2020-08-16

Sourcehttps://lockdownsceptics.org/2020/08/16/latest-news-105/
Published2020-08-16T10:42:08
Last updated2020-08-16T12:09:09
Scraped2020-12-20T20:18:04
Articles13
Comments1,104
Users201

Articles

Comments

91013 dpj, replying to dpj, 58, #1 of 1104 🔗

I’m first then
My church is starting back next Sunday and was supposed to have a dress rehearsal today. I would normally be helping on Sound desk but after reading the ridiculous list of rules we have to go by (including mandatory mask wearing anywhere in building) I have said I will not be back for the forseeable future.
Like in Communist countries if we want to have a proper service with music etc I guess we have to meet in secret now.

91023 ▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to dpj, 13, #3 of 1104 🔗

Oh well done for being first. I read the entire page… should have gone straight to comments!

Sorry about the church. Awful. How about a protest service outside with taped music and singing? I’m sure people might join in and enjoy

91032 ▶▶ Mr Dee, replying to dpj, 21, #4 of 1104 🔗

Instead of acquiescing to all that superstition involving masks and other Satanic mumbo jumbo, why don’t you ask your priest simply to invoke the aid of St Roch – it’ll have more effect:

As a Christian pilgrim, Roch traveled to Rome and throughout Italy healing those suffering from an outbreak of the plague. At Piacenza he contracted the disease and withdraw to the countryside, where he drank water from a spring that miraculously arose from the ground; he was healed by a dog who licked his bulbous sores and brought him bread to sustain him. Living proof that one could survive the plague, St. Roch was often called upon by sufferers to relieve them of bubonic plague and other diseases.

91039 ▶▶▶ Jonathan Smith, replying to Mr Dee, 40, #5 of 1104 🔗

Good idea. I tell those who enquire about my lack of mask that I carry a rabbits foot instead. I tell them it’s essentially the same thing.

91197 ▶▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Jonathan Smith, 5, #6 of 1104 🔗

How about garlic and a crucifix?

91061 ▶▶ annie, replying to dpj, 14, #8 of 1104 🔗

Verily and indeed, house groups under cover of darkness. Trye Christians keeping the faith.
Not for the first time.

91078 ▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to annie, 19, #9 of 1104 🔗

Indeed we could go back to having Priest Holes and hiding the clergy from the bedwetting mask wearers ! 😁 Who would have thought a conservative government (small c) would destroy everything we have ever known?

91097 ▶▶▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to Bella Donna, 10, #10 of 1104 🔗

Trouble is, it seems the congregations need to hide from the priests!

91391 ▶▶▶▶▶ Rowan, replying to Nick Rose, 4, #11 of 1104 🔗

Indeed you are right. It seems that clergymen have bent over backwards to go along with the “official” Covid nonsense. Darker days are coming.

91610 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Rowan, 1, #12 of 1104 🔗

TPTB probably have dirt on some church higher-ups.

91109 ▶▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Bella Donna, 4, #13 of 1104 🔗

Me.:-)

91190 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Bella Donna, 14, #14 of 1104 🔗

It isn’t a conservative government, it’s a “Conservative” government. The difference has been clear for a long time, in fact Peter Hitchens has written books about it, but there should be no room for any doubt in any honest person’s mind after the events of this year.

91260 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Bella Donna, 4, #15 of 1104 🔗

I’d leave the bedwetting clergy thoroughly exposed!

91096 ▶▶ Basileus, replying to dpj, 22, #16 of 1104 🔗

I preached in our church today, but because the preacher was required to wear a mask, I recorded my sermon to be played to the congregation. No, I won’t go to a service while it continues to be a ‘state church’. This is not China.

91154 ▶▶▶ Moomin, replying to Basileus, 3, #17 of 1104 🔗

Preachers aren’t required to wear masks according to the guidelines.

91279 ▶▶▶▶ Basileus, replying to Moomin, 3, #18 of 1104 🔗

I agree, but ours seems to have adopted that practice.

91392 ▶▶▶▶▶ Rowan, replying to Basileus, 2, #19 of 1104 🔗

The clergy apparently have plenty to hide.

91344 ▶▶▶▶ RichardJames, replying to Moomin, 16, #20 of 1104 🔗

It’s not the first time that people in the UK have been in the habit of “gold-plating” the rules. Been happening for years with EU rules.

91278 ▶▶▶ Basileus, replying to Basileus, 11, #21 of 1104 🔗

Further to this some may be interested in this discussion of the issues of Church and State as conducted by me and Steve Layfield. We wonder how many realise that the freedoms we enjoy in this country as essentially due to Christians throughout the last few hundred years insisting that the authority of the state is not absolute, but is subject to the Sovereignty of God? In my view the Christian Church owes our society an apology for not keeping these truths sufficiently to the fore.

https://www.bitchute.com/video/FN2Tv6RsC64x/

91115 ▶▶ Drummerman, replying to dpj, 13, #22 of 1104 🔗

Just back from church. Went for the first time since the lockdown begun. Had to give my name and phone number at the door and was asked if I ‘had a mask’ by the data collector. When I said I was exempt he said “Oh, great! I’ve never met someone who’s exempt! Good for you!’. Inside, the congregation were socially distanced, i.e. every other pew empty and a maximum of 3 people per occupied pew. No handshake of peace. No singing. But other than that, normal. The order of service was jigged around and communion – the host only – was given at the end as we filed out through the side door. Was it a great experience? Not entirely, because the congregation was small and, except for me, masked. But it wasn’t bad. I give it 7/10, in the circumstances.

91159 ▶▶▶ Two-Six, replying to Drummerman, 26, #23 of 1104 🔗

I don’t understand how Christians do not see the EVIL that is being perpetrated on us. I am not a religious person at all but I got a very strong sense of an evil spell being cast over the world. Almost tangible. Palpable EVIL.

I just don’t get it, why can’t Christians see this? Isn’t this what they are all supposed to be looking for and fighting against?

Moreover, there is a strong evidence to point to the idea that the Corona Virus Project is actually a venture driven literally by Satanism and the cult worship of BAAL. DOn’t forget the gateway of BALL’s temple being toured around the world just before the Corona Project was launched.

The masks are apparently a very strong occultic ritual particularly associated with this cult. I don’t know too much about this masking/BAAL link but I am hearing about it. I am not sure if want to know more.

Call me crazy if you like.

91174 ▶▶▶▶ PWL, replying to Two-Six, -3, #24 of 1104 🔗

Christians think that Government is ordained by God. But Christianity does not reflect the son of man principles of Yeshua.
https://lockdownsceptics.org/2020/08/16/latest-news-105/#comment-91172

91264 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to PWL, 5, #25 of 1104 🔗

Yeshua said you don’t need priests.
Go and worship from your local park bandstand. I bet people would come and join in the hymns!

91236 ▶▶▶▶ Drummerman, replying to Two-Six, 6, #26 of 1104 🔗

I certainly won’t call you crazy, Two-Six … There’s so much happening, and so many possible interconnections and links you can draw, that it feels to me as if anything is possible.

Re your comment about Christians not seeing evil being perpetrated, I have to say that I don’t think that any belief system can insulate – or inoculate – someone from being swept along by the never-ending and relentless waves of propaganda emanating from government(s) and media (of all kinds). Christians or secularists, whatever you are, this is a tough time to make sense of.

91345 ▶▶▶▶ RichardJames, replying to Two-Six, 6, #27 of 1104 🔗

The masking is definitely an occultic symbol of “silencing” us.

91359 ▶▶▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to RichardJames, 7, #28 of 1104 🔗

Let’s ‘sacrifice’ some politicians to ward off the evil spirits.

91372 ▶▶▶▶ Mr Dee, replying to Two-Six, 12, #29 of 1104 🔗

I certainly see this as a war on two fronts – in the material world, of politics and economy, and in the spiritual world.

For me, the most important thing in all this is how we, as human beings, react and behave to this strange situation we find ourselves in, and how we treat our fellow humans – whether be-masked or not, whether Fear-ridden or Free.

By the simple act of resistance, and by being courageous enough to be free-thinking, and by following where the often unwelcome path of truth leads us, we are being true to ourselves and true to humanity.

We might never see the outcome of our actions, but the important thing is to pass our ideals to those who go after us. That is our victory.

91447 ▶▶▶▶ Rowan, replying to Two-Six, 10, #30 of 1104 🔗

You are not remotely crazy and you very right to trust your instincts. Nothing that comes from “officialdom”, in regard to Covid-19 stands up to even the slightest bit of real scrutiny and the whole business literally stinks of an epic scam.

Obviously what is going on, is of a huge scale, though seems to be just part of a much bigger technocratic agenda. The central aim of this almighty scam seems to be centred around an enormous reduction of the global population.

Covid-19 vaccines will likely be the means of carrying out this massive cull and as such are to be avoided at all costs. Once vaccinated, it will of course be too late.

It is difficult to see a way out of this incredibly dark situation, with the dumbed down masses seemingly being incapable of waking up.

91659 ▶▶▶▶ Basileus, replying to Two-Six, 7, #31 of 1104 🔗

You are right. The majority of Christians have lost the plot and many churches have become temples of mystery religion. We have let down our society and the consequences are all around us now. Christians need to recall that Jesus’ plan is to build a kingdom which is not like the kingdoms of the world. But it is in the world, so we pray, ‘Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as in heaven.”

91977 ▶▶▶▶ sarnskeptic, replying to Two-Six, #32 of 1104 🔗

We can. Almost all the priests and faithful I know recognise the evil and the danger. But I’m a “Traditional Catholic” and we’re a very small minority within the Church so I can’t speak for the majority. unfortunately our bishops have lost their faith and there are plenty of snitches in congregations who will turn us in to the authorities (and have done in some places).

91161 ▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Drummerman, 3, #33 of 1104 🔗

I would have to give it a miss.

91243 ▶▶▶▶ Drummerman, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, #34 of 1104 🔗

I had thought that might be how I felt, MiriamW. I went expecting to be disappointed (I also went because virtual services really didn’t do it for me; plus, honestly, I was curious as to what I would see). But I found it felt good to be able to think about things other than the virus for a short while.

91263 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Drummerman, 2, #35 of 1104 🔗

You call that normal?

91326 ▶▶▶▶ Drummerman, replying to Cheezilla, 4, #36 of 1104 🔗

No, I don’t. Which is why I wrote ‘other than that, normal’. And was I happy? No. But I was able to attend a service and it was, other than the restrictions and limitations I listed, ‘normal’. I was able to go to church, celebrate the Feast of the Assumption and take communion in the company of others. And I was accepted without a mask.

91428 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Drummerman, #37 of 1104 🔗

Well let’s hope others follow your lead!

91406 ▶▶▶ Rowan, replying to Drummerman, 2, #38 of 1104 🔗

Good for you, not wearing a mask. However, judging from your excellent description, you do seem to have been very generous in your appraisal. Accordingly, I’ve felt obliged to reduce your score to 3/10.

91135 ▶▶ Fiat, replying to dpj, 4, #39 of 1104 🔗

Me, too. I’ll not be back until we are muzzle-free.

91461 ▶▶▶ Jonathan M, replying to Fiat, 2, #40 of 1104 🔗

As a Catholic I would attend Mass with a mask only if the Sunday Obligation is restored. Until then, I will “attend” live-streamed Masses.

91529 ▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Jonathan M, 9, #41 of 1104 🔗

My older son was supposed to be having his first communion this Corpus Christi. Clearly that didn’t happen. I’m now being asked whether I want him to do it in October under the bizarre set of new arrangements, or wait till next year. Since the Church has sold its soul for safety, I wonder if you can guess what my answer is?

At the same time, my aunt is a nun, whose convent is attached to a care home. The nuns (and the residents) can’t receive communion because nobody is allowed in or out and the usual chaplain lives off site. She’s very stoical about it, but you can imagine the distress caused to a woman in her 60s who became a nun in her early 50s.

I was semi-lapsed in any case, but I’m furious with the hierarchy for capitulating.

91146 ▶▶ Moomin, replying to dpj, 2, #42 of 1104 🔗

Yeah, I agree that this is the way things are going to have to go for the church. I’m quite involved in our local church, not meeting yet, but I would have done exactly the same as you. You’re not alone.

91148 ▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to dpj, 17, #43 of 1104 🔗

Absolutely agree. I’m the organist, so redundant. I could go and sit in the congregation but I cannot bear to sit with the muzzled fearful. Whatever happened to ‘fear not’?

91273 ▶▶▶ Thinkaboutit, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 8, #44 of 1104 🔗

Youd think Christians, of all people, would be sanguine about the risk of reaching eternal life.

91354 ▶▶▶▶ RichardJames, replying to Thinkaboutit, 16, #45 of 1104 🔗

Precisely. I caused chaos when I said “I am relying on the protection of God, and I need none other”.

The others looked at me with utter astonishment, like they had never seen anyone actually be willing to bet their life on what they purport to believe in the Bible.

I also take Vitamin D3 and C, but that not the point.

91376 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mr Dee, replying to RichardJames, 11, #46 of 1104 🔗

Brilliant. Well said.

I’m shocked at their response. I mean … what do they actually believe in? They cannot all just be hollow clanging bells.

My grandad always said : “There’s a difference between Christianity and Churchianity.”

91585 ▶▶▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to RichardJames, 4, #47 of 1104 🔗

Don’t forget 10 to 12 mg of Zinc.
I just bought a new supply of D3 and C today.

91366 ▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 2, #48 of 1104 🔗

Up in your loft? Where’s the danger? Ridiculous.

91443 ▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to richard riewer, 2, #49 of 1104 🔗

Ha-ha! 🙂 As it happens, there’s plenty of danger up in my loft. It’s so rickety, steep and old, I practically have to rope up to get up and down! I used to joke that they’d need to save up for a Stannah stair-lift if they want me to keep on playing into (really) old age. As it is, I suppose I could play some tunes before and after the service but, as I said, I just can’t face the zombie assembly. I miss playing though; 🙁

91825 ▶▶▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, #50 of 1104 🔗

When I first made my comment I wasn’t sure if you were playing in a loft or down below in front of the congregation. Now it appears that you are up among the rafters. Your church should bring in someone to check the floorboards and the solidity of the area where you play.

91566 ▶▶▶ djc, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 2, #51 of 1104 🔗

‘and Death shall have no dominion,’!

91172 ▶▶ PWL, replying to dpj, #52 of 1104 🔗

“All the presidents of the kingdom, the governors, and the princes, the counsellors, and the captains, have consulted together to establish a royal statute, and to make a firm decree, that whosoever shall ask a petition of any God or man for thirty days, save of thee, O king, he shall be cast into the den of lions.”

http://www.frombehindenemylines.co.uk/the-greatest-lie-ever-told-mystery-school-christianity/

91238 ▶▶▶ Two-Six, replying to PWL, #53 of 1104 🔗

Hummm interesting

91285 ▶▶▶ Basileus, replying to PWL, 4, #54 of 1104 🔗

‘Dare to be a Daniel, dare to stand alone’.

91432 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Basileus, #55 of 1104 🔗

All hail to Toby’s band!

91208 ▶▶ davews, replying to dpj, 7, #56 of 1104 🔗

Our church is also starting back next Sunday, maybe a one off at the moment. I have already said I disagree with most of the rigmarole and will be using my mask exemption. Must have worked as I have been asked to do the bible reading. I note that the Methodist Church, already including the full mask exemption rules in its guidance, has now updated it to say worship leaders also don’t need to wear them. Mixed views but will see how it goes, I can always refuse the next time.

91255 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to dpj, 2, #57 of 1104 🔗

That’s how the Church began. Sounds like time to go back to its roots!

91339 ▶▶ RichardJames, replying to dpj, 5, #58 of 1104 🔗

Same here. I told the others in the church that I wouldn’t be returning unless face nappies weren’t enforced, and that any silencing of singing was purely satanic.

There comes a time when you have got to oppose the obvious agenda. The problem is that far too many of our acquaintances would not only line up on the platform in front of the cattle trucks, but would bolt the door behind themselves.

Luke 22:36: He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.”

91466 ▶▶▶ Jonathan M, replying to RichardJames, 1, #59 of 1104 🔗

Mmm – agree about the face nappies, but I’m not sure that “silencing of singing” was purely satanic! In my time I’ve been subjected to church “singing” which has been devilishly awful….

91616 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Jonathan M, 1, #60 of 1104 🔗

If you join in wholeheartedly you can’t hear the others!

91561 ▶▶ djc, replying to dpj, 5, #61 of 1104 🔗

Yes, ridiculous rules, not as if churches are packed like sardines every Sunday.
I am a bellringer, would normally be ringing for evensong now; I don’t like letting down the band, nor the village and its church, but I am not playing the Government’s game, nor that of church leaders who have gone out of their way to acquiesce with every ‘guideline’.

91590 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to dpj, 5, #62 of 1104 🔗

Best time to resurrect the DIY house churches that the early Christians had. You can do the whole shebang – music, singing, prayer and proper bread and wine plus a meal afterwards.

91019 AMZ, replying to AMZ, 31, #63 of 1104 🔗

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

This article has made me so mad, angry and pissed off. What the hell did the commissioner of the metropolitan police think was going to happen she she told people to shame and challenge people who don’t wear masks on radio!!!

91025 ▶▶ Mr Dee, replying to AMZ, 30, #64 of 1104 🔗

“One man said to me, ‘If you can’t wear a mask, you shouldn’t be allowed out.’”

Disgusting.

91038 ▶▶▶ Laura Suckling, replying to Mr Dee, 30, #65 of 1104 🔗

Maybe, if you are too frightened to go out without a mask, you should stay in. Do they really think a virus that escaped from a grade 4 containment lab is going to be stopped by a disposable mask?

91056 ▶▶▶▶ Mr Dee, replying to Laura Suckling, 23, #66 of 1104 🔗

That’s what my wife said. And she also said if anyone spoke to her like that she’d punch them.

91081 ▶▶▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Mr Dee, 9, #67 of 1104 🔗

Me too.

91212 ▶▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Laura Suckling, 13, #68 of 1104 🔗

The best comment to date. Every newspaper, tv news, minister, police commissioner, ad infinitum, should be asked this question:

Why do/did you think a virus that escaped from a grade 4 containment lab is/was going to be stopped by a disposable mask?

A very astute, basic journalistic question. Succinct and to the point. It is time for them to be shamed, not us. And shame them we must.

91638 ▶▶▶▶ Alison9, replying to Laura Suckling, 1, #69 of 1104 🔗

Thats spot on.

91080 ▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Mr Dee, 9, #70 of 1104 🔗

I hope you told him to Foxtrot Oscar!

91467 ▶▶▶▶ Jonathan M, replying to Bella Donna, 2, #71 of 1104 🔗

Foxtrot Romeo Oscar, preferably!

91089 ▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Mr Dee, 5, #72 of 1104 🔗

That seems almost to be a mask-Nazi meme these days. Ignore the bastards.

91100 ▶▶▶ Sam Vimes, replying to Mr Dee, 31, #73 of 1104 🔗

“You wear the mask to protect others” – official advice. So, if you really want to wear a mask, you must think you have the virus? If so, YOU should be the one to stay home.

Oh and you are a fuckwit.

91127 ▶▶▶▶ Cristi.Neagu, replying to Sam Vimes, 44, #74 of 1104 🔗

The “you must wear a mask to protect others” message is meant to turn people against eachother. If wearing a mask was for your own protection, no one would care if you wore one or not. It’s your risk. But if it’s about the protection of others, well… now others think you want to kill them if you don’t wear a mask. They turned it into a direct threat to other people’s lives, and so the people police themselves. Keeps them from uniting against the government.

All basic stuff. Divide and conquer.

91137 ▶▶▶▶▶ TJS123, replying to Cristi.Neagu, 34, #75 of 1104 🔗

If the masks only work one way, and don’t protect you from other people, then the simple answer surely is for the worried people just to wear theirs the other way round!

91139 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Fiat, replying to TJS123, 9, #76 of 1104 🔗

Brilliant!

91202 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to TJS123, 12, #77 of 1104 🔗

Actually some people (including Rishi Sunak) have been wearing dust masks with a valve to make it easier to breathe out.

There was some amusing scaremongering in the Guardian or somewhere about how the valve created a concentrated jet of virus that could zap anyone at a distance of several metres.

91565 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ bluefreddy, replying to TJS123, 2, #78 of 1104 🔗

After a depressing day in my shop having to deal with faceless people and with my takings down by 50% because of the lack of tourists, this made me laugh out loud for some time. Thank you! So simple and so obvious!!

91599 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to TJS123, #79 of 1104 🔗

Brilliant.

Or better yet wear two masks – one in the front another at the back.

91164 ▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Sam Vimes, 1, #80 of 1104 🔗

I like that – perfect logic, Sam.

91307 ▶▶▶▶ Jane, replying to Sam Vimes, 3, #81 of 1104 🔗

So if you have tested negative no need to wear the mask The best argument yet for getting tested.
The rationale for mask wearing is the dreaded presymptomatic / asymptomatic infectiousness—which I believe no one has been able to demonstrate. That is, whether there is such a thing. So the default position is that everyone carries the virus even if they test negative or have already had it an hence have immunity.

Now they are trying to downgrade the quality of the immunity you would have from actually being ill with covid-19 or from having unknowingly fended it off via T-cells.

It’s all heads I win, tails you lose. That is the logical paradigm in operation.

Oh, and don’t forget Trump!! The always available go-to argument, or argument ender. It’s all about Trump and if you question anything you are a Trump supporter!!

Trump is the best excuse that has come along yet to justify abandoning any pretense at debate and doing so with a self-righteous tone.

91506 ▶▶▶▶ Alan P, replying to Sam Vimes, 2, #82 of 1104 🔗

Aren’t we all missing the point that the logic of wearing a mask is not consistent? I.e when you enter a restaurant masked you’re protected; sit down at a table without the mask and *bingo* you’re equally protected….! WTF. Can anyone follow that?

91143 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Mr Dee, 1, #83 of 1104 🔗

Did you punch him ?

91084 ▶▶ Two-Six, replying to AMZ, 14, #84 of 1104 🔗

At least the bastard Guardian is writing about this finally. About time. Didn’t the Asthma Association say something really dodgey about face masks as they are all paid up by big pharma?

91094 ▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Two-Six, 11, #85 of 1104 🔗

This story has been doing the rounds for a while (it is dated 1 August) and in my opinion it’s fear porn by the Graun, actually designed to encourage mask compliance. Asthma Co UK is a private company and several of us have pointed out in previous posts its big pharma partners. Their stance on masks does not support asthma sufferers.

91165 ▶▶▶▶ Two-Six, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 1, #86 of 1104 🔗

thats what I was thinking about.

91477 ▶▶▶▶ ConstantBees, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 4, #87 of 1104 🔗

Actually I read that article in the Guardian when it was first published. I was using a snood on the bus for minimal compliance, even though I have asthma (very well-controlled until I started wearing a face covering).

Anyway, the way that people were being treated made me so angry that I got an exemption card and stopped wearing the snood. I’m big enough (well, 5 foot 7) and mean enough (when provoked) that anyone who harasses me will live to regret it. So the article was of some use to someone.

91489 ▶▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to ConstantBees, 2, #88 of 1104 🔗

Fair enough – it worked well for you and I’m really glad that you are now able to go bare-faced. 🙂 Sadly,though, I’m sure it will have frightened some people into compliance and, given the Graun’s track-record, it is likely to have been the intention.

91107 ▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to AMZ, 26, #89 of 1104 🔗

Also from the Guardian/Observer:

Two million viable jobs will be needlessly lost under the government’s plan to end its flagship jobs support scheme, Boris Johnson is being warned on Sunday, amid cross-party demands for further emergency help.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/aug/16/end-of-uk-furlough-scheme-means-needless-loss-of-2-million-jobs

For some reason we can’t comment on this article about the looming end of the furlough scheme. But it really needs to be pointed out to the Guardian that the jobs will be “needlessly lost” thanks to the lockdown , called for and endorsed by the Guardian (not alone in that of course), not by the end of the furlough scheme.

91357 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Nick Rose, 3, #90 of 1104 🔗

How long do they think the support scheme should last? Forever I suppose. In which case one could ask why anyone works at all really.

91360 ▶▶▶▶ RichardJames, replying to Julian, 1, #91 of 1104 🔗

I used to refer to them as the “Free Shit Army”

91479 ▶▶▶ ConstantBees, replying to Nick Rose, 3, #92 of 1104 🔗

The Guardian has slowly cut the number of articles the can be commented on. Now it’s rare to find a coronavirus-related one that actually allows comments. Too many people like me pointing out reality.

91653 ▶▶▶▶ Alison9, replying to ConstantBees, #93 of 1104 🔗

I’d be inclined to just comment wherever you can, referring to articles that have the comments switched off.

91031 Country Mumkin, replying to Country Mumkin, 33, #94 of 1104 🔗

The Hancock PHE thing is a joke… really wtf?

Stickers are AMAZING

Please can we have the artwork for stickers Sir Sceptic of Week so we can all print our own through Vista print or wherever.

I will print some and do an accompanying letter and deliver some locally too.

I also have an action I’ve taken to write to 10 local hairdressers about the wonderful Vicky… who is leading by example and has told the local councils to shove it with their visors and masks.

https://mobile.twitter.com/vickyintheuk/status/1279468054267793410

I believe hairdressers could be really important in the change of behaviour. They do not want to wear masks and visors.

I also believe it’s behaviour change as opposed to attitude change that we may have to go for first.

So stickers and letters here I come! Hope we can all do the same x x x

91057 ▶▶ Quernus, replying to Country Mumkin, 7, #95 of 1104 🔗

I was just about to ask the same question!! I’ve already had stickers and badges printed ‘Awake’ on them and have been distributing to everyone i chat to who knows what’s going on. I’d very happily print these out and take them to our local shops!

91067 ▶▶▶ Two-Six, replying to Quernus, #96 of 1104 🔗

Where is a good place to get stickers printed?

91075 ▶▶▶▶ Hoppity, replying to Two-Six, #97 of 1104 🔗

Vistaprint?

91113 ▶▶▶▶ Quernus, replying to Two-Six, 1, #98 of 1104 🔗
91168 ▶▶▶▶▶ Two-Six, replying to Quernus, 2, #99 of 1104 🔗

cool thanks, looks perfect

91068 ▶▶▶ Hoppity, replying to Quernus, 2, #100 of 1104 🔗

Just right click, copy and paste into a word document. It works (just done it).

91070 ▶▶▶▶ Hoppity, replying to Hoppity, #101 of 1104 🔗

Or Paint, or whatever.

91077 ▶▶▶▶▶ Two-Six, replying to Hoppity, 4, #102 of 1104 🔗

I want to get some stickers done to stick on all the mental covid safe notices everywhere. One that has a face mask imogee with mental eyes with “INSANE” or MENTAL on it.

91112 ▶▶▶▶ Quernus, replying to Hoppity, #103 of 1104 🔗

I’ll certainly try that, thanks, but the resolution may not be high enough for a print job.

91082 ▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Quernus, 2, #104 of 1104 🔗

Well done!

91117 ▶▶ Sir Sceptic, replying to Country Mumkin, 7, #105 of 1104 🔗
91180 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Sir Sceptic, 2, #106 of 1104 🔗

Well done all !

My current thinking is sticky labels along the lines of

Masks on kids
=
child abuse

Thoughts ?

91266 ▶▶▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to JohnB, 7, #107 of 1104 🔗

Whilst I personally agree. Many do not. I am a member (observer only) of a Facebook group that is gunning for the the boycott of “unsafe school opening” in September. You would not believe what goes on in that group.

They want
Masks on kids, full PPE teachers, plastic screens, strict social distancing, sanitising at every possible opportunity, small bubbles of 15.

I agree with you, but yours is an opinion, like theirs. It will create a tug of war. “I’m right” “no I’m right” “you don’t care about kids safety, granny, blah blah”

How we take a stand, what we do, how we do it, needs to be carefully considered in my opinion otherwise it can fuel the opposition to be stronger in their resolve.

I do agree with you wholeheartedly. I have a 7 year old and it horrifies me to think of kids in masks. But it’s not how everyone thinks by a long shot and that’s is the problem…

91291 ▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Country Mumkin, 1, #108 of 1104 🔗

Ta CM. Exactly why I asked for thoughts, a further division of society is not exactly what we need right now.

However, I might still go ahead. It’s a clear, easily argued point, and might make a few more parents question what they are up to.

PLUS IT’S TRUE ! 🙂

91335 ▶▶▶▶▶ Marie R, replying to Country Mumkin, 3, #109 of 1104 🔗

I also joined this group, probably at your suggestion, and its heartening to read they hate boris and his merry gang just as much as yer average sceptic, but for precisely the opposite reasons…..5,000 taken off the death figures is an attempt to massage figures down, the cut off of 28 days to count as a covid death will miss all those who die of it after 28 days and so on. Some of the sentiments, honestly held I’m sure, are mind blowing, the number of children who will die, “lambs to the slaughter ” etc.
The Twitter thread Toby mentions in his round up about the 6 passengers is unbelievable…..it needs to be firmed up and presented like a report by someone with credibility

91421 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Marie R, #110 of 1104 🔗

However much they ‘hate Boris’, it doesn’t sound heartening if they want more and harder lock-downs which will further damage their children.

It might be worth reading that Twitter thread carefully as Toby seems to have got the wrong end of the stick about it.

91368 ▶▶▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Country Mumkin, #111 of 1104 🔗

Not everyone thinks about children. Children don’t exist in their lives.

91415 ▶▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Country Mumkin, 2, #112 of 1104 🔗

It’s important to remember that Facebook groups and other social media are patrolled by the 77th Brigade and other spooks. While I’m sure that there will be ‘real’ people on such groups winding each other up with ill-informed fear-mongering these people are by any definition mentally ill (brainwashed). If you think it does any good to be part of such groups (personally I think it’s a waste of effort) all you can do is point them real facts about the risks to/from children – they won’t want to hear it – and get on with your life.

I don’t have children at school but I fear very much for what’s in store for my 2 grandchildren aged 9 and 11. If I had a child I would be moving heaven and earth to keep them out of any school which makes them wear masks and to educate them at home. Not an easy option, I appreciate that but it’s easy to think that the Govt does not actually care about public education any more because there will be no jobs.

91420 ▶▶▶▶▶ stewart, replying to Country Mumkin, 6, #113 of 1104 🔗

The effect of putting masks on children for entire school days is unknown. On that we can all agree. However, it is quite conceivable that it is harmful. The way we could find out is by conducting research on the matter.

Here is what the NSCCP has to say about conducting research that involves children:

https://learning.nspcc.org.uk/research-resources/briefings/research-with-children-ethics-safety-avoiding-harm

Forcing all children in England to wear masks without knowing whether it might be harmful would be equivalent to conducting a massive research experiment. This would violate several of the guidelines set out by the NSPCC.

That’s a line of argument that could be used.

Or we could just demand that we all apply some f*cking common sense and stop pandering to the hysterics.

91509 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to stewart, #114 of 1104 🔗

it is quite conceivable that it is harmful.

In the same way we can conceive that being whacked round the head with a 10lb salmon painted in purple and yellow stripes might be harmful. Would you also say that effect is unknown ?!

Not quite sure why you state it is conceivably harmful, stewart ?

91595 ▶▶▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Country Mumkin, 2, #115 of 1104 🔗

Every inch that you give them they will take a yard. Every time that you assent to another affront to your personal freedom you are giving them license to continue towards more extreme, further restrictions. Some of these people will never be satisfied, they will always strive to attain more power. Get in touch with Simon Dolan’s group, they might be able to help you take a stand that means something.

92141 ▶▶▶▶▶ Lucan Grey, replying to Country Mumkin, #116 of 1104 🔗

The solution is to say to those parents they don’t have to send their kids to school. But school will be available as normal.

That way jobs and futures will be available for the offspring of the non-hysterical.

Similarly if they can’t get to their jobs because of their school choices, then we put them on a default job at a bare living wage and free up their current job for somebody else.

Until the hysterical start paying a cost for their hysterics there is no incentive for them to get their beliefs under control.

It’s time to stop the appeasement of overly emotional reactions.

91261 ▶▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to Sir Sceptic, #117 of 1104 🔗

Thank you 😊

91280 ▶▶ Thinkaboutit, replying to Country Mumkin, 8, #118 of 1104 🔗

I’d happily go to an unmasked hairdresser. My one post lockdown hairdresser visit gave me the heebyjeebies. We need a register of underground hairdressers.

91288 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Thinkaboutit, 1, #119 of 1104 🔗

Me too, especially after I made a complete mess of my DIY haircut recently.

I noticed one hairdresser here actually spraying the outside of his shop (perhaps too many punters, while sitting outside before their appointments, had contaminated the brickwork).

91315 ▶▶▶▶ Thinkaboutit, replying to kh1485, 4, #120 of 1104 🔗

My hairdresser locked the doors. Surely better to have doors open and a free flow of air? You’d think they were doing open heart surgery the way they mask up.

91596 ▶▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to kh1485, #121 of 1104 🔗

Many years ago I knew an English fellow in Montreal who set up a salon in his apartment.

91365 ▶▶▶ RichardJames, replying to Thinkaboutit, 3, #122 of 1104 🔗

Mobile hairdressing is the way to go, now. My wife’s hairdresser comes every fortnight and does both of our families.

91422 ▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to RichardJames, 4, #123 of 1104 🔗

We’re getting a home visit from ours! 🙂 She hates masks and visors.

91597 ▶▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to RichardJames, #124 of 1104 🔗

Warren Beatty in ‘Shampoo’.

91958 ▶▶ Jonathan Castro, replying to Country Mumkin, #125 of 1104 🔗

What’s the betting the new rules for hairdressers were just made up because Boris doesn’t like them?

91034 stewart, replying to stewart, 15, #126 of 1104 🔗

National Institue for Health Protection instead of Public Health England. Yep, that’ll fix it. I can now relax knowing the government have figured out what went wrong and are finally on the right track.

91037 ▶▶ Mr Dee, replying to stewart, 9, #127 of 1104 🔗

I’ve heard, on good authority, that the person heading up the new institute will be the Witchsmeller Pursuivant:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYJZqJezjz4

91045 ▶▶▶ Mr Dee, replying to Mr Dee, 5, #128 of 1104 🔗

And the above video is an example of how NIHP is going to implement the track and trace system.

91064 ▶▶ annie, replying to stewart, 6, #129 of 1104 🔗

Hs.
Ha.
Ha.
Apparently the new sect of voodoo priests will deal with no health issues apart from scamdemics?

91041 Sophie123, replying to Sophie123, 61, #130 of 1104 🔗

Unfortunately, although the “pandemic” will undoubtedly be over within a few months in any reasonable person’s understanding of the word, the government and WHO won’t let it be. All the pharma companies they’ve co-opted into spending vast sums on vaccine development have all said they won’t make a profile “in the pandemic period”. So don’t expect the “pandemic” to be over until there are at least a couple of vaccines available. And the there will be a short period for appearances sake and the the lucky vaccine winners will be free to cash in.

Though given that a phase 3 study is going to struggle to complete given the diminishing presence of circulating virus hopefully everyone will have to give up and go home, and focus on fixing the economic shitshow they’ve engineered.

What a sorry mess of ignorance, greed, fear (not of the virus, but of losing power and face), virtue signalling and utter cowardice we have seen from our governments, (some) business leaders and public health bodies. And a complete absence of true leadership. It makes me feel sick.

91046 ▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to Sophie123, 33, #131 of 1104 🔗

Not sure it will be over in any reasonable persons understanding. They don’t seem to understand. They’re definitely not being reasonable.

That said I have sold lockdown skeptics to two fearful friends this week. What do I win? X

91149 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Country Mumkin, 8, #132 of 1104 🔗

An uptick.

91170 ▶▶▶▶ Two-Six, replying to JohnB, 3, #133 of 1104 🔗

A BOOST?

91193 ▶▶▶ ShropshireLass, replying to Country Mumkin, 6, #134 of 1104 🔗

A free trip to Sweden, perhaps?

91267 ▶▶▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to ShropshireLass, 3, #135 of 1104 🔗

One way ticket for my family. Best prize… x

91293 ▶▶▶ Eddie, replying to Country Mumkin, 2, #136 of 1104 🔗

I raise a SPIKE to you! 🙂

91134 ▶▶ Cristi.Neagu, replying to Sophie123, 19, #137 of 1104 🔗

This pandemic is not designed to be over. Entire cities and even countries closed because of a few extra positive tests, with no one in hospitals. Tests that seem designed to have a very high false positive rate. They won’t let this go. I have been saying for a few good months now that there will be another lockdown in september-november. They’ll probably ramp up tests to justify it.

91155 ▶▶ Silke David, replying to Sophie123, 9, #138 of 1104 🔗

The WHO has changed the definition of the word pandemic before to suit themselves, of course they will do it again.

91185 ▶▶ Edward, replying to Sophie123, 16, #139 of 1104 🔗

Exactly. How naive I was! Two months ago I was expecting that by this time daily UK deaths from (or with) coronavirus would be down to single figures – which they are – and therefore things would be getting back to normal – which they are not.

91502 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Edward, 2, #140 of 1104 🔗

Naive is not a big deal Edward. Indeed, it is good to trust, to a certain extent.

You have used your brain, come to a more accurate conclusion, and are involved in the struggle. Unlike the majority of our brothers & sisters, it would seem.

91633 ▶▶▶ Judith Day, replying to Edward, 1, #141 of 1104 🔗

There have been more deaths from ‘flu and pneumonia in the last 7 weeks than from C19.

91194 ▶▶ DressageRider, replying to Sophie123, 5, #142 of 1104 🔗

I love charts, and I like going to look at Worldometer. It seems to me that the daily cases have just done a double top (a sell signal if you follow stock market charts, ie a decline is expected) and the deaths, although rising, are only rising relatively slowly.

I maintain that, to me, it looks as though the world is at or very near peak virus.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

91371 ▶▶▶ TheBluePill, replying to DressageRider, 11, #143 of 1104 🔗

Last time I looked into my mother’s computer to help her out technically, I found an open Worldometers page for France – I am in France on holiday now. She had skipped the top metric, which shows that a whopping 100% (rounded to zero decimal places) of infections are classed as mild, because she didn’t understand it. She had also not scrolled down to the bottom chart showing practically zero deaths for weeks and weeks. Obviously I explained it all and it actually looked like something sank in. It was a great relief that somehow in her head, finally 2+2=4.
Then a couple of days later I got a phonecall – “you will be careful in France won’t you, there is a lot of covid there”. Felt like smashing my head into a brick wall repeatedly. These people, including my mother, seem to have their memory erased as soon as they turn on the 6 o’clock news.

91398 ▶▶▶▶ DressageRider, replying to TheBluePill, 1, #144 of 1104 🔗

My mother might be the same! Hope you are having a great holiday and staying away from all the infections, LOL.

91418 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to TheBluePill, 2, #145 of 1104 🔗

Yes, we are up against ongoing indoctrination reinforcement that is especially strong for anyone who watches mainstream tv.

91843 ▶▶▶ Rick08765, replying to DressageRider, 1, #146 of 1104 🔗

World figures aren’t really so relevant, while in the early stages it was “virus vs world”, since all the panic, reduction in travel and idiotic closure of borders it has become multiple contests of “virus vs nation”. Much of the world looks like it may have reached herd immunity, that happens at more like 20% than 60% according to a study ( https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.07.23.20160762v1 )which found that when immunity spreads following the virus rather than being randomly distributed ahead of the virus by vaccination, you get a threshold of 1-(1/R_0)^(1/(1+cv^2)) or 1-(1/R_0)^(1/(1+2cv^2)), not the usual 1-(1/R_0). Places like the americas are a bit further behind but should manage herd immunity soon. I pity for those trapepd in Kim Jong Dan’s Australian dictatorship, or “Saint” Jacinda’s Nazi-fied New Zealand, who will be in and out of lockdowns forever because their leaders were too foolish to embrace the effective natural solution to pandemics. Except for countries which locked down brutally hard and early, all of the nations will inevitably win these contests against the virus. Until sanity is retored to borders and interntional travel global figures for the virus won’t really mean much, the globe has been separated into portions, but peak virus has passed in Europe and should soon be over in the Americas. As long as countries don’t lock down the virus will not win.

91844 ▶▶▶ Rick08765, replying to DressageRider, 1, #147 of 1104 🔗

And in a subscript to my other post here, that other virus, authoritarianism, also won’t win, but this prevention of an “evil force’s” victory requires not only for countries to refuse to lock down, but for the people of any countries which do try it to immediately cease complying with their governments’ diktats.

91276 ▶▶ PastImperfect, replying to Sophie123, 4, #148 of 1104 🔗

They have been spending a lot of OUR money. Then we’ll have to pay for the stuff and if it disables people, we’ll have to pay again, as they will not be liable for any problems that the vaccines might cause. Pharma has no incentive to ensure that the stuff is safe.

91318 ▶▶▶ Sophie123, replying to PastImperfect, #149 of 1104 🔗

Not our money yet. Unless through CEPI or BARDA. But yes, you’re right – ultimately the tax payer will pay. AGAIN.

91601 ▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to PastImperfect, #150 of 1104 🔗

Pharma has no incentive to ensure that the stuff is safe.

Possibly, but we do.

91363 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Sophie123, 2, #151 of 1104 🔗

I can’t of any reason why the people pulling the levers will ever allow it to be over, if they can help it.

If we think it’s about selling a vaccine and you’re done I think we are being optimistic.

An indefinite global health state of emergency is the ideal mechanism to use to hang on to power – much more power than you have in normal times – and avoid scrutiny.

I don’t know if all the players in this have thought it through in quite this way, but I expect they know it instinctively.

91431 ▶▶ stewart, replying to Sophie123, 4, #152 of 1104 🔗

The pharma companies and WHO had a go at this 10 years ago. They obviously tweaked a few things and nailed it this time around.

https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/reconstruction-of-a-mass-hysteria-the-swine-flu-panic-of-2009-a-682613.html

91042 Country Mumkin, replying to Country Mumkin, 1, #153 of 1104 🔗

Oh dear, poor Putin. Speed to market has had disastrous consequence.

https://www.torontotoday.net/2020/08/15/vladimir-putins-daughter-dies-after-second-dose-of-covid-vaccine/

Caveat: I’m not an anti vaxxer…

91058 ▶▶ Mr Dee, replying to Country Mumkin, 3, #154 of 1104 🔗

Are you sure this is true? Can’t find any corroborating sources. If true, my condolences go out to him.

91063 ▶▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to Mr Dee, 1, #155 of 1104 🔗

Not I’m not sure. Awful if it is

91073 ▶▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to Mr Dee, 1, #156 of 1104 🔗

I should have cross checked. Will do that and remove if not found. Don’t like to share false info 🙂

91079 ▶▶ swedenborg, replying to Country Mumkin, #157 of 1104 🔗

https://tv.ua/news/933169-doch-putina-pogibla-v-dtp-smi

According to this Ukrania TV station I think they say she died in a car accident but better someone with knowledge reads it.Can be fake news from Canada

91085 ▶▶▶ swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 2, #158 of 1104 🔗

I am wrong Ukranian TV old date.But we should be very suspicous as this could be fake news.Surely this would leak quickly in Russia if this was true.

91218 ▶▶▶▶ guy153, replying to swedenborg, #159 of 1104 🔗

Also a different daughter. Maria Putin is still alive so it wasn’t her in the car crash anyway.

91272 ▶▶▶▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to guy153, 1, #160 of 1104 🔗

Sorry all… I will remove… 😊
Going a bit finger happy today. Must stop before send!

91281 ▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to Country Mumkin, #161 of 1104 🔗

Sorry… this comment of mine is not true and I can’t delete it. Apologies! Ignore…

91296 ▶▶ Eddie, replying to Country Mumkin, #162 of 1104 🔗

Whoever died it was unarguably caused by the virus

91742 ▶▶▶ nfw, replying to Eddie, #163 of 1104 🔗

That of course is true, regardless of the light pole in the windscreen, the gunshot to the back of the head (Arkansas suicide) or aliens with crop circles. Funny thing is I used to blame aliens for everything, but it seems 9 minutes just isn’t long enough any more.

91498 ▶▶ ConstantBees, replying to Country Mumkin, 1, #164 of 1104 🔗

I’m searching for confirmation as well and can’t find any. I wouldn’t be surprised if she had, considering that the vaccine was basically untested, but we’ll have to wait until someone actually confirms it.

91738 ▶▶ nfw, replying to Country Mumkin, #165 of 1104 🔗

What a load of rubbish.

91043 Ethelred the Unready, 4, #166 of 1104 🔗

He is certainly a complete cock, but not especially handy… 😁

91044 Aremen, replying to Aremen, 36, #167 of 1104 🔗

Re the “No Mask? We Won’t Ask” signs in today’s update (“A reader has produced this sticker, printed a ton of them and is handing them out to local shops. A surprising number are displaying them in their windows. Congratulations, Sir. You are my Sceptic of the Week.”). Toby, please can you add a new section, listing the shops which are displaying this sign, along with their rough location? It seems that giving our custom to these shops might be a trojan horse for getting some of our wider messages across.

