Last updated2020-08-10T09:50:04



78041 ▶▶ HawkAnalyst, replying to HawkAnalyst, 37, #2 of 841 🔗

One of the comments!

  • Snowman
  • 1 HOUR AGO
  • Presumably the Teaching Unions have banned their members from pubs….because of the risk ???
78053 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to HawkAnalyst, 2, #3 of 841 🔗


78828 ▶▶▶ Phoenix44, replying to HawkAnalyst, #4 of 841 🔗

And presumably nobody who goes to the pub has children…

This is driven by absurd modelling of R which literally cannot be accurate. Its assumptions and nothing more, and others a wide range of assumptions that could be used. Most would show the opposite.

78120 ▶▶ richard riewer, replying to HawkAnalyst, 1, #5 of 841 🔗

Who told them?

78236 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to HawkAnalyst, 12, #6 of 841 🔗

There’s a puritan thing going on here. Some people are appalled in principle that pubs are open before schools, because in their fevered imaginations that means that the country values getting drunk over the education of children. No it doesn’t. It just means that at one time there was a slight amount of rationality in the government’s response, even after the lockdown was implemented, and there was an idea of an inevitable progression out of lockdown and back to some attempt to re-start the economy, restore people’s freedoms and make life worth living again. That has now been snuffed out.

78248 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Barney McGrew, 17, #7 of 841 🔗

There was some Scottish (might have been Irish) woman on TV the other day saying that keeping schools shut reduces transmission because it stops people from doing other things such as going to work.

That’s some really twisted thinking right there.

78660 ▶▶▶▶ Rowan, replying to Nobody2020, 2, #8 of 841 🔗

There is a place for her in the government.

78039 Cheezilla, replying to Cheezilla, 10, #9 of 841 🔗

I’ve just finished watching UK Column’s latest broadcast.

It has worrying info that everyone needs to be aware of.

Please watch it when you can: https://www.ukcolumn.org/ukcolumn-news/uk-column-news-5th-august-2020

78063 ▶▶ Quernus, replying to Cheezilla, 6, #10 of 841 🔗

Definitely sobering stuff. But a great call to action at the end – time for citizen journalism to come into its own.

78564 ▶▶ karenovirus, replying to Cheezilla, 2, #11 of 841 🔗

About johnson giving all those powers to local authorities (hoping to avoid blame in the long run).
Those powers will not be exercised by our local councillors but by the paid officials, self important Directors of Directorates who had an early practice run in closing roads to implement long laid plans for cycle lanes, all in the name of Social Distancing.

That will be just the start of their unaccountable common purpose control freakery.

78052 Major Panic, replying to Major Panic, 2, #12 of 841 🔗

I had conviced myself there would be a postcard from Latvia today – my crystal ball’s going in the bin!

78092 ▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to Major Panic, 1, #13 of 841 🔗

I hope you did not lose too much at the bookies 😉

78125 ▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Major Panic, 1, #14 of 841 🔗

I have a Facebook contact in Latvia, Inga. Now I have all her friends, contacts, etc. I decided to let them all jump aboard. Some only communicate in Latvian and German, among other languages.

78303 ▶▶ Anon, replying to Major Panic, #15 of 841 🔗

There was a Postcard from Latvia earlier, it was the only item under 2020/08/05 before all this appeared above, it’s now disappeared. Toby, what happened?

78058 watashi, replying to watashi, 3, #16 of 841 🔗

Glad I can get onto this page again. Don`t know what was going on there.

78107 ▶▶ nat, replying to watashi, 4, #17 of 841 🔗

I had a problem too. Did you get a message saying this website was pretending to be Lockdown Sceptics ?

78122 ▶▶▶ Edward, replying to nat, 2, #18 of 841 🔗

Yes, I had something like that a couple of hours ago. Maybe enemy agents from HMG are hacking into the site.

78145 ▶▶▶ watashi, replying to nat, 1, #19 of 841 🔗

No I had a security issue message. Strange.

78280 ▶▶ mjr, replying to watashi, 1, #20 of 841 🔗

just a technical problem. .your browser always checks the website’s security certificate and if it detects any problems it initially will block the site with the error message as default. This can be due to various reasons (including for examplesystem clocks being out of alignment) but usually it is the certificate being out of date. All it needed was the host to update their certificate which they did.

78440 ▶▶▶ Jonathan Smith, replying to mjr, #21 of 841 🔗

I had a message saying my clock was out of alignment, but it wasn’t.

78442 ▶▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Jonathan Smith, #22 of 841 🔗

Me too. I had two clocks going and they both had the right time and date.

78061 Lockdown Truth, replying to Lockdown Truth, #23 of 841 🔗

Hi all

Sorry to keep asking…

I’ve been taking in your advice and the general theme I think is that we don’t want a name that preaches or puts people off with words like free, fight, wake etc. It’s the unaware masses we’re after not ourselves.

I have two final (?) (I hope – as time is passing) names I’d like your opinions on. I’ll put them below and you can click up or down for them and/or comment.



78062 ▶▶ Lockdown Truth, replying to Lockdown Truth, #24 of 841 🔗

“How Many Are We?”

78086 ▶▶▶ Hoppity, replying to Lockdown Truth, #25 of 841 🔗

Has me imagining people who are bewildered/don’t know what’s going on, or how to address it. I’ve missed much of what’s been discussed on here. Was ‘No new normal’ thrown out?

78091 ▶▶▶▶ Hoppity, replying to Hoppity, #26 of 841 🔗

‘Back to the future’?

78594 ▶▶▶ rational actor, replying to Lockdown Truth, 3, #27 of 841 🔗

How about We Are Many. That is a positive statement that your know you have strength that has been artificially disabled by malevolent means. It references The Mask of Anarchy by Shelley, which everyone ought to read again, especially this part:

‘Men of England, heirs of Glory
Heroes of unwritten story,
Nurslings of one mighty Mother.
Hopes of her, and one another;

‘Rise like Lions after slumber
In unvanquishable number
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you –
Ye are many – they are few.

78064 ▶▶ Lockdown Truth, replying to Lockdown Truth, -5, #28 of 841 🔗

“We Have Questions”

78126 ▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Lockdown Truth, #29 of 841 🔗

How about ?

78140 ▶▶▶▶ Lockdown Truth, replying to richard riewer, #30 of 841 🔗


78161 ▶▶▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Lockdown Truth, 1, #31 of 841 🔗

A question mark ? and nothing else.

78183 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Lockdown Truth, replying to richard riewer, 1, #32 of 841 🔗

That’s my logo

78348 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Lockdown Truth, #33 of 841 🔗

How about The Prisoner episode titled ‘The General’? It was about re-educating people. Number 6 slotted a question into the computer and it blew up. Remember the question?

78080 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Lockdown Truth, 2, #34 of 841 🔗

Sorry I have not been following this and this is probably not that helpful a suggestion, but what about appealing to people’s desire to get back to normal and enjoy life again, and emphasising there is good news about the virus, that things are not as bad as people think?

78108 ▶▶▶ Lockdown Truth, replying to Julian, 1, #35 of 841 🔗

That’s the whole point! 🙂

78200 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Julian, 6, #36 of 841 🔗

“Back to Normal !” ?

78240 ▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to JohnB, 1, #37 of 841 🔗

I think that sums it up quite well

It’s over?

78544 ▶▶▶▶▶ T. Prince, replying to Julian, #38 of 841 🔗

It’s over before it began?

78435 ▶▶▶ DJ Dod, replying to Julian, 2, #39 of 841 🔗

Life is for living!

78666 ▶▶▶ Rowan, replying to Julian, 1, #40 of 841 🔗

That won’t happen without a very hard fight. No use pretending otherwise, the government and its controllers are out to skewer us all.

78634 ▶▶ TyLean, replying to Lockdown Truth, 5, #41 of 841 🔗

You really can’t be subtle with these fucking morons…. even if you spell it out with crayon and rainbows, they still don’t understand. You will never win them over with logic or kindness, because they are the culture of attacking and shaming. You can only beat them at their own game. Shame the fuck out of them. Treat them like worms and slaves – they clearly like it! Abuse them more than the government abuses them, and then they’ll probably come crawling like the dogs they are. (That’s totally unfair of me, dogs are lovely). Make them feel like the pieces of shit they are. I am so tired of people making excuses for these intellectually lazy bed wetters.

78669 ▶▶▶ Rowan, replying to TyLean, 1, #42 of 841 🔗

That’s about it. There is a hard slog ahead, if we are going to stop this governmental genocide.

78687 ▶▶ Benjamin rabbit, replying to Lockdown Truth, #43 of 841 🔗

Hashtag #WDL2 as in (I) won’t do lockdown 2

78127 ▶▶ Mike Collins, replying to Dudley do right, 3, #45 of 841 🔗

Unfortunately it’s definitely true. NoGP visits, banned from hospital and care homes starving our elderly relatives to death. If we really cared we’d rise up and put a stop to this.

78172 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Dudley do right, #47 of 841 🔗

Yep, I wept like a child when I watched it yesterday.

78270 ▶▶ BTLnewbie, replying to Dudley do right, #48 of 841 🔗

Why would care homes do this? They need full beds, not empty beds, as that’s their only source of income.

78302 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to BTLnewbie, #49 of 841 🔗

Plenty more victims available. There’s always a waiting list.

This crime calls for blood. Righteous vengeance.
Anybody sent a the above link to so-called called Age Concern?

78316 ▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Dudley do right, 1, #50 of 841 🔗

From what I’ve heard direct from family who work for the NHS (and in the overseas equivalent) and care homes and anecdotal from family of friends and other medical staff I’ve spoken to over the months it’s 100% true.

78066 stefarm, replying to stefarm, 13, #51 of 841 🔗

I thought advice was if a person has symptoms to self isolate, not shut down whole towns (Aberdeen pop 207,932) for 20ish positive cases that are probably asymptomatic or false positive

78137 ▶▶ richard riewer, replying to stefarm, 5, #52 of 841 🔗

The problem is that they want ZERO, demand ZERO and will only desist if we reach ZERO. Fat chance.

78190 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to richard riewer, #53 of 841 🔗

And the worrying thing is that, whereas before it was a Scottish aberration, the English idiots have recently taken up the cry!

78208 ▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Cheezilla, 2, #54 of 841 🔗

And of course it will never be zero.

78671 ▶▶▶ Rowan, replying to richard riewer, 1, #55 of 841 🔗

As long as the PCR test keeps on producing a large number of false positives, which it does, then Covid-19 can never go away.

78638 ▶▶ TyLean, replying to stefarm, 3, #56 of 841 🔗

That would imply that this has something to do with a virus.

78645 ▶▶ karenovirus, replying to stefarm, 1, #57 of 841 🔗

Nicola proving she can be just as ‘ard as johnson

78067 court, replying to court, 39, #58 of 841 🔗

I drove to pick up a Tesco C+C today and waited in the car while my wife popped into Boots. I was horrified to see the amount of children masked up outside of shops. All sorts from ages 3-15, some with parents masked up some without. I’m just so angry to think of the damage being caused.

78069 ▶▶ watashi, replying to court, 19, #59 of 841 🔗

It`s awful. It should be classed as child abuse.

78673 ▶▶▶ Rowan, replying to watashi, #60 of 841 🔗

Not by thicko Boris and his bunch of toe rags.

78115 ▶▶ Paul, replying to court, 12, #61 of 841 🔗

I’ve seen a huge increase in the numbers of young children wearing masks in the past couple of days,the youngest being a little girl of about 3 years old in a pushchair,it really makes me angry,I think it proves that most people are so open minded their brains have fallen out.

78135 ▶▶▶ Felice, replying to Paul, 4, #62 of 841 🔗

I dread to think how many serious bronchial cases there will be this winter.

78194 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Felice, 6, #63 of 841 🔗

That’s the idea …..

78674 ▶▶▶▶ Rowan, replying to Felice, #64 of 841 🔗

That’s just what the government wants, all down to Covid-19, of course.

78193 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Paul, 2, #65 of 841 🔗

Unfortunately, they are likely stunting the mental development of their kids.

78299 ▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Cheezilla, 2, #66 of 841 🔗

With parents like those, they probably don’t have much mental to develop.

78296 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Paul, 5, #67 of 841 🔗

It’s virtue signalling.
Just as female circumcision is virtue signalling in certain communities.

78330 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Paul, 7, #68 of 841 🔗

I’ve been appalled at the photos of my nieces aged 5 and 3 both wearing muzzles but it seems like that’s the law where they are. Regardless its cruel and its depressing to see their lives seemingly slip away with no opportunities to go out and play with friends and even school is done via a computer screen.

The worst I saw was 2 year old in a buggy wearing a mask. To compound the child abuse, the dad who was also masked just gave her his mobile phone to keep her quiet rather than to talk and engage the old fashioned way.

I shudder to think what will happen to my nieces, that kid and actually all the children now when they grow up. They have been betrayed and screwed by their elders.

78291 ▶▶ Fruitbat, replying to court, 4, #69 of 841 🔗

Yes, it is deeply disturbing to see this. I have got myself into a discussion on Facebook about this. Parents are saying things like their kids are choosing to wear masks and that it ‘makes them feel safe’. Utter madness!

78354 ▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Fruitbat, 2, #70 of 841 🔗

Brainwashing the children. A crime against Humanity!

78356 ▶▶▶ Proudtobeapeasant, replying to Fruitbat, 3, #71 of 841 🔗

I can believe that. I tend to think that for some children and parents wearing a mask has somehow become trendy. I bet some children pester their parents to let them have one.

78648 ▶▶▶ karenovirus, replying to Fruitbat, 1, #72 of 841 🔗

I had one woman tell me her nieces liked wearing masks as it made them feel grown up, offs.

78518 ▶▶ Castendo, replying to court, 1, #73 of 841 🔗

I bet those parents took pics of them two, then in 15 years they can boast about how much woke they all were…

78068 Bob, replying to Bob, 13, #74 of 841 🔗


Businesses don’t have a choice about imposing social distancing and other Coronavirus measures.


Subject to consideration of health and safety risk assessments as mentioned below, businesses can choose to impose some, all possible or no social distancing measures at all.

They can offer dual service provision, directing those worried about Coronavirus to the left and those who are not to the right. They can charge higher prices to consumers who want social distancing and other Coronavirus ‘safety’ measures. They can offer lower prices and ‘fast passes’ and no queues for those who do not.

This is the common law position in England and Wales. It remains the law in England for the moment and unenforceable guidance won’t change that.

H&S risk assessments

The government and Health and Safety Executive (HSE) repeatedly emphasis that it is for individual businesses to assess risks danger in their business. The HSE Coronavirus risk assessment is purely about risk of transmission of the Coronavirus. It does not address the fundamental issue of danger. Risk of transmission of a common cold or flu virus may be high, but the risk of significant danger to the staff is extremely small.

It is open for a business to make its own assessment the risk of danger from Coronavirus in the business, taking into account exposure outside the business and balancing the dangers arising from measures the government guidance proposes. This is explained in more detail in our post Risk assessments: an important chink in the lockdown armour.


Risk assessments: an important chink in the lockdown armour

Health and safety obligations require social distancing measures to be imposed in the workplace and businesses generally.


Guidance is generally unenforceable but, as a matter of legal obligation, employers and controllers of premises are required to undertake evidence-based health and safety risk assessments. If there is no evidence of a significant danger, no mitigation is required.

In contrast to most of our posts (please read when done here), this is a reasonably long article. In summary, in respect of Covid-19:

78168 ▶▶ Sikboy, replying to Bob, 6, #75 of 841 🔗

They did this in our local Frankie & Benny’s last week with regard to choice over service. It worked well, it pleasingly also resulted in our party finding out the waitress was something of a sceptic.

It’s great not to be treated like a Leper!

78656 ▶▶ karenovirus, replying to Bob, 1, #76 of 841 🔗

Could this be why johnson abandoned his 50+ ban ?
Sounds like employers could do it for him if their assessment finds older staff are in more ‘danger’ from the Covid than younger. (Would also give them the chance to turf out old codgers).

78072 Suburbian, replying to Suburbian, 8, #77 of 841 🔗

Today I had a thought about ‘postcard from suburbia’. Yes there are the bed welters here…yes some people walk 10 meters away because the can’t count to two but also the school summer clubs are full, the tennis camp is full, the swim club has restarted with the majority of the kids returning. When school (eventually) opened for my year 1 child 75% of kids were there day 1. By the end it was 90%. So don’t believe mumsnet. Those parents who are busy never look at it anyway. We certainly wouldn’t go their for news or advice. I wish I could think the same of teachers and teachers unions

78314 ▶▶ stefarm, replying to Suburbian, 5, #78 of 841 🔗

Speaking to a colleague today she is tearing her hair at the thought of her little one not going back to school, she needs the peace and quiet and wants her child to have an education and as he is an only child is really missing his mates.

Perish the thought of kids having fun with their mates.

78073 Steve Martindale, replying to Steve Martindale, 14, #79 of 841 🔗

The Northern Lights of Aberdeen are what I long to see;
The Northern Lights of Aberdeen, that’s where I long to be.
I’ve been a wand’rer all of my life and many a sight I’ve seen.
God speed the day when I’m on my way to my home in Aberdeen.

Maybe not at the moment!

So Nicola S has had her way and put Aberdeen on the naughty step. One has to ask why, what are they trying to achieve?

  1. Are they going for total eradication of the virus? this would be arrogant deluded nonsense and would cost us very dear.
  2. Are they looking to contain the virus at a level we can live with? in which case what is the policy, what is the situation we can live with, what does successful containment look like?
  3. Or is this all posturing; If you can put parts of England on the naughty step I can do the same in Scotland.

I did used to have to do management appraisals (terrible job) but none of the UK administrations would do very well if they came up for appraisal with me. No clear objectives no proper and effective project management. Every indication of ‘headless chicken’ management.

78077 ▶▶ stefarm, replying to Steve Martindale, 9, #80 of 841 🔗
  1. possibly and impossible
  2. probably with local lockdowns at short notice to leave us all in fear
  3. She is an arsehole!
78100 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to stefarm, 9, #81 of 841 🔗

They know there’s no virus left, so it’s all posturing and fearmongering – ie control.

78166 ▶▶▶▶ kf99, replying to Cheezilla, 1, #82 of 841 🔗

A strongly pro-union area isn’t it?

78198 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to kf99, #83 of 841 🔗

Is that the problem? Clearly an example being set.

78175 ▶▶ JimByJovi, replying to Steve Martindale, 1, #84 of 841 🔗

Point 3 was my first thought. Sturgeon has gone out of her way to be seen to be applying more stringent restrictions than Westminster. Given the local lockdowns south of the border, this was probably only a matter of time.

78659 ▶▶ karenovirus, replying to Steve Martindale, #85 of 841 🔗

Covid is on its summer holidays but they don’t want to let us out of Lockdown mode.

78678 ▶▶▶ Rowan, replying to karenovirus, #86 of 841 🔗

Covid is always on holiday.

78074 Aremen, replying to Aremen, 15, #87 of 841 🔗

Some progress:

  1. The Daily Mail’s main headline, reported on the BBC website, was that more people have died as a result of lockdown from other diseases (or something like that – it’s vanished now!)
  2. The BBC’s news page reported that the UK death rate from Covid isn’t as high as was thought, followed by a summary of Oxford CEBM’s recent reports.

Also, see the latest from Oxford CEBM, which gives a breakdown of deaths by age group for week ending 27 July, plus the number of people in each age group corresponding to one death, which is very useful for those of you who want to show people how unlikely it is that they will die from Covid presently. For example: in the age group 45-64, 10 people died in that week, meaning there was approx one death per 1.5 million people in that age group. There are 22.4 million people aged 15-44 in the UK, and there were 3 deaths from Covid in that week, roughly giving a one in 7.5 million chance of dying.


I’ve found some stats with which to compare the Covid risk:
Drowning in the bath: 1 death per 685,000 people
Dying in a train crash: 1 death per 500,000 people
Falling out of bed: 1 death per 2 million people!
Dying from food poisoning: 1 death per 3 million people
Dying in a car crash: you have a 1 in 20,000 chance over the course of a year, and a 1 in 240 chance over your lifetime!
So we can tell those aged 15-44 that they are more than twice as likely to die from food poisoning than they are from Covid, and massively more likely to die in a car crash this year.

The Oxford report shows just how low the death rate has become and addresses the now familiar problem of mis-attribution of deaths to Covid. It ends with the killer statement: “The 167 registered deaths that occurred in week 30 do not match the Public Health England data, which reported 442 deaths in England alone for the week to the 24th of July. Given the inaccuracies in the PHE data set, it should be discontinued”.

78289 ▶▶ annie, replying to Aremen, 1, #88 of 841 🔗

Zombies are surely the likeliest to die falling out of bed.
Or stifling underneath it?

78075 DRW, replying to DRW, 9, #89 of 841 🔗

I enjoyed reading the Postcard from Lativa. The Nordics and Baltics seem very inviting compared to this rotten quagmire.

78111 ▶▶ Major Panic, replying to DRW, 1, #90 of 841 🔗

seems we were the few lucky ones

78076 WillemKoppenhol, replying to WillemKoppenhol, 21, #91 of 841 🔗

From 9AM today face masks have become mandatory in parts of Amsterdam

To see which parts please have a look at the map in this page: https://www.amsterdam.nl/en/coronavirus/more-about-face-masks-mandatory-parts/ That page shows the official map published by the city.

To give an idea of the “scale” of these three areas, I have created a map with some crude red lines on them, which I am including here in this comment. The red areas (with the black A, B and C) are the areas shown in yellow in the official map (A = top, B = left bottom, C = right bottom). The straight yellow line above the A is approx. 1 kilometre (=0.62 miles).

Effectively the A area consists of just a few streets plus the main Red Light area, in other words shopping and tourists. Oh, and prostitution of course. (Yes, they have been “open for business” since 1 July; no masks mandatory when using their “services”, only when going to their places of business.) Areas B and C are simply open air street markets.

According to several law professors this particular local ordinance (it is not a law) is effectively illegal, Dutch law does not allow a local city to make this type of decision. They say that this rule will therefore simply not be enforceable.

Which makes you wonder why Amsterdam did it…? The justification is of course that “the people want this”. Apparently especially tourists have “asked” for this, otherwise they feel unsafe, or so city officials claim. It is of course utter bs, only a few corona hypochondriacs want this, it is just for show.

I noticed when I wrote my bike through/past this area this morning (around 11AM) pretty much nobody cared about the masks, but who knows what might happen in the next few days?

78109 ▶▶ Mark, replying to WillemKoppenhol, 11, #92 of 841 🔗

It is of course utter bs, only a few corona hypochondriacs want this, it is just for show.

As usual, the squeaky wheel gets the oil. The basis for the disastrous dominance of minority lobbies, whether safety obsessive or political correctness-based, throughout the modern west.

78232 ▶▶▶ WillemKoppenhol, replying to Mark, 3, #93 of 841 🔗

That lobby seems to have started today .

Several newspapers and such are all of a sudden featuring articles from shopkeepers in Amsterdam (and Rotterdam, where they also have street level mandatory masks since today) who are saying variations on the theme of “this is unfair, it would be okay if it would be all over the country”.

78777 ▶▶▶▶ Andrew Fish, replying to WillemKoppenhol, #94 of 841 🔗

That’s like being sent to a firing squad and, rather than claiming you shouldn’t be shot, objecting to the fact that other people aren’t. We were hoping to go to Rotterdam for a short break away from muzzle madness, but I think we’re going to cancel now – it’s not worth paying money to go and be miserable somewhere else.

78834 ▶▶▶▶▶ WillemKoppenhol, replying to Andrew Fish, #95 of 841 🔗

For information on the Rotterdam situation see this page in Dutch: https://www.rotterdam.nl/nieuws/mondkapjesplicht/

Oddly enough I couldn’t find proper English information, but Google Translate is quite accurate these days: https://translate.google.nl/translate?sl=nl&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rotterdam.nl%2Fnieuws%2Fmondkapjesplicht%2F

78675 ▶▶ karenovirus, replying to WillemKoppenhol, #96 of 841 🔗

The near vertical red line (A) seems to be the Damrak, Amsterdams pedestrianised Oxford St.
The suitably penis shaped red marking to the right is about 30% of the tourist red light district (locals go elsewhere).

Area (B) appears to be one of Amsterdams drearily overmanaged modern suburbs.

Never been to (C).

78078 Poppy, replying to Poppy, 98, #97 of 841 🔗

Saw the news of the Aberdeen local lockdown earlier and just thought ‘Give me strength’. Genuinely, I need strength to keep buggering on through this perpetual nightmare. I knew in my bones that Johnson never meant ‘just 3 weeks to flatten the curve’, but I never thought it would go on for this long. Really, I didn’t. Now is a time that will really test our inner strength. The government can take away all the extrinsic things that make life worth living – pubs, restaurants, social events, education and jobs – but they can never take away intrinsic human spirit. Draw upon the most basic things that you have right now, because we will need them in the long fight ahead.

I just can’t articulate the seething hatred, contempt, and disgust I have for the people making these decisions. There are no words strong enough, and I consider myself a decent wordsmith. They are true psychopaths. Ruining millions of lives and jobs for no reason and then insidiously lying about it, saying it’s for our ‘safety’, narcissistically portraying themselves as the saviours of humanity. Their actions cannot be rationalised in normal human ways because these people lack empathy.

Every day I see my previously happy and optimistic boyfriend grow more and more depressed and the vitality fade from his soul as he grapples with the gnawing and self esteem-destroying aimlessness of being unable to find a part-time job, let alone a graduate job, all the while knowing that in September he will be returning to a university life devoid of what made it fun and fulfilling – events cancelled or seriously restricted, alongside meaningless placebo social restrictions in his halls of residence such as ‘social bubbles’. Btw he is not doing a ‘mickey mouse’ degree, he is at a top UK uni doing a very good course so if he’s worried, then we’re all f***ed. I know there are so many people in the same position as him and worse. My bf means the world to me and I would go to the ends of the earth for him so mark my words, if it takes my whole life, I will ensure the bastards that have done this to him and millions others will be brought to justice. I am lucky enough to have a current part-time job and a future graduate job but I worry both could disappear as the government needlessly smashes the economy with the wrecking ball of incompetence and spinelessness.

The only thing getting me through this this purgatory of no end where the iron fist of government can smash down on us by fiat, is KNOWING in my gut that we will be proven right and these lowlives will get the punishment they so richly deserve. The truth will out, no matter how long it takes. They are running scared but they’re on borrowed time.

78129 ▶▶ DRW, replying to Poppy, 4, #98 of 841 🔗

Similar thing getting me through this Poppy. I wish I could share your optimism though.

78682 ▶▶▶ Rowan, replying to DRW, 2, #99 of 841 🔗

Poppy is indeed, a gifted wordsmith, but her optimism appears misplaced. This is a fight to to the death, as they clearly want all of us dead. The gloves have to come off.

78132 ▶▶ TJN, replying to Poppy, 11, #100 of 841 🔗

‘Hope springs eternal in the human breast.’ Alexander Pope, An Essay on Man , 1733-4.

Of course we will eventually win through this, and be stronger for the experience. Our enemies are nothing like as strong as they might appear to some. The clock is ticking down on this nonsense.

78146 ▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Poppy, 9, #101 of 841 🔗

Nicola appears to have the brain capacity of a sturgeon.

78683 ▶▶▶ Rowan, replying to richard riewer, 1, #102 of 841 🔗

That’s an insult to sturgeons, hackneyed but true.

78182 ▶▶ kf99, replying to Poppy, 1, #103 of 841 🔗

If you take a friend along
Take me in his place
Every piece of shit I own
We’ll pack into my case

Tho the northern lights
May have claimed her as their own
I could move to Aberdeen
Make the place my home
Not the finest place I’ve been
But I’ll make the place
Make the place my home

Aberdeen by Danny Wilson (1987)

78189 ▶▶ Emma, replying to Poppy, 8, #104 of 841 🔗

Poppy do you think there is any point in contacting the Office for Students? I wonder if there may be some sort of challenge to what universities are doing in terms of stripping out all the social aspects of university, making people form ‘bubbles’, putting clubs etc online? Isn’t the OfS supposed to be partly there to ensure students get value for money, and consumer protection? If the university offer is very different to what one signed up for (and accepting a place at university is a contract), surely that can be challenged? The university must have a student’s welfare at its core, and that includes mental health and the opportunity to make important social connections, as well as protecting people from the virus?

78320 ▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to Emma, 8, #105 of 841 🔗

That’s exactly what I thought, but university bureaucracy is just the most sclerotic thing ever to exist so we’d never get anywhere and my bf says that the university may well be terrified of getting sued by some zealot for not implementing anti-covid measures (under which action though I am not sure). I imagine if one did contact the OfS one would get some boilerplate bullshit reply about how ‘necessary’ the restrictions are ‘during this unprecedented time’ to keep everyone ‘safe’.

78331 ▶▶▶▶ Emma, replying to Poppy, 7, #106 of 841 🔗

How I wish Toby had not been hounded from his position on the board. I’ve got two young people starting at uni this autumn, one quite sanguine about the prospect, the other utterly devastated. If you feel like combining forces to launch some sort of official objection to the nonsense measures universities are proposing to implement, which go way beyond government ‘guidance’ even, I’d be up for that. I feel like I need to try, even if only to register some resistance. I’m beyond furious about it.

78497 ▶▶▶▶▶ JulieR, replying to Emma, 3, #107 of 841 🔗

Online tuition was rubbish. My daughter is in one of the best universities and got none. No guidance for online exams either.
Students should protest and demand universities to open properly.

78531 ▶▶▶▶ Toby Young, replying to Poppy, 7, #108 of 841 🔗

The person to lodge a complaint with would be the Higher Education Ombudsman, not the OfS. Marginally more likely to be taken seriously, although it probably won’t be.

78227 ▶▶ Biggles, replying to Poppy, 9, #109 of 841 🔗

Poppy, I always enjoy reading your posts. Don’t worry, we will win and as you say the truth always comes out. It may take a while but the Sheeple will eventually see that they have been played and once opinion turns, those who have made our lives a misery in the last few months will be made to pay.

78344 ▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Biggles, 2, #110 of 841 🔗

Optimistic but I like it. You’ll have to get the army onside first however

78286 ▶▶ annie, replying to Poppy, 6, #111 of 841 🔗

Yes, it’s a long ordeal, but it WILL end.
Your gut is right, Poppy.
Keep the faith, burn the gob nappies, live life, be sure we will win.

78301 ▶▶ Ned of the Hills, replying to Poppy, 11, #112 of 841 🔗

>>>>I just can’t articulate the seething hatred, contempt, and disgust I have for the people making these decisions. <<<

It irks me that the people making Covid restrictions aren’t much restricted by them themselves. When are you likely to see one of them on a bus or shopping in a supermarket?

78339 ▶▶ Bella, replying to Poppy, 2, #113 of 841 🔗

Forget justice, I think you need to draw up a list of those for summary Dalek extermination. Have they served justice on you?l

78341 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Poppy, 4, #114 of 841 🔗

Another excellent post Poppy and I know how you feel. We have to keep on fighting.

78490 ▶▶ JulieR, replying to Poppy, 9, #115 of 841 🔗

You understand it well, Poppy.
But when I speak to my student daughter and her friends they are not angry about the current situation. They accept that the government made mistakes but they are accepting all the restrictions, masks. They don’t question decisions. They went to protest for Floyd but laugh at me when I say I am going to protest for our freedoms.
I am trying to make my daughter think critically and send her links with information.
I wonder when young people will realise that they are impacted the most and protest about online universities, no jobs and no futures.

78625 ▶▶▶ Quernus, replying to JulieR, 11, #116 of 841 🔗

I totally agree, JulieR. My husband’s two adult girls (23 and 19) won’t question what’s going on, and although they seem to agree that wearing masks won’t do anything, they don’t want to be seen as ‘different’ so wear them anyway (colour coordinated ones, natch). The apathy is staggering. We can’t discuss the situation in front of them because it makes them uncomfortable that we’re questioning what’s going on. This is their future that we’re trying to protect, but they don’t seem that bothered by what’s happening, and certainly aren’t looking ahead to how this will affect them. But then, they’ve grown up surgically attached to their smart phones, and i do believe the government has waged a long war priming the population to blindly accept what they’re told, and to be lazy thinkers who want instant gratification and an easy life…

78079 stefarm, replying to stefarm, 5, #117 of 841 🔗

If someone does have ‘it’ or the flu what are the chances of passing it on. I get the impression that that part of the fear is that if you have ‘it’ you will pass it to x people who will then pass it on to y people thus spreading it to hundreds, thousands, millions of people.

78196 ▶▶ Dave, replying to stefarm, 2, #118 of 841 🔗

Depending On who/what you read, anywhere from 1 in 40 Upwards of those who have “it” will pass it to someone else.

Even in the apparently plague ridden north the govs latest made up numbers are 40/100000 people.

You would have to be amazingly unlucky to find anyone with “it” let alone catch it off them.

78623 ▶▶ rational actor, replying to stefarm, 3, #119 of 841 🔗

I think I’ve actually had it twice, not that any of our Stateside Healthcare Heroes were interested in my plight. On both occasions it was unpleasant like the flu, but I am otherwise a healty 50+ woman and recovered completely.

The doctor I saw during Round 2 told me to get plenty of fluids and rest and refused me a test despite my displaying most of the symptoms and living with a genuinely high-risk person. That’s fine, but ‘Deadly Killer Virus!’ and ‘Go home and sleep it off’ don’t go together. Also, despite my friends and family paying no attention to social distancing, I am the only person we know who has been ill. If you really do have health problems, staying home is likely to be the best choice. Masks really are of limited value, and my view is that they are just a petri dish on your face. Unless you are elderly and/or ill, it’s bullshit.

78684 ▶▶▶ Rowan, replying to rational actor, 1, #120 of 841 🔗

So how do you know it wasn’t just flu.

