Last updated2020-06-08T18:26:31



23891 Laura, replying to Laura, 35, #1 of 751 🔗

ASYMPTOTIC people spreading coronavirus is very rare. Hallelujah. Will anyone listen????

23893 ▶▶ Laura, replying to Laura, 2, #2 of 751 🔗

Asymptomatic, sorry. Stupid autocorrect

23904 ▶▶ TheyFoughtForOurFreedom, replying to Laura, 18, #3 of 751 🔗

Asymptotic spreading isn’t so far from the truth now, it is asmyptoting towards a flat line of not spreading much further at all. And it would have done so still, perhaps rather quicker, if we hadn’t had this idiotic lockdown.

23907 ▶▶ jrsm, replying to Laura, 30, #4 of 751 🔗

Doesn’t that negate the need for everyone (that is, asymptomatic people) to wear masks? How can they say that and simultaneously insist that everyone wear masks?

23938 ▶▶▶ mark baker, replying to jrsm, 25, #5 of 751 🔗

Does that not obviate the need for lockdowns? Surely, the only need for lockdowns is because it’s believed apparently healthy people are out there spreading the virus. So you need to isolate everyone. If it’s only people with symptoms who spread, the solution is blindingly obvious: just quarantine them!!!

23947 ▶▶▶▶ South Coast Worker, replying to mark baker, 9, #6 of 751 🔗

Watch how absolutely no one reports this revelation until it’s needed to reach the public at large. They just put it out now as cover.

23986 ▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to mark baker, 17, #7 of 751 🔗

There was never any case for lockdowns asymptomatic spreaders or not.

It was also always far more likely that asymptomatic people would be spreading very little and this should have been the default assumption (it was mine) in the absence of evidence to the contrary.

All we ever needed is for people to stay at home when they’re ill.

We need one change to the law plus one recommendation to the public.

The law needs to make it illegal to have those clauses about needing a note from a Doctor if you’re off sick for more than two days. It’s a waste of time for the Doctor and nobody ever gets those notes.

The recommendation needs to be stay at home and go to bed if you’re ill. A cold usually lasts a week (or seven days if you take medication for it).

I have no objection to the traditional Japanese system of wearing a mask when you’re ill if you have to go out provided this is completely optional.

24105 ▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to guy153, 6, #8 of 751 🔗

If you had been running the country in. March, we wouldn’t be in this inconceivable mess now.

24206 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to annie, 8, #9 of 751 🔗

Or my Mum which is where I got the idea that you should go to bed if you’re ill 🙂 I don’t know how she arrived at this incredible scientific knowledge apparently without access to any sort of SAGE committee.

24120 ▶▶▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to guy153, 7, #10 of 751 🔗

Actually I agree with you about masks. If everyone who had a cold or a cough wore one if they had to go out in public, that would actually be helpful. I wouldn’t mind wearing one temporarily in a shop if I had a cold, but as you say, it must be optional. For the virus though, it’s unnecessary and a complete farce to make everyone wear one when they aren’t even sick.

24131 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to CarrieAH, 4, #11 of 751 🔗

Agree that they should be optional but they don’t help with colds and coughs either. Using tissues are more effective.

24302 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to CarrieAH, 3, #12 of 751 🔗

It wouldn’t because even the best surgical masks have pores three times the size of the virus. And if you’re infected you exhale about 10 million virus particles on every out breath. So even as it signals ‘threat’ it also breeds a false sense of security. Might as well give someone a bell to ring so people steer clear. If you’re ill stay at home.

24418 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to CarrieAH, -1, #13 of 751 🔗

You’re missing the point that healthy people don’t catch stuff in the first place, mask or not.

24147 ▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to guy153, 22, #14 of 751 🔗

No mention – or at least, next-to-no mention – this morning of yesterday’s WHO announcement in any of the papers or any of the news outlets. Plenty about Prince Andrew, something about schools not reopening further before September (ugh) or even later for secondary schools. Hand wringing about people who are in financial difficulties “because of the virus”.

I’ll be generous for a minute. I can accept that we might be genuinely concerned about the lethality of this virus. Personally, I think that those concerns are hugely overblown, but let’s just assume that I’ve been looking at the wrong evidence and that it really does kill a meaningful proportion of those infected by it. Let’s also assume that there are a significant number of people whose experience of the virus is so bad that they require hospitalisation and that we don’t have a health service that has the capacity to deal with the possible numbers of the very ill. I can see why the idea that the NHS might have been overwhelmed in the outbreak would have been so concerning that drastic action might have needed to be take. Let’s accept the possibility that the entire population is susceptible to the disease and that having had it may very well not confer any immunity (unlike virtually every other virus). So, I’m prepared to give the benefit of the doubt and say that it is understandable that there is continued cause for concern. Let’s even concede (though I don’t) that the risk of asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic spread was a justification for quarantining the healthy with the sick “just in case”.

But we have been taking onboard WHO advice since the beginning of the outbreak and our own “science” has been informed by their assessment of what’s going on. Why are we completely ignoring them now? And, even allowing that, just because something is “very rare” doesn’t mean that it never happens and so there is some continued risk, shouldn’t we at least be having a conversation about whether these measures are still necessary? Shouldn’t somebody be suggesting that a low risk of asymptomatic spread might mean that compulsory “stay at home” for anyone with symptoms and keeping up the public health message about hygiene might be enough to stop the disaster.

I can see that there are heads that don’t want to roll when the whole thing is exposed as a dangerously costly farce and so don’t want to allow people to start seeing that it has been. But surely thy must see that sceptical voices are being raised increasingly in other countries and that eventually it’s going to become clear that none of this is necessary? Surely it would be better for the government and SAGE to start saying now “we made the best decisions we could at the time based on the evidence that we had, but that evidence seems to have changed and we need to review everything now”? Surely it would be better to have reacted quickly when the evidence started to become clear? Surely that would be a better way to save your career?

Almost more to the point, surely at least one credible (?) news source should now be saying “given what we now think we know, isn’t it time that the government had a serious think about it?”

One of the most depressing things about all of this lunacy has been how quickly these draconian impositions have been accepted as normal. The default position is that all of the things that make up our way of life should be denied to us and that we must wait, eagerly but patiently to be be “allowed” to do any of the things that make life worth living, plainly put.

I can only assume that nobody wants the narrative to change. We’ve chosen our path and we must stick to it and we don’t want to hear that we might have been wrong.

And meanwhile, that fool Hancock stands up every weekday, posing as the high priest of the cult of the NHS and tells us how sorry he is that things can’t get better quicker and how proud he is of us all for what we have done so far in combating this unseen Satan.

24150 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to matt, 10, #15 of 751 🔗

You’ve pretty much articulated what’s wrong with politics and society now – the lack of humility, the insistence of staying the same course never mind if it brings misery and is becoming worse than what it set to protect us from, the narcissistic insistence that death is unacceptable.

Our leaders lack the backbone and cojones to admit that they have made a catastrophic error and to apologise. If they think the BLM demonstrations are bad now, wait until those who will be made unemployed over the next few months have had enough and take matters into their own hands.

24421 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to matt, 3, #16 of 751 🔗

You’ve hit every nail on the head.
It does feel like it’s been on rails since the get-go.

24415 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to guy153, #17 of 751 🔗

Asymptomatic transmission was the assumption at first, then the WHO provided the nudge with a bit of fake news and off the world went ….

24012 ▶▶▶▶ Bob, replying to mark baker, 5, #18 of 751 🔗

Exactly, in one report the whole premise for lockdown is dismantled

23967 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to jrsm, 11, #19 of 751 🔗

Because they want to reassure the zombies. Like putting elephant powder on the streets to keep the elephants away. There are no elephants, but the zombies don’t know that,

24119 ▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to jrsm, 12, #20 of 751 🔗

I think the muzzle wearing is only to try to make the folk still hiding behind their sofas feel safe enough to come out. Why on Earth we should have to do so because of their irrational fears and the fact they can’t be bothered to do their own research on the virus, is another matter.

24395 ▶▶ Invunche, replying to Laura, 10, #21 of 751 🔗

BBC are now, incredibly, reporting this.

I say incredibly because it makes their last 3 months of hysterical scaremongering make them look like a right set of pricks.

24397 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to Invunche, #22 of 751 🔗

Really? I noticed it was nowhere near their front page this morning and then actually did a search on the news site for world health organisation and found nothing.

24404 ▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to matt, 3, #23 of 751 🔗

Ah, yes. Found it. Jolly good.

Here’s the line they’re taking:
“ And since people who haven’t yet developed symptoms are unlikely to know that they are contagious, pre-symptomatic transmission has “important implications” for track, trace and isolation measures, Prof Javid said.
This emphasises the importance of lockdown measures in “massively reduc[ing] the numbers of people infected,” said Prof Liam Smeeth, an epidemiologist at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine.”
There you go. Panic over. The world has not changed. As you were.

24426 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to matt, 2, #24 of 751 🔗

They’ve reported it, then promptly disguised it in a load of bollox from a pet epidemiologist.

24427 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to matt, 1, #25 of 751 🔗

Hiding in the health section: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52977940

24403 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Invunche, 3, #26 of 751 🔗

Unless that was just the initial means of entry into the nwo.

Now they have laws in place and no meaningful population-wide dissent, BLM, global warming to come as per the schedule, and fucking aliens on the White House lawn if necessary, they can sing whichever tune they want.

The one thing they will NEVER say is “This was a coup, this is how things will be from now on, wake up people !”.

We need to do that ourselves.

24579 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to JohnB, 1, #27 of 751 🔗

Someone has posted re ‘military checkpoints’ in Wales. Ffs.

There’s only so long one can be amazed at government stupidity/incompetence/inability to hold a piss-up in a brewery. Before one’s conclusion should be reappraised using the latest evidence.

23892 Ethelred the Unready, replying to Ethelred the Unready, 4, #28 of 751 🔗

Boris isn’t in shot. He’s just the other side of the tavern door, busy ‘admiring the ample assets’ of the Pub’s best barmaid. He will be along shortly.

23899 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Ethelred the Unready, 4, #29 of 751 🔗

Well, you know what the man said, ‘Better a witty fool than a foolish wit’: Boris is the foolish fool!

23895 Mike Smith, replying to Mike Smith, 10, #30 of 751 🔗

Archbishop Viganò’s letter to President Donald Trump:

23897 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Mike Smith, 4, #31 of 751 🔗

I am not a religious man, but Amen!

23900 South Coast Worker, replying to South Coast Worker, 54, #32 of 751 🔗

In two weeks.

Why aren’t thousands of people dropping like flies after all these protests of tens of thousands do people?
Oh, we’ve just found out that asymptomatic people aren’t infectious.

What a joke. ‘The Science’ is changed to fit the narrative. It’s so bloody brazen now. When indeed nothing happens in two weeks, how on earth can any lockdown measure stay in place. If the public weren’t so thick.

23903 ▶▶ Laura, replying to South Coast Worker, 8, #33 of 751 🔗

My only hope is that when infections rise in the winter (like THE FLU), that we may be able to admit our massive, insane mistake. Also, MORE media outlets better report that from WHO!!

23936 ▶▶▶ South Coast Worker, replying to Laura, 15, #34 of 751 🔗

It won’t be reported. They’ll just disseminate this information under the radar to give themselves cover for when anyone questions the lack of impact from the protests with regard death rate. It SHOULD be the headline of every single paper and news bulletin. This completely discredits all social distancing and makes wearing masks totally unnecessary in a week when wearing them on certain places is a legal requirement. Absolute joke.

24104 ▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to Laura, 7, #35 of 751 🔗

More likely I think that this would be sold to us as the second/third/fourth wave – after all the rules don’t even require a test and the symptoms overlap. After a year of destroying peoples livelihoods and subjecting them the excess stress it would not be surprising for there to be more illness then normal this winter.

Not to worry though we will have the tried and trusted lockdown and track and trace up and running and even a vaccine so we will all be saved ! Saved to death that is.

23914 ▶▶ Gracie Knoll, replying to South Coast Worker, 55, #36 of 751 🔗

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. The reason for the lockdown given by Her Majesty’s Muppets was to STOP THE NHS BEING OVERWHELMED.

Not, repeat NOT to “stop the virus from spreading”! You CAN’T stop a virus from spreading unless everyone is put in a plastic hermetically-sealed bubble and spends the rest of their life there.

The initial reasoning – preventing NHS overwhelm – was understandable at the time when the IFR of this virus was unknown.

But the NHS wasn’t overwhelmed and certainly isn’t now. The Nightingales are empty and most ICUs have surplus capacity.

And we know that the average IFR of the virus is 0.26%, similar to a bad flu. (CDC latest figures.) Most people other than the established “vulnerable” groups – elderly with co-morbidities, the immunocompromised, the generally unhealthy (eg young morbidly obese alcoholics taking polypharmacy) – have a 99+% chance of recovery, same as with the flu.

So why are we still locked down?

Well, it would seem that certain vested interests haven’t completed their agendas yet.

Follow the money. Follow the money. Follow the money.

23933 ▶▶▶ Sceptique, replying to Gracie Knoll, 8, #37 of 751 🔗

Astrazenica is making billions of doses of vaccines ‘just in case’ even though they admit it’s not properly tested yet. They plan to roll it out on the public in September, ‘Caveat Emptor’. Maybe they got the idea from Roche, who made millions with Tamiflu after Sars, but faked the trials and it didn’t end up working at all. At least that didn’t harm anyone, although who knows?


23977 ▶▶▶▶ Montag Smith, replying to Sceptique, 7, #38 of 751 🔗

I wouldn’t have a vaccine that had been developed and tested far quicker than normal.

24429 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Montag Smith, 1, #39 of 751 🔗

I wouldn’t voluntarily have any unnecessary vaccine, full stop.

24068 ▶▶▶ Sally, replying to Gracie Knoll, 25, #40 of 751 🔗

The initial reasoning was NOT understandable. There are zillions of epidemiologists out there who know about epidemics and new disease outbreaks. They know about ascertainment bias; they know that if the CFR at the start of a new disease outbreak is 3.2% the IFR is going to be one-tenth that or less. We’ve been through this before umpteen times. On top of that we had all the data from China and Italy in February and early March showing that serious illness and death are heavily skewed to aged people with multiple comorbidities.

If we accept that lockdown was understandable because of limited information, which is quite untrue, we have furnished an excuse for this happening again and again in the future.

24115 ▶▶▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to Sally, 2, #41 of 751 🔗

Well said. The question for any independent public enquiry into this debacle will be: on what data did the government rely for its illiberal, quite possible illegal, measures? The answer, as with the French strategic reserve in 1940, can only be, quite simply: ‘Aucune!’

23966 ▶▶ Skippy, replying to South Coast Worker, 14, #42 of 751 🔗

I’ve the distinct impression we’re Currently being taken for mugs. And we will remember those people. Bumpkin Hancock and PartTime Johnson

23979 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to Skippy, 21, #43 of 751 🔗

Sadly, I think that the overwhelming majority of the population have proved themselves beyond doubt to be mugs. So we haven’t been taken for anything we don’t deserve.

23985 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Skippy, 8, #44 of 751 🔗

Read Wankock’s replies to the briefing questions. He completely and brazenly ignores the latest facts and figures.
Wriggle, wriggle, wriggle.
2nd wave ….2nd wave …. 2nd wave ….

24221 ▶▶ Sceptique, replying to South Coast Worker, #45 of 751 🔗

Improvisation. Gotta save face every time.

23901 TheyFoughtForOurFreedom, replying to TheyFoughtForOurFreedom, -24, #46 of 751 🔗

It seems a bit heartless to say. but “nice to see those posh schools closing”. Obviously the job losses for experienced teachers will be tragic, and its not very fair on any parents who were rich enough to pay for private education and wished to do so. Also to tell the truth primary and secondary education isn’t as important as FE college or Uni, so the posh schools aren’t doing that much. But it is satisfying to see that the barbaric lockdown policies are bringing about the demise of the places which produced our current crop of paternalist politicians. Maybe those who grow up in whatever schools remain in this time of fanatical social distancing and deluded red tape (because as any present bureaucrat will tell you a thin line of red tape stops all the viruses which subtle sensible measures surely can’t) will be furiously anti-health-and-safety and utterly resenting of all authoritarian busybodies by the time they can hold office.

23913 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to TheyFoughtForOurFreedom, 29, #47 of 751 🔗

Interesting viewpoint. However not all kids attending private schools are posh and will ‘produce paternalistic politicians’. In fact many kids attending private schools are from working class houses, that skimp to pay the fees because their kids have special learning needs or experienced issues in some state schools. In fact one local private school has 30% special learning needs children and many families are not wealthy/elite.

If private schools close and parents can no longer afford the fees it will put much more pressure on already pressured state schools. Classes are already big and can only become bigger.

What is needed is more spending on education and improve teaching at state schools. Unfortunately we have an approach of the lowest common denominator where bright or special needs kids are ignored. Then you have the influence of unions that is currently preventing the opening of schools and children are missing out on education and social development.

23917 ▶▶▶ TheyFoughtForOurFreedom, replying to Victoria, 5, #48 of 751 🔗

Oops, perhaps my point wasn’t so well made. I quite agree that education in general in this country is very far downhill and still dropping, I just thought there might be a silver lining in some misery for the types who go on to take the PPE course at Oxford. Great shame about anyone who wasn’t on there way to being a paternalistic politician who has had their future disrupted by this disastrous lockdown.

23930 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to TheyFoughtForOurFreedom, 13, #49 of 751 🔗

See one of my best friends – same state school as me – ended up at Oxford doing PPE* – and is now a social worker. She abhors the thought of going into politics, I think because she is a product of her working class background and wants to help people who grew up like her. Sadly she is just the sort of person we NEED in politics. So it doesn’t even matter what uni you end up at, in theory, it’s all about the attitude you are born and bred into by going to one of those schools. It’s not even about ‘who you know’ when you get to uni – it’s about who you *already* knew before you even got there.

*I am day by day made well aware just how excellent my school was (now it is an academy and it’s shit, thanks BLiar). We had 6 people go to Oxbridge in my year – this didn’t even include me, because I went for my master’s! (after years of being the gobshite in the back row who everyone thought was thick because I was lairy), although we were a ‘freaky’ year apparently. Anyway, my point is, I know I would have been screwed without that school and it breaks my heart that kids these days in a similar position to me won’t get that privilege.

23937 ▶▶▶ South Coast Worker, replying to Victoria, 2, #50 of 751 🔗

The private schools where I live are about 12 grand a year. No matter how much scrimping one does there’s no way anyone but the very wealthy can afford that.

23990 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to South Coast Worker, -1, #51 of 751 🔗

I’ve always assumed that if there were no private schools, the state schools would suddenly have much smaller classes and adequate equipment.

24008 ▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Cheezilla, 4, #52 of 751 🔗

Why? The people who are paying the private school fees are also paying their taxes to fund the state schools. There won’t suddenly be more money in the system, just more pupils.

I suppose that there will be more unemployed teachers, so teachers might get cheaper.

24434 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to matt, #53 of 751 🔗

The point is that, if they can’t opt out, the moneyed classes will insist on better standards for their little dears. A bit like those who use state schools but can afford to move house if they don’t like the local comprehensive.

24444 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Cheezilla, 1, #54 of 751 🔗

No, no they won’t. They’ll just do what a lot of their economic peers already do and what a lot ofthe people in the socio-economic band immediately below them already do and move to houses in the catchment areas of good state schools. So house prices go up in those areas.

24024 ▶▶▶▶▶ Louise, replying to Cheezilla, 5, #55 of 751 🔗

The opposite would happen. The richest people would send their children to boarding school in Switzerland etc and the rest of the kids would flood state schools.

24061 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Louise, -1, #56 of 751 🔗

Surely we could just build more state schools….?
There aren’t that many kids, proportionally, in private schools anyway, are there?

24062 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Farinances, #57 of 751 🔗

And yes, we’d get the best teachers back seeing as sadly they now all fuck off to teach in the private system where they get paid five times as much

24436 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Louise, #58 of 751 🔗

Switzerland would replace Eton. The rest of their sprogs would join the state system and there would be clamouring for improvement.

24076 ▶▶▶▶▶ Adele Bull, replying to Cheezilla, 2, #59 of 751 🔗

Why? The government doesn’t fund private schools the parents do. Stare schools will be swamped with the pupils from private schools and classes will be bigger.

24437 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Adele Bull, #60 of 751 🔗

Read my reasoning above.

24121 ▶▶▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to South Coast Worker, #61 of 751 🔗

The wealthiest parents subsidise the others through a bursary system. At state schools, the weathiest parents pay tuition fees to improve their children’s chances……….

24030 ▶▶▶ Louise, replying to Victoria, 2, #62 of 751 🔗

Yes I do agree with this. State schools should be the absolutely most essential thing we spend our money (not that we now have any) on as a nation but with guidance from private schools who get so many things right ie focusing on community, sport, music etc

23923 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to TheyFoughtForOurFreedom, 2, #63 of 751 🔗

The comprehensive schooled hero of the proletariat inside me agrees.
The ordinary person who has many privately educated friends doesn’t.
(Close Eton though, seriously. Drop them all in the nearest state school and we’ll see who ends up Prime Minister ;p )

23969 ▶▶ Nic, replying to TheyFoughtForOurFreedom, 5, #64 of 751 🔗

To be fair education will be a waste of time in the new normal Fucking hate that expression

23987 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to TheyFoughtForOurFreedom, 9, #65 of 751 🔗

What gets me is that every time it’s reported, it’s the virus that’s caused them to close, not the bloody lockdown!

23998 ▶▶ Jonathan Castro, replying to TheyFoughtForOurFreedom, 1, #66 of 751 🔗

I don’t have anything against private schools.
Or grammar schools. The problem with these however is that they are no longer situated in deprived areas.

24065 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Jonathan Castro, 2, #67 of 751 🔗

I thought I had a problem with grammar schools.
Actually…. maybe I still do. I don’t have a problem with them in principle if you could judge young kids adequately on the strength of examinations.

My parents are perfect examples. Both intelligent people, but my mum is arguably more academic. WAY more academic. My dad passed his 11 plus. My mum failed. My dad went to a grammar school, titted about (because he is a doer not a thinker), and failed all his O levels. My mum went to a shit comprehensive and passed all hers. She would have been served way better by that grammar school place, but because she came from a very poor family, had no time to study, wasn’t that great at exams until she got older etc. etc. she was deprived of it. My dad wasted his place. He went on to do an appreniceship and ended up an engineer with no qualifications (because that’s just how he learns). My mum ended up working in finance but even now regrets that she never went to university – I’m sure she would have been afforded more encouragement and tuition to get her there had she gone to a grammar school.

It’s a sad system that wastes and misapplies talent. And often doesn’t achieve what it sets out to – the richer families invest money in making sure their kids pass, the poorer families, no matter how bright their kids, still fall behind.

24439 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Farinances, #68 of 751 🔗

Well said.

24015 ▶▶ Louise, replying to TheyFoughtForOurFreedom, 23, #69 of 751 🔗

This is ridiculous and ignorant. Me and my husband work bloody hard to send our kids to private school. We aren’t driving around in Bentleys, we sacrifice nearly all of our disposable income after essentials to provide them with this opportunity. It isn’t so that they will have privilege over others, it is for the experience. Many private schools, especially junior schools, have a phenomenal sense of community where teachers dedicate their whole lives to their jobs. These schools more often than not shy away from the culture of safetyism and allow free thinking, tree climbing and knee-scraping. Most private schools, staff, parents and kids are desperate to get back to normality. The schools my kids are at provide scholarships and placements for disadvantaged bright kids from the local area. Not all private school are Eton and Harrow, most are small and paid for by hard working, relatively ordinary people. For you to be satisfied at this shows how misinformed you are. If it satisfies you to carry on believing this nonsense then don’t let me stop you but I doubt you have any real knowledge of the schools you speak of.

24021 ▶▶▶ Louise, replying to Louise, 7, #70 of 751 🔗

Also, if those middle of the road private schools close and fewer people can afford them then the gap widens. Eton, Harrow and all the other £35k+ per year etc stay open and private school is only for the extremely rich. At the same time the state schools get flooded with an influx of kids but their resources stay as they are. The Boris dePfeffel type pupils of Britain wouldn’t even notice a thing.

24186 ▶▶▶ Tarquin Von Starheim, replying to Louise, 1, #71 of 751 🔗

Well said Louise. We are in the same boat. After a lot of soul searching and spreadsheet building to make sure we could make it work financially, we decided to pull our children out of the local ‘outstanding’ state primary school for various reasons and sent them to a local private junior school. I am so glad we made that call for the reasons you outline above, but what surprised me most was the hugely diverse set of parents representing all walks of life, wealth levels, political views, nationalities, religions. It was an unforeseen benefit but we felt so glad to escape from the white liberal middle class bubble that represented 95% of the parent group at the state primary.
So I find this news incredibly sad and I sincerely hope that my children’s school does not suffer the same fate.

24075 ▶▶ Adele Bull, replying to TheyFoughtForOurFreedom, 11, #72 of 751 🔗

So you think that primary schools don’t matter and you seem to have completely forgotten the children involved in the closure of these schools!! Wow!! The pupils of these schools will NEVER go back to the same school, be with their friends, finish their, no doubt, excellent education. Where do you think they will all go now? State schools are all full. Shocking comment.

24118 ▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to TheyFoughtForOurFreedom, 5, #73 of 751 🔗

That’ll be an immediate £400m required in extra taxes for the 7% of British pupils relocating from private to state schools, plus a school building program, teacher training etc plus the loss of foreign currency from overseas pupils attending private schools here, plus the destruction of a British export success story, overseas branches of private schools again bringing foreign currency back to this country……and so on

How much more harm do we really want to do to ourselves after this most recent massive shot in the foot……….?

24274 ▶▶ ianp, replying to TheyFoughtForOurFreedom, 4, #74 of 751 🔗

I don’t really know the definition of what is a ‘posh school’ anymore. I grew up in a tough working class neighbourhood in the late 80s but went to grammar school. That was when you took an 11plus exam and then could apply for a place, there were a large number of grant assisted places available. My parents could not have paid any of the fees.

The end result was that said school was a healthy 50 50 mix of rich kids and grant assisted (ie. Working class like me).. That grant assisted program has since been phased out

Was this a good thing? I can’t really say, but it helped me in my life, and gave me opportunities that’s for sure.

Right now, that school is overwhelmingly fee based and so is now seemingly struggling. I know because I received a letter from them last week asking to donate!

I don’t know what the answer is, but to celebrate the demise of high quality educational institutions is not it.

23902 Bumble, replying to Bumble, 20, #75 of 751 🔗

Matt Hancock needs the ventilator makers to switch to large umbrella manufacturing so we can still go the pub when it’s raining…….

23905 ▶▶ TheyFoughtForOurFreedom, replying to Bumble, 4, #76 of 751 🔗

Pubs I think already have large outside umberellas, claiming of course that they are to protect against sunshine but when do we in britain get that, oh yes, only when we’re trapped under a lockdown jackboot.

23906 Gracie Knoll, replying to Gracie Knoll, 37, #77 of 751 🔗

I note the linked article in “Conservative Woman”

“Boris taken prisoner by scientists.”

Now, find out who those scientists are in the back pocket of, and you’ll have one of the answers to this whole charade.

Hint: the total absence of advice on how to acquire natural herd immunity, how to raise resistance to the virus (healthy diet, sunlight, vitamin D supplements etc.), how to treat hospitalised patients effectively (eg intravenous vitamin C at megadose)

AND : “we can’t go back to normal til we have THE vaccine, THE vaccine, THE vaccine, THE vaccine…….”

Yeah right. Flu jabs work 10-50% of the time. We had 24,330 UK deaths from flu in 2014 WITH a flu vaccine and 50,000 UK deaths from flu during 2017-18 WITH a flu vaccine.

But this new “miracle” vaccine will no doubt be 100% effective. Well, it’ll be 100% effective in making some people billionaires and I suspect some of our “expert scientists” advising Boris will become millionaires. (Not that they’d put money before scientific integrity, the welfare of their fellow man, or the fate of their immortal souls, of course. Perish the thought.)

23909 ▶▶ TheyFoughtForOurFreedom, replying to Gracie Knoll, 7, #78 of 751 🔗

Economics is a science too, I wish it could be a group of economists instead of epidemiologists who took Boris prisoner.

23993 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to TheyFoughtForOurFreedom, #79 of 751 🔗

Any group other than epidemiologists!

24452 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to TheyFoughtForOurFreedom, 6, #80 of 751 🔗

Economics is not a science – it just wants to be one when it grows up.

Same could be said of epidemiology, to be fair, from what I can see.

23951 ▶▶ Sceptique, replying to Gracie Knoll, 11, #81 of 751 🔗

Science has become too ‘clever’ for its own good. The human body’s own immune system is designed to fight off most pathogens, but only when it’s healthy (ie clean food and water, sanitation etc). It’s a little known fact that many of the diseases that vaccines take credit for curing were actually pretty much eradicated through clean water and sanitation about 20 years before vaccines were even invented. Statistics all available at the ONS.

23984 ▶▶▶ Montag Smith, replying to Sceptique, -4, #82 of 751 🔗

“It’s a little known fact that many of the diseases that vaccines take credit for curing were actually pretty much eradicated through clean water and sanitation about 20 years before vaccines were even invented. Statistics all available at the ONS.”

Except measles, smallpox and polio to name some obvious ones.

24050 ▶▶▶▶ Sceptique, replying to Montag Smith, 7, #83 of 751 🔗
24055 ▶▶▶▶▶ Sceptique, replying to Sceptique, 10, #84 of 751 🔗
24056 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Sceptique, replying to Sceptique, 13, #85 of 751 🔗

Typhoid and Scarlet Fever declined anyway there was no vaccine. The others had already declined considerably due to improvement in health and sanitation. Vaccines came in at the tail end. Coronavirus will also decline naturally it has already started happening, but this is a very inconvenient truth.

24073 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Sceptique, 7, #86 of 751 🔗

Nice one Sceptique. 🙂

Anonymous, I think the word the yoof use for your situation is ‘pwned’.

24085 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Sarigan, replying to JohnB, 5, #87 of 751 🔗

He’s gone very quiet. Nicely done Sceptique.

24660 ▶▶▶ djaustin, replying to Sceptique, #88 of 751 🔗

How’s that working for Ebola? Since you are clearly an excellent specimen, I’d like to volunteer you for the first trial to test this excellent hypothesis.

23995 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Gracie Knoll, 15, #89 of 751 🔗

Bill Gates has already said we can expect 700,000 people to die from the vaccine – so more than have died of the virus then? Hmm…

24283 ▶▶▶ Sceptique, replying to Carrie, 6, #90 of 751 🔗

I guess he’s being honest about it, since he has already stated on the public record that we need to reduce the population. His covert sterilisation ‘tetanus’ vaccination of millions of African women wasn’t effective enough, I suppose.


24433 ▶▶▶ Skippy, replying to Carrie, 1, #91 of 751 🔗

I’ll only take the vaccine after Bill, Melinda and their offspring are publicly vaccinated and ALL politicians and their kin too. Worldwide.
if they don’t I won’t

24306 ▶▶ ianp, replying to Gracie Knoll, 8, #92 of 751 🔗

I have never had a flu jab so why take this proposed ‘vaccine’? Not an ‘anti-vaxxer’ by any means, just don’t see the point, don’t need it, don’t want it.

It’s unbelievably sinister, but hey if the end result is ‘take the vaccine if you are scared/worried’ then fine.

Forcing a vaccination on the entire population will lead to civil war and demonstrations that will dwarf anything seen for BLM, I guarantee that.

24320 ▶▶▶ Sceptique, replying to ianp, 4, #93 of 751 🔗

I wonder if it will. A lot of people have been brainwashed, especially the young and so many facts are suppressed or ridiculed by the captured scientific establishment and media thought police.

24443 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Sceptique, #94 of 751 🔗

It depends how they enforce it. I suspect they have a plan.

23910 Julian, replying to Julian, 17, #95 of 751 🔗

Some interesting news this evening.

Imperial College are busy telling how many millions of lives have been saved by lockdowns, that we are just the start of this, miles away from herd immunity, and it could/will all start again soon. Let’s hope they are wrong. I don’t really understand why none of the European countries that have relaxed their lockdown restrictions are not seeing an increase in cases or hospital admissions.

