Last updated2020-10-04T10:59:24



165780 Doodle, replying to Doodle, 1, #1 of 2011 🔗

Oh no. I don’t believe it.

165781 ▶▶ Doodle, replying to Doodle, 7, #2 of 2011 🔗

Number 4.

165784 ▶▶▶ Doodle, replying to Doodle, 158, #3 of 2011 🔗

The husband of a friend suffered a stroke at home. An ambulance was called and the husband was put into it. He was lucid at the time. His wife was refused permission to travel to the hospital with him. She was also refused permission to visit him in hospital.

Whilst in hospital he suffered a bigger stroke. She was again refused permission to visit him.

After two weeks he was moved to another hospital. His wife was refused permission to visit. The hospital did offer to have a phone next to him so that she could talk to him even though he was, by this time, comatose.

After another two weeks the hospital relented and said she could visit him but she would only be allowed to by being two metres from the bed, wearing a mask, a visor, gloves and a disposable apron. She couldn’t touch him, comfort him or do anything to ease his condition. No one knew if he could hear anything so she would have to shout at him from two metres away and hope he could hear.

After four weeks he has died, alone, apart from a nurse with him right at the end.

NHS? Yeah, fuck you.

165786 ▶▶▶▶ Cristi.Neagu, replying to Doodle, 76, #4 of 2011 🔗

If a private hospital did that, they would know that at the very minimum they would lose one family as customers. They would also be aware that if the story gets out, they would lose a lot more customers. But the NHS doesn’t have to worry about that. Whether a patient lives or dies, whether they are treated like a human being or like a piece of furniture, none of it matters. The government will still force you to pay the NHS. There are no consequences for the NHS. There is no incentive to do better. That is why the NHS is flawed from the start.

165788 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cecil B, replying to Cristi.Neagu, 34, #5 of 2011 🔗

The full story of what happened in the death camps is yet to emerge

165941 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Victoria, replying to Cecil B, 17, #6 of 2011 🔗

death camps

Yes sadly that is what NHS turned into

166183 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Rowan, replying to Cecil B, 10, #7 of 2011 🔗

It will make grim reading. The top management and some others in the NHS have behaved abominably and following government orders will of course be no excuse.

166268 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Nessimmersion, replying to Rowan, 12, #8 of 2011 🔗

I think ultimately it is because the NHS staff see the public as supplicants rather than customers who are deserving in their own right.
The Bismarkian Social Insurance model which most countries bar US & UK have adopted a variation of allows for this:
GPs are not gatekeepers.
If you aren’t happy you can see another specialist or GP at your choice.
You can go straight to a specialist.
You only have to look at how the NHS has performed in comparison to realise how woeful it is as a system.

One system came up with: a)Liverpool Care Pathway.
b)Staffordshire Elderly Feeding Plan.
c) Cumbrian Neonatal Plan
d)Covid Care Home Transfer Plan.
Its not a bloody coincidence!!!

166407 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to Nessimmersion, 7, #9 of 2011 🔗

I think it’s because too many working in the NHS are thinking of themselves and not the patients. The patients are a threat to them so must be kept at a distance as much as possible.

166113 ▶▶▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Cristi.Neagu, -3, #10 of 2011 🔗

Bullshit constantly disproven free-market wishing. It’s nothing to do with the essential nature of the NHS – it’s to do with the political control of it – which happens to be from the far at the moment.

I’ve been in a private hospital during this shit-show – and it’s exactly the same.And it’s been even worse in NY.

166262 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Felice, replying to RickH, 4, #11 of 2011 🔗

Why all the down votes?
I would suspect that the reason that private hospitals are no different to NHS ones is the insurance aspect, which means that private hospitals have absolutely no wriggle room and have to behave like the NHS even if they did not want to.

166285 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Nessimmersion, replying to Felice, 7, #12 of 2011 🔗

NY state accounts for 1/2 of US deaths after Cuomo ordered decanting of Covid positive patients from hospitals into care homes.
He is now trying to deny it, but too many people have a copy of his orders
All the Democrat run states have worse death rates than republican ones.
Funny that.

166565 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Nessimmersion, 3, #13 of 2011 🔗
166617 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cristi.Neagu, replying to Felice, 3, #14 of 2011 🔗

The downvotes are for believing that the US health system has anything in common with a free market system.

166619 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Felice, 1, #15 of 2011 🔗

The blame lies with those medics who have some power and authority but failed to insist that long-established safe medical protocols were allowed to continue, rather than this inhumane and counter-productive nonsense.

166424 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to RickH, 13, #16 of 2011 🔗

It’s not just the politicians in charge. It’s those working in the NHS, and as I’ve just said above, they’re more worried about themselves than patients. That’s not all staff, obviously, but I’ve worked alongside too many whose last concern was the treatment of patients, and greatest concern was their career or personal life.
Even before CV19, there were plenty of admin staff who were borderline hostile to patients. This slide has given them carte blanche to virtually close shop.
Are you familiar with the “Yes Minister” episode about a hospital that had won lots of awards for its efficiency, etc, but hadn’t opened to patients because they just get in the way?? What’s going on is nothing new.

166615 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cristi.Neagu, replying to RickH, 5, #17 of 2011 🔗

If you think that the health system in the US has anything to do with a free market, you are incredibly deluded. There are huge levels of control placed on the US health system. Programs like Medicaid and Medicare remove any interest the patients would have to look for a better deal. The individual practices have no need for competition, because they get their bills paid regardless.
Just go look up why the price of insulin is so high in the US. Socialists would have you believe it’s because of the free market. In reality, the price of insulin is so high the US because the government not only awarded exclusive manufacturing rights to a few companies, but they blocked any and all imports of insulin, as well as blocking imports and manufacturing of insulin alternatives. In other words, through government policy (which is anathema to the free market), a couple of companies get exclusive rights to set whatever price they want on insulin, without any competition.
You are being lied to. The US is no longer a capitalist country. The US health system is anything but capitalist.

166531 ▶▶▶▶▶ David Grimbleby, replying to Cristi.Neagu, 5, #18 of 2011 🔗

What puzzles me is, where is the empathy? Would they like members of their families treated the same?

166634 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cristi.Neagu, replying to David Grimbleby, 4, #19 of 2011 🔗

Maybe the staff has become desensitized from losing so many patients. Maybe they never cared to begin with. But there are studies showing that when people are following orders from what they perceive to be an authoritative figure, they usually throw morals out the door, especially when they’re told that if anything goes wrong, it’s not their responsibility. See the Milgram experiment for more on this.

167909 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to David Grimbleby, #20 of 2011 🔗

Sociopaths are everywhere. I’d like to know how many are in public office.

165795 ▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Doodle, 35, #21 of 2011 🔗

Murdering, vicious, sadistic bastards.

166171 ▶▶▶▶▶ Rowan, replying to annie, 12, #22 of 2011 🔗

Yes indeed, this is about murder and treason against the British people by its own government. Those responsible have to be accountable and face trial for their horrendous crimes.

165813 ▶▶▶▶ Girl down Under, replying to Doodle, 32, #23 of 2011 🔗

This is beyond evil, heartbroken for your friends. I just read your story to my husband who is quite religious and he said, effing c’s. And he doesn’t usually swear.

165833 ▶▶▶▶ Fed up, replying to Doodle, 12, #24 of 2011 🔗

Another war crime

165850 ▶▶▶▶ Richard, replying to Doodle, 31, #25 of 2011 🔗

Heard a similar story from my parents yesterday – how many couples or parents or children every day are having to make that decision to get into ambulance say goodbye and never know if they will see each other again. The medical “profession” should hang its head in shame. Once the truth is really out there I don’t think they will ever recover their reputations. They know what’s happening and what we have 60 have finally decided to speak out. Pathetic

165916 ▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Doodle, 28, #26 of 2011 🔗

Very sorry to hear what happened to your friend. Social distancing is a crime against humanity and this illustrates why.

This incident should be circulated more widely as well as to wake people up and realise that what they were clapping for is essentially a No Help Service and has transmogrified into the National Covid Service.

Bastards the lot of them!

165926 ▶▶▶▶ ianric, replying to Doodle, 38, #27 of 2011 🔗

There is something I find utterly disgusting. One justification for lockdown was to prevent the NHS being overwhelmed. The country had to suffer a lockdown to help the NHS but the NHS shut down and people were denied access to medical care and relatives couldn’t see people in hospital. Imagine if a law was passed making it illegal to cook at home due to fire risk but the fire brigade stopped attending fires. We pay taxes for the NHS. What is the point of paying taxes if we don’t get anything in return. Could someone explain why we were expected to clap for an NHS which shut down. There should be legal action against the NHS.

165961 ▶▶▶▶▶ l835, replying to ianric, 18, #28 of 2011 🔗

We were asked to clap for people who were doing the job they wanted to, and were being paid for…

166438 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to l835, 14, #29 of 2011 🔗

We were asked to clap for an organisation that was largely closed to anyone who didn’t have CV19. It smacked of communist-style propaganda even then.

166458 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ T. Prince, replying to l835, 3, #30 of 2011 🔗

But they weren’t doing it, and were getting paid…..

166406 ▶▶▶▶▶ Tee Ell, replying to ianric, 6, #31 of 2011 🔗

I didn’t clap once, but I have several friends who were working incredibly hard on busy wards for the NHS. One got coronavirus and was wiped out for weeks. I dislike the government’s rules and I think some senior NHS people have been spineless, but let’s not turn this against all workers “on the ground”.

166428 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Darryl, replying to Tee Ell, 9, #32 of 2011 🔗

What I find strange is whilst a percentage of the NHS staff did work hard during the lockdown – a very large percentage was either deliberately under occupied or put on temporary leave due to orders from above. But we are expected to praise the organisation as a whole and countless businesses are giving NHS staff discounts and freebies when in fact Nursing Home Staff and Carers are far more worthy of the handouts than those in departments which abandoned their patients for months.

166521 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ ianric, replying to Darryl, 3, #33 of 2011 🔗

If we are in the middle of a pandemic why were staff placed on leave and hospitals set up to deal with Covid patients have been empty.

166514 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ ianric, replying to Tee Ell, 3, #34 of 2011 🔗

I was not attacking workers on the ground. I was attacking the higher ups who decided that the entire NHS was shut down to treat only Covid patients.

166759 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheshirecatslave, replying to Tee Ell, #35 of 2011 🔗

I didn’t clap and think depriving people of the chance to comfort their loved ones is unforgivable. However, I was recently an outpatient at the local hospital and could not have been treated more kindly. They accepted my mask exemption without question and allowed my friend in the waiting room with me as I’m disabled and was anxious. The consultant herself took me back to my friend.

165990 ▶▶▶▶ HelenaHancart, replying to Doodle, 21, #36 of 2011 🔗

That’s just utterly heartbreaking. We don’t yet know the half of it, but when we do, when the majority public realise it was NOT about “saving the NHS” that they blindly clapped for every Thursday, when they realise the extent of the killing fields in care homes and hospitals of people unable to have any contact with family, of all the people who lost their lives during this “crisis” due to lack of medical care, it will tragically be too late. Will they then finally wake up?

166008 ▶▶▶▶ p02099003, replying to Doodle, 33, #37 of 2011 🔗

When I became a nurse 14 years ago I was not signing up for this type of barbarism. The actions of the hospital are reprehensible, what harm could have resulted in the lady seeing her husband without the PPE and being able to hold him? He was dying, the clinical staff knew that, it wasn’t as if he was going to contract a viral infection. This was cruelty of the highest order. I do have to question myself as to whether I would have let her see and touch her husband, I hope that I would have the courage to say yes to her and tell the hospital where to jump.

166444 ▶▶▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to p02099003, 3, #38 of 2011 🔗

P02099003: It’s the same logic where they won’t start chemotherapy for cancer after an operation until the surgical wound has healed in case they get an infection, because the immune system will be reduced, and the metastases continue to grow and kill the person because they didn’t get chemo in time….

166107 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Doodle, 5, #39 of 2011 🔗

Please send that story to Toby.

166270 ▶▶▶▶ Felice, replying to Doodle, 4, #40 of 2011 🔗

Really really sad. I remember, years ago, when my own father had a minor stroke followed by a major one, we were all allowed to be by his bedside. That was bad enough. I can’t imagine trying to grieve in these circumstances. The anger would get in the way too much.

166275 ▶▶▶▶ Felice, replying to Doodle, 3, #41 of 2011 🔗

I’m wondering if this is a local decision. My 96 year old mother suffered a heart attack back in July and we were allowed to visit at the John Radcliffe hospital in Oxford. Only 2 (not sure if this was per visit, or only 2 ever) visitors allowed, but that was humane. Also wondering if it is the same now.

166450 ▶▶▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to Felice, 3, #42 of 2011 🔗

Our friend’s wife was not allowed to visit him in hospital when he was treated for bronchitis back in early May. He died in hospital from CV19 (we assume, because he tested positive) without his wife having been allowed to visit him for two weeks.

166603 ▶▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Doodle, 6, #43 of 2011 🔗

I won’t be letting either of us go into hospital. We’ll die at home in our own beds. I want nothing to do with the NHS.

167118 ▶▶▶▶ James Bertram, replying to Doodle, #44 of 2011 🔗

Sent this to my MP with the comment ‘thought you’d like to know what you are supporting’.

165866 ▶▶▶ mjr, replying to Doodle, 1, #45 of 2011 🔗

love the t shirt.. from where?

165792 ▶▶ Sir Patrick Vaccine, replying to Doodle, 21, #46 of 2011 🔗

Anders Tegnell on Neil Ferguson: “…rubbish in…rubbish out”. Ferguson model under big pressure
youtube watch?v=xWwn6f-WLTI

165783 Cecil B, replying to Cecil B, 26, #47 of 2011 🔗

The dictator panicked? Who knew?

165785 ▶▶ helen, replying to Cecil B, #48 of 2011 🔗


165789 ▶▶ Doodle, replying to Cecil B, 25, #49 of 2011 🔗

I don’t actually hold that against him per se. It was an unknown virus, he was taken in by Ferguson’s doomsday model and panicked.

Now though there is no excuse to continue with the course of action he embarked upon.

There is enough evidence out there to stop this train before it really smacks into the buffers. Instead he appears to still be in panic mode for reasons that elude me and countless others especially on here.

Maybe he has been ‘got at’. I doubt we’ll ever know.

165796 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Doodle, 40, #50 of 2011 🔗

If he or any if the cretinous mob had spent five minutes looking into Ferguson’s previous convictions, they’d have known where to stick his. ‘predictions’.

165808 ▶▶▶▶ Steve Martindale, replying to annie, 57, #51 of 2011 🔗

Boris is work shy and with little management experience or ability and so he was only to happy to pass this on to the scary megalomaniac team of Witty/Valance/Hancock. In his ‘Have I got news for you’ days we would probably have been the first to lampoon this horror movie trio but he just ducked out of doing any actual work and left it to them with dire consequences.
The weird thing about this hoo-haa is how I am now following, reading and listening to people like Peter Hitchens and Julia HB when previously I would have thought they were not on my wavelength.If anything this has shown some people in their true colours.

165835 ▶▶▶▶▶ Tom Blackburn, replying to Steve Martindale, 16, #52 of 2011 🔗

Agree regarding Mr H. I wouldn’t have gone near him last year. Now I think he is a hero!

165981 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Alan P, replying to Tom Blackburn, 15, #53 of 2011 🔗

I have found myself agreeing with many people that I would never have considered “bedfellows “ before.

War makes allies of previous enemies eh?

166664 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ wat tyler, replying to Alan P, 4, #54 of 2011 🔗

I had never listened to talk radio before in my life until this year,there isn’t a day goes by now when they don’t have a sceptical interview on .They have thousands of listeners and i can’t think of a better way to get our message across.

167496 ▶▶▶▶▶ H K, replying to Steve Martindale, #55 of 2011 🔗

I’ve been liking Peter Hitchens since the Brexit referendum, but certainly the Corona virus situation has really exposed people for who they really are (media, MP’s, police, NHS etc etc), and some everyday heroes/leaders who are fighting against this narrative

165837 ▶▶▶▶ Fed up, replying to annie, 16, #56 of 2011 🔗

There is such a thing as due diligence. And checking past performance is a minimum requirement

165842 ▶▶▶▶ dpj, replying to annie, 18, #57 of 2011 🔗

It would appear that he had the choice of going with Ferguson’s model or listening to Michael Levitt and he decided to go with the model. That situation happens at my work all the time, there are people who always make a mess of things and others who are usually right and management regularly listen to people in the first of these categories because they tell them what they want to hear with no basis in fact and result is always predictable. I don’t have a lot of sympathy for them for constantly repeating same mistake so I struggle to defend Boris for doing the same and deciding a serial incompetent was person to listen to.

165936 ▶▶▶▶▶ Sally, replying to dpj, 34, #58 of 2011 🔗

There were more than those choices. If Johnson had two neurons to rub together he could have cobbled together some penetrating questions himself. For example, a SAGE document from 2 March shows quite clearly that they were well aware of the extreme age skew in the impact of the virus. This alone should have been enough to prompt questioning as to the wisdom of a policy of locking down the entire population including young and working age people at minimum risk.

People should stop making excuses for Boris and his cabinet. There was ample information available at the time to reject out of hand Ferguson’s ludicrous recommendations.

166061 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Sally, 15, #59 of 2011 🔗

Exactly. And someone posted on here a day or so ago that Johnson has had a recent meeting with Prof Sunetra Gupta but is refusing to follow her advice. MW

166130 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ dpj, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 6, #60 of 2011 🔗

Yes, I was just using one example but I’m sure there are lots of other examples that just make him look even more incompetent. Both Gupta & Heneghan were apparently invited to recent SAGE call and ignored as well for example.

166479 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to Sally, 1, #61 of 2011 🔗

It’s less excuses, and more ammunition and we-told-you-so.

166201 ▶▶▶▶▶ Antonedes, replying to dpj, 10, #62 of 2011 🔗

I sympathise, but a Prime Minister will rely on the appointed government experts, namely, Whitty and Vallance. It is their job to analyse and filter the advice and make a recommendation. It seems they have been either negligent or incompetent, in either case they should be sacked.

166267 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Antonedes, 3, #63 of 2011 🔗

Too kind. N egligent or incompetent or malicious or ‘something else’.

If we can’t analyse problems in full, we’re no better than them.

166485 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to JohnB, #64 of 2011 🔗

We don’t have all the information regarding “something else.” We’re mostly guessing on that.

166767 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Lms23, #65 of 2011 🔗

For sure. Even more reason we should not limit our analysis to just two possibilities though.

166053 ▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to annie, 2, #66 of 2011 🔗

Exactly. BTW, is Ann still the ‘pseudonym’ of Annie? MW

166269 ▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, #67 of 2011 🔗

I believe so. 🙂

166333 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to JohnB, #68 of 2011 🔗

Thanks, confirmed by ‘Ann’s’ horrible experience in church today, reported below. MW

166559 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, #69 of 2011 🔗

Yes, it’s me. No idea where my ie went!

166703 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to annie, #70 of 2011 🔗

Thanks, Annie. We’re probably all used to the New You by now but, if you want to, I think you can restore the ‘Old Normal’ by logging out, logging back in with your email address and re-setting your profile. Something similar happened to me on Off-Guardian where, instead of losing letters, I required a few extras and ended up as Miriamwxyz or similar. Eventually I worked it out! (AG says it’s an automatic guillotine imposed by SPI-B 😉 Only the elect are targeted for Handle-Corruption.) MW

165800 ▶▶▶ Caramel, replying to Doodle, 43, #71 of 2011 🔗

What about it was unknown? It’s a coronavirus. There was information back in March that showed the age demographics, there were studies from other countries and the Diamond Princess cruise ship.

165939 ▶▶▶▶ ianric, replying to Caramel, 17, #72 of 2011 🔗

On the 19th of March the government downgraded coronavirus to a non dangerous disease which means the government must have known about the virus to make that statement. There are two critical areas I would like to address

* What knowledge did the government have about how coronavirus spreads as to justify lockdowns. A FOI request to NHS England couldn’t answer this question.

* Healthy asymptomatic people were placed under quarantine. What evidence was there to support asymptomatic transmission?

166653 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to ianric, 3, #73 of 2011 🔗

China had said there was no evidence to support the asymptomatic transmission hypothesis. Yet the entire UK strategy has been based on that false premiss.

166944 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ ianric, replying to Cheezilla, #74 of 2011 🔗

To the best of my knowledge asymptomatic transmission has not been considered to exist in other respiratory diseases. What is striking about coronavirus is that no distinction is made between sick people with symptoms and healthy people with no symptoms. Both are regarded as equally infectious. On the comments I have raised this issue which I have received good responses. Regarding everyone as possibly infected has been at the root of the disaster we face. Lockdown laws apply to the whole population which has crippled our economy and society. For instance, under lockdown rules the entire population can’t do basic things like have visitors in their homes. Everyone has to wear masks. Businesses have to close or endure damaging regulations on the assumption any of their customers can be infected. Many of the public regard healthy symptom free people as infected.

In view of the above, assessing whether asymptomatic transmission exists is very important but s urprisingly lockdown opponents have not dealt with this issue to my knowledge. As far as I can recall Toby has not dealt with this issue. Simon Dolan never addressed this issue in his legal challenge. The legal challenge by Simon Dolan argued lockdowns were a disproportionate reaction. If it can be proved asymptomatic transmission doesn’t exit, the challenge could argue putting healthy symptom free people under lockdown laws was disproportionate.

If asymptomatic transmission exists there are numerous issues raised. Are asymptomatic carriers infectious but less infectious than symptomatic carriers, how would asymptomatic carriers transmit if they didn’t cough or sneeze, how long do asymptomatic carriers carry a viral load sufficient to infect others, where is the scientific research to support asymptomatic transmission.

165942 ▶▶▶▶ Sally, replying to Caramel, 12, #75 of 2011 🔗

Exactly. People who persist with the “so much was unknown” line were simply unaware themselves of the large quantity of data already available in February and early March. Government decision-makers most certainly were aware of this data.

166154 ▶▶▶ Will, replying to Doodle, 16, #76 of 2011 🔗

Exactly. Sweden demonstrated within a couple of weeks that Ferguson’s modelling was up to his usual standard, utter horse shit. As soon as that was clear, every other country should have followed Sweden’s lead and opened up from lockdown as soon as possible to mitigate the appalling collateral damage. Sensible countries like Denmark, Germany, Austria and Switzerland did precisely that and have got closer to herd immunity, thereby mitigating any second wave.

166475 ▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to Doodle, 2, #77 of 2011 🔗

I theorized that it’s possible that Boris could have suffered from mild brain damage as a result of the severe CV19 illness that he had. We know that in some people, what kills them is the blood clotting, i.e. tiny blood clots blocking blood supply to various organs. That would include the brain. It wouldn’t be enough to cause a stroke or similar, but could potentially cause a change in personality.

My brother-in-law had something similar, ie reduced blood supply and oxygen to his brain, and it caused a noticeable change in personality, which is what my sister noticed and kept telling the GP. The GP just treated him for depression, ignoring my sister, but the symptoms, including depression, had a physical cause. Luckily we know a consultant neurologist, and she managed to get my BIL treated privately.

The point being that it’s not beyond the realms of possibility that something like this has happened to Boris..

166675 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Lms23, 8, #78 of 2011 🔗

Balderdash! He’s “fitter than several butcher’s dogs.”
He is, however, a bone idle skiver, booze artist and well-practised liar.

Besides, what turned Whitless into a barefaced liar and Wankock into the ultimate wannabe Hitler?

166637 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Doodle, 5, #79 of 2011 🔗

Given Ferguson’s previous track record, there’s absolutely no excuse for hiring him, let alone being “taken in” by his predictive bollox.

165790 ▶▶ helen, replying to Cecil B, 11, #80 of 2011 🔗

Merkel, Macron, Sanchez …leaders worldwide panicked?

165825 ▶▶▶ RichT, replying to helen, 23, #81 of 2011 🔗

Apparantly neighbouring countries just copied each other, but there were certainly a number of guiding hands (WHO, WEF, UN, B&MGF etc).
When this is over we need an inquiry into both our governments actions and the role played by these NGO’s.

165896 ▶▶▶▶ Basics, replying to RichT, 2, #82 of 2011 🔗

Things are progressing apace.

165930 ▶▶▶▶ JulieR, replying to RichT, 4, #83 of 2011 🔗

The problem is they don’t want it to be over.
The Germans have started their inquiry.
Simon Dolan wants a judicial review here.

166063 ▶▶▶▶▶ Silke David, replying to JulieR, #84 of 2011 🔗

As far as u know there is no offial inquiry? Only the Doctors fuer Aufklarung and their private inquiry..

166058 ▶▶▶▶ helen, replying to RichT, #85 of 2011 🔗

Yes, I agree

165892 ▶▶▶ Basics, replying to helen, 2, #86 of 2011 🔗

Yep, all known to be nervy folk. It’s common among worldwide leaders – nervy panickers. Totally. Panic. Panic.

166273 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Basics, 1, #87 of 2011 🔗

Bollocks. Bollocks.

Occam’s razor suggests they were (and are still) simply following the same script.

166187 ▶▶▶ Will, replying to helen, 7, #88 of 2011 🔗

And Macron is documented as having threatened to shut the border if we didn’t lock down. Yet another person Johnson can chuck under the bus…

166489 ▶▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to Will, #89 of 2011 🔗

Should have let him follow through on that. It works both ways, and we might not have hundreds of illegal migrants turn up daily on our shores….

165846 ▶▶ Ovis, replying to Cecil B, 37, #90 of 2011 🔗

He did not panic. This narrative lets him off the hook.

He made a political decision, and in narrow tactical terms it was a jolly clever decision. Labour and the media were demanding lockdown, and salivating over deaths which could be used to push the ‘heartless Tories’ line. By doing as they told him, he trapped them all into permanent support for his regime. Starmer is Johnson’s gimp, able to whine only about the minutiae of implementation. The media is Johnson’s mouthpiece, because they dare not criticise the policy they demanded. They are all now desperately looking to the regime to get them off the hook.

No, Johnson did not panic. He made a political decision; Ferguson gave him a fig leaf. The idea that no one thought to question a highly contentious bullshit model at a time when there were known to be different scientific views is not credible. Ferguson was heard because what he said fitted the decision that had already been made. Note that Cummings was pushing lockdown inside SAGE meetings long before the rest fell into line.

165857 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Ovis, 1, #91 of 2011 🔗

Is Boris really that clever?

165886 ▶▶▶▶ Caroline Watson, replying to annie, 12, #92 of 2011 🔗

No, but Cummings is!

165888 ▶▶▶▶▶ Ovis, replying to Caroline Watson, 1, #93 of 2011 🔗

Caroline, we have a psychic link!

165922 ▶▶▶▶▶ TJN, replying to Caroline Watson, 10, #94 of 2011 🔗

I don’t think Cummings is clever. He thinks he is; but that’s another matter. And people who think they’re clever but aren’t are dangerous if given responsibility.

166080 ▶▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Caroline Watson, 1, #95 of 2011 🔗

And so is Starmer. Whatever Labour is up to, I do not believe Sir ‘Trilateral Commission’ Starmer is Johnson’s gimp. He is as signed up as anyone to the bigger picture. If Johnson and co get thrown to the wolves, expect Sir Keir to step up. MW

166146 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ RickH, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 10, #96 of 2011 🔗

The position of Starmer is clear. Forget your personal views on Corbyn for a while (they’re not relevant to the argument), step back, and look at the history.