78081 Nick Rose, replying to Nick Rose, 22, #121 of 841 🔗

Well if the government is going to prevent me from going to work because of (their) view on who is of a “high Covid age”, who is going to pay me? How do I eat?

Oh I know, you get looked after in prison, so looks like I’ll have to become a career criminal (either a very good one who makes lots of money from crime, or a very bad one who gets caught and sent to gaol).

Well done, cretinous government.

78096 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Nick Rose, 5, #122 of 841 🔗

It looks like a different take on the shield the over-50s gambit!

78102 ▶▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to Cheezilla, 6, #123 of 841 🔗

Even worse really. It’s like a ban on working just because. Needless to say, I hope this doesn’t happen, but I’ll have to wait and see.

And try to keep calm.

Better go for a walk.

See you guys later :o))

78681 ▶▶▶▶ karenovirus, replying to Nick Rose, 1, #124 of 841 🔗

Good way to disguise the coming tsunami of unemployment if all the oldies are locked out.

78685 ▶▶▶▶▶ Rowan, replying to karenovirus, 1, #125 of 841 🔗

Too big to hard.

78870 ▶▶▶▶▶ kf99, replying to karenovirus, 1, #126 of 841 🔗

Agreed, high covid age will lead to “early retirement” rather than the dole.

78173 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to Nick Rose, 6, #127 of 841 🔗

The funniest thing about this is how they’re going to assign ‘covid age’.

Not the method. The actual practical process.

Until an in person assessment of your physical condition can be performed (I. E. Never in current circumstances) the only factors they have to go on are age and medical records. So exactly the same as they have to go on now.

Major Dumb.

78319 ▶▶ stefarm, replying to Nick Rose, 1, #128 of 841 🔗

Will this include half of parliament and the house of lords, full of old dinosaurs

78351 ▶▶▶ Bella, replying to stefarm, 1, #129 of 841 🔗

No, they’ll have to turn up, in their masks, to claim their £300 quid attendance. Or maybe they can do it on Zoom

78525 ▶▶▶ Castendo, replying to stefarm, 1, #130 of 841 🔗

and Boris bro no?

78082 Awkward Git, 2, #131 of 841 🔗

The whole video is 17 mins, not the 30 seconds on Twitter:


78083 Basics, replying to Basics, 4, #132 of 841 🔗

NRS figures do not match Scottish Government daily figures.

For nearly three weeks Scottish Government had been reporting zero ‘covid19 deaths’ those dying with Covid19. Now we learn there have been deaths during the time we previoysly were led to believe tgeir hadn’t.

From guardian live feed:

Seven more people die in Scotland
According to the National Records of Scotland (NRS), seven deaths were registered that mentioned Covid-19 on the death certificate between Monday 27 July and Sunday 2 August; a decrease of one from the previous week.

The NRS said that was the second lowest weekly total for deaths since the first death was recorded in early March.

A total of 4,208 deaths have been registered in Scotland, as of 2 August, of which 46% were related to deaths in care homes, 46% in hospitals and 7% at home or in non-institutional settings, the NRS said.

To place these figures in context, the latest yearly totals show that, in 2018 24% of all deaths occurred in care homes, 49% in hospitals and 27% in home or non-institutional settings.

Pete Whitehouse, the NRS’s director of statistical services, said:

Loss of life from this virus is tragic and every death represents loss and heartbreak for families throughout the country.

Today’s figures show seven more deaths due to Covid-19, showing a similar level for three consecutive weeks. These figures are significantly lower than the peak week in mid-April when 661 Covid-19 related deaths were registered.

Monitoring the progress of this virus is important and National Records of Scotland will continue to work with Scottish government and Health Protection Scotland (HPS) to understand its impact in Scotland.

The scottish government daily figures are here:

The scit gov figures now show 5 Aug:
Deaths: week ending 2 August: 7 COVID-19 deaths were registered, of which 2 were in care homes and 4 in hospital.

When Sturgeon says something to the nation simply expect that it is wrong and do not trust.

78149 ▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Basics, 6, #133 of 841 🔗

seven deaths were registered that mentioned Covid-19 on the death certificate

78162 ▶▶▶ Tenchy, replying to richard riewer, 1, #134 of 841 🔗


78084 Awkward Git, 4, #135 of 841 🔗


More and more tests required to find a true positive test

78085 Awkward Git, replying to Awkward Git, 1, #136 of 841 🔗

Was mooching the internet while workmen in this morning (all sceptics). Got bored so rooted through the comments section on the Off-Guardian articles:

Here is the spike in English deaths of 15-44 year olds:


In the comments is a link to this article:


Explains everything doesn’t it?

78101 ▶▶ Polemon2, replying to Awkward Git, 8, #137 of 841 🔗

Any doctor issuing a DNR letter without the knowledge and consent of the person concerned should be struck off.

78110 ▶▶▶ IMoz, replying to Polemon2, 8, #138 of 841 🔗

Erm I’d say prosecuted for attempted murder…

78114 ▶▶▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to IMoz, 2, #139 of 841 🔗

Did you see the video on FB from the healthcare worker?


78180 ▶▶▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Dave #KBF, 1, #140 of 841 🔗

Listened to the whole 17 minutes, pretty harrowing and I’ve heard anecdotal examples very similar one rtes months but we need more to come forward like this.

78229 ▶▶ Alison9, replying to Awkward Git, 2, #141 of 841 🔗

Sadly, yes it does … eugenics in action.

78087 Fiat, 9, #142 of 841 🔗

Been reading Michael Shellenberger’s new book, Apocalypse Never”, or “Why Environmental Alarmism Hurts Us All”. Although it’s obviously not about Covid 19, this passage from the chapter on nuclear power is relevant:
“About 150,000 people were evacuated [from the Fukushima prefecture following the tsunami in 2011] but more than 20,000 have yet to be allowed home. While some amount of temporary evacuation might have been justified, there was simply never any reason for such a large and long-term evacuation. More than one thousand people died from the evacuation, while others who were displaced suffered from alcoholism, depression, post-traumatic stress, and anxiety.”

78089 Jack, replying to Jack, 24, #143 of 841 🔗

Encouraging push-back from some doctors around the world:


“This is a world dictatorship with a sanitary excuse,” was stressed at the end of the meeting. Doctors agreed that:

  • Coronavirus victims did not outnumber last year’s seasonal flu deaths.
  • Figures were exaggerated by altering medical protocols.
  • The confinement of the healthy and the forced use of masks have no scientific basis.
  • The disease known as Covid-19 does not have a single infectious pattern, but a combination of them.

Valdepeñas concluded his final intervention asking the press for “an effort of responsibility that we have not seen so far”, and criticized the “continuous bombardment of information on the pandemic, without weighing neither the quantity nor the quality of the information”. The doctor indicated that when the media talk about “new outbreaks”, they should clarify that these are only positive tests, but that 98 percent [of the population] are “healthy, asymptomatic people.”

78093 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Jack, 5, #144 of 841 🔗

The comments are awesome!

78099 ▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to Jack, 8, #145 of 841 🔗

We need groups of doctors / medical professionals to come together, in a similar way, in each county.

Please honour your hippocratic oath.

78211 ▶▶▶ Two-Six, replying to Dave #KBF, 5, #146 of 841 🔗

Yeah we REALLY DO! Come on doctors, grow a pair and stand up! Stop worrying about loosing your immense pay package. What’s the point of having loads of cash if the world you and your family live in is an Orwellian hell on earth.

78260 ▶▶ guy153, replying to Jack, 3, #147 of 841 🔗

I was with him until he mentioned 5G and influenza vaccines…

78095 theelrushbo, 1, #148 of 841 🔗

I wonder if anyone has done a study on current HCQ patients (prior to Covid19 exposure and on the drug for RA or lupus etc) and whether they have tested positive and if yes, severity of symptoms… just curious… asking for a friend…

78097 JohnH, replying to JohnH, 1, #149 of 841 🔗

Here’s a Freedom of Information request idea for Scotland: it would be useful to know what instructions were given by Sturge Un’s government once she recovered from her crocodile tears over young people gathering in Aberdonian pubs. Presumably that behaviour had to be punished by ramping up testing to find enough “cases” to justify the new lockdown

78202 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to JohnH, 2, #150 of 841 🔗

What’s the betting there are no written records?

78249 ▶▶▶ JohnH, replying to Cheezilla, 1, #151 of 841 🔗

Good point – but even if there are it will be justified by the “huge concern” over the gathering of people in pubs which “obviously needs to be followed up by extensive testing to KEEP SAFE

78871 ▶▶▶▶ kf99, replying to JohnH, #152 of 841 🔗

Couldn’t MI5 bug these un-minuted meetings though? Seems easy enough in “Spooks”

78372 ▶▶ richard riewer, replying to JohnH, #153 of 841 🔗

That sounds about right.

78098 Polemon2, replying to Polemon2, 4, #154 of 841 🔗

Thanks for those “workplace” articles. I ad started to ponder the huge variations between retail premises’ interpretation of “safe”. For example, two local Italian restaurants- one just the same as it always was – the other the same except for one table re-oriented. Elsewhere one way: masks; plastic screens, holy hand wash, etc.
I suspect it is not just the Health & Safety gestapo and lawyers, the insurance companies are probably putting pressure on as well.
However if the perception is that only this approach will persuade the “sheeple” that it is safe to work, sell and buy, then I fear that this will all be with us forever.
I cannot imagine any scenario where the politicians and media are prepared to say that there is no longer any risk (e.g. Sturgeon wanting to “eradicate” the virus).
Most people seem unable to understand what levels of risk are.They want 100% safety but, as we know, that is not real life so it will never end and eventually those who do not cooperate with the system will have to be punished.
Logic can never defeat a belief system (just ask the Pope).

78155 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Polemon2, #155 of 841 🔗

Logic can never defeat a belief system (just ask the Pope).” Well, the church’s influence has waned and partly been replaced by science (by rational, actual science rather than the pseudoscience driving the coronapanic). In the same way, one would hope that in time, people will see that logic (the virus isn’t that dangerous) leads to a more pleasing result (freedom from fear, economy not screwed) than blind belief in it.

78204 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Julian, 1, #156 of 841 🔗

Unfortunately they’re applying logic based on false premisses, obligingly supplied by the beeb et al.

78362 ▶▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Cheezilla, #157 of 841 🔗

Auntie Beeb’s a dweeb.

78686 ▶▶ karenovirus, replying to Polemon2, #158 of 841 🔗

The insurance companies will be one of the reasons firms are not keen to repopulate their offices. The only way out might be to give them an indemnity against ‘because Covid ‘ prosecutions but that would require the government to admit that the virus was not such a big deal after all.

78103 Edgar Friendly, replying to Edgar Friendly, -3, #159 of 841 🔗

‘Ode to a Grecian Earn’?

Toby, your spelling is appalling.

On the 3rd you also wrote ‘bear’ instead of ‘bare’ in the subtitle ‘New Report Lays Bear Extent […]’.

78121 ▶▶ Sam Vimes, replying to Edgar Friendly, 6, #160 of 841 🔗

Obviously confused with “What’s a Grecian Urn? “About 25 bob a week”. Easily done.

78231 ▶▶▶ Alison9, replying to Sam Vimes, 1, #161 of 841 🔗

I needed a laugh, thank you.

78306 ▶▶▶▶ Sam Vimes, replying to Alison9, 2, #162 of 841 🔗

I’m here all lockdown, don’t forget to tip your ‘scientist’.

78104 Joseph Collins, replying to Joseph Collins, 23, #163 of 841 🔗

I queued to get in to Natwest bank today. When it was my turn to go in the Natwest staffer asked the usual what do you want question and then asked where my mask was. After telling him I’m exempt he then told me I could not come in until the branch had been cleared . I kid you not. He then scurried away and five minutes later another staffer came out to let me in. All I needed was the machine to pay in a cheque. We exchanged a few words about the insanity of it all and I pointed out that 3 three doors down there was a packed coffee shop with no mask wearers and a restaurant directly opposite with the same but he wanted me out as quickly as possible. Madness and all for what?

78106 ▶▶ Tenchy, replying to Joseph Collins, 1, #164 of 841 🔗

What’s a staffer?

78119 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Tenchy, 2, #165 of 841 🔗

One who staffs,

78124 ▶▶▶▶ Tenchy, replying to Mark, 1, #166 of 841 🔗

Thank you. One must always call out Americanisms.

78133 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Tenchy, #167 of 841 🔗

Fair point.

78875 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ kf99, replying to Mark, #168 of 841 🔗

Although it’s fascinating how some Americanisms are more like how we spoke here in the 17th century – we changed, they didn’t. Not all of course.

78147 ▶▶▶ Joseph Collins, replying to Tenchy, #169 of 841 🔗

I’d have thought it obvious given the context.

78158 ▶▶▶▶ Tenchy, replying to Joseph Collins, 2, #170 of 841 🔗

Sorry, I’m just being argumentative. I can’t help it when I see American usage taking over.

78275 ▶▶▶ mjr, replying to Tenchy, 3, #171 of 841 🔗

Someone from Stoke.

78203 ▶▶ Lockdown_Lunacy, replying to Joseph Collins, 7, #172 of 841 🔗

That’s crazy, but if a few of us attended a branch at 10 minute intervals we could cause a lot of inconvenience!

78689 ▶▶ karenovirus, replying to Joseph Collins, 1, #173 of 841 🔗

You could be describing my local shopping precinct, queues outside the banks in the drizzle, all holding their masks, nearby bakery/cafe full of facially naked customers.
But it is fun using the ATM as the queue slinks away either side like a cut up worm.

78105 nat, replying to nat, 4, #174 of 841 🔗

Here is a government sponsored article from the Daily Mail, about “staying safe as we get back to much needed normality.” The picture really helps to drive home the point. If normal is looking like you are de – activating a nuclear bomb.


78113 ▶▶ Polemon2, replying to nat, 6, #175 of 841 🔗

What a wonderful world we live in, all those fulfilled. happy workers in the NHS. It .just fills my heart with an overwhelming feeling of thankfulness We really must start clappnig again.

78156 ▶▶▶ Tenchy, replying to Polemon2, 1, #176 of 841 🔗

Daily Mail not allowing comments on that article. I wonder why not?

78288 ▶▶▶▶ ConstantBees, replying to Tenchy, 1, #177 of 841 🔗

The government learned their lesson after the Let’s Get Back video. It took them almost 12 hours to turn the comments off under that piece of s****. They still haven’t turned off the Like/Dislike buttons, which are 28 Like/92 Dislike. But then the damn thing only has about 6,000 views anyway.

At least the DM allows comments on most of their articles. I’m a left-winger but abandoned the Guardian since their commenters didn’t take kindly to someone talking about the costs of lockdown. Now the Guardian only has open comments on perhaps one coronavirus article at a time.

78382 ▶▶▶▶▶ Basics, replying to ConstantBees, #178 of 841 🔗

Thanks for reporting on this. It’s the details I find say so much. Published with comments – to harvest opinion. Then turned off. With likes enabled – further harvesting but not a spreading point for thoughts of dissent.

78159 ▶▶ richard riewer, replying to nat, 3, #179 of 841 🔗

Hazmat suits for everybody. Ils sont vraiment chic!

78206 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to nat, 1, #180 of 841 🔗

Warning: Have a sick bucket ready before opening the above!

78235 ▶▶ Alison9, replying to nat, #181 of 841 🔗

“Sponsored by the UK government’ ’nuff said.

78271 ▶▶ Jonathan Palmer, replying to nat, 1, #182 of 841 🔗

That was july31.Their headline today was much more encouraging.’The real health cost of lockdown ‘ goes on to say that only 2% of deaths are due to Covid and there is a huge backlog of other diseases waiting to be treated.The editorial says we all need to get back to work and school.All stuff we have known from April but coming from the mail,which has been one of the chief Covid doomongers,it is encouraging

78112 guy153, replying to guy153, 14, #183 of 841 🔗

Positive results are indicative of active infection with 2019-nCoV but do not rule out bacterial infection or co-infection with other viruses .”

That does not mean that other bacteria or viruses will cause a positive test. This is a myth. The PCR test does have a (low) false positive rate but it’s not because of other bacteria or viruses.

It just means that if you’re a doctor and you find someone has SARS2, don’t assume that that’s what’s what making them ill. They might also have a bacterial infection and need antibiotics.

But doctors do need to be aware of the consequences of Bayes theorem. Suppose the test is 99.5% specific and 70% sensitive. These are not unreasonable numbers and that would be considered by most a very good test kit (with “85% accuracy”).

At the height of the epidemic, maybe 20% of people will actually have SARS2. In that case if you test positive, your chances of having a real infection are 97%. If you test negative your chances of having a real infection are still 7% (because of the relatively low sensitivity of the test).

This is fairly intuitive, but it does mean in a country like New Zealand it’s no good relying on PCR testing to decide whom to quarantine– a few false negatives will slip through the net if prevalence is high outside NZ.

But now, in the UK, when the prevalence is about 0.05% (according to the ONS), assuming the same test kit accuracy (which is a generous assessment of Pillar 2 testing), what are your chances?

The probability of having a real infection is now only 6.55% if you test positive ! This is actually less than it was if you tested negative at the height of the epidemic. If you test negative, your chances of having Covid are 0.02%. Intuition has gone out of the window– the false positives overwhelm the true positives (even though the false positive rate is low) and the test is virtually useless. All it does it tell you whether you are extremely unlikely to have Covid (a positive result) or exceedingly unlikely to have Covid (a negative result).

There is a nice graphical Bayes Theorem calculator here (although it doesn’t allow you to input fractions and appears to do some intermediate rounding):


The actual formula and explanation can be found on Wiki:


The PCR test is very good at what it does: finding RNA. If it’s positive, and the cycle threshold was reasonable, the only sources of error are contamination and human error. It found the RNA.

The RNA did not necessarily come from a complete virus particle, so you will still find it in the recently-recovered, and you never know for sure whether that virus is causing a particular disease– that’s a matter for a doctor to diagnose by looking at the big picture.

But in spite of being a good test, the sheer power of Bayes Theorem makes it almost completely useless (especially Pillar 2) in the UK right now, because the prevalence is so low. It’s not because it’s a defective test. It’s a very good test. At what it does.

78123 ▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to guy153, 7, #184 of 841 🔗

Exactly – they are not using it as it should be used but to meet their agenda.

78128 ▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Awkward Git, 4, #185 of 841 🔗

You can tell that also because they don’t even bother with looking at the positive ratio (which doesn’t change, because it’s just noise, because they’re false positives) but apparently base decisions on absolute numbers of positives. Even the government can’t be that stupid.

It turns out that the ONS testing (the ONS are much less clueless) can be used to calibrate the Pillar 2 testing. Pillar 2 are finding ten or more times the prevalence that the ONS are. Yes there’s some selection bias in Pillar 2 but not that much.

The Pillar 2 results are junk, the ONS ones probably reasonable (but also treat with caution). The only rational conclusion is that Covid exists in the UK at low levels and seems to be pretty stable.

78136 ▶▶▶▶ Tenchy, replying to guy153, 1, #186 of 841 🔗

In New Zealand they have the odd positive or two still popping up from day to day. I wondered where these are coming from. Is your explanation the probable reason for it?

78233 ▶▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Tenchy, 1, #187 of 841 🔗

Quite possibly. But it could also be that they do actually have a few real infections smouldering away. You need some threshold level for the epidemic to catch fire and burst into life. This is why they’re probably doomed.

78154 ▶▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to guy153, 1, #188 of 841 🔗

Sorry to disagree but the Government can be that stupid.

78210 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Awkward Git, 2, #189 of 841 🔗

It’s deliberate stupidity though.

78130 ▶▶ Tenchy, replying to guy153, 3, #190 of 841 🔗

Good explanation. Thanks. I’m waiting for Peston or Kuenssberg to put this analysis (in a simplified form, of course) to the likes of Lt. Gruber.

78142 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Tenchy, 3, #191 of 841 🔗

Tweet this to Deborah Cohen?

78181 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to Tenchy, 2, #192 of 841 🔗

I hope you’re not holding your breath while you’re waiting. That could be dangerous.

78144 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to guy153, #193 of 841 🔗

“and the cycle threshold was reasonable”

Can you elaborate on that? It seems to contradict your statement “It found the RNA” because it depends on some adjustable threshold.

Does the test produce zero output when the RNA is not present? If so, why do you need to set a “reasonable” threshold? If not, where does that output come from?

78213 ▶▶▶ IMoz, replying to Barney McGrew, 4, #194 of 841 🔗

Ct just means that you need to reach the necessary fluorecence threshold (detectable over background/negative control) within the required number of cycles, the more cycles you do the more likely you are to reach the necessary flourecence threshold (so long as you’re in the exponential phase of the PCR (still plenty of reagent left)).

It also depends if you’re using cybergreen (which latches onto any double-stranded DNA) or specific fluorophore probe but that depends on what gene you’re tagging with (for example, RdRp (IP2 or IP4), N1, N2, N3, or E (but that can show SARS-CoV), and there’s a bunch of others). Of course, different countries are using different probes… When the primer/probe gets incorporated into the transcription, polymirase chops off fluorophore allowing it to be free of quencher on the end of the probe, the fluorophore glows. The glow is measured, and you compare that glow to the fluorecence threshold, after a pre-determined number of cycles (Ct); obviously you’ll have fewer loose fluorophores after one cycle than ten cycles, for example.

In short, the whole (q)RT-PCR is just one giant mess! With `q’ you can quantify how much you had to begin with, with plain RT-PCR you just get a yes/no-kind of answer.

Incidentally, technically, you don’t actually “find” RNA, all you can say for certain is that the a number of fluorophores was released from their probes, and then you infer backward that the RNA was present.

This is not the test that is shown against a DNA ladder in a gel like is shown in crime films/series.

I tried to condence a lot of technical stuff into a short post, so probably missed something.

78225 ▶▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to IMoz, 1, #195 of 841 🔗

Many thanks. What I’m driving at is that the test produces ‘some’ output even when the gene/RNA is not present..? If that isn’t the case, you could reasonably keep going as long as you wanted, and if there was *any* present you could presumably say it was ‘positive’. But if it’s a lot fuzzier than that, obviously you set a threshold. But this means that there are ‘marginal’ tests where you don’t get a full output, and nor do you get zero, and presumably this is where the false positives and negatives come in. I can see that you can set the threshold to give you the balance you want between false positives and negatives given ‘average’ samples, but presumably sticking a swab up someone’s nose isn’t a fine science..?

You mention quantity. So is the test responding to absolute amount of the gene/RNA, or ‘concentration’, or something else?

78323 ▶▶▶▶▶ IMoz, replying to Barney McGrew, 2, #196 of 841 🔗

You actually have a problem going the other way—you might have too few pieces of analyte samples to start the reaction—below Level of Detection (LoD).

But then again, if you have fluorecence all you know for certain is that you have free fluorophores, that’s all. Then you have a bigger problem: if you haven’t purified the virus and have a reference curve, what do you base your fluorecence threshold and cycle threshold on, perhaps a whim?..

On top of that, even if you extrapolate back and say “ok, free fluorophores mean the correct RNA” you can’t tell whether it’s what’s making the patient sick (the CDC caution), or whether that RNA came from active virus in the first place, or whether that’s actually RNA and not RNA fragments!

Incidentally, when PCR tests for MERS-CoV and H7N9 were being devoloped, those tests were “presumptive,” somehow between then and SARS-CoV-2, PCR tests have become “confirmatory”—wtf?!

78793 ▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Barney McGrew, #197 of 841 🔗

I think there is some possibility of the primers themselves getting amplified at huge cycle counts but I’m not sure about this– they have clever ways of mitigating it. It depends on the exact design of the test apparatus.

The primers encode the genomic sequences that you’re looking for and the idea is that if they match on the DNA that’s in there (you convert the RNA to DNA first) the amount of them gets doubled every cycle.

Basically it’s a trade-off. If you set the threshold very low the test will work but be less sensitive– you will need a larger amount of virus in there to start with for it to work. If you set the threshold really high it just gets ridiculous. If you have contamination it’s likely to be at much lower levels than what you’d find in a real positive sample. It’s a bit like turning the volume up on your hifi with no music playing. At some point some random background hiss will actually get rather loud– but if there was real music in there it would be deafening you.

I do wonder if the Pillar 2 tests are using a different cycle threshold to the ONS. But it would just be speculation. The data seem to indicate they are getting a lot more false positives. I also don’t know if they publish their asymptomatic ratio anywhere– if that’s much higher than the ONS that would pretty much prove they have more false positives. The only legitimate reason why they might find more prevalence would be selection bias– i.e. more symptomatic people turning up.

78176 ▶▶ IMoz, replying to guy153, 1, #198 of 841 🔗

I’ve got a sneaky suspicion that Pillar 2 is RT-PCR and not qRT-PCR…

78237 ▶▶▶ guy153, replying to IMoz, #199 of 841 🔗

I think they’re all just the “qualitative” yes/no with a cycle threshold of about 37 or so. But it would be good to know more details. Also what the differences are between the ONS and the Pillar 2 kits.

Isn’t “quantitative” where you use the cycle count you needed to find anything to estimate how much virus is actually there? This is generally considered a bit sketchy at best I think.

78317 ▶▶▶▶ IMoz, replying to guy153, #200 of 841 🔗

I think it’s done using same machines but when you set Ct it’s not quantification (unless you quantify with “enough”), in qPCR-proper, you have you Cq_1, Cq_2, .., Cq_N then you extrapolate your quantity.

But given that SARS-CoV-2 still hasn’t been purified (has it?) how do you know what your reference curve looks like, and from the same premise, what did you base your fluorecence threshold on? The latter is more interesting!

78184 ▶▶ Sikboy, replying to guy153, 4, #201 of 841 🔗

I’ve making this exact point for weeks regarding Bayes Theorem, despite the fact I’m actually a professional mathematician myself, people still think I’m sharing an opinion.

The numbers we feed in might be up for debate, but it’s a bloody theorem and sadly our education system seems incapable of teaching this basic fact.

Regarding the communication of this pretty devastating thesis, I find it pretty tough to communicate this with otherwise intelligent people. Lord knows how the simpleton talking heads in the MSM would cope.

78246 ▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Sikboy, 5, #202 of 841 🔗

I’ve had this exact conversation with a friend today! I sent him one of Carl Heneghan’s analyses and he was saying he couldn’t really comment on it because he didn’t know what “axes Heneghan had to grind” or similar, as though this stuff isn’t a mathematical fact.

78309 ▶▶▶▶ A. Contrarian, replying to Barney McGrew, 3, #203 of 841 🔗

Presumably Ferguson sometimes grinds a few axes too, but people seem to believe every word he says…

78313 ▶▶▶▶▶ Jaguarpig, replying to A. Contrarian, #204 of 841 🔗

He should be executed

78252 ▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Sikboy, 1, #205 of 841 🔗

I think some people might think a “theorem” is the same sort of thing as what is colloquially called an “theory” in other words an opinion… And they get used to the idea that boffins are always saying one thing or another so just believe what you want.

78279 ▶▶▶▶ Sikboy, replying to guy153, 2, #206 of 841 🔗

Good point, theorem looks like a typo to a lot of people. The outcome of Bayes theorem in this case is counter intuitive, but has very real ramifications.

The best response I’ve had is “if you’re correct, why has nobody else spotted this?” Stating that this isn’t really an argument just gets me labelled with the ‘contrarian/smart arse/etc’.

78360 ▶▶▶▶▶ GLT, replying to Sikboy, 3, #207 of 841 🔗

Luckily we are all contrarians here and the explanation is extremely helpful to non-mathematicians like me!

78337 ▶▶▶▶ IMoz, replying to guy153, 2, #208 of 841 🔗

Indeed, people don’t understand the difference between ‘hypothesis’ and ‘theorem’ or, what nowadays passes for COVID-science, ‘whimsical speculation.’

78116 richard riewer, replying to richard riewer, 17, #209 of 841 🔗

Last time I shopped at the supermarket I was asked if I had any symptoms. One day later I wrote down a list. There are about 40 so far, all negative. Here are some examples: scared, paranoid, angry, bitter, disgusted, dismayed, incredulous, disconsolate, dejected, despondent,fearful, fretful, concerned, morose, depressed, shocked, shattered … and many many more. Now I have to translate them all into French. Check Roget’s Thesaurus and we could probably come up with hundreds. So, I was thinking of writing them all down on a scroll-like parchment paper, unraveling the paper as I read down the page. How long would they tolerate that?

78141 ▶▶ Julian, replying to richard riewer, 12, #210 of 841 🔗

Another unsavoury aspect of all this – unqualified strangers asking you questions about your medical status and poking thermometers at you. For a bad flu, we’ve moved from the presumption of innocence to the presumption of guilt. Some workplaces are doing/proposing temperature checks for staff – sorry, but I don’t want some colleague who I may not know (or one I do know very well) pointing any kind of device at me and telling me I can’t work that day.

78152 ▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Julian, 6, #211 of 841 🔗

Also not recommended by WHO for determining if people are suffering from “covid-19” or not as temperature tells you nothing meaningful.

This advice has never been changed.

78334 ▶▶▶▶ Jonathan Palmer, replying to Awkward Git, 1, #212 of 841 🔗

They remind me of the magical thermal healers that Del Boy was trying to sell in an episode of Only fools and horses.Is this all really happening?

78187 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to Julian, 5, #213 of 841 🔗

3 times now I’ve apparently had a temperature of between 34.2 and 34.7 when I’ve been checked when walking into a pub. Now, _either_ I died last Wednesday and my corpse is taking a while to cool down, or those remote thermometers don’t work.

This is why I can’t get too worked up about having my temperature taken – it’s just silliness.

78214 ▶▶▶▶ The Spingler, replying to matt, #214 of 841 🔗

Do you have a fringe? If yes then that’s your answer!

78222 ▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to The Spingler, #215 of 841 🔗

Nope. No fringe.

78897 ▶▶▶▶ Victoria, replying to matt, #217 of 841 🔗

So funny! They do not even know how to use the equipment but they have ticked the box….

78117 Tony, 6, #218 of 841 🔗

When the pubs reopened at the beginning of July, the media got excited because 3 or so immediately closed because a customed claimed to have the virus. Did any other customer or member of staff actually get infected? I can find no follow up on web.

78118 Schrodinger, #219 of 841 🔗

Good Video (at the top of the page) on masks here


78139 Ruth Sharpe, 13, #220 of 841 🔗

Another positive experience at the opticians – the only person in a mask was him & it was great! They have taken the very sensible attitude that there have been few cases in our area, so their re-opening is in proportion to the risk. I could have kissed him, but that probably would be going too far!

78143 DRW, replying to DRW, 1, #221 of 841 🔗
78212 ▶▶ fran, replying to DRW, 2, #222 of 841 🔗

I’ve been watching Mr Garrisons cartoons for several years now. He did a brilliant one for Brexit here ….


78151 Farinances, replying to Farinances, 14, #223 of 841 🔗


They’re now coming for the Swedish economy cause they can no longer come for their health policy.

Doesn’t stop the journalist getting the figures wrong though regarding that 😉

Still a lot of completely deluded lockdown lovers in the comments. Depressing. But much pushback. Heartening.

78170 ▶▶ DRW, replying to Farinances, 10, #224 of 841 🔗

Sweden is highly trade-oriented and many factories still closed because of no supply. If everywhere had done a Sweden we’d just probably have a mild downturn as opposed to a depression.

78160 theelrushbo, replying to theelrushbo, 4, #226 of 841 🔗


how can a government employee be the owner of a patent? worse, he has directed the CDC and NIH to invest in researching the supposed vaccine for covid-19… wtaf

78185 ▶▶ Laura Suckling, replying to theelrushbo, 2, #227 of 841 🔗

No conflict of interest at all then. It makes you want to spit.

78163 Harry hopkins, replying to Harry hopkins, 46, #228 of 841 🔗

Plusnet—Do you know a selfless saviour?

Received an E-mail from PlusNet this morning outlining their latest wheeze in their marketing campaign. Those of us who are with PlusNet are asked if we know anyone who has gone over and above the call of duty during the Covid crisis. We can nominate such persons who may win a staycation holiday in the UK (complete with Coroni safeguards I’m sure).

Well here’s my nomination. I nominate Harry Hopkins. Without doubt a selfless saviour extraordinaire. My reasons for nominating him are as follows:

*Insists on behaving ‘normally’ at all times.

*Will only ‘social distance’ if instigated by the other party.

*Walks normally and will not practice the ‘Coroni dance’.

* Refuses to use hand sanitiser.

* Is happy to visit other people’s homes when invited.

*Invites other people into his home.

*Listens with sympathy and patience and without argument to those who are scared stiff of the ’virus’.

* Maintains his hugging and hand shaking where appropriate.

* Will NOT don a face nappy.

*Will shop for others who cannot do their own for various reasons.

All pretty mundane and everyday stuff I’m sure and no justification for nomination here!

But the clincher is this.

Harry takes his next door neighbour (brain tumour) for his hospital appointments when no one else will. His friends, his family, other neighbours and acquaintances will not countenance this because of Covid. Taxis and buses are a no no for Harry’s neighbour and wife as the risk of Covid is too high in their frightened state. Harry’s neighbour is not a good friend but is a decent sort and when Harry volunteered to take them for their appointments he was asked ‘What about the virus. Are you not worried?’ To which he replied ‘I have absolutely no fear of the virus’ and left it at that.

But hasn’t it come to something. When a critically ill person is shunned by his friends (although they do visit him in their garden, bring their own flasks of tea and maintain social distance) and it is left to someone else to do the right thing. But why should Harry worry, and I’m sure he doesn’t. He gets the kudos for being so brave and selfless when he knows in his head that his actions are totally risk free and indeed gives him something to do occasionally, in these strange times..

Heroism is an act that is carried out either by someone who is scared rigid but does it anyway or by someone who acts on the spur of the moment without thought. What can we call the actions of someone who just tries to be normal in abnormal times and fills in a couple of hours every few weeks by giving his car a run out with two frightened people aboard? Some people call it selfless behaviour. I call it the mark of someone who has not succumbed to the collective madness and still maintains his integrity, self respect, and more than anything his common sense.