The BBC report that cases are up in Florida and Texas, but then go on to say that they have done more testing than before in Florida. But that wasn’t in the headline.

And the WHO say the outbreak is worsening globally – but I can’t see that has so far had much impact on mortality numbers.

We really need to see data on hospitalisations to get any sense of what is really happening, while it’s happening.

23915 ▶▶ Richard Dale, replying to Julian, 5, #96 of 751 🔗

I wouldn’t trust Imperial to accurately predict a sun rise.

23916 ▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Julian, 3, #97 of 751 🔗

I’ve just seen the article in The Mail – ‘declare victory and move on’ on steroids. Guess this version of the model will be made available for peer review by those experts in computer programming, not to mention the ‘proper’ natural scientists who specialise in these things!

23919 ▶▶ Gracie Knoll, replying to Julian, 28, #98 of 751 🔗

Ah, that bastion of British scientific integrity Imperial College, home of Professor Lockdown who couldn’t keep his Cockdown. Funded by Bill Gates the Final Solution Vaccine man. So no conflict of interest there. Natural herd immunity is extremely bad for business, you see. So we must be a LONG way from acquiring it mustn’t we? The longer the better.

As ever, follow the money.

23924 ▶▶▶▶ Victoria, replying to arfurmo, 3, #100 of 751 🔗

Ha Ha

24002 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to arfurmo, 4, #101 of 751 🔗

Are people really swallowing this stuff?!

24066 ▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to arfurmo, 1, #102 of 751 🔗

That’s ICL again. Don’t they ever give up?

23922 ▶▶▶ TheyFoughtForOurFreedom, replying to Gracie Knoll, 24, #103 of 751 🔗

The people who cocked up the coding of the 737Max’s MCAS system cost hundreds of lives, the people who mixed metric and imperial measures when coding the Mars Climate Orbiter’s flightplan cost millions of dollars, Ferguson’s mistakes outweigh these thousands of times on both currency-loss and life-loss measures. Michael Levitt (Nobel prize winner for multi-scale chemistry modelling) has suggested that in epidemiology it is fine to be thousands of times too pessimistic in predictions as long as you aren’t too optimistic, epidemiologists it seems don’t care as they have never thought to count the losses to anything other than the disease they are presently modelling the spread of. Never in the field of human cockups has so much been cost to so many by such a screw up.

23928 ▶▶ Bob, replying to Julian, 2, #104 of 751 🔗

Plug the total population considered by Imperial and the IFR into the equation and see if you can get 3 million!

23934 ▶▶▶ mark baker, replying to Bob, 11, #105 of 751 🔗

I’ve waited a long time for the Lockdown zealots to actually produce some evidence lockdowns work and finally it’s here, I thought, as I read the headline of the Mail article. Then I read the article and I realised, no it’s not … Just more unsubstantiated assertions.

24003 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to mark baker, 4, #106 of 751 🔗

But the zealots believe it!

24018 ▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to mark baker, 20, #107 of 751 🔗

Evidence that lockdowns work should have been the first thing produced before the lockdown, and that evidence should have been irrefutable. Without that evidence, the lockdown was indefensible.

Sadly, it’s impossible, because there couldn’t be any evidence, because nobody’s ever done anything so stupid as a lockdown before.

23940 ▶▶ South Coast Worker, replying to Julian, 14, #108 of 751 🔗

Texas and Florida are the Sweden of the States. So much misrepresentation to fit a political grievance. Florida is a massive success story. They protected their sizeable elderly population admirably. Unlike New York. But you just have to look at the people running those respective places to see why each get treated differently. Cuomo should be in prison for chucking out the infected elderly into care homes. Yet he is touted as presidential material.

23971 ▶▶ Nic, replying to Julian, 6, #109 of 751 🔗

Didnt Imperial say there wud be 50k deaths in sweden by june if they didnt lock down they have 4 k at the moment ant that is s statistic that can be proved Mr ferguson

24094 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Nic, 3, #110 of 751 🔗

Which means they saved 46k lives with looser measures.

23974 ▶▶ Nic, replying to Julian, #111 of 751 🔗

It cud be infections are going up cos there testing more and even though infections are going up deaths are falling
Got to also point out that brazil have carried out 1 million tests and has half a million cases no it’s a crude way of estimating but that would mean half of Brazil’s population have had it brazil I think has a population of 200 millipn

23989 ▶▶ Jonathan Castro, replying to Julian, #112 of 751 🔗

They are wrong

24072 ▶▶ Invunche, replying to Julian, 8, #113 of 751 🔗

The reputation of Imperial College must be in absolute tatters you’d think? I mean surely by now everyone realises that Ferguson is at best inept, at worst a huckster?

But no! Their backslapping “research” still makes headline new at BBC.

Meanwhile not a peep about the asymptomatic news.

Wonder why 🙂

24575 ▶▶ FergusonDoesntUnderstandFacts, replying to Julian, #114 of 751 🔗

Just looked over their nature paper. So they claim they have worked backwards from reported deaths* to work out the dailt infections. The deaths follow the curves we are all so familiar with, a sharp rise, a while of peak, a slow decline, all good and smooth. And yet they then make a sharp discontinuity in the infections curve on lockdown-liberty-loss-day, which has NO basis in fact. If you are working back from the deaths you expect to see a similar curve to deaths, just higher and earlier. There are rules in mathematical models of physical systems about when a sharp discontinuity can be allowed, subtracting time from a deaths series and multiplying by an inverse IFR isn’t a place where you can introduce such a discontinuity. You CAN plausibly introduce discontinuities in the R value as a kind of differential of the infections curve, but in the UK the infections curve had already peaked and begun to decline before out liberties were crushed, and it would be at the moment of peak when discontinuities would be seen. And the paper, to credit them a little honesty, admits that they can’t detect which government policy, or what public actions without government intrusion, made the changes they think they have seen, Why does the media fail to mention this aspect? That nature paper doesn’t seem to have been reviewed yet, any sensible reviewer will not let it pass. The model is not the system, just like the map is not the territory.

*they mention the plausible risk of underreporting covid deaths but tno the other plausible risk of overreporting, they ought to have highlighted both if they were wishing to be objective

23912 Adam, replying to Adam, 1, #115 of 751 🔗

Toby Young (08/06/2020) “ Perhaps we shouldn’t be too outraged by this. After all, it means we don’t have to worry about a vaccine before we can dispense with social distancing measures. All we need do is proclaim our allegiance to a progressive cause and we’ll be immune from infection.”

ACE Speedway, North Carolina (06/06/2020) “This Event [ an evening of racing ] is held in PEACEFUL Protest of Injustice & Inequality Everywhere.”


24582 ▶▶ FergusonDoesntUnderstandFacts, replying to Adam, #116 of 751 🔗

Time to put up signs on every “non-essential”* business saying “we have re-opened, as per the old normal, in protest against injustice everywhere”.

*surely anu business which provides jobs to employees, profit to the founder or goods or services to customers is essential

23927 OKUK, replying to OKUK, 31, #117 of 751 🔗

Tonight Classic FM, LBC and other propaganda units will be pausing broadcasts at 9pm to honour a violent coked-up thug who once pointed a gun at a pregnant woman’s belly…

Might I suggest the minute would be better spent reflecting on how many lies have been told about the effectiveness of lockdowns and wondering how the hell we are going to climb out of the economic hole we have dug for ourselves?

23931 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to OKUK, 18, #118 of 751 🔗

Jesus wept.

More vitrtue signalling from a station I used to listen to. Still silence from them over my message to them pointing out the contradtiction and hypocrisy of their actions.

23935 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to OKUK, 14, #119 of 751 🔗

It’s making me feel physically nauseous now. Just shut up and open the dentists please.

23941 ▶▶ South Coast Worker, replying to OKUK, 5, #120 of 751 🔗

Take a Knee and be silent!

24067 ▶▶ Bella, replying to OKUK, 8, #121 of 751 🔗

Blimey, I can’t believe that. When is the hysteria from all sources going to stop? Did these stations pause their broadcasts when notable people in their own country died?

24187 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to OKUK, 2, #122 of 751 🔗

Good reason not to tune in to any of them.

23932 Gracie Knoll, replying to Gracie Knoll, 49, #123 of 751 🔗

Having been absent from this site for a while, and having posted a few comments today, I’ll have to take another long break.

I can’t stand it, you see. I mean, the utter prostitution of scientific integrity in the name of money and power. British science was once one of the glories of the world. Now it seems like a cheap tart opening her legs to the highest bidder.

Not that it’s only British science that’s been corrupted. This is a worldwide problem as some whistleblowers in the scientific community have repeatedly stated. There are many marvellous scientists but the ones corrupted by big business seem to have been given all the microphones.

I’m off to watch something spiritual on YouTube before I lose all hope in humanity.

23944 ▶▶ South Coast Worker, replying to Gracie Knoll, 8, #124 of 751 🔗

I know how you feel. It all feels very hopeless.

23963 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to South Coast Worker, 16, #125 of 751 🔗

Don’t give up. It will end. Heads will roll. We will win.

24106 ▶▶▶▶ Digital Nomad, replying to annie, 2, #126 of 751 🔗

I wish you were right but know you are wrong. The number of heads rolling over this was, is and will remain a big fat zero. And bread and circuses will be the norm yet once again once this passes.

24196 ▶▶▶ paulito, replying to South Coast Worker, 5, #127 of 751 🔗

Same here Gracie. I went to bed on Sunday feeling relatively calm. Woke up about half an hour later feeling like I was going to die. Heart racing, sweating, and trembling. All the signs of a nocturnal panic attack which has never happened to me before ever. Decided yesterday to cut back a bit on following this insanity as I’m becoming obsessed by it. Not giving up, just taking measures to preserve my sanity. Thank God for this site.

24069 ▶▶ Bella, replying to Gracie Knoll, 1, #128 of 751 🔗

Darkness before the dawn.

24088 ▶▶ steve, replying to Gracie Knoll, 2, #129 of 751 🔗

You want a laugh. Check out your blogs host Toby Young at the comedy club in London.

There is a ton of stuff on that channel
Comedy Unleashed YouTube.
Unfiltered very non Pc Don’t watch if you are a snowflake 😆

24308 ▶▶ ianp, replying to Gracie Knoll, 3, #130 of 751 🔗

The truth cannot be hidden. There are a huge number of people out there who don’t believe a single word of anything that’s coming out.

23939 Bart Simpson, replying to Bart Simpson, 25, #131 of 751 🔗

Excellent article by Chris Larkin. I may be a lapsed Catholic but I was amazed at the speed by which the church caved into this and denying people who want and need it, spiritual comfort. Its cowardice of the highest order.

What’s also appalling are those CoE bishops and priests virtue signalling over BLM yet like those cowards in Classic FM and the Tate, very quiet over the erosion of our civil rights and measures that will accelerate the demise of their churches.

23948 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Bart Simpson, 8, #132 of 751 🔗

Actually vile. Not that I had much respect for the church as an institution anyway (despite having much respect for my local priests and priestesses – they are sound) but…. I really expected more.

23953 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Farinances, 6, #133 of 751 🔗

Exactly. Given their dwindling congregations it would have been easy to practice antisocial distancing if needed be but I’m surprised how they caved in without so much of a protest.

That said I think it would have been harder with Catholic churches (as they have larger congregations given the immigrant population) but if there’s a will there’s a way.

24204 ▶▶▶▶ paulito, replying to Bart Simpson, 3, #134 of 751 🔗

Another very lapsed Catholic here. Churches are allowed to open for services in Spain at 30% of capacity. Most would struggle to reach 15% on a good day.

23952 ▶▶ annie, replying to Bart Simpson, 10, #135 of 751 🔗

Utterly nauseating. If your stomach will stand it, take a look at the front page of the Church Times


for a vomit-inducing splurge of nauseous anti-‘racist’ cant.
Not a word against violent mobs running amuck. Oh, no.

The Church of England is my mother and I cannot leave her, but by the Living God, ’tis pity she’s a whore.

23958 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to annie, 1, #136 of 751 🔗


24004 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Bart Simpson, 9, #137 of 751 🔗

Here is a better article from the church, to be more precise from Voice for Justice UK, entitled ‘The Poison of Bitterness’ (long article but good!)
It is surely time for the culture of victimhood and entitlement to end.  Over the last few days we have seen justifiable outrage over the killing of George Floyd – but nothing justifies the outpouring of hatred and cries for revenge that we have since witnessed in demonstrations across the globe.

Bad things happen.  They happen to all of us.  For example, down the centuries women have been sexually abused and oppressed by men.  Jews have been slaughtered in their millions, while an uncaring world looked the other way.  Millions of innocent babies have died because they were unwanted… Anglo-Saxon settlers were killed and enslaved by Viking marauders … white farmers across Africa have been driven from their homes and sometimes killed by black tribesmen.

Black people have been enslaved and treated shamefully.  Yes, but so, in various ways, have all these others.  So has every group on the planet, in fact, and there has to be a time to move on.   Unfashionable as it is to say this today, let us not forget that Great Britain was at the forefront in ending slavery.  As long ago as the 12 th century, the practice was outlawed in the British Isles under edict issued by the Council of London convened by Anselm: “Let no one dare hereafter to engage in the infamous business, prevalent in England, of selling men like animals.”  And though the international slave trade undeniably continued to flourish, let us remember that Britain, led by William Wilberforce, spearheaded the movement in the 19 th century for its worldwide abolition.   Were it not for his brave stand, many black protesters would remain in slavery today.

Yet instead of acknowledging this, there is an endless litany of recrimination and abuse – of hatred and violence.  It is surely time for those who feel they have been ‘oppressed’ to move on.

Every group and every individual has at some time faced injustice and oppression.   That indeed was one of the reasons Christ died, and, by His death on the Cross, He taught us the way of forgiveness – calling us to forgive and keep no account of past wrongs, as God forgives us.  So true forgiveness means that the offence disappears and is from that moment wiped out.  It does not of course mean that we forget – as anyone who has had to deal with being on the receiving end of ‘wrong’ can testify.  Nor does it mean that we should not address current and continuing wrongs – indeed we must remain vigilant in doing so.  But there is a higher and a better way than screaming endlessly for revenge, and for domination that glories in the humiliation and subjection of those who we think have done us wrong.  Forgiveness and letting go sets both sides free.

In this fallen world we all do wrong – and we all, inevitably, on occasion suffer wrong.   Neither experience entitles us to destroy.  A part of our humanity is facing challenge, and we grow by effort.  For this reason, for example, the disciples fishing all night on Lake Galilee did not have the fish jump into their boat at Christ’s command in the morning, but had once again to let down their nets for a catch (John 21:3-18).

Black lives matter.  Of course they do.  So do the lives of white men, and of women, children, the disabled, and the unborn. More peaceable demonstrators will of course say that they are protesting not about the past, but against inequalities and unfairness today – and there are undeniably massive problems in our black communities that do need urgent addressing.  Black Caribbean children, for example, are three times more likely to be excluded from primary, secondary, and special schools ( https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/school-racism-black-students-exclusions-hair-kiss-teeth-a9280296.html ), because they tend to be seen as disruptive and difficult to handle by teachers.  Perhaps unsurprisingly, then, there is lower educational achievement amongst the black community overall, which persists through to higher education ( https://www.universitiesuk.ac.uk/policy-and-analysis/reports/Documents/2019/bame-student-attainment-uk-universities-closing-the-gap.pdf&nbsp ; ).  But this in itself is part of a broader scenario, because inner-city areas, home to many black and ethnic minority groups, are notoriously bedevilled by gang violence, drugs, almost daily stabbings and shootings, and sexual exploitation and abuse.   These are all problems that need to be tackled, and a good place to start is without doubt by strengthening the family unit, so that all children grow up with a mother and a father – instead of, as so often happens at the moment, with a mother alone.  With a stable, strong family, where they are loved, children will flourish and a lot of the problems will surely disappear.   They will start to fulfil their potential.

But let there be an end to this evil spirit of victimhood and entitlement, and let’s work together to tackle the problems.  Whether it’s Me too , Black lives matter , or any other movement calling for redress – let this fostering of bitterness end.  Let us rather acknowledge every individual as made in the image of God – each one precious and of infinite worth.   Let us celebrate and acknowledge that we all have different gifts and strengths – that all alike need to be nurtured and developed.  And let us put the past behind us and rise to the challenge of being the best we can – now.  So that all may flourish.

24052 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Carrie, 4, #138 of 751 🔗

Indeed. I am a woman. I have encountered a lot of obnoxious sexist men in my time. I have also encountered way, way more wonderful, respectful and thoroughly unsexist men.

But who cares that I’ve lived my largely unmolested, I deserve reparations for the deplorable treatment of all the women who went before me and had nothing to do with me.

24053 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Carrie, 1, #139 of 751 🔗

Good one. They should be shouting this from the rooftops!

24208 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Carrie, 2, #140 of 751 🔗

A church man with a mind, a brain and a conscience?
Hard to believe, innit?

23942 Farinances, replying to Farinances, 11, #141 of 751 🔗

Thanks for the new links today Toby! There seem to be lots which is great, as I’m waiting for Peter Falconio muder thing to come on (what a strange tale that is) and was in need of something to stop me going on YouTube and abusing people in the Talk Radio comments sections. It’s such a good job I no longer have social media accounts. It really is.

Anyone else contemplating going to be doctors but being put off by the prospect of being muzzled? Really I should go, don’t wanna become one of those people whose cancer wasn’t detected “due to corononavirus”

23943 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Farinances, #142 of 751 🔗

My God I really need to get a bigger phone for these fat fingers

23949 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Farinances, 4, #143 of 751 🔗

Well, you should indeed go – masks are just for a few minutes, cancer could be for the rest of one’s life. The good guys need to survive!

[I went today: certainly irritating, but as I am on drugs which could (in the worst case) lead to liver failure, I put on a scarf, pointlessly of course.]

23962 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to IanE, 7, #144 of 751 🔗

Wear a mask with something really rude written on it!’

24054 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to annie, 2, #145 of 751 🔗

I have a balaclava with a skull on it.

Ima go scare me some children.

24144 ▶▶▶▶▶ Alec in France, replying to Farinances, #146 of 751 🔗

Plague Doctor masks are available (quite cheaply) on ebay

24151 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Alec in France, 2, #147 of 751 🔗

I ought one for a tenner from Amazon the other day. I don’t intend to use public transport until all of this nonsense has gone away, but if I have to, I’m wearing that.

24461 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Farinances, #148 of 751 🔗
24211 ▶▶▶ paulito, replying to IanE, 1, #149 of 751 🔗

Agree. As infuriating as muzzling is, not having treatment for real medical problems is only going to harm yourself. Although, for the true covid zombie, cutting off your nose to spite your face has the advantage of reducing the chances of getting infected.

24309 ▶▶ ianp, replying to Farinances, 3, #150 of 751 🔗

Hate to say it, but now is the time you need to have social media accounts. Horrible isn’t it? I have even taken to bloody Twitter and I bloody hate twitter.

Most heartening has been Youtube have to say… a growing army of angry folk sticking the boot into the BBC news, Sky news and the government every single day

23946 South Coast Worker, 10, #151 of 751 🔗

Open the gyms!

23950 Bart Simpson, replying to Bart Simpson, 22, #152 of 751 🔗

After a good weekend, today I must have lost the will to live.

Went to Sainsbury’s in Camden and its such a different experience from my local albeit small one – a few of the staff were so uptight, one of them even jumped back when I approached her to ask a question (she looked at me as if I was crawling with disease). There were also those patronising announcement every five seconds. The only positive aspect was that the supermarket was fairly dead and no-one was following the arrows on the floor.

Then it was back home via the underground and I could have committed hara-kiri with the announcements on social distancing and face coverings from 15 June. Makes you yearn for the old “see it, say it, sort it” ones.

Finally it was an announcement from my manager over proposed social distancing measures for our putative reopening soon which also reeked of a suicide announcement (at least in my view).

Will no one take us out of this Nightmare on Elm Street???

23961 ▶▶ annie, replying to Bart Simpson, 11, #153 of 751 🔗

I’ve decided to give up on supermarkets and shop local. Less choice, maybe, and a little more expensive, but it’s well worth it to be treated like a human being.
And have some fun making straight for people and seeing how many are prepared to step under a bus to avoid you. Actually, in my experience it’s a minority of, usually, young people (!). Exchange a smile and friendly word with all the others.

As they say in the store I no longer go to, ‘every little helps’.

23970 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to annie, 9, #154 of 751 🔗

Unfortunately the high street has long disappeared in my area hence there are no local shops and independent cafes. Not even charity or chicken shops believe it or not.

That said I am glad for the Morrisons and small Sainsbury’s that I have here, the staff are more relaxed and are only paying lip service. Ditto M&S.

23975 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to annie, 7, #155 of 751 🔗

I’m finding butchers and delis are more expensive (but, my word the quality is better). Good greengrocers are cheaper on balance – especially since you can buy the amount of potatoes and carrots you want, rather than a sack that you could only carry to your car in a trolley – and the quality is better.

The smaller shops are friendlier, they recognise you after you’ve been there a few times (though to be fair, I’ve been to the ones I’m using on and off for about 15 years). You still have to queue to get in, but yes, it’s nice not to be treated like an inconvenience once you’re through the door.

I say all this with hardly any frame of reference – I do virtually all of the food shopping for the house last time I went to a big supermarket was two weeks before lockdown, when I took my little one with me as we always used to do after his rugby on a Sunday. It was like shopping in Beirut and I’ve gone out of my way to avoid going back since.

24016 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to annie, 13, #156 of 751 🔗

I was in the park last week and a young girl, about 9 years old, was jumping on and off a tree stump in the grass. She paused to let me socially distance past her. I smiled and said thank you but normally the child would have been absorbed in her game and wouldn’t even have noticed me.

Another child (younger, riding on the pavement) actually crashed her bike into a hedge to let me past.

I asked if she’d done that to give me space and she said yes. I said she didn’t need to do that, as nobody can catch anything from someone just passing by outside. I asked if she’d hurt herself and thanked her for being considerate.

I suspect my shock of grey hair doesn’t help, I probably look ancient to a youngster. However, I think it’s very sad that the children have been drilled to respond so dramatically. It’s more sinister than merely being considerate.

24031 ▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Cheezilla, 12, #157 of 751 🔗

I’ve told my kids to pay no attention and that grown ups are just being silly and they’ll get over it soon. They seem to like this.

24467 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to matt, 1, #158 of 751 🔗

Empowering your kids and teaching them discernment. Good for you!

24023 ▶▶ matt, replying to Bart Simpson, 15, #159 of 751 🔗

My wife had a briefing today on her office reopening. Apparently, no stopping to talk with each other in person at any point. No use of meeting rooms. “Self cleaning” coatings on door handles and similar (huh?). All meetings to be done over Teams, not in person. Kitchen closed. Someone cleaning all the loos every 15 minutes.

What’s the point of going to an office?

24033 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to matt, 1, #160 of 751 🔗

Your wife’s office is giving me a feeling of foreboding. However there is still time before we reopen.

24108 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to matt, 7, #161 of 751 🔗

Give it a week, then see if all that hogwash still. applies.

24317 ▶▶▶ Bella, replying to matt, 3, #162 of 751 🔗

All those measures are ridiculous and serve no purpose except reinforcing the myth. Hasn’t anyone told them they can’t get gonorrhoea off a toilet seat?

24470 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to matt, 4, #163 of 751 🔗

I think there’s going to be an epidemic of asthma and eczema with all this disinfectant freely being sprayed and applied everywhere.

23954 MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 14, #164 of 751 🔗

‘the 3.5 million figure came as a shock to Boris, who is supposed to have said, “Christ!” when told the news. If the Prime Minister was surprised to discover that the lockdown is causing job losses – and will cause many, many more – he hasn’t been paying attention.’

If Boris Johnson didn’t know this, he really shouldn’t be in charge. Oh wait. . . . .

If he is in charge and really wants to abolish social distancing, couldn’t a handy SPAD easily find him some of the evidence available to anyone with a computer which shows that it’s not based on ‘the science’ and could be scrapped tomorrow? After all, his chief SPAD knows bloody well that it’s all bollox!

Meanwhile, is it possible that it will be pressure from business leaders who bring about some semblance of sanity? There also seems to be a change of mood in the press now – has the advertising money from HMG run out? I seem to remember the contract was for 3 months.

23956 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 11, #165 of 751 🔗

Apparently there is a legal challenge over social distancing from the hotel and restaurant sectors. It’s been estimated that around 3-4 million jobs could go if the hospitality sector collapses.

Not to mention that even if they’re shut they’re still paying rent and you can bet that’s all coming out of reserves which could be running out already.

23960 ▶▶▶ Sceptique, replying to Bart Simpson, 12, #166 of 751 🔗

That’s fantastic news. I get the feeling that this govt thinks it can get away with absolute bollocks because they are in charge for the next 5 years. Let’s hope the judges rule in favour of the people. PS I used to be a Tory voter.

23964 ▶▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Sceptique, 9, #167 of 751 🔗

Ditto. Both sons, both Tory voters (younger one only just missed voting age last year) said they will both vote for Keir Starmer. Well done Boris, two young people who were on-side have switched and they will not come back anytime soon.

23968 ▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 7, #168 of 751 🔗

There’s also the case that BA has filed so looks like the government will be kept busy with lawsuits from all and sundry.

Meanwhile it has also been reported that quarantine has been in shambles.

23982 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Bart Simpson, 8, #169 of 751 🔗

It shouldn’t require legal challenges with all that entails in terms of wasting time and money to bring them to their senses. There is absolutely no strategy, it is a random set of ideas that do not hang together. An ill-equipped, inexperienced Cabinet has been captured by ‘the science’, by which I mean a group of pseudo-scientists supported by some deeply sinister funders. If there is any merit in legal challenge it might force certain documents into the public domain – the SAGE minutes are incomplete and a sanitised version of the originals.

24000 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 3, #170 of 751 🔗

It will be interesting what comes out. The fact that the minutes are so sanitised means that they’re afraid of what could come out and that they will be lynched when the public realises that they’ve been had.

24001 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 14, #171 of 751 🔗

I’ve said this before, but the big court case, testing the legitimacy of the lockdown must happen. We can’t allow this precedent to stand – it’s far too dangerous.

24020 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Bart Simpson, 8, #172 of 751 🔗

Spotted this comment this morning int he Torygraph:

This new UK quarantine locator form introduction does not look fit for purpose. Here are just a few questions for the Home Secretary.
1.How does a non-English speaking person complete the contact locator quarantine form, which is in English and on-line only? Why is it not available in some other languages?
2.What options are there if the traveller has no access to the internet or a printer?
3.How does anyone complete this form when carrying an open date ticket which may be booked within a few hours of air, train or ferry travel? The form indicates that it must be completed 48 hours before travel.
4.Why is the whole form unavailable to print out? It should be available to be printed blank and then completed in ink with accurate data at the time of travel and handed in to border control on arrival?
5.What if the traveller is staying, say, for 3 to 5 days? How do they quarantine for 14 days?
6.It appears it is only available on-line. The traveller must find the webpage first which cannot be discovered using most search engines. Must then set up a password protected access to that UK Government website?What happens to all the confidential data collected by the UK government? How secure is it?
Maybe some of this could be explained on the daily Hancocks Half Hour TV show and provide travellers a few answers?

24032 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Cheezilla, 5, #173 of 751 🔗

Looks like its been set up so badly like T&T that it was doomed to failure from day one.

24201 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Sceptique, replying to Bart Simpson, 4, #174 of 751 🔗

I saw the reports too. Nobody knew about it, massive queues, people taking tube etc and ‘infecting’ people on the way home, etc etc. British public sector incompetence on display once again for the world to see. All because they can’t admit they’re wrong and want to appease the masses they terrified into lockdown in the first place.

24289 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Sceptique, 2, #175 of 751 🔗

This is fast becoming one farce after another. It will be interesting to see what also happens from 15 June.

24476 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Sceptique, 4, #176 of 751 🔗

This quarantine edict came from so far off-planet that I don’t think you can blame public sector incompetence.

I think the front benchers should be put on a 4-hour flight, then made to stand in a 2-hour queue with small kids from aforementioned journey.

24705 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Cheezilla, #177 of 751 🔗

Malevolent aliens from the Delta Quadrant ? I knew it !!!

23957 annie, replying to annie, 24, #178 of 751 🔗

I wanted to begin publishing The Tobiad, Being an Epic Poem in Several Cantos Treating of the Heroic Struggle of Lord Toby and the Knights Sceptic Against the Hordes of Evil, Darkness and Godless Tyranny, but my muse, a wayward creature, instead produced something that might have done a little credit to Patience Strong:

To a new arrival on this site

Welcome, my friend. We feel your pain.
You’ve found the refuge of the sane.
Here scepticism sets the rules,
And guides our strife with lockdown fools.
Reason and Passion, without vanity,
Set forth our case against insanity.
Here tireless TOBY seeks for truth,
Here POPPY makes the case for youth,
While BIKER dissects Loathsome Sturgeon
With the precision of a surgeon,
ANNIE reports from Gulag Wales,
And countless others tell their tales.
RDAWG indites to his MP
Letters of stunning quality,
And countless other people think
It’s good to post a useful link.
We’ve doctors who explain the virus,
With copious details that inspire us
To strive the harder to discover
What rot the NHS puts over.
Others post graphs which, loud and clear,
Reveal the lies that beat our ear,
And with all kinds of expertise
Your sad confusion we can ease.
We sing the praise of those we see
Trying, like humans, to be free,
And fiercely we all criticise
The zombies who affront our eyes.
With valiant hearts we will denounce
All liars and cowards, and we pounce
On every trick the BBC
Uses to foster misery.
If you are tempted to despair,
Lift up your heart. We’ve all been there,
But don’t give up. Just say again:
The rest are mad, but we are sane.
Remember this: we’re right, they’re wrong.
And there, dear friend, I’ll end my song.

I’ll have another crack at the epic tomorrow.

23959 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to annie, #179 of 751 🔗

Well done. Looking forward to the second installment

24091 ▶▶▶ RDawg, replying to Bart Simpson, 2, #180 of 751 🔗

Not the dreaded “second wave”?! 😉

24197 ▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to RDawg, #181 of 751 🔗


23980 ▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to annie, #182 of 751 🔗

Excellent work.

23981 ▶▶ RDawg, replying to annie, #183 of 751 🔗

Ha ha. Standing ovation 👏 👏 👏

24022 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to annie, #184 of 751 🔗

Annie that’s brilliant!

24281 ▶▶ Edna, replying to annie, #185 of 751 🔗

Love it! Looking forward to the epic 🙂

24349 ▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to annie, #186 of 751 🔗

Bravo 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 Take a bow!

23972 guy153, replying to guy153, 11, #187 of 751 🔗

An important point about R that much of the media doesn’t seem to have cottoned on to is that _it will be around 1.0 for ever_. That’s what happens when a virus is endemic. It remains at a constant low equilibrium level, with new hosts being provided on average at the rate at which people are being born.

I hope that the Independent, Guardian and BBC will continue to report on this number faithfully and hysterically as estimates of it fluctuate between just above 1.0 and just below it for the next thousand years at least. Ideally I would like to see regular updates until the extinction of the human race, although there is a somewhat concerning risk that from that point SARS-COV2 may continue to live on in the bat population.

23978 ▶▶ Poppy, replying to guy153, 7, #188 of 751 🔗

Exactly, but the media and the government have weaponised the R number, knowing full well that it is a complex scientific model that the most of the non-scientific members of the public have never heard of and do not understand, in order to obfuscate and give the impression that we are in imminent danger if the R so much as edges above 1. It’s interesting how they moved straight to the R as soon as the daily reported death toll started declining, the latter of which is an empirical figure rather than a model fed with conjecture and assumptions.

23992 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to Poppy, 6, #189 of 751 🔗

Right back at the beginning (doesn’t that seem like a long time ago? I remember epidemiologists chuckling in interviews and saying things like “it’s hard to believe we’re talking about things like R0 on prime time news! Well… let me explain…”

It’s now fairly clear that was the beginning of the fetishisation of an obscure and incalculable indicator.

23983 ▶▶ Nic, replying to guy153, 2, #190 of 751 🔗

Still dont understand how they calculate the R must be a lot of guess work involved as nobody knows how many people have been I fected in the uk

23996 ▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Nic, 4, #191 of 751 🔗

The ONS are doing relatively random testing. So you just compare the percentage of tests which were positive last week to the percentage which are this week to get an estimate.

