Air passenger duty £29M (-90%)
Beer duty £96M (-69%)
Corporation tax £3.2bn (-55%)
Fuel duty £1.3bn (-48%)
Stamp duty land tax £14.6bn (-43%)
Income tax £14.6bn (-21%)
National insurance £11.1bn (-18%)
Tobacco duty £1.54bn (+137%)”

So yes, it’s catastrophic from the point of view of tax receipts – and that’s just in April, in the first month of the whole thing and it’s happening at a time when the government is spending more money than it ever has before (and more money in real terms than it ever has in peace time).

The effect on taxation through the short term effects of trying to put the economy in cryogenic suspension isn’t really the point, though.

All of the high street, hospitality and tourism sectors are effected, just as you say.

But this means, for example, that food producers and packagers have no way to sell their food, because it’s intended for the pub and restaurant trade and they have no outlet to get it to the consumer. So the food rots on the shelves and the production costs are already spent, so the businesses lose money – and they’re not operating on significant margins at the best of times.

Clothes shops haven’t just lost 3 months of trade, they’ve lost the ability to sell an entire spring/summer season of stock, all of which was bought and paid for. And they haven’t had the certainty to be able to put in their usual orders for the next season, so they don’t have the clothes to sell now that they can think about re-openings (and anyway, if everyone’s stuck at home and not allowed to go out and nowhere to go to even if they could – who the heck’s going to buy new outfits?), and the people who normally manufacture the clothes haven’t had the revenue (even if they’ve been able to keep the factory open) and they’re not placing orders for materials in the same way.

And nobody wants to buy a new car, because they’re too uncertain about the future to want to make that kind of commitment, and they couldn’t have even if they wanted to because the car dealers were closed and so the car manufacturers have basically mothballed their operations (you don’t make a car unless you have a reasonable certainty someone is going to buy it) and they’re not placing orders with the component manufacturers, who are therefore not buying the raw materials.

And airlines are certainly not going to buy new planes, because they don’t think they’re ever again going to be able to sell the seats on the ones they already have and so the aerospace companies aren’t going to make the planes and bits of planes any more and so they’re not going to place any orders with the people who make the bits that go into making the bits of planes and they have no idea if there’s going to be the same leveL of demand for this _ever again_

And the oil price is through the floor and nobody’s buying fuel anymore (c.f. cars, planes) anyway and so the oil companies are in trouble and so North Sea oil rigs are being mothballed

And it seems unlikely that the concept of the office is going to survive this event without significant change, so major commercial landlords are looking a the likelihood that demand for what they provide is only ever again going to be a fraction of what it was in February

And all of the service companies (except the litigation lawyers) who normally make their money from selling services either to consumers (who certainly don’t feel confident enough to spend any more money than they have to at the moment) or to businesses (who are barely able to cover their operating costs, let alone look at buying services that are nice to have, but not strictly necessary) see demand dropping…

And… and… and… and.. I could go on, but I’ve probably gone on enough and suffice it to say that there is not a single sector in the economy (including the public sector) that isn’t going to be badly hurt by this and the scarring will go on for a very, very long time.

And yes, every single one of these businesses pays tax every time the same pound coin passes along every one of these chains.

And every single one of the links in every single one of these chains has one thing in common – and that is that they employ people to do the stuff that they may never be able to do again – or at the very least, will have to do an awful lot less of for the foreseeable future.

And employing people is expensive. For most of the companies I describe, employee payroll is the single largest expense they will have.

And all of this might – might – have been tolerable for a couple of weeks. But 3 months is cripplingly destructive.

People are going to lose their jobs. Millions of people are going to lose their jobs. Very probably, more than 10 million people are going to lose their jobs. As I say, many of those people in effect already have – but they’re currently being paid on furlough, so they just haven’t realised it yet.

23292 ▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to matt, #1191 of 1704 🔗

Ugh *affected. Not effected

23362 ▶▶▶▶▶ ianric, replying to matt, 3, #1192 of 1704 🔗

If mass unemployment occurs, there will be a double whammy of money on furlough being wasted as it failed to prevent redundancies and money having to be spent on unemployment benefits. This raises the issue can government ask for furlough money back if employers make people redundant. People who have worked through the crisis may be angry that their taxes have been spent on furlough which failed to protect jobs and their taxes have been wasted.

Business fed off each other and if different types of businesses are allowed to open at different times, businesses may loose out. For instance, if hotels were allowed to open before restaurants, restaurants would miss on the trade they get from people staying in hotels which don’t do evening meals. If the situation was reversed, people may be reluctant to book hotels if they can’t eat out in the evening as many hotels don’t do evening meals.

An issue lockdown creates is unfair advantages. It must be a wet dream for a business owner that your competitors are legally not allowed to sell the same product as you. For instance, a shop selling only clothes can’t operate but a shop selling clothes and food can.

23439 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to ianric, 3, #1193 of 1704 🔗

Ok. Point by point (I can’t work out how to quote – it may be because I’m on a tablet, not a proper PC).

The furlough scheme will have failed to prevent redundancies because it was designed to be a short term measure to prevent a short term shock. It was not designed to manage a quarter’s worth of economic paralysis. As a tax payer, I agree that it would make sense to require a company to repay furlough money if they then make their workforce redundant. But the economic reality that these companies are facing means that the overall impact would be even worse if the government demanded this money back. And the original offer was never conditional. Sunak did not say “we will nationalise your payroll if you promise all of these people will have jobs if and when you can afford to employ them again.” He said “we will nationalise your payroll for the time being.”

Yes, businesses feed off each other. And you’re absolutely right – why would I choose to travel to a city and stay in a hotel if I can’t eat out when I get there? (Personally, as someone who used to travel for business every other week or so, I always preferred to eat in the hotel restaurant, because eating in a regular restaurant on your own is just awkward, but that’s unusual, I acknowledge). However, this misses the point, because, as I tried to point out above, the entire economy is interconnected. If you shut down all of it, it’s a catastrophe. If you then open up 10% of it, it’s not 10% less catastrophe – it’s still a catastrophe. If you open up all of it, but you enforce rules that mean that the experience is miserable for the consumer and swathes of the consumer-facing economy can’t operate profitably – it’s still a catastrophe.

And yes, there are are unfair advantages. Amazon (especially Amazon), google, Facebook have all done well out of this – but I mean really, really well. Anyone who had their online presence sorted in advance and could continue to operate close to normal has done ok. I suspect that local butchers, green grocers and bakers have probably done better than the big supermarkets, comparatively and in the final analysis. On the other hand, Sainsbury’s and Tesco’s are undoubtedly better off than Next or any other dedicated clothes store that has been forced to close.