Corbyn was subjected to an unprecedented propaganda campaign, full of distortion and untruth. Many honest observers, whatever their personal predilections, have noted this pretty obvious fact.

Notably, the campaign involved two ex-heads of MI6 being used to channel smears (a clear indication of establishment propaganda at work). The Groan was particularly active in confecting stories.

Greasy finger-prints everywhere.

Inevitably, Corbyn goes after the election.

Who is there, falling over himself to align with the establishment agenda, with an extremely flattering and forgetful media?

Yes – your previously identified unradical shill, previously well-embedded in the establishment culture

It’s not difficult to join up the dots if you observed the process.

166160 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to RickH, 3, #97 of 2011 🔗

It’s not difficult to join up the dots if you observed the process. Yes, Rick, we agree with your succinct and excellent analysis 100%. MW and AG

166322 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Nessimmersion, replying to RickH, 4, #98 of 2011 🔗

The BBC / press have memory holed Starmers previous performance as DPP.
Remember the DPP who presided over the twitter joke trial where Paul Chambers was jailed for a tweet about delayed flights

Yes that f****** Starmer.

166390 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Nessimmersion, 3, #99 of 2011 🔗

This is also Starmer at his finest, fast-tracking the extradition of Julian Assange:

As DPP, Sir Keir Starmer tempered his supposed love of liberty by fast-tracking the extradition of Julian Assange (a process now making its way through the courts). He flouted legal precedents by advising Swedish lawyers not to question Assange in Britain: a decision that prolonged the latter’s legal purgatory, denied closure to his accusers in Sweden, and sealed his fate before a US show trial. Leaked emails from August 2012 show that, when the Swedish legal team expressed hesitancy about keeping Assange’s case open, Sir Keir’s office replied: ‘Don’t you dare get cold feet’.

https://labourheartlands.com/exclusive-ken-loach-calls-out-sir-keir-starmer-what-was-his-dealings-in-the-julian-assange-case/ and otherwise widely reported.

He also let Dame Dick off for the police’s ‘mistaken’ killing of Jean-Charles de Menezez in 2008:

Keir Starmer QC, Director of Public Prosecutions, approved a decision not to prosecute any police over the shooting.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/family-of-jean-charles-de-menezes-1009708 also widely reported at the time. MW

166497 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to RickH, 4, #100 of 2011 🔗

“Corbyn was subjected to an unprecedented propaganda campaign, full of distortion and untruth. ”

And plenty of truth. The Marxists in Labour made it unelectable. It was the younger generation who had no idea of Corbyn’s past history who needed to be told, and everyone else reminded.

If you want an unprecedented propaganda campaign, look no further than the Russia Collusion campaign carried out on the other side of the pond.

165905 ▶▶▶ Sophie123, replying to Ovis, 6, #101 of 2011 🔗

I very much agree.

The stupid part however is that nobody appeared to have worked out an exit plan. Such blatant political short termism.

165908 ▶▶▶ Fed up, replying to Ovis, 7, #102 of 2011 🔗

Refuse to accept that going into lockdown was a sophisticated political move. The events post LD show that at no point did they have a credible end game/exit strategy. If it wasn’t panic because of the Ferguson model, it was nonetheless an ill thought out plan borne out of short termism.

165945 ▶▶▶▶ Ovis, replying to Fed up, 3, #103 of 2011 🔗

If the aim was narrowly political, lockdown has worked and worked as a fairly long term strategy. Instead of a politically dangerous ‘heartless Tories’ line gaining traction, Labour and the media are in captivity to the regime, have been since March, and still have no wriggle room. Yes, the country is screwed, but in a context in which it was assumed all other governments were folding too, that makes no odds politically.

166284 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Fed up, 6, #104 of 2011 🔗

I love it that people expect an end game/exit strategy. Nice intelligent people, but not nearly cynical enough.

It was a coup, and the current situation is their desired outcome.

166684 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to JohnB, 5, #105 of 2011 🔗

I agree. They’ve had plenty of opportunities to claim victory and unlock the economy.
Instead, they have “ramped up” testing to create an epidemic of fake infections to justify stalling until they can mandate the “health passport” which is their goal.

166492 ▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to Ovis, 1, #106 of 2011 🔗

Trash the economy and kill thousand as collateral damage just to get at Labour and the media? That’s just as bad as panicking.

166549 ▶▶▶▶ Sophie123, replying to Lms23, 4, #107 of 2011 🔗

But the only ambition they have is preservation of political power. So it makes sense: easy way to neutralise any opposition.

But like I say, stupidly short termist, because unless they can engineer a mammoth economic rebound, they’ll be blamed for the fallout. And labour and the media are sure to capitalise on that.

166588 ▶▶▶▶▶ Ovis, replying to Sophie123, 2, #108 of 2011 🔗

Yes, I do agree with that, Sophie. It has to end on their terms, or they’re stuffed. Neither the vaccine nor the money shot look like Hollywood endings, so we are in for an interesting few months.

166580 ▶▶▶▶ Ovis, replying to Lms23, 3, #109 of 2011 🔗

No, it’s worse than panicking. That’s why I take issue with the panic narrative. It lets them off.

167082 ▶▶▶ charleyfarley, replying to Ovis, 3, #110 of 2011 🔗

Do you remember the hoo-haa before the last election over the boy who was pictured in hospital lying on the floor waiting for treatment? I think Boris and his chums thought that if the media can make that much fuss about a single patient, what will they do with an Italy style situation . . . ? The media have a lot to answer for but the blame lies squarely on Boris, Hancock and Ferguson.

165787 Cecil B, 15, #111 of 2011 🔗

Irony alert

The statue of George Orwell stands outside broadcasting house

Room 101 in The Ministry of Love was named after conference room 101 in the BBC building; where Orwell had to endure long tortuous meetings

Can the statue be relocated in Toby’s front garden?

165791 Sir Patrick Vaccine, replying to Sir Patrick Vaccine, 8, #112 of 2011 🔗

Anders Tegnell on Neil Ferguson: “…rubbish in…rubbish out”. Ferguson model under big pressure
youtube watch?v=xWwn6f-WLTI

165802 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Sir Patrick Vaccine, 13, #113 of 2011 🔗

Watching that video, my view is the compounded errors result in more than a factor of 12 error. That number is based on Ferguson’s prediction versus the ‘real figure’ of 42,000. But we know that the 42,000 is probably at least double what it should be, and arguably worse. For a start, should we really be counting the demise of a 90-year-old with co-morbidities as a Covid death at all? In many cases, Covid may be present (but with PCR, who knows?) and not the main cause of death at all.

I think Ferguson’s main errors are going to be:

  1. Extreme IFR value
  2. Ridiculously simple core model that doesn’t reflect the immune system
  3. Ignorance of pre-existing immunity/resistance

His calculation of herd immunity threshold is based on the R0 figure and the equal-susceptibility SIR model, and so his death count automatically scales with IFR. But as we know, ‘IFR’ is a tricky thing to define because ‘infection’ itself is not a binary state. Antibodies are not the only mechanism by which the body can deal with a virus, and PCR is unreliable, so I think IFR figures should be taken with a pinch of salt. I suspect that the reality is that a large proportion of the population has had some encounter with the virus and developed some sort of resistance to it, but there may be no way to measure this, so whether it can be called ‘infection’ is open to debate.

Sometimes, I think rational argument (which would be seen by some as hand waving) is the best we can do, backed up with smatterings of real world data. As soon as we introduce some arbitrary definition of infection as, say, a positive antibody test, and then define our IFR on that basis, and then extrapolate it to a deaths calculation for the population, and then calculate the herd immunity threshold in terms of ‘infection’ and therefore antibodies, we introduce factor-of-ten errors very easily and introduce logical conundrums. If, based on our IFR and ‘R0’, we calculate we need 60% of the population to show antibodies before we declare herd immunity, we may be waiting forever.

165829 ▶▶▶ TJN, replying to Barney McGrew, 22, #114 of 2011 🔗

Good post. I agree with your three Ferguson errors, except that I’d add that I think he was deliberately making things look as bad as possible in order to place himself at the heart of policy-making – i.e. I think he’s dishonest, and criminally so.

165925 ▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to Barney McGrew, 7, #115 of 2011 🔗

It’s also that a rough estimate of “could we deal with 120,000 dying? i.e. double a bad flu season” and then working to build contingency around that, would demonstrate that the models were moot. As they are.

The trouble is that SAGE does not include any practical people with real-life experience on safety projects i.e. engineers of all kinds.

You would quickly see the stupidity of using models like this as well as trying shut down large sections of society.

166156 ▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Barney McGrew, 5, #116 of 2011 🔗

“the 42,000 is probably at least double what it should be


166491 ▶▶▶ Kevin 2, replying to Barney McGrew, 5, #117 of 2011 🔗

Antibody tests are no good for HIT calculations.
Low viral load infections do not always lead to antibody production.
Antibody presence can be shortlived.
All denials of the HIT having been reached, will always be based on dubious community seroprevalance studies.

166686 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Sir Patrick Vaccine, #118 of 2011 🔗

Ferguson model under big pressure – yet again!

165793 Cecil B, replying to Cecil B, 47, #119 of 2011 🔗

Huge numbers from Imperial College
Huge vaccine orders
Huge bill for the taxpayers
Huge profits
Huge wedge to Imperial College

Anyone made the connection yet?

165848 ▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to Cecil B, 9, #120 of 2011 🔗

If we’d have said this 6 months ago the blunt weapon of “conspiracist” would have been used to silence.

166104 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Cecil B, #121 of 2011 🔗

Also a large proportion of their students are from China..

165797 Tim Bidie, replying to Tim Bidie, 24, #122 of 2011 🔗

All this nonsense today derives from the mission creep of environmental science since the 1970s. Any independent national inquiry must look at the dodgy intellectual roots responsible for this debacle in order to cut them out, cauterize the gaping wound that will leave at the centre of the Whitehall and other state bureaucracies, including the state broadcaster.

Instead, they’ve swallowed the government’s line that “the science” is clear and unquestioned, and that the prospects, should we fail to “follow” the science, are apocalyptic.

Both are highly disputable. Science is divided. The most apocalyptic, however, are getting the loudest shout.’

The Times (above)

What does that remind you of?

‘….the public climate science debate has been framed as “deniers” versus “alarmists”, or “honest saintly scientists” versus “corrupt perpetrators of a hoax”. The media pushes exaggerated claims of a crisis while some scientists misleadingly shield their hypotheses claiming the “science is settled”. But science is a process and never settled.’

Jim Steele, Pacifica Tribune September 30, 2020

‘When this program started, we used a precautionary principle…..’

Dr Harries England Deputy Chief Medical Officer June 22 2020

‘Precaution is a slippery but appealing term that emerged in the social democratic planning era of the 1970s in the former West Germany. At the core of the early conceptions was the belief that regulatory agencies and governments should move to minimise environmental risks by anticipating possible danger’

‘In the last decade the precautionary principle has entered into the lexicon of modern environmentalism with remarkable speed and stealth. Nowadays, it appears regularly in national legislation, in international statements of policy…..;

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-349-24237-5_5 1995

Put environmental science back in its box (it’s killing us) and ditch the precautionary principle……..it is lethal, particularly when incompetently applied without the necessary cost benefit analysis to moderate its draconian effect on policy, disastrous effect on the most vulnerable; a disgrace, quite probably a crime.

165804 ▶▶ helen, replying to Tim Bidie, 19, #123 of 2011 🔗

Excellent comment
As an environmental scientist I can say that this is exactly my experience. Funding by corporations and political bodies like the United Nations has been driving the teaching of dogma in environmental education. Open discussion of scientific theories is something from the past.

165820 ▶▶▶ Basics, replying to helen, 15, #124 of 2011 🔗

You may find interest in the Corbett Report’s two documentaries How Big Oil Conquered the World and Why Big Oil Conquered the World.

In them it is shown how from very early on oil derivatives, which became modern pharmaceutical corporations, loaded target university boards by the same mechanism of funding as you describe. The intention of which was to steer medical academia towards pharmaceuticals.

165855 ▶▶▶▶ helen, replying to Basics, 1, #125 of 2011 🔗

Thanks, I will take a look.

166093 ▶▶▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to helen, 3, #126 of 2011 🔗

They are excellent – we’ve watched them both in the last couple of days. I would also recommend his World War 1 documentaries. Meticulous research, brilliantly filmed and the roots of what is going on now plain to see. MW

166725 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Basics, #127 of 2011 🔗

See also the second half of G.Edward Griffin’s book, World Without Cancer

167510 ▶▶▶▶ H K, replying to Basics, #128 of 2011 🔗

I can also recommend The Corbett Report’s youtube channel.

165816 ▶▶ helen, replying to Tim Bidie, 7, #129 of 2011 🔗

Ferguson’s prediction was the so called ‘reasonable worse case scenario’ and when applying the precautionary principle the inevitable result is the shelving of risk assessment proceedures.

‘Stay safe’ at all costs!

RISKS of failure to apply to apply risk assessment are described in this document posted on this site.

Leaked Analysis of the Impact of the Lockdown by a Senior Official at the German Ministry of the Interior – Lockdown Sceptics

165909 ▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to helen, 4, #130 of 2011 🔗

Ferguson’s scenario was an outlier, not a reasonable case. 120,000 would be reasonable worst-case, if you doubled the typical flu IFR.

That’s the same as 100% margin on flight tolerances or tank pressures used in space.

The point of a worst-case is not to predict the most extreme. It’s to prepare you for contingency. Because after all we’re not planning for an asteroid hit.

165960 ▶▶▶▶ helen, replying to mhcp, #131 of 2011 🔗

you missed the point

165924 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Tim Bidie, 15, #132 of 2011 🔗

Well said. This crisis has also played into the greens’ hands especially when it comes to the aviation and travel/tourism industries – lockdown, quarantines, social distancing and mandatory muzzling has dealt a hammer blow to both sectors which will take years to recover. Of course the greens won’t care because it could set back the clock in the bad old days when only the rich and upper middle class could afford to travel around and the rest of us will have to make do with Bognor Regis or Scarborough.

That said I’m amazed at the deafening silence from the greens when it comes to the problems of masks and gloves littering our environment (far worse than single use plastic) and lockdowns acutally harming conservation projects in places such as Africa.

166122 ▶▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Bart Simpson, 12, #133 of 2011 🔗

Our Green/Left acquaintances locally have entered a new state of denial. All well-heeled, they do not appear to have a problem with what’s going on and their earlier Covi-hysteria has been replaced with an enthusiastic embrace of the ‘New Normal’ – zoom meetings, masks, online exercise, home deliveries and all. When we pointed out to one of them the other day that we’d seen masks strewn on the pavement her response was, ‘Oh they probably didn’t mean to do it, maybe they dropped out of someone’s handbag.’ Previously she would have been horrified at the pollution and litter. Bless. MW

166760 ▶▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 1, #134 of 2011 🔗

Funny thing is even before this shit show, every time I mentioned littering to the green inclined, its always greeted with tubleweed.

166163 ▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Bart Simpson, 8, #135 of 2011 🔗

This obsessive’s linking of ‘green’ issues (amongst other hobby-horses) to the current shit-show is one of the things that undermines the force of the arguments against the shit-show.

166103 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Tim Bidie, 3, #136 of 2011 🔗

Not seen Jenny Harries on TV or the internet for ages- wondering why?

165798 Wuzzo, replying to Wuzzo, 9, #137 of 2011 🔗

Don’t think even Ferguson would have predicted 50000 people dying of foot and mouth disease. I know a lot of people are like sheep, but…

165834 ▶▶ annie, replying to Wuzzo, 3, #138 of 2011 🔗

Zombies are devil-worshippers and the devil notoriously has cloven hooves.

165799 annie, replying to annie, 29, #139 of 2011 🔗

Wancock will salivate when he reads this from the Yeadon article on compulsory vaccination:

“state mandates should not be structured as compulsory vaccination (absolute requirements); instead, noncompliance should incur a penalty. Nevertheless, because of the infectiousness and dangerousness of the virus, relatively substantive penalties could be justified, including employment suspension or stay-at-home orders for persons in designated high-priority groups who refuse vaccination.”

And they say we sceptics are alarmist!

He also recommends compensation for people who suffer adverse effects. Dilly dilly, dilly dilly, come and be killed, and maybe the government will pay a bit towards your coffin.

166166 ▶▶ RickH, replying to annie, 3, #140 of 2011 🔗

the infectiousness and dangerousness of the virus”


166302 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to RickH, #141 of 2011 🔗

Heh heh …

166741 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to annie, #142 of 2011 🔗


165801 Basics, replying to Basics, 27, #143 of 2011 🔗

Dr. Reiner Fuellmich is a consumer protection trial lawyer in Germany and California. He is one of four members of the German Corona Investigative Committee.


50 minutes – an exceptionally important watch. Dr Fuellnich gives a complete, step by step, exposure of the whole, entire thing from the beginning up until today. The crimes, the fraud, who and how. Cannot over state how important this development is. Please share onwards – perhaps MPs would value seeing this.

Crimes Against Humanity

165805 ▶▶ helen, replying to Basics, 4, #144 of 2011 🔗


165849 ▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to Basics, 1, #145 of 2011 🔗

I love this man.

165948 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Basics, 1, #146 of 2011 🔗

Watched! Brilliant!

165972 ▶▶ Nsklent, replying to Basics, 3, #147 of 2011 🔗

Thank you. Just watched it, and have shared, including Toby, though noted I had got it from his comment section. I am in the process of emailing my MP for the umpteenth time – never replies – and will attach this. Hopefully in his subconscious, the echo of ‘I was only following orders”, might galvanise a backbone to be grown, even if it is just for selfish arse covering.

Could I suggest you repost this after a couple of hours so it doesn’t get lost in the multitude of comments.

166177 ▶▶ Harry hopkins, replying to Basics, 1, #148 of 2011 🔗

I’ve sent this video to UKcolumn—-I’ll be surprised if they don’t feature this.

166744 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Harry hopkins, 1, #149 of 2011 🔗

Great! I was going to – but not sure I already sent it last night. At least they won’t miss it!

165803 Barney McGrew, replying to Barney McGrew, 9, #150 of 2011 🔗

A question about vaccine trials. If 80% of the population had pre-existing resistance/immunity to a virus (as has been suggested with SARS-Cov-2) does that mean that provoking an antibody response from them would be difficult? Is the aim of a vaccine trial to provoke antibody responses from everyone ? – even the people who are already immune?

In the case of SARS-Cov-2, many people still assume that it is ‘novel’ and that we have no pre-existing immunity. Is this still the official view? If it isn’t the official view, that’s a tacit denial of Ferguson’s model; if it is the official view, it looks like a conundrum for vaccine development. A tangled web…

165824 ▶▶ Steve Martindale, replying to Barney McGrew, 14, #151 of 2011 🔗

Everything about this hoo-haa seems to have been done in a hysterical panic driven febrile manner with little in depth lateral thinking and very poor management. This whole vaccine business seems to fall into the same category.
As far as I can gather SARS-Cov2 has a significant upper respiratory tract effect and in that way has some similarities to the common cold for which a vaccine has always proved elusive. Indeed, even if we do get a vaccine it is likely to be against the second stage effects of Covid 19 and it is possible that even immunised people will still get the upper respiratory tract infections and still test +ve with a swab test.

It increasingly seems to me that given the nature of this disease we would do better directing some of the vaccine resources to develop effective treatments for people who do unfortunately go on to develop serious COVID 19 symptoms.

166750 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Steve Martindale, 1, #152 of 2011 🔗

That would be common sense but the real agenda precludes that.

165840 ▶▶ Sophie123, replying to Barney McGrew, 1, #153 of 2011 🔗

I looked up the endpoints on the study (available here: https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04516746?term=Azd1222&draw=2&rank=1 )

in theory the vaccine’s efficacy should be based on results for the primary endpoint, which is prevention of infection (symptoms plus positive PCR test). That makes sense.

However there are a whole bunch of secondary endpoints, including production of antibodies and whole load of other biomarkers. The issue for me will be whether the regulator decides to approve on the basis of secondary endpoints in the event that the primary endpoint is not achieved. That would be scandalous.

I don’t think 80pct pre-existing immunity is that likely, surely? How did the infection spread so rapidly in Mar/Apr if that were the case? Maybe more like 50pct says my gut feel. I will have to do some research on that. I suspect it’s a lot like flu. Lots of asymptomatic people due to prior exposures.

166504 ▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Sophie123, 3, #154 of 2011 🔗

Nosocomial transmission would be my guess as to why (if) it spread in March and April. We (think we) know that there were a lot of PCR ‘cases’ then, but PCR testing has been refined since then and is still regarded as untrustworthy. We think there were some excess deaths (now ‘amortised’), but many of those could have been people dying of having their treatment stopped and the hospitals shut, plus heavily-infected oldsters (though not necessarily C19!) being sent out into the care homes. There is also the small matter of ‘dry tinder’ due to previous mild winter(s).

The 80% doesn’t necessarily refer to ‘immunity’. It could be partial immunity or, to use a different term, ‘resistance’. Neil Ferguson only works with binary states, but the reality is that there can be shades of grey that could transform the modelling.

166554 ▶▶▶▶ Sophie123, replying to Barney McGrew, 1, #155 of 2011 🔗

all fair points.

166754 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Barney McGrew, 1, #156 of 2011 🔗

The early PCR tests were on those with definite symptoms, not like the cattle market scenario we have now.

166966 ▶▶▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Cheezilla, #157 of 2011 🔗

Maybe. But there will always be plenty of ‘flu-like symptoms’. I just don’t trust these people to get anything right. And I don’t trust them to tell the truth.

165806 Basics, replying to Basics, 23, #158 of 2011 🔗

Ridiculous Oxford vaccine trials in Africa.

Oxford vaccine trials are being carried out on the poorest people in the world, in Africa. As this excellent video asks and then answers, why would a vaccine trial in Oxford travel halfway around the world to a place that has lower rates of Covid than elsewhere?

Any lockdown loving westerner needs to see and know the shame of what IS happening as humans are right now being used as lab rats by the Oxford trial in order to bring them a vaccine. Heart breaking and sickening.

Your government does not want people to know this.

Particularly fine coverage by scientist Obianuju Ekeocha

165821 ▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to Basics, 15, #159 of 2011 🔗

I have put this video on my Facebook preceded by 3 words only

Black Lives Matter

Please everyone, do the same.

We only need to say these three words before that video on a site like Facebook. Nothing else.

X x

165826 ▶▶▶ Basics, replying to Country Mumkin, 1, #160 of 2011 🔗

They absolutely do. Great idea, country.

165827 ▶▶▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to Basics, 2, #161 of 2011 🔗


I want to write that large so everyone reads mine and basics post.

This is an opportunity to open up the discussion simply

Use this phrase on your social media and the link on Basics post. That’s all. Please do it.

I think it has the opportunity to get people to question. Especially some that are woke, authority compliant virtue signallers.

165895 ▶▶▶▶▶ Fruitbat, replying to Country Mumkin, 1, #162 of 2011 🔗


165899 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Basics, replying to Fruitbat, 3, #163 of 2011 🔗

Nice one fruitbat. Thank you too for reminding us that not all bats are bad…

165920 ▶▶ PaulH, replying to Basics, 11, #164 of 2011 🔗

Oddly enough I haven’t heard anything from BLM regarding this cynical exploitation.

Maybe the folk who pay for them wouldn’t like this angle.

165949 ▶▶▶ Victoria, replying to PaulH, 1, #165 of 2011 🔗

Great post.

166002 ▶▶▶ mjr, replying to PaulH, 3, #166 of 2011 🔗

wrong sort of black lives.. clearly not woke enough

165810 ▶▶ annie, replying to Cecil B, 5, #168 of 2011 🔗

Watching strippers wearing full PPE and face nappies may appeal to a certain kind of kinky zombie…

165812 ▶▶▶ NorthumbrianNomad, replying to annie, 13, #169 of 2011 🔗

Full nudity is back in Thailand. The masks are the first thing that comes off. It’s quite artistic. Added bonus: no drunken tourists.

I thought of a punchline by the way. “I wanted a peep show, not a peepPE show!” I’ll get my coat.

165815 ▶▶▶▶ Basics, replying to NorthumbrianNomad, 4, #170 of 2011 🔗

It’s surely too early to produce such gems of wit – Masterful!

165832 ▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to NorthumbrianNomad, #171 of 2011 🔗

Heavy pun man!

165863 ▶▶▶▶ mjr, replying to NorthumbrianNomad, 1, #172 of 2011 🔗

do they have to sterilise the ping pong balls?

165910 ▶▶▶▶ CGL, replying to NorthumbrianNomad, #173 of 2011 🔗

Oh well done that man!

165809 annie, replying to annie, 15, #175 of 2011 🔗

The Covid hysteria is really helping people in less fortunate (!!?) countries. This from a pious and charitable friend:

“When I go down to church tomorrow they are threatening us with a mug of frozen soup made from all the produce we took to church the previous Sunday. This is in aid of Christian Aid which went very badly this year with no collections in the village so every church member was asked to donate £5 to help swell our offering.”

Never mind. Cancelling door-to-door collecting keeps our own zombies safe, and that’s all that matters, isn’t it?

165814 ▶▶ Basics, replying to annie, 3, #176 of 2011 🔗

Send your friend this. With my compliments. https://youtu.be/kJ0F3mgabBE

It is the antidote to self-absorbed piousness in lockdown loving friends of a charitable nature.

165831 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Basics, 2, #177 of 2011 🔗

Thank you, Basics, I will.

166065 ▶▶ Mark, replying to annie, 2, #178 of 2011 🔗

If it saves one overweight, elderly first world life…..

166807 ▶▶ Cheshirecatslave, replying to annie, #179 of 2011 🔗

We had our usual collection from the congregation to help the local foodbank.

165819 Jpeg, replying to Jpeg, 3, #180 of 2011 🔗

To be fair to Ofcom, I would think it likely that they panicked, knowing next to nothing about public health and having to suddenly assess news complaints about covid, and just picked a standard they could measure themselves against. Maybe I’m wrong. In any case, at this point in the pandemic as scepticism becomes more mainstream and it is clear that the science is far from settled, there should be some sort of review.

165864 ▶▶ Julian, replying to Jpeg, 7, #181 of 2011 🔗

I think this illustrates the inherent problem with deciding censorship, even with the most benign intentions, is acceptable

165822 Nic, replying to Nic, 13, #182 of 2011 🔗

Great to see Trump up and about .
Brazil is a large country with a big population which has just let corona rip , as our useless PM Might describe.
I look at Brazil graphs on World OMETER , iv said this before. death rates and infections have been falling for 2 months.
I’m not good at maths , but the way I see it it could well be over there by january.
Notice MSM doesent mention brazil much i wonder why.

165830 ▶▶ Tom Blackburn, replying to Nic, 8, #183 of 2011 🔗

As an aside – ‘Let rip’ is a new one that has sneaked into popular use, isn’t it? Suggests damage.

165885 ▶▶▶ Basics, replying to Tom Blackburn, 7, #184 of 2011 🔗

Yes it is and it does. Briefed by nudge unit is my assumption. Too many talking heads/experts/quacks came out with the phrase “letting it rip through” society for it to be coincidence – it’s launch complemented the bill and ben graph. The phrase was used by a good handful of them within hours of each other.

Behavioural Insights Team need to be part of the reckoning.

166098 ▶▶ Silke David, replying to Nic, 1, #185 of 2011 🔗

Funny, I was wondering about Brazil this morning and how they get on.

165828 JohnMac, replying to JohnMac, #186 of 2011 🔗

How I load a picture?