But they are also apparently doing some opaque “modelling” and coming up with ridiculously precise estimates like “1.01 in the North West”. This sort of thing risks breaking my bogosity detector as the needle slams so hard against the upper stop.

24057 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to guy153, 2, #192 of 751 🔗

Does that mean that once no-one gets tested, the R number goes down to 0?

;o) No, because as guy says, the virus becomes endemic. Therefore the R number is modelled bollocks.

24664 ▶▶ djaustin, replying to guy153, 1, #193 of 751 🔗

R is basically the slope of the curve times a duration for infection. The endemic R = 1 is the final state, but classic epidemiology would have us reach that value by a slow and steady replacement of new people to infect. We’re probably not even on cycle through that process. The only bit that matters is whether the epidemic is growing, shrinking or staying constant. And how confident one is about that. The absolute number is not that important. The modellers built it up and are now stuck with it. Doubling time and halving time is much more intuitive.

Cases and deaths are currently halving every 10-14 days. They were growing every three. In Sweden they are roughly constant.

23973 Montag Smith, replying to Montag Smith, 18, #194 of 751 🔗

‘According to Tim Shipman and Arthi Nachiappan in yesterday’s Sunday Times, the 3.5 million figure came as a shock to Boris, who is supposed to have said, “Christ!” when told the news. If the Prime Minister was surprised to discover that the lockdown is causing job losses – and will cause many, many more – he hasn’t been paying attention.’

“Christ” would be my mild response to knowing that our PM is clueless about the impact of lockdown if he’s surprised at the possibility of millions of job losses.

24125 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to Montag Smith, 12, #195 of 751 🔗

Exactly. It terrifies me that he appears to have absolutely no idea of the economic armageddon he has unleashed. And for that reason alone he should go.

24287 ▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to kh1485, 2, #196 of 751 🔗

Me too. It would take an honourable PM to take ownership of this.

24227 ▶▶ paulito, replying to Montag Smith, 5, #197 of 751 🔗

So, It’s finally sunk in to Johnson that his genius policy of mass imprisonment, and economic shutdown is causing job losses on a catastrophic scale. Obviously, the only way out of the mess is to introduce “safety” measures which will make it impossible for businesses to function. What an absolute cretin!

23976 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 21, #198 of 751 🔗


Spain’s govt now says the difference between COVID (27K) and total excess fatalities (43K) are lockdown related (16K). “One could be those people with chronic illnesses who were too scared or waited too long to go to the hospital” – Fernando Simón

More and more countries admit this now.

24079 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to swedenborg, 6, #199 of 751 🔗

Haven’t we been saying this for weeks now? The comments on this site should be recorded in the annals of history.

24109 ▶▶ annie, replying to swedenborg, 7, #200 of 751 🔗

Meaning that more and more governments and health services are confessing to manslaughter?

24288 ▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to annie, #201 of 751 🔗

The lawyers are going to be busy with malpractice suits.

24242 ▶▶ paulito, replying to swedenborg, 4, #202 of 751 🔗

He’s also on record as saying that non covid excess deaths were due to an enormous traffic accident, when they were at a “mere” 5,000. Court case starts tomorrow centred round the government’s decision to allow a demonstration to mark International Women’s day on the 8th of March, a demo where attendance was estimated at 350,000. It’s very frustrating that criticism of government policy in Spain is based on the belief that coronaflu really is as dangerous as the gov says it is, that the real number of Covid deaths is much higher, and that imprisoning the whole country was done too late. The 8th of March demo is believed by many to have been responsible, in large part, for the high death toll. Simon says that the effects of the demo were “marginal”. The question is, if a march of 350,000 people was not a problem, which is probably correct, why did they decide 6 days later to place the whole country under house arrest with some of the harshest restrictions in the world. The government cannot have it both ways and their critics are spectacularly missing the point. Hopefully, this case will bring some of the truth to light and redirect the investigation into the government’s actions. Finally, it was reorted that on Sunday, Police broke up a party in Toledo attended by 29 teenagers who are facing fines. Earlier that day, 3,000 BLM supporters marched in Madrid. Police took no action.

24588 ▶▶ FergusonDoesntUnderstandFacts, replying to swedenborg, #203 of 751 🔗

The fact is that most of the people who were killed by covid-19 would have died of it whatever was done, some were in a weakened state already, some were perfectly healthy with just an underlying condition of a kind which would not normally impact their life. Lockdown did not save those who died of covid-19. It seems a fairly plausible statement that if we hadn’t locked down covid-19 might have spread more widely, or at least more quickly, but most of the people vulnerable to severe effects from it have been infected in our actual history, in any counterfactual we may suppose the number of people who would have got serious effects from covid-19 but didn’t in our history is pretty low indeed. So lockdown has not saved lives. The difference between excess deaths and confirmed covid deaths, and there is a good chance they are overcounting covid deaths by accident but no chance they are undercounting covid deaths, are casualties of lockdown who would have lived if we had not locked down. They outnumber the people who would have been vulnerable to a severe covid case but did not get one.

23988 Tenchy, replying to Tenchy, 11, #204 of 751 🔗

More probable bullshit from Imperial College:

Lockdowns had a dramatic impact on the spread of coronavirus in Europe with strict controls on people’s movements preventing an estimated 3.1m deaths by the beginning of May, with 470,000 deaths averted in the UK alone, researchers say.

Outbreak modellers at Imperial College London said that lockdown slashed the average number of people that contagious individuals infected by 81% and lowered the reproduction number, R, of the epidemic below 1 in all countries they observed.

When R is less than 1 the epidemic is in decline because on average, each infected person transmits the infection to less than one other. As countries ease out of their lockdown, scientists are watching R closely: if it rises and remains above 1, the epidemic will grow exponentially.

The Imperial team pooled data on Covid-19 deaths from 11 European countries including the UK, Italy, France, Spain and Germany, and worked backwards to calculate the extent of transmission several weeks earlier, to account for the time lag between infections and deaths. Lockdown at the end of March reduced the reproductive number of the UK epidemic from 3.8 to 0.63, they calculate.

The model shows that by 4 May between 12 million and 15 million people had become infected, but some nations were hit far harder than others. According to the model Belgium had the largest number of cases per capita with 8% of the population infected, compared with only 0.46% of Norwegians and 0.85% of Germans. Some 5.1% of the UK population was infected, according to a report published in Nature .

“Our model estimates that we are very far away from herd immunity,” said Axel Gandy, a professor of statistics at Imperial and co-author on the study. Herd immunity is achieved when enough people are immune to a virus that outbreaks die out naturally. In the case of Covid-19, scientists believe upwards of 70% of the population would need to be resistant for herd immunity to kick in.

“It tells us we need to be very careful and not to release too much in one go because then you have no control,” Prof Gandy said. “We need to tread very carefully and do things slowly, so we can backtrack should they not work.”

Note especially the 470,000 deaths that ‘lockdown’ has prevented.

23991 ▶▶ John P, replying to Tenchy, 4, #205 of 751 🔗

Bet they can’t prove that.

23997 ▶▶ mark baker, replying to Tenchy, 4, #206 of 751 🔗

Did the 11 countries include Sweden!?

24005 ▶▶ annie, replying to Tenchy, 5, #207 of 751 🔗

Note ‘then you have no control’.
That’s the word.

24006 ▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Tenchy, 4, #208 of 751 🔗

He is even less of a scientist than Ferguson. He is a mathematician who plugs any dataset he is given into a multivariate statistical model. Unfortunately that can lead to quite erroneous outcomes if the dataset is not what it proports to be. Have they learned nothing from all their previous mistakes!

24478 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Tyneside Tigress, #209 of 751 🔗

I suspect they are being paid not to.

24007 ▶▶ matt, replying to Tenchy, 10, #210 of 751 🔗

If the R0 was at 3.8 until lockdown was imposed, why were infections falling in London several days before lockdown was imposed?

You can see that they were, because deaths peaked and then dropped steadily less than 4 weeks after lockdown was imposed.

The only two possible answers are either that lockdown was not the primary driver, or that the R0 is meaningless.

This is a load of crap. Imperial can see that they’re in for a substantial slice of the blame and they’re trying to defend themselves.

24043 ▶▶▶ guy153, replying to matt, #211 of 751 🔗

R0 is not meaningless. But it’s not 3.8 either. It’s more like 1.25 to 1.5.

24045 ▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to guy153, 3, #212 of 751 🔗

Sorry, I’m being flippant today. To be clear and more balanced, what I really mean is that any official and semi-official guesstimate of the R0 to date has been meaningless.

24009 ▶▶ Nic, replying to Tenchy, 2, #213 of 751 🔗

Didnt ferguson predict 500000 at the start then kept changing it?

24070 ▶▶▶ Lockdown Truth, replying to Nic, #214 of 751 🔗

Ferguson predicted 520,000. 470,000 plus the 40,000 actual deaths = 510,000 so they were right all along! I’m ashamed I doubted them…

24013 ▶▶ mjr, replying to Tenchy, 8, #215 of 751 🔗

and of course , BBC, the doom-mongers in chief, feature this on their website under heading Coronavirus: Lockdowns in Europe saved millions of lives . No questioning…. no journalism, just repeating the press release…

24278 ▶▶▶ paulito, replying to mjr, #216 of 751 🔗

One headline I saw said the report “revealed”, not claimed or suggested, the saving of millions of lives.

24313 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to mjr, 2, #217 of 751 🔗

defund them. If you have a direct debit, cancel it. Imagine if millions of us did that….?

24481 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to ianp, 1, #218 of 751 🔗

That is positive action that can be taken, even while locked up.
I refused to renew my tv licence last week.

24017 ▶▶ OKUK, replying to Tenchy, 3, #219 of 751 🔗

Almost certainly so! 3 million saved…in what circumstances? Circumstances where nations did literally nothing in response to the virus? Yep that;s probably their “validated comparator”.

Sweden has done lots of things to address the spread of the virus and protect the most vulnerable – it just didn’t opt for a general total lockdown that they knew would destroy their economy and compromise other medical services. Its death per million figure is lower than ours, so this must be BS, with lots of tweaked assumptions built in to give the right answer.

24026 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Tenchy, 6, #220 of 751 🔗

They are shameless!

24059 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Tenchy, 5, #221 of 751 🔗

Let me guess….. absolutely no estimate of how many deaths lockdowns CAUSED?

Tells you all you need to know.

Pretty sure if they factor in all the starving people in the third world over the next couple of years we’ll get into the millions. Dead BECAUSE of lockdown, regardless of how many covid deaths it ‘saved’. (I don’t think it saved any, but even if it had those saved would be wiped out many times over by those killed/ruined by lockdown).

24081 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Tenchy, 7, #222 of 751 🔗

This was my comment in the DM:

“Weather forecasters predicting rain saved millions from getting wet. Then it didn’t rain…”

Regarding the saving lives. I always go back to Sweden on this one. If lockdowns saved lives based on modelling then Sweden must also have saved lives based on similar modelling.

24092 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Nobody2020, 1, #223 of 751 🔗

Hold on, I’ve just read the article on BBC News site:

“Their equations made several assumptions, which will affect the figures.
They assume nobody would have changed their behaviour in response to the Covid threat without a lockdown – and that hospitals would not be overwhelmed resulting in a surge in deaths, which nearly happened in some countries.”

So it’s just Fergusons original do nothing model minus the deaths we’ve already had.

24684 ▶▶▶ djaustin, replying to Nobody2020, #224 of 751 🔗

Or reverse the logic and scale the difference in deaths between Sweden and Norway, Finland and Denmark. Thus if every country had done the same as the latter three and not the former, you can estimate the excess deaths one might have prevented.

Sweden 467/M
Denmark, Norway, Finland 44-100/M

Difference is about 400/M for a population of EU (513M) means an extra 200,000 would have been saved.

If U.K. (602/M) had been more NFD we could have saved 33,000 as a conservative estimate.

24098 ▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to Tenchy, 4, #225 of 751 🔗

I’ve prevented myself from murdering 1,000,000+ people, maybe i deserve a commendation because it could easily have been different if i hadn’t used tried and true prevention methods like not killing people. This is just an estimation based on figures and projected numbers. Let’s hope it continues to work.

23994 mark baker, replying to mark baker, 30, #226 of 751 🔗

I can’t get over the WHO report that asymptomatic infections are “very rare” and that governments show focus on people with symptoms. Out of the many extraordinary things that have been said over the past few months, this has to be number 1!! Wasn’t THE WHOLE POINT of lockdown that, unlike normal infectious diseases, COVID transmitted through those without symptoms, so you have to quarantine everyone cos anyone might pass it on!? If governments only have to worry about people with symptoms, that’s fucking easy!!!!! Quarantine the sick. End of. Problem solved. No lockdown, no social distancing, nothing!! Aaaaaarrrrrrggggghhhhh!!

24011 ▶▶ annie, replying to mark baker, 19, #227 of 751 🔗

I’ve had chronic asymptomatic bubonic plague, sweating sickness, ingrowing toenails and epizootic sniggers since birth, but the world appears to have survived me.

BTW, somebody just published a new list of high-risk groups for the Covibug:

. bald men
. women whose breasts are not quite symmetrical
. left-handers
. coffee drinkers
. tea drinkers
. drinkers
. parents with children whose names begin with a letter of the alphabet between t and z
. gerbil owners
. people who have visited the Turk and Cacos Islands, but only since 2010 and when there was an r in the month
. members of the Gryffindor gobstones club
. people who have read War and Peace without skipping a single page
. people who like people
. people who have noticed dogs trying to sniff their armpits
. everybody else.

If you fall into one of the above groups, p BEWARE

24077 ▶▶▶ Sarigan, replying to annie, 4, #228 of 751 🔗

Dammit, I was all clear until Turks and Caicos.

14 days quarantine for me.

24189 ▶▶▶ Locked down and out, replying to annie, 1, #229 of 751 🔗

Turks & Caicos has not had a CV-19 case for some weeks, yet it’s still not possible to travel inter-island by air or sea between, say, Provo and Grand Turk or Provo and South Caicos. So many people are stranded on islands which are not their natural home. All very odd.

24314 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to annie, 2, #230 of 751 🔗

Coffee drinker extraordinaire … I’m DOOMED!!

24019 ▶▶ Laura, replying to mark baker, 12, #231 of 751 🔗

Exactly. Screaming into the void still! What the F$&K are people thinking!! Wash your hands, stay home if sick, protect our care homes. That’s it!!

24027 ▶▶ OKUK, replying to mark baker, 5, #232 of 751 🔗

They were estimating an asymptomatic rate of 25% a couple of months ago…WHO seems as clueless as everyone else.

24482 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to OKUK, #233 of 751 🔗

Seems? Then there will be an ulterior motive.

23999 Nic, replying to Nic, 10, #234 of 751 🔗

Just got to ask people on this site how is all this going to progress will we have constant hysteria for the foreseeable future will the virus just fade away or will we live with it and have a low number of deaths every day.
Also for how long are we going to have to put up with all these restrictions which we all know is making life impossible.
I mean we are still are not allowed to stay at another household for the night not that iv taken any notice!
But what about all those B and Bs which are shut wen will they open again?
So many questions so many problems its endlesss

24010 ▶▶ matt, replying to Nic, 10, #235 of 751 🔗

In my happy moments, it looks like this: everyone suddenly realises that it’s all been a farce from the beginning and then the government realises that nobody is scared anymore and it’s ok to open everything again, and we can all go to the pub next Wednesday and not worry about getting too close to anyone.

In my less happy moments, this goes on and on forever and we’ll all be socially distancing in caves by February 2022

24391 ▶▶▶ Bella, replying to matt, 2, #236 of 751 🔗

I can feel in my water that the tide is turning. Engineers came to service our lift today. I had to sign their report, digitally, on their phone. One held the phone while I signed it. No-one cared about touching and we weren’t even one metre apart. So we’re not going to be antisocial distancing in 2022 Matt, can’t be policed and no-one’s going to take any notice. Where I live – on the coast – it’s pretty much ignored (apart from the odd zealot who still fears the black death.)

24025 ▶▶ OKUK, replying to Nic, 2, #239 of 751 🔗

It seems so far on a par with a very bad flu pandemic but nothing like the Spanish flu of 1918/19 which struck down the young and fit. I think by the end of the year the “excess deaths” figure will be quite small. So my bet would be that by the end of the year this may all be going down the memory hole.

Truth is, no one really knows. The thing seems to mutate like crazy. But if we were to further destroy our economy and wilfully reduce our GDP, deliberately pauperise the population…well that would be fantastical, insane. Boris has proved a huge disappointment but surely even he would be woken from his torpor and begin to lead. I can’t see us returning to general total lockdown, so that must mean we are going to start living with this.

24048 ▶▶▶ DRW, replying to OKUK, 1, #240 of 751 🔗

I’m so very worried about having state-enforced muzzles and anti-social distancing forever now… surely they can’t always keep spinning this stupid project fear, especially when the doomers’ beloved ‘second wave’ never happens?

24394 ▶▶▶ Bella, replying to OKUK, 1, #241 of 751 🔗

Johnson couldn’t lead a dog on a leash

24692 ▶▶▶ djaustin, replying to OKUK, #242 of 751 🔗

It doesn’t really mutate much at all actually. But coronaviruses are not great for imparting lifelong immunity (unlike measles).

70-100k excess deaths by the end of the year. I don’t see why the remaining 85+ will live longer than they would otherwise.

24689 ▶▶ djaustin, replying to Nic, #243 of 751 🔗

We all relax, head back out and behave as we did in February and 200,000 over 65’s die.

We all remain a little cautious, limit our contacts but try and resume normal life, and we end up with about 10-30 deaths per day until treatment/vaccines help clear it up.

Or something in between.

24701 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to djaustin, #244 of 751 🔗

… and 200,000 over 65’s die.

You are Professor Neil Ferguson and I claim my £10.

24868 ▶▶▶▶ James, replying to JohnB, #245 of 751 🔗

No, he supports at least trying to resume near normal life, and he has the stomach to accept some levels of deaths. He can’t be Prof Ferguson, he may not be as sceptical as some but he’s more sensible than that so-called scientist can ever be.

24028 Tenchy, replying to Tenchy, 5, #246 of 751 🔗

How is R0 calculated? Does anyone know? Is it a state secret? They had a talking head professor on the Andrew Marr Show yesterday and, maybe I misheard this, but I think he said that PHE include a mobility factor in their modelling. In other words, if road traffic volumes are increasing, or if Google tell them that people are moving around more, this will affect (i.e. increase) the R number in their model. If this is right it is truly astounding and outrageous. Did anyone else see this interview? As I say, maybe I got the wrong end of the stick, but this is what it sounded like.

24034 ▶▶ matt, replying to Tenchy, 18, #247 of 751 🔗

I think the process goes like this:

Chris Whitty opens the window, licks his finger and then sticks his hand out the window. Then Whitty stands back (at least 2M) and Patrick Vallance also licks his finger and sticks his hand out of the window. They then sit down at a (2M wide) conference table, wearing masks and doodle on a pad for 5 minutes or so before writing down the first number that comes into their heads, providing its as close to 1 as possible.

24280 ▶▶▶ paulito, replying to matt, 1, #248 of 751 🔗

Exactly Matt. That’s the science.

24038 ▶▶ OKUK, replying to Tenchy, 3, #249 of 751 🔗

I’ve certainly heard that there are many different models for calculating the R rate. What a surprise! One crucial issue that rarely gets attention is that a large proportion of the population are able to see off the infection with their first line defences ie they are exposed to the virus but don’t develop the antibodies. But how do you ascertain that proportion? If it’s 60% of the population it’s going to have a huge effect on your policy making. If it’s 1%, not so much…

24699 ▶▶▶ djaustin, replying to OKUK, #250 of 751 🔗

There is no evidence that people exposed to the virus do not form antibodies. They may have some cross reactive protection from immune cells, but they do go on to seroconvert.

24110 ▶▶ annie, replying to Tenchy, 2, #251 of 751 🔗

I think they nean that quite a few people in this country are still alive.

24029 Stephen McMurray, replying to Stephen McMurray, 19, #252 of 751 🔗

The WHO’s statement saying asymptomatic people can’t pass on the virus is a game changer. They even say we should be concentrating now isolating infected people suggesting they no longer think lockdown is the way forward. As we can’t rely on the mainstream media to run with this we have to make them. Everyone on this site should contact all major newspapers and media outlets over the next 24 hours and tell them this announcement and get them to press for an end to lockdown but it needs as many people as possible to do it. I would also suggest contacting local newspapers who may be slightly independent and more concerned with businesses in their area who may advertise via their newspapers. Local radio stations may be a good idea as well.

We should also contact the Federation of Small Businesses, the hospitality sector and even churches to let them know there is now need for social distancing or lockdown and get them to start campaigning for an end to the lunacy. You could try your local MP but in my experience they don’t give a damn.

This could be the smoking gun.

24037 ▶▶ Anthony, replying to Stephen McMurray, 2, #253 of 751 🔗

Where can I find this statement?

24101 ▶▶▶ David S, replying to Anthony, #254 of 751 🔗
24040 ▶▶ matt, replying to Stephen McMurray, 7, #255 of 751 🔗

It’s quite something. I haven’t yet worked out how you can continue to justify any of the “social distancing” measures at all for even one more day, if this is the case.

I suppose I’ll just have to wait to watch BBC Breakfast tomorrow to find out just how much the garbage from Imperial is being excitedly promoted and just how little anyone remembers the WHO exists for a few days.

Also, remember, as it’s the WHO, they will have changed their minds by Wednesday lunchtime. By Thursday, anyone who does not have symptoms will be dangerously infective _whether they have the virus themselves or not_

24042 ▶▶ Tenchy, replying to Stephen McMurray, 2, #256 of 751 🔗

I did see this earlier, but now I can’t find it in The Guardian, The Telegraph or on the BBC website (maybe I need to look harder). I found something on CNBC. Here are a couple of quotes:

Coronavirus patients without symptoms aren’t driving the spread of the virus, World Health Organization officials said [on] Monday, casting doubt on concerns by some researchers that the disease could be difficult to contain due to asymptomatic infections. “

““From the data we have, it still seems to be rare that an asymptomatic person actually transmits onward to a secondary individual,” Dr. Maria Van Kerkhove, head of WHO’s emerging diseases and zoonosis unit, said at a news briefing from the United Nations agency’s Geneva headquarters. “It’s very rare.”

So we have “rare” and “very rare”, but that’s not “never ever never”, and because it’s not, and because the ‘lockdown’ narrative has been set in stone, I suspect this will make no difference. I wonder how Lt Gruber would respond if asked; “since this is the science, and you are following the science, is the ‘lockdown’ ending tomorrow?”

24044 ▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Tenchy, 1, #257 of 751 🔗

Is this the CNBC report – it has a link to video conference hosted by Dr Kerkhove:


24047 ▶▶▶▶ Tenchy, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 1, #258 of 751 🔗

Yes, that’s the one.

24035 OKUK, replying to OKUK, 14, #259 of 751 🔗

Message to Toby…

Since you’re a man of boundless energy and since we are now being subject to constant lying from the mainstream media, BBC and the rest, about lockdowns, racism, BLM protests, Brexit and all the rest while free speech is being slowly, no speedily, strangled and our culture is under sustained attack would you consider this:

Once this site becomes a historical footnote would you please put your mind to setting up a free radio station (to go with your Free Schools)…we need a radio station that doesn’t promote fake science, that allows a range of opinion, and that doesn’t peddle the wrongheaded PC globalist ideology.

I think you’re the man to do it. You could crowd-fund it and start it on the internet. Maybe get Rod Liddle, Brendan O’Neill, Trevor Phillips, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Melanie Phillips on board as well. Make it a wonderful mix of good music, interesting conversation, informative talks, objective news, fine drama and literature and – of course – free speech.

I am sure you could crowd-fund a million to get this going. People are so heartily sick of the propaganda on the BBC, Sky, ITV and now even Classic FM. We need an alternative!

24064 ▶▶ John P, replying to OKUK, 3, #260 of 751 🔗

Melanie Phillips? You mean the Melanie Phillips that wrote this in May:

“Ignore these siren calls to end the lockdown. The ‘economy-first’ lobby are twisting the facts and trying to bounce the PM into a huge gamble.”

24089 ▶▶▶ OKUK, replying to John P, #261 of 751 🔗

Well I did say a range of opinion. I don’t agree with everything she stands for. But she has confronted the PC lobby many times and has lost friends because she hasn’t played the PC game.

Anyway, that’s not up to me. I was just suggesting that if Toby decided to go forward with such a project, there would be others who might be prepared to join in – experienced broacasters. Rod Liddle has also been suspect on the lockdown thing, seemingly backing it to the hilt by the way.

24099 ▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to OKUK, #262 of 751 🔗

Yes, I thought you might say something like that – and I see where you’re coming from. But let’s play devil’s advocate.

How about having someone with what you describe as “wrongheaded PC globalist ideology” presenting?

You know, have “a range of opinion”. Would that still suit you?

24102 ▶▶▶▶▶ OKUK, replying to John P, #263 of 751 🔗

Of course it would.

I would be happy to have anyone who accepts the rules of the democratic game presenting.

The problem is that most of the BBC, Sky, ITV, Guardian, Times, Mail, Labour Party, Lib Dems and a large section of the Conservative Party don’t any longer subscribe to democratic norms (as we’ve seen in their reaction to the violent BLM riots). They don’t believe in free speech, free association, elimination of electoral malpractice, or equal citizenship. They believe in controlled speech, preventing meetings they disapprove of taking place, allowing electoral malpractice to continue and in differential rights for citizens.

Of course “presenting” is different from “taking part”. Presenters to some extent represent your station’s values. I wouldn’t mind full on Marxists taking part as long as they aren’t directly advocating violence. But I wouldn’t want them presenting since they implicitly reject democracy.

24111 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to OKUK, 1, #264 of 751 🔗

In a word, they don’t believe in human rights. Remember when we had human rights, set in stone and bolstered by legislation aand convention at every level both international. and national?

24515 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to OKUK, #265 of 751 🔗

“I wouldn’t want them presenting”

This is highlighting one of the fundamental difficulties with free speech.

Who gets to decide who has a platform?

24203 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to John P, 1, #266 of 751 🔗

I’d like to see somebody bouncing Mad Boris’s seventeen stone.

24398 ▶▶▶ Bella, replying to John P, #267 of 751 🔗

And not Rod bloody Liddle

24143 ▶▶ John Smith, replying to OKUK, #268 of 751 🔗

That’s a terrible idea.


24333 ▶▶▶ OKUK, replying to John Smith, #269 of 751 🔗

That’s a terrible comment because it has a terrible absence of reasoning.

24282 ▶▶ paulito, replying to OKUK, #270 of 751 🔗

If the defund the BBC campaign succeeds, they may well be selling a lot of their equipment off cheap.

24299 ▶▶ Jen, replying to OKUK, #271 of 751 🔗

It’s called Podcasts. The future isn’t radio or anything covered by OfCom, who’ll chase you like a dog with a stick. Podcasting is such a low-cost and highly informative medium, it’s been such an amazing resource. People like James Dellingpole and The New Culture Forum, The Tax Justice Network etc etc are putting out wonderful stuff with patreons which is a better model than upfront subscription costs (at least initially when the audience is building).

24036 Tyneside Tigress, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 6, #272 of 751 🔗

Just had a look at the newly published Ferguson et al article in Nature. Interesting comment underneath questioning aspects of the dataset:


Even assuming this model works, and has been validated, it seems to be more ‘garbage in garbage out’.

Can be safely ignored!

24046 ▶▶ John P, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 7, #273 of 751 🔗

It no more “works” or can be “validated” than any other model. My lego town “works” and is “validated” too. That doesn’t mean it has any genuine claim to reality.

Please PLEASE those without science degrees STOP giving any creedence to this dishonest pseudo intellectual garbage. Imperial is engaging in damage limitation!

24049 ▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to John P, 2, #274 of 751 🔗

Not sure if you are directing the last para at me – I have a science degree! I agree though, ICL is doubling down, because the funding demands it.

24051 ▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to Tyneside Tigress, #275 of 751 🔗

“Not sure if you are directing the last para at me”

Did I say so?

24103 ▶▶ BobT, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 4, #276 of 751 🔗

Predictive models are not science, they are crystal ball gazing. They do not follow the scientific method which requires experimentation and verification while at the same time allowing others (peers) to challenge the findings so I agree that this paper and its predictions can be safely ignored. The trouble is that it will not be ignored and will be used as ass covering for the politicians along with the people advising them who claim to be scientists.

The other thing I notice is that there are a lot of names quoted as authors of the document. Similar to SAGE, which has 50 members, groupthink (likely led by one dominating character) is the likely reason for many of their daft decisions. It reminds me of the old adage that ‘a camel is a horse but designed by a committee’.

All but three of the authors are part of Imperial College. There is just one from Oxford University, a statistician. I note that there is no representation for the Centre for Evidence Based Medicine at Oxford who have been exemplary in my view for just publishing material which is based, not conjecture, but the effin evidence and facts!

24107 ▶▶▶ Hugh_Manity, replying to BobT, 3, #277 of 751 🔗

“Predictive models are not science, they are crystal ball gazing. They do not follow the scientific method which requires experimentation and verification while at the same time allowing others (peers) to challenge the findings…”
This is undoubtedly correct: it must therefore be equally applicable to climate change models. These too have been consistently and hopelessly wrong- and there have been thousands of them. So what does that tell you about the quality of science today and how politisised it has become. R.I.P. the scientific method.

24136 ▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to BobT, 1, #278 of 751 🔗

Sadly, predictive models are science because science does not require experimentation and verification in of itself. The Scientific Method is a philosophical method where as long as your assumptions and concept, methodology (which can be though experiment for example) and conclusions are consistent your argument may be valid.

It’s when you apply these things to the real world or even just start extrapolating beyond the scope of your exercise is where the problem starts.

So experimenation and verification comes into play when your argument makes a claim about a measurable quantity. Then it becomes testable and more importantly falsifiable.

Most of these models are between supposition and hypothesis (it can be falsified). It also means that any derived modelling or behaviour, such as epidemiology models or climate models, require the source data to be of sufficient precision to meet the assumptions you are making.

And as we have seen from how Covid-19 is “tested” and attributed, that isn’t happening.

24153 ▶▶ swedenborg, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 1, #279 of 751 🔗

Flaxman, S., Mishra, S., Gandy, A. et al. Estimating the effects of non-pharmaceutical interventions on COVID-19 in Europe. Nature (2020). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586-020-2405-7
Download citation
·       Received30 March 2020
·       Accepted22 May 2020
·       Published08 June 2020

Then there is another publication on the same date in Nature
The effect of large-scale anti-contagion policies on the COVID-19 pandemic
That article is from a US group and the first from the Ferguson group The second article also quotes the 38% exponential growth. The two articles must have been co-ordinated.Look at the first submission. The ICL article 30th Mach and the second article 22 March

24181 ▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to swedenborg, #280 of 751 🔗

When I saw the ICL paper I was struck by the date of submission (30 March), as that is the same date as the ICL Lancet paper was published on-line (Estimates of the severity of coronavirus disease 2019: a model-based analysis https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30243-7/fulltext ).
With regard to the two Nature papers, are they part of a Special Issue collection?

24058 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 10, #281 of 751 🔗

“A paper published in The New England Journal of Medicine about the first four people in Germany infected with a novel coronavirus made many headlines because it seemed to confirm what public health experts feared: that someone who has no symptoms from infection with the virus, named 2019-nCoV, can still transmit it to others. That might make controlling the virus much harder.”

This gave impetus to the fear that asymptomatic infection could occur hence the importance of facemasks and social distancing.
However this article had a flaw, they never spoke with the index patient(A Chinese woman visiting Germany) directly.
“They told us that the patient from China did not appear to have any symptoms.” Afterward, however, RKI and the Health and Food Safety Authority of the state of Bavaria did talk to the Shanghai patient on the phone, and it turned out she did have symptoms while in Germany. According to people familiar with the call, she felt tired, suffered from muscle pain, and took paracetamol, a fever-lowering medication. (An RKI spokesperson would only confirm to Science that the woman had symptoms.)”