But make no mistake, this is an economic cataclysm. I use the word advisedly, because it is a violent and destructive event that will bring change. Change is not always negative and there may be some resulting positives in our long term future, but in the short term, please do prepare yourself for the worst.

23447 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to matt, 1, #1194 of 1704 🔗

But this was all foreseeable. I mean, yes there was some shifting of goalposts from flattening the curve to suppression that has made it much worse, but if that wasn’t considered it just emphasises how grossly irresponsible and incompetent these people have been.

And where were the big business voices fighting against this disaster? Granted there have been big winners, but there have been a lot of huge losers, and only a very few voices against it (Dolan, Rocco Forte, Elon Musk).

I feel most of them were just blindsided by it, because we were heading for herd immunity (the only rational approach) and the government pretty suddenly panicked and went into flattening the curve and then suppression.

But make no mistake, this is an economic cataclysm. I use the word advisedly, because it is a violent and destructive event that will bring change .”

I’ve mentioned Peter Hitchens’ point here before, that a society in which many of its most dynamic and effective individuals (those with the ability and drive to build a business) are dispossessed, impoverished, embittered and effectively disenfranchised is a society in big trouble.

23467 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ ianric, replying to matt, #1195 of 1704 🔗

The lockdown is a dream situation for online businesses as people are reluctant to visit shops due to fear of catching coronavirus and want to avoid the hassle of queuing etc.

23381 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to matt, #1196 of 1704 🔗

Awesome response!

23426 ▶▶▶▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to matt, #1197 of 1704 🔗

I agree, there are going to be a huge number of jobs just written off once the furlough merry-go-round grinds to a crunching halt. There have been indications of this coming for some time, and though it is anecdotal evidence, i have already seen people mentioning the fact that the company they work for has decided they may as well ‘work from home’ forever, meaning massive downsizing on commercial property space is also coming, as you mention, followed by the cull of workers (not literally!). Looks pretty bleak tbh.

23255 ▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to matt, #1198 of 1704 🔗

Very succinctly put.

The government’s approach to it all has been erratic and illogical, especially now.

23308 ▶▶▶ Sophie, replying to matt, #1199 of 1704 🔗

Hear hear – excellent comment. I’ve been lurking on this site for a while now thankful to have found a website and people who think the way I do. It’s kept me going, as many others have said, through these dreadful times. Keep your insightful articles coming Toby and everyone keep your thoughtful, intelligent responses coming.

23321 ▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to matt, #1200 of 1704 🔗

“this year has been a gentle year for the ‘flu, comparatively”

A lucky coincidence!

23403 ▶▶▶ Lockdown Truth, replying to matt, #1201 of 1704 🔗

Hi Matt

I’ve posted your comment as a standalone post on Lockdown Truth I hope that’s OK.



23422 ▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Lockdown Truth, #1202 of 1704 🔗

Of course. But I hope you edited the typo/punctuation cock ups!

23448 ▶▶▶ Chicot, replying to matt, #1203 of 1704 🔗

Brilliant summary. You’ve covered just about everything.

23252 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to ianric, 2, #1204 of 1704 🔗

The virus only seems to be dangerous to those with pre-existing conditions and/or over a certain age.
It’s not dangerous to most of the population, and is getting weaker.

23268 ▶▶ djaustin, replying to ianric, 1, #1205 of 1704 🔗

The absence of preparedness and availability of testing, coupled with a lack of knowledge of the disease early on led to a lack of options. Not implementing control measures early enough on the way up led to a lack of options for early release on the way back down. Of course protecting the most vulnerable and quarantine of the sick makes sense. However, identifying the infected in the community has proven impossible due to an incapacity to test. Identifying the infected elderly prior to discharge back to nursing homes has not exactly helped either.

As for the contribution of asymptomatic carriers to spreading the disease, there is sadly insufficient data. There is plenty of evidence of relatively low prevalence of past infection (as noted by both antibodies and swabbing for current infection). There is debate about whether this is due to some natural immunity or not (personally I think not if this looks like any other virus). Is there herd immunity?

Well experience with other coronaviruses points to a negative. As with influenza. Repeat infections may become milder, however. In the examples of closed populations (Diamond Princess and the USS Theodore Roosevelt) revealed relatively low positives (about a quarter) but these were not antibody tests. The proportion who may have experienced infection will be higher.

Science is the art of living with uncertainty. Politics is “following the science”, except the science is less certain that most would have you believe. Anyone who is CERTAIN of almost anything with regards to COVID19 is likely to be wrong.

23275 ▶▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to djaustin, 3, #1206 of 1704 🔗

Precisely the point. There was no reliable data on which to base the lockdown. Consequently, Dolan’s lawyers, followed by those involved in any public inquiry, will have a field day.

From Jan 15 to March 3, 2020, seven versions of the case definition for COVID-19 were issued by the National Health Commission in China.’


Add in over ten thousand deaths caused by discharging elderly and infirm patients from hospital to make way for covid 19 patients who never turned up and you have potential public liability actions running to hundreds of millions of pounds, quite possibly billions of pounds….the bill to be picked up by the taxpayer.

‘When we look back . . . this rise in non-covid extra deaths outside the hospital is something I hope will be given really severe attention.” He added that many of these deaths would be among people “who may well have lived longer if they had managed to get to hospital.”


No wonder this government is intent on stringing things out…….

23290 ▶▶▶▶ djaustin, replying to Tim Bidie, #1207 of 1704 🔗

Whilst the recent ONS analysis does not lay the claim of excess deaths at COVID19, it has done a pretty good job of eliminating the concern over additional strokes and heart attacks.

I liken the testing situation to flying through cloud without instruments. We’re trying to land and have not altitude reading!

I’m not a lockdown zealot btw – but I think there is ample evidence that contact restriction, particularly in the London data, has had a profound influence on the course of the epidemic. How much of that was established prior to lockdown by people acting differently (public transport for example) will always be a moot point. But countries with earlier intervention (Germany) have seen lower cases, and countries with harder restrictions (Spain) have seen a more rapid decline (Spain). UK seems to have been the country to provide the evidence for the counter-effectiveness of both of these points – later and softer!

As for the nursing homes. This will be their legacy.

23382 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to djaustin, #1208 of 1704 🔗

Surely the blame lies with the government directive and PHE, not with the care homes. They are not equipped to take people who need medical care but were forced to, with no extra help until there was an outcry six weeks later.

23420 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ djaustin, replying to Cheezilla, #1209 of 1704 🔗

Correct. My focus was really on hospitals discharging patients to nursing homes without tests for infection. This I consider reckless in the extreme. PHE maintaining testing within their control was a huge error of judgement. Nursing homes would have instigated quarantine and infection control measures had they been given knowledge that patients needed such measures. The diversion of PPE is a further disgrace and serves to show the poor integration of social and health care. Of anything good comes out of this, it should be a recognition of social care.