165862 ▶▶ Julian, replying to JohnMac, 1, #187 of 2011 🔗

You need to be logged in, then you’ll get a little icon to the bottom right

166584 ▶▶▶ JohnMac, replying to Julian, #188 of 2011 🔗


165836 Colin, replying to Colin, 78, #189 of 2011 🔗

Regardless of what you think of the man, the fact that Donald Trump is broadcasting from his hospital sitting at a desk wearing a suit, rather than lying in a bed and filled with tubes, is a MAJOR blow to the bedwetters. This doesn’t match their scenario. If he recovers fully it will also be a blow for Biden and his masks, but that’s another story.

165838 ▶▶ Nic, replying to Colin, 20, #190 of 2011 🔗

Agree this is fantastic news let’s hope hes back on the campaign trail soon

165839 ▶▶ PhilipF, replying to Colin, 13, #191 of 2011 🔗

Agree that a quick recovery is helpful in terms of showing that even the “most vulnerable” have low chance of serious suffering, but it will be said (is being said constantly) that he got it because of not wearing a mask.

165893 ▶▶▶ BeBopRockSteady, replying to PhilipF, 10, #192 of 2011 🔗

That’s just their last line of reasoning. As the Guardian ironically showed yesterday, others in his group that caught it did wear masks.

165906 ▶▶▶▶ Ned of the Hills, replying to BeBopRockSteady, 2, #193 of 2011 🔗

A better key to this is needed.

It looks to me as only those highlighted in red tested positive- five altogether. Only one of whom was wearing a mask.

But I can only count six people altogether wearing a mask* – out of what? nigh on a hundred people?

So one out of six mask wearers were infected. (17%)

As opposed to four out 80+ non-mask wearers. (5% or less)

But, of course, not all those tested positive have probably been identified,

What an excellent opportunity to test the thesis that masks work!

*There’s two way at the back.

166813 ▶▶▶▶ Cheshirecatslave, replying to BeBopRockSteady, 1, #194 of 2011 🔗

I’m sceptical he really caught it at that outdoor gathering as he and his entourage attended a lot of events such as dinners and he was a good distance from the people he was giving a speech to

165904 ▶▶ mhcp, replying to Colin, 5, #195 of 2011 🔗

You could argue, using the twisted logic around us, that this shows it takes about 6 months of non-mask wearing to get the virus. Since Trump hasn’t been wearing a mask for the majority of that time.

165982 ▶▶ stewart, replying to Colin, 8, #196 of 2011 🔗

If? Of course he’s going to recover.
I don’t know about you. I’m not on here pretending to believe covid isn’t particularly dangerous. I really do believe it and don’t expect for one minute this will be much worse than a flu for him. Especially given the the platoon of medical staff dedicated to keeping him healthy.

166102 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Colin, 6, #197 of 2011 🔗

Democrats are circulating on SM a *horrible* meme of Democrat leaders surrounding an open coffin in which Trump lies – showing their true colours?

166484 ▶▶▶ BeBopRockSteady, replying to Carrie, 7, #198 of 2011 🔗

Some of the testimonials I’ve seen on SM are insane. One lady wore a mask to the Presidential Debate and has now tested positive. She blames Trump. Maybe she could recognise theat she attended an event with a large number of people and it was her choice.

No self accountability anymore

165841 PastImperfect, replying to PastImperfect, 14, #199 of 2011 🔗

New England Journal of Medicine wants mandatory vaccination


The paper proclaims that “noncompliance should incur a penalty” and notes that it should be a “relatively substantial” one.
It suggests that “employment suspension or stay-at-home orders,” should be issued, but that fines should be discouraged because they can be legally challenged, and “may stoke distrust without improving uptake.”
The paper also suggests that government health authorities should avoid making public their close relationship with vaccine manufacturers, to quell public mistrust.

165854 ▶▶ annie, replying to PastImperfect, 6, #200 of 2011 🔗

That relationship will be made public all right. Not by lying governments, but by others.

165878 ▶▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to annie, 3, #201 of 2011 🔗

Who will be called conspiracy theorists and ignored.

166325 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Saved To Death, 2, #202 of 2011 🔗

To a far lesser degree nowadays. I wonder why … ?

165883 ▶▶ BeBopRockSteady, replying to PastImperfect, 4, #203 of 2011 🔗


165843 PaulH, replying to PaulH, 20, #204 of 2011 🔗

“Why did Boris take the predictions of this serial doom-monger so seriously?”

Perhaps because it suited the globalist oligarchs who pull his strings.

And because he is a follower, not a leader.

166047 ▶▶ Mark, replying to PaulH, 2, #205 of 2011 🔗

Perhaps because it suited the globalist oligarchs who pull his strings .”

Not imo, though I suppose it’s possible depending what you mean by “pull his strings”. Much more likely imo that he’s a cowardly politician with no moral fibre and he panicked because he thought he might get blamed for lots of people dying.

166147 ▶▶▶ PaulH, replying to Mark, 2, #206 of 2011 🔗

“Much more likely imo that he’s a cowardly politician with no moral fibre…”

You could be right; that is always possible. But it is rather worrying when it is our “best case scenario”.

165847 smileymiley, replying to smileymiley, 5, #207 of 2011 🔗
165851 ▶▶ BeBopRockSteady, replying to smileymiley, #208 of 2011 🔗

Excellent. Puts the hospital numbers into sharp perspective.

165852 takeme, 2, #209 of 2011 🔗

Excellent artwork, above, by Galina Gardiner. So true!

165853 JohnMac, replying to JohnMac, 5, #210 of 2011 🔗
165856 ▶▶ JohnMac, replying to JohnMac, 2, #211 of 2011 🔗

Right, now can someone tell me the provenance of the above figure, posted yesterday by Tim Bidie?

Because without knowing its validity it’s not going to convince people. If we know it is real, however, then it ought to be very useful indeed (especially if you re-do it all in black and white, and ask which is 2020? How would they know?)

So where did it come from?

165913 ▶▶▶ Sophie123, replying to JohnMac, #212 of 2011 🔗

those are US codes, no? So CDC maybe?

165918 ▶▶▶▶ JohnMac, replying to Sophie123, #213 of 2011 🔗

It’s a start! Perhaps Tim will come on and tell us?

165919 ▶▶▶▶ Sophie123, replying to Sophie123, 1, #214 of 2011 🔗

Actually no. Numbers too small. U.K. So ONS? You can download into excel from their website

166592 ▶▶▶ djaustin, replying to JohnMac, 1, #216 of 2011 🔗

The 2020 numbers bear little relation to all-cause mortality. The reason is the COVID19 mortality has a separate ICD code for death. The small blue bump indicates some additional deaths, but the ONS number will be much higher

165880 ▶▶ bucky99, replying to JohnMac, 4, #217 of 2011 🔗

Assume this includes ‘with Covid’ numbers for this year?

Also, this would appear to show that fewer social interactions reduce the spread of respiratory disease?

And masks have done f*ck all.

165884 ▶▶▶ JohnMac, replying to bucky99, 3, #218 of 2011 🔗

I assume this is for all respiratory diseases.

It was posted yesterday on this site and looks excellent. I just want to know where it comes from because it could be really useful. In one picture you can see that this is not a special virus.

165858 Country Mumkin, replying to Country Mumkin, 17, #219 of 2011 🔗

Has anyone else had that burning feeling since the renewal of the Coronavirus Act, that the window of opportunity is closing? That we really only have a few months to turn this thing around before things get really awful? And potentially irreparable?

I feel mentally clearer now we have strong indications of govt strategy ie suppress virus until vax (which will probably be enforced vax).

I also feel we have been logical and rational evaluating the data (tests, numbers, trends) and people’s attitudes and behaviours.

But now I feel a strong urge to do something practical to help. Something that will make a tangible difference. Like some of the fantastic lawyers are doing and the brave doctors speaking out.

What is the mood here? Do you feel similar?

165860 ▶▶ takeme, replying to Country Mumkin, 1, #220 of 2011 🔗

Hancock has already stated in the Commons that UKgov’s strategy is to suppress the virus until a vaccine is rolled out.

165861 ▶▶ Poppy, replying to Country Mumkin, 18, #221 of 2011 🔗

I’d love to do something tangible to help, but what? I have no platform and I don’t live in London so I can’t attend the protests. Other than informing everyone I know of the data, sceptical views etc., I feel like I’m pissing into the wind.

165869 ▶▶▶ Basics, replying to Poppy, 3, #222 of 2011 🔗

I believe this is the new bench mark. Perhaps there is something you can see in it that may inspire you to action.

Get it to political people – parties, politicians? You’ll know better than I.


Crimes against humanity.

If qr codes is the new fad why not create qr codes and post them up?

165965 ▶▶▶▶ Sarigan, replying to Basics, 2, #223 of 2011 🔗

QR codes that point to sceptical sites or videos could be a good idea. Something like ‘For up to date Covid information, please scan’

166087 ▶▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Sarigan, 1, #224 of 2011 🔗

Good idea – and people will of course be more likely to scan if the description looks as ‘neutral’ as possible..

166290 ▶▶▶▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to Sarigan, 1, #225 of 2011 🔗

that’s an amazing idea. I feel strongly we need a space above the line for actionable ideas now. I have drafted out a few, I’ll add that one in if that’s ok….I’m going to send my ideas below the line and then send them to Toby too.

165870 ▶▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to Poppy, 7, #226 of 2011 🔗

I’ve had a few ideas I’ve been mulling over. I’ll write them up later and post them here.

I think it could be local and practical. For the reasons you say. I’m even thinking small scale. Loads and loads of small scale = large.

I think we need parallel activity to support ongoing talks about data, stats etc.

Will write up ideas and post here later on.


165959 ▶▶▶▶ takeme, replying to Country Mumkin, #227 of 2011 🔗

Interested to hear about your ideas

165873 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to Poppy, 1, #228 of 2011 🔗

Join the crowd. Once again, I am reminded of a short sci-fi horror story that I read as a child – entitled, ‘I have no mouth and I must scream’.

165874 ▶▶▶ takeme, replying to Poppy, 10, #229 of 2011 🔗

It can be frustrating not knowing how we can move forward. As good as this site is with its excellent editorial content, the comments section can sometime feel like you are yelling into an echo chamber!
Best action, if you can’t attend demos, is to post truths on forums and social media, and try to educate friends and family without appearing to be a conspiracy theorist!
Slow and steady wins the race.

166334 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Poppy, #230 of 2011 🔗

Local KBF group ? Leafleting/fly posting ? (There are also trains to London now I hear. 🙂 ).

165872 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Country Mumkin, 9, #231 of 2011 🔗

Things ARE already awful. Much of the worst has been hidden by lack of media coverage plus the temporarily positive, but long-term terrible destructive, furlough scheme.

165889 ▶▶ Charlie Blue, replying to Country Mumkin, 9, #232 of 2011 🔗

Yes, I think I feel similarly. I’m not sure the Coronavirus Act makes too much difference in real-life terms because my understanding is that the 1984 Public Health Act gives Hancock the powers to do as he wishes on any case, but it felt significant symbolically. After 6 months it feels as if the dogma is so strong that nothing will break through.

While I know people in real life who are sceptically inclined, most of them have just switched off from any debate and don’t want to think about the reality because they are exhausted with it all. I feel exhausted too, but that makes me more determined not to be battered into submission. I just hope that enough people are waking up now to swell the sceptic ranks. I don’t accept that it will ever be too late but it is harder than ever to hang on to hope.

165890 ▶▶ bucky99, replying to Country Mumkin, 4, #233 of 2011 🔗

Very much hoping that there will be some success through the Simon Dolan case… other than that, not much more than local law-breaking of the nonsense groups of six.

165912 ▶▶ PaulH, replying to Country Mumkin, 12, #234 of 2011 🔗

Yes, it is obvious what the plan is. Keep the country on its knees with continual fear porn until the vaccine and “health passports” are ready.

Then it will be the vaccine to “liberate” you from the muzzles and other restrictions and the “health passport” to “unlock international travel” and help you “safely return to work and leisure”.

They will hope that no one notices that we could go back to normal tomorrow with negligible risk, no technocratic “solutions” required.

And you are right, the time to avoid this dystopian future is now short. Action is needed – both legal and local.

166097 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to PaulH, #235 of 2011 🔗

EU plan for ‘commission proposal for ‘common vaccine passport’ is 2022 : https://ec.europa.eu/health/sites/health/files/vaccination/docs/2019-2022_roadmap_en.pdf

166805 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Carrie, #236 of 2011 🔗

Surely nobody can pretend there’s no conspiracy after seeing that?!

165938 ▶▶ Jay Berger, replying to Country Mumkin, 12, #237 of 2011 🔗

Taking every crackdown, ignorance of exemption, damage to businesses etc. to court is now vital.
Sueing givernments on the basis of the big picture is too: PCR tests (unsuitable, need to be standardised reg. swab, test, lab, cycles etc.), mandatory masks and vaccines contravening the Nuremberg code, locking up healthy people etc..

In Germany, a movement (Freiheitsboten) is gaining ground, where people organize in local groups to distribute leaflets that challenge government policies and narratives and provide links to the sceptical case, so that people are at least made aware that one exists and so that they can begin to research it.
This is necessary to circumvene the censorship and ignorance by the
MSM and a good, if not the only way, to achieve just that.
Maybe worth copying in the UK too!

165976 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Jay Berger, 9, #238 of 2011 🔗

Also I think people should be more proactive for instance parents and employees holding the schools and workplaces responsible should their children or they suffer from any health problems as a result of “safety” policies such as social distancing and mandatory muzzling.

Boycotting and challenging shops, restaurants, museums, leisure centres that zealously enforce guidance on masks, social distancing, T&Ts. Threaten to take them to court for discriminating against people with disabilities and long terms health issues.

We maybe powerless but there are other things we can do. As one supermarket advert says, every little helps.

166247 ▶▶ Gracie Knoll, replying to Country Mumkin, 4, #239 of 2011 🔗

The COMPULSORY VAX is the next stage of the Agenda.

I posted yesterday about one way to tackle this; use the public obsession with SAFETYISM in reverse.

Ask your brainwashed friends and relatives the following:

• Thorough SAFETY tests on a new Vax can take up to 10 years. This one will be rushed through in 6-12 months. Does that make you feel SAFE?
• The Vax will be unlicensed. Does that make you feel SAFE?
• Manufacturers are to be granted Govt exemption for any death, paralysis, brain damage or autoimmune disease caused by this rushed-through unlicensed Vax. Does that sound like a SAFE Vax to you?
• Kids have a 99.999% chance of recovery (CDC latest estimates) if they catch the virus. The SAFETY of this new Vax for kids is UNKNOWN. Remember Thalidomide? How SAFE do you feel about your kids being shot up with this stuff, considering they are almost at ZERO risk from the virus itself?
• Overall this Vax will be nothing less than “injectable Russian roulette”. How SAFE is that?

IOW the public’s obsession with SAFETY – deliberately engineered to encourage compliance with the narrative – can be used in reverse to challenge the narrative. Are people more frightened of the Vax than the virus? If not, they should be.

167567 ▶▶ H K, replying to Country Mumkin, #240 of 2011 🔗

The only think I can realistically do is share info on my social media, write to my MP, sign up to various activist groups that are fighting this authoritarianism and attend rallies in London.

165865 Josephine K, replying to Josephine K, 38, #241 of 2011 🔗

I’m not a s scientist, so maybe I’ve misunderstood but if breathing out is ridding the lungs of stuff my body doesn’t want, isn’t wearing a mask that keeps even a bit of the stuff next to my mouth and nose so I breathe it back in, the respiratory equivalent of drinking urine or eating poo? They are all waste products aren’t they?

165876 ▶▶ l835, replying to Josephine K, 6, #242 of 2011 🔗

Correct. But the masks don’t really work and let most stuff, including viruses escape.

165877 ▶▶ JohnMac, replying to Josephine K, 12, #243 of 2011 🔗

Masks are associated with problems if used for extended periods. Against which they seem to have little positive purpose except to screen people nearby from coughing or sneezing, in which case one should be at home anyway.

From a SAGE document (in other words a government document):

Neither surgical masks nor face coverings are designed for use for extended periods … Masks will become highly contaminated with upper respiratory tract and skin micro-organisms.


In other words, yes, you’re right.

166084 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to JohnMac, 1, #244 of 2011 🔗

That quote needs to be spread widely on SM!

165902 ▶▶ Colin, replying to Josephine K, 9, #245 of 2011 🔗

A new study published in France « boasts » that masks may be promoting immunity through « variolisation » – the primitive vaccination method that consisted in inserting pus from a smallpox pustule into a cut in the skin. (It worked, but 1 in 10 died). This is basically an admission that masks are a cesspit on the face that continually reinfects the wearer.

165911 ▶▶ alw, replying to Josephine K, 1, #246 of 2011 🔗


165932 ▶▶ Lucan Grey, replying to Josephine K, 7, #247 of 2011 🔗

If you’re slightly infected (having picked up an infection due to the many periods you’re not wearing a mask), then wearing a mask will mean you breathe in all the viral shedding that happens to be electrostatically attached to the mask rather than everybody else.

From mouth to nose for example.

You will therefore have more virus particles in your body than you otherwise would have. And that will continue exponentially while you wear the mask.

What effect that has given you are already infected to the level of producing viral shedding we don’t know.

But the underlying assumption of mask fans is that this makes no difference.

165950 ▶▶ Jay Berger, replying to Josephine K, 25, #248 of 2011 🔗

A German pediatrician has made a video where he explains that the ‘Totvolumen’ of a mask is a particular problem and danger when children are made to wear them.
A baby would die after 3 minutes of wearing a mask, because it would basucally just inhaled its exhaled air, as its lung’s power is still very weak too.
The problem and danger reduces with age and growth, but it never disappears.
Masks are medically harmful.
Masks for children are a crime, they are child abuse!

165867 mjr, replying to mjr, 25, #249 of 2011 🔗

London Marathon

BBC currently showing the London Marathon (lockdown version).
Always a big event for BBC. I wonder how much money they are putting into it. No mass runners. Just the elite runners. 1.3 mile circuit. Nobody watching. And lousy weather

So a dismal and expensive BBC promotion of the elite running around in circles with no support.

What does that remind me off?

166038 ▶▶ kf99, replying to mjr, 1, #250 of 2011 🔗

They’re desperate for world records to create interest. The weather should kill that idea.

Nice to hear Andrew Cotter getting some work again, the only commentator left with a sense of humour. Would like to think he’s a bit of a sceptic

166046 ▶▶ bluemoon, replying to mjr, 1, #251 of 2011 🔗

I was amused by the commentary – broadcasting across an empty site to nobody except stewards and cardboard cutouts.
Love the analogy!

165871 wat tyler, replying to wat tyler, 2, #252 of 2011 🔗

Hi Again i asked yesterday if anyone knew where the link was to the posters for shops which said NO MASK WE DON’T ASK .There was a link to print them off a few weeks back .Can anyone help i know people who wan’t to print them off and take round the shops .

165929 ▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to wat tyler, 1, #253 of 2011 🔗

They might be in Simon Dolans website. Absolutely great idea to do that. 😊

166123 ▶▶▶ wat tyler, replying to Country Mumkin, #254 of 2011 🔗

Thank you i will have a look .

165875 Basics, 2, #255 of 2011 🔗

Corona graphs for the visually impaired. Have you ever heard what a graph sounds like? Now’s your chance!

Scroll down to the graphs and click the sound icon. Sit back and listen.


I can only feel that this must cause extreme alarm in anyone listening. But I am not an expert in listening to graphed data.

Scottish data. 8% case fatality rate seems questionable.

165879 camjws, replying to camjws, #256 of 2011 🔗

Typo I think.., Ferguson predicted BSE would kill 50,000 people not Foot & Mouth.
He was involved in bad predictions for F&M too but it kills cattle not humans.

165891 ▶▶ Ovis, replying to camjws, 4, #257 of 2011 🔗

I think it’s the bolt gun that kills the cattle, not the foot and mouth, even if they have actually got it.

165903 ▶▶▶ camjws, replying to Ovis, #258 of 2011 🔗

I stand corrected!

165944 ▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to camjws, -6, #259 of 2011 🔗

No, he didn’t. He predicted that over the next 80 years, the number of deaths caused by vCJD (the human form of BSE) was likely to be between 100 and 1000, with a 95% confidence interval from 50 to 50,000. In fact, after 20 years it has been just under 200.

Of course the media reported only the highest figure. But as I said elsewhere, Prof. Ferguson is at least entitled to be criticised for what he said or did, rather than for what he didn’t do or say.

166830 ▶▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to Richard Pinch, #260 of 2011 🔗

A prediction quite properly heavily caveated

‘Although the risk analysis presented here incorporates a wide
variety of available information into a single integrated framework,
its reliability depends on the quality and volume of data available for
parameter estimation. The limited data highlight the need for
further studies…..’

‘Given the uncertainty regarding the presence of BSE
in the British sheep flock, such large-scale testing is a priority.’


Did he add similar extensive caveats to his coronavirus modelling outcomes regarding available data?

Whether he did or not, and separately, the PCR test cycling controversy is not going away…….yet more junk data……..

165881 Caroline Watson, replying to Caroline Watson, 4, #261 of 2011 🔗

FMD didn’t kill any people. From what I remember the only person who died unintentionally during FMD was a slaughterman who was shot with a captive bolt pistol; I can’t remember whether it was a deliberate killing or an accident.
FMD is an economic plague and the desired outcomes are totally different to those of a human epidemic. Herds and flocks were slaughtered to stop herd immunity; if FMD antibodies had developed in the National Beef Herd, British beef would have lost its value on the export market. For the same reason, although we had a vaccine, it wasn’t used.
FMD did, of course, cause a lockdown of rural areas, particularly in the North, which is similar to the current situation and, whilst farmers received compensation, other rural businesses, such as hotels and restaurants, did not. The effect on the mental health of rural people was devastating, particularly in Cumbria, and deaths undoubtedly happened as a result.
No one, however, died of zoonotic FMD.

165882 ▶▶ camjws, replying to Caroline Watson, 1, #262 of 2011 🔗

I think they meant BSE…

165915 ▶▶▶ bucky99, replying to camjws, 1, #263 of 2011 🔗

Yep, I seem to remember similar figures relating to that, which probably caused even worse impacts to the farming economy.

166818 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Caroline Watson, #264 of 2011 🔗

After the F&M cull, a lot of small farms went under and were swallowed up by Big Ag.

172414 ▶▶▶ Caroline Watson, replying to Cheezilla, #265 of 2011 🔗

It also vastly reduced the stocking levels on the hills, which have never been replaced.

165900 Jonathan Tedd, replying to Jonathan Tedd, 2, #266 of 2011 🔗

A Point of View on Radio 4 just now ends with the woman (works in academia) “Wear a mask – it’s the least we can do”

165927 ▶▶ Lucan Grey, replying to Jonathan Tedd, 7, #267 of 2011 🔗

“- it’s completely ineffective due to network effects, but it makes the gullible feel better, and since they respond better to marketing messages they’ll spend more in the shops and keep you employed”

166150 ▶▶ takeme, replying to Jonathan Tedd, 2, #268 of 2011 🔗

Either genuine fear, or pure virtue signalling

166562 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Jonathan Tedd, #269 of 2011 🔗

Name is always useful, Jonathon.

166822 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Jonathan Tedd, #270 of 2011 🔗

Seems to be the latest mantra.

165907 PompeyJunglist, replying to PompeyJunglist, 12, #271 of 2011 🔗

I’ve an idea for a demonstration format, but it would take a lot of organisation and I’m not sure if the impact would be as I imagine.

Instead of congregating in one area, each protestor would be assigned a specific street corner in London. They would stand alone with one of perhaps just two or three types of placards to ensure the message is simple, strong and oft repeated.

Just a few thousand people could cover a significant area, so instead of being pigeon holed away and out of sight, the rebellion is shown to be strong and broad.

I suspect it would be quite powerful on the ground, if one was walking for any distance through such an area. My concern is the ability of such a protest style to garner much in the way of media traction. We do need to think outside the box in these times though.


165933 ▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to PompeyJunglist, 5, #272 of 2011 🔗

I think it’s great. I could def work in rural villages too.

I totally agree we need to think outside the box.

Earlier post says I’ll send round some ideas. I’m going to put yours on the list.

Maybe Toby will create a section above called “ideas for action” (or something more editorially pleasing) and we can take from that list that which we feel we can do, within our own locations and abilities.

CM x

165974 ▶▶▶ Ovis, replying to Country Mumkin, 1, #273 of 2011 🔗

Unkettlable, but would take a lot of coordination. Coordination needs nameable ‘ring leaders.’ Who is going to be General Ludd?

165984 ▶▶▶▶ Andy Riley, replying to Ovis, 2, #274 of 2011 🔗

Perhaps we can learn from Extinction Rebellion. They seem to have distributed and collective ways of organising that makes it hard to identify “leaders”

166365 ▶▶▶▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to Andy Riley, 1, #275 of 2011 🔗

I think distributed sounds good. We need to lead ourselves so we don’t rely on others for decisions and responsibility. We can do it ourselves in our own way, locally.

166368 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to Country Mumkin, #276 of 2011 🔗

That sounds like I’m a proper libertarian and I voted Jeremy Corbyn at the last election. How funny that none of that matters!

165988 ▶▶ PastImperfect, replying to PompeyJunglist, 4, #277 of 2011 🔗

Don’t do it alone. An accomplice should be lurking to ensure the person is safe and should be able to call for help if needed.

Instead of just standing about perhaps a group could systematically patrol a town centre, for instance, while remaining within sight of the person in front.

165991 ▶▶▶ Ovis, replying to PastImperfect, #278 of 2011 🔗

A bit like a beacon system. Sounds good. Largely avoids the need for central coordination. No incriminating lists or annotated maps.

166079 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Ovis, 3, #279 of 2011 🔗

If you do it, those involved should maybe avoid using smartphones and use old ‘bricks’ instead? So they are a bit harder to trace…

166825 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to PastImperfect, #280 of 2011 🔗

Groups of 6.

166011 ▶▶ PastImperfect, replying to PompeyJunglist, 3, #281 of 2011 🔗

Another point, how do we contact like-minded people in our local area? We have made several attempts to find people in our vicinity without success. Perhaps Toby might consider providing an area in LS where meeting points and times could be suggested for various towns so that initial contacts could be made.

166100 ▶▶▶ GiftWrappedKittyCat, replying to PastImperfect, #282 of 2011 🔗

There is a section in the forums part of this site for that purpose but unfortunately it isn’t widely used. Maybe Toby or other admins could give it a plug?

166358 ▶▶▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to GiftWrappedKittyCat, 1, #283 of 2011 🔗

It feels like We are moving into a new phase. I’m not saying I’m not interested in the data or the chat, I am, but I also want to do something.

166168 ▶▶▶ takeme, replying to PastImperfect, 3, #284 of 2011 🔗

Don’t forget, no more than 6 of you can meet. How convenient!
Perhaps initial meetings might instead be virtual ones – on zoom, skype, etc

166572 ▶▶▶▶ PastImperfect, replying to takeme, 1, #285 of 2011 🔗

I think it best to be anonymous until bona fides have been established. Meeting outside a coffee shop with your exempt card in hand around 11am on a Saturday might be one possibility.

166355 ▶▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to PastImperfect, #286 of 2011 🔗

See above my “ideas” list. A survey may work for this.

166563 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to PastImperfect, #287 of 2011 🔗

Have you tried the KBF website ?