78167 ▶▶ mjr, replying to Harry hopkins, 14, #229 of 841 🔗

Now that attitude is something worth hanging out of a window on a thursday night and banging a pan for

78169 ▶▶ Sam Vimes, replying to Harry hopkins, 9, #230 of 841 🔗

Just trying to get under the carpet, because bowing low isn’t enough. I salute you, Harry.

78281 ▶▶ annie, replying to Harry hopkins, 5, #231 of 841 🔗

I vote for Harry.

78294 ▶▶ DRW, replying to Harry hopkins, 4, #232 of 841 🔗

Another fine contender for our PM.

78628 ▶▶ Yawnyaman, replying to Harry hopkins, 2, #233 of 841 🔗

Yeah, he seems a diamond!

78643 ▶▶ rational actor, replying to Harry hopkins, 4, #234 of 841 🔗

That’s superb.

But I am having a hard time processing the fact that a man with a brain tumour cannot find anyone else to take him to hospital appointments. I thought all these people were part of #theresistance and would heroically do anything in order to … oh wait, if it transgresses their personal fears I guess that’s off then. What a crowd of pusillanimous creeps.

Commendations, Harry.

78164 mjr, replying to mjr, 9, #235 of 841 🔗

We all knew Face masks were dangerous
McDonald’s: ‘Face mask’ found inside Aldershot store’s chicken nugget
Facemask and a Mcnugget … Lethal

78191 ▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to mjr, 1, #236 of 841 🔗

Double yuk

78359 ▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to mjr, 1, #237 of 841 🔗

Probably more nutrition in the facemask.

78165 A. Contrarian, replying to A. Contrarian, 12, #238 of 841 🔗

What is the current legal position on having guests in your home in England outside the local lockdown areas? I thought it was 30 people but a family member has just refused to see us plus another family as it would be “illegal”. He’s also just told us he won’t see us or anyone else in the family once his kids are back in school (so potentially not until next summer) as there’s “evidence” from Italy and France that kids spread the disease! Yet at the same time he’s convinced his daughter has already caught it at school from other kids – so why do they need to avoid us if he’s so sure?!

It’s been one of those days… if I see the words “stay safe” one more time I’m going to hit something.

78174 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to A. Contrarian, 14, #239 of 841 🔗

Who cares. Do what you want. 👍

78297 ▶▶▶ A. Contrarian, replying to Farinances, 3, #240 of 841 🔗

Totally agree but it’s not me that’s refusing to do it, it’s my BIL. He thinks it’s illegal and won’t do it as a result. Before I tell him it’s not illegal I want to be sure.

78307 ▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to A. Contrarian, 3, #241 of 841 🔗

It’s definitely not illegal. It’s guidelines.

78324 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to A. Contrarian, 4, #242 of 841 🔗

Can’t you just….. lie for his own good? ;P

Man, I’m such a bad influence.

78298 ▶▶▶ A. Contrarian, replying to Julian, 1, #244 of 841 🔗

Great, thanks!

78186 ▶▶ bluemoon, replying to A. Contrarian, 3, #245 of 841 🔗

Sorry, but maybe he just doesn’t like you any more and is using lockdown as an excuse! In fact I’ve heard that that ruse is being used rather a lot.

78228 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to bluemoon, 2, #246 of 841 🔗

He’s a prat, either way!

78300 ▶▶▶ A. Contrarian, replying to bluemoon, 1, #247 of 841 🔗

Could well be the case, I’ve never got on with them particularly well…

78242 ▶▶ Jonathan Palmer, replying to A. Contrarian, 1, #248 of 841 🔗

He sounds good company,he’s probably done you a favour.
You can still meet up with up to 30 people.

78171 Awkward Git, replying to Awkward Git, 18, #249 of 841 🔗

Had to have a new front door fitted today, all the fitters self-employed, total sceptics and angry about all the lost income and no help from the Government, they did not qualify for the schemes they said. No problems with them accepting coffee/tea and using toilets with no sanitiser, seat covers etc.

Then had to get the alarm company to send one to sort out alarm programming as new door did not allow the sensor to fit properly.

The regular guy who was here a few weeks ago turned up all asked up. Said the company has now decided that masks are to be worn at all times in customers houses and offices.

Had a chat with him over coffee as he’s becoming here for years and he’s a sceptic but doesn’t want grassed up by a narky customer.

Went through risk assessments, how he has to agree with the company’s risks assessments, how to raise the issue with the company, how useless masks are, watch out for bacterial infection then sue the company as they would be liable, did he want any more info for the company and so on – typical manger stuffI used to deal with daily.

In the end he’s worked without a mask, no issues and said he would have an informal chat with his boss.

Don’t want to screw this company as I’ve used them for years and all their guys are really good and they have always been their are short notice and so on but don’t want them to fall into the “we’re all going to die” bullshit and lose money nd go bankrupt.

Bit of a fine line dilemma.

78218 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Awkward Git, 10, #250 of 841 🔗

Feel sorry for those in this position who work for big firms as they will usually be more subjected to red tape. The tradespeople we’ve had round during this whole thing have almost all been totally unworried by the virus and have only observed the normal hygiene measures you’d expect from anyone when in a stranger’s home

78188 duncanpt, replying to duncanpt, 7, #251 of 841 🔗

PCR Test, Koch’s postulates and Covid-19
My understanding is that at least in the UK, Koch’s postulates have effectively been suspended for Covid-19. That is, the PCR test is taken as definitive. Normally medics require symptoms before declaring yo have the disease. Covid- is the exception. Indeed as some wag pointed out, the most common symptom is not knowing you’ve got it.

Nonetheless there seems to be some evidence that Koch’s criteria have been met. And naturally some evidence that they have not. The science is as usul not settled.

I found this which is an Oxford study that claims to have shown the virus causes a similar disease in appropriate mice:

I’ll leave it to others dig further.

78219 ▶▶ guy153, replying to duncanpt, 1, #252 of 841 🔗

Yes. And of course it has been tried on monkeys as well in the various vaccine trials. They infected them with lots of SARS2 and they got temperatures and pneumonia etc.

78239 ▶▶ mhcp, replying to duncanpt, 1, #253 of 841 🔗

As is typical with this things, they need to have a control. If you inject other coronoviruses in the same way do you get the similar lesions. Then the question is that realistic. A small subset of people have been found to have lesions but then you get them from other respiratory diseases too.

All this would be useful in gauging risk which currently still looks like a bit flu.

78566 ▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to mhcp, #254 of 841 🔗

Here’s an example of ZERO getting a free pass.

78192 Victoria, replying to Victoria, 6, #255 of 841 🔗

The rule of law is dead: There will be no legal recourse for anyone injured by new covid-19 vaccines
“AstraZeneca is one of twenty-five pharmaceutical companies that are entering into liability-free vaccine contracts with governments around the world. These corrupt contracts give the vaccine maker legal immunity when their vaccines harm people, giving pharmaceutical companies power over the courts . The rule of law is officially dead, as millions of victims line up to be injected by experimental inoculations where there will be no legal recourse for any vaccine side effect, reaction, disability, injury or death.”


78199 ▶▶ Jack, replying to Victoria, 5, #256 of 841 🔗

Is this not true for the vast majority of vaccines already?

Hence the need for: https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/index.html in the USA
and https://www.gov.uk/vaccine-damage-payment in the UK

78201 ▶▶▶ Jack, replying to Jack, 9, #257 of 841 🔗

Just noticed this in the eligibility section for the UK:

You could get a payment if you’re severely disabled and your disability was caused by vaccination against any of the following diseases:

  • influenza, except for influenza caused by a pandemic influenza virus
78220 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Jack, 1, #258 of 841 🔗

Funny, I was just thinking I bet there’s a get-out clause!

78221 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Jack, #259 of 841 🔗

Does its mean when the SARS1 vaccine mangled people that they didn’t get compo? Cause I think they did didn’t they?

78234 ▶▶▶▶▶ Jack, replying to Farinances, #260 of 841 🔗

I’m sure you’re correct. Probably SARS1 & 2 are not classed as influenza.

78285 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Jack, #261 of 841 🔗

Why not? They were pandemic viruses

78217 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Jack, #262 of 841 🔗

I’m sure the magic money tree will have it covered.

78256 ▶▶▶▶ Basics, replying to Cheezilla, #263 of 841 🔗

WHO declared the Pandemic. Did UK Gov declare it as well or is the WHO declaration enough to invoke the get our clause.

78197 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 19, #264 of 841 🔗

https://twitter.com/Covid19Crusher/status/1290908630783598594&nbsp ; “Pakistan thinks lockdown is an idea that its 200 million impoverished people just cannot afford. It is probably amazed by the outcome of of letting COVID run. The sudden collapse of the pandemic is simply breath taking. There has to be some herd immunity at work here
The economic unbearable lockdown ended 9th May. They expected a very difficult time with increasing cases and deaths. That happened but after the peak it collapsed. CFR 2.1% extremely low seven times less than the UK. They also used HCQ, the discredited drug according to BBC, both in early treatment and in prophylaxis

78223 ▶▶ Drawde927, replying to swedenborg, 7, #265 of 841 🔗

Covid19Crusher’s Twitter page has been an useful source of information. Seeing the exact same pattern of epidemic growth and decline in so many places, from those (like Pakistan) which didn’t impose or couldn’t sustain a lockdown, to those which imposed severe lockdowns (like New York state) but still had very high case/death numbers, definitely indicates something is going on regarding herd immunity!

78254 ▶▶▶ Tenchy, replying to Drawde927, 4, #266 of 841 🔗

Funny how you never hear about this in the MSM.

78273 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Drawde927, 3, #267 of 841 🔗

It’s almost as if this is how it’s always been as with flu coming and going every year.

78205 Aremen, replying to Aremen, 20, #268 of 841 🔗

I emailed the hotel which we go to regularly in Madeira a few days ago. Madeira has just announced that people will have to wear masks in the streets, and I told them that if this is still in place as we get nearer to the time of our next booking, we will be cancelling, as will a lot of other people, from what I have read. I received a reply today, and this is my reply to the email from the lady in the hotel’s marketing department:

Thank you for your reply. You write “Unfortunately it is a measure that we will all have to comply with in order to ensure community security, at least for now!”, but mask wearing does NOT ensure community security. It increases the risk of spreading not only Covid, but other bacteria and viruses, as described below. Also, the wearers re-breathe in the bacteria, viruses and moulds which our lungs are trying to remove. After 30 minutes of use, a mask becomes so full of water from the lungs that it traps all these bacteria, viruses and moulds, and damages the health of the person wearing the mask. Only medically approved N95 masks are effective in doing what your government intends to do, and these can only be worn for short periods of time, and users have to be trained in how to put them on, remove them and dispose of them.

I appreciate that the UK and Portugal are different countries, but this is what Dr Jenny Harries, Deputy Chief Medical Officer for England, said in March 2020, reported in The Independent newspaper:

“On wearing a face mask against COVID-19: “For the average member of the public walking down a street, it is not a good idea,” says Jenny Harries OBE, Deputy Chief Medical Officer for England. Members of the public could be putting themselves more at risk from contracting coronavirus by wearing face masks, one of England’s most senior doctors has warned. Jenny Harries, deputy chief medical officer, said the masks could “actually trap the virus” and cause the person wearing it to breathe it in. “For the average member of the public walking down a street, it is not a good idea” to wear a face mask in the hope of preventing infection, she added. This is because people wear the same mask over and over and over again, lay it down on unsanitary surfaces, and fiddle with it while wearing it.”

The WHO has admitted that it changed its advice on wearing masks, which had been that they were not useful, under pressure from politicians. So we have “science” being determined by politics.

The evidence is that Covid-19 kills about the same number of people as a bad strain of influenza will in one year. So the risks from Covid are the same as the risks from influenza, in which case it would be logical to continue wearing masks until the end of time to prevent passing on influenza, as it is just as dangerous as Covid.

78209 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Aremen, 3, #269 of 841 🔗

No need to wear masks outdoors in the Canary Islands yet, or in Italy.

78238 ▶▶▶ Jonathan Palmer, replying to Julian, 2, #270 of 841 🔗

Is that true.I might make Lanzarote this year after all.

78264 ▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Jonathan Palmer, 2, #271 of 841 🔗

This is from Puerto Del Carmen, yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TySsPU1glUk
Few outdoor masks, but mainly bare faces. Masks just indoors, for now.

78325 ▶▶▶▶▶ Jonathan Palmer, replying to Julian, 2, #272 of 841 🔗

I prefer Playa Blanca but thanks for the info.

78207 matt, replying to matt, 13, #273 of 841 🔗

My wife jokes that the main reason I don’t like lockdown is that they closed the pubs. So put this down to bias, perhaps.

Nonetheless, to close pubs again 8 weeks after allowing them to reopen – and presumably (?) till the beginning of the Christmas holidays must, surely be the final nail in the coffin for huge numbers of establishments across the country, not to mention the loss of livelihoods for tens or hundreds of thousands of people who work there, especially since the furlough scheme will only have 2 months left to run when it happens.

I’m concerned that the message keeps cropping up – the story Toby links is the second time we’ve heard this in a week. Seems likely we’re being prepared for it actually happening.

78215 ▶▶ Farinances, replying to matt, 9, #274 of 841 🔗


Let’s hope!

78473 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Farinances, 2, #275 of 841 🔗

Evidently, that’s what G.Manchester police are anticipating.
My friend from Zimbabwe thought the local lockdown could be for provocation.

78245 ▶▶ Ruth Sharpe, replying to matt, 3, #276 of 841 🔗

As someone on here commented to me the other day, to part an Englishman from the pub will be a step too far. We shall see.

78321 ▶▶▶ Jonathan Palmer, replying to Ruth Sharpe, 4, #277 of 841 🔗

They have done it to the Irish.Which at the risk of stereotyping I would have thought impossible.

78340 ▶▶ Achilles, replying to matt, 8, #278 of 841 🔗

That’s exactly why they’ve created this false dichotomy of pubs and schools so that if you complain about pubs closing people can say “so having a drink is more important to you than our children’s education?”. Just like they say now “so going to the beach is more important to you than the lives of our elderly?”, etc. It’s a psychological ploy to shame you in to accepting restrictions on your liberty.

78216 AllieT, replying to AllieT, 10, #279 of 841 🔗

I rang our dentist today as Mr.T had 3 appointments cancelled during lockdown. My hygienist appt also cancelled but they offered me an alternative to the water jet where she attacks your teeth with a hand held prong oh and it costs extra to the usual appt. Needless to say I declined until the hygienist can do it properly. Anyway I told the receptionist that at least we had our 6 month checks booked for September. But No! She told me very pleased with herself that those appts would be put back until November “and if there’s a second wave they’ll be put back again” so no available dental treatment then? I said She replied they almost all had PPE now and would be working through their patients as soon as they can. It is a Private/NHS practice. Why so long to get PPE?? In other news our dog went for a groom today. It’s easier for a collie to have a bath than for us to visit the dentist!

78230 ▶▶ Julian, replying to AllieT, 10, #280 of 841 🔗

I went as soon as dentists opened up again, with water jet (2 hygienists, full head to toe PPE). Mine are expensive, and private, and charged a supplement on top. I’m lucky. The whole dentist business has been a disgrace.

78368 ▶▶▶ JulieR, replying to Julian, 3, #281 of 841 🔗

I had to take my daughter to a private dentist after they opened.
They charged extra £104 for PPE!
I was shocked but had to pay.

78457 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Julian, 1, #282 of 841 🔗

Mine is operating exactly the same crazy regime as Toby described in today’s blog.

It isn’t my dentist’s fault – he’s great. The rules have been imposed from some umbrella company and he’s part of the consortum.

I pay a monthly plan, which isn’t cheap for something I haven’t been able to use. I don’t fancy kowtowing to the draconian biohazard rules, so a decision will have to be made.

78244 ▶▶ Ruth Sharpe, replying to AllieT, 3, #283 of 841 🔗

Our friends, who live next door to our dentist, told us last night that they have gone on holiday! At last check, ours still weren’t open, but this is the People’s Republic of Scotland, after all.

78690 ▶▶ rational actor, replying to AllieT, 1, #284 of 841 🔗

Wait a minute, if cloth masks are so very beneficial surely they can use those much more easily and cheaply? It’s not as if the public is being fobbed off with nonsense.

78890 ▶▶▶ kf99, replying to rational actor, 1, #285 of 841 🔗

Is routine dentistry that difficult? Can’t believe no-one has tried to disrupt the market. The lack of choice means it’s like a cartel.

78224 Tim Bidie, replying to Tim Bidie, 4, #286 of 841 🔗

I had no idea how the Dolan case against the government could have been thrown out without any consideration of the evidence supporting the notion that covid 19 was a major threat to mankind, which it most certainly is not, as must, by now, be obvious to all.

But I now realise that, under ‘The precautionary principle’, that is not necessary

‘Closely linked to various versions of the PP (Precautionary Principle) is the idea of reversing the onus of proof.’

‘…substituting the maxim “guilty until proven innocent” for the age-old legal principle “innocent until proven guilty.”

Taken to its logical extreme, ‘ a consistent application of the PP would, in the final analysis, stifle all innovation.’

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC526264/ &nbsp ;

But, surely, that would be crazy?

Not so, said the courts, flinging out the Dolan case.

But all may not be lost now that there is to be an appeal

The precautionary principle, at present, is much talked about:

‘…something which particularly concerns us in the (US/UK trade talks) leaked documents is the unsurprising but nevertheless depressing fact that the US Government is clearly pressuring our Government to drop the ‘Precautionary Principle’. This is a key protection for us and for nature (dangerous anthropogenic climate change) ; if the Trump and Johnson Governments had practiced precaution in relation to the coronavirus pandemic (as some other countries such as New Zealand did), they wouldn’t now have hundreds of thousands of graves on their hands and consciences.’

The London Economic ( set up to counter the spread of far-right rhetoric) 18 June 2020

But what is the precautionary principle?

It is: “to give in matters of a certain magnitude—those with apocalyptic potential—greater weight to the prognosis of doom than to that of bliss”

Jonas H (1984) The Imperative of Responsibility: In Search of an Ethics for the Technological Age.

This is what has been going on. This is the real virus, manifesting itself, most recently and egregiously, in the state’s defence against the simon dolan lawsuit

‘It (the government) has, for obvious reason given the scale and severity of the threat posed by the virus, proceeded on a precautionary basis.’


It is not just the government that is on trial here. It is the precautionary principle itself and its mendacious ability to trump our much older principle of ‘innocent until proven guilty’.

The stakes are high. This case will clarify the English legal system’s ability, or lack of it, to protect the ancient rights of the citizens of this country, so far simply lambs to the slaughter.

78226 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Tim Bidie, 10, #287 of 841 🔗

“It is not just the government that is on trial here. It is the precautionary principle itself and its mendacious ability to trump our much older principle of ‘innocent until proven guilty’.
The stakes are high. This case will clarify the English legal system’s ability, or lack of it, to protect the ancient rights of the citizens of this country, so far simply lambs to the slaughter. ”

Totally agree. It’s a test case of enormous importance, just as the reaction of the world as a whole to this virus is a test to see where we are as a race – currently failing miserably.

78259 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Tim Bidie, 4, #288 of 841 🔗

The circumstances have changed. The virus is not currently a clear and present danger so the precautionary principle cannot simply apply on the basis that it may happen at some indeterminate time in the future.

78283 ▶▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to Nobody2020, 2, #289 of 841 🔗

Of course, as you suggest, that is the whole point of the ‘second wave’ confection.

We should not forget that this is a Brexit government, and this silliness has duped the many anti brexiteers into indignities that handily obscure any Brexit induced downturn, now entirely attributable to ‘the covid’

78292 ▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Tim Bidie, 3, #290 of 841 🔗

I dunno they could flip it quite handily on a dime when they want to. (When the tide turns and they start to blame Boris for everything, they will be right back on that Evil Brexit train, and denying that Covid had anything to do with the economic cesspool)

78304 ▶▶▶▶▶ Farinances, replying to Farinances, 5, #291 of 841 🔗

I can see it going something like:


The UK economy is still foundering after the pandemic, finding it almost impossible to recover after a double whammy of plague and Brexit. Brexit is placing a stranglehold on the country and is only making it worse”

— They won’t of course mention that the fact we took 6 months longer to get out of lockdown is what really did the damage. (Brexit might even ease that a bit depending on what happens- less liability for the shit taking place in countries other than Germany and France ;p hey even France is in the poo and Deutsche Bank is fucked so…..)

78342 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Farinances, #292 of 841 🔗

It’s difficult to imagine that the economic problems of basket cases like Spain and Italy have been improved by flying into a screaming panic over a jumped up cold. The money to keep them buying German cars is all going to have to come from Germany and a few other less profligate nations, now.

Makes the underlying EU deal – shiny things in return for accepting German primacy – even more apparent.

78574 ▶▶▶▶ Jonathan Palmer, replying to Tim Bidie, 2, #293 of 841 🔗

I think any damage Brexit might have done to the economy is insignificant compared to the damage the lockdown has caused and will.

78338 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Tim Bidie, 3, #294 of 841 🔗

The idea that the precautionary principle has any place in addressing this latest coronavirus should have been out of the window by February at the latest, and realistically probably in January. It was broadly clear by then that this disease, as a matter of observed fact, was not causing apocalyptic consequences. By March, and before the fateful lockdown policy was implemented, even the maximally worst case “do nothing” scenario by the absurdly overstated Imperial College modellers portrayed nothing like an apocalypse, merely a doubling or so of the normal annual deaths, and some pressure on the health service.

This highlights a major problem with the precautionary principle, namely how hypocritically it is used. It is applied when it is useful to promote the applier’s political agenda, and ignored otherwise. Hence it is just another tool in the propagandist’s box.

For instance, we are screamed at to apply the precautionary principle over climate change, and (absurdly) to a disease that we already knew back in February was never going to have “apocalyptic potential”, but we are not allowed to consider the precautionary principle when it comes to such unfashionable causes as resisting sleepwalking into a developing European superstate, nor when it came to implementing mass immigration on a scale never before seen in this country’s history, going back a thousand years. Both of the latter represent steps that gamble with the very existence of the nation in its current form, that if they go wrong would almost certainly require wars of the most unpleasant kind to unravel, but no sign of the application of any precautionary principle. Just “think of that wonderful internationalism/diversity” and anyone against it is evil.

78243 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 10, #295 of 841 🔗

There is a flare up of Covid-19 in Faraoe Islands 50 000 inhabitants all connected with the yearly national feast. Thought it would interesting to post what the Prime Minister of these tiny Islands said in press conference( learning point for a PM of some bigger Islands?)
 Questions from the floor
Question : When the people do not respect the social distancing and hygiene rules, isn’t that a sign of weak leadership?
Prime Minister : “We saw a clear change in public behaviour when the virus was wiped out in April. We sincerely hope that now, with the virus returning, people will recognise the severity of the situation and act accordingly. We see other countries seeking legal authority to enforce compliance with social distancing measures, but that does not appear to go a long way towards eradicating the virus.”
Question : Will schools and daycare be shut down?
Prime Minister : “Our initial plan is to keep these institutions open as usual, as our health experts say the virus is less of an immediate threat to children and teenagers.”
Question : People are scared. How should we conduct ourselves in the coming days?
Prime Minister : “This is something we’re looking into. We only have figures from the past two days. Our further plans will rely heavily on tomorrow’s figures. In general, we should conduct ourselves like we did when the virus broke out in March, with the same levels of caution and alertness. It is crucial that we rediscover that mind set now.”
Question : So parents should send their children to daycare and go to work as usual?
Chief medical officer : “We should hold back on visiting vulnerable people in hospitals and other institutions, but we should wait a day or two before making any decisions about closing schools or daycare centres.”
Question : Should we now just resign to the fact that Covid-19 is here to stay?
Chief of police : “With open borders, it is unrealistic to expect the Faroe Islands to be entirely free of Covid-19.”
Question : What will it take for a new lockdown to be imposed?
Prime Minister : ”If the infection numbers continue to rise, we need to reassess our position on this. The economic and social consequences of a lockdown are devastating, and that is something we really do not want to see again. For now, we just need to adjust our daily lives like we all did so well earlier this year. Our strategy is not to be entirely free of Covid-19; our primary objective is to keep our society running as normally as possible in these abnormal circumstances.”
Question : Who will pay for the mandatory testing of incoming travellers after 14th August?
Prime Minister : “We haven’t decided on that yet. Our priority right now is to reduce the numbers of Covid-19 cases.”
Question : People are on the lookout for scapegoats. Looking back, did you pick the right strategy?
Prime Minister : ”I take full responsibility for our strategy. What we’re seeing today is that the public did not observe our health guidelines, especially during ólavsøka last week.”
Question : You had the authority to cancel the ólavsøka national holiday. Was it right to go ahead with the celebrations?
Prime Minister : “The public wanted to celebrate ólavsøka. Many efforts were made to spread the celebratons out to the city’s districts as a preventive alternative to the usual events in the centre. What’s important now is that the virus is back in our community, and we must all work together to fight it off once again with the same spirit we had this spring.”
Question : How do you trace the sources of infection when the number of positive tests is as high as it is now?
Chief medical officer : “There are probably two sources of infection in the country at the moment. There are some loose ends, but we are doing everything we can to solve this puzzle.”
Question : Are there any plans to limit international travel?
Prime Minister : ”As things stand now, we will not make any changes in this regard. Our immediate goal is to combat the virus domestically.”
Question : Do you have an exit strategy?
Prime Minister : “It is too early to set any dates. We will know a lot more over the next couple of days.”
Question : Where do those who tested positive today and yesterday come from?
Chief medical officer : “Most of them are from Tórshavn, and a few are from the Runavík area.”
Question : Do you have any plans for local lockdowns?
Prime Minister : We might consider that, but it’s too early to say now.
Prime Minister Bárður á Steig concluded the news conference by saying that if each one of us respects the social distancing and hygiene guidelines, we will again manage to defeat this virus.

78272 ▶▶ Tenchy, replying to swedenborg, #296 of 841 🔗

How big is the flare up? I looked at Wikipedia but the Faroe Islands article is way out of date – not updated since May.

78322 ▶▶▶ swedenborg, replying to Tenchy, 1, #297 of 841 🔗

The flare up is 14 persons today and 3 the day before.These are all indigenous and not counting the 32 Russians,Lithuanian earlier which mostly have left

78380 ▶▶▶▶ Tenchy, replying to swedenborg, 4, #298 of 841 🔗

Thanks. 52,000 people live in the Faroe Islands, so 0.03% have tested positive yesterday. Not so much a flare up, more like a glowing candle wick.

78488 ▶▶▶▶▶ Little Red Hen, replying to Tenchy, 1, #299 of 841 🔗

Or a fire-fly’s bum…

78439 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to swedenborg, 1, #300 of 841 🔗

Sounds like a sensible plan.

78247 Little Red Hen, replying to Little Red Hen, 13, #301 of 841 🔗

Mumsnet – where the members will scream abuse and call you a murderer if you dare to suggest that trans-women are, in fact, MEN!

A platform for the nastiest type of ignorance & bigotry you can think of. No real & decent mother would ever waste her time lifting the manhole cover & peering down into that particular sewer.

Their ignorance on schools re-opening is entirely typical.

78269 ▶▶ AngloWelshDragon, replying to Little Red Hen, 9, #302 of 841 🔗

Not true at all. Have you even been on it? Mumsnet is and has always been a hot bed of anti trans activists and has got a lot of stick for defending women’s spaces from the frock wearing AGPs. They call us TERFs but most of us aren’t feminists never mind Rad Fems. We are normal women who just want the right to get changed in women only changing rooms, see women clinicians for intimate procedures and not have our daughters intimidated by men in dresses in public toilets.

78277 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to AngloWelshDragon, 3, #303 of 841 🔗

Hey, that’s another argument, a valid debate but let’s keep focused, folks!

78336 ▶▶▶▶ SweetBabyCheeses, replying to annie, 1, #304 of 841 🔗

The main point is right though…Mumsnet most definitely has a Gender Critical atmosphere. This implies to me that they are mostly sensible and logical people.

Plus there are lots of “cancel culture” parallels between being too woke to admit that men aren’t women and too woke to admit that COVID is not that dangerous.

78353 ▶▶▶ JulieR, replying to AngloWelshDragon, 1, #305 of 841 🔗

Yes, the feminist section us very good and supports women’s rights.

78477 ▶▶▶ Little Red Hen, replying to AngloWelshDragon, #306 of 841 🔗

Then it’s a very small hot-bed – possibly just a travel cot.

And they must have been away on holiday with it when I was slapped about by the Mermaid mums.

Either way, the fact that 25% of the polled Mumsnet parents were unwilling to return their children to school until death has been entirely cancelled indicates a very high level of wilful ignorance. The same type of wilful/unscientific ignorance that called me a murderer over the ‘trans-women are men’ issue.

Sure Annie (below), a bit off point regards the Lockdown, but still an agenda being heavily pushed by those in power and one that needs a fierce challenge in the same way.

78349 ▶▶ JulieR, replying to Little Red Hen, 4, #307 of 841 🔗

I think Mumsnet is used for government propaganda.
Also the majority is very supportive of lockdowns.

78483 ▶▶▶ Little Red Hen, replying to JulieR, #308 of 841 🔗

Spot on.
Just think how many politicians (from both sides) mention it, quote it, play to it.

78250 Dan Clarke, replying to Dan Clarke, 11, #309 of 841 🔗

1/4 of parents are bedwetters, so 3/4 are not, majority rules

78253 ▶▶ JohnH, replying to Dan Clarke, 3, #310 of 841 🔗

I thought 25% showed the tide must be turning

78255 ▶▶▶ Dan Clarke, replying to JohnH, 1, #311 of 841 🔗

Yes it is low, even for bedwetters

78258 ▶▶▶▶ JohnH, replying to Dan Clarke, 3, #312 of 841 🔗

doesn’t add up given all the bedwetter nonsense around. Went to a local micro pub re-opening tonight – most people there were bedwetters. One girl, a friend of one of our kids, thought it was all bollocks though

78267 ▶▶▶ Little Red Hen, replying to JohnH, #313 of 841 🔗

In an average primary school, that is nigh on 100 kids absent. That’s a lot of kids.

And this is just a ‘poll’ of mums with school aged children. A narrow spectrum.

I think 25% of this narrow (pain-in-the buttocks-yummy-mummy-helicopter-parent-cous-cous-in-a-bamboo-box type) spectrum is quite substantial.

78436 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Little Red Hen, 1, #314 of 841 🔗

Surely quinoa?

78450 ▶▶▶▶▶ Little Red Hen, replying to Cheezilla, #315 of 841 🔗

Plant based, obvs…

78494 ▶▶ Will, replying to Dan Clarke, 3, #316 of 841 🔗

Our daughter has her second pulse of chemotherapy tomorrow and her medical team are happy for her to go back to school in September. Three paediatricians have told me that covid is, quite simply, not an issue for children, including children, like my daughter, who are having their immune systems bleached. Fucking teachers….

78251 Dan Clarke, 7, #317 of 841 🔗

So many people are on Power Trips, more than are infected with Covid actually

78257 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 11, #318 of 841 🔗

It looks good for Sweden in the GDP table  but I think the price was too high and the social distancing efforts in Sweden was not cost effective from a Public Health perspective.
25% of 5700 deaths in Sweden over 90. Median age of death 86 years .No or less total all cause mortality below 65. Post epidemic several weeks reduced total deaths. Many suspect the total above all causes of death would be in the region 3000, not different from earlier flu years. Like all other countries Sweden prioritised excessive costs for one disease over all other diseases like cancer,stroke etc. Swedish hospitals also stopped elective surgery stopping hip replacements etc (leaving people with pain)etc .Benefit of hindsight but all advanced health systems must understand that prioritising one disease over all other is a dilemma especially as politicians let it go from three week to three months or even longer.

78308 ▶▶ Jay Berger, replying to swedenborg, 11, #319 of 841 🔗

Lockdowns wouldn’t have made a difference on care home deaths at all.
As in the UK/US, and unlike in Germany, more PPE for staff and not sending people from hospitals into care homes, certainly not untested as in N.Y., were the mistakes made and keys to lower deaths there.
And Belarus suggests that SD doesn’t make a difference anyway.

In Sweden, the GDP contraction has hit large cos and exporters harder than SMEs and the domestically oriented businesses, which is the opposite of where the damage occurred elsewhere.

Sweden has also spent and disboursed much less on state aid than the other countries.
Its private sector contracted by maybe 15%, the ones of USA/UK/Europe by 25-30%, and the government debt increases to achieve the lower headline total figures are only 9% in Sweden, off a low 40!% base anyway, in contrast to 15-25%+ elesewhere (60!% in Germany, if all loan guarantees default and are eventually called upon), and off much higher bases, of course.

And if everyone had done like Sweden did, most countries would gave only had a mild slowdown,
without the need for any
government support and any debt increases, or rather, explosions.

And, for those few who care about that, certainly amongst policy makers or ethicists, tens of millions of people in the 3rd world wouldn’t face certain death by poverty and starvation soon or already.
For that alone, all people involved in or supporting that decision in politics, science and the media should face trial in The Hague once they are unseated and locked up, as they eventually will be.

78535 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Jay Berger, -1, #320 of 841 🔗

all people involved in or supporting that decision in politics, science and the media should face trial in The Hague once they are unseated and locked up, as they eventually will be’….
I agree that they *should* all be unseated and locked up, but do you really believe they will be? There seems to be a coordinated global plan, and just now I am not sure there are enough of us to stop it, or even that we *can* stop it….

78261 AngloWelshDragon, replying to AngloWelshDragon, 5, #321 of 841 🔗

25% of parents are bedwetters? I’m actually amazed it’s not higher. I’m quite encouraged.