23146 Mark, replying to Mark, 13, #1210 of 1704 🔗

Here’s an activism question. We face two damaging plagues of hysteria based upon lies, as Toby has highlighted above. As relatively tiny minorities who perceive the truth, how do we fight back effectively against the coercive majorities on these issues?

In both of these plagues, both the corporate world and our political and media elites are overwhelmingly on the other side. They see the benefits of pandering to the lies believed by the majority, in either business or votes, and they either don’t see the costs or regard them as secondary or not their business.

How does a small minority force a company or a politician to pay a price for pandering to coronapanic or to BLM, without triggering intervention from the deluded majority that outweighs our efforts?

The identity lobbies that grew to disastrous levels of influence during the C20th managed this because although they were minorities, the majority was mostly disinterested, so that a motivated minority could put enough pressure on corporate or political targets to force them to listen. But we face motivated, albeit deluded majorities.

23156 ▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to Mark, 20, #1211 of 1704 🔗

We should say we identify as trans-covid viral clusters and that the efforts to wipe out our covid19 brethren just going about their normal business of infecting people has been psychologically harmful to our chosen viral identity, and we feel that we are at risk of social persecution as trans-covid individuals.

23203 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Edgar Friendly, 10, #1212 of 1704 🔗

That’s a pretty good alternative to my idea posted here a few weeks back that we establish an antilockdownista religion and claim a right to have our cultural beliefs recognised. Like Sikhs with their blades and turbans, our cultural requirements must be respected, including an absolute prohibition on wearing facemasks or complying with social distancing rules, and our homes, shops and businesses would be exempt from any lockdown laws. And anyone who disagrees with us can be accused of hate speech.

23169 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Mark, 17, #1213 of 1704 🔗

Maybe there is no answer. The entire world has become a ‘mob’, and you can’t reason with a mob. Dictionary definition of mob mentality is “directed at or reflecting the lowest intellectual level of the common people”. I think that’s pretty much what we’ve got, now, and I can’t see a way back from that.

Johnson was our last hope and he’s let us down so spectacularly you couldn’t have even imagined it a few months ago.

23180 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Barney McGrew, 7, #1214 of 1704 🔗

Johnson has been a disaster, admittedly, but hopefully he won’t be the last hope.

Eventually something will come along to overthrow this self-destructive culture of delusion. The question is what the costs of the delusion and of the fight will be, and would we recognise what eventually stands in our former nation’s place at the end of it.

Cue cozy cliches about it being darkest before the dawn, etc….

23190 ▶▶▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to Mark, 4, #1215 of 1704 🔗

Wishing for a massive solar flare to wipe out all electronics is about the best hope we have unfortunately. The solution cannot ever be voted in by the people, the system is rigged to make sure of that.

23193 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Edgar Friendly, 7, #1216 of 1704 🔗

“If voting made a difference, they wouldn’t let us do it” and “whoever you vote for the government always gets in”. There are truths in these old anarchist slogans.

23212 ▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Barney McGrew, 9, #1217 of 1704 🔗

How was Johnson ‘our last hope’. After spells as Foreign Secretary and Mayor of London, not to mention being complicit, or at least endorsing, the assault of journalists, plus being sacked from two news outlets for lying, I would have thought he was never any hope ever, just hopeless.

23315 ▶▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Bella, 8, #1218 of 1704 🔗

I can’t recall a previous PM who might have written about eating his ID card if asked to show it by an “emanation of the state”, nor the famous letterbox piece. As such, I thought that with him as PM it was going to be great. I thought he was going to appeal directly to the ‘great British public’, and sweep us along with sheer force of personality, ignoring the treacherous media and twitterati. I couldn’t have been more wrong.

I harbour no resentment over his privileged Etonian & Oxbridge background. And I’m not too bothered about ‘lies’ taken out of context that were part of the game against the lying media and opposition. What bothers me is that once he achieved his dream, he reneged on the impression he had given of himself and became an ideas vacuum; a sweaty man with a rehearsed-in-front-of-the mirror ‘serious face’, taking orders from ‘experts’ who are actually intellectual pygmies. It’s just that his ignorance of science is so deep that he can’t see it.

23297 ▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Barney McGrew, 4, #1219 of 1704 🔗

He was the last person I would have banked any hopes on. A weak, lazy, lying, bully whose only ambition was to be PM. Well that has gone well, hasn’t it? As for the cabinet, I cannot imagine a more characterless set of drones. And as for Sir Starmer’s shower. . . . . . .

But don’t worry, none of the above run the show any more. Sedwill, Ellwood, Cummings – ring any bells?

23195 ▶▶ matt, replying to Mark, 10, #1220 of 1704 🔗

I don’t know. I wish I did. I’m open to suggestions. This is something I’ve been struggling with myself – most of the channels just seem to be closed. The MSM may be coming round slowly on the lockdown subject at least – but far too weakly and far too slowly The letters page of even the Telegraph hardly seems like it would be impactful. Several here have tried to engage with their elected representative, and nobody seems to have got anywhere, if they’ve had a response at all. Social media is a busted flush, because that’s exactly where dissenting opinions are most easily crushed. Physical demonstrations only have any impact if there are a critical mass of people (and even then, their success is at the mercy of how the media reports the story).

We can’t even do what that Remainer bloke did every time there was something happening that meant all of the networks had outside broadcasts from Westminster and just shout really loudly – because all broadcasts are from home over Zoom nowadays.

23246 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to Mark, 5, #1221 of 1704 🔗

I don’t know what we can do in the UK. The brainwashing has been very effective. We’ve not been confronted with scenes of devastation as in the U.S., where it’s driving public opinion towards supporting Trump. People can see for themselves what’s happening despite the relentless propaganda from those in charge.
Over here, were still being cushioned. I don’t know how we break out of it, but maybe people will start to see the nonsense of it with all the protests in London and the complete 180 turnaround by the press.

23373 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Mark, #1222 of 1704 🔗

Goodness knows.

Do what you can. Use whatever arguments you can muster – ones that “resonate” with whoever you’re argiung with.

Live your life, try to be happy and take care of yourself and your loved ones.

Western Christian civisilation as it was seems to be in decline. It seems to me that some of the things that made it successful are being forgotten. That’s not to say that many things have not improved. We risk throwing away so much, when we don’t need to. I think we’ll regret it.

23383 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Julian, 5, #1223 of 1704 🔗

“Live your life, try to be happy and take care of yourself and your loved ones.”

Mostly done that, children grown up and independent, parents now dead.

I’d be happy just to live out the res of my days in quiet peace.