166142 ▶▶ Silke David, replying to PompeyJunglist, 1, #288 of 2011 🔗

Querdenken in Germany have lots of local groups holding demos almost every week. Bodo and Samuel are travelling the country in a bus, stopping in smaller towns , trying to get people into one to one conversations, Freiheitsboten very important. My perception is that people do not believe local lockdowns have an impact, s we should start there, as they affect social and local economy. Provide a link to an e- mail text people can send to their local councillor, with the addresses provided, mp, paper etc. They do not want to do the work, but are fed up enough to press a few buttons on their beloved smartphone. I’m not technically savy.

165917 TJS123, replying to TJS123, 9, #290 of 2011 🔗

Excellent interview on Andrew Marr with Fraser from the Spectator. Hopefully people will listen. Can’t get it from surfaces, numbers inaccurate..everything we’ve been saying.

166073 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to TJS123, 2, #291 of 2011 🔗

How come (from what you say) Andrew Marr let Fraser talk, but did not challenge BJ regarding that ‘this is the only way’?
I can’t watch UK TV from here…

165921 mattghg, replying to mattghg, 1, #292 of 2011 🔗

I shared Andrew Neil’s interview with Sunetra Gupta on Facebook and someone responded by saying that she’s discredited since she said that we may already have herd immunity in July. I think he’s just jumping on the headline without considering the nuance of what she actually said, but can anyone suggest a more thorough response?

165923 ▶▶ Lucan Grey, replying to mattghg, 15, #293 of 2011 🔗

How about since masks were introduced in July cases have shot through the roof. Therefore masks must be causing the case increase. If we hadn’t bothered then things would be so much better now.

That’s the line they use in reverse. It’s similarly non-falsifiable.

165946 ▶▶▶ arfurmo, replying to Lucan Grey, 1, #294 of 2011 🔗

That’s the problem -deaths so far x (let’s not get into with/from here) but the MSM will tout that without lockdown it would have been y (y>x) and without muzzles z (z>x) .

165934 ▶▶ Basics, replying to mattghg, 4, #295 of 2011 🔗

Not me. However having a dashed bash, – T cells cover a proportion of the population by being cross reactive from previous viral ocurrances. The figure might be say 30% already have T Cell immunity and so only 15-25% of the population need to gain immunity to a new virus and herd immunity is achieved.

Note Devi Sridhar has put quite a body of work together in press and broadcast dismissing the concept of herd immunity *crucially* until a vaccine is found – only then herd immunity is okay by Devi. I mention this since her spoutings are likely to be the argument you encounter against herd immunity. Easy to research.

166836 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Basics, #296 of 2011 🔗

That woman should be permanently gagged!

165943 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to mattghg, 2, #297 of 2011 🔗

Do the BLM reponse, “read an book and educate yourself!”.

165951 ▶▶ Caramel, replying to mattghg, 3, #298 of 2011 🔗

Deaths in the UK peaked in April. Herd immunity doesn’t mean no cases.

165957 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to mattghg, 2, #299 of 2011 🔗

It is an old trick to say someone is discredited – don’t fall for it

165993 ▶▶ matt, replying to mattghg, 7, #300 of 2011 🔗

That’s not what she actually said. The model she proposed in March was explicitly intended to be an alternative plausible scenario to the Ferguson Imperial worst case scenario. Ferguson produced a model that worked on the basis that nobody had any degree of immunity; Gupta’s was a counterpoint that said it was also possible that many people had some degree of immunity. Gupta’s model has proved to be closer to reality than Ferguson’s.

It’s also an odd use of the word ‘discredited’. She’s far from discredited in academic circles – she is highly respected, in fact. The press have chosen to present her as controversial, but that’s not the same thing.

166036 ▶▶ Nobody2020, replying to mattghg, #301 of 2011 🔗

There are different levels of “herd immunity”. Usually when people talk about it they think of the theoretical level whereby the virus can no longer spread via natural or vaccine induced immunity.

However artificial “herd immunity” can be achieved using a combination of immunity and NPI, such as social distancing. If some sort of threshold is not reached then any disease would just carry on infecting people until everyone in the world is infected and this clearly does not happen.

165928 PhilipF, replying to PhilipF, 12, #302 of 2011 🔗

I was shocked by the report listed in yesterday’s LS about the success criteria for the vaccines under development being very low, i.e. just mitigates symptoms.This seems like a crucial and huge story. I have no problem with well tested vaccines against significant diseases, but why should billions be spent on something not much more than a placebo? And how can something with such marginal benefits be made, de facto, compulsory?

In my opinion, the other big story that hasn’t had any significant reporting yet is the colossal squandering of public money that is occurring. The state has always found it easy to spend Other Peoples’ Money”, but what is happening now is criminal. There seems to be no regard now for looking after tax payers’ money.
A couple of examples:

  • the billions being hosed at companies in bounce back loans without any regard for credit worthiness (or need). The opportunities for fraud are legion and much will never be paid back
  • the £100bn for the lunatic “moonshot” mass testing idea. How is that this government of charlatans, who couldn’t make it as Apprentice candidates, have the ability to spend such money without any restraint?

So far they have been able to get away with it because of a compliant Bank of England’s money printing and a compliant bond market. It’s all fine until it isn’t. Financial disaster is inevitable.

165967 ▶▶ Saved To Death, replying to PhilipF, 8, #303 of 2011 🔗

and still the majority continue to obey and co-operate in their own total destruction.

165979 ▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to PhilipF, #304 of 2011 🔗

I was shocked by the report listed in yesterday’s LS about the success criteria for the vaccines under development being very low, i.e. just mitigates symptoms.This seems like a crucial and huge story.

It’s a good rule of thumb that when a story like this seems shocking, it bears further investigation. This is what I posted here yesterday

“These vaccine trials are testing to prevent common cold symptoms.”

That seems to me a misleading way of putting it. As to the purpose of the trials. I suppose that we might agree that the ultimate goal of any intervention (behavioural, drugs or vaccines) is to reduce as far as possible (and balancing benefits with costs) illness and death caused by this virus. A good way of doing this is by reducing infections, and in particular bringing the rate of infection down to the point where it does not spread in the population, and this is what behavioural measures are intended to do. It is therefore reasonable to make a goal of a vaccine that it should prevent the subject from becoming ill if they encounter the disease. It is also reasonable to make it a goal that it should make the subject non-infectious. But these are different, and the first is more important.
So I looked at one of the trial documents . Under primary objective number 1 we find

To estimate the efficacy of 2 IM doses of AZD1222 compared to placebo for the prevention of COVID-19 in adults ≥ 18 years of age


The primary efficacy endpoint is a binary response, whereby a participant is defined as a COVID-19 case if their first case of SARS-CoV-2 RT-PCR-positive symptomatic illness occurs ≥ 15 days post second dose of study

So the vaccination is deemed to have failed if the patient develops any symptom of Covid. In other words the criterion for success is that it should prevent any symptoms, even those as minor as those of the common cold. That sounds to me like we want from a vaccine: that it reduces the seriousness of the disease to less than that of the common cold.

166042 ▶▶▶ Victoria, replying to Richard Pinch, 4, #305 of 2011 🔗

In other words the criterion for success is that it should prevent any symptoms, even those as minor as those of the common cold. That sounds to me like we want from a vaccine: that it reduces the seriousness of the disease to less than that of the common cold.

Unless a vaccine can prevent the illness it is not worth taking it. Immune systems are there to fight viruses, bacteria and pathogens. Improve immune systems!

Every year after receiving the flu jab many people complain that they got the flu with very bad symptoms and some of them say never again.

166205 ▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to Victoria, -2, #306 of 2011 🔗

Unless a vaccine can prevent the illness it is not worth taking it.

I’m not sure that’s the majority view. Reducing the severity of a potentially disease to less than that of a common cold seems a perfectly worthwhile thing to aim for.

166837 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheshirecatslave, replying to Richard Pinch, #307 of 2011 🔗

An elderly aunt stayed with her son and his family one Christmas. They all caught flu , she only had cold symtoms, though, most likely as she was the only vaccinated member of the family. She was up and about while they were confined to bed and very glad she was not as ill as the rest of the family.

166841 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Richard Pinch, 1, #308 of 2011 🔗

Not when 99/8% of the population only get symptoms equivalent to those of the common cold in the first place!

166872 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to Cheezilla, #309 of 2011 🔗

Er, some 50,000 people have died of this disease. If — and I say if — there had been a vaccine that reduced their symptoms from “death” to “less than the common cold”, are you saying that would not have been worth doing?

166995 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ BJJ, replying to Richard Pinch, #310 of 2011 🔗

I´m not convinced that some 50,000 people have died of this disease. I´m also surprised that you never mention the collateral damage from the measures taken by the Government. No interest in the full picture then?

167113 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to BJJ, 1, #311 of 2011 🔗

We’re discussing vaccines in this thread, not the effects of lockdown. As to the wider picture, I’ll discuss whatever aspects of the issue I’m interested in, have some knowledge of, and feel I can contribute constructively to, thank you for asking.

167027 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to Richard Pinch, #312 of 2011 🔗

50,000 people have died of this disease?

No. 50,000 people have covid 19 mentioned on their death certificates, covid 19 not considered to be a high consequence infectious disease, but still considered to be a ‘notifiable disease’…….ahem……..

Our definition of COVID-19 includes some cases where the certifying doctor suspected the death involved COVID-19 but was not certain, for example, because no test was done. Of the 46,736 deaths with an underlying cause of COVID-19, 3,763 (8.1%) were classified as “suspected” COVID-19.’


You may consider such data reliable. I doubt many here would share that view.

167116 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to Tim Bidie, 1, #313 of 2011 🔗

Yes, I have some respect for the ONS. Others may wish to question the figures, but I have little interest in debating with people who dispute figures on the sole grounds that they don’t like the answers.

167052 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to Richard Pinch, #314 of 2011 🔗

The question is not whether it is worth doing but whether it is at all conceivably possible

Does anyone really believe that a vaccine can be created that will prevent a common cold from killing elderly and infirm, immunocompromised, patients, most over 80 years old with more than two other serious health conditions?

Clue: the word ‘immunocompromised’ may be important

The mean number of pre-existing conditions for deaths involving COVID-19 between March and June 2020 was 2.1 for those aged 0 to 69 years and 2.3 for those aged 70 years and over.’

The age group that made up the highest proportion of COVID-19 deaths in males was those aged 80 to 84 years, with this age group accounting for 21.3% of deaths in England and 20.3% of deaths in Wales.

For females, the age group that made up the highest proportion of deaths due to COVID-19 was those aged 90 years and over with 33.1% of COVID-19 deaths in England…’

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsinvolvingcovid19englandandwales/latest&nbsp ;

167129 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to Tim Bidie, #315 of 2011 🔗

Does anyone really believe that a vaccine can be created that will prevent a common cold from killing elderly and infirm, immunocompromised, patients, most over 80 years old with more than two other serious health conditions?

Clue: the word ‘immunocompromised’ may be important

Actually there are several clues in that, mainly pointing to petitio principii . Let me mention a couple. “A common cold”. Covid is not a common cold. “Immuncompromised” You know that how? If you immune system is unable to fight off an infection, it doesn’t mean you were immunocompromised.

I don’t know whether this vaccine can or cannot be created, and neither do you. Some people believe it can, clearly.

166972 ▶▶ BJJ, replying to PhilipF, 1, #316 of 2011 🔗

Well I´ve got a company that was wiped out by the lockdowns. The government offered a “loan” to pay for the damage they did to our business!!!

165931 Richard Pinch, replying to Richard Pinch, -18, #317 of 2011 🔗

In 2005, he told the Guardian that up to 200 million people could die from bird flu. The final death toll from avian flu strain A/H5N1 was 440. And in 2009, a Government estimate based on one of Ferguson’s models estimated the likely death toll from swine flu at 65,000. In fact, it was 457.

Neither of these is correct. Prof. Ferguson is at least entitled to be criticised for what he said or did, rather than for what he didn’t do or say.

In 2005, Ferguson told the Guardian that if avian flu mutated to become transmissible between humans (as opposed to only from birds to humans) then up to 200 million etc. But avian flu did not become transmissible between humans. Which is good.

And Ferguson’s swine flu estimate was explicitly intended to be a Reasonable Worst Case scenario, and as we all know, Reasonable Worst Cases are explicitly not predictions.

165937 ▶▶ mhcp, replying to Richard Pinch, 17, #318 of 2011 🔗

A reasonable worst case is one within the bounds of reality – hence the reasonable. Planning for an asteroid hit is what Ferguson’s model amounts to, which may be a remote possibility but will be moot due to implementation.

Anyone working on large-scale engineering projects has come across Reasonable Worst Case scenarios – there is a whole activity called FIT testing and FMECA dealing with how you mitigate and the impact of not catching errors.

The first thing you do is look at the inputs.

So I appreciate that you are trying to say it was a Reasonable Worst-Case but it’s not borne out by the facts.

It was an extreme prediction that doesn’t pass basic scrutiny. It’s the fact that the scutiny wasn’t done is the problem

165953 ▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to mhcp, -4, #319 of 2011 🔗

It was explicitly adopted as a RWC by SAGE 11 on 26 February. They thought that the parameters involved: r0=2.8, infective period 5 days, IFR 1% and no pre-existing immunity were reasonable assumptions at the time.

That’s all you need to get to the RWC scenario, you don’t need an elaborate agent-based model, you can do it on the back of an envelope, and I’m sure there are plenty of people of SAGE who could have, and possibly even did, do it to confirm the decision.

Let me put to you the following thought experiment. You are seated at the table at SAGE 11. Your copy of the dossier containing what little is known about the virus is in front of you. The meeting opened with the chair telling you that the PM needs the committee’s advice that afternoon. The chair turns to you and says “Suppose we just did nothing and let people get on with it. We need to know what would happen. Could the NHS cope?” How would you answer that question? I don’t mean, by the way, what answer would you give, interesting though that might be. I mean, what processes would you go through to get from what you have — the data in front of you, the resources available to you on the day, and your accumulated knowledge and experience — to answering the PM’s question the same day?

In fact, let me pose an easier version. You can have any reasonable piece of data you want about the virus, and you can assume that it’s correct — a luxury not available in the real world. Let me ask again. What do you do? What analytical or practical processes do you carry out to get you from the question to the answer sought on the day?

165971 ▶▶▶▶ JohnMac, replying to Richard Pinch, 3, #320 of 2011 🔗

“what little is known about the virus”

So he could have said, “I don’t know”.

165983 ▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to JohnMac, 1, #321 of 2011 🔗

He could indeed. Maybe he should have done. Maybe you would have done. Now what? A decision had to be made. How would you make the decision? What advise would you have asked for?

165989 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ BJJ, replying to Richard Pinch, 6, #322 of 2011 🔗

They are discussing locking down a whole country. Something never done before. I think they turned the precautionary principle on its head.

166207 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mayo, replying to BJJ, -5, #323 of 2011 🔗

As did most of Europe. So what?

166249 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Mayo, 6, #324 of 2011 🔗

So what? So their panic response has caused catastrophic costs in both lives and jobs, and in the long run will, in almost any remotely plausible scenario, cause massively more harm than the disease itself would have caused.

The precautionary principle properly applied would have resulted in rejecting the radical experiments of societal lockdown and coerced mask wearing, for (broadly) the Swedish approach of moderate, mostly voluntary distancing and shielding, and we would now have been in an infinitely better place than we are, in economic, social and cultural terms.

166279 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mayo, replying to Mark, -5, #325 of 2011 🔗

Do you imagine for one moment that the UK economy would not have suffered a significant slump even if we’d have carried on as normal.

We don’t yet know what the fallout will be. However, We do know that LS readers are just as guilty as the pro-lockdowners when it comes to making predictions of armageddon.

166316 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Mayo, 6, #326 of 2011 🔗

Sweden has suffered much less, despite being massively exposed to the stupidities of lockdowns elsewhere because of their heavy dependence on exports.

Do you imagine for one moment that the lockdowns have not imposed massively greater economic costs than not locking down could possibly have inflicted?

It is, on the other hand, perfectly possible to believe that if we had treated this as just another winter flu, advised people to wash their hands and stay at home if they are symptomatic, and used the propaganda tools the government has used to promote fear to instead shame those showing fear and to push “keep calm and carry on” as the theme, then we would have suffered almost no economic losses beyond direct healthcare costs, brief disruption from a spike in absences, and whatever was imported from panic responses around the word.

166555 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Mark, 7, #327 of 2011 🔗

Do you imagine for one moment that the lockdowns have not imposed massively greater economic costs than not locking down could possibly have inflicted?

Someone suggested recently that we could have given every vulnerable person their own Covid-secure mansion, two live-in assistants and had the RSC perform for them every evening in the grounds for less than this has cost us!

166328 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to Mayo, 3, #328 of 2011 🔗

No need to predict; simply check the National Debt figures:

Debt (public sector net debt excluding public sector banks, PSND ex) has exceeded £2 trillion for the first time; at the end of July 2020, debt was £2,004.0 billion, £227.6 billion more than at the same point last year.’


166280 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ JohnMac, replying to Mark, #329 of 2011 🔗


166256 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Jonathan Palmer, replying to Mayo, 2, #330 of 2011 🔗

Tag team now.2 of the 3 people still left in the country who think Ferguson’s 14 year old FLU model had any validity.
A false IFR based on 6 planes from China and pre supposition based on zero pre immunity which gives a different result every time it’s run because of faulty coding.

166303 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mayo, replying to Jonathan Palmer, -3, #331 of 2011 🔗

This is BS. Several sources were used to determine an initial estimate of IFR. Early WHO estimates suggested 3%.

Early in March Whitty had already made it clear that the upper bound for IFR was 1% – but could be lower,

Ferguson used 0.9% which was not unreasonable at the time. Oh, and by the way, under the UK lockdown scenario he predicted a death toll of ~40k. (R0 2.6).

Have you actually read the March 16th paper?

166331 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Mayo, 4, #332 of 2011 🔗

This is BS. Several sources were used to determine an initial estimate of IFR. Early WHO estimates suggested 3%.

And plenty of experts in relevant fields, from Wittkowski to Giesecke and plenty of others, pointed out at the time that ifr estimates always fall significantly during the course of an epidemic, for various very understandable reasons. They were right, of course. It was those standing by those high initial numbers who were assuming a “worst case” of exceptional behaviour from this virus.

166443 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mayo, replying to Mark, -4, #333 of 2011 🔗

They fell for SARS (coronavirus) from about 17% to 10%.

Stop this nonsense about “things always do this it that”. We need clear scientific reasons why something may or may not happen.

166361 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to Mayo, 4, #334 of 2011 🔗

CFR: 0.8-1%

So my thinking is this is actually not as severe a disease as is being suggested. The fatality rate is probably only 0.8%-1%. There’s a vast underreporting of cases in China. Compared to Sars and Mers we are talking about a coronavirus that has a mortality rate of 8 to 10 times less deadly to Sars to Mers. So a correct comparison is not Sars or Mers but a severe cold. Basically this is a severe form of the cold.’

University of Hong Kong 06 Feb

IFR 0.1-0.41

March 17

166716 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ TJN, replying to Mayo, 3, #335 of 2011 🔗

Have you actually read the March 16th paper?

Yes, and I had the overwhelming sense that it was essentially political rather than scientific.

I find it hard to believe that anyone used to reading scientific papers read it without feeling a high level of scepticism, and wanting to probe further to explore its limits.

Something that SAGE, the government et al. appear not to have done.

166072 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ TyRade, replying to Richard Pinch, 4, #336 of 2011 🔗

well, start with saying ‘And don’t bring me any more shock-horror gobbledegook from Ferguson – he’s got a rap sheet of Hammer Horror advice a mile long’ ?

166090 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to TyRade, -4, #337 of 2011 🔗

And next … ?

166176 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Nigel Sherratt, replying to Richard Pinch, 1, #338 of 2011 🔗

Take precautions with NHS and add extra capacity, spot peak deaths on 8th April and start winding down.

166199 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to Nigel Sherratt, -3, #339 of 2011 🔗

That’s an answer to the question “What should we do”. I’m asking the question “What analytical or practical processes do you carry out to get you from the question to the answer sought on the day?”

In particular, if you choose not to use Ferguson’smodel, do you use some other model, or do you eschew modelling altogether, and if so, what do you use to answer the question as posed?

167136 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ charleyfarley, replying to Richard Pinch, #340 of 2011 🔗

Real world data from China and Italy.

166324 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mayo, replying to Nigel Sherratt, -4, #341 of 2011 🔗

I can’t believe the naivete of this comment.

How would you know that the peak was a real nationwide peak and not just a local maximum. The virus did not spread uniformly across the country in March & April.

That’s why the North is seeing more cases than London. It’s why we are getting local outbreaks. There are still large parts of the country that have had relatively little exposure to the virus.

166568 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Seansaighdeoir, replying to Mayo, 2, #342 of 2011 🔗

Cases have no bearing on what most people understand as infections.

How many of these ‘cases’ are resulting in hospitalisations and deaths?

The PCR test is arguably not fit for purpose in determining what is really covid19 and the resulting in ‘cases’ are more likely recordings of some type of corona residue, from what it is not clear.

This process is in no way equitable to the type of ‘infections’ seen at the height of this ‘pandemic’.

166315 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to Richard Pinch, 2, #343 of 2011 🔗

The advice of an acknowledged coronavirus expert based in China during the outbreak.

There’s a vast underreporting of cases in China. Compared to Sars and Mers we are talking about a coronavirus that has a mortality rate of 8 to 10 times less deadly to Sars to Mers. So a correct comparison is not Sars or Mers but a severe cold. Basically this is a severe form of the cold.’
Prof John Nicholls Univ of HK 06 Feb

Plenty of evidence of how dangerous common cold viruses are to the elderly from a 2 minute trawl on google

Unexpectedly Higher Morbidity and Mortality of Hospitalized Elderly Patients Associated with Rhinovirus Compared with Influenza Virus Respiratory Tract Infection’

Nevertheless those responsible could still regain their reputations if they simply woke up and put together an independent public inquiry.

166204 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mayo, replying to JohnMac, -5, #344 of 2011 🔗


The Imperial model gave predictions for a range of scenarios. The most extreme being an unmitigated scenario in a population with 100% susceptibility.

Perhaps Professor Sunetra Gupta should have said she didn’t know when her team when they came up with the ridiculous scenario that over 50% of the country had already been infected in March.

166721 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ TJN, replying to Mayo, 1, #345 of 2011 🔗

I thought that 50% figure was just one of the examples they used to explore different scenarios? So your second para. also applies here?

165973 ▶▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Richard Pinch, 6, #346 of 2011 🔗

I would look at the dossier and request the specifics of the dataset that were used in the model. I would then ask why the Chinese dataset provided by as yet unknown sources was used rather than the Diamond Princess dataset that was already being studied extensively by a team in Japan in conjunction with a team at Columbia Uni.

165985 ▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to Tyneside Tigress, -5, #347 of 2011 🔗

… and then what? How would you turn that information into an answer to the question “ Suppose we just did nothing and let people get on with it. We need to know what would happen. Could the NHS cope?”

166005 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Jonathan Palmer, replying to Richard Pinch, 7, #348 of 2011 🔗

The NHS didn’t cope,because they closed it to everything else anyway

166089 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to Jonathan Palmer, -1, #349 of 2011 🔗

That’s a fair point, but not quite relevant to this discssion.

166009 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ BeBopRockSteady, replying to Richard Pinch, 1, #350 of 2011 🔗

How do you answer that question yourself now knowing what we know? Do you subscribe to the vee that without all these lockdowns on everything but name would we see hundreds of thousands dead? As Hancock does

166088 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to BeBopRockSteady, -5, #351 of 2011 🔗

Ah, that’s a different question completely. Do-nothing is not the only alternative to lockdown.

Looking at the experiences of places like Manaus and Guayaquil, I would say that for the do-nothing scenario , while the numbers would have been different, the answer would still have been correct, in that the question asked was “Could the NHS cope?”, and I think it likely that the answer would have been “No”. So, as a rough estimate, if the Government has done nothing at all we would have seen 200,000 dead, collapse of the NHS in London, another 100,000 deaths due to that collapse.

Nothing in that says anything about whether lockdown was the right “something” to do, merely that doing nothing would not have been the best option.

166129 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to Richard Pinch, 5, #352 of 2011 🔗

Richard, you keep bringing up Manaus as a “do-nothing” when taking the figures and applying it to the UK and Sweden, they do not make sense.

18,800 for Sweden, and 123,000 for the UK based on 3300 for a pop of 1.9 M (Manaus)

Sweded – less than 6000
UK – 42000

So both are roughly 2/3 thirds less with radically different measures.

Something is not up with the numbers.

But you keep pushing this as if it is correct as a “do-nothing”

You’re not thinking it through

166195 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to mhcp, -3, #353 of 2011 🔗

The figures make sense, you just don’t like them. I’m not claiming to understand why different countries with apparently similar policies had different outcomes — UK and Norway, or example. Are you?

166215 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to Richard Pinch, 1, #354 of 2011 🔗

How do the figures make sense Richard? If you do nothing in Sweden you get 18,000 (or 100,000 in some of Ferguson’s) models.

If you do very little you get the same as doing a lot?

Tell me how does that make sense?

166230 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to mhcp, -3, #355 of 2011 🔗

Well, I’m prepared to admit that your figures make no sense to me, because you haven’t explained what they are supposed to be figures for.

166276 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to Richard Pinch, 1, #356 of 2011 🔗

Manaus has 3300 dead in 1.9 million with the “do-nothing” scenario. If we take these numbers and apply them to the population of the UK and Sweden, assuming the same viral dynamics (ceteris parebus) we get 123,000 dead for the UK and 18,800 dead for Sweden.

So now you say – okay let’s “do something”. We look at Sweden that did little and the UK that did a lot. And the actual figures of deaths are roughly the same proportion. As in the measures between Sweden and the UK have no effect.

Only the measures between “do-nothing” and “do little” appear to reduce the effect by a whopping 2/3 thirds.

Hmm, an effect that saturates that quickly? There’s something fishy with the numbers. Which means the original numbers are off.

166385 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to mhcp, #357 of 2011 🔗

Manaus also had a collapse of its healthcare system, which was, let me remind, the issue under discussion.

I don’t know why different countries have such different outcomes. But let’s look at Norway, 5.4M population, so do-nothing, on your figures, would have led to 8000 deaths. They had 275. So measures as between Norway and Sweden had an apparently enormous effect.

166426 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to Richard Pinch, #358 of 2011 🔗

Richard, the collapse of the health system in Manaus was for many reasons as it’s operating at most as a 2nd world city. The point as being demonstrated by your reference to Norway, is that when applying Manaus’ figures things don’t add up.

Plus what does Manaus’ health system do in high flu years? Does it similarly fall apart. Context is needed.

My point is that Manaus’ figures look exagerrated for a “do-nothing” scenario. If they are out by a factor of 2, which would be generous it puts the UK right smack in the middle of the Beast from the East in 2017/2018.

Meaning – do nothing.

166449 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to mhcp, #359 of 2011 🔗

Actually I’ve made a mistake with Manaus – the population is 2.6 million according to wiki.

So applying it to the UK is 85,000 people – well within the range of NHS capability.

166216 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to Richard Pinch, 2, #360 of 2011 🔗

The fact that anyone could expect that figures from shanty towns in the middle of the Amazonian rainforest would have any relevance to the developed world simply underlines how important it is to apply relevant experience to these matters.

Like for example the experience of an acknowledged leading coronavirus expert in China at the time of the outbreak, rather than simply using Chinese data based on case definitions that changed every week for seven weeks, or mortality rates in favellas.

