Last updated2020-06-11T17:09:47



26037 BTLnewbie, replying to BTLnewbie, 9, #1 of 1045 🔗

If this study https://virological.org/t/preliminary-analysis-of-sars-cov-2-importation-establishment-of-uk-transmission-lineages/507
(referred to in a James Gallagher article on the BBC site today) is to be believed, early quarantining of arrivals from Wuhan would have made no difference to the spread, as almost all the UK cases came from Italy? Spain and France.

26051 ▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to BTLnewbie, 45, #2 of 1045 🔗

I don’t see how you could stop the virus getting into a country like our’s. Perhaps you could do that in a country as small and remote as New Zealand, but not here. Protect the vulnerable and then let the virus do whatever it does and get population immunity. Then back to normal. No lockdown, no quaratining arrivals. And wasn’t all that obvious from the start?

26066 ▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to Mike Smith, 19, #3 of 1045 🔗

Indeed, which is why I get so annoyed when I see how smug Jacinda Arden is about ‘eradicating’ the virus in New Zealand, which is probably on of the most geographically remote countries there is and which has more sheep than people, and then the lockdownistas insist that we have to copy NZ and totally eradicate the virus, despite the fact that the UK is a global transport hub and incredibly densely populated.

I am aware that there are Asian countries which are also densely populated and big transport hubs who have managed the virus far better than the UK has but I wonder whether that theory about Asian societies having more cross-immunity from other coronaviruses (e.g. SARS, MERS) has played a part in that. There definitely seems to be an enormous disparity between how the virus has affected the West and the East.

26088 ▶▶▶▶ OKUK, replying to Poppy, 7, #4 of 1045 🔗

Yes. I agree. Take Japan – they didn’t go full lockdown. They have a huge aged population and lots of young & old households. They have a very low incidence of the disease, despite all their economic and travel contacts with China. There has to be some reason.

26238 ▶▶▶▶▶ Digital Nomad, replying to OKUK, 4, #5 of 1045 🔗

Taiwan, Japan and Vietnam have proven – beyond reasonable doubt – that lockdowns didn’t work. A flight ban would have, only if fully enforced with no exceptions. But Boris petrified of the Remainers citing that as proof of his isolationist tendency in the aftermath of Brexit. And that, in a nutshell, is why we are where we are.

26400 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to Digital Nomad, #6 of 1045 🔗

We only needed a sensible quarantine policy for new arrivals.

26437 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ South Coast Worker, replying to Digital Nomad, 5, #7 of 1045 🔗

Maybe they just proved that not lying about Covid caused deaths results in fewer numbers of covid caused deaths.

26399 ▶▶▶▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to OKUK, 1, #8 of 1045 🔗

There is: they quarantined all new arrivals to Japan.

27235 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ George Dance, replying to Nick Rose, #9 of 1045 🔗

… and to Taiwan.

26760 ▶▶▶▶▶ Tom Buffham, replying to OKUK, #10 of 1045 🔗

That’s because they all wear masks and whilst the government didn’t mandate lockdown as strictly the people there are more conscientious and reduce they travel voluntarily.

Take a look at the citymapper mobility index. Yes that’s Tokyo, Japan at the top of the list as having the fewest people moving:

Masks + less travel = less severe outbreak. Simple really.

26913 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Tom Buffham, 1, #11 of 1045 🔗

I think people here are pretty “conscientious” too. It hasn’t worked out that well though, has it?

26175 ▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Poppy, 9, #12 of 1045 🔗

MERS is mostly in the middle east (you quite often catch it directly from your camel) although they did have an outbreak in South Korea.

SARS1 however will likely give a lot of cross-immunity to SARS2, and there is a possibility that there was more exposure to that in Asia, although it’s likely it was also a global pandemic.

Taiwan are constantly on the lookout for nasty new viruses coming out of China and were aware of it (and telling the WHO who were ignoring them) long before anyone else was. If anyone knows how to actually stop one of these things spreading right at the start it’s them.

26185 ▶▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to guy153, 5, #13 of 1045 🔗

But I should add that there are going to be lots of other similar coronaviruses going around that haven’t been specifically identified. Unless a lot of people start dying you don’t notice these things.

The Singapore (and California) study both found cross-reactivity of T cells with SARS2 in about half of people tried at random which would have come from some mix of known and unknown coronaviruses.

So the level of cross-immunity might well be different in different places.

26560 ▶▶▶▶▶ grammarschoolman, replying to guy153, 2, #14 of 1045 🔗

you quite often catch it directly from your camel’

Like some STDs, then.

26714 ▶▶▶▶ Peter Forsythe, replying to Poppy, 4, #15 of 1045 🔗

Born in Japan, I live in HK, lived-worked in Asia 40+ years. We’ve also done well in HK, with “Lockdown Lite”.
Reasons (my take):

  1. We in HK have been very aware of viruses since SARS (2002). Wearing masks and disinfecting public places has continued widely since then.
  2. When we heard of Wuhan virus, we quickly upped the mask-wearing, distancing and disinfecting, even before the gov’t took action
  3. Government ignored WHO advice and closed borders with mainland. Then with other countries.
  4. Japan: They don’t shake hands (they bow, when they meet), they don’t live in multi-generation households (as Italy). I believe this is big reason for their low rates of infection.

We never locked down like the UK: only closed bars and gyms and only for a short time. Closed schools. Tested and tracked like crazy. Result: only four deaths, and pretty much zero new cases.
We’re always ignored when people look around how well places are doing, I guess because we’re China adjacent, and China = bad these days….
People ought to study how we did it. There’s lessons to learn.
By the way, I note no hint of second wave anywhere.
(And, btw, the NZ story is silly. It’s closer to Antarctica than anywhere…)

26769 ▶▶▶▶▶ watashi, replying to Peter Forsythe, 6, #16 of 1045 🔗

Sorry to disagree but Japanese families more often than not do live in multi-generational households, perhaps not so much in the big cities, but often out in the countryside. It s the eldest child s (plus family of eldest child) responsibility to live with parents and care for them. I (as wife of eldest son) would have had to live with his parents..unfortunately they died young..if we were still over there we would have had his grandmother live with us (as eldest son of eldest son it would have been his responsibility to care for her). I suspect diet, vitamin levels and less obesity have more to do with it.

27143 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ sam, replying to watashi, #17 of 1045 🔗

plus honest recording of deaths

27141 ▶▶▶▶ sam, replying to Poppy, #18 of 1045 🔗

maybe the UK is overcounting to justify the lockdown??

26313 ▶▶▶ BTLnewbie, replying to Mike Smith, 11, #19 of 1045 🔗

And presumably New Zealand has developed no immunity and will forever be looking over their shoulder, waiting for the virus to strike.

26698 ▶▶▶▶ sunchap, replying to BTLnewbie, 2, #20 of 1045 🔗

I wish you were our PM here in bankrupt NZ. All evidence seems to show that our death rate overall would be the same if borders had stayed open. A full lockdown raises deaths.

The bug probably went away here as 60% had cross immunity and it was summer. If open borders kill why has Belarus not had a holocaust. No extensive serological testing has been done to show that the remaining 40% have not had it.

26397 ▶▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to Mike Smith, #21 of 1045 🔗

Very obvious :o)

26697 ▶▶▶ sunchap, replying to Mike Smith, 4, #22 of 1045 🔗

Yes, as a kiwi and serf suffering under Comrade Ardern’s rule I am very sceptical of travel bans, particularly in economy’s like ours where tourism is 15% of GDP. Surely protection of the elderly and voluntary social distancing is enough?

The IFR of C19 is the same as the flu and itonly kills very sick 80 year olds. All the actual evidence shows it goes away at same rate even with no travel ban as in Belarus etc.

27097 ▶▶▶▶ Colin MacDonald, replying to sunchap, 1, #23 of 1045 🔗

In Scotland we suffer under comrade Sturgeon, at least for you Jacinda is a bit easier on the eye. But I am still royally sick of the Graunitariat touting Ahern as some kind of woke visionary entirely responsible for NZ “beating” covid 19. All the while they are silent about the fascist commander in chief next door, who achieved identical results. Fact is neither had anything to do it, NZ and Oz’s success comes wholly from their geographical isolation, in a Hemisphere opposite to China’s.

27145 ▶▶▶▶▶ sam, replying to Colin MacDonald, #24 of 1045 🔗

because it was summer and everyone’s vit D levels were high. The opposite in the northern hemispehere

26929 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Mike Smith, #25 of 1045 🔗

Exactly. That’s what Whitty and Vallance were recommending – till the baying MSM took over.

26063 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to BTLnewbie, 29, #26 of 1045 🔗

You cannot stop a virus unless you lock people up forever. We need to learn to live with it.
Most people will get over it quickly.

26244 ▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Victoria, 12, #27 of 1045 🔗

You mean live life anyway as living is risky?

Once you re born only 1 thing is certain – you will at some point die.

Trick is to enjoy to the fullest the time inbetween and make the most of it no matter how short it is.

26404 ▶▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to Victoria, 2, #28 of 1045 🔗

Once a virus has got into the population, you can’t control it. The chance for that has passed.

26702 ▶▶▶▶ sunchap, replying to Nick Rose, 3, #29 of 1045 🔗

I think your comment sums it up. Travel bans do not work once the bug is in.

Belarus has had only 250 C-19 deaths with 10 million people (from 50,000 “reported cases”) yet has had no border shut down. In New Zealand, with five million people, 500 die every year from the flu. No evidence has emerged that the Belarus figures are incorrect.

In other words, therefore, C-19 is less dangerous than the flu. If not named, C-19 would probably not have been noticed.

The maths shows, IMHO, why bans do not work. Bans do not work as it is impossible to “trace” those infected by carriers of an airborne, respiratory virus that starts infecting three days after you get it. Oh – what were the names of those 200 people at the supermarket? In addition 80% of carriers are asymptomatic.

The UK ONS figures indicate that 25% of “C19 deaths” had dementia and a similar percentage was over 86 years of age… A travel ban is not needed as the economic damage is too high given the very low risk of death and very high average age of death. C19 does not scare me.

26770 ▶▶▶▶▶ Tom Buffham, replying to sunchap, -5, #30 of 1045 🔗

It seems odd to be looking at Belarus as your paradigm. A dictatorship with the same man in power for 25 years and you’re highlighting how reliable their data is? North Korea is doing really well too.

Also Russia, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Ukraine have unilaterally closed the border to Belarus (not that that is easy to enforce). They aren’t releasing these depsite the fact they are opening to other countries around them.

Clearly those governments have less confidence in the Belarusian approach than you – but no doubt you feel better informed.

The less dangerous than the flu trope is ridiculous. The worst flu year in recent years 2014/15 for the UK led to just under 30,000 deaths. We’ve already surpassed that – and what percentage of the population do you think as contracted Covid-19?

It should’ve been stopped at the borders with proactive action but now it needs to be managed with HK, Singpaore, Japan-like precision. Track and trace properly, reduce movement and masks for all.

26877 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Tom Buffham, 3, #31 of 1045 🔗

Well, there have been other flu seasons that were a lot worse than 2014 if you go back a little further. On the evidence so far the present “pandemic” is not orders of magnitude more serious than others in living memory, yet the reaction to it has been unprecedented in the damage it has caused. I think the burden of proof has to be on those who think this virus merits the reaction it has provoked.

I can’t see much correlation between measures taken by various governments and outcomes, beyond those rare cases like NZ who closed their borders and who will need to remain closed forever, and beyond how well the vulnerable were protected as opposed to sent home to infect other vulnerable people.

26924 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ djaustin, replying to Julian, #32 of 1045 🔗

Not orders of magnitude, but the highest excess mortality since 1918/19. That in a population of which only about 6% have experienced the pathogen in the community. Even if one accepts herd immunity on about 25% (perhaps due to some cross immunity from other past corona virus infections), then the current epidemic is really only about a quarter through. I doubt if it was now left to run its course we would see 4x as many deaths (since we will now protect the most vulnerable much better with testing and quarantine of nursing home residents). But the situation is not really a great one.

One of the differences with past influenza epidemics is that we know that there is some previous immunity to infection severity conferred by past influenza infections. Only during a shift in [H]aemagglutinin or [N]euraminidase type (e.g. to H1N1 for swine flu) do things get really squeaky bum time. That does not appear to be true here, but the jury is still out. Most people seem to argue immunity based on their preconceptions of what they want for policy decisions. A long-term study (20 yrs) of the four other endemic coronaviruses in circulation gave a typical reinfection period of 30 months. We are six months into human experience. Is it any surprise how little we really know with confidence?

26953 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to djaustin, 1, #33 of 1045 🔗

Most people seem to argue immunity based on their preconceptions of what they want for policy decisions.”

I’m sure there’s some truth in that, as it’s natural to want to believe that your preferred course of action will turn out to have less bad consequences than predicted.

But I think a lot of people have different ideas about what is important and what they are prepared to sacrifice, and what they think a country should be prepared to sacrifice, to save a certain number of lives. If this virus had been around since the beginning of time, I tend to think we’d not be taking the approach we are now taking.

27249 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ djaustin, replying to Julian, #34 of 1045 🔗

Fair point. But what people forget is that very early in the epidemic, this new coronavirus virus could have been that deadly combination of common cold transmissible, but SARS-CoV-1 pathogenic (it is very similar genetically). Faced with that gravity, intervention was absolutely necessary. Now a few months on, SARS-CoV-2 looks much less pathogenic (thank goodness!), but it may well become the fifth circulating endemic coronavirus. For some, it’s definitely more than a cold. For others its nothing more than a modest or even asymptomatic immune challenge. For the other four coronaviruses, there is no lasting immunity, and time between reinfections about 30 months. We’re not even a quarter of the way through that cycle yet. Some perspective is needed. Witty has tried to provide that (if people notice).

If this virus had been around forever (like the other four viruses), then we definitely would not be acting as we are now – but much of this really is hindsight (OK only a couple of months but it is very early days). In three years time, we might have become comfortable living with the new virus, are able to manage infections better and protect the vulnerable with either passive immunity (which I work on) or vaccination (which I am skeptical of). Or we may have eradicated it completely.

I view this sacrifice as an absolute once-only action which was reasonable given the unknowns of the time, and late coming based on the evidence. But I expected the government to a better job of protecting the vulnerable and protecting the economically vulnerable too. They have manifestly failed in both of those aims. I completely understand why others feel different. I also try not to let my beliefs cloud my judgement, even though economically there will be some suffering in the family.

26935 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Nick Rose, #35 of 1045 🔗

Tell that to Matt and Boris!

26038 Invunche, replying to Invunche, 26, #36 of 1045 🔗

I was just having a rant about Professor Doom on yesterdays thread so narcissisticly thought I might as well pull it in here:

“Ferguson is as thick as two very short planks.

It’s evident in every absurd statement or prediction that he makes.

It’s not unusual for the odd thicko to make waves in academia but it is odd to do it in a place that has (had?) the prestige of Imperial.

I can only assume that he is a grant winning machine because he sure isn’t there for his insight.

From a comment yesterday and Kendrick has also indicated that this is the case


See, this is the problem when you introduce fees into academia and turn them essentially into businesses. You need to balance the books and need more investment to keep attracting students into paying those fees.

When this happens you end up with bad scientists with bad science doing dubious work for external “donors” but hey! They pays the bills!

This is all aside. Ferguson is clearly a fool and the government should never have had him anywhere near Sage.”

26115 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Invunche, 2, #37 of 1045 🔗

At least those of us in the arts can’t influence government policy that much. (In the short term anyway – I apologise profusely for intersectionality)

Scientists are now far too academicised rather than professionalised. Especially when you’re getting yor advisors directly from academia rather than industry.

26228 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Invunche, 4, #38 of 1045 🔗

The problem is that the do nothing model is merely an equation and to argue against it would require disproving the equation.

You could say that 100% of the population would never get infected and the simple counter would be “only if something was done”.

Perhaps this is why Ferguson has been around for so long because it’s just not possible to argue against an equation that has no real meaning in reality.

26231 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Nobody2020, 3, #39 of 1045 🔗

Exactly. It has echoes of the classic, “But, you can’t prove God ISN’T real….”

26407 ▶▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to Nobody2020, #40 of 1045 🔗

One equation to remember regarding science:


26250 ▶▶ Digital Nomad, replying to Invunche, 3, #41 of 1045 🔗

As Bill Gates’ viceroy, he is considered a ‘sage’ in equal measure by Imperial and the Johnson regime

26382 ▶▶ PastImperfect, replying to Invunche, #42 of 1045 🔗

NF funded by GAVI and Gates. Could explain a lot.

26442 ▶▶ South Coast Worker, replying to Invunche, 2, #43 of 1045 🔗

His grant winning machine is called Bill Gates

26040 GetaGrip, replying to GetaGrip, 23, #44 of 1045 🔗

Great to hear Toby carpet-bomb Nick Ferrari with evidence and facts on LBC radio this am.
Unfortunately NF clearly remains Lockdown +ve, and I think the problem will be that these folk are not receptive to a message which changes the narrative from one of self-sacrifice ‘we’re all in it together’ to ‘we got this completely wrong’.

26064 ▶▶ OKUK, replying to GetaGrip, 44, #45 of 1045 🔗

“We got this completely wrong. Wrecked our economy. Lopped off 11% of GDP puts millions out of work. Destroyed countless businesses. Condemned cancer patient to death. Hastened the lonely death of many elderly people deprived of contact with their family. And we still ended up with more deaths per million that Sweden or Japan. ” That’s a difficult message isn’t?

26939 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to OKUK, #46 of 1045 🔗

The truth can set you free – but it might be painful.

26512 ▶▶ grammarschoolman, replying to GetaGrip, 4, #47 of 1045 🔗

Not surprising from a station that’s just sacked Farage for telling the truth about Black Lives Matter.

26043 LGDTLK, replying to LGDTLK, 25, #48 of 1045 🔗

Great stuff again Toby. But sadly there is zero cut-through into the MSM.

Virtually all of today’s news leads with positive reaction Boris’ “bubble” policy and the chapter and verse reproduction of Ferguson’s latest doubling down bullshit.

The 5 minutes of so I can bear of the Today programme this morning had Nick Robinson interviewing the Labour health guy – Ashworth about Labours attitude to school closures.
His solution by the way was to open up unused civic facilities as temporary educational facilities – WTAF!

In amongst this however I noticed Robinson tossed in Ferguson’s latest doomsday predictions without any caveats. Seems it’s just become accepted wisdom.

For me it’s anger and despair in equal measure.

26052 ▶▶ Cruella, replying to LGDTLK, 16, #49 of 1045 🔗

I feel the same, what is the point of this analysis when MSM have all the control. They can say anything they want and it becomes true. I think Ferguson should be guillotined, he is a political, ideological non scientist.

26070 ▶▶▶ OKUK, replying to Cruella, 16, #50 of 1045 🔗

Which is why I suggested Toby should seriously consider crowd-funding a new radio (and maybe TV) station – one that can start on the internet. It could provide objective news, a broad range of opinions on all subjects, good music, drama and books, interesting talks etc. A bit like the old Radio 4 before it was made woke and PC-stupid. I really think that crowd funding exercise would raise a million in a month. I’d be happy to put up £100 and I am sure there are at least 10,000 others like me in the country desperate for someone to create a sane media outlet.

26078 ▶▶▶▶ Cruella, replying to OKUK, 2, #51 of 1045 🔗

As I read your message, I thought, you mean like the BBC is supposed to do. I think that’s a good idea, I’d contribute.

26083 ▶▶▶▶▶ OKUK, replying to Cruella, 3, #52 of 1045 🔗

Exactly. We shouldn’t have to pay twice over…but I think people who can afford it and are disgusted by BBC bias would support such a move to create a fair and balanced media.

26212 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to OKUK, 6, #53 of 1045 🔗

We don’t have to pay twice over. Stop watching live TV and using the BBC iplayer and you can stop paying the BBC. Seems to me quite a small sacrifice considering.

26295 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ OKUK, replying to Saved To Death, #54 of 1045 🔗

I’d like an alternative, apart from silence.

26311 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to OKUK, 3, #55 of 1045 🔗

I have not had a license for over 10 years and do not have silence. I have the internet. I no longer have netflix but used to I still do have amazon prime. You can even watch most good BBC content which is often made available on these services. I would prefer silence over the BBC news though ! but even then there is plenty outside the MSM to replace it.

As long as you are not watching the BBC content as it is broadcast or on the BBC iplayer you can still watch it on demand on other services without a TV licences. My 3 year old like octonauts which is available on amazon prime and is quite good.

26360 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to OKUK, 1, #56 of 1045 🔗

There’s this really cool thing nowadays, OKUK, called the interweb. Or something like that.

26396 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to OKUK, 1, #57 of 1045 🔗

Silence is much better for your sanity than BBC news.
Music is pretty good …..

26283 ▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Cruella, #58 of 1045 🔗

I’m in.

26259 ▶▶▶▶ sam, replying to OKUK, 5, #59 of 1045 🔗

There’s already UK Column

26337 ▶▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to OKUK, 1, #60 of 1045 🔗

UKColumn, David Icke, Jim Stone, X22 report, Corbett report and a few others I’ve seen over the months and years already try.

26401 ▶▶▶▶▶ Shep, replying to Awkward Git, #61 of 1045 🔗

‘last american vagabond’ is great on youtube or bitchute )

26520 ▶▶▶▶▶ Anon, replying to Awkward Git, 1, #62 of 1045 🔗

With respect, using David Icke as a source will immediately discredit your argument in the eyes of the general public. The data published by the ONS, PHE, and respectable scientists is far more credible and speaks for itself. Associating this with Icke (I’m not familiar with your others sources) will push people away. It would push me away.

26693 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ sam, replying to Anon, #63 of 1045 🔗

yes true but if you listen to what he has been saying its all suddenly coming true!
He talks about agenda 21 and agenda30
Has been interviewed by Brian Rose on London Real and the BBC had OFCOM remove the interview from you tube that day so he must be on to something!

26734 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Anon, 1, #64 of 1045 🔗

Forget the alien stuff but read, watch and research what else he has said over the years then ask how far off the wall he is.

26692 ▶▶▶▶▶ sam, replying to Awkward Git, #65 of 1045 🔗


26170 ▶▶▶ ianp, replying to Cruella, 3, #66 of 1045 🔗

Not all the MSM …. Certain ones are not changing their stance and we know who they are. Keep an eye out for seemingly out of the blue non lockdown/BLM related front page stories coming out too.

All very very weird until you start digging

26387 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Cruella, 4, #67 of 1045 🔗

To be fair, he should be sacked and forced to spend the rest of his life surviving on Universal Credit and witnessing the fruits of his genius.
Those who have employed him, or who consider employing him in future, should be guillotined.

26613 ▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Cheezilla, 2, #68 of 1045 🔗

Nah….Professor Lockdown should be made to re-enact Sisyphus for the rest of his life with the public allowed to pelt him with stones, rotten food, rubbish and milkshakes.

In my most uncharitable moments, he and Hancock should be executed. As the Code of Hammurabi has said “an eye for an eye” and so both of them should pay.

26942 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Bart Simpson, #69 of 1045 🔗

Actually, execution sounds pretty charitable to me, especially compared to your first option.

26417 ▶▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to Cruella, 5, #70 of 1045 🔗

The MSM, together with the Government, opposition parties and academia are jointly responsible for both the panic surrounding covid and the subsequent lockdown. Once people realise they’ve been “had”, and that their jobs or businesses have gone, that they are now unlikely ever to retire, that their children’s or granchildren’s education has been blighted irreparably, they will be angry. Very angry. Perhaps murderously angry.

There will be reckoning. If not this year, then next. But it will come.

26601 ▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Nick Rose, 3, #71 of 1045 🔗

Who’d have thought, in the days of the Nazis’ glory, that the leaders would one day be un the dock to answer for their crimes? At one time they seemed all-powerful, unconquerable. But a hempen collar fitted their foul necks just fine in the end.

26514 ▶▶▶ grammarschoolman, replying to Cruella, 2, #72 of 1045 🔗

Is there a statue of Ferguson we could chuck in the Thames?

26602 ▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to grammarschoolman, 1, #73 of 1045 🔗

Not yet. Give them time.

26217 ▶▶ Invunche, replying to LGDTLK, 8, #74 of 1045 🔗


Ignore the story. Thats nothing that was blatantly obvious months ago.

The comments however are a different story. All the top rated comments are livid with the lockdown and its effects now. This was inconceivable a few weeks ago.

A reckoning is a coming.

26424 ▶▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to Invunche, 14, #75 of 1045 🔗

I often comment on Guido Fawke’s blog. The day after the lockdown was announced, I posted denouncing the lockdown. I don’t think I got a single uptick (not that this bothers me, I don’t post to be loved, only to speak the truth as I see it). People slagged me off: a memorable one was somebody wanting to draw pictures in crayon to “educate” me. Eight weeks later, his view is almost 100% in line with my own (which hasn’t changed). The transformation in so many people is remarkable.

They are waking up. You are right: the reckoning is coming.

26532 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Nick Rose, 3, #76 of 1045 🔗

Well done Nick. When Boris said we shouldn’t go to the pub, off I went. Hadn’t been intending to, but sometimes one just has to stand up for principles …

26597 ▶▶▶▶ steve, replying to Nick Rose, 2, #77 of 1045 🔗

Criticising the gov on Guido site is a tough gig. It’s packed to the gunnels with half the cabinet Dominic Cummings and they can practically do no wrong.
I’ve posted aswell and there are a handful of sceptics there but it’s a tough crowd!

26603 ▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Nick Rose, #78 of 1045 🔗

I just upticked you. I’ll send you a signed printout if you like!

26612 ▶▶▶▶ John Lilburne, replying to Nick Rose, 2, #79 of 1045 🔗

I remember a story on GF praising Steve Baker’s “barnstorming” (or some such nonsensical word) speech in parliament during the non-debate about the new coronavirus law at the start of all this. I simply commented something like Baker is “worried about a libertarian dystopia, votes to implement it” and was roundly downvoted and even blocked, I think. I used to go to GF regularly but have since given it up since it has become an outright propaganda arm for the government. I popped in the other day and it doesn’t seem to have changed, but I wasn’t there very long.

26383 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to LGDTLK, #80 of 1045 🔗

Ashworth is incable of talking about cv without using the words horrific or terrible.
Words which would be better reserved for describing his shameless fearmongering.

26515 ▶▶ Anon, replying to LGDTLK, 2, #81 of 1045 🔗

There is increasing coverage in the mainstream media. The Telegraph in particular is full of lockdown scepticism, but I’m increasingly noticing articles elsewhere including one on The Guardian recently (their motive still being to attack Boris and co but from a different angle). It is filtering through, but it will take time.

26945 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Anon, #82 of 1045 🔗

If it’s finally creeping into the Grad, there may be light at the end of the tunnel.

26057 Sarah T, replying to Sarah T, 56, #83 of 1045 🔗

I am a doctor and I only found this site a few days ago. It is refreshing and reassuring to me to finally see viewpoints such as those posted on this site as the absolute crap we have been fed for months was making me feel very sick. Covid-19 seems to be fizzling out as every virus in history has ever done, despite lock-down rather than because of lock-down – much as many patients get better despite what we do rather that because of what we do!

26209 ▶▶ TJN, replying to Sarah T, 13, #84 of 1045 🔗

despite lock-down rather than because of lock-down

Yep, you’ve got it!

26213 ▶▶ Bella, replying to Sarah T, 11, #85 of 1045 🔗

Perhaps you could put in a word with my stupid doctor’s surgery which has closed its waiting room and insists on muzzles. Thank God I’m not ill. Well, if I was they’d run a mile.

26220 ▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Sarah T, 8, #86 of 1045 🔗

It’s not the first time I have read that when doctor’s go on strike deaths drop.

I recall reading that it has happened two or three times over the years in Germany and I found this today, same in Israel:


Makes you wonder why, other than for A&E which is really good when you are wheeled into it unconscious on a stretcher after a nasty accident, what the rest of the medical industry is up to?

From my experience if you could not be put into the correct tick box, given a pill for life or failing that have something chopped off or cut out then it is stumped.

You sound like you are questioning a career that you got into with all good intentions of curing lots of people and doing the best you can and are now questioning how it all works as the overbearing nature of it all takes over and people and individuals become a poor second to the system itself.

Apologies in advance if I have got it all wrong on how you are feeling as I’ve made these assumptions on one post on a website but your frustrations show through.

I’ve had a similar discussion with a GP over the years when sitting in on my wife’s consultations (and a couple of her specialists) – there is the official line they has to follow and spout from but they don’t really believe then the off-record “chat” afterwards about any things and how they think it is all wrong and they want out to follow his calling of actually helping people live healthier lives.

26285 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Awkward Git, 5, #87 of 1045 🔗

And, as Michael Flanders remarked in pre-MSM. days, ‘when there are no newspapers, nothing happens.’

26747 ▶▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to annie, #88 of 1045 🔗

Oh I remember Flanders and Swann – they were wonderful! I remember the “nothing happens, it’s marvellous!” remarks too.

26390 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Awkward Git, 1, #89 of 1045 🔗

National ill-Health Service.

26427 ▶▶▶ Marion, replying to Awkward Git, 6, #90 of 1045 🔗

over the last few years I have lost what little faith I ever had in doctors; I feel as if they finish their training and then never keep up to date or change their thoughts about what they were taught. The way they treat diabetics seem to me to be the proof of this, sticking to their advice to just go on and on eating carbs and upping the insulin to compensate for all the terrible consequences, and of course taking insulin for type 2 diabetes is problematic in itself. Statins are another example, in my opinion, over prescribed with bad side effects for some people. Having said that men like Dr Malcolm Kendrick, who has just emailed out his latest blog today about Covid, Dr Jason Fung and Dr Eric Westman are absolutely fantastic.

26749 ▶▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Marion, #91 of 1045 🔗

It’s why I trained in clinical herbalism, so that I could treat my own body if necessary. I try to eat a good diet with proper nutritious food, balanced vitamins and minerals. Lots of outside time, as I have a smallholding and grow my own fruit and veg. I’m not registered with a GP and haven’t seen a doctor for over 20 years. At 65 years old I am luckily still very healthy. This was following a conversation with a hospital consultant, when my mother asked him what was the best way to stay healthy. In all seriousness he replied “stay away from hospitals unless it’s an emergency!”
I do understand that so many doctors truly go into the profession to help, to be kind, to do their best, but sadly the system seems to wear them down in the end.

26460 ▶▶▶ PastImperfect, replying to Awkward Git, 1, #92 of 1045 🔗

Many doctors, particularly in the US go by the book – big pharma’s book.

26304 ▶▶ sam, replying to Sarah T, 3, #93 of 1045 🔗

off-guardian is another good site for doctors interviews

26312 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Sarah T, 8, #94 of 1045 🔗

Sarah, do please tell us what you have observed as a doctor working through this time – would be interested to hear!

26599 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Carrie, 2, #95 of 1045 🔗

Yes, do, and Toby, please highlight it. It’s important that we hear from doctors whose pbrains have nit been added by NHS poison.

26058 Will Jones, replying to Will Jones, 16, #96 of 1045 🔗

Nice one Toby, but you can’t let the SAGE scientists off that easily. Here are the key excerpts from the March 23rd SAGE meeting that show they were pressing for what we now call lockdown (emphasis added):

‘1. UK case accumulation to date suggests a higher reproduction number than previously anticipated. High rates of compliance for social distancing will be needed to bring the reproduction number below one and to bring cases within NHS capacity.
2. Public polling over the weekend on behaviour indicated significant changes but room for improvement in compliance rates . …
Case numbers in London could exceed NHS capacity within the next 10 days on the current trajectory…
21. Key areas for further improvement include reducing contact with friends and family outside the household, and contact in shops and other areas.
ACTION: SAGE secretariat to share SAGE paper from behavioural scientists on options for increasing adherence to social distancing measures with CCS and HMG Communications leads.’

I don’t think it’s hard to read between the lines here and see this is a group very worried about where things are going and urging more radical action. I imagine the paper with ‘options for increasing adherence to social distancing’ shared with the government that day may well have prompted the (unexpected) move in the evening to house confinement to reduce contact ‘outside the household’.

I appreciate you want the government to carry the can for this, and rightly so. But the scientists are up to their neck as well. It’s true that prior to March 23rd they were being less firm and clear, but they were on a journey, and by March 23rd they have clearly become super-scared and super-cautious.

26118 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Will Jones, 5, #97 of 1045 🔗

I was going to say something similar. Even though the committee may not have used the words “We recommend lockdown”, they presented such apocalyptic ‘evidence’ that the government felt it had no alternative.

26120 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Will Jones, 6, #98 of 1045 🔗

I’m with you. I’m broadly in agreement with Snowdon but think the minuted AFTER March 18th need to be considered. It is likely the SAGE talking heads were also swayed considerably by doctor doom. – They stopped short at recommending full lockdown but the language used here is certainly projecting urgency. Not exactly a call to arms but certainly a polishing of the trumpet in readiness.

26148 ▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Will Jones, 2, #99 of 1045 🔗

And don’t forget that after Cummings pressed for a ‘lockdown’ at the 18 March SAGE meeting (his presence is conveniently not stated, of course) the group did not meet again until 22 March, the day before the ‘lockdown’ announcement:

As hinted at in the SAGE Minutes for 16 and 18 March, the HMG decisions were being made elsewhere. By people who were not following the science .

Two separate sources familiar with the meeting said Mr Cummings had pressed for lockdown measures to be introduced more quickly.

Johnson’s Top Aide Pushed Scientists to Back U.K. Lockdown

Our surmise is that Cummings reports directly to Sedwill. Do not believe that Boris Johnson is in charge of anything now, if he ever was.

26171 ▶▶ TJN, replying to Will Jones, 3, #100 of 1045 🔗

Some good points on this thread.

Toby and the others are probably narrowly correct when they say SAGE did not, as a minuted conclusion of their meetings, directly propose the lockdown. But that doesn’t mean to say the decision was entirely political. As I’ve posted here before, we need to allow for whatever private discussions the government may have been having with Ferguson and his cohorts. My feeling – no more – is that such private discussions were indeed taking place, and that Ferguson et al were pushing for as draconian measures as possible, up to and including lockdown. (As evidence that Ferguson was advising the government privately, I was struck by Sherelle Jacobs’ Telegraph column last week, 4 June, in which she said Ferguson is still(!) advising No. 10.)

Such a scenario would fit with the general drift of SAGE opinion, as illustrated in the quotes Will Jones gives here.

As I’ve written here previously, it is clear to me to me that many academics, with direct and indirect links to SAGE, have been entirely happy with the concept of lockdown; and it is difficult to read the Imperial College paper of 16 March and not surmise that, although hesitant to make such a draconian and unprecedented proposal at that stage, the authors would have been enthusiastically supportive of the Prime Minister’s announcement a week later.

I think Will’s conclusion is broadly correct: some scientists are up to their neck in this. Certainly it’s far too early to exonerate them.

26265 ▶▶▶ sam, replying to TJN, 6, #101 of 1045 🔗

all the academics happy with lockdown are funded by the Gates Foundation
Imperial to the tune of $288m, LSHTP $363m, etc, PHE $9m, etc
Gates has called for a ‘zero carbon’ world and to vaccinate the whole world and reduce its population. Microsoft is working with the vaccine alliance on surveillance systems and then there is ID2020.org

26282 ▶▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to sam, 7, #102 of 1045 🔗

Yep you got it.

All roads lead back to Bill gates or George Soros.

26468 ▶▶ PastImperfect, replying to Will Jones, 1, #103 of 1045 🔗

by March 23rd they have clearly become super-scared and super-cautious.” But by late April they must have known that the predictions were wildly excessive.

26059 PD, replying to PD, 20, #104 of 1045 🔗

Sherelle Jacobs skewers the government for relying upon Fergie’s dubious modelling.

This is not the first time the public have been sent into a state of alarm by the government (particularly the Scottish devolved govt) and MSM who report models as scientific certainty.
Recent use of models as fact have been the reporting of the climate emergency, the economic impact of Brexit and now Fergie doubling down on his model for the ‘rona.
Whenever these models are held up to closer examination they prove to be only speculation formed in the image of the modellers personal bias.

26082 ▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to PD, 9, #105 of 1045 🔗

Or indeed, those who pay the modellers! The ‘science is settled’ mantra of Climate Change of the Blair years was followed closely by the systematic removal of funding and the associated opportunities for academic advancement, for any such scientist who did not agree. Hence the ‘97% of scientists’ agree that Climate Change is man-made – they reside in the same echo chamber of ‘you just have to believe’ to pay the mortgage. But, times change. We now have the 17 year-old daughter of a film producer and singer/actress with no formal education to guide us through Climate Change, so no need for the 97%. Guess what, some of them have turned up in other fields – take a look at the wider ICL research agendas!

26317 ▶▶ BTLnewbie, replying to PD, 6, #106 of 1045 🔗

Can we please stop use by the term “model” – it is correctly spelt “muddle”.

26060 Victoria, replying to Victoria, 5, #107 of 1045 🔗

What is science?

“The Government claimed to be relying on ‘the science’. In practice there is no such a thing. There are competing views from eminent scientists about the nature of the virus, how it is spread and how effective various measures are against it” Comment by Roger Bootle

26485 ▶▶ PastImperfect, replying to Victoria, 1, #108 of 1045 🔗

Yes, but the problem is they only listen to those in the echo chamber and not to people like Wittkowski, Ioannidis, Cahill, Mikovits et al.

26061 Victoria, replying to Victoria, 46, #109 of 1045 🔗

Open all Schools immediately.

26162 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Victoria, 7, #110 of 1045 🔗

And so say all of us!

26288 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to IanE, 14, #111 of 1045 🔗

Aye. And with no bollox about s.d.

26172 ▶▶ Fiat, replying to Victoria, 4, #112 of 1045 🔗


26245 ▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Victoria, 8, #113 of 1045 🔗

With the proviso – without restrictions.

27060 ▶▶ Basileus, replying to Victoria, #114 of 1045 🔗

I just suggested that the school where I teach should have the lightning conductors tested since they represent a greater risk to the pupils’ life than the virus.

26068 Invunche, replying to Invunche, 23, #115 of 1045 🔗

I think, and have always thought, that the lockdown was to protect Boris’s image.

This is the guy that “promised” 350 million a week for the NHS.

Not a good luck then if a few months into his Premiership patients start dying on stretchers as the NHS gets swept up by this killer virus (that Boris clearly never understood). So he panicked and ordered the lockdown to be sure that didn’t happen.

Ferguson is just a useful idiot in all this. His hopeless model giving Boris the excuse to order lockdown and make sure that the catastrophic worst case scenario didn’t happen.

Of course it was a drastic over reaction.

But then this what happens when you let a hack journalist with narcissistic disorder run the country. Especially when he has a advisor like Cummings who apparently has a slender grasp of science.

26090 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Invunche, 16, #116 of 1045 🔗

Many people have pointed this out – it was all about the NHS and now its become a full blown religion, any hopes of reforming it will be doomed to failure. Even any future enquiry into this shambolic mess will whitewash any failures that the Church of the NHS presided over this sorry saga.

26142 ▶▶▶ Invunche, replying to Bart Simpson, 10, #117 of 1045 🔗

I think support for the church might plummet soon.

They’ve not really done a great job of keeping deaths per capita low.

They’ve abandoned all other care.

Plus I have a sneaking hunch that the virus was nosocomial and that the early spreaders were consultants coming back from their skiing holidays.

26221 ▶▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to Invunche, 11, #118 of 1045 🔗

People are immune to evidence and reality it seems. All they have to cling to is their new religion I am not sure they are prepared to let go any time soon regardless. Perhaps I am feeling overly negative at the moment but I see little real reason for hope.

The NHS has been pretty catastrophic for many people well before this yet here we are clapping on command and treating the NHS as some godlike organisation that can do no wrong.

26319 ▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Invunche, 3, #119 of 1045 🔗

We can only hope that’s going to be the case because I still see a lot of people putting NHS banners on their social media accounts.

26429 ▶▶▶▶▶ Marion, replying to Bart Simpson, 6, #120 of 1045 🔗

And rainbows and nhs stickers in shop and other businesses windows. It’s like thanking a bully for kicking you to the ground.

26443 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Marion, 2, #121 of 1045 🔗

You’re right, of course. But it’s just people trying to tap into the zeitgeist and get people to like them

26614 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Marion, 2, #122 of 1045 🔗

There are times I want to do a Captain von Trapp and rip those rainbows away.

26470 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Invunche, 2, #123 of 1045 🔗

I think, and have always thought, that the lockdown was to protect Boris’s image.

That would be a reasonable hypothesis, except we’d then have to believe that much of the rest of the world simultaneously plunged itself into lockdown and economic destruction, in order to protect Boris.

I’m also concerned that the foot-dragging we’re now witnessing regarding our release is not just about face-saving.

27082 ▶▶▶ Hopeful, replying to Cheezilla, #124 of 1045 🔗

The real danger will come from what’s being done by government under cover of covid19. I’m trying to understand information from numerous sources, excluding BBC and msm and government briefings; my gag reflex can’t cope with their propaganda. I spread the fact-based alternate view wherever I can. I give financial support to advocates of the truth such as Toby when I can. The work to overcome this nonsense, I’d even call it wickedness, must continue, must be supported. No time to be a wimp.

26077 PD, replying to PD, #125 of 1045 🔗

This dishonest handling of the ‘pandemic’ begs a number of questions:
Are the problems we now face too great for a democratically elected government to manage?

Do we need a more paternalistic society with technocratic stewardship by neo-Marxist woke ‘managers’?

Will the government just step down to enable this to happen?

If not, can a Marxist mob be mobilised (enabled by woke useful idiots)?

Will mob be prevented or discouraged by police, local government or MSM?

26129 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to PD, 5, #126 of 1045 🔗

Do we need a more paternalistic society with technocratic stewardship by neo-Marxist woke ‘managers’?