But the f***ers won’t leave us alone (us being anyone who has a generally moderate but conservative/traditionalist view of life.. They find stupid ways to try to make us jump through their bed-wetting hoops in fear of a disease that should just be accepted as part of the background like flu. They insist we kowtow to their fantasies of systematic racist violence and their poisonous hatred for us and for our history and culture.

Who is the aggressor here?

23395 ▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Mark, 1, #1224 of 1704 🔗

Things seem to be going in a very wrong direction. All may be lost. But I don’t think one could say all is lost, yet.

It’s frustrating because there are many who know very well the value of our history and culture but don’t seem to feel the need to defend it. I think they are playing with fire.

I sometimes wish a had a God circuit in my brain – it may make life easier. But God (in whom I do not believe) played a cruel trick on me and didn’t give me one.

23413 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Julian, #1225 of 1704 🔗

You are right, but in the end those people will probably have to choose a side.

And the bigger picture is, as you say, all is not lost yet.

23163 Sarigan, replying to Sarigan, 3, #1226 of 1704 🔗

Vernon on top form:


23392 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Sarigan, #1227 of 1704 🔗

Wow, he’s really pissed off!! Powerful stuff. Thanks.

23164 Mark, replying to Mark, 21, #1228 of 1704 🔗

Not everyone here shares Toby’s recognition of the connection between the two great current delusions, there are plenty here like you who are still victims of the BLM lies but see the truth on the coronapanic.

What I find amusing but absolutely not at all surprising is your evident preference that it would be better if those who don’t share your BLM delusion were excluded. This is of course the basic “no platforming” approach that underpins the Guardian’s censorship that it appears you have fallen foul of now that you disagree with them on a particular issue.

23206 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Mark, 16, #1229 of 1704 🔗

I’m not no platforming by the way. I’m openly criticising .”

First time I’ve seen any sign of you doing that. All I’ve seen from you so far has been more or less open hints that opposition to BLM/antiracism should be excluded from the site as counterproductive or as a distraction, or whatever.

hyperventilating at black men protesting

I think it’s pretty well established at this stage that BLM is by no means just “black men”, but is in large part delusional white middle class types desperately virtue signalling. But I do understand that you want to smear anyone who objects to the profoundly dishonest BLM as “racist”.

Have you got the balls to openly accuse Toby of that for what he wrote, or do you only try to push out the little people?

23208 ▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Mark, 9, #1230 of 1704 🔗

I agree perhaps this isn’t the website for you afterall. Toodles!

23355 ▶▶▶ John P, replying to Bella Donna, #1231 of 1704 🔗

Who is racist here?

23438 ▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to John P, #1232 of 1704 🔗

How do you know they are pretending and not genuinely concerned?

23440 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to John P, #1233 of 1704 🔗

So Toby, in your opinion. Why are you posting on a “racist’s” website?

I mean, unlike you they probably mostly don’t believe in censoring dissent, and certainly Toby doesn’t, based on his FSU project, but still, don’t you feel a little hypocritical?

23364 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Bella Donna, 2, #1234 of 1704 🔗

I’m not keen on double standards as they generally lead to trouble.

Whether I am a racist or not I suppose depends on your definition. I try not to prejudge people, and take them as I find them, but probably fail in that as I am a weak, sinful human.

I’m not sure about wetting my pants. I try to stay calm, as far as possible.

Do you think double standards are appropriate, in this case? Who should decide which standards apply?

As far as protests go, my view is that the law should never have forbidden protest, as long as it is peaceful.

23380 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Bella Donna, 5, #1235 of 1704 🔗

There you go concrete, that feels better eh? Stamp your feet a bit and shout “racist” a few times. It usually works to get people you don’t like banned, and comments saying things you do’t approve of censored, doesn’t it? Time will tell if that works here, but anyway you can only feel better for a bit of honest ad hominem.

Tell you what, for a real change to the usual antiracist playlist, you could actually try a substantive debate rather than abuse and censorship. Here’s the basis for Toby’s point that BLM is fundamentally dishonest – based at its very root on a lie. If it upsets you, you could try to explain where it is wrong.

BLM claims that deaths like Floyd’s result from systematic racist violence by US police (quite why that is any business of Brits is another good question, but anyway). Here’s Toby’s argument from Wednesday’s Sceptics (links in original):

As the African-American social scientist Roland Fryer has pointed out , when it comes to the extreme use of force – officer-involved shootings – blacks and Hispanics are no more likely to be shot than whites in similar circumstances. As for racist white police officers being responsible for the systematic murder of young black men, a 2018 study for the Public Administration Review found that white officers are no more likely to use lethal force on minority suspects than minority officers. In fact, a 2015 Justice Department analysis of the Philadelphia Police Department found that white police officers were less likely than black or Hispanic officers to shoot unarmed black suspects.
Moreover, there isn’t much evidence that black men are more likely to be convicted of the same crimes or receive tougher sentences for committing those crimes than white defendants when you control for things like previous offences, aggravating circumstances, whether or not they enter into a plea deal, and so forth. And the same is true of the UK, as this article by David Goodhart in ConservativeHome makes clear.
Yes, a higher percentage of African-American men are arrested and incarcerated than white men, but that’s because they commit a disproportionate amount of crime, not because the criminal-justice system is systemically racist. In 2018, the latest year for which such data have been published, African-Americans made up 53% of known homicide offenders in the U.S. and commit about 60% of robberies, even though they make up just 13% of the population . “

And here’s more argument from the Wall St Journal article from which Toby quoted and I quoted more extensively from earlier on in the comments to this piece:

This charge of systemic police bias was wrong during the Obama years and remains so today. However sickening the video of Floyd’s arrest, it isn’t representative of the 375 million annual contacts that police officers have with civilians. A solid body of evidence finds no structural bias in the criminal-justice system with regard to arrests, prosecution or sentencing. Crime and suspect behavior, not race, determine most police actions.
In 2019 police officers fatally shot 1,004 people, most of whom were armed or otherwise dangerous. African-Americans were about a quarter of those killed by cops last year (235), a ratio that has remained stable since 2015. That share of black victims is less than what the black crime rate would predict, since police shootings are a function of how often officers encounter armed and violent suspects. In 2018, the latest year for which such data have been published, African-Americans made up 53% of known homicide offenders in the U.S. and commit about 60% of robberies, though they are 13% of the population.
The police fatally shot nine unarmed blacks and 19 unarmed whites in 2019, according to a Washington Post database, down from 38 and 32, respectively, in 2015. The Post defines “unarmed” broadly to include such cases as a suspect in Newark, N.J., who had a loaded handgun in his car during a police chase. In 2018 there were 7,407 black homicide victims. Assuming a comparable number of victims last year, those nine unarmed black victims of police shootings represent 0.1% of all African-Americans killed in 2019. By contrast, a police officer is 18½ times more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male is to be killed by a police officer.
The latest in a series of studies undercutting the claim of systemic police bias was published in August 2019 in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. The researchers found that the more frequently officers encounter violent suspects from any given racial group, the greater the chance that a member of that group will be fatally shot by a police officer. There is “no significant evidence of antiblack disparity in the likelihood of being fatally shot by police,” they concluded.
A 2015 Justice Department analysis of the Philadelphia Police Department found that white police officers were less likely than black or Hispanic officers to shoot unarmed black suspects. Research by Harvard economist Roland G. Fryer Jr. also found no evidence of racial discrimination in shootings. Any evidence to the contrary fails to take into account crime rates and civilian behavior before and during interactions with police .”