91066 ▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to Aremen, 12, #168 of 1104 🔗

What a brilliant idea. A section on those displaying is fab 🙂

91500 ▶▶ ConstantBees, replying to Aremen, 1, #169 of 1104 🔗

Nice, although no shop has any business asking anyone about masks regardless. Exempt is exempt.

91047 arfurmo, replying to arfurmo, 3, #170 of 1104 🔗

French to muzzle inside offices https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-53797129 11.21 item.

“A theme that appears in all scientific opinions is the value of wearing [masks] when there are several people in a confined space,” Borne said in an interview with French newspaper Le Journal du Dimanche.” All scientific opinions -not one agin?

91076 ▶▶ annie, replying to arfurmo, 9, #171 of 1104 🔗

A nice bit of French scepticism.
Not.
If Flaubert were alive today, he’d have to re-write his dictionary of stupidity all over again from the beginning.

91374 ▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to annie, 1, #172 of 1104 🔗

Read Flaubert’s Bouvard & Pécuchet. Funny.

91305 ▶▶ Eddie, replying to arfurmo, 4, #173 of 1104 🔗

The company I used to work for (American owned, operating in Canada) has now instituted a mask policy. My poor buddy who’s still there is a skeptic and he told me the news on Friday. He says anywhere away from his desk he now has to mask up. OMG am I happy to be gone from there! This would have sent me packing anyway.

91327 ▶▶ Michel, replying to arfurmo, 4, #174 of 1104 🔗

Went into a bank last week to open an account. The usual posters hanging at the frontdoor that facemasks were mandatory and only one person at a time could get access to the bank. My wife and I entered without any comment and better yet, once inside the office, the bankmanager told us we could all get rid of the facemasks and behave normally 🙂 …this is France

91052 Aremen, replying to Aremen, #175 of 1104 🔗

Is there some kind of moderator here? I’ve been posting for weeks without trouble. Two or three days ago (the days blurr, as you all know, amidst this shit) I tried to add a graphic to my post. I had read that to do that you need to be logged in. I tried that. I assumed I would need to subscribe or have an account. When I tried that I was told I need a paasword. I set that up, but then was told that my username was already in use (yes, by me!). Failed to set up an account. Now my every post is “Awaiting for approval” for a good while. Any advice?

91181 ▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to Aremen, #176 of 1104 🔗

Try mailing Toby direct or Ian Rons (site webmaster): lockdownsceptics@castironsolutions.co.uk

91059 James Bertram, replying to James Bertram, 6, #177 of 1104 🔗

Appalling ill-informed article on Sir John Redwood’s Diary today – he doesn’t seem to have a clue. If anyone here wants to put him right on the facts, please do so.
I’ve added two comments to his site; one highlighting the Professor of Genetics article on Lockdown Sceptics today.

91062 ▶▶ James Bertram, replying to James Bertram, #178 of 1104 🔗
91092 ▶▶▶ Major Panic, replying to James Bertram, 14, #179 of 1104 🔗

I chucked in this comment:

What a shame you are unaware of the evidence based science that suggests the UK is close to herd immunity, before you made misleading comments.
The clue is in the tiny number of people needing ICU treatment for CV19 and the daily death curve (very similar in countries that both did and did not lockdown) being down near zero – its called herd immunity. Like King Canute could not hold back the tide our hapless government could not have stopped the spread of the virus. But they have been very successful at causing massive harm to our economy and killing many people the last few months (and many more into the future) by removing their hospital and health care.
Some suggested catch up reading – written by a competent scientist :-
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-real-covid-19-threat

91101 ▶▶▶▶ James Bertram, replying to Major Panic, 1, #180 of 1104 🔗

Excellent, Major P.
(but Note: he is the moderator, and tends to delay or not print comments with links; so on his site generally best to refer to articles by describing them such as ‘Carl Heneghans’ article in the Spectator’ rather than giving the link.
But some links do get printed – so good luck)

91102 ▶▶▶▶ T. Prince, replying to Major Panic, 2, #181 of 1104 🔗

Good one, be interesting if you get a response

91325 ▶▶▶▶▶ davews, replying to T. Prince, 1, #182 of 1104 🔗

I made a couple of comments there earlier, it seems there is a lot of opposition to masks, PCR results and viruses.

91369 ▶▶▶ Major Panic, replying to James Bertram, 1, #183 of 1104 🔗

Looks like Mr Redwood has let all our comments through…

I recognise the names of some of the other contributors

91677 ▶▶▶▶ James Bertram, replying to Major Panic, 1, #184 of 1104 🔗

Yes, thank you. Some good comments today. I hope this is one more MP, sand quite an influential one at that, who we have got to reconsider government policy, and the scientific evidence and arguments that circulate amongst the Westminster bubble.
Well done everyone.

91072 Hubes, replying to Hubes, 39, #185 of 1104 🔗

I bet a lot of people in England genuinely believe that if they go into a shop without a mask this will result in an immediate fine and some probably think it’s now for £3,200. This just sums up the laziness of most people. If they bothered to check the actual law, they realise everybody is exempt if they wanna be.

A person could say they nearly drowned when they were younger and now anything covering their nose and mouth causes them severe distress. You could make up any reason you wanted. I honestly don’t see how anybody who’s looked at the legislation and didn’t wanna wear a mask could ever get a fine.

I’m getting increasingly annoyed by anybody who wears a mask in a shop and when asked why says “because I have to”

91110 ▶▶ Sam Vimes, replying to Hubes, 12, #186 of 1104 🔗

I mentioned this earlier, on yesterday’s page. You are absolutely right, the plebs half-hear something in the news, then make the rest up themselves. Of course, the ‘idea’ or ‘guidance’ always comes out a few days before the actual law, in order to let this happen.
Anybody else notice the ‘guidance’ web pages never have a link to the actual legislation?

91130 ▶▶▶ Hubes, replying to Sam Vimes, 7, #187 of 1104 🔗

Plebs is the perfect word to describe them.
Yeah I’ve noticed that. I was gonna say it’s difficult to find the actual legislation for some things, but that’s not true. It’s takes a few minutes, 5 max, but most people can’t even be bothered with spending that much time finding out any information.

91114 ▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Hubes, 23, #188 of 1104 🔗

Yes, I think you’re right about people believing that £3200 is now the penalty for not wearing a mask. We met someone yesterday who’s been taken in. I think it’s classic ‘dog-whistling’ by the Government – feed it to the MSM and they’ll do the rest with shouty headlines. Arsebook & co will help. They know most people won’t bother to look behind the headlines and compliance and fear will increase.

New Mills, Derbyshire, yesterday was grim. Quite a few people on the main street, many muzzled including a couple of very young children. A man put his muzzle on just to walk past a few of us sitting outside a cafe, then took it off again once he was clear of us. Mentally ill.

However, at first the Coop seemed dire. We were the only unmuzzled but, as we loaded our bikes up outside, a young man walked in bare-faced and I noticed he was still the same at the till. A young woman was also at the till without one. Also, one man in a neckerchief and one with his t-shirt pulled up. The exemption announcement on the Tannoy is now loud and clear. Hooray!

We gave another exemption card out on Friday to a woman we met who gets claustrophobic in a mask. A restaurateur friend says Italy is much more sceptical and relaxed. She won’t wear a mask but hates the ‘looks’ she gets. We’ve decided to post a couple of Govt cards through her door.

91136 ▶▶▶ Hubes, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 10, #189 of 1104 🔗

Yep. Sadly most people get their news from arsebook, by reading a headline or 2nd hand from friends or family. I’ve never understood why most people will just believe whatever they are told.

91162 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Hubes, 7, #190 of 1104 🔗

Dim, unevolved, lazy, brainwashed, poorly educated, over-compliant, frightened, …

Take your pick. (I find it difficult to comprehend too.).

91176 ▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to JohnB, 8, #191 of 1104 🔗

They’re that stupid, you wonder how on earth they survived in the normal world.

91300 ▶▶▶▶ Sue, replying to Hubes, 6, #192 of 1104 🔗

you have to remember that most people’s intellect doesn’t stretch beyond ‘love island’ or eastenders!

91131 ▶▶ Drummerman, replying to Hubes, 12, #193 of 1104 🔗

Told my GP masks made me panicky and anxious. Like claustrophobia. Said I’d last experienced the feeling when I had to enter deep caves as part of being a Geology student (true). He wrote me an exemption letter.

91141 ▶▶▶ Hubes, replying to Drummerman, 13, #194 of 1104 🔗

That’s good they have done that, but I also can’t believe we are living in a country where you may need to show a note from your doctor to a policeman when you go out for some milk.

91158 ▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Hubes, 8, #195 of 1104 🔗

You don’t and it isn’t good. See Lucky’s post, above (and mine).

91210 ▶▶▶▶▶ Hubes, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 5, #196 of 1104 🔗

Yeah maybe good was the wrong word. You’re right a doctors note would lead to even more confusion.

Basically don’t wear a mask, if you’re asked say you’re exempt, if they then ask why tell them they are breaking the law and that they’ll be hearing from your lawyer on a discrimination and harassment charge.

91283 ▶▶▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to Hubes, 5, #197 of 1104 🔗

Or that you feel you should even though you don’t have to.

91151 ▶▶▶ Lucky, replying to Drummerman, 13, #198 of 1104 🔗

From the gov.uk website updated 14th August: (I put the relevant piece in bold). Most people would be unable to see their doctor in person anyway at the moment.

Exemption cards
 Those who have an age, health or disability reason for not wearing a face covering should not be routinely asked to give any written evidence of this, this includes exemption cards. No person needs to seek advice or request a letter from a medical professional about their reason for not wearing a face covering.
Some people may feel more comfortable showing something that says they do not have to wear a face covering. This could be in the form of an exemption card, badge or even a home-made sign.
This is a personal choice and is not necessary in law.

91156 ▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Drummerman, 16, #199 of 1104 🔗

Doctors were specifically told by the Government not to write mask exemption notes so your doctor was out of order doing that. Lucky’s post, below, spells out all that is necessary if you don’t wear a mask. If people start wrongly believing that you need a doctor’s note, this will just stoke up more fear and confusion.

91211 ▶▶▶▶ Paul B, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 4, #200 of 1104 🔗

I inquired about private physio as the NHS have abandoned me and asked up front what their mask policy was and if they recognize exceptions – I offered to wait outside rather than sit in the waiting room, they said ‘we look forward to seeing you once you have an exemption certificate’.

91219 ▶▶▶▶▶ Hubes, replying to Paul B, 9, #201 of 1104 🔗

Tell them there is currently no law that requires a mask to be worn at a physios and also that by refusing to see you they are breaking the law and could be prosecuted under the equality act.

They sound like complete arseholes.

91229 ▶▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Paul B, 8, #202 of 1104 🔗

There is no such thing. I would find another physio.

91203 ▶▶ ShropshireLass, replying to Hubes, 9, #203 of 1104 🔗

And STILL so many folk have no idea there are exemptions! Nor what the government website says about exemptions – including if masks would cause you harm – which covers all of us if we wore one for more than 6 minutes and didn’t follow strict hygiene and care instructions (which the vast majority of wearers don’t because they are ignorant of them or can’t be bothered). Plus folk confuse guidance with legislation – big difference!

91284 ▶▶ Thinkaboutit, replying to Hubes, 2, #204 of 1104 🔗

One acquaintance of mine thought you needed a doctor’s note to get an exemption.

91608 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Hubes, 2, #205 of 1104 🔗

Unfortunately a great many people are still afraid. My workplace is a classic example – trying to debate and engage with them is like trying to get blood out of a stone.

91083 NickR, replying to NickR, 15, #206 of 1104 🔗

Disband PHE, great, but all employees will just TUPE over to the new organisation, same people, same tasks, same result.

91121 ▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to NickR, 8, #207 of 1104 🔗

The problem really lies with PHE’s management. Who are probably all Common Purpose, the Secret Society of choice for the public sector.

91277 ▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Nick Rose, #208 of 1104 🔗

UK Column has been good on Coronovirus – but they get a bit obsessive about Common Purpose – which is a self-righteous/self-satisfied pain in the arse, like other competing establishment networks. But it is but one, like the Freemasons.

91126 ▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to NickR, 3, #209 of 1104 🔗

TUPE – that’s a can of worms but can be gotten around (I was looking at starting a “new business” out the ashes of an old one I would have bought out so had to research it and got advice from a specialist lawyer at the time.

If the other company or entity is shut down, finished, disbanded etc and a completely new entity start up then TUPE does not apply as it is not transfer of an existing business.

This goes for taking over pub tenancies as an example and has been agreed at tribunal – the old tenancy ends with the day the tenant leaves the premises. It is done, finished, kaput.

The new tenant is starting a complete new tenancy with the brewery/pub company/freehold owner and this is a completely new business with no connections to the old one so TUPE does not apply.

I’m sure Handjobs could screw it up though.

91230 ▶▶ richard riewer, replying to NickR, 1, #210 of 1104 🔗

Change the name but not the game.

91375 ▶▶ richard riewer, replying to NickR, #211 of 1104 🔗

Or one of the many Quangos.

91086 swedenborg, 4, #212 of 1104 🔗

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1386653211004732?via%3Dihub

In this old article from 20122 about our comon coronaviruses.

“HCoV-OC43 and HCoV-NL63 may elicit immunity that protects from subsequent HCoV-HKU1 and HCoV-229E infection, respectively, which would explain why HCoV-OC43 and HCoV-NL63 are the most frequently infecting HCoVs.”

 So there is evidence in earlier coronaviruses about cross protection.
Why not in SARS-Cov2?

91088 Basics, replying to Basics, 1, #213 of 1104 🔗

Manchester protest 22 Aug
https://www.standupx.info/

91361 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Basics, 3, #214 of 1104 🔗

How about this?

BOURNEMOUTH
Every Saturday, 2-5pm
We have full support from Police
Bournemouth Town Hall

Official protest!

91090 Mark, replying to Mark, 37, #215 of 1104 🔗

That “No mask? We won’t ask” sticker is tactically brilliant.

I reflexively recoil from the wokeist slogans and from the very idea that we should need a reason not to wear a mask beyond that we choose not to, but it uses woke “inclusive” and “safe space” nonsense brilliantly against the virtue signallers.

91099 ▶▶ Tom Blackburn, replying to Mark, 6, #216 of 1104 🔗

I’ve said it a million times before but we missed a trick not pragmatically co-opting BLM for our own ends.

91167 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Tom Blackburn, 8, #217 of 1104 🔗

BLM are beyond the Pale as far as I’m concerned. Promoting hatred and resentment against the indigenous race and nation, based on outright lies, is just too evil and too dangerous.

From my perspective, both BLM and coronapanickers are the Enemy. The latter more immediate, but the former are more dangerous long term. They are the road to cultural revolution and race wars.

91171 ▶▶▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to Mark, #218 of 1104 🔗

Was that opening sentence a pun or play on words?

91173 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Nick Rose, -1, #219 of 1104 🔗

I was aware of it, but it wasn’t designed as such.

91175 ▶▶▶▶ Nigel Sherratt, replying to Mark, 1, #220 of 1104 🔗

‘coronanists’ works I find

91201 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Nigel Sherratt, #221 of 1104 🔗

Horses for courses….

91234 ▶▶▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Nigel Sherratt, #222 of 1104 🔗

Maskurbation.

91237 ▶▶▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Nigel Sherratt, #223 of 1104 🔗

Or, maskturbation.

91364 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to richard riewer, #224 of 1104 🔗

maskpeturbation

91849 ▶▶▶▶▶ Rick08765, replying to Nigel Sherratt, #225 of 1104 🔗

Good one, for when “coronaphobes” doesn’t quite cover how much they are giving themselevs pleasure by pandering to the panicdemic.

91184 ▶▶▶▶ Tom Blackburn, replying to Mark, 1, #226 of 1104 🔗

You need to defeat opponents in the order they present themselves to you imo. Or else you end up in knots trying to play mystic meg like Boris, Fergie et al

91200 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Tom Blackburn, 3, #227 of 1104 🔗

Yes, but you also need to be selective in which devils you choose to ally with tactically, It’s not as though some kind of decisive alliance with the BLM scum was either on offer or would have been somehow decisive in overturning the coronapanic anyway.

To the extent they were ever likely to damage the coronapanic, they did it anyway for their own reasons by holding mass demonstrations at just the right time to discredit lockdown.

91259 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Tom Blackburn, replying to Mark, 1, #228 of 1104 🔗

Fair enough. Disagree about being able to achieve a decisive alliance however. At ANY point in time, this charade ends when enough people take to the streets. The Po Po – as we’ve seen – are less than useless (which is good)

91411 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Tom Blackburn, #229 of 1104 🔗

Disagreement on tactics is fine, obviously.

But what did we have to offer to them anyway, that would make them take our side, if they weren’t already sceptical? If it’s just a matter of educating them, I feel that would come much better from leftist-based sceptic groups (there must be some out there) that are more enthusiastic generally about taking the knee to manipulative minority lobby group scumbags.

91195 ▶▶▶▶ Jonathan Palmer, replying to Mark, 4, #230 of 1104 🔗

BLM are a form of sanctioned protest.The last time they were active was 2016 an USA election year.2020 is an USA election year.
The only reason they crossed the Atlantic this time was due to lockdown and the curious atmosphere at the time.They served a useful diversion at the time.If MR Trump loses the election you will find their corporate and NGO backers will quietly withdraw their funding.

91223 ▶▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Jonathan Palmer, 2, #231 of 1104 🔗

The protests mystically stopped when BLM started tweeting support for Palestine.

91231 ▶▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Mark, #232 of 1104 🔗

Coronaphobes.

91169 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Tom Blackburn, #233 of 1104 🔗

They would not have played ball. Mr Soros would not have permitted it.

91256 ▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Tom Blackburn, 3, #234 of 1104 🔗

The saying “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” only goes so far before you get screwed.

To your own self be true.

91362 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Awkward Git, #235 of 1104 🔗

I agree. I’d hate to get tarred with that brush!

91848 ▶▶▶ Rick08765, replying to Tom Blackburn, #236 of 1104 🔗

We need to get sed to the idea of phrasing our anti-lockdown arguments to match listener’s views:
I tell communists I know that “lockdown is a conspiracy by big business to make more inflated profits and aid tax evasion”, I tell capitalists I know that “lockdown is orchestrated by communists bent on driving every business out of existance so the state can take control”. I have arguments lined up for people of every persuasion to get them round to agreeing that lockdown was a crime against humanity (note, for right wing traditionalists you expand “crime against humanity” with “violations of ancient magna carta rights”, for left-wing emotives you discuss “discriminatory assaults on the human rights of minorities”).

Co-opting BLM at its height would have been good, “black jobs matter, black businesses matter, now end this barbaric lockdown and let blacks and whites get back to living”. We could perhaps do a good job co-opting some of the NHS protesta for pay rises, maybe turn up with a banner saying “you shoudln’t have locked the country down, you bastards, now put our pay up”. The media might find it pretty hard to contest against what looks to be NHS workers opposed to the lockdowns.

91147 ▶▶ Fed up, replying to Mark, 2, #237 of 1104 🔗

Yes we need to co-opt the right-speak.

91091 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 9, #238 of 1104 🔗

https://www.dropbox.com/s/72hi9jfcqfct1n9/Haaretz-20Jul20_ENGLISH%2012082020%20v3.pdf?dl=0

https://www.covibes.org/public/Israel

Posted Levitt’s important, easy to read article again about the current situation in Israel and what they are trying to achieve. Below the link to the epidemic curve for Israel.
I think they are trying to achieve, as safely as possible, reaching quickly herd immunity and that they are on their way. The CFR is dropping and approaching IFR. This is not a second wave but a repressed first wave and then a deliberate attempt to reach herd immunity therefore the two headed curve.
Try to summarize crudely what they did. Nethanyanou is a paranoid lockdown fanatic using secret service as tracers. A very strong, even brutal, lockdown from the beginning. Look at the first curve.

Excellent result (In fact compare to NZ same time low number cases low number of deaths) but Israel is not an isolated island and had later rampaging C-19 outbreaks in their neighbours i.e. Egypt which just let it rip through. But all these neighbouring pandemics came after April as the Israel outbreak was of Europe US origin in March.

The lockdown fanatic ruined the economy and in May he opened up including all the schools, Universities etc. There are rumours that he did that with not much social distancing in place as Orthodox Jewish pupils would not abide much with social distancing. Everything seemed fine.

Naturally C-19 crept in from the neighbouring countries and then the explosion in numbers in June. Schools had outbreaks. The lockdown fanatic was now on a leash and intelligent people were advising. There were some smaller scale social distancing measures but all schools remained open (although some closed with outbreaks) and a temporary ban on bars etc was scrapped. There was not a ruinous lockdown again. Look at the numbers. Rapid increase, much bigger than previous spike. But deaths not more than in the first spike. Younger people infected. Elderly seems protected. And both teachers and pupils have actually lower rate of infections than the population in general.

Israel has a younger population and excellent health care and might protect elderly more efficient. And they seem now to have intelligent people ( Levitt et al) holding the lockdown fanatic in a leash. A very interesting way of handling the pandemic.

Perhaps Israel’s lockdown was more effective than Europe (but lockdown never solve the problems as C-19 creeps in anyway). In Europe, lockdowns were not even effective in most countries as the pandemic was already in full swing. In practice C-19 rampaged through quite unhindered. Perhaps this is a silver lining. In Europe the current increase in cases are just a bit activity in the end of the pandemic affecting only parts of European territories (speaking of true cases not the false inflated numbers due to mass testing etc)

91377 ▶▶ richard riewer, replying to swedenborg, 1, #239 of 1104 🔗

Netan Yahoo.

91407 ▶▶ Commander Jameson, replying to swedenborg, 2, #240 of 1104 🔗

Thing is, Israel is more or less an isolated island. There isn’t a lot of movement of people between it and the two neighbours it has “open” borders with. Israelis will drive to Taba or visit Petra, but not much traffic in the other direction.

91419 ▶▶▶ swedenborg, replying to Commander Jameson, #241 of 1104 🔗

Landborders are still very difficult to seal off.Palestine territory has C-19 epidemic and impossible to seal off Israel as an island nation.You can never seal off a virus in the end but it has been massive outbreaks in the Middle east.Problem was that the Israel outbreak in March connected with New York.When the first wave was over the lockdown fanatic thought he had won only to recognize that virus never respect borders and will alays sneek in as it did early June.

91446 ▶▶▶▶ Commander Jameson, replying to swedenborg, #242 of 1104 🔗

Seriously, Israel has one of the tightest and most effective border security regimes in the world. How often have you been there?

The West Bank Palestinian territories are for practical purposes integral to Israel, in that it doesn’t have a “Palestinian” airport or any way in or out that isn’t under Israeli control. As for Gaza, it is such a truly horrendous, monstrous PIA to travel between Israel and Gaza these days that almost no one does. It’s negligible as a source of infection in Israel.

91504 ▶▶▶▶▶ swedenborg, replying to Commander Jameson, #243 of 1104 🔗

I have never been there and will never go there.Land borders can never be sealed off for a virus.Diplomatical persons,UN diplomats and certain specific essential staff will slip through.Impossible to stop a respiratory virus.Never happened before in world history.Delusion to think we can stop it.

91093 Albie, replying to Albie, 17, #244 of 1104 🔗

I smell a rat with the Asda facemask article Toby linked to. There was a very similar story shortly after the mask rule came in regarding that Huyton branch, only it was an old man moaning that time, rather than the young woman here (who curiously cannot be found on social media) The original source of both stories is the Liverpool Echo. My guess is a bedwetting manager at that Asda has a mate at the Echo, and neither the old man or young woman exist.

91128 ▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Albie, 9, #245 of 1104 🔗

Thanks for this. I was also suspicious of this story and I’m sure you’re right about it being at least exaggerated or, more likely, made-up. Classic MSM fear-porn, pro-mask cheerleading like the Grauniad article about the disabled man being bullied. Asda is following the law or whatever the mask mandate is and that’s that.

I also don’t quite see why Toby linked the Rob Liddle article. Not only is it possible to read it if you’re not prepared to give money to Murdoch, but do we really need the knowledge that a MSM ;journalist; is continuing to pump out his masters’ voice? Frankly I don’t give a shit whether or not Rob Liddle ‘comes round’, even if that were likely.

91182 ▶▶▶ arfurmo, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 2, #246 of 1104 🔗

Rod Liddle is a masker -https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-I-will-wear-a-face-mask if you have a subscription

91198 ▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to arfurmo, 11, #247 of 1104 🔗

He’s also a twat. Thanks but no I don’t subscribe to the Spectator. People have been complaining on here about Liddle’s pro-lockdown stance for weeks so it’s hardly surprising that he continues to churn out propaganda.

Something else to ignore hence my comment.

91187 ▶▶▶ TomFaz, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 10, #248 of 1104 🔗

There’s nothing reluctant in Liddle’s piece, its just ill-informed pro-mask pro-lockdown nonsense: “For every study that shows masks are useless, I can show you one that says they work wonders.” Mind you, its not nearly as bad as the truly unpleasant comment article by Deborah Ross in yesterday’s Times: “This is just a bit of cloth on your face….I see you don’t understand when a minor inconvenience is no more than that. I also see you don’t come from a family of Holocaust survivors, as I do.”

91206 ▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to TomFaz, 23, #249 of 1104 🔗

Oh great – how dirty does this get? Liddle is an arsehole and what a nasty piece of work Ross is. She’s clearly a stranger to irony since it sounds as if she’s cheering on the sort of fascism that gained hold in the 1930s. A yellow star was ‘just a bit of cloth’, after all.

Watch out for this stuff, it’s gaining hold. More pro-scamdemic journalists are smearing us with the word ‘denier’ – equating lockdown scepticism with Holocaust denial. Resist!

91224 ▶▶▶▶▶ Lucky, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 2, #250 of 1104 🔗

Well said.

91226 ▶▶▶▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 8, #251 of 1104 🔗

Deborah Ross isn’t the only person who comes from a family of Holocaust survivors. One day, I might even tell her the story of two Polish brothers. But even without that, she really ought to recognise the signs.

91232 ▶▶▶▶▶ TomFaz, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 17, #252 of 1104 🔗

It gets worse, earlier in the article Ross complains how the sight of bare faces on a train made her angry, although “…some will have had a good reason and we need to be able to identify these people somehow. But the others?” That’s right – the disabled should be publicly badged for her peace of mind.

91430 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to TomFaz, 2, #253 of 1104 🔗

Yellow stars it is then.

91547 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ ConstantBees, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 1, #254 of 1104 🔗

I have wondered if I should find or make a yellow star to go with my exemption card.

91614 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to TomFaz, 1, #255 of 1104 🔗

That’s superb. An insight into the ‘liberal’, ‘progressive’ mind.

91399 ▶▶▶▶▶ TheBluePill, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 4, #256 of 1104 🔗

It’s been obvious to me for a couple of months that this was a possible next step for our psychopath government. We sceptics may be the first easy targets. Indefinite imprisonment or disappearing for any covid-deniers. I still hope this is only a worst-case scenario, but I am preparing myself to have to make a rapid change in behaviour should this go full fascist. I hope Toby has a nuclear option to shut down this site and shred the data if needed. I have started to think seriously about techniques to evade government surveillance, it should probably be something that we all consider.
What I have just written would have seemed like an absolute lunatic thing to say only six months ago, but we have seen that the government’s of the world are willing to take this to the extreme. And those of us that remember history lessons know how rapidly these horrors can develop.

91286 ▶▶▶▶ Lisa from Toronto, replying to TomFaz, 16, #257 of 1104 🔗

It’s precisely because I am Jewish that I recognize creeping fascism when I see it! And for anyone who thinks I’m a conspiracy theorist (I use the term conspiracy realist now), I have them imagine me telling them in the early 1930s that in the near future all Jews would have to wear yellow stars for identification, be subject to harassment, have their business taken from them, and eventually slaughtered in camps by the millions, they would have called me a conspiracy theorist. But on a funny note…I’d tell you all a coronavirus joke but 99% of you wouldn’t get it!

91352 ▶▶▶▶▶ Kate, replying to Lisa from Toronto, 9, #258 of 1104 🔗

That is my reason for not wearing a mask, though I am not jewish.. The medical reasons do not justify such an alteration in our behaviour, and I will not let my behaviour be dictated to me by anyone else. Those who comply – even though they do not understand why – are complicit in authoritarian dictates Have we learnt nothing from history?

91129 ▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Albie, 3, #259 of 1104 🔗

The surname being Whitty as mentioned in the Mirror article makes me suspicious.

91179 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Albie, 5, #260 of 1104 🔗

I have checked the birth records between 1984-2005 and there is no record for anyone called Eve/Evelyn/Evelin Whitty recorded during this period.

91207 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to JohnB, 2, #261 of 1104 🔗

It definitely looks to be a fake name, I checked also birth records for Whitty with the middle name Eve/Evelyn/Evelin too.

There is only three other people called Eve Whitty on the electoral roll over the last 20 years, which are from 2001-2003, which can’t be her as she’s only 31 as the article says.

91106 RickH, replying to RickH, 7, #262 of 1104 🔗

Just a shout to endorse the excellent Ivor Cummins video listed above. It doesn’t go into the technical issues about PCR testing – which is another relevant subject – but concisely puts to bed the idea that the current focus on ‘cases’ is anything but another Scary Fairy event. See :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU3OibcindQ&feature=youtu.be

91150 ▶▶ Mark, replying to RickH, 1, #263 of 1104 🔗

Yes, I’ve been passing that link out quite widely over the past few days. It helps that it’s short (less than 10 mins) and pretty concise. And pretty devastating!

91378 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to RickH, #264 of 1104 🔗

Casedemic!

91434 ▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Cheezilla, #265 of 1104 🔗

Yes, it’s a brilliant and very clear, succinct video.

91108 Cristi.Neagu, replying to Cristi.Neagu, 11, #266 of 1104 🔗

Wait. You actually think he’ll scrap PHE? I don’t think he will. You know how when a restaurant gets absolutely abysmal reviews and hygiene scores they change their name and go on as they did before? That’s probably what they’re doing with PHE.

91138 ▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to Cristi.Neagu, 14, #267 of 1104 🔗

Governments are always repackaging shit and selling it as sugar. PHE will be no different.

91425 ▶▶▶ Darryl, replying to Nick Rose, #268 of 1104 🔗

Exactly, they will pension off a few senior people / get a few new senior bureaucrats / spend a few million on a rebranding etc. 99% of the organisation will be exactly the same – staff, offices etc.

91118 John Stone, replying to John Stone, 3, #269 of 1104 🔗

Prior to the COVID debacle what was most evident about PHE was its lack of accountability to the public or parliament – it was shield for a lot of quasi autonomous bodies within the NHS to make hay without public scrutiny. But in my memory it was set up by an act of parliament, so can Hancock disband and replace it without another one? But obviously it was the body which failed, not Hancock – oh no, no!

91152 ▶▶ John Stone, replying to John Stone, 2, #270 of 1104 🔗

I spent a lot of time trying to draw attention to the fact that Andrew Pollard – presently head of the Oxford Covid vaccine project – was head of two PHE agencies, the Oxford Vaccine Group and the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation where he could favour his own products, notably the Bexsero Men B Vaccine. PHE were indifferent to the problem and the DH (as it was at the time) said it was nothing to do with them.

http://www.parliament.scot/S4_PublicPetitionsCommittee/General%20Documents/20160129_PE1584_D_JStone.pdf

Pollard finally recused himself from the JCVI in May after years of complaints.

91122 Bruno, replying to Bruno, 5, #271 of 1104 🔗

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(20)30180-8/fulltext
Here’s a piece from the Lancet reporting on autopsies at the JR Hospital, Oxford, during the first 2 months of lockdown. When I posted it late yesterday, Cheezilla correctly observed that about 25% of the autopsied deaths seemed to be indirect results of the lockdown, e.g. 3/10 suicides had cited financial pressures relating to it. On the other hand, the accompanying graphic shows that ‘unexplained natural causes’ autopsies went down from 65 in the same months of 2018 to 20 in 2020. (Sorry, no 33. or 42. or even 666, thank goodness). Others may like to speculate on what that means, or come up with other autopsy numbers. These are so small I wouldn’t like to.
But interesting, for when we start to count the cost in human life from this.

91144 ▶▶ RickH, replying to Bruno, 1, #272 of 1104 🔗

Very difficult to unpick, given the lack of random sampling and the nature of the classifications.

What does seem clear is that, in these post-mortems, Covid itself played a minor role in deaths.

Basically – we’ll never know.

91124 RickH, replying to RickH, 37, #273 of 1104 🔗

Sardonic laugh at the ‘celebration’ of VJ day yesterday.

The sight of a nation cowering in hysterical fear whilst a government destroys the fabric of what was fought for (and which gave my generation so much in contrast) for would have filled the two preceding generations of my family with disgust and scorn.

Loathing is too mild a word.

91140 ▶▶ Nigel Sherratt, replying to RickH, 8, #274 of 1104 🔗

Yes, they even made Gurkhas wear masks. This tells you why that probably wasn’t necessary, that and their unique lungs adapted to hard work at altitude. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/military-obituaries/gurkha-obituaries/1580614/Bhanubhakta-Gurung-VC.html

91324 ▶▶▶ Sue, replying to Nigel Sherratt, 3, #275 of 1104 🔗

the gurkhas are amazing – i was in nepal in december and in Pokhara there is a Gurkha museum which is well worth visiting if you’re there. I don’t usually go to museums but this was really informative and interesting with lots of photos and exhibits. Many of the gurkhas are recruited from the local mountainous region which is extremely poor. But what brave soldiers they are and very proud to serve in our army.

91389 ▶▶▶▶ Bruno, replying to Sue, 1, #276 of 1104 🔗

Hope you bought a souvenir kukhri, for their funds! The Ghurka soldiers’ houses always stand out as the best in the town. I wouldn’t want to stay in England if I were a retired Ghurka but some do, shamefully we wouldn’t let them till 2009.

91524 ▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Bruno, 2, #277 of 1104 🔗

I’m a big fan of the Gurkhas, but I’d query “shamefully”. They’re mercenaries and always have been. The great advantage to the individual Gurkha and to Nepal was that they would serve in the British army and would go back as a comparatively wealthy man and would then support their community. These are not men who have served queen and country, these are men who have served someone else’s queen and someone else’s country in exchange for a cushy retirement.

Wonderful soldiers though they are, why the obligation to accept them reneging on the deal?

91157 ▶▶ Fiat, replying to RickH, 1, #278 of 1104 🔗

Quite.

91160 ▶▶▶ Nigel Sherratt, replying to Fiat, #279 of 1104 🔗

His company commander described him as “a smiling, hard-swearing and indomitable soldier who in a battalion of brave men was one of the bravest”.

91349 ▶▶ Drawde927, replying to RickH, 5, #280 of 1104 🔗

I felt much the same on VE day, though it was a lot worse then as we still had the “stay at home” restrictions. Not so much “Blitz spirit” as “deep shelter mentality” (google it)

91394 ▶▶ richard riewer, replying to RickH, 1, #281 of 1104 🔗

Fear and Loathing in the U.K.

91125 Tyneside Tigress, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 17, #282 of 1104 🔗

Apologies if this has been posted already. I have been a bit tied up in A Level matters, and possible appeals for my son (another government self-inflected shambles).

https://www.zerohedge.com/medical/doctors-pen-open-letter-fauci-regarding-use-hydroxychloroquine-treating-covid-19

So, if the ‘HCQ cocktail’ is effective at days 5-7 in home/outpatient setting, with the second line of ‘Oxygen plus Dexamethasone’ if that fails at days 7-10, does this also mean there is no need for a vaccine? Oops, not what Mr Gates and Big Pharma wants to hear!

91228 ▶▶ Margaret, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 3, #283 of 1104 🔗

I’m so sorry TT. It’s a stressful time in any event without all this going on. Do hope that you succeed in your efforts.

91269 ▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Margaret, 2, #284 of 1104 🔗

Thanks Margaret. Our dispute is with the school and how it got to his rank order in one of the subjects. We are not making much progress by being ‘nice’, so looks like it will require formal letter to exam board. TT junior is his mother’s son, and takes no prisoners!

91142 Major Panic, replying to Major Panic, 11, #285 of 1104 🔗

Leaders have to constantly make decisions.
People who never make mistakes, never make decisions.
Mistakes are both inevitable and acceptable.
But – its how the mistakes are acknowledged and put right that makes the leader.
Boris is no leader and is the mistake…

91409 ▶▶ T. Prince, replying to Major Panic, 3, #286 of 1104 🔗

MP, I agree that Johnson (I can’t call him by his first name because I despise him so much) is no leader and isn’t competent to run this country, but this lunacy is worldwide.Look what’s happening in Australia, NZ (!),some US (Democratic) states.This charade is being kept spinning for some reason. It may be compulsory vaccines, I just don’t know what to believe anymore because it’s all so bizarre

91705 ▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Major Panic, #287 of 1104 🔗

Electing him was a mistake.

91145 Silke David, replying to Silke David, 5, #288 of 1104 🔗

Anyone who speaks Geman, watch the interview with Sucharit Bhakdi and Bodo Schiffmann on Bittel TV on Youtube or Telegram which was conducted yesterday, Saturday, 15th August.

Mr Bhakdi explains everything in such simple terms it is brilliant! He has written a book, which will be available beginning of September in english, which has been on the German Bestseller list at no 1 for 7 weeks.

91510 ▶▶ helen, replying to Silke David, 3, #289 of 1104 🔗

Also here in Germany there is an independent inquiry underway, mostly in German but evidence from Italy, Netherlands and Belgium in English. Its called ” Stiftung Corona Ausschuss “. It can be viewed on YouTube Sitzung 1-10 with about 3 more to go. Its an initiative by a group of German lawyers and immunologist Prof Wolfgang Wodarg.

They are gathering evidence from experts in all fields, eg. PCR test, mask efficacy, effects upon children of measures, etc etc. The aim to bring the facts to public attention and to initiate legal action against responsible parties.

91636 ▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to helen, #290 of 1104 🔗

Good!

91731 ▶▶ matt, replying to Silke David, #291 of 1104 🔗

Thanks for the prompt – superb.

91153 Tim Bidie, 4, #292 of 1104 🔗

Interesting study here comparing effectiveness of various different BCG strain (anti Tuberculosis) vaccines against covid 19 to explain differentials in infection and mortality rates between countries still using mandated BCG vaccination for children.

The BCG Japan based vaccine comes out top

The consistently reduced disease incidence across all age groups for countries with a universal BCG policy is in line with the suggestion of an inverse correlation between the BCG vaccine and COVID-19. In comparison, a rise in disease incidence across all age groups for countries without a universal BCG policy substantiates the hypothesis that BCG immunization could be repurposed to provide a weapon to combat the COVID-19 pandemic.’

‘We found that countries adopting a mixture of different strains of the BCG vaccine such as South Korea and the Philippines reported a lower number of confirmed and fatal cases.’

The study also makes another suggestion regarding Hydroxychloroquine as a prophylactic against the coronavirus

‘In this contribution, we have instead emphasized the possible chemoprophylactic role of CQ and HCQ: even if the evidence for it is admittedly only circumstantial, such a role should be tested in appropriately designed trials.’

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41419-020-2720-9

91163 Fiat, replying to Fiat, 3, #293 of 1104 🔗

Listening to Jeff Wayne’s Musical Version of the War of the Worlds.
Re-imagining the Red Weed for Face Muzzles creeping their way across the land. “But oh, the sweetness of the air!”

91214 ▶▶ Eddie, replying to Fiat, 3, #294 of 1104 🔗

One of my favorites!!!

91252 ▶▶▶ Fiat, replying to Eddie, 2, #295 of 1104 🔗

Take a look around you at the world we’ve come to know
Does it seem to be much more than a crazy circus show

91270 ▶▶ Achilles, replying to Fiat, 8, #296 of 1104 🔗

And what saved humanity in the end? Natural resistance to germs acquired through the process of life and death. Just sayin’.

91328 ▶▶▶ Fiat, replying to Achilles, 1, #297 of 1104 🔗

Indeed. A tale for our time.

91166 Moomin, replying to Moomin, 3, #298 of 1104 🔗

Hi simon dolan’s feed is showing that the Italian pm us being questioned over going into lockdown against the scientific advice. Does anyone have any more information on this?

91225 ▶▶ ShropshireLass, replying to Moomin, 3, #299 of 1104 🔗

Kevin – I haven’t checked this, but possibly refers to the original WHO advice not to go into a full lockdown because this is not sustainable and has never been proven to work, except for when an infectious disease has not spread beyond a small, confined geographical area or small isolated population (reference their paper of 2019 on dealing with a major influenza pandemic). They then qualified this statement of advice saying it could be useful for a very short period only – a couple of weeks, in order for the authorities to put emergency measures in place (meaning set up isolation wards, special units, source sufficient PPE and meds). It was on their website originally. Possibly still is if you can find their timeline?

91178 Simon Dutton, replying to Simon Dutton, 14, #300 of 1104 🔗

Terrific German site (with some content available in English; click “International” on the home page):

https://acu2020.org/

Top-flight German doctors and scientists denouncing the scam.

91222 ▶▶ Margaret, replying to Simon Dutton, 18, #301 of 1104 🔗

Yes, this from Professor Haditsch, specialist in microbiology, virology and infection epidemiology and trained GP, who said it was important that everyone asks critical questions and does plausibility checks:

“And then it will become clear that Bergamo is not Italy, Ischgl is not Austria, NY is not the USA and a carnival party in Heinsberg, an apartment building in Gottingen* and slaughterhouses wherever they may be, are not Germany”

He also goes on to say that:

German health care has never even been close to being overrun

Measurement figures like the dreadful R0 number were used for the primary purpose of creating fear.

He talks about the false and untrustworthy fatality figures.

Numbers of cases were declining significantly, well before lockdown.

General mask wearing 4 weeks later (he repeats FOUR weeks later) was factually unfounded, unlawful and psycho-socially irresponsible.

Er, does this remind you of what’s been happening in any other parts of the world?

*sorry umlaut’s gone missing.

91400 ▶▶ T. Prince, replying to Simon Dutton, 4, #302 of 1104 🔗

That, and the huge anti-lockdown protests a couple of weeks ago give me hope for the Germans…us though? I despair

91417 ▶▶▶ Darryl, replying to T. Prince, 3, #303 of 1104 🔗

There is a protest on the 29th August in London at Trafalgar Square. Hopefully 1,000s will attend. There should be various high profile sceptics speaking.

91449 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Darryl, #304 of 1104 🔗

I hope it’s better than this one. This is from the StandupX site, a report of their anti-mask demo yesterday. Those interviewed don’t exactly help the cause.

https://youtu.be/ESaZ_Wt5AQY

91495 ▶▶▶▶▶ gina, replying to Cheezilla, #305 of 1104 🔗

Umm – I’ve held off going to any protests because they’ve been organised by StandupX and I’m not anti vax and know nothing about 5G.
But I’ve had a rethink about my attitude after reading something on here.
A few days ago someone posted their thoughts on the various interests of StandupX protestors. He/she said, for now, he didn’t really mind if protests were organised by anti vax or 5g interests or anyone else.
He would take the opportunity to ally with anyone who offered the opportunity to stand up for the immediate return of our freedoms and liberties.
I remembered I wasn’t so picky in the past. On the Criminal Justice Bill protests I went because I was outraged at the removal of the right to silence. I was fine with the right to rave crew being up the front at the head of all kinds of other interest groups.
So I’m going to the Trafalgar Square meet. It never hurts to be able to say a wide cross section of opinions and interests are represented here.

91794 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Rowan, replying to gina, 1, #306 of 1104 🔗

You’re not anti-vax? Do some research!

91835 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Rick08765, replying to Rowan, #307 of 1104 🔗

Do some research… And find that vaccines, unlike lockdowns and suppression of civil liberties, actually save lives.

91999 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Victoria, replying to Rick08765, 1, #308 of 1104 🔗

Vaccine Transparency Manifesto
https://www.anhinternational.org/news/call-to-action-help-create-the-new-vaccine-narrative/

The 10-point VACCINE TRANSPARENCY Manifesto

  1. Full disclosure of raw data from studies and trials to allow independent analysis
  2. Full transparency in relation to safety and efficacy trials
  3. Full transparency over the vaccine platform(s) and technology used for commercial vaccines
  4. Conduct of comprehensive studies evaluating the independent risks from adjuvants (additives)
  5. Full disclosure of vaccine composition in commercial formulations
  6. Full transparency of all adverse event data in all studies and post-marketing surveillance
  7. Clarification of eligibility and criteria for no-fault vaccine injury payments or compensation
  8. Clarification of nature and extent of government indemnity of manufacturers in the event of vaccine injury
  9. Public dissemination of extent of naturally-acquired (herd) immunity prior to vaccine roll-out and individual consent
  10. Involvement of elected representatives in due democratic process should mandatory vaccination be contemplated by authorities

https://www.anhinternational.org/resources/documents/uk-vaccine-transparency-manifesto/

Vaccine Damage Payment
If you’re severely disabled as a result of a vaccination against certain diseases, you could get a one-off tax-free payment of £120,000. This is called a Vaccine Damage Payment.
https://www.gov.uk/vaccine-damage-payment

92029 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ gina, replying to Rick08765, -1, #309 of 1104 🔗

Thank you Rick08765.