A very good definition of Common Purpose.

26234 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Awkward Git, 2, #128 of 1045 🔗

Hilarious. Cheered me up, that. 🙂

26289 ▶▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to JohnB, #129 of 1045 🔗

Pity the MSM are not reporting it.

26340 ▶▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to JohnB, 1, #130 of 1045 🔗

I try to keep the country’s moral up best I can.

26357 ▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Awkward Git, 1, #131 of 1045 🔗

My morals are of course impeccable. My morale is always grateful for a boost though, AG. 🙂

26735 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to JohnB, #132 of 1045 🔗

Not wearing my glasses and predictive text got me yet again.

26487 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Awkward Git, 2, #133 of 1045 🔗

Before I read the second link, it had occurred to me that they’d put themselves in a position where the police could easily just cordon them in and wait for them to capitulate. The police didn’t even need to bother!

Mind you, frankenfood and soy. Poor things, no wonder their intellect is impaired.

26223 ▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to PD, 2, #134 of 1045 🔗

Are we not there already, I am not sure what better a job a marxist mob could do to destroy everything and pave the way for totalitarian communist rule. It seems to me that’s what the conservative party is now.

26080 OKUK, replying to OKUK, 24, #135 of 1045 🔗

I say as a full on Boris supporter for many years that his leadership vacuum has come as a great disappointment. He should not be trying to maintain this impossible balancing act between saying the virus is deadly but, on the other hand, get back to normal…while he tells us to obey a confusing ever-changing array of rules and while the government demonstrates they will not apply the laws on social distancing and gatherings to Far Left violent protests.

Totally confusing!

The message I think should now be one of stoicism…along the lines of “We have weathered the storm, protected the NHS, now we must face the future with courage and resilience…go forward in a spirit of optimism…We will maintain bans on mass gatherings for some months but for most activity, we urge a return to normality. Now wash your hands.” Something more like that is required now. And really it’s surprising how little Public Health TV advertising there is. There should be upbeat stuff: this is how you protect yourself.

26225 ▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to OKUK, 4, #136 of 1045 🔗

I don’t think we should at this stage be trying to imagine how our politicians can weasel their way out of this – they must be held to account.

26493 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Saved To Death, #137 of 1045 🔗

After we’ve been freed from dystopia, if you don’t mind.

26490 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to OKUK, 1, #138 of 1045 🔗

Don’t you mean: We protected the NHS at the cost of tens of thousands of lives. We also trashed the economy. So wash your hands and get back to work – and be quick about it!

26491 ▶▶ PastImperfect, replying to OKUK, #139 of 1045 🔗

And rescind all the lockdown laws immediately.

26690 ▶▶ djaustin, replying to OKUK, #140 of 1045 🔗

Elect a clown, get a circus. The message should be sorry we failed to protect the vulnerable.

26084 Awkward Git, replying to Awkward Git, 29, #141 of 1045 🔗

As I’ve just tried to post in the Daily Fail’s comments:

Funny that – at the beginning of this pantomime farce they were saying that the lockdown was to slow the spread and save the NHS from being overwhelmed. Then it was to wait for a vaccine. Now it was to cut lives. Sorry you cannot have it all ways. They are talking absolute B@$loc*(s to cover their backs now it’s all falling apart) as the lockdown is killing more people than the 10000 he has quoted and this is just the beginning of the collateral deaths. Look at the ONS breakdown on deaths recently. Total unwarranted and unjustified destruction of the economy and society. When oh when will the Daily mail and the rest of the MSM stop being copy and paste writers (cannot call them journalists anymore) or teleprompter reading talking heads? Where are the independent and challenging and questioning MSM? It’s long gone an dis now just propaganda broadcasting narrative following mouthpieces.

Short answer -NO, there was no science to follow. Just panic and fearmongering.

26092 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Awkward Git, 16, #142 of 1045 🔗

They keep on shifting the goalposts because they know that this has been an unmitigated disaster. They should have been lifting lockdown and not bothered with antisocial distancing as soon as those reports about the empty Nightingale Hospitals and hospitals being idle started to trickle in and were verified.

But no, they’re content to further trash the economy and store major problems for their beloved NHS because they can’t admit that they panicked and made a colossal mistake.

26502 ▶▶▶ PastImperfect, replying to Bart Simpson, 2, #143 of 1045 🔗

I reckon they are supporting Gates and Fauci who are in the race to get a vaccine (untested, of course) to help reduce the population. The government gave £8.8 Billion to GAVI – a Gates organisation.

26144 ▶▶ Nic, replying to Awkward Git, 5, #144 of 1045 🔗

Daily mail tell down right lies ! Shocking paper

26247 ▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Nic, 3, #145 of 1045 🔗

It is but fi you can get through the censors on the “umdoderated” comments it’s fun to wind up the trolls and get the real people thinking.

I worked with someone who only comments on the Daily Mirror and only puts in his comments things to delibertly wind everybody up – good on him.

26091 Ian, replying to Ian, 22, #146 of 1045 🔗

What I would like to know is, where is the second spike, uptick, big increase in Covid cases following the actions by all those selfish and unthinking people who dared to take their family to crowded beaches and parks in the sun two weekends ago?…….

26124 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Ian, 9, #147 of 1045 🔗

I was listening to Pam Popper yesterday – apparently the Floridians tested almost everyone on one of the smaller beaches (dunno how, they must have taken their details before they allowed them on the beach) at spring break. They found that only ONE was infected with Covid. ONE. And of course they didn’t know where they’d been infected – but if it was beach, you’d expect way more than one, no?

26103 Edgar Friendly, replying to Edgar Friendly, 6, #148 of 1045 🔗

Let’s Hope Ferguson says something ill-advised or insufficiently woke about BLM and is forced to resign. It’s about the best chance there is of knocking this pin-head off his lofty perch.

26153 ▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Edgar Friendly, 6, #149 of 1045 🔗

ICL is funded by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.

26248 ▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 7, #150 of 1045 🔗

So is Whitty, Vallance, Fauci, Birx, WHO and many more.

26543 ▶▶ Geraint, replying to Edgar Friendly, 2, #151 of 1045 🔗

Tell him what you think…his email is on the Imperial College website. I did, he even bothered to reply!

26106 Edgar Friendly, replying to Edgar Friendly, 9, #152 of 1045 🔗

I think i will move to Russia if this nonsense goes on for much longer.

26126 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Edgar Friendly, 16, #153 of 1045 🔗

Hilariously, Russia is now less communist the the UK.

26132 ▶▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to Farinances, 3, #154 of 1045 🔗


26208 ▶▶▶ RDawg, replying to Farinances, 3, #155 of 1045 🔗

My gf lives there. I would say we are now on a par with Russia, however Russia now seems to be opening up a lot faster than the U.K.

26229 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to RDawg, 1, #156 of 1045 🔗

I suppose they tore down all the statues already.

Or did they?

26164 ▶▶ ambwozere, replying to Edgar Friendly, 7, #157 of 1045 🔗

I think an alternative planet would be a better option currently.

26273 ▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to Edgar Friendly, 4, #158 of 1045 🔗

Also considering just becoming a tramp as it seems preferable to trying to fit in with the inverted morals of modern society.

26290 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Edgar Friendly, 4, #159 of 1045 🔗

I know a tramp ( not a good word really, he’s a sweetie) who is living happily through the current junk panic – in a converted NHS ambulance.

26127 OKUK, replying to OKUK, 12, #160 of 1045 🔗

There are points at which lockdown and Covid merge as cause of death in my view. A lot of old people who became sick with Covid were being denied the support of their relatives in face to face meetings (screen contact is no substitute for the elderly) because of the lockdown. I think a lot of older people who would have recovered with the support of their families became disconsolate and simply gave up. It might have little effect on the end of year excess deaths figures since they would have been close to death in any case but they might lived a little longer were it not for the lockdown destroying their morale. I’m not suggesting there was any “right” answer here but it is facile to presume that the lockdown “protected” the elderly by depriving them of direct contact with their families.

26277 ▶▶ sam, replying to OKUK, 9, #161 of 1045 🔗

I’ve seen plenty of very elderly people die in hospital due to neglect by the staff. They often get very disorientated when ill which appears as dementia but they recover when they get back to their house.

26498 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to sam, 4, #162 of 1045 🔗

A lot of mental confusion in the elderly is actually caused by dehydration.

26529 ▶▶▶▶ OKUK, replying to Cheezilla, 4, #163 of 1045 🔗

Yep, that’s something else they don’t bother about in hospital…

26526 ▶▶▶ OKUK, replying to sam, 4, #164 of 1045 🔗

Yes, I’ve seen that myself with a relative – (unpalatable) food just being left, no help with spoon-feeding – and I once saw a nurse a criticise a 95 year old for failure to respond to a question shouted across a busy ward! How stupid was that nurse!! Care homes generally offer much, much better care.

26590 ▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to OKUK, 8, #165 of 1045 🔗

I knew a lady who had to go to hospital with advanced Parkinson’s. Nurses dumped meals on her bedside table. ashe couldn’t feed herself. An hour or two later the untouched food would be taken away.
In the end, her husband came in for every meal and fed her.
The NHS is a god a truly worthy of any zombie’s worship.

26744 ▶▶▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to annie, 3, #166 of 1045 🔗

The night nurses left my elderly mother hanging half out of bed unable to right herself due to her broken hip. Her throat was on the rails of the bed and she could hardly breathe. The three other patients in the room kept buzzing and eventually a nurse popped her head round the door crossly and told them to be quiet, they were in their tea break and would come later! The nurses didn’t help feed my mother or even give her a drink. I had a dreadful fight trying to get mother’s painkilling medication to take with me when I discharged her, but eventually I got her out of there, complete with inoperable broken hip, and took her back to her very lovely nursing home, and helped nurse her for the following 30 days until she passed away. No, I won’t clap for the NHS. Sorry.

26751 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to CarrieAH, 1, #167 of 1045 🔗

Me neither (though, mercifully, it has stopped for now but I think it will be resurrected on some sort of anniversary shortly). Sadly, there are so many instances of the horror your mum and you experienced. As far as I am concerned there should be a special place in hell for the nurse who was allegedly ‘caring’ for my mum.

26501 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to OKUK, 5, #168 of 1045 🔗

Yes. Despair induced in the old folks and the poor families having to stand by helpless.

26134 mj, 12, #169 of 1045 🔗

I’d like to present the preliminary antibody test results from my country, India.
Initial surveys have shown that the covid infection could be 100-200 times more widespread in most of the hotspot areas in Delhi and Mumbai.
CFR in these cities is around 3 percent. Our IFR is somewhere between 0.01 percent and 0.03 percent.
And, we had one of the harshest lockdowns in the world!

26136 HawkAnalyst, replying to HawkAnalyst, 1, #170 of 1045 🔗


Ignore Neil Ferguson’s guesswork – the post-mortem on Covid-19 is best left until this is all over

The trouble comes when reporters, or politicians, see one study which suits their purposes and promote it as if it were scientific truth, beyond all challenge. Ferguson’s claim was reported in Wednesday evening’s news bulletins as if it were evidence that the Earth is spherical – that you would have to be loopy to deny it.
There is a still a huge amount we have to learn about Covid-19 and about the success or failure of various measures which have been employed to combat it in different countries. Why, for example, has Japan had such a low death rate when it has neither gone into lockdown nor carried out a huge amount of testing?

26152 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to HawkAnalyst, 9, #171 of 1045 🔗

But…. It IS all over!!

26278 ▶▶ sam, replying to HawkAnalyst, 5, #172 of 1045 🔗

Over 95% of “COVID Deaths” recorded in England and Wales had potentially serious comorbidities, according to statistics released by NHS England.The latest figures make for pretty stark reading. Or, rather, they would make for stark reading…if they didn’t follow the exact same pattern already shown in other nations around the world.
You can read the full report here . We’re going to focus on the comorbidity stats. Here are the number of deaths where Covid19 was listed as the only cause, split by age:

26137 Edgar Friendly, replying to Edgar Friendly, 3, #173 of 1045 🔗

Just read through the UC Berkeley letter. I agree with almost all of it, though have to say he makes some serious glosses as to causation. But nevertheless, well put. It’s sad he is afraid to speak publicly. You’d think the firing of a ‘person of color’, if he actually is of that background, would be a big no-no at the moment, whatever their views. Of course, then he would just be accused of having internalised the narrative of his oppressors, and be sent to the re-education camp.

America is going to hell in a hard-cart, and like a faithful old pup, we follow our exciting intrepid master to the bitter end, though that end be full of nasty things and pins and glowering eyes in the darkness.

26718 ▶▶ Masqueless, replying to Edgar Friendly, #174 of 1045 🔗

Would love to read it but it seems the thought-police have got there first. Anyone have another link?

26138 Colin Robinson, 4, #176 of 1045 🔗

All of which suggests the virus runs its’ own course, regardless.

26143 Tom Blackburn, replying to Tom Blackburn, 11, #177 of 1045 🔗

16-17% of 4,000 hospital staff have tested positive for antibodies. When is our government going to ‘fess up about the nosocomial transmission of this infection? – each day prevaricating is costing lives and to protect what? – an idea, a policy, a career. Sort it out Boris


26150 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Tom Blackburn, 19, #178 of 1045 🔗

Basically we could all be walking around with it asymptomatically without even realising (as most people seem to), and it would make fuck all difference to the mythical R because no bugger else would either – and it would also crucially not make a difference to deaths either unless we all decided to spend our leisure time kickin it in the local hospital or care home.

The fact that people still believe breathing around other healthy people is a biohazard is absolute stark staring madness.

26155 ▶▶▶ Tom Blackburn, replying to Farinances, 10, #179 of 1045 🔗

Agree. The narrative needs to change to – is the virus endemic yet. Suneptra Gupta mentioned having non-biased risk assessments completed by non-partisan statisticians. I think European nations should have a scientist swap. See what other nations make of our data and vice versa. Knowing our luck we’d get Professor Ferguson sent back ‘return to sender’

26585 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Farinances, 2, #180 of 1045 🔗

The zombies don’t believe that there are any other healthy people.
Rationality levels well below those of the average slug.

26513 ▶▶ PastImperfect, replying to Tom Blackburn, #181 of 1045 🔗

I understand that if people have antibodies then they are immune and no longer spread the disease. Hence part of herd immunity

26157 tinxx, replying to tinxx, 22, #182 of 1045 🔗

I sent this comment through to Toby earlier as part of a broader piece on email but wanted to add the summary part to the discussion here.

Lab Rats…

I share the frustrations of many in regard to Lockdown but in listening to the 10 Downing Street press conference yesterday, I recognised for the first time what might really be going on and so I am writing this directly to you in the hope of extending the idea to a wider audience.

What has become apparent is that we are not being “led” by the Science – we are being controlled in the name of it and this ties directly into your recent piece regarding the moving flags on the calendar of lockdowns. When Chris Witty made the ad-hoc comment that we are not even half way through this pandemic in yesterday’s briefing, he gave the game away. His added explanation in regard to the bubbles being limited to one other, one-person household, confirmed it. Even though it started in February and peaked in March ( before lockdown) the only reason for suggesting that we are not even halfway through is that they see the need to treat the WHOLE curve of the Pandemic as the event under control. A look at any of the charts showing the distribution of recorded cases or deaths confirms that this is a massively positively skewed distribution, with a very long right-hand tail. Indeed, we are already in the tail of the distribution, which means that not only is the “magic R” number meaningless but that it is highly unlikely that we will ever see a second spike from this event. Nevertheless, the careful unlocking steps continue. Why? Because we are now part of a data gathering experiment. The authorities are changing things one variable at a time and monitoring the response on a rolling two week basis. Relax a restriction, collect data, calibrate model. Rinse and repeat. My suspicion is that one of the reasons for abandoning the next phase of school reopening was that the scientists were worried that their “data” might be distorted by the protests over the last few days; that they would not be able to separate the impact of school re-opening from the impact of non-distanced protesting (it is highly likely that young protesters would have returned to family groups with school age children in them). This is probably the same reason for not abandoning the 2M guidance yet. Covariance analysis. The slightly exasperated response to the 2M question – that it wasn’t the science that dictated it but a risk assessment – was another clue to suggest that these measures are being relaxed as part of another, bigger picture. What the scientists want is to have a complete, correlated data set – extending out until the end of the curve – in order to better calibrate their models for the future. I can understand why they might want that but I don’t see why they should be allowed to collect it at everyone else’s expense.

The benefits are easily argued to the assembled politicians – especially when the likes of Neil Ferguson are allowed to present their “facts” in such a disingenuous way and seek to blame any negative outcomes on those same politicians that they are advising. So long as we don’t realise what is happening, we just scratch our heads and say “Why is Boris doing this?” This is why. We are not coming out of lockdown to try and recover from its disastrous consequences because we are less important to the scientists than the perceived benefits to epidemiological science of having the experiment run through to its conclusion. Someone needs to tell the Politicians that the game is up. We are lab rats in an experiment not of our choosing and that we will no longer accept it. If they want an excuse to change course – just simply state that R is under 1 and has been for 12 weeks. Declare victory. Suggest that we would be prepared to reintroduce restrictions if it went back above 2 (statistically almost impossible to achieve) and move on. Cut social distancing to 1m and put all schools back into action. Migrate all of the COVID-19 hospitalised patients into the Nightingale Hospitals and treat them as full quarantine hospitals. Deep clean the NHS and restore normal working.

Easy when you think about it.

26159 ▶▶ IanE, replying to tinxx, -1, #183 of 1045 🔗

Hmm, I think that is one conspiracy theory too much!

26163 ▶▶▶ tinxx, replying to IanE, 6, #184 of 1045 🔗

I would not suggest this is a conspiracy – it is simply how (I believe) the scientists consider it “best” to exit lockdown: step-by-step and data driven. There is no doubt that they would want to have the data if possible and unless told otherwise, they will seek to manage us out of this in exactly this manner. Ask SAGE what the effect of unwinding any single measure would be and they will say – that they don’t know as they have no data. Ask them two weeks afterwards they have unwound a measure what the impact HAS been and they will be able to tell you – so long as they can control the “experiment” for other variables.

26165 ▶▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to tinxx, 4, #185 of 1045 🔗

Your mention of ‘data-driven’ makes me think that Cummings has a hand in all of this as well.

26180 ▶▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Poppy, 1, #186 of 1045 🔗

Yes, please see my other post on here about Cumming’s attendance at SAGE meetings.

26210 ▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to tinxx, 1, #187 of 1045 🔗

Ask SAGE what the effect of unwinding any single measure would be and they will say – that they don’t know as they have no data.”

Well they have access to some scientists with an apparently very sophisticated model with thousands of lines of code, that attempts to simulate the behaviour of an entire country, on the basis of whose predictions we got into this mess in the first place. So, no, they don’t “know” but previously they “predicted”, and also seem to “know” how many lives they have saved. So wouldn’t it be reasonable to suppose they could use their model to predict the effects of lifting various restrictions? They can’t have it both ways.

26174 ▶▶ Anthony, replying to tinxx, 6, #188 of 1045 🔗

The data collected will be thoroughly distorted by the fact that huge numbers of people are ignoring official advice and are probably many steps ahead in their own ‘easing of the lockdown’ than what the scientists are recommending.

26205 ▶▶▶ tinxx, replying to Anthony, #189 of 1045 🔗

Perhaps, but it is all about what can be controlled to produce the best experimental conditions possible. I am sure that the DC issue is seen as a noise factor that led to an uptick in activity but they clearly try and control for that using all of the Apple maps and google data on traffic volumes etc. The idea of variable control would also explain the reasoning behind otherwise indefensible the 14 quarantine nonsense: It is exactly the response one would need to see if you were going through the relax, record, update – rinse and repeat process of easing out of lockdown.

26315 ▶▶ matt, replying to tinxx, 5, #190 of 1045 🔗

Actually, this brings together 1) one of the reasons that yesterday’s briefing depressed me as much as it did and 2) an exchange I had today with djaustin on yesterday’s page.

I came away from yesterday’s briefing feeling exactly as you did – like a lab rat. It was an interesting insight, I suppose.

Djaustin made a comment in response to my “what the hell is actually going on” post that made it clear that this is the only way that the scientists can behave and the only advice they can give the government (I oversimplify grossly)

So we’re back to following the science.

Problem is, _only_ following the science is a stupid way to run a country.

26672 ▶▶▶ djaustin, replying to matt, #191 of 1045 🔗

I don’t disagree with that last point! Scientists can only advise one part of the decision-making. Politicians decide, and should rightly take on other considerations – notably the economy, education, welfare…

26323 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to tinxx, 1, #192 of 1045 🔗

Has anyone watched the video of event 201? (the pandemic plan one done last autumn; think that is what it was called?) How does this compare to that?

26509 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to tinxx, 1, #193 of 1045 🔗

I worry that this is a dry run for the real thing – and I dread to think what that may be.
They are clearly playing with us, seeing how far we can be pushed – and in some cases the distance is shocking.

26160 Jockyboy, replying to Jockyboy, 2, #194 of 1045 🔗

You say: ‘the trajectory of the pandemic has followed almost exactly the same pattern in every country it’s afflicted, regardless of whether or not that country locked down, when it locked down or the severity of the lockdown it imposed’. Israeli mathematician Isaac Ben-Israel suggests that the virus follows a 70 day course and disappears in every nation, whatever the measures taken. What reason then lies behind the UK’s second equal rating with Spain under Belgium in the European per capita of population deaths-from-Covid league? Is it down to lack of testing, care home mismanagements, standard of medical care, ethnicity, obesity, underlying health, climate, star sign or a mixture of all the above? Or in the absence of a vaccine or an effective intervention drug, will all nations end up with the same per capita death rate in the end?

26198 ▶▶ Toby Young, replying to Jockyboy, 7, #195 of 1045 🔗

That’s a good question and I don’t know the answer. I suspect it has to do with the number of infected people that have entered the country since the beginning of the year (we didn’t impose controls until Monday, remember), as well as the discharging of infected elderly patients from hospitals into care homes, and the lack of treatment available to those infected in care homes. I also suspect we’re more scrupulous about not under-counting “deaths involving coronavirus” than other-countries, and, for that and other reasons, have ended up over-counting.

26276 ▶▶▶ Nic, replying to Toby Young, 2, #196 of 1045 🔗

I think physical fitness obesity etc makes a big difference thsts why we are doing so poorly over half the uk population is overweight or obese

26522 ▶▶ PastImperfect, replying to Jockyboy, #197 of 1045 🔗

How about over counting the c-19 deaths?

26670 ▶▶ djaustin, replying to Jockyboy, 1, #198 of 1045 🔗

Sweden provides the obvious endemic counterfactual. And most likely a picture of the UK post-lockdown. Low (<100 cases/day) mostly in hospitals and nursing homes, with perhaps 30 deaths/week.

26168 mhcp, 15, #199 of 1045 🔗

The fundamental problem is you are arguing around figures that are attributed to something that has not been established – namely we know there is a SARS-COV-2 strain (because it was being studied in Wuhan) but we don’t know what it does when in humans.

The analogy I give to people is called The Santa Clause [sic] and it is a great demonstration of the difference between science and the ethical application of scientific findings.

Say the mayor of London decrees that all houses inside the Circulars (A406) have to re-tile their roofs with expensive non-slip tiles costing £500 per square foot. The reason: so that Santa Claus and his reindeer don’t slip off the roof and cause a health and safety incident and incur the liability of not delivering presents.

Now, I expect you’ll probably laugh at this. But just for a moment consider the arguments IF you assume certain qualities about Santa Claus and his reindeer.

So let’s assume them. Maybe you don’t need to tile the whole roof, just the chimney? Do you need to worry about reindeer as they fly anyway, so any incident will self-correct? Is it justified to impose such a penalty if the risk of Santa falling is minute? It’s not like he’s got a track record for that.

And on it goes.

In the scientific method (as many here will know) your conclusions are consistent as long as your assumptions and methodology is. And as long as you don’t extrapolate beyond the scope of such an exercise.

Assuming certain qualities about Santa Claus is the realm of Theoretical Science.

Now, imagine the mayor ACTUALLY imposed this. You’d think he/she was mad.

Because you can see that key assumptions do not justify the REAL WORLD action. This is the field of Empirical Science, and further Engineering, Quality, Safety and Auditing. The application of an idea. It is also where the Ethics of science comes in.

Theorists rarely deal with Ethics. So imagine what happens when it is assumed that we have a virus that causes respiratory problems above and beyond the flu/cold. But this has not been demonstrated with minimum assumptions, the test is not a gold-standard test with low uncertainty and the range of declared symptoms cover a lot of other known ailments.

You have a Santa Clause.

And what has happened is that all actions have been taken based on reacting to it.

It is still “science” but it is not “ethical”.

26178 Awkward Git, replying to Awkward Git, 3, #200 of 1045 🔗

In case TJN doesn’t go to yesterday’s comments but to today’s in answer to their query on the 77th brigade:

Good description of them:



MP Tobias Ellwood is supposedly the independent oversight of them for the Government but he is actually a reserve Luitenant Colonel in the 77th Brigade so not exactly neutral nor independent is he?

From here:

“A former army officer with the Royal Green Jackets, now a proud reservist with 77th Brigade”

26181 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Awkward Git, 5, #201 of 1045 🔗

It boggles my mind that this stuff is real. I thought this kind of chicanery was reserved for the ‘security’ services

26187 ▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Farinances, 10, #202 of 1045 🔗

It appears to be correct. Look at UK Column and their links to Cabinet Office documents. Those who say a coup has taken place are right. The virus, although real, was always planned for. That is why Johnson cannot sort this out. Parliamentary Democracy is as good as over. I’m off now to cook lunch and fashion a new tinfoil hat…

26193 ▶▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 6, #203 of 1045 🔗

My wife wears a tin foil hat – really, not joking. Works wonders. And no I’m not upset as 10 years of trying to find out why she was ill meant I was on there receiving end of some pretty horrendous “you are a nut” type comments.

She suffers from electromagnetic hypersensitivity so has a special baseball cap with silver material weave through it (a small faraday cage) she wears when she can feel the neighbour turn on his hi-power wifi in every room work from home whatever he uses.

Affects more people than you think but they just put it down to being under the weather or being a bit off or some malaise and so on.

26202 ▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Awkward Git, 1, #204 of 1045 🔗

Hi Awkward, just wondering, can electromagnetic hypersensitivity cause the sufferer to hear a very low-level hum? Just asking because this is what I have experienced where I live. For the past few weeks I have turned off my own WIFI hub and I have noticed that (despite all this crap) my sleep is far less disturbed. It hadn’t occurred to me, until I read your comment, that my neighbour’s WIFI might also be a contributory factor in this.

26226 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to kh1485, 1, #205 of 1045 🔗

Yes, we’ve had the same eperience. Since we turned off the Wifi hub at night, after reading in various places that they can give off harmful emissions, I sleep a lot better. I’m not aware of any hum but I’m probably going deaf anyway.

26237 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, #206 of 1045 🔗

Thanks Miriam, that’s useful to know. Currently looking at ways to get rid of WIFI in my home as I’ve never liked the idea of it.

26302 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ sam, replying to kh1485, 1, #207 of 1045 🔗

also ssita.org.uk

26351 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to kh1485, 3, #208 of 1045 🔗

I use a wired connection but for the wife to read the news on her tablet at night before sleeping I use a Netgear wifi extender by her side of the end. She turns it on, reads what she wants then turns it off.

26300 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ sam, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 1, #209 of 1045 🔗

see wifiinschools.org.uk for info

26517 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to sam, 2, #210 of 1045 🔗

Thanks, Sam. Useful information – children must be getting a massive wifi overload at the moment (including our grandchildren!) I’ll send this on. . . .

26286 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to kh1485, 2, #211 of 1045 🔗

Simple answer – yes.

26298 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ sam, replying to kh1485, 1, #212 of 1045 🔗

yes its the Adey affect, google Ross Adey

26222 ▶▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Awkward Git, 2, #213 of 1045 🔗

Hi AG, this is really interesting and I meant no offence at all to any real wearers of tinfoil hats.

My good wishes to your wife.

26356 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 3, #214 of 1045 🔗

She is getting better but it has been along hard uphill struggle as non-one believes it exists – until they research if for themselves and find out how common the symptoms are.

26361 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Awkward Git, #215 of 1045 🔗

I had exactly the same thing. Whenever I mentioned it to anyone, I got a smirk and ridicule. Really, really grateful for all the info’ Glad to hear your wife is a little less troubled by it.

26700 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to Awkward Git, #216 of 1045 🔗

There are two frequency ranges used by wifi standards at the moment 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz. Have you tried to see if there is any difference between these two frequencies?

26299 ▶▶▶▶▶ sam, replying to Awkward Git, #217 of 1045 🔗

why not shield your house from the neighbour?
powerwatch.org.uk have a company that sells paint from Germany

26355 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to sam, 1, #218 of 1045 🔗

Looked at that and know someone who used it – really cut down the EMFs in his house. Unfortunately with my business destroyed I cannot afford the £3000 or so it would cost to paint just the bedroom to give her somewhere to hide at the moment.
The Memon plug-in, the hat and the blanket she wraps herself in at the moment are working and she has improved drastically in the past 6 months.

26701 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to Awkward Git, #219 of 1045 🔗

What you are trying to do is create a faraday cage. People create them for different purposes for example if you wanted as a DIYer to do some EM testing. Perhaps if you look into DIY faraday cages you might find a cheaper and more effective method then a fancy paint.

26521 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Awkward Git, #220 of 1045 🔗

Wow. Glad she found something to help mitigate the effects.

26329 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, #221 of 1045 🔗

Any particular edition of UK column where that info was broadcast?

26347 ▶▶▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Carrie, #222 of 1045 🔗

It was first done about 2 weeks ago and been mentioned nearly every podcast since.

26367 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Awkward Git, 2, #223 of 1045 🔗

Thanks, AG, you beat me to it! They broadcast every Mon, Weds and Fri at 1pm (UK time). They include lots of notes and references with each show. Yesterday’s edition was particularly good with more on to the Cabinet Office’s coup. Their argument is compelling.

26450 ▶▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, #224 of 1045 🔗

I think were going to need to start deploying the copper foil things are so bad.

26519 ▶▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Saved To Death, #225 of 1045 🔗

Yes: I wish it weren’t so.

26190 ▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Farinances, 8, #227 of 1045 🔗

There is a lot of frightening stuff out there that is hard to believe is true, it’s a dark, deep hole you go down if you start digging.

This virus and lockdown just the tip of the iceberg.

26224 ▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Awkward Git, 2, #228 of 1045 🔗

Bang right!

26195 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Farinances, 1, #229 of 1045 🔗

The secret squirrels are part of the military. Their acronyms give it away somewhat. 🙂

26518 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Farinances, 1, #230 of 1045 🔗

They are the security services.

26192 ▶▶ StevieH, replying to Awkward Git, 3, #231 of 1045 🔗

I seriously suspect that there are a few of them infesting the Telegraph BTL comments sections.

26528 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to StevieH, 2, #232 of 1045 🔗

I suspected the same. Adam Hill is an obvious one.

However, I can’t decide if so many of the Torygraph readers really are so self-righteous and smug, or if it’s young trolls laughing their heads off as they write such revolting bollox.

26200 ▶▶ TJN, replying to Awkward Git, 4, #233 of 1045 🔗

Thanks AG – I generally do check previous comments threads when they are still live, and have seen your post on that video – strange and disturbing stuff, yet surely not suppressible in the long term?

As an aside, perhaps this site could have a general comments page, not linked to one day’s newsletter, as some of the topics are worthy of being discussed over long period, which they don’t tend to be at present.

I didn’t know about the 77th. Really, on here? We should all be flattered.

One way out would be for the up/down votes being identifiable against posting names (as on The Spectator site). By being able to link votes to actual posters it would be much easier to identify if the votes were by trolls, especially if that voter’s previous comments were also visible. As Toby often says, sunlight is the best disinfectant.

26272 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to Awkward Git, 1, #234 of 1045 🔗

“For example, following the Syria airstrikes, the unit identified that a number of false narratives from alternative news sources were gaining traction online”
I’d love to know what they considered to be “false narratives.” From what I’ve read since, in the Independent newspaper, and other news sites, the false narrative was that it ever happened in the first place.

26582 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Lms23, #235 of 1045 🔗

False = The Independent disagrees.

What is that rag supposed to be independent of, BTW? Common sense,obviously, but what else?

26327 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Awkward Git, #236 of 1045 🔗

Is a serving MP actually allowed to still remain in the military?

26343 ▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Carrie, 1, #237 of 1045 🔗

He’s a reservist – the Territorial Army – and yes you can be in the TA and continue your normal work and get paid for the time you go to the parades, exercises, training etc and your employer cannot stop you.

26179 kh1485, replying to kh1485, 2, #238 of 1045 🔗

The latest from the BBC, this time re. rugby league. Next, they’ll be stopping the game every time a player handles the ball so it can be disinfected.

Scrums could be temporarily scrapped when rugby league makes its expected return in the UK in August.
Super League clubs have been advised outlawing scrums for the rest of 2020 may help dramatically reduce the risk of the spread of coronavirus in games.
Medical experts told the Rugby Football League’s Laws Committee that scrums are responsible for a large proportion of face-to-face interactions in matches.
How a game would restart in their absence has not yet been resolved.
Super League, Championship and League One clubs have been asked for their feedback before an RFL board meeting in early July, when the change is likely to be rubber-stamped.

26271 ▶▶ Nic, replying to kh1485, 5, #239 of 1045 🔗

Just ban team sport
That’s what they want.

26699 ▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to Nic, 2, #240 of 1045 🔗

Perhaps instead we need to ban ‘medical experts’ from dictating how people should live their lives.

26338 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to kh1485, 8, #241 of 1045 🔗

Medical experts told the Rugby Football League’s Laws Committee that scrums are responsible for a large proportion of face-to-face interactions in matches.

They know a fucking thing or two, these medical experts don’t they ? 🙂

26534 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to kh1485, 1, #242 of 1045 🔗

Surely, they’d have to change the name to wimpball or something.

26579 ▶▶ mjr, replying to kh1485, 1, #243 of 1045 🔗

But of course Aussie NRL has just restarted this week. Empty ground but no stupid changes in scrums. Typical UK overkill

26958 ▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to kh1485, #244 of 1045 🔗

WTF and that is swearing.

Just go the whole hog, hazmat suits for all players. Officials can officiate using Zoom from home.

A side benefit of this is that the referees and flag men (lines men?) can enjoy watching the game on TV from a comfy chair at the same time they are officiating.

26189 RDawg, replying to RDawg, 34, #245 of 1045 🔗

What has happened to the world in 2020?

– All white people are now systemically racist, privileged supremacists that perpetuate the slavery of black people.

– Covid-19 is the deadliest disease known to Mankind. More deadly than cancer, heart disease, obesity, dementia and all road traffic accidents combined.

I mean, really?!

26194 ▶▶ ambwozere, replying to RDawg, 22, #246 of 1045 🔗

It’s very sad, I was sat in a meeting at work yesterday (actually in an office with other people) and some of the talk came on to people remote working and perhaps some staff who are better working in teams weren’t so suited to remote working and that in future perhaps it would be better to employ people who prefer working on their own.

I was sitting there thinking how can online contact ever replace physical human contact and interaction? For me it just doesn’t work, at least not long term. We’re naturally social beings being forced to live apart from each other.

Makes me feel sad.

26266 ▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to ambwozere, 9, #247 of 1045 🔗

Many people meet their spouses at work. That’s going to be impossible if everyone works at home. Maybe that’s the whole idea.
I think it’s depressing too. It can be more productive to work at home, but it’s not something you’d want to do all the time, especially if you’re young and single.

26537 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Lms23, 6, #248 of 1045 🔗

Yes. A lot of people’s social lives are enjoyed with their workmates.

26270 ▶▶▶ Nic, replying to ambwozere, 13, #249 of 1045 🔗

We ate programmed to survive in groups
Iam on my own and really suffering

26478 ▶▶▶▶ Shep, replying to Nic, 1, #250 of 1045 🔗

I am hearing you so you are not alone.

26533 ▶▶▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to Nic, 1, #251 of 1045 🔗

Yup, we are, and I know how you feel.

26576 ▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Mike Smith, 6, #252 of 1045 🔗

At least you’ve got us. Our hearts are with you.
I know it isn’t much, but…

26969 ▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to RDawg, 1, #253 of 1045 🔗

@RWawg I think The UK is being particularly stupid.

Other European countries seem to be pushing to return to normality, here in the UK *we are trying as hard as possible to make the return to normal as slow and complex as possible.

  • By we I am referring to the powers who are driving this thing.

26201 HawkAnalyst, replying to HawkAnalyst, 3, #254 of 1045 🔗

Number waiting over year for NHS treatment trebles


NHS England released waiting time statistics this morning showing that 11,042 people had been on the waiting list for more than 52 weeks in April, up from 3,097 in March. Overall the number of people on the waiting list fell to 3.94 million, down from 4.2 million a month earlier. This was driven by a sharp drop in referrals.

Only 491,934 people were referred for treatment in April, down 60 per cent from 1.2 million in March. The figure for April last year was 1.7 million.

26236 ▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to HawkAnalyst, 2, #255 of 1045 🔗

This might help explain what’s happening to our new national religion. Notice ‘NHS Reset’ is now a brand:


Edited highlights:

A delay in returning to the inspection regime of the CQC to take into account the positive changes that have been achieved as a result of the lighter touch approach to regulation that has been in place during the pandemic.

Putting in place an ongoing arrangement with the private sector – this will be vital to provide capacity to respond to the backlog of treatment .

A call for assurance that there will be a fully operational and robust test, track and trace system, as well as appropriate supplies of personal protective equipment (PPE),as services are resumed

As you are all aware, and incredible as it may seem, according to ‘HMG’ we are still at Alert Level 4 of the ‘Pandemic’, so:

Level fourThe virus is not contained, with the R number above one in at least some areas. However, as is the situation now, hospitals would be able to cope with the levels of admissions.
Likely response: Nationwide lockdown imposed by the Government, with the vulnerable shielded and those who can work from home asked to do so. During the UK lockdown , Britain has been at this level. However, Alok Sharma, the Business Secretary, said on Sunday, May 17, that the UK would soon be able to move to level three  in ‘careful steps’.

Level three (orange)The number of new infections would not be increasing significantly. The reproduction rate, or R number , would be below one, meaning that each infected person is transmitting the infection to less than one other, on average.
Likely response: Partial lockdown, although with significant relaxations compared to level four.

26232 ▶▶ Snake Oil Pussy, replying to Steve Hayes, 7, #257 of 1045 🔗

This is grounds for arresting the PM for murder.
Wakefield Police where are you?

26263 ▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, 2, #258 of 1045 🔗

The question is whether any minister or advisor in government made that decision, or whether it was Prof. Whitty, or Public Health England.

The same decision was made by various Democrat governors in the U.S., where care home deaths were up to 50% of the total.
There does seem to be a far left agenda at play here. Why is our government instituting the same policies as the far left nutcases in the Democrat party?

26545 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Lms23, 1, #259 of 1045 🔗

Whoever suggested it is reasonably irrelevant. Surely Boris is CEO and carries the can for the decision that was executed.

26268 ▶▶▶ Nic, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, 1, #260 of 1045 🔗

Is he alive?

26292 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, 6, #261 of 1045 🔗

I think there should be a a ‘Care homes trial’, and that it should be for murder.

26552 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to annie, 2, #262 of 1045 🔗

Probably been posted before – but this woman is holding the government to account for care home deaths. High Court tomorrow, apparently.


26565 ▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to JohnB, 1, #263 of 1045 🔗

Thing is – blame where blame is due – it was NHS and PHE policy of clearing out beds and sending the virus into care homes that caused the problem. Compounded by care homes – largely private businesses – having staff with no training in disease control. HMG struggles with PPE didn’t help, but they weren’t the root cause of the problem.

26235 ▶▶ mhcp, replying to Steve Hayes, 2, #264 of 1045 🔗

That’s basically what I’ve been saying. There is a book called The Shadow Economy that highlights this effect, where the reaction to or even adaptation in preparation of a theorised event, or a small preliminary event, causes more damage than what the theorised event would do.

The example given was that China didn’t need to sell a large amount of US treasuries. It would only need to sell maybe 5% at most. The inferrence of what this means and the risk mitigation would cause a massive sell off from others and hence become a self-fulfilling prophesy. It was wargamed about 10 years ago.

It’s also like that Billy Connolly joke about dogs humping. A dog would hump a bitch, but then another dog would join in, and another. The bitch would crawl out from under and go lie under a tree, all the while the humping mass of dogs gets larger and wilder. So you’d have all thes dogs humping just because.

26241 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to Steve Hayes, #265 of 1045 🔗

Thanks for posting this. I’d seen a headline about it on YT last week, but couldn’t find the actual article.

26211 Cody, replying to Cody, 5, #266 of 1045 🔗

The planet Earth is made of cheese according to Neil Ferguson,although he did admit he had no proper scientific basis for making this claim.Its also not an analysis that has been published in a scientific journal and peer reviewed. Breaking on the BBC now,they’re warning of global catastrophe once the Daily Mail’s forecast summer heatwave begins…….

26546 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Cody, #267 of 1045 🔗

It would be funny, except …….

26573 ▶▶ annie, replying to Cody, 2, #268 of 1045 🔗

Up to 500,000 Welsh rarebits are predicted by his model.
Let’s face it, we’re toast.

26230 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 2, #269 of 1045 🔗


Not sure if this article is correct in all its aspects
“Cremation-based evidence suggests massive under-reporting of cases and deaths in Wuhan. The epidemic start is inferred to have been in October”
“The estimates of cumulative deaths, based on both funeral urns distribution and continuous full capacity operation of cremation services up to March 23, 2020, give results around 36,000, more than 10 times of the official death toll of 2,524.”
“the estimates projected on February 7, 2020 in Wuhan range from 305,000 to 1,272,000 for infections and from 6,811 to 7,223 for deaths – on the order of at least 10 times the official figures (13,603 and 545).”
I suspect that China and WHO will strongly disapprove of this article and I think it is unclear how they have inside information on cremations. But it is still published but not peer reviewed.US article.