I’m sure you’ll easily disprove this racist idea that there isn’t a systematic racist killing of black people in the US. After all, “everyone knows” that US police kill lots of black people just because they are black, and if it isn’t clearly true why would so many people be willing, nay eager to riot about it?

23385 ▶▶▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to Mark, 3, #1236 of 1704 🔗

And that’s not to mention who perpetrated the greater portion of those 7,407 murders of black victims in 2018. Doesn’t take much head scratching to conclude that it wasn’t all the doing of the KKK.

Pot, kettle, black? Or is that racist to say now…?

23389 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Edgar Friendly, 2, #1237 of 1704 🔗

I’m absolutely confident that in concrete’s head merely drawing attention to that unwelcome truth makes you a “racist”, for sure.

It’s a great system these zealots have, isn’t it? Only a “racist” would raise effective points against their assertions, and “racists” must be banned from any respectable discourse, because “there can be no neutral on racism” etc etc).

23211 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Mark, 43, #1238 of 1704 🔗

Personally I couldn’t give a fuck about black men (or white men, or yellow men, or horses, or whoever) protesting. I also couldn’t give a fuck about social distancing.

What I do give a fuck about however, is the people who formerly DID give a fuck about social distancing suddenly NOT giving a fuck about social distancing when it involves a very *specific* protest. Those who were, mere weeks ago, calling Piers Corbyn and his ilk who had the audacity to protest lockdown “far-right anti-vaxxers” and “conspiray theorists”, but who now are venerating BLM protestors for doing exactly the same – and far, far worse I might add – on the streets of London.

23243 ▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to Farinances, 9, #1239 of 1704 🔗


“There is an altogether too widespread impression that Antifa and BLM are new, independent, organically created groups, spontaneously reacting to contemporary issues. Stop them and then the problem is solved.


Antifa and BLM are the spear. If you stop a couple spears then it simply means others get made and thrown. As a society, we are far from coming to grips with who is throwing.

These groups are just fronts for a much larger Communist movement stretching both across the United States—in and outside of institutions—and even around the world, and back in time all the way to the 1920s.

Trevor Loudon recently wrote a great article laying out how Antifa is being stoked by an entire network of organizations including: Democratic Socialists of America, the Workers World Party, the Revolutionary Communist Party, and the Party for Socialism and Liberation.”

Those protesting in good faith today are no more than useful idiots. They’ve been lied to, brainwashed and indoctrinated into believing all they’re told about “structural and institutional racism.”

23248 ▶▶▶ Jaguarpig, replying to Farinances, #1240 of 1704 🔗

Spot on

23239 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to Mark, 11, #1241 of 1704 🔗

It’s the blatant hypocrisy of the Left who were hyperventilating about Dominic Cummings going for a drive, and who claimed anyone who wasn’t following all the rules was killing someone’s granny somewhere, but who are now perfectly ok with gathering together in their thousands with no anti-social distancing, because it’s in support of a fashionable cause.
Like this lot in America:
Over 1,000 health professionals sign a letter saying, Don’t shut down protests using coronavirus concerns as an excuse.
“Staying at home, social distancing, and public masking are effective at minimizing the spread of COVID-19. To the extent possible, we support the application of these public health best practices during demonstrations that call attention to the pervasive lethal force of white supremacy,” the letter says.
“However, as public health advocates, we do not condemn these gatherings as risky for COVID-19 transmission. We support them as vital to the national public health and to the threatened health specifically of Black people in the United States. We can show that support by facilitating safest protesting practices without detracting from demonstrators’ ability to gather and demand change. This should not be confused with a permissive stance on all gatherings, particularly protests against stay-home orders.”

Protesting the death of a criminal is ok, even if it risks granny, but protesting against the lockdown isn’t.

23250 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Lms23, 8, #1242 of 1704 🔗

This should not be confused with a permissive stance on all gatherings, particularly protests against stay-home orders


Genuinely difficult to decide between delusional hypocrisy and cynical dishonesty to explain such patent nonsense.

23280 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Mark, 1, #1243 of 1704 🔗

Or entitled arrogance ?

23274 ▶▶▶ Katherin8735363, replying to Lms23, #1244 of 1704 🔗

Disgusting “health professionals”! I can quite see how racism is something that wouldn’t be missed if eradicated, but authoritarian rule is even worse. You cannot possibly formulate any valid argument which can say that protests against a murder by a power crazed cop are ok, but protests against mass oppression by every power crazed cop are somehow harmful. All protests are equally fine, they get us closer to herd immunity (if the virus isn’t naturally declining already which some stats strongly suggest it may be doing), and protests against lockdown are vital.

23482 ▶▶▶▶ Mark H, replying to Katherin8735363, #1245 of 1704 🔗

APM: All Protests Matter

23177 Dave #KBF, replying to Dave #KBF, 8, #1246 of 1704 🔗

Anna Brees has interviewed Simon Dolan, the interview will be on YT at 18:00 BST


23394 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Dave #KBF, 1, #1247 of 1704 🔗

From the comments: Lockdown is a US prison term and prisoners used to bang pots and pans in demonstration.

That’s like the irony of the BLM protesters wearing masks and waving placards that say they can’t breathe. They’ve definitely all been played.

23182 Marcus, replying to Marcus, 23, #1248 of 1704 🔗

0 (that’s zero) new deaths reported in the last 24 hours in Scotland & NI.

Nic Sturg-on already desperately trying to find the cloud for this silver lining apparently.

23189 ▶▶ Mark H, replying to Marcus, 6, #1249 of 1704 🔗

Just in time for the BLM protests in Scotland, then.

However, for all the Nicolites it will be “Aye, but….aye, but….we cannae get wur holiday ae Spain cos ae Inglund. So, close ra bordur.”

23199 ▶▶ paulito, replying to Marcus, 23, #1250 of 1704 🔗

Where I live in Spain, there have been 0 deaths for 17 days running. Once in a century pandemic my hole.

23223 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Marcus, 1, #1251 of 1704 🔗

That is a Net Zero with which I could be happy!

