2020-08-07

I posted on yesterday’s LS comment section about a F***book (whoops!) thread I’d commented on where one of the responses was ‘I’d rather believe the combined wisdom of WHO than one person with a degree’.

Update – after a couple more exchanges the following comment was made “In what on earth (sic!) could you possibly have a degree when you clearly DON’T know what you’re talking about and demonstrate that you lack even basic knowledge?”

So. Stating a TRUE fact (I HAVE a degree in Microbiology!), the response is that! This is what fact and data driven arguments are met with, and one of the main reasons why emotive and emotionally driven fact free and date free narratives can be disseminated by the government, and BELIEVED!

I’m staggered.

DavidC

The irrationality is all around us. All we can do is be rational, be positive and be true to the culture of our forebears that has given us so much wonderful freedom.

Sadly Johnson is being irrational, promoting negative thinking and totally destroying our beautiful legacy of freedom.

OKUK,
Right on both comments, and many thanks for them!

DavidC

As someone with multiple degrees and a professional degree I can only feel your pain! My usual response to similar situations is along the lines of “a good scientist is one who relies only on his own analysis; if you choose to belive someone else’s words as to what is better for you, you are no better than a pet for which the owner makes all decisions and gives the pet an illusion of free will. And if that’s the case, we have nothing to discuss.” A wise man knows when to walk away

IMoz,
You’re absolutely right!. I’ve responded to that comment (and another similar one) saying that my mind is open to persuasion if they can present facts, data and links. Unlikely(!) so those are my final comments to them both, I won’t try to engage them any further. Why I should continue to be surprised by completely closed minds like that I don’t know, but I do.

DavidC

Exactly, true scientist admits the possibility of being wrong, which is why every time someone says to me “look this paper proves, let’s say, masks are useful”… So I might be wrong, I read it… then point out that the study was, for example, ruined by the unadjusted use of TamiFlu (there is one study that Royal Society relied on and they spelled out that they administered TamiFlu and didn’t bother adjusting for it, and the RS actually used that study in support of masks (well, as well as many other patently flawed ones!)) I mean seriously, wtf—you’d have thought if you are putting your reputation on the line at least you bother to read the thing yourself?!

Spot on IMoz.

There were several occasions in the last part of my career (I describe it as doing exactly that, careering from one thing to another) where I was introduced to people, to be met with ‘Oh, you’re the legend DavidC’ (well, my surname was used!). My response was always the same , ‘Er, no, I think you mean the leg end DavidC’.

A lack of self confidence has always been the bane and downside of my career, but the upside (I think, if there is one!) has always been a questioning mind and not taking things at face value. I’d rather have the morality, integrity and freedom to think over the money and being confined to a certain way of thinking.

More fool me…

DavidC

A questioning mind is at the heart of it all! When you question, you are also liberated by mistakes you might make/made:its a process of learning!

The Royal Society is a corrupt organisation. The clue is in the name.

Evidence?

That Krishnawhatsit chap, spoke in favour of masking. Bent as nine bob notes.

This is exactly what horrifies the still in sofar enlightend people since March, and why hundreds of thousands of them took to streets in Berlin last Saturday, and will do so again on 29.8.
All they want, is that alternative viewpoints, studies, research and true science by renowned experts are published in the mainstream media and acknowledged by decision makers before making their decisions, instead of just being diffamated, or ignored or censored.
And then, these experts should debate their thesis’ with the government’s ones, in public.
Those who have the more convincing arguments will then automatically and fairly have shaped public opinion and government policy by having won the scientific argument- which is currently simply not taking place and as such not existing!

The problem of us enlightend and truly liberal and truly scientific people is, that the other side is not in interested in that approach, true science, a compromise, or best-practice at all- and that most of their audience and our compatriots are judt fine with that as they have been successfully dumbed down, frightened and brainwashed by them already.
They are fanatical ideologues and leaders and part of a crowd of as such like-minded people who have thereby alone lost their ability to do critical thinking (Lebon), which makes a debate completely impossible.
We must realize that and start acting accordingly, from Corona, via climate change, BLM, cancel culture etc. to Antifa as well as to any such right-wing intolerance.

Agreed, Jay

A huge part of the problem in UK academia and public service is Common Purpose. They don’t do ‘convincing arguments shaping public opinion’. This is what makes them a serious threat.

You don’t need a degree- just critical faculties and actually to use them. As for the WHO, even if you’re prepared to accept their ‘wisdom ‘ without challenge, that doesn’t help when they contradict themselves. But that’s why there’s no such thing as they Science’ – it should be constantly evolving and updated in the face of real data

I totally agree—quite a lot of the time, especially recently, the degree is more of an indoctrination and a hindrance than ability to critically think. It’s one of the reasons why I just set out my argument and evidence, and don’t say “listen to me because I have X degree, Y degree, and a Z degree”

Luckily. I did my first degree when the tutors would tell you to f*ck off and find the answer yourself or fail; nowadays, spoon-feeding is not only the norm, but expected. Even back in 00s access to information was limites, nowadays, if you’re keen, you can easity find pretty much everything only, just need the brain to filter wheat from chaff

Yes, ‘In God we trust, all others must provide data.’

You are staggered by lies from government? I’m shocked!

No.

I’m staggered (albeit why should I be these days?!) that a (TRUE!) declaration of my qualifications and fact and data driven arguments continue to be met with disbelief or denial by people, those same people who believe the fact free and data free narratives by the government. As for the lies by government itself, oh no, I’m never staggered by those!

DavidC

That moron must have a pretty agile (non)-mind if s/he can go on believing the WHO.
Masks are unnecessary for the masses.
Masks are recommended for the masses.
Sweden is wrong.
Sweden isn’t necessarily wrong.
The sun rises in the East.
The sun rises in the West.

It’s definitely not a good idea to assume, as I assume the Facebook poster does, that the WHO is an utterly impartial, unbiased, incorruptible and all-knowing organisation – especially given their record with the 2009 swine flu epidemic.

They probably have no idea what microbiology is. Probably are even unsure what biology is.

Is Biology the study of people who like to have sex with both genders?

They certainly have idea of the difference between bacteria and a virus.

never been a f*c*book or twatter user before. recently i have started to look at twatter for updates on the football transfer rumours. Even on that subject some of the comments clearly show that most users are deranged .
So on important subjects such as covid . climate change .. anything really, it is so depressing that people are equally deranged and fact and logic goes out of the window,
But it is treated so reverentially. The MSM do not help. For any event BBC in particular will quote tweets from non entities as if these are incisive and important statements.. and they have let the twitter storms drive the MSM narrative.
So sad

Quoting twitter comments should simply be against BBC rules. Every day we hear “one user tweeted… another said…” Local TV news are particularly bad at this.

a bit off subject but, can I borrow your collective expertise;
If someone has no symptoms and are asymptomatic were they already effectively immune?
If 80% of people who get the virus are asymptomatic could it be said that over 50 million Brits already had natural immunity?

I would say that this is what people have been talking about in terms of T Cell immunity and immunity conferred by other coronaviruses. And to my mind if you encounter a virus and shake it off without illness, are asymptomatic, you are not unwell. Some one on here wrote that at any one time we are infected with 8 to 12 viruses but not ill just fighting them off.

Thanks Wendy, yep the definition of immunity is…
In biology, immunity is the capability of multicellular organisms to resist harmful microorganisms. Immunity involves both specific and nonspecific components. The nonspecific components act as barriers or eliminators of a wide range of pathogens irrespective of their antigenic make-up.

So if 80% of people are asymptomatic then its reasonable to say 80% of the UK (over 50 million people) were already immune to covid19?

News article after article in The Telegraph and Spectator calmly and sensibly make the obvious case for following Sweden whilst here in Manchester the local authorities want to shut all pubs and bars who allow young people to mix and in Preston the council are calling young people Granny killers. Let’s hope the demonstrations in Germany catch on here ASAP. I have totally had enough of all the stupidity here. We need a strong leader in Government and if Boris can’t do it he must go.

totally agree wendy! it’s completely bonkers. our demonstrations seem to be a bit limp compared to the one in berlin recently. I’m in SW and bit far from london to attend protest and doesn’t seem to be much down here.

Sue: Quick! I’m in the SW too. My son told me yesterday that there is some kind of demo in Plymouth today, but I don’t have any details.

This is what we need! A few more sensible women in charge

Clearly Boris can’t do it. He is the reason we are where we are now.

Let him abandon the withdrawal agreement/transition period first then resign. No way his successor could backtrack on Brexit then, if the transition period ended early due to no agreement being foreseen within the remaining period.

We don’t need another Leader we need a passionate follower of Common Sense.

Perhaps Preston council can name the grannies who the young people have killed.
And as men are at greater risk than women, aren’t they also being very sexist as well as liars??

At least these are online conversations. What is really depressing is friends. A girl I’ve known for nearly fifty years (obviously not a girl any more, but she was when I first met her) – anything but a lockdown sceptic. Guardian reader, in fact. I wrote her a long email pointing out facts and where to find them. She replied “If you can’t cope with friends who do not share your views no wonder you fall out with your friends.” But covid is more than just a difference in views. It’s because of people’s horrifying lack of curiosity that we’re in this mess. Governments couldn’t do this to us if more people took the trouble to glance at the Internet. And covid hangs over every conversation. For example we’ve both had travel plans disrupted. But even that isn’t a neutral topic because she thinks it’s the price to pay for staying safe whereas I – don’t get me started.

What a bizarre response from your ‘friend ‘! I note she didn’t in any way try to debate your facts/sources, going instead for you in a personal/emotional way. That’s is what you get all the time with people like that.

You can’t educate pork!

I had my own family questioning what qualify ‘us’ to make a judgement! I have a Bsc in Genetics (dept. Medicine), an MSc in Biotechnologies (dept. Microbiology); other half has BSc and a PhD in Genetics and a DipM ( Marketing:Data Analysis).

I’m beyond staggered. I’m bloo.. livid!

I have a childhood friend who studied law, she is equally demonised!

Che,
Thank you for your comment.

I went through a ‘black dog’ phase a few weeks ago thinking ‘Is it ME? Have I missed something?’ Thanks to comments such as yours (and respect to your extra qualifications and your other half’s as well, as well as your friend’s!) and those of Lockdown Sceptics, it’s made me feel that maybe my/our viewpoint(s) ARE correct and valid. I have the benefit of being semi retired (I refer to myself as unemployable!) and thus in thrall to NO ONE, being able to base my viewpoint on what I genuinely hope is unbiased and fact driven analysis. But, by heavens, that belief has been stretched to its limit by the mass hysteria surrounding Covid-19. I have Charles McKay’s ‘Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds’ – a thoroughly recommended book even if the language is most assuredly 19th century!

DavidC

The WHO, led by a man who was the health minister for Ethiopia, who lied to the rest of the world and his own people about a cholera outbreak.
He only admitted that there was an outbreak when it spread to neighbouring countries and started killing people there. Up until then, he’d insisted it was just “watery diarrhoea” and not cholera.
The WHO also denies the existence of Taiwan.

If they told me the sky was blue, I’d want to double check for myself.

That’s a wonderful shot of the beach goers. Keep packing them in and enjoy your lives!

Another way of putting it is: ”fuckem”!

Isn’t it just, a shame Toby didn’t reference the fact there was no spikes or anything the last time they all wet themselves when people went to the beach.

I thought that too… probably the most important point. If beachgoers didn’t cause a detectable rise in cases nearly 2 months ago, they certainly won’t now!

What do they expect? Government cancel all summer holidays abroad and people will go to local beaches.

Exactly. The local councils should have realised that and had facilities like extra litter bins all ready to cope. Would have been a better investment than all those ridiculous stickers and pavement-widening paraphernalia.
Doh!!

absolutely – i see the picture and thing ‘good on ’em’ – go and enjoy your life and poke the pathetic naysayers in the eye. I’m not much of a beach person myself or crowds and it wouldn’t be my cup of tea but for those who like it fair enough, go enjoy while you can!!

I thought it was a good example of telephoto lens use!!

Let me see the best number I can find for the UK population is 67,920,084 https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/uk-population/ . So for 46,364 deaths that would be 0.07% or the fact 99.93% haven’t died of the Chinese Wuhan Virus Flu.

According to my calculator it’s 0.0006764706%. Add another zero.

Or maybe you’re another one who doesn’t understand percentages. The answer is 0.068262577, i.e. about 0.07, as nfw posted!

Scratch that, add two more zeros.

I would get a new calculator! You need to multiply your first number you quote above by 100 and not divide by 100!

I multiplied 68,000,000 times .0007 and the answer was 46,000.

I just performed the same calculation online. Same result.

And still wrong.

You are correct but a clearer way of presenting this and avoiding the confusion about percentages and fractions is that of the 67,920,084 people in the UK, 67,873,720 did not die from or with SARS CoV-2 infection.

Send that to Boris.

Please don’t. It might make it more comprehensible for BJ if you told him that fewer than 7 people in ten thousand died. Except you would have told him fewer than 7 in a million. Or 42 people, if UK population c. 60M. He’d have liked that.

420! Or, if you were adding your two zeros, 7 in 100 million, or 4 people in the UK. Even better.

Sorry Richard, afraid the temptation for the answer to be 42 was just too great, forgive me!

Boris will claim that his lockdowns have saved the rest of us. There is a turd where his brain should be.

Nah, he will think its his bank statement

And so far this year in England and Wales 330k people have died from other things that have nothing to do with Covid.

Also worldwide Covid deaths (with or from) make up only 2% of the total deaths so far this year

We should send them tweets , emails, instagrams and whatever else with soundtracks of people laughing hysterically. Maybe a few jokes thrown in for good measure.

Plus the 46k is about to be reduced as surprise surprise PHE have been manipulating the numbers

Knock about 46K off the total and it will be about right.

South Park 2003, SARS1, remember that one? The same LAME virus then that we are all terrified of now.
“There is only a 98% chance that I will live.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3L8yEjOE-6E

Neither have 46,364 died of Covid-19 that is a fairy tale.

And isn’t the annual all mortality figure about 600,000, so just under 1% of the population?

Somebody was talking yesterday about Cummings and his trip Up North. I was in two minds: on the one hand I was glad and hoped folk would see the “great and the good” paid it (lockdown) no never mind.
On the other, it seemed like hypocrisy to acquiesce in the face of what he did.
In the end, I came to the conclusion that we shouldn’t worry about such things – most people are idiots as has been shown recently. Anything that supports the cause (and isn’t Icke levels of batshit crazy) is a good thing – the means justifies the ends.
Last word goes to Abe Lincoln (the original Republican): “I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty – to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy.”

Thanks for the Lincoln quote, Jim. So very apt for us lot in Britain at the moment. Unfortunately.

Icke is much nearer the mark than most, that doesn’t bode well for our future.

“Icke levels of batshit crazy” ? Do fuck off, JBJ.

It’s an odd thing that with the honourable exception of Sweden & Balarous all governments do seem to be acting in exactly the same way you might expect a 7ft lizard to behave!

Maybe I’m old skool, but it’s the lizard people I have in mind. Or is that not his thing?

It is his thing. He has other ideas, but that’s his core principle.

There is an underlying tension here between the “unforgivable incompetence” school and the “globalist agenda” school, with something of a Venn diagram. We bump along, but there are some occasional flair ups. You’re very welcome here, but don’t always expect agreement in every particular.

While I agree with the rest of it, it should be remembered that Icke has a better predictive track record than Prof Pantsdown Ferguson

Good for the sunseekers!

Bournemouth declared a ‘major incident’ weeks back when people dared to sit on the beach. No doubt hundreds of locals died as a result of that outrageous behaviour. Funny it didn’t get reported, though.
What have they got now, a nuclear disaster?

They always do that every time people do something – VE Day, days at the beach, BLM protests. Cue a lot of doom mongering and shrieking.

And nothing has happened. The number of people getting it and dying have been decreasing day after day and yet TPTB and many people still behave as if we’re in the middle of the zombie apocalypse! Still going on and on about a “second wave” even as the economy and what makes life worth living is collapsing in front of our eyes.

I found this a while back so whenever I see people complaining about beach goers ect I post this graph

Excellent!!

We were out in town yesterday evening and went down to Bournemouth pier. A friend was down from London. Even at 7 it was busy on the beach. More mixing of people but not quite cheek to jowl. Was nice though. Lots of happy kids

Happy kids? What is this world coming to? You better start checking out how educators are brainwashing your children or else today’s children will become a new wave of future Sheeple.

I understood that in Bournemouth’s case, “major incident” meant that the council were struggling to cope with the sheer volume of people who’d arrived with cars and litter.

Manchester’s “major incident” however is something more sinister – unless they have an exceptional number of Karens and snitchers over there, in which case there could be civil war.

What would these locals tell the businesses who rely on visitors ? It’s a local shop ,cafe, boozer, chippie for local people.

Been looking at comments on the Preston farce in the Daily Fail. This one is typical:

“We want our Lives back. Stop trying to pretend these measures have stopped the Flu! It has to progress through the population, as it used to. Now our lives are being wrecked because a few, a very few, die! No point in being alive like this. Lets caked [ presumably means ‘wake’ ] up or being threatened with being locked up! All to cover up the massive cock up by Stasi Govt. Where are our MPs in all this? Theyre supposed to represent us, not just hide at home allowing these stupid Fear Addicts to wreck our lives. Its not Living, being threatened with Imprisonment. In Solitary Confinement fir many of us! No better than North Korea or such Dictatorships! We are Prisoners!”

Go read and uptick, it’s encouraging!

Link
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8604915/Preston-gets-lockdown.html#reader-comments

Excellent!

Well said. Should be circulated more!

That’s well said. We shouldn’t be living in fear for a tiny extra risk of death over our lifetime. This country, like many others, has become spineless and pathetic. The worst thing about it is that if we hadn’t had Covid all the moral high ground bedwetting types would have been happy to carry on spreading the flu virus every winter.

I’m 15 minutes down the road from Preston. I hope the lockdown infection doesn’t spread because it will finish off this town.

Infections!?

Lockdown is being spoken of as a sickly purile virus in ots own right by R G. A brain virus I dare say.

Fear spreads like a virus. Only its now looking like the absurdity of these lock ups is causing immunity to lockaway peddling.

Knowing what we know now, knew by 06 Feb, hands up who thinks, in any conceivable scenario, that covid 19, a common cold coronavirus, could have killed 1.5 million people in this country? And how many think a collateral death toll of 16,000 is even close to the truth?

The people writing these reports are fanatical lunatics. We have some kind of education and training system in place that is turning out the batshit crazy in their millions.

The beyond silly ‘precautionary principle’ (remember pictures of mandatory flag men walking in front of early automobiles in this country waving red warning flags?That is the precautionary principle) is being used to kill, maim and otherwise injure, mentally and physically, generations of this country’s population because no-one at a senior level within Whitehall has the balls to point out, even now, at this late stage of staggeringly obvious anticlimax, that the emperor has no clothes.