26267 ▶▶ Nic, replying to swedenborg, 5, #270 of 1045 🔗

I think the ” care” the Chinese gave there patients probably killed many that would have survived.
China do not care about their people that’s why they locked down, so why did we follow this fascist dictatorships lead?

26297 ▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Nic, 3, #271 of 1045 🔗

No idea, but I do remember news footage of some poor Wuhan residents literally being shut into their apartments by having their doors welded!

26548 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to swedenborg, #272 of 1045 🔗

Any stick-poking of China by the US should be viewed circumspectly.

26239 Lms23, replying to Lms23, 6, #273 of 1045 🔗

So Ferguson says that the death toll from CV19 could have been halved if the government had “followed the science” and imposed lockdown a week earlier.

There’s a better way than using 20:20 hindsight and fake science (using a random number generator prediction model isn’t exactly science), i.e. doing a full audit of the causes of death. As Professor Karol Sikora says, the real number of deaths from CV19 could well be half of that declared in the current statistics.


“Prof Karol Sikora: Covid-19 death toll may be less than half of what has been recorded
In conversation with The Telegraph’s Planet Normal podcast, oncologist says medics can too easily put Covid on death certificates”

26264 ▶▶ Nic, replying to Lms23, 2, #274 of 1045 🔗

Ferguson I must admit is a thick skinned bastard

26275 ▶▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to Nic, 3, #275 of 1045 🔗

or should that be thick skulled?

26572 ▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Edgar Friendly, #276 of 1045 🔗


26240 Poppy, replying to Poppy, 9, #277 of 1045 🔗


More than 31,000 close contacts were identified during the first week of the test and trace system in England, figures show.’

This sounds like an awful lot of people. The BBC report states that this figure came from 8000 positive cases. I am not scientifically inclined and obviously I can’t speak for everyone and I suppose it depends on one’s lifestyle and daily interactions, but I thought scientific data showed that the disease was dying out in the community now and only really existing nosocomially in hospitals and care homes. I can’t see many people visiting these places right now for obvious reasons. So where are all these new cases coming from? And how many degrees of separation does a person have to be from the index case in order to be contacted? If anyone on this forum could shed some light on this for me that would be great.

Also it can’t just be me who thinks this track and trace system is a bit of a rubbish idea. I remember seeing that study (name escapes me now, if anyone knows the one I’m talking about please help me remember!) about how something like 80% of cases came from around 10% of previous cases, and that this is a virus spread during isolated superspreader events, rather than just evenly throughout the population. There have also been discussions on this comments board about the possibility of many people coming into contact with the virus but not actually contracting the disease, and of course there’s a big question mark over how effective asymptomatic transmission actually is. We also know now that the disease isn’t spreading exponentially anymore so where is the possibility of 31,000 contacts catching the disease from 8,000 people? That’s a big increase, just because it’s a bigger number. I’m just very confused (sorry if these are thick questions lol).

This news report has really put a damper on my day. If what I’ve said in my previous paragraph is true, then we could have people who are not even incubating the virus needlessly self-isolating for 2 weeks. This is the sort of thing that maybe would have been a good idea at the beginning of the epidemic when there were very few cases and no spread, but I don’t imagine there will be much appetite for asymptomatic people to isolate for a further 2 weeks now that restrictions are lifting and we’ve already endured three months of mind-numbing purgatory, not to mention the fact the virus has pretty much ripped its way through the country anyway. People should only isolate if they have symptoms – just stay in bed if you’re ill, like any other sodding disease before this one!

26246 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Poppy, 6, #278 of 1045 🔗

I’m not sure how accurate the Covid test actually is. And of course, the more you test, the more you find. Plus I believe it has been decided (nor not, changes by the day!) that asymptomatic people do not pass on the virus. We also know that not everyone who comes into contact with a carrier, actually catches the disease. In fact the vast majority do not. So there is no way that 8,000 people will actually spread it to 31,000 people.

26257 ▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to CarrieAH, 5, #279 of 1045 🔗

Yes, this is exactly what I was thinking, and I was aware that the Covid test is a bit dodgy for false positives and the like, which is why I think it’s disproportionate for all of those 31,000 to self isolate for 2 weeks. I thought I was going mad…!

26258 ▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to CarrieAH, 1, #280 of 1045 🔗

I’m not entirely sure about asymptomatic people not spreading the virus.
I now know of two people who were admitted to hospital, where they were infected. One died (online funeral was yesterday), and one, 90 y.o. has recovered. He was in for hip replacement surgery.
The person who died was tested for CV19 on a first admission to hospital and was negative. He fell ill again about a week later, readmitted, and was then found to have the virus.
As he was unwell anyway, hadn’t been anywhere or seen anyone apart from hospital staff, he couldn’t have caught it anywhere else.

26274 ▶▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to Lms23, 5, #281 of 1045 🔗

There is definitely a big question mark over asymptomatic spreaders – they may well still spread the disease but I would imagine it would be harder for them to spread without symptoms, i.e. no coughing or sneezing out droplets.

Your anecdotes of those two people contracting it in hospital definitely lend weight to the fact that it’s nosocomial. I’m sorry to hear about the death.

26550 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Lms23, #282 of 1045 🔗

Doesn’t that prove the nosocomial point though? You will be more likely to get a larger dose, or more small doses, while trapped in hospital. If he was ill anyway, his immune system wouldn’t have dealt with it effectively. Double whammy.

26262 ▶▶▶ Nic, replying to CarrieAH, 1, #283 of 1045 🔗

Agree WHO were saying worldwide cases were shooting up ,but then more tests were being done.
IRAN through their latest antibody test reckon they have 15 million cases ,of course the more infections there are the lower the death rate becomes as desths are falling on the worldometer

26296 ▶▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Nic, 2, #284 of 1045 🔗

I agree Nic. So much testing is always going to give more positive results. I’m sure many of us are walking round with various types of cancer, but because we don’t get tested for them as we don’t have symptoms (and maybe never will) then we don’t come under cancer statistics.

26251 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Poppy, 5, #285 of 1045 🔗

They’re gonna do the same with this as they’re doing with the death figures – inflate, inflate, inflate. Everyone a ‘case’ test subject named will be called as a ‘contact’ – even if they are never actually forced to isolate because they were only in very fleeting proximity to the positive individual. So… say I’m positive, and they ask me where I’ve been etc. and I say the supermarket, and I name some people that I saw there, but only walked past and waved at, they will put them on the list of ‘contacts’ despite the fact said contact was way less than 15 minutes and they therefore won’t have to be put on the isolation hitlist.

26260 ▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to Farinances, 5, #286 of 1045 🔗

Yes, I can see them doing this to inflate the figures, prolong the crisis and justify ruining the country with the lockdown, but it takes only a very basic grasp of maths to work out that 8,000 people supposedly spreading it to 31,000 does not tally up with the constantly decreasing deaths and infections.

26346 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Farinances, 3, #287 of 1045 🔗

You are under no legal obligation to supply a tracker with any information as to who you have been with, much less give the tracker those people’s personal details. However, I would suspect the government have now (via phone updates) given themselves access to such data anyway. What they do not know is when someone gets symptoms – for that they rely on people actually self-reporting. If no one does, then the scheme will fail..

26354 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Carrie, 8, #288 of 1045 🔗

And this is why I’ve blocked their number. Good luck getting me to even talk to you let alone lock myself in my house for two weeks. Go spin on my finger.
If I get ill I will take myself to Lemsip like I would have done anyway. That is my prerogative as an individual taking care of my own, and yes, other people’s health.

26571 ▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Farinances, 1, #289 of 1045 🔗

I’ll toast you in my glass of Lemsip.

A small business owner I know pointed out that if she is fingered for self-isolation, that’s the end of her business -assuming it ever re-opens at all.

26580 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to annie, 1, #290 of 1045 🔗

They’re not enforcing self isolation anyway. It’s reliant on people’s good will.

26963 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Nobody2020, #291 of 1045 🔗

Just more whitewash then?

26252 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to Poppy, 1, #292 of 1045 🔗

Haven’t one research group found antibodies in pre-CV19 blood samples, i.e. 2017-2018-ish blood donor samples?
Is there any indication whether the current test-and-trace are testing for antigens or antibodies?

26261 ▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to Lms23, 1, #293 of 1045 🔗

Not sure for certain, but I assumed it would be an antigen test because there would be more urgency for the contacts to self-isolate if the index case is currently infected. Plus I read somewhere it can take several weeks for antibodies to appear.

26413 ▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Poppy, #294 of 1045 🔗

Yes it’s antigens. The test usually has a low false positive rate but it can pick up smashed up bits of virus in recovered patients.

26408 ▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Lms23, #295 of 1045 🔗

No, but they found cross-reactive memory T cells that probably got there from infections by similar viruses.

Antibodies only last for a few months but if you have the memory cells you can just make some more (it’s actually the memory B cells that make them but if you have the helper T cells you will probably have the Bs as well).

26667 ▶▶▶ djaustin, replying to Lms23, #296 of 1045 🔗

Test and trace is using PCR tests for virus. That uses a primer that in essence detects a segment of RNA from the virus.

Antibody tests look for parts of the virus itself. They won’t work in the newly infected because it takes a while to start making them.

PCT is very accurate if you get a good sample. People can test positive for several weeks, sometimes longer. That does not mean they have the virus that long, as dead bits of viral RNA can hang around. The number of amplification cycles is what determines “positive”. It’s normally gone in four weeks,

26671 ▶▶▶▶ OKUK, replying to djaustin, 1, #297 of 1045 🔗

“Antibody tests look for parts of the virus itself.” Do you have a citation for that? I’ve never, ever read that anywhere else.

“PCT is very accurate if you get a good sample.” That’s a vacuous statement like saying MOT tests are accurate if you have a good mechanic conducting them.

26807 ▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to djaustin, 1, #298 of 1045 🔗

The antibody tests are looking for the antibodies which have small proteins on them that stick to parts of the virus. That’s what they’re looking for.

Here is a useful graph someone sent me that came off some paper (and the actual delays may not be exactly this for different test kits but it’s a good rough guide):

26937 ▶▶▶▶▶ djaustin, replying to guy153, 1, #299 of 1045 🔗

Not quite. The antibody assays use some of the antigen on a plate. Antibodies in blood or serum pass over them and some will stick if present. Then a reporting antibody is used to stick to any bound antibody. That’s called an ELISA test (most accurate). The home test capillary blood flow assays with less sensitivity that have poorer performance use a s. The Abbott and Roche antibody tests are ELISA and run on automated machines with high throughput (300 tests/hr), high sensitivity and high specificity. Provided we have enough machines, of course.

26997 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to djaustin, #300 of 1045 🔗

Yes. My point was just that they’re looking for antibodies (that as you say stick to antigens on a test plate). But the person you’re testing might not have any actual parts of the virus inside them (although they probably did unless they were given the antibodies artificially).

26316 ▶▶ sam, replying to Poppy, 3, #301 of 1045 🔗
26324 ▶▶▶ LGDTLK, replying to sam, 3, #302 of 1045 🔗

The incoming NHS number for tracing is 0300 0135000. I’ve added it to my phone blacklists so good luck to the fuckers if they try and contact me.

26553 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to LGDTLK, #303 of 1045 🔗

Done. Thanks.

26349 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to sam, 4, #304 of 1045 🔗

Exactly..unfortunately. They want to grind people down mentally until they are so desperate that they will agree to anything 🙁

26341 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Poppy, 9, #305 of 1045 🔗

Has anyone else noticed that ‘track and trace’ has now been renamed ‘test and trace’ in the information films and posters? My suspicion is that the word ‘track’ has been removed because of its obvious connotations with monitoring the population…The government must have noticed that a proportion of people have wised up to what this is really all about, and so are attempting to play down the tracking part, at least in the promotion of it…

26376 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Carrie, 2, #306 of 1045 🔗

Good spot Carrie.

26394 ▶▶ guy153, replying to Poppy, 4, #307 of 1045 🔗

8000 out of 60m is very few people. I would not be especially surprised if the number of active covid infections stayed around that level for ever.

Rough ballpark 2000 people a day are born in the UK. About 20% of them will end up with Covid at some point and the disease usually lasts about a week. So you might expect the equilibrium level of people with a Covid infection in the UK to be around 3000 for ever, probably going up a bit every winter and down again in the summer.

The population grows more because of immigration than births but we can ignore that because the people coming in are from places that are typically equally saturated with Covid.

Right now the actual number of active infections is about 100k so it still hasn’t quite died out (but likely will do soon because of herd immunity). Tracing 28k contacts of 8k of those 100k isn’t going to make much difference to anything.

26402 ▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to guy153, 2, #308 of 1045 🔗

Interesting when you put it into context like that, thank you.

26554 ▶▶ matt, replying to Poppy, #309 of 1045 🔗

I had a similar thought on the slides in yesterday’s briefing. They say that infections are increasing and that they estimate that 53,000 people are currently infected. But they also say that 39,000 are being infected per week.

Given that it takes 2 weeks to get over the virus, how can that represent a reducing number? I’m pretty sure that 2 x 39 > 53

26242 CarrieAH, replying to CarrieAH, 26, #310 of 1045 🔗

I have just been listening to Allison Pearson’s Planet Normal podcast via the Telegraph where they interview Professor Karol Sikora. The presenters were saying that in future years you won’t get asked which year you specialise in on quiz shows, it will be which quarter of 2020! So far, in the first quarter we’ve had Brexit, and the second quarter the disaster that is Covid-19 and the lockdown. The third quarter? Probably the start of severe financial depression and unemployment with masses being laid off. Fourth quarter – likely riots, strikes and god forbid, a second wave! Only this time we probably won’t notice it as there is no way we can lock down again and will just get on with it.

In the interview itself, Professor Sikora is very adamant that the final death figures will be nothing like they are now, and blames the UK’s archaic paperwork system and of course the fact that so many death certificates have been passed as “with Covid-19” even if they have not tested positive or even had a doctor signing the certificate. He believes that the final figure will be in the low 20,000’s, which is still a lot, but as he says most of that number will still be people who would have died anyway in the next three months or so, and to wait to see what the final yearly figures say, how much they are above normal.

26503 ▶▶ LibertyNotLockdown, replying to CarrieAH, 1, #311 of 1045 🔗

Germany requires much more stringent criteria for a death to be ceritified as a covid-19 death than most of Europe does, this might be why their death rate seems so much lower than everywhere else. Not magically healthy germans, just overcounting of deaths elsewhere.

26253 sam, replying to sam, 4, #312 of 1045 🔗

If the SAGE committee didn’t advise the government to fully shut down our country then who did?

26326 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to sam, 4, #313 of 1045 🔗

I think it was a case of Monkey See Monkey Do

26568 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Nobody2020, 3, #314 of 1045 🔗

A tyrannical communist monkey imposed the sort of measure that was only to be expected from a tyrannical communist monkey, and all the western so-called ‘democratic’ monkeys followed suit.
Elect peanuts, get monkeys?

26332 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to sam, 1, #315 of 1045 🔗

Those green chaps from Betelgeuse …

26365 ▶▶ guy153, replying to sam, 10, #316 of 1045 🔗

Basically the press. They all had such a massive bleatfest at the idea of “herd immunity” that the government had to immediately pretend they’d never said that and to pursue an “illogic” strategy instead.

26466 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to guy153, 1, #317 of 1045 🔗

Triggered into economic oblivion

26555 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to sam, 1, #318 of 1045 🔗

I read that Macron threatened that if we didn’t lockdown, France would cut us off. Don’t know if it’s true but it wouldn’t have been without effect.

26254 sam, 5, #319 of 1045 🔗

Dutch scientist discusses the innate immune system that is 90% of our immune system and does not depend upon antibodies as well as other points.

26269 6097 Smith W, #321 of 1045 🔗

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIDsKdeFOmQ video is from the New York hospital but I suspect it will have been similar in the NHS

26279 Edgar Friendly, replying to Edgar Friendly, 5, #322 of 1045 🔗

You can add Farage to that list, Toby:


26342 ▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to Edgar Friendly, 1, #323 of 1045 🔗

Drawing parallels between two groups of iconoclastic fanatics is apparently beyond the pale for LBC.

26281 annie, 12, #324 of 1045 🔗

Splendid piece today, Toby.
Simon Dolan’s lawyers will have these data and they should take the govt and its lying minions APART.

26284 Ross Hendry, replying to Ross Hendry, 14, #325 of 1045 🔗

Few people under the age of 70 will fully understand this but we are in such a state of misgovernment that only satire can help.

In the 1960s it was satire that made the ruling elite look ridiculous in “That Was The Week That Was”. This continued with “Spitting Image” until 1996, when viewing figures apparently declined (even satire couldn’t make people laugh about Major – he was totally ridiculous anyway).

Now the time is ripe for satire to make a return. Apparently “Spitting Image” might return on Britbox. I can see the Boris puppet now.

26291 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Ross Hendry, 6, #326 of 1045 🔗

Question: if a puppet (real or computerised) represents a black person, can it be designed, made, painted, dressed or operated by a white person, or is that puppetry ‘blackface’?

26294 ▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Barney McGrew, 5, #327 of 1045 🔗

The serious point being that we have created a situation where nobody will be inclined to create a grotesque black character even on Spitting Image. And that in itself is patronising, infantilising, racist .

I suggest that if there were plans to bring back Spitting Image, they’re probably being quietly shelved, now…

26353 ▶▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Barney McGrew, 1, #328 of 1045 🔗

The solution is to simply not show black people at all. That will avoid any possibility of causing offence…

26464 ▶▶▶▶▶ IanE, replying to Nobody2020, 3, #329 of 1045 🔗

But then they will be deemed to be under-represented!

26301 ▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Barney McGrew, 2, #330 of 1045 🔗

Goodness knows – I’ve lost the plot on that issue. It’s all got out of hand.

26345 ▶▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to Barney McGrew, 1, #331 of 1045 🔗
26348 ▶▶▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to Edgar Friendly, 2, #332 of 1045 🔗

BTW the right answer is that it shouldn’t be a problem, but the puritans want it otherwise

26363 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to Barney McGrew, 6, #333 of 1045 🔗

Less funny, but more of a problem…

Spitting image puppets were exaggerated caricatures. It has become increasingly difficult for cartoonists to get away with caricaturing black politicians and celebrities in cartoons without being denounced for racism.

I can’t imagine for a minute how spitting image will get away with it. And, of course, if they aren’t representing non-white politicians and celebrities, that will be a problem too.

My guess is, that one casualty of BLM will be the death of the idea of spitting image coming back to BritBox

26381 ▶▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to matt, 1, #334 of 1045 🔗

This is what people have forgotten about Bo Selecta and so on. Back in 2005, impressionists doing impressions of white or black people was fine because we’d reached the point where society was at ease with itself. To not do impressions of black-skinned people would actually be racist. So ‘Keith Lemon’ could do impressions of people who were more famous and successful than him, and if they were black then that was just how it was. In fact, I remember at the time, thinking it was self-consciously PC!

26293 ▶▶ annie, replying to Ross Hendry, 2, #335 of 1045 🔗

How far does a spit carry?

26305 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Ross Hendry, 1, #336 of 1045 🔗

Both these shows are incredible. I’m a bit young to have watched them as they happened but my dad use to watch them with me on vhs when I was a kid. Stuff just isn’t funny like that more.

26318 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Farinances, 4, #337 of 1045 🔗

At least there’s Andrew Lawrence …

26663 ▶▶ djaustin, replying to Ross Hendry, #338 of 1045 🔗

Satire is defunct. Armando Iannucci is on long-term sabbatical until matters of government improve.

26303 Jon G, replying to Jon G, 19, #339 of 1045 🔗

Sage Chair Prof Catherine Noakes, speaking on Inside Science (radio 4), has just suggested ‘propping open fire doors to avoid unnecessary touching – after all, they can be closed if a fire alarm goes off’.

Now I’d imagine there’s probably a few unnecessary fire doors out there, but ffs! If ever there was a clear example of myopically obsessing about one of the risks in life, at the total expense of the rest, it’s that.

Totally representative of the response to threat overall, and the reason I’ve got three kids st home when they should be at bloody school.

26392 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Jon G, 5, #340 of 1045 🔗

One wonders re the vast salary needed to attract people of her calibre …

26406 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Jon G, 11, #341 of 1045 🔗

It’s consistent with the crazy idea that it’s OK for people to die of anything but covid-19 – for instance by being burned to death or suffocated by smoke inhalation in a fire.

If it was simply a question of closing fire doors when the fire alarm went off, why would we ever bother closing them? Oh, listen, there’s a fire alarm, I will spend a few minutes walking around the building and closing all the fire doors. Stunning.

26444 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Julian, 1, #342 of 1045 🔗

And brave.

26441 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Jon G, 2, #343 of 1045 🔗

Burn down your own establishment before BLM does!

26461 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Jon G, 1, #344 of 1045 🔗

And that would certainly be against the law!

26306 Margaret, 4, #345 of 1045 🔗

Good to see the latest Euromomo data showing the UK having no excess mortality for week 23. It is also interesting to use the interactive map showing data from previous years, to see how many times and in how many of the European countries (for which data was available) have had very high excess mortality in the past-without needing lockdown!

26308 Biker, replying to Biker, 8, #346 of 1045 🔗

This Ferguson geezer is just pulling weeds out his arse.

26375 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Biker, 3, #347 of 1045 🔗

You reckon he knows his arse from his elbow?

26566 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to JohnB, #348 of 1045 🔗


26309 Awkward Git, replying to Awkward Git, 9, #349 of 1045 🔗

Off topic I know (and apologies to those not interested) but anyway, to all of you asking about the wife’s electromagnetic hypersensitivity (EMHS).

A few things to do:

  • have your mobile phone at least 7 ft away from the bed or even better tuned off
  • turn off all wifi in the house
  • how far are you from a mobile mast or hi-volatge electrical overhead line?
  • Does your area have a “hotspot” of illness – cancers, dementia, diabetes, miscarriages, kids with “problems”?
  • think about getting an EMF survey done for your house – shocked the wife as she thought it was all wishy washy idiocy until the surveyor pointed out things she could “feel” including underground rivers, ley lines, and so on
  • Read “The Invisible Rainbow” by Arthur Firstenberg
  • Read the pdf download Chemtrails, wireless and you or read here by William Thomas https://www.geoengineeringwatch.org/chemtrails-wireless-and-you/
  • research it yourself as there have been NO independent studies done to confirm 5G and all other EMFs/wifi/mobiles are safe
  • Look at Memon technology
  • Look at Von Pohl’s research
  • Look at http://radiationdangers.com/microwave-sickness/
  • https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_chemtrails.htm
  • DARPA Area Denial Weapon
  • The effects of the electrification of rural America
  • State of the nation website has some good articles on EMFs, 5G etc
  • The senate hearings into the safety of 5G last year
  • Why does OFCOM threaten and fine any broadcaster who even questions 5G in anything other than positive light?
  • The big news story last year was the hospitals (and in Holland nursing homes) were all being 5G enabled to allow everyone to use tablets, transfer info etc quicker. Why are the highest deaths in hospitals where 5G has been installed including staff?
  • Princess cruises are the most 5G wifi at sea cruise line so why were they more effected than any other cruise line?
  • Look at https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/scalar_tech/esp_scalartech_cellphonesmicrowave.htm#5G
  • Look at the US Moscow Embassy in the 1950s and the US embassy in Cuba in 2016 and the effects of EMFs beamed into the buildings on the staff

that’s a good start for you.

Now all the thumbs down and debunking and insults start.

26310 ▶▶ Biker, replying to Awkward Git, #350 of 1045 🔗

woo hoo i feel heavy metal

26328 ▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Biker, 1, #351 of 1045 🔗

Iron Maiden? Led Zeppelin? Deep Purple? Aerosmith? All the good oldies from the 70S?

Perfect for raising hell to!

26409 ▶▶▶▶ Biker, replying to Awkward Git, -7, #352 of 1045 🔗

i was mocking you you utter twat

26314 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to Awkward Git, 5, #353 of 1045 🔗

Thanks very much for this. I got the same when I started asking questions about this subject.

26334 ▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to kh1485, 2, #354 of 1045 🔗

Yep, you definitely get slagged off when starting to question.

26336 ▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Awkward Git, 3, #355 of 1045 🔗

But why? I noticed the downticks on the previous LS page when I asked you for some info’.

26373 ▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to kh1485, 5, #356 of 1045 🔗

Same reason the mob supports lockdown. And BLM. They are less evolved, and believe what the bad guys tell them via their tv.

26331 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to Awkward Git, 1, #357 of 1045 🔗

We have such a weak cell phone signal that we don’t even get a signal at all in half the house. It’s permanently in the hallway, and well away from the bedroom, as is the WiFi hub.
I have a couple of WiFi boosters, but always switch off the one close to the bedroom except when I’m watching Netflix or Prime.

26680 ▶▶▶ sam, replying to Lms23, 1, #358 of 1045 🔗

can’t watch netflix anymore as they’re banning Little Britain!

26335 ▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Awkward Git, 1, #359 of 1045 🔗

An informative vide, good place to start researching and questioning:


There are a few more videos around to look for as well. Don’t take my word for it.

Look at the similarities between 5G effects of haemoglobin and how covid-19 affects the lungs and why ventilators did not work but killed people.

26358 ▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to Awkward Git, 3, #360 of 1045 🔗

Firstenberg is a crank and grifter with no scientific or engineering background, he’s been at it for 20 years and has been largely responsible for the 5G misinformation campaign.

I deal with radio waves all the time and can tell you that most of it is nonsense. 5G cannot pass through a leaf. So that’s that.

26368 ▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Edgar Friendly, 2, #361 of 1045 🔗

“5G cannot pass through a leaf. So that’s that.”

I bow to your expertise, but if it can’t pass through a leaf, how does it work when a person’s in… a forest? Or a car, building, etc.

26384 ▶▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to Barney McGrew, 1, #362 of 1045 🔗

“5G cannot pass through a leaf. So that’s that.” Thats not actually correct. 5G uses several frequency ranges. It is true that as frequency increases the ability of the signal to penetrate matter decreases. 5G has three frequency ranges – lowband, midband and highband. Lowband and midband use frequencies close to what 4G uses and give similar range and penetration and marginally better speeds. Highband uses much higher frequencies which can provide much higher data rates but over shorter range and with poorer penetration. This will require far more cell towers to be useful and will not be useful for some circumstances in which case the service would have to fall back to a midband or lowband.

26391 ▶▶▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to Saved To Death, 1, #363 of 1045 🔗

I will just add that the energy at certain frequencies is absorbed by certain types of matter and it may there it may be the case that the claim that certain frequencies are absorbed by oxygen are correct but that would make that frequency a poor choice to use to communicate through an atmosphere of 20% oxygen.

Maybe an EM weapon system is being installed under the cover of the 5G rollout – I keep an open mind, it would be quite a big conspiracy however and its not likely someone trying to design an effective communication system would choose to transmit at a frequency readily absorbed by atmospheric gasses.

26686 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ sam, replying to Saved To Death, 1, #364 of 1045 🔗

Here’s an investigation before Panorama went to the dark side!
WiFi a warning signal

26374 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Edgar Friendly, #365 of 1045 🔗

Can it affect oxygen take-up at around 60Ghz, Edgar ?

26403 ▶▶▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to JohnB, 2, #366 of 1045 🔗

I’m not a doctor so do not know the mechanism by which oxygen is taken into cells, nor do i know how that could be interfered with by a radio signal, but i am doubtful it would make a difference as sunlight is far higher frequency and strength than 60ghz radio and we spend a lot of time walking about in that (when we’re allowed out by our masters).

We have been surrounded by radio waves going well into the gigahertz range for more than 50 years and i don’t see much effect of that on our health. People get cancer far more now, but that may also be an effect of better detection methods. Who knows? I do know there are more things to worry about than 5G installations. Like letting the Chinese run the radio sites, that’s a bad idea 5G or any other G.

26419 ▶▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to Edgar Friendly, 2, #367 of 1045 🔗

Just to add a bit of technical stuffage:

Signal strength is attenuated by the square of the distance, so it drops off very fast the further you are from the source, and any obstacles make the attenuation even higher. Higher frequencies have less strength so cannot penetrate as far, hence the need for more transmitters for 5G. As a practical example, just think about the noise you hear from your neighbours, is it loud and clear? No, it’s muffled, and mainly lower frequencies, that’s because the high frequencies can bounce off the walls inside your neighbour’s house, and the frequencies that do not get reflected are instead absorbed by the wall’s material. It’s very easy to make sound-proofing for high frequencies, but for lower frequencies it’s much more difficult, as you need larger distances in the wall cavity to properly attenuate the low frequencies through an insulating material like foam or rock wool. It’s the bane of studio design, getting the bass right, as you encounter such phenomena as standing waves, which means your room resonates and accentuates certain frequencies. We’re bombarded by infrasonics all the time, as well as ultrasonics, and nobody seems to be making a fuss about that. Let’s hope nobody discovers the brown note.

Higher frequencies at high energy can do serious damage, i’m denying that (my tinnitus attests to this fact). But the normal level of radiation is not increasing with 5G, according to the standards agencies across the world (take that as you will), it’s just the technology is changing and thus needs to be implemented in a different way.

26421 ▶▶▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to Edgar Friendly, #368 of 1045 🔗

“i’m not denying that”

26439 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Edgar Friendly, #369 of 1045 🔗

I actually enjoyed this post. Maybe I need to stop working with computers.

26688 ▶▶▶▶ sam, replying to Edgar Friendly, 1, #370 of 1045 🔗

As I’m sure you’ed agree the microwave part of the EM spectrum is fairly silent (background microwave radiaiton is virtually zero) It has been pumped up trillions of times these low levels and the assumption was there would be no ill effects. However life on the planet developed with virtually zero radiation in this frequency band. It turns out that the effects are harmful at the levels we are currently exposed to
The WHO has been covering this up for years as you can imagine. The EMF project was funded by the industry.
Start with the reviw of 4000 studies at
You can listen to some talks here

26494 ▶▶▶ LibertyNotLockdown, replying to Edgar Friendly, #371 of 1045 🔗

A leaf, I think it can pass through, unless the leaf has been sprayed with highly conductive material. But I’m well aware that it is less penetrating than other radio wavebands. 5G is optimised for faster data transmission but to do this they had to move to shorter wavelengths, these shorter wavelengths travel less distance and are more easily blocked by buildings and terrain. hence the need for many more 5G base stations than were needed for older protocols. All these radio wavebands are perfectly safe.

26682 ▶▶▶ sam, replying to Edgar Friendly, 1, #372 of 1045 🔗

Thats not what people’s experience is nor what the studies show
This is the area called biophysics, the effects of microwave radaition on living organisms, not something that engineers study.
Over the past decade, the evidence of serious risks has been increasing and accumulating worldwide. As physicians, we observe a clear increase in health symptoms when radio-frequency exposure levels increase with regard to distance and time—especially in the case of heavy cell phone use, and in the vicinity of DECT cordless phones, Wi-Fi, and cell towers—including problems falling asleep and staying asleep, chronic fatigue, headaches, migraine, vertigo, tinnitus, unhealthy blood pressure levels and arrhythmias, concentration and memory problems, learning and behavioral disorders, a more frequent incidence of ADHD among children. And numerous studies of independent scientists have now confirmed many of these observations made by physicians.

26730 ▶▶▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to sam, 2, #373 of 1045 🔗

I’d say at least half of those things are caused not by EMF, but by changes in human behaviour and use of technology. We have things to keep us active at hours that would have been totally quiet many years ago, like electric lighting. That mucks about with time perception. As do clocks (viz people getting hungry just because it’s almost 1pm, Pavlov much?).

We also do less strenuous physical activity. We have pointless concerns about things like paying bills. We eat far more sugar and salt than we ‘evolved’ with. We have passive entertainments on tap 24/7. We read less than we used to. We remember less than we used to, now having any answer at the tap of a screen.

We are devolving.

And you are wrong about engineers. They study effects of radiation on humans all the time. That’s what the standards agencies do. Whether you trust them is a different question.

26731 ▶▶▶▶▶ Edgar Friendly, replying to Edgar Friendly, 1, #374 of 1045 🔗

And just because somebody has studied medicine, doesn’t mean they are qualified to comment on engineering, just as engineers are not likely to be the best people to turn to when you have a broken arm.

27078 ▶▶▶▶ Mike, replying to sam, #375 of 1045 🔗

I think if there’s one thing this whole fiasco has shown us, it’s that “the science” is not really reliable on all kinds of things, especially medical science. That list of symptoms is silly – it’s huge and most of them are extremely vague.

Look, I can give you another correlation. Life expectancy is higher than ever before. The amount of radio usage is also higher than ever before. So radio waves make us live longer.

That’s the problem with this form of argument. It’s a logical fallacy to just observe two variables moving together and conclude one causes the other, especially when those variables are so vaguely defined.

26362 ▶▶ guy153, replying to Awkward Git, 2, #376 of 1045 🔗

OK not going to thumbs down or insult, but this is an honest question. Can your wife reliably tell you if the WiFi is on or off just by feeling it? You can easily do this experiment.

26412 ▶▶▶ Biker, replying to guy153, -4, #377 of 1045 🔗

if it were a dildo i’m sure she might be able to tell but living with that geezer she’s probably dead down there.

26740 ▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to guy153, 1, #378 of 1045 🔗

Yep she can no matter what angry biker says with his recent insults, and no he’s not going to rile me up and all those who claim EMFs and especially 5G are harmless can say what they want, they are not safe.

This was even admitted in the US Senate hearings last year by the 5G operators who admitted not one study has been done that proves they are safe.

The USN in 1972 released a bibliography of studies done on EMFs and their effects on humans (I have a copy) and there are hundreds of studies listed done previous to then and the effects they found and confirmed.


in the local garden centre she always went strange and dizzy at the exacts are point outside the entrance to the cafe. Very time we want there was the same at the same point. One day one of the staff saw this happen and came across. She said she had exactly these are feeling at the same point. On checking the main wifi hub is about the ceiling, it’s the only one in the place.

on holiday in Arizona, stayed places miles from anywhere, no mobile masts, no wifi etc. She had no headaches or all the other stuff she feels. One night stayed in Sedona and 100 m from the motel was a major mobile mast. She couldn’t sleep properly and next morning and all her problems back including the mosts debilitating headache.

We got a new neighbour. After a few days every afternoon the wife would suddenly get a raving headache and feeling like shit. The neighbour went away for 2 weeks holiday, nothing happened each afternoon. They came back and it all started again. Spoke to them and at the time the wife problems start in the afternoon is when he said he came home from worked and turned on the his hi-power in each room wifi so he could work from home. He turned it off and it stopped. Speaking to them later they also noticed they had less general health issues, less headaches etc.

I could go on with lots more personal examples.

27080 ▶▶▶▶ Mike, replying to Awkward Git, #379 of 1045 🔗

If your wife can genuinely feel radio waves you need to get a demo of that in front of some skeptics on live TV right now, you will be instantly world famous and in huge demand. I’m serious. Your name (or rather her name) will go down in history. If such a phenomenon exists and can be understood, it could not only end a health disaster but potentially be harnessed for all kinds of new beneficial technologies we can’t even imagine.

But you have to understand, and I suspect you already do, the reason virtually everyone thinks EMF sensitivity doesn’t exist is because quite a few people have made this claim over time. And when tested in a properly randomised test, every single one of them has failed. Every, single, one. There is just no reliable evidence anywhere that people can feel radio waves.

The last random example I heard from this was the local electricity company laid a new high voltage power mains cable through a village. The residents started complaining that they could feel it and it was making them sick. It got to the mayor, I think. The electricity company had a simple but devastating response – due to project delays elsewhere the cable hadn’t been energised yet. It was just some metal in the ground. The people who said they could feel the energy were imagining it.

That’s why it’d be so amazing if she really can, in a provable and repeatable way, feel radio waves when they’re being switched on and off from a position she cannot observe, by someone she doesn’t know. She’d have the 6th sense. Every scientist worth their salt would want to understand how she does it. It could revolutionise human existence.

26369 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Awkward Git, 2, #380 of 1045 🔗

Great information. This censorship is unacceptable, people should be able to read all the information on EMFs/5G including pros and cons and then make up their minds. We are all unique individuals; some people are more sensitive to EMFs and some people are more susceptible to disease.

More resources:

26689 ▶▶▶ sam, replying to Victoria, 3, #381 of 1045 🔗

also many UK sites like

26746 ▶▶▶▶ Victoria, replying to sam, #382 of 1045 🔗

Great link thanks

26489 ▶▶ LibertyNotLockdown, replying to Awkward Git, 1, #383 of 1045 🔗

Just think conservation of energy, the few examples you can give where electromagnetic radiation has done any harm used very high powered sources. Phones would literally catch fire if they tried to pump those levels of power through their tiny cirsuits and antennas, the battery would be flat in fractions of a second. The same goes for wifi routers. High power radio equipment is big heavy, power hungry and expensive. Do you really think capitalists would ever waste profit by putting more expensive things than necessary in to consumer devices or backend phone infrastructure? Let me make you a suggestion, open up your wifi router, get a soldering iron and carefully remove the LEDs inside it which light up while it is operating (or put thick black paint over them), reassemble the router. Have it on, and operating. tel your wife to put her head right beside it, she’ll see no LEDs and think it is off. She’ll suffer no symptoms, because the body isn’t sensitive to radio wavelength emissions at even thousands of times the power level feasible for consumer equipment. Then tell her it was on the whole time, prove it by using a wifi connected device. And watch her symptoms vanish forever. There have been randomised controlled experiments where people who claimed sensitivity to EM were put in scenarios like this, none had their symptoms when lights were obscured so they thought devices were off. EM hypersensitivty is almost as barmy as Ferguson’s modelling.

26320 Biker, replying to Biker, 21, #385 of 1045 🔗

I don’t believe any of it. I don’t believe the number of dead, i don’t believe the number of infections, i don’t believe in the testing. This whole thing is a giant mind fuck set to blow up the western world. I don’t believe the Chinese footage from Wuhan, i don’t believe the News, i don’t believe in Boris, i don’t believe any of the muppets in government have the first clue what they are doing. I don’t believe the testing labs, I don’t believe anyone is being tested, anywhere. I don’t believe the NHS.
I do believe there are agents controlling this narrative and everyone involved who thinks this is real don’t ask themselves the questions need asking, they just assume others are doing it. The hospitals are empty, but none of the muppets who work there think anything of it. They are told other hospitals are full but they’ve been lucky. No one knows anyone who’s had it and if they do then either they’ve been lied to or they’ve been lied to. No autopsies to prove any of it. You die in hospital it’s written on the death certificate and the body burned so no proof. The only way back from this is to object and refuse in every single way possible. If you own a shop, open it and let as many folk in as you can, if you own a pub the same, get in the face of anyone who toe’s the state line. There is a war for your life right now and if we sit back and let them they will. Oh and the BLM muppets are a smoke screen. They’re paid for deep state actors just like the did when they set up things like the National Front or the British National Party. They’re either playing games or this is the end of consumerism and the world really is fucked and bad things are gonna happen.
I’ll be cool though because i don’t give a fuck, any day to die is good enough for me.

26359 ▶▶ Cruella, replying to Biker, 18, #386 of 1045 🔗

My hospital was made emptier, because we discharged everyone “for their own safety” and cleared the decks for the surge (love that word) now we’re back in business we aren’t anymore. Still not as busy, as the MSM have terrified the public into staying away, as have PHE. Bastards all. Definitely lots of bollocks out there. I have to wear a face cloth at all times, which I have become used to though it inhibits effective communication and means very little when worn by asymptomatic individuals, but it’s political right? They’re aren’t enough people in our communities with covid to justify this. Anyway, the bollocks goes on.

26395 ▶▶▶ Sarigan, replying to Cruella, 3, #387 of 1045 🔗

Surge could equally be replaced with purge.

26426 ▶▶▶▶ John Smith, replying to Sarigan, #388 of 1045 🔗

We’re having a S(t)urgeon up here.

Lucky us.

26458 ▶▶▶▶ IanE, replying to Sarigan, #389 of 1045 🔗

Hmm, good comment: maybe this whole thing is modelled on “The Purge”!

26492 ▶▶▶ Rob Tyson, replying to Cruella, 3, #390 of 1045 🔗

I had to go to St Barts Hospital in London today. They gave me a face mask at the door and almost all patients seemed to have one on, but interestingly of perhaps 60 hospital staff I observed moving around I would say 70% of them did not.

26978 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Cruella, #391 of 1045 🔗

Not scared away and not back in business. Maybe it varies round the country but my local NHS trust is still not functioning properly.

This week, I got a call from my maxillo-facial consultant’s secretary. Is it ok if he phones me for a telephone consultation on Monday? This is regarding a major op INSIDE my mouth last year. I should have had a follow-up x-ray in March. Surely that could have been arranged before he spoke to me.

What’s he going to do, look in my mouth down the landline?

So don’t believe it when the MSM claim the NHS is back in business. It’s mostly box-ticking at my local right now.

26423 ▶▶ John Smith, replying to Biker, 1, #392 of 1045 🔗

The only question is…

Why are those damn nightingale hospitals still fully functioning?


Named after a lady who is famous from her actions during another bloody pointless war …


26455 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Biker, #393 of 1045 🔗

Well, I certainly agree that bad things are going to happen – walk in the park so far!

26659 ▶▶ djaustin, replying to Biker, 1, #394 of 1045 🔗

I’ve had it (tested). My friend died of it (tested). My wife went for a walk with his widow yesterday. He’s definitely dead. I presume he was in the coffin as they drove him away from the house (only close family at the funeral), but I must confess I did not check.