92026 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ gina, replying to Rowan, #310 of 1104 🔗

I have four now adult kids. I did my homework then thanks, when they were small and in my care and it was needful for me to do so.
I’ll research whatever I please and take my own line without your exhortation.I object to being told what I should do – and what conclusion I should reach.

91188 Eddie, replying to Eddie, 27, #311 of 1104 🔗

Oh no, we’re in big trouble now. Sharon Stone’s sister has caught the virus and she’s blaming people not wearing masks of course.
I will voluntarily be turning myself in later today as I have yet to wear a mask anywhere, and it’s likely I may have spiked the air around me with trillions of covidi.

91189 ▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Eddie, 16, #312 of 1104 🔗

I’m Spartacus.

91209 ▶▶ Laura Suckling, replying to Eddie, 22, #313 of 1104 🔗

This makes me mad as Hell! Bloody ‘celebrities’ having a say on everything. Just because you’re paid a lot of money to say another persons words, does not make your opinion more valid.

I saw some actress (didn’t know who she was), on you tube shouting at people to “wear a damn mask” because her hair is thinning. So, the stupid woman thinks that the virus spread from non mask wearers is making her bald, even though she doesn’t have it.

91213 ▶▶▶ Eddie, replying to Laura Suckling, 7, #314 of 1104 🔗

Damn it that’s it then! My tiny bald spot looks to have increased as well…I better wear a face nappy over my head from now on 🙂

91799 ▶▶▶▶ Rowan, replying to Eddie, #315 of 1104 🔗

No no, it only works for other people, not on yourself.

91217 ▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Laura Suckling, 18, #316 of 1104 🔗

Carl Vernon featured that video. It was very disturbing, almost unwatchable. The woman is clearly mentally ill and the ‘wear a damn mask’ comment at the end chilling. CV’s response -‘Go fuck yourself’ was the right one, in my opinion.

91516 ▶▶▶▶ Mr Dee, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 1, #317 of 1104 🔗

Mr Vernon’s own hair in that video was fabulous. I must get the name of his stylist.

91244 ▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Laura Suckling, #318 of 1104 🔗

Let’s hope that she was pulling our legs.

91298 ▶▶▶ Sophie123, replying to Laura Suckling, 7, #319 of 1104 🔗

I saw that too. She’s my age. Perimenopausal. There’s a more obvious reason why her hair might be thinning.

91316 ▶▶▶▶ Laura Suckling, replying to Sophie123, 5, #320 of 1104 🔗

Ahhh…but it couldn’t just be the result of ageing and lack of hormones, like normal people, could it? Because she’s famous, (apparently), and special, it must be external and somebody else’s fault.

No self awareness and totally self obsessed.

91810 ▶▶▶▶ Rowan, replying to Sophie123, #321 of 1104 🔗

No it was caused by coronavirus that would be the “official” answer. Wear a mask and stop other people’s hair loss!

91314 ▶▶▶ Michel, replying to Laura Suckling, 5, #322 of 1104 🔗

Shit…if you would all have worn your masks ten years ago I’d still have hair… 🙂

91452 ▶▶▶▶ Laura Suckling, replying to Michel, 3, #323 of 1104 🔗

And I would still have a 22 inch waist.

91797 ▶▶▶ Rowan, replying to Laura Suckling, #324 of 1104 🔗

Let’s hope that there are enough non-mask wearers to make her totally bald.

91645 ▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Eddie, #325 of 1104 🔗

How did she catch it at this late date?

91661 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Eddie, #326 of 1104 🔗

Celebs should be filed under “best ignored” list. What a nincompoop!

91191 tallandbald, replying to tallandbald, 24, #327 of 1104 🔗

Every time i log-in here for my daily dose of sanity i now have to see that gurning chump Handcock’s face. I really would like the chance to squeeze his fat head through those railings behind him.
This is not good for my blood pressure.

91204 ▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to tallandbald, 9, #328 of 1104 🔗

You’ll have to join the queue! 😠

91241 ▶▶ tonyspurs, replying to tallandbald, 18, #329 of 1104 🔗

I’ve posted it before and I’m gonna post it again

91299 ▶▶▶ Thinkaboutit, replying to tonyspurs, 1, #330 of 1104 🔗

😂

91390 ▶▶▶ KBuchanan, replying to tonyspurs, 2, #331 of 1104 🔗

Things really should be correctly labelled.

91517 ▶▶▶ Mr Dee, replying to tonyspurs, #332 of 1104 🔗

Made my day.

91850 ▶▶▶ Rick08765, replying to tonyspurs, #333 of 1104 🔗

A “cock” would be seomone who merely pondered whether to lock down. Someone who actually did it, and kept doing it for months when the damage became even more apparent than the predictions said it would be, must be described with much less polite language.

91192 PWL, replying to PWL, 5, #334 of 1104 🔗

Left the following comment under Hitchen’s Sunday column today, provoked to it by sly promotion of official death toll numbers. Three out of five deaths, says Hitchens, will be due to coronavirus, “assuming the Covid death figures are not inflated”. I realise that pointing this stuff out is not going to make any difference to most of you. This is what you want… this is what you get .

“We don’t need to assume anything about Covid-19 death figures. They are inflated. Covid-19 is a specific illness that requires intensive care hospitalisation. ICNARC say that less than five thousand people have died of Covid-19 in England, Wales and Northern Ireland ICUs. Lots of these involved comorbidities that death could actually be attributed to. Indeed, we know that a very high percentage of all supposed “Covid-19″ death was actually by dint of a comorbidity – perhaps even 95%.

The trouble with this death toll reset straw man – and we can assume it was done for this purpose – is that it invites perception that the numbers are reliable.”

91205 ▶▶ WhyNow, replying to PWL, 5, #335 of 1104 🔗

But what caused the spike in April? It’s plausible that Covid (the respiratory illness, not the virus) kills people already suffering from dementia, advanced cancer etc. Then it’s plausible that deaths are lower in the following months because that cohort of ill people has gone, OR because better PPE and lockdown prevents them from getting infected. But then the usual deaths from normal causes would have to continue again at their normal rates.

A respiratory disease can’t continually bring deaths forward unless it also kills people who are not terminally ill. So why has this disease been so selective for terminally ill people?

Possible answers are:

  • infection spreads in the particular intimate environment of a hospital or a care home, but not much outside that
  • or, it really only affects people whose normal immune system has already packed up.

With public health having been nationalised, it could take twenty or thirty years to find out.

91221 ▶▶▶ Mark II, replying to WhyNow, 5, #336 of 1104 🔗

Well it hasn’t continued,we’ve been below average for 2 months now.

But also, the sharp increase in deaths also correlates perfectly with the withdrawal of normally available medical care and emergency medical services, as well as the lockdown which prevented people getting outside, stopped people seeking medical assistance and increased isolation of the elderly and disabled populations most likely to suffer real physical health consequences as a result of a deterioration in mental health and life satisfaction.

Obviously can’t prove causation, but it correlates more closely than ‘lockdown saved lives’ (where deaths increased post lockdowns and took many weeks to start falling, rather than the 3 or 4 weeks it would have taken if effective)

91304 ▶▶▶▶ WhyNow, replying to Mark II, #337 of 1104 🔗

Maybe we need a more coherent alternative explanation for the data.

Lots of countries recorded a spike in deaths from a respiratory disease. I think we have to start by assuming that existed, although the absolute numbers may be wrong.

The vital question now is whether the lockdown is restricting it from erupting again; or whether it has naturally petered out and was never that severe anyway.

What I am puzzled by is why it seems to affect only the terminally ill e.g. people with dementia. What is the connection between dementia and susceptibility to the virus? One connection is intimate care in hospital or a care home, with poor hygiene. Or the explanation could be as simple as misdiagnosis.

If it were lockdown, then flu and pneumonia should also have been suppressed, but they have not been.

91348 ▶▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to WhyNow, 5, #338 of 1104 🔗

Don’t flu and pneumonia prove way more fatal to the old and frail than to the young and healthy? Covid doesn’t seem unusual in that regard.

There has certainly been a spike in many countries, though in many others almost none. In places where things have been let take their more or less natural course (Sweden, Belarus, Haiti, Pakistan) it has more or less petered out, which suggests that there is a good deal of natural/prior immunity and that the HIT is lower than first thought.

The countries that haven’t had a spike are maybe outliers – possibly they have simply protected their old and vulnerable better than others, or maybe in somewhere like Japan it is genetic.

The important thing is that even in countries where the mortality has been highest, it is nothing like high enough to justify the measures being taken, and all the evidence points to that being more or less “it” now. Even if it’s not “it” and we get another spike this winter/spring, what is happening now is not sustainable and it’s simply immoral, so it’s incumbent on the people proposing unprecedented measures to justify them, and not incumbent on us to provide a 100% accurate explanation for every excess death this year – in fact I would argue this is a discussion it’s better not to enter to, because we simply don’t need to.

91395 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ WhyNow, replying to Julian, 2, #339 of 1104 🔗

I can’t agree with that. We seem to have a consensus among health professionals, the BBC and the politicians that lockdown is necessary to prevent higher than normal death rate. Many or most the public seem to agree. It doesn’t matter if we think they are all stupid, or up to something.

We can’t get out of lockdown unless the consensus changes. For that to happen, there has to be an alternative explanation than that lockdown reduced the level of infection.

91851 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Rick08765, replying to WhyNow, #340 of 1104 🔗

Sweden provides that example, despite being sane and keeping their liberties and economy intact they managed to follow a curve of deaths remarkably similar, per million, to the UK’s. But the media does nothing except try to obscure this fact.

91403 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to WhyNow, #341 of 1104 🔗

If it were lockdown, then flu and pneumonia should also have been suppresses, but they have not been.

They have (flu-like infections), though it depends what you mean by lockdown. The big drop seems to have happened at the same time as the covid19 drop, in the week or two before the lockdown proper was introduced, as a result of voluntary social distancing measures.

What does RCGP surveillance tell us about COVID-19 in the community?

91457 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Mark, #342 of 1104 🔗

That’s an awful lot of unknown pathogens!

91460 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Cheezilla, #343 of 1104 🔗

Yes, that obviously alarmed the CEBM writers as well:

The explanations for these findings could be numerous: from contamination, to sample damage or unrecognised known agents, to looking for the most probable “culprits” (and not finding them). However, the presence of so many “unknowns” raises the possibility of the circulation of one or more co-agents.
This merits further investigation and explanation. Circulating unknown co-agents cannot be dismissed and should be thoroughly investigated as a matter of urgency. If found to be an artefact, it should be discounted for.”

91295 ▶▶▶ Sophie123, replying to WhyNow, 4, #344 of 1104 🔗

I don’t think it was just bringing deaths forward as such: there was a “backlog” in the UK. The proportion of deaths in over 65s from ILI and pneumonia every year was about half a percent lower than the longer term average in the 5 years up to 2020. So there were a lot of older people susceptible to respiratory infection hanging on longer than they would have done ordinarily.

That’s what my analysis of the ONS data showed anyway.

91310 ▶▶▶▶ WhyNow, replying to Sophie123, 2, #345 of 1104 🔗

And so presumably equally susceptible to flu. Which means that poor diagnosis may account for a large number of the “Covid” deaths.

91351 ▶▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to WhyNow, 2, #346 of 1104 🔗

Quite possibly.

Someone posted a list yesterday of average ages of people dying from/with covid, that I think is more or less identical to the average life expectancy in each country.

91329 ▶▶▶ T. Prince, replying to WhyNow, 2, #347 of 1104 🔗

Maybe, because 2018/19 was a ‘mild flu season’, covid took those weakest that might otherwise have succumbed had last year been a bad flu year?

91196 richard riewer, replying to richard riewer, 11, #348 of 1104 🔗

The Health Secretary, who returns to work after a UK holiday this week

Oh yeah? Where the $$@$ was he holidaying?

91220 ▶▶ annie, replying to richard riewer, 7, #349 of 1104 🔗

Pity it wasn’t here, accidents happen on cliffs etc.

91303 ▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to richard riewer, 7, #350 of 1104 🔗

Why would the Health Minister take a holiday when we are in the middle of a health crisis?

91437 ▶▶▶ Biker, replying to Dave #KBF, 4, #351 of 1104 🔗

because he knows that it’s much ado about nothing

91459 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Dave #KBF, #352 of 1104 🔗

Same reason as our country’s great leader …….

91215 richard riewer, replying to richard riewer, 16, #353 of 1104 🔗

Dear Toby Young, this is the best comment to date and should be used to shame all those who screamed for compulsory mask wearing:

Laura Suckling
1 hour ago

Reply to Mr Dee

Maybe, if you are too frightened to go out without a mask, you should stay in. Do they really think a virus that escaped from a grade 4 containment lab is going to be stopped by a disposable mask?

91242 ▶▶ Nessimmersion, replying to richard riewer, 19, #354 of 1104 🔗

Seems to have been forgotten but sums it all up, could do with a few million of these printed out and stuck up in every shop window.

91483 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to Nessimmersion, 1, #355 of 1104 🔗

Level 4 bio lab.

I’m not saying that there’s no credibility in the theory that the thing was lab-developed. But do we really want to be suggesting that the virus is that dangerous, when it’s clearly not?

91542 ▶▶▶▶ Nessimmersion, replying to matt, 1, #356 of 1104 🔗

Probably not, but the ridiculousness of trying to slow down a virus with a cloth mask is well captured in that one.

91648 ▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Nessimmersion, #357 of 1104 🔗

Funny that the government demands Zero yet this lab obviously did not have Zero security level standards. If they don’t have Zero then they should not be in the business of manufacturing dangerous bacterias and should be closed down.

91247 ▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to richard riewer, 12, #358 of 1104 🔗

As I put in my open letter to Boris Johnson:

“To protect themselves from a virus virologists wear full containment suits that are pressurised, use an
independent air supply that is filtered and sterilised, undergo full decontamination procedures when taking
off the protective suit and undergo years of training on how to use the PPE.”

“Based on the information available on Government websites I could NOT write a risk assessment that
contained supporting evidence to justify any measure to be used such as staying a little bit apart from others,
standing behind a small perspex screen, wearing a “face covering”, using a face shield, not using cash and
using an anti-bacterial hand sanitiser that could be written into a risk assessment trying to justify them when
there is no evidence whatsoever that as a “safety measure” it actually has any effect on keeping people “safe”
and would bring the risk as low as reasonably practicable.”

91523 ▶▶ Mr Dee, replying to richard riewer, #359 of 1104 🔗

I’d hasten to point out Ms Suckling was not replying to me personally… the only time I ever wear a mask is at Halloween.

91572 ▶▶▶ Laura Suckling, replying to Mr Dee, #360 of 1104 🔗

Jolly Good!

91235 Major Panic, replying to Major Panic, 2, #361 of 1104 🔗

Not sure if I found this on here or elsewhere but worth a share….

https://jennifermargulis.net/wearing-mask-can-harm-your-health/

91240 Peter Thompson, replying to Peter Thompson, 16, #363 of 1104 🔗

Melbourne is sadly being ruled with an iron fist by a clown . The Premier of Victoria is now saying the 6 week hard lockdown is unlikely to be lifted before Christmas otherwise there will be a 3rd and a 4th wave ! ”

” The Victorian Premier Daniel Andrews has made comments about “kicking off a third wave” and potential fourth of coronavirus.
Andrews was responding to questions about easing Covid-19 restrictions in time for Christmas, saying there were “a number of different options”.

Mass hysteria is in overdrive in Victoria aided by a partisan media. Shame on you, Melbourne Age.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12356819&&ref=recommended

91250 ▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Peter Thompson, 4, #364 of 1104 🔗

How do any of these people get away with this Fascist/Authoritarian behaviour?

91262 ▶▶▶ Achilles, replying to richard riewer, 11, #365 of 1104 🔗

Through the consent of the media and the people. Simples.

91275 ▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to richard riewer, 4, #366 of 1104 🔗

Because no-one is rioting in enough numbers yet plus the and all their weapons taken off them like us and NZ.

91320 ▶▶▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to Awkward Git, 10, #367 of 1104 🔗

Indeed. I’m all in favour of the UK returning to the gun laws we had prior to the First World War.

91383 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Nick Rose, 2, #368 of 1104 🔗

I’m with you there.

91254 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Peter Thompson, 4, #369 of 1104 🔗

So that’s what megalomania looks like!

91346 ▶▶ Tenchy, replying to Peter Thompson, 7, #370 of 1104 🔗

Third and fourth wave? Give me strength! Right now they are experiencing their first wave, or should I say first ripple, because at just a few hundred positive tests a day, and falling, that’s about what it is.

91381 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Peter Thompson, 6, #371 of 1104 🔗

“ruled with an iron fist by a clown”

A modern test of national character. The longer the population puts up with it, the more worthless the culture. It’s not looking great for Australia, or for Britain.

91414 ▶▶▶ T. Prince, replying to Mark, 4, #372 of 1104 🔗

At least they have Alan Jones on Sky News Australia that will question the stupidity. We have……..?

91456 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to T. Prince, 4, #373 of 1104 🔗

Peter Hitchens,on Talk radio

91245 Polemon2, replying to Polemon2, 15, #374 of 1104 🔗

The general acceptance of masks is fuelled by the images on our TV screens which rarely show anyone without one. Until this changes the general population will continue to follow the crowd. I fear it will only change when one or two western countries have the courage to proclaim that masks are not needed anymore followed by lots of MSM coverage of that “news”.

91248 ▶▶ dpj, replying to Polemon2, 16, #375 of 1104 🔗

As I and others have pointed out here before the BBC seems to use photos of people in masks next to every story even in some cases when it makes no sense.

91253 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to dpj, 5, #376 of 1104 🔗

Not just the beeb though.

91258 ▶▶▶ Achilles, replying to dpj, 6, #377 of 1104 🔗

They were using those photos to stir up fear even before the virus got here (supposedly). Remember those daily photos of people wearing them on the tube when pretty much no one was wearing them?

91334 ▶▶▶ Two-Six, replying to dpj, 6, #378 of 1104 🔗

Masks are being promoted at every opportunity in MSM. Everything is masks masks masks. Masks up the freekin wazoo.

91251 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Polemon2, 13, #379 of 1104 🔗

Have you noticed how in the photos, the kids protesting about their exam results are all muzzled? I’ve wondered if they’ve been persuaded by the photographer, or if they’re doing it anyway nowadays.

If it’s the former, that’s disgraceful. If the latter, that’s very worrying.

91265 ▶▶▶ Mr Dee, replying to Cheezilla, 9, #380 of 1104 🔗

Yep noticed that earlier. Psy-Op-tastic.

91268 ▶▶▶▶ Mr Dee, replying to Mr Dee, 5, #381 of 1104 🔗

I’ve been wondering for months now whether this is just one big Derren Brown Special, and we’re all the stars.

If anyone wants to know how easy it is to be brainwashed watch his shows (all on E4 I think). I’ve seen him live too – he’s not fixing it!

91341 ▶▶▶▶▶ Kate, replying to Mr Dee, 8, #382 of 1104 🔗

A relative of mine is a magician. They are very sceptical about current politics. When I asked why they said “because lying is my business and I know how easy it is to hoodwink people”

91338 ▶▶▶ Two-Six, replying to Cheezilla, 6, #383 of 1104 🔗

It’s a horror show

91347 ▶▶▶▶ Lucky, replying to Two-Six, 1, #384 of 1104 🔗

It truly is.

91355 ▶▶▶ Paul, replying to Cheezilla, 3, #385 of 1104 🔗

First thing I noticed when I saw film of the protest were the masks,I didn’t notice anyone in the crowd watching wearing one though.My first thought was,there they are protesting against the authorities that be and at the same time wearing a symbol of submissive compliance to said authorities.
From the teenagers I see around here I would think they are wearing them of their own volition,which,as you,say,is very worrying.

91287 ▶▶ Dave #KBF, replying to Polemon2, 3, #386 of 1104 🔗

How long before the soaps return and everyone in Coronation Street & Albert Square are mumbling their lines through masks?

91340 ▶▶▶ Two-Six, replying to Dave #KBF, #387 of 1104 🔗

I don’t think they will NOT acknowledge THE virus in soaps, they need to keep them as escapism. I predict that Albert Square will be covid free.

91380 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Two-Six, 3, #388 of 1104 🔗

That would be very unlike the usual practice. Soaps have been heavily used for pc indoctrination for decades, right back to the Archers before there was much television.

91382 ▶▶ Tom Blackburn, replying to Polemon2, 13, #389 of 1104 🔗

Daughter in law works in a Preston pub. Was visited last week by the BBC. They all had to mask-up for filming.

It’s all a sham.

91386 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Polemon2, 6, #390 of 1104 🔗

it will only change when one or two western countries have the courage to proclaim that masks are not needed anymore followed by lots of MSM coverage of that “news”.

The problem is the media is complicit. The good guys in Sweden have been fighting a rearguard action against mask enforcement but no coverage of their current freedom in our media. Then again, our media have been lying about Sweden for so long now it’s probably an ingrained habit.

91246 Awkward Git, 12, #391 of 1104 🔗

Today’s Dilbert a good one.

91249 p02099003, replying to p02099003, 3, #392 of 1104 🔗

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-53794351 tracing 100 people after 4 people tested positive, doesn’t say whether they have had symptoms.

91343 ▶▶ Tenchy, replying to p02099003, 4, #393 of 1104 🔗

A massive four – yes, four – positive tests, with no mention of how they actually link to the pub, or whether they were asymptomatic. Regardless, let’s close the pub. In fact, wouldn’t it be safer to demolish it?

91405 ▶▶▶ Sam Vimes, replying to Tenchy, 3, #394 of 1104 🔗

How come transmission is so much worse in pubs than supermarkets, you know those places that have been open throughout the scam? It really is a clever little V isn’t it? And each one of the four must have had 25 people very closely packed round them, presumably licking the evil virus carrier. Glad we don’t do that in my pub. That’s why I’m still alive, I guess. Yeah.

91413 ▶▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Sam Vimes, 1, #395 of 1104 🔗

That’s because pubs are evil and shops are good.

91448 ▶▶▶▶▶ Laura Suckling, replying to Winston Smith, 1, #396 of 1104 🔗

Not small shops though.

91707 ▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Tenchy, #397 of 1104 🔗

Boris had it, demolish #10 Downing Street.

91271 Adam, replying to Adam, 2, #398 of 1104 🔗

The petition to repeal the wearing of face nappies in shops has simply stalled — barely anyone signing it now. Does anyone else think it may be worth printing out copies of the page, and pinning them up near shops? I simply do not believe that everyone complying with the mask wearing now, who up until a few weeks ago were not bothering, is doing so willingly. Maybe many people simply do not know the petition exists.

91289 ▶▶ Adam, replying to Adam, 1, #399 of 1104 🔗

Or put them on people’s windscreens in supermarkets.

91358 ▶▶▶ Tom Blackburn, replying to Adam, #400 of 1104 🔗

We’d be better off thinking of a meme that ridicules the status quo mask wearers, such is the vacuousness of our society.

91501 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Adam, #401 of 1104 🔗

Nobody reads those. Will just add to the littler problem.

91292 ▶▶ Tom Blackburn, replying to Adam, 3, #402 of 1104 🔗

Just don’t comply. Simples.

91294 ▶▶▶ Adam, replying to Tom Blackburn, #403 of 1104 🔗

Not `simples’. All very well until you get caught a few times and. The fine doubles every time you are collared for it — not everyone cane afford the first fine, let alone thousands. The government needs to be persuaded to stop the lunacy.

91297 ▶▶▶▶ Hubes, replying to Adam, 13, #404 of 1104 🔗

Everybody is exempt. Nobody can be fined.

91302 ▶▶▶▶▶ Adam, replying to Hubes, #405 of 1104 🔗

Maybe this is why it is not attracting signatures then — fellow sceptics that think it is sufficient to simply not comply, rather than actually take 5 seconds to just sign the damned thing to put pressure on the government.

91337 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Adam, 6, #406 of 1104 🔗

I expect most sceptics have signed it, most that know about it anyway. A lot may simply not know about it, and you may also be overestimating the number of active sceptics of the sort that sign petitions or take political action of any kind. Most people just aren’t that involved in politics in that way.

What’s required is a massive, co-ordinated political campaign to get laws changed, restrictions lifted, above all to educate the public at large. This would be something like the Brexit campaigns, with a budget in the tens of millions, a full time staff of people who can formulate messages, target them, buy advertising space to whoever will sell it to them, influence via social media etc.

Bear in mind that the global public has been subjected to relentless, more or less uniform lies for 6 months, from almost every government, media and health organisation source. To counteract that it’s simply not enough to have truth, even the bleeding obvious truth, on our side.

IMO we need some rich sponsors to make this happen. Various sceptics, professional and amateur, can contribute, but we need professionals on the job to lead it, otherwise it will take decades for people to come to their senses (look how long the Soviet Union lasted). Even then, it would probably get shut down as health misinformation, but if I had millions to spare and the right contacts, that’s what I would be doing.

91350 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Adam, replying to Julian, #407 of 1104 🔗

“Most people just aren’t that involved in politics in that way.”

Hence my suggestion to post the petition on windscreens at supermarkets, where people that are complying with the mask wearing under duress, but are otherwise disengaged from the cause, might just be sufficiently pissed off to go online to sign it after suffering the indignity of trawling around a supermarket with a filthy, sweaty rag stuck to their boat race. At the very least, it would raise the publicity of the petition.

91370 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Adam, 2, #408 of 1104 🔗

Possibly, but I honestly think we’d need millions of leaflets and thousands of people to distribute them, and it would need to be part of a much wider co-ordinated campaign to re-educate the masses.

91384 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Adam, replying to Julian, 1, #409 of 1104 🔗

“…but I honestly think we’d need millions of leaflets”

Don’t agree. If everyone who comes across a leaflet in a carpark that signs it subsequently shares it online,…. and so on…

“…thousands of people to distribute them….”

What are we on this website for? To sit at our computers and moan about it to each other on here in the vein hope some millionaire sponsor comes along to spearhead the campaign, or to actually do something? It’s a simple, proactive thing to do, and might just raise publicity of the petition.

91393 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Adam, 4, #410 of 1104 🔗

I am not saying it won’t do any good, just that in order for the issue to have the kind of profile it needs to make a real difference, more resources are needed than we can muster here. Our best hope is to persuade those who have access to the resources to at least sow the seeds to under-write it, a bit like Simon Dolan did with his legal case.

91396 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Julian, 8, #411 of 1104 🔗

My only point of order would be that, even if it hits 100,000 signatures (the level required for a debate in Parliament) the debate will be a farce and nothing will happen. I signed, to vent my frustration, but my expectations are low.

91482 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to Adam, 1, #412 of 1104 🔗

If each person takes just one small step. That surely can help. I agree about the moaning. I agree there’s plenty to I moan about. I think we should moan and do! 😊

91508 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Adam, #413 of 1104 🔗

Nothing to stop you from trying it locally, Adam.
Let us know how it goes. Lead by example.

91465 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Julian, 3, #414 of 1104 🔗

Most people just aren’t that involved in politics in that way.”

… or as e e cummings wrote it ‘mostpeople’. An expression of the compliant frame of mind that, in the end, generates the dictator – because waking up is too much trouble and interferes with the shopping.

I don’t think that I’ve ever felt quite so despairing of political intelligence.

I’ve never minded opposition or antagonistic views – but what I can’t stand is the sort of dumb inactivity that has now brought about it’s own apotheosis :

“I’m not interested in politics”

“I never vote”

“They’re all the same”

In a past life – out canvassing – such were the only individuals I was happy to insult re. their apparent back problems (getting off it).

Well – such tossers have now got the world they wanted and, indeed, ‘they’ are indeed now ‘all the same’ – to the extent that you can’t tell the difference between H M Government and Opposition in the biggest constitutional crisis of my lifetime.

Beam me up, Scottie!

91472 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to RickH, 2, #415 of 1104 🔗

But when people see an issue they think is important enough, where they actually think their activity can make a difference, large numbers are prepared to get up and make that difference. Brexit was an example – I do not use it to antagonise you, but to show what can be achieved. Because “they are all the same”, people who believed it was necessary to get out of the oncoming European superstate were forced to go outside the mainstream political structures and organise separately, create new parties, and support them in the grindingly unrewarding fptp system to the point where they could force the mainstream party MPs and ultimately party leaders to take their views seriously.

And they got off their arses and they made it happen. They did so in the face of ridicule in the beginning for being quixotic fringe nutters, ridicule and hatred in the middle for being “racist” thisorthat-phobes and “little Englanders”, and finally hatred at the end for overturning the EU consensus.

You don’t like their politics, but you should respect at least what they represent, in that sense.

And perhaps it can be done against the current consensus.

The real issue is that we all hope the coronapanic will never last long enough (decades) for the process to be worth following, though clearly the consequences will.

91546 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Mark, 2, #416 of 1104 🔗

I’m afraid that Brexit isn’t a good example. It was a campaign backed by a large media propaganda push and Big Investment looking to make a fast buck – not the imagined popular movement. It had big money behind it, and was an example of a split establishment, and genuinely contested issue. It wasn’t a grass-roots campaign emerging against the odds at all.

This is actually the opposite situation. In this case, there is no alternative view allowed to get through : the media is solid in its support (check out the contrast with the BBC’s coverage of Brexit). The big data/social media outfits are also operating on-line censorship. There is no substantive political opposition, and the brain-washing operation is immense in terms of generating an incontinent fear amongst the populace.

That’s what’s so f.ing sinister.

91575 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to RickH, 1, #417 of 1104 🔗

No you are just wrong on that. You are confusing general euroscepticism (mostly about negotiating better terms within the EU) with actual advocacy of leaving the EU (or holding a referendum on it). There was always plenty of scepticism around, but virtually nobody was willing to back actually seriously trying to leave, once Labour had switched to being pro-EU,making the entire political establishment pro-membership. Goldsmith brought big money in for one campaign, and various papers and Murdoch himself were generally sceptical, but there was little or no open establishment support for actually leaving. Advocates for leaving were openly ridiculed.

As far as leaving is concerned, the position was similar to now if there were a big backer willing to fund an anti-lockdown party. I believe there would be one, if people did not generally assume that lockdown is time limited, and in that event you’d get papers like the Telegraph, Mail, Express and the Spectator giving more support for lockdown scepticism than there was support for actually leaving the EU back in the days of the Referendum Party and after its disappearance when leaving the EU disappeared into the fringes again with no major parties supporting it and no big backers..

92041 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Mark, #418 of 1104 🔗

Well, I have to agree with RickH in so far as Vote Leave did have backers as well as grassroots support. This time around, so far the campaign is small-scale. Hoping that will change soon when enough rich and powerful sceptics conclude they are screwed anyway and they might as well go all-in.

92100 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Julian, #419 of 1104 🔗

Very different timescale. I’m not talking about the referendum campaign, I’m taking about the long campaign, from when the Labour Party turned pro-Europe in the 1980s, and while there was plenty of euroscepticism around it was all about getting a better deal out of Europe, and there was basically zero support for the idea of actually leaving the EU . Those arguing for it were dismissed as cranks, even more than coronasceptics today. There was a brief period of credibility when Goldsmith took it up and set up the Referendum Party, but that lapsed again after Blair got in, for quite a few years.

We need a corona Goldsmith now, for sure. And I am pretty confident there would be one if there were a widespread belief that the current panic is likely to endure for years.

91505 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to RickH, 1, #420 of 1104 🔗

“A democracy is run by those who care
For those who don’t care”

91709 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Julian, 1, #421 of 1104 🔗

Where’s Paul McCartney, Mick Jagger?

91718 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to richard riewer, #422 of 1104 🔗

Rather enjoying sitting in their LA mansions sitting on sofas made of huge piles of cash, thank you very much.

92038 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to richard riewer, #423 of 1104 🔗

Suspect McCartney is 100% pro-narrative, Jagger too media savvy to say what he really thinks
Almost no celebs on our side, openly

91410 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Adam, 3, #424 of 1104 🔗

🤣 🤣 🤣 They won’t read it or take any notice……

91412 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Adam, replying to Winston Smith, #425 of 1104 🔗

Why not? Wouldn’t you?

91436 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Adam, 3, #426 of 1104 🔗

The government won’t read any petitions in this scenario 🙄

91442 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Adam, replying to Winston Smith, #427 of 1104 🔗

I thought you meant people reading the petitions on the windscreens would take no notice– it’s no different to sharing it online, except they would encounter the petition in the context in which it is aimed — i.e. while wearing masks. Agree that the government would take no notice, but it’s an indicator of the nation’s mood. As the petition stands at the moment, it suggests that the nation is happy to succumb to the mask wearing, but I refuse to believe that all those people who were not wearing masks the day before mask day suddenly changed their minds about masks overnight. And as people have happily sucked up to it so far, it won’t be long before the government mandates it in other places unless there is an indication that the public mood is turning against it.

91454 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Adam, 2, #428 of 1104 🔗

The ‘nation’s mood’ is one of bovine compliance. (Although that probably is insulting to cows who at least provide something of use)

91455 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Adam, replying to RickH, #429 of 1104 🔗

Well we’d better just roll over on our backs, quit moaning and accept that we’re fucked then hadn’t we?

91458 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Adam, 1, #430 of 1104 🔗

I’m not accepting anything, though we probably are.

The petition in and of itself isn’t going to change govt policy, but it’s a useful barometer of public feeling

Ideally we’d have the resources to commission professional opinion polls that countered the rubbish that gets quoted in the MSM, because the govt does worry about public opinion

I guess my point is maybe at least one part of our energy ought to into trying to get a coalition of people with relevant contacts, resources and money together

91480 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ AngloWelshDragon, replying to Julian, 2, #431 of 1104 🔗

These petitions do more harm then good when we can only drum up 29000 signatures and the other side can drum up hundreds of thousands. Petitions like this are driven by social media and twitter and Facebook are hostile to our cause.

91474 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ AngloWelshDragon, replying to Adam, 3, #432 of 1104 🔗

We are fucked. We are in the minority. Most people take the path of least resistance which is compliance. Small minorities on either end become either collaborators or resistors but the majority are happy to “go along to get along”.

91475 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Adam, 3, #433 of 1104 🔗

Your energy is exactly what is needed, but you need to find a couple of like-minded people preferably local to you and just start doing it.

91485 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Adam, replying to Mark, #434 of 1104 🔗

Thank you Mark.

91491 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Adam, #435 of 1104 🔗

Welcome. Perhaps a post in the forums indicating your region might attract an activist response? Though activity is still quite low there, I think.

91512 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Mark, #436 of 1104 🔗

We’re working on it. KBF forum has a section where you can get in touch with those in your local area. Several get-togethers have successfully been arranged. Go check it out.
https://www.keepbritainfree.com/forum/kbf-local

91654 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Che Strazio, replying to Mark, #437 of 1104 🔗

?

92021 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Che Strazio, #438 of 1104 🔗

??

91525 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Adam, 1, #439 of 1104 🔗

Well – I’m not going to roll over, and I’m not criticizing your desire to do something – but neither do I have any illusions about the hill that we have to climb in order to face down these totalitarian impositions.

I do think that cars make bill-boards, and stickers are worth a go – just a bit of a drip feed where imagination can be given a run.

Even without willing assent, there is a log-jam of simple compliance from people who don’t want to make waves.

91471 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ AngloWelshDragon, replying to RickH, 2, #440 of 1104 🔗

Indeed. It’s nice to see that there are people like Adam who retain faith in the British people but I’m afraid my faith has died. Bovine compliance sums it up. People don’t sign it because they are either zealously enthusiastic about masks or – and I think this is the majority view – they hold the view that “it’s only a mask, you only have to wear it for half an hour once or twice a week”. I’m sorry but I just don’t believe that we are going to win this. I don’t believe the British can be saved from their blind march towards servitude. I’m no longer sure they even deserve saving.

91511 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to AngloWelshDragon, 1, #441 of 1104 🔗

I thik people realise that petitions to government, like general elections, make little difference.

91530 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Adam, replying to Cheezilla, #442 of 1104 🔗

I’d argue that the petitions to implement a full lockdown back in March certainly made a difference on government policy!! There were several, and signed by hundreds of thousands.

91515 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ RickH, replying to AngloWelshDragon, #443 of 1104 🔗

I wish I didn’t agree. But I see no sign anywhere of a determined and organized substantial resistance to current patent absurdities.

Fear is the Key.

91473 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Adam, 2, #444 of 1104 🔗

The only thing that would work be mass civil disobedience or rioting. And I’m not seeing any appetite for that, working from home, furloughs etc.

Human behaviour is governed by pursuit of pleasure and avoidance of pain (fear of pain).

91492 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Adam, replying to Winston Smith, #445 of 1104 🔗

I don’t disagree, but on the other hand we are not going to garner any support for change by simply posting amongst ourselves here either. The supermarket windscreen petition posting was just an idea of doing that — although judging by these replies, perhaps maybe not a good one (though I still might do it anyway). As Julian said, ideally we’d have the backing of people with money, but in reality we don’t. Which means donkey work for us, if we’re serious about the cause.

92043 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Adam, #446 of 1104 🔗

Apologies Adam I didn’t want to have a go.

Every little helps.

I am optimistic that more concerted opposition will start to form.

Meantime, I know many on this forum are active in other forums and areas, on social media, media comment pages, in their work and community, with their friends, in putting out the message – I certainly am.

Posting here is about moral support, information sharing and honing arguments

I wish you luck

91503 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Adam, 2, #447 of 1104 🔗

The most important thing is to be seen without one.

91536 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Cheezilla, 1, #448 of 1104 🔗

Agree Cheese. 3 or 4 others sans mask in our Waitrose today, best since 24th July.

91652 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Adam, #449 of 1104 🔗

It hasn’t put pressure on government. They have replied saying ‘go away’.

91639 ▶▶▶▶ Che Strazio, replying to Adam, #450 of 1104 🔗

Tell the lady I met the other night! She survived 2 heart attacks, has COPD…29 medications and her husband is in a worse condition.
It’s very Simples: I don’t need to wear a mask/She didn’t need to! It’s the law…Simples enough for you?!
We don’t need to persuade the govt. into anything in a democracy!

91373 ▶▶ Quernus, replying to Adam, 3, #451 of 1104 🔗

The government have just responded to what is (I think) the main petition, Repeal the decision to implement compulsory face coverings in English shops. Their reply tends to suggest that this was their plan all along. I penned a short analysis of what the government’s position has been throughout, and you can read this on Facebook here (I created an alter ego just to post my thoughts and helpful articles about what’s going on).

91426 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Adam, 4, #452 of 1104 🔗

It’s not attracting signatures because everyone knows that the petitions are pointless.

91433 ▶▶▶ Adam, replying to JohnB, 1, #453 of 1104 🔗

Even more pointless not signing it.

91463 ▶▶ Allan Gay, replying to Adam, 2, #454 of 1104 🔗

I no longer see any point in signing an online petition.

If deemed admissible, it must obtain 100,000 signatures for it to be considered for debate in Parliament.

Admissible? Considered? Debate?

91464 ▶▶▶ Adam, replying to Allan Gay, #455 of 1104 🔗

What’s the point in not signing it?

91478 ▶▶▶▶ Allan Gay, replying to Adam, 4, #456 of 1104 🔗

The same as signing it, I fear, Adam.
I think the petition procedure is intended to give people the illusion that our masters are listening.
They are not.

91537 ▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Allan Gay, #457 of 1104 🔗

Hope you meant they are not our masters, Allan ?

🙂

91552 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Allan Gay, replying to JohnB, 1, #458 of 1104 🔗

I’d like to think that they are not, John, but I am not sanguine, given their dismal record over the last five months.

They are deaf and blind to all remonstrance.

91282 richard riewer, replying to richard riewer, #459 of 1104 🔗

Matt Handily Cocks Up Again.
Over fifty years ago I was walking past a secondhand bookshop in Ottawa, Canada. There was a paperback book prominently shown just inside the window and the title of the book was ‘Top Cock Comes Again’.

91309 ▶▶ DavidC, replying to richard riewer, 1, #460 of 1104 🔗

Ah, those wonderful innocent days when one could be gay…!

DavidC

91593 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to richard riewer, #461 of 1104 🔗

But he is good at throwing people under the bus

91290 mrjoeaverage, replying to mrjoeaverage, 27, #462 of 1104 🔗

I believe I have cracked the case in my brain as to what is going on. Apologies if this has already been mentioned and discussed, but anyway, I feel clearer in my head now I have what I feel, is an understanding of the situation.

This is the full summary of my opinion anyway, for what it’s worth, and it is surprisingly simple.

It starts on 19 December 2019 when Bill Gates tweets: “What’s next for our foundation? I’m particularly excited about what the next year could mean for one of the best buys in global health: vaccines.”

The virus then starts circulating in China before being sent worldwide.

China comes up with a lockdown idea, which terrifies those looking from afar, but as time passes, suddenly the media think, hey, should we be doing that? You see something shocking for long enough, and it becomes normal. It’s all in the timing.

China then supposedly demonstrates that lockdown works, and hence, it is an accepted statement of fact as a deterrent, notwithstanding that the Far East may have substantial past immunity from SARS.

It has been published that we were supposedly not fearful enough in the UK, so they had to push that with lockdowns and fearful slogans. We had to respect our masters and clap them.

If face masks worked:
1. We wouldn’t have so many scientific tests from the last hundred years saying they offer minimal protection unless in, say, a surgery environment.
2. It would have been difficult for the virus to travel across the world from China, a predominantly face mask wearing country historically.
3. The Far East wouldn’t have such a history of high levels of cold and flu.

But what they do create is fear, and power and fear go hand in hand.

The government is acting bizarrely, but to conclude that they are stupid is I think missing the point.

Everyone asks, why introduce face masks now? When there are 600 people left in hospital in England?

Well….Covid has pretty much disappeared, so they need to up the fear levels, and get back to what Bill Gates tweeted about at the start. They need to ensure conformity, and keep the silent steps moving towards the promised land.

To think the Government cares about our health I think is naive.

So, face masks buy the Government time to reach cold and flu season around October. Quarantines for returning travellers – exactly the same.

Face masks can trap the virus and increase the viral load, and so what we will likely see, is quite possibly the worst cold and flu season on record, given mass conformity with face masks.

The face masks will cause this, and this will be termed the “second wave” as the coronavirus testing will pick a lot of these up as “cases.”

And then as if by magic, in around December, a vaccine will come out to save us all, change our DNA, and do whatever else it was designed to do. A year of world Government’s actions has completely brainwashed a large percentage of the world. You have to hand it to them, that really is an amazing achievement. Superb.

Coincidence, by plan….
Yes, the Government are stupid, but are they “that” stupid, or is there a lot of deflection tactics taking place?

Power, fear and greed. And the effects on human behaviour.

It is in equal measures scary, yet fascinating, though not in a good way.

91306 ▶▶ PastImperfect, replying to mrjoeaverage, 8, #463 of 1104 🔗

Hydroxychloroquine kills the need for a vaccine and we should ensure that the coronaphobes get the message.

91308 ▶▶ DavidC, replying to mrjoeaverage, 8, #464 of 1104 🔗

Bear in mind that masks, in a surgical setting, are worn for the benefit of the patient, not the wearer.

DavidC

91330 ▶▶ Julian, replying to mrjoeaverage, 32, #465 of 1104 🔗

The introduction of mask compulsion by governments across the world, with the attendant lies by them and scientists about the science changes, has been one of the most despicable acts of this whole sorry business, and one that makes it obvious beyond doubt that they are not motivated by public health concerns.

91342 ▶▶▶ Two-Six, replying to Julian, 7, #466 of 1104 🔗

Yep

91333 ▶▶ Two-Six, replying to mrjoeaverage, 21, #467 of 1104 🔗

It’s no cock-up, it’s not a mistake, it’s not bad management, it’s not because people involved are stupid. Not the main drivers of this anyway. The vaccine industry are just one group hitching their wagons onto the Corona Project, launched by The World Economic Forum and other major globalist groups.

Big banks, governments and pressure groups are also the main players. A small number of people knew this was coming and paved the way. An army of useful idiots carried the flag for them. These people stand to become incredible wealthy and powerful.

There has been a corporate global coup d’etat of all world governments by globalist parties using a virus in the form of seasonal colds and flu to be the main driver or “a major catalyst for social change” that they need to re-build the world into this new carbon zero utopia.