78262 ▶▶ JohnH, replying to AngloWelshDragon, 1, #322 of 841 🔗

Doesnt feel high enough…

78345 ▶▶ JulieR, replying to AngloWelshDragon, 4, #323 of 841 🔗

Mumsnet is pushing government propaganda.
There was a discussion on it recently and a lot of people supported masks in schools when they open in September. Even in primary. I was shocked by responses.
I got involved in a recent discussion about masks in shops and 95% were pro masks and calling people idiots and socially irresponsible if they have a different point if view.

78448 ▶▶▶ Toby Pierides, replying to JulieR, 3, #324 of 841 🔗

Look at who the Mumsnet CEO is married to. He was the Newsnight editor…

78358 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to AngloWelshDragon, 1, #325 of 841 🔗

Unfortunately I’m not convinced about that given the number of kids being muzzled and being dipped in industrial vats of sanitiser and sun cream.

78263 James Leary #KBF, replying to James Leary #KBF, 18, #326 of 841 🔗

This is all getting far too similar to Prohibition in the USA. THE 18th Amendment, or the Volkstead Act. It was never in anybody’s political manifesto. It was pushed by a variety of ‘do-gooder’ non-democratic organisations that lobbied politicians ceaselessly. It wasn’t wanted by the people, but was largely adhered to in the first year. After that …. well we all know what happened. Al Capone, speakeasies, and a general ignoring of the rules which eventually were held in contempt. A large section of the population in cahoots with criminals. The Law ignored in one area is the Law ignored – period.

This isn’t booze (except in South Effrika). This is People Prohibition. The forbidding of interaction and normal socialising with other people. No consumption of the milk of human kindness. Oh my word, no. Come back Capone – all is forgiven.

78276 ▶▶ annie, replying to James Leary #KBF, 9, #327 of 841 🔗

I think this site is a freedom speakeasy!

78326 ▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to James Leary #KBF, 3, #328 of 841 🔗

Temperance is bubbling below the surface here (under the guise of clamping down on binge drinking) and was never eradicated in the US – there are still a group of ‘Control States’ even though the Volstead Act was repealed in 1933. The numbers of people in the US who died or were maimed from consuming moonshine during Prohibition was shocking. It was more than just criminals in cahoots with the population though; some very prominent and politically powerful families were active in bootlegging, and capturing licences for ‘medicinal alcohol’ that gave them free-reign on ‘legitimate’ liquor distribution. You are right though, the aim is clearly to stop groups meeting to ‘plot’ the downfall of the great and good – they are worried, as indeed they should be given what they have done.

78454 ▶▶ Two-Six, replying to James Leary #KBF, 2, #329 of 841 🔗

Alcohol Prohibition in the USA was mainly to force farmers and US citizens to STOP making their own FUEL to run tractors, cars and lamps. This coupled with prohibition of HEMP forced millions of Americans into buying OIL. A commodity until then that has almost no market value.

78545 ▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Two-Six, 1, #330 of 841 🔗

It was Temperance-driven. It started to sweep through the US after the formation of a well-organised lobby group, The Women’s Christian Temperance Union in 1874. Maine had already adopted state-wide Prohibition in 1846, and by 1900 there were 7 ‘dry’ states. During WWI, there was an extension of the movement across both sides of the Atlantic, under the auspices of ’emergency’. There was extensive push-back here, largely driven by Scottish MPs.

The ‘creeping’ nature of Prohibition is apposite.

78265 Jay Berger, 7, #331 of 841 🔗

One ‘study’ that influenced many policy makers to change their advise on masks was the Chu McMaster/
Hamilton one.
It is entirely based upon reviewing non RCT studies, falsely claiming that no such studies exist (wrong, but they are all negative/inconclusive) and that therefore, their approach to analyse only non-RCT ‘evidence’ on this on a wider scope is justified.
Denis Rancourt stated to the WHO that the study is problematic and that the confidence level of its authors has been given as low by them.
It is also completely misrepresented with regard to the effects of medical, surgical and cloth masks in most articles about it.
Which is no surprise, as the study itself seems to have been mixing things up in that regard as well, see the critical link, there are more.
This 2 months old study is now disseminated again in Germany by the MSM to discredit the non-maskers after Saturdays huge and
successful demonstration there, which really shook up the esablishment and dented the MSM’s credibility due to its subsequent too obviously bogus reporting and

78266 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 5, #332 of 841 🔗

Early lockdown better?
French Guyana (300k people) really felt safe ending a lockdown on May 11, with less than 10 active cases. However, the pandemic quickly ran out of control and skyrocketed. It has now likely reached the herd immunity threshold and recedes in a pattern visible in many countries

78315 ▶▶ PoshPanic, replying to swedenborg, 7, #333 of 841 🔗

I’d love to see an economist run an estimate of life years gained, if the UK’s 300 billion plus spend, had gone into the healthcare system. Would it outweigh life years/months lost from ( not with ) Covid 19?

78427 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to PoshPanic, 1, #334 of 841 🔗

But they wanted a cull and a power grab. Life years gained was never on the radar.

78582 ▶▶▶ Bruno, replying to PoshPanic, #335 of 841 🔗

Not quite what you are looking for, as it doesn’t examine the effect of using the £300Bn differently, but see LSEs Paper 49 for a cost benefit analysis in
terms of, not QALYs, but WELLBYs, to estimate the optimum date for ending lockdown:
Which as at April looked to be by 1 June! If only!

78268 arfurmo, replying to arfurmo, 10, #336 of 841 🔗

Preston to have a local lockdown? https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/uknews/12319396/preston-lockdown-coronavirus-cases-rise-nightclub-open/ Covid-19 infections have more than doubled in the city in the week to July 31 from 22 to 49 – almost 35 cases per 100,000 population” . 22 to 49? So what?

78293 ▶▶ Mark II, replying to arfurmo, 13, #337 of 841 🔗

Rinse and repeat, everywhere. This was always going to be the future the moment the bellends entered the 1st lockdown… There is no logical ‘way out’ without them admitting mistakes/that the first one was dumb, without some magical vaccine.

78311 ▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to arfurmo, 14, #338 of 841 🔗

We are progressing to full national lockdown here, unless someone gets a grip. My husband reminds me this is akin to what happened in Foot & Mouth, vindicated on the same Ferguson model, where an outbreak on a single farm resulted in all animals (even healthy ones) on neighbouring farms within a 3km radius (the ‘contiguous cull policy’) being killed. It would have resulted in the killing of every single cloven hooved animal in the entire country, as the circles around each outbreak started to join together, had it not been stopped by legal challenge. Note, the Wiki page on this wholly unmitigated disaster has been rewritten as of 23 July 2020. Sir David King, he of also-ran SAGE, was the CSO at the time!

78361 ▶▶ John Galt, replying to arfurmo, 7, #339 of 841 🔗

Hahaha, oh my god, ignoring the severity of what they’re doing to us, that’s absurdist humour at it’s finest.

“Covid-19 infections have more than doubled in the city in the week to July 31 from 22 to 49”
“And the worrying number is the second-biggest increase behind Blackburn with Darwen, which recorded 119 new cases. Alarmingly, a staggering 18 cases were recorded in one day alone.”


I can’t imagine how these journalists bring themselves to even write this. Wouldn’t you be sat at your computer looking at the figures thinking “christ, how on earth am I meant to make this look scary? Let me get out the thesaurus.”

78274 Jay Berger, 20, #340 of 841 🔗


Big demo again in Berlin on 29.8 by the organisers of last Saturday’s successful one.
Now inviting the whole of Europe to attend!
Hotel rooms should be available aplenty, thanks to the idiotic government restrictions that have killed all other travel and tourism there.

78278 Cheezilla, replying to Cheezilla, 23, #341 of 841 🔗

Found this brilliant piece by KJH in the comments to John Ward’s latest blogpost

The data from our extensive laboratory and field trials clearly indicate that the risk of Covid-19 infection by aerosol transmission can be markedly reduced by walking backwards. The slight air flow produced is shown to create a slipstreaming effect around the head which directs particles past and away from the face.
However, the edges of a face mask or visor inhibit the aerodynamic flow and so they should be instead worn on the back of the head in such a way as to enhance streamlining of the skull.
When outside the person should continue to walk backwards but, in the case of a prevailing wind blowing into the face, the person should then bend double so that the wind is once more directed against the back of the now inverted head. This position will also allow improved vision when looking between the legs whilst walking.
A partial sideways crab-like movement should be adopted when the prevailing wind is approaching from an angular direction.
The public should be encouraged to adopt these simple measures immediately. We owe it to ourselves and our loved ones to do all we can to avoid infection.
Anyone who cannot comply with these instructions for physical reasons should register with us to sell Fisolate. Upon registration we will send you full details of this unique opportunity to sell Fisolate to your family, friends and neighbours. Become a local agent and stockist. More on our website.
Yours etc.
Prof. K.J. Hutchinson
Infectious Diseases Institute of Taunton (IDIoT)
University Centre Somerset

78290 ▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Cheezilla, 4, #342 of 841 🔗

That gave me such a laugh.

78310 ▶▶ Ruth Sharpe, replying to Cheezilla, 1, #343 of 841 🔗

Is this something to spread on social media & see what happens? As things are at the moment, this could be sent with all seriousness!

78423 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Ruth Sharpe, #344 of 841 🔗

Tempting but we can’t credit the author – which may be wrong or may be a good thing!

It might make people think though.

I suspect if you put The Slog link, fb will make your post disappear.

78397 ▶▶ watashi, replying to Cheezilla, 2, #345 of 841 🔗

Oh my goodness! this made me laugh so much I almost wet myself. Thank you! I needed a good laugh.

78422 ▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to watashi, #346 of 841 🔗

Have to admit I had to dash to the loo!

78644 ▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Cheezilla, #347 of 841 🔗

Send this to Nicola Sturgeon. She can add it to her list of inane ideas.

78284 Dave #KBF, 2, #348 of 841 🔗

Interesting interview by Richie Allen of Dr Mohammad Iqbal Adil who has been suspended by The GMC for 12 months.

Give the Dr a chance to get into his stride.


78287 Basics, replying to Basics, 12, #349 of 841 🔗

Scottish Higher grades scandal.

133,000 students from disadvantaged areas have had their teacher estimated results downgraded by algorithm. #resignsturgeon is trending. Swinney Education snp is in the thick of it again.

Being a bit jaded by oppression I don’t have much to add. This scandal was always going to be the case from the first moment of lockdown – all those curve flattening multiples of three weeks ago. It is right these LS pages have some record of this life changing scandal so I post this link by Maher Tousi that explains the situation of the scandal.

10 mins

78329 ▶▶ Gillian, replying to Basics, 7, #350 of 841 🔗

It would be FUCKING marvellous to see that bitch Sturgeon and her sidekick Swinney fall on their swords over Education.

78413 ▶▶▶ Basics, replying to Gillian, 1, #351 of 841 🔗

There is something creepy about him. In the serious meaning of the word.

78434 ▶▶▶▶ Gillian, replying to Basics, 1, #352 of 841 🔗

Yes, he seems to enjoy the company of 16 year old schoolgirls in very short skirts.

78530 ▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Gillian, 2, #353 of 841 🔗

um … who doesn’t?

78705 ▶▶ karenovirus, replying to Basics, #354 of 841 🔗

Daily Express giving Sturgeon a kicking over this but the report is mostly of tweets by the outraged, some from SNP members though.

78295 TJN, replying to TJN, 53, #355 of 841 🔗

Incredibly almost, here in the first week of August 2020 it is possible to say with no exaggeration that Great Britain is on its way to becoming a failed state: social and economic collapse.

Unless Johnson comes to his senses, or someone removes him, with the menagerie of madmen currently holding sway that is where we are heading.

78305 ▶▶ Moomin, replying to TJN, 9, #356 of 841 🔗

Agreed! It’s mental.

78335 ▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to TJN, 7, #357 of 841 🔗

Agree completely. Scary times.

78375 ▶▶ Lockdown Truth, replying to TJN, 9, #358 of 841 🔗


78312 annie, replying to annie, 21, #359 of 841 🔗

Zombieville town council has come up with a complete Covid Safety package for every household.
It gives full instructions so that you can safely

  • demolish your own house
  • incinerate all your possessions
  • safely destroy your clothes
  • permanently sanitise your skin with sulphuric acid
  • encase your entire body in an impenetrable hazmat suit
  • engraft a permanent mask over your mouth and nose, leaving a small re-sealable, sanitisable hole for the delivery of liquid nutrition
  • perform an autotrachaeotomy so that you can breathe (in moderation)
  • for an extra charge we can arrange for your children to be incinerated in our hygienic municipal Tophet. No more worrying about Covid in schools or universities!

Acceptance of this offer is compulsory.

78437 ▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to annie, 1, #360 of 841 🔗

Do they drain you bank account of any excess funds just for good measure?

78318 Laura Suckling, 30, #361 of 841 🔗

Very happy to report no customers in my local shop wearing masks. When I went in earlier, a guy said “you ok luv” meaning leaning over me at the booze fridge “you know social distancing”, I informed him I’d had enough of it all. Happy to report he agreed.

78328 Che Strazio, replying to Che Strazio, 13, #362 of 841 🔗

My son was offered a return to school which we turned down. He was offered a 1.5 hrs/wk support session with a teacher who might not be qualified in the subjects he is undertaking for his A levels.
We kindly declined on the basis of:
1) No real lesson was taking place.
2) His entry might be denied if more students than expected turned up.
3) My child has 0 chances of dying but the psychological impact of a 1 way system, constant sanitiser, no interaction with fellow prisoners allowed, even outside the premises at permitted social distancing rules. (He is a meningitis survivor, incidentally! That’s F’ing scary!)
4) The fear of having to isolate at the point of lockdown ease (and potential finacial consequences of his parents not being able to work…i.e. how many holidays can we take to accomodate these hypochondriacs?!).

My son had gone into the school as a yr 13 but the school decided that he would attend yr 12 for 2 subjects as he had previously been working on materials from different exam boards than offered at his current school (we now understand it was about getting 2 yrs funding).

All throughout lockdown until end of term my son received 0, zero, zilch, nihil lessons.

The latest discussions about older teenagers spreading the covid plague have put the nail in the coffin and he has decided to apply to the OU. My son believes that, given the potential restrictions and guidance, academic achievement would only be allowed in private schools. His dream had been to go to Newcastle/Southampton/Leeds Uni or to the Dyson Institute to study Engineering.

78347 ▶▶ PoshPanic, replying to Che Strazio, 7, #363 of 841 🔗

What this is doing to kids in general, but this age group in particular, is just beyond criminal. They are literally having their hopes of a future, snatched away in their minds. This can’t continue.

Do you know any teachers that might be able to help him think through his options? There are some good ones out there, who are just as angry as the rest of us.

78405 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Che Strazio, 1, #364 of 841 🔗

Good luck to your son.

Have you thought about getting private tutors for each of his subjects? Worked for mine for GCSE level maths because the school teacher was rubbish.

Also got lessons to help my granddaughter when she moved from Hampshire and turned out to be way behind her Yorkshire classmates. It was good value for an hour per week.

A level tutors should be very effective.

78433 ▶▶ JulieR, replying to Che Strazio, 7, #365 of 841 🔗

My daughter just finished Y12, had very little online tuition, then at the end of June she was offered 2 days at school. She got really excited. But after the first day she came home very sad and said that she would not go again. The school put 5 people from her year in a huge room, desks 5 m apart. None of the others did her subjects so she didn’t even know them well and it was difficult to talk anyway as they could not walk around. One of her teachers poped in for 5 min chat, another just asked her if she had any problems. The rest of the time they were sitting there with their laptops doing nothing. I was so disappointed for her. This is one of the best state school in the country. Why couldn’t they do a few proper lessons with discussions as her subjects are humanity?
She has decided not to apply to university as she couldn’t visit any and take a gap year.

78472 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to JulieR, 1, #366 of 841 🔗

Sounds like detention but not of The Breakfast Club variety.

78542 ▶▶▶ Jonathan Palmer, replying to JulieR, 1, #367 of 841 🔗

She was lucky.My 2 children who sit exams next year.second wave permitting ,have had half a hour each with a teacher neither of them know,since lockdown.Its an absolute disgrace

78528 ▶▶ annie, replying to Che Strazio, 2, #368 of 841 🔗

The OU will do as well for your son as a y university would normally, and a hundred times better as things are now.
When thus incredible insanity is over he may choose to do a postgrad at a conventional university, and he won’t have had his heart, mind and soul fucked by the craven shits now running our seats of lesrning.

78332 Major Panic, 3, #369 of 841 🔗

Latest offering from my department of shit ideas…

A cartoon of a scared panicking coronavirus with the hint of the Boris and a clown about it – being punched by a union jack boxing gloved fist (may be Winston Churchill’s)

With the words “take back control”

78333 PoshPanic, replying to PoshPanic, 15, #370 of 841 🔗

I haven’t done a mask report on here yet, but what I saw today, beggars belief and is deserving of a description.

Waiting to pull out at a junction, in a residential street, that had kids playing in it. A smartly dressed woman passed in her car, fully masked. The fact she was masked, whilst texting sent me into a Derek & Clive level swearathon.

I wonder if the text was telling someone how much she cares about every life saved?

78408 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to PoshPanic, 4, #371 of 841 🔗

Muzzled man walked out of post office, got in car, removed muzzle – and lit a cigarette!

78517 ▶▶▶ PoshPanic, replying to Cheezilla, 2, #372 of 841 🔗

About right. Maybe he was taking his treatment, according to the latest science?

78343 davews, 7, #373 of 841 🔗

Another nice walk along the Thames in London today, round the Isle of Dogs. Depressed to see lots of kids wearing masks on the train – but more families on the train so maybe that is a good thing.

Lunch at the Gun near East India dock, very nice and although quite pricey as a pub lunch I got the government £10 discount (automatically added to the bill). The chap at the door had a scrap of paper on which he scribbled down my name and phone number all mixed up with the others, he kept mishearing and I made sure what he ended up with was not my phone number…. I felt like cheekily asking him if he was just going to put in the bin at the end of the day, it hardly looked like an official record. He wasn’t masked but both waitresses were and seemed to sanitise their hands before doing anything – get salt and pepper sachets for me, sanitise hands first, ridiculous. But their verandah area (great view of the O2 etc) was fairly full.

78346 GetaGrip, replying to GetaGrip, 12, #374 of 841 🔗

We now have a lockdown in Aberdeen, which should come as no surprise as Sturgeon has been itching to impose one – being, no doubt, a bit pissed off that Bojo spoiled her record of getting in first with the authoritarian diktats, with those recent local lockdowns in northern England.

The pattern is worrying.
A few more positive tests, as a result of (probably) a few more people who haven’t yet had the virus getting tested = kneejerk lockdown, despite no uptick in admissions or deaths = local businesses and economy get another kick. It’s economic death by a thousand cuts.

The latest on the PCR test limitations is concerning.

I wonder – in Autumn, when the other 5 or 6 coronavirus colds which do the rounds each winter reappear, can we expect to see more false positives as a result of coronavirus RNA similarities and cross-reaction?

The only certainty in any of this is that we can rely on our politicians to do anything other than implement a measured, considered response, whatever happens.

78363 ▶▶ Basics, replying to GetaGrip, 6, #375 of 841 🔗

Short chat with fervant snp supporter today. I mentioned the numbers in Germany.. well! Apparently it is amazing how so many go for a conspiracy theory (it remained undisclosed what the conspiracy or theory were). The lock down has been enjoyable and not affected people in the slightest, further, a few people have remarked how much they like the quiet life. I clearly put your good points above across with a reasoned prospect of the bleak winter to come. These points were countered with a suggestion that maybe their attitude was really selfish but bugger it because they were sure they woukd not want to ever get the virus. A quick mention of the actual risk and I was walking away seething. This particular snp supporter has broken every rule going themselves. It’s a tedious aspect to this political virusing we are subjected to.

#resignsturgeon is trending at least.

78350 John Galt, replying to John Galt, 7, #376 of 841 🔗

Based on other countries making masks mandatory in all public places at all times, I think it’s going to happen here as well. I’m unsure when, but I’d say within the month.

Spain and Australia are already doing it. As per the post, Amsterdam have made it mandatory in parts. France are making more outdoor places mandatory. In parts of America it’s mandatory everywhere in public.

It’s only a matter of time until the same happens to us, I fear.

78383 ▶▶ Dan Clarke, replying to John Galt, 5, #377 of 841 🔗

If everyone or even the majority refused to comply they couldnt arrest fine the lot, people are being way too compliant.

78407 ▶▶ JulieR, replying to John Galt, 4, #378 of 841 🔗

But it doesn’t mean people are complying.
Didn’t Netherlands prime minister said that they don’t believe in masks?
I am going to the Netherlands soon and will report.

78352 Montag Smith, replying to Montag Smith, 9, #379 of 841 🔗

The Nick Tiggle BBC piece isn’t that robust and is blissfully unaware of the irony:

“Another day, another worrying coronavirus headline.”

They’re one of the many news outlets that has been posting worrying headlines for months, often without sufficient, if any, context.

And still they can’t help themselves:

“It gives the impression the infection is raging in these areas when what is really happening – with the exception of Leicester – is that action is being taken early to prevent the virus spiralling out of control.”

I don’t know why they think the virus would spiral out of control now we’re at the end of the epidemic. Besides, the studies that have been done into lockdowns have shown they probably didn’t affect the trajectory of the epidemic anyway.

78367 ▶▶ Drawde927, replying to Montag Smith, 5, #380 of 841 🔗

I thought an article as positive as this from the BBC was a definite step in the right direction, and gave them the benefit of the doubt until I got to this bit:

Local crackdowns are a sign of strength – we are acting early. Another tendency in recent weeks has been to view the need for local action as a sign of failure.

Enough said! I would more say that I view them as a failure since there isn’t any need to take action, especially with the latest ones in NW England where the data actually shows a steady decline, not rise (see Carl Heneghan’s article) .

Regarding your last point, I think a lot of people either aren’t aware of or don’t believe the data and studies indicating we’re at the end of the epidemic. I’d guess BBC journalists do know about them, but it isn’t part of the official narrative! A lot of people genuinely think that the majority of the UK population is still at risk of infection, and that any local outbreak could get out of control without measures.

78396 ▶▶ Dan Clarke, replying to Montag Smith, 2, #381 of 841 🔗

So its all about keeping up the hysteria about the vaccine. Apparently in Aberdeen, where Nicola has shut down they have a big pharma company involved in vaccine production

78355 PoshPanic, replying to PoshPanic, 2, #382 of 841 🔗

Could a child being killed by an asteroid strike, be as likely as Cov19?


78622 ▶▶ Mark, replying to PoshPanic, #383 of 841 🔗

That stuff looks highly questionable to me. Those odds (of being killed by an asteroid) look way overstated. The source for the article says: “ It is estimated that in any given year the odds that you will die from an impact of an asteroid or comet are between 1 in 3,000 and 1 in 250,000 “. I’m not buying that for a moment.

For comparison, here’s what Astronomy magazine has to say :

researchers still have not found a single confirmed case of death by space rock

78357 Sam Vimes, replying to Sam Vimes, 36, #384 of 841 🔗

Nipped into Home Bargains this tea time, staff 50/50. Customers, a mother and two daughters unmasked. Then! Rugged Handsome Guy joined the queue behind me, unmasked. I am proud to relay our conversation:

SV: “Good to see another bare face.”
RHG: “Fuck ’em”.
SV: “Exactly”.

Went home very happy.

78370 ▶▶ Proudtobeapeasant, replying to Sam Vimes, 8, #385 of 841 🔗

In my local Home Bargains we don’t get Rugged Handsome guys, just mostly fatties. [Can I say that here?]

78384 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Proudtobeapeasant, 5, #386 of 841 🔗

fatties. [Can I say that here?]

Since Toby’s the founder of the Free Speech Union , I guess this is Liberty Hall; you can spit on the mat and call the cat a bastard.

78388 ▶▶▶ Major Panic, replying to Proudtobeapeasant, #387 of 841 🔗

No handsome fatties?

78466 ▶▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Proudtobeapeasant, #388 of 841 🔗

I think people with slightly increased gravity might be more PC.

78364 Telpin, 4, #389 of 841 🔗

Whoever is live on Talk Radio right now is absolutely singing the sceptic’s tune. Seeds of hope?

78365 Bart Simpson, replying to Bart Simpson, 1, #390 of 841 🔗

Great post and comments. Perhaps we can also do our very own Retailer, Pub, Restaurant, Museum Hall of Shame:


78527 ▶▶ Jonathan Palmer, replying to Bart Simpson, 2, #391 of 841 🔗

Looked at another thread and saw kirstie Allsopp encoraging workers to go back to the office.Most of the replies are disparaging though

78743 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Jonathan Palmer, 1, #392 of 841 🔗

Saw that too. She does talk a lot of sense but because many people don’t like her, they shoot the messenger and not really engage with the message.

78366 Telpin, replying to Telpin, 3, #393 of 841 🔗

Trevor Kavanagh on Talk Radio just now – doing a sterling job. Worth a listen.

78415 ▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to Telpin, 3, #394 of 841 🔗

TalkRADIO does generally seem far more open to alternative views than LBC, James O’Brien has lost my listenership during this mess.

78369 Proudtobeapeasant, 12, #395 of 841 🔗

Once again I went shopping in Sainsburys, Waitrose and Home Bargains today (what does that say about me….) without a mask. I was slightly heartened to see approximately 3 teenagers not wearing them – one on his own and 2 accompanied by 2 mask-wearing others. Also one lady. but I still wanted to shout at all the mask wearers (many of whom constantly fiddle with them) – “Just WHY are you wearing one?” I’m thinking of buying a plain t-shirt and writing on it “The government says you don’t have to wear a mask if it causes you “severe distress”.

I do object to the fact that in Sainsburys one minute the tannoy is announcing that some disablilites are unseen and therefore don’t have a go at someone not wearing a mask, and then shortly after they remind you to cover your face.

78371 Che Strazio, replying to Che Strazio, 1, #396 of 841 🔗

Can I urge caution about Koch postulates?!
Sequencing has opened a portal to the dimension of microbiomes and harping on about Koch is as much endorsing The science of R.
Data is the only way forward! (Scientific process is always negative:”Null hypothesis!”)

78373 ▶▶ IMoz, replying to Che Strazio, 2, #397 of 841 🔗

What sound scientific principle do you base your urging upon?

Data is a tool, not the meaning, you must’ve heard of the GIGO principle?

You want to live by the data, ask Goldman Sachs about their 25-sigma event!

78459 ▶▶▶ Che Strazio, replying to IMoz, #398 of 841 🔗

Null Hypothesis

78501 ▶▶▶▶ IMoz, replying to Che Strazio, #399 of 841 🔗

Null hypothesis, you say? Great, null hypothesis is always “no difference!” So are you saying that introduction of SARS-CoV-2 agent makes no difference? Love it when people try to use “clever phrases” when they have no idea what they actually mean!

78379 ▶▶ DocRC, replying to Che Strazio, 1, #400 of 841 🔗

so I don’t quite get your drift. What bit of Koch’s postulates appears to be the problem here? After all it does appear sensible that we should be clear what the (putative) infective organism is and that it can isolated be shown to cause the disease it is supposed to cause.

78441 ▶▶▶ Commander Jameson, replying to DocRC, #401 of 841 🔗

The postulate that the isolated organism must be shown to cause disease in previously healthy host animals.

Any volunteers?

No, thought not.

78597 ▶▶▶▶ IMoz, replying to Commander Jameson, #402 of 841 🔗

Like I said, once you purify it, we can talk.

78455 ▶▶▶ Che Strazio, replying to DocRC, 1, #403 of 841 🔗

Why would you attack a fellow sceptic? A culture dish is a thing of the past in modern microbiology…It’s a about sequences and that is what we should question! I was questioning the value PCR 30 yrs ago!

78460 ▶▶▶▶ Commander Jameson, replying to Che Strazio, #404 of 841 🔗

I think they are from Brigade whatever, spreading dissent.
Of course you can’t ever meet Koch’s postulates with human diseases, so let’s spread some dissent, and doubt, and make the lockdown skeptics look like loony anti-vaxxers who deny Covid even exists because it doesn’t meet the first draft of some 100 year-old criteria.

78484 ▶▶▶▶▶ Che Strazio, replying to Commander Jameson, 1, #405 of 841 🔗

Thank you!

78529 ▶▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Commander Jameson, #406 of 841 🔗

Yes. Pissing in the knowledge pool is another name for it. I don’t mean IMoz or any of the commenters here who are all cool and I have no problem with. But that off-guardian article called something like “PCR Tests are Scientifically Meaningless” was surely a deliberate troll of some sort.

78374 Recusant, replying to Recusant, 13, #407 of 841 🔗

I don’t think it’s to do with being a bedwetter. Just as it is hard to convince anyone that it is safe to go back to work if they don’t like work, it’s very hard to convince Mumsnetters to send children back to school when they like being at home with them (and telling work that they can’t come in due to childcare).

There is no Covid, we are at the stage where people are reluctant to give up the lifestyle they have become accustomed to, especially when someone else is paying for it.

78392 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Recusant, 10, #408 of 841 🔗

I can see that, up to a point. I’m a selfish bastard, and all this crap hasn’t affected me economically, and being a misanthrope things like distancing don’t bother me overly. But how can any thinking person want to live in a country where the government is micromanaging the lives of its citizens on the basis of LIES?

78376 Steeve, replying to Steeve, 1, #409 of 841 🔗

This camp site is good to go but not for tents, trailer tents or small campervans. They have not opened the shower block or toilets – Great!
Now open with limited facilities and pitches forself-contained touring caravan and motorhome units with their own integrated bathroom and kitchen facilities only.Unfortunately we are unable to accept tents, trailer tents or small campervans this season due to restrictions and extra measures in place.
The toilet / shower block is remaining closed for now. We feel that this is the safest option during thispost-pandemic to safeguard the health and well being of both our guests and ourselves.
Booking enquires via online booking form or email only.
Only advance pre-arranged bookings will be accepted on site.Non-bookings will be refused entry.
We are pleased to have the ‘WE’RE GOOD TO GO’ certificate from Visit Wales and look forward to welcoming you back safely!


Nant Mill Touring caravan and Tenting Park is a long and well established traditional style family-owned and family-run site conveniently located on the beautiful North Wales Coast half a mile east of Prestatyn town centre close to the sandy beaches with views of the Irish sea and back drop of the Clwydian Hillside.

Nant Mill was once a working farm and mill, hence full of character with the old stone buildings, duck pond that fed the mill and small flowing stream. The area is rich of history and the surrounding countryside offers walks of outstanding natural beauty and nature reserves.

78391 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Steeve, 1, #410 of 841 🔗

Bring your own spade – handgel essential.
Very hygienic!

78445 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Steeve, #411 of 841 🔗

Does that mean that visitors will have to bring their own shovels and pails to dig their own latrines?

The lack of toilet facilities is ridiculous and scandalous. It will only bring litter to the place and promote cholera and hepatitis A!

78458 ▶▶▶ Steeve, replying to Bart Simpson, 2, #412 of 841 🔗

No that is not the case. They are only accepting bookings from touring caravan and mobile home owners with their own self contained toilets and kitchens! Since they have chosen to keep the toilet blocks closed they are not accepting bookings for tents and small campervans with no onboard toilet. Basically very posh camping only!

78553 ▶▶▶▶ Mr Dee, replying to Steeve, #413 of 841 🔗

Yes, that’s exactly what I saw.

78560 ▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Steeve, #414 of 841 🔗

Oh well. That’s better then.

I always panic when I hear of no toilets because that would be one guarantee that I would never set foot in a place that didn’t have loos.

78551 ▶▶▶ Mr Dee, replying to Bart Simpson, 1, #415 of 841 🔗

No litter visible, at least not last friday. Toilets open down at the beach. All very normal and civilised.

78547 ▶▶ Mr Dee, replying to Steeve, 4, #416 of 841 🔗

I walked past that campsite last Friday – it’s down the hill from my parents. Looked full, but only caravans. Prestatyn was lovely and normal down at the beach – hundreds of people enjoying the sand and surf. Not a mask in sight. Minimal social distancing.
Concerning toilets, the other day in the park in Chester the public loos were open – sign outside saying the council had decided to open them but you entered at your own risk as far as catching covid was concerned. Hats off to chester city council for a sensible policy, letting the public decide the risk for themselves.

78377 Commander Jameson, replying to Commander Jameson, 4, #417 of 841 🔗

Just a minor point on the aspect of the PCR test being “virus-specific reliable”. A positive PCR result will show (plus the unknown, but probably not very high, false positive rate*) current or recent infection with Covid-19. The point that the FDA guidance rather inelegantly makes is just that the patient’s symptoms may be a result of one of the concomitant infections rather than Covid. It doesn’t mean that the virus isn’t (or wasn’t recently) present and is contributing nothing to the patient’s problems.

*: Incidentally, those false positive rates, for any kind of medical test, are there irrespective of the background incidence of the disease. They make it very difficult to screen, using any kind of test, for rare diseases, as you end up with a higher ratio of false positives to true positive results, which ends up in a lot of resources wasted (and anxiety caused) in doing more intensive investigations.

It’s also worth pointing out that Koch’s postulates set an extremely high bar. While we like having as much evidence as possible in science, it is at the end of the day a probabilistic endeavour, and Occam’s razor has to suffice in many circumstances where we would ideally prefer a higher standard of evidence.

78386 ▶▶ IMoz, replying to Commander Jameson, 3, #418 of 841 🔗

The reason why Koch’s postulates set an extremely high bar is quite simple: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, a principle that seems to have been totally ignored by the fear mongerers.

You say, PCR is “virus-specific reliable,” can you give me a reference where purification of SARS-CoV-2 was described, please?