Agreed. However, the cause of this brainwashing is bigger than the education system alone. As an adult over the last decade I have beensubjected to psychological training telling me to ignore what my eyes and deductive brain tell me. No longer am I allowed to have faith that 2+2=4, and if someone decides that 2+2=7 then both must be correct. Thankfully I, and probably all of you, are stubborn enough to be immune to this.
There are many attack vectors for the brainwashing. If you are stupid enough to watch soaps then that is an obvious big attack vector along with MSM “news” and comedy.
For me, I have found that work has been a growing attack vector (probably the biggest). For example, my company is regarded (and awarded) as one of the most diverse companies in the UK and equality is at their core. However, following BLM, they have now declared that they are racist organisation, and as an employee I now hear no end of it. Positive discrimination is now going to go into overdrive. Employees implicitly trust their seniors and lap this shit up. Eventually they start to automatically think the same way. I openly challenge this crap, and somehow get away with it. Note that I am myself generally liberal and against discrimination in anything other than ability.
There is a pattern that I have seen in multiple organisations. This crap at work is invariably conceived by common purpose “graduates”. The seeds were sown by new labour and they are now ready for harvest. It appears the same was happening abroad.
We have as a country been systematically reprogrammed. I regret not seeing this earlier, having assumed that everyone else hadn’t been completely taken in. Turns out that I had overrated many seemingly intelligent people.
I think we are unfortunately in the new normal and the coronapanic madness is the first big example, to be superseded by other collective madness, until someone presses the red button (perhaps to cure coronovirus).
Sorry, that ended being much more of a rant than intended.

I totally agree, I have been acutely aware of how the brainwashing works for literally the last 20 years. Talking about it has put me firmly in the crazy conspiracy theorist camp with everybody I know.. Well, I was right all along but I am STILL a crazy conspiracy theorist.

That was the intention of Blair’s drive to have 50% of children go to unversity.The majority come out as brainwashed drones and then common purpose finishes the job,by marking out leaders and brainwashing them.The soaps then push the same messages and that takes care of the working classes.Very few people are immune this spirit of the age

This is what SAGE were using 31 March:
‘Annex G: Comparison to unmitigated scenario:
In this section we show the results of comparing the total deaths expected over 12 months with the CSS as compared to the “unmitigated Reasonable Worst Case (RWC) Scenario 31st March”. This is a scenario provided to SAGE to represent what might feasibly have occurred if no changes occurred to reduce the spread of the virus, such as through social distancing measures and other non-pharmaceutical interventions. The results are shown in the table below.
Table 53 Comparison with “unmitigated RWC scenario 31st March”
Comparison with unmitigated RWC scenario
Health impact category CSS (covers 12 months from Mar ‘20 to Mar ’21) Unmitigated RWC Scenario 31st March
A. Direct impact from COVID-19 85,000 COVID-19 deaths
(12 months from March 2020 to end March 2021)
We estimate that around 67,000 of those are
excess deaths.
700,000 years of life lost.
530,000 QALYs lost
504,000 COVID-19
deaths.
439,000 (410,000 to 454,000) excess deaths
4,000,000 (2,700,000 to
5,100,000) years of life lost.
3,000,000 (2,800,000 to 3,500,000) QALYs lost
Comparing this to the mitigated scenario suggests 420,000 COVID-19 deaths would have occurred if mitigations were not
put in place. Of this, we estimate that around 380,000 would be excess deaths, equivalent to 2,500,000 QALYs.
B. Health outcomes for COVID-19 worsened
because of lack of NHS critical care capacity
No impact 1,100,000 COVID-19 deaths
Up to 1,000,000 (900,000 to 1,010,000) excess deaths
11,000,000 (8,600,000 to 15,000,000) years of
life lost
7,400,000 (5,400,000 to 9,600,000) QALYs lost
These are the indirect deaths from COVID-19 due to insufficient critical care beds. We estimate up to 1.1M additional deaths, or
up to 1M excess deaths This takes into account the additional beds that were made available through Nightingale hospitals and
cancelling non-urgent care.
These excess deaths represent up to 9M to 15M years of life lost and 6M to 10M QALYs lost
Discussion:
It is important to note that the estimates for health impacts in Category C and D have not been developed for the unmitigated RWC. It is reasonable to assume a very significant impact Category C, as hospitals would be over-run with COVID-19 patients. The economic impacts are unclear.
Comparing the total impact across Categories A and B suggests that lives saved due to mitigations could total up to 1.5m. This estimate does not include Category C and D deaths, which without mitigation would also be higher in the short-term.
However, this is a very limited comparison and many other factors have not been considered; it is difficult to know whether mitigating the pandemic may lead to impacts over a longer term and therefore greater impacts on the economy and the healthcare system.
For further information on the methodology to estimate the excess deaths in the unmitigated scenario in categories A and B, see annexes A and B.’

The precautionary principle goes hand-in-hand with the R2P protocol. Right to Protect. This says that the international community must react to “threats”. This R2p doctrine was used to justify the sacking of Libya and Syria. “Carbon” emissions also will fall under this framework. The idea that a country is threatening their neighbours with too much “carbon” or a biological hazard will demand international intervention.

The irony is that if the govt believed in the precautionary principle then they would have spent far more on the NHS so it was properly prepared for a pandemic, the chance of which is 100% at some point. Lockdown was probably not about precaution but naked panic and fear, and saving the govt rather than the NHS.

Doesn’t seem to have worked for either!

The NHS is somewhat wrecked, but unfortunately the govt is intact. Even the anti-Brexit types who didn’t trust Johnson over prorogation seem more than happy for him to lockdown the country and inflict draconian laws.

I’m struggling to imagine where they got that 1.5 million figure. Even Ferguson’s infamous prediction was only a third of that. Maybe it’s based on the average global CFR which I think is around 3.5% (still probably exaggerated and not the same as the IFR which is less than a tenth of that at most)

It feels like the precautionary principle ought to be the other way round now. There may be a small chance of a devastating second wave if all the science somehow turns out to be incorrect, or the virus suddenly mutates – but this is set against the certainty of all the social, physical mental and health, economic and cultural damage that’s being done and is only getting worse.

You dont need to struggle, the figures are in the Annexe G to the SAGE paper which I copied in its entirety above, it’s the total of Categories A and B.

For supposedly eminent scientists and qualified medics, they seem to have little idea how bodies and microbes actually work.
I think I could have done better just with what I learned for O-Level biology.

‘Evidence indicates markedly higher mortality risk from COVID-19 among Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic (BAME) groups, but deaths are not consistent across BAME groups.’

‘It is important to note that compared to the White British population per capita deaths are markedly greater in Indian, Other Black, Black Caribbean and Other Ethnic group’

‘…and they are markedly greater in Black Caribbean and Black Other groups compared to all other ethnicities (except ‘Other ethnic group’). For example, per capita, Black Caribbean deaths are over twice those of Bangladeshi and Pakistani populations.’

CEBM 05 May 2020

Why?

‘It is known that second and third generation ethnic immigrants may not understand the vulnerability of their infants to tuberculosis and this may result in withholding consent for BCG vaccination. Similarly, infants born of a mixed marriage may not be recognised as being eligible for selective neonatal BCG vaccination.’

‘Infants of Indian sub-continental origin (ISC) were significantly more likely to have been vaccinated than non-ISC infants (ISC 70% v non-ISC 29%).’

https://adc.bmj.com/content/89/1/48

Of course this is not proof but, if this site is about anything, it is about common sense:

‘The current evidence about BCG vaccination and prevention of acute respiratory infections is of high quality, as it is supported by results from 2 systematic reviews (one including meta-analysis) and 4 RCTs, which provide high level of evidence for prevention studies’

CEBM 23 April 2020

‘….we compared countries that mandated BCG vaccination until at least 2000 with countries that did not. To minimize any systematic effects of reporting biases, we analyzed the rate of the day-by-day increase in both confirmed cases (134 countries) and deaths (135 countries) in the first 30-day period of country-wise outbreaks. The 30-day window was adjusted to begin at the country-wise onset of the pandemic. Linear mixed models revealed a significant effect of mandated BCG policies on the growth rate of both cases and deaths after controlling for median age, gross domestic product per capita, population density, population size, net migration rate, and various cultural dimensions (e.g., individualism). Our analysis suggests that mandated BCG vaccination can be effective in the fight against COVID-19.’ 31 July 2020

https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/32/eabc1463

This was suggested some time ago but as usual with our media nothing was followed up. Scaremongering is what they do best!

They honestly cant cope with nuanced stories, so much easier to write something sensational and wrong.

I’s because they tend to work with press releases. Lazy journalism.

I have a question:

Looking at the average age of a ‘Covid’ death and range of co-morbidities, wouldn’t most of them have been in the shielding category? If so, how did they get Covid outside of nosocomial settings?

‘Official’ deaths in care homes seem to be around 15,000 and around 33,000 in hospitals:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/datasets/weeklyprovisionalfiguresondeathsregisteredinenglandandwales

I guess we will never know but I would love to know how many would have tested negative before attending hospital.

See if you can find this book:
https://www.amazon.com/Up-Against-Wall-Motherf-Memoir/dp/1583228497

They care homes vs hospital deaths numbers will likely also disguise a number of people who were in a care home but then transferred into hospital when they got very sick.

I thought once they got very sick they were DNR’d.

Is the answer not simply that we don’t actually know how viruses spread? Strange as it may sound, we have yet to gain a proper scientific understanding of how viruses spread. We have some notions, but not much more.

Which is why everything is so completely incoherent. Governments have set themselves the impossible task of protecting us against a virus without having any real clue how to do it or even whether it can be done simply with the right public policy.

Sadly we are the guinea pigs in this immoral and grotesque social experiment.

We are. From what I can see, nothing will stop the spread but can only slow it down to some extent. Masks, quarantine, social distancing, lockdowns etc. None of it makes the slightest bit of difference in the long run. It is going to happen, delay all you want but you won’t stop it so work on treatments, protect the most vulnerable as best as possible, be healthy and keep living.

A lot would have been shuttling between hospital and care home on a fairly regular basis. This is why I think it’s wrong for people to argue for ignoring how many of them tested positive for CV 19 at point of death. We need to know that it was widespread in the general population (their visitors, carers, nurses, doctors) for whom it wasn’t a big deal, to get a true picture of how that affects this frail population.

Keep it out of the hospitals, treat with HCQ early on first suspicion and it is less dangerous than seasonal flu.
https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=239747

None of it makes the slightest bit of difference in the long run… or in the short run.

Spain and Belgium have the strictest mask policies in Europe (must be worn indoors and outdoors) and their measured infection rates are as high as anyone else’s and have in fact increased since the mandates.

The implementation of lockdowns and masks don’t seem to correlate at all with a reduction in deaths or infections.

That’s because the lockdowns and masks haven’t been about a virus.

Singapore got its Nosocomial infection rate down to statistical zero in March.
https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=239747

Thank you very much for this link – EVERYONE should read it, his conclusions on nappy-wearing are inescapable.

Need to spread the word, keep reposting etc

Go out enjoy the summer and fuck the government. Line them fuckers up agains the wall and offer them choice, a firing squad or get off our fucking backs. I’ll decided how i live and where i go not you and also i’m not responsible if someone gets sick. Never have been in the past and i won’t be in the future. The government has overreached massively and i’m happy people feel this and are doing what they want. This madness must stop now. Time to fight back, no mask, no social distance, no name, no number, no tests and no fucking quarantine.

Agree with you, never before have we had a narrative which states that we are responsible for other people’s health so we must totally upend our own lives to stop passing on a disease. It’s this insidious focus on saving others that invalidates the perfectly legitimate argument that health is a matter of weighing up personal risk. We are not responsible for other people’s health outcomes to the extent that the government are making out with the lockdown.

Amazingly powerful statement. Couldn’t agree more.

Feeling more or less the same myself now (can’t even honestly bring myself to disagree with the firing squad bit). I don’t have any confidence in this government to get us out of this mess, or for the Opposition or most of the media to hold them to account. The only way is for individuals (and organisations) to stand up to it.

Well said. We are responsible for our own lives and not for everyone else’s, as for those who bang on about “protecting the NHS” well they exist to serve us not the other way around. If they can’t cope then reform is needed to make sure they can.

I would offer no choice Biker, firing squad.

And then they’ll get off our fucking backs.

I don’t hate these people i pity them. These fools think they know enough so they can lead us to the promised land. I’m no Moses but if you followed me you’d at least be on the road and living. I’m sick to death of them telling us one thing and millions of us ignoring them and doing what we want. Time for us who want to get at it to take control. You just need to ignore their rules best you can, tell everyone who asks your position on the matter and go about your day.

Pity them is right, until you see them bullying or even assaulting someone for disagreeing with them. Then the pity ends and the hatred begins.

They deserve hate and worse. They have murdered thousands by their cowardice and stupidity.

Why offer a choice? Well, hung or shot might be ok.

Well hung or shot?? Not sure that I like the sound of that! (insert smiley)

Couldn’t agree more. Look at the state of our country/the world. Most people normally dont give a shit about their own health and either live with and/or eventually die from preventable illness, preventable if they took moderate responsibility for their own health. But all of a sudden everyone has to stick their nose in and take charge of OTHER people’s health. I am responsible for my health and in part for those dependent on me at home. No one else. Leave me alone, sheep.

Thank you; your comments are keeping me sane.

Amen to all that and no fucking vaccine.

Obviously I agree with you but it isn’t the case that people have never before been held responsible if others get sick. I worry about this because I am genuinely concerned that if the UK continues on this path it’s only time before someone is charged with recklessly infecting someone with covid.
There were rumblings of it being threatened in MSM when they covered the recent story of Belly Mujinga (google it -her death is v sad but not a crime).
The most obvious parallel is hiv – according to wiki as of June 2006 seven people in England and Wales have been convicted for transmitting hiv recklessly (under existing assault law). I don’t know about any other diseases but I fear we may be on this path.

From the various reports from far and wide and from the comments on here, it appears to me that the lockdown and muzzle zealots – here in the UK and throughout the world – are becoming ever more hyperbolic, extremist and aggressive in their words and actions.

Meanwhile, the steady flow of facts and figures is all going the Sceptics’ way – like some massive tide flowing in among the rocks; unseen almost, but steady and relentless. And the top public comments in Conservative publications like the Spectator , Telegraph and Mail are overwhelmingly sceptical, exhibiting bitter and increasingly widespread frustration with what is going on.

The debate is becoming increasingly polarised and ugly, and yet the grounding of fact is crumbling away from underneath the zealots – which perhaps explains their increasingly illogical and erratic behaviour. Eventually, facts are always stubborn things – as is economic mathematics.

These observations suggest to me that the hysteria is simply going to burn itself out, as a ‘tipping point’ arrives.  Predicting the timing is difficult. But it is coming.

Off to the beach today! A quiet hidden-away place, so no risk of catching or spreading anything. What a fine citizen I am.

Agreed – the tone of the Telegraph / Mail coverage has shifted markedly in the last few days and comments are now overwhelming sceptical. Was at a Sainsbury’s yesterday – man struggling with his mask as strong had broken. Told him not to worry – he struggled on but came up to me at the end and said was fed up with this rubbish (second person that day) – thought government had made a massive error and now trying to cover up. Didn’t know about this site but was very happy to learn about it. I feel there is a growing momentum amongst people and it just needs a focal point / person around whom to rally.

Yes, with the overwhelming scepticism among those majority conservative sympathisers, how long can the current administration maintain its course? Can a Conservative PM afford to loose for long the grass roots of the party?

Alpine, our treasured psychiatrist, can you tell us if mass hysteria does tend to burn itself out?

Annie, it will only shift when there’s an acceptance that the losses outweigh the gains. But that also means having to bear the guilt and shame of the destruction wrecked. I don’t think we’re even close unfortunately

Guilt? Dominic Cummings? Shame? Boris Johnson??
Actually DC did admit mistakes during the Rose Garden interview, so guilt is a possibility in his case. The latter, not.

The little dark secret propping all this up is that too many people are benefiting from it. There are too many people out there who either get paid without actually working (e.g. teachers), are working less (e.g. doctors) or who have really taken to working from home and don’t want to revert (tonnes of people).

Yes, that’s a very important point, that is all too often forgotten.

A very, very important point.

I don’t think it’s being continued because the average person is enjoying it. Most are desperate to get their children back in school and go out for a meal in a pub. It’s being continued because the slow Loris and his chums made a huge mistake in not doing a Sweden, and are now busily trying to make it look like it was all to save us from Armageddon.

Yes, but people like Ferguson and Hancock et al. are enjoying it. And, until very recently of course, a lot of people on furlough have been happy about it. And the teaching unions have a stick to work with; and every little busybody who enjoys their moral superiority bossy other people around is happy for it to continue.

A hundred times this. This is obvious when you consider that people claim it’s too dangerous to go to the office but are going to restaurants for their subsidised lunch. It’s very hard to convince someone it’s safe to go back to work when they don’t like work.

I wonder what will happen (being optimistic here saying “when” not “if”) when the overall mood eventually changes and even the BBC, Guardian etc. have to acknowledge it? Are they going to admit they were wrong (and partly responsible themselves) or simply act as if their opinion was that way all along? I suspect the latter, journalists and papers have done this plenty of times in the past and got away with it.

There’s a rather depressingly pious (literally) article in the Times today talking about putting a value on human life in the context of Christian values, and basically taking the stance that, even though we know we’re doing more harm in the long term, anything is justifiable if it saves just one life in the short term. Maybe a valid stance (for an individual) but only if you apply it to all preventable deaths! The article writer is right that all the Covid deaths are individual people with relatives, friends etc. who will miss them – but elderly people were dying from disease and neglect in care homes before Covid, and not many people in the media spoke out for them.

I’d imagined that a large number of people would simply get bored with it all, like some really naff fad that seemed to a lot of people as a great idea at the time but quickly turned sour.

If I had to stick my neck out on timing, I’d guess that six months was a natural turnaround time – which would take us to the latter part of September.

At the start of this, back in March it seemed to me that, the actual disease effects aside, as a society we were writing our own chapter for a new edition of Mackay’s Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds . It was many years ago that I read this, but as I remember the collective delusions and hysteria often seemed to have a finite burn-out time. Seventeenth-century witch-hunt scares, which the current madness reminds me of, seemed in discrete communities to burn themselves out in a few months (although they might rumble on in he background for far longer).

I’m only guessing, as should say that I don’t have any professional background in this.

If anyone on here can recommend a good edition of Mackay’s Extraordinary Popular Delusions I’d be grateful – I want to get my own copy, but there are loads of editions on Abe Books, and it’s not clear what might be the best.

It is long out of copyright and there are plenty of free editions for download.

try Project Gutenberg
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/24518/24518-h/24518-h.htm

“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.” Memoirs of Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds, Charles Mackay, 1852

Yes, I’ve seen the free editions on Google Books etc.
I thought it might be good to have a nice hardback copy.

That quote always stayed with me since I read it many years ago. Very apposite now.

Make sure you lie on your front AND NO BACKSTROKE!

Got stung by a weever fish. Bit like a covid vaccination I’d guess.

Remedy is to stick foot in bucket of extremely hot water. Where BJ and chums should be.

Yes, so I’m told. Trouble is, I don’t generally take hot water to the beach! There were lifeguards around today and I had a chat with them. They offered the kettle but I didn’t bother. One of them told me he’s been got about 10 times.

Johnson and his friends are going to be in very hot water before long.