But Science is an MSM ally so they dutiful says the following:
“This story has been cited widely on social media to argue against the use of face masks and shelter-in-place policies. This is based on a misreading of the article. The fact that the NEJM paper had a flaw does not mean asymptomatic transmission (by people who have absolutely no symptoms) does not exist; this is still under discussion.”

So interesting today that WHO now says asymptomatic persons spreading the disease is very rare! And it is remarkable that prestigious medical magazines are quite sloppy about checking certain facts.

24192 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to swedenborg, 2, #282 of 751 🔗

Not to mention the completely discredited study published in the Lancet rubbishing the use of hydroxychloroquine which has had to be retracted. It was pretty much completely made up by non-scientists but the Lancet was only too eager and ready to publish it. They’re happy to kill people if it’s anti-Trump. They’re also very selective about which black lives matter….

24358 ▶▶▶ Sceptique, replying to Lms23, #283 of 751 🔗

It’s a disgrace. Black lives do matter and particularly where Covid-19 is concerned. I’m French and have been watching reports from the French professor who had great results combining Hydroxycloroquine with Zinc and an antibiotic – they could have at least looked at this study, it could have saved hundreds of lives particularly in the BAME community. Scandalous!

24060 Shell, replying to Shell, 3, #284 of 751 🔗

Baffling the BBC would think anyone would believe these latest predictions out of Imperial. Could it be butt-covering on the part of Imperial?

Coronavirus: Lockdowns in Europe saved millions of lives by James Gallagher

24512 ▶▶ John P, replying to Shell, #285 of 751 🔗

Oh, I think it might just be that !

24071 mark baker, replying to mark baker, 10, #286 of 751 🔗

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/06/08/schools-may-stay-shut-beyond-september-matt-hancock-signals/ Now, the government tells us that schools will not open til September AT THE EARLIEST!! Presumably by then, the cold weather will have started to set in and RTIs will be increasing so it’ll be decided just to give the winter a miss and open up … next May?!? How are we going to solve the schools’ problem? Hancock brilliantly says we’re “going to require ingenuity”!! No shit, Sherlock!!

24074 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to mark baker, 9, #287 of 751 🔗

These people are crazy.

They are the perfect storm of narcisstic (protect….. the….. NH- our reputations!….at…. all….costs) and dumb as pigshit (did a scientist or overpaid mathmatics hack say it and does it fit my agenda? IT WILL BECOME LAW!)

24174 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to mark baker, 6, #288 of 751 🔗

Would love to know who is paying Hancock off in the background (vested interests). No sane person will make these decisions/statements.

24202 ▶▶ Nic, replying to mark baker, 1, #289 of 751 🔗

To be fair it is impossible to run a school properly with social distancing might as well shut them all down and save some money or they could stop this distancing nonesemse

24511 ▶▶ John P, replying to mark baker, #290 of 751 🔗

Well they are all shut in July and August anyway for the most part, so there is not long left of the Summer term.

24078 John P, 14, #291 of 751 🔗

I’ve been thinking about the word “evidence” a lot lately.

It’s worth thinking about what actually constitutes evidence.

Evidence is material relating to events that have already happened. Historical events. It is material which claims to demonstrate proof that a particular event occurred.

So you might have a birth certificate. This claims to be evidence of a human birth. A person was born and then someone (by law) is required to report that event to an appropriate authority. A registrar of births. A record is made of the event and a certificate is then issued.

It’s also worth remembering that evidence can be faulty.

It is possible that what claims to be a birth certificate is a forgery. Common sense would suggest that these are a minority, but there might be reasons why someone would try to forge one.

There is also the possibility that a particular birth certificate could be claimed by someone to whom it does not actually relate. You might again claim a certificate that is not “yours” for nefarious purposes. It is even possible that you could simply be mistaken. But in any event these possibilities are again likely to be very much the minority.

You might have evidence of a crime.

That might be samples of blood or clothing. It would have to be carefully recorded. You might have photographic or video evidence. Again all of these forms of evidence are subject to the possibilities of forgery or mistaken identity.

But again, evidence always relates to events that have already happened.

So why am I saying all of this?

Someone said that lockdowns should not have been imposed unless there was evidence that they worked. There is no evidence. Lockdown has never been tried before.

Nothing that Ferguson has done constitutes evidence. Modelling is educated guesswork. It is not evidence. Nor, in my opinion, is it science.

Science, in my opinion works by positing a theory about an aspect of reality and then devising experiments to see if the theory is true.

Lockdown is only science to the extent that someone thought it might be a good idea and then they are trying it out to see. We are all guinea pigs in a vast experiment that we did not volunteer to take part in!

And will the powers-that-be be honest in their evaluation of the success of lockdown? That seems extremely doubtful – political careers depend on it’s being deemed a success!

24080 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 3, #292 of 751 🔗


An article just published of severe cases of Covd-19 that blood group O seemed to be protective of severe outcome of Covid-19 and blood group A could instead have a more severe outcome.
One article more showing that the Covid-19 infection is not affecting indiscriminately, certain persons are more or less affected. Why could not similar things happen in milder cases?

24199 ▶▶ annie, replying to swedenborg, #293 of 751 🔗

I’m ok, then, I’m AB Negative. Every bloody armful.

24082 Tenchy, replying to Tenchy, 13, #294 of 751 🔗

I had to laugh at this comment in The Telegraph (paywall article but you can read the comments):


“This has to stop. Even if this means executing Hancock.”

24084 ▶▶ Tenchy, replying to Tenchy, 29, #295 of 751 🔗

And here’s another classic comment on the piece:

WTF is wrong with this country. How have we got where we are today? Why do our leaders fail, at every opportunity, in their duty to lead?

This useless Government in connivance with the hapless woke civil service are destroying the fabric of society – we have been led into a dystopian nightmare by a bunch of morons.

Get the bloody schools open – get rid of this socialist distancing rubbish – get the pubs and cafes and restaurants open – get the shops open properly again and get the economy back on track or we are going to suffer dreadfully.

CV19 lockdown is a huge con trick – when will people see the emperor has no clothes?

24095 ▶▶ Fly, replying to Tenchy, 4, #296 of 751 🔗

M.Hancock (silent h) is a sociopath. His priorities are seriously skewed… Just look him in the eyes.

His ineptness will result in a generation struggling with anxiety and OCD. This must not be allowed to happen.

24172 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Tenchy, 2, #297 of 751 🔗

From the article: Gavin Williams “is expected to admit that only half of the eligible children in reception, year one and year six have returned following a union and council backlash about safety.”

Therefore can’t see any reason why all schools can’t reopen today with only 50% of children. There will be enough space in the classroom for them to continue their farcical social distancing.

24310 ▶▶ swedenborg, replying to Tenchy, 3, #298 of 751 🔗

Saxony had today 3 cases of Covid-19 in the whole state.They have had schools open since 3 and half weeks without any stupid facemasks,shields,social distancing,chalk playground,normal schooling

24324 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to swedenborg, #299 of 751 🔗

Madness not to open schools!
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/no-child-known-to-have-passed-on-coronavi. .

24086 Adele Bull, replying to Adele Bull, 21, #300 of 751 🔗

I’m going to a friends house for a bbq on Saturday! Something to look forward to! That’s been the hardest thing for me, the injustice of it all and lack of things to look forward to. And don’t tell anyone, but there’ll be 8 of us at the bbq… 😳 🤷‍♀️ 🍹

24090 ▶▶ OKUK, replying to Adele Bull, 9, #301 of 751 🔗

It’s OK – just say it’s a BLM support meeting. No problem.

24096 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Adele Bull, 4, #302 of 751 🔗

It’s ok you can just say the modelling assumes only 80% of you will get infected so that’s 6.4 people and you rounded to the nearest whole number.

24112 ▶▶ annie, replying to Adele Bull, 2, #303 of 751 🔗

I hope you’ll all be following the correct protocol. Read it very carefully. If you don’t, it could cost lives.
And DON’T ask to go to the loo.

24140 ▶▶▶ Nic, replying to annie, #304 of 751 🔗

I have always followed the rules! LOL

24205 ▶▶ Nic, replying to Adele Bull, #305 of 751 🔗

I haven’t taken notice of any rules since Ferguson dropped his pants had a party every Saturday with my mates and I know lots of other people are doing the same

24087 JohnB, 4, #306 of 751 🔗

Woo. May help, can’t hurt. So am re-posting this from Friday’s page –

Barney McGrew

Reply to Julian

Yes, the economy depends on activity. Yet the whole idea of restricting freedom to go to each others’ houses, go on holiday, go to shops, pubs, restaurants, theatres is to reduce activity. We are being encouraged to see activity as a reckless indulgence.

This is a very good point, Barney. Thank you.

We are still in the ‘Action’ cycle (according to some esoteric authorities) until the midsummer solstice. In the UK this year, that is 20th June, 10:43pm.

Anyone of a flexible mindset might like to join a lockdownsceptics magic project ?

Obviously we are all active every day in many ways. The suggestion is that we act, be active, and complete actions, in an escalating fashion until the solstice. One extra action today, two extra tomorrow, etc. Anything involving any sort of activity counts. Apart from plans to assassinate or send harm to anyone, etc., or things we’d do anyway such as brushing teeth.

For a second or two prior the action, mentally (or out loud if possible) affirm intent such as – “I act/complete this activity/am active to heal myself, society, and the world.”. Your own words are just as good, but no ‘try’s, ‘if’s, ‘might’s, or future tense.

That’s it. A chance to weed that flower bed, tile that shelf, change the oil in the car, phone/meet that parent/child/friend, oil that hinge, deface that poster, dust that window ledge, clean the fishpond, read that article, practice that yoga asana, deadhead those roses, … . (Several of my own ‘list items’ feature here, but they are only illustrative.  ).

24097 Peter Thompson, replying to Peter Thompson, 10, #307 of 751 🔗

Well done on the pic of the NHS flag by the church. The Health Service has been the state religion of the UK for many years , certainly I noticed it as a rather innocent medical student one or two decades ago.

This weekend I watched the LockdownTV interview with Professor Karl Friston where he made the observation that a considerable number of people were immune to infection with Covid19 maybe upto 80 % in some communities and this would explain the different experience of the pandemic in different communities/countries.


Afterwards I reflected on why did former West Germany have so many more Covid fatalities than the former East Germany. What explains the difference between northern Italy and Southern Italy. Why was New York, London, Birmingham, Brussels and Stockholm hit much worse than Tokyo,Sydney,Warsaw, and Budapest.

The answer may lie in the demographics and environment . . Both Australia ( not lauded by the BBC ) and New Zealand ( heavily praised by the BBC because they have a living saint as their PM ) had low rates of covid. Would the virus arriving mid summer in both nations be the key? vit D .

Certainly it could be argued that those communities with high deprivation, high density of population , high BAME and a large older population some living communally in care homes in the west seem to have been hit hard . Maybe combining these population groups provided more tinder to ignite the fire.

24100 ▶▶ OKUK, replying to Peter Thompson, 5, #308 of 751 🔗

Yep lot of truth in what you say. Belgium has the worst Covid death rate in the world.

Germany generally has a surprisingly low rate…I wonder whether it is their hygiene culture having an effect. Out of all the European nations they probably take hygiene and their health generally most seriously.

24139 ▶▶▶ Nic, replying to OKUK, 5, #309 of 751 🔗

Unfortunately the uk is 1 of the most obese ,unfit unhealthy nations in the world if we were fit and had sorted out care homes we would have less desths than germany

24207 ▶▶▶ Sceptique, replying to OKUK, 4, #310 of 751 🔗

Love ’em or hate ’em, Germans are one of the most efficient and organised people on earth. They are also meticulous about figures. I’m not surprised they had fewer deaths, they probably only counted people who actually died from Covid – unlike the UK that was beefing up the figures to accentuate the fear.

24269 ▶▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to Sceptique, 1, #311 of 751 🔗

Its not just the essentially meaningless deaths with covid figure thats lower for Germany but this epidemic is just not visible in their all cause mortality at all: https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps/

Presumably we can count dead bodies as well as they do in Germany. I am not sure how a deadly virus completely bypasses certain countries, I can only guess that the excess deaths are more a result of our responses to the virus rather then the virus itself. For example did Germany empty out all their hospitals in the same we we did – I do not know.

24291 ▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Saved To Death, 2, #312 of 751 🔗

They did not. See my comment above.

24292 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to matt, 2, #313 of 751 🔗

The other thing they did very well, by identifying quickly those already in hospital who had it and testing all those being admitted into hospital (symptomatic or not) was to make it far easier to stop it from spreading around the non-covid wards. Far fewer already-sick people catching it and getting sicker and far fewer people dying of other things and subsequently found to have Faldo caught the virus.

24294 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to matt, #314 of 751 🔗

Faldo? Really?

No idea where that cam from. Please ignore.

24209 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to OKUK, 1, #315 of 751 🔗

If you have the will, the organisation and the capacity to test everyone in a hospital, whether or not they’re currently showing symptoms before you send them back to their care home, and then to isolate anyone found to be positive and practice decent disease control, then you prevent the virus from circulating nearly so badly among large swathes of exactly the part of the population that is susceptible to the severe disease.

That way, fewer people die.

There doesn’t need to be anything magical about the German culture or their genetics to explain the numbers.

24707 ▶▶▶▶ djaustin, replying to matt, #316 of 751 🔗

Germany wasn’t testing early in their epidemic. What they did was take their (science-trained) chancellor at her word, accept the gravity of the situation and act accordingly. Germans don’t “struggle on” into work when sick. They isolate themselves. Only later did Germany’s decentralised healthcare system ramp up local testing (they have oversupply of testing now).

Their behaviour bought them a couple of doubling times. Their testing then bought them control of hospital and nursing home infections. Their control bought them an unlocking weeks earlier than otherwise possible.

And in the U.K. I give you…. The Cheltenham Festival. Late and soft. Not early and hard. No wonder we have skeptics. It’s not hard to see why though. If we had had the same leadership and outcome as a Germany, I don’t think this site would exist!

24113 CarrieAH, replying to CarrieAH, 5, #317 of 751 🔗

News from the Telegraph this morning that Quash Quarantine (BA, RyanAir, easyJet et al) have postponed their legal action as they have been told air bridges will be in effect by the end of the month. I wouldn’t trust the government as far as I could throw them! What’s the betting it’s another shambles and something happens to stop the air bridges?


24114 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to CarrieAH, 2, #318 of 751 🔗

Bosses of the travel and hospitality industry have been privately assured by the Government that “air bridges” will be introduced for foreign summer holidays from June 29 to replace blanket quarantine.

The Quash Quarantine group of more than 500 of the biggest names in the industry said that as a result they would suspend their threatened legal action to overturn quarantine.

“There’s a desire by the group to take action and we are not ruling it out in the future but we have had these assurances from senior Government sources that travel corridors will be in place from June 29,” said Paul Charles, a spokesman for the group whose businesses turn over £10 billion a year.

“We are waiting for urgent Government direction on that happening.”

It is thought confirmation could come as early as this week after the Cabinet meets on Tuesday. It is likely to be allied to a lifting of the Foreign Office ban on non-essential travel to “low risk” countries.

Portugal, Spain, France, Italy, Greece and Australia are thought to be frontrunners for “travel corridors” which would allow holidaymakers and business people to go to and from the countries without having to self-isolate for 14 days.

Quash Quarantine, which includes hoteliers such as Rocco Forte and the biggest travel firms, has warned that 71 per cent of its members expect to lay off up to 60 per cent of their staff if travel restrictions continue. More than a quarter (28 per cent) fear they will have to cease trading.

Priti Patel, the Home Secretary, set four conditions for lifting the quarantine including a country having low infection rates, effective anti-coronavirus measures, low levels of imported cases in countries and testing to minimise the health risk.

“It is fair to say things are moving at pace,” said a Government source, although it has publicly avoided setting a date to ensure the health conditions are met.

The quarantine, which came into force yesterday, still faces a legal challenge from British Airways’s parent company IAG, Ryanair and Easyjet.

Michael O’Leary, Ryanair’s chief executive, said the airlines’ injunction bid could be heard by the end of this week, as he revealed the number of Britons booking holidays abroad had doubled in a week.

IAG has already sent a “pre-action” legal letter to the Home Office, backed by Ryanair and Easyjet, saying quarantine is unjustified, unfair, disproportionate and ineffective.

“I think the courts will hear it quickly because it is an injunctive-type measure,” he said. “We don’t see how the Home Office will be able to put up any defence whatsoever. There is no way that they can argue in court that this is an effective quarantine or that this has any scientific basis at all.

“It is an irrational measure that does untold economic damage to British tourism, to millions of jobs in British tourism. It seems to be having very little impact on British people going abroad in July and August, they are already booking in their hundreds and thousands.”

Some of the first passengers arriving to be quarantined yesterday morning faced queues at Heathrow after failing to fill in their “locator” forms. On one flight to Stansted yesterday, it was claimed just three of the 60 passengers had filled out the online form beforehand.

It also emerged yesterday that police will have only a “limited” role in enforcing quarantine and will only issue £1,000 fines for people who fail to self-isolate “as a last resort,” said National Police Chiefs’ Council’s (NPCC) guidance to forces.

Police expect to be called to only 60 to 100 addresses a day if phone calls to the individuals by Public Health England raise suspicions. “[Officers] must ensure they have made all attempts to Engage, Explain and Encourage before moving on to Enforcement,” said the NPCC.

24128 ▶▶ TJN, replying to CarrieAH, 3, #319 of 751 🔗

Isn’t there a difference between the Quash Quarantine challenge and that by BA/RyanAir/EasyJet which is still going ahead?

Yes, we can be sure that air-bridges will be yet another shambles.

24137 ▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to TJN, #320 of 751 🔗

Yes I’ve just read the Telegraph article again. I think you are right, apologies. I didn’t have my glasses in the first time! 😄

24138 ▶▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to CarrieAH, #321 of 751 🔗

in = on. Oh for an edit button!

24170 ▶▶▶▶ TJN, replying to CarrieAH, #322 of 751 🔗

I read it as you did first time – a misleading headline, which means you have to read the full article carefully to ascertain what has actually happened.

24162 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to CarrieAH, #323 of 751 🔗


24116 wendyk, 1, #324 of 751 🔗


And here is some guidance from the Covid app for the recent protesters. Note that it’s carefully non judgemental, in accordance with the spirit of the times.
Presumably, this advice will also apply to lockdown sceptics, who protest against the house arrests.

24117 wendyk, 6, #325 of 751 🔗


And a good one from The Telegraph, for those who might not have seen it.

24122 CarrieAH, 6, #326 of 751 🔗

Simon Dolan’s Crowdjustice campaign is nearing £170,000 raised. He is also taking in the quarantine of travellers issue as well as lockdown.


24123 TJN, replying to TJN, 9, #327 of 751 🔗

A dodgy-looking week for Planet Johnson and his cohorts coming up.

There’s the arrivals quarantine mess, which is unravelling before it’s even started, and which looks certain to face a legal challenge from the airline industry within a few days. Track and trace is turning into yet another policy farce (anyone heard anything about ‘The App’ lately), the concept of which the government is probably hoping will quietly go away. Simon Dolan’s bid for a judicial review into the lockdown is proceeding, and the government must respond by this Friday (12 June), with swift legal action against them almost certain to follow.

Then here’s the compulsory muzzle-wearing on public transport (and in hospitals) from next Monday. How widespread will be the non-compliance? My guess is about a quarter to start with, and many others taking the piss, and those numbers increasing over following days. And if that happens it’s all over – I don’t mean just muzzle-wearing, I mean any public respect for this government and its shambolic conduct in office.

Johnson, I think, will be taking the Lord’s Name in vain a lot more over the coming days.

And that’s all before the economic and social consequences of the last three months’ debacle have even begun to bite.

24127 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to TJN, 7, #328 of 751 🔗

Then here’s the compulsory muzzle-wearing on public transport (and in hospitals) from next Monday. How widespread will be the non-compliance? My guess is about a quarter to start with, and many others taking the piss, and those numbers increasing over following days. And if that happens it’s all over – I don’t mean just muzzle-wearing, I mean any public respect for this government and its shambolic conduct in office.

It will be unenforceable even the 2m rule especially if there are delays to the service and tempers flare as several people are worried about turning up late for work which can have all sorts of consequences such as docked pay or being entered into the employee record. There are stickers on buses here that maximum capacity is 20 for double decker buses and 10 for single ones. That’s not going to work especially when it rains and in several areas where transport service is close to useless.

24133 ▶▶▶ Nic, replying to Bart Simpson, 7, #329 of 751 🔗

The country will not be able to function with social distancing any body with any sense knows this

24134 ▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Nic, 5, #330 of 751 🔗

Exactly. It’s common sense but our leaders are too dim to understand that.

What will it take to make them wake up?

I won’t be surprised if many of the stores that will reopen on 15 June will close again never to reopen before this month is over.

24141 ▶▶▶▶▶ John Smith, replying to Bart Simpson, 6, #331 of 751 🔗

Our leaders are NOT being “too dim”.

This is a deliberate plan of action.

Wtf is wrong with you people? Even when it’s laid out in front of you, you still refuse to understand.

24169 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ IanE, replying to John Smith, 5, #332 of 751 🔗

Well, that is one theory. Personally, I believe the giant cock-up theory. That Johnson replied “Christ” when told about likely unemployment consequences of his approach just shows how detached from reality he and the cabinet are. They live in a detached world in which consequences are never seen and scarcely ever even realised.

24135 ▶▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Nic, 4, #333 of 751 🔗

Back at the very beginning of all of this, in the dark mists of time, I had high hopes of Chris Whitty being a sensible force behind the throne. Sadly it seems my hopes were misplaced.

24132 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to TJN, 3, #334 of 751 🔗

The messier, the better I think. At least then they will not dare to try another lockdown. We can but hope.

24191 ▶▶ annie, replying to TJN, 4, #335 of 751 🔗

I shall savour every nasty moment for our moronic masters.
And I can’t wait to dance on their graves. I’m a very bad dancer, but that’s all to the good. I shall wear clogs.

24124 PD, replying to PD, 3, #336 of 751 🔗

It’s seems The Guardian’s fearless journalism isn’t as independent as we’re led to believe. (Look who’s at the top of the list!)


Perhaps this is why they’ve been so reluctant to criticise the Tawry imposed lockdown despite accusing the same party of killing >100,000 people with austerity.


24142 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to PD, 3, #337 of 751 🔗

Oh surprise! Gates again at the top of the list. I hated that man and his horrid software, I loathe him even more now.

24218 ▶▶▶ Sceptique, replying to CarrieAH, 1, #338 of 751 🔗

He seems to have bought off everybody. No wonder the Guardian has become a mouthpiece for Big Pharma. Oh for the days when it was actually an independent newspaper.

24563 ▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to PD, #339 of 751 🔗

Yep, all roads (and not just for “coronavirus”) lead back to 2 names – Bill Gates and George Soros.

24126 TJN, #340 of 751 🔗

Does anyone know what’s happening with John Kirby’s/Journeyman Pictures’ excellent ‘Perspectives on the Pandemic’ series?

I haven’t seen anything new since episode 8, released on 22 May. Perhaps he’s been shadow-banned, or banned, or otherwise silenced.

24129 Bart Simpson, replying to Bart Simpson, 8, #341 of 751 🔗

Another consequence of the lockdown. Article is from the Times so I have taken the liberty of copying and pasting in full below:

Coronavirus lockdown has pushed addiction into the shadows
Graham Beech

People are drinking more in lockdown. Whether to relieve boredom, combat fear and anxiety, or to socialise distantly, people are consuming significantly more alcohol. One in four adults has indicated that they are drinking more — and the concern is that, as well as other things on a list of dire human and economic consequences of Covid-19, this will have a long-term impact for those vulnerable to addiction.

A snapshot YouGov survey commissioned by Action on Addiction found that 15 per cent had experienced physical alcohol withdrawal symptoms, as well as problems relating to relationships, work, money or sleep. Almost a quarter of those reporting problems said that they would need help to resolve them.

We have also heard worrying stories from people feeling the negative effects of increased drug taking and repeated episodes of online gaming and gambling. Inevitably, frontline charities and services will feel the pressures of a rise in addiction and people seeking help.

And then there is the impact on young people: 4 per cent of those surveyed, equivalent to more than two million people nationally, have a close relative aged between 12 and 15 showing increasing signs of developing addictive behaviour during lockdown. More than one third believe the young person would need support and help.

Addiction is a progressive condition. It can start out as fun, or a bit of a habit, and then it progresses to a need or a dependency. A dependency with consequences — not just for the individual, but for all those they associate with.

We already know that Covid-19 will have consequences for many years to come. Our survey suggests that addiction will be among them.

One of the difficulties in tackling addiction is that it is largely a hidden problem. Lockdown has driven it further into the shadows, enabling it to grow — sometimes unnoticed, behind closed doors. That in turn makes seeking help more difficult. Traditional self-help and community resources such as 12-step meetings have, in many instances, moved online with positive results. Yet the absence of physical interaction in lockdown will inevitably have been an impediment for many, especially those in the early stages of recovery.

If not tackled, we face long-term consequences for both individuals and families, and costs to society. We need a radical review of how addiction is treated in this country, identifying and preventing problems early before it is too late, and providing treatment and support to protect families from addiction’s ravages, including, of course, children and young people. That means funding, but above all, a change in attitude to this side-lined and misunderstood condition.

Addiction is often not recognised as an illness. It carries a stigma, that somehow individuals are to blame for the situation in which they find themselves. Our patron, the Duchess of Cambridge, has supported us in improving understanding of this life-stopping condition, and her timely digital visit to Clouds House, our residential treatment centre in Wiltshire, in response to this issue will do much to remove that stigma. It will also hopefully raise awareness of how to access support, treatment and specialist help so that more people can move on from addiction and lives can be saved.

Graham Beech is chief executive of Action on Addiction


24146 ▶▶ Mark H, replying to Bart Simpson, 11, #342 of 751 🔗

Wait, doesn’t the government have clear guidelines on alcohol consumption? Guidelines that are in place to protect the NHS (alcohol related illness costs the NHS £3.5 billion a year) and to save lives?

Do you mean to say that, while following one set of guidelines to save lives, people have been ignoring another set of guidelines to save lives?

24148 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Mark H, 2, #343 of 751 🔗

Well a lot of illnesses and conditions have gone out of the window because of Covid 19. I can only assume that alcoholism would be one of them.

24158 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to Mark H, #344 of 751 🔗

Quite – I am shocked, I tell you, shocked!

24167 ▶▶▶ Sceptique, replying to Mark H, 2, #345 of 751 🔗

At this rate, we may as well wrap the NHS in cotton wool and store them somewhere out of harm’s way. We’d probably save more lives that way anyway, given our appalling record with Corona on the world stage.

24247 ▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Bart Simpson, 1, #346 of 751 🔗

I can confirm our consumption of alcohol in this household has spiked off the charts, boredom and rage are both contributory factors. Boris has an awful lot to answer for. 6 months until we are a free country then Boris and his cabinet can shove off!

24266 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Bella Donna, #347 of 751 🔗

There’s a lot of anecdotal evidence of that around. If i remember correctly, there was also a spike in alcoholism and alcohol related deaths during the Great Depression.

24130 Biker, replying to Biker, 16, #348 of 751 🔗

The whole lockdown is a sham. Piss poor politicians taking decisions based on evidence by global technocratic elite wankers who don’t have Britains interest at heart. Less people dying of this pandemic than the regular flu. No one knows anyone who’s had it. No-one at my work and the other store near me, none of my customers know anyone who’s had it. There has to be another reason for this.
We need in this country a proper clean out of all these globalist shills that have infect us worse than than any virus. This virus was set about us because Britain and America under Trump being the two greatest countries on the planet decided we didn’t want these globalist shadowy people running our countries any more. We got the EU off our back and Trump was undoing what the war makers Obama and Bush had done. We nearly made it but we didn’t take into consideration that Boris was lying. We thought he was one of us but like Trump is finding the deep state long time sleeper agents are everywhere. The good ship Albion will not be allowed to sail the seven seas, Britannia will be destroyed. However the sons and daughters of Boadicea, the Children of the Stones, Picts and even some millenniums (not many mind since most of them have the spines of a broiler chicken) are not gonna take it any more. I’m not gonna play any more. I’m not doing what the state wants any more. This ladies and gents is a war for your soul being conducted by technocratic lunatics who think the world is theirs and me being alive is killing it so i must be killed, my children must be kept illiterate and housebound. my parents must be killed off quickly and any property, wealth etc must be taken and used against me. I must comply with hundreds of forms and licences and conditions to leave the house. I must be taxed to death, i must have my petrol cars and bikes taken from me i also must think i’m privileged and bow to Blacks for being white. I mustn’t complain when the awful Sturgeon brings in hundreds of thousands of ethnics and tells me that they are Scottish now and i must put up with them. I must accept Strugeons view and any deviation will be “hate speech”. Well no more. I declare the Kingdom of Fife at war with these people and will be seeking to remove the Scottish government from our backs, the British Parliament can go fuck itself and the EU is dead but fuck them anyway. The regions of this great country need to be just that, regions with a loose association with each other only joining together occasionally to fight of the French/Romans/Muslims herds that are always wanting to take us over. This threat to our way of life is no different than the Roman Empire.

24156 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Biker, 5, #349 of 751 🔗

Too many sheeple in the way. This is 1984. We are Winston Smith. The end.

24305 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to IanE, -1, #350 of 751 🔗

That Hitler, he’s only gone and annexed the Sudetenland. We must roll over immediately, surrender, and let him have whatever he wants. Sheesh.

24163 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to Biker, 6, #351 of 751 🔗

And, Biker, if that weren’t bad enough, unless you opt out they will take your organs when you have died …

24168 ▶▶▶ Biker, replying to kh1485, 1, #352 of 751 🔗


24179 ▶▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Biker, 3, #353 of 751 🔗

Yep, after the 1st attempt to make organ donation compulsory and opt-out failed a few years ago they let it lie then quietly re-introduced it last year.

I can vaguely recall a quote from a politician at the time but not sure if it related to this or not that went basically “we’ll drop it until the next series of strictly come dancing and do it anyway”.

In effect they think they own your body.

I’ve opted out and so have most people I know.


24190 ▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Awkward Git, 3, #354 of 751 🔗

Me too. The State taking over your body is. not. on.

24238 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to annie, 1, #355 of 751 🔗

Me too. They’ve taken everything else from me, they can go whistle on this!

24241 ▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to kh1485, 2, #356 of 751 🔗

I opted out, freely donating your organs is one thing but the NHS taking ownership of what is yours is something else altogether.

24210 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to Biker, 4, #357 of 751 🔗

“No one knows anyone who’s had it.”

I do know someone, whose funeral is next week after he contracted it in hospital.
But: if we didn’t hear about it constantly in the news, it’s unlikely anyone would have noticed it. There are plenty of virus infections that go around the population, e.g. the virus that left people with a long-lasting cough that did the rounds December to March. I caught it, and so did many people I know. I have no idea if it was CV19 or not. I think not, as it didn’t seem to fit all the symptoms, but who knows.
But it wasn’t exactly newsworthy. So if the media hadn’t bombarded us with non-stop news about this “pandemic” it’s doubtful anyone would have been bothered about it. It hasn’t exactly been dropping otherwise healthy people in their thousands.

24244 ▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Lms23, 1, #358 of 751 🔗

Did they die with it or from it that is the question and one the government makes no distinction. Italy has admitted they manipulated their Covid figures. We know our government has too.

24239 ▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Biker, 3, #359 of 751 🔗

I am still unaware of anyone who has had this virus. The people keeping it alive are those who are most afraid, a bit like as a child being frightened of the bogeyman who only lives in the child’s imagination. Fear is now weaponised and used to great effect. It’s quite despicable!

24311 ▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to Biker, 3, #360 of 751 🔗

My view is that the current system is illegitimate, therefore their diktats are just mere noise. I will do what i want, and am with you on willing the whole thing to come crashing down. It’s moribund, entrenched, over-proscriptive, systematically autocratic, detached. Charles 1 went down under the same conditions, so did Louis 16. Maybe Charles 3 will face the same. I’d rather live with freedom and danger than safety and control. Here’s to the old kingdoms!

24145 CarrieAH, replying to CarrieAH, 2, #361 of 751 🔗

Yet another High Court challenge against the government, this time by doctors. The government’s legal beagles are going to be busy.