23225 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Marcus, 9, #1252 of 1704 🔗

Except of course when the death totals are announced they will inevitably include a fair number from the past 6 weeks because of late reporting, this will be mentioned at the briefing, but the MSM won’t bother to explain that. Instead we get “oh look 180 deaths yesterday! We are all doomed!”. No, we aren’t. Listen properly!

23200 Back To Normal, replying to Back To Normal, 36, #1253 of 1704 🔗

I hate this phrase – the “new normal”. It makes me cringe.

I get the impression that most non-sceptics think “new normal” means something like the next time you get your hair cut, the person who does it will be wearing a mask.

I suggest that next time you hear someone use the phrase, you remind them that actually “new normal” will mean:
–         Mass unemployment
–         Mass poverty
–         Increased taxation
–         Less personal freedom
–         Increased prices for just about everything

Then you should politely suggest they reject the idea of a “new normal”, and that instead we need to get back to old “normal” as quickly as possible.

Remember that Boris is being held back by the brainwashed public. As soon as he realises they want “normal” back, and quick, then I think he will respond.

23205 ▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Back To Normal, 13, #1254 of 1704 🔗

Staying or keeping safe and we’re all in this together also trigger me!

23258 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Bella Donna, 6, #1255 of 1704 🔗

I pretty much ignore people who wish me to “stay safe”

23463 ▶▶▶ Nerina Villa, replying to Bella Donna, #1256 of 1704 🔗

I struggle not to say, well I’m doing my best but I’m bored, angry and worried, so eating too much crap, drinking too much and exercising too little, so yes cutting years off my life. But thanks anyway. Stay stupid.

23207 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to Back To Normal, 35, #1257 of 1704 🔗

Trouble is, they will only want “normal” back when they start to feel it in their bank accounts. I just wish Boris would bloody grow a pair, admit they ballsed it all up and get us back to work now, without any ludicrous restrictions. Not had one customer in my shop today who is pro-lockdown, not one – they all just want to get back to how things were.

23214 ▶▶▶ Back To Normal, replying to kh1485, 27, #1258 of 1704 🔗

I agree that Boris has not demonstrated any leadership at all through this crisis. He said he was led by the science – so he’s got fall guys lined up. But now he’s being led by the public – who seem to be critical of any measures being lifted. For example, the only reason we are going to have face masks on public transport is to stop people complaining its not safe to travel to work – its got nothing to do with the virus or any science whatsoever.
I know Boris would like to be compared with Churchill, or even Thatcher during the Falklands crisis, but I’m afraid he has well and truly blown that legacy.

23218 ▶▶▶▶ Tom Blackburn, replying to Back To Normal, 27, #1259 of 1704 🔗

Boris a shit house of the highest order. Goes with the flow and is a shirker to boot.

23222 ▶▶▶▶ IanE, replying to Back To Normal, 12, #1260 of 1704 🔗

Much more like Blair with WMDs – the main difference being that now the WMDs are real and have been set on us by Boris and co.

23232 ▶▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to Back To Normal, 17, #1261 of 1704 🔗

Ah, but Boris never specified which science.
At the moment it resembles science fiction.

23266 ▶▶▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Lms23, 6, #1262 of 1704 🔗

Now that would explain a lot!

23300 ▶▶▶▶▶ paulito, replying to Lms23, 3, #1263 of 1704 🔗

The science they follow is whatever the so called scientists are paid to come up with.

23684 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ djaustin, replying to paulito, #1264 of 1704 🔗

They’re not paid.

23294 ▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Back To Normal, 3, #1265 of 1704 🔗

That’s because he is not actually in charge.

23398 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Back To Normal, #1266 of 1704 🔗

Well the key words are “.. is being led”.

He’s supposed to be the leader!

23221 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to kh1485, 4, #1267 of 1704 🔗

Of course the pro-lockdown ones are doubtless wrapped in blankets and huddled under their beds!

23233 ▶▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to IanE, 4, #1268 of 1704 🔗

Or in Westminster, protesting something.

23220 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Back To Normal, 3, #1269 of 1704 🔗

Well, he might finally respond, but the genie cannot be put back in the bottle. The only question now is how much of each item on your list that we get: it will certainly be a lot!

23229 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to Back To Normal, 7, #1270 of 1704 🔗

We should all start referring to it as the New Abnormal.

23236 ▶▶ Tenchy, replying to Back To Normal, 8, #1271 of 1704 🔗

“New normal” is even worse than “calling out” something you disagree with, or “protesting” rather than “protesting against”. I guess “new normal” is an Americanism, like the others.

23260 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Back To Normal, 11, #1272 of 1704 🔗

Well said Adam!!! I think many people are still labouring under the delusion that we can never be safe until the vaccine is found or the virus is eradicated. They’re closing their eyes to the consequences of the lockdown and social distancing and that its has nothing to do with the virus.

23295 ▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Bart Simpson, #1273 of 1704 🔗

I agree. It’s all going to plan. . . . .

23267 ▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to Back To Normal, 19, #1274 of 1704 🔗

If the old normal is:

  • being jailed for writing things on twitter
  • being forced to agree that men are women
  • allowing children to have sex change treatment if they say they want it
  • cheering on an emotionally damaged, developmentally retarded 16 year old Swedish girl telling the world what to do about climate policy
  • thinking politicians have our best interests at heart
  • thinking that unlimited migration is mandatory and a benefit to us
  • believing the EU prevents war in europe
  • letting muslims pray in churches
  • thinking that being tracked 24/7 is for our own safety
  • agreeing that we are all racist without even knowing it (but only if you are white), yet also everybody is the same and there is no such thing as genetic differences
  • that the BBC is impartial

Well… i’m willing to give a new normal a go. Maybe just not the one westminster wants me to have.

23317 ▶▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to Edgar Friendly, 5, #1275 of 1704 🔗

Get back in your hole, Swampy.

23283 ▶▶ MiriamW, replying to Back To Normal, 1, #1276 of 1704 🔗

Boris Johnson will not do this. Was he guided by the brainwashed public over the Cummings affair? The media have been in partnership with the government since before the lockdown – their job was to build up the fear and they are still at it. Bought-off scientists are also doing their bit.

The public are truly brainwashed but I just do not buy the line that the Government is pandering to public fear in failing to stop the lockdown. They could do this tomorrow if they wanted to, see Peter Hitchens, Dr John Lee etc.

A coup is in progress; parliament and the judiciary have been sidelined. The perpetrators are fully committed to the course they are on and the public is being distracted from realising what is going on.

Only those of us who are awake can resist by trying to wake up the others and I know only too well that this is an uphill task!