Classic pattern of behaviour for a crumbling case of cognitive dissonance.

They know they’re on the ropes!

Yes, their claims are getting ever more shrill and implausible (cf. 1.5 million deaths in today’s blog). That suggests to me the stasis may be shifting.

I hope you’re right, but the vast majority will only change their minds when told to do so by someone in a position of authority. Sad to say, but for the big issues such as this they do not and cannot form their own opinion.

Maybe it needs a much smaller number of opinion-formers, rather than an authority figure as such?

The Preston ‘lockdown’ is pretty pathetic. Like the Northern lockdown introduced hastily on 30th July, all the restrictions now are social ones – i.e. no visiting people inside their house – rather than economic ones, such as the closure of shops or pubs. I know Scotland has gone harder with its Aberdeen lockdown but we know Sturgeon likes to do things differently from England just for the sake of it and they’re about 2 months behind us anyway because of how much she’s slowed easing down.

I think that at least in England any future local ‘lockdowns’ will consist of just these totally unenforceable social restrictions that are very easy to ignore because the government knows now that it cannot afford to shut the economy down a second time, especially with furlough scheme beginning to wind down. Of course the unthinking sheep populace or those who still support lockdown will agree with the measures and see them as effective. I hope there is a robust silent majority emerging who are beginning to see through the bullshit. I suppose these social restrictions are a sign that the government know how harmful lockdown is economically (and socially/culturally as well) but still want to be seen as authoritative and powerful, controlling the situation, and obviously they still can’t admit they made a mistake locking down fully in March because that would be the end of their precious political careers!

I think that’s exactly right, poppy. It smacks, to me, of increasing desperation. A knowledge that the wheels are beginning to come off while fighting a rearguard action (mixed metaphors? Not me!) in the hope that no one will notice what’s happening.

The Tory COVID CLOWN CAR:

The wheels fall off, with a bang and a puff of smoke
The doors open and close on their own
The boot lid pops up and down
The bonnet blows open with a puff of smoke and a bang
The exhaust falls off
The steering wheel comes off
The brakes don’t work
The car’s interior fills up with foam
The crank handle falls off
The bumpers fall off
The windscreen wipers start wiping
The washer jets squirt
The horn goes off randomly

The clown with a mop of blond hair and a mask falls over a few times trying to get in and out the car and chases it around the arena as if under remote control doing hidden thumb pointy gestures and waving his arms about

Hilarious!

. . . at least Boris won’t need any make-up

Agree with you Poppy. They have lost the plot and control ages ago and all these measures smack of a desperate need to control.

I get the feeling as well that they know that its only a matter of time before the volcano erupts. The furlough scheme is winding down, measures to get people out and about spending have failed and even this latest measure to get people to visit our cultural treasures is doomed to failure. Hopefully more and more people are waking up.

Let’s look at it this way. The people running this horror show were so excited to take advantage of this opportunity that they didn’t have time to put in place the perfect group of people to carry out their plan to the fullest. This bumbling, fumbling government, unfortunately, is really not bright enough to really pull it off. Back to the drawing board. That could give us enough time to prepare for their next attack, so we must continue to resist this present BS tooth and nail and claw back as much freedom as we can now. A couple of hackers would also help a lot.

Exactly. I think the way to go now apart from raising greater awareness is continued resistance and civil disobedience on our pat.

The tipping point of ‘enough’ people waking up will no doubt be met with an ’emergency lockdown’, i.e. no travel or gatherings – with enforcement.

They can try but if more than enough people resist, it will be unenforceable. Look at antisocial distancing – hardly anyone cares now even the police who were ridiculed for enforcing it.

Hope so, Bart, but there’s just so many sheep, who would welcome it.

People who agree with measures are not just unthinking sheep. There are many out there who are benefiting from all this by getting paid and not working, working less for the same pay or working from home and loving it. They’ll believe whatever they need to believe if they can carry on in the same way.

I’m amazed (though not really surprised to be honest) that they feel they can justify, and get away with, another local lockdown. The dubious justification behind last week’s ones (see Carl Heneghan’s article on CEBM) was even mentioned in the mainstream media.

There are people who have been ‘sheilding’ all this time who really have no idea what is happening other than what they get from MSM. Now they are poking their heads out and finding people who have been carrying on as normal all these months. Act normal, make it clear that they are the ones who have been fooled.

Some brief additions before heading to the beach.

Covid is still raging in Wales …according to the data with 74 hospital admissions on August 5th as opposed to England with only 21 covid admissions that day . Garbage in ??

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/healthcare

The adulation of the Victorian Premier in Australia continues . The journalists from the only Melbourne broadsheet asked the glorious leader ” how do you manage to do all this ..we are so grateful to you ”

https://www.theage.com.au/national/coronavirus-updates-live-victoria-enters-lockdown-weekend-new-south-wales-and-queensland-borders-restricted-australia-s-death-toll-reaches-266-20200807-p55jrm.html

A patient was refused assessment at a neighbouring surgery because they refused to wear a mask because of anxiety . This is against PHE guidelines. I presume they have a case for disability discrimmination under the 1995 act ; anyone know ?

Very probably, yes – the act applies to GP surgeries every bit as much as it does to other settings. I would suggest the patient should seek legal advice, though. The link Toby provides on his page would be a good place to start, because a key will be finding a solicitor sympathetic to the position.

Ultimately, an initial solicitor’s letter will probably be enough to force the practice to back down.

It would be under the equality act 2010, and yes it is disability discrimination, patient should ask to see the Equality Impact Assessment and the Risk Assessment for their services.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/08/04/doctors-criticise-barmy-rules-forcing-treat-patients-refuse/ (paywall) but includes “In a bulletin to GPs, NHS England said patients “should not be refused entry to a premises or access to care if they are unable to or refuse to” wear a face mask”. Can’t find a link to that bulletin -do we have any GPs who can help?

Great edition of LS this morning. One of the best. But how to get it read by the bedwetters? A link with a simple title – ‘ read something you won’t agree with’ ?

What do people think?… Are there any amateur psychologists that can suggest a more effective alternative?

Honestly, I think we need to choose our platform. Rehearse the facts and have conversations face to face. Find a chink and exploit it – not aggressively, but persuasively. Don’t do it online in an open forum, because there will be too many people who won’t read what’s behind your argument and will just dismiss it out of hand. My recent experience is that most people are beginning to suspect they’ve been had. If you can talk to them one-on-one you’ll get further than if you do it somewhere (like Facebook) where you’ll be shouted down by idiots who will never admit they’ve been had.

It’s those types of contrary fuckers I’m aiming for. Was thinking a bit of reverse psychology but you are probably right. I’ve also found the odd lull to be effective as the constant butting of heads just builds resistance.

I’d ignore them. They’re hysterical and their opinions are a matter of faith, not knowledge. Work on people who are wavering and you’ll get further. Eventually even the total zealots will come around once nobody else is listening to them and he all of a sudden they’ll be telling you that they never believed the crap in the first place.

These bedwetters won’t ever listen whatever you say, they only work on emotion and not facts. No matter what you throw at them they will always come back with things like “but if it saves one life” or “but you’re could spread it and kill and vulnerable person”. They have been conditioned to think like this for many years by the MSM and TV programming such as watching soaps and dramas.

Wonder how many of them drink and drive? Or smoke? Or engage in high risk activities, such as ‘crossing the road’?

Now now, Sam, no digs at smokers please. We are near the very top of Common Purpose’s list to be sent to the gulags.

You should be aware by now that smoking is one of those activities that has a strongly protective effect against Covid ( Very inconvenient for the bansturbators & puritans)
https://heart.bmj.com/content/early/2020/07/31/heartjnl-2020-317393

It has many strongly protective effects. One of the biggest is against certain forms of arthritis.

Toby tells us that our Covid death statistics are to be modified so that they are counted only if death occurs within 28 days of being tested positive.
This is still nonsense surely as it is the cause of death that is important.

The next step needs to be a review of death certificates to remove all of the 3rd part (Peter Thompson will be able to help by being more specific about the section on the form) “other complications known to be present” entires from the totals.

I don’t see how we’ll ever be able to go any further than that. The death certificates stand as a matter of record and the bodies have been cremated. I suspect the numbers we end up with will always be overinflated.

Also, when complete garbage like “1.5M lives saved” is being trotted out, we need to remember that every life not lost to Covid has the potential to be another life “saved” by lockdown.

It is impossible to now know how many people died of rather than with Covid.Because of a deliberate act by the government to assign Covid to any patient who was suspected of having It despite a lack of positive test.
The symptoms are so wide ranging anyone could have be classed as having it.
Even the excess mortality figures are skewed because we don’t know how many deaths are due to the lockdown itself.
We will face a fight because when they are ready the government can point to the figures and say look how bad it would have been,without all our measures.

Will never happen as the figures would be near zero. I take it they’ve gone for 28 days as more than likely 95%-99% of the deaths will have occurred in this short time due to COVID-19 deaths only being registered from the beginning of March, so the figures will only drop by a few hundred, rather than basing them on what the person actually died of which would significantly reduce the amount of COVID-19 deaths.

I don’t know what experience you have of very elderly people, although we do know Peter Thompson has. Whether in a care home or not, most will have more than one thing wrong with them all the time, to do with deteriorating organs and/or processes, plus falling over and injuring themselves ( poor eyesight, deafness so don’t hear a cyclist coming up behind them and get in their path, postural hypotension, i.e. dizziness when they stand up due to blood not getting round fast enough any longer). They go in and out of hospital on a regular basis, getting patched up and out again – until the last time, when they might die under anaesthetic at 95 as a surgeon inserts a replacement hip joint (as happened to my close relative), or of a respiratory disease contracted either in their care home or in hospital, on top of their initial reason for admission. In the former case it’s doubtful they’d be tested for CV19, although I don’t know if it became routine in all hospital deaths after 23 March?
But otherwise, if with symptoms, I think it’s right to include CV 19 on the death cert, as otherwise we’d never know how prevalent it was, or how significant especially in hospitals and care homes. I don’t think it would be right to say they ‘really’ died of whatever they were admitted for, such as a persistent urinary infection causing bloody urine, when what carried them off finally was CV 19. Or pneumonia, or flu, or whatever, if that’s what it was. Put them on the certificate, don’t ignore them. We need to know something about the contagiousness and prevalence of these things from year to year.
We know 25.6% of CV19 deaths also had dementia; it’s important to know that, so in future we can try to be extra careful how we treat them. Or not; Peter Thompson also observed here that those patients allowed to die in their care or other home setting passed away peacefully, a merciful end to a long life in those cases.

Sylvie, I was talking to the OH (a nurse) about this. Cv19 should go down in the notes and supporting material if that’s possible not as a cause of death. So the actual numbers reflect reality – i.e. uncertainty

Simply if you don’t know you don’t attribute. You could still record CV19 information but it wouldn’t be a false attribution.

I think the person certifying it is duty bound to include it on the death cert though? As otherwise, how could it be part of public health reviews and decisions taken drawing on them, which are the foundation data for the ONS stats?

It’s a notifiable disease.

The trouble is that they aren’t performing autopsies (WHO guidance?) so they can’t be certain and with co-morbidities you can never really be sure which condition actually wielded the dagger. That’s why any measure is always an approximation – flu death statistics are compiled without a test too. Whether 28 days is a small enough window (arguably nobody who’s going to do from CV hangs on that long) is a reasonable question, but from our perspective anything which reduces the daily deaths to zero or near zero has to be a good thing.

Sorry, but if you’ve got an 85 year old who died in hospital with a 6 month old neck bone break which wasn’t healing, a newer urinary infection, dehydration and a positive CV 19 swab, you’re not going to perform an autopsy to find out if it was ‘ really’ CV 19 they died of. You’re just not.

I agree, but I read somewhere that the WHO actually issued guidance not to carry out autopsies where Covid was suspected. Obviously common-sense should tell you that some of these deaths aren’t Covid, but politics seems to be telling people that they have to consider them as such regardless.

I don’t have the reference to hand but think that was so for UK too. But I don’t think autopsies would have been ordered anyway, in the majority of those (very elderly, multiple co morbidities) cases, i. e. I don’t believe they would have normally taken place anyway. No point. There might have been a point for otherwise healthy young people (bus drivers, medical staff) where the diagnosis was uncertain.
I also disagree with your ‘anything that reduces the daily deaths to zero or near zero has to be a good thing.’ It isn’t. We need to know how widespread and contagious this is, how serious in what age cohorts, and so on. We need good data.

Ronan Maher wrote an excellent article for Hector Drummond’s website on the changes to UK death certification and its consequences..

Good morning Fellow Sceptics!

As we all know today is the day when mandatory muzzling in more indoor spaces including museums, art galleries and heritage sites begins.

We should vote with our wallet and feet and boycott these places. Crucially write to them and tell them why we’re boycotting.

If we must go and visit, use the feedback forms and surveys to let them know how we feel.

Hopefully this will wake the likes of the National Gallery, National Trust, British Museum, V&A, English Heritage, etc up and shame them for their lack of courage in standing up to the government who have done bugger all for the sector and is complicit in their destruction.

Absolutely – we have to vote with our feet. As far as possible, I’m avoiding places that require masks, e.g. instead of grabbing a sandwich from Pret or local supermarket for lunch, eat in at a local cafe instead.

Well said and also boycott those who demand you give your details for NHS T&T!

Agree

 vote with our wallet and feet and boycott these places

Had two emails yesterday from Heritage places I support. Replied to both saying that in view of the mask policy wouldn’t be visiting until it was repealed

Have just done the same with the British Museum – Mr Bart and I are members but have said that we won’t be visiting until “safety” measures and mandatory mask wearing has been abolished.

New song suggestion: ‘Our day will come’ by Ruby and the Romantics.

A change is gonna come, Sam Cooke.

A change is gonna come …
And when it does we’ll be ‘Twistin’ the Night Away’…

Tide is Turning by Roger Waters

Haha, careful now, that’s the motto of the IRA! Only in Irish it’s ‘tiocfaidh ar la” (chucky R La).

Am I the only one who heard ‘careful now’ in a Father Ted accent ?

Ruby & the Romantics beat them to it.

Sturgeon has been interviewed and asked why the joint statement by the UK Government and devolved nations on tacking Covid has not yet materialised. Her response is that they have been unable to agree the wording : “For reasons I don’t fully understand there seems to be, on the part of the UK government, an unwillingness to use the word elimination and I don’t really know why that is the case.”
So, confirmation that up her in SNP land we are now going for full elimination of this virus. What a joke.
Maybe, just maybe, we can take some hope from this statement that BoJo realises this is impossible.

If they aren’t ever going to go down the Herd Immunity route then the only option for “Full Elimination” will be to vaccinate everyone.

Not much chance of that happening any times soon, so speaks the man in the US who knows a bit about these things, and is personally, pretty invested (in a financial as well as scientific sense) in the bandwagon:

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-vaccine-may-only-be-50-effective-us-disease-expert-fauci-warns-12044927

If ir were eliminated there would be no need for a vaccine to protect from what has been eliminated.

And that would assume 100% efficacy of the vaccine, wouldn’t it?

And no need for regular repeat jabs!

The vaccine will be all about elimination, ask Bill Gates.

Is there a way to get sturgeon sectioned?

Eliminated.

Fully (and finally!) eliminated.

I’ve eliminated her. Well, people like her. Ok, what I mean is “I’ve shit ’em”.

Getting rid of swinney as many are calling for would really get her jitters going. She isolated as it is with only a tiny bunker of support in her circle of trust.

Weeping comment, increasingly hyperbolic statements. Skin greasy and blotchy with sweat in press conference. Would take Bruno Ganz or Anthony Hopkins to play her in the remake.

Anybody remember the Munsters?

a tiny bunker of support in her circle of trust.

Like Hitler.

How about a straightjacket?

This is because she is being advised by the 36 year old Professor Sridhar, who is neither a doctor nor a scientist (unless you count an MPhil and DPhil in social policy), and who just happens to be a friend of Chelsea Clinton. This is what we are up against, unfortunately.

Yes, and it was Sridhar’s dept at Edinburgh Uni which got the £28million bung from Bill Gates. And Stasi Sturgeon hates Trump so it does seem the political nature of Covid is to oust the Donald.

That ‘Trump hate’ is a feature on the landscape of being a good little snp follower. Trinkets in shops and homes virtue display the Democrat thinking about Trump. Trump lampoon masks and toilet brushs for sale in shop windows. This is how Scotland is, not a whisky glow sunset over miekle pap of loch flipping salmon with kilts on and bag peeps a’dronin’ some air of lament.

Got my self thinking! Are bag pipes now banned? Bags of swilling virus surely!

Those of us old enough will recall when the same irrational burning hatred mixed with contempt was directed at Reagan by the same kinds of people. I suppose the Bushes got the same treatment, but deserved it more. Trump just seems to have had the dial turned up to 11 by these people.

Not so many years ago, Scotland took its knickers off and rolled on its back for Trump when he proposed to build a giant golf resort in Aberdeenshire.
Tempora mutantur.

Nicola’s a solicitor.

How spectacularly STUPID!!!

There is no way that you can eliminate a virus – even if you vaccinate every individual once a month.

The virus is here to stay, we need to learn to live with it

Do we need to learn to live with it or do we need to remember how we live with viruses? I say we need to learn to recognise evil and propaganda, then we will be just dandy once more.

But look at the Dodo, we eradicated that!

Hmm. Where do you get anti-Dodo vaccine?

Is this a serious question? You know that a Dodo is a bird right?

It must be much harder to eliminate a bird. Birds can fly away, but the virus just hovers in the air and on surfaces and stuff.

The dodo was a flightless bird!

Also it had never met humans before and didn’t know to be shit scared of us.

They’ll say covids will be found clinging to the heather and a full scorched earth policy is the only way to go. Then it’ll be the seaweed on the beaches….

The older-by-the-day-looking-moo spun the spinning. Based on only the words you quote it is clear she is also saying she is the reason for the joint statement to not have been presented. Her way or nothing and that is ok by her. Nihilistic nationalism is splitting her own vote. A few more weeks and she may tantrum – her language is heading in that direction as she realised this is one almighty corner she has painted herself into.

Take off and nuke the whole site from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.

It may well be that elimination isn’t desirable. If we go down the path of elimination for something like this then we are settting a very low bar for elimination of future pathogens. And once we start wel have to keep channeling resources into human interventions forever where a more natural route may have sufficed.

When did Scotland eliminate the common cold?

Sticky Nurgeon

Did interviewer query ‘elimination’?

This could be interesting. Assuming Wee Krankie is telling the truth (OK, I know!!) this suggests that Johnson and co. may not yet be going along with this lunatic document from ‘Independent’ Sage:

‘Independent SAGE believes that the UK government must fundamentally change its
approach and we propose a new overarching strategic objective of achieving a Zero COVID UK, i.e. the elimination of the virus from the UK. We believe this should be informed by science and debated in public, and a proper coordinated strategy for its achievement developed with the public.