Doctors and campaigners have launched a High Court challenge against the Government over its refusal to hold an urgent public inquiry into PPE shortages.

A claim for judicial review has been lodged with the court by the Doctors’ Association UK, Hourglass – a charity which works to prevent abuse and neglect of older people – and legal pressure group the Good Law Project.

They argue Health Secretary Matt Hancock’s refusal to commit to an enhanced investigation into whether failings in procurement, stockpiling, distribution and provision of personal protective equipment (PPE) may have contributed to the deaths or serious illnesses of NHS and care home staff and patients from Covid-19 is unlawful.

The group, which is crowdfunding its case, says an inquiry which complies with Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR), the right to life, should be automatic and is required in circumstances where those deaths and illnesses have been “caused or contributed to” by the state.

24188 ▶▶ annie, replying to CarrieAH, 2, #362 of 751 🔗

I don’t think the Human Rights Act has actually been abolished (yet), but it sure as hell ain’t being applied.

24212 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to CarrieAH, 4, #363 of 751 🔗

“the right to life, should be automatic and is required in circumstances where those deaths and illnesses have been “caused or contributed to” by the state.”

Will they include all the people not treated by the NHS who have died, e.g. cancer patients, heart attack and stroke victims??

24265 ▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to Lms23, #364 of 751 🔗

Or were they were ejected from hospitals in preparation for a flood of covid patients when there was no good evidence to suggest this would actually occur.

Lets all forget the ventilator panic too – its not as if this incredible miss allocation of resources will affect patient care.

24263 ▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to CarrieAH, 2, #365 of 751 🔗

Surely its the NHS that is responsible for purchasing the equipment it thinks it needs? Does anyone seriously think the NHS would be better if MPs micromanaged purchasing decisions.

Its a shame we have a medical system where doctors cannot hold the NHS itself responsible for the failings of the NHS without risking their careers. Mighty convenient if the failings of the NHS throughout this can be pinned on the failure of MPs to order more PPE on behalf of the NHS.

24149 Moomin, replying to Moomin, 28, #366 of 751 🔗


I mentioned last week that I’d finally heard back from Keir Starmer’s team and that I’d copy it in once I’d replied. Here’s what they wrote (with my reply underneath):


Thank you for your email to Keir Starmer MP about the global COVID-19/Coronavirus outbreak. At this point in time, Keir’s mailbag is so full that he has asked me to respond on his behalf. I’m very sorry for the delay in getting back to you.

Your views and assertions have been duly noted and shared with the relevant team.

Our thoughts are with the loved ones of those who have sadly died, and with those who have contracted the virus. We are immensely grateful to all our NHS staff and social care workers who are working tirelessly to help us deal with the crisis.

Labour want to support the Government to get this right, and that is why we need a national consensus on what happens next. Our priority is protecting the public’s health and saving lives. That is why we supported the lockdown and again support the restrictions staying in place at this time. Mistakes were made at the beginning of this crisis. The Government was slow to implement the lockdown, slow on testing and slow to get PPE to frontline workers. We need to learn from these mistakes.

We need a fully resourced testing, isolation and tracing programme. The Government should be using this lockdown time to put the fundamentals of infectious disease control in place. Through mass testing and contact tracing, we can break the chains of transmission until drugs and vaccines are available. This lockdown isn’t a strategy to rid us of Covid-19, but it buys us time to develop one. We should use that time wisely.

As we’ve seen from nations like South Korea, testing, tracing and isolating are fundamental to successfully tackling Covid-19 transmission. Digital technology is an important tool in a tracing strategy. We want to see the tracing app trial succeed. Our main concern must be to protect lives and safeguard our economy. We also need tracers out in the community. It’s crucial local government public health and primary health care expertise is fully mobilised alongside digital technology to ensure tracing succeeds.

Labour has repeatedly called for more testing, and increasing testing is an important milestone. However, the figure shouldn’t have counted test that hadn’t been used, or indeed, might never be used as a completed test. Ministers promised transparency and clarity – the public and NHS staff deserve no less.

It must be an urgent priority of the Government to ensure frontline NHS and care staff are provided with the PPE they have been telling us they desperately need for weeks. Reports that NHS staff are now being asked to treat coronavirus patients without full-length gowns show the severity of the PPE shortage in our hospitals, and the desperate need for more to be done, and faster, to keep frontline workers safe.

If medical advice in the UK changes on wearing face masks, as the Prime Minister has suggested, it is important that the Government has a plan to ensure that we are producing, procuring and distributing enough, that everybody has access to them. Those working on the frontline in the NHS and in care must be the priority, and the Government must ensure there is no competition between supply for frontline workers and members of the public.

It is imperative that the Government is properly planning for what happens next and properly supporting our NHS and social care services. We have proposed seven principles that any exit strategy should contain, and we hope the Government will take our suggestions on board, in a spirit of unity to combat the crisis.

Finally, we need make the case for what comes after this crisis: we can no longer live in a society where care workers are undervalued, or our NHS is starved of funding. Labour will make the case for that better future and a fairer society.

Best wishes’


I trust that you are well and thank you for finally responding to my previous emails.

Whilst I appreciate the fact that you have responded, I note that you have failed to meaningfully engage in any way with the issues that I raised and with the questions that I suggested for Sir Starmer.

Your email states that, ‘ Our priority is protecting the public’s health and saving lives. That is why we supported the lockdown and again support the restrictions staying in place at this time.’

However, your failure to see this situation for what it really is, namely an unnecessary and self-inflicted national disaster that followed the example of a Chinese communist dictatorship, went against WHO recommendations and even, it would appear, went against the advice of SAGE and thus did not follow ‘the science’, despite the fact that I practically spelled it out for you in my emails, just goes to show how far removed your party is from reality.

You state that your priority is to protect the public’s health and save lives, yet you support a government policy that has condemned thousands to death, that has caused the unnecessary closure of thousands of businesses, that has resulted in numerous redundancies, that has caused high unemployment, that has undermined the education of thousands of innocent children and young adults, that has curtailed our civil liberties and that has failed to protect the vulnerable, to name but a few things. Tell me, in all honesty, how is that ‘protecting the public’s health and saving lives’?

Perhaps it should come as no surprise that your party supports the government since its policy is the most socialist policy that a conservative government has ever implemented. However, your failure to stand up for the truth and for the well being of the British people by opposing the lockdown means that you are complicit in the degeneration and destruction of our society.

I am surprised, saddened and disheartened that Sir Starmer, as a qualified lawyer, has failed to objectively look at the evidence that is available to him that shows that a lockdown is ineffective and has failed to see and have the courage to take the opportunity to do the right thing and to stand up for the truth.

When the history books are written over this whole fiasco no doubt some will comment on the massive lost opportunity that this has been for the Labour party, supposedly the party of the people, to totally undermine this shambolic government.

These are dark days for British politics, with a government that has no idea what it’s doing and an opposition that poses no opposition whatsoever.

Your email mentions about using ‘time wisely’, yet, sadly, wisdom and common sense has been seriously lacking in this country over the past few months, including from the opposition.


24152 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Moomin, 7, #367 of 751 🔗

Yes. Sadly, this has always been the type of response I have received from MPs on just about any concern raised. Ignore all my points; repeat all their party’s trite arguments; send out the same form reply to any and all contacts; job ‘done’.

Totally sickening.

24154 ▶▶ Invunche, replying to Moomin, 9, #368 of 751 🔗

I wrote similar emails to yours to both Starmer and my own Labour MP. I’m expecting similar knuckleheaded responses.

That’s one of the most frustrating things about this.

No opposition.

Not in politics. Not in the press. Certainly not on tv.

24230 ▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Invunche, 2, #369 of 751 🔗

Have you not noticed how similar Johnson and Starmer are politically, you couldn’t put a cigarette paper between them.

24340 ▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to Bella Donna, #370 of 751 🔗

Sir Keir is surely more Establishment than Johnson?

24155 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Moomin, 4, #371 of 751 🔗

The reply you received does not surprise me – none of them are bothering to seriously engage with the consequences of this lockdown and social distancing.

And I notice as well that they all seem to be parroting that well-worn trope of “protecting the nation’s health and saving lives” which ironically has condemned those with other physical ailments and mental health issues as well as those who have been made unemployed and bankrupt to misery that could have easily been prevented.

24159 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Moomin, 8, #372 of 751 🔗

Great job. Keir Starmer’s (team) response is an absolute joke. Thought Starmer might be an improvement from Corbyn but NOT. Sadly we are in this ridiculous position (as you described) because there is no Opposition to the Government.

24339 ▶▶▶ John P, replying to Victoria, #373 of 751 🔗

“Thought Starmer might be an improvement from Corbyn but NOT.”

Well, at least you are released from that delusion!

24164 ▶▶ Sceptique, replying to Moomin, 2, #374 of 751 🔗

Excellent response. But both government and opposition tend to follow certain guidelines in terms of what they are permitted to stay, for fear of it being publicised because it goes beyond a safe and agreed party line. It’s a pity, I agree. It would have given some of us former Tories scope to vote for Labour. We are running out of options and need new leaders who will tell the truth and respond appropriately.

24213 ▶▶ Tarquin Von Starheim, replying to Moomin, 4, #375 of 751 🔗

I wrote to my MP the complete wet lettuce liberal Wera Hobhouse 3 weeks ago to protest about the fact that she had written a letter to Gavin Williamson expressing concern about re-opening schools. I pointed out that I could introduce her to at least 100 of her own constituents who were parents and who were outraged about the continuing lack of educational provision for their children despite all available ‘scientific’ evidence that there was no risk in opening schools fully. I did not receive a reply and had given up until a couple of hours after Handjob’s press conference last Friday (at which he hinted that the R rate in the South West may be close to 1) when I received an email from Hobhouse that since the R rate was ‘dangerously close to 1’ in the South West this proved that she was right and opening schools any further was dangerous.
I was so angry I did not sleep much on Friday night.

24234 ▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Tarquin Von Starheim, 1, #376 of 751 🔗

Writing to MPs is a waste of time, but there is a certain satisfaction in letting them know you think they are idiots.

24343 ▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to Bella Donna, #377 of 751 🔗

Indeed. I have written several irate e-mails to my final e-mail to my MP and his trusty baldrick (PA).

24251 ▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to Moomin, 3, #378 of 751 🔗

We are effectively a one party state and this is text book totalitarianism.

24157 matt, replying to matt, #379 of 751 🔗

Does anybody know how you go about submitting a question for the press briefing? I mean, I know that any remotely awkward question is likely to be screened out, but it’s at least worth a try.

24173 ▶▶ Letmeout, replying to matt, #380 of 751 🔗

Hi Matt- I think it’s gov.uk/ask

24175 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to Letmeout, 1, #381 of 751 🔗

Ok. Worth a go, if only to make myself feel better. I’ll draft a question.

24177 ▶▶ IanE, replying to matt, #382 of 751 🔗

This used to be the way; I;m not sure if it still is.


24182 ▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to matt, #383 of 751 🔗


I’ve put a few in but never been “chosen” as I don’t follow the narrative.

You can also try this one but don’t hold your breath::


24183 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to Awkward Git, 1, #384 of 751 🔗

Number 10 has had a number of emails from me already.

24226 ▶▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to matt, #385 of 751 🔗

And me, none of which received a response.

24413 ▶▶▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Bella Donna, #386 of 751 🔗


24184 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to matt, #387 of 751 🔗
24301 ▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to matt, 2, #388 of 751 🔗

I always thought they just made those questions up…

24378 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Edgar Friendly, 1, #389 of 751 🔗

Me too. Pity the press can’t unearth the brilliant Brenda from Bristol. I bet she’d ask an incisive question!

24160 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 6, #390 of 751 🔗


From a twitter about epidemiologists/virologists scorecard

Epi/Viro prediction scorecard: – r0 X
– Asymptomatic %X

– Fatality rateX

– Impact on youthX

– TransmissionX

– Hospital overloadX

– And now: spread by asymptomaticX

Think of how much is riding on that last one! The curve, lockdowns, masks, schools..! ’bout to hit the fan

24171 ▶▶ matt, replying to swedenborg, 2, #391 of 751 🔗

Is it? You should be right, but as far as I can see, nobody has yet worked out where the fan is, let alone having picked up the shit or begun to take aim.

24161 Fiat, 3, #392 of 751 🔗

The picture of the herd of cows reminded me of Pink Floyd’s “Atom Heart Mother” album.

An extract from one of the songs, “If”:

If I were a good man, I’d understand the spaces between friends
If I were alone, I would cry
And if I were with you, I’d be home and dry
If I go insane, will you still let me join in with the game?

24165 Biker, replying to Biker, 4, #393 of 751 🔗

You can’t fight wars, you can’t protest, you can’t lose your mind and become a terrorist, you can’t write letters nor make documentaries, strongly worded post’s on the internet won’t work, going green, going vegan, going tee-total, going to the gym, going carb free and going down does nothing. Buying British, buying second hand, buying fresh or frozen, organic or free range, buying on line, forget it.
I have a plan to free Fife. We need to build a stone circle on a lay line next to a Yew tree. Tuned to 432hz and using drums and voices we play in the middle of the circle where the energy created will free your mind from the computer and retune it to the sun where it belongs.
Our minds are tuned to the sun and can slide off the tuning and that’s why we age and get sick. The only way to keep tuned is the Stone Circle. You can live forever when you know this. For instance the Queen Mother was over 800 years old when she died. No one knows how old Prince Philip is but he looks a good 600 years if he were a day to me. Royals have been in possession of this knowledge for as long as there’s been humans. It’s no joke. They also know about other ancient practices like giving birth on the right day in the right place and you can return to this earth in a new body. Prince Edward is right now raising the reincarnation of the Queen Mother as his very own daughter. See how all this works yet? They need us to work for them. They live for centuries and we burn out. They control your mind, the circle frees it. They’ve convinced you that your waking life is reality and you need to work factory hours. However you’re only awake to feed the body so you can go back to being asleep because when you’re sleeping you’re connected to the sun, the stars and everything. We are only working like we do to keep them from doing it so they can sleep as much as they want. We are their food. They deny us our nature and twist it and break it and cause turmoil in the minds of man. It’s really not very nice.
A collective unwind is required. Those of whom feel that “we must do something” are negatively charged the stone circle will make them positively charged. It still works in some of the circles to a certain extent. It will also break the spell of the modern world and we can all return to the old ways, we’ll be like the valley in the novel Atlas Shrugged.. Fife has a number of working stones and i have played bongos sitting in the middle of them so i’m hoping that will help me live long enough to tell the world what’s going on.
But in reality we need some rich person to build a brand new high tech circle with the stones cut to exact tolerances. Once this is done and harmony is restored to the minds of humans perhaps we could get back to leaving each other alone so we can enjoy whatever it is you enjoy in peace.

24185 ▶▶ annie, replying to Biker, 1, #394 of 751 🔗

‘There us a pleasure sure
In being mad, which none but madmen know.’

Stick with the stones, Biker!

24195 ▶▶▶ Biker, replying to annie, #395 of 751 🔗

The stones mean a lot to me. The Rolling Stones on the other hand not so much. These people (amongst others) were like the grease they used to slip into the minds of man conformity, sedation, detachment, drug abuse. With dependency on the infrastructure that allows it to happen we are worked to death in the world wide economic prison guarded over by the people who just want to help others and they probably like the Rolling Stones and mock the Stone Circle. Druids were the Rolling Stones of their time. The true nature of the stones are a musical connection to the sun, those with ears will hear the 432hz in the circle and realise that 440hz has shifted our cosmic connection just enough to makes us all sick and useless and trapped in their computer. and i’m not joking either.

24216 ▶▶ Tarquin Von Starheim, replying to Biker, #396 of 751 🔗

I’m sure Elon Musk would be keen on such a construction job.

24225 ▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Biker, #397 of 751 🔗

I can see lockdown has finally got to you! 😆 Be assured you’re not alone!

24300 ▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to Biker, 2, #398 of 751 🔗

Bringing back human sacrifice might be an idea as well. I hear the gods like their offerings to look like a blubbery haystack and to have a name that rhymes with Horace.

24176 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 5, #399 of 751 🔗

Anybody seeing this from Ireland?

1000 scientists in Ireland want to suppress Covid-19 to zero. They want to co-operate with UK and the say contact trace, use of masks and sensible restrictions on travel. In fact they want to cocoon off these two islands from the rest of the world like New Zealand.

24178 ▶▶ IanE, replying to swedenborg, 7, #400 of 751 🔗

Jeepers, the loons are out in force!

24224 ▶▶ guy153, replying to swedenborg, #401 of 751 🔗

Good luck with the hard border they’re going to need with Northern Ireland.

24231 ▶▶ Peter Thompson, replying to swedenborg, 1, #402 of 751 🔗

The eradication of Covid19 from New Zealand is a result of isolated geography and the arrival in peak summer. Australia has had a similar result but because it has a conservative PM , and a lax lockdown has not had mass media approval .

I suspect those scientists calling for isolation would seek exemptions for the thousand or so migrants arriving on our shores courtesy of the French navy and British border ” control” .

They probably would also approve of the non socially distanced demonstrations at the weekend as that is a ” health emergency”

24262 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to swedenborg, 1, #403 of 751 🔗

They did it with snakes 🙂

24180 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 3, #404 of 751 🔗

Latest from India. New serosurvey 30% infected by Covid-19
“An official said that sites where infection size is 100 to 200 times higher are mainly in Mumbai, Pune, Delhi, Ahmedabad and Indore”
I wonder how many million cases need to be added to Worldometer!

24223 ▶▶ guy153, replying to swedenborg, 3, #405 of 751 🔗

Very interesting. This is more confirmation of the low final equilibrium values of seroprevalence (meaning that 10% to 20% depending on the area very likely represents fully cooked, epidemic over).

24193 kh1485, replying to kh1485, 31, #406 of 751 🔗

Here in Royston Vasey (thanks Karate56), we have … bunting, so everything is going to be OhhKay (said in the manner of the brilliant Andrew Lawrence’s Johnny Smugface). Our very own Nicki Sturgeon (aka rainbow-bag toting chairperson of the BID), is busily hurrying around instructing business owners to tidy up the weeds outside their shops. Though some of us just do it anyway without being told and without feeling the need to post stupid photos on whatever cretinish WhatsApp group they have decided to set up this week.

As I look out on the wasteland that is my business, I am deciding what kind of house rules to implement. Here’s my first draft:

  • No mask-wearers
  • Any swervers get ejected by ‘The Management’
  • Double charges for those who leap out of the way of the card machine when a member of staff attempts to input bill amount
  • No admittance to those ostentatiously using their sleeve to open the door
  • Those using anti-bac gel, ejected
  • Those leaving their filthy disease-ridden anti-bac wipes, banned for all eternity
  • Anyone uttering the following “it’s the new normal; we’re all in this together’ stay safe; what can you do?; has lockdown affected you?” refused admittance

  • And: Any MP

Finally, those welcome are: Lockdown Sceptics (obvs) and those who treat me like a human being and not a disease-ridden pariah.

24214 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to kh1485, 3, #407 of 751 🔗

Don’t forget gloves as well.

24233 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Bart Simpson, 5, #408 of 751 🔗

Thanks Bart, work in progress at the moment so welcome any suggestions! Just had a lovely chat with a new (hopefully regular) customer. Italian guy who has spent years in Brazil and US – really refreshing to speak with someone who doesn’t buy into all this crap!

24267 ▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to kh1485, 2, #409 of 751 🔗

You’re welcome and hopefully I can check out your business when this is over and we can be out and about minus the antisocial distancing and mask nonsense.

24293 ▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Bart Simpson, 6, #410 of 751 🔗

I hope so too! I am thinking of diversifying into some sort of coffee/therapy shop. The number of people who come in and vent while waiting for their takeaway is increasing. I think we are getting known for our lockdown scepticism!

24322 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to kh1485, 2, #411 of 751 🔗

I get the feeling there is already a swathe of people getting fed up with all of this and are worried about what will happen to their jobs and future.

24424 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Bart Simpson, 1, #412 of 751 🔗

Oh yes. Apart from a few swervers, today’s been encouraging. I think I said before that it’s almost as though people are looking for ‘permission’ to cock a snook at all this. And … a lot of punters using cash.

24628 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to kh1485, 2, #413 of 751 🔗

That’s good news. I think we’re slowly but surely seeing a lot of little actions of civil disobedience – which should be encouraged.

24237 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to kh1485, #414 of 751 🔗

Sorry, Any MP *refused admittance*!

24323 ▶▶ OpenYourEyes, replying to kh1485, #415 of 751 🔗

Do we get discounts for licking each other 😉

24325 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to kh1485, 4, #416 of 751 🔗

Sorry, at the risk of gumming up LS with too many posts, another observation as this is really pissing me off:

A regular customer, quite happily risking life and limb to come into my shop and partake, has just visibly recoiled and flinched away from me as I passed her a drink and food (food that I have handled which she seems quite content to eat!). I mean, it may be because I look a wreck (that’s what having your ability to earn a living trashed does to you, thanks gov’t) but it’s really hacking me off.

New rule: Surcharge of 100% to all flinchers!

24194 Julian, replying to Julian, 6, #417 of 751 🔗

One of my many recent complaints to the BBC received a holding response yesterday, saying that they were taking longer than usual to respond (ha ha, they are always slow and never actually respond to the points made) because they had fewer staff than usual due to the pandemic.

Surely the BBC complaints department are able to work from home?

My firm works from home and since this thing started we have had only ONE person be off sick (and they had coronavirus!). We usually average at least a few people every week taking odd days.

So how is it that the BBC are short-handed?

What are others’ experiences?

24220 ▶▶ guy153, replying to Julian, 8, #418 of 751 🔗

Many people seem to be using COVID just as an excuse to be a bit crap about everything. Bit of a first world problem I know but the DT suspended giving out prizes for crosswords for the last three months or so. What’s that got to do with COVID?

24408 ▶▶▶ Paul, replying to guy153, 3, #419 of 751 🔗

I had five items of mail go missing and Royal Mail said they couldn’t try to trace them due to Covid 19 !.

24420 ▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Paul, 1, #420 of 751 🔗

My estate agent blamed his total mess-up (reducing no. of bedrooms on the on-line spec’ and making it sound instead like a glorified cubby-hole) on “the difficult times we are in” …

24630 ▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Paul, #421 of 751 🔗

Yep. My friend sent me a birthday card and was dismayed when I told her that I didn’t received it. Plus something I ordered at Amazon also disappeared but happily they refunded me the amount.

24295 ▶▶ sarnskeptic, replying to Julian, #422 of 751 🔗

I work in the public sector for a company that is loathed by the Beeb (for being government owned, work that one out) and we’ve had no difficulty transferring to home working. A bit of a lull for a few weeks, but since then it’s been nearly the usual speed.

Maybe Gary Lineker’s salary eats up all the spare laptop money – or knowing the public sector they’ll have a bespoke system that they use to respond to the complaints which can only be used on a computer connected to their network via a cable. Definitely won’t be off-the-shelf software.

24355 ▶▶ John P, replying to Julian, #423 of 751 🔗

Complaining to the BBC is a complete waste of time.

24561 ▶▶ Bella, replying to Julian, #424 of 751 🔗

I’m trying to get my mother’s licence fee sorted (I’m dumping mine.) Every time I send an email I get an automatic reply saying they’ll get back in 3-5 working days. Ten weeks and I still haven’t heard. They’ll probably want her to do jail time when they find out she doesn’t have a licence. And she’s over eighty.

24631 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Bella, #425 of 751 🔗

Cancel your direct debit – that’s what many people have been doing.

24198 Victoria, replying to Victoria, 2, #426 of 751 🔗

DT headline: ‘Could measles shot reduce deadly inflammation in coronavirus patients? Scientists are testing MMR vaccines to prevent sepsis that kills many Covid-19 sufferers.’

What is wrong with these people as there already is an effective protocol?

Dr Marik’s sepsis protocol works but sadly not used by most hospitals around the world and definitely not by the NHS. Why not? It can prevent deaths and disfigurement (just picture babies and toddlers losing limbs from sepsis).

The Metabolic Resuscitation Protocol (HAT)

  • H ydrocortisone
  • A scorbic Acid (IV Vitamin C)
  • T hiamin (Vitamin B1)


24246 ▶▶ Sceptique, replying to Victoria, 4, #427 of 751 🔗

Too cheap and effective. Would never get approved by the BMA.

24303 ▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to Victoria, 4, #428 of 751 🔗

If the NHS was fit for purpose we would not be in this mess.

24200 wendyk, replying to wendyk, 6, #429 of 751 🔗

Here is a SOD episode: Stupidity Of the Day : on my way into the supermarket, I passed an elderly bloke whose head was entirely encased in black -a kind of Covid -purdah.

Black cap pulled right down and met by a voluminous black mask which swathed the nose, mouth,lower jaw and left a minuscule gap below the head gear.

Disconcerting for the more angst-ridden members of the public, and , if he’d been younger, he would have resembled a bank robber.

An ensuing conversation with an acquaintance in the shop about the need to get out of this asap and a briefly critical comment on the weekend’s noisy protests, drew disapproving glances from the young seasonal workers stacking the shelves, who were within earshot.

My interlocutor said, no, the ‘R’ number might well rise and that we must be patient and wait for She Who Must Be Obeyed to announce phase 2.

We then discussed the plight of another acquaintance’s son, recently made redundant, but still she said that ‘it’ could flare up again at any time.

We did agree on the double standards pertaining to recent protests, however.

24222 ▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to wendyk, 3, #430 of 751 🔗

Yet again as with Brexit and the Leave v. Remain voters there is a distinct split between the pro Lockdowners and anti lockdowners. It would be interesting to learn if the anti lockdowners also voted for Brexit. The risk takers v. the stay home keep safe snowflakes.

24228 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to Bella Donna, 3, #431 of 751 🔗

I think that the guardian would tell you that you’re right and that there’s a big overlap. They would also tell you that sceptics are in fact just a lunatic fringe subset of the lunatic leavers. Reading comments on here, I would guess it seems to be about 70/30 leave/remain.

24245 ▶▶▶ Sceptique, replying to Bella Donna, 2, #432 of 751 🔗

According to this MORI poll of 2250 people conducted by King’s College, anti Lockdowners are more likely to be younger males under 55, and Lockdowners Brexit voting conservatives over 55. As the population is skewed towards older people and the most in the UK are Lockdowners, I guess this makes sense -although it is surprising. I thought it would be the other way around. https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-which-are-you-britons-are-accepting-suffering-or-resisting-lockdown-11979288

24264 ▶▶▶ Snake Oil Pussy, replying to Bella Donna, #433 of 751 🔗

Lockdown = Hard Brexit = Close the borders and end freedom of movement = Everyone must do what the majority wants, no matter how cruel that is to some people.
Anti lockdown = Soft Brexit (there is no longer a Remain option) = Keep open borders and free movement = People should be free to do what they want.

24268 ▶▶▶ ambwozere, replying to Bella Donna, 6, #434 of 751 🔗

I voted leave and am a sceptic on this lockdown/covid-19. All the people on my Facebook who voted remain are very very pro lockdown.

24331 ▶▶▶▶ Peter Thompson, replying to ambwozere, 2, #435 of 751 🔗

All the ardent remainers I know, mostly on public service incomes are extreme paranoid supporters of lockdown

24335 ▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to ambwozere, 2, #436 of 751 🔗

not me.

I voted remain, though I really couldn’t care less these days!

24277 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Bella Donna, 8, #437 of 751 🔗

There may well be overlaps with Leave vs Remain and Left vs Right. Certainly with respect to the economics of it, the Left seem keener on using Magic Money Trees to solve problems.

I think there are people who simply don’t spend much time worrying about minor things in life, who love life and want to live it, who have a natural propensity to accept risk, whom the scare tactics have not affected.

And there are people who naturally distrust governments, who are able to apply rational thinking to situations that may evoke strong emotions, and who are realistic enough to realise that saving lives at all costs is insane and immoral, who just cannot see how the actions taken can be justified.

Obviously these two groups overlap.

And then there are those who emote rather than reason, who desperately want the world to be perfect and want to play their part in it.

And then there are those who are apathetic, who believe what they are told.

And there are those who are genuinely scared.

I think the most damage has been done by those who emote rather than reason, as many of these people are in positions of power and influence, and they ought to have the intellectual capacity to think beyond simplistic reactions to a new virus.

24334 ▶▶▶ John P, replying to Bella Donna, #438 of 751 🔗


24215 Bella Donna, replying to Bella Donna, 11, #439 of 751 🔗

According to the DE they’re now planning to topple Rhodes statue. Will our lefty leaning fingernail painting hip bumping numpties called Police actually do what we pay them to do and protect is from these anarchists?

24240 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Bella Donna, 2, #440 of 751 🔗

I like to think there are still plenty of rank and file officers who’d love to do just that, but their carefully selected bosses won’t let them, either because they don’t believe they should or they are afraid of getting sacked by their political masters.

24252 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Bella Donna, 7, #441 of 751 🔗

“they’re now planning to topple Rhodes statue”

If one of them got crushed underneath it – or preferably a few of them – would they then sue Oxford University? And would Oxford go down on one knee and beg forgiveness and pay them millions of pounds? In this day and age, I expect they would.

24321 ▶▶ OpenYourEyes, replying to Bella Donna, #442 of 751 🔗

I hope not. Politics makes for strange bedfellows and I endorse anyone breaking social distancing for any reason. All the damage taken and given in these protests is collateral damage in preparation for when it’s our time.

24327 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to OpenYourEyes, 4, #443 of 751 🔗

Politics does make for strange bedfellows but at the risk of getting into another BLM-related argument I feel their supporters and their case is irrational and incompatible with the way most people on this forum would like to see the world run. But who am I to speak for the others? Just can’t honestly consider hardline BLM-supporters even temporary allies.

Obviously I think the Coronavirus Act should be repealed immediately and am totally against any peaceful political protest being stopped, however much I disagree with it.

We’ve been badly served by our government and they have been a disgrace, but I think we need to concentrate on persuading our fellow citizens of the wrongness of the “new normal” road we are on, as this is the only way we’re going to get out of this.

24399 ▶▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Julian, 1, #444 of 751 🔗

Read this – not exactly what the idiots on TV are saying is it?


One bit towards the bottom and I have no idea what it means except famillies are to end and everyone is to be queer :

We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.
We foster a queer‐affirming network. When we gather, we do so with the intention of freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking, or rather, the belief that all in the world are heterosexual (unless s/he or they disclose otherwise).

24409 ▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Julian, 2, #445 of 751 🔗

Well many things are indeed more important than covid 19, but the overreaction to it is in my view the most urgent matter to deal with as it is utter madness. I agree social distancing is madness, and hypocrisy is rife.

I guess it depends on your view of what “far right” is. I don’t think I am, but maybe you would. I am really a liberal, I think anyway. I just think identity politics leads to bad outcomes.

I think anyone should be welcome to express any opinion they want here, and ignore others or argue as they see fit. I don’t see it has become a “far right” hunting ground. You have strong views and express them, quite rightly, and so do others. Most posts here are still “on topic” even if your definition of that is we should only talk about covid 19, which I think is too restrictive.

I like to think I try to see the other person’s point of view, and to keep it civil, but these are subjects on which most of us have strong feelings one way or the other.

I am not keen on labels like “snowflake”, or “Tory chancer”. Possibly I am both. A lot of us are a bit snowflaky probably – isn’t that just the natural progression of things as prosperity and peace increase?

I don’t think this a left-right thing other than the left (not all of them, but some) seem to believe in printing money and I can’t see how that’s going to work, and I personally don’t see a connection with Brexit.

Anyway, what do YOU think got us into this mess and how do YOU think we should go about getting out of it?

24336 ▶▶ Splendid Acres, replying to Bella Donna, 5, #446 of 751 🔗

The reason Edward Colson had a statue was that he funded schools, alms houses and hospitals. So, one could argue, all who benefitted from health care and education funded by the man were indirectly complicit in the trading of people.

Today, we are reliant on batteries to power our mobile devices. The cobalt required mined in appalling, abusive circumstances in the developing world, frequently involving child labour. It is also no secret that child labour and bondage (slavery to you and me) is rife in the cotton and textile industries.

It seems to me that we have a good number of ‘philanthropists’ in the obscenely rich brigade who made their fortunes in big tech and fashion.