78401 ▶▶▶ Commander Jameson, replying to IMoz, #419 of 841 🔗

But it’s not an extraordinary claim to say that there is a new viral infection, mainly of the lower airways, going around. That claim is not really disputable. The suspect organism can be isolated from at least the overwhelming majority of patients with the symptoms, which is good enough to blame the symptoms on that virus.

Koch’s postulates also require that the isolated and cultured organism reproduce the disease in new test subjects. That won’t happen as we are a little short of volunteers willing to be infected with Covid isolates (as with HIV isolates, etc).

78410 ▶▶▶▶ IMoz, replying to Commander Jameson, 5, #420 of 841 🔗

It’s not an extraordinary claim to say that people are ill.

It is an extraordinary claim to say that an illness is caused by a new virus.

It is an extraordinary claim to say that there are asymptomatic spreaders.

It is an extraordinary claim to say that there is no immunity against a virus.

Need I go on?…

The fact is, many claims are made, not a signle one is actually backed by an assay!

Why do you say there won’t me many volunteers who’d want to be infected by purified virus? Plenty are willing to get infected with an experimental fast-tracked vaccine?..

78416 ▶▶▶▶▶ Commander Jameson, replying to IMoz, 3, #421 of 841 🔗

No, you needn’t go on because the claims you claim are extraordinary really aren’t (with the exception of “no immunity against a virus”, which no one believes), in any doubt in the medical community. There are just some people in the world, you being one of them, that no amount of throwing of evidence at would convince.

If you’re interested in proving Koch’s postulates with HIV, I can set up a trial and put your name forward. I just suspect that all the ethics committees, seeing as they have been bought by Bill Gates and Evil Big Pharma who just want to make billions by injecting you with mercury and controlling your thoughtwaves, wouldn’t let it happen.

It’s idiots like you, spreading the implication that lockdown skeptics are all wacko anti-vaxxers who believe Covid doesn’t even exist that are damaging the cause. Perhaps you’re from Brigate whateveritis?

78426 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ IMoz, replying to Commander Jameson, #422 of 841 🔗

Why are you conflating HIV and SARS-CoV-2 all of a sudden?

78428 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Commander Jameson, replying to IMoz, 1, #423 of 841 🔗

Because it doesn’t fulfil Koch’s postulates (seeing no one has ever volunteered to be infected by a purified sample), so by your criteria doesn’t exist and we shouldn’t worry about it.

You could volunteer to do it with Covid first if you prefer.

In fact I’d advise you to get Covid over and done with before infecting yourself with HIV in the service of the science you you clearly support.

78432 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ IMoz, replying to Commander Jameson, 2, #424 of 841 🔗

Come back when you have purified SARS-CoV-2 and a decent enough cash offer, then if I have no adaptive immunity to it, we can talk.

78447 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Commander Jameson, replying to IMoz, #425 of 841 🔗
78461 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ IMoz, replying to Commander Jameson, 1, #426 of 841 🔗

You seem to be confusing virus purification with nucleic acid sequence…

Incidentally, when asked about virus purification the authors of the paper that gave that sequence said: “[We show] an image of sedimented virus particles, not purified ones.” 

78462 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Commander Jameson, replying to IMoz, 1, #427 of 841 🔗

Y’see, there’s a name for this tactic. It escapes me – someone help me. Lawyers know it well. Deny something that is plainly obvious by drowning your opponent in an exponentially-increasing number of exponentially more trivial and irrelevant objections.

I am sure Arthur Schopenhauer covered it in his magnificent tome “Die Kunst, Recht zu behalten”. Shame my copy is in a packing box right now.

78467 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ IMoz, replying to Commander Jameson, 1, #428 of 841 🔗

Thanks for admitting to what you’re doing! Yet, despite all of that, you still can’t show that the virus has been purified, and you are right, it is patently obvious!

78613 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ James Leary #KBF, replying to Commander Jameson, #429 of 841 🔗

That’s the method James O’Brien uses to subdue his callers.

78661 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Commander Jameson, #430 of 841 🔗

You can find Schopenhauer’s books and essays at the Gutenberg Project. Free! There you go, knock yourself out!

78468 ▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Commander Jameson, 1, #431 of 841 🔗

It has been done in monkeys and one can read about it in the vaccine trial papers.

78393 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Commander Jameson, #432 of 841 🔗

Because it was never intended to be used as a diagnostic test!

78394 ▶▶▶ Commander Jameson, replying to Cheezilla, 1, #433 of 841 🔗

I would dispute the claim that PCR cannot be used diagnostically, having myself diagnosed many hundreds of patients suspected of having heritable diseases using PCR.

78411 ▶▶▶▶ IMoz, replying to Commander Jameson, #434 of 841 🔗

So you used patient’s DNA, and heritable disease is specific to genome… You used PCR as a tool to amplify a definitive DNA , not diagnose, then you identified specific genes.

You do know that SARS-CoV-2 is an RNA virus, right, so you using PCR to amplify patients’ DNA to analyse afterwards is utterly irrelevant here. Unlike with ARMS-PCR, you don’t end up with a picturesque polyacrylamide gel for RT-PCR for SARS-CoV-2.

78424 ▶▶▶▶▶ Commander Jameson, replying to IMoz, -1, #435 of 841 🔗


We did actually have RT-PCR, even back in my day. Difficult to do, as your skin secretes RNAse all over the place, destroying your samples. I’m pretty sure the technology has improved in the last 20 years.

You’ll be complaining next that the results are dependent on cycle number and that you can get false negatives because of squelching. No pleasing some poeple.

78429 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ IMoz, replying to Commander Jameson, 1, #436 of 841 🔗

I’ll only be complaining because your answers are squelching… but quenching isn’t the biggest cause of false negatives in RT-PCR, if you don’t know what that is then you are patently out of your league. But when someone starts an argument with a “Yawn,” I’m done.

78446 ▶▶▶▶ p02099003, replying to Commander Jameson, 1, #437 of 841 🔗

The inventor of the technique said it wasn’t fit to be a diagnostic tool, it was developed as a qualitative test rather than a quantitative test. He also stated that it would provide a positive result if there was a virus or viral debris. Ironically he was talking about the test being used for detecting HIV. The test may detect a virus but it cannot identify the number of viruses a person has.

78453 ▶▶▶▶▶ Commander Jameson, replying to p02099003, #438 of 841 🔗

Well we use qualitative tests based on a threshold for pregnancy and the world is quite happy with that. A qualitative test (based on threshold) is perfectly adequate in the circumstances, infection being an essentially binary event (you are or aren’t). The fact that it isn’t perfectly accurate 100% of the time isn’t a valid criticism, since that applies to all tests. Including pregnancy tests.

78451 ▶▶ mhcp, replying to Commander Jameson, 1, #439 of 841 🔗

The bar is the flu and what we do about that. Which is close to bugger all.

Only when you get an order of magnitude difference in deaths do you start to think about doing something else. So yes Koch’s postulates may not be fulfilled to everyone’s liking and even rigour, but the Null Hypothesis is still being ignored in favour of the Pascal’s Wager of the Precautionary Principle.

78464 ▶▶ guy153, replying to Commander Jameson, 3, #440 of 841 🔗

Yes. Well explained. I think it’s important to bust these myths or there’s a risk that skeptics end up being considered cranks.

The argument that UK pillar 2 tests are basically junk is very easy to make a strong case for without resorting to extremist skepticism.

As for the Koch postulates we’ve just had a huge epidemic, and are in an ongoing global pandemic, in which it’s been obvious that there is a strong correlation between SARS2 and COVID-19. SARS2 has been fully sequenced dozens if not hundreds of times. We can see from the genome that it’s a coronavirus, closely related to SARS1 and other coronaviruses. We’ve found it in people’s lungs in after autopsies after they died of viral pneumonia. There are electron microscope images of it (rather pretty ones I posted a link yesterday).

There is zero evidence that COVID-19 is caused by anything else. As for 5G it’s not even remotely plausible how that would be supposed to work.

78487 ▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to guy153, 2, #441 of 841 🔗

It’s a matter of scale. Is there a subset of people with flu-like/cold symptoms who actually have COVID-19? Yes and of them there appears to be serious damage. But are these sufficiently large to meet the standard of the flu. No.

So why behave like it is the plague?

You can see the confirmation bias in the way data is vague, symptoms are attributed, advice for health professionals is ambiguous to say the least. I’ve heard that this is so we don’t “under report occurrences”. But that just spreads the uncertainty.

Also saying there is a correlation doesn’t mean much if you aren’t measuring exactly what is going on. The same horseshit, and it is horseshit, is done with climate science. It works with vague data where you can contort things with statistical models, as opposed to having good clear signal to noise.

So do I think there is COVID-19? Looks very likely. But in no way is it the calamity that is has been projected as.

78496 ▶▶▶▶ Commander Jameson, replying to mhcp, 2, #442 of 841 🔗

What we observe is, with something close to certainty, due to Covid-19.

What we should do about it, given what we now know about it and how good we have got (in a very short time) at treating the really bad cases, is definitely not any more lockdown, destruction of the economy, wrecking a generation’s education, etc.

78526 ▶▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to Commander Jameson, 1, #443 of 841 🔗

You should read Karl Popper. Not having falsifiabilty means you can say it’s anything.

Signal to noise is fundamentally important. Otherwise you attribute a model of what you see to data that includes other causes. And that leads to a whole host of bad outcomes.

I’ve said here before belief that climate science is roughly correct is the gateway drug to believing Covid is seriously bad. The source data for climate science has massive uncertainties but the processed data has less. Because it uses assumptions about the data, which cannot be applied to actions proposed.

78541 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Commander Jameson, replying to mhcp, 5, #444 of 841 🔗

Covid is there and it’s mildly bad. I suspect the _infection fatality rate_ will end up at about twice that of influenza. Of course, telling the population “ITS TWICE AS DEADLY AS [insert anything]” will have people demanding the entire world is shut down. I don’t know the answer to that problem of communicating reality truthfully to people who have lost all sense of proportion, lost sight of the inevitability of death, are incapable of cost-benefit analysis (thanks to all politicians ever for that one) and believe we just want to make money by killing their gran.

But these are two separate issues. The spectrum of damage cause by Covid (from outcome of asymptomatic to death), and on the other hand what should be done about it, especially in terms of population-wide restrictions.

My answer for the latter is close to that of mhcp, i.e. “between nothing and not very much, and certainly not this”.

78550 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to Commander Jameson, 2, #445 of 841 🔗

Yes I agree on that. We should have done very little, in fact nothing but get better data. Which is basically well within the means of the medical field. Sorry if it didn’t seem so. I’m just sick of the vagueries of reporting as it gives rise to all kinds of evils.

My issue is implying that broad brush of Covid has caused most of the deaths/cases. I don’t think that that is the case. The data doesn’t support it because the data was never taken with that precision. There’s a whole host of similar issues, common issues that have been swept up into one thing, primarily because of the measures that health professionals had to take (Panic blindness I think it’s called) but also because of the psychology of how it was presented. Persuasion techniques can make you think black is white. Every little assumption chips away at what is there and replaces it with what appears to be there.

A bit like the mask thing. A month ago it seems over the top to most. But now the narrative changes and it doesn’t seem so. Yet nothing has changed. A few new papers means little. But you’ll still think about it

78570 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Commander Jameson, replying to mhcp, 5, #446 of 841 🔗

The proof of the pudding will be in overall excess mortaility at the end of the pandemic, except that is now confounded with lockdown, which will have both caused deaths, and prevented some from non-Covid causes (traffic accidents, perhaps).

But we do have to look, somehow, with less than perfect accuracy, and less than perfect comparability between different countries counting this in different ways* at what is going on in the meantime, because if this had ebola-style, or SARS-1-style mortality it would absolutely justify some pretty crazy public health response.

The problem is we now know it’s not on the scale of ebola. But someone told everyone it was before we were sure.

Unfortunately, in the absence of that massive wave of death, the entire thing has somehow been taken over, worldwide, by a massive, uncoordinated propaganda operation. The measurement of deaths and the reporting of it is not being driven by a dispassionate attempt to understand what is actually happening, but by something else. My field is the medicine, not the politics, but there is, to bastardise a phrase, some form of political-media complex that has backed itself into a corner and has nowhere to run, except reporting hospitalisations not deaths, then cases not hospitalisations, then positive tests not cases. They will be reporting “record test numbers” soon, as that will inevitably increase as deaths are decreasing to almost zero.

*: I can tell you, from the medical angle, it is really very hard to pin down a single cause of death for most people, or where there are many contributing factors to pick out a primary one. As a result the “with Covid” criterion does have some merits (as does including clinical diagnoses in the absence of tests we don’t want to waste on corpses), but it is going to lack direct comparability to anything else.

78588 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to Commander Jameson, 1, #447 of 841 🔗

As I’ve said below I’m a physicist/engineer who on many occasions has to determine if things are safe to use. Using the correct tools for the job is paramount. I have no doubt that you’re never going to get one cause on cases, but the response to putting Covid compared to flu or some other respiratory ailment is orders of magnitude difference. In that way the onus is to not put it if there is doubt. But that in itself is a circular argument as you can only reduce doubt if you were able to measure it properly in the first place.

First do no harm is also saying you don’t know. For natural sciences that’s a main ethical principle. It was always about data uncertainty and as other commenters have put the logical fallacy dangers of the Precautionary Principle take over.

78639 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bruno, replying to mhcp, 2, #448 of 841 🔗

If a doctor has an ill patient presenting after 2-3 weeks of breathlessness, describing chest pains like glass shards, and muscle weakness and fatigue (I’m trying to think of severe Covid19 type symptoms) would mhcp do nothing, i.e. take no steps to treat, but get better data, presumably a swab test? And if that were inconclusive, but patient was still deteriorating, what would he do then? I’m wondering if there’s a difference between the sort of things you’d do for a human being, namely try things which might help even if you’re not certain (and sometimes even if there’s a possibility they might do harm, as long as you obtain informed consent), and the sort of things you might do or refrain from doing in the field in which mhcp practises?

78736 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to Bruno, 2, #449 of 841 🔗

Sylvie, you still have to try and eliminate things otherwise your treatment may be ineffective or be damaging. Would I do nothing? I’m not a medical doctor but have been in the position as a patient with various ailments. I’ve had to fight against measures because the doctor wasn’t listening to what I was saying. They weren’t looking at the data. they become blinkered because of training: effect must have a treatable cause.

First do no harm means weighing up the effect of actions. And as we’ve seen iatrogenics is one of the biggest killers. So yes you would try and do whatever you could but you still need to weigh up harm.

Originally they did try and treat patients with acute symptoms and put them on ventilators. Look how that worked out. With more data they realised, this isn’t good and maybe those patients didn’t have this things called Covid.

In the grander scale no matter how insensitive it seems, yes you need to get accurate and precise data. Otherwise you end up doing more damage. In the evidence-based medicine school of thought, you also stick to the guidelines to get enough data to then examine, often with people getting more ill than hoped. Because it’s a law of numbers.

78806 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to mhcp, 2, #450 of 841 🔗

Medicine (and biology) are never as precise as physics or engineering. It’s all balancing probabilities. There is no manual or specification for the human body. This doesn’t mean we don’t know a lot about it and can’t treat things successfully but it’s rarely 100% black and white.

Some doctors are certainly sometimes guilty of jumping to conclusions and using the wrong treatments. Ventilating people too much was because it was assumed they had ARDS. But with Covid you can have hypoxia without ARDS (probably related to blood clotting) so blood thinners and bit of oxygen works better. So this is actually a case where a positive PCR test for Covid might guide a doctor to the better treatment. I think in practice for much of the epidemic there weren’t enough PCR tests and/or they took too long to be much use for treatment anyway. Doctors were diagnosing Covid without them.

There’s far more certainty that SARS2 causes Covid-19 than there is about the efficacy of HCQ (for example) or countless other drugs, treatments and tests in regular use. It’s all relative.

78599 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Commander Jameson, 1, #451 of 841 🔗

It’s a big subject, but among many strands the acceptance of a governmental right to manipulate our behaviour and censor our information “for the greater good” has really come back to bite us in the ass with a vengeance in this case. It’s something that can arguably be justified in a true emergency situation, but this is not that, was never likely to be, and was already evidently not, really quite early on.

But we have state funded and empowered bodies devoting considerable efforts to propagandising us, spreading fear and creating memes and clever put-downs to suppress dissent and to promote vigilanteism. Alongside that we have a global elite class running big media and big tech who are really very irrational in a number of ways, also pushing the same fear response for personal and political reasons.

It’s difficult to see a way out at the moment.

78609 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Commander Jameson, 1, #452 of 841 🔗

The proof of the pudding will be in overall excess mortaility at the end of the pandemic,

Sounds good, decisive, binary, undeniable. Let’s do it.

except that is now confounded with lockdown,


78508 ▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to mhcp, 1, #453 of 841 🔗

Commander Jameson gave a very good answer.

And while the lockdown was the ultimate in pig-headed ignorance and populist politics we should give credit where it’s due. A lot of very good work has been done on treatments and understanding the disease that will continue to save lives in the future with this and similar diseases. A disproportionate response I know but you might as well accept whatever good comes out of it.

78512 ▶▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to guy153, 1, #454 of 841 🔗

The correct response was do nothing. Get better data. You are showing your bias assuming things that have not been demonstrated.

I am an experimental physicist by training (PhD) and a professional engineer. One of the fields I have worked in for over 20 years is validation and verification for aerospace and space systems. Included in that is metrology (the science of measurement). I’ve had to measure phenomenon right at the cutting edge of precision for spacecraft. You get to learn a lot about what can and can’t be done.

The dying with and dying of argument alone has not been demonstrated.

78615 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to mhcp, 3, #455 of 841 🔗

And “dying” isn’t even a single thing. An 85 year-old having their demise brought forward by a couple of months isn’t really in the same category as a forty year old committing suicide because his business has gone under, yet in many reckonings they both have equal value.

78513 ▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to guy153, #456 of 841 🔗

Some good came from Mengeke’s experiments, toomp, they say.
It doesn’t exoneratedp Mengeke.

78519 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to annie, #457 of 841 🔗

This isn’t quite the same though! The people designing treatments aren’t doing anything unethical. They’re just enjoying the funding and extra attention they’re getting.

78676 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to annie, #458 of 841 🔗


78538 ▶▶▶▶▶ Castendo, replying to guy153, #459 of 841 🔗

I don’t see anything good in politicians giving orders about how health facilities should be managed. Probably the ‘good work’ could have been excelent work if they step aside.

78741 ▶▶ steve, replying to Commander Jameson, #460 of 841 🔗

“It doesn’t mean that the virus isn’t (or wasn’t recently) present and is contributing nothing to the patient’s problems.“

I theory you may be correct however right now the government and media are running a dystopian propaganda program based on This very very dodgy data.

There was a handy guide in the DT a day ago with a list of possible symptoms in about 30 “possibles”


78776 ▶▶ Ewan Duffy, replying to Commander Jameson, 1, #461 of 841 🔗

Commander Jameson of the 77th Brigade, I assume?

78934 ▶▶▶ Commander Jameson, replying to Ewan Duffy, #462 of 841 🔗

Thanks for the laugh! I think the 77th are on my case, actually.

It’s the name of the default player in an ancient computer game, called “Elite”.

78961 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Commander Jameson, #463 of 841 🔗

Why would anyone (not 77th) call themselves ‘Commander’ on this site ?

79052 ▶▶▶ Commander Jameson, replying to JohnB, #464 of 841 🔗

Clearly you can’t read.

78378 IanE, replying to IanE, 7, #465 of 841 🔗

I am not a number. I am a free man!

Will this ever end?

78385 ▶▶ Laura Suckling, replying to IanE, #466 of 841 🔗

I wish I still had my number 6 badge from the 1970’s.

78534 ▶▶▶ Mr Dee, replying to Laura Suckling, 1, #467 of 841 🔗

You can get them on the Portmeirion website. I got myself a great ‘I am not a number…’ t-shirt from there only last week.

78404 ▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to IanE, 1, #468 of 841 🔗

You wish.

Who is number One?

78539 ▶▶▶ Laura Suckling, replying to Dave #KBF, 1, #469 of 841 🔗

Bill Gates, apparently.

78677 ▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Dave #KBF, #470 of 841 🔗

We are.

78593 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to IanE, #471 of 841 🔗

It would be interesting to see the correlation between being a true fan of that series and being a Covid sceptic. Pretty high I would imagine.

78692 ▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Barney McGrew, 1, #472 of 841 🔗

You betcha!

78381 Farinances, replying to Farinances, 8, #473 of 841 🔗

Oh my god, I just watched the lady reading out the care home worker’s statement.


(Beware you need to log in to the pit of depravity that is Facefuck to see it)

P.S. If you have a relative in a care home- GET THEM OUT NOW

78398 ▶▶ Dan Clarke, replying to Farinances, #474 of 841 🔗

Have those responsible seen it, any comments from anyone?

78399 ▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to Farinances, #475 of 841 🔗

It is truly appalling.

78478 ▶▶ Tenchy, replying to Farinances, 1, #476 of 841 🔗

Just watched it. I don’t do Facebook, but something called Facebook Watch loaded when I clicked the link (can’t look at the comments though). It’s hard work, and the video transcription at the bottom of the screen is poor (automatically generated, I’m guessing). Let me summarise it:

In the name of the pandemic, old people in care homes are being murdered by the NHS and their carers.

Facebook users, share this as widely as possible. It’s the sort of outrage that should bring down a government.

78636 ▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Farinances, #477 of 841 🔗

I wonder if the government would block anyone from doing that? A woman with an ailing brother living in a hospice is talking to Richie Allen this very minute about her not being allowed to visit him.

78387 Cheezilla, replying to Cheezilla, 9, #478 of 841 🔗

Just back from my weekly Aldi shop. Not encouraging.
I was the only one unmuzzled – including the staff, though no-one seemed to take any notice of me.

The checkout operator was the young airhead one who was wearing rubber gloves and a mask long before they were mandated.

I put my shopping on a suspiciously damp conveyor belt – complete with wipe lines.

Before she served the customer in front of me, she sprayed all the checkout area liberally with some stinky stuff that ironically made me want to cough. She apologised for making him wait while she wiped it all down – it was because of this weird year, apparently.

When it was my turn, I asked if she’d just come on shift and had to spray between operators. She told me they had to “clean regularly”.

I said no-one had sprayed before and it was getting on my chest and I was desperate to leave the shop – which was true. She said something about getting close to closing time (it was 8pm and they shut at 10). I said I always shop at that time and no-one had done it before.

She kept apologising and I graciously kept saying “Don’t apologise, you don’t make the stupid rules.”

As I was leaving, another member of staff was spraying and cleaning the packing bench at the side of the shop. I’m thinking this is probably because of the local lockdown. I was going to post some used batteries in the receptacle but abandoned the bagful and fled the shop.

A couple got to the shop door and realised they’d left their masks in the car, so went back to get them. A very elderly gent pulled up next to me and proceeded to don a visor becore collecting his shopping bag from his boot. Better than a muzzle I guess.

I coughed all the way home. I must stress at this point that I do not have allergies, asthma or anything breathing related. KH it made me really feel your pain!

78706 ▶▶ karenovirus, replying to Cheezilla, 1, #479 of 841 🔗

Stick to convenience stores, they’ve stopped bothering.

78389 Bart Simpson, replying to Bart Simpson, 8, #480 of 841 🔗

So got two emails today first from the head honcho updating us on the voluntary redundancy and how many have applied with the ominous note that there might be compulsory ones after that. Then a few hours later comes the email from the big cheese (director) spelling out in greater detail what might happen which reading between the lines means more of us will be heading for the chop.

I get the very bad feeling that its now a common consensus among the upper echelons that 8 August will be the day we will well and truly sign our death warrant. Much like retail having signed theirs back on 24 July.

78390 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Bart Simpson, 5, #481 of 841 🔗

Sorry to hear that Bart. Sad for the cultural sector too.

78402 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Cheezilla, 5, #482 of 841 🔗

Thanks to you and , fingers crossed but I’m angry, it should have never come to this!

78395 ▶▶ ambwozere, replying to Bart Simpson, 8, #483 of 841 🔗

Oh Bart, that’s bad news, hope it doesn’t come to redundancy for you. Keeping all my fingers crossed for you.

78420 ▶▶ Richard, replying to Bart Simpson, 11, #484 of 841 🔗

Hi Bart – really hope you escape unscathed but it’s horrible for you and your colleagues to have to go through this for essentially no reason other than these useless lying idiots (which I voted for) who can’t admit they have made one the greatest errors in history.

78431 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Richard, 4, #485 of 841 🔗

Thanks but sadly I still have colleagues who think we should have locked down earlier and have swallowed the propaganda wholesale. I don’t think they’re really even comprehending the view that its the antisocial distancing and mandatory muzzling that’s putting our jobs on the line.

Admittedly I voted for them too. Who would have thought?

78485 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Bart Simpson, 3, #486 of 841 🔗

So do your colleagues think people are not visiting because they’re scared, rather than because they don’t want to wear a mask and adhere to stupid rules?

78748 ▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Carrie, #487 of 841 🔗

I think its the former. I have a few trilling that they had visitors tell them that they appreciate the “Covid safety measures” which i pointed out if that was the case then why are we not selling out despite the limited capacity? We’ve had a few no shows as well.

78569 ▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Bart Simpson, 2, #488 of 841 🔗

For those who think we should have locked down earlier throw the 200,000 unnecessary deaths from cancer in their face. Sorry about the threat to your job. I’m seriously thinking of killing someone and working out who: to get the best mileage out of then being locked up for life.

78778 ▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Bella, #489 of 841 🔗

And don’t forget strokes,heart disease, suicides, etc…..

78430 ▶▶ Paul, replying to Bart Simpson, 9, #490 of 841 🔗

Sorry to hear what is happening Bart,I love museums and galleries but there is no way I would attend either with the ongoing lunacy they are aiding and abetting.I truly wish just one major organisation or important cultural body would grow a backbone and stand against the tyranny and say ‘NO !’ and then I think this hell might begin to unravel,very sadly this seems a forlorn hope.

78438 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Paul, 5, #491 of 841 🔗

Agree. If only someone like Tristam Hunt (V&A) would fight our corner but I get the feeling that he like the rest of TPTB in the museums and heritage sector are too scared to go against the grain. I think people voting with their feet and wallets en masse is the only way to get them to listen and then lobby the government to end this lunacy.

78536 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Bart Simpson, 1, #492 of 841 🔗

Definitely vote with your feet – but write and tell them what you’re doing and why!

78612 ▶▶▶▶▶ DomW, replying to Cheezilla, 1, #493 of 841 🔗

Yep. I cancelled my paid membership to one of the major London museums last week and made it clear it was due to rule changes THEY had made for visits to the museum

78753 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to DomW, #494 of 841 🔗

Did that with the National Gallery as well but they refused to refund me so it won’t take into effect until 1 June 2021.

78749 ▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Cheezilla, #495 of 841 🔗

Yep. Just did that to the V&A. Was planning to go see the Kimono exhibition then when I saw their visitor information, I went “no thanks” and fired off a letter to their director.

78510 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Paul, 3, #496 of 841 🔗

Aaaargh, yes, just one!
Because it would be the pebble that starts the avalanche.

78475 ▶▶ PoshPanic, replying to Bart Simpson, 2, #497 of 841 🔗

Best of luck to you. It feels like this facade might be finally starting to crumble ( don’t want to speak to soon! ). Let’s hope it happens soon enough to save all our greatest assets 🤞

78757 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to PoshPanic, #498 of 841 🔗

I hope so but part of me thinks that many of our cultural institutions are already staring into the abyss of bankruptcy but are still in denial.

78492 ▶▶ Poppy, replying to Bart Simpson, 3, #499 of 841 🔗

Terrible news Bart, things like this are what motivate me to never give up and ensure the bastards who have done this to you and so many others finally get their comeuppance.

78752 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Poppy, #500 of 841 🔗

Agree. As I’ve told Mr Bart and a few friends, I won’t be surprised if this ends in violence. The jobs bloodbath will get worse from 8 August.

78590 ▶▶ Sue, replying to Bart Simpson, 1, #501 of 841 🔗

sorry to hear that Bart – makes me so angry that millions are going to be made redundant and all because the government is gutless and spineless and could be avoided.
pray that you avoid the cull.

78647 ▶▶▶ Bruno, replying to Sue, 2, #502 of 841 🔗

Not just gutless and spineless. Cynical and manipulative too. See Cdr Jameson above-
It’s not ‘on the scale of ebola. But someone told everyone it was before we were sure’. And now Johnson and team are frantically trying to muddy the waters enough to be able to suggest that they’ve saved us from a massive death toll, so it’s acceptable for them to have trashed the economy and left people mourning their absence from their relatives’ death beds for all time . Despicable.

78679 ▶▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Bruno, #503 of 841 🔗

It’s more than despicable, it’s criminal.

78400 Hannahbanana, replying to Hannahbanana, 14, #504 of 841 🔗

Even if the evidence for face coverings in community settings was STRONG, this is still not compelling enough. The coverings efficacy as a barrier to transmission one piece of a very large puzzle.
More significant pieces to weigh up must surely be:

  1. Is the virus they suppose to protect against even that harmful to the community at large.
  2. The physical health considerations of wearing a face covering
  3. And the most sinister (in my opinion) is the psychological state masks create
78425 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Hannahbanana, 5, #505 of 841 🔗

There is also the inherently counterproductive nature of masks. To the extent that they have any effect in reducing spread of infections, that effect also, by definition reduces the spread of immunity and of improved immune responses to future similar diseases.

And finally, the effect of seeing many people adopting such an obvious and dramatic protective measure is viscerally to increase levels of fear about this disease. As in so many cases, measures the government has taken supposedly to reduce fear have actually had the opposite effect.

78444 ▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Mark, 9, #506 of 841 🔗

Exactly. I’d be more worried if they did work. Eradicating respiratory viruses is a dangerous gamble because you don’t know what would happen when, inevitably, they came back one day.

They would have been OK to flatten the curve instead of a lockdown but making everyone wear them now is just beyond insane.

78456 ▶▶▶▶ PoshPanic, replying to guy153, 1, #507 of 841 🔗

Back in March, the public were told to hand their masks over to the frontline workers. This might have reenforced the perception of masks in public actually being scientifically based.


78726 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Mark, #508 of 841 🔗

The effect they wanted, surely? Ramp up the fear. People were beginning to feel less scared and to behave mire naturally. Wahey, time to turn everybody into faceless zombies. No human beings allowed.

78403 Rabbit, replying to Rabbit, 24, #509 of 841 🔗

Just returned from local co-op, I have to admit this was hard as I felt quite anxious after hearing about local Stasi proudly exclaiming on social media they were ready to shame anyone with a mask. I just thought, don’t over think it, go in and get it done like normal.

Admittedly, a quieter time to visit but all few customers were masked up, except for the staff. Nobody said anything, and the few that I noticed looking at me glanced away away if I made eye contact

Better than expected, I think like a lot of bullies it’s easy to type away on a social platform how dare they not wear a mask, but the reality is a large percentage of people avoid confrontation at all costs.

Felt so good picked up a bottle of wine!

78409 ▶▶ Hannahbanana, replying to Rabbit, 8, #510 of 841 🔗

My concern is that the effect of being masked anonymises the person. Like hiding behind an avatar or being part of a mob, they are prone to behave in aggressive ways that they otherwise would not if they could be fully identified. But congratulations on getting your shop done as normal – it’s ridiculous that it should take such anxiety and make one feel so satisfied and heroic when mission accomplished, but here we are!

78417 ▶▶▶ Rabbit, replying to Hannahbanana, 4, #511 of 841 🔗

Thanks, totally agree. Yes while it did feel great there is an annoying niggle that doing something so fundamentally normal and mundane as stocking up on a few essentials has that effect.

I had hoped to see someone without a mask, maybe next time.

78503 ▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to Rabbit, 4, #512 of 841 🔗

It gets easier, each shop you visit.

78707 ▶▶▶ karenovirus, replying to Dave #KBF, #513 of 841 🔗

Yes it does, my lanyard stays in the glove compartment now.

78583 ▶▶ Sue, replying to Rabbit, 1, #514 of 841 🔗

i just went to tesco at 9pm – no mask and no-one looked/bothered me. It’s quieter at that time so probably less open to conflict so suits me.
I probably have that dirty look of don’t give me any bullshit or i’ll give it back in spades! lol 🙂

78406 Nobody2020, replying to Nobody2020, 13, #515 of 841 🔗

This is a very important comment on the R number:

Martin Kulldorff

In Sweden right now, R is well below 1. When cases are close to zero and more restrictions are removed, R will increase. If R<1 when fully open, there is heard immunity. If R rises above 1, there will be another bump until increased immunity drives R below 1 again.


And guess what happens when you open up and try to have zero infection? You’ll never gain any more immunity to drive it back down.

78412 ▶▶ DRW, replying to Nobody2020, 5, #516 of 841 🔗

As said by Johan Giesecke: If you lockdown early, you’ll have to lockdown again.

78421 ▶▶▶ PoshPanic, replying to DRW, 2, #517 of 841 🔗

This problem was even made ( or at least suggested ) in the Pantsdown model.

78414 ▶▶ Ned of the Hills, replying to Nobody2020, 1, #518 of 841 🔗

A very useful synopsis – much thanks.

78418 Lockdown Truth, replying to Lockdown Truth, 21, #519 of 841 🔗

Walking down the high street today in my town. Overtook a middle aged woman well within one metre who then laughed at me and asked in a condescending manner if I was aware of the 2M rule. I just looked at her.

Anyway she said something else in the same vein and I told her that, statistically, according to government figures there were two people in the whole town who had Covid (20,000 population).

She laughed and called me an idiot!

That’s what we’re up against.

Don’t listen to facts. Don’t do any research.

78443 ▶▶ ambwozere, replying to Lockdown Truth, 8, #520 of 841 🔗

Brainwashed and believe everything they’re told. And too lazy to question what they’re being told.

78524 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Lockdown Truth, #521 of 841 🔗

The 2m rule was changed to 1m last month.