23293 ▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Back To Normal, 5, #1277 of 1704 🔗

Boris Johnson will not do this. Was he guided by the brainwashed public over the Cummings affair? The media have been in partnership with the government since before the lockdown – their job was to build up the fear and they are still at it. Bought-off scientists are also doing their bit.

The public are truly brainwashed but I just do not buy the line that the Government is pandering to public fear in failing to stop the lockdown. They could do this tomorrow if they wanted to, see Peter Hitchens, Dr John Lee etc.

A coup is in progress; parliament and the judiciary have been sidelined. The perpetrators are fully committed to the course they are on and the public is being distracted from realising what is going on.

Only those of us who are awake can resist by trying to wake up the others and I know only too well that this is an uphill task!

23386 ▶▶▶ Back To Normal, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 5, #1278 of 1704 🔗

I respectfully disagree that the government would not turn based on public opinion. I would summarise where we are with Boris along these lines:

He now realises that he has made a huge mistake (he’d have to be a bit thick not to – and I don’t believe he is that stupid).

I think he would actually like to scrap all of the lockdown measures but he can’t easily do that, for 2 reasons:

  1. It would require him to admit that he was wrong in the first place. But, he does have the “he was following the science” card to play in this regard so there is a potential way for him to navigate through this particular problem.
  2. The bigger problem for Boris is the brainwashed public. He’s more interested in public opinion than doing the right thing for the country, and the brainwashed public are terrified about lifting lockdown – so he’s got an uphill struggle there to convince the public. This problem is of the government’s own making, and this is where I think they made a massive mis-calculation early on.

Boris has absolutely no leadership qualities, so he finds it difficult to make decisions unless he believes he has the public backing.

As for the Cummings affair, I actually think that may have been a clever smoke screen to avoid the press focusing on teacher’s unions and parents concerns about schools re-opening the following week. I’m afraid that Cummings is actually a lot cleverer than your average media journalist, so he is able to manipulate them without them even noticing.

I think if the brainwashed public could be awakened, we actually stand a good chance of ending this nightmare.

23400 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, #1279 of 1704 🔗

I’m afraid I wholeheartedly agree with your diagnosis.

23354 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Back To Normal, 7, #1280 of 1704 🔗

Above all the “new normal” is against nature. We are social creatures. Anyone who tries to go against that in any pervasive or persistent way is going down the wrong road. I don’t belive in God (I don’t have the wiring) but surely He’s not in favour of indefinite social distancing?

23228 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to Bella Donna, 2, #1282 of 1704 🔗

“Therefore, it’s reasonable to wonder if the extreme response to COVID-19, and its associated virus SARS-COV-2, could be another psychological operation against the public.”

They’re doing a far better job of convincing the public that they don’t have a f-clue.

23401 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Lms23, #1283 of 1704 🔗


23282 ▶▶ ianric, replying to Bella Donna, 6, #1284 of 1704 🔗

The article by Off Guardian mentions population control could be a reason behind lockdown. When you examine the effects of lockdown , it is a perfect method of achieving population control.

Initially under lockdown rules you couldn’t meet people outside your household which meant couples who don’t live together couldn’t meet. Under revised rules you can only meet outside which would make it difficult for couples to maintain relationships. Venues such as pubs, nightclubs, restaurants, theatres where couples go for dates are unavailable. Couples can’t meet in each other’s homes. Recently a law was passed making it illegal for couples who don’t live together to have sex. If couples can’t sustain relationships they will not have children.

For single people it would be impossible to form new relationships due to coronavirus restrictions. Venues where people meet such as pubs, nightclubs and festivals are unavailable. It would be illegal to hold events which bring singles together eg speed dating and singles evening. Work is one area where people meet partners. Business closures, people being encouraged to work from home and job losses will prevent people meeting new partners at work. If people can’t form relationships, they will not have children.

Couples who live together will be discouraged from having children due to stress eg losing jobs.

The NHS has cancelled non covid treatments which will result in death. Suicides may increase due to stress caused by lockdown.

23302 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to ianric, 6, #1285 of 1704 🔗

Suicides will certainly increase because of the coming recession/1930s-depression. Well-known phenomenon!

23361 ▶▶▶▶ James007, replying to IanE, 4, #1286 of 1704 🔗

More people die from suicides annually (~800k) than have died of COVID-19.
Mental illness is a bigger killer than COVID-19 and will be this year. The lockdown will not save any lives.

23334 ▶▶▶ Mark H, replying to ianric, 1, #1287 of 1704 🔗

My 77 year old mother has twice been dismissed from hospital since late March.

First time was on the afternoon of the morning her x-ray revealed pulmonary embolisms.

Second time was yesterday, after being re-referred by her GP because she still can’t breath properly. The nurse told my dad on the phone “the hospital isn’t safe for her.” Brilliant. Oh, and she has dementia.

But at least she hasn’t been sent into a covid care home.

So, yeah, population control: thin the herd.

23351 ▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to Mark H, #1288 of 1704 🔗

People are not immortal Mark. My parents are the same age as your mother. My father has a trreatable prostate cancer. His treatment has been postponed for a month. We will all go at some time in any event.

23480 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mark H, replying to John P, 2, #1289 of 1704 🔗

Don’t think that I’m not aware of that. I’m not one of those “eradicate all causes of death” people, I’m completely pragmatic about all that. A few weeks ago I had a frank talk with my dad, who’s own mental health is deteriorating due to both him and my mum being in the “shielded category”: we’d been religiously observing this, not coming into their house, but instead “visiting” them in their front garden at a distance.

I asked him to carefully think about the quality of their remaining life and whether he wanted to continue with them “being shielded”.

Subsequently, myself and my kids have been in their home. My mum’s been teaching my daughter to bake and knit.

In other words, when you’re in your late 70s, you should be aware that the clock is ticking and you should live your life. Unlike the people who are shocked and surprised with people in their late 80s and early 90s have died*.

However, my mum should have had her lung problem dealt with in hospital, not told “hospital isn’t safe for you”. We can’t forget that we’ve been told to “protect the NHS”, which came before “save lives” in the government’s 3 part slogan.

*I saw one tweet from a person who gravely announced that their grandmother, born in 1928, had died “of covid”, not “of being 90-fucking-2”.

23481 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Mark H, 2, #1290 of 1704 🔗

Every time I see the words “Save the NHS” or “our NHS” I scream silently inside. The NHS treated my late mother appallingly badly, and my late sister with breast cancer even worse. I know there are good doctors and nurses trying to do their best, but the whole system needs taking apart and rebuilding from the ground up.

23350 ▶▶▶ John P, replying to ianric, 2, #1291 of 1704 🔗

I haven’t read the article, but I really don’t think “population control” is the agenda. Not in a country where many people believe there should be open borders. Your idea is much too elaborate.