26321 Hammer Onats, replying to Hammer Onats, 11, #395 of 1045 🔗

Tonight’s briefing – Handjob and Dildo. They really should stop doing these – it’s boring and cringeworthy.

26453 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Hammer Onats, 3, #396 of 1045 🔗

I gave up many weeks ago.

26830 ▶▶ Threepartslogan, replying to Hammer Onats, #397 of 1045 🔗

Thanks for giving me the best laugh I’ve had all week!!! Your description of their names is hilarious.

26325 Lms23, replying to Lms23, 2, #398 of 1045 🔗

The Truth About Face Masks
(Dave Cullen – Computing Forever)

Article which is discussed:
Make face masks compulsory in shops, public transport – immunology expert

26629 ▶▶ Bella, replying to Lms23, #399 of 1045 🔗

‘Wearing masks literally reactivates your own virus…and if it happens to be Sars-Cov2 you’ve got a big problem.’

26330 Bart Simpson, replying to Bart Simpson, 23, #400 of 1045 🔗

Greetings Fellow Sceptics!

I’m nearing the end of my Ghost Town Capital journeys (before my self imposed boycott from 15 June to avoid wearing a muzzle) and my route today took me towards the City where unsurprisingly its still dead but for a few signs of life with some people already at work and surprise, surprise! No-one couldn’t give a rat’s ass about antisocial distancing and extremely few were wearing muzzles.

Interestingly I walked past a few shops and I could see staff getting ready for their reopening on 15 June. What was worrying however were the signs inside – the arrows for one way, dots for antisocial distancing and signs at the entrance with the usual we want to keep you and our staff safe, blah, blah (many of them were patronising to the extreme). One high fashion shop was requiring customers to wear muzzles!

I have to say that seeing the signs did not inspire confidence and if this is representative of retail in general then I get the feeling that they will put customers off and will be headed towards economic Armageddon.

26380 ▶▶ Sue, replying to Bart Simpson, 12, #401 of 1045 🔗

i agree – going to the supermarket is such a depressing experience with social distancing and muzzles and fear of people as they avoid you like a leper.. I can’t see see people flocking to the shops as a recreational activity as they used to as it’s just such a hassle and unpleasant. So the retail sector will unfortunately decline even further which is a real worry.

26564 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Sue, #402 of 1045 🔗

I think supermarkets may not be a good guide. Zombies go to them because even zombies have to eat. ( Waste of good food.) But they won’t need to go to ‘non-essential’ shops, so there should be a much better chance of encountering human beings there.

26575 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Sue, 2, #403 of 1045 🔗

Unfortunately we have to recreate the Soviet Union in order to survive but even people have their limits and I like you I seriously doubt many shops will survive this.

26452 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Bart Simpson, 5, #404 of 1045 🔗

Sadly, I imagine very few shops of any size will dare resist the SS!

26581 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to IanE, #405 of 1045 🔗

That is the problem I think – its not only the government but what are the odds that insurance is behind this as well?

26488 ▶▶ Rob Tyson, replying to Bart Simpson, 5, #406 of 1045 🔗

hopefully they lighten up a bit when they realise they aren’t attracting any customers

26578 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Rob Tyson, 1, #407 of 1045 🔗

By then it might be too late.

26339 grammarschoolman, replying to grammarschoolman, 12, #408 of 1045 🔗

Looks like Farage has become the latest to be cancelled for telling the truth about the BLM thugs. Shameful behaviour by LBC, who previously had seemed like a bastion of free speech.

26352 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to grammarschoolman, #409 of 1045 🔗

In what way cancelled?

26366 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Carrie, 4, #410 of 1045 🔗

I believe he has left LBC, with immediate effect. Possibly the OP was using “cancelled” in this sense:
cancelled or “cancelled culture” basically means if you or anyone does something thats considered “bad” (being racist,sexist, manipulative etc..) you would most likely be “cancelled” , basically means no one would look at you in a good way anymore, no respect , etc. this is mostly found on the internet and people who are mainly “cancelled” are celebrites and online influencers

26507 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Julian, 1, #411 of 1045 🔗

I know all about the cancel culture – I was asking in what way he had been ‘cancelled’, eg if his social media accounts had been deleted or if he had been ‘no-platformed’ or uninvited from some planned interview or suchlike..

26530 ▶▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to Julian, 4, #412 of 1045 🔗

He referred to the “BLM Taliban” in relation to the pulling down and damaging statues the wokerati disapprove of, so LBC has got rid of him.
Can’t insult the cultural vandals, but they can insult us.

26385 ▶▶▶ Sue, replying to Carrie, 2, #413 of 1045 🔗

farage’s evening show on LBC has been stopped with immediate effect, as in tonight!

26677 ▶▶▶▶ sam, replying to Sue, #414 of 1045 🔗

then we need to boycott LBC

26420 ▶▶ John Smith, replying to grammarschoolman, 4, #415 of 1045 🔗

It was never a ‘bastion of free speech’.

26451 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to John Smith, 5, #416 of 1045 🔗

Quite so – what about O’Brien; need I say more?!

26524 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to grammarschoolman, 3, #417 of 1045 🔗

“LBC, who previously had seemed like a bastion of free speech.”

Only up to a point. They’ll happily ban people – not overtly, but simply hang up on them if they call in. They’ll talk over someone they don’t want heard.
They got rid of Katie Hopkins as well.
They’ve done an excellent job of rubbishing the use of HcQ:


“His own government has warned the drug should only be administered for the virus in a hospital or research setting, due to potentially fatal side effects – so what is hydroxychloroquine? And why is Trump taking it?

Dr Chris Smith, a Consultant Virologist at Cambridge University Hospital, revealed why the myth has appeared that it may help protect you from coronavirus.”

This was just after the Lancet published that faked study on its use. I don’t know if they’ve told people that.

I’ve recently started to listen to TalkRadio with Julia Hartley Brewer instead of Ferrari….

26344 Nobody2020, replying to Nobody2020, 3, #418 of 1045 🔗


I’ve been following this article since early on. The data isn’t quite as up to date as on other sites but it’s a useful quick reference for excess deaths.

What I find striking is that the number of excess deaths not attributed to COVID-19 in just these locations is now 109k.

That’s roughly 25% of the total official COVID-19 death count in the whole world. Now I’m sure some might argue a lot of these could be undetected virus related deaths but equally some of the official deaths may not have been due to the virus, merely present. So let’s assume they cancel each other out for now and we still have an large proportion of excess deaths which if not virus related are likely due to lockdowns/restrictions.

You can see the countries the various degrees of lockdown by country on this site:


Countries that didn’t allow the virus to spread do tend to have lower excess deaths. Germany seems to be an outlier in that they enforced a strict lockdown later than other countries and also don’t have a particularly high excess death count.

26655 ▶▶ djaustin, replying to Nobody2020, #419 of 1045 🔗

Germany have not done so badly on euromomo’s z-scoring. Not as well as Finland, Norway, but the same as Denmark. Sweden fared less well.

The NYT are probably the best source of US data, particularly by county.

26371 percy openshaw, replying to percy openshaw, 17, #420 of 1045 🔗

Hi, Toby. Just wanted to say thanks for yet another marvellous effort. I particularly admired the essay by the Berkeley historian. I can’t say I enjoyed it because the reality – the totalitarian reality it describes is too sickening. Quite suddenly the vast mesh of “PC” and “woke” is tightening around us – people sacked for speaking; for normal utterance; for objecting to hysteria, for heaven’s sake. Under a nom de guerre, I post at Conservativehome. Answering some cheery chap who tells us that British people must adjust their sense of identity, I said no – we won’t, thanks. We warned our leaders that identity was involved in migration; they ignored us and now we’re expected to endure the humiliation we foresaw, without so much as a by your leave. The remarks were deleted by a “moderator”. Does this censorship come from fear? Indoctrination? Opportunism? Or conviction? The worst thing about totalitarian situations is that people can no longer tell. They are too ashamed and disgusted with themselves to admit the reality; it depresses them too much – so they obey the dictates of fear, take the shilling and resent anyone who reminds them of what’s really going on. They draw comfort from being part of the swarm and the rest of us, like Piggy and Ralph in Lord of the Flies, are lonely individuals, ostracised and threatened and isolated. It sounds exaggerated, but these are the conditions of a purge; of a Great Terror and the people who should stop it in its tracks are themselves in a funk. I almost wrote a blue funk, but it is clearly pink.

26449 ▶▶ IanE, replying to percy openshaw, 3, #421 of 1045 🔗

Ah yes, Conservativehome, the home of the blairite wing of the CON party: I don’t go there anymore, in case I pick up some ghastly infection!

26471 ▶▶▶ LibertyNotLockdown, replying to IanE, 3, #422 of 1045 🔗

Blair is one of the most evil people ever to rule Britain. You look at his record on removing human rights, on creating new antiterror powers which are immediately corrupted to take steps to dictatorship, and now his commentary at CogX on how surveillance is “good” and immunity passports are “necessary”. Pure evil behind a wide smile.

26372 Back To Normal, replying to Back To Normal, 1, #423 of 1045 🔗

Has anybody here figured out the best way to write to Boris personally? If so please share here.

I’m also thinking about a letter to Cummings – so again if you know how best to do that, please share here. Thanks.

26425 ▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Back To Normal, 2, #424 of 1045 🔗

It’s doubtful you’ll get a response I’ve had no response to two emails I’ve sent him.

26445 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to Bella Donna, 1, #425 of 1045 🔗

Equally doubtful is that it will get within a three-person separation from either. We are not only locked down, we are also locked out!

26462 ▶▶▶ Back To Normal, replying to Bella Donna, 3, #426 of 1045 🔗

What email address did you use?
I’m not actually bothered about a response, my tack is to write a personal letter that will appeal to his sense of legacy. I think legacy is what motivates him more than anything. If he gets to read it, I want to make him think. Whether he replies or not is irrelevant to me.

26741 ▶▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Back To Normal, #427 of 1045 🔗

Contrast that to the days of Maggie Thatcher, who was somewhat taken over by the Falklands War at the time so quite busy. I wrote to her in despair as I had been unfairly cut off from housing benefits by the DHSS (or whatever it was called in 1982, I can’t remember). I was unemployed and literally didn’t have a penny. I was about to lose my home. Just three days later I had two managers from the local DHSS office on my doorstep, saying that they had been sent by the Prime Minister who wanted my situation sorted out, and also a personal report sent to her as to what they had done. They were quaking, and certainly did sort it out immediately. I can’t see that happening with Boris. I know Maggie did many things people hated, but for that I have always held a soft spot for her.

26486 ▶▶ Rob Tyson, replying to Back To Normal, 3, #428 of 1045 🔗

maybe write it on a cornish pasty and he might at least pay attention to it

26516 ▶▶ Shep, replying to Back To Normal, 2, #430 of 1045 🔗

Perhaps by sending a letter to ‘Boris Johnson, PM,10 Downing Street’. I am not being rude Adam, it might get through as I am sure emails are too numerous to elicit a personal response whereas a hand written envelope might. )

26562 ▶▶▶ Back To Normal, replying to Shep, #431 of 1045 🔗

Thanks. Letter already in envelope for No 10 and emails sent per Lms2. I know it sounded a bit thick, but just wanted to hear if there were any other routes that might work.

26600 ▶▶ John P, replying to Back To Normal, #432 of 1045 🔗

Adam, I understand, but there are around 67,000,000 people living in this country.

You might not be the only one who wants to try this.

26990 ▶▶ grammarschoolman, replying to Back To Normal, #433 of 1045 🔗

Try the Mason Mills twitter account. A lot of people think that’s him.

26377 kh1485, replying to kh1485, 8, #434 of 1045 🔗

Have been trying all afternoon to get onto the TV Licencing website but it has been unavailable for several hours now. Perhaps it’s their way of ensuring you can’t cancel your licence …

26389 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to kh1485, 6, #435 of 1045 🔗

Ask your bank to cancel the DD – job done. No need to talk to Crapita if you don’t want to.

26393 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to JohnB, 1, #436 of 1045 🔗

Would do, but I paid up front for the whole year …

26432 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to kh1485, #437 of 1045 🔗

Do they refund you if you cancel?

26467 ▶▶▶▶▶ LibertyNotLockdown, replying to Farinances, #438 of 1045 🔗

No. I for one will simply not be renewing when my next one comes around. Have given up on BBC completely, their “news” is pure lies and all their other content is pretty rotten too.

26495 ▶▶▶▶▶ Marion, replying to Farinances, 1, #439 of 1045 🔗

Yes, my sister in law got a refund.

26499 ▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Farinances, 1, #440 of 1045 🔗

I think so, yes. Though they say they want ‘proof’ of why you want to cancel. I think it was Bart who said that you can just ignore that. Webiste still down but they are ” … working really hard to correct this …”!

26577 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to kh1485, 4, #441 of 1045 🔗

Ah, website down eh?
You can tick a box that declares you don’t watch live-streamed tv or iplayer. Hopefully that will stop a barrage of unsolicited mail.

26588 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to kh1485, 2, #442 of 1045 🔗

I was going to suggest cancelling your direct debit however looks like that’s not an option for you. I would suggest you keep trying or phoning them?

26711 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Bart Simpson, 2, #443 of 1045 🔗

Website back up this morning so have now cancelled my licence. And it felt rather liberating, I have to say. Now just need to find a decent radio station to listen to!

26774 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to kh1485, #444 of 1045 🔗

That’s good news and glad you managed to finally do it!

26803 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Pjb, replying to kh1485, 2, #445 of 1045 🔗

It has been mentioned several times here, but UKColumn is by far and away the most reasonable alternative news, IMHO.
A traditional presentation, new 45 minute show every Monday, Wednesday, Friday. Watch whenever you like.
They’re not perfect, they’re obviously resource limited, but beats the hell out of anything else.
If most people watched this instead of (or even as well as) MSM, things would be rather different.
Interesting history of opposition to common purpose.

26574 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to kh1485, 3, #446 of 1045 🔗

Or because so many people are wanting to cancel! I
t’s a 24-hour thing, so maybe try late at night?

26378 Tarquin Von Starheim, replying to Tarquin Von Starheim, 6, #447 of 1045 🔗

Fantastic – the ‘second wave’ of doom narrative has reared its ugly head again today and markets have taken it seriously and absolutely tanked. Seems to be driven by an increase in cases and hospitalisations in California, Florida, Texas, no sign that I can see of anything significant in Europe yet. Timing wise that’s surely a pretty direct correlation to the protests all last week.
Will be interesting to see how the BBC, Guardian etc report this, will any blame be apportioned to the BLM protesters / rioters?

26388 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Tarquin Von Starheim, 3, #448 of 1045 🔗

Gives those of us convinced it’s a load of bollox the chance to buy buy buy !

26405 ▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to JohnB, 3, #449 of 1045 🔗

It may be a load of bollox but then that only adds weight to the idea that the government is out to destroy everything and there is no restraining force. Perhaps better to hold off on the buy buy buy for now and perhaps buy buy buy some off grid living equipment in preparation for the apocalypse. Might be handy too when we setup sceptic town.

26563 ▶▶▶▶ Paul, replying to Saved To Death, 1, #450 of 1045 🔗

Sceptic town sounds okay to me,but it won’t be like Barter Town in Mad Max 3 will it ?.

26684 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Saved To Death, #451 of 1045 🔗

Concur re the off grid equipment, STD. Wouldn’t play games on the stock market otherwise.

26438 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to JohnB, 5, #452 of 1045 🔗

Much of it is indeed bollox, but the hit on the economy is very, very real and is going to be horrific.

26685 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to IanE, #453 of 1045 🔗

For sure.

26422 ▶▶ swedenborg, replying to Tarquin Von Starheim, 1, #454 of 1045 🔗

Why these states bordering Mexico? There is a peak just now in Mexico of Covid-19.Lots of Americans,green card holder coming back.Even reported in MSM.

26436 ▶▶ Laura Suckling, replying to Tarquin Von Starheim, #455 of 1045 🔗

Blame? One must never blame noble ‘protesters’. The cloak of righteous ‘correct think’ protects them.

26465 ▶▶ LibertyNotLockdown, replying to Tarquin Von Starheim, 1, #456 of 1045 🔗

I’m certainly hoping that the Israeli Prof, Isaac Ben-Israel’s mathematical patterns hold He’s not another bonkers epidemiologist, just a mathematician who openly admit he knows little of diseases, but recognises patterns in real data rather than models in crystal balls. He’s been finding that once cases got above a certain level in any country they shot up for a bit, peaked, and were on the downslope after 70 days, whatever measures the country did or did not take. A mighty strange pattern, but a real one in the actual measured data. I’m highly doubting a second wave in summer, but on the basis of what he’s said I can’t be sure that another wave might not arrive in late autumn when people pack inside more and filthy air con units get turned on. Can still be sure that a lockdown isn’t the answer though, we need loonies like Ferguson defunded and the money given to empirical researchers willing to use real data to try to work out how we’ve been so lucky with this pandemic and whether any factors that change in atumun might break that luck.

26483 ▶▶ Rob Tyson, replying to Tarquin Von Starheim, 4, #457 of 1045 🔗

That may be what the media says but in reality I don’t think the market falls have anything to do with ‘second wave’ fears… just that the markets have been very overvalued if you take into account the economic carnage that can only unfold when you stop most of the western economy for 3 months or more.

26506 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to Tarquin Von Starheim, #458 of 1045 🔗

It’s all being reported by the Marxist media, i.e. Guardian, N.Y. Times, CNN. None of them are averse to lying. I’m not saying they’re wrong, but they can’t be trusted either.

26386 FiFiTrixabelle, replying to FiFiTrixabelle, 30, #459 of 1045 🔗

I lost it today.
My MSP (Lib Dem) had not responded to my previous email, so got another this morning after I read the depressing headlines re job losses in the hospitality industry across Scotland. We are facing an abyss and our next ‘review’ is not until next Thursday. I thought, naively, that as he is in opposition and seeing the carnage being inflicted, he might want to at least raise the issue of Scotland’s snail pace easing of lockdown.
He replied, promptly! His email ended with ‘Finally, the main reason why we have managed to contain the mortality rate and infection rate is because of lockdown measures, not because it is any less deadly’.
He got a reply immediately..lock, stock and two smoking barrels. I am sick of this and have spent the rest of the day with my head in my hands. WTF is going on??

26398 ▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to FiFiTrixabelle, 7, #460 of 1045 🔗

If we cant find a way to hold these criminals to account we are doomed.

26598 ▶▶▶ John P, replying to Saved To Death, -1, #461 of 1045 🔗

Are you related to Private Frazer?

26457 ▶▶ LibertyNotLockdown, replying to FiFiTrixabelle, #462 of 1045 🔗

I’ve known some people in the Lib Dem party, they all despise the SNP for reasons I could never fully understand. Even when both were supposedly on the same side of the brexit debate. And this was before the SNP took the seat off the Lib Dem leader. To see Lib Dems backing up the illegal lockdown, and willing to stand by the SNP to do it, is highly disturbing. Do Lib Dems forget what The Lib and Dem in their name are short for? Two things highly incompatible with lockdowns I would hav thought.

26645 ▶▶ Bella, replying to FiFiTrixabelle, 1, #463 of 1045 🔗

It’s not fucking deadly you see you next Tuesday of an MSP.

26410 Peter Thompson, replying to Peter Thompson, 14, #464 of 1045 🔗

This as many youngsters know is the first weekend since March when the girlfriend / boyfriend can legally come over for some horizontal exercise . This actually may come as a surprise to Dr Whittey and the other adult train spotters of SAGE but I suspect that this rule has been ignored by a few already…

Just when you think peak clown world had already been reached we have the Health authority in New York urging partners to wear face masks before getting steamy in the sack.


26415 ▶▶ Poppy, replying to Peter Thompson, 13, #465 of 1045 🔗

I’m completely lost for words. Why is it that society has collectively forgotten how to be human?

26430 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Peter Thompson, 7, #466 of 1045 🔗

I just laughed til a little bit of wee came out

26431 ▶▶ Laura Suckling, replying to Peter Thompson, #467 of 1045 🔗

Really into clown world now!

26435 ▶▶ tonyspurs, replying to Peter Thompson, 3, #468 of 1045 🔗

Looks like there will be demand for en suite glory holes

26459 ▶▶ Moomin, replying to Peter Thompson, #469 of 1045 🔗

This has to be a joke right?’

26472 ▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to Moomin, 5, #470 of 1045 🔗

I imagine that the media are just making clickbait headlines now that there’s no actual danger to report on anymore.

26482 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Peter Thompson, #471 of 1045 🔗

Cue lots of New Yorkers visiting the sex shops and buying kinky masks . . . LOL

26561 ▶▶ annie, replying to Peter Thompson, #472 of 1045 🔗

This is merely laughable.

26569 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to annie, #473 of 1045 🔗

I would laugh but I don’t want to blow my mask off.

26594 ▶▶ Tenchy, replying to Peter Thompson, 2, #474 of 1045 🔗

This report brightened up an otherwise dull, miserable day. I particularly like “ Make it a little kinky,” the New York health department guidelines said. “Be creative with sexual positions and physical barriers, like walls, that allow sexual contact while preventing close face-to-face contact.”

Be creative with physical barriers like walls? ROTFL. What the hell is that supposed to mean? The only connection between wall and sex that I can think of is doing it against one!

26411 MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 26, #475 of 1045 🔗

Having mused for a day or two on the strange coincidence of the WHO’s mask advice changing 180 degrees, after several years, on almost the same day that the new directive from the UK government was announced, I decided to follow the money as it looked very much like ‘decision-based evidence making’.

After Trump pulled the $893m US funding for the WHO a couple of months ago, this left the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation as the biggest funder ($531m) but the kicker was the next biggest. Yes, you’ve guessed it – the UK at $435m! The next biggest, at $371m is Bill Gates’ GAVI to which our dear PM (you know, scared, hapless, poorly Boris) promised £1.65 billion of our money only last week. The WHO figures are 2018-19 but you get the picture. China donated $86m.

Coupled with the almost daily contradictions the WHO publishes about asymtomatic spreading, is it any wonder that so many people feel (and look) totally defeated and confused? Can anyone doubt now that this is a massive psyop?

26416 ▶▶ John Smith, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 18, #476 of 1045 🔗

The plandemic did not kill as many as they hoped so now they’ve reverted to starting a race war.

Nice people.

26535 ▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to John Smith, 2, #477 of 1045 🔗

Yes, really nice! Although to be honest we think BLM is much more likely to be part of ‘the spectacle’ and possibly dreamed up by one of the many US spook organisations. It’s a gift for European virtue signallers as well.

26446 ▶▶ PD, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 7, #478 of 1045 🔗

Couple this with Gates Foundations contribution towards The BBC and the Guardians in return for their supine reporting of Lockdown and it has a conspiracy written all over it.



26523 ▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to PD, 2, #479 of 1045 🔗

Thanks PD. Gates seems to be able to buy anyone or any organisation he wants! We were aware of the above and we keep bending people’s ears but they probably just think we’re crazed old buggers. At least we have the time to dig around online. Weirdly, knowing at least some of the worst is quite liberating – at least I don’t think we and other LS are deluded.

26642 ▶▶▶▶ Oliver, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, #480 of 1045 🔗

If he can’t buy them off with his wealth he just has his old company f*ck up their computer systems until they submit, most of the time he does this even to organisations he isn’t trying to pressure. Although in all seriousness I’m not sure if any suggestions about Gates being behind it all are plausible, I certainly am serious that using Micro$oft operating systems will bu*ger up any computing you wish to do. I advise Linux Mint or Ubuntu.

26500 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 6, #481 of 1045 🔗

Wish Trump could persuade Boris to pull our funding from both WHO and the Gates foundation..

26525 ▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Carrie, 4, #482 of 1045 🔗

Sadly, Carrie, I think it’s beyond Johnson’s power to do anything so constructive any more.

26644 ▶▶ Bella, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, #483 of 1045 🔗

Brilliantly researched Miriam. Can you point me to the source? I need to see if I can get it down to 140 characters and bung it on Twitter. I agree, exercise in social control. The more we can get this out there the more we can build resistance.

26790 ▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Bella, #484 of 1045 🔗

Thanks, Bella

I spotted the chart of main funders here


and then checked the figures on the WHO’s own website and various othere MSM sites. It all seems to check out but the France 24 site is the most useful because of the chart.

UK Column had the news about the GAVI funding but they said £1.7 billion – but news sites say 1.65. ‘Makes all the difference 🙂

26866 ▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, #485 of 1045 🔗

On it

26681 ▶▶ Digital Nomad, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 2, #486 of 1045 🔗

GAVI is in essence the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation’s piggy bank. Taxpayer money from western countries replenishes GAVI coffers. The funds get transferred to the said ‘foundation’. which then makes ‘donations’ to keep up the ‘philanthropy’ con. Follow the money, because it’s yours and mine.

26418 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 21, #487 of 1045 🔗

Remember the scare in the Somerset Hospital recently because of an uptick of Covid-19 cases? Quickly was blamed the opening of beaches behind this in MSM. Very upset medics warned about the reckless opening up in the UK. One even threatened to resign.
Seemed to be 60 false positive tests due to a machine error

26428 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to swedenborg, 4, #488 of 1045 🔗


In the next few weeks there’ll be story claiming the BLM protests have lowered the R through cross-immunity promotion. More false positives ;P

26447 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Farinances, 2, #489 of 1045 🔗

Actually that bit of fake news may not be so fake.

26433 ▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to swedenborg, 2, #490 of 1045 🔗

Thats our NHS! No doubt lessons will be learned but nothing actually improved.

26440 ▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to swedenborg, 11, #491 of 1045 🔗

Every report I’ve read concerning an uptick in cases/second wave after relaxing measures has proven false. Every. Single. One.

26463 ▶▶▶ Nic, replying to Nick Rose, 4, #492 of 1045 🔗

Exactly infection rate still falling

26497 ▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to Nick Rose, 9, #493 of 1045 🔗

It’s almost as if they actually want a second spike just to rub it in people’s faces for having the audacity of wanting their freedom back.

26504 ▶▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to Lms23, 8, #494 of 1045 🔗

Yes, I definitely feel as if there’s an undercurrent of finger-wagging and pessimism – whenever a lick of positive news is reported, governments/scientists come down on it like a tonne of bricks, insisting that the pandemic isn’t over/we’re in this for the long haul/no time for celebration, only caution/etc etc etc.

26583 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Poppy, 2, #495 of 1045 🔗

2nd wave ….2nd wave ….2nd wave …..

26639 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Oliver, replying to Cheezilla, #496 of 1045 🔗

The second wave is history’s worst recession and chinese commie party style dictatorship, against these covid-19 will look like nothing, however many waves it may or may not have.

26592 ▶▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to Poppy, 1, #497 of 1045 🔗

That’s an understatement !

26559 ▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Lms23, 4, #498 of 1045 🔗

I think they do. Same as they want oeoole in Sweden to die.
In fact they have a death wish.
Other people’s deaths.

26640 ▶▶▶▶▶ Oliver, replying to annie, #499 of 1045 🔗

And they have the cheek to call us heartless.

26475 ▶▶ Rob Tyson, replying to swedenborg, 1, #500 of 1045 🔗

There may be another reason for the supposed uptick in the southwest, which if true doesn’t reflect well on one of the hospitals down there either:

26604 ▶▶▶ Sarigan, replying to Rob Tyson, #501 of 1045 🔗

You seriously couldn’t write this as no one would believe you! The ‘Stock image of a Whistleblower, had me falling off my chair!

26448 assoc, #502 of 1045 🔗

Let’s get this track and trace procedure right. 26,985 people were phoned up by a complete stranger, told they might have been infected by someone who that person would not identify, and have willingly agreed to self-isolate, even though there are no legal sanctions to enforce it.
What percentage of that 26,985 does Mr Hancock believe will actually comply for even 24 hours, let alone the full 14 days. I’d guess less than 10%.
We are told that all track and trace calls will come from 0300 013 5000. Put it into your phone now, and put a block on it, now.

26454 Farinances, replying to Farinances, 22, #503 of 1045 🔗

Not much to say today, except I’m gonna make a dartboard out of Matt Handjob’s smirking face.

I feel it will improve my aim considerably.

26456 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Farinances, 12, #504 of 1045 🔗

He keeps using the phrase “civic duty” with impunity. Never has a phrase with such conservative connotations sounded so Communist.

26558 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Farinances, 11, #505 of 1045 🔗

I’m all for civic duties.
But they are balanced by civic, civil and human rights. rights.
Restore my human rights and maybe I’ll consider my civic duties.

26637 ▶▶▶▶ Oliver, replying to annie, #506 of 1045 🔗

Would upvote this mroe times if I could.

26469 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Farinances, 3, #507 of 1045 🔗

Fun idea, but I don’t think I could bear to have an image of any of the buffoons in my house. I’m very happy to anti-social distance the lot of them.

26476 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to IanE, 2, #508 of 1045 🔗

Actually that’s a point. Maybe I could blunt the pain by not wearing my glasses…. but then my aim most definitely wouldn’t improve 😉

26695 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Farinances, #509 of 1045 🔗

When you’ve mastered the darts, Farinances, throwing knives are great fun !

26474 ▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Farinances, 12, #510 of 1045 🔗

Not sure which is worse, his smirking face or patronising tone. He is a complete berk.

26479 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Farinances, 7, #511 of 1045 🔗

He is the archetypal headmaster talking to schoolchildren. Annoys me when he lectures about civic duty.

26591 ▶▶▶ John P, replying to CarrieAH, 1, #512 of 1045 🔗

You could try not listening to the creep. I’ve made a point of never listening to their sermons. Not even once. I’m still here. I’m still reasonably well informed.

26738 ▶▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to John P, 1, #513 of 1045 🔗

I don’t any more. But I do occasionally look at a Telegraph article just to see what nonsense the government are imposing on us now. It was there, in black and white (oh sorry, probably not allowed to use that term now!) about yet another civic duty remark.

26631 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Farinances, #514 of 1045 🔗

We need to revive this to inflict the worst punishment on him when this is over:


And chuck in Professor Lockdown as well.

26473 Tony Rattray, replying to Tony Rattray, 16, #515 of 1045 🔗

Parallel universe of common sense, scientific advice, proportional risk management (cost versus benefit) and the respecting of basic human rights

So, to summarise so far, this is what the uk government/s could have done:

· Feb / mar port of entry screening from abroad (the uk being one of the largest travel hubs in world so clearly at high risk);

· An even earlier shielding strategy for the most vulnerable (care homes; over 70s; individuals with significant underlying health problems);

· With the support of the private sector (decentralised partnership working) running track and trace from the start with an initial focus on the most vulnerable and hospitals;

· Yes, setting up the nightingale hospitals, but being full of covid patients, will the other potentially life and death core services of the nhs maintained elsewhere with volunteer support;

· Following the ever changing advice of the WHO (and later confirmed by the comprehensive lancet review) instructing human services to maintain 1 m distancing. 2 m if possible. In other words, as we all know, sweden.

· No large-scale furlough ing programme / claim culture. Rather, state payments for reduced business income where appropriate. Therefore maintaining cash flow in all service industries and significantly reducing business failure and long term unemployment. As toby et al. has stated, the idea of simply stopping and starting large sections of the economy is absurd without catastrophic consequences – mass unemployment, etc.

Outcome – yes, significant damage to the economy and the future well-being of the nation, but more akin to that of german and sweden (half as such!). And with the aforementioned actions, a strong possibility that deaths could actually have been reduced without a lockdown, particularly care homes in the short term. However our uk governments actually managed to fail on all the above! Hence, as toby has called it, lockdown will be remembered as the biggest post war policy disaster of the british state.

Also, in this case, hindsight is no excuse as the advice / information was there from start, including the approaches of other countries in certain areas and some of the sage guidance.

What we needed was wise leadership to interpret this in a quick and rational manner respecting our basis human rights whilst focusing the states resources on protecting the most vulnerable.

Instead, as things stand, the mainstream majority still believe the lockdown was the correct decision and that if we had simply done it sooner we could have saved many more lives in the uk.

However, by the winter this ‘tyranny of the majority’ will no longer hold with the full consequences of lockdown becoming apparent alongside greater evidenced-based scientific reviews. I predict the telegraph will be the first to fully turn with a front page headline as such. As david starkey has stated so well, historians will mock the ‘mad spring / summer of 2020’ when the uk lost the plot at the feet of the nhs and nanny state. Or perhaps more akin to the ‘big short’ movie in reverse where a small minority predicted the 2008 financial crash, the journalistic resource toby et al. has created will stand as testament to the mainstream lockdown folly.

Whilst of course acknowledging the human misery of covid-19, bravo lockdown sceptics!

26496 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Tony Rattray, 4, #516 of 1045 🔗

Good list. I would add ‘have kept schools open’!

26653 ▶▶ djaustin, replying to Tony Rattray, 1, #517 of 1045 🔗

You left off decentralize testing from PHE to local labs to enable rapid expansion of capacity for testing. Witty said as much yesterday.

26477 RDawg, replying to RDawg, 45, #518 of 1045 🔗

Was bored so I decided to create this lovely artwork… 😆

26510 ▶▶ FiFiTrixabelle, replying to RDawg, 3, #519 of 1045 🔗

RDwag…that’s cheered me up no end!! xx

26540 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to RDawg, 3, #520 of 1045 🔗

This is better than most of the stuff that wins the Turner Prize.

26556 ▶▶ annie, replying to RDawg, 1, #521 of 1045 🔗

Love it.

26621 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to RDawg, 2, #522 of 1045 🔗

Bwahahaha!!! Well done!

26638 ▶▶ Bella, replying to RDawg, 3, #523 of 1045 🔗

I’d give this twenty thumbs up if I could

26641 ▶▶ Bella, replying to RDawg, #524 of 1045 🔗

‘We shall be free’ is your Twitter handle isn’t it? (Or have I got the wrong person?) Are you going to share it on there?

26649 ▶▶▶ RDawg, replying to Bella, 2, #525 of 1045 🔗

Hi Bella. Yep, that’s right. I’ve stopped using Twitter for the foreseeable. Mainly because it was depressing me and really getting me down. The account is still active but I soon realised that Twitter is a bit of a toxic environment. I have to look after my own mental health.

26651 ▶▶▶▶ RDawg, replying to RDawg, 4, #526 of 1045 🔗

Sod it. I decided to post it on my Twitter after all 😉

26863 ▶▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to RDawg, 1, #527 of 1045 🔗

Good news, I shall find it and retweet

26865 ▶▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to RDawg, #528 of 1045 🔗

Can’t find it

26919 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ RDawg, replying to Bella, #529 of 1045 🔗


26481 kh1485, replying to kh1485, 16, #530 of 1045 🔗

Our local BID people are now asking businesses to post short videos on their cretinous WhatsApp page to illustrate their COVID-safeness. They want us to do a dry-run of a ‘customer’ navigating the arrows and showing the location of the spacing dots. Apparently, those videos already posted have gone down “well”. Oh dear … I fear I will be on the naughty step!

26505 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to kh1485, 8, #531 of 1045 🔗

I think I may do a spoof one in the style of Acorn Antiques . Give me something to do tomorrow!

26527 ▶▶▶ ambwozere, replying to kh1485, 3, #532 of 1045 🔗

Would so love to see your video, it’ll be amazing I’m sure.

26541 ▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to ambwozere, 1, #533 of 1045 🔗

#metoo! 🙂 What about a spoof of ‘Open all Hours’ as well?

26547 ▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 7, #534 of 1045 🔗

I am just imagining the censorious response I will get from the BID bods … The thing is, I have not had one customer asking for dots, arrows, perspex screens, anti-bac gel or anything. And, as I’ve said before, if someone wants all that crap every other shop in the town can oblige!

26570 ▶▶ Paul, replying to kh1485, 4, #535 of 1045 🔗

Those BID arseholes are really asking for a slap aren’t they,they inhabit a world of their own funded by hardworking people like you.Are they part of your local council ?,the similar thing around here is and the way they waste taxpayers money is an utter scandal,they love to throw thousands of pounds worth of grants at ridiculous no-hope start-up businesses whilst letting long established ones flounder and die.

26596 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Paul, 3, #536 of 1045 🔗

I’m not sure how we got lumbered with it. Someone decided we needed a BID and the local council went through the motions of giving us poor saps a vote on the issue. As far as I can gather, the voting is weighted in favour of larger businesses. As you can imagine the smaller independent businesses were largely not in favour but we got out-voted. I used to go to the meetings but I figured that bashing my head against a brick wall would be a more pleasurable experience. Their ‘initiative’ to drum up trade last Christmas was (I kid you not) to have grown men dressed up as elves, going round the town trying to drum up trade! What pisses me off atm is that they are all loving every minute of this. We’ve now got acid-pink spacing dots littering up the pavements and nannying signs everywhere, it looks absolutely bloody awful.

26816 ▶▶▶▶ Paul, replying to kh1485, 1, #537 of 1045 🔗

Yes,all that sort of crap sounds very familiar !,our council keeps tell us how much they have done to save everybody from the virus and basically how grateful we should be !.They have done absolutely nothing except put the fear of god into small takeaway businesses by implying they will have to close unless they install screens and wear masks etc.

26511 Tim Bidie, replying to Tim Bidie, 16, #538 of 1045 🔗

Someone has not been paying attention:

More than 60 per cent of new covid cases diagnosed at two hospitals in the Midlands in recent days were caught at least two weeks after the patient was admitted — suggesting there may be particular problems with the virus spreading on their wards.’

Health Service Journal 11 June 2020

26536 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Tim Bidie, 10, #539 of 1045 🔗

People were right about avoiding going to hospital.

In order to protect THEMSELVES – not the NHS!

26539 ▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Farinances, 3, #540 of 1045 🔗

(Unless you’re having a heart attack of course.

Don’t fear the corona-reaper. Your ticker-reaper is way worse).

26567 ▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to Tim Bidie, 3, #541 of 1045 🔗

I though BoJo said a couple of weeks ago that we had the very best testing and results would be available in 24 hours?

If I did not know better I would think that they want the numbers to go up.

26531 Nic, replying to Nic, 10, #542 of 1045 🔗

Intersting weekend ahead possible rioting maybe it will be live streamed looks like there might be some proper opposition there this time , and I dont mean the police!

26609 ▶▶ Sarigan, replying to Nic, 2, #543 of 1045 🔗

I saw that there are groups organising to protect monuments. Could be a very interesting weekend. Hoping for everyone’s safety and common sense but fear the worst.

26610 ▶▶▶ John P, replying to Sarigan, #544 of 1045 🔗

That last sentence makes you sound like the government !

26696 ▶▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to John P, 1, #545 of 1045 🔗

Government does not encourage common sense.

26634 ▶▶▶ Oliver, replying to Sarigan, #546 of 1045 🔗

Might be time to leave some signs by the base of the statues saying: “Yes we can debate about which historical figures are worthy of public commemoration, but how about we end this oppressive and discriminatory lockdown first. Statues do not move by themselves, they can still be here to argue over after we’ve seized back our rights.”

26538 Lms23, replying to Lms23, 10, #547 of 1045 🔗

The Truth About Face Masks (Dave Cullen)

Comment btl:
“2019: ban straws to save the planet
2020: everyone wear a new face mask daily”

26595 ▶▶ Hoppy Uniatz, replying to Lms23, 1, #548 of 1045 🔗

I still have my Dad’s old gas mask from 1940 so I can start wearing that next week! How environmentally friendly is that!!

26607 ▶▶ John P, replying to Lms23, 2, #549 of 1045 🔗

Vernon Coleman has done a good video on the dangers of wearing masks.

26544 matt, replying to matt, 32, #550 of 1045 🔗

In my boys’ school, each year has a “sailor class” – named after a famous sailor – and a “ship class” – named after… well, you get the point. Maritime connection for the area, you see.

They’ve just announced that, from next year, they will be renaming ‘’Drake’ and ‘Nelson’ classes because of “problematic connections with slavery.

_So_ glad they’re focusing on what’s important and not wasting their time doing things like educating children.

26551 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to matt, 15, #551 of 1045 🔗

Perhaps your boys should read this before it gets re-written:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Africa#:~:text=Slavery%20for%20domestic%20and%20court,of%20the%20Atlantic%20slave%20trade .

“Slavery in Africa
Slavery has historically been widespread in Africa, and still continues today in some African countries.

Systems of servitude and slavery were common in parts of Africa in ancient times, as they were in much of the rest of the ancient world. When the Arab slave trade (which started in the 7th century) and Atlantic slave trade (which started in the 16th century) began, many of the pre-existing local African slave systems began supplying captives for slave markets outside Africa.[1]”

“Barbary slave trade

The Barbary slave trade refers to slave markets on the Barbary Coast of North Africa, which included the Ottoman provinces of Algeria, Tunisia and Tripolitania and the independent sultanate of Morocco, between the 16th and middle of the 18th century. The Ottoman provinces in North Africa were nominally under Ottoman suzerainty, but in reality they were mostly autonomous.

European slaves were acquired by Barbary pirates in slave raids on ships and by raids on coastal towns from Italy to the Netherlands, Ireland and the Southwest of Britain, as far north as Iceland and into the eastern Mediterranean.

The Ottoman eastern Mediterranean was the scene of intense piracy.[1] As late as the 18th century, piracy continued to be a “consistent threat to maritime traffic in the Aegean”.[2]”

And Nelson’s crime?

You need to object to this revisionism.

26557 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to Lms23, 18, #552 of 1045 🔗

I’m well aware, yes.

Given that before Christmas, my younger boy’s whole year were made to sing a song about Nelson sailing around worrying that his crew needed to be “more diverse” before the battle of trafalgar, this is not a new phenomenon to me.

Just before the schools were shut, my older boy came home telling me that “coronavirus is the planet’s way of healing itself”, according to his teacher.