78561 ▶▶ Bella, replying to Lockdown Truth, 3, #522 of 841 🔗

I’m losing patience. I would have hit her.

78419 Tenchy, replying to Tenchy, 4, #523 of 841 🔗

Interesting article here about New Zealand:


It’s almost as though they want to maintain the fear forever. I wonder how long they are going to keep the country isolated from the outside world?

Note this statement:

The health ministry is also reconsidering its guidance on masks – during lockdown, officials did not recommend them, in line with WHO advice at the time

78449 ▶▶ Steve Martindale, replying to Tenchy, 5, #524 of 841 🔗

the only thing we have to fear is … fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.’
Thus spoke Roosevelt, allegedly one of Boris’s heros, well come on Boris,deaths down, hospital cases down, time to emulate your hero, speak up and lead the country away from the miasma of fear that seems to have paralysed our nation.
Unfortunately there is little sign of that happening, Boris has become a timid, dismal wet blanket with no sign that he or any other current politicians are capable of ‘doing a Roosevelt’.

78474 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Steve Martindale, 5, #525 of 841 🔗

Boris is being led by Bill Gates..

78502 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Tenchy, 4, #526 of 841 🔗

Living in NZ must be like being on Witness Protection, always having to look over your shoulder in case the thing you’ve been told to fear the most in the world shows up again.

78955 ▶▶▶ stevie119, replying to Nobody2020, #527 of 841 🔗

Or like hiding in a submerged submarine for months. Eventually they will have to re-surface…

78452 Bella, replying to Bella, 38, #528 of 841 🔗

Friend just phoned me to watch BBC1 programme called ‘Surviving the Virus’ at 9pm tonight, so after some garlic and a crucifix I consented. Never have I witnessed so much appalling propaganda in my memory. All speculation suggesting that Covid causes heart problems, brain problems etc etc. All these things can apply to any virus. One guy has abnormal heart rhythm ’caused by Covid’. I know people who have abnormal heart rhythm caused by excess coffee, red wine and fucking living in general. But, no, this is because of Covid. Fuck off. I have a mate who has a hole in his heart. He’s 69. If it was diagnosed today it would be because of Covid. Excuse my anger. No wonder with the See You Next Tuesdays at the BBC that people are terrified.

78470 ▶▶ mhcp, replying to Bella, 6, #529 of 841 🔗

Talked to a friend about this and she was saying some people get organ failure. My point was that it is a failure of the health professionals and policy makers not to study this and be able to recognise acute symptoms. The broadbrush approach means there’s a lot of ailments and variations going on that could resurge and aren’t Covid but are being swept up into the vague Covid bucket.

Not a good state of affairs.

78479 ▶▶ IMoz, replying to Bella, 4, #530 of 841 🔗

This goes back to what I was saying all along: it’s implausible that one agent would have such disparate pathophisology—there’s literally no other pathogen that I could find that would be so “chaotic”

78493 ▶▶▶ guy153, replying to IMoz, 2, #531 of 841 🔗

I’ll believe it infects the kidneys, brain, heart etc when somebody finds virus in those places in an autopsy.

It’s possible but I think unlikely.

It causes ARDS but also blood clotting (nobody knows exactly why but there are various theories) and that can lead to some of the other problems including hypoxia and death. The overall mortality rate for whatever combination of reasons is around that of most flus. Maybe twice as high, but not 10x.

78509 ▶▶▶▶ IMoz, replying to guy153, 1, #532 of 841 🔗

Do they actually find it in those parts in histological studies?

78575 ▶▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to IMoz, #533 of 841 🔗

I don’t think so. But good point– it doesn’t necessarily have to be an autopsy.

78577 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ IMoz, replying to guy153, #534 of 841 🔗

if something is assay-capable, and there is no assay done to prove a claim, that claim, is, quite frankly, worthless 😉

78522 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to guy153, 1, #535 of 841 🔗

I thought autopsies were banned?

78576 ▶▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to Cheezilla, #536 of 841 🔗

Well they have done a few.

78725 ▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to guy153, 1, #537 of 841 🔗

I understand that very few autopsies on alleged Covid victims are
being done. It isn’t hard to work out why.

78480 ▶▶ Basics, replying to Bella, 1, #538 of 841 🔗

You need stronger garlic and more silver in your crucifix.

78486 ▶▶ Two-Six, replying to Bella, 8, #539 of 841 🔗

The BBC’s entire output is a toxic brain-flush of corrosive mind-melt poison. They need to be shut down forever.

78505 ▶▶ Castendo, replying to Bella, 6, #540 of 841 🔗

The saddest part is that people seems to have forgotten that a bad flu can get you on those places too….

78672 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Bella, 1, #541 of 841 🔗

Flu gave me an abnormal heart rate, took 9 months to recover.

78768 ▶▶ mjr, replying to Bella, 1, #542 of 841 🔗

i am waiting for the BBC report that tells us that covid is due to global warming. Or maybe that global warming is due to covid.

78463 Will, replying to Will, 2, #543 of 841 🔗

Encouraging that there is a healthy waiting list building for Tesco deliveries. Given every delivery costs them money it makes it more likely that the ludicrous face nappy rules will be rescinded, hopefully.

78499 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Will, #544 of 841 🔗

You have to pay for Tesco delivery

78557 ▶▶▶ Bella, replying to JohnB, #545 of 841 🔗

Yep and it’s just gone up, actually more than doubled, for priority customers like my mum

78579 ▶▶▶▶ IMoz, replying to Bella, #546 of 841 🔗

Never let a crisis go to waste—true capitalism 😉

78465 DRW, replying to DRW, 14, #547 of 841 🔗

What’s more depressing? The state we’re in, or how the public have just allowed it?

78469 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to DRW, 10, #548 of 841 🔗

The latter… if the people were less compliant then the government would not be getting away with what they’re doing.. they would not have got this far..

78471 ▶▶ IMoz, replying to DRW, 7, #549 of 841 🔗

The latter, due to utter ignorace (through piss-poor education), unprecedented level of fear-mongering by the media, and unwarranted fear; but all stems from the first thing.

78506 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to DRW, 2, #550 of 841 🔗

The latter (but in a way, the latter is also kinda good, or reassuring in some respects because it means unlike a banana republic people trust the press, the politicians and our institutions, it just turns out their trust is misplaced). I tried to have a chat at yoga tonight, and the thing that frustrates me, is they might be a bit cynical, but they are completely incurious about facts! I think people are ‘bored of it now’.

78554 ▶▶ Moomin, replying to DRW, 2, #551 of 841 🔗

Definitely the latter.

78572 ▶▶ Darryl, replying to DRW, 6, #552 of 841 🔗

The public has been completely spineless and I would say at least 90% of them deserve everything they are going to get in the dystopian future they are condemning us all to. When society completely falls apart they might wake up to what they have done.

78589 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Darryl, 5, #553 of 841 🔗

When all the chickens come home to roost, it’ll be amazing how hard it will be to find all the current coronapanickers and lockdown zealots, though. Suddenly, nobody will ever have been in favour of all the bullshit.

78595 ▶▶▶▶ Darryl, replying to Mark, 2, #554 of 841 🔗

A lot of people are going to find themselves unemployed and I can honestly see many of them never working again – their skills just won’t match the jobs that the governments planned fourth industrial revolution will require. They have chosen their own obsolescence.

78724 ▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Mark, 1, #555 of 841 🔗

That’s certain. Like in Nazi occupied countries after the war, everybody found they had been in the Resistance..

78691 ▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Darryl, #556 of 841 🔗

I think that many of them were already beyond rescuing. Governments use studies to determine how to frame a position. They had to be fairly certain that their strategies had an excellent chance of succeeding if they were presented in a certain way, a certain language. And they were right!

78476 Basics, replying to Basics, 8, #557 of 841 🔗

Aberdeen lock down has a ripple effect in Edinburgh.

A self consciously fashionable bar representative in Edinburgh said:

“For this reason, on top of all our other procedures, we’ll now be asking our guests to wear masks at all times when not sat at the table; so if you go to the toilet or for a cigarette etc, we’ll be asking you to pop your mask on.

Also if queuing outside, please wear a mask and respect social distancing.”

And for those selfish enough to try and get away with sneaking in without a mask – Uno Mas is one step ahead of you.

“If you’ve forgotten a mask, we’ll have disposable ones to buy for £1 which will be added to your bill. If you refuse to wear a mask or we have to remind you more than once to wear it when you’re walking around, we will ask you to leave the premises.”


Risk assessment for wearing a mask while smoking?

78482 ▶▶ Lorenzo Basso, replying to Basics, 14, #558 of 841 🔗

Ridiculous virtue-signalling bullshit – constantly taking it off and putting it on again makes the bloody thing worse than useless! Don’t think I’ll be going back to Edinburgh any time soon. If any of my local haunts told me to “pop my mask on” for any reason, they’d be losing a fairly provocative amount of future revenue…

78520 ▶▶▶ Basics, replying to Lorenzo Basso, 2, #559 of 841 🔗

Yes its a BS bar. Bec may be right it needs a letter but its going down the pan in anycase.

Bars away from the centre have more LS spirit about them.

78489 ▶▶ IMoz, replying to Basics, 6, #560 of 841 🔗

For this reason, on top of all our other procedures, we’ll now be asking our guests to wear masks at all times when not sat at the table

Don’t know what’s worse: someone who’s dumb enough to actually utter that; or someone who’s dumb enough to take it unquestionably…

78592 ▶▶▶ Lisa from Toronto, replying to IMoz, 4, #561 of 841 🔗

Same bullshit here in Toronto — unless you’re at your table, the mask must be worn. First time eating out since March we were on a patio and the waiter brought the machine out when we paid, so no mask needed. But now that indoor dining is allowed, on and off goes the mask. I’d sooner pee my pants than go inside to use the washroom with a mask on. No risk as the restaurant was across the street from where we live. Guess I’ll have to eat out close to home!

78708 ▶▶▶▶ karenovirus, replying to Lisa from Toronto, #562 of 841 🔗

The waitresses at my favourite cafe wore masks when it reopened but stopped when the rule about takeaway customers wearing them came in but none of them did.

78495 ▶▶ ikaraki, replying to Basics, 1, #563 of 841 🔗

Bwahahahaaaa! Ridiculous.

Still waging the good fight at an Auld Reekie shop, shame I’m not in charge.. So far not worn a mask, might be two others who haven’t either. Most on and off, with a few all the time. Not managed to get the place opened up for browsing yet, any ideas?

78514 ▶▶▶ Basics, replying to ikaraki, 1, #564 of 841 🔗

Not really an answer but letting customers stand at the door and direct staff within to items for purchasing. I’ve done this as a customer. Stand at door and annouce into shop “no mask”. It draws attention to the crumby situation and mixes things up a little. I haven’t worn a mask and go about without as normal.

78559 ▶▶▶▶ ikaraki, replying to Basics, #565 of 841 🔗

Pretty much do that already, limited numbers in the shop and we hand out stock, want to persuade the shop to take the next step..

Oh I draw attention enough, very loud and just speak. Interesting idea though, will mull it over.

78500 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Basics, 2, #566 of 841 🔗

Honestly, I know I’m a stuck record, we really need to get writing letters to these places, one by one, every time we come across this crap.

78523 ▶▶ stefarm, replying to Basics, 6, #567 of 841 🔗

Edinburgh bar Uno Mas opened just before lockdown began in March but has been booked out most evenings during the latest easing of restrictions. Today the team wrote on Facebook in light of today’s lockdown of Aberdeen:

Let’s hope the team enjoy signing on!

I didn’t think I could be any more speechless.

She has cancelled the festival, Xmas and hogmanay, fuck it, might as well shut up shop until Easter.

78532 ▶▶▶ Basics, replying to stefarm, 3, #568 of 841 🔗

These places are not going to last. They are not community pubs. Where the trend moves on so they cease to be. It’s a business model we all see. Part of it is gesticulating for publicity. They know as we do that literally no one would miss the place if it wasnt there. Locals pubs are a different breed to these hollow places.

78540 ▶▶▶ Basics, replying to stefarm, #569 of 841 🔗

Booked out… was this a place complaining of no shows? I cannot recall.

78481 Suburbian, replying to Suburbian, 2, #570 of 841 🔗

Anyone know how many people protested this weekend in London? It’s been buried in the news but videos look like it was quite a few. The numbers I saw were a couple of hundred. Looked bigger in the videos but then I don’t know what’s right anymore

78558 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Suburbian, #571 of 841 🔗

Haven’t seen numbers but there was a very good but not entirely encouraging first hand report here from @Ben Shirley:

Hyde Park Report Pt. I

78565 ▶▶ Darryl, replying to Suburbian, 2, #572 of 841 🔗

I was there, it was much bigger than a couple of hundred but less than a thousand. You get an idea at the beginning of this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncQRUu56np8&t=254s

78491 BecJT, replying to BecJT, 10, #573 of 841 🔗

SitRep from Hot Yoga (formerly called Bikram Yoga before it turned out Bikram was a sex offender, but I digress).

Studio has reopened, but they are really struggling financially (one of five regional studios). Was really good to get back, really missed it.

No masks anywhere, silly effort of a screen on reception desk about a foot and a half wide, which the receptionist stepped around to take your temp with one of those stupid gun thingies. Loos, showers, lockers closed. You can’t borrow anything, mats, blocks etc.

Half the number in the class, and taped out squares for your mat on the floor at one metre distance.

Fired up the joss sticks, twangy indian music, and the heating obviously (it’s about 40 degrees) and shut the door. Whereupon (which is kinda the point with hot yoga) we huffed and puffed for an hour, flinging limbs around in a bendy fashion muttering ‘Jesus Christ!’ under our breath – it’s a thing in yoga that you try to breathe through your nose anyway, with a controlled breath, but she mentioned this more than usual, I imagine for Elf and Safety Reasons.

By the end – as is also typical – there was sweat everywhere (it’s a well known fact they burn joss sticks at yoga to cover up the whiff of accidental farts and sweaty humans). It literally drips onto the mat like rain, runs down your back, flies off the end of your fingers if you extend your arm, pings off the end of your hair if you turn your head.

In short, if anyone in that studio had covid, we’ve all just incubated it for an hour in a warm, humid room full of human body secretions.

I felt bad for the business, they are damned if they do and damned if they don’t, but it just struck me as utterly nonsensical. This thing is either a deadly killer, in which case, stay at home and getting digging the mass graves, or – as we know – we are now living in some kind of surrealist painting.

78617 ▶▶ Rick, replying to BecJT, 1, #574 of 841 🔗

Sounds like a perfect class. Hot and humid is not a condition liked by our friend the C virus.

78618 ▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Rick, 3, #575 of 841 🔗

Oh really? Didn’t know that, thought it was an old wives tale. My poor friends in Greece they now have to wear masks around the pool, in Greece, in August!

78620 ▶▶▶▶ Achilles, replying to BecJT, 4, #576 of 841 🔗

The birthplace of modern critical thinking. Socrates will be turning in his grave.

78504 Cheezilla, replying to Cheezilla, 1, #577 of 841 🔗

Serious bonkersness:

Dr Amir Khan appeared on ITV’s Good Morning Britain today, suggesting men – who are notionally at increased risk of coronavirus infection – should take a contraceptive pill filled with oestrogen . His theory, which he did not support with research, is that the oestrogen will boost the male immune system.

The Guardian ran an article titled “You’re already wearing a mask – now consider a face shield and goggles” ,

and this: comment image


78507 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Cheezilla, 4, #578 of 841 🔗

That image is terrifying, they’ll be done for trespassing if anyone turns up here.

78516 ▶▶▶ Tenchy, replying to BecJT, #579 of 841 🔗

So what’s the idea of that test – you do it yourself and send it back in the post?

78549 ▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Tenchy, 1, #580 of 841 🔗

They were doing them on the spot, but yes might be.

78568 ▶▶▶▶▶ Tenchy, replying to BecJT, 1, #581 of 841 🔗

So some git turns up at your door and wants to stick a probe up your nose? LOL. No chance!

78578 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Tenchy, #582 of 841 🔗

They were, yes!

78515 ▶▶ Tenchy, replying to Cheezilla, 11, #583 of 841 🔗

Quote from article (my emphasis and addition):

Fauci mentioned another reason eye protection has yet to become mainstream during his Q&A, saying: “It’s so easy for people just make a cloth mask.” Indeed, while goggles are not especially hard to come by (you can buy them on Amazon) you can’t really whip up a cute pair of them, and they’re just one more thing we’re not accustomed to – yet. Perhaps one day soon, wearing goggles will be second nature [I hope] . It won’t be weird if everyone’s doing it.

Are these people aliens who just happen to look human?

78537 ▶▶▶ OKUK, replying to Tenchy, 5, #584 of 841 🔗

When is one of our MPs going to denounce this sort of insanity in clear and unambiguous terms.? I’m surprised Trump puts up with it.

78584 ▶▶▶ Lisa from Toronto, replying to Tenchy, 6, #585 of 841 🔗

I don’t know why we don’t simply walk around with scuba gear on. It’s a cure all — you’ve got the goggles for your eyes and your own oxygen tank so you don’t have to share the air with anyone else. The flippers might be a bit awkward, but if everyone is wearing them it won’t be weird, right?

78603 ▶▶▶▶ Eddie, replying to Lisa from Toronto, #586 of 841 🔗

I’m down if you are Lisa 🙂

78680 ▶▶▶▶▶ Lisa from Toronto, replying to Eddie, #587 of 841 🔗

It’s way cheaper for the government to hand out .20 cent masks and pretend they’re “fighting the virus.” Scuba gear for all would be rather pricey! But if I had a set I’d definitely walk downtown with it on to make a statement.

78973 ▶▶▶▶ stevie119, replying to Lisa from Toronto, #588 of 841 🔗

Plus – if you fell into a swimming pool – you d be safe` too!

78606 ▶▶▶ Paul M, replying to Tenchy, 1, #589 of 841 🔗

We could just walk around with a condom on our head.

And there’s me just thinking it was a party trick – little did I know the future would have it as a fashion item.

78713 ▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Tenchy, 1, #590 of 841 🔗

I like the goggles and helmets that Jack Bruce Eric Clapton and Ginger Baker wore on their Fresh Cream album cover. ‘I Feel Free’.

78543 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Cheezilla, 5, #591 of 841 🔗

men – who are notionally at increased risk of coronavirus infection – should take a contraceptive pill filled with oestrogen . His theory, which he did not support with research, is that the oestrogen will boost the male immune system .”


Call me old fashioned, but that actually seems profoundly appropriate to me. If you are so unmanly as to be cowering in fear at the thought of a jumped up cold, then might as well stop even pretending to masculinity.

[No disrespect to the perfectly courageous specimens of womanhood inhabiting these forums. It’s a man to man thing.]

78552 ▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Mark, 1, #592 of 841 🔗

This is probably not the moment to mention transwomen, that’s all it takes these days to literally be a woman, an internal fuzzy feeling of girlyness and some estrogen (causing, I kid you not, a worldwide shortage of the stuff, for women who actually need it for family planning and HRT).

78586 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to BecJT, 2, #593 of 841 🔗

You’ve probably already guessed I’m very much on your side of that argument, Bec …..

78616 ▶▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Mark, 1, #594 of 841 🔗

LOL. I might have had an inkling.

78600 ▶▶ Eddie, replying to Cheezilla, 4, #595 of 841 🔗

Uuuuugh…the Guardian article is simply revolting and the comments even more so.
Goggles and shields on top of the masks? I think my time on this earth might soon be coming to a close. This can’t possibly be happening!

78627 ▶▶▶ Basics, replying to Eddie, 2, #596 of 841 🔗

Vaccine was going to deliver doble protection at one point… if you had one dose. Then they said actually you are going to need two or three shots of the vaccine to get loaded enough. Contacts, goggles, visors seems to be seems to from tge same scientific school of thought. The piss-ant school.

Actually if there are lurking young scientists reading this – you guys are a joke. People perhaps used to respect you profession. Now, you are basically cowardly scum. Stand up save your career.

78667 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Cheezilla, 1, #597 of 841 🔗

They will develop breasts as well with all that oestrogen, have a lower sperm count and sex drive.

78714 ▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to JohnB, #598 of 841 🔗

A spike in the shemale population. Groovy.

78702 ▶▶ DavidC, replying to Cheezilla, #599 of 841 🔗

Already done so. My voice has gone up two octaves, I have a wonderful 36D chest and my penis and balls have almost disappeared. I feel so liberated…


78712 ▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Cheezilla, #600 of 841 🔗

Take me to your Leader.

78511 nfw, 12, #601 of 841 🔗

The longer this stupidity continues the more I am convinced those so-called entertainment shows about lizards wearing human body outfits were really documentaries. I mean how much more stupid can conservative (deliberate use of small c) governments world-wide be? Boris has shown himself to be a complete and utter dill, along with his house-trained totalitarian ministers.

78521 Dave #KBF, replying to Dave #KBF, 1, #602 of 841 🔗

Dreadful report on Anna Brees YT channel, written not video, about a woman going shopping.

We need our so called leaders to stop this, imagine being in this woman’s shoes.


It is the first written message, under the Community section.

78546 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Dave #KBF, #603 of 841 🔗

God, that’s awful.

78701 ▶▶ DavidC, replying to Dave #KBF, 4, #604 of 841 🔗

Carry the link to Gov.uk showing the list of exemptions. I carry a lanyard with ‘I do not need to wear a mask’ and the exemptions printed on the back and the Gov.uk link. I haven’t been challenged yet but once I’ve told them my degree was in Microbiology (true) I would then show the print out. We cannot be ruled by halfwits who know nothing and think they know everything.


78533 richard riewer, replying to richard riewer, 4, #605 of 841 🔗

It is not just freedom of speech that we should worry about, it is also freedom of inquiry and the freedom to research what we please to inform ourselves and not be beholden to the government’s word.

I use Firefox but after what happened this morning I am not as keen. Occasionally I clean out the cache. In Windows it’s C:drive, users, user, app data then a bunch of programs, including Internet Explorer. Under Mozilla there is a profile folder, inside that it says cache 2, click on that then entries. Sometimes there are thousands of entries. I have found over 30 thousand on occasion. Today I had after just a few hours. They add up fast.

78555 ▶▶ Darryl, replying to richard riewer, 1, #606 of 841 🔗

Consider switching to ‘Brave’ browser and use DuckDuckGo as the search engine. Works really well, much better for privacy.

78665 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Darryl, #607 of 841 🔗

Be careful with duckduckgo, not as private as you might think, and they’re more left than Google/Alphabet

78698 ▶▶▶▶ DavidC, replying to JohnB, #608 of 841 🔗

Can you expand please?


78822 ▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to DavidC, #609 of 841 🔗

Well for one example, type a search into DuckDuckGo for example “bbc sport” and press ENTER, then look at the URL bar, it should display as below:


Therefore all you searches are logged with your ISP, so even though you are not receiving tailored Ads, all your searches are being logged.

If i use Startpage.com private search engine and enter the same search all the URL bar shows is:


Also, DuckDuckGo sells on your search information to Bing and Google.

78694 ▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Darryl, #610 of 841 🔗

I just checked. My Firefox Lockdown Skeptics link is working fine. Thanks.
I will give Brave a try soon. Firefox sometimes takes up 30 to 40% of my memory.

78697 ▶▶▶▶ DavidC, replying to richard riewer, #611 of 841 🔗

Opera’s very good.


78563 ▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to richard riewer, 6, #612 of 841 🔗

Richard to put your mind at rest, the problem this morning was a certificate which expired, there was nothing sinister in what happened.

The new certificate is valid until 3rd November, let’s hope we have no need for this blog by then.

78658 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to richard riewer, #613 of 841 🔗

What happened this morning?

78723 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to JohnB, 1, #614 of 841 🔗

The updated LDS page became temporarily unavailable, some of us thought it was through enemy action.

78664 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to richard riewer, 1, #615 of 841 🔗

If you want to completely clean out all old data from these programs use Bleach Bit which is free. It clears all the crap out, and will also Deep Clean the space where it was removed from.

This was the software used by Hilary Clinton on her email server to delete her email before the FBI examined it, and there was no trace of any emails after she used it.

78696 ▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to JohnB, #616 of 841 🔗

I used one around 20 years ago that was called something Washer.

78734 ▶▶▶ Dave, replying to JohnB, #617 of 841 🔗

Careful….. Seth rich 🧐

78548 stefarm, #618 of 841 🔗


78556 richard riewer, 3, #619 of 841 🔗

How about a t-shirt listing all the symptoms we are now daily suffering from? Front and back, if necessary. Face, fingers, toes, pants, shoes …

78562 Fed up, 15, #620 of 841 🔗

Just been out for a meal locally. Delightfully little in the way of Covid secure measures making it almost like the old normal. Table less than 2m from next table. Observation: the people at surrounding tables were unmasked, like me, because this is permitted by the rules. These are the very same people who feel emboldened to scowl and tut at me in a shop for being mask-less even though their chances of being infected by proximity to me in that setting is considerably less than sitting next to me for an hour plus. Why aren’t people seeing how arbitrary these ‘laws’ are. Where has critical independent thinking gone? When did we lose the ability to think for ourselves?

78580 ▶▶ Lisa from Toronto, replying to IMoz, 6, #622 of 841 🔗

Awww, too bad. NOT!!!! Isn’t virtue signalling the cure? The maskholes deserve every disgusting side effect they get.

78624 ▶▶▶ IMoz, replying to Lisa from Toronto, 2, #623 of 841 🔗

I like the video at the end that starts with “Common Skin Irritations from Masks: acne; hyperpigmentation; bruising; contact dermatitis; dry patches; rosacea flare; perioral dermatitis; skin erosion” and yet at no point does it occur to say “don’t ware the damn mask!”

78668 ▶▶▶▶ Lisa from Toronto, replying to IMoz, 1, #624 of 841 🔗

It’s for the greater good! They can’t possibly say don’t wear the damn mask. And I hate how the writer says the mask is her new favourite accessory. Makes me want to puke. You don’t have to pretend to like the thing!

78571 richard riewer, replying to richard riewer, 1, #625 of 841 🔗

I just thought of a technically advanced mask. With a zipper. Open the zipper to eat or drink and close it while you’re chewing or swallowing.

78573 ▶▶ IMoz, replying to richard riewer, 2, #626 of 841 🔗

don’t give “them” ideas! 😉

78581 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to richard riewer, 1, #627 of 841 🔗

The boffins have already invented a much more sophisticated, elegant and handsome solution: comment image

78596 ▶▶▶ Kath Andrews, replying to Barney McGrew, #628 of 841 🔗

Paul Joseph Watson used this in, what I think are is brilliant videos, this is ancient now, but one of my favourites https://www.bitchute.com/video/aEWjQOnrZRg/

78699 ▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Barney McGrew, 1, #629 of 841 🔗

Does it include the soundtrack?

78704 ▶▶▶▶ DavidC, replying to richard riewer, #630 of 841 🔗



78709 ▶▶ karenovirus, replying to richard riewer, #631 of 841 🔗

Gimp mask, cool leather version.

78585 Paul M, replying to Paul M, 14, #632 of 841 🔗

Wow. BBC Newsnight.
Don’t usually watch but was channel hopping .

Discussion about accuracy of PCR test, false positives and possible over-reaction to ‘rising cases’ against falling hospital admissions and falling deaths.

Mentions that rising cases in other countries are not reflected in risinc hospital admissions.

ICU Consultant and WHO rep interviewed. Worth a watch.

Could the media be turning?

78587 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Paul M, 2, #633 of 841 🔗

I hope so. Ties in with today’s BBC news website article about the same thing…

78607 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Paul M, #634 of 841 🔗

Dr Simon Clarke (often seen on Sky News) was on Twitter complaining about it:

Another slow hand clap for @BBCNewsnight – they do a piece on #coronavirus testing and neither of the talking heads they get on to opine is a molecular biologist. #clueless

78619 ▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Nobody2020, 3, #635 of 841 🔗

Kind of like saying that a Newsnight piece on economic growth would not be valid unless they had a random shopkeeper on, or a banknote printing expert.

78614 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Paul M, 7, #636 of 841 🔗

She’s great, but she’s a lone voice, her twitter is good if you don’t follow her, she was lambasting media reporting yesterday. I hear it’s incredibly hard internally at the beeb to swim against the tide, she’ll have had to fight for every single bit of these pieces she’s doing.

78637 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Paul M, #637 of 841 🔗

Fingers crossed!!!

78640 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Paul M, #638 of 841 🔗

This article about PCR test inaccuracies dates from February – though it complains about false negatives!


78700 ▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Paul M, #639 of 841 🔗

Auntie Beeb is not for turning.

78722 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to richard riewer, #640 of 841 🔗

The original word was ‘burning’. Put it back.
Remove the ‘not’.

78721 ▶▶ annie, replying to Paul M, 1, #641 of 841 🔗

This time next year, or I hope much earlier, the BBC will be fearlessly denouncing those who terrorised and wrecked Britain over a fake crisis. Panorama, Horizon, a stream of investigative programmes coming up with the truth, how it was everybody except them.

78591 swedenborg, 4, #642 of 841 🔗

Obesity is a risk factor for serious outcome of Covid-19 in line with influenza. In the rush of getting a covid-19 vaccine this risk group should benefit from it. But will they?This rather disturbing study for vaccine developers seem to conclude that obese patients despite good immune response of influenza vaccine  were still much more likely to get influenza than normal..Someone dug up this article from 2017 which is puzzling information
Conclusions: Despite robust serological responses, vaccinated obese adults are twice as likely to develop influenza and ILI compared with healthy weight adults. This finding challenges the current standard for correlates of protection, suggesting use of antibody titers to determine vaccine effectiveness in an obese population may provide misleading information.

78598 Tenchy, replying to Tenchy, 5, #643 of 841 🔗

From where does this unadulterated bollocks come from?

The Telegraph (paywall for full article):


Up to half a million Britons are suffering the effects of “long Covid”, MPs have been told, with some doctors dismissing many of the long-term symptoms suffered in the wake of coronavirus as ME.

Psychosis, fatigue, loss of eyesight and mobility issues are among the wide-ranging conditions that have been identified in those who have previously had the virus.

Claire Hastie, the founder of the Long Covid Support Group, warned that GPs were regularly misdiagnosing ongoing problems as anxiety or ME, saying: “Many people in our group to this day are being told by their GPs that it’s caused by anxiety and it’s all in their heads.

“It can cause anxiety, but it is not caused by anxiety. The science needs to catch up with us.”

Ms Hastie said data from the King’s College London symptom tracker app showed that between 200,000 and 500,000 people in the UK are currently living with the long-term effects of Covid-19.

But there’s only been 300,000 positive tests!

In the last couple of days I was beginning to think The Telegraph had turned a corner and was becoming much more sceptic – with hogwash like this, apparently not.

78601 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Tenchy, 10, #644 of 841 🔗

It couldn’t possibly be anything to do with restricting peoples movements and forcing everyone to suddenly change their way of life.

78605 ▶▶▶ A. Contrarian, replying to Nobody2020, 6, #645 of 841 🔗

I heard the WHO guy Nabarro talking about fit people having covid and then being unable to finish their run in the time they usually could, so it’s a terrible disease etc etc… er, yeah, if you’re out of action with any virus for a couple of weeks, of course you’re going to lose a bit of fitness FFS!

78602 ▶▶ A. Contrarian, replying to Tenchy, 3, #646 of 841 🔗

“Many people in our group to this day are being told by their GPs that it’s caused by anxiety and it’s all in their heads.”

Yep… just like anyone with post-viral effects from anything other than covid is told that it’s caused by anxiety and it’s all in their heads… but a positive covid test – wow, it must be real, you poor thing!

78611 ▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to A. Contrarian, 8, #647 of 841 🔗

Exactly! I was nearly dropping dead of galloping Graves disease and got told it was all in my head! I was so thyrotoxic I was shaking like a leaf and talking at a million miles an hour, which apparently, was ‘neurotic’. Which is why I don’t trust the NHS, the absolute f*(*kers nearly killed me. And if that wasn’t bad enough, the cure was worse and they blamed me for that too. Which is why most of my medical care is now on Harley Street and I stay clear as much as humanly possible.

78631 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to BecJT, 3, #648 of 841 🔗

They over-medicated my DH and nearly killed him. 5 different “medically qualified” professionals, with a list of his prescriptions in front of them, missed what my pharmacist friend diagnosed from a quick verbal description of his symptoms.

78818 ▶▶▶▶▶ Sam Vimes, replying to Cheezilla, #649 of 841 🔗

So many of them just follow what the previous ‘professional’ said, with out actually checking. I could look at a form and say “Yeah, keep doing that” for eighty grand or whatever, very easily.

78982 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ stevie119, replying to Sam Vimes, #650 of 841 🔗

Some appear to be little more than licensed drug dealers.

78663 ▶▶▶▶ Lisa from Toronto, replying to BecJT, 2, #651 of 841 🔗

Some 250,000 people are killed each year in the US due to medical error. It ranks third as a cause of death after heart disease and cancer. Where’s the outrage? That’s 250,000 PER YEAR. Why don’t we see 24/7 reporting on all the people — young and old — killed in hospital every single day in the MSM?

78703 ▶▶▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Lisa from Toronto, #652 of 841 🔗

Every year? Or thereabouts?

78729 ▶▶▶▶ wendyk, replying to BecJT, 1, #653 of 841 🔗

The very same happened to me; same thyrotoxicosis, and the cure- prescribed by an apathetic consultant- had to be withdrawn by my then GP.

I never go near doctors unless no other option available.

Friends and I have decided that we will not be having any vaccines, now or in the future.

78604 ▶▶ hotrod, replying to Tenchy, 5, #654 of 841 🔗

The problem with the DT is that many of their readers fully trust the Tory Party regardless of the full facts.

If the DT alienate their main body of readers and subscribers too quickly what do they have left?

This readership are plain scared and see any doubter as a fool and threatening to their safe retirements in Surrey.