[and]

Even under the most optimistic estimates for when a vaccine will become available, it is
unlikely to provide “sterilising immunity” and in any case is very unlikely to be provided to
all individuals in the UK within the next year. ‘

Posted on here yesterday (sorry, forget who it was): https://www.independentsage.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200717-A-Better-Way-To-Go.pdf

After reading that, my opinion of “Independent SAGE” has gone even lower!
I hope more than anything else that Johnson and co. don’t attempt to follow the chimera of “zero COVID”. That would eclipse almost everything they’ve already done, which is saying something. It doesn’t seem totally beyond possibility that they might decide on this in an attempt to show themselves as “caring more about people’s health”

Unless you permanently close our borders (and maybe not even then) “Zero COVID” is surely unachievable even with a vaccine, in the same way as we’ve never eliminated common cold viruses. But a government attempting it will inflict many more months of pointless misery and economic ruin on its people before finding this out!

No sane person could entertain the notion of eradicating a coronavirus.

https://twitter.com/ChGefaell/status/1291882932651601921/photo/4
A very interesting graph what is happening in Spain. Second wave? Enormous increase in testing.37500 cases last 14 days.60% asymptomatc 37% mild 3% hospitalization but deaths very low for now and many cases in previously not hit regions but also new cases in previously hit regions. The interesting is the CFR current last month 0.26% and if we assume this is the same since the beginning of the pandemic, what do we get? The real peak in April was 300000 and not 8000.And the total cases 10,7 million cases and that is 23% of the Spanish population. Herdimmunity?? Daily case CFR adjusted does not indicate second wave for now.

BTW not very good news for masks.The highest mask bearing in Europe and several thousands symptomatic cases.

But… imagine how much worse it would be without the masks!

Dogs and cats living together

Thanks for this. It’s one to keep an eye on. There’s a possibility from the serology map that Catalonia and Valencia were not fully cooked through the first time around. But the Barcelona wastewater from Jan 2020 contradicts this and indicates they may even have had it first. I’m sitting on the fence.

1.5 million dead without lockdown now? Triple Fergoid’s overinflated number. How did they come up with that one??

The answer is in Toby’s original post, it’s Annexe G to the SAGE paper.

‘W e shall fight on the beaches…..’

Our country may be coming back to us…..They took their time!

Inproportion2 Straw Poll:

‘Based on this small informal poll, general opinions on Covid have dramatically shifted against the government.

The most popular response in both groups was D:

“The govt and their experts have got the whole Covid topic completely and utterly wrong with a disastrous blanket lockdown”

And…..we know exactly where all the lunatics are!:

‘ Respondents to the survey who were sourced by a request through twitter seem not to have changed their opinions at all.’

http://inproportion2.talkigy.com/straw_poll_5aug.html

If we start from a premise that hcq including combination is an effective treatment and that the powers that be have been waging an all out battle against its use costing hundreds of thousands of lives what could be the motivation? Vaccine money is not enough. It can only be to stop Trump’s reelection and the unveiling of criminality and the halt in the plot to deconstruct Western institutions and install a fascist empire. I should also say it has provided governments with the opportunity to extend their reach and power over every area of our lives. George Orwell would shudder to believe it.

Well it might be an effective treatment in some cases at some stage of their infection. It’s not a panacea. But since a quarter of UK deaths also had dementia, it might be more merciful to just give them palliative care.

Actually…

https://www.newsweek.com/key-defeating-covid-19-already-exists-we-need-start-using-it-opinion-1519535

Coronavirus: For every three COVID-19 deaths, lockdown may have caused another two

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-lockdown-may-have-indirectly-caused-16-000-excess-deaths-study-12044923

16,000 of the 38,500 excess deaths we’re non-COVID, it reports:

“However, the report concludes 41% of those deaths were the result of missed medical care rather than the virus itself.

Of the 16,000 deaths, the paper estimates 6,000 were as a result of a “significant reduction in A&E attendances and emergency admissions”.

Another 21,000 deaths expected by next March:

“The modelling suggests there could be a further 26,000 excess deaths by March 2021 as a result of ongoing restrictions to medical care.”

Sage have had this report for over a month and sat on it:

“ The document was presented to the government’s Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (SAGE) last month, but was only released on Friday.”

And that’s assuming that all the ‘Covid deaths’ were directly caused by Civid, which we know to be a lie.

Some excitable journalists assume ‘all the CV deaths were directly caused by CV’, Annie, I’m sure you know better. SAGE had a more nuanced paper in front of them.

The odds are that there have been other infections around that have caused terminal respiratory disease in the vulnerable. It’s what happens, and it will show as a spike of deaths amongst older vulnerable people who have had an extra year of life because there was little infection last year (i.e some raised mortality this year may be a result of good, not ill- fortune).

But the problem is that we will never know, because of the lack of consistent death registration. I would be very suspicious of any numbers attached to ‘Covid’ deaths.

More suspicious than those from flu or pneumonia ( whatever that implies, it’s a description of symptoms from a cluster of viral and bacterial infections)?

Covid figures will be inflated because presumably they tick the “had Covid” box for anyone who tested positive. But they might have had hardly any symptoms.

If you tested more people for other cold and flu viruses you would probably find a similar picture. Lots of mild and asymptomatic cases. Somebody should actually do this to find out because it would be interesting to confirm whether there’s anything special about Covid in this respect.

You wouldn’t say someone had flu or pneumonia unless they actually did have quite severe symptoms.

Maybe in the future now that PCR tests are so cheap we’ll just record all the viruses someone had when they died. Would be potentially useful data.

I’ve read this site daily for months and found it about the only place for regular common sense. But in the past week I joined the Daily Mail website to try adding a few comments. Anyway a few days later and with all my posts anti lockdown, highlighting the stupidity of Boris etc, comments with an uptick versus a down tick are about 12 to 1.
Over 300 up ticks and few down ticks even when I am slating the Mails own article and highlighting the craziness of the numbers.
Maybe just maybe there are a silent majority that also don’t believe the lies and want us to get back to normal ASAP?
It’s easy to say your pro lockdown when your getting paid for nothing or allowed to work from home, but the millions on the beaches would suggest that what suits is the order of the day. Pretend to be panicked when it suits your needs, then crack on with life when it suits you as well.
Shame the government isn’t bright enough or gutsy enough to see through all the bullsh•t …..from scientists and also from the public playing the game!!! Lightweight politicians so scared of social media that they cannot do what is best for the country.

Exactly. I doubt all those pro-lockdowners would be so rabid in their views if their means of earning a living had been forcibly withdrawn.

Great job JB!

I think it’s the realisation that the money is running out. Redundancy rumours for companies are probably starting or in some cases (Like Bart S’s place) actual meetings about it.

And to contrast that, the council workers, politicians, teachers etc all on full pay.

Because without them continuing to be paid to collect your bins, maintain the flood barriers, work out how to preserve adult and child social care with holes in budgets of billions, and so on, you’d have a breakdown of civil society. I don’t want to live in Beirut.

Except that they are not the ones “working from home”. The bureaucrats always try to protect their own jobs by hiding behind the people who are actually doing the work.

You need both. Someone has to keep track of the money, organise the work schedules, do the forward thinking and the back up admin. Why do you think the computer industry is such a phenomenal success, and there’s a terminal on every desk?

Well said. Many of these lockdownistas won’t be singing the praises of lockdown for long if the government has to raid their pensions to pay for all the free money they have been throwing away like confetti.

I had a meeting with Tory Chairman on Thursday evening. I must preface this by saying I like him, respect him, and he is a good person. However, he was just about to jet off to his house in France, so I alarmed him by telling him about potential quarantine, as he could not break it due to his position and profile, and it would damage his business. Landed blow 1.

Secondly, we were just chatting about all this, and he’s still clinging to ‘it’s just politics’ and in the end I just said, ‘we’re beyond that now, this is about what is morally right, there is no way Boris can ‘spin’ his way out of this any more, the damage its doing is just immense. It needs to stop. Lawyers are galvanising, this is the biggest infringement of civil liberties ever seen, it’s not good’. Landed blow 2.

I’ve also written to the chairman of the 1922 Committee (on someone’s recommendation here, thank you) imploring him to do something to get these nutters’ hands off the tiller. I politely laid it out in its gruesome glory. This is killing and ruining people, it’s wrecking the economy, my rights are inalienable, and the law belongs to the people not the government etc etc. I suggest everyone does the same. I’m changing tack, we need to pressure sceptical Tories and back benchers, I think the pressure needs to come from inside the party.

Well done you. Keep pushing.

Agree. Husband cancelled his membership, and wrote to CCHQ, local association and MP (he is a minister who ‘inherited’ the seat, and really a LibDem, in our view). No response.

My local Tory Mp is next to useless I’m afraid. I have written to her numerous times sending links for evidence against lockdowns and on the last occasions even citing my inability to get an hospital referral appointment even though there have been no covid deaths in my local hospital for over 2 months. All she could say was that the HandCOCK ordered reopening of the NHS (NCS more like) backin April and that things are opening up (though obviously not in my case) and to see if my GP could suggest an alternative centre!! I even accused her and her Government of only caring about Covid deaths. Her response? To assure me that this wasn’t the case!! Laughable doesn’t even begin to describe it.

My local MP is useless too. You can write to Sir Graham even if you are not one of his constituents

They need to feel PRESSURE, and the tide turning away from them, they think this is popular. It might be, but those people don’t write to them! So sorry about the GP, my 85 old dad is having the same issue. It’s a scandal.

My GP has been great actually, I’ve had several phone consultations and even a face to face one (all next day), when I didn’t wear a face mask and when questioned by the receptionist I just said the Dr asked me in for a quick throat swab test (non covid!) anyway and that was that. I even had a chest x-ray at a local centre which was – wait for it – EMPTY.

My MP is useless too – doesn’t even reply to messages. And he’s the chief whip…

I wrote to Sir Graham Brady too Bec and got a very quick and quite encouraging reply. I have put both letters in the forum under ‘Politics …’ for the record. I would recommend that others do the same too.

Great, he’s not replied to me, but I’ve seen from the press that he’s being more vocal and asking difficult questions so I’m hoping he’s getting lots of correspondence. There must be a grown up somewhere to inject some realism into this madness.

Sir Brady politely replied to me too. He`s not even my mp (no replies from him).

Thanks!

Wrote to my MP as the leading light in the Red Wall MPs and reminded him what the 1922 Committee is capable of. Doubt if he’ll reply but you have to keep trying

Apologies if this has already been posted – I had a day off the forums yesterday as I was mentally exhausted..

I just found this, which may explain why the government are still pursuing lockdown strategies: https://greatgameindia.com/belarus-world-bank-coronavirus-conditions/

Basically it is a condition of them getting money/loans etc from the World Bank. If they do not do as they are told (ie impose ever stricter controls on the population) then they get no money – which obviously they need in order to have any chance of rescuing the UK’s financial situation..

There are lots of interesting links from this one, as an aside..

I said that was happening ages ago. Held to ransom by the world bank unless we comply with the lockdown.

Great stuff, Bec. Probably my biggest two disappointments in this whole nonsense were the failures of two groups to apply any effective pushback to this disastrous panic – “Conservative” backbenchers and grassroots members, and big business and investors.

Most of the other disappointments – Johnson’s and the “Conservative” hierarchy’s performance, failures by courts, journalists, Opposition, big tech, were all groups I had little real hope for, once the Johnson government had proved the suspicions about their mettle to have been correct.

I’ve had a sympathetic response from Sir Graham Brady too. altsale@parliament.uk

Quick update from the High St: Ha ha ha, funny how impending financial hardship has concentrated the mind of the owner of our local soft furnishing shop: traffic lights gone, queueing system: abandoned, limited nos of customers inside instruction: abandoned. Is this the start ….?

Hope my fellow LS are bearing up. I’m having a crap time with my ‘lovely’ internet provider who is adding an extra layer of hell to my life. Manage to read the occasional comment at work but that’s it as no service at home until mid-August. Like having an invite to a great party but not being able to attend!

Today’s t-shirt: ‘Old Normal for Me’

Right, gotta get back on the front-line of coffee and scone production and running the gauntlet of people whose day is ruined, not by the response to the COVID terror, but because they can’t have exactly what they want!

Dealing with the public really makes one live the human race, doesn’t it?
As fir the zombie race…

Update as the customers haven’t materialised yet. Another maniacal laughing session from me: apparently those little-Hitler hairdressers, who insist that their poor mug customers sit outside before their disease-ridden bodies are permitted access to the hallowed portals of Mr Teazy Weazy Rip-off Hairdressers, now have to stump up £100 to the local council for use of the pavements as a waiting area! There is a god …!

On the internet issue. I have had several largish isdues with my providers (2). Usually bomb proof. But not now. I mention since my mind wonders if these difficulties of service are not an atempt to counter free speech.

Could be just bad luck. Worth a mention to see if all other LSs are enjoying ISP fault free.

Thanks Basics. No, it’s because I wanted to switch providers. Original provider not allowing access (despite being given 5 weeks’ notice) to new provider (should have gone live on 4th July) and then trying to stiff me for another month’s bill and because I have refused to pay, they have cut me off. Thanks for the info’ anyway … kh

https://twitter.com/boriquagato/status/1291777239282057218/photo/1

Not very good news for mask fanatics.Hawaii. Mask mandate and cases.

Well after a lovely week of normal living in Norway a sharp snap back to gloom as we’re getting ready to leave just now. Conversation turns to covid with the taxi driver as they’ve had this cruise ship with some cases, an English woman who lives in France in our group joined in too. ‘who in their right mind would go on a cruise atm anyway?’ she said, to which I replied well I would – what exactly are you so scared of?

Norwegian taxi driver is just casually dismissing the entire cruise industry for years, ‘my daughter has a heart disease and this is much more dangerous than flu, that’s a fact!’ she asserted after I had pointed out its ridiculous to continue like this when most people unaffected and death ages etc. At this point its hopefully as once people emotional there’s no reasoning, what was more disturbing was the 33yr old English woman, perfectly healthy ‘I don’t know what to believe now, I’ve heard so many different things’, tried to point out it’d not a religion with beliefs there are just cold hard facts, most of us have no risk and its overblown… ‘well I’ve read some young people have died too’

I wanted to scream. Both of them just accept this is ‘going to go on for years’ and even ‘bill Gates says it’ll be 2022 before we have a vaccine so at least until then’ – idiots are prepared to sacrifice life for years til a vaccine for a this flu comes along. It’s mental, but that is what we’re up against… Honestly feels hopeless

It seems fitting to make mention of a recent TV interview posted on here in which Gates casually mentioned tgat he is having regular calls with Fauci to discuss plan and strategy. Who is gates to be doing such a thing?

Here’s the link someone else posted https://youtu.be/V8i4hwbsj_I
I think it gives an excellent recap on the sickness and evil of gates. Even excluding the commentary the gates interview on US msm is included for own judgement. The interviewer appears to look uncomfortable with the concepts gates in describing.

He is a sicko. Why the folk in the Norwegian taxi cannot see that is a curosity that psychologist will spend years explaining. Mass psychosis.

The thing is none of these people, who are this far gone (and I think this is still a majority of people) will believe the truth unless it’s uttered by their chosen hero, be it Boris, or vallance, Cummings, starmer or sturgeon – it has to come from a single person that they decide they believe above any facts or figures we might present.

21.30 onwards – Boris and Whitty
Interesting analysis of the Berlin protests following that

That is a great video!
And as you say – who is Gates to be discussing plan and strategy – the man has ZERO medical qualifications.! Makes me so mad!

This “well, I’ve read some young people have died too” reply is one of the most stupid things I’ve ever heard (and there’s a lot of stupidity going around at the moment”. So many people have absolutely no understanding of statistics and probability. If your only criteria for something being a risk is that it has a non-zero probability of happening, you would never leave your house, as there is a non-zero probability of you being run over, knifed to death by a psycho or killed by a meteorite falling on your head.

But if you stay in your house, the roof could fall in, the gas might leak, the chip pan might catch fire, the computer might blow up in your face, you could be strangled by your bra or your trousers or fatally injured by a tea cosy, or the monster that lives under the bed might come out and get you.
Quandary.

Good Morning everyone – I am out for the day! However for those who would like to direct the nation and have a bit of time on there hands, what do you think the UK policy should be at the moment? I will check in this evening to see how the policy is looking!
I suspect within the Lockdown Sceptic group there will be differences of opinion!

My first policy change would be to remove the mandatory mask wearing rule inside shops etc – I would still have some restrictions concerning social distancing.

Get rid of the bastard masks NOW!.

All anti-social distancing achieves is slowing down herd immunity. Scrap all of it and let people make their own choices and decide what level of risk they are comfortable with.

Warn the over-65’s who are in frail health that there’s a nasty virus going round and they should take care.
Tells the over-65’s in good health, those of working age and children that there’s very little to fear from this virus, and they should carry on as normal, but taking normal health precautions if they have cold or flu symptoms.
…er, that’s it (Ed).

Scrap all rules.
All of them.
Tomorrow.

Simples. Stop paying the media to fearmonger. Start fining them every time they do.

All future policy centred around shielding care homes and setting up proper old fashioned ‘flu wards’ in hospitals. Winter season preparation.

Oh and stop plugging vaccines for seasonal diseases. Start a programme of education advertising for good health as winter comes re: vitamin D, zinc, vitamin c, time outdoors, a hug is health!

Start studying and using HCQ and zinc (plus any other methods with validity) on covid patients. Restrict use of ventilators and use CPAP machines instead.

And for God’s sake- OPEN THE SCHOOLS!!

Open the schools now, forget about the summer holidays.

No thanks. I’m away with my kids at the moment. Would be a pain in the bum to have to head home to get them back to school. 17th August would be fine.

Start a programme of education advertising for good health as winter comes re: vitamin D, zinc, vitamin c, time outdoors, a hug is health!

If we’ve really just gone through the last 6 months to protect the NHS, then why hasn’t there been a publicity campaign to spread this message?

Exactly.

Replace SAGE with actual scientists. Get Heneghan, Lee, Gupta etc onboard to promote real normality with sensible guidelines for the vulnerable.
Cancel all WHO funding too.

Wholeheartedly agree. I’m not sure how the assorted rag-bag of poor scientists was chosen – except, perhaps, on the basis of their brown noses.

They have been dangerously wrong at every point.

Er at least one of them was “chosen” (ie offered up) because he was so poor in his prior role. “Promoted” away from his opportunity to cause any moe damage…or so it was hoped…

Reform the NHS as well. Stop the worship of the Church of the NHS and get rid of their privileges in terms of discounts, freebies, etc

Have a draw for politicians. The loser gets caned publically. And I’m talking Indonesia style caning here

Interesting question.

Basically – not a lot other than normal behaviour where there is no significant infection around (as now).

The key – THINK : ‘BACK END OF A NORMAL, GONE ‘FLU EPIDEMIC’

• Certainly – bin those stupid face-nappies.
• Leave it to vulnerable individuals and carers to operate non-hysterical safeguarding procedures.
• If you have symptoms – do what you should do, and keep away from other people
• Hand hygiene does no harm and probably is a good idea generally
• Open all venues and have no restrictions. Let natural immunity (already at a high level) continue to do its work.
• Keep shaking hands and hugging.
• Open all schools to function normally with no measures involving child abuse in place.
• Stop wetting your knickers
• Remember what this government has done, and act appropriately

Oh – I forgot some ‘don’ts’ :

• Don’t sign up to any quick and dirty vaccination programmes. They are unnecessary – and potentially dangerous – scams.
• Stay well away from contact tracing apps. – (another kerrrching!)
• Don’t feed the beast of unnecessary testing – it’s pointless. (kerrrching! again)

Travel is not a luxury. It is a right.