Are we doubly complicit in using tech and mass produced textiles whilst also unopposed to ‘philanthropic’ input into our institutions? How does this work out when we give our child a mobile device to learn about the evils of slavery – or to buy ourselves a mass produced cotton shirt to protest the horrors of the same? Or how about our pension funds which invest in these companies, just as Edward Colson invested in the Royal African Company?

Same shit, different century.

24337 ▶▶▶ John P, replying to Splendid Acres, 1, #447 of 751 🔗

“It is also no secret that child labour and bondage (slavery to you and me) is rife in the cotton and textile industries.”

Link please. I’d like to read about it.

24366 ▶▶▶▶ Splendid Acres, replying to John P, 2, #448 of 751 🔗





Hi John, I hope these are helpful.

The only way forward, I believe, is full-on industrialisation and westernisation of these countries. I know that’s an imperialist attitude however, only an educated and free people can combat this for themselves.

Capitalism has massive pitfalls, but it’s the best we have.

24373 ▶▶▶▶▶ Splendid Acres, replying to Splendid Acres, 4, #449 of 751 🔗

As a post-script, and with apologies for being totally off topic for this forum, I am incensed that these young girls after ‘earning’ a dowry whilst under bondage then hand that (and themselves) over to their husbands whilst alleged feminists in the western world write tomes on the appropriation of hairstyles.

24510 ▶▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to Splendid Acres, #450 of 751 🔗

Thank you.

24217 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 14, #451 of 751 🔗

On a more amusing scale

“This. Is. Incredible.
surveyed 500 epidemiologists. 35% of them said they were NOT currently comfortable “bring(ing) in the mail without precautions.” 70% won’t send their kids to school. In other news, 35% of epidemiologists need to be fired now, and 70% by this fall.”

24219 ▶▶ Sceptique, replying to swedenborg, 3, #452 of 751 🔗

Has to be a joke. Maybe the survey was done using the same company that published that fake research in the Lancet 🙂

24232 ▶▶▶ swedenborg, replying to Sceptique, 1, #453 of 751 🔗

Unbelievable but it is not a joke.If you click in the link above you can read the original story “When 511 epidemiologists expect to fly,hug and 18 other everyday
things again by Sanger-Katz,Cain Miller,Bui 8th June 2020.It is not Lancet but New York Times!

24236 ▶▶▶▶ Sceptique, replying to swedenborg, 3, #454 of 751 🔗

Oh well, it explains a lot if they are the ones giving government advice.

24229 ▶▶ 4096, replying to swedenborg, 7, #455 of 751 🔗

They’re trolling us, right? They can’t possibly be this stupid and unaware of what the data say, can they?”

-My thoughts exactly, on some days I really do feel like some sort of an alien – how is it possible for so many people to be so brainwashed?

24235 ▶▶ matt, replying to swedenborg, 2, #456 of 751 🔗

I would have thought that, even if you were sufficiently ill informed to think that the mail presents a clear and present danger to life, appropriate precautions could be summed up as: – bring mail into house
– open mail
– read mail
– file, or dispose of correspondence, as appropriate, including disposing of packaging and envelopes
– wash hands
– wipe down surface on which mail was placed during opening process, if you really must

24273 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to matt, 1, #457 of 751 🔗

Ih, all those love letters I devoured in my romantic youth…

24248 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to swedenborg, 5, #458 of 751 🔗

These are epidemiologists (how many does the world need?!).

I think we have clearly seen through these last few months that such people don’t really talk to the immunologists and vice versa. Epidemiologists are almost universally at the level of thinking in terms of ‘SIR’ – it is a prerequisite of defining ‘R0’ and ‘R’. (Without ‘R0’ and ‘R’ to talk about, you can’t be an epidemiologist).

And then, remarkably, they believe their own flawed, unrealistic, simplistic, SIR model.

24279 ▶▶ Sam C, replying to swedenborg, #459 of 751 🔗

One wonders if they are fearful of something in the mail but not Cv19? Many of these folks have years of looking over their shoulders, wondering if someone impacted by lockdown policy and scaremongering are out for retribution. Unlike the politicians few of these will have protection. I would be worried by that…

24255 matt, replying to matt, 7, #460 of 751 🔗

I just thought to go and have a look at the NHS stats for the deaths announced yesterday.

Of the 59 deaths* in England announced on 8th June, 10 of them – 16.9% – in fact occurred up to and including 1st June. 6 of the total were under the age of 60 (oddly, 5 of the 6 occurred on the same day)

Gosh, you know, I’m so grateful to those heroes in the NHS who are working tirelessly to care for the people who are being stuck down in the prime of their lives by this appalling, deadly disease. It must be so hard for them not to have capacity to look after all the thousands of people who are dying of other, less serious conditions.

*I know that 55 deaths total were actually announced. I’m assuming the difference is because there were no press briefings over the weekend, so it’s the accumulation of a number of days’ announcements (?)

24332 ▶▶ John P, replying to matt, #461 of 751 🔗

matt, with respect, I appreciate that the third paragraph is sarcasm, but some may read it as genuine opinion.

I think it best to stick to the facts as they are. There’s more than enough confusion out there.

24341 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to John P, 1, #462 of 751 🔗

Fair point.

24286 swedenborg, 1, #463 of 751 🔗

Some warning about two articles around about Bergamo Italy having 50% sero positive rate for Covid-19.


One has commented
“Fake news from Lombardy, where “half of people” tested (+) for antibodies. They did *not* do a seroprevalence study. They offered tests for a highly selected population: those under quarantine showing coronavirus symptoms and those with mild symptoms.”

I am not sure what is true but it seems a bit strange that in New York city, one of the world’s hot spot the seroprevalence was in the range of 20-25%. I think the above comment is probably more correct.

24290 Moomin, replying to Moomin, #464 of 751 🔗


Can anyone make sense of this?:


What does it mean?

24312 ▶▶ 4096, replying to Moomin, 22, #465 of 751 🔗

It means that the world has decided to destroy the lives of possibly millions of young and healthy people, indirectly kill possibly hundreds of thousands by missed cancer screening, paused treatments, by making people too scared to go to a hospital to seek treatment, suicides, increased levels of poverty in the developing world, possibly famine etc. and inflict untold suffering on millions more just so some very sick people with low quality of life can have their existence extended by a few months.
That’s some really outstanding risk management guys.

But at least all psychology and sociology textbooks on mass panic and psychosis will have some cool new chapters in a few years.

24326 ▶▶▶ Moomin, replying to 4096, #466 of 751 🔗

Hi, I know that, but what do the figures mean? Are they effectively saying that only about 1300 people have actually died from Covid19 in three months? I don’t understand the figures.

24329 ▶▶▶▶ Edna, replying to Moomin, #467 of 751 🔗

That’s how I understood it. Also, there’s a comment a little below that shows all deaths from this year, to put those numbers into perspective.

24342 ▶▶▶▶▶ Moomin, replying to Edna, 4, #468 of 751 🔗

Thanks Edna and John. Sorry, I’m just trying to get my head around this! I know the whole thing has been wrong from the start and that we’ve been duped, but is NHS England actually saying here, despite the fact that Covid has been included on death certs even when it hasn’t been the cause of death, that of the 40000 or so deaths that we’ve been told were Covid deaths, only 1300 had Covid19 as the primary cause without comorbidities? Is that correct? If so, why isn’t someone running with this story?

24344 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to Moomin, #469 of 751 🔗

Often on death certificates there are several contributory causes of death recorded.

If a person is merely suspected of having covid19 when they died it will be recorded as one of those possible causes.

In only 1300 cases is covid19 recorded alone on a certificate.

Of course, that doesn’t mean it definitely was the cause of death as I have implied!

24351 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Edna, replying to Moomin, 4, #470 of 751 🔗

I can’t begin to imagine why this isn’t headline news everywhere Kevin. I can perhaps understand the government not making much of it because it shows them for the murderous cretins they are, but why the media aren’t howling with rage over it is beyond me!

24353 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to Edna, 2, #471 of 751 🔗

The media caused the panic to begin with.

24356 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Moomin, 3, #472 of 751 🔗

There are 3 parts to a death certificate. The first part records the thing that actually caused the death; the second records other factors known to be present that directly contributed to the death; the third part records other things the deceased was known to have, but which did not directly contribute to the death.

The current reporting rules stipulate that the death is included in the numbers, wherever Covid appears on the certificate.

If Covid appears in part 1, the patient died “of” Covid.

If Covid appears in part 2, the deceased died “with” Covid, not of it, but it will be true to varying degrees to say that Covid made a meaningful difference to the timing or likelihood of their death.

If Covid appears in part 3, the deceased died “with” Covid and this was probably coincidence.

I’m not aware that we have access to detail about how many of the deaths have Covid on part 1, part 2 or part 3.

Because we know that the disease overwhelmingly kills the infirm and people with certain other chronic diseases, it’s not surprising that there should be very few cases where It is the only thing on the certificate.

24360 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to matt, 1, #473 of 751 🔗

Why am I struggling to get this through:

“If Covid appears in part 1, the patient died “of” Covid.”


24375 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to John P, 3, #474 of 751 🔗

No, but usually. Doctors have not abruptly gone insane en masse. I’m sure there are cases when the death of an elderly person, with no particular history to explain the death, will have been marked down as Clovis out of laziness, especially because the rules on how recently the doctor needs to have seen that patient will have been relaxed. There will also be others where the patient had both a significant heart condition (for example) and a bad dose of the disease and it will be a judgement call which of the two actually killed the patient, and that judgement won’t always be right. I sure there are other circumstances too.

The requirement to enter Covid on the death certificate in either part 2 or part if its either tested or suspected is enough to explain an artificial inflation of the death figures. There’s no need to assume that significant numbers of the part 1 entries is just made up as well.

24369 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to matt, #475 of 751 🔗

This is an excerpt from my grandmother’s death certificate. She died on 20th June 2002 in England. She was 83:

8. Cause of death

I (a) Myocardial Infarction
(b) Multi-Organ Failure
(c) Sepsis and Faecal Peritonitis

II Hypertension

24330 ▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to Moomin, 2, #476 of 751 🔗

They are saying that only 1300 death certificates have cause of death recorded as covid19 and nothing else.

24359 ▶▶▶▶▶ Dinger, replying to John P, 6, #477 of 751 🔗

And the rest had co-morbidities which meant they would likely die soon anyway but that Covid might have hastened their demise. Sorry to be so blunt but we’ve f*cked everything up for a virus that killed 1300 healthy people

24365 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to Dinger, 2, #478 of 751 🔗

Maybe killed 1300 healthy people. You are assuming that these causes of death are accurate, but they have relaxed the rules, so you don’t know for sure if these were healthy people.

They may have had undiagnosed underlying conditions.

Or the diagnosis of covid 19 may have been incorrect.

24352 ▶▶▶▶ IanE, replying to Moomin, 1, #479 of 751 🔗

Rather that only those numbers can be definitively stated to have died FROM covid. As for those others who died WITH covid the case must remain unclear.

24354 ▶▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to IanE, 1, #480 of 751 🔗

Not necessarily Ian! Covid only has to be suspected to be recorded.

24725 ▶▶▶ djaustin, replying to 4096, #481 of 751 🔗

It’s actually not important as to the precise cause. The simple facts are bad enough. During April and May, the death rate for anyone over 65 was effectively double the value in the past ten years. For those over 85 it was up to three times higher. These are the facts. They were not dying from cardiovascular diseases either as that has been ruled out. They were not dying of road accidents or slips and falls in the shower either.

Of the 63.000 excess deaths, 90% are 65+ and 50% are 85+. Its churlish to think that a new pathogen introduced into a naive population has not driven the largest increase in death rate in this population since 1918.

24296 Jen, replying to Jen, 8, #482 of 751 🔗

What about we all arrange a lockdown Christmas party to show our gratitude and support for Toby for getting us through this dreary year?
I’ve no idea how to go about it, but it would be nice to see you all in person when we are ‘allowed’ and it’s ‘safe’.

24405 ▶▶ ianp, replying to Jen, #483 of 751 🔗

Unless mass gatherings are still banned… I wouldn’t put it past any of the cretins.

24297 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 8, #484 of 751 🔗

More madness from China. Remember the 9 million queuing to have the Covid-19 PCR test from their nose? About 200 were found to be asymptomatic carriers and everybody discussed that was an incredible figure, as these 200 could as likely be false positive cases considering the specificity of the tests used. The madness continues. They have now checked over a thousand contacts of these asymptomatic cases and reassuringly found no evidence of infection. No spread from asymptomatic cases. Another glorious scientific discovery for the WHO?
What is this about? Must be selling these incredible PCR tests to the rest of the world so we would buy them and spend the rest of our efforts to mass test everyone for the eternity.

24298 ▶▶ matt, replying to swedenborg, #485 of 751 🔗


Do you have a link, Swedenborg?

24304 ▶▶▶ swedenborg, replying to matt, 2, #486 of 751 🔗

It identified just 300 positive cases, all of whom had no symptoms. The city found no infections among 1,174 close contacts of the people who tested positive, suggesting they were not spreading the virus easily to others.

24307 ▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to swedenborg, 4, #487 of 751 🔗

Thank you.

So… am I right in thinking that when the WHO says that the virus being passed on by people who are a symptomatic is “very rare” that’s actually code for “we can’t find any evidence that it’s ever actually happened, but we also can’t prove that it definitely never has”?

24318 ▶▶▶▶▶ swedenborg, replying to matt, 1, #488 of 751 🔗

This is an important view, if we believe asymptomatic spread is very rare and that super spreaders are much more common. In that case we should end lockdown, facemasks and concentrate on symptomatic and isolate. I can understand that is an attractive position.

But there are some flaws in the denial of asymptomatic spread. How can you explain that in prisons in the US you could have 90% asymptomatic carriage among prisoners? Could that always be explained by super spreader at large? Also the high rates of asymptomatic carriage in miners in Poland, homeless Boston, meat packing plants etc.
Therefore, I have strong doubts about the WHO suddenly switching to asymptomatic spread is rare and contradicting earlier statements (their statements seem to have survival rate of 10 days presently).
But you can have the same conclusion that facemasks, social distancing, lockdown is total useless in believing that asymptomatic spread is not uncommon, and instead thinking that it is the most common form of transmission perhaps 90 % of all transmission. That is what Prof Giesecke thinks is most likely. All our efforts are completely futile to stop this virus.
But New Zealand can be lucky, if this Covid-19 virus disappears like previous SARS. They can then boast how effective their lockdown has been. But if the virus reappears in their winter period, good luck with cocooning off your country from a common cold virus.

24338 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to swedenborg, #489 of 751 🔗

I do not think that lack of asymptomatic spread improves the argument against lockdown, face masks, social distancing etc – to me, it was fairly clear that they were all wrong, even when either it seemed likely that asymptomatic spread was common, or the jury was out. I do think that it either completely destroys or at least heavily damages the arguments _for_ those things, however. You make some interesting points though.

Another question: you made the point yesterday that the apparent global spread of the virus was significantly lower than it would be with e.g. an influenza pandemic. Given that, in several countries (including UK, US, Sweden among them) the number of deaths has been over a much shorter period of time than the normal seasonal flu would take to do the same, it seems to me that SARS2 must be either 1) significantly more infectious or 2) significantly more deadly than the flu. I can’t quite square in my head how it could be neither, given the numbers and the time period. The only other option could be that the the numbers are being significantly over reported. Any thoughts?

24350 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to matt, 1, #490 of 751 🔗

Significantly over reported.
Plus lockdown collateral deaths codified as covid = even more significantly over-reported.
Generous estimate of genuine covid cases (according to Italy’s revisions and other estimates of how many death certificates are being falsified in American states) – 10-15%
Ours are looking even more conservative.

24363 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Farinances, #491 of 751 🔗

Looking at the excess deaths compared to the Covid deaths, I’m not so sure. I’ve no doubt that there is some over reporting, but most of the deaths caused by lockdown are going to be longer term than this, yet the excess death numbers are not far off the Clovis death numbers.

24364 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to matt, 5, #492 of 751 🔗

Covid, not Clovis. Autocorrect has decided I’m talking about an early medieval French king.

24371 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to matt, 1, #493 of 751 🔗

Dunno what it is about this site that promotes typos but we all seem to do it
(I do it simply because I can’t type on this f—Ing phone)

24367 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to matt, 1, #494 of 751 🔗

But what if those covid deaths are simply lockdown deaths claimed to be covid deaths? You’re right that most lockdown deaths will be longer term, but there’s no doubt that it will have caused a considerable amount of excess death in the short term too (heart attacks, suicide etc.)

24370 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Farinances, 1, #495 of 751 🔗

(What I mean by ‘lockdown death’ besides a heart attack/suicide etc. is most likely to be a neglected old person in a care home who would not have died otherwise, at least for a few years, but who was virtually abandoned under the circs and died despite not having, or even having, covid.

Even the heart attacks and suicides could be registered as covid if the person is tested just before death or even ‘suspected’ of having it before death, like the guy with the aortic

24380 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Farinances, 1, #496 of 751 🔗

Yes…. but.

I’m just not convinced that doctors all over the country are sitting around going “oh, dead is he? Must be Covid.”

Also, there’s no need to think that this is happening in order to explain that the deaths are going over reported, because the way that the death certificate is laid out and the requirements for how to complete it, combined with the way they’ve chosen to report the numbers mean that they _definitely are_.

When I said above that the excess death numbers are too similar to the Covid numbers to suggest it’s not actually killing lots of people, it’s also true that they’re suspiciously similar. Again, we know that it kills people who are sick already. This would suggest that a fair proportion of the people who die of/with it won’t be excess, because they would have died anyway.

24438 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to matt, #497 of 751 🔗

True, true. I agree that the majority of covid deaths – ‘with’ and ‘from’ – are of people who would have died around the same time anyway. The excess though…. to me it’s not big enough if covid was the deadly plague, but it’s also not small enough to be actually due to covid (because the IFR is so low)… if you get me. There’s something else going on here. the most logical thing to be going on is over-reporting, for several different reasons (one of three causes, contributory factor, ‘suspected’ covid – all will have been added to the stats despite being ‘with’ rather than ‘of’ denonimators).- PLUS probably lockdown collateral deaths classified as covid (also for above ‘with’ rather than ‘of’ reasons, but the predominant cause was something probably caused by lockdown like a heart attack that wasn’t treated in hospital quickly enough or a cancer death due to suspension of treatment etc.).

24641 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to matt, #498 of 751 🔗

Good question. If actual exposure in the UK is 20% (around double the seroprevalence), and the IFR around 0.1% (half the seroprevalence-based IFR) then we should have about 12000 deaths. But we have 3.5x that many.

We know that a lot of those deaths resulted from nosocomial infections (about half are in care homes). So it looks like what has happened is the spread has been much more extensive and very rapid in those environments.

So why doesn’t this happen every year with flu? One reason is that the people who work in those places all get flu jabs. While not perfect they will reduce the spread.

Another possibility is that the IFR among the elderly and comorbid population is actually quite a bit higher than flu. It’s tempting to think flu is somehow more “potent” because it can also kill younger people. But it doesn’t really work like that. Covid has two ways of killing people: ARDS and thrombosis. The latter may be linked with downregulation of the ACE2 receptor that it binds to, and makes people with any sort of vascular disease (which is lots of old people) especially vulnerable. I don’t know the IFR for each age band for flu but it would be interesting to compare these.

24379 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Anthony, replying to swedenborg, 2, #499 of 751 🔗

Maybe, on further analysis, it would become apparent that some of the spreaders in the prisons, meat packing factories etc were actually symptomatic, it’s just that they were very mild or didn’t include some of the ‘classic’ Covid symptoms.

It’s also interesting to note that the PCR tests are only recommended after the onset of symptoms as the viral load may be too low for detection when asymptomatic, this suggest that risk of transmission lower at this stage.

24442 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Anthony, #500 of 751 🔗

That’s a good point. They will never how many people were ‘mildly symptomatic’ and how many ‘asymptomatic’ anyway – simply because definitions of such are subjective.

24612 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to swedenborg, #501 of 751 🔗

In a prison a small number of symptomatic cases can give the virus to almost everyone else.

I’m sure asymptomatic spread is possible but I would expect it to be at low levels based on experiments contact-tracing asymptomatic children much earlier in the epidemic.

24609 ▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to swedenborg, 1, #502 of 751 🔗

If they tested 10m and only found 300 cases one of the reasons none of the contacts got infected is the high level of herd immunity in Wuhan. So it’s not the best controlled experiment.

24691 ▶▶▶▶▶ swedenborg, replying to guy153, 1, #503 of 751 🔗

If you test 10 million and you get 300 pos they are most likely to be false positive. Nobody can have 100 % specificity even 99.99997% seems suspicious even more so from the Chinese.So this testing was a farce and then testing for those so called contacts even more so.

24706 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to swedenborg, #504 of 751 🔗

Yes good point. Probably explains why they were asymptomatic…

Weird that so few did test positive. I wouldn’t expect the virus to die out completely like that but to drop to maybe 0.05% or 0.1% or so and basically stay there for the next few thousand years.

24315 Snarly, replying to Snarly, 6, #505 of 751 🔗

Digital Immunity Passports are Coming!

h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOnk6BR5dSw

Be afraid. Be very afraid!

24316 ▶▶ Snarly, replying to Snarly, #506 of 751 🔗

Sorry, messed up the link, try again:


24328 ▶▶ John P, replying to Snarly, -1, #507 of 751 🔗

Is that last bit sarcasm or fearmongering?

24377 ▶▶ Sceptique, replying to Snarly, 2, #508 of 751 🔗

‘Covi Pass, the People’s Passport.’ . Has a nice ring to it, almost as if an ad agency came up with it. A slick surveillance tool.

24423 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Sceptique, 1, #509 of 751 🔗

Moolti-pass. I knew that Fifth Element film was programming us for something …

24861 ▶▶▶▶ ianp, replying to JohnB, #510 of 751 🔗

ha… probably the last decent film Luc Besson made

24319 Olive, replying to Olive, 17, #511 of 751 🔗

What new nightmare is this – that schools not even going to try and work out how to get back before September AT THE EARLIEST?! The government has shirked its most important role – that of protecting the country’s precious future. I have been angry for three months now, but this is seriously another level of incredulity. What about ANY effort by the Cabinet to take responsibility? To ignore all the evidence presented that schools are safe for kids; to dismiss the utter disaster that nearly half a year from school means to so many.
It has honestly taken nearly four hours for me to calm down enough to type this. And how can the unions even countenance a statement that reads that they are relieved not have to even try to work around the practical possibilities? Children do not need to socially distance by 2 metres. They really don’t. All union members and the government should be utterly ashamed of themselves that they have given up. They have tried to enforce bureaucracy that would never work and now talks have stopped they are satisfied that this seems to be enough and that’s the end of the discussion. They have not given any proper thought at the bigger picture of what kids are missing out on now and that will permanently affect their lives forever. It is criminal behaviour. It is also utterly avoidable with common sense and an understanding of the patterns of the coronavirus transmission in schools. I will never forgive the government that I voted for for its cowardly dereliction of its duty. It has introduced arbitrary rules until now based on dubious evidence. It is time to introduce enforceable legislation to force schools to open today for all pupils, and to relax the ridiculous bureaucracy it is conjuring up.
And why are parents not protesting vigorously about this? It cannot be down entirely to fear of catching the virus? Are we all a nation of cowards even when the emperors clothes have well and truly been seen through?

24425 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Olive, 2, #512 of 751 🔗

Funny thing – I have even forgotten the tune of Land of Hope and Glory.

24446 ▶▶ Tarquin Von Starheim, replying to Olive, 11, #513 of 751 🔗

It is just utterly, mind-blowingly criminally insane isn’t it. I think there is still steam coming out of my ears as a result of reading this news this morning.
My son has returned to year 6 but it is a horrible dystopian world where they are restricted to a ‘pod’ (their description not mine) of 15 who are kept in the same classroom all day long doing worksheets and are barked at if they get within 2 metres of each other by a sweating teacher in a mask and plastic visor. Yesterday he was forced to spend an hour on some kind of government mandated worksheet about what a virus is and how it can be spread by droplets in the air. Honestly he told me it was so basic that it was like something he might have done in pre-school. They are allowed outside for a few breaks but must stick to a taped off area for their pod and are forbidden from getting closer than 5 metres to a member of a different pod. They have been given cheese sandwiches and crisps for lunch for 6 days in a row now (not allowed to take in their own packed lunches for hygiene reasons). His hands are red raw and painful because they are being forced to wash them literally every hour, we have to massage in my wife’s expensive hand cream every evening.
Meanwhile my daughter who is in year 7 is going stir crazy at home, deprived of social contact with her friends at the very point she is entering adolescence and the confusing changes that entails.
And then I read a post elsewhere here that Saxony has re-opened schools fully for several weeks with few restrictions and had single digit new cases yesterday.

24790 ▶▶▶ Michel, replying to Tarquin Von Starheim, #514 of 751 🔗

What a nightmare!

24620 ▶▶ Bella, replying to Olive, #515 of 751 🔗

He wasn’t wearing any clothes to see through. 🙂

24345 RDawg, replying to RDawg, 32, #516 of 751 🔗

Just popped into my local HSBC to pay a bill, and it was like something out of a zombie movie in a post-apocalyptic world. There was this very officious woman operating the doors, wearing a mask. She was shouting at people for entering without permission. Then when I was “allowed” to enter, she directed me to one of the social distancing stickers on the floor. As I was called forward, the teller sat behind a full glass security screen and was wearing one of those plastic head visors. Perhaps, just in case the virus managed to penetrate through the shatter proof security glass and one viral cell might land on her face.

What’s so ridiculous is the fact, that anyone can use the pen on the counter top (probably touched 100+ times a day) and I had to hand her cards from my wallet that she had no problem handling. The incredible sense of naivety around infection control is just bonkers. This is the most hysterical overreaction to a common cold/flu virus in the history of ever. When will somebody high up in government see some common sense? This still feels like I’m living in a movie and I will wake up from this long nightmare! God help us all 🙏🏼

24346 ▶▶ John P, replying to RDawg, 5, #517 of 751 🔗

I find it helps to have a complete break from it from time to time. If you can get away from it for a few hours then you may feel a bit better. i’m driving out into the countryside for a walk soon. Just sheep and a few cows to deal with.

24362 ▶▶▶ RDawg, replying to John P, 1, #518 of 751 🔗

Yes. I try to avoid it as much as possible. Sadly I had to go into the branch today – was no way of avoiding it.

24347 ▶▶ IanE, replying to RDawg, 11, #519 of 751 🔗

And the REALLY crazy thing is that, as covid retreats, so the response becomes more extreme! If this were a movie, I would laugh at how unbelievable it all is.

24376 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to IanE, 9, #520 of 751 🔗

It’s become a psychological crutch. Without it, the zombies would have to admit that there’s nothing to be afraid of and they ought to come back to life, which they evidently don’t wish to do.

24348 ▶▶ smileymiley, replying to RDawg, 5, #521 of 751 🔗

God help us all 🙏🏼

24383 ▶▶ Paul, replying to RDawg, 7, #522 of 751 🔗

I’ve got to go to my bank,but I keep putting it off,it’s just the same here as well.I’m not prepared to join a queue that stretches half way along the High Street for the pleasure of being treated as if I am unclean and contagious when I am graciously allowed into the branch.The collective insanity of this country increases every day.

24400 ▶▶ ianp, replying to RDawg, 3, #523 of 751 🔗

Simply laugh at the power hungry little hitlers, that’s what I do, they hate that. Although I have only recently been in the local Tesco express, and hardly anyone gives a shit there anymore, thankfully.

24445 ▶▶▶ RDawg, replying to ianp, #524 of 751 🔗

Same in mine. Nobody cares. Love it!

24407 ▶▶ Arkleston, replying to RDawg, #525 of 751 🔗

It’s depressing to see the number of Quislings mushroom up everywhere. Every generation has had them, but ours is like “No matter how much our government wants to suppress you, I want to go the extra mile and suck the joy out of life in my community”. They work for free, but seeing the results of their work is more than enough reward for them. That’s been the biggest eye opener for me in this pandemic.

24471 ▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to RDawg, 1, #526 of 751 🔗

I bet the banks are rueing the day they all unanimously decided they would rather be estate agents and removed all the security-glass fronted boxes which used to be in place in front of the cashiers. Making their useless businesses even more useless now that they are faced with public health hysteria. The happy clappy public fronting meet n greet and have a seat model is going to have to be rolled back. Of course, they would rather just close than go back to actually operating as banks.

What’s worse than a bank with an identity crisis?

24357 Farinances, replying to Farinances, 15, #527 of 751 🔗

Watching the lunchtime news with a bunch of order packers for a big clothes shop. They aren’t buying any of it – covid, BLM, any of it.
Interestingly, since 1pm covid has hardly even been mentioned. We’ve gone from racist statues to the London bridge terrorists to renewable power sources. Workers are convinced the media are now trying wind us down from covid hysteria by simply not talking about it.
Reading the Guardian guy’s scathing column yesterday, I’m apt to agree. (If the Guardian is allowing such open dissent, the Beeb can’t be long to follow).

24422 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Farinances, 4, #528 of 751 🔗

Simon Jenkins has always been one of the very few sane writers for the Guardian. I have always wondered how he can bear to feature amidst such lunatic companions.

24858 ▶▶ ianp, replying to Farinances, #529 of 751 🔗

Moving onto the fascist re-write history agenda now. If that has widespread support in this country then we are all screwed. I suspect and hope it does not.

24361 Gillian, replying to Gillian, 15, #530 of 751 🔗

Looks like the teaching unions and scaredy-cat parents have won out. No further year groups to return to English schools until September. Government confesses to “getting it wrong”. Further capitulation to pro-panic public “opinion” (or mass hysteria).

24419 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Gillian, 3, #531 of 751 🔗

Oh well, at least that is rather less indoctrination occurring.

24495 ▶▶ Nic, replying to Gillian, #532 of 751 🔗

Bet they dont come back in september nothing will have changed just kicking the can down the road a bit further!

24372 annie, replying to annie, 19, #533 of 751 🔗

I’ve started straw polling, mainly in shops:
‘Do you really believe in this social p distancing nonsense?’
Sometimes, if course, you get the dead fish eye and the ‘Oh yes I do so get away from me before you kill me’, but sometimes the eyes light up, a grin appears, and you’ve contributed to the fight-back.
Even with the brain-dead, it may at least rouse some doubts about the Universal Death.

24374 ▶▶ annie, replying to annie, 4, #534 of 751 🔗

PS. Sorry about the intrusive p. At least it’s preferable to endless q’s.

24416 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to annie, 5, #535 of 751 🔗

Well, to be fair, it is much harder nowadays to mind one’s p’s, what with all the closed toilets.

24658 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to annie, 1, #536 of 751 🔗

I think you’re right – I overheard two people bitching about the lack of toilets and how its a public health nuisance. One of them said that Hepatitis A will be a bigger problem than Covid 19.

To which I muttered to myself “Yeesssss!”

24686 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Bart Simpson, 1, #537 of 751 🔗

I’m gonna start pissing in the street with my SheWee when I go into town. We should all just squat and let rip wherever & whenever we like. If they keep treating us like animals we should start acting like them.

Bet the loos wouldn’t stay shut for long.

24381 Steve Hayes, replying to Steve Hayes, 19, #538 of 751 🔗

On Friday (5 June) the World Health Organisation reversed its position on wearing masks, recommending that the general population wear masks.

On Monday (8 June) the World Health Organisation reversed its position on asymptomatic transmission, saying that it is very rare.

If those without symptoms are not infecting others, there is no need for the general population to wear masks, or indeed, to isolate or observe social distancing. In fact, there is no need for the lockdowns. All that is necessary to control the spread of the disease is for those who have symptoms to stay at home until they are better (which is what everyone who is ill with an infectious disease should do anyway).

One has to wonder if these “experts” even listen to themselves?

24388 ▶▶ ambwozere, replying to Steve Hayes, 5, #539 of 751 🔗

Well let’s face it no expert lives in the real world so they probably believe everything they say.

24414 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Steve Hayes, 1, #540 of 751 🔗

Surely they spend their time listening to the Great Oracle, Wee Krankie?!

24514 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Steve Hayes, #541 of 751 🔗

It is a cunning strategy. They knew about asymptomatic but then did not want to give the game away, therefore supporting the wearing of masks first and then ‘admit’ asymptomatic.