The face that the BBC published the Triggle piece today is a sign of change.

The Mail also starting to sow seeds of doubt, its going to take a few weeks but last Friday was a turning point and slowly but surely more are beginning to question.

Wonder if we will see Whitty again?

78610 ▶▶▶ Tenchy, replying to hotrod, 2, #655 of 841 🔗

Wonder if we will see Whitty again?”

I hope not!

78633 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Tenchy, 2, #656 of 841 🔗

He has seemed to be uncomfortable with his remit – unlike the others who seem to have embraced it wholeheartedly.

78655 ▶▶▶ NonCompliant, replying to hotrod, 4, #657 of 841 🔗

The comments at the bottom of DT articles are very sceptic at the moment, maybe 75%. They’re very careful which articles have a comments section though.

78608 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Tenchy, 9, #658 of 841 🔗

Honestly, these people! I have Graves disease, Hashimotos Disease, Thyroid Eye Disease (fortunately all in abeyance), and mast cell over activation disorder from the flu!

Shit happens, that’s life. Some people happen to be minding their own business in Beruit and go up in smoke. Or be living in Syria and a barrel bomb drops on their head. Or they get cancer. Or their liver packs in. Terrible things happen. We can’t mitigate all of it.

Plus doctors telling you it’s all in your head, or ‘ME’ – welcome to my world, and pretty much every female thyroid patient on the face of the bloody planet.

78629 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Tenchy, 4, #659 of 841 🔗

I’ve had ME since the mid-80s. Maybe I got covid19 then?

They certainly didn’t bother to lockdown whole cities on my behalf – in fact they stopped my disability benefits last October.

78651 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Cheezilla, #660 of 841 🔗

Yes, there’s been significant increases in patients with Fibromyalgia and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, I think 2 million Fibro patients, but GPs and Specialists just tell people it’s all in their heads.

Nothing has ever been done to investigate these increases, and they always try and treat with cheap drugs like Amitryptaline, which shows they have no understanding whatsoever.

78732 ▶▶ Nigel Sherratt, replying to Tenchy, #661 of 841 🔗

Group of this sort spring up and like CV-19 never die. My favourite is the Large Penis Support Group!

78621 James Leary #KBF, replying to James Leary #KBF, 15, #662 of 841 🔗

Preston going into lockdown because of
49 new cases of coronavirus in the week to 31 July, more than double the week before when there were 22 – this meant almost 35 cases per 100,000 population.

“CASES” not deaths. Almost one third of a person per thousand population.

If this is sufficient cause to shut down a town we are captive to them forever.

People need to be hung.


78642 ▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to James Leary #KBF, 1, #663 of 841 🔗

Sad news.

78626 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, #664 of 841 🔗


Not sure if posted before.Very interesting article from Heneghan Jefferson Oxford Group
This matter has been discussed extensivley here on te blog.

78630 ▶▶ IMoz, replying to swedenborg, #665 of 841 🔗

We had a discussion of cycle and fluorecence thresholding earlier today, perhaps as they were putting that up: https://lockdownsceptics.org/2020/08/05/lockdown-sceptics-4/#comment-78112

78632 richard riewer, replying to richard riewer, 4, #666 of 841 🔗

We are living through a government sanctioned state of Bedlam.

78653 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to richard riewer, 3, #667 of 841 🔗

We really are, it gets madder by the day.

78635 Dave #KBF, 2, #668 of 841 🔗

Something a bit different from YT, someone who explains the body language of Billy Boy, BoJo & Witless, interesting bit from the stage a last weeks German demonstration:


78641 richard riewer, #669 of 841 🔗


charade (ʃərɑːd , US -reɪd )
Word forms: plural charades
1. countable noun [usually singular]
If you describe someone’s actions as a charade, you mean that their actions are so obviously false that they do not convince anyone.
I wondered why he had gone through the elaborate charade.
The U.N. at the moment is still trying to maintain the charade of neutrality. [+ of]

78646 IMoz, replying to IMoz, 2, #670 of 841 🔗

oh look, facebook is playing the arbiter of truth again: https://www.rt.com/usa/497216-trump-facebook-covid-misinformation/ 

78763 ▶▶ mjr, replying to IMoz, 2, #671 of 841 🔗

And twitter Just needs google now.
and the ridiculous aspect of this is that it is about kids and infections .
Facebook statement “This video includes false claims that a group of people is immune from COVID-19 which is a violation of our policies around harmful COVID misinformation.””
in the video the president claimed children were “almost immune” to coronavirus.

So will twitter and facebook provide the evidence that children are not immune? Point to the thousands of children suffering from covid?

78825 ▶▶ PoshPanic, replying to IMoz, #672 of 841 🔗

With every dumb statement, he gives the opposition the ammunition they need to kill themselves.

78649 NonCompliant, replying to NonCompliant, 17, #673 of 841 🔗

I’ve decided it’s time to post my MP (Tory) and MP of my town (Labour) an intelligence test. I’m going to provide them with links to the NHS daily covid-19 web page and then ask them to confirm:

1. The date of the last Covid Hospital death in my local NHS Trust.
2. The number Nationally of under 60’s with no underlying health conditions who have died from Covid-19

Then I’m going to ask them have they even bothered to look at these numbers themselves before my letter and to justify their complete silence and tacit support of Government policy to date given the answers to 1 & 2.

I’m going to demand they provide the answers to 1 & 2 in any reply they send so I’ll know someone has at least bothered to spend 5 minutes effort. Lastly I’m going to tell them that as far as I am concerned all MP’s who remain silent are as complicit in destroying our economy and quality of life as our incompetent Government. I’ll be sure to mention care homes, masks school closures while I’m at don’t worry!!!

I think it’s time to turn up the heat on all politician’s, not just the moron’s in No10

78652 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to NonCompliant, 4, #674 of 841 🔗

Just had the very same thought. Labour in particular need to be under way more pressure.

78888 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to BecJT, 1, #675 of 841 🔗

Suggest also asking MPs if they can assure you that they would never vote to make coronavirus vaccination compulsory. My MP refused to rule it out. Think we should collect data and then name and shame

78650 BecJT, replying to BecJT, 6, #676 of 841 🔗

Just thinking out loud here. Part of the issue is this lunacy has no opposition. Her majesty’s opposition are too busy being woke, fighting each other, and totally cocking up their job and just hating the Tories for the sake of it (but for the wrong things, a bit like the Red Cross in a war zone, the immediate issue isn’t nitpicking military strategy but pitching some tents, and getting food and medicine to those injured). They are so focused on nitpicking the Tories’ strategy, they aren’t questioning the strategy really. I honestly still can’t believe it really. So, our government, are basically doing whatever they want, with the *support* of the opposition.

Shouldn’t we be lobbying the opposition? Anyone here with Labour MPs? Have you had any responses?

Simon Dolan’s case isn’t until the end of Sept, that feels like a lifetime.

What can we do to kick the opposition to do more? What’s their shadow Attorney General saying? Any sceptics?

Or are they all on recess now and we’re a rudderless ship?

78657 ▶▶ NonCompliant, replying to BecJT, 2, #677 of 841 🔗

Been saying the same thing for weeks. Got a Labour or Lib Dem MP? Write a letter and excoriate them. Mind’s being posted tomorrow. His Twitter timeline reads like he’s on a different planet! Hell, if they’re a Tory do the same, they’re all complicit in this disaster.

78662 ▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to NonCompliant, 2, #678 of 841 🔗

I agree. I don’t, mine’s Tory but I might fire of a few letters to left wing publications, or think tanks or something. I think we need to be like a cloud of mosquitoes, we might only be small, but we’re bloody annoying!

78740 ▶▶ Tom Blackburn, replying to BecJT, 4, #679 of 841 🔗

Agree with this 100%.

Starmer has been such a disappointment – all he appears to do is tweet platitudes. The comments under his tweets generally tell him where he is going wrong but on he goes – ploughing a lone furrow. Tweeting about such a narrow brand of metropolitan politics which centres around identity and diversity that 90% of the nation hold no truck with. If nothing else, it is boring.

He could and should be crunching the data like we are.

78817 ▶▶ Sam Vimes, replying to BecJT, #680 of 841 🔗

I should write to my MP, but I can’t summon the energy. We’ve just had a ridiculous assault on the North West, by Tories, aimed at Muslims. So, who should be against all that? Stand up, Rochdale Labour MP Who Depends On A Muslim Block Vote – Tony Lloyd. A quick look at his Twitter thing shows nothing of the sort. “We need clarity” i.e., explain to us how you are punishing us, then do it some more. Total acquiescence to T and T, masks, the whole shitshow.
What would his reply be? “Following the science, shop worker deaths, blah…”

78654 hotrod, 6, #681 of 841 🔗

As noted below.


First feature Wednesday evening edition.

The wonderful Debs Cohen reporting and then a studio debate.

Very last comments from NHS Dr from Birmingham and follow up by Kirsty suggest the penny has dropped at last.

78670 richard riewer, #682 of 841 🔗

You can find Schopenhauer’s books and essays at the Gutenberg Project. You can also find many other great works of philosophy etc. Free! There you go, knock yourself out!

78688 Bruno, 1, #683 of 841 🔗

Bit at a tangent here, but does anyone know if Richard Lehman stopped writing his BMJ Covid blog on 11 May? He seems a humane, sane old doctor:

78693 Bruno, replying to Bruno, 3, #684 of 841 🔗

Can anyone work out what this means? D o H is reported as saying ” in just 8 weeks NHS test and trace has tested over 2.6M people for CV and contacted more than 218,000 who have tested positive for the virus, or recently been in contact with someone who has tested positive, in order to break the chain of transmission. We have over 27,000 contact tracers in place to undertake this vital work.”
If the ratio of positive tests to numbers of tests is 0.05% (ONS figs), I make the positive tests 1300. So the contacts reached were 218000-1300=216700. That’s one contact per tracer per week. (216700/27000=8 contacts per tracer over 8 weeks). Obviously they’ll have made many attempts which fail, but if the hit rate is only one per tracer per week, something is wrong. Could be my maths at this time of night, of course.. . And we’re spending £10M on this?

78719 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Bruno, 3, #686 of 841 🔗

And if we have anything to do with it, most of those calls will be to Wancock’s constituency office.

78710 ▶▶ karenovirus, replying to Bruno, #687 of 841 🔗

Sounds about right, staff at the t’n’t call centre are twiddling their thumbs as are those at the testing station

78720 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Bruno, 2, #688 of 841 🔗

You get a better hit rate (about 1% sales conversion) cold calling random numbers from the phone book.

78874 ▶▶ guy153, replying to Bruno, #689 of 841 🔗

I think the ratio of positive tests to numbers of tests is about 10x higher in “Pillar 2”. Why? Probably their test is less specific. I can’t find much info about it or their asymptomatic ratio, which would be a good clue.

Has anyone been for a Pillar 2 test and if so do they ask if you had any symptoms recently and record this? It would be crazy not to as this one question gives so much more information about all kinds of things. Ratio of positive to negative among the symptomatic gives us a lot of information about herd immunity. Ratio of asymptomatic to symptomatic positive gives us clues about the specificity of the test.

Anyway that might be 10 phone calls per tracer per week. That sounds like hard work.

78711 karenovirus, replying to karenovirus, 2, #690 of 841 🔗

Three things today.
Car sales outlet, the company range rover has had new paint job, included in the livery “to ensure your safety at xxxx motors we are Covid Compliant” etc. hopefully that will look a bit dated next year.

Spoke to someone who works for NHS Charities United, seems they handled dishing out Captain Tom’s millions. “Used it to top up the CEOs bonus ?” I mischievously suggested.
No she replied, it all went on extra benefits for patients and staff. Providing access to smart phones so patients could stay in touch with family. Providing staff with ‘hot box’ meals where these were not sponsored by local restaurants. Enhancing garden areas for under-pressure staff to relax in. Sounds good to me.

Mislaid my credit card yesterday but used the app to disable it. Staff at my usual newsagents handed it to me this morning, just as well they new my face.

78735 ▶▶ stefarm, replying to karenovirus, 3, #691 of 841 🔗

Ah Captain Tom, msm and PR company’s wet dream.

78760 ▶▶▶ Ewan Duffy, replying to stefarm, 2, #692 of 841 🔗

He got his knighthood for persuading people to pay a voluntary tax.

78774 ▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to stefarm, 3, #693 of 841 🔗

To be fair, he was fundraising for NHS charities, so like Great Ormond Street. But I work in the vol sector, which is on its knees (soup kitchens, dogs homes, kids counselling services etc etc), and that appeal took so much money away from causes that really needed it (funding has collapsed for charities, and next year will be even worse). He seemed like a kindly fellow, but NHS charities are already really well supported.

78759 ▶▶ Ewan Duffy, replying to karenovirus, 5, #694 of 841 🔗

Do NHS staff not get paid? Why can’t they buy their own meals?

79261 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Ewan Duffy, #695 of 841 🔗

And don’t the majority of people have smartphones as well?

78715 BobT, replying to BobT, 12, #696 of 841 🔗

Among parents whose child was offered the opportunity to spend some time in school before the summer holidays, 23% say they did not take up the offer. The top reasons included:

  • Concern that their child might transmit COVID-19 to family members (48%);
  • * confidence that homeschooling was working well (39%);
  • * concern that their child might catch COVID-19 and become ill (38%); and
  • * worries about the local or regional infection rate (32%).

In a real democracy this should be irrelevant because more than 52% do not agree with any of the above.

I have lived overseas for most of my life but I did return to the UK to carry out a project a few years ago. I wanted to test a device in the sea and to do so I needed a license which required lots of documentation including an Environmental Impact Assessment. This had to be approved by about 6 agencies of Government along with about 5 other stakeholder groups such as local fishermen. It only required one dissenter of the 11 to stop the whole project. I realised then that democracy in my home country is dead. In the case above, surely if 6 of the consultees agreed and 5 did not then the project should go ahead? Apparently not!

In the Mumsnet survey, 77% of mothers did take up the offer of some time in school before the summer holidays. That is democracy.

Similarly, if a Teacher’s Union, who likely represent a small fraction of real teacher’s views, object to reopening schools then it does not happen. That is not democracy.

Democracy (remember the Roberts Rules of Order?) requires that the majority support a decision. Now, it seems that any minority dissent can scupper a decision and if the media follow the dissenters the politicians cave in to the minority.

Therein lies a problem with all facets of democracy including the Governments responses to this non epidemic.

78718 ▶▶ annie, replying to BobT, 5, #697 of 841 🔗

‘cave in to the minority’?
I wish, in this case.
We are the sane minority under this Fascist tyranny, and the only people they cave into are the majority of brainwashed, bedwetting zombies who squeak and gibber in the MSM.

78716 richard riewer, 3, #698 of 841 🔗

What a freak show we’re living in these days!

78717 Steve Martindale, replying to Steve Martindale, 13, #699 of 841 🔗

Sorry if this has been posted already there are so many comments on here it is hard to keep up! But following up on the piece above on PCR tests Prof Henegan and the CEBM have done it again and put together summary of PCR test information. As ever I have to read it twice to try and get my head round the science but if I have read it correctly it is confirming that many sources agree that the PCR tests currently being carried out in the UK can’t distinguish between the live replicating virus and non-infectious viral debris.
Therefore it would seem that these local lockdowns based on PCR test results are completely unjustified and may be based on test results from people who have already ‘zapped’ the virus some time ago.
It seems to be these PCR test results that are the only factor underpinning this current madhouse, hopefully this sort of analysis will start to take the wind out of the sails of the lockdown madhouse ship?

78727 ▶▶ Dave, replying to Steve Martindale, 5, #700 of 841 🔗

This info has been around for months. Years even. The inventor of the test won a Nobel prize for it but even he said it cannot be used for the current testing.

78730 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Steve Martindale, 4, #701 of 841 🔗

This is brilliant. Finally, the tests themselves are coming under scrutiny. But in recent correspondence with a friend, I know that it will be an uphill battle to change anyone’s mind.

Most people’s perception of this ‘pandemic’ is through the prism of the test results – it isn’t through their personal experience of the illness or symptoms. To question the tests is to jeopardise everything they have invested in it.

78811 ▶▶▶ Sam Vimes, replying to Barney McGrew, #702 of 841 🔗

No, most people’s perception is through ‘the fear’, Barney. Blind obedience to ‘you get it, you die’. Why else would they fall for the ever increasing shenanigans being chucked at us? “You’re gonna die” is a powerful motivator, even if unfounded.

78731 ▶▶ Nigel Sherratt, replying to Steve Martindale, 2, #703 of 841 🔗

Pedantically the virus isn’t generally considered to be alive but still reproduces itself via our cells. The current low positives rate is indistinguishable from false positives (if anyone actually knew what that number is).

78733 ▶▶ Dave, replying to Steve Martindale, 1, #704 of 841 🔗

Try this article aswell. It was a good description of how insane all this is
The ons website said an average of 3% false positives. The uk is testing 200000 a day. Simple maths even the cabinet can work out….. no wait a minute


78758 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Steve Martindale, 2, #705 of 841 🔗

Carl Heneghan is starting to get some traction as a press pundit, so I thought the timing of this was good. I also wondered if he and Deb Cohen at Newsnight had been talking as it was nicely timed with last night’s programme. And yes my GCSE in biology read it the same as you.

78761 ▶▶ mhcp, replying to Steve Martindale, 4, #706 of 841 🔗

I’ve commented before about my background especially the physics part. And it seems that Richard Feynman was right. A lot of the softer sciences really don’t understand how to measure things and the reason you need sufficient precision. It’s because of the scientific method. If I expect to see a variation of x big it’s no use if I can only reliably measure to 10x.

You can model things assuming precision but then all you have are hypotheses, similar to string theory. Or Santa Claus.

But there are whole fields of inquiry that make money doing just that. And as Charlie Munger says: show me the incentive and I will show you the outcome

78728 Nicky, 3, #707 of 841 🔗

Apologies if this has been posted/seen before but thought it was a nice summary

78737 stefarm, replying to stefarm, 14, #708 of 841 🔗

Forgive me for thinking too far out of the box or down the rabbit hole but I really can’t see any end point to this shit.

It’s pretty clear that ‘compared to a normal flu season ‘it’ hasn’t killed enough people or is likely to which seems to be a big disappointment to the powers that be.

How many deaths do we think the powers that be forecast?, by that I mean the people pulling the strings, let’s be honest the government couldn’t organise a shag in a brothel and then a piss up in a brewery to celebrate.

We’ve heard stories of DNR notices, the care home murders (I don’t think it’s too extreme to say murdered), 200k lives lost from delayed medical appointments, mask wearing likely to cause illnesses and germs spreading, suicide, mental breakdowns, people literally being scared to death.

There is definitely something more sinister going on on the background.

78742 ▶▶ mhcp, replying to stefarm, 6, #709 of 841 🔗

It’s going to get worse and become properly farcical before it gets better. I expect schools and that situation will be hyped up and then forgotten about when there’s no issue.

I also expect masks to be mandated outdoors except for certain types of exercise because you know, obesity.

I also think you may start to see resignations of ministers and heads of police forces trying to get out in front of the wave of shit

78745 ▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to stefarm, 2, #710 of 841 🔗

I totally agree 👍

78769 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to stefarm, 1, #711 of 841 🔗

There is definitely something more sinister going on on the background.


78785 ▶▶ R G, replying to stefarm, 1, #712 of 841 🔗

I’ve said this before but I can’t see this going away now until the weather warms up next year. If the measures are getting worse during the height of summer, what do you think is going to happen when flu season arrives and it inevitably gets conflated with the coronavirus?

78738 Biker, replying to Biker, 33, #713 of 841 🔗

That has to be the most depressing edition of the LS i’ve read. Fellow mindfucked skeptics we must resist these people. The threat to this country is we’re being destroyed from within. Most of Westminster is in on it, halfwits like Sturgeon and Starmer also. We have been taken over in a bloodless coup since that vile pathetic bastard John Major sold us down the river. We all know the truth about this virus and we have the example of Sweden to make our case. Refuse the mask, refuse the social distance, use cash and don’t take the test. Argue with whatever form the state arises in your face. We have no choice. Clearly the whole pandemic is as fake as a Labour economic strategy so there is without doubt something else going on here. Whatever it is it is destroying our society from schools, to business to church to the scouts to everyone that makes us great. When will it stop? When re we gonna fight for it back because i am sick and fucking tired of the whole thing. If at the next election everyone of these cunts isn’t removed then i don’t know. See all these people now who think they’ve breezed through this nightmare, them people that have ignored the millions of poor the millions more losing their jobs, the millions of children just cat aside they’re gonna feel it too and they won’t have the balls to deal with it. When you’ve got fuck all you’ve nothing to lose but when you’re the suburban family suddenly out on their deaf fucking ear they’ll be looking to folk like us. They’ll also be folk like us for not making them understand what was going down. The set back to us as a nation is beyond compare and for what? less deaths of this than the flu. If they hadn’t said a word no one would have noticed. Anyone not believing this whole thing is nothing more than a global shakedown and the theft of massive amounts of money with a new control grid thrown in for good measure is a direct threat to me. Don’t be surprised when the shit hits the fan and it’s an army of folk like me fighting back that you are gonna pay for your pathetic, subservient acquiesce.

78739 ▶▶ stefarm, replying to Biker, 5, #714 of 841 🔗

Hear hear, you must have read my mind.

78744 ▶▶ mhcp, replying to Biker, 16, #715 of 841 🔗

The big scandal for me is that people were not given compassion and dignity in death. No family members allowed. In some cases this includes kids. And people were trying to justify it.

No it’s inhumane. This is not fucking Ebola.

And still tax payers will be made to pony up for this.

78750 ▶▶ TJN, replying to Biker, 12, #716 of 841 🔗

Refuse the mask, refuse the social distance, use cash and don’t take the test. Argue with whatever form the state arises in your face.’

Yep, bang on.

78850 ▶▶▶ karenovirus, replying to TJN, 1, #717 of 841 🔗

Apart from hiding behind the lanyard for one day I do refuse these things, will refuse the test, and vaccine.

78754 ▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Biker, 9, #718 of 841 🔗

‘Refuse the mask, refuse the social distance, use cash and don’t take the test. Argue with whatever form the state arises in your face.’

That should be our mantra!

78755 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Biker, 5, #719 of 841 🔗

I’m starting to think like this. Disobedience. It’s the only way.

78771 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Biker, 4, #720 of 841 🔗

don’t take the test

Agree – why would any one take the test. The test is flawed.

78772 ▶▶ Rick, replying to Biker, 3, #721 of 841 🔗

Nice one Biker.

78808 ▶▶ Sam Vimes, replying to Biker, 1, #722 of 841 🔗

Completely agree. But, watch them get voted back in next election (if it’s not cancelled, ‘due to covid’). And if it was Liebour instead, what would be the difference? None of them are opposing this, and that just confirms conspiracy for me.

78746 Laura Gallagher, 1, #723 of 841 🔗

Anyone in wales might be interested in the debate at https://www.facebook.com/groups/coronavirusinwalesupdates/permalink/750340709088208/ . One person put a petition to make mask wearing mandatory in Wales, so another did one to stop them from becoming mandatory. It is a Wales Online forum so don’t expect to learn too much however it is interesting to see the comments and split of likes/angry faces – well I think anyway .

78751 ▶▶ Mark II, replying to Winston Smith, 6, #725 of 841 🔗

Waheyy the good Dr has made it into msm at last! Fingers crossed more of them start calling upon him

78756 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Mark II, 8, #726 of 841 🔗

Getting such voices into the mainstream media is vital to encourage people to listen to the arguments of ordinary sceptics. When what we say to them is completely new, it tends to be dismissed instantly as bizarre extremism, whereas if they have seen it before from an authority figure in a respected media source, they tend to be more open to it in day to day life. Also encourages more timid sceptics to speak out themselves.

78782 ▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Winston Smith, 1, #727 of 841 🔗

Most popular comments under the article are excellent too.

78790 ▶▶ smileymiley, replying to Winston Smith, #728 of 841 🔗

Another excellent article by him

78869 ▶▶ Jonathan Palmer, replying to Winston Smith, 1, #729 of 841 🔗

I think the Mail has finally turned.2nd day running for anti lockdown articles.

78881 ▶▶ Stuart Barker, replying to Winston Smith, 1, #730 of 841 🔗

Oh good gracious, one of the recent comments

why didn’t this doctor speak up before . shame on you coward. just as much to blame as the government

He has been, frequently, but the public and the MSM didn’t want to listen. I don’t have (or particularly want) a mail online account so can’t respond. Is there someone here who does and can (and is willing)?

79256 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Winston Smith, #731 of 841 🔗

Great article! Love this bit:

‘In this crazy world, citizens who thought they lived in a sane, civilised country are treated like imbeciles, unable to make everyday risk assessments for themselves.
As a result, they are bound by farcical rules, exemplified by those governing the re-implemented Northern lockdown, where it is permitted to meet a lover with whom you do not co-habit in a hotel, but not in either of your private homes.’

78762 Barney McGrew, replying to Barney McGrew, 12, #732 of 841 🔗

Toby may enjoy a video I saw last night about The Rise of the Midwit , because it is illustrated with an image of Adam Rutherford.

This is a term I hadn’t heard before, but according to the video it refers to a person who is above average intelligence but not as far as being super-intelligent. The presenter’s thesis is that these people are now in possession of dumbed-down doctorates, and running the universities – with devastating results.

It highlights some of this person’s traits:

  • Conformity. The idea is that increasing intelligence does have some correlation with increasing social and intellectual conformity, up to a point. These people don’t go past that point, and therefore cannot tolerate non-conformity, and are unable to see it as potentially a good, necessary thing in others.
  • ‘Liberal’ values. Another correlation with intelligence up to a certain point. While the more intelligent are not particularly concerned with such trivialities, the ‘midwit’ again sees it as central to his mission.
  • Credentialism. These people aren’t really intellectually equipped to seek the ‘truth’, so their version of an argument is the trading of credentials. An aspect of this is that in their view, people from outside a field cannot comment on fields they are not formally qualified in; their arguments are not admissible.
  • Questioning, but as a tactic to neutralise opposing arguments. Perhaps they think they are mimicking the more intelligent person’s sharp, pointed questioning, but without understanding what it does. Instead, they use amorphous, unanswerable ‘questions’ to evade lines of argument they don’t like, or don’t understand.

Or at least that was what I took away from it.

The general idea is that these people are drunk on their own self-importance, having mistakenly been given top level intellectual credentials and careers due to a self-fulfilling spiral of decline in standards at universities. As a result, they mistake their own ‘midwit’ limitations as desirable attributes that have been formally recognised by society as indicators of merit, and they naturally seek to perpetuate them. As a result, they block the advancement of genuinely intelligent people, and due to politicians’ cowardice and willingness to hide behind ‘experts’, are given the keys to running society directly. It’s the slightly-above-average-intelligence version of ‘idiocracy’.

78775 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Barney McGrew, 9, #733 of 841 🔗

Interesting and gives a lot of food for thought. Unsurprisingly I see a lot of these traits in my in-laws both of who were university lecturers – they were experts in their field but sadly were not really in tune with the real world. My late mother-in-law especially was disparaging about people in business and couldn’t seem to comprehend that without businesses turning in profits there would be nothing to pay her salary and all those public services she claims to want to save.

The description also fits in with a lot of my colleagues especially those in the millenial age bracket. The first two is especially entrenched as its something they’ve grown up with and which they have carried into our workplace which seems (at least to me) for them to be an extension of university. They don’t seem to like to hear the opposing view and use their antisocial media accounts to virtue signal and jump on every fashionable bandwagon possible.

78779 ▶▶ TJN, replying to Barney McGrew, 5, #734 of 841 🔗

I haven’t seen the video, but this is I think an interesting and perceptive post.

It ties in with my hypothesis that these people have infiltrated all our institutions (i.e. all public and much corporate life), and now hold sway. Truly independent thinkers are weeded out as ‘not being team players’, resistant to change’ when they refuse to go along with orthodoxy, and the like.

Hence the utter failure of our institutions to deal with even a relatively small upset such as CV. With the weakness of our institutions, this further ties in with my hypothesis that eventually we were going to suffer this collapse, this collective nervous breakdown, anyway; and that CV has just the vehicle, not the cause.

A little while ago I recall a discussion I had on here concerning the correlation (or lack of) between intelligence and the capacity for independent thought. I can’t be certain, but it may have been you or Bart S. who replied?

78799 ▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to TJN, #735 of 841 🔗

Yes, someone posted a link to this excellent piece:

I think Toby highlighted it in his round-up the next day.

78848 ▶▶▶▶ TJN, replying to Barney McGrew, #736 of 841 🔗

Interesting article. And all fairly apparent if you think about it. Just about everyone on here is on the RHS of the axis I am sure – which is consistent with us still being a minority

78860 ▶▶▶ Jonathan Palmer, replying to TJN, 1, #737 of 841 🔗

More worrying is the fact that common purpose graduates infest the public sector.

78783 ▶▶ bluemoon, replying to Barney McGrew, 2, #738 of 841 🔗

There’s also The Peter Principle at work: something along the lines that people are being promoted to their level of incompetence.

78899 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Barney McGrew, #739 of 841 🔗

An aspect of this is that in their view, people from outside a field cannot comment on fields they are not formally qualified in; their arguments are not admissible .”

Haven’t seen the video so I don’t know if he makes the connection, but that does tie in with the”woke” idea that you have to live someone’s life or lifestyle in order to be able to comment on it. So only black people can talk about black lives, only women, women’s lives, only perverts, homosexual lives,etc etc. But of course, that is only applied to negative or non-woke commentary – the woke are perfectly entitled to say woke things about other lives and lifestyles.

But a major aspect of humanity is that life is about learning to understand by proxy rather than just direct experience, by experience and intelligence and empathy.

78764 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 15, #740 of 841 🔗


This is extraordinary. A scientist who has already published several articles discussing reduced herd immunity for Sars-Cov 2

Now her latest paper being rejected because

“Given the implications for public health, it is appropriate to hold claims around the herd immunity threshold to a very high evidence bar, as these would be interpreted to justify relaxation of interventions, potentially placing people at risk.”

Her commets seems reasonable

Her paper said

“Building on a model-based analysis of 4 European countries we elaborate on the prospects for the pandemic to be resolved by the end of 2020. Our analysis suggests that herd immunity thresholds are being achieved despite strict social distancing measures.”

Her argument

“I would not dream to suggest that policy should be guided by these views alone, but shouldn’t this be a factor among others in debates and decisions about public strategies.”

What is going on? This is very disturbing if dissenting papers are censored in scientific journals. I find it very disturbing.

78766 ▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to swedenborg, 5, #741 of 841 🔗

It’s happened before, regarding statins.

78770 ▶▶ ambwozere, replying to swedenborg, #742 of 841 🔗

Doesn’t follow the government narratives so anyone wanting for the covid fear story to continue will be happy to discredit such an article.

It’s very scary, no critical thinking allowed anymore. And forget about common sense!

78773 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to swedenborg, #743 of 841 🔗

Censorship is real

78781 ▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to swedenborg, 5, #744 of 841 🔗

It happens with Climate ‘Science’. Husband was a well-established academic in energy sphere and was publicly vilified and his work censored. There was a very political left-wing – actually Marxist – agenda, and the mantra ‘you just have to believe’. That agenda comes first, and ‘the science’ that backs up that agenda only is used. He quit as an academic in the early 2000s.

78801 ▶▶ IMoz, replying to swedenborg, #745 of 841 🔗

They do even worse with counter-AGW narrative

78802 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to swedenborg, #746 of 841 🔗

Dissenting papers are always censored, there’s too much money involved.

78849 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to swedenborg, 1, #747 of 841 🔗

That reference to the herd immunity threshold is highly ironic. The standard ‘herd immunity threshold’ is derived from an ultra-simple, artificial model without any evidence whatsoever, except its own output. It is not derived from real world data. Gomes suggests a more sophisticated model that better fits real world data. It seems to me that Gomes is getting a lot closer to that “very high evidence bar” than Neil Ferguson.

78765 Laura Gallagher, 5, #748 of 841 🔗

https://www.idonotcomply.org/about sharing in case useful to anyone else.

78767 Rabbit, replying to Rabbit, 5, #749 of 841 🔗

I know, it’s the Sun let’s hope more of the MSM sites keep running this:


78789 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Rabbit, 4, #750 of 841 🔗

But this is weird.

Matt Hancock will now step in and bring the figures in line with Scotland and Northern Ireland, who only count a death as Covid-related if it occurs 28 days after a person tests positive.
A second weekly measure, which records fatalities within 60 days of infection, will also be established.

It’s as though the government is reluctantly accepting the 28 days cutoff, but just in case it makes the figures look too good, it’s going to draw attention to a ‘worse’ set of figures with a 60 day cutoff. They didn’t have to create that 60-day tier, and no one would have criticised them for it.

An insight into the government’s motivations? It really does look as though they want to keep it looking as bad as possible, even when given an ‘out’.

78796 ▶▶▶ IMoz, replying to Barney McGrew, 1, #751 of 841 🔗

I don’t see why there should be an arbitrary cut off time, it’s not like it’s hard to test the deceased for COVID-19… Just f’king quid padding the numbers—the one thing no epidemiologist would ever consider prior to COVID-19!

78809 ▶▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to IMoz, #752 of 841 🔗

it’s not like it’s hard to test the deceased for COVID-19

Are you sure about that? Isn’t that one of the main topics we discuss? It’s possible to test for the presence of fragments of RNA up to 83 days after the person shows symptoms, but whether or not that equates to them having ‘Covid 19’ is another – philosophical – question. It’s possible to test for antibodies, but some infectees don’t develop them, or they fade because the disease isn’t serious.

And whether it was Covid which killed the deceased is a whole other dimension.

78812 ▶▶▶▶▶ IMoz, replying to Barney McGrew, #753 of 841 🔗

Well, you have the choice between T cell reactivity, antibody, and PCR, and you choose an arbitrary cut off point in time? Which is the one likely to be least reliable?