‘The Chinese healthcare system is very overwhelmed with all the tests going through. So my thinking is this is actually not as severe a disease as is being suggested. The fatality rate is probably only 0.8%-1%. There’s a vast underreporting of cases in China. Compared to Sars and Mers we are talking about a coronavirus that has a mortality rate of 8 to 10 times less deadly to Sars to Mers. So a correct comparison is not Sars or Mers but a severe cold. Basically this is a severe form of the cold.’

Prof John Nicholls Hong Kong University 06 February

166274 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Jonathan Palmer, replying to Richard Pinch, 4, #361 of 2011 🔗

Whitty has admitted the peak had already passed before lockdown.So the measures were pointless.The NHS was never near collapse.
Also lockdowns don’t save lives they just postpone them,remember flatten the curve,and also cause other deaths.
It’s my opinion that doing nothing was a better option

166330 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mayo, replying to Jonathan Palmer, -3, #362 of 2011 🔗

Whitty has admitted the peak had already passed before lockdown

No he didn’t. He said that some people were saying it had.

BUT as I pointed out above. We didn’t really know if this was THE peak or a local maximum which applied to London.

166356 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Jonathan Palmer, 2, #363 of 2011 🔗

Mayo is, I think, correct on that point (what Whitty “admitted”). I looked into it a while back and the references to Whitty’s “admission” seem to lead to a discussion before a Commons committee in which he said that “some people” were arguing that the peak had already passed. He didn’t dismiss the point, but he didn’t endorse it explicitly either.

Happy to be proved wrong on this, but that’s the only reference I’ve seen for a source for this assertion.

166399 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to Jonathan Palmer, 1, #364 of 2011 🔗

The peak occurred after social measures short of lockdown were underway. The point of postponing the peak was precisely to keep the caseload within the capacity of the NHS and save the concomitant deaths that would have been caused by a collapse of the NHS.

Oh, and I’m well aware of the current state of the NHS and its effect on numerous people. Preventing a collapse of the NHS by shutting down large chunks of it was not, I think, what was expected at SAGE 11.

166470 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ BeBopRockSteady, replying to Richard Pinch, #365 of 2011 🔗

But to do nothing now would lead to hundreds of thousands more deaths?

166014 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Richard Pinch, 3, #366 of 2011 🔗

The point was, Diamond Princess answered pretty much all of that, but was ignored. The passengers were not just left to get on with it.

166083 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to Tyneside Tigress, #367 of 2011 🔗

The Diamond Princess answered what exactly? That doing nothing would be fine?

166132 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to Richard Pinch, 2, #368 of 2011 🔗

That the IFR never gets to 1%

166190 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to mhcp, -2, #369 of 2011 🔗

No, what it showed is that IFR didn’t get to 1% on one occasion. Other estimates of IFR were on the table too. The experience of Manaus and Guayaquil showed that it did subsequently.

166221 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to Richard Pinch, #370 of 2011 🔗

No-one has any idea what the real IFR was in Manaus, let alone the CFR.

166214 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mayo, replying to mhcp, -2, #371 of 2011 🔗

The IFR on the DP was almost 2%.

166217 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to Mayo, 1, #372 of 2011 🔗

Okay, let’s call it Exposure or Population Fatality Rate. If a ship of over 3000 people in a sealed off environment has 30 people dead then it kills 1%.

How many actually died of Covid with no co-morbities? Less than 3 I believe. May even be 0.

166459 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mayo, replying to mhcp, -3, #373 of 2011 🔗

Give up on this co-morbidiities crap. People live with “co-morbidities” for years. These were people on a cruise so were clearly able to lead a full & active life.

166467 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to Mayo, 2, #374 of 2011 🔗

The co-morbitity crap? The point is that is creates noise in determining if the virus is the cause of death. And further creates issues with attributions.

But go ahead and miss the point that people have been talking about for months just to fit your view of the world

166714 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mayo, replying to mhcp, #375 of 2011 🔗

The background mortality rate include factors such as co-morbidity. Excess deaths in the UK for 2020 are around ~50k.

If these deaths were all due to non-Covid factors then the excess mortality figure would be declining rapidly.

166778 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to Mayo, 1, #376 of 2011 🔗

‘The coronavirus (COVID-19) did not feature in the top ten leading causes of death in August 2020, in England or Wales. In England, COVID-19 was the 24th most common cause of death and in Wales it was the 19th most common cause of death, for deaths registered in August 2020.’

‘…. in both England and Wales, the COVID-19 mortality rate continued to decline for the fourth consecutive month.’


166476 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to Mayo, 1, #377 of 2011 🔗

People live with “co-morbidities” for years

Explain, Mayo?

It is a fact that the great majority of those who die with the SARS-CoV-2 virus in their system (or at least test positive for it) have one or more other causes of death on their death certificates.

Are you saying that a death certificate that states a primary cause of death is “carcinoma of lung” or “myocardial infarction” as well as “covid-19” is wrong, or that their lung cancer and heart disease were not fatal?

Are you suggesting that these people would have survived their cancer and heart condition happily and in perpetuity had covid-19 not come along?

166710 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mayo, replying to John P, #378 of 2011 🔗

They are not all on their last legs. The Diamond Princess deaths are a case in point. Many of the victims may well have had health issues but that didn’t stop them taking a cruise.

166783 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to Mayo, 1, #379 of 2011 🔗

All common cold viruses are lethal to the elderly and infirm, immunocompromised; more so than influenza:

‘Unexpectedly Higher Morbidity and Mortality of Hospitalized Elderly Patients Associated with Rhinovirus Compared with Influenza Virus Respiratory Tract Infection’

166853 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Cheshirecatslave, replying to John P, 1, #380 of 2011 🔗

Diabetes,asthma, obesity and high blood pressure are also co morbidities . People can live many years of good quality life with conditions such as these. I don’t deny Covid can be very dangerous to the vulnerable(which I am). I do object strongly to having the freedom to make my own choices of how much risk I wish to take snatched from me.

166246 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Mayo, #381 of 2011 🔗

No. Not everyone was tested. Of those that tested positive, not all had symptoms. Of those that died, not all died ‘of covid’, and several died more than 28 days after they tested positive.

166374 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mayo, replying to Tyneside Tigress, -2, #382 of 2011 🔗

Even Ferguson would struggle to build a model which would show 700 people infected within 10 days. Now you claim there was more. Really?

What was R0 on the Diamond Princess, then?

The DP was a big ship and passengers spent a lot of time on deck in the fresh air.

several died more than 28 days after they tested positive.

That’s because they were in intensive care at the time. Coincidentally, they were admitted to intensive care after displaying symptoms of Covid-19.

166189 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Nigel Sherratt, replying to Richard Pinch, 1, #383 of 2011 🔗

That only 20% were infected and 1% of the infected died despite the ‘cruise demographic’ and the ideal spreader environment.

166211 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mayo, replying to Tyneside Tigress, -3, #384 of 2011 🔗

No it didn’t. DP passengers were quarantined after 10 days. Over 700 passengers were infected from a single index patient in less than 2 weeks. That’s fast.

166373 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ TJN, replying to Mayo, 1, #385 of 2011 🔗

It’s a fair point to debate how effective the quarantine was, and thus how applicable the DP figures are to a wider field.

But I recall complaints at the time that the quarantine wasn’t being properly instigated. In the fog of data, the DP surely still has relevance – especially when compared to what happened in large cities, and the greater knowledge we have now concerning existing immunity.

166785 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to Mayo, #386 of 2011 🔗

How were the ‘infections’ detected? PCR test? How many cycles?

165998 ▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to Richard Pinch, 16, #387 of 2011 🔗

You’ve set up a number of strawmen there:

“You can have any reasonable piece of data you want about the virus, and you can assume that it’s correct — a luxury not available in the real world.”

Because we do have years of data about viruses especially coronaviruses and SARS viruses. Where do you think Michael Levitt and others pulled that from.

So you would first check this and do the following:

You would take the high number values of deaths from the flu in the last 5 or 10 years – 50,000 and double it:

So 100,000 – how do we cope?
Then triple it 150,000 how do we cope with that?

50,000 dead what did we do – nothing – that’s your baseline.

Then, in all of recent history what has been the worst deaths – Hong Kong Flu – over 100,000 – what did we do then – nothing?

Okay so it’s looking like if anything the worst-case precautionary action to take will be to increase contingency in the NHS – emergency ICU’s – okay we have mobile units for that.

And perhaps telling people to wash hands and respect hygiene. Also maybe have people take 5 days off with flu and we can compensate companies for that.

What else – do we take special care of the elderly? Yes let’s put that in place.

Here’s what we don’t do:

Interrupt the normal function of society – this will cause financial issues much larger than the virus.
Restrict movement – personal freedoms and the adaptibility of society occurs all the time in markets. Plus history has shown the folly of centralised governance and having the few control the many. Works for ants, not for humans.

You take onboard the mathematical modelling but it must sit with reality After all the previous predictions/projections or whatever you want to call it were overblown.

That’s how you plan it. The trouble is how do you SELL it? As the other factor in this whole debacle has been the media.

That requires leadership.

But then to add, what would you base it on? It appears you would take a theoretical model, unvalidated and unverified and say that this is what would happen?

Or take a simplified model with inputs that are an order of magnitude higher than seen before and say yes this is the worst-case? No checking against history or looking into the assumptions?

Theory over reality.

166025 ▶▶▶▶▶ bucky99, replying to mhcp, 2, #388 of 2011 🔗

Precisely. Excellently put.

166185 ▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to mhcp, -3, #389 of 2011 🔗

In summary, then your answer to the question “What analytical or practical processes do you carry out to get you from the question to the answer sought on the day?” is, to put it in a nutshell, think of a number and double it. You can imagine the reaction of others posting here if SAGE had done that …

But most of your answer is about what policies you would have adopted. That’s not what I’m discussing. To keep the focus, it’s about how to assess what would happen if we did nothing. Saying what we might do is not answering that question.

166229 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to Richard Pinch, 5, #390 of 2011 🔗

And what’s wrong with “Think of a number and double it”? You can make a reasonable case for it using historic numbers without a model

This is the fundamental problem here. Thinking that we can use models that haven’t worked on previous epidemics.

You focusing on what a “do-nothing scenario” would do is a semantic point?

We were already washing our hands and watching out if we sneezed on people. We were already considering not being in places that were too packed.

So a do-nothing situation is a fantasy as society was already adapting.

A worst case for do nothing is 100,000 based on Hong Kong Flu.

Great now what would you do? Any person would ask how do we get some insurance on that to deal with it.

166265 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to mhcp, -4, #391 of 2011 🔗

You focusing on what a “do-nothing scenario” would do is a semantic point?

Since semantics is about understanding the meanings of words, I take that as a compliment.

And what’s wrong with “Think of a number and double it”?

If it helps, imagine Vallance, Whitty or Ferguson saying it and then tell us what’s wrong with it!

166289 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to Richard Pinch, 3, #392 of 2011 🔗

There’s nothing wrong with it. It’s used all the time in engineering for planes and spacecraft. As well as bridges. It comes from experience and looking at historic data and previous qualification programs

What it appears is that a “simplistic solution” is wrong? Even when it can be backed up with logic.

Barney is right: It’s the Empiricists versus the Rationalists

166360 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to mhcp, -2, #393 of 2011 🔗

Frankly that’s silly.

166472 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to Richard Pinch, 3, #394 of 2011 🔗

That’s your opinion. I’ve worked for over 20 years in engineering projects and it’s built into the requirements (often over engineered requirements as well!) of 100% margins in key parts.

166786 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to mhcp, -1, #395 of 2011 🔗

Then you should have known better than to say that “Think of a number and double it” is “used all the time in engineering for planes and spacecraft. As well as bridges.”

166218 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mayo, replying to mhcp, -4, #396 of 2011 🔗

Where do you think Michael Levitt and others pulled that from.

Levitt used data from a location that was FULLY locked down and quarantined from the rest of China.

The myth concerning Levitt’s predictions continues to grow. He continues to be proved wrong as time passes.

166001 ▶▶▶▶ BeBopRockSteady, replying to Richard Pinch, 9, #397 of 2011 🔗

The fact that Tengell and Co saw how ill informed the model. Was at the start speaks volumes.

If you are doing a worst case prediction 12 fold variation on the numbers that eventually arrived in reality seems utterly worthless.

Worst case you’d think might be double, triple but 12?

Maybe Ferguson is just the lead guy but who researched the validity of their assumptions in susceptibility in particular? Especially since Sweden clearly went with wildly different ones?

Needs a full nquiry, that’s for sure.

166307 ▶▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to BeBopRockSteady, 4, #398 of 2011 🔗

Yep. And apparently this common sense approach (one used in engineering a lot) is wrong because it doesn’t come with a complicated model.

166347 ▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to BeBopRockSteady, -1, #399 of 2011 🔗

If you are doing a worst case prediction 12 fold variation on the numbers that eventually arrived in reality seems utterly worthless.

This meme is based on a so-called “calculation” that because another group’s model for Sweden’s social measures was out by a factor of 12 (or whatever: it was certainly badly wrong) therefore Ferguson’s model for do-nothing was also out by a factor of 12. Which is nonsense.

I’ve already explained that the RWC didn’t depend on Ferguson’s model anyway.

166028 ▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to Richard Pinch, 4, #400 of 2011 🔗

To answer myself again based on:

“It was explicitly adopted as a RWC by SAGE 11 on 26 February. They thought that the parameters involved: r0=2.8, infective period 5 days, IFR 1% and no pre-existing immunity were reasonable assumptions at the time.”

As you rightly point out it looks like, what else could they have done?

Well they could have checked to see was an IRF of 1% even reasonable against reality. A cursory check would have shown there was something odd about that.

I think the deeper problem is the belief that when it comes to what looks like complicated matters you need a complicated solution. And that such a complication solution can only be modelled.

The trouble with this is that you can deal with the situation with simple logic and the belief that the system has contingency or that we can increase it.

Speaking as a technical person, a physicist, a rocket scientist too, this has been the biggest smack in the face to me. That simple solutions are often what are best for complicated situations.

Because what the modeller doesn’t see is the implementation cost nor the feedback of the system when you go dicking around in it.

166170 ▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to mhcp, #401 of 2011 🔗

The data on IFR was conflicting, and SAGE took a view on that. The experience of some cities suggests that 1% was not far out.

what the modeller doesn’t see is the implementation cost nor the feedback of the system

Unless explicitly asked to, no.

This illustrates why modelling is a valuable tool in the hands of people who know how to use it. A good servant but a bad master, if you like. But the question I posed for consideration “If we do nothing, could the NHS cope” is only part of the planning process. People discussing this point tend to assume that the only alternative to do-nothing was lockdown, which of course isn’t so. Once you have a range of options on the table you need to compare their costs and benefits. I do not claim to know how, when or even whether that was done. But modelling the costs of an RWC is only one step in that process.

166242 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to Richard Pinch, 1, #402 of 2011 🔗

Then your argument is just semantics as we are agreeing.

Do nothing is keep carrying on as before which at the time is washing hands and staying at home if you are sick (like we typically do)

The only difference is the public’s awareness level is heightened by the media and reports of Wuhan and Italy.

As for could the NHS cope? The NHS regularly expands and contracts capability with elective procedures. So yes the NHS could cope in general. There would be hot-spots.

History has shown we can deal with 100,000 deaths in a flu season. Probably more now.

166336 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to mhcp, -1, #403 of 2011 🔗

I have to say that you have given the clearest answer so far to the challenge.

Your process is to take the worst flu outbreak we’ve had for fifty years and double it. That leads you to conclude that the NHS could have coped.

I don’t say that i think that is what would have happened — in fact I don’t think it is.

But more to the point, it’s hardly a Reasonable Worst Case estimate. In fact it isn’t even a worst case at all, since the Spanish Flu was much worse. What you’ve given is a central estimate: possibly a most likely scenario. But not a Reasonable Worst Case.

166350 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to Richard Pinch, 1, #404 of 2011 🔗

The Spanish flu was 100 years ago and a lot was going on that we still don’t understand. It isn’t a reasonable case. It is an outlier. SARS and MERS are the benchmark, Hong Kong Flu is one of the reasonable worst cases. A central estimate is the 2017/2018 flu season as that was a worst case within the usual mortality.

166533 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to mhcp, #405 of 2011 🔗

It is an outlier

Whereas Covid is not? You knew that how, exactly, on 26 February?

166255 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mayo, replying to mhcp, #406 of 2011 🔗

Well they could have checked to see was an IRF of 1% even reasonable against reality.

At the time it was reasonable. Even now, there is still uncertainty.

I rather think some are conflating IFR with heterogeneity. And that’s before we have the kerfuffle over False Positive tests. If we only consider symptomatic cases as TRUE cases which plenty of sceptics would prefer then IFR is much closer to 1% than 0.1%.

166318 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to Mayo, 1, #407 of 2011 🔗

So in all the modern history of respiratory diseases has the IFR ever been 1%? Was in for SARS and MERS? Was it for ever for the flu?

The trouble is that the thinking was blinkered by panic and the need to pull some complicated model out to do a job that could be easily bounded by simply reading historical data and adding contingency.

Something a farmer or a builder would know how to do. Someone as “common” as that

166415 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mayo, replying to mhcp, #408 of 2011 🔗

Was in for SARS and MERS?

Err….. Yes


With these methods, estimates of the case fatality ratio range from 11% to 17% in Hong Kong, from 13% to 15% in Singapore, from 15% to 19% in Canada, and from 5% to 13% in China.

A more accurate and unbiased estimation of case fatality for SARS can be obtained with a third method, survival analysis. This method relies on detailed individual data on the time from illness onset to death or full recovery, or time since illness onset for current cases. Using this method, WHO estimates that the case fatality ratio is 14% in Singapore and 15% in Hong Kong.


More recent estimates suggest CFR ~10%.


You really don’t want to know. Fortunately it’s pretty rare.

Frequency 2519 cases (as January 2020) [4] Deaths866 (35%)


166477 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to Mayo, 1, #409 of 2011 🔗

Ah okay I see this about terminology. Okay what percentage of the population is going to die from SARS and MERS?

It’s not 1% is it.

166106 ▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Richard Pinch, 11, #410 of 2011 🔗

Your point that a reasonable worst case scenario is intended as a tool to inform government decision making is a perfectly valid one, as is your point that the decisions themselves are for ministers to make, based on the information available and so the blame for bad decisions lies with ministers, not with advisors.

However, I also think that your defence of Ferguson on this basis is (inadvertently) disingenuous, for two reasons.

Firstly, Ferguson was well aware of the likely impact of the figures he presented. He must have been, because his millenarian “not actually predictions” had led to massive overreaction from governments before. Nonetheless, not only was he not a voice of caution in presenting the scenario, but he actively sought publicity for these numbers. Again, he was perfectly well aware of how the media would present this to the public, but he did it anyway. He and the Imperial team were also very vocal in dismissing alternative models that painted a more measured (and as it turns out, more accurate) picture. Now, it may be the case that he actually genuinely believed that unprecedented intervention and total lockdown was the only way to save countless lives, but nonetheless arguing for a specific policy and leveraging the media and public opinion to apply pressure on the government to implement that policy turns him from advisor to lobbyist and self publicist and makes it harder to argue that he doesn’t share some of the blame for the policy decisions.

Secondly, however sound his mathematics and however reasonable his choice of inputs, the real world data now available to us shows his scenario to have been very significantly wrong. He is (theoretically) no longer a government advisor, so it would be completely reasonable of him to decide to keep his nose out of the whole thing or – given his thirst for publicity – admirable of him to go on record as saying “that was what we thought we knew at the time, but it turns out not to have been nearly as bad as we thought, thank goodness.” But he hasn’t done that. Instead, he’s continued to seek opportunities to talk to the media and assert that his original modelling was correct (even though we now know that every one of his input variables were very wrong) and therefore that the policy he lobbied for is responsible for saving hundreds of thousands of lives and that if it is abandoned, those hundreds of thousands of lives will be lost anyway. At this point, this makes him either delusional, intellectually blinkered and too stubborn to look at anything that disagrees with him, or a narcissist.

166745 ▶▶▶▶▶ TJN, replying to matt, 3, #411 of 2011 🔗

Great post. IMO you are going to the heart of what is wrong with Ferguson.

I think that all along he had ulterior motives, and that this should have been spotted by those dealing with him.

166295 ▶▶▶▶ TJN, replying to Richard Pinch, 2, #412 of 2011 🔗

They thought that the parameters involved: r0=2.8, infective period 5 days, IFR 1% and no pre-existing immunity were reasonable assumptions at the time.

The first two were clearly reasonable assumptions. But an IFR of 1 % (0.9%) and no pre-existing immunity? Well as worse-case scenarios maybe, but actually likely?

There was already a great deal of information available, particularly from China, both from Wuhan and areas that hadn’t locked down, which contradicted these assumptions. Even if you didn’t trust the specifics of the Chinese data, it was most unlikely to be out by orders of magnitude (by which I mean multiples of 10, rather than just multiples). It was clear that the Wuhan lockdowns hadn’t contained the virus, and thus that it was out there doing its work. But the bodies weren’t piled high, and by March the virus was fading – and in many areas of the SE Asia it didn’t seem to have got going at all. There was one obvious potential explanation for this – widespread pre-existing immunity. I have no medical background, but this occurred to me back then, and also suggested to me why Europe appeared to be suffering more than SE Asia.

I knocked up my own spreadsheet model (very easy) back in April and played with some figures. It quickly became apparent to me that the most critical parameter was degree of population susceptibility. Did SAGE do the same? I don’t recall anyone talking about that back then. (Indeed, the first time I saw it mentioned was in a comment by Will Jones on a Spectator thread). And the concept still doesn’t appear to have occurred to Hancock et al. – witness his ‘hundreds of thousands of deaths’ statement in the Commons a few days ago.

OK, back in March, if you’re on SAGE or in government you may wish to err on the side of caution – and allow for example’s sake an IFR of 0.9% and no immunity. But having made such serious assumptions, they should also have considered the other side of the coin – collateral damage owing to an appropriate reaction to those assumptions. Apparently they didn’t, and that in my book is negligence.

Besides, within a very short time it was/should have been clear that these assumptions couldn’t be justified. The data and models should have been revisited, and advice and policy adjusted accordingly. But they weren’t; we’re still in the same rut. And I find that deeply disturbing.

166417 ▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to TJN, -1, #413 of 2011 🔗

OK, back in March, if you’re on SAGE or in government you may wish to err on the side of caution – and allow for example’s sake an IFR of 0.9% and no immunity. But having made such serious assumptions, they should also have considered the other side of the coin – collateral damage owing to an appropriate reaction to those assumptions. Apparently they didn’t, and that in my book is negligence.

As I made it clear, asking what would happen in the do-nothing scenario — and in particular whether the NHS could cope, is only the first step in the planning process. (“Do nothing” is always the first option on the paper for the Minister.). Failure to take further steps, if there was such a failure, is culpable, but is not a criticism of the modelling process, but of the planning process. I would be surprised if there had not been some sort of cost-benefit analysis of the various options. Perhaps Bower’s book has an authoritative description of that, I don’t know.

166583 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ TJN, replying to Richard Pinch, 2, #414 of 2011 🔗

I recall reading on one of Toby’s posts that in a Cabinet meeting only one person mentioned the potential economic effects of a lockdown, and that this was quickly passed over. Perhaps someone else on here will recall the details.

I don’t think there ever was a proper analysis and balance of the options. It’s as if certain forces wanted a lockdown, and nothing else. That’s the strong impression I get, although I concede that’s not science.

The decision making process and where it lies, the balance between SAGE and government, has gone seriously awry here. The government has said it’s acting on ‘The Science’. But the Science as in SAGE appears to have had a narrow view of things, so an awful lot has fallen through the gap – actually a gaping hole.

One of my problems with models is that they obscure responsibility. An individual didn’t come up with the scenario that needs acting on – the model did, as if it’s some living entity of truth or reality. Given the unknowns back in March, I don’t think the Ferguson model had any predictive capacity whatsoever, and SAGE should have known that. By adjusting parameters it may have enabled to think about outcomes and actions, but that is all, and I see no evidence that they did so. But we’ve disagreed on this point before on here.

165940 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Richard Pinch, 4, #415 of 2011 🔗

The Gov and their mouthpiece, the MSM, only work off worst case scenarios. All the Brexit projections and reports were worst case scenarios. The most likely scenarios don’t sell papers or get the headlines, so worst case scenarios will always be used.

165964 ▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to JohnB, #416 of 2011 🔗

It’s certainly true that the media like to publish the most exciting figures they can, which tend to get repeated like memes. But what can a scientist do? Not publish their results because they might be taken out of context … then they’re accused of a cover-up.

165952 ▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to Richard Pinch, 2, #417 of 2011 🔗

Playing with words.

Statisticians may have appropriated the word ‘prediction’ to have a very specific meaning inside their profession.

That does not change its meaning for the rest of us: a forecast.

And, for the rest of us, a reasonable worst case scenario is a prediction, forecast, albeit heavily caveated, given certain data and assumptions.

If a reasonable worst case scenario were not such a prediction, forecast, it would be entirely useless for contingency planning purposes.

The fact that it was, in the case of this common cold coronavirus, entirely useless for contingency planning purposes was simply due to the selection of poor data and assumptions added to a dodgy old banger of a model…….

165958 ▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to Tim Bidie, #418 of 2011 🔗

Nonsense. If you’re buying a new house then there’s all the difference in the world between my saying: “Your house might burn down: how would you cope if it did?”, which is a Reasonable Worst Case; and saying “Your house will burn down, how will you cope when it does”, which is a prediction.

165966 ▶▶▶▶ JohnMac, replying to Richard Pinch, 1, #419 of 2011 🔗

If the range between best-case and worst-case is huge then what is the point of making any predictions at all?

165975 ▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to JohnMac, #420 of 2011 🔗

The point of an RWC is to inform planning. In this case, the question was whether the NHS could cope if the government did nothing and let the disease take its course. The answer is no, so that means you might reasonably decide to do something. What that something might be is not determined by the RWC, and indeed this site is devoted to discussing whether the something that was chosen was the right something or not.

166141 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to Richard Pinch, #421 of 2011 🔗

The answer is that if we did nothing we could cope with 100,000 deaths based on history. Above that we would need contingency

165996 ▶▶▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to Richard Pinch, 2, #422 of 2011 🔗


Your house might burn down actually means your house will burn down, given certain sets of circumstances…….a prediction, forecast, based on certain data and caveated with certain assumptions.

166131 ▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to Tim Bidie, #423 of 2011 🔗

Semantics is about the meanings of words, which seems to me quite an important thing to get right.

Your house might burn down actually means your house will burn down, given certain sets of circumstances…….a prediction, forecast, based on certain data and caveated with certain assumptions.

That’s still a conditional. It is not a prediction.

166227 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to Richard Pinch, #424 of 2011 🔗

That your house will burn down, given certain circumstances, is a prediction, a forecast…….albeit conditional on those circumstances, assumptions but still a prediction, caveated……

166312 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to Tim Bidie, #425 of 2011 🔗

It look as if we’ve reached the “You say tomayto” stage of this particular discussion.

166589 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Richard Pinch, #426 of 2011 🔗

And thank fuck for that !

166404 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ CGL, replying to Tim Bidie, 1, #427 of 2011 🔗

Must renew house insurance. . . .

166017 ▶▶▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to Richard Pinch, #428 of 2011 🔗

“Your house might burn down: how would you cope if it did?”