A global re-set, a new normal, the 4th industrial revolution. A global technocracy, a new global health and education system. An end to national GDP. Centralised control of all resources.

Nothing short of total destruction of almost everything will do. Order from chaos. As they say.

Call me crazy if you like.
Or it might just be that Boris is an idiot.

91367 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Two-Six, 5, #468 of 1104 🔗

Boris is doing a good impression of being an idiot. Whether he is or not, he is playing along with the forces you describe, whether knowingly or not. So far he shows no backbone. If things are as you say, maybe there will come a point where he realises he’s been had too and stops liking the game, and pushes back.

It’s a forlorn hope.

91451 ▶▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Julian, 7, #469 of 1104 🔗

Mr Toad has never pushed back – he’s just paddled (with a silver spoon) his canoe ‘Narcissus’ up whichever creek might lead to self-promotion or personal advancement.

91379 ▶▶▶ Simon Dutton, replying to Two-Six, 8, #470 of 1104 🔗

Yep. It all started in 1913, with a secret meeting (i.e. a conspiracy) that led to the establishment of the Federal Reserve.

Governments in the “developed” world (and not a few of the others) borrow from central and other banks; Britain’s own central bank, the Bank of England, was established in 1694. It was privately owned (just as the Fed is today) until nationalised by the Atlee government in 1946.

As with most loans, interest is payable. Since governments always spend more that they can collect as tax, borrowings keep increasing. Eventually a hefty proportion of the tax burden goes to paying off the bankers. In effect the population become little better than serfs.

Now we add to the mix the wonderful notion of fractional reserve banking. A retail bank is permitted to lend, for the sake of this example, £10 for every £1 it has on deposit. (10% is the usually quoted figure, though in some cases it has gone as low as 2%.) Consider the case of a man who wants to borrow £1000 to buy a second-hand dinghy. The bank must have £100 on deposit; it gives him a bit of paper that says “this is worth £1000.” In other words, it has just created money out of thin air. “Money as debt” is the usual phrase.

The man buys his dinghy and the seller puts the money in his account with the same bank. Now the notional sum on deposit is £1100. Someone else comes along and wants a loan … the bank can now legally lend £11,000, creating £10,900 from the original £100 deposit. Meanwhile the borrower is paying interest on his loan. If he loses his job and defaults, the bank keeps all the interest he has paid and takes the dinghy bank, whereupon it can sell it to someone else for, say, another £1000. Turning off the money-supply so that their chums can foreclose on assets is one of the many profitable pastimes of central banks.

This is much simplified; the world of finance has become fiendishly complicated, with bad loans packaged up with others so that they look good — it was the derivatives market that finally crashed the system in 2008.

Since 2008 nothing serious has been done to repair the system. In fact most of the measures taken have made things much, much worse — zero interest rates have distorted the markets beyond recognition. By the end of 2019 we were heading for the mother of all crashes.

Going on in parallel were plans by Davos Man for a one-world government, with himself in charge of course. He dreams of a much reduced population living under communism, servicing the AI, presided over by an Inner Party enjoying unimaginable luxury and freedom — in a greening planet rid at last of factory chimneys, strip-malls and suburbs. The climate change hoax is part of that, the idea being to destroy industry and hence to crash the world economy.

But then some bright spark at Davos, or at one of those Bilderberger meetings, came up with this virus wheeze. It ticks all the globalists’ boxes: depopulation, mass surveillance of those left alive (that’s what 5G is for), destruction of industry, the lot! Best of all, it shifts the blame for the mother of all economic crashes onto Mother Nature.

They even rehearsed it last year. Then along came a suitably new virus (assuming it exists at all); they seized upon it and off they went. Our politicians are just there for theatre. They take instructions; they have no power of their own. Most of the prominent ones are likely prone to blackmail (e.g. Epstein). Johnson, Starmer, whoever; they’re empty suits. The exception was Corbyn, a naive promulgating sixth-form politics who, as soon as he got anywhere near No 10, was quickly taught how the world works.

This is the background to what is happening. The rest of it is just noise, pernicious and evil noise, but noise just the same: the dehumanising, the use of fear, the softening up of the population for more and more compliance. Unfortunately I think it more than possible that they will get away with it, the education system having been deliberately dumbed down since the 1970s by the same people. There is still a window of opportunity to stop them, but it is getting narrower by the day.

91408 ▶▶▶▶ Darryl, replying to Simon Dutton, 1, #471 of 1104 🔗

The Corbett Report has a good video on the Federal Reserve, the system certainly seems rigged to the benefit of those at the top, since 2000 it has been pretty much irrepairable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IJeemTQ7Vk

91544 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Darryl, 1, #472 of 1104 🔗

JF Kennedy was going to abolish it – and look what happened to him!

91567 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Darryl, #473 of 1104 🔗

I’ve just discovered that Griffin has also written a book about the Federal Reserve. The customer reviews say it’s meticulously researched and essential reading.

The Creature from Jekyll Island: A Second Look at the Federal Reserve by G. Edward Griffin.

91646 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Cheezilla, #474 of 1104 🔗

Excellent read. Digested it years ago

91416 ▶▶▶▶ Two-Six, replying to Simon Dutton, 2, #475 of 1104 🔗

I couldn’t have put it better myself, good job.

91526 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Simon Dutton, #476 of 1104 🔗

Bollocks to it all starting in 1913.

Rest of the analysis is good. 🙂

91543 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to JohnB, 2, #477 of 1104 🔗

If you read the second half of Edward Griffin’s book World without cancer , I think you’ll find a lot of the early history of this. 1913 is likely correct.

91644 ▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Simon Dutton, #478 of 1104 🔗

Brilliant analysis. Think it might be useful if you turned it into a longer paper

91658 ▶▶▶▶▶ Simon Dutton, replying to Bella, 3, #479 of 1104 🔗

Thanks to you and others for the kind comments. I find it depressing to think about these things too deeply; I was educated long ago, at a time when we were encouraged to ask questions. When I look around me now I fear for the future, especially for the very young, who have been left so poorly equipped to defend themselves.

91402 ▶▶▶ Darryl, replying to Two-Six, 6, #480 of 1104 🔗

When I see the media talk of life not going back to normal without a digital health passport and lots of articles featuring payment via facial recognition https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/story/2020-08-14/facial-recognition-payment-technology I can’t see how people can’t at least be suspicious of the big technology companies and big pharma. Also there is the relentless drive of AI and doing things remotely / fewer human interactions – such as Doctors appointments. It looks like we are getting the fourth industrial revolution the elites want irrespective of if the people want it.

91687 ▶▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Darryl, 1, #481 of 1104 🔗

The Media are stupid. Why would they want all that for themselves, their children and everybody else’s children? Is someone spiking the water cooler?

91444 ▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Two-Six, 2, #482 of 1104 🔗

Johnson is certainly an idiot – in the same sense as Thomas in ‘Old Harry’s Game’.

But he’s not the main source of the effluvium.

91439 ▶▶ RickH, replying to mrjoeaverage, 4, #483 of 1104 🔗

You have made many good points – whatever the detail.

I am temperamentally resistant to conspiracy explanations. But, as I’ve suggested before, if you rein the concept back to simply spotlight the power of corporate money and its global networks, then much falls into place.

All that’s then needed in the mix is a substantial leavening of plain quotidian dimness and stupidity to act as a catalyst and helper to the process.

Certainly, the evidence is massive that this confected scam can be most clearly explained by these elements – particularly with the linkage of global capital to the control of a media that has now become largely a monotone of propaganda.

This massive societal crash can’t be explained just by coincidence and incompetence.

“When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.”

91528 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to RickH, 1, #484 of 1104 🔗

Conspiracy theorist !

🙂

91312 Sarigan, replying to Sarigan, 14, #485 of 1104 🔗

42 peer-reviewed studies that show masks are neither safe nor effective:

https://www.primarydoctor.org/masks-not-effect

91423 ▶▶ Two-Six, replying to Sarigan, 3, #486 of 1104 🔗

I sent that link to my MP. Pointless.

91469 ▶▶ AngloWelshDragon, replying to Sarigan, 5, #487 of 1104 🔗

Thanks for the link. I have sent it to Vistaprint with whom I am in a furious email exchange over their promotion of face masks for children as young as 4.

91487 ▶▶ Aremen, replying to Sarigan, #488 of 1104 🔗

Any thoughts, folks, about sending this link to your local Chief Constable, thereby putting your local force on notice that well-informed mask-rejectors have solid science-based evidence that wearing a mask is detrimental to their health? Thus, attempts to impose fixed rate penalties would be a minefield for the rozzers.
Is rhere any way this could be counterproductive?

91313 Lisa from Toronto, replying to Lisa from Toronto, 17, #489 of 1104 🔗

Dr. Denis Rancourt has written an update to his Masks Don’t Work analysis of the scientific literature and takes direct aim at the “a growing body of evidence” in support of masks bullshit. He goes into a fair bit of detail on his background (PhD in physics) as he has been dismissed many times because he’s not a medical doctor (as if your run-of-the-mill MD knows anything about virus particles). Nonetheless, it’s a great resource and scathing indictment of what is passing for “science” these days.

https://www.rcreader.com/sites/default/files/Denis-Rancourt-Face-masks-lies-damn-lies-and-public-health%3Dofficials-a-growing-body-of-evidence-August-03-2020.pdf

91591 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Lisa from Toronto, 1, #490 of 1104 🔗

It is always so funny (if not extremely sad) that they think doctors know a lot about health and that other scientifically trained people don’t. Sadly doctors do not know much and most of them do not look at the bigger picture.

91594 ▶▶▶ Tom Blackburn, replying to Victoria, 2, #491 of 1104 🔗

Drs know sweet FA about wellbeing otherwise there wouldn’t be social workers.

91756 ▶▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Tom Blackburn, 1, #492 of 1104 🔗

Social workers know fuck all about anything.

91609 ▶▶ Bella, replying to Lisa from Toronto, 1, #493 of 1104 🔗

MDs/GPs know diddly-squat about masks and PPE (Actually diddly-squat about a lot. GPs that is)

91711 ▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Lisa from Toronto, 2, #494 of 1104 🔗

Do you think that Prime Minister Trudeau cares? Doubtful. Ford as well. Closet Fascists.

91777 ▶▶▶ Lisa from Toronto, replying to richard riewer, 1, #495 of 1104 🔗

They aren’t even in the closet! They’re out in the open about it and that’s what is so scary.

91321 Fiat, replying to Fiat, #496 of 1104 🔗

Indeed. A tale for our time.

91322 ▶▶ Fiat, replying to Fiat, #497 of 1104 🔗

Oops. Responding to War of the Worlds thread….

91323 MadJock1, replying to MadJock1, 6, #498 of 1104 🔗

A Sunday afternoon thought – or ravings of a madman perhaps. Over the last few, increasingly strange and depressing, months I have kept remembering a short story I had to study in school English classes forty odd years ago. It was called “The Machine Stops” and the author was E.M.Forster (Room With a View, Howards End, A Passage to India etc). At the time I thought it was a complete load of clap-trap although I now realise I was looking at it too literally and missing a good bit of the metaphorical significance. It was written in 1909 but is a frighteningly accurate prediction of the sort of World we now find ourselves living in and where, ultimately, that could end if we let it. Although I dismissed the story at the time I now realise it was one of the things that actually taught me to think and question the information life has presented me with. I really wish it was part of the national curriculum now. For anyone interested an on-line copy can be found here :

 https://www.ele.uri.edu/faculty/vetter/Other-stuff/The-Machine-Stops.pdf

The story does not end well for society in general but, perhaps, there is some hope for those that allow themselves to be outcasts – thereby preserving their freedom.

91336 ▶▶ Tenchy, replying to MadJock1, 1, #499 of 1104 🔗

Thanks for the link. I too remember it from my school days. I’ll give it another go.

91387 ▶▶ Jane in France, replying to MadJock1, 8, #500 of 1104 🔗

I also read “The Machine Stops” at school and didn’t really see the point. I recently reread it and can hardly believe that an Oxford don in 1909 can have been so prophetic – people safe in their rooms, communicating by a version of Zoom, fat, unhealthy bodies kept alive by artificial food and medicine, everyone afraid to touch each other, discussing second-hand ideas, happy in the belief that the machine will look after them. When the hero eventually decides to see if there is a world outside he gets fit by walking round and round his room – bit like people running marathons on their balconies during house arrest.

91397 ▶▶ mjr, replying to MadJock1, 1, #501 of 1104 🔗

as mentioned yesterday films Idiocracy or Wall-E show the same society,

91404 ▶▶ John Stone, replying to MadJock1, #502 of 1104 🔗

Thank you for reminding me of this.

91445 ▶▶ Laura Suckling, replying to MadJock1, 5, #503 of 1104 🔗

I remember it well. In fact, I have recalled that and other stories and books I also read over 40 years ago, due to recent events. Not ravings of a madman at all, simply assessing our current situation and truly appreciating significant truths.

Many brilliant thinkers have predicted human suffering through fiction, that have subsequently occurred in reality.

Currently, the writer of ‘Black Mirror’ will not be writing a further series due to many of his dystopian ideas happening in real life.

So, I await the arrival of my Soma.

91555 ▶▶ annie, replying to MadJock1, 1, #504 of 1104 🔗

It’s been cited here before.
Eerily accurate in its understanding of antisocial distancing.

91577 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to MadJock1, #505 of 1104 🔗

It’s very relevant to the current time.
If you’d rather read it on Kindle, it’s only 99p.

91332 Lisa from Toronto, replying to Lisa from Toronto, 12, #506 of 1104 🔗

I’ve made reference to her before, but if you’re interested in the nurse who volunteered in NYC during the worst of the crisis and who blew the whistle on what was going on, here’s the link. She has now written a book. I watched an interview with her a while back and saw some of the secret recordings and footage she took and it was truly frightening. Of course they’re now trying to strip her of her licence. So if you want to know why the death toll in NYC was so high, check this out. Medical malpractice doesn’t even begin to describe it.

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2020/08/16/coronavirus-nyc-elmhurst-hospital-erin-olszewski.aspx

91356 ▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Lisa from Toronto, 1, #507 of 1104 🔗

She was on The Richie Allen Show not too long ago.

Anyone here ever read Ibsen’s ‘Enemy of the People’?

91603 ▶▶▶ Bella, replying to richard riewer, #508 of 1104 🔗

Yep. It was also the blueprint for ‘Jaws.’

91353 richard riewer, replying to richard riewer, #509 of 1104 🔗

Do NHS Angels have wings?

comment image

91553 ▶▶ annie, replying to richard riewer, 1, #510 of 1104 🔗

Forked tails and horns.

91385 alw, replying to alw, 14, #511 of 1104 🔗

This deserves a mention:

Robin Monotti Graziadei
@robinmonotti
· 14 Aug
Italy’s PM is now officially under investigation for enforcing a nationwide lockdown in Italy against the advice of Italy’s scientific committee
https://repubblica.it/politica/2020/08/13/news/inchiesta_coronavirus_avvisi_garanzia_conte_e_ministri-264550317/“

91401 ▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to alw, 24, #512 of 1104 🔗

I know another Prime Minister who initiated a nationwide lockdown under threat of coercion, also against the advice of his scientific committee. In the UK. And assisted by the First Ministers of Scotland and Wales.

Bring it on!!

91440 ▶▶ stewart, replying to alw, 6, #513 of 1104 🔗

Double edged sword. Great if he’s ever formally charged (unlikely). But if he is cleared (much more likely), it will be have the perverse effect of validating the criminal behaviour of the Italian government and all the other governments that copied them.

91388 Tim Bidie, 5, #514 of 1104 🔗

Although it is, by now, abundantly clear to everyone who has been paying attention that the minor common cold coronavirus epidemic is over in Europe, it is going to take until October 2020 to demonstrate that cheap and safe preventative treatment is readily available and that a cheap safe vaccine is also readily available:

A double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled clinical trial (NCT04303507) will be initiated in May 2020 to evaluate the potential prevention of COVID-19 by chloroquine at a loading dose of 10 mg base/kg, followed by 150 mg of chloroquine base (250 mg chloroquine phosphate salt) daily for 3 months in 10 000 healthcare workers or other individuals at significant risk. An average of 200 participants per site will be recruited in 50 sites. The number of episodes of symptomatic COVID-19, severity of symptoms, duration of illness, number of symptomatic respiratory infections and number of asymptomatic infections with SARS-CoV-2 will be recorded and compared in the subjects randomised to chloroquine or placebo during 5 months of follow-up.’

https://europepmc.org/article/pmc/pmc7152897

‘It is hypothesized that BCG vaccination is linked to a less severe manifestation of SARS-CoV-2 in the countries that have it on their regular vaccination schedules. In a study preprint published on MedRxiv.org, a research group states that BCG vaccination is a potential new tool in the fight against COVID-19 [3].

Murdoch Children’s Research Institute has organized BRACE, a Phase 3, two-group, multicenter, open-label, randomized, controlled trial of up to 4170 health care workers in Australian hospitals to determine if BCG vaccination reduces the incidence and severity of COVID-19 during the 2020 pandemic [4]. Primary results are expected in October 2020’

https://www.lifespan.io/road-maps/the-covid-19-roadmap/murdoch-childrens-research-institute-bcg-vaccine

91424 Tenchy, replying to Tenchy, 1, #515 of 1104 🔗

Can someone explain the testing protocol for the PCR test? As I understand it, you have a swab rammed up your nose and another poked down the back of your throat. Does a positive result constitute both of these swabs detecting virus material, or does just one of them count? Also, if a test is deemed to be positive, is it followed up with another test to guard against false positives? If so, and both tests are positive, does this count as just one positive test?

91441 ▶▶ Liam, replying to Tenchy, 5, #516 of 1104 🔗

Personally I have a severe antipathy to anything being shoved up my nose. Another reason not to get tested.

91607 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Liam, 7, #517 of 1104 🔗

Here’s what a nurse commented on Hitchens’ blog:

I often wonder why I am supposed to swirl covid swab for 6-10 seconds deeply into patient’s throat/nose, whereas similar MRSA swab is done in the less officious manner. It’s almost like digging for something which is not there.

91606 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Tenchy, #518 of 1104 🔗
91622 ▶▶▶ Two-Six, replying to Cheezilla, 2, #519 of 1104 🔗

WOW looks nasty and dangerous. Didn’t doctors say never stick anything bigger than your elbow up your nose/in your ear/up your…

91624 ▶▶▶▶ Two-Six, replying to Two-Six, 1, #520 of 1104 🔗

sometime soon somebody is going to get a nasal swab rammed up their brain box when their idiot big brother, retarded mate or dog bumps them mid swab.

91695 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Two-Six, #521 of 1104 🔗

comment image

I’d hardly call that running it around the inside of your nose!
Source = CDC

91683 ▶▶▶▶ Quernus, replying to Two-Six, #522 of 1104 🔗

Never stick anything smaller than your elbow, etc I think is the phrase, Two-Six 😉

91712 ▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Quernus, #523 of 1104 🔗

But _definitely_ don’t stick anything bigger then your elbow up your…

91427 percy openshaw, replying to percy openshaw, 21, #524 of 1104 🔗

The Daily Wokegraph has a tale to tell today. Apparently nine in ten – that’s right, a real soviet percentage for you – would support local lockdowns until a vaccine is found. Luckily, the vast majority of comments below the line treat the figure and the report with massive disdain.

91429 ▶▶ Adam, replying to percy openshaw, 8, #525 of 1104 🔗

Yeah, until it’s their town that is locked down

91438 ▶▶ Tenchy, replying to percy openshaw, 3, #526 of 1104 🔗

On the face of it, a miserable assessment of the non-thinking man’s views.

91453 ▶▶ A. Contrarian, replying to percy openshaw, 7, #527 of 1104 🔗

They probably asked them “Would you/your Granny rather die, or have a local lockdown?”. Pretty hard to answer that one any other way!

91602 ▶▶▶ Bella, replying to A. Contrarian, 4, #528 of 1104 🔗

My mother (eighties) would rather die than endure another lockdown. Not sure I’d want to live through another one either, though I’ll take some of the bastards with me.

91592 ▶▶ RickH, replying to percy openshaw, 1, #529 of 1104 🔗

The real ‘soviet’ technique is the use by the conservative government to use good old Stalinist ‘Terror’ as a technique for governance of the plebs..

91598 ▶▶ Bella, replying to percy openshaw, 4, #530 of 1104 🔗

Bulshit. Absolute bulshit. Funny how 9 out of 10 are not staying at home now when the weather is nice then

91691 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Bella, #531 of 1104 🔗

The people going out don’t read the DT.

91435 Keen Cook, replying to Keen Cook, 5, #532 of 1104 🔗

Folks. Every time I login I see one (more than) of you erudite posters mentions a significant book &/or classic text. Toby, could we have a page for all these wonderful references – sort of thinking person’s library – Kafka, Camus, Orwell & so many others?

91462 ▶▶ BJJ, replying to Keen Cook, 4, #533 of 1104 🔗

Hannah Arendt

91514 ▶▶▶ tonys, replying to BJJ, 7, #534 of 1104 🔗

The banality of evil, a phrase that comes back to me all the time when I watch news presenters . The way they terrified the population and continue to do so is simply evil.

91468 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Keen Cook, 3, #535 of 1104 🔗

That’s what the forum should be used for.

91520 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Keen Cook, 1, #536 of 1104 🔗

Needs a section on the forum, I would suggest.

91621 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Keen Cook, 2, #537 of 1104 🔗

I would also recommend Alexander Solzhenitsyn – The Gulag Archipelago and One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich.

91678 ▶▶▶ DressageRider, replying to Bart Simpson, 1, #538 of 1104 🔗

second that!

91681 ▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to DressageRider, #539 of 1104 🔗

I’m currently re-reading The Gulag Archipelago and One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich is next.

91689 ▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Keen Cook, 1, #540 of 1104 🔗

Start an online library. Go to the Gutenberg Project. They have lots of free texts, treatises, essays and books. I just downloaded a whole load of Schopenhauer last week.

91761 ▶▶ matt, replying to Keen Cook, 1, #541 of 1104 🔗

John Stuart Mill “On Liberty”. If you only read one book…
Edmund Burke “ Reflections on the Revolution in France: And on the Proceedings in Certain Societies in London Relative to that Event”

And for balance, John Locke “Leviathan”

After that, I wouldn’t bother reading anything else unless you’re prepared to go back to Plato and Aristotle.

91470 Tim Bidie, replying to Tim Bidie, 3, #542 of 1104 🔗

We knew that the idea of reinfection by covid 19 was arrant nonsense; more scaremongering. Now we have proof:

‘…with an overall attack rate of >85%, the lack of infection in the three individuals with neutralizing antibodies was statistically significant compared to the rest of the boat’s crew. Overall, our results provide the first direct evidence anti-SARS-CoV-2 neutralizing antibodies are protective against SARS-CoV-2 infection in humans.’

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.08.13.20173161v1.full.pdf&nbsp ;

91488 ▶▶ swedenborg, replying to Tim Bidie, #543 of 1104 🔗

Sorry can’t find the linked paper.Alternate link?

91728 ▶▶▶▶ swedenborg, replying to Tim Bidie, #545 of 1104 🔗

Thank you for the article. Understand that they are not going in to epidemiological details in this article. But it is puzzling why the outbreak started 18 days after departure as the crew was screened before departure. There is a discussion on 3 crew members having not neutralizing antibodies but weak other antibody that they might be incubating the disease but the authors claim they are more likely false serology pos..How did this outbreak start if they were all clear with tests before departure? And rather long incubation time? Do we have silent carriers activating like Hope-Simpson’s theory? There is another puzzling outbreak in an Argentinian ship supposedly screened pre departure where I think the outbreak occurred about 40 days later

91476 Tim Bidie, replying to Tim Bidie, 16, #546 of 1104 🔗

To summarise the whole ridiculous mask thing:

‘There is no evidence in the real world, either from countries or US states, that more mask wearing is associated with fewer cases. Why is that? Probably because of a combination of improper wear, not wearing them in the biggest locations for transmission, i.e., the household, touching the mask, seepage, and most importantly, just odds. No mask is perfect and sooner or later, if you are around the virus enough, you are going to be infected.’

Kevin Roche. ‘The Healthy skeptic’

91484 ▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Tim Bidie, 15, #547 of 1104 🔗

This assumes there’s any virus to catch. The mask argument is redundant and the mandate is nothing but a psy-op to keep us fearful and under control.

91574 ▶▶▶ RickH, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 5, #548 of 1104 🔗

You’ve got it in one.

The whole basis is total, illogical bollocks.

How the f. did the human species survive until the 21st C.?

91538 ▶▶ WhyNow, replying to Tim Bidie, 2, #549 of 1104 🔗

If you work in a big building or travel by public transport it is virtually impossible to avoid contact with infected surfaces. Doctors and the like need difficult routines to avoid cross-contamination.

91481 MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 8, #550 of 1104 🔗

Has anyone else tried to book a long-distance train journey recently? After the collapse of our plans to cycle to Welsh Wales across Cheshire (lack of campsites, sane pubs), we decided to take up our son’s invitation to visit him and other relatives in the South West in early September instead. I found a nearby campsite open and we looked at rail options. It was an eye-opener: National Rail Enquiries told me there were ‘no journeys’ to Bristol via Birmingham/return on Thursday 3 and Sunday 6 or Monday 7 September. It was not clear whether they didn’t exist or whether they were booked-up. Given that only about 1/4 of the average carriage is used it may be the latter.

We checked travelling via Newport only to be told that Wales only allows essential travel. I switched to X-Country’s site to check via Birmingham again and every time I changed the time the journey would disappear, then reappear, the costs kept changing (I know about the cookies thing) only to disappear completely leaving us no option to book anything.

We have now more-or-less given up and decided to hire a car. It will be more expensive but at least we won’t have to sit with the zombies all the way to Bristol and back but it will cut out the cycling part of our trip which we were looking forward to.

We have always believed in and supported public transport but it seems as if it has been thrown on the bonfire along with everything else. Anyone got any thoughts about this aspect of the ‘Great Green Reset’?

91560 ▶▶ Paul, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 6, #551 of 1104 🔗

The passenger rail companies have pretty much been nationalised now,they are being paid to run a certain level of service,they don’t really need any passengers,they still get paid.
The government is spending around £900M a month to pay the rail companies and the trains I see are always pretty much empty.
I and everyone I know will not travel by rail due the compulsory mask wearing,do away with that and I think passenger numbers will rise.
No-one in charge seems to have any interest in promoting public transport anymore,it actually seems they are trying to dissuade people from using it.

91642 ▶▶▶ Lili, replying to Paul, 2, #552 of 1104 🔗

Well that explains why they’re running empty but I haven’t read any stories about how they’re struggling.

92106 ▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Lili, #553 of 1104 🔗

Some were. Northern was nationalised at the beginning of the year and before that, can’t remember when, LNER was taken over.

91578 ▶▶ davews, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 3, #554 of 1104 🔗

I don’t know the exact journey you are trying to do but just looking at SWR’s site there are plenty of trains Bristol to/from Birmingham those days. They don’t offer any cheap advanced singles though, all full price. ‘Essential journeys only’ can be taken with a pinch of salt, I have never been challenged when that rule was in force in England.

92107 ▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to davews, #555 of 1104 🔗

Thanks. I’ll have a look but we’ve almost decided to go by car now.

91664 ▶▶ Sarigan, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, #556 of 1104 🔗

Welsh Wales 🤣 Autocorrect?

92108 ▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Sarigan, #557 of 1104 🔗

🙂

91486 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 19, #558 of 1104 🔗

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1294645063985836032.html

Yesterday I posted this very interesting thread on how Nigel Fergusson estimated the IFR in his predictions of the coming disaster which has been one of the two reasons for this disastrous response. There are two parts of Fergusson’s equation which gives the high deaths. First is the IFR which he estimated to 0.6 %. It seems really not so bad as the current IFR had been estimated to 0.3% or even 0.6%(like Asiatic flu). But there is the other part of equation which is even more important the herd immunity which he reckoned to be 80 % and many others think is more likely 20%.

 But even his estimation of IFR is a scandal as the thread above explains. They had from the Chinese an estimate of about 1023 deaths in Hubei population about 10 million. To calculate the IFR you must have an estimate how many infected (not really cases confirmed) and how did this eminent epidemiologist do?
He fell in the biggest trap ever using a very biased estimate. He took six flights from Wuhan with ex patriates (Western and Japanese) and found that of these 6 out of 689 were PCR pos in the screening procedures. He divided that with the number of passengers on the plane and then he got around that this 0.87 %  infected was about similar of the infection rate in Wuhan population. Throw in the 1000 confirmed deaths in Wuhan and you get around IFR 0.66% and then multiply with 80 % infected in UK and US and you have the horror scenario.
But he did the worst thing ever by having a bias in his selected population. These foreigners evacuated could never be representative of the population in Wuhan. Foreigners residing in secluded areas, not much mingling with the Chinese and I doubt that they ever visited markets. In short, his selection is extremely biased and that figure should never have been used in the equation. There could really be a much higher infection rate in Wuhan.
There was an alternative to estimate IFR and the infection rate by using the Diamond Princess as a living experiment of unrestricted infection and easily calculated CFR and cases and total population then IFR. Michael Levitt emailed Neil Fergusson several times and asked if his calculations should be considered as he figured that herd immunity would be more like 20% in Diamond Princess example. I don’t think he even bothered to reply. Fergusson is a mathematician but I think Levitt is a bit more prominent and just because Levitt is not an epidemiologist, he should at least have considered his alternative calculations.
Result a wrong IFR was multiplied with the wrong estimated herd immunity and we have now this disaster result in the pandemic response. The most fateful wrong mathematical calculation in the human history.

91499 ▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to swedenborg, 2, #559 of 1104 🔗

Sadly, Graham Neary’s statement “remember that it all comes back to the belief that finding six people with Covid on six flights was a good way to estimate how many people had the disease” is dangerous nonsense. Yes, the Imperial College study was flawed and should not have been used as a basis for political decisions but a quick look at it
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1473309920302437
soon establishes that the ‘Method’ included consideration of information under the following headings:

Individual-level data on early deaths from mainland China
Individual-level data on cases outside mainland China
Data on aggregate cases and deaths in mainland China
Data on infection in repatriated international Wuhan residents
Data on cases and deaths on the Diamond Princess cruise ship
Demographic data
Statistical analysis overview
Estimation of time intervals between symptom onset and outcome
Estimation of case fatality ratio from individual case data

The categorical statement “That – and that alone – was the basis for the initial IFR estimate” in Toby Young’s post is an unfortunate misunderstanding at best but could reasonably be considered by any opponent of Lockdown Scepticism to be a disingenuous untruth.

Under the heading ‘Results’ this is what the 19 authors of the report (including a certain Neil Ferguson) actually wrote concerning the famous 6:
“In international Wuhan residents repatriated on six flights, we estimated a prevalence of infection of 0·87% (95% CI 0·32–1·9; six of 689).”

How Neary and Toby get a presumed Infection Fatality Ratio of 0.9% from that is beyond me. It seems to me that the authors gross underestimation of asymptomatic infections (a small strip at the bottom of their pyramid!) was the main factor and simplest explanation of their wild prophecy.

91522 ▶▶▶ swedenborg, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 2, #560 of 1104 🔗

Agree that there was much more cnsiderations into the final equation but that an epidemiologist could not see a bias in using the repatraites as a surrogate for population in Wuhan seems odd. The first principle for an epidemiologist is to look out for bias.This is my main point.

91618 ▶▶▶ hat man, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 2, #561 of 1104 🔗

You are right that Verity et al. threw in a lot of extra assumptions as part of their ‘method’, and mention other potential sources of data, e.g. the Diamond Princess. But I believe Neary,Toby and Swedenborg are justified in drawing attention to the only hard data Verity et al. actually used to stand the IFR claim up. Here’s what they say under Table 1 of their paper, wrt the IFR:

‘Obtained by combining estimates of case fatality ratios with information on infection prevalence obtained from those returning home on repatriation flights.’

Here they say they made, or used, ‘estimates’ (NB of *case* fatalities), and the only data they used for the *Infection* Fatality Rate were infections on the six flights from Wuhan.

I think that’s pretty much what Neary’s point was, and he can hardly be called ‘disingenuous’ for that.

91703 ▶▶▶▶ swedenborg, replying to hat man, 2, #562 of 1104 🔗

I think one of the worst aspects is the rigidity of the calculation based upon so much unknown variables. One might accept that they must produce something quick. That was acceptable and you could not please every suggestion coming in also from Levitt. But why the rigidity and not being flexible after the publication? Masses of information was flooding in March and April like low IFR from various sources. If they quickly changed the model and adapted it to new information his reputation would not be so bad. It is almost unbelievable that they did not factor in new information. Field marshal Moltke said that even the best military plan don’t survive the first encounter with the enemy.

91940 ▶▶▶▶▶ hat man, replying to swedenborg, #563 of 1104 🔗

Normally, what you say would be quite right, but that would be assuming he and his ICL colleagues were pursuing the goal of scientific enquiry. Surely we know by now that that wasn’t his game at all. His paymasters wanted a panic story for media dissemination, and they duly got what they paid him for. I think Ferguson’s reputation is stellar, in the circles that matter for future policy choices. This three-times-failed forecaster was chosen for the Covid hit job in 2020 because they knew he’d deliver the right prediction for what was wanted.

91532 ▶▶ WhyNow, replying to swedenborg, 3, #564 of 1104 🔗

This is an easy trap to fall into. You use the evidence that fits the pattern you expect to find. Without understanding it you assume that, because the result is plausible, the data must be sound.

It is sort of PPE level science. You could never practice medicine, or engineering, or write software, that way. Which is perhaps why these particular academics don’t.

91573 ▶▶ Tom Blackburn, replying to swedenborg, #565 of 1104 🔗

NF strikes me as a savant.

91617 ▶▶▶ Recusant, replying to Tom Blackburn, 3, #566 of 1104 🔗

So does autocorrect change fraud to savant?

91637 ▶▶▶▶ WhyNow, replying to Recusant, 1, #567 of 1104 🔗

No, it removes the “idiot”

91490 Peter Thompson, replying to Peter Thompson, 43, #568 of 1104 🔗

Lets see ….what can we predict for this week …
Internationally I see New Zealand going full police state level 4 lockdown because St Jacinda has to double down . She will probably postpone the election but that will be OK with the media as she is a living saint.

Nationally I see Boris will introduce face masks at workplaces.They are being introduced in French and Italian work places and we all know that world governments follow the others without much thought . The mandatory face masks outside will be left for another fortnight. This pantomine has a long time to run…..remember when it was 3 weeks to save the NHS ?

91496 ▶▶ Poppy, replying to Peter Thompson, 33, #569 of 1104 🔗

My bf was talking to me about this – he pointed out that if Trump tries to delay his election he’ll be seen as a fascist dictator, whereas if the dreadful Jacinda delays her election, she’ll be seen as saintly and doing the right thing… hypocrisy at its finest. I can’t stand her.

91564 ▶▶ JulieR, replying to Peter Thompson, 15, #570 of 1104 🔗

They cannot police private offices.
Company I work for will never do it. We worked through lockdown, never closed, nobody got ill. There are many sceptics in the company.

91581 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to JulieR, 8, #571 of 1104 🔗

Your company will survive and thrive, stick with it!

91855 ▶▶▶ Rick08765, replying to JulieR, 1, #572 of 1104 🔗

Wish my workplace had had such good sense as yours.

92049 ▶▶ sunchap, replying to Peter Thompson, 1, #573 of 1104 🔗

Very accurate.

St Cindy is trying to eliminate a harmless corona virus. Even though the original plan was to prevent our Kiwi health system being over run.

91494 hotrod, replying to hotrod, 2, #574 of 1104 🔗

This Arizona story of teachers not wanting to go to work?

What is the supposed IFR in Arizona?

This is shameful and could lead others teachers taking same action.

Crazy and cruel.

91558 ▶▶ A. Contrarian, replying to hotrod, 1, #575 of 1104 🔗

Just imagine if doctors and nurses refused to go to work because it’s too dangerous… and they’re actually likely to have contact with the dreaded corona as well!

91497 Jack, replying to Jack, 13, #576 of 1104 🔗

From the Telegraph live feed:

Joe Biden has called for a nationwide “mask mandate” for the next three months as he seeks to draw a contrast with Donald Trump’s handling of the coronavirus pandemic.

Mr Biden, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, claimed that experts estimate that if every American wore a mask while outside, more than 40,0000 lives could be saved in the next three months .

“It’s not about your rights. It’s about your responsibilities as an American,” he said, as he called on every state governor to impose orders requiring people to wear masks.

Don’t suppose we’ll ever know who those ‘experts’ are or see the research that came up with that figure.

Expect similar claims to be made over here soon.

91507 ▶▶ watashi, replying to Jack, 5, #577 of 1104 🔗

jeez. this is all so depressing. if you could wake up back in February 2020 would you do anything differently?

91513 ▶▶▶ Adam, replying to watashi, 23, #578 of 1104 🔗

Move to Sweden.

91787 ▶▶▶ Mark II, replying to watashi, #579 of 1104 🔗

Defo would’ve gone on a ski holiday we were putting off til next yr, our plans for a summer holiday have been shafted (of course)

91540 ▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Jack, 3, #580 of 1104 🔗

Well he is meant to have senile dementia! This is blatant electioneering – who knows how it will play out?

91541 ▶▶ Bugle, replying to Jack, #581 of 1104 🔗

Mmm, that will attract the voters.

91556 ▶▶ A. Contrarian, replying to Jack, #582 of 1104 🔗

40 thousand or 400 thousand? Either way, that’s a pretty ridiculous estimate…

91579 ▶▶ Two-Six, replying to Jack, 2, #583 of 1104 🔗

Creepy Joe Bidens brain is turning to swiss cheese. It will be a fondu by November. Kamala Harris for President if Biden wins.

91649 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Two-Six, 1, #584 of 1104 🔗

UGH!!

91667 ▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Two-Six, #585 of 1104 🔗

More like Cheese Whiz.

91669 ▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Two-Six, #586 of 1104 🔗

Let’s see how well Ms Harris performs on the stump.

91715 ▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Jack, #587 of 1104 🔗

Biden stole that line from JFK. Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.

91786 ▶▶ Mark II, replying to Jack, 1, #588 of 1104 🔗

Hate how the pitch is changing to be scared of it outside now too, about the only place left in the UK they haven’t totally fucked with, as you just know if they go that way in UsA our twats will follow

91518 DRW, replying to DRW, 34, #589 of 1104 🔗

Another personal story from me.

Sadly conflict is now brewing within my family because I apparently “need help”. Really, they know I’m not right but don’t know why. Yes, my mental health is crap but what “help” do they actually expect? If they want me on drugs then I’d sooner have the popular ones that actually work for a bit. But for now I just have this and similar websites and some other things (such as planning for a holiday next year) as imperfect sanity rests.

Their main problem is I’ve become reclusive. They think that I’m now afraid of covid when actually I just despise all the bullshit hygiene theatre. I have been out when I can get a normal or acceptably near-normal experience, such as dog walking, cycling or going to the pub. But the worse things get the less inclined I am to go out. University will be very difficult this year, I will be avoiding campus as much as I can. Yes being stuck in my room is bad for me but daily visits to that dystopian hellscape will be far worse. And I wouldn’t put it past them to demand the bloody vax when it comes out.

But I can’t explain this to them because they believe the BBC Narrative that it’s all necessary evils and so conform to the path of least resistance. I don’t hate my family at all but I really wish they’d wake up so they’d understand.

91527 ▶▶ Two-Six, replying to DRW, 6, #590 of 1104 🔗

My family are brainwashed too. I haven’t talked to them for ages. It’s getting bad. Dunno if that helps any.

91533 ▶▶ watashi, replying to DRW, 6, #591 of 1104 🔗

so sorry to hear this. it sounds like you need some likeminded people
to hang out with! do you know of any nearby?

91551 ▶▶ annie, replying to DRW, 9, #592 of 1104 🔗

Give them a rest. Adopt us as your temporary family!

91672 ▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to annie, 4, #593 of 1104 🔗

First dating, now adoption. How are you going to arrange that, Mr. Young?

91559 ▶▶ JulieR, replying to DRW, 4, #594 of 1104 🔗

Where do you live? I would love to meet up with like minded people.
I am in South London.

91562 ▶▶▶ watashi, replying to JulieR, 2, #595 of 1104 🔗

I’m in warwickshire

91588 ▶▶▶▶ NickR, replying to watashi, 7, #596 of 1104 🔗

I’m in Warwickshire too! Prepare s lecture for the family, under a promise of silence make them listen to Ivor Cummins your de force debunking the 2nd wave, force them to read the Swiss doctor & if they still aren’t convinced leave home.
Deaths in hospitals are 15% below the 5 year average, it must be one hell of a pandemic!

91586 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to JulieR, 1, #597 of 1104 🔗

Also in south London, Julie. That’s a big place, mind.

91615 ▶▶▶▶ JulieR, replying to matt, 1, #598 of 1104 🔗

I am in Sutton

91656 ▶▶▶▶▶ Jenny, replying to JulieR, 3, #599 of 1104 🔗

Another South Londoner here – South Wimbledon; 3 of us – it’s a spike!

91704 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Jenny, #600 of 1104 🔗

I’m the other side! I’ll just sit sullenly in SE London on my own

91708 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Eddie, replying to Jenny, #601 of 1104 🔗

All three of you should go and get tested immediately!

91668 ▶▶▶▶▶ Coronamoana, replying to JulieR, 1, #602 of 1104 🔗

I’m in Cheam!

91674 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Kelly deacons, replying to Coronamoana, #603 of 1104 🔗

I live in Mitcham!

91745 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Coronamoana, #604 of 1104 🔗

East Cheam… ?
There are Hancocks there, look out!

91569 ▶▶ RickH, replying to DRW, 9, #605 of 1104 🔗

I hope that there’s enough sane refutation here of the Scary Fairy Tale for you to at least know that staying sane involves not believing the fabricated narrative.

Also – that many of us find the surrounding environment deeply depressing and weird as the ‘Invasion of the Living Dead’ overtakes social health.

91571 ▶▶ Tom Blackburn, replying to DRW, 10, #606 of 1104 🔗

Get out and about. Do as much normal as possible. Fuck the law. Social isolation is a bigger killer than Covid.

91627 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to DRW, 5, #607 of 1104 🔗

Very sorry to hear this. I don’t really speak to my family either as they’ve drunk the kool aid and the country where I came from has imposed a far stricter lockdown and draconian muzzle policy which they support.

Agree with the others here – find like minded people you can talk to and meet up. I think its best to take care of yourself and do what’s best for you. If it means having to avoid your family for now, that might be the wisest course of action.

91641 ▶▶ Thinkaboutit, replying to DRW, 4, #608 of 1104 🔗

Go out and smile at unmasked people where you can find them. Even one smile a day helps.

91647 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to DRW, 1, #609 of 1104 🔗

See if there’s a local KBF group near you. You might be able to meet up with some like-minded people.

https://www.keepbritainfree.com/forum/kbf-local

91856 ▶▶ Rick08765, replying to DRW, 2, #610 of 1104 🔗

I find the classic mental health narrative disgusting, suggesting that the “ill” person “needs help”, no, they need the situation to change. Mental health issues occur in response to traumatic intrusions upon daily routine, the only way to fix tem is to fix th problem, talking therapies and/or drugs do not work. I’ve seen so many offers of the classical kinds of mental health supprot throughout this panicdemic debacle, what all the people ned is normality back, not some pill, or a useless webchat. Which uni is it which has become a dystopian hellscape under whatever coronanist manglement is currently wrecking the lives of both students and profs, I see similar things happening in my bit of the country.

92014 ▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to DRW, #611 of 1104 🔗

From experience – families are overrated.

Sometimes it’s better to just cut the ties and find friends instead.

A couple of true friends is a lot better than lots of “friends and family” who are giving you major problems.

91519 smileymiley, replying to smileymiley, 5, #612 of 1104 🔗

This is very good from mind about the mental effects of mask wearing. Some good things to quote to the mask zealots

https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/coronavirus/mask-anxiety-face-coverings-and-mental-health/

91534 ▶▶ Paul, replying to smileymiley, 4, #613 of 1104 🔗

Parts of it are good but the underlying message seems to be wear a mask as much as you can,wear one on your good days,all it really needed to say was if it affects your mental well being you don’t need to wear one.There seems more emphasis on trying to find ways to make wearing one acceptable to a person than anything else.

91545 ▶▶▶ OKUK, replying to Paul, 3, #614 of 1104 🔗

Lots of essential oils can burn the skin – sounds like a v dangerous idea to be spreading round.