That one got short shrift from me too.

26674 ▶▶▶ OKUK, replying to Lms23, 5, #553 of 1045 🔗

China have been lecturing the Americans on slavery. It was abolished in law (but not in fact) some 45 years after the abolition in the USA. Han China still treats Tibetans and other nationalities as second class citizens, setting out to destroy their culture and prevent them from exercising any power in the country. Of course India still has virtual slavery with its class of “untouchables” and in many Arab countries domestic servant are treated like slaves. I doubt Yorkshire Tea will be lecturing Chinese, Arabs and Indians on these matters. But, hey, PC virtue signalling is no more about honesty than Puritan virtue signalling was back in the 17th century, when they tried to ban Christmas and hot cross buns.

26632 ▶▶ Oliver, replying to matt, 1, #554 of 1045 🔗

To my memories both Drake and Nelson opposed the slave trade, often raiding ships of other nations who carried slaves to the americas. I may have remembered wrongly, but am sure that if they weren’t actively opposing it neither had incidents directly supporting it either.

27229 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Oliver, #555 of 1045 🔗

I think Nelson supported it. This article suggests he had several important contacts in the W Indies –


26586 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Nobody2020, 3, #557 of 1045 🔗

Wow. The Guardian.

26706 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Farinances, 2, #558 of 1045 🔗

That mighty force for truth, yeah.
Exoect banner headline tomorrow:


26587 Nobody2020, replying to Nobody2020, 1, #559 of 1045 🔗


Only one story but if this happened in all care homes the death count would be about half what it is.

26625 ▶▶ Joseph Collins, replying to Nobody2020, 1, #560 of 1045 🔗

I’d wager they didn’t take in any patients from hospitals. In fact they locked down around the time the Govt issued a directive to the NHS to discharge elderly patients to care homes. I know of a couple of care homes who locked down early and took in no patients and so far no issues.

26646 ▶▶ Tom Blackburn, replying to Nobody2020, 1, #561 of 1045 🔗

I have visited multiple care homes at peak infection and undoubtedly the ones that fared best were the ones that locked people (illegally) in their rooms.

26589 Moomin, replying to Moomin, 29, #562 of 1045 🔗

Can somebody please just pull the plug on the government now and turn this off and make it all go away?! My wife has just told me about the summer school catch up thing and then I read hancock and civic duty in the same sentence and it makes me feel sick. Why do they just keep on compounding the disaster and not just own up and admit their error and will someone please tell everyone to stop listening to Neil Ferguson?! I’m at the end of my tether.

26611 ▶▶ John P, replying to Moomin, 4, #563 of 1045 🔗

“Can somebody please just pull the plug on the government now and turn this off and make it all go away?”

Would like to.

26605 Nobody2020, 10, #564 of 1045 🔗

Guardian again on their Coronavirus feed:

Sweden insists opening schools did not create virus outbreaks
Sweden’s decision to leave schools open for under-16s during the pandemic did not lead to any major outbreaks of Covid 19, according to Anna Ekstrom, the country’s education minister.
She said research by the Swedish Public Health Agency showed that Swedes working in education had not been more likely to be diagnosed with coronavirus than those in occupations.
Schools for older pupils and universities have been given the go-ahead to reopen from 15 June but for summer schools and courses only.
From Saturday, Swedes without any Covid-19 symptoms can travel within the country. On Sunday, elite sports can resume although no fans will be allowed to attend.

26619 Nobody2020, replying to Nobody2020, 3, #565 of 1045 🔗

Study suggests Coronavirus is seasonal:


It’s almost as if it’s an unvaccinated flu.

26661 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Nobody2020, 1, #566 of 1045 🔗

Lol –
except flu kills way more young people!

26668 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Farinances, #567 of 1045 🔗

There’s a wee bit in the back of my mind that wonders if some/many of these people were “killed” because of the treatment for COVID-19 somehow screwed with pre-existing conditions. This could explain deaths in hospitals. Care home and domestic deaths could have been simple neglect/lack of medical attention.

It could also explain the age factor and why the results differ so much around the world. Could it be down to the treatment I wonder.

26687 ▶▶▶ djaustin, replying to Farinances, #568 of 1045 🔗

Actually it doesn’t. Mortality in children from influenza is equally low. Influenza puts a lot more children in hospital though. Which was part of the justification for closing the schools.

Seasonality may be a reflection of contacts. We stay in when it’s colder and pass viruses on. But we’ve only had one season so early days.

26620 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 5, #569 of 1045 🔗


Interesting article about underestimating of true seroprevalence especially now with so many seroprevalence studies coming forward

“Growing evidence suggests that asymptomatic and mild SARSCoV infections, together
making up over 95% of all infections, may be associated with lower antibody titers than more severe infections Similarly, it is known that antibody levels peak a few weeks after infection and then decay gradually. Yet, positive controls used for assay optimization and validation are usually limited to samples from hospitalized patients with severe disease, leading to what is commonly known as spectrum bias. Sensitivities estimated from these sample sets may  therefore overestimate the actual sensitivity that the assay would have when applied to the general population, leading to underestimates of the true seroprevalence”

26683 ▶▶ djaustin, replying to swedenborg, 1, #570 of 1045 🔗

PHE are running a combined swabbing and antibody testing population study in the community. So by definition, mild to moderate patients. Results should be interesting. They’ve published their swabbing data (0.26% infected).

26800 ▶▶▶ guy153, replying to djaustin, #571 of 1045 🔗

The problem is that 0.26% is only 45 people. So they can look for antibodies in those 45 but it’s a small sample.

This is the Lübeck paper, which had a sample of 110 (thanks to swedenborg of course for the link): https://doi.org/10.1101/2020.05.30.20111393

What you need is somewhere like Germany or Iceland where loads of PCR tests were done early on mild cases. Then see how many antibodies those people have.

In the UK we only started doing either kind of testing too little and too late.

27157 ▶▶▶▶ djaustin, replying to guy153, #572 of 1045 🔗

They also have regular data in several 1000 blood donors – 6% average, 16% in London. Far more robust data.

27177 ▶▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to djaustin, #573 of 1045 🔗

Yes but that’s not a population of people who were PCR positive but with mild or no symptoms, which is what is needed to evaluate how many antibodies can be found in recovered mild cases.

26792 ▶▶ guy153, replying to swedenborg, #574 of 1045 🔗

Part of the problem is also inconsistency in different places. Milder cases often result in low levels of antibodies (as they found in Lübeck) but different test kits set the cutoff differently. So if you read about 30% in India, 50% in Bergamo, and 4% for Hong Kong evacuees returning from Wuhan how do you compare those numbers?

You posted a link the other day to the Indian testing in “containment areas”, and I think that story mentioned that they set the bar quite low to get a good judge of exposure. But the 4% for those guys coming back from Hong Kong (as they admitted in the paper) was using a high threshold, and (as they also conceded) was about three months after they were in Wuhan.

Even if you have access to the actual study and not just a news report, there often isn’t a comparable unit of actual antibody “titer”. In one of those I read (I think the HK one) the units used were “OD” or “optical density” which I think just means the colour something goes on the kit.

26622 AidanR, replying to AidanR, 19, #575 of 1045 🔗

A Black Market Haircut. I got one.

God it feels good. A stylist I’ve never met before, but recommended by my closest friends and really good (London good, not Bolton good). And such a gift for human interaction.

I think we both very much enjoyed the human interaction… well, we ended up having a 3hr chat about IT ALL. His elderly mum kept the coffee flowing and shared her fags with me.

On the one hand I’m over the moon. On the other I’ve just had a glimpse of what we’ve all been missing for the last 13 weeks or so. That’s 25% of a whole year by the way. I don’t know how I’m going to feel tomorrow.

If I feel down, I’ll go to the supermarket and flaunt my shiny new hair at all the people looking as bedraggled as I did this morning.

What times these are.

26624 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to AidanR, 3, #576 of 1045 🔗

Well done you. I had a DIY one – not great but I felt good given that my hair after it reaches a certain length refuses to cooperate

26633 ▶▶▶ AidanR, replying to Bart Simpson, 1, #577 of 1045 🔗

Did you manage to fit in 3hrs of talking to yourself and serving yourself coffee, cake and cigarettes?

26710 ▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to AidanR, 2, #578 of 1045 🔗

And asking yourself where you won’t be going on holiday this year 🙂

26712 ▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to AidanR, #579 of 1045 🔗

Nah. It was a brutal hacking – all done in half an hour.

26705 ▶▶ annie, replying to Bart Simpson, 3, #581 of 1045 🔗

Much annoyed, but not at all astonished, by the pathetic little link ‘What am I allowed to do now?’
People who ask that are generally aged under ten, aren’t they?

26743 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to annie, 1, #582 of 1045 🔗

This crisis has basically infantilised society and allowed TPTB to get away with treating us like idiots.

26626 John P, 9, #583 of 1045 🔗

As those of you who read my occasional scribbles here will know, I try, to write something a little different. Sometimes I make serious points, sometimes I attempt humour, and occasionally I might even make sense.

With that in mind I fear I maybe owe our beloved Home Secretary an apology for criticising her the other day. She’s apparently had a love letter from a number of Labour MPs and has declared that she will not be silenced.

Good for her – me neither!

This sounds like good news for the cause of free speech anyway. I am slightly amused by the fact that should she marry me she would be “Priti Pretty”. lol, oh dear. Well you have to laugh sometimes.

And in that spirit I declare that I look forward to seeing the head of Matt the Hancock on a platter and bumbling Boris burned at the steak. Medium rare!

I have, on occasional occasions of despair, thought of emigrating. Only three countries seem remotely appealing. Canada (because it’s big), but it’s unfortunately very woke. Japan, for I hope, obvious reasons, though the language appears impenetrable, and Russia.

I am an unapologetic Russophile and have been struggling to learn the language for a number of years. I was planning to visit the country for the first time this year. That’s clearly not going to happen now.

For those used to MSM tropes regarding Putin’s Russia, I suggest you may want to at least consider divesting of some of those opinions. The MSM is no more reliable in it’s coverage of Russia that it is in it’s coverage of coronavirus. IMO.

Well, I like to speak up for Russians. Russians are, on the whole, very nice people. And what’s more, they’re not nearly as “woke” as Canadians!

I note that Farage has been filming some deranged migrants in the English Channel who seem to think that the UK is a democracy. What’s the matter with these people? Why the hell would anyone want to come here?

I’m wondering if maybe I could use one of their boats to get off this prison island. Maybe I could paddle to Russia? I feel like Clint Eastwood: Great Britain is the new Alcatraz.

26628 crimsonpirate, replying to crimsonpirate, 2, #584 of 1045 🔗

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/06/11/revealed-sage-minutes-show-advisers-not-calling-early-lockdown/ apologies if this has been posted elsewhere but this appeared on the Telegraph website earlier. Sort of a kickback against the stuff that Ferguson is claiming . This is not news to anyone who reads this forum but good to see stuff ( ie kids struck by lightening) eventually gets into the mainstream.

26647 ▶▶ mark baker, replying to crimsonpirate, 4, #585 of 1045 🔗

Was disappointed that the journalist didn’t make the obvious point that scientists not only didn’t call for an early lockdown but didn’t call for a lockdown of any kind.

26630 Cheezilla, replying to Cheezilla, 14, #586 of 1045 🔗

I just wanted to say that I’m watching “The Magicians” and Quentin says: This is a spell. We’re all trapped in it and I’m the only one who knows.”

Thank God for you guys. I am not the only one who knows!

26704 ▶▶ annie, replying to Cheezilla, 7, #587 of 1045 🔗

Before long, everybody will be claiming to have known all along.

26732 ▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to annie, 1, #588 of 1045 🔗

I don’t have your faith. Something else usually comes along to muddy the waters. For example, if you predicted riots as a result of lockdown, you’d have been right, but the riots have, instead, been blamed on BLM. No riots will be pinned on government lockdown policy at all.

The media hates the government and wants to see it squirm, but they don’t have the vision to make the killer accusation: that the lockdown was unnecessary.

In any public inquiry, the basic narrative of the necessity for lockdown will not be challenged. It will be framed that the damage to the economy was made marginally worse by smaller operational errors. Why did they not have enough PPE on a particular day? How come they were 7.3% short of their testing target on April 12th?

And we are already seeing that people are concentrating on the idea that if lockdown had been brought in a week earlier, fewer people would have died – and no doubt the economy would have fared slightly better, etc. I suspect that the government might rather hold their hands up to this hazy, unsubstantiatable accusation than admit that the whole lockdown was unnecessary.

26635 djaustin, replying to djaustin, #589 of 1045 🔗

Only one comment on the Simon Wood paper (which I really enjoyed). It’s a nice analysis but has the benefit of considerable hindsight. It certainly helps with the debate about coming out of lockdown but cannot help with the debate about going in. What the graph you show really states is that once the peak of deaths is known with confidence, it is possible to infer the likely earlier peak of infections. That appears to be earlier than lockdown from this analysis, but has some dependence on the model used – observed cases (mainly hospitals) are not included in the analysis.

What I would like to see is what would the model predict with deaths ONLY up to, say March 16th? The week before lockdown, based on the analysis of available data, what would the author recommend? The expansion of the prediction interval at the end of the graph would be seen without a peak – things would blow up and healthcare predicted to be be swamped. That’s not a failing – if the data is limiting, so be it. That was my conclusion at that point – models could not give any confidence.

Your reading of the SAGE minutes agrees with mine. But hindsight is wonderful. I think it is hard to convey the limitations of “the science” only three months ago. Decisions are made by politicians, and are not taken with such hindsight But decisions must be made and with them comes accountability.

26664 ▶▶ OKUK, replying to djaustin, #590 of 1045 🔗

So you’ve given up on your BS claim last night that UK stats for Covid-19 deaths only record hospital deaths? Perhaps, as a fan of early lockdown, you’d like to explain why Belgium has such an appallingly high death rate for Covid-19, some 30% or thereabouts higher than the UK, despite locking down 6 days earlier than us, or why Japan, which never put in such a full lockdown, has such a low number of deaths.

26675 ▶▶▶ djaustin, replying to OKUK, #591 of 1045 🔗

OK one last time Belgium include all people who have died and SUSPECTED of having COVID19. The England only count people TESTED POSITIVE with COVID19. Belgium over-report deaths by about 50%. If we counted the 63,000 excess deaths from the ONS statistics published this week, we would have a rate of 1050/M in England. Are we winning yet?

26679 ▶▶▶▶ OKUK, replying to djaustin, 2, #592 of 1045 🔗

Once again you are spreading BS. That’s simply not true.

“Care Home Deaths are being recorded as Covid-19 related even if the victim has not had a positive test or shown any symptoms, it has emerged.”


Who are “the England” anyway?

Where’s your citation for Belgium over-reporting deaths by 50%? More BS.

There is absolutely no reason to count excess deaths as Covid-19 related. It is highly probable they are Lockdown-related.

Furthermore a positive test for Covid-19 is not a reliable indicator that someone “died from” Covid. Typically, at the end of life, a patient will have numerous pathogens in their lungs sapping their life force and taking them closer to death.
You would need a much more detailed analysis (impractical but not irrelevant to cause of death) to see how much virus load is in the patient. There is no particular reason to say they “died from Covid” if there are several other pathogens taking their toll.

26715 ▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to djaustin, 3, #593 of 1045 🔗

The lockdown was imposed with the benefit of hindsight.

On what data was it based?

Must have been 100% reliable, corroborated, rock solid data, to discharge thousands from hospitals, over 10,000 to an untimely death, kick children out of school, students out of university, shut down the economy, impoverish millions, more thousands of untimely deaths to come as a consequence of delayed medical treatment, must have been really good data to do all of that………or not really?

26776 ▶▶ guy153, replying to djaustin, 1, #594 of 1045 🔗

We could have easily come out of the lockdown after three weeks though. At the time we went into it I was sort of OK with it (to “flatten the curve” and prevent overshoot). In fact it looked like we’d lucked into just about the right time to have a 3 week lockdown. After three weeks, I assumed they would lift it as it was much clearer by then what was going on.

The same with Spain. It was clear just looking at the log deaths on worldometer that by the end of March the line was bending down, which was less than three weeks after the lockdown. But at the time of the lockdown (which was mid-March) you couldn’t have said with much confidence that the log deaths wasn’t a straight line (i.e. still exponential) with no way of knowing when it was going to bend down.

26809 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to djaustin, 1, #595 of 1045 🔗

I don’t think the scientists and modellers were behind the cold-blooded decision to put thousands of frail old people in harm’s way and deny them medical treatment.

On the other hand, Whitty and Vallance had pointed out the solution before the modellers came along: Wash hands a lot, protect the obviously vulnerable and use your common sense. Following their advice would have given a much better outcome all round.

Actually it would have made a much better slogan than their beloved 3 phrase one: Save the NHS: murder the elderly: tank the economy

Wash hands a lot: Protect the obviously vulnerable: Use your common sense.

26636 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 2, #596 of 1045 🔗

There is discussion in the US that increase of “cases” could be that employers start testing staff coming back to work like Tyson Food Arkansas
Tyson Foods Inc: Tyson Foods, Inc. Releases
Results From Covid-19 Test 06/11 20:12 *TYSON SAYS 198 TESTED POSITIVE AT SITE, ONLY 1 SHOWED SYMPTOMS

How do you interpret such a result? Sending home 20% of your staff for isolation? “Sick leave??”

Perhaps this idea of testing staff coming back to work will also spread to the UK.

26643 ▶▶ swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, #597 of 1045 🔗

Another tick up of 1000 cases in California the other day suspicion of a second wave in MSM
Nearly 1000 inmates test Covid-19  pos in Chuckawalla Prison
Not stated how many symtomatic but in US prison usully 95 % asymptomatic earlier.

26650 ▶▶▶ djaustin, replying to swedenborg, #598 of 1045 🔗

The US stock market it not happy, they had priced in a relaxation of lockdown. But I would like to see positive cases/100k tests. More cases will be found due to more testing – so you must control for this in the denominator. That does not mean a second wave (although I do not rule one out). deaths will be less sensitive to testing – all-cause deaths less sensitive still. Wales data shows a similar effect, but prolonged rather than an upswing.

As for testing staff – if you work in any form of care facility, definitely. In an office without symptoms? Less certain.

26657 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to djaustin, 3, #599 of 1045 🔗

The only people who merit any mass testing programme whatsoever are workers in medical and care environments.

26666 ▶▶▶▶ OKUK, replying to djaustin, 1, #600 of 1045 🔗

“More cases will be found due to more testing – so you must control for this in the denominator.” That makes no sense at all. What difference does controlling the denominator make? It could be a million, 100K or 100. Makes no difference.

26673 ▶▶▶▶▶ djaustin, replying to OKUK, 1, #601 of 1045 🔗

Think about it for a few seconds before you type.

I only have 100 tests and I use them all – I find 2 cases. The following week I have 200 tests and I use them all as well. I find 3 cases. Oh cases are going up! The ratio of tests to cases is 2/100 and then 3/200 – hmmm looks like the ratio is going down. That’s what we mean by prevalence – proportion of tested who are positive. You need the denominator.

In the beginning in hospitals, it is assumed that everyone who needs a test gets it and you find everyone (actually this may not have been completely true). Out in community testing, you need the denominator.

26676 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ OKUK, replying to djaustin, 1, #602 of 1045 🔗

You’d have to be a very, very stupid person not to understand that – that a rise in the numerator does not necessarily mean there has been a rise in the percentage of positive tests or the absolute number of cases.

You’re not “controlling” the denominator in any way as you claimed – you’re just doing tests. And of course you “need” a denominator because that’s what a ratio involves!

“In the beginning in hospitals, it is assumed that everyone who needs a test gets it and you find everyone (actually this may not have been completely true).” That makes no sense either.

You needed a denominator in hospital as well, to understand the proportion of emergency admissions related to the new virus – important information.

I think what you might be struggling to communicate is that testing in hospitals is more diagnostic than epidemilogical in character. But of course diagnosis is still important in relation to community testing as well.

26728 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Nic, replying to OKUK, #603 of 1045 🔗

Exactly there are millions of people who are positive or who have had the virus that we will never know about.
On worldometet cases are climbing but deaths remain about the same which means that there is just more testing happening.

26723 ▶▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to djaustin, #604 of 1045 🔗

“you must control for this in the denominator”

Were you doing this when you concluded that cases in the UK were doubling every three days? That site I pointed you to suggested that it was not, in fact, doing that once the denominator was taken into account.

26745 ▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to djaustin, 1, #605 of 1045 🔗

Surely the problem here is that, regardless of the comparative numbers, you’re still not comparing like to like. I’m not aware that California has had mass-population testing, so you’re comparing a set of tests where only people who have symptoms are being tested with a set of tests where everyone is being tested, symptoms or not. The latter says something potentially interesting about the prevalence of asymptomatic cases in the community on that day, but nothing about any possible increase in infections.

26656 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to swedenborg, 11, #606 of 1045 🔗

I still don’t understand why the frig anybody cares about asymptomatic cases.
We’ve all been walking around year in, year out, infected with numerous things and not showing any symptoms whatsoever. Why the hell does this benign virus suddenly have to change that?

26660 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Farinances, 9, #607 of 1045 🔗

Because for the scientists it’s the first Xmas present that Santa’s ever given them and they’re afraid he may never come back with another present. So they want to get the most out of this one present.

26662 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Nobody2020, 3, #608 of 1045 🔗

They really are loving this aren’t they. Maybe even more than the meedja

26694 ▶▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to Nobody2020, 2, #609 of 1045 🔗

I think frauds posing as scientists would be a more accurate description.

26652 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 5, #610 of 1045 🔗


This article has many things about lockdown which are well known in this forum. However, there were two things which I haven’t noted earlier. Flu deaths increased in the US when the lockdown started, which is strange considering influenza spread as Covid-19. The other information that essential workers in New York city had lower seroprevalence for Covid-19 than the lockdown population. A bit surprising that they were not more infected due to their supposedly higher exposure than the lockdown population.

26654 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to swedenborg, 5, #611 of 1045 🔗

A strong suggestion that lockdowns increase the risk of infection or make the infection worse. This is backed up with the data showing flu deaths increasing after lockdown.

Call it confirmation bias but it certainly adds to my suspicions that government actions made the situation worse than it might have been.

26703 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Nobody2020, 7, #612 of 1045 🔗

Stands to reason. Lock healthy people up with unhealthy people with infectious diseases, healthy people get ill.
Rocket science, yeah.

26658 ▶▶ OKUK, replying to swedenborg, 5, #613 of 1045 🔗

Hmm… lack of Vitamin D due to being confined to their dwellings? New York doesn’t have as many open spaces as even London, so lack of sunlight could be quite a factor.

26665 ▶▶ Sally, replying to swedenborg, 1, #614 of 1045 🔗

Exactly the same thing happened in Bergamo: health workers, considered at high risk, had lower seroprevalence than the general population, which had been in lockdown: https://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2020/06/09/over-half-of-people-tested-in-italys-bergamo-have-covid-19-antibodies.html

26722 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to swedenborg, 2, #615 of 1045 🔗

“essential workers in New York city had lower seroprevalence for Covid-19 than the lockdown population”

Maybe it’s because they spend less time trapped inside, but I was speculating a couple of weeks ago as to whether supermarket workers would turn out to be less susceptible than many other people because of their constant, repeated low level exposure to so many viruses.

26669 Joe Avenel, replying to Joe Avenel, 2, #616 of 1045 🔗


26691 ▶▶ Kath Andrews, replying to Joe Avenel, #617 of 1045 🔗


26759 ▶▶ RDawg, replying to Joe Avenel, #618 of 1045 🔗


26707 Jane Harry, replying to Jane Harry, 5, #619 of 1045 🔗

‘but it is RT , so treat with caution’- why pick on this source? these cautionary words should be added to every msm source you use

26708 Jane Harry, replying to Jane Harry, #621 of 1045 🔗

the letter by the anonymous history professor has been taken down. did you save a copy?

26716 ▶▶ Mike Smith, replying to Jane Harry, #622 of 1045 🔗

If they could work out it was him, he might well lose his job, so i f he’s decided to withdraw his letter I think we should accept that. So if anyone does have a copy, I think they should keep it to themselves.

26868 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Mike Smith, #623 of 1045 🔗

Tough one. He/she obviously wanted it to reach a wider audience. It really is an excellent summation of the situation, and should be widely read.

Very sadly, I think he/she has already done enough to get sacked just in writing the article.

26713 Peter Forsythe, 3, #624 of 1045 🔗

“Slightly off topic and not funny, but this letter by an anonymous history professor at the University of California, Berkeley, taking issue with some of the claims made by the Black Lives Matter movement, as well as the uncritical way in which they’re accepted and regurgitated by American universities, is a must-read. No doubt as soon as his identity is discovered he will be subject to a mobbing and may very well lose his job .”

Maybe not lose his job, but the article has been removed!!

26717 Mike Smith, replying to Mike Smith, 1, #625 of 1045 🔗

Katie Hopkins talking about the young men who tried to protect the statue of Churchill in Parliament Square:
Especially 0:39 to 1:15

26782 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Mike Smith, #626 of 1045 🔗

Powerful little speech and she raises some important points, though I suspect the “lads” weren’t as sweetly innocent as she makes out. I’m sure they’d gone prepared for a good scrap.

Can’t stand Churchill myself – come from what used to be a mining area – but I understand what his icon represents.

I don’t support violence of any description, including psychological and biological warfare – from which we’re all currently under attack.

26719 TJN, replying to TJN, 1, #627 of 1045 🔗

Following my post on Perspectives on the Pandemic, Episode 9, yesterday (and the posts here on this subject of the day before that), in the interests of balance here’s what appears to be the beginning of a heated rebuttal of the nurse’s account:


It’s difficult to know what to make of what happened in that hopsital. My initial feeling is that the truth has many sides.

But we are still left with the question: why, why was New York so bad?

26720 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to TJN, 2, #628 of 1045 🔗

It’s fascinating. The rebuttals of the nurse on ZDogg’s web site are not completely convincing. For example, a doctor writes:

“While it is true that some patients tested negative, those patients all had horrendously deranged inflammatory makers (with distributive shock on pressure) and chest x rays clearly demonstrating lung injury. In this case the responsible thing to do is to assume covid positive and give the available treatment.”

The impression is that someone with flu, for example, could easily be assumed to have Covid. I don’t know whether the treatments are different, but the doctors do seem to be following a narrative (or hysteria) where a patient who didn’t have the disease might easily contract it in hospital or be given the wrong treatment. As I mentioned the other day, here in the UK I knew someone who ended up in hospital in a coma on a ventilator in January as a result of flu. A month or two later, and she would presumably have been assumed to have Covid even if she had tested negative.

26725 ▶▶ Sarigan, replying to TJN, #629 of 1045 🔗

A friend challenged the video and asked how we know it’s genuine, as you should do. The nurse is anti vaccine, that much is true but unless she is going to make shed
loads off money somehow, then why make the video? Journeyman have a long history and would they risk their reputation? She makes very inflammatory comments that could get her in a lot of trouble if completely false but makes no effort to hide her identity. ZDogg has posted rebuttal videos of just about everything but I find him less convincing. The stories he posts from Elmhurst could be true but could be ass covering.

Will we ever know the truth? I doubt it.

26742 ▶▶▶ TJN, replying to Sarigan, 2, #630 of 1045 🔗

Offlands and Barney M – thanks for both your replies.

I haven’t read Dr Z’s material yet, but will do so. Doubtless more rebuttals will follow, followed by rebuttals of the rebuttals; until without a proper inquiry all is lost in a mire of claim and counter-claim, and emotion. Pretty well standard for the whole covid debate right now.

I am confident (or want to be confident) that the great majority of the medical staff at that hospital were doing their best, at huge risk to themselves, in extremely difficult and distressing conditions – hence Dr Z’s anger.

But it also seems clear from the data that something has gone horribly wrong in New York, which of itself demands an explanation. The nurse’s account does at least offer something of a part explanation, which in turn lends it credibility.

As I posted yesterday, right now the best I can think is that the hospital – in common with almost every other institution, in the UK and US at least – appears to have been trapped in the narrative, established back in early March, of there being a tsunami of covid cases coming, which would overwhelm the hospitals and lead to medieval scenes of death and suffering. Given what was ‘obviously’ coming, normal standards of rationality and protocol would have to be abandoned.

Even when it became clear that the apocalyptic scenario was not going to be realised, these institutions have seemed unable to give up the original narrative. It’s as if they were actors in some pre-scripted play, in which they saw their parts – duty even – to fulfil and live up to that narrative, almost as a form of collective autosuggestion.

It’s as if as a society we have sought to create what we most fear.

26756 ▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to Sarigan, 7, #631 of 1045 🔗

I am not anti vaccine but I am anti mandatory vaccine and anti coercing people into having vaccines. All I have seen so far is this nurse campaigning against mandatory vaccine and coercion. Is she actually anti vaccine? Not all vaccines have the same risk/reward trade off.

26762 ▶▶▶▶ Sarigan, replying to Saved To Death, 1, #632 of 1045 🔗

A very valid point and the distinction is very important. I will try and find more information on her, the Zdogg post mentioned she has a website but I couldn’t find one. I shall search.

26772 ▶▶▶▶▶ Sarigan, replying to Sarigan, #633 of 1045 🔗

She was also not the first nurse to raise concerns about NYC:


Erin does have a book coming out so financial gain may be an incentive. She appeared on Fox:


This article seems to suggest she is actually some sort of undercover intel agent:


I need to reread to understand fully.

26779 ▶▶▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Sarigan, #634 of 1045 🔗

“Zdogg post mentioned she has a website”

In itself, that’s could be a very effective tactic. For sure, when I heard him say that I presumed it must be true, and my mind filled in the blanks: she’s something of a professional troublemaker with an axe to grind so treat her testimony with increased scepticism. It didn’t really occur to me that maybe she doesn’t have a web site.

 I, too, am susceptible to the simplest tricks to smear someone.

26841 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Barney McGrew, 1, #635 of 1045 🔗

I’ve spent a few minutes looking for her website. Given what a hot topic she is at the moment it would be pretty prominent in an internet search. Didn’t find anything.

26721 Winston Smith, replying to Winston Smith, 15, #636 of 1045 🔗

Yet again, I wake up in this nightmare.

It’s getting worse, not better.

There is no end in sight, rumours of ‘a second wave and a winter lockdown.

The Cenotaph and Churchill’s statue has been boarding up in preparation for the far-left violent demonstrations.

And we are just taking it.

Are we so evil?

26724 ▶▶ Nic, replying to Winston Smith, 13, #637 of 1045 🔗

One thing,we could never afford a second lockdown it wont happen and people wont put up with one either,

26727 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Nic, 13, #638 of 1045 🔗

The soaring unemployment rate and number of bankruptcies will see to that – lockdown and antisocial distancing will be discredited.

26761 ▶▶▶▶ IanE, replying to Bart Simpson, 4, #639 of 1045 🔗

Yes, as the furlough unwinds, the utterly appalling damage will start to be revealed. Our politicians had better be ready to go down into the nuclear fallout bunkers!

26765 ▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to IanE, 8, #640 of 1045 🔗

From July onwards, companies will have to contribute more and I seriously doubt that many of them have the funds to do so hence its possible that we will be seeing loads of redundancies from next month.

Am still convinced that we will be seeing rioting before summer is over or from October onwards.

26823 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Bart Simpson, 5, #641 of 1045 🔗

Which will bring in martial law. Someone please convince me that this wasn’t all part of the end game.

26831 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Bella, #642 of 1045 🔗

Hopefully that won’t happen as fingers crossed that people have already woken up to the fact that they have been taken for mugs.

26844 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Sylvie, replying to Bella, 1, #643 of 1045 🔗

I do wonder if some of the difficulty the govt has in rowing back from the scary messages put out at the outset could be because they turned to their own counter terrorism people to write them :
The similarity in the messages, Stay Safe, Remain Vigilant a.k.a. Stay Alert, is noticeable.
Some of these videos would be worrying if they weren’t so hilarious.

26896 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Sylvie, 1, #644 of 1045 🔗

We had to watch one of those for work.

It became known as “Run, Hide, Be Home in Time for Tea”.

26926 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to JohnB, #645 of 1045 🔗

Like ‘duck and cover’ to protect you from a nuclear attack

26858 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Bella, 2, #646 of 1045 🔗

It’s all in the Coronavirus Bill, in black and white. Just like the Austrian Corporal said what he was going to do in Mein Kampf.

We never learn……

26781 ▶▶▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to IanE, 4, #647 of 1045 🔗

If they think BLM is causing them problems they haven’t seen anything yet.

26750 ▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to Nic, 17, #648 of 1045 🔗

Its not like we could afford the first lockdown. People have been happy to see 3 weeks turn into 3 months and have their business wiped out after being made illegal and many are still keen for more – why not 3 years?

Perhaps just my morning pessimist speaking but if I have learnt anything over the last 3 months its that the most the British public do not deserve the prosperity and liberty that was handed to them on a plate and are more then happy to give it all away.

26768 ▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Saved To Death, 15, #649 of 1045 🔗

I agree. What I have found staggering is the public’s supine acquiescence. No questioning, no fightback, no nothing. As I’ve droned on about before, very few people I have spoken to seem to be remotely concerned about the economic disaster that is hurtling our way.

26828 ▶▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to kh1485, 8, #650 of 1045 🔗

Yeah, we’re cushioned on here. It’s like we live on a sunny island and all around us it’s raining. I had occasion to write to the managing agents of the sheltered accommodation where my mother lives complaining that they have removed the chairs from the communal gardens when the elderly (well all of us) need their vitamin D. Conceding my point in her reply the area manager went on ‘but we have to do all we can to protect people from this awful, deadly virus.’ In other words this isn’t the flu or anything like it, it is the Black Death.

26898 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Bella, #651 of 1045 🔗

She sounds like the very worst kind of functionary. Reminds me of the Environmental Health Officer I have to deal with. They don’t deal in common sense or reason, they just parrot blind adherence to the rules. The added trouble is that, as I said the other day, everyone has been scared witless by Public Health bodies banging on about how bad the sun is for you When I (finally) got my meeting with representatives of the hospital where my mum died, the head cli

26904 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to kh1485, #652 of 1045 🔗

oh dear, pressed ‘enter’ by mistake …


the head clinician said to me that he dreads summer in this country because PHE always tell people to drink loads of water and it ends up with his hospital seeing a spike in hyponatremia cases. Since hearing that, I have been sceptical of any kind of health advice given by PHE.

26934 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to kh1485, 2, #653 of 1045 🔗

Don’t get my blood boiling by talking about jobsworths. I’ve had to deal with H&S crazies in my role as a resident in my flats. They’re bonkers and you can’t reason with them because of the ‘regs’. Bottom line, why would you do a job like that unless you were either stupid or desperate?. I’m old enough to remember a culture where you were encouraged to be creative in problem solving and use common sense.

26834 ▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to kh1485, 3, #654 of 1045 🔗

Unfortunately there is still some people who think their wealth or situation (good pension, no mortgage or rent) will cushion them from the effects of the lockdown. Others think that our health should come first not the economy.

They forget that a healthy economy also means healthy people and as for those who think that their situation makes them immune, how will they react if the Treasury raids their pensions to pay for all the borrowing we’ve done to keep us afloat?

26797 ▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Saved To Death, 3, #655 of 1045 🔗

Yes, but we weren’t and they’ve given away ours as well.

26775 ▶▶▶ Gillian, replying to Nic, 5, #656 of 1045 🔗

Pres Macron in France has reportedly said that there will be no second lockdown in France.

26726 ▶▶ Poppy, replying to Winston Smith, 24, #657 of 1045 🔗

I really don’t think there’s appetite for a second nationwide lockdown, not after the damage this first one has done. The government knows it’s made a huge mistake, it just doesn’t want to admit it so it doubles down on it, making it look like it still agrees with lockdown.

Furthermore, by winter, I predict things will be much worse than they are now so people won’t want to adhere to a lockdown; they’ll have far bigger fish to fry. The furlough scheme will have ended and the economic reality will be finally biting. Scary reports today in the BBC of the economy contracting by 20.4% in April, and that’s just the start. I imagine there will also be much more illness going around this winter, what with NHS waiting lists growing to unprecedented levels and once the consequences of locking up healthy people and making them live unnaturally for months finally start to manifest.

When more and more people are unemployed, unwell, and on the brink, they won’t give a single s**t about observing lockdown – the thing which made them lose everything in the first place.

26754 ▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to Poppy, 5, #658 of 1045 🔗

More illness(the mutated second wave!), NHS overwhelmed – sounds like the perfect ingredients for another lockdown.

I think you give the British public too much credit. They’ll be installing their immunity passports and queuing up for their questionable vaccine and will be more then happy to continue to violate your natural rights. Anything to save the NHS!

26839 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Saved To Death, 3, #659 of 1045 🔗

That is what worries me – that the ‘plan’ is to wear the people down so much that they will readily accept tracing, immunity passports etc. Especially people who have lost their jobs, if there are new laws which only allow people to work if they have an immunity passport

26940 ▶▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Carrie, #660 of 1045 🔗

And those jobs will be tantamount to slavery I’m guessing

26763 ▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to Poppy, 6, #661 of 1045 🔗

Poppy, I was watching a financial video a week or so ago and it was saying one outcome of this is that a proportion of people will be a lot more frugal. They will minimise spending. Try and save more. Buy guns and ammo (in the US).

They will also simplify their diet, look after themselves and try and maintain health without pills and the like. So yes maybe more vitamins and simpler foods. With the odd extravagance.

As Nassim Taleb calls it: The Barbell strategy.

This is what the Preppers do. So it looks like a few more will start to do it

What they were saying is that it doesn’t need a lot of people to do this for it to have amplifying effects on the economy.

This time of frugality was coming anyway due to the Everything Bubble of the stock market, but the Covid nonsense has caused it to happen in a very short time.

That little change will have large effects going down the road and a reaction to it may be even more draconian laws with subsequent public reactions.

The thing I find ironic is that I grew up in the Troubles, where Northern Ireland had Emergency Powers to detain people and basically come into people’s homes and do all sorts. There was also a bias in against Catholics. Phone lines were bugged (but we all knew that). You were distrustful of the police and army. You put your head down and avoided the more fervent people.

I moved to England 20 years ago loving the fact that none of this crap was happening in the mainland. Well, welcome to Northern Ireland.

You can guess what will happen if this continues for many more months.

26936 ▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Poppy, #662 of 1045 🔗

If I’m right about the end game then they (the c u next Tuesdays) will have thought of that.

26780 ▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Winston Smith, 1, #663 of 1045 🔗

No we’re not evil they are.

26786 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Winston Smith, #664 of 1045 🔗

We or They?
There’s evil by action and evil by complicity.

26805 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Winston Smith, 5, #665 of 1045 🔗

Yes, just as we meekly accept the hounding and sacking of traditionalists for expressing perfectly legitimate opinions, that we should be at least requiring respect for as such even if people might choose to disagree with them.

What I am struck by is the similar response to expressing heresy on either coronapanic or BLM. In both cases there is often a general and very evident discomfort in the listener, and a clear feeling on their part, sometime openly expressed, sometimes not, that you are saying actually nasty things. Uncaring, selfish things, even perhaps criminal things in the case of anti-BLM because of the way we have allowed speech to be criminalised in the area of race.

The result is both socially costly, and dangerous for anyone active in the public sphere, because you will not be defended if you lose employment or face aggressive action against you.

These are both modern plagues, and we are probably weak to both for culturally similar reasons, but I feel that while the coronapanic is doing more short term damage, the BLM hysteria is more dangerous longer term. It is a brewing Cultural Revolution, and the kind of zealots who seek to destroy symbols of resistance to their dogma and drag down anyone who dissents from it are exactly the kinds of people it is most necessary to stand up to. We are doing the opposite of standing up to them. Our leaders are kowtowing to them, and those who might resist are being picked off, alone and largely unsupported, because nobody is prepared to properly resist the underlying premises.

26857 ▶▶▶ Edna, replying to Mark, 1, #666 of 1045 🔗

My husband emailed me this link yesterday (not sure why he had to email it when he’s only working upstairs!!) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Olds
Though I know a little about the Cultural Revolution in China, I hadn’t realised how it started. It all sounds scarily familiar.

26946 ▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Edna, 3, #667 of 1045 🔗

Yeah,the Taliban and Daesh have been pretty adept at destroying cultural artefacts so it’s only right that we show our tolerance by following suit. Statues are art, so look to the censoring of plays next. Then the burning of books, lah di dah. And if some moron claims that me defending art means that I am defending colonialism just go and do one now. I’m all for the merits of debating the appropriateness of whether the damn things should be there, but I’m not in favour of wilful and indiscriminate destruction. I have solid links with the theatre and there was a time when all plays had to be submitted to the Lord Chancellor for possible censorship before getting a pass. That’s why playwrights came up with dialogue such as “Kin ‘el” so the dickhead censors wouldn’t get it. There was mighty relief when that censorship was abolished. but, hey, we’ve come full circle.

26729 Poppy, replying to Poppy, 38, #668 of 1045 🔗


UK economy shrinks record 20.4% in April due to lockdown
I am pleased that the BBC is starting to change its language – the economy didn’t shrink ‘due to the pandemic’, but ‘due to lockdown’. The MSM tide is clearly turning.

However, this sort of figure would make shockwaves around the world and be completely terrifying if it were recorded in any normal time. It still is terrifying.

And yet here we are, still hiding behind our sofas, denying children the right to an education, single people the right to a physical human relationship, denying the right to freedom of movement and travel, denying the right to any normal life, scared of a virus which kills a very specific subset of the population who can be protected with less stringent measures, and which has an IFR on par with seasonal flu.

Collective psychosis. It’s like living through a really s**t Derren Brown experiment.