‘If your house were to burn down, how would you cope’

The conditional……….so a forecast based on certain conditions, for example data, assumptions.

166077 ▶▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Richard Pinch, #429 of 2011 🔗

If houses never burn down, then it is not a RWC scenario. I’m not saying that the proposition that they never burn down is correct or not, but if there is evidence that says that they never burn down, that mean by definition it is not an RWC scenario. It therefore hangs on ‘evidence’.

166140 ▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 1, #430 of 2011 🔗

If there is evidence that houses cannot burn down, then it’s not an RWC. If there is simply no evidence that houses have ever burned down, then you need to make a judgement. For example, we have never had an Ebola outbreak in this country. Is there evidence that “we never have an Ebola outbreak”? No. Indeed, we came uncomfortably close to one in late 2014 and I think it would be wrong to say that the risk is so low we can disregard it. What’s the RWC for a case of Ebola arriving at Heathrow airport? You can’t say it cannot happen, because it has. So, what’s the plan?

166240 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to Richard Pinch, #431 of 2011 🔗

Given certain assumptions, you predict, forecast, a scenario where Ebola could, realistically, break out here and (hopefully) create and resource a contingency plan….

166299 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to Tim Bidie, 1, #432 of 2011 🔗

And what process would you go through to derive those assumptions, to create and resource that contingency plan? Would a Reasonable Worst Case be part of that process?

166396 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to Richard Pinch, 1, #433 of 2011 🔗

The bottom line is that some modelling is useful but all models are wrong. So models can assist but hard data, relevant expertise, useful experience and leadership are required to make actual decisions

But only one person in the cabinet knew that and he wasn’t a cabinet minister.

The senior civil servant could and should have made all of this plain…….maybe he did………..

166326 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Richard Pinch, 2, #434 of 2011 🔗

I am pleased that you are now appearing to concede that this rests on ‘evidence’. In several of your earlier comments you appear to have put the cart before the horse. If the evidence is flawed or of poor provenance, the model is dead on arrival, and so is any RWC derived from it.

As an aside, I was once asked to comment on a highly sophisticated econometric model presented by a world expert in a particular field. I dismissed it based on the evidence, without knowing anything about how the model worked. I had prior knowledge and experience of the dataset, and a comprehensive understanding of timelines and relationships that underpinned the dataset. The fact that the model’s RWC-equivalent conclusion established the author’s original hypothesis – that a particular merger did not lead to higher prices – merely reflected the dataset was from a period prior to the merger having taken place.

166532 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 1, #435 of 2011 🔗

If the evidence is flawed or of poor provenance, the model is dead on arrival, and so is any RWC derived from it.

I’m not disputing that as such, but it’s not the whole story. The modelling process throws up the questions you need to ask, and gives some indication of the way in which the outputs depend on those inputs. For example, in the RWC we needed to know a few things: R0, infectious period, pre-existing immunity and IFR. The model depends on the IFR linearly, so you can immediately see that if you know everything else, a 10% uncertainty in IFR (eg 0.9-1.1%) leads to a 10% uncertainty in deaths. That might or might not be significant. The pre-existing immunity really only starts to make a difference above 30% or so. Do we know it to that level of precision. And so on.

But my point remains. The question has to be asked, and to whatever extent possible answered. How to do that? If you don’t use a model what do you use? Genuine question, by the way, not rhetorical.

166777 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Richard Pinch, #436 of 2011 🔗

Yes you need to know the relationships between the variables and the statistical significance of the outputs, as would be the case in any multivariate or regression model. The problem comes in what IFR you use. If you are out by a factor of 10, which seems to be a constant characteristic of every IFR that Ferguson has presented across a set of independent, but similar diseases since 2000, the RWC is no such thing.

167066 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to Tyneside Tigress, #437 of 2011 🔗

What assumptions Ferguson may have made, or rather, been given, for other diseases in the past are not really relevant to whether the IFR assumed for this disease was correct either in hindsight or, more relevantly, on the data available at the time. The consensus view on the IFR was formed by SAGE, as you can see from the minutes online. It wasn’t selected by Ferguson. Reference: Influenza vs COVID planning assumptions: update, 26 February 2020

Case Fatality Rate (CFR) (symptomatic cases) (The proportion of deaths within a designated population due to an epidemiological outbreak). Uncertain but planning on the assumption 2-3%

Infection Fatality Rate (both symptomatic and asymptomatic cases) 1% (variable by age).

166139 ▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to Richard Pinch, #438 of 2011 🔗

Okay then, what is difference in the action taken?

166149 ▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to mhcp, #439 of 2011 🔗

If someone says to me “Your house might burn down: how would you cope if it did?”, I’ld probably say, gosh, I’ld better take out house insurance, to cope with the impact if it did, and I’ll get some smoke detectors, to cope with the risk to the occupants. In fact, that’s more or less exactly what I did do.

On the other hand, if someone says to me “Your house will burn down, how will you cope when it does”, then depend on their tone of voice, I would consider telling the police that someone had threatened me with arson.

166251 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to Richard Pinch, #440 of 2011 🔗

Semantics. Tone wise you may tell the police, but in general you’ll still get the insurance because it would make you think “Hmm what DO I do if my house burns down?”

Most people don’t see the difference between prediction and projection, as most people will get the insurance and fit the alarms.

So the point is technicality buried in the noise.

166293 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to mhcp, #441 of 2011 🔗

Since semantics is about the correct use of words, I take it as a compliment, though I suspect you did not mean it as one. Nonetheless, I take it that you understand my point.

166481 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to Richard Pinch, 1, #442 of 2011 🔗

I understand you are arguing about the position of the deck chairs on a Belfast-built ship while others are thinking about more pressing matters

166779 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to mhcp, #443 of 2011 🔗

I think you may have overlooked the fact that the lead item on today’s blog is precisely about those deck chairs.

165969 ▶▶▶ JohnMac, replying to Tim Bidie, #444 of 2011 🔗

Hi Tim, where did your 2010-2020 graphs come from?

166031 ▶▶▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to JohnMac, #445 of 2011 🔗

Oops. Which ones were those? Probably ‘Roche The Healthy Skeptic’ website but I haven’t worked out how to post a graph and then add text, reference yet! Apologies

166040 ▶▶▶▶▶ JohnMac, replying to Tim Bidie, #446 of 2011 🔗

This one:

comment image

Because with a reliable source for the data it seems to me to show in one picture that the whole thing is nonsense. And therefore might persuade a few people!

166050 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to JohnMac, 1, #447 of 2011 🔗

Phew! Thanks1 Actually CEBM, where else!

If you right click on the image, it gives you the address….who knew? Certainly not me!

166054 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ JohnMac, replying to Tim Bidie, 1, #448 of 2011 🔗

Many thanks. Do you have a link?

166068 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to JohnMac, 2, #449 of 2011 🔗

Quite a few charts but easy to find by scrolling down. Thanks for reminding me. It is a good one and CEBM are legends all and everyone of them!


166167 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Adamb, replying to Tim Bidie, 1, #450 of 2011 🔗

Thanks for the link, your chart caught my eye yesterday as well. How does it tally with the excess death chart that show a clear spike then return to pretty much average? Is it due to side effects of lockdown making up the balance I wonder?

166271 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to Adamb, 2, #451 of 2011 🔗

You would have hoped that someone within government would have suggested that discharging tens of thousands of patients from hospital within 24 hours was unlikely to end well.

Apparently only one person, Jesse Norman, I believe, did so!

166304 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ JohnMac, replying to Tim Bidie, #452 of 2011 🔗

Yes. Good question from Adam. Good answer.

166173 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ JohnMac, replying to Tim Bidie, #453 of 2011 🔗

Excellent! Very many thanks.

165963 ▶▶ stewart, replying to Richard Pinch, 2, #454 of 2011 🔗

Reasonable Worst Cases are explicitly not predictions.

I’m afraid that Reasonable Worst Cases have not only become predictions, but also the basis for public policy.

165968 ▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to stewart, #455 of 2011 🔗

They are certainly reported all too often as “predictions”, and taken as such by many people, including a lot of people who comment here.

165995 ▶▶▶▶ BJJ, replying to Richard Pinch, 1, #456 of 2011 🔗

What is the point you are trying to make?

166010 ▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to BJJ, #457 of 2011 🔗

That media misreporting makes it harder to have a sensible discussion about policy when numbers are involved. That politicians are not always as well versed in science as they need to be to engage sensibly with their advice. That public trust in science is being damaged. I could go on …

166069 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ BJJ, replying to Richard Pinch, 1, #458 of 2011 🔗

Iohannidis said in March that he feared that science is going to be the big loser in this. But there is no excuse for wrecking livelihoods on an industrial scale, because of hypothetical scenarios. Your house may burn down, but you don´t stop working while you are worrying about it.

166006 ▶▶▶▶ Tim Bidie, replying to Richard Pinch, #459 of 2011 🔗

It is a very gallant rearguard action…but ‘that ship has already sailed’ and some time ago……

Ferguson is one of the highest-profile faces in the effort to use mathematical models that predict the spread of the virus…’


165978 ▶▶ Mark, replying to Richard Pinch, 8, #460 of 2011 🔗

Your point is technically correct, but nevertheless wrong imo. Ferguson knows full well how his “reasonable worst case” predictions will be used and seeks to gain personally (in status and the resulting grants etc) from the higher profile response generated by the resulting fear. Just like the unprofessional medical propagandists speaking for the government the other night, he makes a “non-prediction” in the full knowledge that it will be treated as a prediction, while hoping that it will be deniable when it doesn’t come about in the way you seek to do here.

Well when a propagandist seeks to benefit from such behaviour it is meet that he should also be damned by it.

In other areas, I accept your and others’ arguments that we should try to be better than the other side in not relying on weak arguments, and therefore we must listen to unwelcome but accurate criticism.

In this case, no.

166004 ▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to Mark, 2, #461 of 2011 🔗

It cuts both ways. Government planning uses Reasonable Worst Case scenarios and they are capable of being valuable tools. Indeed, I think someone else has commented here on their use in engineering, for example. So someone is going to provide them, and indeed in this particular case, as I’ve said before, this particular RWC could be worked out on the back of an envelope.

Your point about Prof Ferguson being overly enthusiastic to have his name and work in the public eye is, I think, a valid one. As I say, I have no brief for him personally or any special knowledge of his work.

But the fact remains that if any scientist mentions any figures at all in public, the media are likely to seize on the most exciting number and misreport it — which is a serious deterrent to a lot of scientists.

166145 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Richard Pinch, 3, #462 of 2011 🔗

Look at it this way, perhaps. We know we have a problem in epidemiology, that there is a huge pressure on experts to overstate risks, because the perception is that they will be pilloried for underestimating a danger but not much criticised for overstating it. So, as many have pointed out, they will structure models to avoid any risk of understating, while being relaxed about orders of magnitude errors on the upside. This, imo, is what Ferguson did in his modelling. That;’s what happens when you introduce ultimately unrealistic worst case assumptions with multiplicative effects.

The kind of “unfair” criticism of Ferguson you are attacking here is one way of introducing some cultural control on that problem.

If Ferguson wants to be one of the big boys whose work is used to set policies that destroy lives in the millions (debatably for the “greater good”), then he should face the consequences. Personal disgrace would be far less harm than his work has caused to millions around the world. Having failed to honestly represent and downplay the numbers he came up with, he should not be allowed to escape all consequences by just claiming “good intentions”, let alone weasel words about how seriously his numbers should be taken.

Let’s just remember that he was accusing people with different predictions of being “dangerous”, back when the crucial decisions were taken..

165980 ▶▶ DeepBlueYonder, replying to Richard Pinch, 8, #463 of 2011 🔗

Since March 2020 I have not heard a single shred of self-criticism from Professor Ferguson. Not one single shred.

166753 ▶▶▶ TJN, replying to DeepBlueYonder, 1, #464 of 2011 🔗

A telling point, that says something about the man.

166021 ▶▶ Andy Riley, replying to Richard Pinch, 1, #465 of 2011 🔗

Missing from this discussion is the point that to make a policy decision, we need to know the probabilities of the various scenarios and the cost of mitigation.
Without these we could make a long list of RWCs facing mankind that would cost more than the total global GDP to mitigate.
Another way of planning is to focus on building and maintaining organisational and physical structures that can deal with a wide range of emergencies. Something like the Civil Defence in the Cold War.

166121 ▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to Andy Riley, #466 of 2011 🔗

Without these we could make a long list of RWCs facing mankind that would cost more than the total global GDP to mitigate.

We could indeed. One outcome of a risk assessment is that you might decide to simply tolerate the risk. For example, extinction-level asteroid impact.

166184 ▶▶▶▶ Andy Riley, replying to Richard Pinch, #467 of 2011 🔗

We never hear much about Coronal Mass Ejections (CME)
They are relatively frequent and could bring the global economy to a halt by disabling or destroying much of our electronic infrastructure.

166209 ▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to Andy Riley, #468 of 2011 🔗

Then you’ll be pleased to hear they were on the National Risk Register in 2015.

166041 ▶▶ Leemc23, replying to Richard Pinch, 9, #469 of 2011 🔗

Has he ever been asked as to why he is happy to always answer the stupid question of “reasonable worst case scenario”. What’s the point of that. The question should be what is the “most likely outcome?”

I am getting up and going downstairs for breakfast.

Reasonable worst case scenario – I get out of bed, slip and break my back, I lay in a pool of my own liquids for days, I somehow use my tongue to crawl to the stairway and then slip head first down the stairs, crack my skull open against every step and finally slide with force into the front door at the bottom of the hall way. I am not killed and again lay in a pool of human fluids for days as my own cat decides to eat me alive. And it’s raining outside.

Most likely outcome.

I get up. Walk down stairs with ease. Eat my Special K. Read Lockdown Sceptics and want to hurt Matt Hancock. I then spend the rest of my day in disbelief at what’s happening.

See the difference?

166112 ▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to Leemc23, #470 of 2011 🔗

Yes, I do. Shorn of its admittedly entertaining narrative, the RWC is that you have a fatal accident. Is it so absurd to plan for that eventuality? Do you have life insurance?

166236 ▶▶▶▶ BJJ, replying to Richard Pinch, #471 of 2011 🔗

I think people here are trying to explain to you that planning for a RWC is inherently naive. You cannot live your life that way and neither can human society. So pragmatism makes such planning an irrelevance. We always opt for the most likely occurrence, which is the prudent way to plan for the future. RWC is just for kinky scientists. Has no value in real life. Reminds one of the Climate Alarmists. And of course the Second Coming and Apocalypse which certainly are within the category of RWC.

166281 ▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to BJJ, 1, #472 of 2011 🔗

… and I’m pointing out that people actually do it all the time. Do you have house insurance with a rebuilding component? Why? After all, it’s not very likely that your house will burn down. Do you have travel insurance? Why? It;s not very likely you’ll need an air ambulance back home. Do you have life insurance to cover your mortgage? Why? It’s not very likely you’ll die before it’s paid off. And so on.

But government planning isn’t quite the same as personal risk. If you don’t take out travel insurance and get sick, the rest of us are hardly affected. But if the government fails to plan for, say, a nasty flu outbreak, we all suffer.

166306 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ BJJ, replying to Richard Pinch, 1, #473 of 2011 🔗

It is about the word reasonable. You don´t buy insurance that you cannot afford. That is what the science advocated for and what became gorvernment strategy.

166431 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to BJJ, #474 of 2011 🔗

I think what you’re saying is not so much that people don’t consider Reasonable Worst Case scenarios, explicitly or implicitly, when making important life decisions (since in fact they plainly do), but that this particular RWC is one you find unreasonable for some, er, reason.

166503 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ BJJ, replying to Richard Pinch, #475 of 2011 🔗

Yes that is correct. I find this scenario unreasonble and implausable. But my main point is: to even briefly consider to wreck the economy of the country to prepare for one however plausible scenario is reckless. You could figure out on a napkin that by doing nothing and thereby 500 K would die (but probably not), you will certainly cause 2-300K deaths short term, destroy millions of livelihoods, create a serious depression, i.e. cause devastation to the country. So the question remains: why? Why go for the certain devastation to avert hypothetical problems? I did work in insurance and this is an absurd reaction to any situation.

166523 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to BJJ, 1, #476 of 2011 🔗

But my main point is: to even briefly consider to wreck the economy of the country to prepare for one however plausible scenario is reckless.

That is a point you are entitled to make. But has nothing to do with the reasonableness or otherwise of the RWC under consideration.

166566 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ BJJ, replying to Richard Pinch, #477 of 2011 🔗

Of course not. Reminds me though of the phrase: the irrelevance of your purity. Scientific advice in this case is not made in vitro. But as it is presented it lacks all pragmatism. If the only cure is to kill the patient, it is useless. You are now hanging on to the claim that this scenario could have come true, meaning that hypotheticals are of value. But this may be true in pure mathematics but maybe not in applied physics, i.e. real life situations.

166774 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to BJJ, 1, #478 of 2011 🔗

I think this is an elaborate way of saying that the answer must be wrong because you don’t like it.

166854 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ BJJ, replying to Richard Pinch, #479 of 2011 🔗

Are you maybe mixing a model projection up with science? I think there is a grave danger of a terrible mixup. People with academic credentials pose as proprietors of truth. This is the danger of our times. People are mixing up academic credentials with science. The next problem will be the so called AGW. Why should there be an answer to an RWC scenario? People think there is science behind it, when there is none.

166866 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to BJJ, 1, #480 of 2011 🔗

Am I? A model projection is not a scientific experiment, although it may be the precursor to one.

Why should there be an answer to an RWC scenario?

The answer to that was given by the Commons Science and Technology Committee (NRA is National Risk Assessment)

Reasonable worst case scenario
75. The second stage of the NRA process is assessing risks and their impacts. Risks are assessed using available historical, statistical and scientific data. Where possible, the assessment should take account of probable developments over the next five years.[ 75 ] Impacts are assessed against five main criteria:

  • the numbers of fatalities that are likely to be directly attributable to the emergency;
  • the extent of human illnesses or injury over a period following the onset of an emergency;
  • social disruption;
  • economic damage; and
  • the potential for significant outrage and anxiety to be caused to communities.[ 76 ]

76. The assessment leads to the development of a “reasonable worst case scenario” for every risk. The reasonable worst case scenario is “designed to exclude theoretically possible scenarios which have so little probability of occurring that planning for them would be likely to lead to disproportionate use of resources.”[ 77 ] The Government stated that:

They are not predictions of what will happen but of the worst that might realistically happen, and therefore we would expect most pandemics to be less severe and less widespread than the reasonable worst case. By planning for the reasonable worst case planners are assured that they have a high probability of meeting the demands posed by the hazard should it occur.

166969 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ BJJ, replying to Richard Pinch, #481 of 2011 🔗

This seems to me to have been handled very badly, re. this set up. Only the first of five bullet points being addressed in the media. I haven´t read the famous Sage minutes in full, but from what I have seen cited, there seems to be little discussion of the other points until now. So if people want to be apologetic towards the Government, it sounds as it is getting more and more difficult.

166224 ▶▶ TJN, replying to Richard Pinch, 1, #482 of 2011 🔗

Prof. Ferguson is at least entitled to be criticised for what he said or did, rather than for what he didn’t do or say.

RP is indisputably correct in making this statement, and I don’t understand the downvotes. But I believe that if Ferguson is judged on his actual statements and actions, rather than those unreliably attributed to him, the case against him will become even more damning.

In these way-out projections, he is always careful to include caveats he can point to when he turns out to be wrong – in the same way as Vallance and Whitty did with the ‘graph of doom’ a couple of weeks ago. But Ferguson knew that his apocalyptic figures would get the attention, which was what I believe he is after, so that he could set himself at the heart of policy-making.

I believe that he is a deeply manipulative, dishonest individual. In the aftermath of this current tragedy, as the inquiries unfold, it is sure that his actions and statements will be the subject of minute scrutiny – there are many scientists and academics out to nail him now. My feeling – largely subjective though that must currently be – is that his actions have been so dishonest as to merit criminal investigation. Whether or not his careful caveats are sufficient to get him off the hook is the central question.

As I’ve posted previously here today:

Whenever I see or listen to him [Ferguson], some inner sense tells me that there is something deeply, disturbingly wrong about him.
It’s as if there’s some inner warning system telling me I’m in the presence of evil.

But let him be judged on what he has actually done and said. To get a speculative calculation wrong by a multiple of 12 may be a mistake, incompetence, or lack of knowledge – and is likely deserving of ridicule rather than criminal sanction. But to set out to do what I believe he has done is another matter; and if this is indeed the case I for one want him to face the proper consequences, rather than mere ridicule. So let’s get to the truth.

165947 Caramel, 7, #483 of 2011 🔗

Another arrest in youknowwhichstate in Australia. Their crime? Apparently they went to the beach which is 12km outside of the 5km ‘bubble’.


Footage has shown police at a Melbourne beach facing a barrage of obscenities from a mob claiming they pushed a pregnant woman to the ground.
Victoria Police said the officers were patrolling Altona Beach on Saturday evening when they saw a group of people not wearing masks.
A police spokesman said the group became aggressive when approached and officers arrested a woman after she refused to give her name and address.
“She was subsequently arrested and, once her identity was established, found to be in breach of the Chief Health Officer directions by travelling more than 5km from her home,” the spokesman said.
Others confronted the police, saying the woman was pregnant and that they had pushed her to the ground.
The members were bombarded with filthy language during the encounter, which threatened to erupt into violence in front of other families.
“You’re f—ing p—ies,” one man shouts.
One officer tells a woman she is going to “get done (arrested) next”.
“F— you,” she shouts in reply.
The woman arrested was given several infringement notices and released, while several other people were also fined.
None of those hurling the abuse was arrested at the scene.
“Police will be conducting follow-up investigations in relation to the incident and other activity at the beach yesterday to ensure any further breaches of the Chief Health Officer are appropriately dealt with,” the force spokesman said.
“Victoria Police will continue to proactively patrol public spaces and will not hesitate to fine those who clearly and blatantly breach the directions of the Chief Health Officer.”

165956 John Stone, 1, #484 of 2011 🔗

BBC funding £35m from various government/globalist sources 2018 including £2.2m from Bill & Melinda Gates


165962 Poppy, replying to Poppy, 105, #485 of 2011 🔗

This isn’t about a virus anymore. It’s becoming the cultural zeitgeist – a sad indictment of what we have become as a people.

In a way, for me, one of the most devastating things about the ‘pandemic’ has not been the damaging effects of lockdown (even though they are utterly devastating) but how this crisis has harshly exposed how truly ugly humanity can be. Cruel, selfish, violent, ignorant, greedy, and cowardly. Is this all we’re capable of? There are some heroes who stand up to it but they are few and far between. The general consensus from the masses is a refusal to see the bigger picture, to see the far-reaching effects of a lockdown for a virus with a very low mortality rate (see CDC).

This isn’t about a virus anymore. When you take away the rights of young people, literally locking them in rooms and virtually starving them so they have to beg security for food; when the elderly are left to die alone in care homes and hospitals, terrified and separated from loved ones; when millions of jobs are lost and people are deprived of a living (it’s only been 8 months so the long-term effects of unemployment are yet to manifest); when a pregnant woman is beaten and arrested for not wearing a mask; when the media abdicates its duty to hold those who are inflicting this on us to account; when children are deprived of an education, innocence and childhood development for a disease that doesn’t affect them – how can anyone possibly say this is about a virus?

I can’t believe there’s talk of yet another lockdown. How can anyone say now, in light of the data and the economic/health/social effects of the first lockdown, that this is possibly a proportionate response. It isn’t.

Everyone just seems rather exhausted and broken now. Tired of restrictions, starting to wake up to the fact that something isn’t right but not having the time or inclination to put their finger on it. It’s really sad and I’m worried that most people will become just too tired to fight back; too used to merely existing and leading flat, colourless lives that consist of endless Groundhog days of always working from home, never going out or exploring anywhere, or meeting new people.

Things seem incredibly bleak, but I imagine things felt bleak in 1914 and 1941 – years which saw much worse events than this pathetic ‘pandemic’. This is why we must never lose hope, because hope is trust and faith that the future will get better without there necessarily being evidence for it in the present. Keep hope, and they can never win. I think it was No Lockdown on Twitter who said that if you’re not scared of the virus, you are already far more powerful than you think you are, even if it doesn’t feel like it.

165977 ▶▶ stewart, replying to Poppy, 24, #486 of 2011 🔗

Couldn’t agree more. We think that because now we have clever electronic tools we are a different set of people to the ones that have stood by enabling all the atrocities of the past. We aren’t. We are the exact same species. The only thing that stops us from descending into barbarism is our daily commitment to behave decently and constructively.

165992 ▶▶▶ CGL, replying to stewart, 6, #487 of 2011 🔗

Which may not last too much longer.

167721 ▶▶▶▶ Rowan, replying to CGL, #488 of 2011 🔗

And of course why should it! Behaving decently and constructively only allows demented Boris and his sick henchmen to pile on yet more life threatening and soul destroying restrictions. It should be clear to all by now, that that our warped government is waging a war against its own people. A war on behalf of the mega rich, who want a large scale reduction of the global population. The coming Covid-19 vaccines will be their main weapon of elimination.

166649 ▶▶▶ Jakehadlee, replying to stewart, 3, #489 of 2011 🔗

We are still enabling atrocities, we have just outsourced slavery and worker exploitation to the Far East whole still buying all clothes and electronics at low prices.

One of the biggest causes of destruction in history is the misplaced belief in the idea of some “Fall” from the true, virtuous nature of humanity and the consequent need to get us back this perfect state at any cost. It’s been the cause of every evil doctrine from Communism to Christianity to Isis.

The reality is there has been no fall and there is no promised land of perfect society – we are a nasty, vicious and dangerous species and if we accept that we can deal with how to mitigate it instead of chasing a fantasy that we are somehow better.

167029 ▶▶▶▶ David McCluskey, replying to Jakehadlee, #490 of 2011 🔗

Jakehadlee, I think I may (irrevocably!) downvoted you but I was trying to give you an up vote.

165999 ▶▶ EllGee, replying to Poppy, 8, #491 of 2011 🔗

Great post

166018 ▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Poppy, 16, #492 of 2011 🔗

Poppy, it wasn’t ever about the virus, I saw that in March.

166062 ▶▶▶ TJN, replying to Winston Smith, 12, #493 of 2011 🔗

Maybe you beat me to it by a few days.

By mid March I was conscious that the news broadcasts were essentially emotional manipulation, having been unconsciously aware of it for some time before that.

After I saw Knut Wittkowski on Perspectives in early April I knew it was all bollocks, and strongly suspected something else was going on other than incompetence.

But the fundamental question remains: if not the virus, what is it all about?

The utter failure of our institutions, and the sheer craven manipulative selfishness and egotism, dressed up as virtue, of a great many of the senior people therein, is about the best answer I can come up with at the moment.

This doesn’t imply an organised conspiracy, by some Bond villain-like figure; simply cynical exploitation for selfish and egotistical ends of so many of those in positions of responsibility in our institutions.

167761 ▶▶▶▶ Rowan, replying to TJN, -1, #494 of 2011 🔗

Conspiracy is really all that’s left, once you rule out incompetence.

167749 ▶▶▶ Rowan, replying to Winston Smith, -1, #495 of 2011 🔗

Yes, it’s was always about control and depopulation. Those carrying out this scam and the governments they have corrupted will not be stopped by reason or logic.

166024 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Poppy, 13, #496 of 2011 🔗

Well said Poppy and yeah, all this has become clear now – it was never about the virus. If it was, they would just have let us carry on while shielding the vulnerable and letting the virus naturally peter out.