78844 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to IMoz, #754 of 841 🔗

But I don’t know what it is that you’re trying to do ‘reliably’? If the aim is to ‘test for a Covid-19 death’ then it seems to me that none of them is reliable. But the cutoff of 28 days makes ‘it’ slightly more reliable!

78893 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ IMoz, replying to Barney McGrew, #755 of 841 🔗

I didn’t say reliable, as though reliability is binary, I said don’t use least reliable (to the point that it’s actually entirely arbitrary) .

78800 ▶▶▶ A. Contrarian, replying to Barney McGrew, 3, #756 of 841 🔗

I thought that was very strange too. What are they playing at? No prizes for guessing which set of figures the MSM will be reporting.

78843 ▶▶▶▶ PoshPanic, replying to A. Contrarian, 1, #757 of 841 🔗

It’s arse covering. Handcock admitted on TV in April that there was no study for the effects of lockdown, before going into it. I believe the SAGE minutes confirm this?
If the figures begin to show that a lot of these deaths might not have been been caused Covid1984, then we, the general public have a right to know what caused them.

78780 PD, replying to PD, 6, #758 of 841 🔗

Morning All!
Here’s a thought.
The big social media platforms are avowedly left leaning.
They had egg on their faces when their ‘own’ data was used by Trump and the Brexit campaign to target advertising at specific groups likely to support these campaigns for different reasons.

Post-2017 they have changed their model from being an organic ‘public square’ for sharing ideas to a media channel where ‘approved’ ideas are pushed onto people.

What are so many of our colleagues and neighbours so successfully fearful or compliant or unquestioning of the handling of the plague? Because they have been coerced by social media content designed to appeal to their personality types?

These platforms have simultaneously launched a ‘woke’ broadside where outlandish left wing ideas are being peddled (eg defund the police).
Anyone who shows any ability to think critically or questions any of these narratives is dismissed as a right wing nutter or an anti-vaxxer.

78797 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to PD, 4, #759 of 841 🔗

It’s been going on for ages. I was perma banned on twitter for saying men can’t be women (hate speech), and I was suspended on facebook for a week, with no warning whatsoever, on the same topic, when pointing out that putting men (who think they are women) in women’s prisons might be a bad idea, because men commit (I quoted the data) 99% of all sexual crime, and there is no evidence *anywhere* that a fervent belief that you are not male changes this fact, and as confirmed by the MoJ, over 50% of trans inmates are sex offenders. This violated their ‘hate speech’ rules.

People can however share violent porn, illegal porn, and revenge porn, including child sex abuse on Facebook and it doesn’t violate their community standards. Particularly in this area, there is a really nefarious angle to wokeness, which is about breaking down boundaries in terms of access to vulnerable women and children, and nine times out of ten, if you look at who is really promoting it, they tend to be dodgy as f**k (see the recent case of https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8568833/Paedophile-Labour-councillor-worked-childrens-home-walks-free.html )

Exactly the same thing happened as is happening with lockdown, and the insanity is backed by the UN, the WHO, Amnesty International, etc etc etc.

In fact, it wouldn’t surprise me – given the absolute dereliction of duty going on right now with child safeguarding and lockdown – last I read, only 5% of kids on the at risk register were being properly checked – if some of the biggest backers of continued restrictions, are those who like it because it gives them access to children whilst no one is looking. I can’t imagine the bad men of Telford, for instance, have stopped driving kids around in the boots of cars to share them out at little parties. At least if they were in school, one decent adult would be clapping eyes on them once a day.

78803 ▶▶ Biker, replying to PD, 3, #760 of 841 🔗

Do what i do and tell anyone who says to me that i’m right wing explain to them how right wing isn’t right wing enough for me and i had my way i’d dismantle almost every single thing the government does and you’d be left to work and live from your own efforts taking nothing of mine to hand out to others and people who haven’t made provisions for themselves in old age or sickness. Tell them they are cowards hiding behind the government guns and they make you feel like puking blood. Surprisingly i’m still well liked by my friends, most people already feel what i just said but they haven’t the courage to say it or even admit it but we all know what’s mine is mine and you embarrass yourself if you try and claim otherwise.
That kind of shit to a lefty or a conformist just blows their mind leaving them speechless and yet filled with more virtue so they can lie with more conviction that they aren’t just as self interested as i am.

78829 ▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Biker, 2, #761 of 841 🔗

I’m definitely in favour of natural justice when it comes to child abuse, and rape, our court system is entirely broken. I think we’d then see a large drop in sex crimes, because there’d actually be consequences.

78882 ▶▶ Mark, replying to PD, 4, #762 of 841 🔗

“First they came for the racists, the homophobes and the sexists…etc”

Hate speech was always the beginning of the end of political freedom of speech, It’s just that most people were too stupid, hypocritical or intentionally corrupt to grasp that the cant they endlessly repeated when it suited their purposes actually had real meaning and applied in this case. Once you start to infringe liberty by intolerance of opinions you dislike, you open the door for creeping oppression, which will spread inexorably to other areas.

We saw it spread first to be used against non-“racist” opponents of mass immigration generally (the always intended targets) and to Brexit advocates, then to feminists who fell foul of the “homophobia” nonsense in relation to trans stuff, and then we saw the structures developed for use against “hate speech” used against supposed “misinformation” to suppress dissent against the coronapanic.

Either you have complete political freedom of speech, or you have tools for censorship that will fall into the hands of zealots,, eventually. And the supposed distinction between state censorship and “cancel culture” censorship is in practice nonsense as well. You are just as effectively censored if it’s imposed by systematic cultural intolerance as by government fiat, as we are finding out today. Meaningful freedom of speech requires platforms that are genuinely neutral, and genuinely neutral means that they cannot be influenced to censor by people claiming to be “offended” by opinions they are intolerant of. That’s what the big tech companies pretended to be early on, but gradually transitioned out of as they were either taken over by people without the libertarian ideals of many of the founders, or those founders grew less tolerant as they became less idealistic..

78784 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 7, #763 of 841 🔗


“Elderly people including some still infected with COVID-19 will be returned to the site of Australia’s deadliest outbreak as early as this weekend under a repatriation plan being developed by St Basil’s Homes for the Aged and the federal government.

Melbourne is following NYC,UK style of emptying hospitals to receive younger patients by sending elderly infected patients back to the community(care homes). You do not need to be an epidemiologist to know the end result.

78798 ▶▶ Biker, replying to swedenborg, 14, #764 of 841 🔗

not enough dead in Australia to satisfy the globalists so they’ll just have to send sick old people out as weapons to kill loads of old people. The most repugnant thing of all being your average nurse or doctor goes along with it. They shouldn’t be excused. You couldn’t use the i’m only following orders excuse in a war tribunal so you shouldn’t be allowed to in this case especially when you’ve handed over people you know will kill others. or maybe every scarier than that is these doctors and nurse don’t know what they’re doing.

78816 ▶▶ stefarm, replying to swedenborg, 5, #765 of 841 🔗

Genocide is the intentional action to destroy a people—usually defined as an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group—in whole or in part.

78786 BecJT, replying to BecJT, 3, #766 of 841 🔗

The absolute state of full fact, they are at it AGAIN!!! https://fullfact.org/health/local-guide-covid-cases/

They elide cases and ‘infections, and do not talk about hospitalisations and deaths, let alone the unreliability of the PCR test, or indeed what it is testing for.

You can annoy them with the little feedback button at the bottom of the article.

78794 ▶▶ karenovirus, replying to BecJT, 2, #767 of 841 🔗

“Was this item (?) useful to you ?” No.
“Why not ?”
Replied ‘you do not tell us of the greatly reduced number of deaths”

78814 ▶▶ BTLnewbie, replying to BecJT, 2, #768 of 841 🔗

Done, thanks. Every little helps.

78835 ▶▶▶ Margaret, replying to BTLnewbie, 1, #769 of 841 🔗

Me too.

78830 ▶▶ Sarigan, replying to BecJT, 3, #770 of 841 🔗

Replied with a bit pinched from here:

PCR tests currently being carried out in the UK can’t distinguish between the live replicating virus and non-infectious viral debris.

PCR test results are completely unjustified and may be based on results from people who have already ‘zapped’ the virus some time ago.

78787 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 3, #771 of 841 🔗


“This is big: Confidential study by Dutch scientific advisory board concluded that HVAC system (and hence aerosols) played a role in outbreaks in nursing homes.
“All employees wore surgical masks btw (except during breaks). To be sure, the document says the evidence is “suggestive of aerosol transmission” & that more research is being done before the final conclusions are published. But they have alerted nursing homes abt the findings.


This is a google translation from Dutch..They found virus in the ventilation system

78856 ▶▶ PoshPanic, replying to swedenborg, 1, #772 of 841 🔗

I think it was Prof John Nichols, who called this as the route to transmission, way back in early March. Their studies from the SARS outbreak, had found poor plumbing and ventilation had spread the virus through buildings.

78885 ▶▶▶ swedenborg, replying to PoshPanic, 1, #773 of 841 🔗

And perhaps Alexander Lukashenko Belarus about risk in schools
Open the windows!

78788 hotrod, replying to hotrod, 13, #774 of 841 🔗

The Mail and The Sun appearing to be turning.

Add in the Nick Triggle piece and Newsnight yesterday.

78791 ▶▶ karenovirus, replying to hotrod, 1, #775 of 841 🔗

Sorry, replied to wrong post but good news anyway.

78792 Jane in France, replying to Jane in France, 20, #776 of 841 🔗

From a comment I read. Old man with lots of health issues, including difficulty breathing. Also partially deaf. Would his doctor give him a mask exemption? No. Instead doctor wrote him a prescription for an FFFP1! No chance here to print a lanyard off the internet. So the man puts on the mask but doesn’t cover his nose and queues up at the fish counter in a supermarket. Woman beside him in the queue asks him to wear his mask properly. “Did I ask you if your grandmother rode a bicycle?” says the man. Now there’s an answer to shut up a busybody. Only it didn’t. The woman selling fish put in her tuppenceworth. The security guard is called. (For an old man whose wife’s on crutches, mind you.) But the old man puts the security guard in his place too. “The law says I’ve to wear a mask. Look, I’m wearing one. It doesn’t say anything about how or where. End of story.”

78815 ▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Jane in France, 1, #777 of 841 🔗

Yep, he’s right.

The legislation describes the face coverings that are acceptable and says they have to be worn.

Nothing in the legislation says it must be on the face or covering the nose for mouth or worn as per manufacturer’s instructions – which would be good a step back of mask boxes state “not for medical use” or “not to be sued as PPE” or “no protection against viruses” .

Definition of the verb “to wear” on merriam Webster:

transitive verb
: to bear or have on the person

78795 stefarm, 4, #778 of 841 🔗

New announced from Boris.

Covid – we can’t polish a turd but can roll it in glitter!

78804 swedenborg, 9, #779 of 841 🔗


“I have argued that Afghanistan has hit herd immunity. There is even less doubt now as a small local antibody test has shown that 31.5% of the surveyed have been infected.


Afghanistan 37000 cases 1300 deaths and estimated 10 million infected

78805 Biker, replying to Biker, 19, #780 of 841 🔗

Some people are saying Labour should be getting the tories by using the real data and all the stuff talked about on here but Starmer is one of them bought and paid for secret government types. Just like Corbyn was a MI5 agent. All angles are covered by the state. Everything that our culture debates and argues over is all controlled by the same hand. The only debate not allowed is personal autonomy. No question of a massive downsize of the government and a return to a free market. No question that us humans can lives our lives to the best of our own abilities left alone to enjoy or not our own work. We are prisoners in a world wide economic prison where the state makes the rules and the public, most of whom are only too happy, guard themselves. We pay for our own tyranny.
I’m afraid that only a handful of people understand what we are even missing out on, most haven’t the scoobiest they are still being treated like school children. Oh and don’t be thinking i’m alright jack, fuck it i’m loaded because this isn’t about money or careers but about your right on planet earth to live as you choose with respecting the property rights of others as virtually the only laws we require. To me we live in a communist society where there isn’t a thing you can think of that hasn’t got a law. The virus stupidity let slip how deep the problem really is.
So we’re all fucked, doomed, finished. You better start getting some kicks now because the tomorrow these fuckers have in store for us looks like China and China is a backward dog eating nightmare hell of unimaginable tortures where human life is less valuable than a handful of rice.
Still we’ve to get a few sunny days and i’m going use them to go for a ride

78813 ▶▶ Castendo, replying to Biker, 3, #781 of 841 🔗

And use cash while you can

78832 ▶▶ Bruno, replying to Biker, 1, #782 of 841 🔗

Up with Anarchy!
Except doesn’t work:
‘In 1997, Albania fell into a state of anarchy, mainly due to the heavy losses of money caused by the collapse of pyramid firms. As a result of the societal collapse, heavily armed criminals roamed freely with near total impunity. There were often 3–4 gangs per city, especially in the south, where the police did not have sufficient resources to deal with gang-related crime.’

78836 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Biker, 1, #783 of 841 🔗

Seems to me people on the left should be looking for some genuine politicos to support instead of Labour just as much as those on the right like me should be looking for an alternative to the right of the “Conservatives”. Some meaningful choices needed in our politics.

You could argue for the LibDems or Greens on the left I suppose, but the former seem as coopted as ConLab, and the latter too loony (but it’s not my opinion that counts, there). On the right there was UKIP and other Brexit parties, but they were single issue and that issue (hopefully) is decided, or will be soon. There’s the odd fringe nationalist party on the right, sch as EDL etc, but nothing yet that strikes the correct tone for me, at least.

Of course, party politics can only get us so far. It’s more about a generally bolshy and uncooperative attitude towards governmental nonsense imo.

78839 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Mark, #784 of 841 🔗

The SDP? They are a bit leftish economically for my taste, but given what we see the Tories doing currently on that front it can’t be much worse, and they seem sounder on social issues, immigration, nation states, freedom of speech (sounder if you’re “right wing” on those issues, that is…).

78851 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Julian, #785 of 841 🔗

Didn’t like the SDP back when they were big, so haven’t paid much attention to them now they are fringe. I suspect there would be a place for them if you live in a strongly Labour constituency where the best you can hope for is some social conservative sanity combined with leftish economics, based on your description.

78853 ▶▶ Moomin, replying to Biker, 8, #786 of 841 🔗

Hi Biker,

I effectively spelled it out for Kier Starmer in a letter at the beginning of May, here’s part of it:

“I’m not writing this to ‘score points’ over one party, I am not a member of any political party so I have no ‘ulterior motive’, I’m simply writing because it seems that we are sleepwalking into a socioeconomic disaster and only a minority of people is speaking up about it. There seems to have been unthinking, blanket acceptance that the lockdown is the ‘right thing to do’, yet the objective evidence seems to say otherwise.

Many people say that Covid19 is the biggest threat that this country has faced for decades, yet according to the science that doesn’t appear to be the case, it would appear that there have been similar outbreaks in the recent past that have not received such attention, for example, there were approximately 50,000 excess deaths in 2017-2018 according to the ONS.

On the contrary, the biggest threat that this country has faced for decades is the government’s panic and irrational response that threatens the life and livelihoods of thousands of people.

The government’s policy appears to be short-sighted at best and we could be witnessing the unfolding of one of this country’s greatest ever (avoidable) tragedies.

As the leader of the Opposition can I respectfully ask you to consider the whole picture when contemplating your questions and to swim against the tide of public opinion and to look at this situation objectively and based on the evidence against the efficacy of a lockdown that is freely available in the public domain.

On 7 th May 2020 I see that you have been quoted as saying that, ‘The health and safety of the nation needs to come first’. I agree and I simply want what is best for the health of this nation in the short, medium and long term since with every passing day of lockdown this health is being jeopardised.”

I received a party line reply from one of his team, to which I replied the following:

Whilst I appreciate the fact that you have responded, I note that you have failed to meaningfully engage in any way with the issues that I raised and with the questions that I suggested for Sir Starmer.

Your email states that, ‘ Our priority is protecting the public’s health and saving lives. That is why we supported the lockdown and again support the restrictions staying in place at this time.’

However, your failure to see this situation for what it really is, namely an unnecessary and self-inflicted national disaster that followed the example of a Chinese communist dictatorship, went against WHO recommendations and even, it would appear, went against the advice of SAGE and thus did not follow ‘the science’, despite the fact that I practically spelled it out for you in my emails, just goes to show how far removed your party is from reality.

You state that your priority is to protect the public’s health and save lives, yet you support a government policy that has condemned thousands to death, that has caused the unnecessary closure of thousands of businesses, that has resulted in numerous redundancies, that has caused high unemployment, that has undermined the education of thousands of innocent children and young adults, that has curtailed our civil liberties and that has failed to protect the vulnerable, to name but a few things. Tell me, in all honesty, how is that ‘protecting the public’s health and saving lives’?

Perhaps it should come as no surprise that your party supports the government since its policy is the most socialist policy that a conservative government has ever implemented. However, your failure to stand up for the truth and for the well being of the British people by opposing the lockdown means that you are complicit in the degeneration and destruction of our society.

I am surprised, saddened and disheartened that Sir Starmer, as a qualified lawyer, has failed to objectively look at the evidence that is available to him that shows that a lockdown is ineffective and has failed to see and have the courage to take the opportunity to do the right thing and to stand up for the truth.

When the history books are written over this whole fiasco no doubt some will comment on the massive lost opportunity that this has been for the Labour party, supposedly the party of the people, to totally undermine this shambolic government.

These are dark days for British politics, with a government that has no idea what it’s doing and an opposition that poses no opposition whatsoever.

Your email mentions about using ‘time wisely’, yet, sadly, wisdom and common sense has been seriously lacking in this country over the past few months, including from the opposition.”

Basically, Kier Starmer has wasted a massive opportunity.

78862 ▶▶▶ Cicatriz, replying to Moomin, #787 of 841 🔗

Good points all. I think you meant millions rather than thousands in several places thuogh.

78879 ▶▶▶ Cbird, replying to Moomin, #788 of 841 🔗

Brilliant Kevin. I have suggested a forum section (under Politics ….) for posting letters to MPs. I posted one I sent to Sir Graham Brady there yesterday. Maybe you could post this there for the record?

78880 ▶▶▶ Sam Vimes, replying to Moomin, #789 of 841 🔗

Good stuff, Kevin. But we all know, it all gets ignored. The only thing that will shift any of them is if they really, really think they are going to lose votes. Then they will turn on a sixpence. Look at my town; it votes Labour, that’s it. Grooming gangs, bent MPs, you name it, they still vote Labour. If you installed Adolf Hitler as Labour leader today, with the Ku Klux Klan as shadow cabinet, they would vote Labour in an election tomorrow. Lost.

78912 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Biker, -1, #790 of 841 🔗

Starmer is likely paid ‘opposition’. I read a while back that the reason Kinnock’s family has been and continues to be so well-provided for in the EU is that he was ‘groomed’ by people higher up to *play the role* of a ‘useless’ opposition leader, on the promise that he would subsequently be ‘well looked-after’, and that has proved to be the case…

78807 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 3, #791 of 841 🔗


A rather intriguing study from US using smart phones to localize staff working in multiple location despite rules against in outbreaks

 “The full extent of staff connections between nursing homes—and the crucial role these connections serve in spreading a highly contagious respiratory infection—is currently unknown given the lack of centralized data on cross-facility nursing home employment. In this paper, we perform the first large-scale analysis of nursing home connections via shared staff using device-level geolocation data from 30 million smartphones, and find that 7 percent of smartphones appearing in a nursing home also appeared in at least one other facility—even after visitor restrictions were imposed.
“Results suggest that eliminating staff linkages between nursing homes could reduce COVID-19 infections in nursing homes by 44 percent

78915 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to swedenborg, #792 of 841 🔗

Quite likely a contributing factor in what happened in care homes in Sweden – lots of people here on multiple part-time contracts in different homes.

78810 Awkward Git, replying to Awkward Git, 10, #793 of 841 🔗

I know it’s the Daily Fail but if they say 10% of covid-19 deaths to be removed from the numbers you can bet it’s a lot more in reality:


78821 ▶▶ BecJT, replying to Awkward Git, 9, #794 of 841 🔗

Heneghan is hitting just the right tone I think, not naked scepticism but spreading it wherever he goes.

78823 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to BecJT, 4, #795 of 841 🔗

Exactly. I’ve had responses from friends who will listen to him where they are turned off by more direct sceptics such as Wittkowski, because he isn’t dogmatic about the situation but just questioning and unassertive.

Different approaches work in different situations and with different people, basically.

78831 ▶▶▶▶ BecJT, replying to Mark, 15, #796 of 841 🔗

I think for people who are very frightened (or as I suspect is more the case now, who are embarrassed about how frightened they’ve been) he allows them a way out.

One thing I’ve learned in all the campaigning I’ve done over the years, nobody is ever going to say, ‘thank you for that, I am totally wrong, and you are right, what on earth was I thinking?’ – it just doesn’t happen. People need a graceful exit. We all hate being wrong, and I think as this goes on we’re going to have to resist the temptation to rub it in and say ‘I told you so’.

78838 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to BecJT, 3, #797 of 841 🔗

Indeed, and that’s very frustrating for those who have had to put up with as much outright stupidity, costly nonsense and literal abuse as we have for resisting their idiocy.

78846 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Moomin, replying to Mark, #798 of 841 🔗

Agreed, it’s really hard.

78842 ▶▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to BecJT, #799 of 841 🔗

True. There is also the Yin and Yang method. Either a slow realisation or a thump on the back jolting you into enlightenment. Either way the conversation you have after is a lot easier

78845 ▶▶▶▶▶ Moomin, replying to BecJT, 1, #800 of 841 🔗

Well said!

78865 ▶▶ DressageRider, replying to Awkward Git, #801 of 841 🔗

It’s not a bad article and the comments are very encouraging.

78872 ▶▶ Harry hopkins, replying to Awkward Git, #802 of 841 🔗

Ahhh! numbers!

The world is governed by numbers. There are 9.6 million Jehovas witnesses on the planet and the number at the heart of their beliefs is 144,000–no more no less. This is the number of people who will go to heaven, the remainder having to live out their lives by re-birth in a paradise on earth.

If nine million people voluntarily believe this— and we are talking intelligent, educated, well off decent sorts—does it come as any surprise when governments the world over use numbers (any old rubbish, it doesn’t matter) to further their nefarious aims?

Use the evidence of your eyes and experience to guide your judgement. Numbers can mean anything and everything to those who weaponise them.

78878 ▶▶ Gillian Swanson, replying to Awkward Git, #803 of 841 🔗

This article suggests it should be a lot more in America – no doubt much the same here: https://childrenshealthdefense.org/news/if-covid-fatalities-were-90-2-lower-how-would-you-feel-about-schools-reopening/

78819 A. Contrarian, replying to A. Contrarian, 24, #804 of 841 🔗


Calling for the government to rule out another national lockdown or a London lockdown, because “To view this pandemic as a binary of health vs economics would be misguided. We now know that lockdown causes severe economic and wider health costs.” (emphasis mine)

I just do not understand why we keep hearing things like this. What did people think would happen if people were confined to their homes and prevented from carrying out work, education and leisure activities and denied access to healthcare? How, how, how can it come as such a surprise? I have zero knowledge or interest in economics but it was glaringly obvious to me from day one that this would be the result. I just don’t get it!

78820 ▶▶ IMoz, replying to A. Contrarian, 4, #805 of 841 🔗

What did people think would happen if

What gave you the idea that people “think” as a matter of course?

78827 ▶▶ Mark, replying to A. Contrarian, 2, #806 of 841 🔗

Haven’t read the article because I don’t subscribe to the Spec, but often “we now know that ….” is a euphemism from someone who has said something all along for “you [finally, you halfwits] can’t any longer dispute that…”

78837 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to A. Contrarian, 2, #807 of 841 🔗

Yes, if in March you had predicted it (as we, in fact, all did), the ‘midwits’ would have said “There is no evidence for that..” or “where is your data?”.

78864 ▶▶▶ Stuart Barker, replying to Barney McGrew, #808 of 841 🔗

Even worse you were undoubtedly a ‘granny-killer’ who put the profit of evil corporations above people’s lives (said in as shrill a voice as possible…).

78854 ▶▶ Cicatriz, replying to A. Contrarian, 1, #809 of 841 🔗

“We now know”

Funnily enough, I was saying this from the start. Now, admittedly, I’m not an economist or a health expert. However, it seemed pretty obvious to me from the start that it’s the economy which pays for (via taxes) and provides for (via productivity) the health service. This is before we even take into account any of the other hundreds of obvious things the economy does that are related to well-being.

78824 Phoenix44, replying to Phoenix44, 6, #810 of 841 🔗

Track & trace cannot work because the numbers don’t work. If a large proportion of cases are asymptomatic, most cases will never even be identified. Say 60% straight off missed. Then tracing is always less than perfect – say 70% which means 30% missed. Then there’s false negatives in testing – said to be as high as 30%. You can model it simply, and very quickly in an active epidemic T&T has no real effect. Governments were fooled by South Korea, where whatever led to low cases, it wasn’t T&T.

78833 ▶▶ tonys, replying to Phoenix44, 1, #811 of 841 🔗

An Innate resistance or immunity mistaken as ‘asymptomatic infection’ I suspect.

78826 Sam Vimes, replying to Sam Vimes, 1, #812 of 841 🔗

Off topic – or is it? I’ve got Office 2016 via a Microsoft account I bought on Ebay. Notice pops up “password needs updating”. No worries, it’s happened before, just log in and change it. Ooh look – they want me to have an app and provide a phone number for ‘authentication’. Funny that should happen just now. Fortunately, the licence cost £1.49, so it will be easy to say goodbye.

78840 ▶▶ Andrew Fish, replying to Sam Vimes, 1, #813 of 841 🔗

Two-factor authentication has been rolling out for a while now. It’s definitely a way of harvesting mobile numbers, but I imagine that’s more for spam than tracking.

78847 ▶▶▶ Sam Vimes, replying to Andrew Fish, #814 of 841 🔗

I don’t want Bill ringing me when I’m washing my hair, so it’ll either be a licence key or open source for me.

78855 ▶▶▶▶ Andrew Fish, replying to Sam Vimes, #815 of 841 🔗

I feel the same – fortunately you can also authenticate via an app so I use my work iPad instead.

78857 ▶▶ Tenchy, replying to Sam Vimes, #816 of 841 🔗

Amazon, eBay, PayPal – they’re all after your mobile. I say No. Is there no alternative method for MS-Office, via email or something? How are people without a mobile manage going to manage this?

78867 ▶▶▶ Sam Vimes, replying to Tenchy, #817 of 841 🔗

At a quick look, it appears to be just App or phone call, can’t be arsed delving into it. They’re not getting either of them.

78908 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Sam Vimes, #818 of 841 🔗

Got email from paypal making the registering of your phone number mandatory – wonder why???!!!
So blatant what they are up to – get details by any means necessary.. stop online shopping if you don’t provide a phone number..

79242 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Sam Vimes, #819 of 841 🔗

Paypal doing the same, asking for mobile number..

78841 Ewan Duffy, 3, #820 of 841 🔗

Headline in the Irish Independent (paywall so I haven’t linked):

Diminished cancer services and fears of 130pc increase in waiting lists: The Covid disaster health chiefs want to keep secret”
Apart from describing it is a “Covid” disaster as opposed to a lockdown disaster, the media in Ireland is finally waking up.

78852 Nobody2020, replying to Nobody2020, #821 of 841 🔗

May be worth signing this petition as one way to start holding the government to account:

Come clean about PPE and publish all the contracts

78868 ▶▶ matt, replying to Nobody2020, 4, #822 of 841 🔗

No. PPE, testing capacity, too slow into lockdown, too fast out of lock down, Dominic Cummings and Barnard Castle… all neat little distractions from the main event. The government want us to focus on operational details so that we don’t pay attention to the elephant. Labour are playing this game, I won’t.

78859 Cheezilla, replying to Cheezilla, 3, #823 of 841 🔗

The first beavers to live wild in Britain for centuries are to be allowed to remain in their new home on the River Otter in east Devon after a five-year reintroduction trial.
The government gave permission on Thursday for the reestablished colony to remain in the area, the first wild breeding of beavers in 400 years and the first legally sanctioned reintroduction of an extinct native mammal to England.

Is Mutt Wankock in charge of wildlife now? Allowed and permission , sound eerily familiar!

78876 ▶▶ karenovirus, replying to Cheezilla, #824 of 841 🔗

it’s in the name wancock, river Otter, by Ottery St. Mary.

78861 NonCompliant, 1, #825 of 841 🔗

@TobyYoung it would be good if you could try and promote the site via parler. Not a single post from you since 24th June.

78873 Cheezilla, replying to Cheezilla, 3, #826 of 841 🔗

This would be hilarious – if we weren’t being held to ransom because of it:

Rupert Soames , the boss of outsourcing giant Serco has defended the fact that the average contact tracer has contacted 2.4 people each, as part of the test-and-trace system, saying it is “improving all the time”.

Serco’s chief executive, told Today:

“Let me tell you, we’ve got 10 Nightingale hospitals lying vacant, we’ve got 30,000 ventilators that are not being used. The government has to start somewhere with capacity and the fact is that we’ve got too much capacity, or more capacity than we need right here, right now, today.
But, naturally, the government has taken a decision to over-provide to begin with on the basis that we can always reduce it.
I mean, we could increase the number of calls per agent by reducing the number of agents who are there and I am pretty sure that the government, over the coming weeks, is going to start reducing the number that we have. But you would expect it to start at a high level and then try to adapt it.”

(From Grad live)

78886 ▶▶ karenovirus, replying to Cheezilla, 3, #827 of 841 🔗

Nobody to track = nobody to trace

78892 ▶▶ DressageRider, replying to Cheezilla, #828 of 841 🔗


78877 Simon, replying to Simon, 3, #829 of 841 🔗

I wonder how easy it would be to buy the staff uniform of your favourite supermarket.

You could go in unmasked and totally unchallenged. You could aslo stand at the door announcing no mask required, do what you like kind of thing.

78889 ▶▶ Gerry Mandarin, replying to Simon, 1, #830 of 841 🔗

And if you could come up with a good enough excuse, you could refuse entry to anyone wearing a mask!

78894 ▶▶▶ Tom Blackburn, replying to Gerry Mandarin, 1, #831 of 841 🔗

haha…like it

78883 TheBluePill, replying to TheBluePill, 2, #832 of 841 🔗

Does anyone else wonder if we will eventually get coronovirus denier laws and prison sentences? There don’t seem to be many more routes left for our glorious leaders to weazle their way out of this lie, while avoiding their own well-deserved prison sentences. (Note I am absolutely not making any comparison to the Holocaust)

78884 ▶▶ Sam Vimes, replying to TheBluePill, 2, #833 of 841 🔗

Anything is possible, TBP. In a land where it is illegal to visit your friends or relatives in their own home… Anything.

78891 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 2, #834 of 841 🔗

It is disappointing that there is no real reporting with data about the current  upsurge of cases in Europe which would be of utmost interest to analyse whether it is the last phase of the first wave, the second wave or a testing artefact.

You would first need data clean without serology tests, which seems to be reported together with PCR cases in some countries.

You would then need the percentage of PCR test positive of all test done, then asymptomatic or not, and if test being part of surveillance/occupational health screening or tests required by patients with symptoms. Then assessment whether cases have been abroad. Then new Covid-19 hospitalizations and deaths from Covid-19 (and deaths should be from new cases, not deaths occurring late from the first peak). Finally, information in which locality the cases occurred and whether it corresponds or not with the primary outbreak.

You would think ECDC would have that information but can’t find any useful information anywhere. Governments now imposing local lockdowns or restrictions and new quarantines from different countries should be guided by these data in the first place.

Spain clearly have an upsurge in all categories above and also a real outbreak with clinical cases, hospitalization and deaths in Aragon, a province not affected much in the March outbreak. That points to the final round of the primary pandemic and not really a second wave.
But what about the other countries? Any information about the number of new cases from Indian Subcontinent considering the big outbreak there and connection with UK? UK citizens coming back, have they been in quarantine? You would think PHE would have that information.
France. There are rumours that the current surge of cases in Marseille region are French citizens and others coming back from North Africa where the pandemic is in full play (This is similar in Texas, Arizona, and California with lots of cases in US citizen coming back from Mexico)
Germany. How many are in meat packing plants, fruit pickers from Romania etc?
Belgium, Netherlands, Poland, Romania and Greece have increasing numbers but nobody seems to have a clue which category they belong.

79483 ▶▶ Castendo, replying to swedenborg, #835 of 841 🔗

I won’t buy the blame game. My personal reason for not giving a s is that we are talking about a flu like ‘disease’ with an IFR of 0,1-0,2 % with an incubation period of about 4 days and some sort of closure after three weaks…

about 1% or a little more of the population everywhere dies every year..

78896 stefarm, 1, #836 of 841 🔗

What a wonderful country we are living in.


78898 Cheezilla, 1, #837 of 841 🔗

New LS News now available.
Thanks Toby!

78911 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 17, #838 of 841 🔗


 “Eureka! France: Court orders city of Strasbourg to remove requirement of mask-wearing in public spaces! Wearing a mask is unjustified because of the absence of a health emergency and the order to wear a mask infringes upon the right to a private life”

And only from France

78925 ▶▶ Mark, replying to swedenborg, 3, #839 of 841 🔗

Bloody hell! Human rights law actually comes in useful for something!

78930 ▶▶ Mark, replying to swedenborg, 2, #840 of 841 🔗

Definitely should repost on today’s page (now up).

79310 Dan, 2, #841 of 841 🔗

My idea to spread the word: if they want masks let’s give them masks everyone should start wearing one around their arm like a captains arm band with a message sharpied on it like “ the government is lying” or something to that effect


180 users made 841 comments today.

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-3Edgar Friendly-3