26733 ▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Poppy, 10, #669 of 1045 🔗

Poppy, I feel exactly the same 🤬

26737 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Poppy, 8, #670 of 1045 🔗

Agreed Poppy

26739 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Poppy, 7, #671 of 1045 🔗

Well said and agree with you that the MSM tide is clearly turning.

That is a worrying figure and Lord knows what the unemployment figures are like.

26796 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Bart Simpson, 7, #672 of 1045 🔗

Worrying?It’s bloody cataclysmic.
Another ‘Christ’ from Ballless Boris perhaps?

26835 ▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to annie, 1, #673 of 1045 🔗

Just goes to show how much our politicians live in La-la land

26758 ▶▶ daveyp, replying to Poppy, 10, #674 of 1045 🔗

“The MSM tide is clearly turning” – no chance! If I had a pound for every time this has been said in the comments on this blog I’d be a rich man.

Every MSM outlet is still very much pro-lockdown (even the Daily Mail), turn on any TV channel today and it will all be about COVID-19, they can’t get enough of it as the majority of people in this country believe it.

They only produce articles that look sceptical once in a blue moon, and the reason for this is that if they are accused of being biased, then they can point to this one article to show that they gave the opinions of both sides.

26881 ▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to daveyp, 2, #675 of 1045 🔗

Given how bad the MSM were in March/April, I definitely think it’s turning, just too slowly. But we still haven’t reached the nadir of the economic fallout yet so just you wait.

And bear in mind that the MSM have a captive audience right now – everyone stuck at home with everything closed, no information as to when this hell will end, so people will turn on the news and watch. Of course all they’re talking about is Covid [cash register noise].

26764 ▶▶ Edna, replying to Poppy, 3, #676 of 1045 🔗

Exactly Poppy; I feel as though I am in a living nightmare.

26791 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Poppy, 3, #677 of 1045 🔗

… the BBC is starting to change its language – the economy didn’t shrink ‘due to the pandemic’, but ‘due to lockdown’. The MSM tide is clearly turni ng.

That’s music to my ears. It will make such a difference – but it’s going to have to do it quickly. So much damage done just by so few words.

26905 ▶▶▶ OKUK, replying to Cheezilla, 1, #678 of 1045 🔗

The only reason for this change will be that Boris created the lockdown – he didn’t create the pandemic. They want us to blame the “Tories”, even though Labour wanted an even stronger and earlier lockdown.

26822 ▶▶ Bella, replying to Poppy, 9, #679 of 1045 🔗

I think the most disturbing thing (and I refuse to be terrified by any of it) is that it now seems glaringly obvious that this is one big power grab. I’m not suggesting the virus was designed and released deliberately at a certain time – that would be too much for me to entertain conspiracy wise – but that this is opportunistic and they are using it to create more totalitarian societies across the globe. And particularly us. I was struck by Miriam’s discovery somewhere here that the WHO’s second biggest funder after Gates is the UK, which explains the WHO’s u-turn on masks. The mask thing is my biggest concern: it’s an overt sign of submission and I can see a time when those who refuse to wear one are treated as pariahs and eventually fined and then imprisoned. This despite the fact that they are more dangerous to your health than not wearing one. We need to keep on banging that message out there.

26906 ▶▶▶ OKUK, replying to Bella, 1, #680 of 1045 🔗

Political leaders are supreme opportunists. You don’t have to be a conspiracy theorists to see that it was in the interests of some leaders to support lockdown. Sturgeon for instance has used it to boost the Scottish independence cause, or at least has tried to do so.

26856 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Poppy, 2, #681 of 1045 🔗

What’s worse are all the comments under the news stories saying it’s nothing to worry about, it’s to be expected, the economy will recover etc.

It reminds me of the end scene in Some Like it Hot when Jack Lemon’s character Daphne reveals he’s a man who’s been pretending to be a woman. And Osgood who’s been wooing her simply shrugs it off “Well, nobody’s perfect”.

26736 CarrieAH, 10, #682 of 1045 🔗
26748 kh1485, replying to kh1485, 9, #683 of 1045 🔗

The cultural revolution continues: I just heard that a Fawlty Towers episode has been pulled from the BBC IPlayer … So glad I just pulled my TV licence.

26752 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to kh1485, 12, #684 of 1045 🔗

Is that the “Don’t mention the war!” episode? The country has gone stark staring bonkers.

26753 ▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to CarrieAH, 5, #685 of 1045 🔗

It is and yes, it is.

26757 ▶▶▶▶ Gillian, replying to Winston Smith, 2, #686 of 1045 🔗

You can get all episodes on Netflix….unless they pull them too.

26873 ▶▶▶▶▶ mjr, replying to Gillian, #687 of 1045 🔗

get a firestick, add downloader app,. then download cinema app… everything is there… and free. instructions on interweb.. i am finally doing Game of Thrones. surprised thats not been banned. !!!!

26767 ▶▶▶▶ mjr, replying to Winston Smith, 4, #688 of 1045 🔗

it is specifically because of the section where Major Gowan explains the different names for the West Indies cricketers and the Indian cricketers. and of course the Racism industry doesnt understand the nuances. What this is demonstrating is the prewar racist bigotted attitude of Major Gowan and his type, which it does very well. So the joke is Gowan. But that is ignored. It is like “Till death do us part”. Alf garnett and his attitudes was always the butt of the joke And in Love thy neighbour again it was the racist white man played by Jack Smedley who came off worse and was shown as ignorant. But this goes over the head of the BLM and BBC.
Note i have no excuses for “Mind your language” though

26799 ▶▶▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to mjr, 5, #689 of 1045 🔗

There is also an important scene in now banned, Gone with the Wind (near the end), when Scarlett gives the black butler her dead father’s treasured watch, telling him her father would have wanted him to have it. It signals something very profound. Perhaps the ‘woke’ virtue signallers of today can’t grasp that!

26833 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 2, #690 of 1045 🔗

I love Gone With The Wind

26871 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to CarrieAH, 1, #691 of 1045 🔗

Ditto. I have to confess to never having been a great reader of anything other than facts and factual texts – I am a scientist by background. However, me and my scientist husband had to assist elder son with his English A level (schools should do it, but that’s another story) so we had to do our own crash course in the basics of literary criticism and read various books. One of his course books was Streetcar Named Desire. I was struck by Elia Kazan’s casting of the ageing Vivien Leigh as the Southern Belle, having just watched Gone With the Wind. She was an extraordinary actress.

26793 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to kh1485, 1, #692 of 1045 🔗

Me too!!

26755 coalencanth12, 15, #693 of 1045 🔗

We were having some discussion yesterday in my institute about how to try and restart a science program. The latest madness, as part of ‘Level 3’ operations is we won’t be able to use wet laboratories for 72 hours after someone has been in there, and have apparently been banned from using strong bases/acids. We can’t operate like this. The health and safety Nazis are loving this, it’s the gift that keeps on giving. And we are two departments down from the minister, good grief. To think private companies are meant to earn a living in this environment?

26766 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 16, #694 of 1045 🔗

Coronavirus: Isle of Man to scrap social distancing ruleshttps://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-isle-of-man-53001567

Somebody must be first

26773 ▶▶ Julian, replying to swedenborg, 3, #695 of 1045 🔗

That’s the ticket! They probably don’t want (or deserve) a load of English refugees pitching up and pushing up property prices, but it’s a tempting thought – no language barrier for a start.

26821 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Julian, 1, #696 of 1045 🔗

Bear in mind that IoM are idiosyncratic, but that doesn’t mean they are necessarily any less insane than the rest of the British Isles, and in fact they have been far worse on this particular insanity:

Coronavirus Isle of Man: Man jailed for accepting a lift to the chemist’s

26795 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to swedenborg, 1, #697 of 1045 🔗

The island can operate in a sane manner – but they’re completely cut off from the rest of the world.

26771 kh1485, replying to kh1485, 11, #698 of 1045 🔗

Oh, I have just got to tell you about this. A bloke from Starbucks has just come into my humble little shop and asked if they could have some of my takeaway cup lids because they, Starbucks, have … run out! In exchange, and this is the bit that is really funny, we can have a free coffee in their shop! God, this has made my bloody day!

26785 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to kh1485, 1, #699 of 1045 🔗

You can probably set up an extension of your business at this rate.

26788 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Bart Simpson, 5, #700 of 1045 🔗

They didn’t want to pay for them, just a crappy coffee in exchange for several hundred lids! Cheeky bastards!

26794 ▶▶ annie, replying to kh1485, 4, #701 of 1045 🔗

I look fireard to the day you buy up their business. Or put the lid on it?

26840 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to annie, 1, #702 of 1045 🔗

If I did Annie, you’d get a coffee that actually tasted of … coffee!

26836 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to kh1485, 1, #703 of 1045 🔗

I would not have given him any! Why should you help Starbucks get customers? Find other small businesses and sell to them instead…

26852 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Carrie, #704 of 1045 🔗

I know, I didn’t. Looking at it the other way round, I wonder what their response would have been if I’d gone in there! He really wanted them free in exchange for one coffee!

26891 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to kh1485, 1, #705 of 1045 🔗

ha ha

26985 ▶▶ Keen Cook, replying to kh1485, #706 of 1045 🔗

Has China run out of plastic?

26777 Alec in France, replying to Alec in France, 14, #707 of 1045 🔗

Here in France, the Wuflu seems to be an endangered species – headline in yesterday’s La Depeche (regional paper) “Le coronavirus est-il sur le point de disparaître en France ?”
(Is the coronavirus about to disappear in France?)

As of yesterday there were less than 1000 people in intensive care nationally, continuing the steady decline over the month since “deconfinement” began.

Only 16 of the 20,000 tests in our region have been positive in the last week. How many of those were false positives, I wonder.

However, the fear propaganda has really hit home. Example: a runner friend, who was happy to stop for a fairly lengthy chat during lockdown exercise periods, not always at at an antisocial distance, passed us yesterday with a sort of ‘leper swerve’, at the same time raising her muzzle. Unnerving and leaves an unpleasant feeling.

Restaurants are mostly open, with the weird rule that muzzles must be worn while entering or moving about but can be removed while seated. Exactly what you do with the – ostensibly virus-infested – muzzle in between, and how you sanitise your hands after handling it, is not clear.

Face covering to save face?

26784 ▶▶ Bella, replying to Alec in France, 8, #708 of 1045 🔗

Meanwhile headlines at the BBC,desperate to keep the whole thing running: Coronavirus doctor’s diary: ‘People think it’s over, but it’s not’

26787 ▶▶ swedenborg, replying to Alec in France, 3, #709 of 1045 🔗

Quite important. Le Figaro was clear MSM and supporter of Macron and the lockdown. Perhaps they are changing now.
Now publishing from a new book by Prof Perronne. The title seems spot on(if I translate it correctly)
“Is there a mistake they have not done? The holy union between the incompetence and the arrogance”

26789 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Alec in France, 6, #710 of 1045 🔗
  • Restaurants are mostly open, with the weird rule that muzzles must be worn while entering or moving about but can be removed while seated. Exactly what you do with the – ostensibly virus-infested – muzzle in between, and how you sanitise your hands after handling it, is not clear.

That’s a rather bizarre rule isn’t it given that many doctors have said that’s one of the reasons why they not effective – constantly adjusting them means that the muzzle is inhibiting your breathing.

At this rate, I can see why a lot of restaurants and cafes have gone bust.

26806 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Bart Simpson, 11, #711 of 1045 🔗

I am wondering if I can ban customers who wear masks (for my own safety!). Had one in the other day – she took it off, and plonked it on the table. God knows how long she’d been wearing it, it was filthy!

26808 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to kh1485, 1, #712 of 1045 🔗

Don’t see why not. 🙂 Possible mention in the local press, with accompanying publicity ?

26813 ▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to kh1485, 10, #713 of 1045 🔗

Please, please do. They are unsanitary. I posted yesterday that I saw an interview where a doctor said you can breathe in your own viruses (we harbour about ten million of them) and activate them. So if it’s Sars-Cov-2 you’re in trouble. Perhaps a sign in your window saying they’re more dangerous than not wearing them. (Maybe not, you’d get lynched by the thought police.)

26820 ▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Bella, 5, #714 of 1045 🔗

I am considering putting something in the window … not sure what yet, perhaps the LS logo (if that’s allowed!). I think word is getting round of our lockdown-scepticism, which is encouraging!

26837 ▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to kh1485, 5, #715 of 1045 🔗

Maybe you should. Or a sign that says “Contrary to popular belief, wearing masks is hazardous to your health”

26798 ▶▶ matt, replying to Alec in France, 3, #716 of 1045 🔗

Was talking to a client/friend in Munich the other day. Same, utterly baffling rule around restaurants there too.

I wonder whether, when the reopen the pubs, you’ll have to put your mask back up in between every swig of beer.

26850 ▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to matt, #717 of 1045 🔗

Make a small hole big enough for a straw to suck through 😁 I’m joking of course. 😉

26864 ▶▶ Alec in France, replying to Alec in France, 3, #718 of 1045 🔗

Our town council is handing out free masks to the over 60’s, maybe to help the makers get rid of their embarrassing over-production.(French muzzle-wearers apparently prefer Chinese-made single-use (!) masks to the washable cloth ones made in France.)

Interesting photo in our local paper today – showing my 80-year-old neighbour (and local councillor) carefully observing antisocial distancing (not) as he poses to receive his free masks in the Mairie (council offices).

But nobody is muzzled. Hope the photographer was 😉

comment image ?v=1

26778 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 2, #719 of 1045 🔗


“The Springfield-Greene County Health Department is encouraged to report that the incubation period has passed from those potentially exposed from Great Clips. No clients of either stylist nor additional coworkers contracted COVID-19 as a result.
Two stylists had tested positive after working at the Great Clips at 1864 S. Glenstone Ave, potentially exposing 140 clients and six other coworkers. No additional clients or coworkers tested positive.
Testing was offered to all those potentially exposed, and 46 people pursued testing—all came back negative. Regardless of testing, all potentially exposed were quarantined for the duration of their exposure period.”
This is an impressive experiment in a way. The stylists worked with masks during illness and the hair salon was following other guidelines.
When are the hairsalons going to be opened in the UK?

26783 ▶▶ Margaret, replying to swedenborg, 11, #720 of 1045 🔗

My hairdresser phoned yesterday to say she was planning to open on July 4th. I was offered an appointment for July 9th which I accepted gratefully-my husband’s hair cutting skills are just not up to scratch! I have to take a carrier bag in which to put any coat or handbag and use hand sanitiser when going in (they were already doing this the week before lockdown) and whereas they will be wearing masks/visors, the wearing of masks by clients is optional otherwise I wouldn’t be going. She did tell me that quite a lot of clients had told her the same thing.

26801 ▶▶▶ Paul, replying to Margaret, 7, #721 of 1045 🔗

You have to use a carrier bag for your coat or handbag ?,well that’s a new one,another level of lunacy,but what about a carrier bag to put that carrier bag in etc,etc…

26842 ▶▶▶ Nic, replying to Margaret, #722 of 1045 🔗

How does she know this? Haven’t heard anything myself.

26875 ▶▶▶▶ Margaret, replying to Nic, 1, #723 of 1045 🔗

No idea. It’s been in the media quite a lot about hairdressers not being able to open until at least July 4th. I suppose she is ringing round her clients, trying to be pro-active and positive. It certainly made me feel better anyway!

26802 Lms23, replying to Lms23, 5, #724 of 1045 🔗

Tucker Carlson Tonight 11/6/20
Watch this (before it gets deleted) from 21 minutes in, regarding the CV19 outbreak in NYC, and in particular the hospitals there. Patients with and without CV19 were nursed together, and anyone who questioned it were sent home.
Note in particular the date of Cuomo’s edict about CV19 patients.

Infecting non-CV19 patients wasn’t a bug, it was a feature.

26846 ▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Lms23, #725 of 1045 🔗

Sounds like deliberate global manslaughter to me.

26943 ▶▶ Cbird, replying to Lms23, #726 of 1045 🔗

Already censored? “This video is private”

26804 LGDTLK, 17, #727 of 1045 🔗

Saw this elsewhere. In light of todays 20% GDP contraction thought it was pertinent.

If Prof. Ferguson was running an investment fund:

Invest 1 trillion pounds with Ferguson Asset Management and you would be left with £2.11

2002 For BSE the prediction was 50,000, reality 177. You are left with £3,540,000,000

2005 For Bird Flu his prediction was 200,000,000, reality 282. You are left with £4,991.40

2009 For Swine Flu his prediction was 65,000, reality 457. You are left with £35.09

2020 For Covid-19 his prediction was 510,000, reality 30,615. You are left with £2.11

26810 Bella, replying to Bella, 14, #728 of 1045 🔗

This week I decided to re-watch The Crown on Netflix. I get to Series One Ep 4, ‘Act of God’, and think I’m either on drugs or this is uncanny. It covers the health crisis that was the great smog of the 1950s and parallels abound as the Tory government can’t handle the crisis and run about like headless chickens, Churchill as PM being a useless bumbling idiot. And the opposition (Atlee) reluctant to challenge. In one sequence at an overwhelmed hospital a doctor yells (not verbatim) ‘Masks don’t work, it’s just the government trying to be seen to be doing something.’ Given that I have been banging on about masks in these pages for the last couple of days I was rather touched. A caption at the end reads that about 12,000 people died in the four days. So this poxy virus is chicken feed. (I’m being facetious before someone tries to chop my head off.)

26818 ▶▶ coalencanth12, replying to Bella, 5, #729 of 1045 🔗

That was a good episode and you’re right it shows how governments were clueless in dealing with public health incidents! I’m surprised this hasn’t been mentioned more in the media.

26838 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to Bella, 7, #730 of 1045 🔗

In order to escape the COVID terror for a bit, I watched a documentary at the weekend about Queen Mary and they referred to the flu pandemic of 1889-1892: the one that did for Prince Eddy. It killed over a million, but no mention of them shutting down the entire global economy for that!

26860 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to kh1485, 4, #731 of 1045 🔗

That was the Russian Flu and its now widely accepted that’s the reason why a huge number of old and middle aged people survived the Spanish flu as they’ve developed an immunity when they were younger to that strain.

26811 Steve Hayes, replying to Steve Hayes, 12, #732 of 1045 🔗

Toby, in the Round Up section, you refer to an article in RT and add the rider – RT so treat with caution. Do you really think that RT is any more unreliable than say the BBC, the NYT, Der Spiegel, etc?

27022 ▶▶ SodTheLockdown, replying to Steve Hayes, #733 of 1045 🔗

What he thinks is irrelevant. The warning is there because if you try to cite an RT article in an argument, or forward one to someone, the source will make most people think “kremlin disinformation” regardless of what the story is. If we want our case beleived we typically don’t use RT to back it up.

27025 ▶▶ SodTheLockdown, replying to Steve Hayes, #734 of 1045 🔗

If RT said “the sun will rise tomorrow”, most people would think that Putin has a missile which coud not only reach the sun from earth easily* but dump something into the stellar core to cease the fusion reaction.

*Quicker and with more payload than ESA’s solar orbiter or NASA’s Parker probe

26812 Nobody2020, replying to Nobody2020, 7, #735 of 1045 🔗

Interesting read:

“Would You Stand up to an Oppressive Regime or Would You Conform? Here’s the Science”

“the atrocities of the Holocaust were made possible by normal people, manipulated into conforming to a horribly abnormal set of behavioural norms”

“it may be that those who have the most to lose and/or are keen to climb the social ladder are particularly likely to conform”

“What drives forward fights against an oppressive society is a rival vision – a vision of equality, liberty and justice, and a sense that these should be defended, whatever the consequence”

26824 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Nobody2020, 3, #736 of 1045 🔗

“What drives forward fights against an oppressive society is a rival vision – a vision of equality, liberty and justice, and a sense that these should be defended, whatever the consequence”

Well, in our case, the ‘nice people’ all want a more authoritarian government, and for different ‘identities’ to be favoured or maligned based on nothing more than skin colour or sex.

And anyone who genuinely might fight for equality, liberty and justice is painted as more-or-less a n*zi. Is it possible to fight for those good things if even educated, virtuous, responsible people think they’re fascistic?

26825 Sarigan, replying to Sarigan, 8, #737 of 1045 🔗

Most Brits want to keep 2m social distance rule

58% of 3672 adults surveyed? How is that most Brits?

They ask daily questions and I suggest we start voting to get some real opinions there. Today’s is “DO YOU AGREE WITH THE IDEA OF ‘SUPPORT BUBBLES”?


26826 ▶▶ Sarigan, replying to Sarigan, #738 of 1045 🔗

Ooooo, it then lets you answer previous questions – this is going to be fun!

26827 ▶▶▶ Sarigan, replying to Sarigan, #739 of 1045 🔗

If you refresh the screen you get a whole new batch too.

26847 ▶▶ Bella, replying to Sarigan, 5, #740 of 1045 🔗

Those who want to keep 2m may do so, leave the rest of us to get on with it

26889 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Sarigan, 2, #741 of 1045 🔗

They must have asked another OR question: ‘do you want to keep the 2m distance rule or do you want to see people die?’

26890 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Sarigan, 1, #742 of 1045 🔗

Thanks for the link. I wondered who these people are who get asked and come up with weird opinions that no way reflect mine.

A telling one is: How concerned are you about your personal finances over the next 12 months?
Scarily, the majority have voted Not very concerned.

These are no doubt the ones who want to perpetuate lockdown indefinitely. They’ll maybe wake up when there’s no salad or tenderstem in Waitrose. Let’s hope they don’t wait till there’s no electricity.

26909 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Cheezilla, 2, #743 of 1045 🔗

Having said that, I saw the bubbles question. There is no nuance. The one that invites you to say yes because you want to go and see your family also makes you accept the bubbles in the first place. You are really left only with the Don’t know box to tick.
Double edged sword. Sneaky stuff – as surveys usually are.

27076 ▶▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to Cheezilla, #744 of 1045 🔗

Exactly – of course I support the measure because I’ve gone 3 months without seeing my boyfriend, but I also don’t support the measure because I don’t support the lockdown full stop and just want a normal, unrestricted life…!

26907 ▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Sarigan, 2, #745 of 1045 🔗

Just gone to the site. It asks you if you want to stay and answer more question – going to have fun with this!

27006 ▶▶▶ OpenYourEyes, replying to Awkward Git, 1, #746 of 1045 🔗

These surverys are a complete waste of time as they only survey people inside, online. A survey conducted in the high street with a clipboard and pen of an audience who are happy to talk to strangers (at 2m apart for the sake to avoid overcorrection) would produce a different result

26832 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 6, #747 of 1045 🔗

I am not sure whether posted before but indeed shocking.
March-17th to April 15th
“25000 persons were discharged from hospitals to care homes. It is not known how many had Covid-19.”
This is from national audit office UK.
Why was it not known? Covid-19 test existed at that time. Is it known but suppressed information?
Probably most likely incompetence and not tested at all and in a panic to save the NHS killing our care homes instead.

Haven’t checked the original information nao but doubt that this report is incorrect.

26845 ▶▶ Rosie, replying to swedenborg, 1, #748 of 1045 🔗

Page down through this report from the American Institute for Economic Research and discover that the lockdown and ‘social distancing’ have their origin in a plan by 3 people from 2006. The plan was opposed by the medical profession and others but got accepted anyway has US policy. The Institute is still trying to find out how that happened.
So there has been plenty of time to plan the details. Given that transferring sick patients into care homes is so obviously wrong, and that many care homes tried to prevent it, this points to it being a deliberate policy.

26843 Bart Simpson, replying to Bart Simpson, 16, #750 of 1045 🔗

This was recommended by someone on Twitter. I think Littlejohn is spot on:


Especially this:

Most schools remain closed because the teaching unions refuse to return to work, for purely political not safety reasons.

Education is the proven way to get young people out of the ghetto and into the professions.

But it is kids in the Labour-controlled inner cities who are hardest hit by the continuing closure of schools. Clearly black lives don’t matter at all to the hard-Left leaders of the National Education Union.

and this:

Teenage Chancellor Rishi Sunak basks in widespread praise, even on the Left, after discovering there is a magic money tree after all. Half the country is enjoying an extended, all-expenses-paid summer holiday on the taxpayers’ tab.

Giving cash away is the easy bit. Let’s see how popular Dishy Rishi is once he has to stop everyone’s pocket money in October. By then idleness will have become a way of life. Millions won’t have a job to go back to.

Someone should really throw cold water on this lot. It’s appalling how people are sleepwalking into economic and political Armageddon.

26874 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Bart Simpson, #751 of 1045 🔗

Home Secretary Pritti Flamingo …


26899 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to JohnB, #752 of 1045 🔗

Ah yes, the Priti Useless one.

26973 ▶▶ Biker, replying to Bart Simpson, #753 of 1045 🔗

you could take these black kids out the ghetto waste a fortune on them in private schools and most of them will still be thick as fuck. Tired of people defending these type of people. Work and look out for yourself and stop blaming others because you’re to thick to do anything more than steal trainers, take drugs and say init bruth. No one owes you jack shit in this life, something a lot of people seem to have forgotten

27003 ▶▶▶ SodTheLockdown, replying to Biker, #754 of 1045 🔗

Get them interested in science and to a half-decent FE college then a decent uni and they’ll stop using that foul word “init”, (or use it only as short for initialisation if they end up on a computing course). Doesn’t need to cost a fortune if we sack all the managers involved in adding piels of paperwork to both education and later employment. We need to recognise that people can be brought out of the ghetto with a bit of a push and some hard work, and that lockdown is trapping them there. Undoubtedly some people will want a whole life of drugs, theft and “innit”, but if we keep everyone locked down we want be able to save those who don’t want that.

26848 Nobody2020, replying to Nobody2020, 3, #755 of 1045 🔗

More studies on T-cell immunity. This one from Singapore. Just one of many that seem to be coming out now supporting the idea.


27042 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Nobody2020, #756 of 1045 🔗

Even Stephen Powis just mentioned other forms of possible immunity in today’s briefing.

26849 John P, replying to John P, 10, #757 of 1045 🔗

Good morning Hell. I am now becoming convinced that I have died without my knowledge and I have been inducted into Hades for some undeclared crime. The Toby Young of Lockdown Skeptics is a hologram, the real Toby Young is still living in the United Kingdom on planet Earth which is going through a painful transition from EU membership to independence. All is going to plan, though there are concerns about the effect that leaving the EU will have on the economy, and Jolyon Maugham-Fox is still abusing wild animals. John Pretty, RIP.

As I woke this morning I was surprised to feel fear coursing through my arteries. Despite my feeling I still seemed to be in a good humour. How strange, I thought. My only drug is Lockdown Skeptics and the caffeine in my tea, but I was reminded that morphine apparently works not by eliminating pain, but by somehow fooling the brain into not being distressed in any way by pain.

Anyway, well, I’m not in any physical pain.

I may be awoken, but I am still not woke – or so it would seem. On a semi-serious note I have been thinking of the nature of being offended. I had an exchange with another skeptic here a couple of weeks ago and politely asked the person to “leave me alone”. I couldn’t handle it. I was wounded by a suggestion that I might be fond of bitter. Well, generally I preferred lager, but these days it’s strictly tea. I don’t drink. “#tea man”

I don’t know if I was inherently sensitive or whether it’s more that I didn’t have the mental tools to deal with “offenders”. I can recall the painful memory of being called “baldie” by a giggling teenage girl on a bus when I was in my twenties. As far as I was concerned this was a reminder that I was deeply unattractive. I felt exposed and embarrassed. I am still single.

I do believe in free speech, but there are difficulties with it. We maybe need as a society (if we have any such a beast left) to acknowledge some of these difficulties.

I don’t believe in “safe” spaces – I don’t want to be protected. I am challenged on how to deal with feeling offended. But I needed first to understand that I could deal with it. It is no accident that those who desire the comfort of safe spaces these days are often barely adults. They just don’t realise that there is another way.

26925 ▶▶ Bella, replying to John P, 1, #758 of 1045 🔗

There’s no problem with free speech if it is laced with kindness but, so far, there doesn’t seem to be an epidemic of kindness. Got the vaccine for that.

26998 ▶▶ SodTheLockdown, replying to John P, 1, #759 of 1045 🔗

“My only drug is Lockdown Skeptics…” Describe it like that an maybe the left-wing hippies will want to take some of our views, at last!

26851 swedenborg, 1, #760 of 1045 🔗

From Lockdown San Francisco .Drastic way of getting rid of the homeless without the scrutiny of MSM from a PC type of city administration?
Total death Covid-19: 42
Over 300 people overdosed in SF IN 2019. We are in pace to double that this year. Covid-19 is not even close to the health risk that drug overdoses are in this city.

26854 Tony Rattray, replying to Tony Rattray, 30, #761 of 1045 🔗

Big move of position from the Republic of Ireland

The Republic of Ireland will not enter full lockdown again even if there is a second wave of the virus, the country’s chief medical officer says – despite EU health experts warning that further lockdowns could be needed.

Dr Tony Holohan says that as the country knows more about Covid-19 than it did in March, when restrictions were first introduced, it will be able to take a different course.

“I wouldn’t be anticipating at this point in time that we would move back to blanket closures in the way we did in March,” he told Irish state broadcaster RTE.

“People understand more about the disease, the risks and how they can protect themselves when it comes to hand hygiene and respiratory etiquette.

“If a resurgence of the disease happened or a second wave, we would know what specific measures to take, having done our work proactively.”

All together now – Sweden!!!

26855 ▶▶ Poppy, replying to Tony Rattray, 13, #762 of 1045 🔗

Good news – slowly but surely. Another crack in the dam.

26859 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Poppy, 10, #763 of 1045 🔗

Yes, the Americans and the French have said this too.

26862 ▶▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to Julian, 14, #764 of 1045 🔗

Our government is so invertebrate that I wouldn’t be surprised if they even refused to reassure the public that there won’t be another lockdown, because that would be an admission that they failed spectacularly with the first one.

26861 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Tony Rattray, 7, #765 of 1045 🔗

Everyone knows the cost of lockdown isn’t worth it. There are better options, they just won’t come out and say it directly.

26872 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Nobody2020, 11, #766 of 1045 🔗

Sadly, I think lockdowns are an excellent option if one is implementing a tyrannical new form of government. Hence the regularly changing rationale/focuses, disregard for the economy and education system, several bizarre laws and projects, and total MSM complicity.

26992 ▶▶▶▶ SodTheLockdown, replying to JohnB, #767 of 1045 🔗

And now the unelected government wants laws to get “violent” protesters “tried” and jailed in under 24 hours, we can imagine that “violence” will mean any cause the government disapproves of.

26923 ▶▶ Bella, replying to Tony Rattray, 1, #768 of 1045 🔗

These EU ‘health experts’ are something else since they seem to have no idea of the effects of lockdown on health. Maybe some of these ‘experts’ should stand up to be counted

26867 Bart Simpson, replying to Bart Simpson, 15, #769 of 1045 🔗

Found this on twitter, kh1485, you might want this for your cafe:

26870 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to Bart Simpson, 1, #770 of 1045 🔗

Thanks Bart, very much appreciated.

26878 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to kh1485, 2, #771 of 1045 🔗
26879 ▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Bart Simpson, 1, #772 of 1045 🔗


26888 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Bart Simpson, 1, #773 of 1045 🔗

That’s brilliant, thanks.

26892 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Bart Simpson, 1, #774 of 1045 🔗

Great! will definitely use this

26901 ▶▶ OKUK, replying to Bart Simpson, 5, #775 of 1045 🔗


I’ve noticed that the people who wear masks (whom I always give a very wide berth) can often be seen fiddling with the mask around their nose and face. Touching your nose and face is a classic way of spreading or acquiring infections. It’s the wearing of the mask which encourages this frequent finger-face contact.

27046 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to OKUK, 1, #776 of 1045 🔗

Saw that a lot today. And this woman whose breathing was so harsh that her mask was becoming wet with her own saliva.

27058 ▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Bart Simpson, 1, #777 of 1045 🔗

We have a lady who comes into our shop and she has, what to call it, learning difficulties. Poor thing, I reckon she had soaked her mask with TCP, the smell was so overpowering. I can’t begin to imagine how that is impacting her health.

27103 ▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to kh1485, 1, #778 of 1045 🔗

That’s very bad. That’s why this muzzle wearing should be dropped.

27040 ▶▶ Paul, replying to Bart Simpson, 3, #779 of 1045 🔗

Nice one Bart,I could have done with that a couple of hours ago at Aldi,the idiots in their masks were really getting my back up,I especially like the ones that were driving with them on !.I think I might print a few copies of this and put them in the trolleys and baskets at Aldi next time I go.

27043 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Bart Simpson, 2, #780 of 1045 🔗

You know the Masketeers will simply call people selfish for only thinking of themselves upon seeing this.

27045 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Nobody2020, 2, #781 of 1045 🔗

Someone I know keeps posting those “I wear a mask because I care for your health”, it was so bad that I had to unfollow her.

26869 Bella Donna, replying to Bella Donna, 12, #782 of 1045 🔗

Another study from last month meanwhile has found evidence up to 60% of people may be partially resistant to SARS-COV-2 without ever being exposed to it.

Importantly, we detected SARS-CoV-2-reactive CD4+ T cells in ∼40%–60% of unexposed individuals, suggesting cross-reactive T cell recognition between circulating “common cold” coronaviruses and SARS-CoV-2.

In other words, large numbers of people may be immune or resistant to this virus because they have already been infected by other coronaviruses.

This may not be surprising, given the close relationship between most coronaviruses, but it is a further indicator that this virus, known to be harmless in the vast majority of cases, is neither especially unique nor especially dangerous.

The evidence continues to mount that the original estimates of the danger posed by this virus were massively exaggerated.

Massively exaggerated? You dont say! It’s pointless showing this to my MP I’m done communicating with her as she is very much 🙈 🙉 🙊

26886 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Bella Donna, #783 of 1045 🔗

Hey, I’d like to be paid 7 times my measly state pension to sit around doing 🙈 🙉 🙊

26876 Nobody2020, replying to Nobody2020, 8, #784 of 1045 🔗

I knew it. Flattening the curve wasn’t enough. The plan is complete suppression/eradiction of the virus just because it’s been done in other countries.

26882 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Nobody2020, 13, #785 of 1045 🔗

Yes, I’d noticed that recently the goal seems to be complete eradication. I suspect the economy will be long gone before thay achieve that.
I’d like to say they are idiots but I fear it’s more sinister than that. They certainly come up with ever more far-fetched reasons to maintain antisocial-distancing.

26893 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Cheezilla, 3, #786 of 1045 🔗

I think in Scotland it may be a pretext to force some issues regarding Independence.

What happens if it’s eradicated in Scotland but not England and it’s decided we need to isolate like New Zealand? Close the Scotland/England border? If that’s not allowed then is it a case for Independence?

Devi Sridhar tweeted:

“Elimination is a journey, not a fixed point in time, but progress towards this goal will allow restrictions to be eased safely & elderly/vulnerable groups to feel cared for & valued”

So unless it’s eradicated there can be no easing of restrictions. If it’s not eradicated in England as well then it will be their fault we can’t ease restrictions in Scotland. Another case for independence?

26903 ▶▶ Poppy, replying to Nobody2020, 12, #787 of 1045 🔗

She doesn’t give a s**t about the health or wellbeing of the Scottish people. She just wants to see news reports about herself, like those about Jacinda Arden, looking smug and doing her ‘little happy dance’ because she’s eradicated the virus in Scotland. It’s all about her.

While also eradicating the economy and the life prospects of millions.

26921 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to Poppy, 4, #788 of 1045 🔗

It’s actively in her interests to damage the Scottish economy to the greatest extent possible. The devolved government does not have responsibility for the economy (nor for paying for furlough in Scotland) and so can be blamed on Westminster, making it easier to point the finger and say “all our problems are their fault” when pushing for another independence referendum.

27005 ▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to matt, #789 of 1045 🔗

Can England have one too?

26962 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Nobody2020, 1, #790 of 1045 🔗

She is out of her tiny mind.

27029 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to CarrieAH, 1, #791 of 1045 🔗

She knows exactly what she’s doing She’s a shill.

27102 ▶▶ EmbraFlaneur, replying to Nobody2020, 3, #792 of 1045 🔗

This morning I thought I detected some light at the end of the tunnel. One of my favourite coffee shops reopened a week ago and, while I was waiting for my takeaway long black, the owner and I discussed the chances of ditching the two metre nonsense and getting back to the old normal.

Then I got home and all my hopes were dashed because those medical experts Nicola “The Surgeon” Sturgeon and “Jawbreaker” Jason Leitch have a plan and the plan cannot be deviated from. It doesn’t matter that Scotland has fewer than 600 confirmed cases in hospital. It doesn’t matter that (a fortnight after the scenes on Portobello beach that made the FM feel like crying) Scotland has had only 127 positive tests in the last seven days (down 50% from a week ago). It doesn’t matter that of the approximately 1000-1100 people who have died in Scotland this week only 33 of them had tested positive for covid we have to stick to the plan because we’re only a sneeze away from the apocalypse.

26880 Nic, replying to Nic, 16, #793 of 1045 🔗

Just looking at the long range weather forecast and it’s pretty crap, rain ,rain and more rain cant see many pubs bothering to open then.
And I think the mood of the people will get steadily worse now the days of endless sunshine are fast disappearing.
It’s going to be a long hard road ahead can see many people really suffering with their mental health a d suicides increasing

We must break this lock down soon and try to get back to normal.

26883 ▶▶ Anthony, replying to Nic, 7, #794 of 1045 🔗

Hopefully with the use of marquees etc pubs will be able to use their imagine as to what constitutes to being outside.

27027 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Anthony, 2, #795 of 1045 🔗

More expense though.

26884 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Nic, 6, #796 of 1045 🔗

I’d wondered what effect the weather would have. If Boris doesn’t grow a pair pronto and make some sensible and useful (to the people!!) decisions, things could get very ugly.

26885 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Nic, 9, #797 of 1045 🔗

And those who thought it is a bad idea to fly will suddenly change their minds and want quarantine reversed so that they can head off to sunnier climates after all 😉

26887 ▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Nic, 12, #798 of 1045 🔗

Yes, we have to, but so many people have bought into the death cult, complicit in the suicide of the nation.

Reasoned argument doesn’t work when the hysteria is so deep.

26966 ▶▶▶ Sarigan, replying to Winston Smith, 1, #799 of 1045 🔗

At least you will only be going on holiday with people who don’t give a crap about Covid

26894 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Nic, 9, #800 of 1045 🔗

The crap weather would render antisocial distancing and face masks useless.

I think there will be an increase in low level violence as frustrated communters and customers take it out on transport and retail staff as they are forced to queue and wait in the pouring rain or howling wind.

26895 Major Panic, replying to Major Panic, 5, #801 of 1045 🔗

P45-2020 Virus Epidemic

The P45-2020 virus is incredibly complex, to thrive it requires a number of other Viruses to align – to do ‘the right thing at the right time’

P45-2020 sneaks in hidden in the shadow of an extremely overestimated virus, in this case Covid-19. Covid-19 is a nasty cold that, like the Flu can be deadly to extremely ill people but, is only a tiny danger to the, little understood but incredible, human immune systems of the healthy population.

For Covid-19 to be useful to P45-2020 it needs to be blown out of all proportion by a number of other viruses – to create an irrational hysterical herd insanity amongst the healthy population.

The virus chain….

Firstly, the Brainwash the Masses Virus uses national media outlets (that once reported non-bias news with the help of investigative journalism) that produce selective sensationalist drama very loosely based on fact, they call this ‘news’ and include drama outlets like BBC ‘news’, Sky ‘news’, ‘etc’. These ‘news’ outlets ‘report’ Covid-19 in a selective sensationalist way to keep viewers watching. An unintended consequence is to creates an atmosphere of irrational hysterical fear amongst the healthy population. A massive red pulsating, horror provoking, invisible killer image of a Covid-19 Virus (actual size 0.0001mm diameter) is employed for the brainwashing.

(Initially the population political ‘leadership’ follow the time tested and natural herd immunity treatment where the vulnerable in the population are screened while the healthy population acquire herd immunity. Once the healthy have achieved herd immunity then the vulnerable are protected as the disease can no longer spread….)

Secondly, the Academic Modelling Incompetence (AMI) Virus produces ‘BS Science’ –  future predictors who once read; crystal balls, cloud formations, goats entrails, etc are used to incorrectly predict the future, modern computer based complex modelling is used as the traditional nonsense was deemed out dated and less believable by the generally gullible. The carriers of the AMI Virus have embedded themselves in once excellent institutions of learning like Imperial College London, taking on the form of Intelligent Professors, and destroying these places from within. Unfortunately, though these institutions are now disfunctional they still keep their completely undeserved credibility.

Thirdly, the Gutless – Focus Group Lead- Leadership (GF-GL-L) Virus (the title is mis-leading as it requires the population ‘leaders’ to definitely not posses any form of leadership qualities what so ever – in this case a bumbling buffoon columnist and a bag carrier, with other various cling-ons and being advised by a goblin). Under pressure from; a) the mass hysterical cries from the petrified population of ‘something must be done’, b) threats from the leader of France, c) ‘the science’ – a theoretical production of gibberish and nonsense claiming we are all going to die (AMI Virus) – Lead the population’s ‘leaders’ into PANIC and to lockdown the country for no good scientific reason, and with no thought of the deadly unintended consequences. It is important for the G-FGL-L Virus infection in the ‘leadership’ not to be effected by any evidence based real science – which, in this case has been incredibly successful as, for political face-saving and certainly not a shred of real scientific evidence reasons, the lockdown stays in place as the Covid-19 ‘nasty cold’ disappears of its own design (possibly through herd immunity).

It is at this point – as an ICL ‘Professor’ might say – the stars have aligned – for the host economy to collapse and the P45-2020 Virus to reek deadly havoc through the once healthy population, leaving no one to look after the few remaining vulnerable (due to inadequate/non-existent shielding).