166030 ▶▶ TJN, replying to Poppy, 19, #497 of 2011 🔗

Great post Poppy – thanks for taking the time to write it and express these thoughts, although I guess it’s a form of catharsis.

Your second paragraph is spot on: what an awful light is being shone on many of our fellow countrymen and women. Regarding your third paragraph: I hope and trust that in the fullness of time we will see criminal prosecutions against those responsible.

I would have added a further feature to your post: the potentially devastating effect this will have on the Third World. Anything we are suffering in the western World as a consequence of these measures will almost certainly pale into insignificance to what will likely unfold in the poorest parts of the world. I hope to God I’m wrong, as it absolutely isn’t their fault.

These lockdowns are stupidity, selfishness and sadism dressed up as virtue.

Regarding 1940-1: my grandparents lived through those days, and were bombed out of their house. They used to talk about the war a lot, but I never got any sense from them that they had panicked or been overly pessimistic about how things would work out. They just seem to have been quietly confident that all would be well in the end, and went about their daily lives accordingly. We’re a different breed now.

166056 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to TJN, 3, #498 of 2011 🔗

Big effect on the Third World also due to Gates using them as ‘lab rats’ to test the vaccines..

167793 ▶▶▶▶ Rowan, replying to Carrie, -1, #499 of 2011 🔗

The vaccines are the perfect tool for depopulation and as you say, Gates has been experimenting on the third world for many years, leaving hundreds of thousands maimed and dead in the process.

166071 ▶▶ Nsklent, replying to Poppy, 19, #500 of 2011 🔗

The only comment I would make is your reference to the world wars – while I understand the reason for the reference, psychologically this could be considered more challenging as the enemy is not external, where you can gather as a united front as a country to fight. The enemy is within, our own government seeking destruction of the country and its people, whether by its own incompetence or more malign intentions. There is not a united front, so you are also ‘at war’ with your fellow citizens, family and friends ifyou are on opposing fronts of for or against these measures. Civil wars are always considered the most devastating of wars. Equally restrictions in the war made sense – curfew, well yes, with planes seeking to find lights as an indication of potential bombing sites, food shortages, understandable. But the current draconian restrictions taint every aspect of our lives, even intimate relationships if you are in a local lockdown, and with no exit strategy on the current farce, the psychological impact, I fear, is incredibly high.

166219 ▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Nsklent, 4, #501 of 2011 🔗

Yes I agree, this is a war being waged on the masses of this country by a small number of others who swear allegiance to another ‘foreign power’. The people need to root out these foreign actors and deal with them accordingly. The problem is, many of them are ‘in drag’.

166391 ▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to Nsklent, 4, #502 of 2011 🔗

Very good point, I totally agree with you and thanks for adding. The psychological effects will surely be devastating but they will manifest very slowly and subtly I imagine so people won’t be immediately aware of how damaging this really is.

166644 ▶▶▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to Poppy, 2, #503 of 2011 🔗

The psychological effects will probably lead to many people, hopefully a small minority, who are going to need their hands held for the rest of their lives.

166842 ▶▶▶ Sceptic Hank, replying to Nsklent, #504 of 2011 🔗

Spot on. That’s why it’s much more difficult to win – and they know it. But I still think the sheer absurdity of what is going on will expose them, and from then on it’s just a matter of time.

167799 ▶▶▶▶ Rowan, replying to Sceptic Hank, -1, #505 of 2011 🔗

Yes, but the masses will have to awaken soon and not bare their arms for the Gates depopulating vaccines. Once injected they are doomed and they will likely take the rest of us with them.

166179 ▶▶ Sue, replying to Poppy, 3, #506 of 2011 🔗

As usual a good thought provoking post Poppy! I’ve always held the belief that ‘civilisation is skin deep’. We are human and survival instinct takes over to protect ourselves when stressed by life events and scarcity of resources. This brings out the negative behaviour response e.g. selfishness, greed, mistrust etc as you say. You see this in every day life e.g. arguing over car parking spaces; people panic buying; selling goods at over inflated prices etc the list goes on – I think it’s self preservation.

166770 ▶▶ wat tyler, replying to Poppy, 2, #507 of 2011 🔗

Things will get better Poppy and everyone will pull through.The sooner everyone on this site puts all arguments and disagreements to one side about what the causes of this were or if its all planned and all the other shit and just puts all our efforts into ending the lockdown and getting rid of those foul masks the sooner we will be liberated .

166968 ▶▶ James Leary #KBF, replying to Poppy, 2, #508 of 2011 🔗

I can sum that up. The Establishment comprises the wrong people.

167124 ▶▶ NappyFace, replying to Poppy, #509 of 2011 🔗

“Everyone just seems rather exhausted and broken now. Tired of restrictions, starting to wake up to the fact that something isn’t right but not having the time or inclination to put their finger on it.”

Sums it up PERFECTLY.

167804 ▶▶▶ Rowan, replying to NappyFace, #510 of 2011 🔗

They will need to make the time or they will be finished.

165970 stewart, 22, #511 of 2011 🔗

Far from undermining the sceptic cause, the infection of Trump and much of his entourage demonstrate how completely futile lockdowns and distancing measures ultimately are.

I would say that once they all shake their illnesses off, including the morbidly obese Christie, the case for just getting on with life will be stronger than ever.

165986 calchas, replying to calchas, 8, #512 of 2011 🔗

So, let’s take the argument that world leaders ‘panicked’ in March.

Then, why did Dan Andrews the PM of Victoria, Australia wait until early August to ‘panic’ as much as he did and why has he ‘panicked’ so particularly hard.

After all, by that time he should have seen the mess that ‘panicking’ causes.

166026 ▶▶ Julian, replying to calchas, 4, #513 of 2011 🔗

Maybe he just fancied the easy power you get from governing through fear

166110 ▶▶ Mark, replying to calchas, 2, #514 of 2011 🔗

Southern hemisphere wasn’t hit until later, generally (it’s seasonal like other cold coronaviruses) and especially in relatively isolated locations such as NZ and Australia they could indulge the fantasy of isolating themselves from the world for longer.

And probably what Julian said, as far as why he panicked so hard when he did.

166180 ▶▶ p02099003, replying to calchas, #515 of 2011 🔗

Quite simple March in the northern hemisphere is approximately August in the southern hemisphere in terms of season. No need to panic in the late summer as there’s been plenty of UV.

166233 ▶▶▶ Jonathan Palmer, replying to p02099003, 3, #516 of 2011 🔗

The point he was making is that the Australians had 6 months of data on Covid.They would know that it is not an existential threat;so why the overblown police state measures

166386 ▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Jonathan Palmer, #517 of 2011 🔗

Because their government and their media and social elites fully bought into the northern hemisphere elites’ delusion that covid was an end times plague that we had only prevented from killing everyone already by the skin of our teeth, and the stern daddying of Big Brother.

166628 ▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to calchas, #518 of 2011 🔗


165987 Victoria, 2, #519 of 2011 🔗

Many organisations are now making race biased training compulsory – even some global banks with offices in the UK

CDC training course on critical race theory canceled after whistleblower steps forward

Instead of trying to figure out ways to help disadvantaged Americans how to survive the coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic amid layoffs, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) was pushing for a staff training course based on the quasi-Marxist critical race theory (CRT).


165994 Bart Simpson, replying to Bart Simpson, 13, #520 of 2011 🔗

Great update Toby. I’m one of those who hasn’t seen a dentist since June (it was supposed to be my regular check up). I’m just fortunate that I was able to complete my treatment before lockdown happened but given I have hereditary periodontitis, my twice a year check ups are very important.

About time that several GPs have woken up to the abomination of lockdowns and social distancing having a disastrous effect on medical care in this county, however it made me laugh that one of the signatories was Sarah Jarvis who appeared on telly advising how to get children to get used to muzzles then threw a wobbly on twitter when she was called out advocating what is tantamount of child abuse and harming their long term physical and mental health.

166375 ▶▶ Thinkaboutit, replying to Bart Simpson, 2, #521 of 2011 🔗

We call her Scary Jarvis. Always fussing about something.

166772 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Thinkaboutit, #522 of 2011 🔗

First time I saw her in that abomination that is GMB, I did wonder if she was actually a doctor.

165997 Jay Berger, replying to Jay Berger, 6, #523 of 2011 🔗

I have read the NEJM article on a mandatory vaccination strategy and whilst it is sinister and I disagree with that idea in principle, it is not as far reaching, yet, as portrayed.
It is advocating this for the most at risk groups and key workers in some areas only, after an initial voluntary uptake period for THEM only, and after a much more stringent safety review than currently pursued.
It also distinguishes this from the past or existing mandatory vaccinations for children, and it refers to the specific situation in the US, where the states are apparently in charge- which would make it very unlikely that a US wide mandate for these groups, let alone for all of the population, can be pursued or realized, and thereby, the elusive country-wide herd immunity through vaccination also seems to be completely unrealistic for the USA!
Which should make similar ideas in Europe et.al., and particular international (travel) discriminations on that basis, equally unrealistic and impossible to introduce.
Fingers xd.

166027 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Jay Berger, 1, #524 of 2011 🔗

It is advocating this for the most at risk groups and key workers in some areas only, after an initial voluntary uptake period for THEM only,

All vaccinations are tested on healthy and young volunteers. Vaccines do not work well on the elderly and chronically sick. Key workers also have rights. Why should they put their health at risk with vaccines that do not prevent disease. Many also gets badly affected by vaccines including the development of auto immune diseases, just look at adverse reactions to vaccines and current claims via the government as drug companies are protected. many of these claims are never settled

166051 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Victoria, 1, #525 of 2011 🔗

Do the vulnerable and elderly not also have rights?

166622 ▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to Jay Berger, 1, #526 of 2011 🔗

While I agree with your comment, the fact that the NEJM believe this may be even remotely acceptable is worrying at best, and a sinister disregard of history at worst.

166000 Fingerache Philip., replying to Fingerache Philip., 8, #527 of 2011 🔗

I am sure that many fellow sceptics of a certain age can remember an episode of the original Star trek series which if I can remember correctly involved a story where in a solar system there were two planets who had been at war for centuries.
When after a couple of hundred years,the leaders decided that it would be a good idea to stop damage to infrastructure and simply just kill people without damage to property.
This was carried out by a computer algorithm which worked out how many people would be killed in any nuclear attack from both sides and picked people at random to present themselves and to voluntarily enter the “elimination chambers”
Obviously this was science fiction but when compared to the measures being enacted by this “shower” of a government it makes the plot of the aforementioned episode almost logical and sensible.
PS:I hope this won’t give them ideas

166175 ▶▶ Steve Hayes, replying to Fingerache Philip., 3, #528 of 2011 🔗

Remember how unbelievable it was at the time that everyone would have their own mobile personal communicator?

166196 ▶▶▶ Fingerache Philip., replying to Steve Hayes, #529 of 2011 🔗


166296 ▶▶ Paul, replying to Fingerache Philip., 2, #530 of 2011 🔗

Wasn’t that the thinking behind the idea of the Neutron bomb in the 1980s,remove people but leave buildings untouched ?.

166831 ▶▶▶ Mabel Cow, replying to Paul, #531 of 2011 🔗
166003 Howie59, replying to Howie59, 11, #532 of 2011 🔗

“Well, well, well, erm, I completely understand what people are saying but this the only way.”

Boris response to every question posed to him by Andrew Marr this morning. Completely unchallenged throughout. Gutter journalism.

166049 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Howie59, 4, #533 of 2011 🔗

‘The only way’ because he is doing what Gates and co have told him to do…

166172 ▶▶ Steve Hayes, replying to Howie59, 2, #534 of 2011 🔗

Did you notice that Boris and Marr were not observing two metre distancing?

166222 ▶▶▶ Howie59, replying to Steve Hayes, 2, #535 of 2011 🔗

Yes. The same can be said of many programmes of late, Match of the day being another.

Boris looked a dishevelled figure. Did you notices the cursory glances to camera on the odd occasion when his thoughts were in sync with what he was saying.

As a side note, no-one ever seems to question the adverse effect that insomnia or forced lack of sleep has on decision-making.

166288 ▶▶▶▶ Paul, replying to Howie59, #536 of 2011 🔗

I was thinking how dare Johnson,sat there like a great fat lump of Lard,be smiling and grinning with his big media pal when he has ruined and cost the lives of so many people through his actions.

166197 ▶▶ Nottingham69, replying to Howie59, 2, #537 of 2011 🔗

Yes softball all the way. Marr if he wanted to or was allowed to could have blown the whole scam this morning.

166298 ▶▶ annie, replying to Howie59, #538 of 2011 🔗

He does not understand what any sane person is saying.
E pur’ si muove.

166007 Jay Berger, replying to Jay Berger, 29, #539 of 2011 🔗

Dentists in Germany reopened after Easter. The do not do anything differently than before, no PPE other than the masks they wore before Corona already.
The UK policy in this regard is just completely crazy, and very harmful and dangerous for the population.

166019 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Jay Berger, 16, #540 of 2011 🔗

The UK Government is denying all but Corona virus patients access to health care and this includes dentistry. Absolutely shocking! Anyone still thinking the medical care from the NHS is great should hang their heads in shame.

166305 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Victoria, 5, #541 of 2011 🔗

And this criminal negligence is fully provable. Come the Coronaberg Trials, the doctors will have nowhere to hide.

166043 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Jay Berger, 9, #542 of 2011 🔗

Need to get someone like Desmond Swayne to ask Hancock about that in Parliament…

The advantage of doing it in Parliament is that Hansard will record all Hancock’s lies. Remember Hansard transcripts can be used by Simon Dolan in his case, because the case is all about proportionality in relation to the ‘threat’ of CV19.

Politico reckons that the main reason the Speaker did not allow the Brady amendment was that any discussion on rights and proportionality etc in Parliament would give ‘fuel’ to Dolan’s case, which would all be on record in Hansard.

166086 ▶▶▶ bluemoon, replying to Carrie, 2, #543 of 2011 🔗

But he’d just keep repeating, NHS open for business NHS open for business NHS……….

166128 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to bluemoon, 3, #544 of 2011 🔗

If Swayne could be furnished with lots of concrete examples (get people to email him) then that might help..

But yes, the way he treated that Indian MP the other day (not answering the question and just saying ‘I won’t have this divisive language’) does not fill me with much hope.
Anything Swayne or other MPs say will also be recorded though..

166169 ▶▶▶ Steve Hayes, replying to Carrie, 1, #545 of 2011 🔗

Lindsay Hoyle explicitly referred to legal challenge as his reason for not taking any amendments.

166614 ▶▶▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to Steve Hayes, 1, #546 of 2011 🔗

At least it shows Dolan’s rattled their cage. Hard.

166012 Tyneside Tigress, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 11, #547 of 2011 🔗

The comments coming out of Tom Bower’s book are as informative from a chronological perspective as they are explosive in exposing the sheer scale of the incompetence at the heart of government. Boris, Cummings, Whitty and Vallance all need to be hung out to dry, each for specific reasons, but leaving that to one side for now.

We now have the airing of the early version of the ‘death model’ dated back to the 25 February 2020 SAGE meeting. I cannot recall, but was that evident in the ‘minutes of minutes’ of that meeting?

Working back, Ferguson was therefore primed to produce the model in the days running up to that meeting. The question still remains, when was the modelling solicited, and who requested it?

In my view, to determine whether this is purely cock-up or something more sinister, we need to have all behind-the-scenes documentation from around 23/24 January 2020 (the date when Richard Horton did his volte face on Twitter). All email and text traffic needs to be seized to include the communications of SAGE members, key Cabinet ministers and their advisers, and those in the wider scientific community associated with this.

166044 ▶▶ Old Normal, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 4, #548 of 2011 🔗

Minutes of meetings? That’s a novel concept north of the border where Sturgeon just said everything was done verbally and no records kept.

166060 ▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Old Normal, 2, #549 of 2011 🔗

The Tony Blair way!

166345 ▶▶ TJN, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 1, #550 of 2011 🔗

This is surely correct. All the documentation must be put out there, and witness statements taken about what was said .

Also, whether or not Ferguson was primed to produce that garbage is a very pertinent question. One of the most striking things about the UK response is how policy makers are still stuck in the narrative as it existed last March. Is that because they want to be?

In my experience of historical research, the whole thing stinks to high heaven.

166013 calchas, replying to calchas, 2, #551 of 2011 🔗

Here’s Kary Mullis Nobel winner and inventor of the PCR:

“If you do it well, you can find almost anything in anybody”


166016 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to calchas, 1, #552 of 2011 🔗

So true, this test should not be used for Corona virus. Cases = positive tests

166015 mrchriz, replying to mrchriz, 4, #553 of 2011 🔗

We have a major problem in that all these good articles are behind paywall’s massively reducing the people that are going to read them.
The Grauniad and the BBC website are free to access. No broke students or low income people are paying for a news subscription. The right wing needs something similar (the daily fail doesn’t count).

In balance the left wing needs a high quality sceptical publisher but that’s not going to happen either.

166029 ▶▶ bucky99, replying to mrchriz, #554 of 2011 🔗

Somehow needs to turn a profit, though.

166034 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to mrchriz, #555 of 2011 🔗

Yeah but the Graun are constantly putting out the begging bowl due to their continuing abysmal circulation.

166020 dpj, replying to dpj, 1, #556 of 2011 🔗

Yet another public statement completely contradicting his governments policy https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-54407656

166035 ▶▶ Old Normal, replying to dpj, #557 of 2011 🔗

What does any of it mean? Politicians just spout words and it’s like a different language. He’s got as much clue now as he did in January.

166022 Banjones, replying to Banjones, 4, #558 of 2011 🔗

Whenever I see or listen to Ferguson, I’m staggered than anyone would put any trust in him. Especially when they know what a pig’s ear he made of those other so-called ”predictions”.

166075 ▶▶ TJN, replying to Banjones, 8, #559 of 2011 🔗

Whenever I see or listen to him, some inner sense tells me that there is something deeply, disturbingly wrong about him.

It’s as if there’s some inner warning system telling me I’m in the presence of evil.

166309 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to TJN, 2, #560 of 2011 🔗

Yes, it’s a kind of moral stench.

166023 Charlie Blue, replying to Charlie Blue, 3, #561 of 2011 🔗

Just heard radio ad for Superdrug offering antibody testing. An interesting development. I wonder whether they will be swamped or whether those with the money to spend will realise that even if they test positive it will be of no practical use to them?

166039 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Charlie Blue, #562 of 2011 🔗

Can they get your DNA that way, out of interest?

166111 ▶▶▶ BJJ, replying to Carrie, 2, #563 of 2011 🔗

Yes, that is one of the incentives of this testing for a cold.

166124 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to BJJ, #564 of 2011 🔗

I knew they could get it through the PCR test, but not that the antibody test also caught it..

166137 ▶▶ court, replying to Charlie Blue, 2, #565 of 2011 🔗

My wife pointed this out to me last month, and I said there’s no point going for one as nowhere will accept it as a ‘Get out of jail free card’

166401 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to court, 1, #566 of 2011 🔗

It’s *only* useful to the government – DNA info, like other personal info, is worth a lot of money to Big pharma..

166033 Nic, replying to Nic, 7, #567 of 2011 🔗

50 years ago there would have been no mass testing , and it would have been all b now

166252 ▶▶ leggy, replying to Nic, 5, #568 of 2011 🔗

Wasn’t any mass testing in 68 when HK flu killed 80k in the UK. My parents don’t even remember it. No way we’re forgetting this.

166037 Bart Simpson, replying to Bart Simpson, 6, #569 of 2011 🔗

Another one bites the dust:


And many people still think that lockdowns, antisocial distancing and wearing muzzles are A Good Thing?

166055 ▶▶ Victoria, replying to Bart Simpson, 6, #570 of 2011 🔗

Yes, as this farce of a lockdown continues it is dragging the economy into oblivion.

Many big businesses will be closing one by one and eventually very few will be left that could provide jobs/income. In addition pension funds will be severely affected as these organisations will ‘fall out’ of their investment portfolios.

Very bad times are on the way. We have seen nothing yet!

166074 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Victoria, 5, #571 of 2011 🔗

Good point. I also thought that Cineworld closing is bad news especially for the young as many of them have their first job experience at somewhere like a cinema.

And yep, their demise would also result into pensions becoming worthless.

166223 ▶▶▶▶ davews, replying to Bart Simpson, 3, #572 of 2011 🔗

Big new flagship Cineworld in our new town centre opened a couple of years ago. Another sign of the end of the high street.

166057 ▶▶ dpj, replying to Bart Simpson, 6, #573 of 2011 🔗

I had been looking forward to seeing Tenet but didn’t go to see it as I was not prepared to visit any business that treats me like a leper with ridiculous rules instead of as a valued customer. As pointed out by lots of lawyers online government ‘rules’ were actually only guidance and could be overruled by normal risk assessment. Cineworld along with lots of other businesses had chance to make a stand and not insist on masks etc but didn’t so struggling to feel sympathetic for them.

166066 ▶▶▶ Chris John, replying to dpj, 1, #574 of 2011 🔗

Tenet is rubbish

166099 ▶▶▶▶ James Leary #KBF, replying to Chris John, 1, #575 of 2011 🔗

It’s an egotistical mess. I could just about wear Matthew McConaughey hiding in a bookcase communicating with his daughter via gravity, but this is a step too far.

166118 ▶▶▶▶ Mark H, replying to Chris John, #576 of 2011 🔗


166070 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to dpj, 5, #577 of 2011 🔗

Exactly. That’s why I’ve been boycotting cinemas and concerts – I’m not inclined to give my custom to a business that treats me like a leper.

Of course the companies will try to justify and say that they implemented the guidance due to insurance and liabilities but surely the fact that their venues are ghost towns should save sent them a message that the vast majority of people would have happily gone if there was no social distancing and masks.

166577 ▶▶▶ Polemon2, replying to dpj, 1, #578 of 2011 🔗

Like with positive test translating to cases, guidance translates to rules. It is the new language.
Seriously, I wonder if some of these businesses really want customers back or just see it as an excuse to shut down.

166064 ▶▶ arfurmo, replying to Bart Simpson, 4, #579 of 2011 🔗

I can’t remember the last time I was at a cinema but I wouldn’t go with all the restrictions even if you paid me (and I don’t mean the cost of the ticket).

166081 ▶▶ court, replying to Bart Simpson, 5, #580 of 2011 🔗

Cinemas have took the right brunt of this, studios delaying and VODing their new releases, stupid bubble seating, ludicrous mask diktat.

I filled in a survey for Cineworld last month asking what precautions would bring me back to the cinema. Obviously I gave them both barrels.

166782 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to court, 1, #581 of 2011 🔗

Agree. I filled out a survey for Curzon cinemas and pretty much told them where to go with their Covid “safety” diktat.

166311 ▶▶ Two-Six, replying to Bart Simpson, 2, #582 of 2011 🔗

I am not sure I am sad about cinema’s closing. All they do is pump out mind-bending propaganda. Almost every film that is made is there just to brainwash people,to nudge the sheeple a bit more along the road to building their own dystopian prison planet.

Hollywood is poison.

166397 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Two-Six, 3, #583 of 2011 🔗

Time to do things the old way, get a large screen at home and have friends round, and choose more uplifting films to watch. No adverts involved either!

166437 ▶▶▶▶ dpj, replying to Carrie, 1, #584 of 2011 🔗

Can’t even do that at the moment in Scotland as no one is allowed in your home unless they live there!

166784 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Two-Six, 1, #585 of 2011 🔗

The film industry is pretty corrupt and posion but yeah, Hollywood is the worst offender.

I very barely go to the cinema but am not going to start going now. If they go bust, they have only themselves to blame.

166048 James Leary #KBF, replying to James Leary #KBF, 15, #586 of 2011 🔗

I’m at the ripping masks off people’s faces stage. Only because I’m certain a lot of them are wearing a smug smirk underneath. Especially when you see the eyes on the shelf above them slide over to my naked rebellion.

I remember seeing this kind of adoring uniformity before; then the crowds were on the Unter den Linden, and an open top Mercedes was driving slowly by.

In those days the party members were wearing swastikas instead of masks, and I would have been wearing a yellow patch.

Same mindless groupthink. The group came to regret it, eventually.

166085 ▶▶ Mark H, replying to James Leary #KBF, 4, #587 of 2011 🔗

If their heads are down and their eyes are avoiding contact with other eyes, they’re not wearing a smug grin.

166116 ▶▶▶ James Leary #KBF, replying to Mark H, 3, #588 of 2011 🔗

Some of the eyes sweep left and right like windscreen wipers, in a kind of mild panic. It’s like life itself worries them.

166202 ▶▶ Jay Berger, replying to James Leary #KBF, 6, #589 of 2011 🔗

Masks have already been compared to and judged as being tbe equivalent of the Hitler salute by leading German lockdown sceptics.
They are Gessler’s hats, nothing else.
And on top of that, they are dangerous and posing a health risk for the wearer, in particular children.

166790 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to James Leary #KBF, 1, #590 of 2011 🔗

Many of the people I see muzzled look dead behind the eyes and have demoralised body language.

They have no stomach in fighting this tyranny and are using the muzzle and their mobile phones to numb the horrors of their lives.

166059 kf99, replying to kf99, 12, #591 of 2011 🔗

The Muslim burial without autopsy angle is very interesting. Should surely cut through to the mainstream media if we have a few more examples?

166120 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to kf99, 1, #592 of 2011 🔗

Good; how can we get such examples though?

166067 RickH, replying to RickH, 22, #593 of 2011 🔗

I’m getting thoroughly p’d off with argy-bargy about the precise numnbers of ‘false positives from the PCR tests.

Don’t get me wrong – I think that illustrative numbers are vital in showing the degree to which false positives from this test can, even on best estimates, lead to barmy outcomes.

But, in the end, it misses the central point, which is that the PCR test, because of its disconnect with the key reality of an actual, infective virus – is simply not fit for purpose. Just as its inventor said .

The chain of assumptions between the material presented to the testing procedure, and its ‘result’ – from assumed relevant RNA to amplified DNA allows in so many sources of error in identifying actual illness, that using any aggregated results to indicate actual levels in the community is – frankly – barmy nonsense. Even if one gives a little latitude in accepting that variation might represent relative changes in incidence.

The ONS data, whilst seemingly more carefully gleaned is still subject to these error factors.

A Ct threshold is still a matter of debate – and varies – clearly vitiating any individual or aggregated results. And that’s just a start, before we get to the ‘gold standard’ of proper authentication.

So the numbers are just the angels’ footprints on the head of a pin.

The simple, clear, unambiguous and certain fact is that PCR testing is, in this context simply a junk heap of random debris, and we come back to Farr’s insight that such ‘evidence’ is just ‘assumption.

Which brings the whole ‘Track and Trace’ edifice, as presently conceived, tumbling down – a uselessness which sanely written previous strategies highlighted.

166078 ▶▶ BJJ, replying to RickH, 6, #594 of 2011 🔗

Judging by the no of deaths there is no pandemic.

166094 ▶▶▶ RickH, replying to BJJ, 5, #595 of 2011 🔗

In formal terms (this surprises people) there was a ‘pandemic’ – because the WHO’s definition is just of a disease that is globally widespread. It requires no definition of severity or a mortality level.

More importantly, there was no epidemic in the community – which requires (GP surveillance figures) an incidence of 40 per 10,000.


166164 ▶▶▶▶ Nigel Sherratt, replying to RickH, 2, #596 of 2011 🔗

Pandemic is big pharma’s magic word, it unlocks huge wealth. There’s that difficult moment down at the crossroads but the devil’s bedside manner is excellent.