A mere human right. We din’t have those any more.

Deeper. It is a universal right.

A swift or swallow doesn’t have more rights than me.

A grieving father whose wife died in childbirth conspires with his overzealous, servile household staff to turn his only son into a crippled invalid and keep him sheltered and isolated in his room forever, in order to preserve the memory of his dead mother. This is the plot of Frances Hodgson Burnett’s beloved children’s book, The Secret Garden . Everyone must mask up before being permitted in the presence of the closely-guarded child-prisoner.

We are the child, and our beneficent father, the all-loving state, looks out for us by reducing us to obedient cripples during the corona pandemic.

Agnieszka Holland’s 1993 movie-adaptation of the book contains some images of mask-madness that are striking and even chilling in the light of current events. The head housekeeper is played by the great Maggie Smith. Here is just one of the many chilling images from the film, which amounts to and indictment of shocking child abuse.

(PS: Check out Agnieszka Holland’s latest film, Mr. Jones, about the New York Times cover-up of the 1932 Soviet famine-genocide in the Ukraine, the Holodomor .)

(PPS, I tried to post a screen-grab of the best masked-cattle image from the film, but the comments section won’t let me.)

Omg, yes!
That’s one of my favourite books, don’t know why I haven’t made the comparison yet!

Here is the screen-grab of the image I was trying to post. The film is full of such unforgettable images.

https://medium.com/@stephenmarkhoffman/the-secret-garden-6ed487d66f2a

Wowza!!! That’s a good point.

The book was one of my favourites and the 1993 film was one of my inspirations regarding the possibility of studying in the UK. Your post reminded me of the sinister overtones of the film and the eerie parallels now.

Latest news from Ireland, as this week’s scripted local lockdown lunacy is implemented by the unelected government:

https://www.thejournal.ie/new-covid-19-restrictions-for-kildare-laois-and-offaly-5170255-Aug2020/

Three counties were placed in lockdown after workers tested positive in a number of meat processing factories.

TAOISEACH MICHEÁL MARTIN has said a “nuanced and more sustainable” approach to re-opening the country is needed. “We all need to understand that this virus is still a deep, urgent threat,” Martin said. “It is merciless and unrelenting. It won’t be a case of moving forwards step by step.”

So , unravelling that bit of verbal genius, I assume that will be one step forwards and two steps back?

There has been some backlash – Headline on thejournal.ie today:

‘High degree of anger’: Concerns over compliance as ‘arbitrary’ county boundaries used to impose local lockdownLocal TDs have been reacting to the latest restrictions imposed on Laois. Offaly and Kildare.
Oh, and just for good measure the lunatics have also decided to enforce muzzle wearing for secondary school pupils and staff. It was stated in the media that “Unions have largely welcomed the move.” – of course they have.

Have a nice weekend.

Would a slogan on a mask such as ‘This is STUPID’ see pupils or teachers suspended I wonder.

Are those schools mandating a change of mask for each 40 minute session. Bio hazard bins in place. Risk assessed the breathing in of fibers from masks. Hand washing to be regular within class rooms?

By god I hope the true natural spirit of fight comes out in those oppressed children. They will instinctively find this is wrong.

If worn during PE (if they still do PE), a mask could kill them. Unlikely, but has happened in China.

The International Edinburgh Festival is online this year. Weedy and limp. The performances recored or live. The ballet or modern dance performers are masked. As is a solo Cellists – can cellos die of covid? Can I die from appaling virtue signalling? Back on point, those dancers wearing a mask – made me wonder what is in store for the Tour De France peloton.

I wonder what Micheal’s nickname will be – Brian Cowen’s was BIFFO (Big Ignorant Fucker From Offaly)

I haven’t been in Ireland long enough to have a great insight but, from what I’ve seen so far, the word moron has to be in there somewhere?

Here is just one of many screen-grabs of masks fro the film: https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=3350010025019880&set=a.434558263231752

Is it possible that we have pretty much all had the c19 cough and now the positive tests (excluding false ones) are just the virus coning around for another go but getting kicked to touch by our educated immune system?

Yes this is certainly possible and I’ve wondered about this. Based on observations of antibody levels it looks like you might in theory be able to get a mild reinfection after only two or three months especially if the first infection was mild.

But there has not been a single documented case of a detectable reinfection and certainly what we’re seeing in the UK with testing is entirely consistent with everyone still having complete sterilising immunity from the first time around. So I think this is more likely.

You would expect a constant low level of completely new infections as the population is not static. The epidemic itself also has a long slow tail so we may not be quite at the final equilibrium level yet.

What would be the process for detecting and documenting a re infection, guy153? What would you see in the swabs/blood?

If someone tested PCR positive, then got better and tested negative, and then sometime later (3 or 4 months, a year, etc.) was PCR positive again, that would be evidence of some kind of reinfection. Obviously you’d be looking for a decent sample of people this happened to to rule out false positives, anomalies etc.

If you did test positive most people wouldn’t go back for another test in 3 months. But many would– as someone was saying if you want to go to Croatia you need a negative test less than three days old.

Maybe this just hasn’t happened yet, but out of 20 million tests or so done world-wide, and with more and more people requiring tests for things, you might have expected it to if sterilising immunity only lasted a couple of months. I’m sure if there’s even a hint of it happening the media will pick up on it

We no doubt will see this happening eventually, but maybe it takes a year or so.

Swedenborg posted a link the other day about N antibodies vs Spike antibodies. The Spanish antibody tests were looking for the N ones, which have a shorter half-life (probably because there are more of them to start with– but then the test threshold is higher). But the spike antibodies (especially the RBD ones but other bits of spike work too) are the ones that actually neutralise the virus, and they had a much longer half-life. So you could be negative for N but have plenty of S antibodies still, and not get reinfected. “N” and “Spike” refer to the bits of the virus the antibodies are sticking to.

Here’s the link: https://doi.org/10.1101/2020.07.16.20155663 , see Figure 2 especially.

It’s interesting actually that you get more N earlier and and a bit less of the (more effective) S later. The way it works is the first antibodies your body finds that match (randomly, but weighted by similarity to previous infections) start getting produced, and you start fighting the infection with them as soon as you can. But over the next few days you continue to develop more specific and effective antibodies in a process called “affinity maturation”. One of the reasons you end up with fewer of them is they are more effective– once you’ve cleared the infection you stop producing them. But the mechanism that keeps IgG antibodies sticking around gets saturated above a certain level– so those later, more effective, antibodies are the ones that have a longer half-life. They’re like that bottle of whisky in your drinks cupboard that has been there for ages because you only use a small amount at a time (well so one hopes) and it doesn’t take up much space. It’s a beautifully “designed” system.

Thank you for these great answers.

If someone is asymptomatic because of previous exposure to covid 19 or similar corona-virus/viruses, is it reasonable to suspect that they give off a far lower viral load than someone who becomes quite ill from the virus – and are therefore likely not particularly infectious?

Yes I think that’s certainly reasonable. But there’s a tradeoff because if you’re quite ill you’re more likely to stay at home and therefore infect fewer people that way.

So ill people stay at home until better and well people chuck your masks in the bin and crack on with life – could someone tell Boris!

Great, many thanks!

Also the original idea was “if lots get it can we handle it?” The answer to that has been Yes from March. You could argue that it was always that.

We’re not in Kansas anymore

I was on Brighton beach yesterday – lovely day out and the local business were very happy to see us. I did notice loads of photographers out with their zoom lenses, presumably trying to snap a contrived picture of the “over-crowded covidiots”. For comparison, here’s what it really looked like:

Yes people naturally distance themselves anyway. You wouldn’t just plonk your towel down right next to someone you’ve never seen before.

Good point.

You haven’t been to Bournemouth when it’s heaving. You literally plonk your towel down where you can

I’ve seen the togs out with their lens at the beach here. T &T keeps my camera phone at home these days, but if some one can catch the long shots being taken that woukd be a good image to get. We all know they are manipulating these images. Also the lack of spike after the beach, protests is now a realisation most people have.

The press can prevent 1.3 million people marchibg being widely know about. They can easily suggest an out cry about people at a beach. But really, is there an out cry?

Is the haze of viral load above the beach goers being destroyed by the strong UV light from the sun?

Well done. I live by the beach ( East Coast ) and have seen the crowds come and go. Yesterday was really busy, but even so, most people are in their groups.

Notice none of the press are using drone images

That’s how its has always been – Covid 19 or no Covid 19. The media like to exaggerate and use dodgy camera techniques to shock and mislead people.

Northern Folks. There are quite a few newspaper articles about what you can and can’t do uunder local lockdown. I thought it would be helpful to collate and summarise these in a handy FAQ format, so here it is:

Q: What can I do during local lockdown?
A: Do anything you want to do!

Comes with free theme tune too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44JomxG4it8

Ah I thought your link would be to ‘Go where you wanna go” by The Mamas and Papas, mid 60s I think.

Manchester council is threatening to shut pubs and bars that don’t comply. Perhaps bring it on and the protests with soon get going here. Preston council think calling young folks granny killers is cute? FFS. More laws to be broken for me today. Such fun being a criminal

If some people manage to avoid the virus, and therefore their immune systems will not have had the latest virus update, are these people potentially more vulnerable to any new nastier coronavirus that rocks up in the future?

Not necessarily. There is no such thing as an immune system in the sense it is a single amorphous blob. It has several layers, with the top layer being the primitive innate system and the deepest level is the adaptive system.

There’s a good chance of that yes.

SARS2 came from bats and apparently found it rather easy to infect humans right off the hop. There’s form too: the closely related SARS1 came from bats 17 years ago. Most if not all of the other coronaviruses that infect humans also came from bats.

Those bats and their viruses are still around. The bats are not wearing masks or using wing sanitizer. They don’t care about the 2m rule. They’re aren’t lining up in carparks to swab each other or locking each other down. Their viruses are mutating away.

The next virus to jump to humans from animals is therefore quite likely I would say to be a close relative to SARS2, and usually, the closer the better from the point of view of cross-immunity.

There is no guarantee of course but this is how things have evolved and our immune system is adapted to keeping up with whatever’s happening in the virosphere.

There have been some good slogans for T-shirts etc but I remember a few weeks ago someone posting an image of the Ascent of Man from ape to human but with a sheep added. I’ve been trying to find it but have failed so far.

Can anyone else recall this?

https://teespring.com/stores/official-carl-vernon

Thanks, that’s it! This will wind up some sheeple I have the misfortune of knowing.

I love these!

Saw one at the first London demo:- ‘I tested positive for common bloody sense’.

Here is a screengrab from movie I posted about 15 minutes ago:

https://medium.com/@stephenmarkhoffman/the-secret-garden-6ed487d66f2a

Do you mean this one:

https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/08/COVID-19-total-announced-deaths-6-August-2020-weekly-file.xlsx.xlsx

Visited a hairdresser yesterday for a much needed cut – horrendous experience. Temperature taken on arrival, my handbag had to be placed inside a disposable bag, then I was asked to sanitize my hands, then put on a disposable robe, face mask and gloves. As I was already beginning to overheat I refused the gloves stating there was a danger I may faint and that would be more problematical for them to deal with. The whole experience is one I won’t be repeating and this hairdressers will have no further business from me. There was only one other customer in the spacious salon at the time. Completely and utterly ridiculous and far from being a relaxing experience, it simply made me angry. Had I not been in such dire need, I would have walked away at the first sign of the temperature checker. Grrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Especially since raised temperature has a poor specificity, any number of conditions can cause raised temperature, and not necessarily infection. I would be more concerned if they had a client who had a low temperature.

Absolutely. We are living in Bonkers Land.

Yes, pity the poor woman who experiences a ‘hot flush’ just at the wrong time..

IME you need to find a mobile hairdresser. They are technically not obliged to follow all this shit as they are in your premises (I think). Mine has a visor thing she never wears (sceptical – good woman – and she has an auto-immune disease!) but carries for paranoid customers’ sake. Doesn’t make her customers do anything.

Grow dreadlocks

Sounds like the rubbish here. Look on the bright side, perhaps your council will slap them with a licence fee for having outdoor seating like ours is: re. my post below … I bet you paid through the nose aswell for this awful service.

I’ve said it before but next time someone tries to take your temperature ask to see a calibration certificate for the thermometer.
I was working in Singapore when this kicked off and they used a non-contact thermometer to check people coming into the building – typical result for me should’ve led to me being rushed to hospital for treatment of hypothermia!

No temperature taken, no access to apple store here. The blacked masked door security goons told me this as they went about killing the apple brand.

“ killing the apple brand”

… well, that could be the start of a proper recovery.

too many fanbois.

a lot are snowflakes too

so only too happy to mask up and be ritually shot buy a big dude with a mask on (blm anyone?) to receive the apple

there’s occult symbology going on with covid I’m sure

I’m not that good at spotting it though

Could a covid facts info sheet be useful after such experiences. Slipped under a door or posted without reply address.

You are right to boycott imo.

Front page of the DT today, covid safe grouse shooting to commence on the 12th complete with social distancing and face masks – picture of group of country gent types with what appear to be tweed masks (matching their outfits)!

Two observations – tweed is surely one of the last fabrics you would chose for a face mask – highly ineffective and itchy. This is one for the cameras, no way they’re staying on once the shooters are out on the moor.

When will the madness end? No end in sight, I’m afraid.

Mental. Isn’t tweed pretty water-proof (and air proof)

I reckon they would have a hypoxic or hypercapina attack before managing to bag any grouse.

Bonkers.

Hopefully that will cause them to bag each other!

It’s a put-up job by the grouse.

Those people are so thick-skinned they won’t notice the tweed muzzles!

Yes, well I hope these shooters die of asphyxiation and the birds escape

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2020/08/bretigne-shaffer/the-pharmaceutical-narrative-is-failing/

The real reason for the media and establishment fatwa against HCQ, of course.

The Germans have sent the jury out for deliberation on their approach. One juror has returned their verdict (I believe this one is peer reviewed):

A phenomenological approach to assessing the effectiveness of COVID-19 related nonpharmaceutical interventions in Germany
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0925753520303210

6. Conclusions This study finds clear evidence of a decline of SARS-CoV-2 infections in Germany at the beginning of March 2020, which can be attributed to relatively small nonpharmaceutical interventions (cancellation of mass events) and voluntary behavioural changes. A trend change of infections from exponential growth to decay was not induced by the “lockdown” measures but occurred earlier. Additional impacts of later NPIs cannot be clearly detected

Of course, the truth about Lock-Ups is now firmly established – except in the minds of the venal and the stupid (two groups currently in lock-step).

However, this phrase needs correcting : “ A trend change of infections from exponential growth to decay” – the growth of infection however never was, and never is, ‘exponential’.It doesn’t happen – it’s an illusion gained from looking at a small part of an overall curve when an infection is in a stage of growth. Any decent epidemiologist should know that – only bumbling modelers don’t (if the cap fits ….).

Excellent point thanks, embedding the scary ‘e’ word has been a great propaganda success.

This is not a conspiracy theory, simply an observation.

China has demonstrated so far to have a level of social control and autarchy that permits it to control and suppress a new biological threat, like a virus, without much economic or social disruption.

Western liberal democracies (or what is left of them) have shown they definitely don’t.

That’s an uncomfortable thought when considering the growing geo-political tension between China and “the west”.

That’s a more complicated question than it might appear, however.

Did China actually “ control and suppress a new biological threat, like a virus, without much economic or social disruption”? I’m not sure that’s correct, on several counts.

Then there’s the question of whether a liberal democracy (insofar as we are still either of those things, and for whatever they are worth in practice) could “control and suppress” such a threat.

Consider this; if this disease really had been as killy as ebola, how would our response have been different? Yes, our government and media reacted hysterically, but the reality is that people from the first saw through it to some extent, because the info was there from the start to refute such ideas.

Personally, I think the effectiveness of the response would have been much greater had the threat been real. Clearly a deadly new disease on that scale is the nightmare scenario, but I see no convincing reason to suppose that the Chinese response would necessarily have been more effective at limiting the damage.

The thing is that this is a pandemic of the mind, not the body, and there’s some very murky stuff going on that drives it at different levels and originates from a number of interest groups

Agreed. I don’t tend to see the hand of Chine behind that, though. Seems pretty self-inflicted to me.

I think you are missing the speed and efficiency with which Chinese authorities are able to (a) detect and (b) move to contain a new biological threat. This is real and makes them much more capable than us in dealing with these threats.

Their ability to do so rests on a level of control of its population and relevant agencies and now also of its borders that leaders in western countries could only dream about (for now) and which those of us on here fear are coming.

The broader point though is that China is doing what Chinese do very well which is to manoeuvre its way into a position of leverage. They’ve quietly occupied the South China Sea with military bases. In just over a decade, they’ve implemented the most extensive and profound internal surveillance system in the world. They are rapidly rebalancing their economy away from trade towards internal production and consumption. And they have successfully tried and tested their response to a biological attack.

Meanwhile here in the west we are in the middle of an existential crisis. We are unclear of who we are and what we stand for. Our governments are adopting the actions of totalitarian regimes and we are all turning our backs on the principles of freedom and individuality which have served us so well.

In short, the Chinese (government) know what they are about and have a plan and we are in an existential crisis.

The Chinese still had an uncontrolled epidemic of this not very dangerous disease, that turned over at its peak in much the same way ours did, and there’s a suspicion that where they supposedly didn’t it was just because they didn’t bother testing and put deaths down to general respiratory illnesses. Plus there’s widespread distrust of Chinese figures anyway. So as far as I can see there’s no evidence they can easily contain viruses of this kind. Least of all “without much social and economic disruption” – on the contrary they have faced very significant disruption to both.

The Chinese are taking their place as the globally dominant power replacing the US, a process that will most likely occur over the next decade or two, hopefully without a major war as usually accompanied such shifts pre-nuclear peace. We will have to come to terms with that, much as the world had to come to terms with US dominance in the C20th and British dominance before that. What I see no signs of them being is evil geniuses different from any other human government in history. Corrupt, dangerous, scheming, mass murderous, yes – as are all governments, very much including ours and the US.

Your fundamental point is a good one, but it misses a number of things. I’ll limit myself to two quickish ones, because otherwise I’ll be writing this all day.

The first is that the fundamentals of the Chinese economy still rest on offshored and outsourced manufacturing. This supports them both through large scale employment opportunities and through the opportunity to steal IP. I’m directly aware of at least 2 high-tech US firms who are quietly, but rapidly moving their (substantial) China-based manufacturing facilities into other, more politically acceptable countries as a result of this crisis and I’ve no doubt that many others are also doing the same. This isn’t a killing blow, but it will hurt China without a doubt.

The second (on the other side) is the degree to which China has colonized the third world and done so without anybody paying very much attention. Where we and the EU and the US have given unconditional aid (mostly swallowed up into the bank accounts of dictators), China has bought up their natural resources.