24451 ▶▶ assoc, replying to Sarigan, 1, #543 of 751 🔗

Plus, surely, the galaxy

24460 ▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to Sarigan, 4, #544 of 751 🔗

I think everybody who hasn’t died ought to give Dr. Ferguson a big kiss and write a nice thank you letter to say how pleased we are that he was able to save all of our lives, and that he should be made king of the world forever because he is such a hero and he single-handedly saved our beloved NHS all on his own and it was such hard work and he must be absolutely knackered after doing so much for us, what a hero, have a chocolate Dr. Ferguson you are such a hero. Thanks. xxx

24521 ▶▶▶ Cruella, replying to Edgar Friendly, 3, #545 of 751 🔗

You forgot – We hope all the illicit sex was marvellous, you’re such a stud!

24384 Awkward Git, 18, #546 of 751 🔗

Had a bit of fun out day as well s pointing some people in the way of this website as a start into sceptic land a they had been feeling that they were the only ones who felt this way until we had a chat in a queue out shopping.

Anyway went to buy some new furniture and the young salesman comes across when we are about halfway round the store. Asks “have you sanitised your hands?”. We answer “yes” as the wife carries her own as some of the ones the shops use turn her hands red raw and itchy and ask him if he wants us to do it again.

He says that’s OK, I have to ask and as long you say yes that’s all I want to hear.

During chatting to him later he basically says the company knows it’s all crap, PPE is there if the staff want (none in evidence, none worn, staff would come close to chat, no sneeze screen etc either) and as long as they look like they are following “guidelines” and have the 2m marks on the floor and a few signs up they can do what they want.

Good on them.

24385 Snake Oil Pussy, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, #547 of 751 🔗

Has any country that has closed its schools and then reopened them actually fully reopened them to full capacity i.e. all children in school for a full day, and no un-natural distancing?

24393 ▶▶ matt, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, #548 of 751 🔗

There’s a post on today’s page somewhere from Swedenborg saying that Saxony (one of the German Lände) has done just that. I’d be surprised if they were alone.

24396 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, #549 of 751 🔗

Good question. More generally, very keen to have reports from other countries about how close “normal” their reopenings have been – all info to help our cause here.

Italy have less distancing than us, but lots of masks, from what I have heard.

24402 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, 1, #550 of 751 🔗

Yeah I think a few scandic countries like….Iceland and Finale maybe?

24412 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to Farinances, 2, #551 of 751 🔗

Finale? I like it: the end of the world really is nigh!

24430 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to IanE, 2, #552 of 751 🔗

Finland… the land of fat fingers 😉

24386 Tyneside Tigress, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 9, #553 of 751 🔗

A very scary experience – Gavin Williamson vs Rebecca Long-Bailey debating school closures (indefinitely?) in the House of Commons. Can we at least find some people with above average intellect to do this!

24387 ▶▶ ambwozere, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 5, #554 of 751 🔗

Come across some excellent comments in the Telegraph, loads of parents not happy about the schools being closed.


24406 ▶▶▶ FiFiTrixabelle, replying to ambwozere, 5, #555 of 751 🔗

The comments are well worth a read…and refreshing. People are losing their patience and calling this nonsense out.

24432 ▶▶▶ Lou, replying to ambwozere, 10, #556 of 751 🔗

Just read the comments and it’s clear that people are becoming increasingly frustrated with the school decision. As a parent I am beyond words!! This decision makes me so angry. I’ve already written to my MP about this and other lockdown issue to no avail not even bothered to reply !

24516 ▶▶▶▶ Cruella, replying to Lou, 3, #557 of 751 🔗

I tried that, the reply was very political. It would appear that the teachers unions and the Labour Party are trying to create some sort of opposition by pushing the government to comply with impossible measures which make opening schools an impossibility and consequently makes them look inept and indecisive or, if they overrule them, callous. This was the position my MP(Labour) laid out to me, he was not at all concerned with risk, the welfare of children disadvantaged or otherwise or anything real. Instead he maintained that his party supported the unions demands and that the government weren’t doing enough to protect people. He doesn’t have any children.
If the distancing measures don’t change, no schools will be able to open normally, not even in September. No school, willing or otherwise an facilitate this.
Watching my girls life being chucked under the bus for political point scoring has been so deeply saddening. There’s nothing I can do. It feels like the young are being sacrificed.

24464 ▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to ambwozere, 4, #558 of 751 🔗

Thanks for this. I was following the earlier Telegraph articles this morning – my husband posted on a couple of them. We both feel very strongly about this, even though our sons have left school, albeit both disrupted by events (first year university and A levels this summer). We were the first in our families to do A levels and attend university. For my part, I had very supportive parents, and I was lucky that grammar schools still existed (for the Catholic education system of the 1970s). My teachers were second to none in terms of ability and commitment. If only those teachers existed today in the state sector!

24477 ▶▶▶▶ ambwozere, replying to Tyneside Tigress, #559 of 751 🔗

I feel strongly about it as although I’ve no children I work in the FE sector and it’s going to affect all our students possibly for the whole of the next academic year.

24411 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Tyneside Tigress, #560 of 751 🔗

Possibly, but not in Parliament!

24435 ▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 1, #561 of 751 🔗

It’s looking likely that if you want your children educated best to do it yourself the government is failing in its duties.

24441 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Bella Donna, #562 of 751 🔗

I am very *side-eye* about free schools (sorry Toby) because people could be teaching their kids bloody anything (in a similar vein I am against faith schools), but…. I think it may be time parents. I think it may be time.

24448 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to Bella Donna, 6, #563 of 751 🔗

Speaking from experience, it’s very difficult to educate small children yourself when you and the other adult in the house both have full time jobs you’re expected to do at the same time. And now is not exactly a good time to turn to your boss and say “sorry – too busy to be economically productive and do what you pay me to do. I have to teach my primary age child maths.”

24469 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to matt, 1, #564 of 751 🔗

Exactly it only works when literally the whole village is involved and everyone teaches the kids in shifts. So…. it doesn’t work lol

24573 ▶▶ John Smith, replying to Tyneside Tigress, #565 of 751 🔗

With each passing day, the prospect of schools being closed for ever becomes a reality.

Hell, they’re openly talking about abolishing the police so what’s a few comprehensives in the grand scheme of things.

Also, plenty of ‘furloughed’ or ‘working from home’ who have unexpectedly found themselves housebound available for child care.

Of course, the posh schools will stay open.

24389 Farinances, replying to Farinances, 17, #566 of 751 🔗

Guys….Guys I’m on my way home from work on the bus. WITHOUT A MASK! Nobody said anything. There are at least half the other passengers without masks too.
Have they not brought the rules in yet?

24390 ▶▶ matt, replying to Farinances, 1, #567 of 751 🔗

Next Monday. Sorry.

24401 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to matt, #568 of 751 🔗

Ugh no

24410 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to matt, 8, #569 of 751 🔗

Quite – the covid19 knows full-well that it is not allowed to hit non-mask wearers till June 15th. It is caused a far-left virus and thus behaves impeccably.

24431 ▶▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to IanE, 10, #570 of 751 🔗

Just came back from Tescos. Only about 3 mask wearers one whose mask was improperly secured to his face it flapped open at the sides! Otherwise almost normal shoppers. You can see the people are slowly relaxing their self imposed rules. Thanks BLM you made it possible to show us what a scam social distancing is. 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏

24440 ▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Bella Donna, 5, #571 of 751 🔗

To be fair, I despise the hypocrisy but man has it showed this up for the farce it is

24468 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mark H, replying to Bella Donna, 8, #572 of 751 🔗

I was in Lidl earlier. It was fairly busy, but no queue outside and no door bouncer. No one was wearing a mask. And we’d gone back to the old way of queuing at the tills; for weeks everyone queued down the middle aisle for all 5 tills. Now there were queues in front of each one. This is the closest I’ve seen to normality in many weeks.

24484 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Mark H, #573 of 751 🔗

Oooooh I think it might be happening!

24504 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Mark H, 3, #574 of 751 🔗

Same at Aldi. The only excitement was some mask-wearer berating the poor girl on the till about the absence of plastic bags for her sweet potato “it’s not very hygenic …you should provide bags” Made me laugh – the type who bring their own Waitrose bags and stock up on cheaper stuff at Aldi but would be horrified if their friends found out. Type of woman who, as Paul put it yesterday, has “free-range children”.

24673 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark H, replying to kh1485, 2, #575 of 751 🔗

My Mrs reported that she popped into Tesco at 12:30pm today. No queue outside. No bouncer.

I think the supermarkets are quietly trying to get back to normal.

24392 ▶▶ ianp, replying to Farinances, 2, #576 of 751 🔗

Hopefully to give them time to back down (like they have for stupid track and trace), else ‘the virus’ is having a few days to tend it’s garden

24465 ▶▶ Mark H, replying to Farinances, 2, #577 of 751 🔗

A bus past me yesterday. Admittedly there were only two passengers on it, but neither wore masks. Neither did the driver. I’m in Scotland.

24661 ▶▶ Bella, replying to Farinances, #578 of 751 🔗

Not until Monday I think

24417 BrianJR, replying to BrianJR, 14, #579 of 751 🔗

Herein lies a major contributing factor to the lack of collective action against lockdown. Add to this the vast swathes of public sector employees still enjoying full pay and privileges and it becomes obvious why there is no equivalent to poll tax anger.

Extract from article in the Telegraph:
Nearly two million households will emerge from lockdown better off, a report from an influential think tank has revealed.
Around two-fifths of high-income, working age families have strengthened their household budgets since the coronavirus crisis began, the Resolution Foundation said.
The Foundation called it a “big divide” as it revealed that just one-in-eight of those in the lowest fifth of earners have been able to do the same.
The Resolution Foundation said that its findings showed that 3.4 million adult live in households, in the top fifth for income, whose budgets had strengthened.

Until a majority feels real pain in their home financial situation there will be no action against lockdown – in fact the opposite appears to be gaining momentum.


24428 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to BrianJR, 2, #580 of 751 🔗

Absolutely vile.

I’ve noticed I keep using the word vile.

24459 ▶▶ Poppy, replying to BrianJR, 4, #581 of 751 🔗

Really sad actually, and quite selfish too, especially considering that most of these families will have either young children or teenagers who are detrimentally affected by lockdown in many ways – lost education, lost social development, youth taken away from them, worse job prospects in the future, being burdened with the debt of this farce for years to come, to name but a few.

24472 ▶▶ matt, replying to BrianJR, 4, #582 of 751 🔗

Well, I guess it’s a function of 1) what proportion of your monthly income do you normally spend on necessities versus luxuries/savings and 2) how secure has your monthly income been. More middle/upper middle class families have more disposable income and currently fewer opportunities to dispose of it. Meanwhile, few professional and middle/upper middle management jobs have been furloughed, compared to blue collar/lower level clerical jobs.

It’s no surprise, sad though it is. The next question will be how many of those professional and management jobs will go in the coming months, when reality hits.

24473 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to matt, #583 of 751 🔗

Might take another 6 months to filter up to them. But it will happen.

24502 ▶▶▶▶ Cruella, replying to Farinances, #584 of 751 🔗

*running hands*

24542 ▶▶▶ ianric, replying to matt, 5, #585 of 751 🔗

If you are able to work, unlike people on furlough, you are getting full pay. The lockdown means avenues to spend your money are limited. You can’t go to pubs, restaurants, theatres, cinemas or travel and only limited shops are open. It is no surprise people are saving money.

Some businesses have a vested interest in lockdown as their competitors are out of business. For instance, supermarkets may have more alcohol sales if people can’t use pubs.

24674 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to ianric, 1, #586 of 751 🔗

My parents told me they have way more money, and they’re retired. Simply from not being able to go on holiday or out boozing every weekend.

24662 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to matt, 1, #587 of 751 🔗

The next question will be how many of those professional and management jobs will go in the coming months, when reality hits.

Bare minimum will be October when the scheme ends however I heard somewhere that many companies are already considering redundancies from July onwards. It will be interesting if we’ll start to see news reports of job losses from next month.

24479 ▶▶ daveyp, replying to BrianJR, 1, #588 of 751 🔗

I have been talking to a lot of other business owners, and virtually all have them have taken loans out and bail outs from the Gov, but not for helping their businesses survive, but to grow their businesses.

Loads are making a killing off it, and this money will probably never be paid back or recouped.

24675 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to daveyp, #589 of 751 🔗


24500 ▶▶ Cruella, replying to BrianJR, #590 of 751 🔗

Bang. on. the. money.

24545 ▶▶ Old Mum, replying to BrianJR, 2, #591 of 751 🔗

Yes, spoke to a friend at the weekend who has had struggled to find work in the last year but owns a few properties, one of which is a holiday let – she was given £10k by the government for ‘loss of income from letting’ & has furloughed herself from her own company, of which she is the only employee! She has been told she can let the house out again from July. It would seem the gov’t are particularly generous to those who don’t really need the money?

24677 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Old Mum, 1, #592 of 751 🔗

Meanwhile everyone who works in a shop is fooked

24447 RDawg, replying to RDawg, 4, #593 of 751 🔗

Thought I’d post this on here to lift everyone’s spirits a bit. The message is very on point!

“Things Can Only Get Better” – D:Ream


Play it loud and play it proud!

24449 ▶▶ matt, replying to RDawg, 12, #594 of 751 🔗

It’s truer now than it was then, but it reminds me too much of Blair in ‘97. Also, Brian Cox is on keyboards and frankly he’s just irritating.

24453 ▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to matt, 4, #595 of 751 🔗

Isn’t he another ‘scientist’!

24454 ▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 6, #596 of 751 🔗

No. He’s actually a scientist without the scare quotes. He just happens to like being on TV all the time. Still irritating though.

24456 ▶▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to matt, 7, #597 of 751 🔗

Same association for me. I just picture Mandelson and Prescott trying to dance with each other.

As for the keyboard player, his programs on the universe might be watchable if you could actually ever see the rest of the universe beyond his smug twattish fop face in every single shot.

24499 ▶▶▶▶ Cruella, replying to Edgar Friendly, 4, #598 of 751 🔗

😄 and his oh so earnest voice!

24487 ▶▶▶ Lockdown Truth, replying to matt, 1, #599 of 751 🔗

Didn’t notice this…lol!

24607 ▶▶▶ Gossamer, replying to matt, #600 of 751 🔗

His previous group, Dare, were far better. They rocked!

24450 ▶▶ IanE, replying to RDawg, 1, #601 of 751 🔗

Didn’t work very well, last time around though.

24485 ▶▶ Lockdown Truth, replying to RDawg, 2, #602 of 751 🔗

Sorry… reminds me too much of Tony Blair..and Brian Cox 🙁

25440 ▶▶ mjr, replying to RDawg, #603 of 751 🔗

This was the theme music to the labour victory of 1997 and the coronation of Tony B Liar.. and unfortunately will always be associated with that . So it actually lowers spirits .

24455 BrianJR, replying to BrianJR, 8, #604 of 751 🔗

So here’s a little lockdown wordsmith challenge – Who can predict a phrase that comes closest to Mr Hancock’s, if my theory plays out……

Looking at today’s ONS data on total deaths (let’s put aside all issues of classification and just focus on the dreadful overall situation) there were 9824 recorded deaths in England and Wales in week 22 (29th May), above the 2020 5 year average for wk22 which is 8171.

But here’s the interesting stat – the 2020 5 year average for week 21 is 9940 – meaning week 22 actual was below week 21’s 5 year average.

Why is this relevant ? Because for the first 13 weeks of the year to 27th March the total deaths in 2020 were running below the 5 year average. and this week is the first time since then that the current week is back below previous week’s 5 year average.

And what’s the betting that by the end of June the actual week will be below the 5 year average? I think high chances given the fact that many of the vulnerable and elderly in care homes and hospital had their lives foreshortened.

So the challenge is, what will Mr Hancock then say to justify continued lockdown ?

Do have a look at the numbers – whilst we still can. I would not be surprised to see the data being withdrawn once it no longer supports the narrative.

24458 ▶▶ Julian, replying to BrianJR, 2, #605 of 751 🔗

Their answer would be that only a very small % of the population have been exposed (I cannot recall but I think it’s between 5 and 10 according to their stats) and therefore if we get back to normal it will take off again and kill lots more. Their exit strategy is hope for a vaccine, and pending that: “new normal”, cycles of lockdown, and Test, Track and Trace so that “new normal” and lockdown are more effective in slowing the rate of infection so as to protect the NHS. I think that’s a summary of the “official” position.

24466 ▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to Julian, 10, #606 of 751 🔗

It’s disingenuous how the ‘official position’ ignores the science, i.e. Professor Karl Friston’s assertion that pretty much everyone has been exposed but not everyone actually get it due to a range of variables within different populations, such as cross-immunity with other coronaviruses, vitamin D exposure, existing morbidity, obesity levels, etc. Not to mention the CDC fatality rate of 0.26% and countless other scientists saying that lockdowns are useless and that a vaccine may not even be necessary or even viable at this point, given that the virus is fading from the community. It is deeply Orwellian of our government to ignore established science.

24474 ▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Poppy, 8, #607 of 751 🔗

They’re no more ignoring the science than the are following the science. They’ve chosen some pet scientists and they’re following them and ignoring all of the others. Science is about debate and disagreement.

24483 ▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to matt, 4, #608 of 751 🔗

They’re following *selective* science.

Which isn’t science.

24497 ▶▶▶ Nic, replying to Julian, 1, #609 of 751 🔗

I think things r changing daily as we understand more about the v irus.they reckon more than half dont have symptons but dont spread either.many people shrug it off without producing anti bodies.15 to 20% may of had it in london which if u put in other factors I have mentioned might mean they are not far off herd immunity
This might explain why after all the stuff about overcrowded underground trains etc in london there has been no spike.
Obviously it’s only what iv read but its food for thought as waiting for a magic vaccine living like we are is not possible

24462 ▶▶ matt, replying to BrianJR, 7, #610 of 751 🔗

I’m sorry to say, he will say nothing. He won’t even mention it. And nobody else will either. And he will tell us that this virus “has not been beaten yet, but we have made good progress” and then the press will ask him facile questions about something operational and meaningless.

24492 ▶▶▶ Nic, replying to matt, 1, #611 of 751 🔗

Yes usual bollocks! He talks a lot but doesent say anything.

24488 ▶▶ Lockdown Truth, replying to BrianJR, #612 of 751 🔗

Second wave…

25684 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to BrianJR, #613 of 751 🔗

The data already does not support the narrative – you just need to look at the number of deaths where *only* Covid 19 was named on the death certificate (ie no co-morbidities) – it is approx 1360…

24457 daveyp, replying to daveyp, 7, #614 of 751 🔗

Dodgy ONS figures!

The week 22 figures have removed the death of a male aged 70-74 in Week 6, that had been present for the Weeks 20 & 21 figures. I emailed them questioning this death last but I am still awaiting a response, strange how it is gone this week.

Also, the 5 high profile child deaths ( 2 x 5yo’s, 11yo, 13yo, & 14yo) that were reported over two months ago now that I have been investigating, still do not appear in the figures.

24463 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to daveyp, 9, #615 of 751 🔗

They are quietly revising down, mark my words.
VERY quietly. – Probably because they know their figures are going to be questioned in the courts in the foreseeable future.

24480 ▶▶ Sceptique, replying to daveyp, #616 of 751 🔗

How on earth do you know? Do they list them by name?

24491 ▶▶▶ daveyp, replying to Sceptique, 6, #617 of 751 🔗

There are zero deaths registered for males aged 1-14 , that how.

24551 ▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to daveyp, 1, #618 of 751 🔗

Could it not just be that the media reports were wrong?

I don’t generally trust the MSM, with one or two exceptions.

24670 ▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to John P, 1, #619 of 751 🔗

That’s the point. They were wrong.
Wrong on purpose.

24955 ▶▶▶▶▶ daveyp, replying to John P, #620 of 751 🔗

It wasn’t just the media reports though, they we’re all discussed at Government briefings, Gov mentioned one death, and Hancock came out with the “I cried, as I have a 14 year old too!”.

24489 Lockdown Truth, replying to Lockdown Truth, 3, #621 of 751 🔗

Just posted this to illustrate the death rate of people under 80 with no other health issues compared to people aged 80 or over and/or with health issues.

24490 ▶▶ Lockdown Truth, replying to Lockdown Truth, #622 of 751 🔗

…based on the latest NHS England data .

24493 Mark, replying to Mark, 11, #623 of 751 🔗

The WHO’s head of emerging diseases said quarantining people with symptoms should be the main focus

Fantastic! So (surprise, surprise) after all the panic and the fear and after incurring catastrophic costs, for which we will be paying for a generation and possibly more, we come back to basic common sense.

The above quote was on the BBC front page link for the following story, but not within the story itself.

Coronavirus: Asymptomatic transmission ‘very rare’

Note that the piece includes a classic coronapanic dishonest propaganda scare quote from a convenient scientist:

And since people who haven’t yet developed symptoms are unlikely to know that they are contagious, pre-symptomatic transmission has “important implications” for track, trace and isolation measures, Prof Javid said.

This emphasises the importance of lockdown measures in “massively reduc[ing] the numbers of people infected,” said Prof Liam Smeeth, an epidemiologist at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine.

In actual fact, as has been pointed out here for weeks by, iirc, guy153, the truth of the matter is that if you quarantine the symptomatic rigorously, you reduce the spread of the disease dramatically. Any additional reduction due to lockdown doesn’t come within a light year of justifying its calamitous costs.

24494 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Mark, 11, #624 of 751 🔗

Go to fucking bed and take a Lemsip.

Is the basic jist.

24498 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Farinances, 4, #625 of 751 🔗

Those of us with a traditionalist inclination, who generally regard “progressive” attitudes as at best nonsense and often dangerous nonsense, are entitled to go into smug mode at this point, I think….

24503 ▶▶▶ wendyk, replying to Farinances, 10, #626 of 751 🔗

I’m so fed up with the hysteria, the masks, the incoherent and inconsistent guidelines, the economic and social damage that has ensued, I’m now adopting Donald Rumsfeld’s ‘ stuff happens’ assertion.
Stuff has happened; it’s life; let’s get on with it .

24507 ▶▶ John P, replying to Mark, 5, #627 of 751 🔗

But it’s no big deal anyway. It still seems rather an extreme measure. Those in the high risk categories can self isolate if they wish. The vulnerable in care homes could be protected.

Everone else can just get on with life. Temperature and cough or not.

24520 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to John P, 3, #628 of 751 🔗

Depends what you mean by “quarantining”. The term in itself doesn’t specify if it is coercive or not.

I’d be very happy if the government response were to be to “strongly recommend” that anyone with symptoms should self isolate (quarantine) while symptomatic. If they were to make a law that would require anyone with symptoms to go into what we’ve had for everyone as “lockdown”, that would be a step too far for me, but still infinitely better than what we’ve had.

24522 ▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Mark, 2, #629 of 751 🔗

I wouldn’t like it much, but I’d take it. Especially since nobody’s catching the bloody thing anymore.

24541 ▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to Mark, #630 of 751 🔗

I agree, but not from the lectern. If people who might be vulnerable wish to self isolate that should be up to them.

Many residents of care homes are suffering from dementia and cannot make decisions for themselves.

24548 ▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to John P, 3, #631 of 751 🔗

Oh, people who are vulnerable should only ever have had to make their own decisions. It’s a personal risk assessment. Would you prefer to live a few more months with terminal cancer without being able to see anyone you love, or to risk catching something that might kill you a bit sooner? It’s the same risk assessment everyone with a significant, life limiting disease has always had to make. They just haven’t know it before.

I thought you were talking about people with symptoms.

24554 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to matt, 1, #632 of 751 🔗

I agree with you matt

24549 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Mark, 4, #633 of 751 🔗

All they’d need to do is enforce sick pay. That’s literally all they’d need to do.
“Go home, go to bed, get paid for doing so, [and be celebrated rather than dissed by your slavedriver boss]”.

[Personal aside]

24559 ▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Farinances, 4, #634 of 751 🔗

Risk of malingerers “can’t come in today *cough cough* I have a new, persistent *cough cough* dry cough. See you in a week, if I’m spared!”

But it’s certainly a more economically measured response than “everybody go home, everything shut down. The government will pick up the tab”

24506 Nobody2020, replying to Nobody2020, 5, #635 of 751 🔗

Guardian keeping up the fearmongering. I’ve highlighted some examples:


“What exactly have we learned about Covid-19 over the past six months? How quickly and how well have we responded to the challenges posed by it?And, much more importantly, what questions do we most urgently need to answer over the next six months? Answers from researchers and doctors should tell us how we might survive one of the worst crises to affect humanity in modern times .”

“This disease has turned out to be much worse than any of the pandemics that we had been anticipating and making plans to counter,” said Martin Hibberd, professor of emerging infectious diseases at the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine.

“It has a 1% death rate and it is highly transmissible, features that were considered to be highly unlikely for any new emerging disease we thought we might face. Such features represent the worst possible realistic scenario that we could envisage and lie at the very limit of what we thought we should expect. So the pandemic we have got now is about as bad as we thought it could ever get . It is a very sobering prospect.”

“This point was also stressed by David Nabarro, professor of global health at Imperial College London, and an envoy for the World Health Organization on Covid-19… This is not a disease to be underestimated

“In the long term a vaccine may emerge as humanity’s saviour .”

“As Woolhouse put it: “A vaccine is a hope, not a strategy.” This point was also stressed by Nabarro: “We have got to get out of this mirage sense that all will be resolved when a vaccine appears at the end of this year to save us. That is not going to happen. And even when we do get a vaccine that is safe and works, there is still the issue of how we get it to the 7.8 billion people who inhabit our planet. The global eradication of a disease is a very, very difficult business . We managed it with polio eventually, but we are still trying to get rid of measles.”

24509 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Nobody2020, 19, #636 of 751 🔗

“This disease has turned out to be much worse than any of the pandemics that we had been anticipating and making plans to counter,” said Martin Hibberd, professor of emerging infectious diseases at the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine.


And where’s he getting the 1% death rate from? 1% of people who end up in hospital?

24698 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Farinances, 2, #637 of 751 🔗

So bad they downgraded it from a HCID (High Consequence Infectious Disease) in March.

24526 ▶▶ Lockdown Truth, replying to Nobody2020, 17, #638 of 751 🔗

“It has a 1% death rate and it is highly transmissible…”

Not transmissible from children to adults.
Not transmissible by symptom-less cases.
Difficult to become infected outdoors.

CDC say 0.26% death rates.
Many other reports say death rate (IFR) closer to 0.1% or lower.

So this is total rubbish! These people are supposed to be professionals…

24611 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to Lockdown Truth, 3, #639 of 751 🔗

Well, they are professionals – professional liars. Remember what Churchill said about prospective MPs, “they are asked to stand, hope to sit, and are expected to lie”. This now also applies to all government advisers.

24555 ▶▶ Biker, replying to Nobody2020, 13, #640 of 751 🔗

it’s in the Guardian so you can safely assume it’s total bollocks. Oh and fuck the Guardian and all who sail in her, awful people writing total shit for utter wankers.

24578 ▶▶▶ Skippy, replying to Biker, 3, #641 of 751 🔗

Now, Biker, you’re amongst friends and people of a likeminded persuasion.
tell us how you REALLY feel?

24590 ▶▶▶▶ Biker, replying to Skippy, 9, #642 of 751 🔗

i love the Guardian and i just want to drink soya lattes and talk about men who cut off their bollocks and think they are woman, i wanna be an ally to black people living in the modern world with every need taken care of but are still fucking moaning, i wanna talk about scraping my motorcycles and using rubber band powered skateboards to get around, i wanna recycle my piss into plastic bottles to sell to climate change warriors, i wanna see Greta Thunderburg on Pornhub, i wanna be a cuck and watch my wife slipped a length by a striking miner from 1984, i want drugs mandatory, i want Elton John to adopt a whole orphanage and rent out the children to the Clinton foundation . i want Elon Musk to crash his battery powered car and have the corrosive acid burn the shape of Alex Jones on his face and then have him present the One Show and most of all i want to ride my motorcycle round the world with Ewan McGregor and when we’re off camera looking over a large ravine in India i’ll push him off shouting you were a shit Obi Wan Kenobi

24695 ▶▶▶▶▶ Sarigan, replying to Biker, 1, #643 of 751 🔗

I’d vote for you

24604 ▶▶ FergusonDoesntUnderstandFacts, replying to Nobody2020, 2, #644 of 751 🔗

This is the lightest, friendlist, most minor panemic we could expect. We’ve been bloody lucky not to have something much worse on the loose. The sobering prospect is that if we don’t get our arses in gear and learn to keep society functioing and freedom intact whatever the risks, as well as improving our medical infrastructure and properly funding the types of science which actually work (trialling cures, vaccines… not epidemiologists making up junk numbers from unphysical models) so they can medically wipe out* a truly bad virus when one emerges, then we will be smashed as a society simultaneously by a future worse disease and our ill thought out lockdown based response to such a disease which current lunacy is making look like the default option for diseases.

*vaccines stopped smallpox, antibiotics make many bacterial infections recoverable, I don’t think “non-pharmaceutical interventions”, as Ferguson likes to call tyranny, have ever stopped a disease

24622 ▶▶ FergusonDoesntUnderstandFacts, replying to Nobody2020, 2, #645 of 751 🔗

Just had another thought about this: A virus with a 0.26% death rate, surely no threat to society unless we, oh I don’t know, confine everyone to their homes, break the economy and usher in Chinese government style tyranny internationally. No-one would do that over such a virus? Right?

Now you’re getting it… But who is bringing in the tyranny..?

24508 Tyneside Tigress, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 3, #647 of 751 🔗

Just watching and listening to Alok Sharma doing the 5 o’clock briefing – so where is he getting his hair cut?

24513 ▶▶ arfurmo, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 1, #648 of 751 🔗

Not looking hopeful re the rumoured 22nd June opening of beer gardens.

24519 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to arfurmo, 3, #649 of 751 🔗

No. No, that’s true.

But if it happens, they’ll announce it on the 21st. Or the morning of the 22nd

24525 ▶▶▶▶ arfurmo, replying to matt, 1, #650 of 751 🔗

Not sure about that with all the guff about shops needing to display their risk assessment or whatever. In any case you need the beer in place. However agreed that the press are starting to press the 1m rule

24536 ▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to arfurmo, #651 of 751 🔗

Yeah, I didn’t mean that seriously. Although, I wouldn’t put it past them not to realise that a morning wasn’t long enough to organise everything that needed to be organised.

24537 ▶▶▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to arfurmo, 3, #652 of 751 🔗

Joel Hills (ITV) was pushing him. We need a bit more directed aggression at the 5pm briefings to expose this shower of incompetents that are wrecking our country. Meanwhile, I suppose the Dear Leader is catching up on his tennis before he is wheeled out at PMQs tomorrow.

24532 ▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to matt, 8, #653 of 751 🔗

Exactly, just as they announced shops like mine had to close immediately at 5 p.m. on Friday 20th March. A load of prep’ out the window. These jokers just don’t have an effing clue.

24598 ▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to kh1485, #654 of 751 🔗

Not that relevant now, I guess, but how did you find out about that kh ?

Dogs eat letters; phones run out of charge; not everyone watches telly. Blissful ignorance is a useful position to be in, sometimes. 🙂

24523 ▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to arfurmo, 6, #655 of 751 🔗

Difficult to conclude anything from his answers to questions. My husband has just shouted from the other side of the kitchen ‘it’s a bit of a low wattage day’. They really are clueless, scarily so!

24530 ▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 2, #656 of 751 🔗

One thing I’ve noticed – the NHS death figures have stopped rendering the days on which the deaths announced have actually happened as numbers, only as a bar chart. I’ll have to download the bar chart to have a look.

Also just noticed that there is also a tab “deaths, no positive tests”. That might be worth a look, if it goes back further in the past.

24558 ▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 2, #657 of 751 🔗

Low wattage, LOL. Good description of the collective output of the Cabinet.

24610 ▶▶▶▶▶ IanE, replying to Julian, #658 of 751 🔗

Perhaps they run on solar power?

24518 ▶▶ matt, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 5, #659 of 751 🔗

Can’t answer that question. But I am noticing that the tone of the questioning from the media has changed. It’s aggressive, as it often has been, but it’s now aggressively pushing for detail on when things are going to ease up and when the social distancing rules are going to ease up.