There have been theories that the Covid19 Virus was developed in a Chinese laboratory, but these were discredited as the covid19 turned out to be a rubbish bio-weapon as it only effected the frail old and the extremely ill.

Crazy though…The P45-2020 Virus is surely far too complex to have been developed by communist minds, possibly disguised by scientists and professors


Later, it was decided by the survivors of the self-inflicted economic holocaust, that a  referendum should take place with one simple question;

Should the UK state become; a) communist or b) fascist

Anyways – good luck all….

note – P45 is a bit of paper your emplyer will give you when you are told you are no longer needed

27004 ▶▶ annie, replying to Major Panic, #802 of 1045 🔗

Yes, can we give out a few to deserving cases?

26897 OKUK, replying to OKUK, 14, #803 of 1045 🔗

Aren’t our media wonderful? They argue hysterically for a total and immediate lockdown…now they are whingeing about the economic effects… “Ooh we didn’t know it was going to be that bad.” . It’s sickening hearing people on the BBC discuss the fallout knowing how cushioned they are from its repercussions.

Meanwhile apparently there are going to be “Far Right” demonstrators in London this weekend…you might have noticed there have been no “Far Left” demonstrators to be seen anywhere in London in recent weeks, otherwise I am sure BBC, Sky and ITV would have alerted us.

I try and avoid Radio 4 as much as possible now but I had it on this morning…there was an earnest discussion about whether banning Fawlty Towers showed things were going too far…not that there was ever any doubt about what the discussion would conclude.

Justin Webb was doing that irritating thing of laughing in jocular fashion about what is/was probably the most important thing in our society: free speech. And who were the two guests they had on? Well ,the impeccably PC duo Ash Sarkar (Far Left Remainiac) and Matthew Parris (Left-Liberal Remainiac) were on hand with a combination of deceptive and limp-rag commentary. Matthew was pleased to agree so much with Ash…Of course, Sarkar wants to destroy free speech and Rhodesian Parris, a direct beneficiary of colonial exploitation in Africa, is the last person you’d have on to mount an effective defence against the Puritan Left’s assault on our “collonial” (as they spell it) past.

26917 ▶▶ John P, replying to OKUK, 9, #804 of 1045 🔗

I would suggest that making this about Remain v Brexit is not especially clever.

I voted Remain.

I have changed my view on that in more recent times, but in any event it’s not really relevant to this debate and I think it’s unhelpful to risk alienating remain voting lockdown skeptics.

Part of being a grown up is accepting that there are others who do not agree with us.

26922 ▶▶ Mark, replying to OKUK, 5, #805 of 1045 🔗

So having positively encouraged far left/anarchist, antiracist cultural revolutionaries to demonstrate, the mainstream media will now proceed to demonise as supposed aggressors any “far right” demonstrators who attempt to respond.

And most likely any resistance demonstrators will be met by aggressively violent “counter-demonstrators”, or by harsh police control measures pretty much absent from the policing of the BLM mobs, which will then allow the resistance to be painted yet again as thuggish aggressors.

It’s an old play that has been ongoing in this country for decades, since demonisation of “racism” was first introduced as a means to suppress opposition to mass immigration.

26955 ▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to Mark, 2, #806 of 1045 🔗

They are neither anarchist or antiracist. They are far left statist and racist cultural revolutionaries.

Anarchism is to be without a ruler which is the opposite of an all powerful state able to decide what you can say and should think and feel, what films and TV programs are permissible. They wish to increase the power of the state not eliminate it.

27007 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Saved To Death, 1, #807 of 1045 🔗

Ok, you make a fair point on the terminology, but this area is a minefield of contradiction and misleading propaganda. BLM are marxist left anarchists and antiracists, which are both terms that are used to cover for the fact that they seek to enact their opposites. Marxist and other left anarchists claim to be against authority structures whilst being fundamentally authoritarian extremists, while antiracists claim to be against racism whilst actually pursuing anti-white race hatred.

The idea is to recruit the maximum possible number of useful idiots as supporters and collaborators.

27064 ▶▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Mark, #808 of 1045 🔗

Marxists are anarchists? Try that one in Barcelona!

27094 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, #809 of 1045 🔗

Functionally yes. And I’m not just talking about doctrinal bollocks about withering away of the state, I’m talking about “smash the system” practice.

As with antiracists it’s not necessarily about what they say or think they represent, but what they actually do and actually represent.

27297 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to Mark, #810 of 1045 🔗

Most anarchists in real life don’t want to ‘smash the system’ they want to move on a voluntary basis towards a system where the state has less and less power and becomes more decentralised.

The ‘smash the system’ anarchists tend to be more ‘deep state’ for want of a better word – sponsored groups intended to discredit the notion and create chaos during peaceful protests that certain actors don’t like.

Take the definition given by google even of anarchism

“belief in the abolition of all government and the organization of society on a voluntary, cooperative basis without recourse to force or compulsion.”

Violent means and smashing the system would be the opposite to ‘voluntary, cooperative basis without recourse to force or compulsion’ and is not what anarchism is about.

You are viewing this idea through the MSM lens.

26900 Nobody2020, replying to Nobody2020, 10, #811 of 1045 🔗

Devi Sridhar in The Guardian:


“The successes of New Zealand and Australia might force other countries to rethink their own strategies, and the feasibility of eliminating the virus within their borders. Instead of living with a constant threat of Covid-19, people might start asking their own governments – why not try to get rid of it altogether?”

The question I would ask is why this particular virus for eradication?

26902 ▶▶ Poppy, replying to Nobody2020, 15, #812 of 1045 🔗

‘Why not try to get rid of it altogether?’

Maybe because doing that in a country like the UK, where the virus is already widespread, involves absolutely flattening the economy and normal way of life for pretty much everyone.

Oh wait, we’ve already tried that, and we’ve ended up with the worst of all worlds.

26916 ▶▶▶ John P, replying to Poppy, 11, #813 of 1045 🔗

‘Why not try to get rid of it altogether?’

This is probably impossible anyway, especially given that we are dealing with something so small that it is completely invisible to our senses. And what would be the point? As those of us come here well know, it’s not especially dangerous!

27002 ▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to John P, #814 of 1045 🔗

And why not abolish death while we’re about it?

26949 ▶▶▶ Nic, replying to Poppy, 2, #815 of 1045 🔗

Not possible when we are having 1k plus illegals coming across the channel every week,it only takes 1 of them to be positive and you are back to square 1

26912 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Nobody2020, 7, #816 of 1045 🔗

Instead of living with a constant threat of Covid-19, people might start asking their own governments – why not try to get rid of it altogether?”
Like they did with influenza and the common cold?
Devi Sridhar is a snake anyway.

26927 ▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Cheezilla, 5, #817 of 1045 🔗

Big mates with Chelsea Clinton, heavy involvement with WHO, World Economic Forum, according to Wiki. Full professor at the age of 30. Um!

27024 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Tyneside Tigress, #818 of 1045 🔗

I didn’t know her background but the way she talks is a dead giveaway.

27101 ▶▶▶▶ Keen Cook, replying to Tyneside Tigress, #819 of 1045 🔗

Very interesting that.

26983 ▶▶ SodTheLockdown, replying to Nobody2020, #820 of 1045 🔗

If we want to try wiping out a virus how about putting measles on our hit list? An easy target as we’ve a vaccine for it. And worse than covid-19 as it can cause serious complications in the young and middle aged, not almost solely in the elderly.

26984 ▶▶ guy153, replying to Nobody2020, 4, #821 of 1045 🔗

It’s an interesting thought experiment, although not one that it would ethical (or remotely practical) to attempt in the real world. If you did eradicate Covid-19 worldwide through lockdowns that would have the side-effect of eradicating all other human respiratory viruses (colds, flus, etc.). After lifting the lockdown we would reacquire many of them (including SARS-CoV2) from our pets. The adult population would probably be OK but it’s unknown what harm this would cause to the current generation of children, who would suddenly be encountering all of these viruses at once and with much less partial immunity.

It would also be interesting to see how the ecosystem of viruses was affected. With children having no immune memory it’s likely a set of different strains of viruses would become established. The new ones that actually killed children would die out relatively soon (along with their hosts), so perhaps after a thousand years or so we might be back to about where we are today– sharing our world with a few dozen “common colds”.

27001 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to guy153, 1, #822 of 1045 🔗


Unless you propose a permanent change in our culture to one basically modelled on the behaviour of the formerly tiny minority of hygiene-obsessive “germophobes”, assisted by huge material investment and technological developments directed appropriately on a sustained basis.

It would be far less efficient, and very unnatural and probably disturbing to those living in it, but I wouldn’t go so far as to say it would be impossible to create such a society.

27033 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to guy153, 3, #823 of 1045 🔗

If we were to go down that path, essentially bubbling ourselves away from nature then we would never be able to come out of our bubbles for fear of nature itself killing us. Diversity gives any species the best chance of survival by not allowing any single entity to wipe it out.

27050 ▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Nobody2020, #824 of 1045 🔗

Much of the human genome actually came from viruses in the first place.


Behind a paywall, but here is a quote:

‘At least 8 per cent of the human genome consists of clearly-identifiable ERVs. [endogenous retroviruses] Another 40 to 50 per cent looks suspiciously ERV-like, and much of the rest consists of DNA elements that multiply and spread in virus-like ways. Taken together, virus-like genes represent a staggering 90 per cent of the human genome. […]. “There is this continuous raining of viral genes into cellular genomes,” says [Patrick] Forterre [Paris-Sud University in Orsay, France].’

Basically we co-evolve with viruses and that’s all part of how life works and got here in the first place. Although we can manage without SARS2 isolating ourselves from the entire virosphere is probably most unwise.

27081 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Nobody2020, #825 of 1045 🔗

Because we can’t eradicate the common cold, you dolt.

26908 RDawg, replying to RDawg, 6, #826 of 1045 🔗

It gets worse! Now Uber is at it.

26910 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to RDawg, 3, #827 of 1045 🔗

No custom!
Having said that, I did see a local taxi driver in a mask the other day. High Asian/Arab population here though.

26911 ▶▶ IanE, replying to RDawg, 10, #828 of 1045 🔗

No ride, no Money!

26914 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to IanE, 4, #829 of 1045 🔗

No money, no honey!

Wait what are we talking about again?

26918 ▶▶▶▶ RDawg, replying to Nobody2020, #830 of 1045 🔗

😂 😂 😂
I know so many of those toilet attendant phrases!

26957 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to RDawg, 8, #831 of 1045 🔗

No custom from me then. Simples.

26994 ▶▶ Bella, replying to RDawg, 5, #832 of 1045 🔗

Then they can eff off too

27010 ▶▶ Gossamer, replying to RDawg, 7, #833 of 1045 🔗

Because of course driving is so safe when you’re deprived of oxygen.

27017 ▶▶ Jonathan Palmer, replying to RDawg, 1, #834 of 1045 🔗

It’s not Uber.TFL has mandated the wearing of masks for all taxi and private hire drivers and it is up to the drivers discretion if they choose to pick up an unmasked passenger.

27052 ▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Jonathan Palmer, 2, #835 of 1045 🔗

It is Uber if they say ‘if you’re not wearing a face covering the driver has a right to cancel your ride.’

26915 John P, replying to John P, 16, #836 of 1045 🔗

Serious point.

Although I have no children myself, I do have a nine year old niece. My sister told me last month that she preferred her daughter to go back to school in September.

This was not because of any safety concerns, but because she was of the opinion that the “social distancing” would be dropped by that time, and my niece would not have to be put through it.

26920 ▶▶ ambwozere, replying to John P, 4, #837 of 1045 🔗

I would love to hope this is true though the FE college I work in is preparing for the new academic year with social distancing still in place. A lot of the managers are of the opinion it’s here for the long term.

Obviously as a sceptic I’m hoping it won’t be here much longer.

26933 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to John P, 12, #838 of 1045 🔗

I really do hope that is true. I cannot see it lasting, so fingers crossed. Professor Sikora believes the pandemic will be over in this country by the end of July, and even the Daily Fail have a headline today saying that “only” 33,000 people are estimated to have Covid right now, most of whom are not showing symptoms, and that is a drop of 100,000 in 2 weeks. Now the suspicious side of me says that the government is now deliberately downgrading the figures as it wants people back at work. But whatever the reason, let’s hope all the nonsense really is drawing to a close.

I’m still not sure how the government are going to get the majority of the population on side with it though, having scared them witless.

26948 ▶▶▶ Nic, replying to CarrieAH, 5, #839 of 1045 🔗

Like to agree with you but if there is an increase in cases or deaths the media will be shouting to go back in to lockdown!
But I’d like to think the nation would not have the stomoch for another 3 months plus of nothingness.
I feel things are gradually changing particularly as the job losses are already starting.

26956 ▶▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Nic, 2, #840 of 1045 🔗

I know, there is always that risk that a further lockdown could be MSM driven, pretty much like the first one. But surely to goodness, by then sadly people will be losing their jobs in droves and must then join the dots and realise that lockdown will merely make it worse?

27023 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to CarrieAH, 6, #841 of 1045 🔗

If the government wants us all back at work, it only needs to drop the antisocial-distancing completely.

Shouldn’t be that hard. They can surely use their expensive propaganda experts to come up with dazzling figures (true or not) to show the sheep how safe it now is?

It would be worth a quick bribe to the MSM to support it, save the taxpayer a fortune in the long run.

27049 ▶▶▶ Bella, replying to CarrieAH, 5, #842 of 1045 🔗

We don’t have to wait until the end of July, it’s over now. And I don’t need scientists or the BBC to tell me. Pity the government can’t get their fingers out of their arses.

26928 GLT, replying to GLT, 1, #843 of 1045 🔗

We are all aware of the rubbish that goes around social media but this article is a succinct statistical demolition of a recent video that is doing the rounds. It’s an interesting case study into the shady statistical tricks that the scare-mongerers use.

27072 ▶▶ Poppy, replying to GLT, 1, #844 of 1045 🔗

Gosh that graph is just awful. Can you imagine how scared someone would be if they didn’t know any better? There should be some sort of criminal punishment for spreading misinformation and fear like this.

26930 John P, replying to John P, 13, #845 of 1045 🔗

I don’t know if anyone else has had this experience?

In 2009 I worked briefly for a local authority as an accountant. During my stint as a public sector worker I was required to spend a day attending a training programme. These “training” days were compulsory.

One of these, I well remember, involved being told by a pleasant Asian woman about what constituted blackness. Apparently, we were told, Beethoven was black.

I don’t know how long these “training” sessions went on for – if they are still being run in local authorities, but at the time it was rather disturbing, and in the light of what is currently happening much more so.

In my opinion this was not training, but compulsory brainwashing.

26964 ▶▶ Alec in France, replying to John P, 1, #846 of 1045 🔗

Common Purpose? Sounds like it.

26991 ▶▶ Mark, replying to John P, 4, #847 of 1045 🔗

“In my opinion this was not training, but compulsory brainwashing.”

You were correct of course,. Which is another reason why I draw attention to the deep roots of this BLM cultural revolutionary hysteria within our society.

27068 ▶▶ guy153, replying to John P, #848 of 1045 🔗

If Beethoven was black then so was Churchill which means he was OK and we can leave his statue alone.

26931 assoc, replying to assoc, 19, #849 of 1045 🔗

Have I got this right? test and trace – 26,895 people were phoned up by a complete stranger, told they might have been infected by a person who’s identity was not revealed to them, and they willingly agreed to lock themselves up at home for 14 days, without knowing if they were infected or not, and with no legal requirement to do so?
How many of those 26,895 will go 24 hours in isolation, let alone 14 days?
It’s piffle.

26954 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to assoc, 8, #850 of 1045 🔗

I would need to know the name of the person with whom I had allegedly been in contact. Otherwise how would I know it is genuine? And not just somebody who harbours a grudge. I’m not stupid, if one of my friends rang me up and said they had been tested for Covid and have it, and I had been with them at close range for longer than a few minutes, yes I would likely isolate myself quite willingly. Or at least I would carry on looking after my livestock, but make sure I do it alone, and stay away from other people for a couple of weeks. I don’t need the interference of some NHS tracking system to do my “civic duty” as Hancock would say, or “protecting my friends and family” as I would look at it.

26932 Hubes, replying to Hubes, 16, #851 of 1045 🔗

Jan 1st – May 29th- England and Wales

296,595 Total deaths

Deaths from Covid where there were no pre-existing conditions

0-19 years – 3 (0.001%)
20-39 years – 32 (0.011%)
40-59 years -259 (0.087%)
60-79 years – 555 (0.187%)
Over 80 – 485 (0.164%)

Total 1334 – 0.450%.

So the total deaths from covid for people of any age with no underlying condition is less than the total of the average of one days worth of deaths.

26938 ▶▶ assoc, replying to Hubes, 6, #852 of 1045 🔗

True, but that’s only because of the brilliant scientists. Without them the streets would be waist deep in corpses.

26944 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Hubes, 18, #853 of 1045 🔗

But behind every number there is a family grieving. Other causes of death clearly do not involve grieving family members so can be ignored.

Every death is one too many but only if it’s due to this virus. People should be allowed to die of something else because dying from Coronavirus is the worst possible way of dying that mankind has ever seen.

26982 ▶▶▶ SodTheLockdown, replying to Nobody2020, #854 of 1045 🔗

How horrific that covid victims should be bumped off by something like hypoxia! Not even giving them the chance to have a painful end! [/sarcasm]

27008 ▶▶▶ Gossamer, replying to Nobody2020, 7, #855 of 1045 🔗

Indeed. I live in North London, where there are precious few A&E departments (even before the lockdown). And when I read this … well, the message is clearly that child mortality is perfectly acceptable collateral damage.

“Due to the COVID-19 (coronavirus) pandemic, the children and young people’s emergency department at Barnet Hospital has been temporarily closed until further notice. Patients will be diverted to another service including the North Middlesex University Hospital, Watford General Hospital and the Royal Free Hospital as appropriate.”

26941 CarrieAH, replying to CarrieAH, 15, #856 of 1045 🔗

A pleasant shopping experience this morning in a local delicatessen. No queuing to get in – just a notice on the door saying that if they feel there are too many people inside they will close the door for a short while – no one way system, no marks on the floor, you could wander inside wherever you wanted. A couple of signs asking people to keep 2 metres distance but nobody actually enforcing it. Staff not wearing masks, and only the two young cashiers behind the tills were behind a Perspex half screen. Plenty of bakery products, fruit and veg in open baskets on sale to choose your own. Hand gel at the door to help yourself but I don’t mind that – in fact I think that should stay even when this is all over, as it would likely reduce the amount of colds we all pick up. There was just one elderly customer in a mask, so out of politeness I gave her a wide berth. Nobody else was bothering. A pleasant relaxing experience. I will go again.

27014 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to CarrieAH, 6, #857 of 1045 🔗

I went to Aldi last night. OK, it was 7pm and raining but still reasonably busy. Everyone was behaving completely normally.

I joined the checkout queue a trolley-distance from the person in front, which is normal. A couple fell in behind me: a man in his fifties and a woman in her early thirties, who’d been arsing about and teasing each other on one of the isles. He stood a couple of feet behind me, as those of us without trolleys used to do in supermarket queues many weeks ago. I smiled at him. (He ignored me but you can’t always have it both ways.)

Only one person in the shop was wearing a mask – black, somewhat chubby. Fair enough.

At the checkout, I accidentally brushed the cashier’s hand as she moved a package towards me. Shock, horror! We both automatically said sorry, as we English normally do when that happens. I’m delighted to report that she didn’t go pale and reach frantically for the hand gel. She just breezily carried on checking through my purchases (cash or card?) and actually handed the receipt to me, instead of abandoning it on the counter.

A car pulled up beside me in the carpark and a noticeably fat Pakistani woman got out and waddled nonchalantly into the shop, not a mask in sight.

I just hope “non-essential” businesses about to open and their customers can get away with being as sensible about it all.

27041 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Cheezilla, #858 of 1045 🔗

I think part of the issue is that people can’t be sure about how somebody else may react. So they take the safe option and just stick to the guidelines. Over time as more people begin to ignore the rules others will feel it safe to “come out” so to speak.

27059 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to CarrieAH, 1, #859 of 1045 🔗

Businesses behaving like this will prosper!

27158 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to CarrieAH, #860 of 1045 🔗

More power to their elbow and I’m glad you had a positive experience!

26947 kh1485, replying to kh1485, 10, #861 of 1045 🔗

Our local council has just advertised volunteer roles for any aspiring Warden Hodges types. It’s going to be a right barrel of laughs in our town!

We are now entering a new phase when various retail businesses etc. will start opening up again in our high streets. Customers will be faced with all kinds of challenges and will need help and guidance in order to be made aware of how the new systems will work.

To assist with this we are looking for volunteers who would be able to do a 2/3 hour shift anytime between 10am-4pm, Monday to Saturday on the high street in three locations.


1. To support the re-opening of the town and village centres.
2. To provide reassurance, advice and guidance to visitors to the town / village centres.
3. To help manage the flow of visitors around the town / village centres
4. To promote community safety


1. To be a friendly and approachable face within the town / village centres
2. To provide a sense of safety within the town / village centres by being present and advising people on social distancing measures.
3. To encourage people to follow the social distancing guidance at all times, when possible and practicable to do so in the town / village centres.
4. To provide advice and guidance on how best to get around and out of the town / village centre as visitors may be unfamiliar with the new layout.
5. To offer advice and guidance about queuing best practice, including maximum number of people in a queue at any time.
6. To liaise with PCSOs and shop keepers if required.
7. To identify hot spots and take appropriate action, which may include asking for additional Ambassadors at that site; asking for support from PCSOs or other agencies.
8. To contribute to the maintenance of the high quality of life in which the benefits of the unique character of the district are equally available to all residents, workers or visitors.
9. To feedback to UDC on matters of concern that arose in the town / village centre.

The above role description gives a broad outline of the functions of the Ambassador role. However by necessity, these duties must be approached in a flexible manner to accommodate the changing needs and demands of visitors to the town / village centres and businesses. Ambassadors will be expected to adapt to changing circumstances and therefore the outline of duties may change from time to time.

Ambassadors will be provided with Hi-Visibility jackets and hand held two way radios to assist them in carrying out their duties. Ambassadors are not expected to take on a policing role or engage in any activity that could risk their own safety. The role is purely to offer advice and assistance to visitors and shop keepers in the town / village centre, whilst maintaining social distancing measures at all times.

26950 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to kh1485, 10, #862 of 1045 🔗

Oh dear, that really doesn’t sound good. It’s going to attract every Jobsworth going.

26951 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to CarrieAH, 6, #863 of 1045 🔗

It doesn’t specify the exact advice or guidance though. A chance for an enterprising LS member to be subversive. 🙂

26959 ▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to JohnB, 3, #864 of 1045 🔗

Oh, I am sure any applicants will be thoroughly inducted …

26961 ▶▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to JohnB, 3, #865 of 1045 🔗

Now there’s a Good Plan if ever I heard one! A real Cunning Plan.

26952 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to CarrieAH, 3, #866 of 1045 🔗

I know. And you just know that these people won’t be “friendly and approachable”!

27057 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to CarrieAH, 1, #867 of 1045 🔗

Hardly sounds like it’s going to be temporary either..

26960 ▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to kh1485, 3, #868 of 1045 🔗

whilst maintaining social distancing measures at all times’

Is that their own social distancing or other peoples. If they are meant to maintain other peoples social distancing measures at all times how is that not a policing role?

26979 ▶▶▶ SodTheLockdown, replying to Saved To Death, 1, #869 of 1045 🔗

Seems like the job holder will be expected to waste police time by ringing them up when anyone should dare to stand up for their liberties. Hope the council who created this role gets fined every time the cops are needlessly called out.

27021 ▶▶▶ Nic, replying to Saved To Death, #870 of 1045 🔗

Guidance only!

27044 ▶▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to Nic, #871 of 1045 🔗

Re-reading it I guess it does imply giving guidance while maintaining their own social distancing.

26977 ▶▶ SodTheLockdown, replying to kh1485, 1, #872 of 1045 🔗

Perhaps take the role yourself beore a jobsworth can get it, then use it to make a mockery of the whole lockdown delusion.

27317 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to SodTheLockdown, #873 of 1045 🔗

Trouble is, I have a business to try and resurrect from the dead. But I will do my best to make a mockery of it …

26987 ▶▶ Bella, replying to kh1485, 4, #874 of 1045 🔗

Nanny state WRIT VERY EFFING LARGE!!!!!!!

27028 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Bella, 2, #875 of 1045 🔗

Oh yes, and those weasel words: “advice and guidance”.

27020 ▶▶ Nic, replying to kh1485, 2, #876 of 1045 🔗

2 words to them pis off!

27035 ▶▶ Paul, replying to kh1485, 2, #877 of 1045 🔗

Bloody hell,I hope no-one from our council finds out about this,they would be ecstatic,it’s so stupid I’m amazed they didn’t think of it first !.Experience tells me that the sort of person who would volunteer for this will be a much bigger arsehole than someone doing it for the pay,Hi-vis jackets and radios !,that’s going to attract every frustrated wannabe copper from miles around,
All in all this sounds like another potential disaster for the economy in your area,I certainly wouldn’t go anywhere that had prats like them wandering around snooping and giving out orders.

27048 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Paul, 3, #878 of 1045 🔗

I know. I found it quite sinister actually. It seems to be overkill for what are essentially small market towns with very small surrounding villages. My only comfort in all this is the response I have had from customers. It’s been really heartening to see how relieved people are to have some vestige of normality, even if it is just a cup of coffee and a scone.

26965 Poppy, replying to Poppy, 8, #879 of 1045 🔗


The pessimistic Graun, as always. Cherry-picking certain pieces of scientific evidence to make a ‘second wave’ (not so much as a second wave as the first suppressed wave growing again) look inevitable. I find it interesting that the only argument lockdownistas make for keeping us under house arrest is the dreaded ‘second wave’ – a hypothetical event that hasn’t actually happened yet, anywhere in the world. Not exactly empirical evidence. All ‘second waves’ that the MSM has screamed about have been small localised outbreaks that have been easy to control and haven’t overwhelmed health systems.

Even if a large second wave does occur, leaders will have to weigh up the benefit gained from locking down again to stop the spread against the downsides of doing so – and by that point, economies will be in a much weaker position and won’t be able to afford another lockdown.

The article described coronavirus as ‘our generation’s polio’, quoting the doctor who treated Johnson in ICU. Seriously? The justification for this moniker is that Covid-19 has long-lasting effects on the body, even after the virus has gone. What, just like flu does for some unlucky patients? Johnson was one of those unlucky patients who got hit particularly hard by Covid-19. The virus doesn’t affect people uniformly, that’s precisely one of its great mysteries.

26967 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Poppy, 9, #880 of 1045 🔗

“Johnson was one of those unlucky patients who got hit particularly hard by Covid-19”

How do you know? I think he just had a mental breakdown and had to be kept out of the public eye for a few weeks – and of course it made a perfect script for spreading the fear.

26974 ▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to Barney McGrew, 7, #881 of 1045 🔗

I don’t know, but how do you know either? We are all speculating. He just still looks slightly unwell to me. But perhaps there was a mental element to it. I can’t imagine the stress will have done his immune system any favours. He’s just been very off the ball ever since he came out of hospital and he seems to be stuck in some sort of brain fog. Total lack of leadership. Johnson has never been a details man anyway and he was pretty absent as a PM before he caught Covid but at least he was known for his optimism and gumption, both of which have just totally disappeared. It would make sense for the virus to hit him hard and then he assumes that everyone gets affected that badly, which could be part of the reason he is so slow to lift restrictions.

27056 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Poppy, 3, #882 of 1045 🔗

Simon Dolan put up a video of Boris from February on his Twitter feed and it is like watching a different man!

27073 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Carrie, #883 of 1045 🔗

Having had ME for thirty years, all I can say is that if he has post-viral fatigue, he should resign and let a fitter person take the reins, or he might never fully recover.

27070 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Barney McGrew, #884 of 1045 🔗

He was sacked from a journalism job for being drunk.
I did wonder why he hid at his country house during the flood. Maybe he was sobering up?

26968 ▶▶ Steve Hayes, replying to Poppy, 10, #885 of 1045 🔗

leaders will have to weigh up the benefit gained from locking down again to stop the spread against the downsides of doing so”

According to Matt Hancock, the Health Secretary, the government made no attempt to assess how many people would die as a result of its lockdown measures. If they didn’t bother the first time, what makes you think they would bother the second time?

26972 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Steve Hayes, 4, #886 of 1045 🔗

Wtf makes this twat think he’s a leader ? Bad sign they no longer think of themselves as public servants.

26981 ▶▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to JohnB, 2, #887 of 1045 🔗

I agree, but I tend to use the word ‘leaders’ as a generic term for those who implement these measures.

27000 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Poppy, 1, #888 of 1045 🔗

They’re weren’t leaders, they were dictators, once they secretly implemented the SI.

27016 ▶▶▶▶ Nic, replying to JohnB, #889 of 1045 🔗

Hes not hes led by the science blah blah bluster,bluster

26980 ▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to Steve Hayes, 3, #890 of 1045 🔗

Funnily enough, the SAGE minutes taken before the lockdown do make some indication of a weighing-up exercise. They indicate a more nuanced approach than just blanket lockdown. There was also more talk of cost-benefit analysis in the early press briefings; the scientific advisors and the government acknowledged that any sort of lockdown would be strictly temporary for the obvious detrimental side effects and the reason they held off introducing it was because people would get bored of it after a while and not comply. It just made sense to weigh up pros and cons like this because why on earth wouldn’t you for a policy which affects literally every single person in the country?

IIRC the last SAGE meeting before lockdown was 18th March, where it was said that any social distancing measures would take 2-3 weeks to have an effect and that no feedback could be given at that point. A full lockdown was not mentioned at the meeting. I wonder whether in those 5 days some undocumented conversations happened, so as Toby states above, the lockdown was a political decision rather than one led by ‘the science’.

27026 ▶▶▶▶ Steve Hayes, replying to Poppy, 1, #891 of 1045 🔗

Matt Hancock made the admission at the 10 April 2020 Coronavirus Daily Update. Whilst the SAGE minutes do mention the need to weigh risks, they are references to doing so in the future. No assessment of the risks of imposing the lockdown measures was made prior to implementing those measures; and, as far as I can tell, the government has still not bother to assess how many people have/will die as a result of the measures.

At that same press briefing Hancock assured us that he took the matter seriously and that he would make such an assessment immediately. Yet he has signalling failed to make any further comment on this. The obvious inference is the government know the lockdown measures are lethal, but admitting they have killed many thousands is something they think they cannot politically afford.

27054 ▶▶▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to Steve Hayes, 1, #892 of 1045 🔗

I think you are right. I would hope that weighing up is a basic calculation that any policymaker would do. I guess I just expect too much from those I have elected to act in my own interests…!

27015 ▶▶▶ Nic, replying to Steve Hayes, 4, #893 of 1045 🔗

I dont think we can afford to lockdown again you force someone to close their business you must compensate them.
And I dont think people will put up with it a second time o know I wont

26986 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Poppy, 2, #894 of 1045 🔗

The pessimistic Graun, as always .”

You are far, far too polite with that description.

26993 ▶▶▶ grammarschoolman, replying to Mark, 9, #895 of 1045 🔗

That’ll be the Grauniad founded by an 1820s cotton merchant which supported the Confederates in the American Civil War. Cancel!!

27075 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to grammarschoolman, -1, #896 of 1045 🔗

It’s free!
And, significantly, it’s begging like mad for donations at the moment, so presumably the government payment for propaganda has ended. Fingers crossed we might see an alternative viewpoint start to emerge.

26989 ▶▶ Chris John, replying to Poppy, 1, #897 of 1045 🔗

The doomsters and gloomsters are wrong, March was the dreaded second wave

26996 ▶▶ annie, replying to Poppy, 4, #898 of 1045 🔗

Has any of them seen a polio victim?
I have.
The comparison is ridiculous.

27018 ▶▶▶ Nic, replying to annie, #899 of 1045 🔗

Isn’t Drury crippled for life!

27079 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Nic, 1, #900 of 1045 🔗

Not since he died.

26999 ▶▶ ianp, replying to Poppy, 3, #901 of 1045 🔗

Ha!… 2nd wave my arse. Not going to happen, at least from the point of view of the ‘coronavirus’ anyway.

It’s difficult to step back from all this mess and see the actual true picture of what’s happening, the misdirection happening on all sides.

1st Covid 19 virus wave (nonsense basically) 2nd BLM race baiters (even more ridiculous and hysterical -in the middle of it now – nonsense )…

So what’s 3rd? Climate change…? Would not surprise me at all.

27077 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to ianp, #902 of 1045 🔗

They can easily fabricate a second wave if the media is on board.

27013 ▶▶ Nic, replying to Poppy, 5, #903 of 1045 🔗

Boris I’d also an obese extremely unfit individual.

26970 Alec in France, replying to Alec in France, 4, #904 of 1045 🔗

Tomorrow is the Global Day of Action to #ExposeBillGates
Must see: http://www.corbettreport.com/gates/

27055 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Alec in France, 1, #905 of 1045 🔗

What does the action involve?

27132 ▶▶▶ OpenYourEyes, replying to Carrie, 1, #906 of 1045 🔗

Find Bill Gates and pull his trousers down.

26971 Snake Oil Pussy, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, 16, #907 of 1045 🔗

spiked : What has the experience of reopening schools been in other countries?
Cole: Many countries have reopened schools, with and without social distancing. First of all, there have not been spikes in new cases where schools have reopened. Norway, for example, opened schools in May with social distancing between children, but they have now rolled back those measures. In Sweden, schools have been open throughout the crisis and they have not had social distancing in place between children in schools. Cases of coronavirus have continued to fall there. They have just focused on the sensible, respectful hygiene measures. The Netherlands has also had schools open without social distancing between children.

That’s at least 2 countries where children have been unnaturally shielded from the virus and then allowed to mix freely in school. So far neither is showing a second wave in cases.

26975 ▶▶ Alec in France, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, 9, #908 of 1045 🔗

Primary schools reopened here in France on 11 May and ‘colleges’ on 18 May.
Apart from a short closure of the local lycee when the mothers of 2 pupils tested positive (symptomless- both work in the local care home), no upsurge.
See my earlier post today re. the virtual disappearance of Covid in France.

27037 ▶▶▶ Snake Oil Pussy, replying to Alec in France, 2, #909 of 1045 🔗

There’s ‘open’ and there’s ‘back to normal’. Are all children in school, for a full day, every day? And do they still have to play in separate chalk squares?

26976 Biker, replying to Biker, 16, #910 of 1045 🔗

Still don’t care about their lockdown rules. Let them destroy the country. I can’t wait for Scotland to go bankrupt. The poor feckless morons who vote scottish nazi party will suffer and i will laugh in their stupid faces.

26988 ▶▶ Gillian, replying to Biker, 21, #911 of 1045 🔗

Nicola wants furlough money from the UK Exchequer for 2 years! When this is refused, she will blame big bad Westminster for Scotland’s problems. She won’t consider reducing 2 metre to 1 metre until the virus is “eradicated”. She will need to close the Border for that! I see her modelling herself on that Jacinda woman in NZ. Wants the glory but someone else is UK can pay. Silly bitch.

27241 ▶▶▶ John Smith, replying to Gillian, #912 of 1045 🔗

She’s going to jail. Make no mistake!

26995 Sarigan, replying to Sarigan, 2, #913 of 1045 🔗

Scientists challenge moves to reopen borders Leading scientific advisors in countries ahead of the UK in dealing with Covid-19 have warned against relaxing border restrictions to allow mass market travel.


27032 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Sarigan, 14, #914 of 1045 🔗

I think it is time all scientists and modellers were put back in their cupboards and the keys to the doors mysteriously lost.

27169 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to CarrieAH, #915 of 1045 🔗


27034 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to Sarigan, 2, #916 of 1045 🔗

Scientists are also campaigning to shut down academia and STEM

“On June 10, 2020, we will #ShutDownAcademia, #ShutDownSTEM, and #Strike4BlackLives. ”

I’m not sure how much credence we can give to many scientists these days.

27115 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Sarigan, #917 of 1045 🔗

Scientists – uggh

27009 daveyp, replying to daveyp, 29, #918 of 1045 🔗

Only 10 deaths with COVID-19 on the 11th June, and just 123 new lab based infections confirmed with COVID-19 by PHE, yet we still cannot consider coming out of lockdown!

It’s infuriating beyond belief!

27031 ▶▶ Will, replying to daveyp, #919 of 1045 🔗

Have been trying to find the source of the Hospital deaths but can’t, where is it please

27167 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to daveyp, #920 of 1045 🔗

Yes Shapps telling us we still need to stay home as much as possible. FFS!

27019 TyRade, replying to TyRade, 8, #921 of 1045 🔗

The letter by the anonymous Berkeley history professor dissecting Black Lives Matter – especially its ‘lockdown’ of black aspirations – has been taken down by pastebin! I have a friend who’s son is at Berkeley and he told me “the letter” has done the rounds there and has caused quite a kerfuffle.” One kerfuffle too many, evidently.

I’ve applied to the Ministry of Free Money for a grant to open a chain of second hand book-burning shops.

27036 ▶▶ Mark, replying to TyRade, 3, #922 of 1045 🔗

Still up at Reddit , and no doubt elsewhere.

Amusing to me, because I and others here were accused of being “racist” and it was heavily implied that we should “f*** off and take our evil racism elsewhere” (though not in so many words) for writing pretty much exactly what was in that letter, but rather more softly toned because we don’t have (or haven’t claimed) the protective advantage in this kind of situation of being black ourselves, unlike that writer.

The sad reality of our politically censored society is that I and others making these points would most likely have been censored and/or banned in almost any mainstream forum in response to those complaints, which is probably the response they are used to.

Small wonder our society, which has been subjected to this kind of one-sided censorship more or less for a generation now, is so ignorant and deluded on the topic of race and racism.

Here you go, , @cruella. You’ll no doubt be wanting to point out to Toby that the disgusting racism he’s linked to in his piece is neither appropriate nor wanted on this blog.

27030 Threepartslogan, #923 of 1045 🔗


If the track and trace is being implemented for covid-19, wouldn’t they have to implement it for flu as well, bearing in mind the huge numbers of people that are killed by flu each year (despite vaccines)?

And if a workplace is “Covid-19 secure”, shouldn’t it have to be “Flu secure”, “Norovirus secure”, etc. etc.

None of this makes any sense…..

27038 Nobody2020, replying to Nobody2020, 4, #924 of 1045 🔗

So the Scottish position has been set out as suppression/eradication of the virus, as I suspected.

Let’s rewind the clock to when this all started but take the knowledge we have of this virus with us. Based on what we know now it’s unlikely we would have locked down. A targetted approach would have been appropriate.

The question is would the objective have been to eradicate the virus? We know it’s possible because some countries have done it (NZ for example). I would say unlikely because it wouldn’t have been considered deadly enough and more than manageable given what we know. New Zealand probably wouldn’t have locked down as severely thus creating a paradox.

Why would now be time to eradicate the virus if it wouldn’t have been considered then? Is the idea of eradicating the virus simply an act of revenge for the lives it has taken? Is this like the second Gulf War where Bush Jr went in to finish the job his father started.

27063 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Nobody2020, 2, #925 of 1045 🔗

It’s a stalling tactic.

27074 ▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Nobody2020, 6, #926 of 1045 🔗

Ms Sturgeon is in thrall to Devi Sridhar, the 36 year-old professor of public health and mate of Chelsea Clinton, and happy to ignore Hugh Pennington, 82 year-old emeritus professor of bacteriology, who was I recall did post-doc study with the academic who discovered human coronaviruses (as he pointed out in his Telegraph article a couple of weeks ago). Wonder why, but then again, after the UK government decision to rely on the ICL model to direct the lockdown strategy, I can see a link!

27091 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Nobody2020, 1, #927 of 1045 🔗

There will always be someone somewhere who carries it around: there are too many very poor and very badly controlled countries (at war etc) to fully eradicate the virus without the most massive world-wide program. My guess is that it will still exist even in New Zealand, just waiting for a suitable host to show itself.

27105 ▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to IanE, 1, #928 of 1045 🔗

Which is why any lockdown is not only futile, it is the worst possible thing to do. The optimal strategy, bearing in mind another coronavirus is likely to emerge at some point in the future, is to optimise immunity across the portfolio (common cold, SARS 1, MERS, SARS 2) – there is a growing view that cross-immunity exists. Few of us have been exposed to SARS 1 and MERS. Surely, therefore, we need as high a level of SARS 2 immunity as possible, especially among the young and healthy, in case SARS 3 has a more potent impact on a younger age group?

27116 ▶▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 3, #929 of 1045 🔗

I think this is partly what Giesecke meant when he said it’s easy to go into a lockdown but not so easy coming out (or words to that effect).

If the virus is still around how do you open up if you’re not willing to accept some level of infection and death?

27118 ▶▶▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Nobody2020, 2, #930 of 1045 🔗

Exactly what he said in an interview on an Australian news channel when they asked him how to come out of lockdown. He said he didn’t know, he would be watching interest, but that was their problem! I love his blunt manner.

27165 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Nobody2020, 1, #931 of 1045 🔗

You shift the public’s attention to something else. That’s what the taxpayers is paying the Nudge Unit to do.
Let’s face it, the ongoing BLM fiasco is a very effective smokescreen for starters.

27039 Moomin, replying to Moomin, 8, #932 of 1045 🔗

I’m just in Tesco. I’m pretty much ignoring the stupid one way system but they funnel you through to queue up through the frozen food area so you’re standing there freezing at risk of catching a cold for goodness sake! How dumb can you get?

27114 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Moomin, 3, #933 of 1045 🔗

Morrisons are much better. No one way systems and properly designed.

27160 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Victoria, #934 of 1045 🔗

My local Aldi are very laid back.