91576 ▶▶▶▶ Two-Six, replying to OKUK, 1, #615 of 1104 🔗

Inhaling them neat can’t be a good thing either

91631 ▶▶▶▶▶ RichardJames, replying to Two-Six, 1, #616 of 1104 🔗

Inhalation isn’t neat; the molecules are dispersed in the air. Not a problem.

91650 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Two-Six, replying to RichardJames, #617 of 1104 🔗

It’s a bit like rose tinted sunglasses, a lavender tinted face mask

91630 ▶▶▶▶ RichardJames, replying to OKUK, #618 of 1104 🔗

You don’t use essential oils neat. Dilute them with sweet almond oil. Essential oils work very well against viruses. Google “Thieves Oil”.

91857 ▶▶▶▶▶ Rick08765, replying to RichardJames, #619 of 1104 🔗

I think it was “thieves’ vinegar” actually, a medieval type of hand snaitiser used by those who raided the houses of plague victims when there was a bacterium spreading round Europe which was actually worth worying about.

91634 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to OKUK, 1, #620 of 1104 🔗

Lavender is fine. I use it neat all the time. Just keep it out of your eyes.

91583 ▶▶▶ Bella, replying to Paul, 4, #621 of 1104 🔗

Not good. ‘If you feel you can wear a mask then you must.’ Sorry old chum, no.

91535 ▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to smileymiley, 6, #622 of 1104 🔗

Hmm. They seem to be bending over backwards to persuade people to go along with wearing a mask including links to the oh-so-helpful Govt ‘guidelines’ in England and Wales, But then:

What counts as ‘mental impairment’ or ‘severe distress’?

There is no clear-cut definition of ‘mental impairment’ or ‘severe distress’ in the mask regulations. These terms may cover a lot of different experiences.

For example, you might feel severely distressed or impaired if wearing a mask triggers acute symptoms of a mental health condition, like:

panic attacks, flashbacks or other severe anxiety symptoms
paranoia or hearing voices
dissociating, or switching alters (something that happens to people with dissociative identity disorder)
thoughts of self-harm or suicide.

This is the only useful bit:

But even if you don’t have an existing mental health diagnosis, you might still feel overwhelmingly anxious, distressed or unwell when wearing a mask. It can be difficult to judge if you feel unwell ‘enough’ to be excused from wearing a mask. But remember: you are the expe rt on your own experience.

Followed by lots of helpful advice on how to adapt your ‘face-covering’ by putting essential oils on it etc.

Sadly, it more-or-less says, ‘Wear a damn mask’

91539 ▶▶▶ Paul, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 4, #623 of 1104 🔗

That’s how I read it too Miriam,yet another charity following the government line.

91548 ▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Paul, 5, #624 of 1104 🔗

Yes, these people are supposed to be supporting those with mental health problems. Instead they are simply winding people up which is indefensible. I note that their website blames Coronavirus for the massive number of people who are becoming mentally ill. Shame on them.

91563 ▶▶▶▶▶ RickH, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 6, #625 of 1104 🔗

Indeed – It’s the political Panicdemic, not the medical epidemic that’s the problem.

91858 ▶▶▶ Rick08765, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, #626 of 1104 🔗

I think the “paranoia” one can work pretty well, when you see your country collapsing into fascism it is pretty easy to be paranoid about one of the most visible signs of the public’s willingness to suport tyranny.

91557 ▶▶ RickH, replying to smileymiley, 12, #627 of 1104 🔗

It misses the main point – that the imposition of mask wearing flies in the face of basic medical ethics, where the benefit of any intervention has to observably outweigh the harm.

It’s that f.ing simple – and is clearly not the case.

91665 ▶▶▶ Alan P, replying to RickH, 4, #628 of 1104 🔗

And the idea that the virus will not go anywhere near you when you wear a mask entering a restaurant, order food at a fast food counter, etc. And also won’t go near you when you remove it to eat at a table in the self-same premises…..! Seriously? Where’s the logic ffs?

91702 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to RickH, 4, #629 of 1104 🔗

No, the main point is that the imposition of any item of clothing by a supposed democratic government is fundamentally wrong and must be resisted. Any possible health effects (mental or physical) are secondary to the unacceptable intrusion on liberty.

91817 ▶▶▶▶ Lucky, replying to matt, #630 of 1104 🔗

I don’t think so. Forced intrusion on self and mental/physical effects inseparable.

91580 ▶▶ annie, replying to smileymiley, 9, #631 of 1104 🔗

They sum up the horrors pretty well:

  • Covering your mouth and nose might affect the air you breathe, which might make you feel anxious or panicky . This can then cause other symptoms as well, like feeling dizzy or sick , which you might associate with the mask.
  • You might feel trapped or claustrophobic .
  • Covering your face changes the way you look, which may cause negative feelings around your identity or body image .
  • Having certain materials touching your skin might feel very hard to cope with ( sensory overload ).
  • If you wear glasses, they might get steamed up so you can’t see clearly . This might add to feelings of being overwhelmed .
  • Masks are a visual reminder of the virus , so seeing masks might make you feel on edge or unable to relax . It might seem like danger is everywhere.
  • Seeing people covering their faces might make you feel uneasy or scared of others . They might seem threatening, sinister, or dehumanised.

Do you really to be mentally ill to be horrified by all that?
Note the penultimate point in particular.Masks make people feel safe? Who are they trying to kid FFS?
And that but about not seeing clearly – you’d think it might have occurred to them that this could be extremely dangerous!
FFS!!!

91587 ▶▶▶ Two-Six, replying to annie, 6, #632 of 1104 🔗

FFS! So apart from all that….It’s fine. Don the face-nappy.

Never mind that they are totally useless and will probably make you ill.

91604 ▶▶▶ RickH, replying to annie, 18, #633 of 1104 🔗

The actuality is that mask wearing is the symptom of a mental illness – an induced mass paranoid psychopathy.

91673 ▶▶▶▶ richard riewer, replying to RickH, #634 of 1104 🔗

Right on Rick!

91521 hotrod, replying to hotrod, 2, #635 of 1104 🔗

DEATH and HOSPITALISATION rates?

Does anyone have a link to the global rates that can be shared with those panicking that rises in tests means a uplift in deaths?

Without that context I fear people are just linking the two together and we need to course correct those ASAP.

Are these published?

91531 ▶▶ matt, replying to hotrod, #636 of 1104 🔗

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Imperfect, but the best we have, I think.

91550 ▶▶ RickH, replying to hotrod, 1, #637 of 1104 🔗

Once you get into cross-national comparative/cumulative figures, I’m afraid you’re into a quagmire of distortions and incompatibilities.

91554 ▶▶ hat man, replying to hotrod, 1, #638 of 1104 🔗

This site tells you the positivity rate:

https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-testing

Scroll down to ‘The positive rate’ which will give you a map, then hover over the country you’re looking for.

91694 ▶▶ swedenborg, replying to hotrod, #639 of 1104 🔗

Very difficut subject.Spain has a daily bulletin but it is very hard to connect all figures although they give numbers of hospitalizations,ICU and deaths during the last 7 days but actual testing and cases is very difficult to understand.They have something called suspected cases in primary care and suspected in hospitals.Sometimes difficult to see which are antibody pos versus PCR pos.Deaths are always difficult sometimes a batch report and difficult to see if death is day of report or death on the day.And I think France is even worse.

91568 guy153, replying to guy153, 9, #640 of 1104 🔗

For people interested in T-cells and immunity and things, I came across this article which is very good:

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/08/covid-19-immunity-is-the-pandemics-central-mystery/614956/

There’s also a shorter one here about why not to panic about antibody levels going down (which is what I also keep saying…):

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/could-covid-19-immunity-really-disappear-months/614377/

A bit more technical but the first article contains a link to this very interesting paper about immune system evasion (which is something all coronaviruses do, but the severe ones do more) which has implications for treatment (with Interferons, which has been talked about) and also vaccine design:

https://doi.org/10.1016/j.chom.2020.05.008

I think Iwasaki reckons this may be very key to what’s happening in severe disease. She would think that because it’s her area of research. But it’s very interesting stuff and she may be right.

91688 ▶▶ swedenborg, replying to guy153, 3, #641 of 1104 🔗

Thank you for the links.Especially the first one is relly good journalism.Also important that it is published in Atlantic, a journal much MSM and I think earlier in project fear.Good that they now are into this subject and they seem to have good journalists. T cells need to be depoliticized.

91570 court, replying to court, 31, #642 of 1104 🔗

Lovely visit to Newport retail park today, only around 5 minutes longer drive than going to Cribbs Causeway nr Bristol. Minimal mask wearing, only elderly and the usual suspects. Got a barking at in Boots for not following their medicine counter one way system even though no queue. Then similar from an employee in M+S foodhall for not following the arrow upon entry.

But heavens be, on the side of Tesco was a Soft Play(!) The kids of 2&4 had forgot these places existed. Was welcomed in by a young lady who explained their Covid rules in a lovely manner – felt like she actually wanted our business – we picked a table, did T&T data then just sat there relaxing for over 2 hours while the kids got out all their energy. It could only have been improved if it was licensed! Not one parent wearing a mask, kids running round touching and licking everything as they normally would.

I haven’t felt so normal in 6 months, thank you Wales for your hospitality. I really hope Westminster doesn’t pressure you into masks anytime soon.

91582 ▶▶ Mr Dee, replying to court, 11, #643 of 1104 🔗

Our pleasure… And if Westminster try to, it’ll be time for Owain Glyndwr Part II

91680 ▶▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to Mr Dee, #644 of 1104 🔗

Old Owain, another Glyn Dyfrdwy man:o))

91643 ▶▶ Youth_Unheard, replying to court, 8, #645 of 1104 🔗

The only saving grace of Wales at the moment, maybe the politicians realise the mood is changing and can use it against the UK government. As long as independence isn’t pushed, I am all for the Welsh turning both barrels at Boris if it helps hurry along the end of all the nonsense!!!

91584 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 9, #646 of 1104 🔗

https://twitter.com/jimkyle90/status/1295026062930444288/photo/1

This shows occupied Covid-19 beds in NHS.Total beds 100 000.It was always below 20% which was the peak. Looking at it retrospectively. Why did it not ring alarm bells late in April that the estimations had been wrong about hospitalizations? And why have half empty hospitals in May? They seem not to have realized that the pandemic had peaked and it was going down.

91699 ▶▶ matt, replying to swedenborg, 7, #647 of 1104 🔗

“Normal” ICU capacity is closer to 4,000. I don’t think this takes away from your point, but the 100,000 figure includes the nightingale capacity and the significant reorganization of hospitals to deal with the expected peak. The fact that we still only hit 20% capacity and denied the nation healthcare for anything else _anyway_ is still an unforgivable scandal.

91589 James Leary #KBF, replying to James Leary #KBF, 17, #648 of 1104 🔗

Laurence Olivier narrating episode 2 of ‘The World at War’ – The Phoney War.

“Hospitals were cleared to take air raid casualties. The ‘experts’ predicted over a million injured in 2 months. In the end there were none.

There weren’t any air raids, but thousands were killed in the blackout.

The air raid warden became more hated than Hitler.

The government closed all cinemas and other places of entertainment, but a fortnight later, they were allowed to open again”

My God, they just got the wartime plans out and did it again. Same blind reliance on government ‘experts’, the same killing of thousands of people with legislation designed to save a few of them. The same screeching U-turns after mindless snap decisions.

I don’t know whether this makes me feel better or worse – knowing that TPTB were as useless then as they are now. Either way, evil lost then, despite our rulers doing their best to aid it’s victory. We can’t let them win this time.

91605 ▶▶ Mark, replying to James Leary #KBF, 1, #649 of 1104 🔗

“The bomber will always get through”

91611 ▶▶ RickH, replying to James Leary #KBF, 10, #650 of 1104 🔗

But look at the killer line :

but a fortnight later, they were allowed to open again”

…. the wartime response was proportionate to the threat, and revised when reality caught up.

That’s the tell-tale of the current induced scam.

91623 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to RickH, 2, #651 of 1104 🔗

Scam indeed. Blatant procrastination being exercised.

91859 ▶▶▶ Rick08765, replying to RickH, #652 of 1104 🔗

I guess the wartime people were more willing to force the issue when they saw how disproportionate the initial actions had been.

91600 tonyspurs, replying to tonyspurs, 14, #653 of 1104 🔗

Ha sitting here half cut or a bit more than half cut and thought the headline said Hancock sacrifices Goat ..thought f*k me things must be getting bad 😂

91626 ▶▶ Laura Suckling, replying to tonyspurs, 4, #654 of 1104 🔗

That’s funny. But, if it was suggested as a guard against Covid I bet some people would do it, just as effective as a face mask IMHO.

91629 ▶▶▶ Thinkaboutit, replying to Laura Suckling, 2, #655 of 1104 🔗

Can 4chan do that as a troll?

91660 ▶▶▶▶ Laura Suckling, replying to Thinkaboutit, 1, #656 of 1104 🔗

I’ve no idea, but it would be amusing.

91612 swedenborg, 10, #657 of 1104 🔗

https://twitter.com/ReflConscious/status/1294801520945496067/photo/1

https://twitter.com/DrEliDavid/status/1294762165266718721/photo/1

Argentina must be the worst example of lockdown and mask mandate. They are now 5 mths in the lockdown. They had an early lock down but this virus thrives in winter condition and up it goes. Masks have of course zero effect. The total death is now 6000 and CFR about 2% quite good figures most likely due to HCQ. They usually have average 32000 deaths from flu and influenza.
Qoute “How can we justify a lockdown and increase in poverty 10 % with these figures?

91613 Basics, replying to Basics, 4, #658 of 1104 🔗

3 stories from local new outlet edinburghlive. Seen together are representative of the insanity we have had forced upon us.

1 Five pupils test positive for coronavirus after attending Scottish schools
It is understood the latest student only attended classes for one day – last Thursday, August 13 and is now self-isolating at home with immediate family

2 Coronavirus in Edinburgh: Leith bar forced to close after customer tests positive for Covid-19
Victoria Bar had to shut its doors after a customer told them that he had coronavirus

3 Edinburgh’s Sneaky Pete’s [pub/club] demand a complete u-turn on Nicola Sturgeon’s ‘music ban’
There are fears for the future of venues like Sneaky Pete’s as customers feel ‘awkward’ sitting in silence

91628 ▶▶ Two-Six, replying to Basics, 2, #659 of 1104 🔗

Mental

91619 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 4, #660 of 1104 🔗

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.08.14.250258v1

Tafenoquine is related to primaquine(an old antimalaria drug) and is already in use for malaria.
Signs of in vivo good effect against SARS-Cov-2

 “Hence, the current study provides a mechanistic insight into the mode of action of TFQ against SARS-CoV-2 Mpro. Moreover, the low clinical toxicity of TFQ and its strong antiviral activity against SARS-CoV-2 should warrant further testing in clinical trials.

91671 ▶▶ guy153, replying to swedenborg, #661 of 1104 🔗

Looks promising. Interesting that the mechanism by which they think it works is completely different from the zinc ionophore theory for HCQ (but that is only one theory for how HCQ might work).

91620 Barney McGrew, replying to Barney McGrew, 11, #662 of 1104 🔗

I find the Liddle phenomenon amusing. By now he must be beginning to understand that “new cases” are not quite what they seem. PHE’s exaggerated death figures… PCR tests not suited to detecting actual infections… false positives… Neil Ferguson as international joke figure… Sweden doing fine despite the BBC & Guardian desperately wishing it wasn’t, etc. etc.

In effect, he’s doing what Boris is doing: doubling down on his original mistake.

91625 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Barney McGrew, 3, #663 of 1104 🔗

Not amusing for the recipients!

91693 ▶▶ matt, replying to Barney McGrew, 4, #664 of 1104 🔗

Liddle falls into the category of “loathe him and feel dirty when I agree with him.” Formerly I agreed with him too often. Luckily now it almost never happens.

91632 WhyNow, 6, #665 of 1104 🔗

This thing is a witchfinder’s charter. One complaint from a disgruntled guardian and a business is forced to close – never mind schools or public services.

91635 Basics, replying to Basics, 8, #666 of 1104 🔗

Significant development in the probable manslaughter case of knowingly discharging positive cases into care homes. To date there has been various weaseling out of sturgeon on this matter.

Hospitals in five Scottish health boards sent patients into care homes after they had tested positive for Covid-19

https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/hospitals-sent-patients-into-care-homes-after-they-had-tested-positive-for-covid-19/

91657 ▶▶ Tom Blackburn, replying to Basics, 5, #667 of 1104 🔗

The government has breached Article 2 ECHR.

91736 ▶▶ BeBopRockSteady, replying to Basics, 1, #668 of 1104 🔗

Flatten the curve, save the NHS, to hell with the rest of you

This has always been the smoking gun for me. No doubt, this has happened with the flu over the years where someone caught it in hospital to be discharged back to their care home.

Yet that won’t save these managers now. They own this now.

91640 Bart Simpson, replying to Bart Simpson, 20, #669 of 1104 🔗

Another encounter with a Mask Karen, this time more a Mask Ken:

On my way to work this morning, got on the underground – on the carriage was one bloke muzzled. I sat far away as possible so I can read my book in peace. He later asks me why I didn’t have a muzzle on, replied I was exempt and before I could add “mind your own business”, he apologised and gave me a thumbs up.

A few stops later, another bloke boards the carriage also unmuzzled and I wondered if Mask Ken would confront this bloke because if he didn’t, I would have called him a “bully”. He does approach unmuzzled bloke asks him the same question and the latter’s reply was “I’m exempt mate.”

From the corner of my eye, I noticed that unmuzzled bloke looked rather pissed off and Mask Ken had to back off and apologise.

Granted this encounter was more civilised than that run in I had with that Mask Karen (why is it that its the women who have been really bad with this sort of thing) and Mask Ken was apologetic but I wondered why did he not just mind his own damned business?

91679 ▶▶ Paul, replying to Bart Simpson, 9, #670 of 1104 🔗

What is it with some people that they just have to stick their noses into everything ?,what is going through their heads that makes them think they have some type of god-given authority ?,one of these busybodies is going to accost the wrong person before too long.

91685 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Paul, 6, #671 of 1104 🔗

Agree, its baffling that they need to parade their self-righteousness by not minding their own business. That Mask Ken should be lucky that bloke didn’t respond by whacking his fist into Mask Ken’s face and that he wasn’t in Brixton or some other dodgy part of London because he will live to regret it if he did that there.

91845 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Paul, 2, #672 of 1104 🔗

They’ve been encouraged by the likes of Dame Cressida …

91700 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Bart Simpson, 6, #673 of 1104 🔗

Hopefully he’s trying to pluck up the courage to go without his and is discovering how easy it is ……
Keep showing your faces everyone!

91720 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Cheezilla, 4, #674 of 1104 🔗

That’s likely since in that carriage, Mask Ken was outnumbered – 2 to 1.

91651 DJC, replying to DJC, 16, #675 of 1104 🔗

More Covid official lunacy… I flew from Dublin to Paris today with Aer Lingus. While queuing for boarding the staff handed out forms which they said we had to fill in and present to the French authorities: “Sworn Statement of Absence of Covid-19 Symptoms and of Contact with Confirmed Cases”, requesting names, addresses etc. But no official headings or ministry logos, it looked like something thrown together on MSWord in 5 minutes.

All the passengers filled them out, but when we arrived in Paris the passport control staff were bemused when we presented them, waving them away and saying they didn’t want them. When I asked the passport official to whom I should give it he shrugged and said “I have no idea!”

Anyway no-one requested them and the whole thing is a mystery…. pointless and idiotic like this whole Covid scam.

About on the same level as the Irish Government requiring arriving passengers to fill out “locator forms” which have no legal function… as the Irish say the whole thing is GUBU… grotesque, unbelievable, bizarre and unprecedented.

91812 ▶▶ Edward, replying to DJC, 1, #676 of 1104 🔗

Like Dad’s Army, Corporal Jones giving Mr Blewitt a “bath permit”. Blewitt says “Who do I give this to?”, Jones says “Dunno, you’d better give it back to me”.

91829 ▶▶▶ Lucky, replying to Edward, #677 of 1104 🔗

Ha ha!!!

91655 Two-Six, 2, #678 of 1104 🔗

Tonight live at 9:30 Mark Windows. There IS live chat!
https://windowsontheworld.net/live-shows/

91662 Steve Martindale, replying to Steve Martindale, 1, #679 of 1104 🔗

As ever this discussion moves on so fast I cannot keep up! and so if I am going back over old ground my apologies. A while back, I think an Italian doctor suggested that the covid virus had become less virulent but this view was discounted by many. Does anyone know if there have been any further reports of the covid virus getting any less virulent or mutating in any way?

91666 ▶▶ p02099003, replying to Steve Martindale, 3, #680 of 1104 🔗

The discussion on the fat emperor YouTube channel with the ITU doctor from Birmingham covers the possible mutation of the virus.

91676 ▶▶ Che Strazio, replying to Steve Martindale, 2, #681 of 1104 🔗

There were a few Italian doctors who spoke up in the early days… Mostly acquiesced now. I’m happy to translate (for free) reliable sources!

91698 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Che Strazio, 1, #682 of 1104 🔗

Thank you.

91809 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Steve Martindale, 2, #683 of 1104 🔗

It’s possible that the most susceptible people are now dead so it appears as though the virus is less harmful. It is believed that early on the use of ventilators was actually killing people too so there’s also that.

91663 Nessimmersion, replying to Nessimmersion, 7, #684 of 1104 🔗

In case people have forgotten – another reason why the them love muzzles:
https://thecritic.co.uk/face-masks-make-you-stupid/

91690 ▶▶ Two-Six, replying to Nessimmersion, 10, #685 of 1104 🔗

“The point of face masks is not to protect humans, but to diminish humanity – to rob people of their ego, their identity, and their autonomy. Masks are worn by disposable horror movie villains and ignorable background dancers; they make people less-than-human.”

91701 ▶▶ Eddie, replying to Nessimmersion, 18, #686 of 1104 🔗

I knew from the get go this was the purpose and I thought the majority of us would see through this s**t and keep our faces in the light. Now I go out in public and am continually frustrated by this attack on our collective humanity. My whole existence revolves around high amounts of observation and reading body language, and at this point I’m finding myself upset any time I have to interact with a masked being

91670 stefarm, replying to stefarm, 60, #687 of 1104 🔗

FB message forwarded via OH

From a campaign member

Please have the admin ‘message’ my comment to the fabulous anonymous teacher. Ask her to show it to those teachers she knows who may be struggling, hopefully it will help empower them to mentally fight the fear propaganda

“the new norm” why be so accepting when you can be a lever for change within your environment? , I use the phrase “the new temporary”

I’m a police officer. My wife is a police officer. My sister is a teacher…she is married to a police officer. Since day one we have still attended work with no ‘time out’ to assess and make changes other than additional hand washing. Initial thoughts due to media hype were that most of our staff would be wiped out therefore specialist departments were reduced to skeleton crews (this policy has since been cancelled) with the remaining being sent to front line policing roles. As it happened, beyond the usual work shy few, only a handful of the 18000 staff self isolated, these numbers became almost zero when testing came out and the ‘chancers’ could no longer milk it. Those asked by the gov to shield were permitted to do so. We have continued to share lifts to work due to lack of parking, continued to share communal locker/shower facilities (even though cleaning staff have been furloughed), continued to share dining facilities (even though local offices have been swamped with additional staff), continued to share home baking (by the truck load) cutlery/crockery/kettles/water fountains/micro waves that have been unfit for human use for about 7 years, continue to share the tv remote to turn off news updates, continue to crew vehicles with 2-8 officers per vehicle for hours on end, continue to hot-desk sharing IT/telephones etc, continue to arrest the clean, unclean and down right boggin’, continue to search cars and houses, continue to strip search those who required to be so, continue to handle dead bodies wherever they may have died and strip them of their possessions before being slid in to the big fridge at the mortuary, continue to wrestle and fight with those who didn’t fancy free B&B, continue, to cook prisoner meals, continue to sit in interview rooms for hours, continue to police demonstrations etc etc…in the early days it was suggested that due to staff numbers we should be holding shift briefings outside however the thought of getting soaked through to the skin before the shift had even started was less appealing than getting Coronavirus so that idea was quickly chapped on the head. After about 16 weeks or so there was a slow roll out of face masks for daily use however yesterday was the first time I saw one being worn, nobody I know has felt the need to use one. Oh, did I mention the queues that form outside the CID office for lockdown haircuts during the night shift so that we can all continue to look handsome whilst detaining a protesting prisoner who has covered themselves in their own shit? Based on the foregoing, please do forgive me when I read the fear being peddled by the EIS in the communications with their members. Don’t let the media driven fear campaign interfere with the ability to do your job…whatever your job / profession may be.

91675 ▶▶ commononsense, replying to stefarm, 6, #688 of 1104 🔗

What a fantastic post. We need more first hand real life like this. Thank you.

91682 ▶▶ bluefreddy, replying to stefarm, 4, #689 of 1104 🔗

Thank you for your post, and for doing all this.

91684 ▶▶▶ stefarm, replying to bluefreddy, 3, #690 of 1104 🔗

I’m taking no credit but it’s good to see it doing the rounds on FB

91686 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to stefarm, 4, #691 of 1104 🔗

Great post. Thanks a lot!

91697 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to stefarm, 8, #692 of 1104 🔗

I find it amazing that while the rest of us are muzzled up, segregated, and everything we touch in public is disinfected at every opportunity, the police station cleaners have been prevented from working. WTF?!

91706 ▶▶▶ stefarm, replying to Cheezilla, 4, #693 of 1104 🔗

Good point, maybe they would know too much and spread the word about what is really going on behind the scenes

91717 ▶▶ AN other lockdown sceptic, replying to stefarm, 3, #694 of 1104 🔗

Brilliant. Just brilliant.

91739 ▶▶ MadJock1, replying to stefarm, 4, #695 of 1104 🔗

Brilliant – restores some faith in the police. Base on the term “boggin” and mention of the EIS I assume this chap is based in the land of the Scottish Nazi Party. In which case even more respect to him

91861 ▶▶ Rick08765, replying to stefarm, 1, #696 of 1104 🔗

So why didn’t that cop, obviously a sensible person whp’s seen through the coronapanic, refuse to enforce lockdown abuses against the population? Or did they refuse, I hope they refused, I’d like to see law enforcement deciding that some laws are too draconian to be valid.

91692 Barney McGrew, replying to Barney McGrew, 39, #697 of 1104 🔗

Anyone else struck by the disparity of ‘rationality’ between the pro- and anti-lockdown sides? The opposite of empiricism is rationalism.

A purely rational argument would be: “We should not lock down because there is no logical way to lift the lockdown until, perhaps a vaccine is developed, and by that time the country will be in economic ruins. A ruined economy means at least a ruined health service, which will, itself, lead to many, many more deaths than might be prevented by reducing the prevalence of Covid”.

Another rational argument is “The death of a 90 year-old who is already very ill is not as bad as the death of a healthy youngster. A virus that almost-exclusively hastens the death of already-ill old people is not as serious as, say, influenza that kills a similar number of much younger people. We don’t lock the country down for influenza, so why should we for Covid?” This is logic .

In contrast, the pro-lockdown side relies primarily on empiricism because it doesn’t comprehend rational arguments – rationalism requiring a higher form of intelligence than empiricism. Lockdown sceptics find it impossible to communicate with the lockdown ‘zombies’ because the zombies cannot understand them .

Try the above logical arguments on a pro-lockdown person and they will just go quiet. Not because they don’t want to argue with you, but because they cannot argue with you . They have no rational faculties. If they say anything, it will be something like “How do you explain those scenes in Italian hospitals?” Or “I know someone whose cleaner nearly died of Covid, and is still off work”. I guarantee it .

Empiricists cannot in advance work out that a lockdown is a bad idea, because they can only react to ‘evidence’. So they create some unfalsifiable evidence in the form of a ‘model’, impose the lockdown, then get the results they seek through ‘surveys’ and ‘studies’ that are unfalsifiable because the lockdown is a fait accompli.

Five months later, they are shocked to find that the economy is in ruins and that there is no way out of it.

“One thousand new cases today in Leicester” is a purely empirical statement. It is used by the lockdown people as though it is an argument. It is not an argument . It is a non sequitur. But they think they have put forward a devastating argument. It is ‘true’; it can be ‘fact checked’ and pronounced to be a true fact. But it is not an argument, or proof of anything.

“No change in the percentage of positive tests in Leicester” is a statement that incorporates some rationalism, in that it has been constructed by someone who – naturally – realises that an increase in testing will lead to an increase in positive test results regardless of the prevalence of the virus, and that not compensating for this would make the result pointless, or misleading, or dishonest. (Clearly, there are many more factors to take into account, such as the nature of PCR tests, the false positive rate, the degree of true randomness in the test subjects, etc. Only a rational person can understand this).

The problem is that the country is being run primarily by people who are empiricists. This is the ultimate result of elevating so-called ‘evidence based policy’ above the old-fashioned rationalism that preceded it. It isn’t that these people have a different opinion from the lockdown sceptics; it is that they are literally blind to logical, rational argument.

91713 ▶▶ janis pennance, replying to Barney McGrew, 11, #698 of 1104 🔗

I had a laborious exchange today …my Lockdown Lover argued I was cherry picking data, my value judgement was different to his as he valued every life , he is all for the greater good, whereas I apparently value personal freedom above the health of everyone else
Jeez he waffled on and bloody on
I pointed out he seems not be valuing the lives lost because of Lockdown

I then asked him to find me some data to show Lockdown is proportional to the risk, any data , I even said he could cherry pick to his hearts content , show me

Nothing forthcoming
.

91723 ▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to janis pennance, 5, #699 of 1104 🔗

Yes! That’s how it is. You can say “If it could be shown that more lives will be lost due to the lockdown than even Neil Ferguson predicted would die from Covid, would you agree that the lockdown was a mistake?”. i.e. put to them a hypothesis based on logic and not even requiring any hard evidence at this stage. Their answer? Silence. Not even an attempt to answer what is surely a pretty fundamental question. I wouldn’t mind if they dissected it and re-phrased it or whatever, as long as they addressed it.

I have asked this question of a few pro-lockdown people. One Oxbridge-educated person eventually said something like “I am interested only in primary research, not hypothetical questions”. So they made themselves sound superior, when in fact they were just substituting squishy empiricism in place of cold, hard, mathematical logic.

91730 ▶▶▶▶ A. Contrarian, replying to Barney McGrew, 12, #700 of 1104 🔗

I think a lot of people genuinely cannot conceive how lockdown could kill people. It’s just sitting at home watching Netflix and baking sourdough isn’t it? How could anyone die as a result of that?

91740 ▶▶▶▶▶ janis pennance, replying to A. Contrarian, 10, #701 of 1104 🔗

They must live on a different planet to me. Personally it doesn’t affect me at all , I work outside , hate shopping and prefer to be in the garden. However I can relate to the anguish felt by those having treatment refused or delayed, people who live in tiny flats, people losing jobs, houses , the mental anxiety especially for children, isolating old folk. The whole thing is horrific for so many people.
Maybe they should think a bit harder , it’s actually them being selfish wanting it to continue

91746 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ JulieR, replying to janis pennance, 10, #702 of 1104 🔗

This is exactly what I said to my relative who said that he liked the lockdown and was better off.
I pointed out that lots of people are suffering, losing jobs, not seeing their loved ones. He didn’t think of that. If it didn’t affect him he didn’t care.

91753 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Two-Six, replying to janis pennance, 3, #703 of 1104 🔗

Yes it’s selfish

91732 ▶▶▶▶ janis pennance, replying to Barney McGrew, 7, #704 of 1104 🔗

Absolutely , it’s bloody exhausting . If you ask them to take their value judgement to it’s logical end they just do not get it , it doesn’t compute.
Like if what you believe is correct then are we to lockdown for Flu, Tuberculosis , … they all kill the vulnerable and always have. If you point out to them they may well have given someone Flu unintentionally as that too is infectious when pre-symptomatic they just cannot reply.
There is something insidious about assuming people arguing against these stupid rules is a selfish , right wing, Trump supporting , libertarian murderer

It’s beyond weird how bonkers they are , there is no logic applied

91733 ▶▶▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to janis pennance, 2, #705 of 1104 🔗

Spot on.

91863 ▶▶▶▶▶ Rick08765, replying to janis pennance, 1, #706 of 1104 🔗

When those prolockdown zealots get on their high horse like that it makes you WANT to be a “selfish , right wing, Trump supporting , libertarian murderer” even if you used to be a left wing remainer.

91985 ▶▶▶▶▶ ConstantBees, replying to janis pennance, 1, #707 of 1104 🔗

It’s annoying to me since I’m not selfish, left wing, anti-Trump, and in no way a libertarian. I’m sure I’m not the only one in that demographic.

91920 ▶▶▶▶ Alci, replying to Barney McGrew, 2, #708 of 1104 🔗

If they want primary research, hooray! Ask them to show you the primary research that caused the government to change their view on masks. Or play “spot the second wave”: look at numbers of deaths against the number of cases (pick a country, any country). Or guess death rates by age.

Oxbridge education is no guarantee of anything sadly – take a look at the Cabinet.

91735 ▶▶▶ FatBastardMcKenzie, replying to janis pennance, 6, #709 of 1104 🔗

“ If you make people think they’re thinking, they’ll love you; But if you really make them think, they’ll hate you.”
—Don Marquis

91803 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Barney McGrew, 5, #710 of 1104 🔗

This is the argument people try to make when they compare Sweden to her neighbours. Sweden failed because the death toll is higher they say. They don’t realise that all they’re actually comparing are numbers that happen to be different. The only meaningful conclusion one can make is that the numbers are different. The fact that the countries are next to each other is irrelevant.

As a simple example, if I say 10 people died in Scotland today and 3 people died in Peru therefore Scotland failed. 10 is higher than 3 therefore 10 failed. This comparison is absolutely meaningless. Would 9 also be a fail, how about 4? Was the objective to get lower than a particular number? What if the objective was 10, would 3 be a fail? If the objective was 5 would both numbers be failures?

You might try to ask what Sweden’s death toll would have been had they locked down and there will be no reasonable answer. “Lower” is the best response anybody may come back with. Of course this is not even a certainty as it would be highly dependent on the circumstances at the time of locking down.

If you ask when would have been the optimum point in time to lock down, there again can be no precise answer. If they try to be smart and say when the numbers of infected were low, you can take it back to the point where there was only 1 infection (again impossible to know if and when that may have been).

If there was only 1 person infected they could be easily isolated without the need to lockdown a whole country.

Yeah but lockdowns must work. Look at New Zealand…will be the ultimate mic drop response to any rational argument.

91837 ▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Nobody2020, 3, #711 of 1104 🔗

But, of course – Sweden’s mortality isn’t that bad. Another myth :

http://inproportion2.talkigy.com/nordic_comparison_4jul.html

91906 ▶▶▶ swedenborg, replying to Nobody2020, 2, #712 of 1104 🔗

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3674138

16 reasons sweden is different than other nordic countries

91836 ▶▶ RickH, replying to Barney McGrew, 3, #713 of 1104 🔗

I’m not sure that ’empiricism’ is the right definition of a frame of mind that denies empirically obtained s fact. The operation of the zombie mind is, I think, a denial (or partial denial) of available sensory (in the widest sense) experience.

91862 ▶▶ Rick08765, replying to Barney McGrew, 3, #714 of 1104 🔗

You use the word “empiricism” wrongly, empiricism mean using available data to make simple and accurate models of a situation without thinking about depepr causes. An empiricist notes that planets orbit the sun, and finds the T^2=k*R^3 relation but doesn’t come up with an inverse square law of gravity from this. An empiricist gets experimental results for volts vs amps in a wire but fits a 5th order polynomial to describe the results. An empiricist sees the virus declining everywhere, but doesn’t try to consider if the decline is due to herd immunity or human action. Empiricism relies on data, it thinks like an AI, no need to really reason but a good knack for spotting patterns and guessing how they’ll continue. Pro-lockdownists are not empiricists, they are purely emotional, they ignore data and don’t guess at patterns, they focus entirely on alarming anecdotes without recognising the bigger picture. Empiricism isn’t as good as reasoning, but it can reach useful conclusions which apply within limited circumstances, the prolockdownists can’t do this at all.

91915 ▶▶▶ TJN, replying to Rick08765, 3, #715 of 1104 🔗

Interesting debate on the philosophical meaning of ’empiricism’. I have no background in philosophy, so can’t comment authoritatively, but having trained as an engineer have never regarded ’empirical’ as a pejorative word. John Locke is one of those people about whom I wish I knew more.

I guess that empiricism in the untrained is vulnerable to confirmation bias – in my view that being now one of the the main faults with pro-lockdownists – and that confirmation bias arises from an essentially emotional (rather than rational) state of mind.

For me, it is incumbent on anyone proposing lockdown to explain what it is intended to achieve, the mechanism by which it will work, and roughly when and under what conditions the restrictions will be lifted.

I have never heard any satisfactory answers to these questions in combination ( except that we must remain in lockdown until a vaccination appears – which is plainly impractical, as it would cause far more damage than it sought to prevent). As far as I can see, any attempt to answer these questions in combination exposes the deep flaws at the heart of the lockdown theory, and its essentially emotional basis.

91916 ▶▶ Alci, replying to Barney McGrew, 2, #716 of 1104 🔗

Perfect summary, thank you.

I studied philosophy, many moons ago. Every week I parsed and critiqued argument, and proposed my own. I loved philosophy of science and mathematical logic. My first job was strategy consulting: analysis, intellectual debate (and yes, plenty of donkey-work modelling). I was “brainwashed” into thinking the solution to every problem was reasoned analysis.

How quaint that seems now.

If you can find the patience (I struggle), the best method I’ve found is to ask questions. And coach people to add baselines. How many people have died? How many have died of other causes? What paper changed the view of the government to introduce masks? But, surely there must have been a paper, since they are “led by the science”?

Though I suppose on their own terms, perhaps what we should do is wave photos of people dying of heart attacks at home, of cancer, of suicide?!

91696 AN other lockdown sceptic, replying to AN other lockdown sceptic, 1, #717 of 1104 🔗

Bill Gates : “You Don’t Have A Choice”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE518ans5dM

91714 ▶▶ Tenchy, replying to AN other lockdown sceptic, 7, #718 of 1104 🔗

“Return to normalcy [normality] when we’ve vaccinated almost the entire global population”. Straight from the horse’s mouth.

91716 ▶▶▶ AN other lockdown sceptic, replying to Tenchy, 5, #719 of 1104 🔗

I know. Chilling.

91721 ▶▶▶ BeBopRockSteady, replying to Tenchy, #720 of 1104 🔗

It’s truly psychotic.

91813 ▶▶▶ Jonathan Palmer, replying to Tenchy, 1, #721 of 1104 🔗

But poor Boris is just incompetent

91822 ▶▶▶ Lisa from Toronto, replying to Tenchy, 5, #722 of 1104 🔗

This is why I call myself a conspiracy realist. Psychopaths like Gates are not even hiding what they want to do to us! “Digital passports” — our vaccination records embedded under our skin to be scanned. This is what the technocrats want and it’s all hiding in plain sight.

91727 ▶▶ Kath Andrews, replying to AN other lockdown sceptic, 4, #723 of 1104 🔗

That man is going to hell. He must know this…he evidently doesn’t care. Weird.

91758 ▶▶▶ Mark II, replying to Kath Andrews, 2, #724 of 1104 🔗

Well you’d have to believe in anything such as an afterlife to think any such thing beyond life now matters, given he’s filthy rich and has seemingly insane power in the world I doubt he gives a shit about people saying he’s going to hell.

We’re of course assuming he is aware that what’s he’s doing makes him a cunt… But he could well genuinely think he’s the world’s saviour

91788 ▶▶ Old Mum, replying to AN other lockdown sceptic, 2, #725 of 1104 🔗

So why is no one questioning this?

91710 AN other lockdown sceptic, replying to AN other lockdown sceptic, 39, #726 of 1104 🔗

We’re currently in The Lake District. It really is bed wetter central. Muzzles everywhere, inside and out. Plastic screens in shops. Crazy one way systems. People using hand sanitiser like they have shares in the stuff. We’ve even seen a little ‘Thank you NHS’ shrine covering a bench.

One snippet I had to share. In the beer garden of the local pub last night, I asked one young member of staff why he was wearing a mask. He mumbled some sort of answer about how he thought he would be safer and that the landlord had said that he would like the staff to wear them. I repeat, this conversation was held outside in the beer garden, in glorious sunshine and he was wearing a mask.

I then asked him how old he was. He was 21. I then suggested that he had near to zero risk of dying from the Corona Plague. He gave me a look that suggested I must have been completely mad to say such a thing.

I then asked him if he knew how many people under 60 had died without pre-existing conditions. His response was 20,000. As everyone on here will know its circa 300, which I of course told him.

I genuinely feel so sorry for people like this young guy. They quite obviously believe that a killer disease is widespread throughout the country, killing otherwise healthy people indiscriminately and without mercy.

I’m extremely angry with the moronic cowards Johnson, Hancock et al who have done this. They should be tried for crimes against humanity. Unfortunately they never will.

91737 ▶▶ annie, replying to AN other lockdown sceptic, 6, #727 of 1104 🔗

Oh yes, they will.
It may take time.
Would Hitler, Himmler, Goering and others gave imagined in, say, 1942, that they would meet the fates they eventually did?

91741 ▶▶▶ AN other lockdown sceptic, replying to annie, 5, #728 of 1104 🔗

I hope that you’re right.

91743 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to annie, 3, #729 of 1104 🔗

I’ve always assumed that they knew they were in trouble if they didn’t pull it off. Certainly, Hitler had no interest in what came after him. The Tausendjäriges Reich was all about him.

91833 ▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to matt, #730 of 1104 🔗

A downvote? Not precious, but would love to know why.

91775 ▶▶ Chris Hume, replying to AN other lockdown sceptic, 14, #731 of 1104 🔗

Well done for asking the young guy the question. At least he might think a bit. I was in the Lake District last week. I didn’t find it as bad as you’ve found it, although there was a Stasi woman in the Village General Store in Coniston and the trip I took with my family on the Derwent Water boat was interesting. We bought tickets hoping to do the ‘hop on-hop off’ trip but was told that this was not available ‘due to Covid’ and therefore a straight trip round the lake was the only option. I accepted it, paid my £28 and queued up. As we got to the boat they announced that face nappies were compulsory. No notices before by the way. My wife who generally compiles because she doesn’t want to cause a fuss had two nappies on her so offered me one. I said, ‘let me speak to them’. The driver said to me ‘You need to wear a mask’. I said ‘’What if I’m exempt?’ He said ‘have you got a medical certificate?’ I replied that he didn’t understand the law and I didn’t need one. He said ‘If you want to get on, you will need to wear a mask or show a medical certificate’. I repeated that it was illegal to refuse me entry on this basis but I would wear it to avoid any issues, but neither of my kids would wear them (15 and 11) and to be fair he just waved me on. Then it got really bizarre. Another guy who was accompanying the passengers spoke to all on board from the jetty. He said that ‘ There is a woman here who is joining the trip who won’t be wearing a mask as she is exempt, but we have checked her medical certificate and it is all in order. Does anybody have a problem with that?’ He saw me shaking my head in incredulity at the sheer ridiculousness of it, but was unaware of my earlier altercation with the driver so asked me directly if I was concerned by her not wearing a mask! I just said ‘no, I just think the whole thing is nuts.’ To be fair he laughed and said ‘I know, but it’s what we have to do’ . As soon as the boat left the jetty I removed the nappy. We passed another boat shortly and waved at them. Within a few seconds the guy came up to me and said I had to put the mask back on. I said that I found it absurd that on a boat in the middle of a lake, they were mandating mask wearing. He agreed but said that the reasoning they got was that it was ‘public transport’ and that the issue was that the wind could carry virus particles from one passenger to the other! I kid you not. I said that was clearly laughable and asked him what would happen if I refused, and he said they would drop me and my family at the next jetty. Nice. Apart from those two examples I found The Lakes ok, No nappy wearing on the climb up Scafell Pike and that was busier than the average supermarket!

91790 ▶▶▶ Lucky, replying to Chris Hume, 8, #732 of 1104 🔗

Thanks. The range of emotions that these kind of stories bring up in me: righteous anger, rage, sadness, hopelessness, incredulity, hilarity, despair, …and on…sometimes it seems all at the same time!

91807 ▶▶▶▶ Chris Hume, replying to Lucky, 5, #733 of 1104 🔗

Agreed. Same here. I think the best overall is hilarity though. The sheer ridiculousness of it all is best served by laughter. I don’t live up to it all the time as I get as angry and exasperated as the next person, and to a certain extent that helps me when I go in shops – like I did today as the only maskless person – and think a bit angrily ‘come on, give me some’. But overall, our best weapon is ridicule and good humour.

91827 ▶▶▶▶▶ Lucky, replying to Chris Hume, 1, #734 of 1104 🔗

Thanks. I had half an old normal day yesterday, involving good friends and (sshh – Music) and (sshh) – Dancing and lots of laughs. That’ll keep me going for a bit.