But yes, we’ve created from nowhere an existential crisis in the face of an existential threat (hint: I’m not talking about a virus).

Morning fellow sceptics! It’s your intrepid travel correspondent reporting (maskless) from Stansted airport on our way for a holiday with all offspring and grandchildren- 13 of us from 4 households.

First of all Boris and his Merry men have been hugely successful in screwing the travel industry; I’ve never seen the airport so quiet- we used to have a holiday house in France and used to travel to Carcassonne frequently. We got through security in 5 minutes with no-one in front of us in the queue. Looking at the departure boards I would guess there are fewer than 25% of the flights I’d expect in August- all the flights between 10.45 and 16.00 are on 3 screens. At least half the seats in the departure lounge are unoccupied.

Sadly apart from temporary removal of masks whilst eating and drinking, I’ve only seen one other person without a mask. No-one has challenged me or the current Mrs DocRC about our lack of masks and no funny looks – many people look away.

Have a great time, show your faces, live it up!

The so called “idiots” flocking to the beaches still retain the sense common to most of humanity – sunlight is the best disinfectant AND sunbathing is pleasurable into the bargain.

This sense has been absent from the word go among our leaders and pathetic bedwetters everywhere. Let these plonkers have their masks, gloves and social distances if they must but count the rest of us out.

Not into beaches myself, despite living in Bournemouth, but 2 or 3 hours on the allotment gets me plenty of that sunshine disinfectant. Plus the earth on my hands will probably kill any nasty bugs floating around.

Non amo te, Sabidi…

Oh how I loathe the zombie race,
Its dead-eyed, noseless, mouthless face.
I wish that it were not a sin
To smash that stupid face right in.

Bravo!

My son was talking yesterday to his lifelong mate who moved to rural Victoria, Australia, a few years ago. Note: rural Victoria: the outback. Now this mate is a beer swilling, lairy, one-of-the-lads type of fella. He told my son he’s in favour of the severe lockdown there, because he’s terrified of getting the virus. My son, exasperated, said “Mate, your brain has gone soft. You are surrounded by lethal snakes and spiders, but your terrified of something which is unlikely to do you any harm!”

That’s precisely how it works – bypassing all critical faculties and pressing the button of irrational phobia.

Yes, it’s a curious disjunct. My riding instructor is the same. Thirty-something, healthy, fit, goes kayaking in white water, absolutely fearless with horses, quakes at Covid.

It’s mad. I’ve had all of my worst injuries from horse riding. Worst in the sense that they took many months of recovery. And these were just falling off and hurting something or pulling my shoulder out. That one was on an ex-police horse (17 hander), brilliant animal. But I’d be riding for 2 years and still learning. He saw a shadow when we were doing our jumps and all he did was side step briefly. I’d just tightened the reins a touch. Didn’t think anything of it until the next day I felt like I’d been run over.

Horses are fantastic but like you say, it’s a live animal and you can get hurt or killed

And yet I ride.
I know the risk.
I take it.
I live.

I’m assuming this is a fairly young man. This baffles me, surely everyone knows by now that unless you’re elderly or have a serious health condition, you are very unlikely to get seriously ill.

I was thinking about this the other day and it could be something that has come to be known as safetyism. When we were kids we were allowed to go to the park on our own, walk to school etc. Now, almost all kids are driven everywhere for fear of being abducted (no more likely than in the past, just reported more), or being run over, OK lots more traffic. Trouble is, they never learn road safety as we did or street smarts.

Going on to further education, they now can’t hear from anyone who has a different opinion from themselves without wilting like week old flowers.

Maybe that’s the problem.

I agree. Safetyism is a serious condition and can be brought on through over exposure to social media and the MSM.

On the flip side, I became infected with skepticism.

I think I contracted it at an early age when I was taught science at school. Then, I struggled to reconcile what I had been told at all the church services I had to attend up until the age of 15. Did God create us or did we really descend from apes?

My skepticism became progressively worse as I got older, but really took hold when Tony Blair became PM and took us to war in Iraq on the basis of non-existent WMD and a sexed-up dossier that began the downfall of the BBC.

My skepticism has now become uncontrollable and no amount of propaganda from the MSM can do anything to alleviate it.

My symptoms do however subside somewhat through regular sessions with Lockdown Skeptics anonymous. I am truly grateful and can now see myself continuing these daily sessions for the rest of my life.

Yes, I think we can safely say, all here are infected – thank goodness for that!

Yes, his mate is 31.

It’s the Nanny State, and the snowflake culture. “I must be protected from, well, anything! Anything which offends me, frightens me, challenges me, makes me feel uncomfortable.

Except the things I want to carry on doing, like smoking skunk, dangerous sports, etc, in which case you are violating my freedom and disrespecting me”.

‘Starmer overtakes Johnson as voters’ choice of prime minister’

Well that’s a shot in the arm for those of those who want to see an end to this madness!—Just what we’ve been waiting for I’m sure!

Apparently, we now have a Labour leader who is only too happy to ‘kneel’ and likes being photographed next to a cast member from Star wars whom the great British public would prefer to the very worst Prime minister this country has ever produced.
Hardly a ringing endorsement for Starmer. More like: anyone but Johnson and seeing as Starmer is leader of the Labour party it would seem to be him.

Our political party system is well and truly bust. Where are the Franklin Roosevelts, the Winston Churchills? towering statesmen who came to the fore when their countries were in great peril. Our country is in great peril and we have Johnson being overtaken by Starmer in the polls! It’s enough to make any sane person weep.

Yup, pretty dire! I practically spelled out to him what to do in a letter I sent months ago, instead he continues to support the government. He wouldn’t have acted any differently and might have even made things worse, supporting the teaching unions more for one thing.

Never believe the polls.

All pretty predictable. The engineering of Corbyn’s replacement (using wholesale press propaganda as was rolled out again for Covid) was to create another establishment-friendly puppet – not an ‘opposition’ in any real sense.

This isn’t about party politics, or the quality of Corbyn – it’s just about the way the control that we see visibly now in relation to Covid operates.

The sewer rats are stinking all over the place in British politics.

Yesterday, I apparently shocked two people “to the core” by expanding on a reader’s comment I saw in the Spectator which suggested that the reason we’re in this mess is the existence of the NHS. I went as far as suggesting that the lovely, cosy, traditional NHS might end up being the catalyst that results in the breakdown of society and, who knows, civil war, starvation, riots, sickness, a fascist government.

In this ‘crisis’, the government has used the NHS to, effectively, blackmail the population (“Save the NHS”) and has used it as an excuse to remove individual autonomy. Over-70s cannot choose to live out their final years as they see fit because if they indulge in ‘risky’ behaviour, they might end up taking up beds in Our NHS. The NHS has a quasi-religious function as well as delivering health care, and a government acting in bad faith can exploit this. The clapping ritual – and abuse of people who chose not to clap – was chilling.

And there’s something similar with the BBC. Because it’s a national broadcaster, and again has this quasi-religious function, it ends up unable to broadcast anything but, effectively, government propaganda. Sure, it thinks it’s giving the government a hard time by suggesting that the lockdown should have been brought in sooner etc., but the government is laughing at it. The BBC cannot do anything but agree with the principle of the lockdown itself, and the taking away of the people’s autonomy, because of its position as national broadcaster.

It wasn’t my aim to suggest that the NHS and BBC are bad per se. Merely that it may turn out that their existence results in extremely ironic consequences.

I fully agree with you. The NHS is also not fit for purpose. During lockdown people did not have access to non-covid health care. We still struggle to get access to required healthcare. How can we trust a healthcare system that can open and close the ‘access’ at will?

People think they have access to free health. No they don’t. It is not really free, people think the Government pay for it. Guess what, it is taxpayers money.

Health care is also rationed, you might not get the treatment you need and sometimes you will need to wait for 2 years before you can get it.

Examples:

• You are critically sick with Covid, but the NHS we will not treat you with HCQ Plus Zinc
• You are critically sick with Sepsis and risk losing your life or limbs but the NHS will not treat you with Dr Marik’s protocol of Hydrocortisone, Intravenous Vitamin C and Thiamin
• We want to be healthy but the NHS will not be proactive by optimising our vitamin D levels
• We want to be healthy but the NHS will not fix nutrient deficiencies, in fact nutrition is not even ‘covered’

As it is often said, the NHS is such a great system that *no other country* has chosen to try and replicate it!!!

NHS treatments get a cost benefit analysis (QALYs). If you disagree with it you can go private. And buy your own vitamin and mineral supplements. No harm in the placebo effect, either, it’s a useful thing.

Before all this bullshit hit the fan, I’d been advising my physical therapy clients that we would all have to become our own doctors in the near future. The NHS would collapse sooner or later. (Now we know: sooner!)

That time has now arrived. Big Time!!!

A doctor may be needed for A&E, crisis management, and diagnostic testing, but for the treatment of chronic (long term) illness – which takes up at least 80% of all healthcare – any reasonably intelligent person can take care of their own type 2 diabetes, heart disease, arthritis, autoimmune disease, migraines etc. etc.

Even cancer treatments can be done by the person themselves, with outcomes probably at least as good as conventional “cut, burn & poison”. (My old acquaintance the late Gerald Green, a self taught herbalist, cured many “sent home to die” cancer patients with an inexpensive regime of herbs and diet. His book “Breaking Through the Untouchable Diseases” is still available.)

There are tremendous resources in terms of books and YouTube videos, often written/presented by qualified medics or other professionals.

I learned this lesson over 30 years ago when some fairly simple self-help advice I gave to clients suffering from conditions ranging from schizophrenia to rheumatoid arthritis to ulcerative colitis to migraine to psoriasis, resulted in a complete turn-around of the problems which had defeated the best efforts (IOW the Magic Patent Pharma Pills) of their hospital consultants. (I did this as a “freebie” for these clients while sorting out their bad backs.)

These days, with the internet, people can find all this stuff out for themselves and become their own physicians.

As I said above, any reasonably intelligent person can do this. Unfortunately, as we have seen, reasonably intelligent people are in short supply, and most people are helpless without their White Coated Authority Figure to do their thinking for them.

Excellent advice, well said.

Isn’t it interesting though how it’s like this here, and yet countries with an arguably way more ‘left-wing’ socialised system of government (Scandinavia! ) have survived unscathed?

I find it so interesting. It’s the politicisation I think. In Sweden the health service is just the health
service. It serves its people. Here, the health service is the golden calf of political discourse. It is holy. It wins and loses elections.

Difference is the political system. A system where nobody really ‘rules’ (PR) versus an adversarial one where one has to use national ‘assets’ like the NHS politically to gain and retain power.

The Swedish healthcare system is also adapted and to a large extent governed regionally..

It is also contributory (with limits so no one pays more than a set maximum per year which in my area is 1150 kr per year). If you have greater needs in a particular year then treatment becomes free above the set maximum. There are systems in place to limit wastage and make sure people value it. Eg, even if you are on benefits and therefore not paying for treatment yourself, you *do* have to pay if you just fail to turn up for a booked appointment. People get fined if they miss booked appointments (without cancelling in advance), and the benefits system will not pay such fines!

My mum used to work in outpatients clinics in the UK and she said that on any day as many as a quarter of patients just did not turn up..

Ah that actually makes sense. So Sweden disincentivises people just wandering in by having to pay a small amount. But then for the less often more important stuff you’ve already paid.

Hobby-horses are fine – but they go nowhere.

It isn’t the fundamental nature of the NHS or the BBC that’s the problem – it’s the distorting political influence on them.

The real drivers of this come from big global capital – not public enterprises.

“ It isn’t the fundamental nature of the NHS or the BBC that’s the problem – it’s the distorting political influence on them. “

On the contrary, it is precisely their fundamental natures that make them problematic.

The BBC is a problem because it is grossly enlarged by having a secure state-mandated income flow, and it has a credibility as a supposedly unbiased national institution (that we have seen over the coronapanic is the opposite of reality) that makes it especially damaging as a purveyor of propaganda.

The NHS similarly is inherently damaging because it collectivises the cost of healthcare, allowing people to argue that people taking risks with their own health are “harming others”. If healthcare were funded by genuine charity rather than coerced “charity” that would not be an issue. It also gives rise to a centrally controlled monolith that is extremely vulnerable to disastrously counterproductive central government dictats, as occurred in this case.

Certainly there are countervailing benefits to the NHS (less so the BBC), but claiming these inherent negative aspects don’t exist is just wrong. Though you can of course argue that you don’t see them as negatives, since many people actually love central authority control, and many also love excuses to dictate how others live their lives.

Roll on the inquiry, although I doubt a sceptic will be involved. I’m sure it will praise the NHS to the hilt despite the fact they they were the reservoir of infection that killed most over the over 80’s.

I can’t disagree about the NHS, although as an American, it pains me to think of the UK with an American-style system. I’ve lived with that monstrosity (and have permanently damaged joints as souvenirs). And I’d hate to see as many sick poor people out and about as you typically see in the States – I’m talking untreated facial tumours and the like.

But the NHS is Brits’ Achilles’ heel. All that ride in taking care of the majority of the population – which is now disappearing as people realise how many people have been left to their own fate.

Even Private Eye called it a National Sickness Service

Went out last night, Me and Mrs 2-6 were pleased to see a pub we used to go to for Sunday Lunch has opened again. In we went, all looked pretty normal, two pints of Ice Cold Guiness please, bar lady pours out nearly two full pints, they didn’t take cash…..We had no cards….No beer for us…..

The pub was almost empty, two less customers. FFS

Went down the road to an out of town pub, closed, went back into town, went to a spoons, terrible, the line for the bar was HUGE, stretching outside and round the corner a 40 min wait to be served.

Town is terrible, all the pubs are crap, masked up waitresses doing table service bookings required, at the spoons, order with their spoons app, which registered you with the NHS track n trace.

What is the point of going to a pub? No chance of talking to people.

We went to a local park, loads of kids out and about having fun in the dark after midnight.

Mental!

Ice cold Guinness.

Mmmmmmmmmmmmm

Hmmm, I haven’t been forced to use the Wethy’s app so far, I’ve paid cash with no hassle. However, it might change round here. Just had trouble posting something, if I can get it on, it will explain.

we weren’t forced to use the app but it would make getting drinks so much easier. The penalty for not using the app is considerable in waiting times for a pint.

Good news. The wait is a pain, but maybe the queue at Wethy’s shows people were refusing the other joints?

More price related I’d expect

And they didn’t think to mention the card-only policy when you arrived! Gonna be quite a few wasted pints.

Can someone explain why people who clearly aren’t bothered about anti-social distancing, or wearing muzzles on the beach, suddenly become totally compliant when they go shopping? Is it because there isn’t (yet) any compulsion to do so?

Yep. This is what’s so ridiculous about it. One week, they’re perfectly happy not wearing anything. The next, it’s a rule and they’re all obeying. Not only that, many of them are legitimising something they weren’t doing voluntarily the week before! by shaming others who aren’t doing it.

But then again, honestly I think the
true mask Karens are a minority. The vast majority are just followers scared of being fined
Which explains why most of us haven’t had any (too) negative
encounters when going maskless

Seriously, if masks are imposed on outside areas such as beaches, I think people will not comply – it will be just too uncomfortable. And all the young who are doing it to virtue-signal are also an age group who tend to be obsessed with their appearance – who wants a half-tanned face with mask lines?

There’s a British expression that comes to mind. (I’m American and a dual citizen).

“Go along to get along.” Not something you’d expect to ever hear in the States.

If the highly anticipated devastating second wave did not materialise after the beaches were packed during sunny spells over the last few months – why would it appear now?

People not wearing their masks, obviously. Never mind we didn’t have the rule back in the days of the great catastrophe of Bournemouth (which never happened). When you haven’t worn your mask to shop and subsequently go to the beach, well you’re 50% more likely to pass on the virus.

And what I have typed above makes about as much sense as the stupid rules we are living under today.

A lot of those very same people who were mixing on the beach wear masks in shops.

So they aren’t covid bedwetters but they also aren’t brave enough to be the odd one out….

Not only that. They were semi naked sweating it out on the beach then walk into a shop with a mask on

Mask and speedos is a good look. Classy.

I bet they do. Could be they just don’t want the ear bashing from the Karens though. Must be really horrible if your name is Karen at the moment.

You’d have to walk past 5000 people to find 1 possible infection. If you’re under 60 the risk of dying from it is about the same as being run over. Grow up, get rational, the countries going to ruin.

If only other people realised this. I encountered my first ‘swerver’ for a while yesterday and a mask wearer in my local shop. Sadly, both young women.

More like 1,900 people than 5000?:
Latest figures from the Office for National Statistics (ONS), based on household surveys, reveal that from 27 July – 2 August about 1 in 1,900 individuals had Covid-19, with 3,700 new cases per day.

The figures are lower than in the previous week (20-26 July), when about 1 in 1,500 individuals were thought to have Covid-19, with 4,200 new cases a day. But they remain higher than 13-19 July when 1 in 2,000 individuals were thought to be infected, with 2,800 new infections a day.
But the numbers are so low anyway it’s not worth putting money on…

https://deutsch.rt.com/gesellschaft/105055-corona-ausschuss-drosten-test-immunologie

Why the PCR tests are bogus.
Meaning that all decisions taken upon their results were and are completely
wrong.

The story is changing.
Long Covid is being recognised as a medical condition. That is all the debilitating long term effects of a covid infection are now to be diagnosed as long covid. Including stress and anxiety. There is an evil bastard out of liverpool who is the poster boy for this latest shift in the narrative.
Firat 10 minutes of this describe what is happening. Richie Allen msm sources included:
https://youtu.be/wQoIsQTLpVk

Important development.

FFS. In that case I have Long Flu From 2018

Close the fucking country down every flu season to protect my ass.

Close the world down, just in case.

Gotta keep that fear going……It’s not as if, if your have a serious virus you ever get some fatigue and other symptoms afterwards is it? No, it is something special to do with the Covid.

You’ve just noticed. We’ve been in Clown World for the last year

Not just noticed. This has been much much longer in the making than a year.

So, when you go to the doctors with stress, anxiety, depression and panic attacks, the previous method of just prescribing random anti-depressants will now be replaced with “this is classic long COVID, you need to have the vaccine and this will resolve all your issues.”

Quite obvious to see where this is going.

Don’t forget hair-loss!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-8533487/Mum-30-hospitalised-reveals-shes-lost-55-locks-coronavirus.html

I’ll have a listen to that, thanks. I had noticed this change in the narrative over the past couple of weeks.

Just listened – really really worth it.

Ironically, I have 2 friends who, many years ago, got a nasty virus whilst living in Brunei. Although they recovered from the virus without too much trouble, they were then laid really low with ME for months on end. Would the doctors take any notice? No, just told them to stop malingering. About 10 years later, same with another friend.

So when the hype started up about the long term effects of recovering from a bout of a severe virus, I had a hollow laugh and thought that maybe, at long last, doctors just might start to take ME and PVFS seriously.

Now I’m worried it’s going to go too far the other way…..

Yes. ME sufferers have had many many years of not being believed by doctors and therefore others.

I’ve had ME for over 30 years. I was very lucky that my GP was great – though he couldn’t help me other than by writing sick notes when needed.