24529 ▶▶▶ John Smith, replying to matt, 9, #660 of 751 🔗

Funny that, seeing as they were the ones most vocal in their support for full lockdown.

24535 ▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to John Smith, 3, #661 of 751 🔗

Oh, I know. I don’t respect them an iota more for it – just pleased by the change in mood you can detect.

24627 ▶▶▶▶▶ John Smith, replying to matt, 1, #662 of 751 🔗

When will you people ever learn?

Not to be trusted…

24540 ▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to matt, #663 of 751 🔗

Just crossed with your comment – see above reply to arfurmo

24667 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Tyneside Tigress, #664 of 751 🔗

Funny how he’s still insisting on shops following “government guidelines” and not realising that those same guidelines will result in the demise of those shops which will add to those already on the dole.


25680 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Tyneside Tigress, #665 of 751 🔗

Yes, Boris is the only one whose hair seems *not* to have been being cut since the lockdown…

24517 John Ballard, 4, #666 of 751 🔗

Just like to say thanks to Toby for helping me stay sane during this fiasco. So pleased I found this site weeks ago and that not everyone is a complete muppet. If the Government had kept with what I think was its first plan (I lose track); keep the over 70’s and anyone vulnerable at home home for 12 weeks and let everyone else get on with it, we would be in a much better place.
I now have staff not wanting to come back to work as Furlough is good once costs of going to work taken out. I go to the supermarket and perfectly healthy looking people in their 20’s and 30’s are stood in their masks as I wonder around with my 52 year old bag of bones.
I see people sat in their own car, by themselves driving along at 30 mph wearing a mask, what do they expect to catch ! If they had no windscreen they would have more chance of choking to death on a fly.
The main media has been as pathetic over this as over Brexit. This is the view, we cannot tell you anything else or give you any other view! I’ve heard more common sense on gogglebox – something I never watched before this nightmare !
I have people crossing the road so they do not come near me when i am walking my dog – and he’s a basset not a rottie !
We have instigated a country full of complete muppet’s, scared to death by a Government that has been at best useless and clueless and at worst …..well a lot worse.
Personally I think the whole thing is embarrassing. I called it the snowflake pandemic back in March when i was forced out of the office and into working from home. Nothing has changed my view, hundreds of billions lost, tens of thousands with undiagnosed illnesses due to the NHS pretty much closing down apart from if you think you have Covid, kids not being taught.
What a shambles.

24524 Awkward Git, replying to Awkward Git, 14, #667 of 751 🔗

My question today on http://www.gov.uk/ask , thought what the hell why not?:

It was reported in the admittedly laughable MSM that our Prime Minister, to put it politely, was unaware of the economic havoc that the policies that he, as Prime Minister and representative in parliament of Her Majesty the Queen, is ultimately responsible for introducing and continuing in the face of ever mounting independence that the lockdown is and always has been not required.

Is the Prime Minister (but not just him alone) stupid, incompetent, surrounded by stupid incompetents who gave him false information, surrounded by people deliberately lying to him?

24534 ▶▶ Poppy, replying to Awkward Git, 13, #668 of 751 🔗

He’s a populist with absolutely no leadership skills whatsoever so he cannot make any decisions that go against the MSM or public opinion.

24608 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to Poppy, 4, #669 of 751 🔗

Yes indeed, a clownish buffoon pretending that he is just pretending to be a clownish buffoon.

24527 tinxx, replying to tinxx, 16, #670 of 751 🔗

They simply cannot take a decision. Keeping something “under review” means not changing anything in response to the evidence in order to CYA their initial wrong headed decisions. The R number is totally irrelevant now – we are in the tail of the “pandemic” so it adds no information at all. We may as well count the number of tweets trending on lockdown as a measure it is really that dull. As for the 2m rule was never justified – it was only 2m because the men in hi-viz jackets didn’t trust people to be able to judge a 1m gap. Schools not back until September is also beyond stupid.

24539 ▶▶ John P, replying to tinxx, #671 of 751 🔗

Regarding schools – aren’t they usually shut for the Summer anyway?

24544 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to John P, 4, #672 of 751 🔗

Yes. But not normally from March and you can normally find holiday clubs and things to look after them for the bits of the 6/7 weeks over the summer when they’re off and the parents aren’t.

24547 ▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to matt, 6, #673 of 751 🔗

Yes, but we are in June now.

If it was up to me they would never have closed.

24553 ▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to John P, 1, #674 of 751 🔗

Oh. Yes. Clearly they should never have closed. Thought you were making a different point.

24528 Schrodinger, replying to Schrodinger, 16, #675 of 751 🔗

Worrying developments for those of us still locked up in Wales

I live in Wales where we are still only allowed to travel locally and that is interpreted, normally as 5 miles. The Welsh Government has indicated that this will not change at the next review of the legislation. This if you remember was only ‘temporary’ to help’flatten the curve’.

A friend has just reported that earlier today there were military checkpoints stopping vehicles in Mid Wales near Builth Wells and turning back cars. Her husband was trying to go fishing and got turned back.

I asked for more clarification and she replied:

The check points are in routes going north and south through Builth wells and surrounding routes. Google satnav will show orange or red on the roads.

This would seem to be a worrying development in a ‘free society’.

There is a petition for people in Wales to sign here about the travel rules


24531 ▶▶ John Smith, replying to Schrodinger, 2, #676 of 751 🔗

We’re entering a new phase.

24543 ▶▶▶ John P, replying to John Smith, 1, #677 of 751 🔗

Perhaps. The roads were very busy today in my city. I don’t usually like a lot of traffic, but in the circumstances it was welcome.

I sense the thing is ending, but the government are really dragging their heels.

24626 ▶▶▶▶ John Smith, replying to John P, 1, #678 of 751 🔗

No ‘perhaps’ about it. It’s coming for definite.

24533 ▶▶ John P, replying to Schrodinger, 11, #679 of 751 🔗

“A friend has just reported that earlier today there were military checkpoints stopping vehicles in Mid Wales near Builth Wells and turning back cars. Her husband was trying to go fishing and got turned back.”

Yes, I think you’ve just got to whisper the secret phrase to them: “black lives matter” and then they’ll let you through.

25676 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Schrodinger, #680 of 751 🔗

That is SERIOUSLY worrying!

24538 Peter Thompson, replying to Peter Thompson, 32, #681 of 751 🔗

Went to work yesterday ….well I am a key worker after all and work for the state religion, the NHS. Used the A and E entrance and there were the poor clients waiting in line with their marigold gloves on and embroided rags covering their mouths. A rather obese ” health care assistant” was shouting at them from a distance about what to do…apparently the marigolds were not up to standard.
I said rather loudly as I went past ” Wonder when this pantomine will end ” and some at least heard me .

Of course that is the question. We signed up for a useless lockdown for 3 weeks and now it is 3 months and I doubt it will change for another 3 months.

It is insane.

24625 ▶▶ John Smith, replying to Peter Thompson, 5, #682 of 751 🔗

Met an elderly mucker of mine out in the street with flourescent yellow marigolds and fully masked up.

Absolutely broke my heart tbh.

A veteran of the Malaya insurgency no less.

Wrong on so many levels.

25674 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Peter Thompson, #683 of 751 🔗

Is this to make us so mentally disturbed that we will more easily acquiesce to being forcibly vaccinated just to be released from lockdown, I wonder????

24546 Poppy, replying to Poppy, 31, #684 of 751 🔗

The report today about the government rowing back on getting all children back to primary school before summer is absolutely galling. They cannot possibly be unaware of the scientific evidence that Covid-19 barely touches children and the vast majority of healthy adults recover as well. Therefore, our leaders are being deliberately dishonest with us. It is deeply saddening that they are doing this to our children when they will be the ones paying for their folly in reduced education, worse job prospects, poor mental health and social skills, and massive taxes for the rest of their lives – long after this shower have gone.

I’m sceptical of conspiracy theories, but I’m really starting to ask myself what the hell is going on now. The scientific evidence is so blatant and so easily accessible, and yet the government is pursuing a completely different narrative. I find it very hard to swallow that our leaders are sociopathic enough to wreak suffering of this scale on the country they serve, just to save face. It is political short-termism at its finest because the consequences will be so grave that they will not escape an almighty reckoning further down the line. I guess I find it hard to accept because I like to see the best in people but I am genuinely losing faith in humanity now. For so few people to consciously harm others in this way, and so many of them, with no justification whatsoever, and to not try and fix it as soon as possible, they’ve really got to be the dregs of the human race.

24550 ▶▶ matt, replying to Poppy, 11, #685 of 751 🔗

Labour, the Unions, the media all complained. Some parents had been terrified by the propaganda enough to complain as well. The government caved. The turning point in that particular conversation came when they conceded that no parent would be penalised for not sending their child back. Made it look like the fear was justified.

I’m convinced that little piece of high profile pantomime actually set the whole relaxation timetable back significantly. It’s that that made them worried that nobody wanted to be allowed out of their house.

Weakness and lack of leadership. It needn’t be more complicated or sinister than that.

24589 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to matt, #686 of 751 🔗

Do you have a link for that ‘relaxation timetable’ you speak of, matt ? 🙂

24591 ▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to JohnB, 3, #687 of 751 🔗

Nope. Speculation, some of it second-hand semi-informed. A natural tendency to ascribe the better motives to people, while reserving the right to believe that most people will disappoint you through lack of gumption and piss-poor execution. Residual levels of hope.

That’s all.

24552 ▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Poppy, 4, #688 of 751 🔗

The thing with conspiracy theories is that eventually a lot of them become conspiracy facts.

Go with your instincts and you won’t be far wrong.

24556 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to Awkward Git, 8, #689 of 751 🔗

I always think that the thing about conspiracy theories, is that they mostly seem to assume that government is far more competent and good at planning than I’ve ever seen any evidence for.

24581 ▶▶▶▶ MoH, replying to matt, 2, #690 of 751 🔗

Their incompetence is frequently staged, so harmful policies can be plausibly denied. This is a government that took all our rights away and locked us in our homes very competently

24587 ▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to MoH, 3, #691 of 751 🔗

I’d argue that they didn’t do it very competently. We all just cheerfully complied, which took them by surprise.

24614 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ MoH, replying to matt, 2, #692 of 751 🔗

I disagree on the point that our rights (voting, freedom of movement, freedom of association, freedom to worship, freedom of earning a living) were taken away very competently, with no fuss We may never get those rights back. Regardless of our compliance, the government achieved the task. All gone due to the Coronavirus Act 2020, passed on 25th March 2020

Amazing how that piece of legislation appeared just days into the (fake) pandemic

25009 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to MoH, #693 of 751 🔗

It wasn’t fake, but it wasn’t exactly the pandemic they thought or told us it was.
But then they told us it was to “flatten the curve”. The curve has now been largely steamrollered, but here we still are. I can’t legally get my hair cut, and there’s no way I’d trust my OH to do it instead.

24584 ▶▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to matt, 3, #694 of 751 🔗

I doubt the government is the real driving force here and it is there lack of competence that makes that possible. Our MPs do not have the ability to have independent thought or the bravery to action any such independent thought.

24585 ▶▶▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to Saved To Death, #695 of 751 🔗

Please forgive the grammar error.

24557 ▶▶ John P, replying to Poppy, 4, #696 of 751 🔗

“I find it very hard to swallow that our leaders are sociopathic enough to wreak suffering of this scale on the country they serve, just to save face.”

lol, oh I don’t !

24560 ▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to John P, 4, #697 of 751 🔗

Like I said, I like to assume people are good before proven otherwise but perhaps I am naïve because I am young. I certainly couldn’t sleep at night knowing I’d caused this much hell for so many people.

24621 ▶▶▶▶ John Smith, replying to Poppy, 2, #698 of 751 🔗

Like nearly everyone, you make the mistake of judging these creatures by your own keen sense of morals and decency.

These type have neither.

And that is why they find themselves in the positions they are in.

Shit floats.

24597 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to John P, 2, #699 of 751 🔗

Yes – I think it is probably a combination of sociopathy, autism, moats around them to protect from any consequences and being constantly praised by sycophants.

24562 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to Poppy, 7, #700 of 751 🔗

Boris and his cabinet clearly have the backbone of a shoal of amoeba.
If it’s the teachers that are so worried, then they should have offered them hazmat suits to wear to school. And parents who refuse to send their children to school….made personally responsible for their education. Considering the amount of brainwashing going on in schools (see weekend riots, left-wing Twitter feeds, etc) teaching them at home might not be such a bad thing.

24566 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to Lms23, 8, #701 of 751 🔗

My view on the bloody teachers is this:

If you think that educating children is of the highest importance and value, then you should be demanding that _every day_ that the schools remain closed, the people who are keeping them closed should present incontrovertible evidence justifying why they can’t open.

If you don’t think that educating children is of the highest importance and value and you are a teacher, then you’re in the wrong profession.

24571 ▶▶▶ Skippy, replying to Lms23, 5, #702 of 751 🔗

I think the collective noun for amoeba(e?) should be a Parliament

24586 ▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to Lms23, 1, #703 of 751 🔗

I think parents being held responsible is fine once the schools return to normal. As long as the children are being treated like bio hazards in a prison like facility then I think parents should be able to keep their children home so as not to be subjected to such behaviour by teachers.

24564 ▶▶ guy153, replying to Poppy, 6, #704 of 751 🔗

The irony is that there is a rather nasty and very infectious virus that nearly all children catch at school that puts a couple of percent of them in hospital, and even kills a small number. It’s called RSV and there are a few vaccines for it in the pipeline (and have been for a few years now). Obviously RSV is not a reason to keep kids out of school but there’s absolutely no consistency here with the panic about Covid.

24568 ▶▶ Paul, replying to Poppy, 7, #705 of 751 🔗

I’ve always found some of the conspiracy theories that have gone around over the years slightly entertaining at best and downright ludicrous at worst but like you I am really starting to think something very sinister is in hand now.Nothing that is happening makes any sense whatsoever if it is purely being done as a reaction to a so-called pandemic.
The economic,societal and human damage of the government’s actions is going to be unbelievable but they clearly don’t care,so surely that means they doing it deliberately or they are collectively insane ?.They constantly toss minute morsels of hope at us and then always cruelly snatch them away,for example,saying pubs and restaurants can open in two weeks,hurray !,but then add only if they can serve customers outside ! which means the overwhelming majority of these establishments will remain closed.

24603 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to Paul, 5, #706 of 751 🔗

It is very hard to know, but, given Boris’s apparent reply on being told the likely scale of job losses coming (“Christ”), I think they may genuinely be so detached from normal reality that they genuinely thought that there would be a quick V-shaped recovery with minimal damage to the country. That we are led by such buffoons is at least as scary as if it were a conspiracy. What with this, Net Zero idiocy and now BLM lunacy, it is now even harder to see how Western society can survive much longer. Maybe China is the future: if so I am glad I ma no longer young!

24595 ▶▶ FergusonDoesntUnderstandFacts, replying to Poppy, 1, #707 of 751 🔗

The politicians should start acting more like scientists are supposed to, openly admitting their mistakes and pledging what to try next, with the open admission that it is an attempt and if it isn’t effective they’ll try something else. The scientists, well its mostly epidemiologists guilty here, not science in general, should start acting like scientists too. Not like politicians. You expect cover-ups and doubling-down from politicians, scientists should stay above that and be willing to admit that lockdown was wrong.

25671 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Poppy, #708 of 751 🔗

It is also somewhat disturbing that they think we are all so stupid as to not have rumbled what is going on…

24565 Lou, replying to Lou, 9, #709 of 751 🔗

Just a thought how are parents supposed to go back to work with no schools, no kids clubs, kids not able to stay with grandparents. I mean serious question ….or are they hoping parents will be forced to ‘break the rules’ and will have no choice but to send children to be looked after by family members. That way the government don’t hold any responsibility …

24567 ▶▶ Moomin, replying to Lou, 3, #710 of 751 🔗

I doubt they’ve even thought of it they’re so stupid.

24569 ▶▶ matt, replying to Lou, 7, #711 of 751 🔗

They recognise this, but they’re too pathetic to stand up to the pressure.

24570 kh1485, replying to kh1485, 18, #712 of 751 🔗

And amidst all this craziness, Sadiq Khan is now busy deciding which statues to remove and which streets to rename in London. Just when I think things can’t get any more mad, they do …

24592 ▶▶ IanE, replying to kh1485, 5, #713 of 751 🔗

There seems to be no bottom to the depths of their insanity. If there were not still some sane folks around, I would think that crazy pills had been put in the water supply!

24593 ▶▶ FergusonDoesntUnderstandFacts, replying to kh1485, 1, #714 of 751 🔗

If he actually cared about racial inequality he might start by locking up every police officer involved in the development and deployment of facial recognition systems.

24997 ▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to FergusonDoesntUnderstandFacts, 1, #715 of 751 🔗

He doesn’t care about any such thing. It’s virtue signalling at its most blatant.
BLM don’t care about black lives. If they did, they’d be more interested in improving the lives of black people by encouraging stable relationships, marriage, improving education, having more police not fewer, etc. Instead they want to blame everyone else, mostly white people, and talking about ending capitalism, white patriarchy, etc. It’s all Marxist propaganda.

131851 ▶▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Lms23, #716 of 751 🔗

This is from the BLM “what we believe” page:


No-one in Government, councils or TV has answered me when I asked them what the following meant:

“We make our spaces family-friendly and enable parents to fully participate with their children. We dismantle the patriarchal practice that requires mothers to work “double shifts” so that they can mother in private even as they participate in public justice work.

We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.

We foster a queer‐affirming network. When we gather, we do so with the intention of freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking, or rather, the belief that all in the world are heterosexual (unless s/he or they disclose otherwise).”

I think it means that they hate familiies, they want to live in a commune like state and want everyone to be homosexual but not too sure.

24594 ▶▶ matt, replying to kh1485, 1, #717 of 751 🔗

Link, kh? If this is true, then I think I might be almost as angry about it as I am about lockdown.

24600 ▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Edna, 6, #719 of 751 🔗

Oh. Fuck. Off. Sadiq. Khan.

Sorry. I normally mind my language, but…

24601 ▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to matt, 3, #720 of 751 🔗

I think those were my exact sentiments. I mean it’s not like there is anything else serious going on at the moment. Re-writing history … oh dear …

24613 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to kh1485, 8, #721 of 751 🔗

No, you’re right. This is clearly the most important issue of our time and it obviously makes perfect sense and is a completely reasonable use of the unlimited resources we currently have available and is not in the least tiny bit really sodding insulting. Nor is it doctrinaire and luckily it doesn’t ride roughshod over the opinions of the majority of the voting public.

24618 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to matt, 3, #722 of 751 🔗

I believe he has set up a Statue Diversity Commission … words fail me …

24619 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to kh1485, 5, #723 of 751 🔗

Yes,I saw that in the LBC link. That definitely makes it OK. As long as there’s a commission, it’s bound to be completely balanced and fair and the results will be in no way following an agenda.

24599 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to matt, 2, #724 of 751 🔗

Yep, me too. As Edna posts below, I heard it on LBC …

24853 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to matt, 1, #725 of 751 🔗

Only almost??? The hilarious thing is that the little woke fascists seem to think that this will only offend the over 50s… Really? So there are young people out there who all of a sudden have forgotten about their granddads fighting in WW2?, whilst they decided to write ‘racist’ on Churchills statue.

I really don’t think they know what’s coming for them.

25000 ▶▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to ianp, 1, #726 of 751 🔗

Unfortunately, I’m not seeing anything coming for them. They will just get away with this.

24605 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to kh1485, 3, #727 of 751 🔗

I’d say they’re trying to whitewash history but it’s not very PC.

24632 ▶▶ Mark, replying to kh1485, 6, #728 of 751 🔗

What they really want is a Year Zero and reeducation camps for people like Nigel Farage who have the temerity to point out the truths they hate to hear and want it to be outright illegal to even mention.

24647 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Mark, 3, #729 of 751 🔗

Yes, this turn of events makes me very, very uneasy (well, that’s an understatement really). I had to turn Nige off when one caller suggested that plaques should be put on buildings/statues to educate us on their origins. He appeared to agree with the woman, worryingly.

131855 ▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Mark, #730 of 751 🔗

Ah well I meet him there then and some of you lot as well.

24663 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to kh1485, 3, #731 of 751 🔗

Next it’ll be books.

If this becomes nationwide policy I am *definitely leaving this godforsaken country.

25004 ▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to Farinances, #732 of 751 🔗

Where will you go where they’re not doing the same thing?
I only know of the Visigrad nations, who are standing up for their own people, much to the fury of the EU and the woke brigade.

24700 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to kh1485, 2, #733 of 751 🔗

Yet another useless twat who has done bugger all for knife crime and all the assorted problems we have here in this metropolis. God help us!

24991 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to kh1485, 1, #734 of 751 🔗

It’s not insanity. It’s about not allowing a crisis to go to waste. The far left seized upon the death of George Floyd as an excuse to protest, and hopefully damage Trump’s election chances. Khan has done much the same, i.e. to further his own political ambitions, and to help destroy British culture and history.

25080 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to kh1485, #735 of 751 🔗

People that can’t do their jobs properly normally tinker with other issue to look better

24572 Margaret, replying to Margaret, 2, #736 of 751 🔗

Does anyone know where I can find the latest number of hospital admissions with Covid, the number of positive tests for today and the numbers still in intensive care, please? At one time, the MSM would be shouting the numbers from the rooftops but I can’t find it on Sly News or the Biased Broadcasting Corporation. Is there a reason for that do you think???

24576 ▶▶ Biker, replying to Margaret, 2, #737 of 751 🔗

have you looked down the side of the couch?

24580 ▶▶▶ Margaret, replying to Biker, #738 of 751 🔗

What a good idea! Thanks!

24583 ▶▶ matt, replying to Margaret, 1, #739 of 751 🔗


ONS has more detailed data, but it lags. NHS has more detailed death data, but it’s less user friendly

24574 Hoppy Uniatz, replying to Hoppy Uniatz, 18, #740 of 751 🔗

On Sunday I cycled across London and had to weave through a placard waving mob in Parliament Square, I got through by ringing my bell and calling out loudly and sourly “Scuse me, scuse me,” but by the time I got to Vauxhall Bridge I was trembling with rage and it took a bit of pedalling to calm down. What sanctimonious Hypocrites these people are, tens of thousands of elderly people die in horrible conditions in nursing homes, I expect some of those old people were black because basically, we all get old, and not a squeak from the wretched Woke brigade, then suddenly they see videos of looting in America and it’s “ooh let’s do that too to show what good people we all are.”

Anyway hopefully I’ve calmed down now. With any luck there will be no obvious spike from the protests and the government will quietly decide they can lift all the restrictions at once, in fact I bet that’s what they’re hoping for.

24634 ▶▶ Hoppy Uniatz, replying to Hoppy Uniatz, 3, #741 of 751 🔗

Yes, that’s about it, but I didn’t know there was evidence that young woke people had been calling for an end to lockdown. Apologies if I have missed this. Please can you post a link?

24846 ▶▶ ianp, replying to Hoppy Uniatz, 2, #742 of 751 🔗

I do feel the government are giving the looney leftists enough rope and they will hang themselves soon enough (if they haven’t done so already to be fair), but it’s a complete trial of my patience at the moment have to say, on top of the bloody lockdown

24577 swedenborg, 11, #743 of 751 🔗

Many years ago, I heard this from a hospital administrator involved in planning new wards for geriatric patients. They had to rebuild the wards for the patients and during these repairs all patients were transferred to other empty wards nearby in other parts of the hospital. The same staff followed the patients. No virus around. But 10 % of the patients just died after the move. The death certificates were the same typical diseases, just many more of them in a shorter period. There must be some unspecific factor around that any change of circumstances for these patients will increase their risk of dying.
This must have happened also in Italy. Lots of the care-homes in Lombardy had Romanian nurses. When the Italian government suddenly started discussing lockdown and blocking the borders the Romanian nurses fled home being afraid to be locked inside Italy. The care of the elderly suffered enormously and when Covid-19 came into the homes the death rate spiraled higher but was quite high already because of the malfunctioning of the system. I suspect that even well thought hygienic rules like facemasks, new plastic aprons, closing down certain areas etc unfortunately would be a dramatic change of status quo for these patients which by itself could result in higher mortality. These patients have on average 6-9 months to live and any stress in any form could lead to their demise.

24639 Tenchy, replying to Tenchy, 2, #744 of 751 🔗

Looking for something to do until the government graciously grants us the privilege to go to the pub again? Well how about settling down to a few episodes of that superior comedy Little Britain?


Don’t even think about it from now on!

24845 ▶▶ ianp, replying to Tenchy, 2, #745 of 751 🔗

I’ve had enough of this shit now. The direct debit to the BBC has got cancelled, lets see what they do

24694 Nobody2020, 1, #746 of 751 🔗


“Satellite data suggests coronavirus may have hit China earlier: Researchers say surge in cars at hospitals may indicate outbreak in fall”
Nothing conclusive but interesting bit of info.

24696 swedenborg, 3, #747 of 751 🔗


This nice graph shows the R number for UK, Sweden and Germany. They all follow the same pattern and dips below 1 before the full lockdown. The exponential increase stopped before the lockdown.

24780 Anonymous, #748 of 751 🔗

Hi, Is “Guardian journalists prepare to stampede on discovering a trainee reporter doesn’t support the BLM movement” referring to a specific Guardian article, or is this hypothetical?

24985 Victoria, replying to Victoria, 2, #749 of 751 🔗

Twitter Censorship – the saga continues

  • The documentary, “ Plandemic ,” is undoubtedly one of the most widely banned videos of all time. Across the board, the film has been banned from social media platforms and hidden by Google. Google Drive has even deleted the film from private Google Drive files

  • Knut Wittkowski , Ph.D., DSc, an epidemiologist and former head of biostatistics, epidemiology and research design at Rockefeller University, has also been widely censored. His video, in which he challenges the wisdom of lockdown orders , was removed by YouTube after garnering nearly 1.5 million views

  • YouTube ’s CEO has gone on record saying they will censor anyone speaking against the World Health Organization . This despite the fact that WHO has been severely criticized for its handling of other pandemics, including the 2009 swine flu pandemic

  • YouTube has also been caught automatically deleting comments insulting the Chinese Communist Party

  • Twitter now falsely labels any and all Mercola article links as unsafe and malicious, warning potential readers my site might steal passwords and other personal data, or install malware on your computer — a tactic that decreases views by about 95%. This is absolutely false . On the contrary, my site is now set up to protect all readers from Google’s intrusive data mining


25668 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Victoria, #750 of 751 🔗

Mercola is a great site!

25418 mjr, #751 of 751 🔗

i see the NHS is now promoting a self congratulatory celebration day for next month .. after killing all the oldies in care homes, killing countless hundreds in the future by not continuing with cancer treatments and leaving us with millions of outstanding out patient appointments, and worst of all appearing as such simpering morons thanking their Uber drivers in that advert..?

well they can just go an f*** themelves


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172Farinances13, -1, 0, 2, 2, 14, 8, 4, 11, 0, 2, 2, 5, 9, 1, 1, 1, 1, 0, 0, 15, 1, 1, 2, 0, 1, 17, 0, 5, 0, 2, 0, 1, 0, 1, 4, 9, 1, 11, 4, 19, 3
169Gracie Knoll55, 37, 28, 49
164Bart Simpson4, 10, 18, 25, 6, 1, 1, 22, 9, 1, 11, 7, 3, 5, 2, 0, 0, 7, 5, 8, 2, 0, 4, 3, 2, 2, 2, 0, 0, 1, 1, 0, 2
117South Coast Worker109, 54, 15, 2, 14, 5, 8
108kh148512, 6, 1, 1, 31, 5, 6, 1, 0, 4, 1, 3, 8, 18, 3, 3, 2, 3
98Sceptique8, 0, 11, 7, 10, 13, 6, 4, 12, 4, 0, 4, 1, 2, 2, 4, 2, 3, 3, 2, 0
94swedenborg1, 11, 321, 1, 10, 3, 3, 6, 5, 3, 14, 1, 8, 2, 1, 1
93IanE4, 4, 4, 5, 0, 5, 7, 0, 7, 1, 2, 11, 4, 3, 5, 1, 2, 0, 8, 1, 3, 0, 4, 2, 5, 5
80mark baker25, 11, 4, 30, 10
72OKUK31, 3, 5, 2, 3, 14, 0, 0, 0, 9, 5
72John P144, 3, 0, 0, 7, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 2, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 2, 1, 0, 2, 2, 1, -1, 5, 1, 5, 0, 1, 0, 6, 1, 11, 4
69Poppy7, 4, 10, 13, 31, 4
67Cheezilla-1, 3, 0, 2, 1, 1, 8, -1, 0, 0, 0, 9, 0, 0, 0, 4, 4, 0, 13, 1, 4, 8, 4, 0, 0, 1, 6, 0, 0
63Tenchy11, 5, 2, 1, 13, 29, 2
62Tyneside Tigress3, 9, 8, 4, 1, 6, 2, 0, 9, 4, 4, 3, 3, 6, 0
58guy15317, 8, 11, 4, 0, 0, 3, 8, 0, 0, 1, 0, 6
57Laura35, 2, 8, 12
52Victoria29, 3, 6, 2, 0, 8, 2, 0, 0, 2
45Peter Thompson10, 1, 2, 32
45Biker16, 1, 4, 0, 13, 9, 2
44CarrieAH67, 12, 5, 2, 0, 0, 4, 3, 3, 2, 0
43Julian17, 6, 8, 2, 4, 2, 0, 2, 2
40Awkward Git180, 3, 0, 0, 1, 14, 4, 0, 0
40Nic5, 6, 0, 2, 2, 10, 1, 0, 0, 5, 7, 0, 1, 1
39RDawg2, 0, 32, 1, 0, 4
37Louise5, 2, 23, 7
37Bella Donna0, 2, 0, 1, 2, 1, 3, 2, 1, 0, 0, 3, 11, 1, 10
35Moomin28, 0, 0, 4, 3
34Adele Bull2, 11, 21
34TheyFoughtForOurFreedom18, -24, 5, 4, 7, 24
32Nobody202013, 6, 7, 1, 4, 5, 2, 3
32ianp4, 8, 3, 3, 2, 2, 0, 0, 3, 0, 2, 0, 1, 2, 2
2940967, 22
27Invunche10, 8, 9
26John Smith0, 6, 0, 9, 1, 2, 1, 5, 2
25Carrie15, 9, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0
24Mark11, 4, 3, 6
23Mark H11, 8, 2, 2
23Skippy14, 1, 3, 5
23wendyk1, 66, 10
23Edgar Friendly4, 3, 2, 2, 1, 4, 7
23Lockdown Truth0, 1, 2, 0, 3, 0, 17
22BrianJR14, 8
22Lms232, 2, 4, 4, 0, 7, 1, 1, 0, 1
21Hoppy Uniatz18, 3
21Montag Smith7, -4, 18
21Saved To Death7, 1, 0, 2, 3, 4, 3, 0, 1
19Stephen McMurray19
19Steve Hayes19
19Lou10, 9
19paulito5, 3, 1, 5, 4, 0, 1, 0
19Bella3, 1, 8, 1, 3, 2, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0
17Paul3, 7, 7
16ambwozere6, 5, 5, 0
16Tarquin Von Starheim1, 4, 0, 11
15JohnB43, 1, 7, 0, 0, -1, 1, 0, 0
14daveyp1, 7, 6, 0
13Barney McGrew1, 7, 5
12TJN03, 0, 9
11Splendid Acres5, 2, 4
11Sarigan5, 4, 1, 1
10Mike Smith10, 0
10Cruella3, 3, 0, 0, 4
8Jen0, 8
8mjr08, 0
7Bob5, 2
7Tim Bidie2, 0, 5
7Edna0, 0, 4, 3
6Snarly6, 0
6FergusonDoesntUnderstandFacts0, 0, 0, 2, 2, 1, 1
5Richard Dale5
4Ethelred the Unready4
4John Ballard4
4Anthony2, 2
4MoH2, 2
3arfurmo1, 1, 1
2Digital Nomad2
2Old Mum2
2Margaret2, 0
1Locked down and out1
1Jonathan Castro1, 0
1djaustin0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0Alec in France0
0David S0
0Sam C0
0OpenYourEyes0, 0
0Snake Oil Pussy0, 0