91832 ▶▶▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Chris Hume, 5, #735 of 1104 🔗

We have been lucky in terms of family, friends and neighbours – a circle in which no-one gives a flying f. about regulations, ‘bubbles’, distancing etc.

But sometimes – as when simply getting into the GPs surgery to have a civilized conversation is like attempting to break into the nick – the sense of humour and equanimity fails.

Hardly surprising. We have slipped back half a millenium to a collective mental state appropriate to the Salem witch trials.

91826 ▶▶▶▶ Achilles, replying to Lucky, 3, #736 of 1104 🔗

Tragicomedy.

91820 ▶▶ RickH, replying to AN other lockdown sceptic, 7, #737 of 1104 🔗

That’s a very good illustration of the damage that is being visited on the unwary.

The Mengele/Goebbels SPI-B tactics have a lot to answer for in terms of the perverted distortions visited on the mass of the population.

The perpetrators should never be forgiven.

91875 ▶▶ karenovirus, replying to AN other lockdown sceptic, 4, #738 of 1104 🔗

I’ve told several people about there being less deaths than the five year average (ONS 8 weeks now), the reaction is always “well why aren’t they telling us ?”.

91719 richard riewer, 1, #739 of 1104 🔗

Joe Biden and his VP choice. Black Masks Matter:
https://www.spiked-online.com/podcast/the-spiked-podcast/

91725 AN other lockdown sceptic, replying to AN other lockdown sceptic, 5, #741 of 1104 🔗

New Paul Joseph Watson videos always cheer me up.

‘Lewis Hamilton is an Idiot’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq2E7LBClnY

91757 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to AN other lockdown sceptic, 4, #742 of 1104 🔗

A good one. It’s funny: throughout Hamilton’s nausea-inducing wokeness this season (not that I follow it in detail) I knew at the back of my mind that there was some cognitive dissonance thing going on; he had done something in the recent past that was the opposite of woke. But the dazzling audacity of his virtue signalling distracted me from thinking about it. But yes…. a couple of years ago he ‘gender shamed’ his nephew, revealing the true non-wokeness of his character in the process.

91784 ▶▶▶ mjr, replying to Barney McGrew, 1, #743 of 1104 🔗

i do wonder if he ever tells his mother that he thinks her life doesnt matter

91729 Tenchy, replying to Tenchy, 11, #745 of 1104 🔗

You think we’re already living in the dystopian future? Well it could get much worse if the likes of Hunt and Blair get their way. Get a load of this in The Telegraph (paywall):

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/08/16/report-calls-digital-coronavirus-passports-help-open-economy/

Some quotes:

Under the proposals, people would be tested as often as every two weeks for coronavirus and keep their results in a app on their phone.

The report from the Tony Blair Institute for Global Change advocates for the implementation of ‘digital’ passports as part of wider calls for mass testing.

In a foreword to the report, Mr [Jeremy] Hunt writes: “We know there is a delicate balance to be struck between health and economic concerns.

The report’s author, strategic adviser at the Tony Blair Institute for Global Change, Ryan Wain said: “It’s almost a passport back to normality. It would allow restaurants to open closer to full capacity, it could help get crowds back in sports stadiums.

They liken their proposal to what’s going on in football, where players are tested as often as twice a week.

So there you have it. If these menaces get their way you’ll be having the ram-rod-nose treatment at least once a fortnight, or you won’t get to go anywhere.

91748 ▶▶ richard riewer, replying to Tenchy, 4, #746 of 1104 🔗

Get screwed!

91755 ▶▶ Mark II, replying to Tenchy, 4, #747 of 1104 🔗

This is the sort of thing to make me feel really depressed before trying to sleep, another restless one then 😏

91759 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to Mark II, 5, #748 of 1104 🔗

Just to make you sleep more peacefully – try to remember the last time anyone listened to Tony Blair and try to remember any time anyone listened to Jeremy Hunt.

91811 ▶▶ DomW, replying to Tenchy, 1, #749 of 1104 🔗

I’ve added my two word comment…

91821 ▶▶ RickH, replying to Tenchy, #750 of 1104 🔗

Well – we know how anything associated with Blair has the stamp of truth and benefits mankind, don’t we?

Ask any citizen of Iraq.

91879 ▶▶ Basics, replying to Tenchy, #751 of 1104 🔗

Thanks for posting that. As an entity blair is one evil the world should have rid itself of long ago. One grave to be danced upon come that happy day. Phone apps, that is such weak policy. Famciful impractical fiction. The very principle of random phone tech being depended upon for freedom is conceptually puny. Don’t have a phone – lost, phone too old, broken, don’t own phone, phone forgotten. We need to outlaw entities like the Blair institute.

91923 ▶▶ WhyNow, replying to Tenchy, 1, #752 of 1104 🔗

“delicate balance to be struck” and guess who gets to strike this balance? The omniscient political class and their journalist friends.

92027 ▶▶ ChrisW, replying to Tenchy, #753 of 1104 🔗

Tony Blair Institute for Global Change

Is there a more sinister sounding institution in the world?

91734 nfw, 3, #754 of 1104 🔗

Global Law Firms Prepare to Sue UK
But not dirty, disgusting, filthy, racist, fascist, cowardly, lying, stealing, cheating China of course.

91744 nfw, replying to nfw, 2, #755 of 1104 🔗

Who’s Managing the Covid Crisis?
Well that would be nobody with half a brain or IQ over 90 wouldn’t it?

91750 ▶▶ matt, replying to nfw, 3, #756 of 1104 🔗

I was tempted to email Toby with an opinion and then I realised that I could see so little evidence of any kind of management that I had nothing to say.

91918 ▶▶▶ Tom Blackburn, replying to matt, 4, #757 of 1104 🔗

From day one – when the govt kept repeating the manta of “following the science” – I got chills about the efficacy of the decision-making process.

Anyone who has ever sat in a safeguarding meeting of any kind will know that EVERY involved agency needs representation and different areas of expertise are a must. So I dig a little deeper – check out SAGE meeting minutes. Who attends, who contributes, who leads (should be the lead decision-making agency ie govt)? Not clear; minutes are a poor representation and appear to record general discussions only. Responsibility diluted – not a promising start. No one from social care, nobody representing children or business, no police, no legal. Hmmm. Now it is starting to err from incompetence more towards collusion. Unless I’ve missed it, at no point does anyone suggest a certain area may be beyond the group’s competency. Instead co-opting even more scientists to discuss ways to enforce behavioural changes.

The war-footing analogy has been overused but is valid. Children were evacuated, women were sent to work, the old were given renewed purpose – there were a whole range of decisions made which were aimed at safeguarding the nation. Not just ‘buy more guns’, ‘give army more money’. It doesn’t help that Boris is an A1 slacker who is consistently trying to find ways of not doing his job.

91773 ▶▶ Steve Martindale, replying to nfw, 7, #758 of 1104 🔗

I was the reader who wrote in and initiated this item. Project management is just about having a systematic, logical and comprehensive management approach, not difficult but does need some thought and application. It amazes me that the likes of hapless Hancock and witless Whitty are paid such large salaries, are in charge of such large budgets and are making key decisions that affect all our lives and yet seem to have such little basic management ability, as per the phrase ‘could not run the local whelk stall’.

91793 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to Steve Martindale, 9, #759 of 1104 🔗

To plan and then manage a project, you need to have a clear understanding of the end result.

What is conspicuously absent at the moment is any ability to describe the endgame. Even a vaccine (putting aside all discussions about the value of vaccines) is very unlikely to be effective enough that we won’t have to worry about the effect on the elderly, even assuming it’s both ‘round the corner and safe.

Does the government have a clear objective?

Not that we can see.

If we don’t understand the objective, is the problem that they do not have a clear objective, or that they are failing to communicate the objective?

As far as I can tell, the answer is that they do not have an objective. Putting aside the theoretical objectives of conspiring outside forces and assuming that they are not stupid enough to think that the virus can be eliminated with or without a vaccine (please god, let them not think that) it’s hard to escape the conclusion that they’re making it up as they go along and they have no idea what they’re trying to achieve.

Absent an objective, you can’t plan. Without a plan, you can’t manage.

It may be that they know exactly where they’re heading, but have failed to communicate it properly (or at all). I’m inclined to dismiss this. Johnson is or was a good communicator and there are plenty of political advisors and civil servants who could help frame a communication.

I’m not going to credentialise, but I’m not a stranger to project or departmental management. I’ll just say it again – if you don’t know where you’re heading and you don’t know where you want to go, and/or you can’t communicate the goal, you cannot provide any kind of management and you can expect that the people looking to you for direction will pull in opposite directions. And then you have entropy.

Toby’s characterisation of Johnson as a toddler at the wheel of a racing car looks about right to me.

91828 ▶▶▶▶ RickH, replying to matt, 2, #760 of 1104 🔗

the answer is that they do not have an objective.”

I have wavered on the intent/blind stupidity question. But, at the moment, whilst seeing a mixture of both, I am moving back towards seeing a high proportion of the stupidity factor amongst the world’s gauleiters. Many are really out of their depth in terms of rational analysis and judgment.

The image of Mr Toad is an apt one. Although he has been quite rational in the sphere of promoting his babyish narcissism, he has that brand of wider essential stupidity that is not at odds with narrow political scheming, and, indeed goes with the Bertie Wooster Bullingdon idiot act. Eton exists to promote such people beyond their real capabilities – even without a PPE degree, which is another useful adjunct.

91842 ▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to RickH, 3, #761 of 1104 🔗

His degree was Greats (classics) as it happens.

Regardless, he’s out of his depth. They all are. It’s not even a rudderless ship – the rudder is still there, but nobody knows what the hell to do with it.

91890 ▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to matt, 4, #762 of 1104 🔗

Like Christopher Columbus, who famously set out not knowing where he was going, when he got there didn’t know where he was, when he got back didn’t know where he had been, and did it all on other people’s money.

91830 ▶▶▶ Bruno, replying to Steve Martindale, 2, #763 of 1104 🔗

There’s a fair bit of expertise in managing large programmes of projects in Government. But here we’re on a war footing. Tactical objectives may have to be sacrificed at speed and it’s easy to lose sight of the strategic aim. You might express that as to bring the country through crisis with as little loss of life as possible, commensurate with maintaining essential services and social cohesion. Vaccine would then be recognisable as just a tactical goal, to be sacrificed if the overriding aim could be met in other ways. What seems to be lacking at present is the ability to keep up with fresh intelligence, evaluate it correctly, change course in light of it, and then crack on towards your goal.

91975 ▶▶▶▶ Alci, replying to Bruno, #764 of 1104 🔗

It’s not about managing large projects – as you don’t quite say, bureaucrats specialise in managing large projects, for ever and ever amen, ever larger and slower and more complex.

What they don’t do is strategy. Decisive leadership whipping everything into line and keeping focus. And crucially adjusting goal (transparently!) if the underlying logic changes. Humility baked into the culture.

As for running projects, I assume they know this stuff, even if they don’t implement it properly:
Quantifiable goal. Work streams that logically drive to that goal with clear responsibilities, led by accountable leaders. Regular (not too regular, or that’s all you do) and *brief* updates to the centre.

Darn it, sometimes I think running strategy projects was much easier than raising toddlers.

92056 ▶▶▶▶▶ Bruno, replying to Alci, #765 of 1104 🔗

You and me are on the same page (including the toddlers…) I originally included some disparaging remarks about govt projects, and a couple of links to their publications – did you know the people at the top of their Major Infrastucture Projects Unit (can’t recall exact title) are – Robert Jenrick & Oliver Dowden? Nuff said…But cut it, as text was getting too long. I was making the point that this is unlike a PMgt situation, more like war .

91747 richard riewer, -2, #766 of 1104 🔗

Shaganappi is a residential neighbourhood in the southwest quadrant of Calgary, Alberta.

91749 AN other lockdown sceptic, replying to AN other lockdown sceptic, 3, #767 of 1104 🔗

Lockdowns are destroying America
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhAB97esb6w

91760 ▶▶ MadJock1, replying to AN other lockdown sceptic, 2, #768 of 1104 🔗

Excellent video. Nice to see some sanity from the other side of the pond. Seems as rare thee as it is here.

91751 assoc, replying to assoc, 5, #769 of 1104 🔗

Can these figures really be correct? According to worldometers there are 930 in hospital with covid. There are somewhere between 120,000 and 167,000 hospital beds! Presumably the vast majority of these are empty. WTF is going on?

91764 ▶▶ Cruella, replying to assoc, 2, #770 of 1104 🔗

I don’t know about the covid stats but the hospitals ain’t empty, mine is at full capacity +++. So back to normal on that front.

91874 ▶▶ karenovirus, replying to assoc, #771 of 1104 🔗

None in my large regional hospital for several weeks now.

91752 MadJock1, replying to MadJock1, 7, #772 of 1104 🔗

Can we start a league table for the most excruciatingly annoying COVID related TV ads. I’m managing to avoid the MSM news / current affairs propaganda but I can’t seem to watch anything on TV without some BS ad or another coming on.

I’ll start off with two real sick ones from the rainbow cult. Know they have both been mentioned before but how in God’s name can the cost of this garbage be justified.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YozNOqbd26Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=En-mSI17LRE

But my present winner of the most vomit inducing piece of advertising goes to this epic extolling the virtue of “safe” holidays in Turkey (again sure it will have been commented on before)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7LNSYTKnqA

It makes me want to rush out and chuck myself under a bus.

91754 ▶▶ Kath Andrews, replying to MadJock1, 10, #773 of 1104 🔗

I haven’t watched any TV at home at all since THAT DAY, the only time I’ve caught a bit of TV is when I go over my mate’s and he has it on for his dad. I’ve seen a couple of adverts and I’m shocked – in horror – really at the adverts that I’ve had the misfortune to see. Most of them celebrating the lockdown – it’s wonderful cooking whilst chatting to nan over zoom, masked twats….Arrrgh!!!

91763 ▶▶▶ OKUK, replying to Kath Andrews, 5, #774 of 1104 🔗

I think the most annoying and probably illegal ad is the Uber shite…the one where they try to make mask wearing look trendy and then end up with the big message: no mask, no ride.

91765 ▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to OKUK, 10, #775 of 1104 🔗

I’m all in with that deal. No ride it is.

91774 ▶▶▶▶▶ OKUK, replying to matt, 11, #776 of 1104 🔗

If you make me part with my dignity, I won’t part with my money.

91779 ▶▶▶▶ Kath Andrews, replying to OKUK, 6, #777 of 1104 🔗

Uber are peddling – this evil shite – don’t watch TV, but I am aware that they have been zealotting (I know it’s not a word) to the max.
The weird irony is Uber are breaking the law….somebody on LS posted the most recent coronabollox govt. update earlier today – most helpful and thank you (sincere apologies for not recalling the name of this person)…

Gov.uk – updated 14.08.20
“Those who have an age, health or disability reason for not wearing a face covering should not be routinely asked to give any written evidence of this, this includes exemption cards. NO PERSON NEEDS TO SEEK ADVICE OR REQUEST A LETTER FROM A MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL ABOUT THEIR REASONS FOR NOT WEARING A FACE COVERING.
Some people may feel more comfortable showing something that says they do not have to wear a face covering. This could be in the form of an exemption card, badge or even a home-made sign. This is personal choice and it is not necessary in law.”

91780 ▶▶▶ Old Mum, replying to Kath Andrews, 4, #778 of 1104 🔗

Happy watching reruns of Agatha Christie’s ‘Miss Marple’ – takes me to a place which doesn’t resemble what is going on in the real world 🙁 Oh, wait a minute – mass murder!

91782 ▶▶▶▶ Kath Andrews, replying to Old Mum, 4, #779 of 1104 🔗

Yep – mass murder it is. I could fucking scream (no, wait, I’ve down that multitude times already over recent months) about the unforgivable loss of life – the way elderly people have been treated…..gin – and off back in to the garden to scream again….

91889 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Kath Andrews, 1, #780 of 1104 🔗

We record all our TV programmes and fast-forward through the ads. Bingo!

91778 ▶▶▶ MadJock1, replying to Steeve, 2, #782 of 1104 🔗

Amazing Thailand Safety and Health Administration (SHA) certification, is awarded for meeting the basic standards of hygiene and health safety for their products and services” Basic standards!!!!!!!!! Jesus – WTF

91789 ▶▶▶▶ Steeve, replying to MadJock1, 1, #783 of 1104 🔗

I missed meeting the basic standards” !!!!

91795 ▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to MadJock1, #784 of 1104 🔗

I’ll take “basic standards” over “Covid secure”

91802 ▶▶▶▶▶ Steeve, replying to matt, 1, #785 of 1104 🔗

Have you seen the video? No idea what the next level of standards could be!

91806 ▶▶ Edward, replying to MadJock1, 3, #786 of 1104 🔗

I hate these bloody adverts with people on Zoom or whatever, with the low-resolution audio. “Hey folks, we’re just like you, we’re doing this too!”

91873 ▶▶ karenovirus, replying to MadJock1, 2, #787 of 1104 🔗

Have not had a telly for 15 years, stopped buying the Telegraph in March. If the propaganda gets too much on R2 or 4 I have an excellent ad free Community Radio show with no chat at all just plays the, sometimes unexpected music.

91878 ▶▶ Eddie, replying to MadJock1, 2, #788 of 1104 🔗

The TV adverts here in Canada are quickly getting all masked up. It’s like companies are falling over themselves to be the first to update their brand with this new and accepted virtue.
A year from now I think every commercial will be in new normal format. Exhalting our new normal ways of life and with a glowing acceptance of them in every frame.
Thankfully I only watch the golf channel so I shouldn’t lose my mind for a while.

91888 ▶▶ annie, replying to MadJock1, 2, #789 of 1104 🔗

Chuck a zombie instead.
I think you need to be wearing a mask before you can be chucked under public transport.

91762 annie, replying to annie, 11, #790 of 1104 🔗

There’s been some discussion of the impossibility of arguing with zombies.
In A Yankee at the Court of King Arthur , Mark Twain sums up the reasoning powers of the average person:

What do you pay a pound for salt?”

“A hundred milrays.”

“We pay forty. What do you pay for beef and mutton—when you buy it?” That was a neat hit; it made the color come.

“It varieth somewhat, but not much; one may say seventy-five milrays the pound.”

We pay thirty-three. What do you pay for eggs?”

“Fifty milrays the dozen.”

“We pay twenty. What do you pay for beer?”

“It costeth us eight and one-half milrays the pint.”

“We get it for four; twenty-five bottles for a cent. What do you pay for wheat?”

“At the rate of nine hundred milrays the bushel.”

“We pay four hundred. What do you pay for a man’s tow-linen suit?”

“Thirteen cents.”

“We pay six. What do you pay for a stuff gown for the wife of the laborer or the mechanic?”

“We pay eight cents, four mills.”

“Well, observe the difference: you pay eight cents and four mills, we pay only four cents.” I prepared now to sock it to him. I said: “Look here, dear friend, what’s become of your high wages you were bragging so about a few minutes ago? “—and I looked around on the company with placid satisfaction, for I had slipped up on him gradually and tied him hand and foot, you see, without his ever noticing that he was being tied at all. “What’s become of those noble high wages of yours?—I seem to have knocked the stuffing all out of them, it appears to me.”

But if you will believe me, he merely looked surprised, that is all! he didn’t grasp the situation at all, didn’t know he had walked into a trap, didn’t discover that he was in a trap. I could have shot him, from sheer vexation. With cloudy eye and a struggling intellect he fetched this out:

“Marry, I seem not to understand. It is proved that our wages be double thine; how then may it be that thou’st knocked therefrom the stuffing?—an miscall not the wonderly word, this being the first time under grace and providence of God it hath been granted me to hear it.

91767 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to annie, 1, #791 of 1104 🔗

Very good!

91768 ▶▶ Lucky, replying to annie, 1, #792 of 1104 🔗

Wow! Love Mark Twain. Thanks for that.

91770 ▶▶ OKUK, replying to annie, 6, #793 of 1104 🔗

The modern equivalent. Politicians. media and economists like to pretend that if GDP rises 3% every UK citizens is 3% better off.

92050 ▶▶ Fiat, replying to annie, #794 of 1104 🔗

Nice timing. Currently listening to Rick Wakeman’s “Myths and Legends of King Arthur etc.” album.
Will Arthur return in our hour of deadliest danger?

91769 mrjoeaverage, replying to mrjoeaverage, 3, #795 of 1104 🔗

This is honestly a genuine question…..
I work from home for my own company, and strictly, do not “need” to be in the UK!
Is there anywhere relatively normal I can disappear to for 12 months whilst this all blows over (hopefully) and IMPORTANTLY, not worry about masks?
In particular, I do not fancy the cold weather in the colder months of Scandinavia, so anywhere but there.
I tried to ask Google, but I got a load of unhelpful propaganda!

91771 ▶▶ BJJ, replying to mrjoeaverage, 1, #796 of 1104 🔗

You´ll have to retreat into the country somewhere, Sicily maybe, somewhere in Africa or I don´t know really.

91776 ▶▶ matt, replying to mrjoeaverage, 3, #797 of 1104 🔗

I spent 4 months in Stockholm over the winter about 18 years ago and it was miserably cold and dark (though Stockholm is a lovely city). I’ve been back in the winter many times since and it’s been nowhere near so bad. Still dark. Less cold.

Given that Swedenborg is telling us that Sweden is heading for masks, Denmark seems a good option. Copenhagen is another really nice town.

91796 ▶▶▶ Steeve, replying to matt, 1, #798 of 1104 🔗

How about a Yacht off the East Coast of Africa – Maybe not – Pirates!

91905 ▶▶▶ swedenborg, replying to matt, #799 of 1104 🔗

Unfortunately Denmak,Norway and Finland have all mandated masks in public transport(all countries led by caring females).They are still trying to stop the nonsense in Sweden but the pressure is unfortunately building up.

91955 ▶▶▶▶ kf99, replying to swedenborg, #800 of 1104 🔗

Some would say Scandi winters are more pleasant than the UK: less rain, more cold sunny days rather than damp grey ones.

91801 ▶▶ JulieR, replying to mrjoeaverage, 2, #801 of 1104 🔗

I suggest Malta: nice climate, relaxed people, English speaking.

91772 Tenchy, #802 of 1104 🔗

Some good news from South Africa:

The Telegraph (paywall):

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/08/16/south-africa-announces-easing-lockdown-alcohol-cigarette-sales/

They are returning to “Level 2” restrictions:

From Wikipedia:

Level 2 – Further easing of restrictions, maintenance of social distancing.

All restrictions on inter-provincial travel will be lifted;
Accommodation facilities will be permitted, in line with approved protocols;
Restaurants, bars and taverns will be permitted to operate subject to regulations;
Restrictions on the sale of tobacco will be lifted;
Prohibition on the sale of alcohol will be lifted subject to restrictions. On-site consumption will be permitted until 22h00, while offsite consumption will be allowed from Monday to Thursday between 09h00 – 22h00.
Restrictions on family and social visits will be lifted, but caution is urged;
Gyms and fitness centres can open, with approved protocols in place;
The curfew will remain in place from 22h00 – 04h00;
Gatherings of more than 50 people are still prohibited, as are sports events with spectators;
International travel is still prohibited outside of the existing regulations

Not sure why they want to maintain a curfew.

91781 Liam, replying to Liam, 16, #803 of 1104 🔗

I’ve come to the conclusion that a concerted effort is underway to drive independent thinkers to suicide.

91785 ▶▶ Kath Andrews, replying to Liam, 9, #804 of 1104 🔗

They will not win. I’ve been so depressed throughout all of this – hey, I’m hardly alone.
Personally, I can be a bit of a glass half empty girl…but I don’t know….so many people seem to know what’s going on here – not just on this site (which has been a Godsend) but in every day life. Would I dare to say that 65% – 70% are ‘awake’ or ‘waking up’?

91791 ▶▶▶ Liam, replying to Kath Andrews, 5, #805 of 1104 🔗

I’m not optimistic on those stats, but I point blank refuse to give up.

91808 ▶▶▶▶ Kath Andrews, replying to Liam, 3, #806 of 1104 🔗

Never give up!

91815 ▶▶▶▶ Kath Andrews, replying to Liam, 16, #807 of 1104 🔗

Shared an office today with my colleague – she is a very intelligent person. We got on to the inevitable topic….on the one hand she was “the virus has taken so many”, “I went to the pub last night and it was so clean, I had my space and there was hand sanitiser…I just felt so relieved that I knew no one is going to come near me”….could go on, as she did …..I tentatively raised other things – started off with the breaking down of the food supply chain – she quickly said “my husband and I have been talking about this and we’ve decided to grow our own veg, it makes sense, I think I could give up meat…there’s a lot you can do with veg you know…”

They know …deep down.

91886 ▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Kath Andrews, 4, #808 of 1104 🔗

Grow your own stupid. Anybody can do it.

91818 ▶▶▶ Lisa from Toronto, replying to Kath Andrews, 11, #809 of 1104 🔗

I’ve been depressed as well. The only other time in my life I’ve been depressed is after my kids were born, but even then I knew this too shall pass. Unfortunately, I’m not as convinced that covidmania will pass. The virus might be gone, but will we ever get life as we knew it back? I’m so glad for this forum and I’m trying to stay hopeful but many days it’s hard.

91824 ▶▶▶▶ Kath Andrews, replying to Lisa from Toronto, 10, #810 of 1104 🔗

We will win. Mass disobedience is the key. Just don’t do it. You are not on your own.

91838 ▶▶▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Kath Andrews, 5, #811 of 1104 🔗

The problem is in the ‘mass’ bit.

91885 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Kath Andrews, 6, #812 of 1104 🔗

My suster, who is in the ‘neutral’,’heads-down’ csmp as far as there is one, is wholly confident that muzzling won’t last. Hope she is right!

91804 ▶▶ matt, replying to Liam, 3, #813 of 1104 🔗

No. Raise a glass of something strong, because we’re privileged to be in a position to watch the inmates running the asylum.

Please come equipped with some detachment and a sense of superiority.

91867 ▶▶▶ Lucky, replying to matt, #814 of 1104 🔗

Detachment? Sense of superiority? Who does that remind me of?

91877 ▶▶ Eddie, replying to Liam, 5, #815 of 1104 🔗

I’ll take dying for a cause rather than giving up without a fight

91887 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Eddie, 3, #816 of 1104 🔗

Hear hear.
And remember; we are alive, we are living, thinking, feeling beings. We are human.
Zombies aren’t. And do you think zombies are happier than we are?

91919 ▶▶ ConstantBees, replying to Liam, 3, #817 of 1104 🔗

I’ve had my moments as well. Sat and tried to work out the point at which that becomes a rational choice on several occasions.

For me, music helps. Listening to Killing in the Name by Rage Against the Machine brings me back from the brink. Helps that the chorus is “Now ya do what they told ya” followed later by “fuck you, I won’t do what you tell me.” Loud and satisfying.

Anger and depression are two sides of the same coin. Rage turned outwards and rage turned inwards.

92047 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to ConstantBees, #818 of 1104 🔗

RATM very good for boosting energy. Another good one is Killing Joke’s “I am the virus”.

Funny how the raw energy in music can be turned in any direction. My impression is that your and my wider politics are probably pretty fundamentally divergent, (and yours probably much closer to the general political sympathies of the two groups mentioned), but we can both use the energy provided.

91783 Peter Thompson, replying to Peter Thompson, 17, #819 of 1104 🔗

Didn’t take long for my earlier predictions to turn into reality. St Jacinda has postponed the NZ election . In other news the NZ hospitals in Auckland ( the only sizeable city in NZ ) have cancelled all elective surgery. Sense of deja vu ?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/headlines.cfm?c_id=1

91798 ▶▶ Lucky, replying to Peter Thompson, 5, #820 of 1104 🔗

..head in hands….

91800 ▶▶ matt, replying to Peter Thompson, 12, #821 of 1104 🔗

But don’t worry – it’s Saint Jacinda. It’s not like it’s some horrible tyrant like Trump who’s suspending democracy.

91816 ▶▶ Lisa from Toronto, replying to Peter Thompson, 11, #822 of 1104 🔗

Postponed for a month and won’t be postponed again…yeah, right. Explain to me how she is not a dictator?

91823 ▶▶ Achilles, replying to Peter Thompson, 13, #823 of 1104 🔗

But wait a minute I thought she’d solved Coronavirus? Definitely remember lots of smiling photos and gushing BBC articles a few months ago.

91864 ▶▶▶ Rick08765, replying to Achilles, 2, #824 of 1104 🔗

In politics “solved” just means delayed long enough to make it someone else’s problem, I’m glad to see her fascistic lockdown tactics didn’t even accomplish as much delay as she hoped. COVID-19 can be her problem, and the only way she’ll get out of it is embracing herd immunity.

91904 ▶▶ swedenborg, replying to Peter Thompson, 9, #825 of 1104 🔗

St Jacinda has a problem for her PC agenda. Many of the new cases seem to be Pacific Islanders, Maoris.The Chief MO has been quickly out in the media trying to stop false rumours spreading around. But someone can get a nasty idea like this. Why change the quarantine just now and have cases concentrated in camps outside the capital guarded by the military?  Is that because before it was white New Zealanders?But I suppose MSM would never ask that type of question to a Saint

91792 stefarm, replying to stefarm, 32, #826 of 1104 🔗

Observations from the dinner table. All 6 people will refuse a vaccine. All barring me wear a mask as it’s the rule although all hate it. 1 person has terrible anxiety when wearing one and all know it’s bollocks.

Reminded all of the guidelines and rule of not wearing one if it causes distress etc. Understood and noted.

Although mention of people not following 1 way systems in shops and concerned if people are not s distancing. Told them they are being brainwashed and not to worry.

Major progress made.

All also agree something more sinister going on behind the scenes.

91805 ▶▶ Kath Andrews, replying to stefarm, 1, #827 of 1104 🔗

I believe there is – agenda 2030 (our lovely UN) the dystopian mad hell of World Economic Forum (global reset).

digital freedom platform
https://freedomplatform.tv/plandemic-indoctornation-world-premiere/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwsuP5BRCoARIsAPtX_wFKfu4Jx4O23rcaTUl5b8wfmETE7vMe3KPJ4dAxkd6D7pLSwhaYyfsaAnj7EALw_wcB

Tuesday it is then…

If you like it (have no idea – nobody in the public has yet seen it)…share share and share -this film will get deleted super fast.

91814 ▶▶▶ Lisa from Toronto, replying to Kath Andrews, #828 of 1104 🔗

Don’t worry, it won’t get deleted. Brian Rose has already been de-platformed and his digital freedom platform is his alone and cannot be taken down.

91819 ▶▶▶▶ Kath Andrews, replying to Lisa from Toronto, 1, #829 of 1104 🔗

Bloody wonderful! Thank you 🙂

91834 ▶▶ jim j, replying to stefarm, 11, #830 of 1104 🔗

I think this inability to be able to rationally process the actions of governments is driving a lot of people towards conspiracy theories. Could I just suggest Occams Razor to everyone – you don’t want to believe it, but didn’t the Brexit torture give you suggestions as to just how incompetent and mealy mouthed the current crop of politicians are?? They are riven and driven by a 24 hour news cycle and as demanding as your lap dog of attention. As if they could organise a conspiracy!!
Also, I’m delighted to report almost 50% of shoppers mask free at M&S this evening. Congrats to the 25-35 age group females who have consistently been massless all along, it is spreading!!

91840 ▶▶▶ RickH, replying to jim j, 5, #831 of 1104 🔗

I think a lot of people have indeed been using the good old Occam shaver ….. and have found themselves facing (forget the loaded ‘conspiracy’ adjective) a situation – at least partially – of intent as a rationale, rather than just incompetence or stupidity.

91853 ▶▶▶▶ Lucky, replying to RickH, #832 of 1104 🔗

INTENT!!

91852 ▶▶▶ Lucky, replying to jim j, #833 of 1104 🔗

INTENT!!

91876 ▶▶▶ Eddie, replying to jim j, 13, #834 of 1104 🔗

I’ve been watching the world for 17 years with a certain mindset and there’s nothing more obvious than you know what. But that’s just me and I don’t need anyone else to be on board. I don’t care what Toby, or you, or anyone else on here blames this pandemic on (theorizing is the fools game after all – it doesn’t matter at this point).

We are here now and we are strongly united by a disgust for the lies and shambolic handling of this global event. Born Canadian, I will always feel a close bond with the UK and its citizens, and this site is bringing all you good people to me at a time in my life when I feel intellectually isolated by all this foolery. Family, most friends, nah…don’t even bother trying to awaken them. It’s a great honour to be witness to your suffering, your resolve, your anger and your desire to awaken the masses.
Most amazing of all, you people have made me laugh more in the past 4 or 5 weeks than I have in years, real life and online. The absurdity of all this is a treasure chest for anyone with a funny bone.

Keep it coming you all and keep the resolve strong!!

91883 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to jim j, 8, #835 of 1104 🔗

I agree about conspiracy theories. They aren’t necessary. Stupid, scared and selfish explains it all.
Moreover, a lot of sane, sensible people distrust conspiracy theories on principle because there are so many silly ones around and always have been.It gives our enemies an excuse to portray us as hysterical conspiracy fans, and to ignore all the true and devastating things that are said here,

91898 ▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to jim j, 8, #836 of 1104 🔗

To me the idea that this world wide synchronised destruction of the liberty and livelihoods of all people is merely the result of incompetent is the most absurd theory of all – and there are some quite absurd conspiracy theories. I don’t think politicians in the main are the driving force behind this but I do think many have received offers they cannot refuse and the rest just follow the herd.

91872 ▶▶ karenovirus, replying to stefarm, 13, #837 of 1104 🔗

Observation from the transport cafe, almost all indications of Covid Safety entirely gone. Nobody wearing masks, table service gone, one way system ignored, sanitizer station removed; just the rapidly wearing hazard tape on the floor remains.
Uniformed Police came in the other day, they were just interested in getting coffee.

91884 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to karenovirus, 3, #838 of 1104 🔗

Cheer-oh!

91831 richard riewer, 1, #839 of 1104 🔗

Everybody should listen to the Dolores Cahill interview with James Delingpole at the end of May, 2020. By the way, she’s an Immunologist and has worked on creating vaccines.

91839 jim j, replying to jim j, 2, #840 of 1104 🔗

Calling all Constitutional Lawyers, and casting for Gina Miller’s :
Given we seem to have all the time in the world, how do we demand a referendum on state powers to curtail civil liberties?? We the people, we could take back control couldn’t we??
I’d love to know the true %age of the population genuinely still concerned for their health. Got to be well less than 50% surely??

91841 ▶▶ RickH, replying to jim j, #841 of 1104 🔗

Good luck with that, Dr Pangloss 🙂

91846 ▶▶▶ RickH, replying to RickH, 8, #842 of 1104 🔗

Sorry. I realise that could sound simply dismissive. It’s not meant that way.

It’s actually an irony evoked by personal experience – to a great extent from talking with those who essentially agree about the basics and who I hold dear.

… but there is a strong thread of ‘OK – it’s rubbish. But we need to just get on with our lives, and things will move on’.

I am actually amazed at the lack of a desire for active rebellion amongst the younger generations who will otherwise get quite heated over matters of principle. I would love to be proved wrong, but I’m regarded as a bit of an Old Fart throwback to the hippy generation when I express outrage.

91847 ▶▶▶▶ jim j, replying to RickH, 1, #843 of 1104 🔗

Making it political and a cause is something that seems to rally the younger – they love a cause! Be cynical, lets give them something they can get their righteous milk teeth in to!

91854 ▶▶▶▶▶ RickH, replying to jim j, 11, #844 of 1104 🔗

Jim – that’s what I’m saying. They are aware of the cause and its politics – but they are not stirred to action. They just want it to go away.

The withdrawal of furlough might give an impulse, but none of the individuals I’m thinking of are affected by that – it’s certainly not a case of ‘I’m alright Jack’. Their jobs – ranging from university research and school teaching to theatre and sport activity – have all become more difficult and detached. But – possibly – the concept of taking arms against the sea of troubles seems to be too immense a task; heads down and the weather will change.

Perhaps what I’m seeing here is the worst aspect of the psy-ops : not only compliance, but a sense of impotence.

92948 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ jim j, replying to RickH, #845 of 1104 🔗

Rick, are you still there? How about today for an amazing showcase of how readily this govt will bend – not a fab argument made by a very small minority of school students, the media hopped on board, and the govt that’s made for turning, turns. It really looks pretty easy! I re-propose my initial point. We just need a touchy feely focal point and it’s off to the races!

91869 ▶▶▶▶ karenovirus, replying to RickH, 7, #846 of 1104 🔗

I posted yesterday on how 8 out 9 conversations ended in agreement that masks are rubbish and maybe the Covid is too. But none of them suggested doing anything about it “,just get on with our lives…”

91897 ▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to jim j, 3, #847 of 1104 🔗

Our natural rights should never be subject to a vote. No human grants me my natural rights and no human can remove them – they can only choose to violate them. Democracy does not respect liberty.

91860 BobT, replying to BobT, 31, #848 of 1104 🔗

I am a chess player. Often, if I am outplayed, I will retire even when there are half the pieces left on the board.

In this present chess game, we have emotion playing white and logic playing black.

On the white side, we have all the emotionally motivated people, all of social media, the religions, the press, the politicians and all the members of their cults who have been brainwashed. On the same side there are the people of Victoria, Australia who think its a good thing that their police should physically abuse young women, we have the Soviet style snitches in the UK and US. we have people who despise those who have travelled abroad, we have the ‘grany killer’ accusers, the curtain twitchers, the ones enjoying their furlough money, the teachers who are too scared of being infected by the filthy children they are supposed to teach and will not go back to work. On this side also are the likes of Matt Hancock who instead of admitting PHE’s errors, proceeds to disband them in an effort to hide their, and his own, mistakes.

On the black side we have Toby Young, all the readers here plus the few smart people like Carl Heneghan and one or two others.

Worldwide, of the approx. 7 billion people, 6.9 billion are on the white side and about 100 million are on the black side.

This chess game is lost and it was lost a long time ago.

So,where do we go from here? We have to accept defeat and embrace the ‘ new normal’ which the white side have been promoting.
Unfortunately, they have got the definition wrong, the ‘new normal’ will actually be monstrous unemployment in Europe and the US, a depression way worse than the 1930’s one, worldwide poverty levels doubled (or more) leading to starvation of millions along with people fighting for resources which will likely lead to international conflicts or wars.

In about ten years time, when everyone has reached rock bottom, we can have another chess game and black will win.

I am an optimist.

91870 ▶▶ Eddie, replying to BobT, 6, #849 of 1104 🔗

Great analogy Bob. I’ve known what we’re up against for years but this fiasco is truly shining a light on the intellect gap.

91882 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Eddie, 9, #850 of 1104 🔗

But a lot of the white (or rather lily-livered) players are supposed to be intelligent. They include the President if the Royal Society, for God’s sake.

C. S. Lewis: ‘The worst thing about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed.’

91941 ▶▶ BJJ, replying to BobT, 6, #851 of 1104 🔗

It is becoming more and more obvious that it is not starvation, it is
not microbes, it is not cancer, but man himself who is his greatest
danger: because he has no adequate protection against psychic
epidemics, which are are infinitely more devastating in their effect
than the greatest natural catastrophes.
Carl Jung

91871 karenovirus, replying to karenovirus, 5, #852 of 1104 🔗

Toby’s link to the Sun article: Liverpool ASDA woman complaining about their not enforcing mask wearing.

The exact same story leads in my Local Live Online but I’m hundreds of miles from Liverpool so it means they had to cast their net very widely to come up with this ‘story’

ie. not much of it about.

91881 ▶▶ annie, replying to karenovirus, 6, #853 of 1104 🔗

It’s becoming an urban myth, like the one about the axe-murderer in the multi-storey.

91896 ▶▶ Lockdown_Lunacy, replying to karenovirus, 2, #854 of 1104 🔗

For some reason my phone sent me a notification linking me to the same article in a Plymouth based paper. I’ve never even been to Plymouth so no idea why, but yeah the story is everywhere.

91910 ▶▶ Strange Days, replying to karenovirus, 3, #855 of 1104 🔗

Reach media, formerly the Mirror group, own the ‘Xyzshire Live’ sites. No local reporters just reader submissions and a lot of non local content for financial reasons. I would not be surprised to find this story originated with a PR agency paid by a Quango, well aware that the content would be recycled everywhere.

91891 Basics, replying to Basics, 12, #857 of 1104 🔗

One of the unexpected consequences of 2020 has been the deeper understanding of previous periods in human history. The rise of evil in 1930s Germany. One integral part of that was the use of Jews to scape goat ills and thereby bolster the Nationalist Socialism. Well just gee, if Scottish Nationalism hasn’t been displaying a fetid hatred towards English people, and Welsh.

Here is some more from the american Devi Sridah, 36, the rhodes scholar who is professor at edinburgh university. Devi is the chosen public health nonexpert to Nipolean and has now shown an anti-English pattern in her public comments over several issues. This is surprising given she is not a politician but merely a publuc health entity. Our lives would be better without Devi, here is her latest outrage –

From the Express
“Professor Devi Sridhar said people from south of the border and Wales were generating “a stream of incoming infections”. The Chair of Global Public Health at the University of Edinburgh said in a New York Times comment piece that being part of the UK is threatening Nicola Sturgeon’s efforts to combat COVID-19.”
[…]
“But neither nation has control over its borders because they are parts of the United Kingdom.

“So both now face a stream of incoming infections from England and Wales, which are behaving more like the rest of Europe, as well as from people returning from holidays abroad and not abiding by government advice to isolate for 14 days.”

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1323469/nicola-sturgeon-scotland-coroanvirus-cases-devi-sridhar-edinburgh-university-snp-holyrood

You can see in her eyes the Sridhar is not a friendly, 36 year old, professor. Her smile is false. As unpleasant as person as you could hope to meet.

91894 ▶▶ karenovirus, replying to Basics, 10, #859 of 1104 🔗

Imagine the reaction to “a stream of incoming infections from people arriving at Heathrow from India and Pakistan.”

91944 ▶▶▶ Mark II, replying to karenovirus, 3, #860 of 1104 🔗

Quite rightly too, it’s disgraceful language sturgeon and her outriders wre using, but do we expect anything else?? The woman is mentally unhinged and enjoying every moment of this it seems to me.

91949 ▶▶▶▶ kf99, replying to Mark II, 1, #861 of 1104 🔗

I guess one of the problems is any attempt to compare with 1930s Germany is dismissed as a Basil Faulty joke. But I’m sure the Pro-UK side need a way of raising the very obvious parallels, particularly with younger voters

91989 ▶▶ Two-Six, replying to Basics, 1, #862 of 1104 🔗

A hard border for Scotland. FFS.

91893 Albie, replying to Albie, 28, #863 of 1104 🔗

That survey saying 9 in 10 people would accept local lockdowns is propaganda on a North Korean level. I can’t recall ever seeing a poll in which 90% of the public agreed on a trivial matter, let alone a serious one that affects their lives in all manner of hugely detrimental ways.

91895 ▶▶ Lockdown_Lunacy, replying to Albie, 22, #864 of 1104 🔗

The question was probably something like, ‘in the event of a surge in COVID 19 cases, would you prefer a national lockdown or more localised lockdowns?’

91902 ▶▶▶ Albie, replying to Lockdown_Lunacy, 3, #865 of 1104 🔗

Good point. The art of spin.

91914 ▶▶ Howie59, replying to Albie, 5, #866 of 1104 🔗

The survey referred to throughout that healine piece was a poll of just over 2000 people or 0.0033% of the population. Will anyone read so far to realise that? No. As you say, more propaganda.

91934 ▶▶ mjr, replying to Albie, 2, #867 of 1104 🔗

too right… only 8 out of 10 cats preferred whiskas

91899 ConstantBees, replying to ConstantBees, 12, #868 of 1104 🔗

Interesting development this morning on the Daily Mail. Virtually all the virus stories have been moved off the main news page. The Coronavirus heading for the stories in that category has been moved to the right edge of the menu. Looks like they’re trying to de-emphasise the subject while we are still subject to life-changing restrictions.

91900 ▶▶ karenovirus, replying to ConstantBees, 7, #869 of 1104 🔗

Perhaps they are getting the message from their increasingly sceptical commenters.

91903 ▶▶▶ Basics, replying to karenovirus, 11, #870 of 1104 🔗

It’s a serious moment I believe. Moving the focus onto other news with the lockdown measures in place. The forcing of adopting their new normal. A Nudge Unit policy.

91901 ▶▶ nowhereman, replying to ConstantBees, 8, #871 of 1104 🔗

Is it just me, or has the bbc online news been similarly de-emphasizing the subject over the last few days? Less fear-porn on display?