Significant that the evil Simon Wessely, the CBT psychologist who caused so much suffering for ME patients, was involved in this SAGE document:
https://coronavirusexplained.ukri.org/about/

Who the fuck does this prick think he is?

Mystery shopping’ will be used in Greater Manchester as part of targeted enforcement against pubs, bars and restaurants failing to follow new lockdown restrictions.The region’s mayor Andy Burnham has received reports that some licensed premises are failing to take the details of customers to comply with contact tracing rules.

While the public has been urged to report any non-compliant businesses, the authorities are planning to employ people to pose as secret shoppers to follow up on any complaints.
Under the new restrictions announced by the government last week separate households are not allowed to visit indoor venues together, including home visits.
Staff working at the establishments will not be expected to ‘interrogate’ people to check if they are in the same household or bubble.

Speaking at a press conference yesterday (Wednesday 5 August), Mr Burnham announced that there will be targeted enforcement on those found to be repeatedly flouting the restrictions.
He said: “If pubs are failing to take people’s details when they arrive, and we are receiving lots of reports that it’s still variable, then we will use targeted enforcement or mystery shopping to ensure all premises are maintaining the right procedures.”

Last time I looked, T &T was voluntary, according to government (non-statutory) guidance.

Ooh, there’s more!

Enforcement will also stretch to home visits should the evidence back it up, added Mr Burnham.

Try it, pal. Make my day.

Hope Tim Martin speaks out and some others. Perhaps the more draconian the measures the sooner the protests and tide turn.

IIRC (can’t be arsed looking again), the new ‘guidance’ for the Naughty North doesn’t change anything about T&T. And the new law doesn’t mention it, either, it only relates to homes and gardens. So what is Burnham basing his diktat on?

He’s basing it on people being too stupid to know the difference, and scaring them into complying..

As usual.

PPOWWERR

‘spoons has a box of chits and pencils at door and a box to post them in on way out. ‘Reasonable measures’, the bar staff aren’t PCSOs.

And that’s fine by me. You can obviously ignore it, or lie. Wethy’s have discharged their responsibility. But if councils or Burnham’s hit squads lean on ’em, who knows? There’s the big hammer – ‘licensing’.

Find the mystery shopper’s chit and send the boys round.

Why would he speak out, him and Boris are big chums.

He made his views clear back in March, when it might have actually counted. Since then he’s had to cave in, but it’s pretty obvious he thinks it’s a load of bollocks.

Wetherspoon’s Tim Martin attacks coronavirus ‘lockdown’
“ JD Wetherspoon Chairman Tim Martin has criticised the government’s measures to limit the spread of coronavirus after the tougher guidance hit his company’s share price.

Martin said the government had made an error by telling people not to go to pubs or restaurants. He said Prime Minister Boris Johnson should have stuck to his plan to build “herd immunity”, which suits the UK’s “robust instincts”.
He issued his statement after the company’s shares lost a fifth of their value in morning trading after Johnson issued his guidance. At 12:09 GMT Wetherspoon shares had edged back slightly to 596.5p but were still down 16%.
Wetherspoon’s maverick founder said the prime minister should copy the Netherlands’ approach, which accepts that most people will get the virus. A “lockdown” of activity for 12 weeks will result in a further outbreak of infections in July, he said, citing comments from a professor at Imperial College London.
“The Dutch approach has the additional advantage of being in tune with the robust instincts of the nation,” Martin said on Tuesday. “This is evidenced by Wetherspoon sales which have been positive in the last few weeks in spite of storms and health scares .””

Credit where it’s due.

This is gonna be like poll tax.

Everyone is gonna ignore everyone in power. – Eventually anyway. We will end up with a situation where the gvt. is saying things, the public is taking absolutely no notice, so they threaten the public, the public take even less notice, they can’t enforce it, and the whole country becomes a nation of law breakers.

Which basically means we’ve kicked them out of power and they’re just stood ranting on podiums but nobody’s listening.

That’s happening now in people’s personal lives but they have a hold over the business world and public bodies.

Public bodies are a lost cause – but quite frankly they have bene for decades. We can live without them until they turn.

Business is what needs swaying but the only thing that’s gonna do that is money continually falling down the drain. Which is happening on a daily basis so….. we’ll see how long they can hack it before collapsing. By collapsing I mean just not enforcing any of the rules at all. – This is already happening actually but they’re still keeping up the pretence for now.

It’s happening. Just veeeeeeeeeeeeeery slowly.

The difference from the poll tax is that there is no opposition party willing and able to exploit and foment resistance. Note that it’s a Labour politician doing this latest abomination, and Labour’s criticism throughout has been that the “Conservatives” didn’t lock down soon enough or hard enough.

So they’re going to pay people to grass while others have had their pay cut. Fantastic idea Andy, nothing like efficient use of tax payers money

Exactly, it is guidance, not law – so won’t they be acting illegally if they try this?

Would that by any chance be the same Andy Burnham who (as Health Secretary) presided over the Stafford Hospital Scandal ?

It’s certainly the same one that’s cosied up to Oldham Council to water down grooming gang enquires.

Yes. Can’t really pin this one on de Piffle and Poppycock.

Any bets for how long it will take the majority of the population to realise that there’s something “a bit fishy” going on?

Just been into B and M with OH and grandson. We were the only three in there unmasked-apart from all the staff that is. Doesn’t it ever occur to the muzzleots that the staff there are in contact with far more strangers than they are during the course of a day but they don’t have to wear a mask. Will they ever ask why not?

No, you see the plastic screen protects them, and it keeps working as they walk back to the warehouse or to the next till. Honest.

Talking to a lot of folk around where I live they all seem to feel that something is wrong, but they have a mental block about doing anything about it. I think it’s a British problem, that they’re too embarrassed to say it and stand out from the crowd, and not wanting to cause any trouble.

The larger part of the problem these days is that people fritter most of their energies online. Exorcise themselves, and actually do nothing.

Apologies if other have already posted links to this article, but reading the comments on this Daily Mail article, it certainly sounds like some kind of critical mass has been achieved.

Lockdown ‘killed two people for every three that died of coronavirus’: 16,000 people in the UK died in five weeks as hospitals shut down to deal with COVID while 25,000 died from the virus
Lots of angry folks out there.

I really dislike the term “bedwetter” as a term of abuse. To have this problem would be a misfortune and doesn’t help the excellent case.

I dislike the term “granny killer”.

Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire- or in this case, murder with piss.

Yes, I am a granny and 57 yo – I trust my immune system!

What could be used instead?

Pants shitter?

Masked Morons?

cottonfaces ?

I do like ‘cottonfaces’. Makes me laugh.

Shit trousers

Cowards?
Doom-mongers?
Panickers?
Naive?

ignoranuses

Do you really think the Guardian are suddenly going to take notice of what we are saying if we drop the term “bedwetter”?

I doubt Guardian readers are haunting the pages of this site (well, except for the bold few like me, but I’m anti-lockdown). But it’s almost impossible to engage their readers in discussion anymore – almost all COVID-related articles do not allow comments.

I’ve enjoyed the Guardian for over 60 years, although must say I did have a wobble when they went over to lower case for alsatian dog, cardigan, cheddar cheese, french windows, swiss roll, wellington boots, yorkshire pudding and many others. Not to mention champagne and scotch. And of course nowadays their younger writers seem to think ‘different to’ is acceptable. Never realised until lockdown, and moving to electronic version, that they allowed readers to comment on articles, other than by writing a letter. A mistake, I think.

Buck up John, you’re not on a woke website this is lockdownsceptics. Try the garundian, they’ll love you and make you feel welcome.

I agree that name calling sends it down to that level of less mature discussion. It’s hard not to go there though but I seriously think we should limit the derogatory labeling. We’re being called anti this and denier that and we need to stay above that level of divisiveness. I sure do like Lisa’s term Maskholes though!!

I agree, it doesn’t really sum up the brain washed hypochondriac mentalists that believe the Corona bolox.

How about lockdownistas, lockdown zelots, hypochondriacs, covid believers, people who are “on message”, or fucktards.

Covysterics is my person favourite, and own coinage – I think.

But I still like bedwetters. It really captures an…. image of these people I think is probably largely accurate.

how about the brainwashed ?

Brainwashed works, unthinking people etc.

Calling folks names only entrenches divergence. It isn’t bright, I am guilty as anyone. Much better to use repect to win arguments.

There is a need for a term to describe the limp lettuces which is meaningful without being derogatory in my view.

Zombies.The living dead.

What about ‘nappy wearers’. Sums up the mask worn on face and the fact that you won’t wet the bed if you wear one on your nether regions. Obviously, grown ups don’t need one for their bottom half (unless they have true incontinence).

I piped up about just that 2 or 3 weeks ago. Has made no difference.

John and hoppity I agree.

The reddit sceptics simply call them “doomers”.

I didn’t realise I’d sparked such a conversation. “Doomers” seems pretty good.

I tend to use panickers or coronapanickers, when there’s a need for tact.

But there’s a place for tact and there’s a place for rabble rousing. Bedwetters falls into the latter category, I think. You’re correct in your point that it can be and is used by others to try to discredit the site and its inhabitants, but I genuinely don’t think that’s been much of an issue so far. W have always been basically beyond the Pale anyway. Chasing respectability when you are being painted as uncaring selfish granny killers is pretty futile imo.

If you want to change people’s minds it doesn’t seem to help much apart from anything else, but it also reminds me of school in an unpleasant kind of way. Better to win the argument by being more reasonable than being more unpleasant, when there is plenty to be reasonable about.

I don’t disagree with anything you say there, it’s just I think it doesn’t cover the whole issue and doesn’t necessarily address what this site is really about. Early on, this site was more about reassuring people that they were not alone, and were not insane, when there were so few open dissenters around and the government and entirety of the media was basically gaslighting us pretty much in unison. That, and rallying anger against what was being done to us. Then the use of the term helped rally the troops, I think, though it was certainly alienating for some. Still does, but that might be less of an issue today.

Yes, well I have obviously wandered in at an odd time…

Vanity Hammocks?

So has anyone seen the death total go down yet? Has anyone seen any reporting of the ‘nobody recovers from covid’ admission on tv?

Doesn’t look like it has gone down. When will it? In like two months?

And when it suddenly goes down by …. 5k? Or something, how will they explain that on the bbc?

The 28 day conditions will more than likely only lower it by a few hundred. When you think there’s only been registrations for 4 months and most died between April 1st and May 31st, the only a 2 month period, it won’t change that significantly.

I thought I read it was going down by about 4…something…k?

The best graphic showing mortality is this one :

https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-19-florence-nightingales-daigrams-for-deaths/

Lovely day in Edinburgh today, roads are busy and people out and about. Cue lockdown next week as too many people have been out enjoying themselves.

P.s. who in their right mind wears a mask on a bus in 70deg heat.

Someone who doesn’t want to get thrown off said bus. I’ve seen it happen twice where I live. Women both times.

I think with the coming Autumn and into what may just be a Winter of Discontent, the one burning question will be “How do we get these bastards out?”. For any politician now is the time to get your story in order as if doesn’t matter what the official rules say, there is going to be a forced election.

Currently many in the population seem to think that the government has done a good job, saved lives. But it only takes a small percentage of change for a cascade to happen.

Personally the ugliest thing has been letting people die alone. I mean if you are dying of TB you still can get in wearing a suit.

The causal cruelty of it.

That’s what actually gives me distress about the masks. I don’t mind people wearing a mask if you choose. But forcing it on people, the mask becomes a political symbol. It becomes an insignia.

Yes it is the stories of sadness and loss that are the worst part of it for me and will go on and on whilst all the second wave and winter deaths crap continues

One problem is there’s is no viable alternative. If we get the government out, and the opposition take over then we get a party that wants a even stricter measures put in place, and didn’t think the existing measures were strong enough.

There’s no political party that isn’t anti lockdown. Even Farage is a bed wetter when it comes to COVID-19, so to me there seems no options.

That’s right. None of them have challenged this, not for it’s severity, stupidity, collateral damage or even just plain old red vs blue. Who could you vote for, really?

So true! It really speaks of where this is coming from. No push back in Canada either…the official opposition hasn’t opposed a darn thing.
And all the mainstream media is on board too and pushing the single narrative hard.

True.
No change is possible without a new political party.

I felt this with Brexit too. The old guard have to go, they no longer represent the people they claim to represent, any of them.

Unfortunately our first past the post system makes that very unlikely (look at how many votes ukip/brexit got over the years, yet never got a single seat).

There is no opposition party. That is the frightening truth. This is a one-party state in effect – it’s now just the nodding heads that change.

That’s the reason (as I’ve mentioned elsewhere) why the campaign against Corbyn was so frenetic and wildly propagandised beyond reasonable political argy-bargy. He wasn’t under control and within the narrow spectrum of permissible establishment views.

You can have any political views that you want, whether you are a Corbyn hater or a Corbyn acolyte. But one thing’s for sure – you aren’t allowed real alternatives when you actually make your choices. That’s far too dangerous – and democratic.

One party government since 1997.Farage is controlled opposition,any time he has a chance to make a real difference he backs off.If he had stood his candidates in the last election we wouldn’t have this shower of shit in charge

Just out of curiosity, do you know what Corbyn’s view on all this is? I know his brother, Piers, is a sceptic.

I like Piers, he kept on talking in Hyde Park even though he was arrested 3 times. One time, 6 policeman carted him off to the Police van (one elderly man with a megaphone). The following week the Police were either running away from or taking a knee for the BLM ‘protesters’.

Jeremy is all for it, keeping the workers safe, not putting workers lives at risk for profit etc.

True. All we can do is hope to have checks and balances. The Law of Hamurrabbi gets some stick but it does require Skin in the Game.

The alternative are different newer parties – but that requires momentum. What tends to happen in crises is polarisation – happened in Northern Ireland. The main parties hollowed out leaving Sinn Fein and the DUP

Agreed. Go ahead and wear one if it makes you feel safer but don’t dare to force one upon me.
I’ve not felt one bit unsafe since this cycle began and I’m still confident that my immune system is all the safety I need.

It’s amazing isn’t it. It’s not the mask it’s the intent. There’s a funny graffitti in Bournemouth saying “Covid is an IQ test”

I live in Bournemouth. I’ve got a picture on my phone of graffiti that says “Did we just applaud the DEATH of the NHS???” It was in a subway under the main road right next to Bournemouth University. I thought it would probably disappear and sure enough, it did. There was a lot of other graffiti there as well, but strangely, that one was the only one cleared. I’ve wondered about sending it somewhere, but wasn’t sure where was appropriate.

Sounds like one for Twitter! (And here, post it to us!)

Don’t use Twitter (the devil’s spawn). Can’t see how to post it here. Any guidance would be appreciated.

Let’s see if I figured it out (thanks to zacaway for showing the way, if this works).

“Covid is an IQ test”

That’s great. Wish I’d come up with that.

My stepson’s just told me about his night out last night. His first since the lockdown began. Went to a bar first. Only weird thing was the temperature zapper at the entrance. No track and trace. Didn’t notice social distancing inside. All normal. Went onto a club. Again no track and trace . Club was heaving. Exactly the opposite of social distancing! Only thing that was different was no karaoke and dance floor closed. No singing or dancing allowed in puritan Wales! He told me first taxi he and his friends stopped on way home didn’t let them in as they had no masks. Second one let them in maskless. Driver told them he thought the lockdown was a load of rubbish and the virus a big scam. My stepson told him all the stuff I’ve been telling him about this nonsense (I’m impressed he’s been taking in all my ranting) and the driver was so pleased that he wasn’t the only sceptic in town. All in all he had a very almost normal night out! And people were buying him shots all night – bonus!

Also check out the main article on the Wales Online website about Tenby. Very, very encouraging from a sceptic point of view. Though there’s another article there about a dickhead doctor recommending wearing face masks on the beach. Oh just do us a favour and piss off.

You’d have to be worried about consulting a doctor whose level of knowledge was such as to think that mask-wearing in the open air was a good idea!

There must be some doctors who haven’t had the last vestiges of common sense trained out of them. Few and far between though.

I live and work in Tenby. Saw four nappies today, two if them Asian so obviously lost their faces. long time ago.
Everything else normal, stupid soc dis notices apart, A lovely sunny day by the sea.
Screw the Covinazis.

Any thoughts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6A6RFDprIs&feature=emb_rel_end

What a safe cheap treatment for covid 19 with 100% success rate that would mean we don’t need a vaccine….

Its doomed!

Don’t think this treatment for worms, lice, scabies has been used to treat anyone with CV 19 yet. So nil success rate so far.

was the doctor on the clip lying?
he seemed to be saying it had been, extensively.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.06.20124461v2
Right, now found this trial in US very recently on some very sick patients. See the comments though, they don’t seem to even know how many were given 1 or 2 x12 mg doses. And they were being given other drugs at the same time. So hard to see which made what difference.

Quite a small number of patients but it seems reasonable that it would work a bit. Probably like afifavir, remdesivir or HCQ.

HCQ seems to have been politicised on both sides and the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

Yeah. Politicised drugs eh? But then the US always seems as exotic as India to me.

Wait for the denouncements from the usual suspects as confirmation that it is effective!

I keep wondering what virologists/immunologists/people who generally study this stuff have been doing for years. I remember one particular discussion I had with and expert in this field and ended up telling him to take his head out of his textbooks and start looking at reality:
Why antibodies may not be the key to beating coronavirus
Worries over waning antibodies may be overblown, as growing evidence shows a role for T cells in the coronavirus immune response.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/08/antibodies-not-only-key-to-beating-coronavirus-cvd/

It’s a process that has evolved over hundreds of millions of years, and all the different arms of the immune system generally work together seamlessly.

I was aware, early on, that immunologists know this stuff but epidemiologists don’t. In fact, epidemiologists don’t want to know it. If they did, their models would be ‘wrong’. Their ‘SIR’ model cannot allow for such subtlety. And nor can the concept of ‘R0’. ‘R0’ is supposed to be a fixed value for the duration of the epidemic, and in conjunction with the basic SIR model produces the supposed herd immunity threshold. And if immunity is not a fixed, binary thing (e.g. detectable antibodies), it is meaningless to a standard-issue epidemiologist.

Here is some proof:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1u_yworTco

If you start watching at about 2.04.10, you’ll hear Imperial College modeller Samir Bhatt categorically equate immunity with serological antibody testing. If 5% of the population shows antibodies then in his mind, 95% of the population is still as wide open and ‘susceptible’ as on Day 1. He is completely unaware of the other mechanisms in the immune system.

And it works the other way round, too. I could find you a discussion where an immunologist defers totally to ‘the modellers’ when it comes to working out the herd immunity threshold, even though with a little looking around they would realise that the modellers exist in their own, isolated, fantasy world and know nothing about the immune system.

Epidemiology as a discipline has experienced a lot of damage from the ‘modelers’ who are subject to the GI>GO syndrome big-time. Which wouldn’t be so much of a problem if mistakes were taken as a learning opportunity – which, given the Ferguson/ICL record clearly isn’t the case.

On the other hand, good epidemiologists like Wittkowski, who have called it right at an early stage, have actually been censored!