I am single as I have said before and cannot meet anyone. I’m generally able to cope these days, though I have my off moments. Living alone isn’t always so terrible. I like solitude and seclusion.

With the lockdown it is not so much the being alone, but the fact that it is being imposed.

The human population continues to grow. I doubt anything will stop it. We are certainly saving up some severe problems for the coming centuries.

Overpopulation IS a problem. We ought to at least acknowledge that.

23484 ▶▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to John P, 3, #1292 of 1704 🔗

“With the lockdown it is not so much the being alone, but the fact that it is being imposed.”
Exactly what I feel John. I’m used to living alone but the lockdown really got to me mentally because of this. I have been both furiously angry and thoroughly depressed and on some days utterly suicidal at the thought of the future, and the way our country has been destroyed in a few short weeks. I’m retired and I just wanted to spend my days with my animals, my land, growing my own herbs and veg and fruit. To be left alone by Big Brother. Yet here we are, with the most awful interference in our lives, and I’m furious.

23352 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to ianric, #1293 of 1704 🔗

Don’t forget that divorce rates and abortion rates could skyrocket. Especially the latter with looming job losses and bankruptcy as couples who can’t afford to raise a child will decide to terminate a pregnancy.

23492 ▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to ianric, #1294 of 1704 🔗

It definitely sounds this way but I’ve always thought that reducing the birth rate in a country with a rapidly ageing population is a recipe for total disaster. It’s already going that way anyway without lockdown and it’s a demographic time bomb waiting to happen.

23224 Felice, replying to Felice, 4, #1295 of 1704 🔗

I get your criticism unlike others here. The only thing that is relevant to this comments section is the social distancing/congregating aspect, especially when compared with the treatment of other demonstrations against lockdown that were not allowed.

Whether you are pro or anti or even indifferent to BLM is not the point here.

Actually, there’s another aspect which is relevant. In a couple of weeks time, there may or may not be a ‘spike’ in new cases/deaths. If there is, I’m frightened that lockdown will be tightened again. If there is not, it will be overlooked and forgotten about as it would show that the virus is finished.

23253 ▶▶ OKUK, replying to Felice, 8, #1296 of 1704 🔗

Well I think it’s a bit more than just the social distancing issue that connects these subject areas. There’s also the preparedness of the MSM to lie by omission, tell flat out lies (e.g.the BBC’s claim that a mounted Police officer “knocked herself off her horse”) and promote a particular narrative.

23256 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to OKUK, 5, #1297 of 1704 🔗

Also the other specific points made by Toby about the underlying dishonesty of BLM, like coronapanic, and the similarity in motivation and behaviour of those pushing both movements:

Asking people to socially distance was, at bottom, a form of puritanical virtue-signalling, an opportunity for holier-than-thou elites to boss around the little people. So of course that “scientific advice” has now been trumped by another even bossier, even more self-righteous form of virtue-signalling: anti-racist sermonising.
The fact that the two are completely at odds with each other doesn’t seem to bother them. Just so long as they can wag their fingers in our faces as they turn puce with rage, they’re happy .”

23230 Mark H, replying to Mark H, 10, #1298 of 1704 🔗

“I Can’t Breathe” – seen written on signs and even on masks. I understand the reference, but there’s a weird connection to what the protestors mean and what it means in relation to COVID-19. Can’t put my finger on why I’m troubled by the correlation.

23240 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Mark H, 3, #1299 of 1704 🔗

Maybe it’s that we’re all George Floyd and we can’t breathe because they won’t take their knee off our kneck.

23245 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Nobody2020, 17, #1300 of 1704 🔗

But we aren’t all a convicted armed robber who tried to use fake money and resist arrest. What did we do to get this treatment? I suppose collective societal stupidity could be sufficient explanation.

23259 ▶▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to Nobody2020, 3, #1301 of 1704 🔗

My neck has been aching today but i thought it was because i slept badly last night due to the wankers in the flat behind mine doing coke and nitrous and screaming at the top of their lungs until 10am, actually knowing it’s because there’s a knee on my neck makes a lot more sense.

23405 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Nobody2020, 3, #1302 of 1704 🔗

From a comment on The Slog:

That hold is a standard Israeli defence force training hold. Since most of the USA’s and many of our police are now undergoing training in Israel expect a more aggressive police response in future. However I demonstrated that hold to my wife today. If you look the officers right knee and the point of his boot they are both on the ground. The left leg is pressed against his neck , it’s actually very difficult to do anything but bring controlling pressure to bear on the victim in that mode. Your whole body weight cannot be brought to bear on the neck until you lift your right leg off the ground, then you can exert a light pressure or a neck break, up to the person being arrested.
It also transpires that Mr Floyd was “high” on Fentanyl which has a severe side effect of respiratory depression and this depression can last much longer than the high for which the drug was taken. Hence the “I cannot breath” cries. There is also problem that Fentanyl is a strong analgesic used in surgery for short duration pain control. So someone who is high but feeling little or no pain when you hit him is going to take 4 officers to subdue him and he was a big guy. In all my years in Hospital Pharmacy never knew anyone steal Fentanyl , virtually everything else but not that, it’s a really bad drug of abuse.


23269 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Mark H, 8, #1303 of 1704 🔗

Incidentally, from fighting practice of yore, when one cannot breathe, one certainly cannot say “I can’t breathe.”.

23411 ▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to JohnB, 4, #1304 of 1704 🔗

From clinical practice and grappling practice, if you can say, ‘I can’t breathe’, you’re breathing. That’s why ‘tapping out’ is so important.

23345 ▶▶ John P, replying to Mark H, 2, #1305 of 1704 🔗

The same thought occurred to me on Friday night.

23257 Bart Simpson, replying to Bart Simpson, 29, #1306 of 1704 🔗

Greetings Fellow Sceptics!

As today is hubby’s birthday we set off for Central London where we had a good day walking down the Southbank – a few muzzle wearers but people generally minding their own business and no social distancing.

We also went down Chinatown for a spot of retail therapy and treating ourselves to our favourite roast duck. Again no-one was following any social distancing and no queues and one way systems inside the shop. The only downside was not understanding the staff as some of them were wearing muzzles but one of them actually removed his when the woman in front of me in the queue politely asked him to repeat what he had asked her. It was a far cry from my clash with the rude post office worker a few weeks’ ago.

I had to say today was a good day – despite the circumstances today was a reminder what what makes life worth living.

The only downside was the lack of toilets and for that we had to cut our day out short despite the fact that we wanted to continue down Covent Garden!

23261 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Bart Simpson, 9, #1307 of 1704 🔗

You’re back on what Bec here referred to as “ the urinary leash “, the other day. A bit of feminist history of which I was unaware until she drew attention to it.

23270 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Mark, #1308 of 170