91908 ▶▶▶ karenovirus, replying to nowhereman, #872 of 1104 🔗

I don’t go there but they are still fill on it on R2 & 4.

91911 ▶▶ Steve Martindale, replying to ConstantBees, 9, #873 of 1104 🔗

It is interesting that it is the Mail that has recently published sceptical articles by Lord Sumption, Mr Peter Hitchens and Janet Street Porter. Have they sensed something in the public mood that others have missed?
In his excellent article
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-8631433/Former-Supreme-Court-Judge-LORD-SUMPTION-says-Britons-know-rudderless-ship-one.html
Lord Sumption states that the virus is now endemic, is he correct? I believe he is. But clearly Joan of Arc in NZ and Genghis Khan in Australia do not agree and think they can drive this virus from their shores. Whilst they are taking this approach it is difficult for our Government to say it is now endemic (like chickenpox) in the UK. Just wonder if Dominic Cummings is steering the media and softening the public having realised that project covid fear has gone too far?

92037 ▶▶▶ Steve, replying to Steve Martindale, 2, #874 of 1104 🔗

The daily mail has always had the occasional sceptical article. Presumably to keep up the illusion that they’re impartial.

92052 ▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Steve, #875 of 1104 🔗

Also, I think the old dear hasn’t exactly been keeping up. He seems to believe that the 2nd wave is here. He repeats that infections are rising everywhere so he considers that Neil Ferguson was right. He doesn’t seem to have noticed what Ivor Cummins called the ‘Casedemic’ (increased PCR testing). France, he thinks, is really normal what with all those masks so that’s OK then.

And, of course, it’s down to Government incompetence. The people can see through it, apparently. Really?

91966 ▶▶ Basics, replying to ConstantBees, 2, #876 of 1104 🔗

A further point of shifting tgeir msm narratives away from corona is to set up the dramtic second act. Much more drama to flooding the zone with general news then to return the covid foe with bells on just before vaccine time.

91907 Barney McGrew, replying to Barney McGrew, 6, #877 of 1104 🔗

This is a bit terrifying:
https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/08/17/has-the-post-covid-future-already-been-decided/

So ‘The Great Reset’ isn’t just a myth. It’s the World Economic Forum’s openly-stated aim.

Its web site includes this item on the future of science education:
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/08/science-education-reset-stem-technology/

After the virus,

Education can no longer be about transferring explicit knowledge across generations. According to the OECD 2030 Future of Education and Skills Project: “We need to replace old education standards with an educational framework that combines knowledge with the 21st century skills of creativity, critical thinking, communication and collaboration.” This won’t be achieved by simply moving classes from the chalkboard to a Zoom call, but radically transforming the way we teach and learn science and technology skills, from one-way content dissemination and memorization to personalized, self-directed learning. In a rapidly changing world, where we cannot predict what technologies will be ascendant in the future, we have to teach children to teach themselves. Students need not just knowledge, but also skills, attitudes and values to thrive in and shape their own future for a more empowered global citizenship. This has never been more evident than in the current pandemic.

I think this idea of “technologies ascendant in the future” created by self-taught children is a fantasy. Or a nightmare.

The words “the 21st century skills of creativity, critical thinking” are being spouted by people who have their own, special understanding of what they mean. They are dazzled by Greta Thunberg and kids who create their own phone apps, and imagine that utopia can be created by simply wishing it into existence.

It seems that ‘STEM’ education will follow other fields in abandoning those old, stale, ‘white’, objective, historical reference points and start at ‘Year Zero’.

91909 ▶▶ karenovirus, replying to Barney McGrew, 1, #878 of 1104 🔗

May mean the Special People have the new knowledge, the rest of us become drudges, so not much really, just formalised.

91913 ▶▶ Ovis, replying to Barney McGrew, 5, #879 of 1104 🔗

It’s a very old bullshit: Dewey’s progressive education as the cleansing of Western original sin through the destruction of tradition – somehow achieved with no decrease in quality because, hey, we still ritually genuflect before ‘knowledge’. It takes real ignorance to see this as new, or as the means to any kind of progress beyond itself.

91925 ▶▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to Ovis, 4, #880 of 1104 🔗

It’s just various ideas from Communism with a dash of Corporatism thrown in. And destined for the same end.

91924 ▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to Barney McGrew, 6, #881 of 1104 🔗

Heard all this kind of stuff before. UBI, Year Zero, Reset, New Way, etc etc.

The biggest problem these people face is people themselves. If there is no incentive to work, or improve, or take risks, then none of these things happen and your civilisation stagnates. This is precisely the reason Soviet Communism failed.

They can try, and try and try. But robbing your productive sector to pay the unproductive always ends in tears. In an age of instant communication, it will end a lot sooner than it took the Soviet Union.

91926 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Nick Rose, 5, #882 of 1104 🔗

I would have said the same before the coronapanic, but I must admit that my faith in the stability of human reality has been rather shaken by the ease with which people have been bullied along.

You can argue that they will still ultimately fail, but I don’t think you can take it for granted. They have a lot more tools now than ever before.

Each generation has to fight for liberty against the collectivists and the political zealots, and success is not necessarily guaranteed.

92035 ▶▶▶▶ KBuchanan, replying to Mark, 3, #883 of 1104 🔗

Same here, people I know who I’d always considered pretty clued up wearing masks without complaint. Horrible anonymous face coverings that lets face it are damned nasty to wear for more than about 5 minutes. I’d say they wear them commonly in China and how does that work out for the Chinese and virus transmissions? no answer. How long are you OK with using them – for 3 months, 6 months, a year the rest of your life? I despair at how bovine the population has become. Also WHERE is public ANGER at the NHS to all intents and purposes withdrawing health care!

92055 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to KBuchanan, 2, #884 of 1104 🔗

Peter Hitchens has admitted to having been quite shocked at the way every single check and balance in our society seems to have failed or been swept away so easily.

91928 ▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Nick Rose, 3, #885 of 1104 🔗

On the basis of what you have seen of the Western population’s response to Covid, you have faith that it will resist being pushed into a dystopian future..?

92018 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Nick Rose, #886 of 1104 🔗

There’s another point to bear in mind, and that is the reduced size of the world, in communications terms, which means it is much harder for alternatives to a dominant force to survive long enough to see it overthrown. We are closer than ever before to a de facto world government and elite monoculture. Only the rise of China really holds out hope for real resistance to the currently globally dominant elite, and they compete on the even less liberal side. So as the US sphere drifts towards ever more collectivist, internationalist, corporatist dogmatism, the only viable alternative seems to be Chinese authoritarianism. Russian and islamist resistance seem unlikely either to last long or to provide any inspiring alternatives on the liberty side.

It might be that a looming cold (hopefully) war between rising China and the currently dominant US can make space for some liberty-minded alternatives to flourish in the gaps.

But there is the real possibility now of the ultimate nightmare of a unified global society with no “outside”, nowhere to hide and nowhere to run, which simply was not technologically feasible even a few decades ago.

92255 ▶▶▶▶ karenovirus, replying to Mark, #887 of 1104 🔗

When Nixon welcomed CCP into the wider world I was reminded of when US Commander Perry did that for Japan, did not work out well = 100 years later @ Pearl Harbor.
I posted somewhere a decade ago that Islamic Fundamentalists were just a smokescreen for a resurgent China but thought I would be long gone before they became Top Country.

92078 ▶▶ Girl down Under, replying to Barney McGrew, 1, #888 of 1104 🔗

Barney, you might find this interesting.

https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/5011-the-great-reset-davos-the-plot-to-cancel-trump

Hope the link works. I am not Catholic but Michael J Matt has some interesting points.

91912 Tim Bidie, replying to Tim Bidie, 8, #889 of 1104 🔗

The quest for explanations of this hopeless lunacy goes on:

Twitter has become journalists’ easiest and most reliable source of cor-blimey (or OMG, to American readers) stories, because all of human life is there, and it’s searchable .’

‘Active political tweeters in America were whiter, more left wing, more likely to be college educated, and less likely to say that “political correctness was a problem” than primary voters as a whole.’

‘How does this new establishment use its power? In Britain, political tweeters assail BBC producers and reporters with charges of bias. They make accusations that politicians cannot ignore, hobbling candidates by promoting sticky controversies on subjects that are low priorities among mainstream voters. They have more of an effect on the left than the right because of Twitter’s demographics. (Members of right-wing parties tend to be older.)’

‘The genuine fury from the left at people three inches closer to the political center reflects a turbocharged tribalism. Freud called this “the narcissism of small differences”

‘“super-wokeness is mostly an elite phenomenon.”

‘…. there is no point in demanding that journalists get out of the “Westminster bubble” or the “East Coast bubble” if they’re still stuck in the Twitter bubble. It is a place where a fox murder is the biggest news of the day, patriotism is racism, and Jess Phillips is a Tory. In other words, it’s nowhere close to reality.’

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2020/01/jeremy-corbyn-labour-twitter-primary/604690/

This may be one of the real problems that we face, policy making by consultation with nutty, unrepresentative, social media focus groups.

“Some people say that you can search for the relative ratio of mentions of Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democrats…and that you can predict on that basis,” explains Hanretty. “But I think academic literature on that is really problematic, because I’m guessing that, for every paper that’s been published showing how you can predict elections with social media data, there have been ten papers that have been started and never got anywhere just because they showed crazy results.”

https://qz.com/1767195/uk-election-result-shows-twitter-doesnt-speak-for-most-voters/

Once the realisation dawns that government policy is being driven by the maunderings of harmful chemical ingesting, brain damaged, paranoid narcissists, the whole mad lethal debacle becomes readily comprehensible.

91917 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Tim Bidie, 5, #890 of 1104 🔗

“Some people say that you can search for the relative ratio of mentions of Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democrats…and that you can predict on that basis…”

I think this is an example of the fantasy ‘STEM’ world that I mention in my comment on the WEF ‘Great Reset’ above. Deluded people have the idea that ‘data’ holds the meaning of life, whereas anyone with true critical thinking skills can see that the mentions of the three parties on social media might be the result of spurious factors that really have no bearing on anything. What ‘works’ today will simply fail tomorrow. You don’t need to do any experiments to demonstrate it, or cite ‘research’; it can be worked out rationally.

For all I know, self-driving cars are being developed on the same, fantasy ‘big data’ ‘data mining’, basis.

There is a parallel with Covid 19 in that no one enquires too deeply about what, exactly, a “case” is, or what it represents. They are mesmerised by the ‘data’ and not the messy, spurious factors that have influenced it.

91921 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Tim Bidie, 5, #891 of 1104 🔗

And you have to combine that twitter/media bias with the heavy political bias in academe. This is most problematic in the social sciences obviously, where the scope for just making stuff up is much greater, but bias is also common in other sciences especially where modelling is involved and especially when it comes to interpreting results and explaining their consequences in the wider world.

This is probably at its worst outside the social sciences in the most politicised fields, namely those related to the climate panic and to race, where our scientific consensus is pretty thoroughly warped by desperate need to comply with politically correct orthodoxy, and where careers, budges and reputations are most clearly at risk. It’s safest to assume that any scientific conclusions that comply with orthodoxy in these areas are inherently suspect.

Liberals outnumber conservatives among tenured professors by a rate of around 12:1 (though this rises to upwards of 50:1 in some humanities departments)”

How Our Psychology Polarizes Us (And How To Fix It)

Pretty much everything most ordinary people think they “know” about the climate and about race is either flat out false or suspect.

91962 ▶▶ karenovirus, replying to Tim Bidie, 4, #892 of 1104 🔗

One of the reasons I come to LS is that nobody engages in skeptomania, outbidding each other ” I’m more skeptic than you or yours is the wrong sort of skepticism.”
Unlike the liberal left who, as the saying goes, always eat themselves.

Biker once had a pop at me for being insufficiently rude about my socialist MP, but it was OT and actually made me feel a bit special.

91968 ▶▶▶ Mr Dee, replying to karenovirus, 4, #893 of 1104 🔗

It’s all rather polite here between us, isn’t it! This site is my one and only foray into the world of online ‘social media’. I’m assuming it’s not like this elsewhere…?

91991 ▶▶▶▶ karenovirus, replying to Mr Dee, 1, #894 of 1104 🔗

Like yourself I don’t go elsewhere except for a few individuals’ blogs that I’ve followed for years, one of which poinointed me here.

91922 Ned of the Hills, replying to Ned of the Hills, 3, #895 of 1104 🔗

When there isn’t an home grown Covid story to worry about it seems the BBC will go abroad to find one if the last couple of days are anything to go by.

Yesterday (or was it the day before) Ireland’s highest number of Covid cases since mid May was trumpeted. Today it was some milestone figures in India.

I’m waiting a day or two to make some comment, until some more figures come in, about the number of Covid cases in Ireland.

91935 ▶▶ Mark II, replying to Ned of the Hills, 1, #896 of 1104 🔗

Coincides with introducing mandatory masks again 😂 starting to be quite the pattern with that…

91936 ▶▶ karenovirus, replying to Ned of the Hills, 2, #897 of 1104 🔗

BBC R4 news 8am today.
Lead Covid story, India Covid deaths now 50,000 3rd highest in the world !

Failed to mention India’s population of
1.3 Billion.

91938 ▶▶ NickR, replying to Ned of the Hills, 3, #898 of 1104 🔗

Deaths in India have never reached 1 death/million per day. Naturally it’s condensed in a few cities & may spread about wider yet but it doesn’t look like it’s going to take off, it’s been trickling along at the same rate for months.

92183 ▶▶ Edward, replying to Ned of the Hills, 1, #899 of 1104 🔗

There was some nonsense on the BBC red button news about people going a bit wild in a pub in Ireland, somebody standing on the bar and pouring beer into people’s mouths. Normally it wouldn’t even make the local papers.

91927 Anthony, replying to Anthony, 4, #900 of 1104 🔗

Does anyone understand how medical exemptions work for mask wearing?

My wife tried to get a GP letter to avoid her wearing a mask at work (as a hairdresser) but he refused. I’ve done a bit of research and it seems like you can self certify yourself as exempt but its not clear if this applies to staff who have been instructed to wear masks or just the public. Anyone been in a similar situation?

91930 ▶▶ matt, replying to Anthony, 7, #901 of 1104 🔗

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own

The exemptions are broad and the only process is self certification. Various lanyards and badges are available (including one available to print off on the link above) but the guidance specifically stated that you don’t have to wear one and that you shouldn’t be challenged. GPs have been specifically told not to waste their time writing exemption letters as they aren’t needed.

It’s a bit more complicated for your wife, as this is about her employer. If the GP won’t provide anything, then the only option will be to discuss it with her boss, show them the government exemption rules and explain that she is exempt (it may help to explain which of the exemptions apply, but she definitely doesn’t have to, or to discuss any medical conditions.

Ultimately it’s up to the employer. There may be various legal options if they don’t agree, but my guess is your wife would prefer not to go down that route.

91931 ▶▶ p02099003, replying to Anthony, 4, #902 of 1104 🔗

If a risk assessment identifies that PPE is required then an employer is obliged to provide it under Health and Safety at Work legislation.
An employee also has a duty of care to ensure the health and safety of themselves, other employees and visitors to the site.
If PPE is provided then it should (not must) be worn, an employee is not required to wear PPE, but if they don’t and something happens then they cannot hold their employers responsible (on your own head be it).
The big question is “Are masks classed as PPE?

92085 ▶▶▶ Lucky, replying to p02099003, #903 of 1104 🔗

Copied and pasted from gov.uk own website on face coverings

Face coverings are not classified as PPE (personal protective equipment) which is used in a limited number of settings to protect wearers against hazards and risks, such as surgical masks or respirators used in medical and industrial settings.

91932 ▶▶ karenovirus, replying to Anthony, -1, #904 of 1104 🔗

.

91939 ▶▶ Anthony, replying to Anthony, 2, #905 of 1104 🔗

Thanks, to be honest I was amazed you could self certify, this means literally anybody can get away with not wearing a mask – how on earth can police fine anyone?

It’s unclear when it’s required for an employee. I see what your saying about PPE but this mask business is claimed to protect others not yourself so not sure if being happy to accept the risk to yourself would be judged as reasonable.

It’s still very unclear if the self exemption just applies to public or employees. I’ve searched and can’t find anything that explicitly says so.

91942 ▶▶▶ matt, replying to Anthony, 6, #906 of 1104 🔗

“ how on earth can police fine anyone?”
Generally speaking, they can’t. Only 33 fines have been issued and the assumption is that those 33 people must have been deliberately bolshy with the officer involved.

As for the employee question – the law doesn’t require any employee to wear a mask; it’s the employer who is making that decision.

91946 ▶▶▶▶ Anthony, replying to matt, 1, #907 of 1104 🔗

Thanks Matt,

The latest government regulations for hairdressers states:

‘A Type II face mask should be worn with the visor. Type II face masks are not PPE but will provide a physical barrier to minimise contamination of the mouth and nose when used correctly.’

Do you think this leaves it up to the employer (as it says ‘should’) or is this a non-optional regulation that’s is enforceable by law?

To be honest I very much doubt her employer will know the answer to the above question either.

91956 ▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Anthony, 1, #908 of 1104 🔗

I’m not really familiar with the ‘rules’ and in particular I’m not sure whether this piece comes under regulations or “guidance”. An awful lot of the ‘rules’ we’re supposed to live our lives by are the latter. If it’s guidance, then it truly is up to the employer. If it’s legislation, the I see no reason why the 2010 Equality Act wouldn’t apply, meaning that if your wife has a reason she can’t wear the equipment, then she should not be forced to.

91961 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Sam Vimes, replying to matt, 1, #909 of 1104 🔗

Anthony’s quote is taken from the Guidance document.

91967 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Sam Vimes, 2, #910 of 1104 🔗

There you go then. Employer’s decision. Though Anthony’s wife will probably need to explain that it is in fact only guidance. The distinction is deliberately blurred in people’s minds I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve had to correct someone who has claimed something is the law.

91979 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Sam Vimes, replying to matt, 3, #911 of 1104 🔗

You beat me to it while I was typing, Matt. They bring out ‘guidance’, that goes in the paper, and into the ears of the great unwashed, then a few days later, they bring out the law (if any), which only covers a fraction of the guidance stuff. They’re not daft.

91973 ▶▶▶▶▶ Sam Vimes, replying to Anthony, 3, #912 of 1104 🔗

Anthony, it is guidance only. Your biggest problem would likely be local authorities being heavy handed. There is a twitter story about a hairdresser called VickyInTheUK, who stood up to her local Hitlers. She is carrying on maskless and free. Of course, if your boss is being difficult, that brings its own problems.

91950 ▶▶▶▶ karenovirus, replying to matt, #913 of 1104 🔗

Posted earlier about a BTP officer who has issued just one fine to a bloke who spoke to him like a complete knob.

91959 ▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to karenovirus, 9, #914 of 1104 🔗

Yep. As far as I can see, in the vanishingly unlikely circumstance where you’re approach by a police officer, there are two conversations you can have:
“Excuse me sir, you should be wearing a mask.”
“I can’t, Officer, I’m exempt.”
“Ah, that’s fine, sir. Carry on. Have a lovely day.”

Or

“Excuse me sir, you should be wearing a mask.”
“Screw you, you fascist pig. You’ll never take me alive!”
“Here’s a fixed penalty notice, sir”

91964 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Sam Vimes, replying to matt, 3, #915 of 1104 🔗

That’s it, Matt. “I’m exempt” is all you need. They are not empowered to quiz you about detail. If you refuse, you are breaking the law and you are a bloody fool. Which is errr, what you just said!

91982 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to matt, 2, #916 of 1104 🔗

🤣 🤣 🤣

You’ve summed it up nicely there Matt 👍🏻

92076 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to matt, 1, #917 of 1104 🔗

Attitude is indeed the driver for how a surprisingly large proportion of interactions with police turn out. When I was young I used to drink and drive and speed quite a lot (not particularly dangerously, but often illegally, or borderline illegal) and my philosophy when pulled over was if I wanted to avoid a confrontation and a ticket, “be obsequious”, otherwise, enjoy the confrontation and accept the lumps that come with it. Worked quite a lot of the time, in both directions.

The only ticket I ever got for not wearing a seatbelt was when I basically chose to adopt your latter model and got the inevitable (and expected) result.

Experience shows that this is a large part of the explanation of supposedly racist policing interactions as well, though clearly not all by any means.

92173 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Edward, replying to matt, 1, #918 of 1104 🔗

I had a good laugh at that!

91948 ▶▶▶ karenovirus, replying to Anthony, 2, #919 of 1104 🔗

Just had a quick look at the lawnotfiction (?) pdf, says your wife is covered by Disability Act 2020 in respect of not wearing protective clothing.

Perhaps someone cleverer tha I can point Anthony in their direction.

91957 ▶▶▶▶ Anthony, replying to karenovirus, #920 of 1104 🔗

Thanks, I’ll check this out.

91971 ▶▶▶ Margaret, replying to Anthony, 5, #922 of 1104 🔗

“I was amazed you could self certify.”

You and most of the rest of the population, Anthony. That’s the big problem. I’ve tried to pass this message on to everyone I can.

”This means literally anybody can get away with not wearing a mask”

Exactly! What we’ve all been saying on here for ages.

”How on earth can police fine anyone?”

With the greatest of difficulty.

92065 ▶▶▶▶ Suitejb, replying to Margaret, 1, #923 of 1104 🔗

Yep. I was telling a friend exactly this yesterday and that he could print an exemption note from the Gov.UK website.

92247 ▶▶▶▶▶ karenovirus, replying to Suitejb, #924 of 1104 🔗

I wouldn’t use theirs, you’ll be put on the list of Subversives, first to go to the Camps.

(Spooks, series 5. Harry gets detained with a Temporary Detention Order
“There is no such thing as a TDO”
Sadly for Harry there was and off he got took).

92090 ▶▶▶▶ Lucky, replying to Margaret, 1, #925 of 1104 🔗

Yes. Nobody I have spoken to has actually looked at the gov.uk website, or questioned what is guidance and what is law.

92243 ▶▶▶▶ karenovirus, replying to Margaret, #926 of 1104 🔗

Unless you talk to them ‘like a complete knob’ (see just below).

91976 ▶▶ arfurmo, replying to Anthony, 1, #927 of 1104 🔗

There is this http://www.laworfiction.com/2020/07/time-to-blow-the-whistle-on-shops/#comments but it may not apply to hairdressers where there is specific guidance .
Note also the disclaimer “ Warning: Law and circumstances can change very quickly. Please note the date of publication of any blog post and check for any updates on the issues addressed. In any event, we do not condone or encourage breaching the law and neither the above nor any information posted on this website constitutes legal advice. It must not be relied upon as such and specialist legal advice should be taken in relation to specific circumstances. Please read our disclaimer .”

91992 ▶▶▶ Anthony, replying to arfurmo, 1, #928 of 1104 🔗

Thanks all, looks like it’s gonna be up to her employer who, in all fairness, seems to be quite reasonable about the whole situation. I know a lot of the staff are struggling and many have been removing either the mask or shield half way through the day without causing any problems with management or clients.

91929 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 9, #929 of 1104 🔗
91969 ▶▶ Anthony, replying to swedenborg, #930 of 1104 🔗

Quality

91933 thedarkhorse, replying to thedarkhorse, 22, #931 of 1104 🔗

One of our puffins over at Going Postal commented this morning about the folk returning from France being permitted to go to the supermarket before being forced into 14day isolation. Plus, not being allowed to walk their pets. His smart observation was “so the masks don’t work then?”.
Bang… straight, and to the point. Why quarantine people when you can just shove them into a mask and let them get on with their daily lives?

91937 ▶▶ anon, replying to thedarkhorse, 1, #932 of 1104 🔗

was this in the uk?

92124 ▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to anon, 1, #933 of 1104 🔗

It’s in the Telegraph.

91943 ▶▶ karenovirus, replying to thedarkhorse, 3, #934 of 1104 🔗

I think quarantined people can go shopping, they can certainly go home by public transport. If their arrival is worrisome why aren’t they tested on arrival or even have their temperatures taken ?

91952 ▶▶▶ Fed up, replying to karenovirus, 13, #935 of 1104 🔗

Agreed if this was the serious public health issue they are portraying it as, the returners would be tested and isolated. Not allowed to make their way home on public transport stopping off at Sainsbury’s on the way.

why can’t people see that NONE of the rules make sense? Face masks made out of whatever cloth you can find in your arts and crafts basket, a virus that discriminates between eating in and take always, countries that are safe one day and mysteriously dangerous a day later. An illness that you need to be tested for to know if you have it.

and if they can see it, why aren’t they raging?

91953 ▶▶▶▶ Anthony, replying to Fed up, 3, #936 of 1104 🔗

Also, if it was that bad, they wouldn’t give people a few days to rush home in time to avoid quarantine (with plenty of mixing in the airport’s and stations thrown in for good measure).

92235 ▶▶▶▶ karenovirus, replying to Fed up, #937 of 1104 🔗

I’m convinced the wakamole on foreign countries is to make the idea of booking a holiday abroad untenable.
Thus forcing the greatest number of us out of the sky without having to use the law or taxes
This was not part of ‘the plan’, it is the Greta crowd persuing their agenda on the back of johnsons reckless lockdown.

It’s quite clever really since will be making the decision to avoid air travel ourselves.

92126 ▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to karenovirus, 2, #938 of 1104 🔗

Because they are making it up as they go along. Why people cannot see the stupidity of these rules is a mystery.

91945 Awkward Git, replying to Awkward Git, 9, #939 of 1104 🔗

From 2007 but relevant today:

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/22/health/22whoop.html

Article is called “Faith in Quick Test Leads to Epidemic That Wasn’t” which sound familiar.
Conclusion once culture had been grown and no trace of the whooping cough found although there were PCR tests that showed positive:

“Dr. Cathy A. Petti, an infectious disease specialist at the University of Utah, said the story had one clear lesson.
“The big message is that every lab is vulnerable to having false positives,” Dr. Petti said. “No single test result is absolute and that is even more important with a test result based on P.C.R.”

91954 ▶▶ DespairSquid, replying to Awkward Git, 9, #940 of 1104 🔗

And the only reason that panic was brought to an end was the comparison of the PCR tests against the gold standard test for whooping cough.

And for C-19/Covid, the “gold standard” test is… the PCR test! You couldn’t make it up – although I suspect that they have. All the way through.

91974 ▶▶▶ Steve Martindale, replying to DespairSquid, 6, #941 of 1104 🔗

Just heard Tony Blair on radio4 (what a way to start your week!), his institute has just published a paper calling for testing to be ramped up to massive proportions so that everyone can be tested all the time and carry a health card. Why do people seem to have such a massive faith in ‘the test’?
It is a shame because PCR testing used well and used properly with skill is extremely useful and has undoubtedly saved lives in some areas. In my view we should scale back testing, focus it on hospitals, care homes and vulnerable people and do those tests really well in conjunction with a clinical assessment.
Doing mass PCR tests is like trying to produce a Rolls Royce on the mini production line!

91978 ▶▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Steve Martindale, 11, #942 of 1104 🔗

In my view we should stop testing altogether!

91984 ▶▶▶▶▶ Anthony, replying to Winston Smith, 5, #943 of 1104 🔗

As someone who works in a diagnostic field that regularly employs PCR testing, I’m concerned that the necessary reagents / materials required will become so scarce that we have to limit the use of PCR in situations where it’s actually beneficial.

92008 ▶▶▶▶ Victoria, replying to Steve Martindale, 9, #944 of 1104 🔗

Want a Lockdown

Get a Test

92118 ▶▶▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Victoria, 1, #945 of 1104 🔗

It just encourages the power mad numpties.

91988 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Awkward Git, 3, #946 of 1104 🔗

Can’t quite read the article – need to create an account, but I love the fact that the internet contains stuff from long before the Covid censorship started. This article would probably not be written in the same way today, if at all, because it contains actual, unbiased information that might be considered “dangerous”.

91990 ▶▶▶ DespairSquid, replying to Barney McGrew, #947 of 1104 🔗

There’s a great write up of it here:

https://blog.plan99.net/pseudo-epidemics-7603b2da839

92004 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Awkward Git, 3, #949 of 1104 🔗

That story sits very well next to the 2009/10 H1N1 “casedemic” that Ivor Cummins highlighted in his recent brief piece. I’m pretty sure you’ve seen it already but I’ll put the link here again just in case any readers haven’t, because it’s a really good, imo important and concise (less than 10 mins) summary of what’s going on at the moment with quarantines, local lockdowns and general “second wave” bollocks.

Crucial Viewing – to truly understand our current Viral Issue #Casedemic

91947 Ned of the Hills, replying to Ned of the Hills, 5, #950 of 1104 🔗

Was there some recent research that concluded mask wearing in shops reduced the spread of Covid infection by 5%?

On that basis I’ve concluded it takes more than 400 years of mask wearing to save a single life.

I’ll present my back of an envelope calculations if I anyone can send me a link to the “5%” research conclusion I think I remember reading about.

91951 ▶▶ Anthony, replying to Ned of the Hills, 2, #951 of 1104 🔗

Wouldn’t that also mean that 400 people wearing them for 1 year would save 1 life. Can’t even see them being as effective as that.

92019 ▶▶▶ Ned of the Hills, replying to Anthony, 1, #952 of 1104 🔗

400 people wearing a mask when shopping for a year I put down as only 20,800 hours -( i.e. one hour a week x 400) – so that’s less than three years of mask wearing.

91963 ▶▶ matt, replying to Ned of the Hills, 5, #953 of 1104 🔗

There’s a Norwegian study that concluded that, at current prevalence, 200,000 people would need to wear a mask to stop a single transmission (and even then, the study said something like “we have no idea how effective masks are, if at all, but let’s say they’re 40% effective for the sake of argument”.

Given an IFR of ~0.25%, by my calculations that means that 800,000,000 people would need to wear a mask to save a single life.

91980 ▶▶▶ Anthony, replying to matt, 5, #954 of 1104 🔗

Also, based on the amount of mask fiddling I’ve seen, if the virus was actually rife I’m sure that mask wearing wearing would also cause some cases of transmission through contact.

91986 ▶▶▶▶ Sam Vimes, replying to Anthony, 4, #955 of 1104 🔗

Yep, people are fiddling with a snot soaked rag, then touching things that you are going to buy. Or even worse, they are bringing out your food… But it’s ok, cos it’s a government mandate – the same one that says wear a face covering in banks, building socs and post offices.

92003 ▶▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to Anthony, 3, #956 of 1104 🔗

“Despite millions of people being told to use face masks, little guidance has been given on how to dispose of or recycle them safely. And as countries begin to lift lockdown restrictions, billions of masks will be needed each month globally. Without better disposal practices, an environmental disaster is looming.

The majority of masks are manufactured from long-lasting plastic materials, and if discarded can persist in the environment for decades to hundreds of years. This means they can have a number of impacts on the environment and people.

Initially, discarded masks may risk spreading coronavirus to waste collectors, litter pickers or members of the public who first come across the litter. We know that in certain conditions, the virus can survive on a plastic surgical mask for seven days.”

https://theconversation.com/coronavirus-face-masks-an-environmental-disaster-that-might-last-generations-144328

92104 ▶▶▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Lms23, #957 of 1104 🔗

Discarded masks will become the new plastic bags threat to our planet.

91998 ▶▶▶ nottingham69, replying to matt, 1, #958 of 1104 🔗

Not according to VP Biden, mandatory muzzles will save 40k lives in 3 months. Who am I to dispute such expert wisdom?

92105 ▶▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to nottingham69, #959 of 1104 🔗

The moon is made of green cheese, says Biden the hair sniffer.

92057 ▶▶▶ RickH, replying to matt, 2, #960 of 1104 🔗

… and the Norwegians acted on the logic and binned the idea of general mask usage and testing.

92103 ▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to matt, #961 of 1104 🔗

😂 😂 😂 😂 😂

91994 ▶▶ Ozzie, replying to Ned of the Hills, 1, #962 of 1104 🔗

There is a recent (short) video that quoted figures of how few lives could be optimistically saved by face covering wearing:

“Carl Heneghan – On Masks” – recent commentary on mask research.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNI2ocgosgA

92001 ▶▶ guy153, replying to Ned of the Hills, 4, #963 of 1104 🔗

If they reduce transmission by 5% then R0 goes from (say) 3 to 2.85. This drops HIT from 0.67 to 0.649 which is about a million infections or a couple of thousand lives saved (using an IFR of 0.2%).

The problem is we have to wear the masks forever or they just die when we take them off.

And the other small problem is we already reached that higher HIT anyway, so those 2000 people are already dead.

I’m assuming masks reduce all transmission by 5%. I doubt the real number is anything like that high.

92006 ▶▶ Mark II, replying to Ned of the Hills, 5, #964 of 1104 🔗

It’s hard to quantify just how little they are likely to help, given no one on here is likely a super statistician, but I tried explaining how stupid it is with the following sequence

  • There is a 0.05% chance _at most_ (likely a lot less in most areas in UK) that I have the virus.
  • The chances of me transmitting it whilst pre-symptomatic depend upon my happening to go close enough to someone in that short time frame and breath/cough/sneeze all over them or something they touch (I use pre-symptomatic as if i’m ill, im not going shops anyway) I don’t know the % chance of this, but they would be tiny.
  • In the extremely unlikely event of the above 2 things coming to pass, there is then just a 0.1-0.4% chance (ifr range) that said person would die.
  • The chances of onward transmission then causing a death etc are so small its not even worth entertaining this straw man argument they use. We can not live our lives by chaos theory.

I can’t actually comprehend just how small the chances of the above sequence of events happening are, but given that there is several studies to show that cloth face coverings are at best a few % effective, and at worst counter productive, and that surgical masks are at best 50% effective _if worn properly_ and at worst counter productive, one can only conclude that not-sick people wearing masks has a 0% or negative impact on spread.

Compared to the absolute guaranteed costs of waste, pollution, social upheaval, skin issues, mental issues etc it’s crazy that any government of a low prevalence country would even consider mandating them, let alone actually doing it, and that seemingly intelligent people would go along with it.

92024 ▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Mark II, 9, #965 of 1104 🔗

Sorry folks but the above discussion is pointless and time-wasting. There is no virus to transmit any more. Masks are about control not safety.

92040 ▶▶▶▶ Sam Vimes, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 3, #966 of 1104 🔗

Yep. How do you get all the ‘trouble makers’ to wear a badge marking themselves out? You can’t.
But if you get all the sheep to wear a badge, the rest will stand out. Easy.

92045 ▶▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Sam Vimes, 4, #967 of 1104 🔗

The sheep are already wearing a badge. It’s called a mask. They will not want to listen to numbers, however persuasive. I don’t wear a mask and I’m still ambivalent about exemption badges. I have gone without but currently wear one to advertise how easy it is to become exempt.

There are no easy answers here but I think calculations on how effective masks are/aren’t are pointless because they are predicated on everyone having a virus to transmit which they haven’t.

Masks make you stupid and fearful – how do we get that across?

92042 ▶▶▶▶ Mark II, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 2, #968 of 1104 🔗

Precisely, just trying to find a way to get that across to people in way that is comprehensive with numbers. My stating the numbers shows exactly what you said, it’s just how to say it succinctly enough that people hear it. Laying it out like I had doesnt work as they’ve switched off the moment they hear the first ‘0.05%’.

It is inarguable that they are not about safety, but to get people to stick about long enough to hear why is the hard part.

92033 ▶▶▶ Ned of the Hills, replying to Mark II, 7, #969 of 1104 🔗

After what you’ve written I don’t think my back of an envelope calculations are much needed. Mask wearing simply promotes anxiety, especially when made mandatory, the negative effects of which out weigh any possible benefits.

92115 ▶▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Ned of the Hills, 2, #970 of 1104 🔗

When I see a masked person they are telling me they are anti social and consider me a biohazard.

92060 ▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Mark II, 3, #971 of 1104 🔗

There is a 0.05% chance _at most_ (likely a lot less in most areas in UK) that I have the virus.”

Actually that’s about the odds of having an RNA strand that might relate to the virus.

You then shrink the odds after considering :

  • whether it does relate to the particular virus
  • whether you are infected
  • whether you are ill
  • your chance of actually passing it on

This whole thing is such an incredible nonsense.

I mean – I’m one of those who has enough conditions to warrant genuine caution about getting this bloody virus. But I’m not daft enough to go around strangling my life on the basis of microscopic odds like this.

91960 NickR, replying to NickR, 14, #972 of 1104 🔗

In the way that Sweden was an interesting test case so will New Zealand. They’ve been shut down, locked up, masked, annointed by a living Saint. They’ve had time to prepare,know about treatment, all the advantages, so will the virus still penetrate their defences? It will be interesting to watch. If it does it will be an even bigger argument against full lockdowns than Sweden, or will they just say the people weren’t rigorous enough?

91970 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to NickR, 8, #973 of 1104 🔗

They’ll say the people flouted the lockdown rules and its all their own fault. They’ll have to stay in lockdown forever…..

91995 ▶▶▶ Mark II, replying to Lms23, 4, #974 of 1104 🔗

Exactly, there is literally no end game to their ‘zero covid’ approach, I can only assume Jacinda knows this.

It means never ending testing & quarantining of _all_ arrivals forever, alongside the mandatory vaccination of their entire population – again, as with all government, unless they admit at some point it’s not such an issue anymore and can just re-open.

92068 ▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Mark II, 3, #975 of 1104 🔗

They have set the bar for lockdowns extremely low. If they stick to that, their country will impoverish itself dramatically.

92007 ▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to NickR, 5, #976 of 1104 🔗

Isn’t New Zealand the place where a lot of megarich bought bug out ranches nd properties?

Sure it was/is.

https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2018-rich-new-zealand-doomsday-preppers/

Don’t want it sullied and stunk up with normal poor people do we?

Just saying.

91965 Laura Gallagher, replying to Laura Gallagher, 5, #977 of 1104 🔗

100% Organic, Biodegradable and Vegan Facemasks – picture is hilarious https://www.facebook.com/lukepaulscottofficial/posts/10100874897527872

91987 ▶▶ wendy, replying to Laura Gallagher, 6, #978 of 1104 🔗

I like it!!!!! What a great idea to spoof face coverings. My thoughts went done another line of finding the dirtiest, most horrible looking things to turn up to places in!!!!

92039 ▶▶▶ A. Contrarian, replying to wendy, 2, #979 of 1104 🔗

Blood stained would be good…

92072 ▶▶▶▶ Laura Gallagher, replying to A. Contrarian, 1, #980 of 1104 🔗

Scroll down here for some hilarious ideas https://masks4all.co/facts/ scroll to the bottom for the ? about whether they will make you look weak. So funny and I can only assume they think their readers are morons.

92069 ▶▶▶ Laura Gallagher, replying to wendy, #981 of 1104 🔗

Scroll down here for some hilarious ideas https://masks4all.co/facts/ scroll to the bottom for the ? about whether they will make you look weak. So funny and I can only assume they think their readers are morons.

92036 ▶▶ Mr Dee, replying to Laura Gallagher, 2, #982 of 1104 🔗

Can we have edible facemasks next please. Yum!

91972 Awkward Git, 7, #983 of 1104 🔗

I found this interesting:

On the CDC website it says:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#Comorbidities

Comorbidities Table 3 shows the types of health conditions and contributing causes mentioned in conjunction with deaths involving coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). For 6% of the deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death. The number of deaths with each condition or cause is shown for all deaths and by age groups. For data on comorbidities,

Open the data and you get (It’s not tabbed very well here, the X, U, R etc numbers are the WHO death classifications):

Number of Conditions Age GroupConditions Contributing to Deaths where COVID-19 was listed on the death certificate1ICD–10 codesAll ages0–24 years25–34 years35–44 years45–54 years55–64 years65–74 years75–84 years

Intentional and unintentional injury, poisoning and other adverse events S00–T98, V01–X59, X60–X84, X85–Y09, Y10–Y36, Y40–Y89, U01–U034,40129991542665128241,0511,464

All other conditions and causes (residual) A00–A39, A42–B99, D00–E07, E15–E64, E70–E90, F00, F02, F04–G26, G31–H95, K00–K93, L00–M99, N00–N16, N20–N99, O00–O99, P00–P96, Q00–Q99, R00–R08, R09.0, R09.1, R09.3, R09.8, R10–R9968,8382146031,3193,6579,13315,89217,992

Hopefully the screenshot of they page is more helpful but basically over 4000 + over 68 000 people listed as dying with/from covid-19 actually died from poisoning, car accidents, work accidents, suicides and so on.

91983 Laura Gallagher, replying to Laura Gallagher, 15, #984 of 1104 🔗

Something else that made me laugh (sharing in case anyone else needs to) – on sale on Amazon T-Shirts with the message “this shirt identifies as a mask” https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08FKBKD3Q

92092 ▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Laura Gallagher, 1, #985 of 1104 🔗

I like that!

91993 Lms23, replying to Lms23, 5, #986 of 1104 🔗

Someone posted a Facebook link here a week or so ago, where a woman was reading out an email she’d received from a care home worker, in which she detailed how residents were being treated. Their normal medication had been withdrawn. There were no GP or district nurse visits at all. No antibiotics were being prescribed for any infections at all. No residents were transferred to hospital if they fell ill, for any illness. Any resident who fell ill, from any cause, was put into end-of-life care, with food and liquids withheld, and they were put onto morphine for “pain relief” and to keep them sedated. Morphine suppresses breathing, and inevitably hastened their deaths.
The Facebook link doesn’t appear to be available any more, but if someone else has it, please post it.

Now, I have no way of knowing if this was true or not. The woman in the video was extremely upset at what she was reading, and was in tears, but that doesn’t prove anything.

And then I saw this report on Sky News Australia last night:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O4N7kVXwO7g

Melbourne hospitals turning away aged care residents sick with COVID-19 is ‘appalling’

Elderly care home residents are being turned away from hospitals, and they’re also being prescribed morphine, without the permission of next of kin, or their own GP:

“Published on 16 Aug 2020
Aged care specialist Dr Robert Hoffman said the Royal Melbourne Hospital’s dealings with aged care residents is appalling and is not the way a first world country should be reacting to the issue of coronavirus-infected elderly in aged care.

Sky News host Sharri Markson, in her article in The Australian, reported elderly people infected with COVID-19 were being refused treatment and turned away by Melbourne hospitals.

Ms Markson said Glenlyn Aged Care in Glenroy told families of residents the residents would not be accepted by the Royal Melbourne Hospital, were to remain at the facility in Glenroy, and be placed on end of life care or be sedated if they were wandering.

Mr Hoffman told Sky News a team of nurses from Royal Melbourne Hospital came to a nursing home on Thursday August 6 and planned to transfer some residents to hospital.

However, “that afternoon, a doctor from Royal Melbourne Hospital came out, cancelled all transfers, wrote people up who were unwell for palliative care meds, and basically heavy sedation for the rest,” he said.

“With no consultation with me as their doctor, or any other doctors, and no consultation with the families.” ”

Oh, and the Victorian Prime Minister is looking at how he can get the emergency measures extended indefinitely…

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hpnRwkSoav4
https://mobile.twitter.com/OzraeliAvi/status/1295235857234817025

92005 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Lms23, 7, #987 of 1104 🔗

Shocking this is genocide

92028 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Lms23, 2, #988 of 1104 🔗

Doctor’s name ?

91996 Strange Days, 5, #989 of 1104 🔗

The Conversation has on the whole been in the pro lockdown pro mask camp, however this article is worth a read. It attempts to square the circle of being pro mask with being green (apologies to Kermit) The cognative dissonance is real

https://theconversation.com/coronavirus-face-masks-an-environmental-disaster-that-might-last-generations-144328

91997 Lms23, replying to Lms23, 19, #990 of 1104 🔗

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/08/16/report-calls-digital-coronavirus-passports-help-open-economy/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr#comment

“Report calls for ‘digital coronavirus passports’ to help open up the economy and beat travel curbs
Holders could scan a QR code to enter restaurants and sports venues, allowing businesses to reduce social distancing requirements”

“Digital ‘coronavirus-status passports’ could be used to scrap blanket lockdown measures and free up vast swathes of the economy, a new report, backed by former Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt, has urged.

Under the proposals, people would be tested as often as every two weeks for coronavirus and keep their results in a app on their phone.

Passport holders would be able to scan an individual QR code to get into restaurants and sports venues, meaning businesses would be able to reduce social distancing requirements.

Those who test negative would also avoid the need for quarantining when crossing borders.

The report from the Tony Blair Institute for Global Change advocates for the implementation of ‘digital’ passports as part of wider calls for mass testing.

In a foreword to the report, Mr Hunt writes: “We know there is a delicate balance to be struck between health and economic concerns.

“We also know that the two are inextricably linked: an economy in freefall causes immense physical and mental harm and the uncertainty of lockdowns will lead to deep and lasting economic damage.

“Having the confidence to return to work and for consumers to interact with businesses is now a must, but it can only be achieved by learning to live alongside the virus. Short of a safe vaccine, mass testing is the only way to realise this.”