I suspect you’ve probably seen this one already, where an immunologist basically talks sense, because it’s been linked here a few times. But I’ll post it here anyway just in case, and for any readers who haven’t yet seen it. Highly recommended:

Ep91 Emeritus Professor of Immunology…Reveals Crucial Viral Immunity Reality

Saw this post on Quora yesterday.

Question:

I don’t reject the science, but mask mandates feel authoritarian to me. I fear they will be in place forever, even after a vaccine as some hardliners seem to want. Will we be able to throw away our masks next spring?

Most popular answer (1,400+ upvotes):

I would be less concerned about the authoritarian angle if I were you.

Authoritarian states hate masks. Masks prevent the state from easily identifying individuals in the street, limit the effectiveness of pervasive CCTV, and provide cover for anti-authoritarian activities.

Watch out for the people who want to ban masks, not those who want to mandate them. The anti-maskers are the natural authoritarians.

Seriously? Have we really reached this level of Orwellian logic?

The guy who posted that answer is a prolific contributor, so much so that I suspect he is an agent of the UK state’s troll-farm (aka 77th Brigade ).

“Watch out for the people who want to ban masks, not those who want to mandate them. The anti-maskers are the natural authoritarians.”

Now in what world does the above make sense?

As you say, it is really Orwellian speak.

“Freedom is slavery”

I just don’t get this way of thinking, it’s not thinking at all. I bet these are the same people who when questioned about loss of any form of privacy – I.D. cards, having your private conversations recorded, your emails read, say, “if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear”.

Every time I heard that I wanted to scream, and sometimes did (not in public).

Their answer also only makes sense if you live in an authoritarian state, which we supposedly do not. So their answer is completely irreleavnt, and we should have the freedom to choose whether we do or don’t wear masks.

Trouble is, they want to live in an authoritarian state because they think it’s safer.

Quote by Franklin, more pertinent today then ever :

“Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.”

Freedom of choice is a bit different to wanting masks banned.

Good point, not heard anyone say they want them banned.

The sight of a nappied numpty makes me sick, but it’s their choice if they want to look nauseating.

Note the slight of hand in the argument:

people who want to ban masks

Nobody is advocating this position – they have created a false dichotomy (mandate vs ban masks) in order to exclude the real alternative which is simply a free choice for the individual to make.

Ghislaine Maxwell is believe to be one of the most prolific posters on Reddit, behind the Maxwellhill account that accounted for over a third of all posts.

These sites are all about brainwashing so you can well believe the 77th have a good foothold in there.

A police line up of suspects in masks!

Drip drip, the pressure continues from HMDT

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/08/08/confusing-contradictory-data-triggering-pointless-local-lockdowns/

Just been chatting to my neighbour, i mostly chat to her husband and I think he is a sceptic as he keeps saying to me ‘i remember you telling me about how it’s funny how all of the postman, shop workers, police aren’t dead, the more I think about it it is strange…’ etc etc I’ve also told him to Google agenda 21.

Anyhoo I was asked by her about a party yesterday in one of the neighbouring gardens, it ended late, lots of singing etc.

I said yeah, a bit noisy but good to hear people enjoying themselves and hope they don’t get grassed up as the covid police will be round to which she smiled.

She then said all those people who could be spreading it.

Told her don’t worry, it’s gone there is no danger, if anyone does get ‘it’ they won’t even know.

Minor agreement with raised eyebrows.

I then said the only virus is the little ginger woman in charge, to which she wholeheartedly agreed (like most people I talk to do).

Point I’m trying to make is we need people to think it is gone, if they do there will be more voices not accepting all of the brainwashing.

A few of the small shops in my town are operating with the fear that they have liability if customers don’t wear masks,one owner said he doesn’t care if customers wear one or not but he is worried about the police or council fining him.
I’m sure I read that the shop isn’t liable for non-masked customers.

Only a policeman, PCSO or Govt/Council official can enforce it, from what I remember of the law.

My understanding is that no-one can *enforce* it: if you are exempt from wearing a mask, under the government’s own ‘reasonable excuse’ guidance, then no, the police (and certainly not some local council operative) cannot require you to put on a mask.

The shopkeeper, however, is perfectly within his rights to refuse to serve you, and/or refuse you entry to his premises, so long as he is not breaking the terms of the Equality Act, although he would be hard pressed to prove he is not if you state that you are exempt (and you needn’t even carry any exemption badge/note/whatever).

Perhaps a bit rushed, what I meant was Police/PCSO/Official are the only ones that can ask you to explain your exemption, and then – say – you were just refusing, they can enforce *the law* and ask you to leave or whatever. No, they can’t force you to wear a mask… yet. Mr. Burnham might have other ideas, though!

I wonder if that’s even true though. I thought that any health issues are between you and your doctor, NO ONE else has the right to know about them unless you want to tell them. They can try to persuade you to leave but unless you’ve committed a criminal act in the shop (or wherever) and the shop has called the police in they CANNOT arrest you for not wearing one if you say you have an exemption – and I would suggest even if you DON’T say you have an exemption. I could be wrong but the wearing (or not) of masks is defined by rules and regulations, NOT legislation (i.e. LAW).

To be clear, I agree with what you’ve written but I don’t think you have to explain ANYTHING about why you are exempt. I would, just to be on the safe side, know WHICH of the exemptions you want to say apply to you.

DavidC

Have a look at the actual legislation, DC. It’s there, honestly. Not that we care, though.

Shops are not liable for any penalties for having non masked up customers in their shop.

News from the railway industry. Wolmar’s quite a prominent commentator.
https://www.christianwolmar.co.uk/2020/07/rail-909-jaccuse-the-culprits-wrecking-the-rail-industry/

” If this pandemic goes on without a vaccine or a cure, and continues at a low level for months if not years, what will be left of the rail industry? Even I as a train lover would not be able to justify spending billions on a system that no one uses. “

This ‘pandemic’ has – of course – gone inn any real sense. What is left is generated artificial panic.

Along the lines of “don’t waste a good crisis”, I’ve wondered if the government sees this situation as an opportunity to turn the public against the NHS and get rid of bus and rail services. Quite a good outcome, at least from their perspective. Not great for those of us who love trains and local bus services.

I have got to the stage of being prepared to listen to any explanation of this egregious behaviour. Normal political/constitutional restraints have been abandoned – as has rationality.

I reckon there’s a confluence of overlapping interests – from the influence of global capital, through the seizing of opportunity, to the operation of simple incompetence and dumb stupidity.

and HS2?

HS2? I’ve lived in Birmingham and Manchester and can see no reason for that abomination to go forward. We need decent trains that serve the regions, not ones designed to make more people commute to London.

London’s becoming a ghost town anyway.

Anecdotes from Sturgeon-land: recommended shop-Savers; friendly welcome; when I showed my badge the lady in charge stopped to ask me about any hostile reactions or unpleasantness: she was genuinely interested.

When I told her I’d been lucky, she related the trouble which a much younger exempt customer has had: apparently this girl has been bullied and insulted not by shop workers but by her fellow citizens!

The Savers lady thinks that younger folk are being singled out by the Covid Brown Shirts:( my latest name for the gagging confraternity).

Lovely!

Savers is an excellent discount shop though.

Secondly, surreal encounter at our library with one of the assistants: I put books through the letter box, but she saw me, opened the door, and asked me to collect my books and put them on the nearby trolley.

Then,she pulled mask up from her neck, and told me that returned books could not be handled by staff and would be quarantined for 14 Days from return date :(obviously book handling is now a potentially lethal manoeuvre!).

Thirdly, visit to friend who is a social distancing enthusiast; pleasant time in her garden with another friend. As normal as can be expected nowadays.

But, what completely bamboozled me was the behaviour of her neighbour, a well educated and intelligent bloke whom I’ve got to know reasonably well over the past few years: he and his wife shop for my pal and are generally helpful, obliging and civilised.

This man is now absolutely terrified: he has apparently declared that, being 57, he could catch calamitous covid and die!!!

This utterly irrational behaviour is completely beyond me; even while the evidence continues to show that this is not The End Of Humanity As We Know It,formerly well balanced, educated folk are displaying a form of fear-driven OCD.

This is the second example of such ridiculous panic which I’ve encountered recently.

I’m older and poorer than both of them and I’m not afraid, just increasingly exasperated.

“ formerly well balanced, educated folk are displaying a form of fear-driven OCD.”

I think one of the major reasons for despair is this fact – the incontinent and baseless fears have taken over the ability to think rationally.

Now- I know that there’s a reason for this in evolutionary terms – for a short spell. But this extended shut-down of critical faculties amongst so many seemingly intelligent people is far more scary than any known virus.

Quite so; and these folk have influence-both in assets, wealth and voting patterns.

I’d like to know if they are on full pay, though. It is very easy to be “utterly terrified” if you are at home on full pay, when the alternative is having to go back to work.

Both are affluent, with, as far as I know, substantial assets.

Allowing yourself to be brainwashed into continuing terror of the virus is a luxury that, amazingly, hasn’t been open to shop-workers, bus drivers and the rest of the low paid of society, even at the ‘height’ of the scamdemic when they might actually have caught the virus.

Now shop-workers have been forced into muzzles in many stores, adding insult to injury.

Quite right, and I’ve attempted to show how this nonsense is driving an economic and social divide which will continue to play out.

All the workers whom I encountered today were either gagged or wearing space helmets.

Our bin men don’t wear masks, though how long this will last, remains to be seen.

This morning,while with my two friends, I recounted details of yesterday’s superb comments from psychiatrist ‘Alpine’: the rise in severe mental illness, loss of support, need for sectioning for those in extremis etc.

The 2 pals looked pensive but they’re not going to change until given ‘permission’ and an assurance that bodies will not fill the streets.

Put the blame where it belongs – on the Spiv snake-oil salesman in blue.

Most people I know who have been working at home or on furlough are not keen on it, and would like to get back to proper work.

Faux-envy and resentment projected on people isn’t any more a pretty sight than Covid panicdemic. The induced fear that I see is definitely real.

We need a placebo vaccine otherwise these people will die a very lonely paranoia induced death.

lol

During the early days of the Troubles in Belfast, a priest would do a mass absolution by waving his hands and sprinkling holy water over people. He’d run in and run out. Then curfew would come and the subsequent gun battles.

Who cares if they do?

Not me

Books deadly. Post and junk mail not.
14 days for books
Shoes…24 hours
Corona Virus can live of surfaces for 72 hours they keep telling us.

I think what I see there is the sun setting on libraries.

I saw some figues a while ago – viruse survive for longer on plastic surfaces than they do on paper – and we’ve all recently started using ‘plastic’ notes! Great work BoE!

DavidC

Survive is more accurate tgan my ‘live’ of course. 14 days is a healthy tea break before relending a book to the public for err own the damn thing in the first place!

Interesting…funnily enough the first thing I’ve always done with my library books every since I was a child is peel off those disgusting plastic covers that are filled with other peoples debris and enjoy the lovely feel of the paper.

The library workers are worried that the council might soon impose cuts and closures, claiming to be following ‘the science’.

Preston have a new official slogan:

“Don’t kill granny”

well open the fcukin hospitals back up then!

Saw the head of council (mayor?) interviewed on Sky. Who do these people think they are – some two bit trumped up local bureaucrat. The only people who have killed granny are our politicians, and those responsible in NHS England for sending them to certain death in a care home. The attack on the young is a disgrace.

They should be fact checked and censored because the probability of it happening is likely to be tiny.

Spot on. I think it’s tragedy and a CRIME that the government told hospitals not to take people in from nursing/care homes and to send BACK people from hospitals to nursing/care homes. Oh, and then force those homes to lock down. To me that was MURDER by the government. Despicable doesn’t even begin to describe it.

DavidC

“…because she’ll die alone”

Not very imaginative though.

“Don’t kill granny”

keep being classy Preston…

That’s ok, I’m only looking to kill grandads!

Oi !

I’m trying to register for Lockdownskeptics forum. But when I receive the activation link in my email, it only takes me to an error message: “Information – The activation key you supplied does not match any in the database.” There is no activation key visible anywhere on the error message page.

Does anyone know how I can get help?

admin@freespeechunion.org

https://lockdownsceptics.org/privacy-policy/

could be an option…

I don’t recall having to register separately for the forums.

You have to sign back in again – same username and password as here.

Problem I had was, even though it asks for “mail address or username” it really means username. I tried with email address a couple of times and no dice.

Try to register then check your email for the verification link.

I suspect that attitudes towards lockdown are very much affected by whether a person is at home (I won’t say working) on full pay, or not.
Many many jobs is the large bureaucracies (public or private) are unnecessary. They don’t require you to do anything much. However, they have the inconvenient characteristic of requiring you to turn up. If you don’t even have to turn up, it’s paradise! A few tricks of the trade will keep you looking busy, while giving plenty of time for gardening, odd jobs around the house, family time with the children.
And to think you are doing it for a worthy cause is the icing on the cake. You really would not want anyone to spoil the party by going back to work and demonstrating there is no need to stay at home.

Same here in Portugal… it’s basicaly all classes of civil servants public or too big to fail companies with secured jobs and retired people bowing to whatever State says…nothing new under the sun.

I am working from home in decent, steady job (private sector) but hate it and resent the unnecessary lockdown all the more because of it. I am really busy but it takes me ages to get anything done (e.g. scanning and emailing things to my secretary with explanation rather than just taking things to her and having a quick chat). Plus I am constantly aware that I cannot do important parts of my job anything like properly (e.g. training juniors, discussing difficult issues etc.). No – it is not the same over zoom. Most of those I work with feel similar to me – we are out there. I have to admit that I am now instinctively suspicious of anyone who says how much they like working from home. I absolutely do not see how anyone can possibly think that they can do their job anything like as well from home unless they do something utterly mindless. There are many companies who would love to get people back but fear of bad publicity, being perceived as putting staff “at risk” or being sued by someone who gets the flu after feeling “pressure” to return to work are genuinely big factors to consider. There needs to be a clear government message that employers can point to to defend the position that things are safe and that there is no need for people to carry on working from home unless they are specifically vulnerable. Sadly, that message is not there and I cannot see it coming any time soon.

With you 100% I hate working at home.

My idea is not that people working from home are in favour of lockdown. It is that people in favour of lockdown are likely to be people working from home on full pay.
The next time I hear someone arguing for full lockdown, I want the interviewer to ask them if they are working from home and on full pay.

i think i don’t meet your hypothesis – i work from home full time on full pay and hate the lockdown. To be fair i worked a fair bit from home before anyway so is an extension of that, but it’s very lonely and no differentiation between home and work.
Our office is open but have to book a desk, wear masks if moving around the office (which is my biggest issue though i see the company is mandated to do this), and there’s hardly anyone in, so doesn’t seem worth it.
Might see next week just for a change of scenary.

Who is mandating the company to force muzzles on those around, please?

I would like to know why your company is mandated to do this too please

Ah – point understood! I would agree with that one! And I would agree with the idea of the interviewer asking!

I’ve been home based for about 3 years now. I have (or had) access to a couple of offices, but have very, very little reason to go in, partly because I work for HQ, not for the UK business, so nobody else in those offices is a colleague in a meaningful sense and none of those people are the people I could productively meet with except once in a blue moon. I’m very used to working remotely from an office and from my team – even my PA is the other side of the Atlantic, so handing over documents and having a quick chat has never been an option. It is possible to learn to use the tools you have to get a close approximation to being in the office with your team (assuming you have the right tools), but I agree it isn’t the same and isn’t as immediate.

The big difference is that, as most of my job is client-facing, I used to travel once every 2-3 weeks, almost always abroad and meeting the same people over Teams and communicating with them by email is nothing like as useful as meeting them face to face. My big worry is that that kind of behaviour will never be normal again. Not only will the cost of a flight be so much higher than it used to be and so the business case will be much harder to justify, but the clients will think it’s strange of me to consider jumping on a flight to Germany for a 2 hour meeting, when we could just do it by Teams.

I’ve realised recently that everything I really enjoy about my job has completely disappeared, leaving me with irritating drudge work.

Good piece by Martin Kulldorf.
Herd immunity is still key in the fight against Covid-19

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/herd-immunity-is-still-key-in-the-fight-against-covid-19

The pandemic will not be over until we reach herd immunity, either through a vaccine or through natural infections. Herd immunity is not a strategy but a proven scientific phenomenon, and to deny that is as silly as denying gravity. With the right strategy, we can even use it to save lives.

Under the vaccine scenario, the right strategy is to protect the elderly and other high-risk groups until they are protected by herd immunity, while the younger generations keep society afloat. Under the second scenario of natural immunity, the right strategy is to protect the elderly and other high-risk groups until they are protected by herd immunity, while the younger generations keep society afloat. If these two strategies sound about the same, they are.

The 1 mil £ question is: who computes (cook) those numbers?

Under-tested vaccines of a dubious origin have a greater risk IMNSHO than any quotidian virus – particularly one that is a rare species in the real world.

If they weren’t a risk, why would the government issue an indemnity relating to side effects.

I’ve been wondering why it’s not considered safer just getting the virus when we know that for most people it’s relatively mild vs taking a vaccine for which we know nothing of the possible long term negative effects.

I asked my Mother about the ‘diease parties’ when we were very young and when she was young. Parents would take their children to diseased children to allow their own to cacth the disease and a) get it over with and b) develop the herd immunity (although they wouldn’t have known about it or called it that).

I do remember being vaccinated against polio but even for polio the risk of complications was actually quite low. Most of the biggest changes with regard to disease have not been the result of vaccines but rather dramatic and good changes in public health.

DavidC

The irony being that those diseases are probably far more dangerous than this virus.

Just been into Aldi for the first time since lockdown as they wouldn’t allow OH and Into shop together then, so we stopped going.

Two things made us laugh out loud.

One was the floppy Perspex screen to separate our queue and the queue for the next till. It was hung from the ceiling with a large gap above it and a smaller gap below it-ideal for a high flying or limbo dancing virus.

Two was the maskless member of staff in Aldi uniform going around doing her OWN shopping. How does the virus know when she is working?

On a plus note, there were definitely a few more naked shoppers today.

One of the Aldi’s I go to has that hanging screen. Always reminds me of an abbatoir.

In my view today is the that the worm turned.
Hardly any on-street mask wearing, none at all in my one visit to nearby convenience store. Of course the weather helped.

Over the course of a dozen conversations talk invariably turned to the Covid/lockdown, sometimes instigated by me, sometimes not. All of them ended in versions of
“It’s all bollox’

Heartening. Love all these ‘out in the real world’ reports.

Not where I am… Massive increase in outdoor mask wearing…

Eldest son went to buy his teams new football shirt this morning. There was a bit of a queue to enter the shop. Guess what was the most commonly used phrase amongst these die-hard supporters?
Yes “It’s all a load of bollocks” and they weren’t discussing the increased cost of the new shirt either.

Bull-Hanson is on the case again:

https://youtu.be/48uVrdvgZyw

My favourite Viking, after Ragnar Lothbrok.

Is that hairybreeks?

Not come across him before, but I like the cut of his jib.

The only problem is that I’ve been watching a slightly weird Norwegian comedy series, Norsemen, where the actors and actresses are clearly all Norwegian but speak English, with that same fascinating Norwegian accent. So Bull-Hansen just distractingly reminds me of some of the characters in that series.