27201 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Moomin, #935 of 1045 🔗

Take jacket ? I’m always chilly in supermarket freezer areas.

27047 Mark, replying to Mark, 22, #936 of 1045 🔗

From Toby’s FSU Twitter feed :

Leading economists, including Paul Krugman, are calling for Harald Uhlig, a professor of economics at the University of Chicago, to be fired as editor of the Journal of Political Economy because he criticised the BLM movement .”

There should be a special place in Hell reserved for supposed academics who seek to have their fellows sacked or otherwise persecuted for expressing opinions.

27062 ▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Mark, 11, #937 of 1045 🔗

It will be interesting to see whether the other Professor Ferguson – Niall Ferguson – has anything to say. He and Krugman had a long-running and public dispute after the 2008 Financial Crisis. Journal of Political Economy is an extremely prestigious journal and your stuff does not get published in it on a whim (in contrast to The Lancet). Also interesting is the wider debate between Chicago School economists and the neo-Keynesians, to which Krugman aligns. On the issue of academics seeking to have other academics sacked – happened extensively in the 2000s in the Climate Change arena and explains why ‘97% of scientists agree’ it’s man-made!

27087 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 2, #938 of 1045 🔗

Of course that 97% was a manufactured number anyway – based on very many definitely non-scientists!

27098 ▶▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to IanE, #939 of 1045 🔗

‘You just have to believe’ said by one very prominent one in a public meeting. It’s akin to religion, just like believing in ICL modelling!

27086 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Mark, #940 of 1045 🔗

There is!

27051 Threepartslogan, #941 of 1045 🔗

This has been published today on gov.uk.


Haven’t read it all yet but posting here for info….

27065 assoc, replying to assoc, 8, #942 of 1045 🔗

Shapps now talking at the daily press conference about carbon-free flights within a generation!! Talk about fiddling while Rome burns – what planet are these people on? We want the economy open now, not in the year 2525!

27067 ▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to assoc, 3, #943 of 1045 🔗

Maybe he thinks if aircraft do not use carbon fibre in their construction, the flight will be carbon free?

27069 ▶▶ Julian, replying to assoc, 1, #944 of 1045 🔗

They are relishing the attention

27088 ▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to assoc, 11, #945 of 1045 🔗

While that was risible, of more concern was the ‘here and now’ of taking your face mask with you when you leave home in the same way you take your mobile, wallet and house keys. It was said in the same tone as a parent to a little kid when they leave the house for school every day – make sure you have a tissue, have you got your pencil case etc. I resent being spoken to like this by someone whose wages I pay, and who has the intellectual ability of a carrot.

27099 ▶▶▶ scepticalsue, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 7, #946 of 1045 🔗

That’s offensive – a carrot has far more intellectual ability.

27106 ▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 7, #947 of 1045 🔗

It’s the nanny state gone mad. I hate it and just ignore anyone who speaks to me like that. I have been independent all my life and intend to stay that way. I will make my own decisions and stand or fall by them.

27066 Cheezilla, replying to Cheezilla, 3, #948 of 1045 🔗

Just perusing the Grad’s summary of the daily briefing – If I sat through the real thing, I’d have no teeth left!

How about this:
Q. What do you say to businesses in the south-west who are actually quite worried about it [the R value]?
Shapps says stay alert and stay at home as much as possible.

Shop and cafe owners will be very reassured by that advice.
Is he deliberately stupid?

27083 ▶▶ Moomin, replying to Cheezilla, 3, #949 of 1045 🔗


27175 ▶▶ Tenchy, replying to Cheezilla, #950 of 1045 🔗

No, not deliberately. He can’t help it.

27198 ▶▶ Polly816, replying to Cheezilla, #951 of 1045 🔗

What a stupid question. Any business of worth is worried about the damage of lockdown, not about an R number for what is increasingly looking like a virus on the verge of natural extinction, either due to cross-immunity with historic common colds or some other even mroe mysterious factor.

27071 tony, #952 of 1045 🔗

Does anyone have a link to this, as pastebin have now kindly removed it. Don’t you just love free speech.

Slightly off topic and not funny, but this letter by an anonymous history professor at the University of California, Berkeley, taking issue with some of the claims made by the Black Lives Matter movement, as well as the uncritical way in which they’re accepted and regurgitated by American universities, is a must-read. No doubt as soon as his identity is discovered he will be subject to a mobbing and may very well lose his job.

27084 Nobody2020, replying to Nobody2020, 7, #953 of 1045 🔗


“Some of these leaders, especially those in the developing world, said they couldn’t sustain the punishing lockdowns without risking economic catastrophe, especially for their poorest citizens. So the thinking has shifted, from commanding people to stay indoors and avoid the virus and other people at all costs, to now openly accepting some illness and death to try to limit the damage to livelihoods and to individual lives.”

27089 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Nobody2020, 1, #954 of 1045 🔗

“It’s a bit of a mess,” said Indrani Gupta, a health economist in New Delhi. “Our economy is so dependent on labor, millions would have lost their livelihoods and their lives if this lockdown went on for months and months.”
But, she added, the lockdown began too soon.
“We got it in reverse,” she said. “We shut down too quickly and it was too draconian. And I don’t think now is the time to ease up.”

27085 Nobody2020, replying to Nobody2020, 1, #955 of 1045 🔗


“Hundreds of children in Indonesia are believed to have died from COVID-19, giving the Southeast Asian country one of the world’s highest rates of child deaths from the novel coronavirus that experts around the world say poses little danger to the young.
Pediatricians and health officials in the world’s fourth most populous country said the high number of child deaths from a disease that mostly kills the elderly was due to underlying factors, in particular malnutrition, anemia and inadequate child health facilities.”

27090 ▶▶ jrsm, replying to Nobody2020, 6, #956 of 1045 🔗

In other words, they are believed to have died from COVID-19, but they died from “ underlying factors, in particular malnutrition, anemia and inadequate child health facilities.”

27125 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to jrsm, #957 of 1045 🔗

Yes, basically they probably wouldn’t have died otherwise.

27092 Sarigan, replying to Sarigan, 12, #958 of 1045 🔗

Happy Friday everyone (not that any day is that much different to another right now) but we get a new LS update and I cannot wait.

In travel news, 2 doctors booked an August holiday with me today. I asked if they were worried about a 2nd wave possibly affecting the trip. ‘Not in the slighest’ was their reply.

27093 ▶▶ Sarigan, replying to Sarigan, #959 of 1045 🔗


27095 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Sarigan, #960 of 1045 🔗

Did they mean they weren’t worried about a 2nd wave happening or they just weren’t worried either way?

27096 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Sarigan, 1, #961 of 1045 🔗

Yes, the 2 GPs that I know are in the same camp!

27107 ▶▶▶ Cruella, replying to IanE, 2, #962 of 1045 🔗

GPs? I thought they’d be gleefully awaiting a second wave so they could take a second extended holiday!

27233 ▶▶▶▶ John Smith, replying to Cruella, #963 of 1045 🔗

I agree. The medical professional has a lot to answer for.

Hope it pisses down the entire time they’re there.


27100 Mike Smith, 7, #964 of 1045 🔗

Article in the Telegraph making out that the proposed undemocratic removal of statues that the far left doesn’t like is some sort of lark. The caption to the photo of the statue they threw into Bristol harbour is: The statue of Edward Colston plops into the Avon in Bristol last weekend.
Plops? This isn’t a rag week stunt.

27104 Nic, replying to Nic, 1, #965 of 1045 🔗

Intersting I look at the coronavirus worlometer e eryday
I know the figures are probably far from accurate but they do give a rough idea

Noticed infections continue to climb approaching 150000 a day but fatalities remain consistently 5000 or below.

I’m not an expert but I wonder if anything can be learned from this regarding how the virus Is progressing.
Anybody have any views on this data?

27108 ▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Nic, 2, #966 of 1045 🔗

Two teams of doctors in northern Italy, and I think one in the US (or Germany, not sure) have suggested it is becoming less aggressive over time from what they are seeing in their hospitals and surgeries. That seems plausible.

27109 ▶▶▶ Nic, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 1, #967 of 1045 🔗

Yes I sae those reports WHO quick to say this was not correct.

27111 ▶▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Nic, 1, #968 of 1045 🔗

I plead the (misquoted) Mandy Rice-Davies defence!

27112 ▶▶▶ OKUK, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 3, #969 of 1045 🔗

Or the weakest and most vulnerable have all died and people better able to fight the infection are left.

27126 ▶▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to OKUK, #970 of 1045 🔗

Yes, could also explain it, so it ‘looks’ weaker.

27110 RDawg, replying to RDawg, 4, #971 of 1045 🔗

“The Director of the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control (ECDC) agency has told MEPs that wearing masks during the ongoing coronavirus pandemic could pose a potential health hazard.”


27124 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to RDawg, #972 of 1045 🔗

“It now appears to have passed its peak with a decline in most EU countries, but all Member States must continue to do several things to maintain this.”
These, she said, include “robust” surveillance strategies which, for instance, can follow the impact of the virus on health systems, extending testing and return-to-work strategies.
Other necessary measures include contact tracing and ensuring there is sufficient healthcare capacity in case of a “new surge.”
She said, “We must also identity best practice and, finally, engage with the public in explaining all these strategies.”
She told members, “I know you have heard this before, but this is a marathon, not a sprint so we must be able to manage peoples’ expectations of the continuing impact this will have on their lives.”
“People need to know that this is not going to end any time soon and they need to prepare for that reality.”
She added, “We must not drop our guard and must continue to maintain high standards of hygiene and social distancing. People need to be constantly reminded that this will not go away as long as we don’t have a vaccine.”

Same old sinister stuff!

27113 Bart Simpson, replying to Bart Simpson, 5, #973 of 1045 🔗

Jesus wept:


This will be a nail in the coffin of bookshops and ensure that Amazon’s continued dominance.

27121 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Bart Simpson, 3, #974 of 1045 🔗

Utter bonkersness!
How about queuing in the rain then letting your brolly drip all over the books? (Crime I know but sacrifices must be made.)

27128 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Cheezilla, 5, #975 of 1045 🔗

It is bonkers.

As much as I love books and browsing at bookshops, I will sit this one out until these cowards see sense.

People won’t take kindly to be made to queue in the pouring rain, howling wind or snow just in order to get to a bookshop. Won’t be surprised if an unfortunate staff member is on the receiving end of colourful language or a fist smashed into their face.

27134 ▶▶ LuluJo, replying to Bart Simpson, 2, #976 of 1045 🔗

I so want to support my local High Street, as I value it highly, but I simply cannot see myself putting up with all this nonsense. Not to mention the fact that part of me just wants to go in there (without sanitising my hands) and touch every single book I can reach…

27140 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to LuluJo, 7, #977 of 1045 🔗

It’s tempting just to show how absurd all this is. I’m wondering if Waterstone’s are realising that this is in effect a suicide note.

27146 ▶▶▶ ianric, replying to LuluJo, 5, #978 of 1045 🔗

I also want to support the high street and only buy online as a last resort when I can’t find something in the shops. I can’t help thinking that online sellers are influencing government policy as the current situation is a wet dream for online sellers. Firstly shops can’t legally operate for several months and then they take stupid measures which put off customers.

27152 ▶▶▶▶ LuluJo, replying to ianric, 4, #979 of 1045 🔗

Hubby has been convinced from the beginning that this has all been part of the lobbying of the tech companies – working from home, online retail, no face to face GP appointments any more, etc etc.

27188 ▶▶▶ The Spingler, replying to LuluJo, 3, #980 of 1045 🔗

It’s so ridiculous and unnecessary. I escaped from Wales over the English border a couple of days ago to visit an country store. I needed to try on some walking boots and buy some socks. I checked before I went. Yes they have installed sinks at the entrance where you are expected to wash your hands but apart from that you go in, you browse, you pick things up, put them down again. I tried on a few pairs of boots, didn’t buy any, they went back on the racks. I rifled through the socks, picked the ones I wanted. Handed them to the person behind the counter. Yes there was a Perspex screen but she handled everything I passed her and passed them back to me. No one died. It was all quite sane and verging on normal. None of the floor staff were wearing any PPE and weren’t worried about staying 2 metres away. There is sanity out there but you probably won’t find it in the national chains as they are run by management groups rather than real individuals

27193 ▶▶ Paul, replying to Bart Simpson, 2, #981 of 1045 🔗

Why are so many companies so determined to commit commercial suicide ?,it wasn’t long ago that Waterstones were moaning that not enough people were going to bookshops,I think this will really draw the punters in .They’ve lost me as a customer.

27386 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Paul, 1, #982 of 1045 🔗

I’m asking the same as well. If Waterstone’s go under they will have no-one to blame but themselves and they can’t lay this on the door of Amazon.

They should have been making noises to the government before all this.

27117 Julian, replying to Julian, 3, #983 of 1045 🔗

Has anyone eagle-eyed seen anything on what legal force the insistence on masks has on trains and other public transport?

I can’t see anything that covers it in the latest revision of the relevant Coronavirus laws, and neither can I see any sign of the national conditions of travel which govern National Rail being amended.

In tonight’s briefing as usual what seems to me like government advice is presented as law by the speaker and by the BBC. Shapps said not wearing a mask could ULTIMATELY lead to a fine, which suggests they have not yet amended any law that can be enforced.

27120 ▶▶ Hammer Onats, replying to Julian, #984 of 1045 🔗

They said previously they were going to amend the conditions of carriage, a bit like a by-law I guess.

27123 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Julian, 1, #985 of 1045 🔗

I think the transport company have the right to refuse you service if you don’t comply. Bit like a bouncer at a nightclub not letting you in if you’re wearing trainers. Not illegal to wear trainers but they don’t have to let you in.

27147 ▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Nobody2020, 1, #987 of 1045 🔗

Not sure about that. Nightclubs aren’t subsidised with our taxes.

27159 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Nobody2020, 1, #988 of 1045 🔗

Well I think they are bound by the National Conditions of Travel, which I don’t see any sign of having been amended. I don’t think they can make their own rules up.

27178 ▶▶▶▶ arfurmo, replying to Julian, 1, #989 of 1045 🔗

If you go to any travel operator website and dig deep enough you can find the exceptions which are all self certifying. https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/travelling-with-us/on-the-train/face-coverings-faq

27203 ▶▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to arfurmo, #990 of 1045 🔗

Thanks. I think this is the crucial bit: “ The regulations are being brought in through the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984

They haven’t done that yet, that I have seen. I suspect this is still being worked on, hence Shapp’s use of the word “ultimately”. Another example of announcements of new “rules” as if they were law, before they actually are.

This is the mechanism that they have used for introducing most of the restrictions, and the thing that Simon Dolan’s legal challenge is focused on. I understand the intention of that act was more to restrict movement of specific people or groups, rather than indiscriminate restrictions on an entire population.

27187 ▶▶ Paul, replying to Julian, 1, #991 of 1045 🔗

I can’t see it being enforced when the guards are too frightened to pass through carriages with passengers in,like when the poor chap died on a train at Manchester but no-one noticed until it got to Bournemouth.Some of the jumped up little hitlers in the BTP will enforce it I bet.

27119 Victoria, replying to Victoria, 15, #992 of 1045 🔗

Received the 1st newsletter from Simon Dolan ‘s ‘ Keep Britain Free https://www.keepbritainfree.com

Dear Supporter,

Thank you for signing up to the Keep Britain Free campaign.

As you know, this country has a proud history of fighting for freedom. Yet in recent years, Government interference has become endemic in the UK. With great concern, I have felt a creeping encroachment on our liberties by those at Number 10, all of this culminating in the catastrophic lockdown we are living in today.

Through lockdown, the Government has succeeded in stripping us of our freedoms and liberties. Every aspect of our lives is being controlled by a series of chaotic and conflicting measures. We are told who we can see, where we can go and what we can do. We are even told what to think.

These draconian measures are devastating the economy and ruining the lives for many generations to come. Thousands of people are losing their jobs and our children are being denied their education. People are dying.

Through my judicial review proceedings, it has become clear to me that I am in no way alone in my concern.

Keep Britain Free is a new movement representing the millions of people who believe in personal freedom. We want to think of ourselves and we want to take back the responsibility for our own lives.

We are not a political party, but a group of independent thinkers who seek to bring politicians to account, not just on polling day, but every day.

Through a strong and coordinated voice, we will spread our message of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, with a determination to bring about real change.

Too many people have forgotten that the purpose of a Government is to protect its citizens – a simple premise, which through our action, we will seek to return to.

So I want to say a heartfelt thank you for joining our campaign and lending your support. It is hugely appreciated, and I truly believe that as one, our voices will be heard.

Now that you’ve signed up, you will receive regular updates on the campaigns, actions and growth of the movement.

We have also set up new social media channels, to spread our message far and wide. The links are at the bottom of this email. Please follow these channels and take it upon yourselves to spread the word amongst your networks.

To further demonstrate your support, consider changing your profile photo to the Keep Britain Free logo, sharing the attached image asset on your channels, or posting a message of support such as the below:

“I believe in freedom of choice for all and the protection of personal liberties. The Government’s actions are crippling the economy, denying children education, and trampling over human rights. That’s why I am supporting Keep Britain Free – and it’s why we need to #endlockdownnow“

The more followers we have, the stronger our voice will be and the more the Government will listen.

So tell your families, colleagues, professional circles and your friends – anyone who believes in freedom of speech, choice and thought.

Our message is simple – together we can Keep Britain Free.

With kind regards,


27194 ▶▶ Polly816, replying to Victoria, 1, #993 of 1045 🔗

After seeing this posted here I’ve just signed up to Keep Britain Free’s email alerts myself.

P.S. one possible piece of good news. When out go out for a walk i make a habit of saying anti-lockdown slogans to passers-by. Today for the first time I got a fully positive response of utter agreement.

27122 karate56, replying to karate56, 33, #994 of 1045 🔗

The government is truly retarded but Grant Shapps must officially be the pinnacle of all dickheads. I watched the daily briefing and as usual, was greeted with utter disbelief. I may be wrong, but non essential shops can open on Monday – thats everyone bar the hospitality industry. Yet the man with a hair cut from bucks fizz says everyone should stay at home and avoid going to work. Dear god what fucking planet are these belters on? I give up.
Open businesses, let people shop to urgently get the economy moving but don’t go to work and stay at home. Thats a clear message if i ever heard one.
What a selection of utter twats, of an order never seen by mankind before, we have in power.

27127 ▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to karate56, 6, #995 of 1045 🔗

Couldn’t agree with you more – and we have another four and half years of it. As my mother would say, if there’s a war, I’m going to join the other side!

27131 ▶▶▶ Nic, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 6, #996 of 1045 🔗

Could be a total breakdown of law and order before that and the government would be finished anyway.

27137 ▶▶ Nic, replying to karate56, 5, #997 of 1045 🔗

Why dont they scrap these daily briefings and have say 1 a week.
I mean does anyone actually watch this comedy show every day?

27151 ▶▶▶ Gillian, replying to Nic, 4, #998 of 1045 🔗

I find the briefings depressing and wooden. Few probing questions are asked and if asked the answers always avoid the issue.

27184 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Nic, #999 of 1045 🔗

Too many people on here do, apparently. 🙂

27129 Nic, replying to Nic, 13, #1000 of 1045 🔗

Adverts on the tv all I hear is “STAY HOME STAY SAFE”
Nothing but a bunch of whimps in the uk these days
I dont want to stay home I dont I dont I dont!
I want to go to the pub watch a match have fun.

27133 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Nic, 7, #1001 of 1045 🔗

It’s just one of the reasons I never watch live tv nowadays. Only Netflix and Amazon Prime where the relentless propaganda can be avoided. If it’s as often and as bad as that, no wonder my tv watching friends are so taken in by the whole story.

27136 ▶▶▶ Nic, replying to CarrieAH, 4, #1002 of 1045 🔗

Agree will they ever see sense ,but they are in the majority and the likes of me and you will suffer for their stupidity.

27156 ▶▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Nic, #1003 of 1045 🔗

Sadly that is very true.

27144 ▶▶▶ Bella, replying to CarrieAH, 3, #1004 of 1045 🔗

Well Netflix has just added a BLM collection which seems a bit like virtual signalling to me. Of course they matter, but come on…

27155 ▶▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Bella, #1005 of 1045 🔗

They haven’t – yet – removed the Fawlty Towers episode which seems to have caused a furore. I’ve just watched it!

27183 ▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to CarrieAH, 2, #1006 of 1045 🔗

I think you got away with it then. 🙂

27199 ▶▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to CarrieAH, 1, #1007 of 1045 🔗

Well that’s something. Netflix is one of the mechanisms I’m using to keep me sane.

27154 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Nic, 5, #1008 of 1045 🔗

I drove past a house today with STAY SAFE *RAINBOW* scrawled all over the garage door. It looked like a kid did it but it still made me gag.

27161 ▶▶ Jonathan Castro, replying to Nic, 3, #1009 of 1045 🔗

I want to start seeing anti-litter adverts on TV instead. (although I don’t have a licence anyway!)

27182 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Nic, 1, #1010 of 1045 🔗

I am continually disappointed in several friends who assume they can watch tv without suffering the ill-effects. A combination of arrogance (“Doesn’t affect me”), and an assumption they’ll miss out somehow if they don’t tune in.

27185 ▶▶ Paul, replying to Nic, 4, #1011 of 1045 🔗

I’m sick of the adverts too,endless ‘we’re all in together’crap,lots of happy families really enjoying the lockdown,companies saying how much they care about us and how they are making it ‘safe’ to shop in their stores,constant praise of the NHS and it’s heroes and numerous ‘in these uncertain times you can trust on us’ bullshit from numerous banks and building societies.It’s the same on the radio aswell.I don’t watch any live tv now,my wife does though so I can’t tell the BBC to stick it’s licence where the sun doesn’t shine unfortunately.

27135 Sarigan, 2, #1012 of 1045 🔗

The European Commission has recommended travel to the EU from selected non-EU countries be allowed to restart from July 1.

However, Germany extended its foreign office advice against all but essential travel to most of the world until the end of August this week.



27138 sam, replying to sam, 2, #1013 of 1045 🔗

I’m afraid our globalist Blair says we must hvae digital ID !
Tony Blair says people will need ‘digital ID’ to prove ‘disease status’ in future

27139 ▶▶ Bella, replying to sam, 13, #1014 of 1045 🔗

Vile, vile man

27181 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to Bella, 4, #1015 of 1045 🔗

Indeed, though I would shift the ‘e’ from the end to the beginning of that adjective!

27150 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to sam, 11, #1016 of 1045 🔗

Over my dead body Tony. You will literally have to kill me before that happens.

27170 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to sam, 10, #1017 of 1045 🔗

Dreadful, awful man.

27142 rodmclaughlin, replying to rodmclaughlin, #1018 of 1045 🔗

this letter by an anonymous history professor at the University of California, Berkeley, taking issue with some of the claims made by the Black Lives Matter movement, as well as the uncritical way in which they’re accepted and regurgitated by American universities” https://pastebin.com/WBzAFDgA . “ This page is no longer available. It has either expired, been removed by its creator, or removed by one of the Pastebin staff.” I wonder which it was.

27168 ▶▶ Mark, replying to rodmclaughlin, #1019 of 1045 🔗

Knowing what we know about the generally left-censorious political inclinations of tech company staff, the first guess should be that it was taken down, either voluntarily by staff at the company or under coercive pressure from other tech companies their business depends upon.

27179 ▶▶▶ Alice, replying to Mark, #1020 of 1045 🔗

Hello, Sceptics,

Has anyone saved that letter, or does anyone know of an alternative source/link? I sent the link to a friend in the US yesterday, but it’s too late, he can’t see it now! It’s such a shame – it was an excellent summary of the problems we are facing.

Big thank you to Toby, and to all the contributors for this great site.

27495 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Alice, #1021 of 1045 🔗

Still up at Reddit .

If that goes, it’s posted as full text in a comment on the next Sceptics.

27148 Nic, #1022 of 1045 🔗

I get the impression the government are starting to give up the fight most iam sure would walk away given the chance.
It’s not that the majority of them need the money

27149 HawkAnalyst, replying to HawkAnalyst, 12, #1023 of 1045 🔗


‘The science’ was right – it was the Government that was wrong SAGE advisors never suggested a full lockdown – so why are they now trying to rewrite history? By TOBY YOUNG

The penultimate SAGE meeting before the lockdown was on March 18 where it was noted that the impact of the measures introduced so far would not be known for two or three weeks. According to the minutes, the boffins said it was too early to say whether additional measures – such as closing pubs, restaurants and entertainment venues – would be necessary.
In short, Boris Johnson and his Cabinet were not “following the science” when they took the decision to place everyone under virtual house arrest, and nor were they ignoring it by not doing so earlier. On the contrary, their scientific advisors were urging a more cautious approach.
In other words, the containment measures introduced on March 16 were more than sufficient to halt the spread of the virus. The government’s scientific advisors did not urge the Prime Minister to go any further, and they were right not to do so. I’m convinced that the decision to place the entire country in suspended animation on March 23 will end up costing more lives than the pandemic.
The myth that’s grown up around the lockdown, then, is the opposite of the truth. Boris didn’t turn a deaf ear to the scientists urging him to lock down. Rather, he ignored their advice to tread carefully and rushed into one of the worst decisions in our history. Next time Professor Ferguson speaks out, that’s the story he should tell.

27153 ▶▶ Nic, replying to HawkAnalyst, 1, #1024 of 1045 🔗

Wow this should be all the newspapers headline story tomorrow

27163 ▶▶ Mark, replying to HawkAnalyst, 4, #1025 of 1045 🔗

Makes me wonder again, in the light of past revelations, just how much it was Cummings’ political influence, panicking about negative NHS-related headlines, that pushed
Johnson over the edge and into full panic mode?

Don’t know if Toby mentions this in the article as I don’t have or want a Telegraph subscription.

27173 ▶▶▶ HawkAnalyst, replying to Mark, #1026 of 1045 🔗

I do, so i highlighted the best bits

27174 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to HawkAnalyst, #1027 of 1045 🔗

Does he name names, in terms of who was pushing the lockdown crime to the PM, politically?

27191 ▶▶▶▶▶ HawkAnalyst, replying to Mark, 1, #1028 of 1045 🔗


No names

More from it:

The penultimate SAGE meeting before the lockdown was on March 18 where it was noted that the impact of the measures introduced so far would not be known for two or three weeks. According to the minutes, the boffins said it was too early to say whether additional measures – such as closing pubs, restaurants and entertainment venues – would be necessary.
In short, Boris Johnson and his Cabinet were not “following the science” when they took the decision to place everyone under virtual house arrest, and nor were they ignoring it by not doing so earlier. On the contrary, their scientific advisors were urging a more cautious approach.
In the SAGE meeting on March 23, the day lockdown was announced, the attendees flagged up the negative impact of the containment measures. “Actuarial analysis is required to estimate deaths caused indirectly by Covid-19, including those caused by the social interventions,” says one of the minutes. Another says: “Given the clear links between poverty and long-term ill health, health impacts associated with the economic consequences of interventions also need to be investigated.”
Some will point to the report by Professor Ferguson and his Imperial College team, warning the government that hundreds of thousands would die if it stuck with its mitigation strategy. But that paper stopped short of calling for a full lockdown. The measures it recommended were precisely those introduced by the government on March 16. As the journalist Christopher Snowdon notes, “The only time Ferguson and colleagues use the word ‘lockdown’ in the text is when they are making a distinction between their proposals and an actual lockdown.”
What’s so odd about Professor Ferguson’s remarks on Wednesday is there’s no reason to think infections were doubling every three or four days in the week before lockdown. Simon Wood, professor of statistical science at Bristol University, published a paper on June 1 showing that the R number in England and Wales was less than 1 before March 23. The same conclusion has been reached by Carl Heneghan , professor of evidence-based medicine at Oxford.

27180 ▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to HawkAnalyst, 4, #1029 of 1045 🔗

I think we need to be careful at this stage. From what I have seen of the SAGE minutes, and having spent considerable time looking at official declassified government documents in The National Archives, they appear to me to be ‘minutes of minutes’, produced in full knowledge that they would be in the public domain long before the standard 30 year rule. To make a definitive case, we would need to see all the ‘off record’ discussions (memos, emails etc) among the protagonists. Specifically, we need to know how, why and when a dataset from China was provided to ICL for modelling various outcomes in the UK and US (the mid-March, non-peer reviewed paper). This coincided with very aggressive public statements, (volte face), from The Lancet’s Dr Horton on Twitter and Professor Ashton on Question Time. Possibly, or possibly not coincidentally, the teachers unions were agitating on Twitter, and the universities were already making plans to close halls of residence.

27189 ▶▶ StevieH, replying to HawkAnalyst, 1, #1030 of 1045 🔗

It is common knowledge (or should be!) that Macron threatened to close the border if we didn’t lock down like in France – no imports, no exports. Faced with that threat, HMG had little option but to follow suit.

27196 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to StevieH, 1, #1031 of 1045 🔗

Can you explain your thinking that “HMG had little option but to follow suit”?

27162 Doctor Y, replying to Doctor Y, 1, #1032 of 1045 🔗

Any chance that people can fill in this survey about their thoughts on lockdown (which is from LSE).
I really think it needs some more sceptic views to counter the general lunacy that appears to have taken over…

Thanks! (Not my study)

27303 ▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to Doctor Y, #1033 of 1045 🔗

Will do! Thank you.

27186 CarrieAH, replying to CarrieAH, 5, #1034 of 1045 🔗

Simon Dolan has tweeted an update about his legal case against the government over lockdown and quarantine for travellers. He says their letter of defence is 58 pages long, arrived 3 minutes before the deadline, and that they are using a QC and 3 barristers. He says they are “evidently terrified.”

27202 ▶▶ annie, replying to CarrieAH, 2, #1035 of 1045 🔗

I really, really hope that he’s right.
If it wasn’t blasphemous, I would say ‘crucify them’.

27301 ▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to annie, 2, #1036 of 1045 🔗

Even if Simon Dolan actually loses in court, I am hoping he may actually “win” anyway just by the amount of information that will inevitably come out during the case. The MSM will pick over it like rats in a dustbin once it has got that far – the Telegraph will love it – and a lot more will become public. Fingers crossed!

27302 ▶▶▶▶ CarrieAH, replying to CarrieAH, 1, #1037 of 1045 🔗

And as Toby’s article says, SAGE never suggested a full lockdown and Johnson and his cabinet were not “following the science” when they decided to go ahead. If this gets to Court they are likely deep in pigs’ muck and they will know it.

27190 FiFiTrixabelle, 4, #1038 of 1045 🔗

I’ve just discovered this evening that childminders in Scotland (under Phase one of our easing) have been allowed to start operating again. They can take children from up to 4 different households plus their own. Am I the only one to think this is utter madness when schools and nurseries are shut and currently I’m only allowed to go 5 miles, have a socially distant bbq in the garden and pee in a bush?

27192 George Dance, replying to George Dance, 2, #1039 of 1045 🔗

This being a UK site, I wonder how many are familiar with the American Institute of Economic Research – an old and venerable libertarian thinktank that’s transformed into a leading voice lockdown and shutdown scepticism on our side of the pond. Here’s my blogged abridgement of their comment on the “3 million lives saved” claim from the ICL (Imperial College for Lockdowns). Those who want to learn more about AIER can click through to their site.

“Imperial College’s claim that lockdowns saved 3 million lives in Europe relies on the same bad logic as Donald Trump’s claim that he saved 2 million American lives.”

27200 ▶▶ annie, replying to George Dance, #1040 of 1045 🔗

Yes, Eggs in moonshine.
But the zombies believe it. The longer we are all banged up, the more lives will be saved.
Great God in Heaven.

27197 HawkAnalyst, #1041 of 1045 🔗


REPORT: Over 95% of UK “Covid19” deaths had “pre-existing condition”

Over 95% of “COVID Deaths” recorded in England and Wales had potentially serious comorbidities, according to statistics released by NHS England.

The latest figures make for pretty stark reading. Or, rather, they would make for stark reading…if they didn’t follow the exact same pattern already shown in other nations around the world.

You can read the full report here . We’re going to focus on the comorbidity stats. Here are the number of deaths where Covid19 was listed as the only cause , split by age:

  • Ages 0-19: 3
  • Ages 20-39: 32
  • Ages 40-59: 255
  • Ages 60-79: 551
  • Ages 80+: 477

These are across all of England and Wales since the beginning of the “pandemic”.

Simply put: Of the 27045 deaths with Covid19 in English hospitals (up to June 3rd), only 1318 had no pre-existing conditions . That’s less than 5%.

Christopher Bowyer has made some great graphs for the figures at Hector Drummond Magazine, none more impactful than this this:
<strong comment image ?x95016
[click to enlarge]
Those big green bars are all the people who died “with” Covid19 AND some other serious disease. The little yellow bars are the people who died with Covid19 and nothing else.
In fact, the 25,727 other cases were listed as having over 42,000 comorbidities . That’s almost 2 each (the report itself points out that many patients had multiple conditions). This, again, aligns completely with the Italian figures which said over 80% of fatalities had at least 2 comorbidities .
What are these comorbidities? We don’t know. Not entirely specifically. The report lists ischemic heart disease, chronic kidney disease, asthma and dementia among others. But it also lists nearly 19,000 “other” conditions, presumably including liver failure, emphysema, AIDS, ALL forms of cancers and literally potentially thousands of other diseases.
Implicit in this is the possibility that these diseases were the actual cause of death , and that Covid19 played no direct role at all.
Further, the PCR test for coronavirus can return false positives in up to 80% of cases , so it’s entirely possible the majority of these deaths never even had the virus .
This isn’t breaking news. We have covered this numerous times. No matter how you switch them around the Covid numbers, as they currently stand, will never add up.

27204 HawkAnalyst, #1042 of 1045 🔗

Businesses can scrap two-metre rule if they take other coronavirus precautions, scientists say

The two-metre social distancing rule can be abandoned by businesses reopening after lockdown if they introduce other measures to reduce the spread of coronavirus, Government scientists have told ministers.
Following a political backlash against the two-metre rule , the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (Sage) published a paper on Friday which set out protocols – such as regular breaks, and getting workers to sit side by side – that would make it much safer for people to be within one metre of each other.


When people are at close range and face to face, transmission is most likely to be through respiratory droplets, but aerosol transmission of fine particles can carry further depending on ventilation.
The new research says that sitting within one metre of a person side by side or back to back is as safe as facing a person at two metres when indoors.
“When people are side to side or behind one another, risk is via aerosols and so is determined by the influence of ventilation; at one metre the exposure risks would be similar to two metres when face to face in an indoor environment,” it says.
One business source said civil servants had been in touch in recent days asking if they would “kick up a fuss” if the Government cut the distance to one metre.
Government sources confirmed the calls had taken place but they said they were part of the usual liaison with business groups, adding that “there is always business stakeholder engagement, asking ‘just how badly do you feel about this’ to gauge reaction.”

27208 HawkAnalyst, replying to HawkAnalyst, #1043 of 1045 🔗


I’m an ER Doctor. Here’s What I Feel OK Doing as My State Reopens.

So should I just ignore the fact that restrictions are easing, and stay home?

Well, I haven’t been.

Yes, we would all be safer at home. If you had the ability to ride out the pandemic, however long it takes, by staying home, growing and cooking your own food, ordering nothing off the internet, and avoiding contact with anyone except those who had chosen to isolate themselves with you, you could be 100 percent guaranteed not to be infected with coronavirus. You would also be guaranteed not to die in a car accident, an occurrence whose lifetime risk is 1 in 100 for people who live in this country. And yet most of us drive every day.

I know that people want to be safe and healthy but that they also want art, and laughter, and music, and bourbon—to create them and to consume them.

Responsible people take risks all the time in the course of normal life. And as responsible people, both out of regard for ourselves and for others, we take steps to mitigate those risks. We drive, but wear seat belts; we bike to work, but wear helmets; we drink alcohol, but don’t get behind the wheel of a car right afterward; we have swimming pools in our yards, but have fences around them. So can we return to some semblance of normal, but do it without endangering ourselves or others?

For every activity I think about going back to, I consider the opportunity costs. For example, just as Virginia began to ease restrictions, a local sports club reopened its outdoor tennis courts. I called a friend and we played tennis for an hour. We were well over 6 feet apart, and although we obviously had indirect contact through the balls, we were careful not to touch our faces and we washed our hands afterward. It felt safe, and also exhilarating. Did I absolutely need to play tennis? Of course not. Was it terribly risky? Probably not. Did it make me happy? Undoubtedly, it did. And we are all in need of a little happiness right now.

The value of a life is not just in the simple act of living it, but in how you do so. I know that people want to be safe and healthy but that they also want art, and laughter, and music, and bourbon—to create them and to consume them. Not everyone can do those things in lockdown, but if you can, how do you decide?

There are three things that enter my calculus for what I should and shouldn’t do right now. The first: Am I putting anyone else at risk? For me, “anyone else” includes all my patients, so I feel acutely responsible for making sure I am safe. For many people, “anyone else” will be family members or close associates who are elderly or have other risk factors for getting very sick from COVID. I consider the downstream effects of increasing my risk on those whose well-being I am responsible for. Without this, being young-ish (42) and with no chronic illnesses, I might be tempted to be more cavalier. The risk to others is perhaps the most complicated to determine. When I think about visiting my parents, who are in their 70s, I worry about infecting them. And, of course, it would be safest to stay away. But I also worry about them feeling isolated, and the fact they miss their grandchildren. So one weekend, just as Virginia began to lift restrictions and I had not worked a shift in the ER for five days, I drove my family up to see them, and we sat in their living room with masks and on their back porch without them. If case numbers climb where I work, I probably will feel less safe visiting them and will stay away. But if this drags on for years without a vaccine, I imagine I will then feel differently. They and I will weigh the risk of them getting COVID and dying, against the sorrow of missing their grandchildren growing up, and perhaps we will all decide the risk is worth it.

Because I consider myself a possible risk to others because of my job, I might not invite friends over for dinner inside my house right now. But I might consider grilling in the backyard, with people I trust to wear masks in public, wash their hands, and realize that the coronavirus really is a threat. (This brings up a side note: This is a time to reflect upon the company we keep. If we gave freely of ourselves in the pre-COVID era, perhaps it is time to consider just how important any given person is in our lives. Some people we were friendly with before just might not make the cut. There is legitimate value right now in keeping one’s social circle a little bit smaller.)

A second consideration is the risk of the activity I want to partake in against its importance to me. And although some of the things I would like to do could be categorized as frivolous, I intend to do them anyway. Friends have asked me: Are pedicures safe? Perhaps they are, and so may be spa visits and haircuts; weeks after two Missouri hairstylists exposed more than a hundred customers to COVID because they worked while sick, no customer has yet tested positive at the time of writing. If this remains true, it suggests that close quarters with masks, which the two stylists were both wearing, might be OK. While none of these activities are essential, they are things many of us are longing to do. And what we have learned is that there are real ways to make them safer: physical distancing, masks, and good working conditions for employees. (This matters because it’s a good indicator of how able the employees can protect themselves as they want to—if you were already worried that your nail salon was exploiting its workers, now is definitely not the time to go back, for their sake or yours.) If you don’t long to do something, then maybe holding off on doing it for now is the best option. For example, there is no dearth of movies on Netflix I haven’t seen, so going to see a new release in a theater holds no fascination for me. But if everyone is 6 feet apart at the movies and wearing masks, an armchair movie critic might choose to make this their first pandemic outing. Similarly, if I couldn’t drive to see close family, I might consider getting on a plane but would wear a mask and bleach-wipe my surroundings. Each of us will decide, with a certain degree of arbitrariness, what we consider safe and important. But I wouldn’t go to a crowded bar, or a pool party where no one was wearing a mask, no matter how much I wanted to. That would clearly just not be safe right now.

It’s not just the frivolous that concerns me. As the days with COVID march on, some of the things we have been avoiding will become necessary. Adults will need to go back to work, and we’ll need to send our children to school and day care. How will we learn how, and teach our children how, to be safe in those settings? The CDC has published mitigation strategies for schools and business, and we will want to know that our employers and school districts are taking them seriously. While there is data that suggests children aren’t a huge source of transmission, we really won’t know how safe school is until we have tried it. I intend to send my children back as soon as schools are open, but I imagine there will be some parents who won’t want to. Until that long-awaited back-to-school day arrives, I’ll try to ingrain COVID safety in my kids. They now always wash their hands for 20 seconds or leave their shoes by the door, and they are learning to be comfortable in masks. And for us adults, the skills we acquire in our occasional forays into the world will serve us well when work in an office is a regular occurrence again; not touching our faces, and sanitizing obsessively, will have to become second nature. We’ve already contended with decisions about something that is morally necessary: protesting. People have done integrated strategies to mitigate their risk of COVID even as they march and kneel in the streets.


There’s a lot of shaming on the internet of people who want to go out and do things, and this makes us question our desires to do so. Yes, we all want to survive this pandemic. But we also need to learn to live with COVID around us and take steps to protect ourselves and our communities. Ultimately, most of the risks we will all take won’t be about pedicures, or haircuts, or eating at a steakhouse. They will be about seeing the people we love, being with the people who sustain us, interacting in a way that makes us feel human. While love can be expressed in an email, on a computer screen, in a phone call, those digital forms of communication are no substitute for sharing the same physical space with another person, even if the words are the same. And wanting that closeness does not make you a bad person. Just wear a mask when you do it.

27245 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to HawkAnalyst, #1044 of 1045 🔗

Makes his/her kids wear masks. Fucker.

27575 rodmclaughlin, #1045 of 1045 🔗

The letter from an anonymous academic which was disappeared from Pastebin has shown up here: https://uncoverdc.com/2020/06/12/uc-berkeley-history-professors-open-letter-against-blm-police-brutality-and-cultural-orthodoxy/


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