The paper, which is also backed by former Prime Minister Tony Blair and ex-leader of the Conservative Party William Hague, argues for “Covid-19 status passports” to help open up the economy further.”

There we go. Right on schedule. Calls for a “digital passport”for CV19, a virus which has proven to be as deadly as the flu. And from none other than our favourite ex-Prime Minister, Tony Blair, who’s been allowed out of his coffin, along with a couple of fake Tories.
I don’t know about “we’re all in it together.” They’re definitely all in it together.
Rule of thumb: whatever Tony Blair recommends: do the opposite.

No, of course the vaccine won’t be made mandatory, but if you want to go about your life as New Normal, you’ll need to prove yourself immune from the virus and have a digital passport….

92000 ▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Lms23, 5, #991 of 1104 🔗

Exactly a predicted months ago (there was a good video by a track and trace whistleblower about where it was leading) along with covipass, the EU travel vaccination scheme a and ID2020.

India has been doing the QR code outside shops etc for a while.

92002 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Lms23, 8, #992 of 1104 🔗

Ahh but they forget to tell us that the Virus is basically gone, no more scary than the flu virus

92022 ▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Victoria, 3, #993 of 1104 🔗

CENSORED!!! You dangerous person – that’s fucked-it – sorry – I mean ‘fake news!

92009 ▶▶ Gerry Mandarin, replying to Lms23, 11, #994 of 1104 🔗

Will eventually result in a counter culture of people that won’t accept this.

92031 ▶▶▶ Mr Dee, replying to Gerry Mandarin, 5, #995 of 1104 🔗

I’m already part of that counter-culture.

92087 ▶▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Mr Dee, #996 of 1104 🔗

Meetoo!

92116 ▶▶▶▶▶ Achilles, replying to Bella Donna, 2, #997 of 1104 🔗

Yes the strange thing is so am I but I haven’t changed at all, the culture has. Six months a go I was a “relatively” orthodox person and now I’m a revolutionary but it’s still the same old me.

92012 ▶▶ anon, replying to Lms23, 2, #998 of 1104 🔗

does this mean boris must quarantine every time he crosses a border henceforth?

I seem to recall them telling us boris has had covid.

and I also recall them pushing the mantra, “it can come back, at any time”

am I following their ‘logic’ here?

92016 ▶▶▶ RickH, replying to anon, 4, #999 of 1104 🔗

Radishes and garlic can ‘come back’ at any time – but I don’t put my life on hold and get vaccinated because of it.

92017 ▶▶ Sue, replying to Lms23, 4, #1000 of 1104 🔗

blair was on R4 this morning advocating this test, test, test stuff. i wouldn’t believe one word that comes out of his mouth.
If tested every 2 weeks then would need say 32 million a week – I think the logistics of sourcing the raw materials for the tests (not sure what they need but is it available in these quantities?), manufacturing, distributing etc would prove unworkable.
I’m sure (hope) some techie will soon develop a way round this in any case.

92020 ▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Sue, 9, #1001 of 1104 🔗

Blair always had that ‘Mad Hatter’ look round the eyes.

Then he saw WMD everywhere.

Then he invaded Iraq (that went well, didn’t it?)

… and now he’s proposing a solution to the VMD ‘problem”

Let’s join up the dots ….

92089 ▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Sue, #1002 of 1104 🔗

I’d like to inject him with something.

92023 ▶▶ Darryl, replying to Lms23, 5, #1003 of 1104 🔗

Sadly I expect at least 90% of the population will meekly accept this monitoring system (once these things are introduced and normalised they will never disappear). Many of us suspected this was heading towards ID2020 from day one as the globalist technology companies seem far more powerful than the majority of governments.

The Tony Blair Institute for Global Change would love to see the world population under the control of elite technocrats as Tony Blair probably fancies his chances of a senior UN position.

92063 ▶▶▶ HelenaHancart, replying to Darryl, 1, #1004 of 1104 🔗

Bliar has been pushing for this for years. Control and power just…in…his grasp!

92030 ▶▶ Mr Dee, replying to Lms23, 2, #1005 of 1104 🔗

I was just listening to a Last American Vagabond show about this. Check out the biometric ID company CLEAR:

https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-health-screening-digital-id-48f5ee5b-05c4-4b5e-8fda-4d2f59b946b0.html

This article was from back in May.

https://www.clearme.com/

92044 ▶▶▶ karenovirus, replying to Mr Dee, 2, #1006 of 1104 🔗

Toby posted a link in his roundup middle of last week about the very nasty place this is taking us to.

“Health Passports, gateway to a new tyranny.”

Posting from an Android, can’t do links.

92048 ▶▶▶▶ Mr Dee, replying to karenovirus, 3, #1007 of 1104 🔗

And all that stuff about microchipping people – I mean that’s Conspiracy theory bollox isn’t it? I mean – who in their right minds would want to get microchipped:?

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-05-21/now-im-a-cyborg-and-it-feels-very-cool-why-this-father-and-daughter-decided-to-get-microchip-implants

Me! Me! Me! I want one. I mean they are sooo coooolll!!!!!!!

92214 ▶▶▶▶▶ karenovirus, replying to Mr Dee, #1008 of 1104 🔗

5 years ago , I think in Sweden, they undertook an exercise in which people agreed to be microchipped, their reward ?
Easier access to a nightclub ffs.

92032 ▶▶ A. Contrarian, replying to Lms23, 2, #1009 of 1104 🔗

Awful idea obviously, but pointless anyway since the incubation period is less than 2 weeks and people are infectious before symptoms begin.

92034 ▶▶▶ A. Contrarian, replying to A. Contrarian, 1, #1010 of 1104 🔗

Also, presumably they would have to be home tests, there is no way there would be official capacity to test everyone in the country every fortnight. Lots of testing of paw paws and goats to ensure a negative result, if people have got any sense.

92053 ▶▶▶▶ RickH, replying to A. Contrarian, 1, #1011 of 1104 🔗

Stupid beyond even the current heightened levels of stupidity.

92210 ▶▶▶▶ Bella, replying to A. Contrarian, #1012 of 1104 🔗

Paw paws and goats come out positive

92051 ▶▶ RickH, replying to Lms23, 3, #1013 of 1104 🔗

It would be an illogical idea even if there was an accurate test, and the disease was generally serious.

There isn’t one – so its totally bonkers

92086 ▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Lms23, 2, #1014 of 1104 🔗

I’ve said this before the only thing I want to read about Bliar is his obituary.

92102 ▶▶ Lockdown Truth, replying to Lms23, 1, #1015 of 1104 🔗

How about a digital passport to show that you are not a war criminal? Scan a QR code at the entrance to a restaurant to show that you have never started an illegal war bringing death and destruction to millions.

92113 ▶▶ Lockdown Truth, replying to Lms23, 1, #1016 of 1104 🔗

Joking aside… Assuming this proposal takes off and everyone agrees to take part. That is, I will get tested regularly and follow the guidelines and I expect people who are tested positive to pay a penalty for that.

So what if the “testing” starts showing everyone is positive? Everyone is banned from public places, everyone has to self-isolate?

Apart from the obvious NWO dystopian message, I would not leave myself open to be gamed by these people is this way.

It’s positive/negative testing now but it will be vax or no vax next.

92215 ▶▶▶ watashi, replying to Lockdown Truth, 1, #1017 of 1104 🔗

I m sorry, the whole thing seems completely nuts to me. spending money on millions-billions? of tests that tell you nothing. testing for something that doesn t even exist. I really would like to wake up from this nightmare now please.

92155 ▶▶ Steve Martindale, replying to Lms23, 2, #1018 of 1104 🔗

Sounds like good business for the firms doing all the testing. At least until the vaccine comes along, at which point you will get a stamp saying you have been jabbed.
I have visited West Africa a couple of times and we had to get jabbed for Yellow Fever etc and present a yellow card proving vaccination in order to be allowed entry.
But somehow this seems like a step further than that?

Also, what about poor old fogeys like me who are not smart enough to have a smart phone – I have only just mastered the land line and cannot operate touch screens! Maybe there will be self exemption like with masks?

92213 ▶▶▶ watashi, replying to Steve Martindale, #1019 of 1104 🔗

not just old fogeys who don`t have a smart phone. some of us middle aged ones choose not to.

92192 ▶▶ karenovirus, replying to Lms23, #1021 of 1104 🔗

Spoke to some who was moved from Track’n’Trace to Isolation Ensurance ( not a typo, their word spelling unknown).
He spends his time phoning recent returnees to Ensure that they are correctly quarantined
Asked what if they lie?

“You can tell by the tone of their voice and put that in the report.:

92010 Seqchap, replying to Seqchap, 7, #1022 of 1104 🔗

First time posting and haven’t read through all the messages on this or the other posts. But I was thinking about given the success of the dating forum, whether it would be possible (maybe I’ve missed it and it’s already there!) to have a forum for those looking for friendships with likeminded individuals (don’t think my husband would be happy with my turning up on the LS dating forum!). I know that there are the KBF forums, but maybe something more around social meetings for individuals and small groups to meet each other, not necessarily to organise anything but just to be able to ‘breathe and reboot’ with people who share like minded views.

92064 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Seqchap, 4, #1023 of 1104 🔗

Welcome. Maybe say where you are roughly and see if there are any takers? I am not aware there’s any DM capability though, which makes contact a bit awkward. Others may know more.

92179 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Seqchap, #1024 of 1104 🔗

Best done via a forum. Easier to pm etc.

92011 Victoria, replying to Victoria, 11, #1025 of 1104 🔗

Vaccine Transparency Manifesto
https://www.anhinternational.org/news/call-to-action-help-create-the-new-vaccine-narrative/

The 10-point VACCINE TRANSPARENCY Manifest o

  1. Full disclosure of raw data from studies and trials to allow independent analysis
  2. Full transparency in relation to safety and efficacy trials
  3. Full transparency over the vaccine platform(s) and technology used for commercial vaccines
  4. Conduct of comprehensive studies evaluating the independent risks from adjuvants (additives)
  5. Full disclosure of vaccine composition in commercial formulations
  6. Full transparency of all adverse event data in all studies and post-marketing surveillance
  7. Clarification of eligibility and criteria for no-fault vaccine injury payments or compensation
  8. Clarification of nature and extent of government indemnity of manufacturers in the event of vaccine injury
  9. Public dissemination of extent of naturally-acquired (herd) immunity prior to vaccine roll-out and individual consent
  10. Involvement of elected representatives in due democratic process should mandatory vaccination be contemplated by authorities

https://www.anhinternational.org/resources/documents/uk-vaccine-transparency-manifesto/

92015 ▶▶ RickH, replying to Victoria, 6, #1026 of 1104 🔗

Seems a pretty good framework.

Comprehensive RCTs over a sufficient timescale are essential – and that rules out any rushed vaccine.

Exposure to widespread peer review is also a sine qua non – and if we’re indemifying development, and paying up front that presupposes binning all ‘commercial confidentialiity’ nonsense.

That lot should be a reasonable stamp of the degree of good faith in this project.

… and I’ll believe it when I see it.

92061 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Victoria, 6, #1027 of 1104 🔗

Excellent stuff.

I’ve already written to my MP, who refused to rule out voting for mandatory vaccinations. I think that tells you everything you need to know about her and about her party and our government.

Have also written to my doctor, who refused to answer other than saying they would do what the NHS advised them to do. Again that tells you where we are.

Have also written to the ethics body of the GMC, awaiting a response.

92025 Victoria, replying to Victoria, 4, #1028 of 1104 🔗

Bill Gates and Co. Desperate to Destroy Mercola.com
You’ve seen the brainwashing and social media surveillance – there has never been such a coordinated assortment of lies and censorship in the history of America as there is today. And now I’m in the firing line of their lies, fabrication and reckless disregard for truth in an attempt to put an end to me and this website. This is my rebuttal.

https://youtu.be/47W5cR8BB-E

.
Lies Exposed: CSPI’s Organized Attack Against Mercola

  • For decades, our mission has been to help you take control of your health. The Center for Science in the Public Interest (CSPI) has launched a comprehensive campaign to put an end to Mercola.com
  • CSPI president Dr. Peter Lurie is a former FDA associate commissioner and avid supporter of Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Disease
  • Lurie falsely asserts that I make COVID-19 claims for nutritional supplements sold in my online store. A complete review was made of all products in the Mercola Market and none of the CSPI accusations exists
  • CSPI is bankrolled by billionaires and their corporate entities, such as the Rockefeller Foundation, the Rockefeller Family Fund and Bloomberg Philanthropies. It has also partnered with Bill Gates’ agrichemical PR group, the Cornell Alliance for Science. Greg Jaffe, who heads up CSPI’s Biotechnology Project, is also the associate director of legal affairs at Alliance for Science
  • CSPI also takes significant funds from the American Heart Association, which received heavy financial backing by the makers of Crisco, the top-selling trans fat product ever sold. The AHA also takes money from pharmaceutical companies manufacturing statin drugs
  • In the 1980s, CSPI conducted a highly successful campaign promoting trans fat, resulting in an epidemic of heart disease. It later white-washed its history, omitting its promotion of trans fat from the organization’s historical timeline

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2020/08/17/cspi-organized-attack-against-mercola.aspx

92081 ▶▶ Jane in France, replying to Victoria, 1, #1029 of 1104 🔗

Victoria, have you thought of contacting the Weston Price Foundation? They have good lawyers.

92046 RickH, replying to RickH, 12, #1030 of 1104 🔗

Just an early result from an update of an analysis about all-cause mortality that I’ve been working on.

The basis is the Winter-Spring ‘infection’ season for the past 27 years, and it originally stemmed from a wariness about the use of the term ‘excess deaths’, related to relatively short time-span averages, having noted that the last few years have been a period of notably *lower* mortality, even allowing for the odd ‘stronger’ year.

One of the obvious feature of the data was the clear balancing of mortality over *two* years, ending at the beginning of summer this year. It struck me that a major part of the mortality levels amongst the vulnerable in the April spike may well have been attributable to normal-end-of-life mortality catching up with a population that had actually had an extended year of life (judged against the average) because of previous low infection rates.

‘Smoothing the curve’ is a normal practice in separating signal from noise in a time series of data – and a five year moving average clearly shows the pattern of what looks like a sine wave in the quarter-century data, with an up-turning trend at the moment from a previous low.

But, I thought it worthwhile to look, not at the moving average, but instead at the result of taking the original observation, and averaging deaths in two-year blocks, rather than year-by-year.

There is in this – surprisingly – a greater degree of regularity than is obtained from a moving average shorter than five years, suggesting that the ‘balancing factor’ element may be a real phenomenon in a time series of mortality (it is pretty logical, after all), although it doesn’t explain longer-term variation.

The relevance (after that preamble) is that the so-called ‘Covid’ spike has not led to unusual mortality over the last two years taken as a block. The average for 2018 (winter) to 2010 (spring is actually below the mean for the 24-month period over the last quarter of a century.

Be very wary of ‘excess death’ figures.

92054 ▶▶ Lockdown Truth, replying to RickH, 2, #1031 of 1104 🔗

Yes. What would an “excess death” spike graph look like in December-February during a bad flu season I wonder? Similar to our April-May one this year i.e. normal?

Can anyone find or produce one for 2017/18 UK flu season?

92088 ▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Lockdown Truth, 4, #1032 of 1104 🔗

The ‘Florence Nightingale’ graph published on the CEBM website is quite good :

https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-19-florence-nightingales-daigrams-for-deaths/

What was anomalous about this year was the sudden upsurge in April that you can see quite clearly. This, in its timing and severity does contrast with previous years – and is what induced panic.

However, the point is that it was short-lived, and didn’t crate mortality of plague-like proportions, despite the concentration of deaths in time and by age-group.

This is now obvious, and we are now looking at a non-epidemic event.

92127 ▶▶▶▶ RickH, replying to RickH, 1, #1033 of 1104 🔗

As an addendum – I have looked at the bar chart I’ve kept of the last five years’ weekly mortality. This is by calendar year rather than season.

The difference between 2018 and 2020 is that in 2018, the peaks were lower, but more sustained. Weeks 1-18 showed mortality generally above other years in the five-years captured, with about three peaks. This is different from the classic sharp epidemic rise and fall of this year. So the difference is indeed in the concentration of deaths against time.

92058 ▶▶ Gerry Mandarin, replying to RickH, 6, #1034 of 1104 🔗

Some (all?) excess deaths are probably real. They are all the non-covid deaths because they shut the hospitals down, and stopped treating people in care homes as well as they should. I think over the next five to ten years there will be an uptick in mortality, principally in cancer, but I’m sure in some over conditions too.

The lower mortality rates for the last ten years or so, are probably attributable to the success in postponing death from diabetes and other metabolic syndrome illnesses. These will have to balance back out at some point though too, as no-one lives forever.

very complicated and the fraudulent death certificates will make it a lot harder to work it out.

Well done on your analysis.

92075 ▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Gerry Mandarin, 3, #1035 of 1104 🔗

One point is that the term ‘excess deaths’ is a pretty meaningless term. As I’ve said elsewhere , it’s based on any old average that you pick, and any old regression that you choose to use.

Bluntly – mortality rates vary./ Big deal! You can judge relative severity according to the levels over a reasonable timescale (certainly more than 5 years) – but in the end, the baseline for ‘excess’ is a moveable feast, and you result is just the error in your model’s prediction.

CEBM has done some good work on the variability introduced by different regression models.

92070 ▶▶ sunchap, replying to RickH, 9, #1036 of 1104 🔗

Fantastic analysis. There is in fact no excess mortality.

In light of this data why are some governments now attempting “elimination”, such as here in NZ and in Victoria, Australia? Research has also now shown that the IFR is the same as the flu and 60% of the population is immune!

In addition; this virus has shown that it is mutating, there are millions of cases world wide; a cure is a long way off and shutting a country permanently will recreate the middle ages?

The science is clearly being ignored by the media and all “science advisers” should be ceremonially stripped of their qualifications in front of their mothers…

92079 ▶▶▶ RickH, replying to sunchap, 6, #1037 of 1104 🔗

Your last sentence is undeniably true. What is worse is that many ‘professionals’ seem immune to the realities uncovered by fairly basic science. The compliance of the personnel in the health services to this fictional narrative is absolutely bonkers – with GPs locking up their surgeries against a phantom.

If an ordinary Joe such as myself – OK with a bit of a background, but not difficult to acquire – can sit down with a normal amount of literacy, numeracy and a bog-standard spreadsheet and work out what’s going on, the question arises as to what the f. all those with specialist PhDs are doing coming up with total bollocks (apologies to the credible ones like Heneghan and Gupta who are earning their corn).

Is it any wonder that sane people are coming up with conspiracy explanations?

92083 ▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to RickH, 4, #1038 of 1104 🔗

I think most of them know it’s BS but are either too afraid to speak out or are pursuing their own agendas

92094 ▶▶▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Julian, 2, #1039 of 1104 🔗

True of some, I think, Julian, and I think medical staff have indeed been threatened into compliance. But I reckon there are other mechanisms going on.

Obviously, there’s the influence of financing, but it’s the other psychologies that are interesting – the deliberately induced group-think; the fear of calling out the king’s nudity; the desire for a quiet life under the blanket etc. – and, of course, the sheer weight of propagandised ‘evidence’ that makes for doubting your own judgment.

Then there’s basic scientific illiteracy – even amongst scientists. By that I mean that the opening chapters of the book about looking critically at data and erecting and testing hypotheses have been forgotten in the rush to play with computational toys (like models!).

92140 ▶▶▶ Will, replying to sunchap, #1040 of 1104 🔗

The woman with the teeth thinks Canute is someone who should be emulated…

92132 ▶▶ Will, replying to RickH, 3, #1041 of 1104 🔗

Basically a large number of extremely vulnerable people crept over the line from last winter and covid finished them off in the spring. That is what happens in nature…

92059 Awkward Git, replying to Awkward Git, #1042 of 1104 🔗

What’s going on here? Posted a couple of day ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywtHs6vc9Ew

92062 ▶▶ TJN, replying to Awkward Git, 2, #1043 of 1104 🔗

Ready for Johnson, Hancock, Ferguson et al.

92067 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to TJN, 1, #1044 of 1104 🔗

Ah, the dream….

92071 ▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to TJN, 1, #1045 of 1104 🔗

I wish and a few others.

92074 ▶▶ Mr Dee, replying to Awkward Git, #1046 of 1104 🔗

“You’ve just earned six months in the iso-cube, perp – aggravated coughing on a Judge.”

92077 ▶▶ Lockdown Truth, replying to Awkward Git, #1047 of 1104 🔗

Not very good CGI. Jacinda and Dan probably got excited for a minute.

92158 ▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Awkward Git, #1048 of 1104 🔗

Friend sent me this video in reply:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrarmdexeV0

92066 Mark, replying to Mark, 7, #1049 of 1104 🔗

Anyone got an email address for Lord Sumption?

Someone needs to send him a link to Ivor Cummins’ excellent brief piece on the “casedemic” .

His weekend piece in the DM , posted below by Steve Martindale, is excellent as usual, but he does seem to believe, as MiriamW pointed out below, that “infections are rising”.

92073 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Mark, 4, #1050 of 1104 🔗

I’ve never been able to find his contact details

He is retired and doesn’t appear to be on social media

Maybe try writing to him c/o The Spectator? He’s done some stuff for them. Toby might know how to get in touch with him, or Hitchens, who always says he can be reached at the MoS, presumably by post.

92084 ▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Julian, 2, #1051 of 1104 🔗

Hitchens probably a good idea.

92080 Tyneside Tigress, 5, #1052 of 1104 🔗

I hope they feel proud of themselves for what they have done to this little 5 year-old boy who has just lost his mum to breast cancer:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8634687/Britons-likely-die-cancer-15-years-ago-Covid-19.html

92082 Stuart Barker, replying to Stuart Barker, 4, #1053 of 1104 🔗

This is a sick joke:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/5-million-for-social-prescribing-to-tackle-the-impact-of-covid-19

Does the Government not realise that most of that sort of stuff is barely functioning in communities at the moment. Singing, specifically, is not allowed, and other community groups are struggling to restart with unmeetable Government guidelines and organisers and members so terrified by Government propaganda that they don’t feel safe anyway.

92093 ▶▶ wendy, replying to Stuart Barker, 5, #1054 of 1104 🔗

Gosh that makes me so angry. No one is allowed to meet up. Classes can’t run, walking groups can’t meet. You can’t see people’s faces as masks are mandatory everywhere. Art for Dementia is one of the things. No one is allowed to visit their family in care homes. Those care homes that have felt able to allow this have allowed 30 minute distanced meeting with Perspex screens and PPE. I am so livid.

92097 ▶▶▶ Sam Vimes, replying to wendy, 2, #1055 of 1104 🔗

Ministry of Self Contradiction again.

92101 ▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Sam Vimes, 2, #1056 of 1104 🔗

Plus – 5 million. Peanuts, Once again they are laughing at us!

92138 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Stuart Barker, 1, #1057 of 1104 🔗

…. support people to live the best life they can by accessing support in their local communities based on what matters to them.
Faces would be a good start!

…. supporting patients to use digital platforms to stay connected
In a nutshell.

…. GPs and social prescribing link workers have been working incredibly hard to support their patients through this challenging time.
Really?

92171 ▶▶▶ karenovirus, replying to Cheezilla, #1058 of 1104 🔗

Wtf is ‘social prescribing’ anyway?

92167 ▶▶ karenovirus, replying to Stuart Barker, #1059 of 1104 🔗

A mental health professional told me last week that isolation (lockdown) was the worst thing for his patients many of whom have regressed.
Further his new caseload is enormous and he has no chance of denting it.

92091 Locked down and out, replying to Locked down and out, 4, #1060 of 1104 🔗

This is from our local paper:

SOUTHEND HOSPITAL has waved goodbye to its final Covid-19 patient, as the team ready themselves for the potential of a second wave.

The patient was discharged from Southend Hospital on Thursday, which means the hospital is no longer treating any Covid positive patients, although more could arrive in the coming days and weeks given the ever-changing nature of the pandemic.

So not even one CV-19 patient, let alone anyone actually dying from this devastating plague.

But the paper can’t help but mention that hospital staff are braced for a dreaded second wave.

92096 ▶▶ Lockdown Truth, replying to Locked down and out, 3, #1061 of 1104 🔗

Duck!

92098 ▶▶ wendy, replying to Locked down and out, 4, #1062 of 1104 🔗

I am sure there is hardly anyone in any of the hospitals. But they are all on some kind of standby situation for the what will be none existent second wave. We’ve had protests, beaches, pubs open and no rush on the hospitals!!!

92110 ▶▶ Bella, replying to Locked down and out, 2, #1063 of 1104 🔗

They have to write that sort of crap to sell the damn things. They have to have people coming back and they will always come back if there’s a bad news cycle because they’ll be hoping something’s got better. It’s like an addiction.

92111 ▶▶ RickH, replying to Locked down and out, 3, #1064 of 1104 🔗

the ever-changing nature of the pandemic.”

Yes – in the sense of a constant downward curve towards irrelevance.

The narrative becomes more and more detached from reality.

92128 ▶▶▶ Telpin, replying to RickH, 3, #1065 of 1104 🔗

When does a pandemic cease to be so. Or, once it’s been announced, it can never go away, so we’re constantly on guard for government reintroducing restrictions on scant evidence of a second, third, fourth, fifth wave. This is no way for an accountable democratic government to govern. The emergency legislation allowing our hopelessly incompetent ministers to just make up new laws under it ( without any debate or rational justification) must end now as THERE IS NO EMERGENCY other than the chaos this shameless half witted government has itself created. When are people going to wake up to the authoritarianism they’ve sleep walked into. This is why everyone on this site should be supporting the Dolan law suit. Neither our so called opposition Nor the MSM will do anything.

92131 ▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Telpin, 3, #1066 of 1104 🔗

Governments have realised that it’s the almost perfect way to have virtually unlimited and unaccountable power, attention and glory. Why would they renounce that willingly, other than if they were men and women with moral standards

92146 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Julian, 1, #1067 of 1104 🔗

And we knew they weren’t before they were put in power!

92147 ▶▶▶▶▶ Telpin, replying to Julian, 1, #1068 of 1104 🔗

Precisely- which is why judicial review challenging the whole thing seems to me the only way out – that or mass civil disobedience/ protest and just don’t see the latter. I’ve never been so disappointed with my fellow countrymen/ women.

92190 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Telpin, #1069 of 1104 🔗

I agree with both Julian and yourself. I am doubtful, however, of the basis for judicial review on this one – that’s the problem with such enabling legislation coupled with a docile parliament on holiday and a useless establishment-focused opposition.

Basically – the ‘democratic’ system in this country has been found out after years of smug self-satisfaction about Britannia. One odious porker sticks his snout in, and it crumbles.

As to ‘mass’ protests : there’s not much sign at present of the necessary critical mass, I’m afraid.

92136 ▶▶ karenovirus, replying to Locked down and out, 1, #1070 of 1104 🔗

Been none in my large hospital for weeks yet it is still only doing emergency work in other fields.

92143 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Locked down and out, 1, #1071 of 1104 🔗

Braced? ie remaining empty?

92095 Sam Vimes, replying to Sam Vimes, 1, #1072 of 1104 🔗

Vanessa Feltz covering for Jeremy Vine on R2 at 12 today will be asking “If anybody feels they can explain the current rules where they are, please get in touch”. Suspect there will be a fair number of “not strict enough” answers, but you never know.
Anybody want to brave the airwaves?

92099 ▶▶ matt, replying to Sam Vimes, 3, #1073 of 1104 🔗

Unfortunately I have work to do over lunchtime, otherwise there’s nothing I’d rather do than spend my time being talked over and talked down to on national radio.

92120 ▶▶▶ Sam Vimes, replying to matt, 1, #1074 of 1104 🔗

That’s her speciality, for sure. It really should be called Vanessa Talks Over…

92122 ▶▶▶▶ kf99, replying to Sam Vimes, 1, #1075 of 1104 🔗

She sided with a caller who shouted at someone in a petrol station for not wearing a mask on the show the other day…

92145 ▶▶▶▶▶ Sam Vimes, replying to kf99, #1076 of 1104 🔗

Let’s see if a cool, concise sceptic gets on. I won’t suspend respiration while waiting.

92134 ▶▶ karenovirus, replying to Sam Vimes, 1, #1077 of 1104 🔗

I generally do to get an idea of the range of opinion out there though the presenter squews the result in the ‘right” direction

Vanessa does a splendid Cybil Faulty on the phone
“Mmmmm yes, oh I know, isn’t it just awful, yes I knoow.”

92109 Moomin, 3, #1078 of 1104 🔗

Feeling despondent again today. I just can’t see an end to this madness, even with the Italian PM being questioned over decreeing a lockdown against the advice of scientists. It’s nowhere on mainstream media. We’re heading into the Autumn and Winter and I fear that things are going to get worse. We’re still under local lockdown in the North West and it looks like my church body is still giving the government the benefit of the doubt.

92112 Moomin, replying to Moomin, 4, #1079 of 1104 🔗

Me again – why on earth were all those students protesting A level results at the weekend wearing masks outside?

92114 ▶▶ matt, replying to Moomin, 8, #1080 of 1104 🔗

Because they’re stupid and they think masks are cool.

92119 ▶▶▶ Mr Dee, replying to matt, 5, #1081 of 1104 🔗

Because they were told to by the photographer? Or the photographer zoomed in on a group with masks? Or the editor only chose images of kids in masks – ignoring the ones of them without masks?

92123 ▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Mr Dee, 6, #1082 of 1104 🔗

No, I’m sorry to say that my recent experience of under 25s on the street tells me that they’re stupid and they think masks are cool.

92125 ▶▶▶▶ Lockdown Truth, replying to Mr Dee, 1, #1083 of 1104 🔗

If it’s the BBC then the last point is definitely true.

But it is a “requirement” to wear a mask if within 1m…” The government recommends that you keep two metres away from people as a precaution or one metre when you can mitigate the risk by taking other precautions in this list.”

So they think there are doing the “right” thing…

My 16 yo son thinks masks are “badass”. He thinks he’s Deadpool or somebody. FFS!

92129 ▶▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Lockdown Truth, 1, #1084 of 1104 🔗

Suspect it was staged. Round our way, I see the odd teen in a mask but the novelty seems to be wearing off already. Sometimes they look like they are worn in conjunction with hoodies etc to obscure the face and appear threatening, other times it seems like it’s just this week’s thing. Hopefully they will get bored with it.

92117 ▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Moomin, 3, #1085 of 1104 🔗

Why are MPs coming out of the woodwork to hold the Government to account over this when it’s been nothing but silence from them since February?

Seen more MPs on TV the past few days than in the past few months.

92121 ▶▶ Two-Six, replying to Moomin, 1, #1086 of 1104 🔗

Because they are brainwashed dicks.

92133 ▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Two-Six, 1, #1087 of 1104 🔗

No. They are victims of a relentless propaganda campaign. If medical personnel are bludgeoned into pointless mask wearing – what do you expect young people to do? There may be elders around, but there aren’t many ‘betters’.

92139 ▶▶ Snake Oil Pussy, replying to Moomin, #1088 of 1104 🔗

1) For protection against facial recognition software.
2) They think “its the law” and dare not risk getting a DBS record which will blight their chances on the job market for life.

92148 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Moomin, #1089 of 1104 🔗

Maybe after the BLM crap, they think that wearing a muzzle is a sign of protest?

92156 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to Moomin, #1090 of 1104 🔗

Because the efficacy of mask wearing is not on the curriculum.

92130 Margaret, replying to Margaret, 13, #1091 of 1104 🔗

It struck me that when we were young, our parents taught us never to stare at people in wheelchairs or those who were different from us in any way as it was very bad manners. Thankfully for us naked shoppers, it appears that most people have remembered those early lessons and going maskless becomes easier each time.

In Asda this morning, I needed two hands to count the number of maskless shoppers-last week I just needed two fingers!

Step by step, little by little.

92135 ▶▶ RickH, replying to Margaret, 1, #1092 of 1104 🔗

Hopeful.

92231 ▶▶ Steve, replying to Margaret, 2, #1093 of 1104 🔗

I pull up a thin snood when I enter the supermarket, then pull it down under my nose, sometimes it slips right down. No-one bats an eyelid and I see plenty of others with their mask under their nose and a small but increasing number with no mask.

92279 ▶▶ Two-Six, replying to Margaret, #1094 of 1104 🔗

YAY!

92144 thedarkhorse, replying to thedarkhorse, 16, #1095 of 1104 🔗

Just had a grocery delivery from Waitrose….first time we;ve ever used the system, being normally “in-person” users of the supermarket. But not now, with maskomania.
Bloody hell. The driver ought to be laid off….he was absolutely scared stiff of delivering anything. I was asked if I wanted the stuff brought to the door, but I must stay inside…or else he could drop the goods in the front garden area and I would pick up.
Having selected the latter, I stepped forward to collect the first lot, he went into a tizz-wozz about being too close and I needed to step back….give me strength…he then said it was “to keep him and me safe”…I replied “safe from what? the virus has gone!”
He didn’t like that reply, and said “oh well, I’ve got a family to think about” (making me out to be some kind of leper).
Jesus wept (and I do not like taking the Lord’s name in vain)…unless some profound miracle happens in this world, we are battling against utter zombies. Brainwashed beyond belief; beyond redemption.
I really don’t know whether I want another delivery like this….the bloke was utterly deluded. He is the type who will be first in the queue for any vaccine. God help us, these people just don’t have a clue as to the real purpose behind it all; they will lead us into Hell.

92154 ▶▶ Edward, replying to thedarkhorse, 2, #1096 of 1104 🔗

He’s in the wrong job. He should go off to the desert to be a hermit.

92177 ▶▶ RickH, replying to thedarkhorse, 4, #1097 of 1104 🔗

Brainwashed beyond belief”

That is the top and bottom of it.

92180 ▶▶ kh1485, replying to thedarkhorse, 1, #1098 of 1104 🔗

These guys are great:

https://www.milkandmore.co.uk/

92197 ▶▶ Ozzie, replying to thedarkhorse, 1, #1099 of 1104 🔗

We have been using Waitrose for deliveries since early July. The delivery drivers didn’t wear muzzles until after the 24th of July.

92199 ▶▶ Steve, replying to thedarkhorse, 2, #1100 of 1104 🔗

We just had a secondhand piano delivered by a removals outfit. Three men, no masks, no ‘distancing’ or anything whatsoever mentioned about the virus. A refreshing glimpse of normality.

92207 ▶▶▶ Sam Vimes, replying to Steve, 1, #1101 of 1104 🔗

Do you know the piano’s on my foot?

92253 ▶▶▶▶ DavidC, replying to Sam Vimes, #1102 of 1104 🔗

“You ‘um it son…”!

92149 Cheezilla, #1103 of 1104 🔗

New Update just in —–>>>>>

92251 mjr, #1104 of 1104 🔗

MONDAY’S PAGE
Bit late but just in case people havent noticed
https://lockdownsceptics.org/2020/08/17/latest-news-106/#comments
It is here

Users

201 users made 1,089 comments today.

LikesUserPostsReplies
249RickH4, 0, 7, 1, 37, 3, 2, 2, 1, 0, 7, 2, 4, 1, 5, 9, 6, 12, 18, 1, 10, 3, 3, 5, 7, 0, 2, 5, 5, 0, 8, 11, 2, 3, 3, 4, 9, 1, 3, 6, 12, 4, 1, 3, 6, 2, 3, 0, 1, 1, 4
237MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG3, 17, 2, 5, 1, 11, 2, 0, 2, 4, 23, 8, 16, 8, 2, 9, 11, 23, 2, 0, 16, 18, 15, 8, 0, 0, 0, 2, 3, 6, 5, 0, 9, 4, 2
184Mr Dee23, 21, 12, 11, 30, 23, 9, 5, 3, 1, 0, 0, 9, 5, 11, 4, 2, 5, 2, 3, 0, 5
135annie14, 6, 9, 8, 7, 1, 1, 8, 9, 0, 9, 6, 4, 1, 2, 11, 4, 6, 3, 8, 3, 9, 6
135matt9, 2, 0, 1, 8, 0, 0, 1, 1, 0, 4, 0, 7, 4, 3, 0, 5, 3, 9, 3, 10, 0, 3, 3, 12, 7, 6, 1, 2, 9, 5, 3, 8, 6
132Two-Six226, 0, 14, 1, 0, 2, 4, 3, 6, 6, 0, 7, 21, 2, 3, 2, 1, 2, 6, 1, 0, 6, 2, 10, 3, 1, 1, 0
118Mark14, 2, 37, 8, -1, 0, 3, 0, 1, 0, 0, 2, 6, 4, 3, 6, 2, 1, 0, 3, 0, 0, 1, 0, 5, 2, 0, 5, 1, 3, 1, 7, 2
111Country Mumkin13, 33, 7, 0, 33, 3, 1, 1, 1, 1, 0, 12, 5, 1
110Nick Rose10, 26, 0, 8, 0, 8, 14, 10, 24, 0, 4, 6
99stefarm60, 3, 4, 32
96Hubes39, 7, 10, 13, 5, 9, 13
87Eddie2, 0, 4, 3, 27, 7, 0, 18, 2, 5, 13, 6
87Julian3, 2, 5, 2, 6, 2, 4, 0, 0, 1, 0, 32, 5, 3, 4, 6, 4, 4, 3, 1
84swedenborg4, 100, 2, 9, 0, 0, 0, 0, 19, 2, 2, 0, 3, 9, 4, 2, 0, 9, 9
82richard riewer1, -2, 15, 7, 4, 2, 0, 13, 0, 2, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 11, 16, 0, 4, 0, 1, 0, 1, 2, 1, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 4, 0, 4
80Barney McGrew1, 11, 39, 5, 2, 4, 1, 6, 3, 5, 3
80Cheezilla01, 4, 5, 2, 0, 0, 2, 1, 3, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 4, 5, 13, 0, 0, 1, 0, 1, 2, 1, 0, 2, 0, 7, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 6, 1, 8, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1, 0
76Peter Thompson16, 43, 17
74dpj58, 16
74Cristi.Neagu44, 19, 11
73Lisa from Toronto16, 17, 1, 12, 5, 11, 11, 0
72Sophie12361, 0, 7, 4
71Laura Suckling30, 22, 5, 3, 0, 1, 5, 4, 1
68Sam Vimes31, 12, 3, 1, 3, 3, 3, 4, 3, 2, 1, 1, 0, 1
67Awkward Git12, 73, 3, 3, 12, 4, 0, 9, 5, 5, 0, 1, 0, 3
64Kath Andrews4, 10, 6, 4, 9, 3, 16, 10, 1, 1
64karenovirus4, 0, 2, 13, 7, 5, 10, 7, 0, 1, 0, 4, 1, 2, -1, 0, 2, 0, 0, 3, 0, 2, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1
61AN other lockdown sceptic3, 1, 5, 39, 5, 5, 3
57Bella Donna19, 9, 9, 2, 9, 1, 2, 1, 0, 0, 0, 2, 1, 0, 0, 2
48Albie17, 28, 3
48RichardJames16, 6, 16, 5, 1, 3, 1, 0
48Bart Simpson5, 0, 2, 0, 2, 0, 5, 20, 6, 4, 4
47Basileus22, 3, 11, 7, 4
45Basics51, 4, 8, 0, 12, 2, 11, 2
45Tom Blackburn6, 1, 1, 13, 0, 3, 2, 0, 10, 5, 4
43Achilles8, 11, 6, 3, 13, 2
41Victoria1, 0, 1, 9, 7, 8, 11, 4
40Jonathan Smith40
39Margaret3, 18, 5, 13
39NickR15, 7, 3, 14
38thedarkhorse22, 16
37Lms232, 3, 8, 5, 19
36Aremen36, 0, 0
36Tim Bidie4, 53, 0, 16, 8
36Adam2, 1, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 8, 23
35Drummerman13, 6, 0, 4, 12
34DRW34
34TJS12334
34Tenchy07, 4, 1, 1, 3, 7, 11
33Poppy33
32tonyspurs18, 14
32JulieR15, 4, 1, 10, 2
32Lucky13, 2, 1, 0, 0, 8, 1, 1, 0, 5, 0, 0, 0, 1
31AMZ31
31BobT31
31court31
31stewart6, 15, 4, 6
30mrjoeaverage27, 3
29Nessimmersion19, 1, 2, 7
29Thinkaboutit8, 8, 4, 2, 1, 4, 2
28janis pennance11, 10, 7
28Major Panic14, 1, 11, 2
27TomFaz10, 17
27Mark II5, 0, 1, 2, 4, 3, 1, 5, 2, 4
26Liam5, 16, 5
26Paul3, 6, 4, 4, 9
26ConstantBees4, 3, 1, 1, 1, 1, 3, 12
25Simon Dutton14, 8, 3
25OKUK3, 5, 11, 6
25guy15312, 0, 9, 0, 4
25Steve Martindale1, 7, 9, 6, 2
25A. Contrarian7, 1, 0, 12, 2, 2, 1
24tallandbald24
24Lockdown_Lunacy2, 22
24Tyneside Tigress517, 2
24Edward16, 1, 3, 1, 1, 2
23Winston Smith1, 3, 3, 2, 1, 2, 11
23Anthony4, 2, 1, 0, 1, 0, 3, 5, 2, 5
22WhyNow65, 0, 2, 2, 2, 3, 1, 1
21percy openshaw21
21Laura Gallagher5, 1, 0, 15
21MadJock16, 4, 2, 7, 2
20Fiat4, 9, 1, 3, 2, 1, 0, 0, 0
19Chris Hume14, 5
19Rowan4, 2, 10, 2, 1, 0, 0, 0
18ShropshireLass6, 9, 3
17James Leary #KBF17
17Gerry Mandarin11, 6
17Kate9, 8
16DJC16
16Ned of the Hills3, 5, 1, 7
15Polemon215
15Fed up2, 13
15TheBluePill11, 4
15wendy6, 5, 4
15Darryl0, 3, 1, 6, 5
15Moomin33, 2, 3, 4
15T. Prince2, 3, 4, 2, 4
15Bella0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 4, 4, 4, 0, 2
14alw14
14Sarigan14, 0
14Silke David9, 5
14jim j11, 2, 1, 0
14watashi5, 6, 2, 1, 0
13Jack13
13Sue6, 3, 4
12PastImperfect4, 8
12AngloWelshDragon2, 3, 2, 5
12Rick087651, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 2, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 3, 2
11Saved To Death8, 3
11BJJ4, 1, 6
11davews7, 1, 3
11Quernus7, 1, 0, 3, 0
10Dave #KBF7, 3
10sunchap1, 9
10p020990033, 3, 4
9DespairSquid9, 0
9Jane in France8, 1
9Michel4, 5
9Youth_Unheard8, 1
9DavidC1, 8, 0
9Nigel Sherratt1, 8, 0
8nowhereman8
8Strange Days53
8Bruno5, 1, 2, 0
8James Bertram6, 0, 1, 1
8Lockdown Truth1, 1, 2, 0, 3, 1
7Seqchap7
7Sir Sceptic7
7tonys7
7djc2, 5
7Allan Gay2, 4, 1
7DressageRider5, 1, 1
7Nobody20202, 5, 0
6commononsense6
6FatBastardMcKenzie6
6Alan P2, 4
6bluefreddy2, 4
6Old Mum2, 4
6arfurmo3, 2, 1
5assoc5
5Drawde9275
5Howie595
5Keen Cook5
5Ovis5
5smileymiley5
5Jonathan Palmer4, 1
5KBuchanan2, 3
5TJN3, 2
5John Stone3, 2, 0
5JohnB1, 2, 2
5Jonathan M2, 1, 2
5nfw30, 0, 2
5Steeve2, 1, 1, 1
4Biker4
4Ethelred the Unready4
4Locked down and out4
4Paul B4
4Stuart Barker4
4hotrod2, 2
4Steve2, 2
4Telpin3, 1
4Alci2, 2, 0
4mjr01, 1, 2
3helen3
3Jane3
3Jenny3
3JohnB3
3Marie R3
3Recusant3
3anon1, 2
3Will0, 3
3hat man2, 0, 1
2Cruella2
2Lili2
2Steve2
2Commander Jameson2, 0
2kh14851, 1
2Ozzie1, 1
2Che Strazio0, 0, 2
2Hoppity0, 2, 0
2kf990, 1, 1
2PWL-3, 0, 5
1Coronamoana1
1DomW1
1Girl down Under1
1HelenaHancart1
1Judith Day1
1nottingham691
1Suitejb1
1Alison91, 0
1BeBopRockSteady1, 0
0Bugle0
0ChrisW0
0Jonathan Castro0
0Kelly deacons0
0Lucan Grey0
0sarnskeptic0
0Snake Oil Pussy0
0John Mills0, 00
-1gina0, -1, 0

Top