166165 ▶▶▶▶ BJJ, replying to RickH, #597 of 2011 🔗

Incidence meaning? Hospitalization?

166181 ▶▶▶▶▶ RickH, replying to BJJ, #598 of 2011 🔗

Identified symptoms (Yes, I know, that raises issues in itself).

166186 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ BJJ, replying to RickH, #599 of 2011 🔗

Are there any statistics kept on symptoms?

166082 ▶▶ Mark H, replying to RickH, 3, #600 of 2011 🔗

Exactly. All too often everyone is distracted by faulty presuppositions and we spend ages arguing them. False positives are essentially a straw man. Instead the focus should be on what the PCR test actually does .

166092 ▶▶ James Leary #KBF, replying to RickH, 5, #601 of 2011 🔗

I thought we were doing the curfew because we are ‘following Belgium’. Belgium has stopped using the PCR test because it’s useless.

166203 ▶▶▶ A. Contrarian, replying to James Leary #KBF, 3, #602 of 2011 🔗

As far as I can see we follow whichever country currently has the biggest increase in cases and deaths and the most draconian restrictions.

166109 ▶▶ mhcp, replying to RickH, 3, #603 of 2011 🔗

Following on from the links about PCR here and yesterday, it looks like to be used as a qualitative yes/no the amplication limit is 24 cycles. After that you get into increasing uncertainty and measuring noise.

I suspect that all of the tests used to denote Covid-19 in the UK are 35 cycles and above. Which means that:

a) we really have maybe 1000 people or less who could be claimed to have it
b) those suffering from the bad lung conditions may be experiencing a different condition or a combination of conditions, that have not been treated as best as they could (but that’s a small point as the conditions appeared new)
c) We are imprisoning people in homes based on a theoretical disease where a positive is simply a random number. – think Postcode Lottery in reverse.

166162 ▶▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to mhcp, 1, #604 of 2011 🔗

Perhaps a positive PCR test ought be followed up with a blood test for either presence of disease or antibodies. Still not 100% accurate, but close enough.

166174 ▶▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Nick Rose, 1, #605 of 2011 🔗

I see your point, Nick – but the information on antibodies doesn’t exactly inspire confidence in it as a sure-fire indicator, either

166191 ▶▶▶▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to RickH, 1, #606 of 2011 🔗

I don’t think we have a sure-fire indicator, just hoping we can find something that doesn’t spook countermeasures in panic…

166294 ▶▶▶▶ p02099003, replying to Nick Rose, 2, #607 of 2011 🔗

Antibodies will only be found in those who quite unwell, they’re only needed if the upper layers of the immune system cannot contain the infection. Think a castle, the moat is the first line, then the walls with the archers, the inner sanctum being the keep.
We are using 40-45 cycles here in the U.K..

166115 ▶▶ Andy Bee, replying to RickH, #608 of 2011 🔗

I’ve been following this thing since I first became sceptical in April and whilst I’ve watched several vids and read several articles on the subject, I still cannot completely get my head around what the PCR test actually does.

I ask people “can the PCR test actually differentiate between different viruses? i.e. can it definitively identify Sars-Cov-2? and I get told “Yes”.

It leaves me confused.

The FPR thing, however, is far easier to grasp and I think it works for most people to just be able to say “The case numbers are massively inflated”.

166159 ▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to RickH, 3, #609 of 2011 🔗

Trouble is Rick, there’s not a lot of sanity left. On one hand we have governments and their apologists doubling down on everything, very likely with their eyes fixed on the litigious future; and another set of hysterics allegedly on our side who report wild speculation as truth, especially if the name “Bill Gates” or the word “mandatory” get a mention.

166178 ▶▶▶ Jonathan Palmer, replying to Nick Rose, 2, #610 of 2011 🔗

Do you not think there are questions to answer about Gates’role,in all this?

166194 ▶▶▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to Jonathan Palmer, 2, #611 of 2011 🔗

Frankly yes I do. And big pharma. And a whole host of others neither you or me have probably even thought of. But first things first, let’s get the government’s ears pinned to the door. First we need to find out precisely what has led to the decisions and keep digging from there. The full truth will out, eventually.

166208 ▶▶▶▶▶ Jonathan Palmer, replying to Nick Rose, 3, #612 of 2011 🔗

We have the sage minutes.I don’t remember lockdown or Ferguson’s paper even being mentioned.
The key driver was the government.
I think the secrets will be safely stored under the official secrets act for 50 years.
The economy won’t last beyond Christmas unless restrictions are eased and listening to Johnson they are intending to carry on with them

166188 ▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Nick Rose, 2, #613 of 2011 🔗

I agree, Nick.

That’s why I think that relentless focus on the clearest factual arguments is essential.

It’s why I get p’d off with riding other hobby horses – it diffuses (and defuses) the key argument.

166192 ▶▶▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to RickH, 1, #614 of 2011 🔗


166198 ▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to RickH, 1, #615 of 2011 🔗

Agree completely.

166076 crimsonpirate, replying to crimsonpirate, 14, #616 of 2011 🔗

some good news to report. Visited two bars yesterday where bar service is still in place and no masks. Personal details could be given voluntarily.

166248 ▶▶ leggy, replying to crimsonpirate, 3, #617 of 2011 🔗

Similarly I visited a local pub with Mrs leggy yesterday – paid cash and was not coerced into T&T, completely at odds with my recent attempts at buying a pint in London.

166091 Awkward Git, replying to Awkward Git, 3, #618 of 2011 🔗

Can someone please tell me why this statement made on 30th January 2020 by the 4 CMOi s so frightening as this lead to all the coronavirus legislation being written:

“We have been working in close collaboration with international colleagues and the World Health Organization to monitor the situation in China and around the world.
In light of the increasing number of cases in China and using existing and widely tested models, the 4 UK Chief Medical Officers consider it prudent for our governments to escalate planning and preparation in case of a more widespread outbreak.
For that reason, we are advising an increase of the UK risk level from low to moderate. This does not mean we think the risk to individuals in the UK has changed at this stage, but that government should plan for all eventualities.
As we have previously said, it is likely there will be individual cases and we are confident in the ability of the NHS in England, Scotland and Wales and HSC in Northern Ireland to manage these in a way that protects the public and provides high quality care.
Chief Medical Officer for England, Professor Chris Whitty
Chief Medical Officer for Wales, Dr Frank Atherton
Chief Medical Officer for Scotland, Dr Catherine Calderwood
Chief Medical Officer for Northern Ireland, Dr Michael McBride”


I know what is the most frightening bit – it was not actually required until the first piece of legislation with coronavirus in the title was written and came into power on the 10th of February 2020 – so it was very prophetic.

DHSC under FOI request says no other information was given by the CMOs other than this one statement so either “they” knew the legislation was coming before 30th January 2020 or DHSC covering up something or DHSC covering their arse by going “see we never said anything was dangerous, speak to the Minister”.

166101 ▶▶ Mark H, replying to Awkward Git, 3, #619 of 2011 🔗

Factor in the much-ignored government announcement on 19th March that the 4 uk governments and the 4 UK public health bodies no longer considered CV19 to be a high consequence infectious disease, in part due to its low mortality.

Of course, lockdown apologists like to explain this away as the government covering its arse to allowing non-HCID hospitals to treat CV19 patients, but that doesn’t change the fact the UK’s 4 PHB stated that CV19 has a low mortality rate.

And then, 4 days later, Boris told us we’re locking down.

166119 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Mark H, 1, #620 of 2011 🔗

Did Gates come into the picture (ie talk to the UK government) during those 4 days?

166158 ▶▶▶▶ Jane in France, replying to Carrie, 2, #621 of 2011 🔗

Don’t know whether Gates had anything to do with it. But this article mentioned in Toby’s round-up a few days ago is well worth reading. It might have been China that was putting pressure on governments to lock up their citizens. https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/china-covid-lockdown-propaganda

166095 Mark H, 15, #622 of 2011 🔗

I’ve seen at least 2 ads on Facebook for a new Hyundai concept electric car. The marketing blurb explained that the car is more than a car, it’s your personal cinema and coffee shop.

Essentially the car is being marketed as a one-person bubble where you sit alone, drinking coffee and watching films.

Asides from this being a bizarre angle to market a car with, it’s also playing directly into the narrative that avoiding other people is now the norm, to the point where your fucking car helps you achieve this.

Global corporations don’t spend money on advertising and marketing without good reason. What do they know that us proles don’t?

166108 calchas, replying to calchas, 10, #623 of 2011 🔗

“There will be transformations of gigantic, historical proportion. The whole way of doing business and living that we have become accustomed to will be abandoned in the next 30 years”

Angela Merkel, speaking at Davos (World Economic Forum) in January 2020

166117 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to calchas, 6, #624 of 2011 🔗

Can we make a video of little clips like this and circulate it? Maybe linked to the QR codes that people are suggesting we create?

166125 Nobody2020, 9, #625 of 2011 🔗

If a leader says there is no choice or no other way then how can they claim to be leading?

166127 Steve Hayes, replying to Steve Hayes, 5, #626 of 2011 🔗

Why did Boris take the predictions of this serial doom-monger so seriously?

Is it because Boris is unable to understand statistical information? Is this why Matt Hancock (and the rest) does not understand the implications of the False Positive Rate? Is the government innumerate when it comes to Statistics? Is it that no one can explain these things to them because they will not admit (to themselves) that they are ignorant?

166138 ▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to Steve Hayes, 7, #627 of 2011 🔗

Most politicians are ignorant outside their professional field, which is politics of course! They are far from alone in that.

166259 ▶▶▶ Steve Hayes, replying to Nick Rose, 1, #628 of 2011 🔗

Any policy-maker should be capable of understanding statistical information. How else are they going to be capable of making policy decisions that effect millions?

166590 ▶▶▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to Steve Hayes, #629 of 2011 🔗


166144 ▶▶ OKUK, replying to Steve Hayes, 10, #630 of 2011 🔗

Whitty and Vallance must shoulder a lot of the blame. They could have rubbished Ferguson’s Fantasy Figures. They should have. They did not.

166463 ▶▶▶ DRW, replying to OKUK, 1, #631 of 2011 🔗

Common sponsors probably made sure of that.

166564 ▶▶▶ Thinkaboutit, replying to OKUK, 1, #632 of 2011 🔗

Whitty, Vallance, Ferguson and Hancock have been too busy burnishing each others egos.

166260 ▶▶ Recusant, replying to Steve Hayes, #633 of 2011 🔗

It’s because “scientists” now take the rule of bishops in our society. No politician could survive electorally after ignoring a scientist.

166266 ▶▶ Sue, replying to Steve Hayes, #634 of 2011 🔗

Because boris does not do ‘detail’ anyone can see that in his bluffing baffoon behaviour!! He just relies on others to inform him, learns a couple of numbers to spout in interviews/PMQ. He’s too busy grandstanding and fantasising he’s flippin churchill, which is isn’t!

166369 ▶▶▶ Steve Hayes, replying to Sue, 3, #635 of 2011 🔗

Boris told the House of Commons that there was evidence for the ten o’clock closing time. This morning Andrew Marr asked Boris what that evidence was. Boris asserted that the government had the evidence. He went on to say that the longer people socialised, the less they observed social distancing rules.

By the way, as Boris and Andrew discussed this, they were less than two metres apart.

166133 R G, 12, #636 of 2011 🔗

My father also lives in a North Wales coastal town (is it the same one, I wonder?) and has been unable to see a doctor since March. He has pleurisy and an unidentified respiratory condition that might be related to asbestos exposure. Fobbed off for months by idiots on the phone with “it must be asthma” and “oh well I have no idea what it is then”.

He managed to book a hospital appointment a few weeks ago, but even with a reference from the nurse practitioner, he had to play that game where they say there are no appointments, but if you’re assertive enough, they make one available for you.

Don’t get seriously ill in North Wales. It’s not much better in normal times either.

166134 Jane in France, replying to Jane in France, 1, #637 of 2011 🔗

One of the problems with Donald Trump is that he doesn’t stick to his guns. At one point he swore by hydroxychloroquine, but subsequently somebody must have turned him against it. Now it seems he’s being treated with Remdesivir, a very expensive drug developed by Gilead for ebola. According to the Tribune India – there is lots more information but that was the first article I found: “Remdesivir has to be used with extreme caution due to its potential for serious adverse effects including liver and kidney injury. Similarly, for Tocilizumab studies have not shown any benefits in mortality reduction. However, if used for patients with severe conditions, proper informed consent is required. Rampant use is to be discouraged since the effect of the drug is directed at the ‘cykotine storm’.” I don’t know if they’re also giving poor old Trump that second drug with the funny name, but they’ll probably try a bit of everything. I’m beginning to think he’ll be lucky to pull through.

166148 ▶▶ chaos, replying to Jane in France, 1, #638 of 2011 🔗

He’s not ill. He isn’t taking any drug.

166253 ▶▶ Recusant, replying to Jane in France, #639 of 2011 🔗

In fairness, it is well known that HCQ has side effects if you take it long term, it’s not good for your heart. It is one of the cheapest and best understood medicines in the world.

166317 ▶▶▶ Kevin 2, replying to Recusant, 4, #640 of 2011 🔗

Heart arrythmia’s are extremely rare even in long-term HCQ use for Lupus (1.5m in the US) and RA.

Rare possibility of retinopathy in long-term use.

Don’t buy in to the ‘it’s dangerous for the heart’ without evidence.

166560 ▶▶▶ Thinkaboutit, replying to Recusant, #641 of 2011 🔗

How long term do you need to take it for Covid?

166136 Nick Rose, replying to Nick Rose, 2, #642 of 2011 🔗

This article (from May of this year) should be of interest to those with a legal mind:


166155 ▶▶ Nigel Sherratt, replying to Nick Rose, 1, #643 of 2011 🔗

This is being pushed hard now, most class actions enrich lawyers and a few favoured ‘charities’.

166143 chaos, replying to chaos, 9, #644 of 2011 🔗

The madness continues .. like Boris, Trump pretends to be ill.. the mainstream media doubles down, Trump’s case is now illness.. at what point will the likes of Hitchens and Young and Delingpole accept the conspiracies are true? When they are asked to take their vaccine to get their digital ID – wiithout which they cannot partake in society?

When Boris regresses brexit, which he will.. things will get even more interesting.

166152 ▶▶ chaos, replying to chaos, -2, #645 of 2011 🔗

aw.. a low IQ sheepy thumbed me down.. boo hoo

166232 ▶▶ calchas, replying to chaos, #646 of 2011 🔗

It’s good to have a few doing good work ‘within the paradigm’.

166153 Nobody2020, replying to Nobody2020, 16, #647 of 2011 🔗

Imagine if a pension advisor regularly used graphs showing how investments could grow exponentially claiming they weren’t predictions but merely possible futures.

How long would they be allowed to practice for?

166210 ▶▶ Tenchy, replying to Nobody2020, 1, #648 of 2011 🔗

Excellent point.

166364 ▶▶ djaustin, replying to Nobody2020, 1, #649 of 2011 🔗

They do – but the assumed growth rate is about 2-5% per annum not per week. With such low exponential growth, they appear linear on timescales of a few years. But rest assured, that 40 year projection is exponential – 1.02*1.02*1.02*…*1.02 40 times is only 2.21x, but 1.05 compounded 40 times is 7x. So they try and balance future risk by being relatively conservative. The only real differences with epidemic predictions are rate of growth and timescale of interest. you will find that the degree of imprecision is the same over the timescale of interest. Fortunately for pensions, investments can be adjusted during the 40 years.

166157 Stoic, replying to Stoic, 11, #650 of 2011 🔗

A small factual correction to the piece. Ferguson did not forecast 50,000 human deaths from Foot and Mouth, which is an animals’ disease, but 50,000 human deaths from exposure to BSE. He got that spectacularly wrong.

166286 ▶▶ Will, replying to Stoic, 6, #651 of 2011 🔗

And precipitated many more suicides in the farming community than ended up actually dying of vCJD.

166161 calchas, replying to calchas, 13, #652 of 2011 🔗

Hydroxychloroquine had been available over the counter in France for more than 60 years.

On January 13th 2020 it was made prescription-only.


166200 ▶▶ 2 pence, replying to calchas, #653 of 2011 🔗

Hydroxychloroquine Master list.
Fascinating read if anyone interested.



166338 ▶▶ RickH, replying to calchas, 2, #654 of 2011 🔗

Just to step back a little – that might have been a wise action to prevent a bog-roll reaction from the simplistically credulous.

166193 A. Contrarian, replying to A. Contrarian, 1, #655 of 2011 🔗

I posted this yesterday but it was quite late in the day and I think it got missed.

Am I right that the Covid ZOE study/app is purely symptom based with no need for confirmation by a positive PCR test? I’ve read their guff but it’s not very clear. If so surely it’s mostly just tracking common colds and flu, plus it’s encouraging people to report every symptom under the sun that they think might be covid related, but with no proof?

It also seems to be quite different from the governments map of cases. For example Luton is shown to be pretty clear on the ZOE map but has lots of cases on the govt map and is being threatened with yet another local lockdown.

166257 ▶▶ Sarigan, replying to A. Contrarian, 4, #656 of 2011 🔗

As far as I understand it, yes. I downloaded at the beginning of all this. It asked if you feel well and healthy. If not, select symptoms. As we know much crossover.

No proof required, no clinical check. They then base the national estimates from those numbers.

166409 ▶▶▶ A. Contrarian, replying to Sarigan, 1, #657 of 2011 🔗

Awful! And it claims to be approved by the NHS!

166596 ▶▶ Silke David, replying to A. Contrarian, #658 of 2011 🔗

Of course it would show low cases for Luton if only a handful of people in Luton have downloaded it and are updating it.
The government take their stats from testing, which seems to be everyone’s favourite past time to do these days, and then calculating how many people do not get tested. They always say so many tested, so therefor add at least 10% on top. Just to scare people.

166206 p02099003, replying to p02099003, 3, #659 of 2011 🔗

With regards to POTUS having low oxygen saturations, this has been noted in the U.K..
We expect anyone who doesn’t have COPD, to have oxygen saturation level of more than 95%. If their saturations are between 90% and 95% then they’re given oxygen. Below 90% they are definitely considered to have hypoxaemia with danger of developing hypoxia, where the organs don’t get enough oxygen particularly the brain. They have difficulty breathing and definitely find speech all but impossible.
What was found in the U.K. were patients sitting up and holding conversations whilst their oxygen saturations were being reported by monitoring as being 50%. I don’t know whether the blood oxygen levels were showing the same. If they were then there needs to be a re-evaluation of our understanding of respiratory physiology.

166213 ▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to p02099003, 6, #660 of 2011 🔗

If I had a patient with sats of 50% whatever they were doing, I’d check the probe 🤔

166220 ▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Winston Smith, #661 of 2011 🔗

Hands up if you understand pulse oxymetry?

166241 ▶▶▶▶ calchas, replying to Winston Smith, 3, #662 of 2011 🔗

I think about nothing else 🙂

166795 ▶▶▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to calchas, #663 of 2011 🔗

🤣 🤣 🤣

166348 ▶▶▶▶ Kevin 2, replying to Winston Smith, 2, #664 of 2011 🔗

Parts of France have promoted cheap finger oxymeters for home use, because it can help the ‘worried well’ distinguish between anxiety/panic-related breathlessness, and possible symptomatic Covid illness.
About a tenner from Amazon. Though I expect the version used by the NHS costs about £600.
Citizens in NY who arrived at ER departments with breathlessness found themselves on mechanical ventilation within hours, and 80% died.

166388 ▶▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Kevin 2, #665 of 2011 🔗

Easily obtainable on eBay and amazon. My mum and I each have one, made by TempIR. Interestingly I have seen nurses using the same model..so if it is good enough for the NHS it is good enough for us.

166794 ▶▶▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to Kevin 2, #666 of 2011 🔗

Years ago, the standard pulse oxymeter was around £2k, probes =£150.

The probes were very fragile.

166393 ▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to Winston Smith, 3, #667 of 2011 🔗

My wife has this strange condition where after a procedure in which she is sedated, her pressure drops to something like 90 over 75 for a time. They have to elevate her feet. It then creeps back up over about 15 minutes.

Scares the crap out of the nurses, even nurses in her own unit where she had the procedure being done. She always tells them what to expect and what to do.

166411 ▶▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to mhcp, 1, #668 of 2011 🔗

Same thing happens to me!

166283 ▶▶▶ p02099003, replying to Winston Smith, 1, #669 of 2011 🔗

That was my first reaction as clinicians have a tendency to follow the machines and not the patient, calling a cardiac arrest when the machines show a flat line despite the patient sitting up and talking! Apparently the machines were working correctly.

166297 ▶▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to p02099003, #670 of 2011 🔗

“clinicians have a tendency to follow the machines and not the patient” – er, good clinicians don’t….

166400 ▶▶▶ TJN, replying to Winston Smith, #671 of 2011 🔗

An aside question, for anyone who knows: if you take a normal healthy individual who has 100% O2 saturation at sea level and put them at 5500 m altitude, where the air pressure is half what it is at sea level, what would be their corresponding O2 saturation level? 50%??

166787 ▶▶▶▶ Winston Smith, replying to TJN, #672 of 2011 🔗

I’ve never seen an SaO2 of 50% …….. ever.

166860 ▶▶▶▶▶ TJN, replying to Winston Smith, #673 of 2011 🔗

Yes, doesn’t sound plausible, but then again I know nothing about this.

I wonder when at altitude an increased breathing rate and lower activity between them keep the saturation at acceptable levels.

166226 ▶▶ Major Panic, replying to p02099003, #674 of 2011 🔗

maybe he just panicked when he was told he was positive, and they gave him some oxygen

166212 Poppy, replying to Poppy, 23, #675 of 2011 🔗


Teenager dies after being found unconscious at student accommodation in Newcastle’

‘An 18-year-old woman has died after being found unresponsive at Park View University accommodation in the early hours of Saturday morning… The investigation is at an early stage but it is not believed to be a Covid-19 related death.’


The death is believed to be ‘unrelated’ to Covid – not at all surprising, given how few young people with no underlying conditions die from Covid – practically zero. I imagine this is suicide, and we know there have been lockdowns in Newcastle and Northumbria Universities following ‘outbreaks’. As an 18 year old she is technically not a minor but it seems so strange calling her a ‘woman’. She’s still practically a child, and 18 year olds leaving home for the first time are particularly vulnerable. If it is a suicide, it won’t be the last and I wouldn’t be surprised if there are more students who attempt it, if not succeed, given how appallingly they are being treated in accommodation. Just heartbreaking. What is the government doing to young people?

166225 ▶▶ Liam, replying to Poppy, 19, #676 of 2011 🔗

That young woman would have been full of hope and excitement a short while ago, looking forward to striking out into the world on her own.

We are being tortured by pitiless, soulless psychopaths.

166231 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Poppy, 6, #677 of 2011 🔗

On a similar subject: https://twitter.com/Counterpropag20/status/1311747933394604032
Bodo Schiffman on the reports that a third child in Germany has died due to masks..
In German but with English subtitles, only a couple of minutes long.

166366 ▶▶ mjr, replying to Poppy, 4, #678 of 2011 🔗

this should be referred to a lockdown related death.. These need to be counted..

166387 ▶▶▶ RickH, replying to mjr, 4, #679 of 2011 🔗

Don’t fall into the trap of just assuming, and thus echoing what we are fighting against. We don’t know the full facts here, even if the general point about the treatment of students is right.

166668 ▶▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to RickH, 1, #680 of 2011 🔗

Agree with you, we should reserve judgement, but the death seems suspicious and there are very few other things it could possibly be. I know a lot of people on here argue that death is a natural part of life, and not treating it as such is what has got us in this mess, and I agree to a certain extent, but the death of someone as young as 18 really is a tragedy. Perhaps if the true cause of death was suicide, it won’t even get widely reported, because it will add weight to the already very strong argument that students are being abysmally treated in university accommodation right now.

166570 ▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to Poppy, #681 of 2011 🔗

What are they doing to all of us? But it is especially tragic when somebody with his/her life ahead decides to end it all.

166228 Jakehadlee, replying to Jakehadlee, 38, #682 of 2011 🔗

I mentioned before I worked for the BBC as an editor on their Online News website during Bird Flu. I fought – and lost – at the time to balance and restrain our coverage.

The motivation for the “grim” headlines is simple – a deadly virus is a great story and it keeps giving. It’s the perfect story for a 24 hour news organisation. The editorial staff were so excited by it that they lost their judgement.

I had an argument with our senior editor over one particular story – a ridiculousl over-reaction to a dead seagull found floating off Scotland (not dead from flu, just dead) which they wanted me to lead the news with.

I argued that by leading the news with it we’d be intimating that people should be scared when there was no evidence yet that that was the case.

The argument given back was “everyone else is leading with it”

I said “everyone else isn’t the BBC and we have more of a duty to be proportionate”

And I was told “we have a duty to get people looking at the website”

And that about sums up why they do what they do

166258 ▶▶ DressageRider, replying to Jakehadlee, 7, #683 of 2011 🔗

Thanks Jake, it is really valuable to have this kind of inside information.

166382 ▶▶ RickH, replying to Jakehadlee, 6, #684 of 2011 🔗

That’s an interesting insight.

I think that there is propagandized manipulation of the news. But below that are layers of complicity and simply bad journalism that Nick Davies in his fascinating analysis labels “churnalism” (see : ‘Flat Earth News’ – an essential history of the decline of journalism)

166405 ▶▶ A. Contrarian, replying to Jakehadlee, 3, #685 of 2011 🔗

What I thought but I’m amazed that the modern attention span has coped with 7+ months of this now.

166567 ▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to Jakehadlee, 1, #686 of 2011 🔗

At its most simplistic level, bad news or lurid news is what sells newspapers/subscriptions to TV channels. It was ever thus and it is why a government strong in an emergency helps keep a lid on things. Such as ensuring the story that follows the headline is more balanced (not a lot you can do about the headline itself). It’s about responsibility, the duty that comes with press freedom, and the part most often forgotten about.

166636 ▶▶ annie, replying to Jakehadlee, 5, #687 of 2011 🔗

Drop the Dead Seagull!

166663 ▶▶▶ Jakehadlee, replying to annie, 1, #688 of 2011 🔗

Ha ha – exactly!

166234 Sarigan, replying to Sarigan, 18, #689 of 2011 🔗

Friend of mine just got in touch to say denied entry to pub for Sunday lunch as did not have NHS app. His phone is too old and they claimed it was the law. It is not compulsory as we know. Does he have a claim on discrimination basis?

Need to channel my inner AG and help him with this. We have to stop crap like this.

166250 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Sarigan, 8, #690 of 2011 🔗

I would say yes, as the ‘paper and pencil’ alternative legally still exists..

166301 ▶▶ Will, replying to Sarigan, 6, #691 of 2011 🔗

I would tell your friend to gladly take his business elsewhere, never to return.

166310 ▶▶ Sam Vimes, replying to Sarigan, 5, #692 of 2011 🔗

I think there is at least ‘indirect’ discrimination of some kind. Even if your friend doesn’t have a disability, the pub is denying entry to people who can’t work a smart phone, e.g. blind, missing limbs etc. For example, I think it used to be the case that if you didn’t provide wheel chair access, you were deemed to be discriminating, even if no one actually complained. And, of course, they are simply wrong. Yet again, a business not taking five minutes to look at the guidance.

166329 ▶▶▶ Sue, replying to Sam Vimes, 4, #693 of 2011 🔗

yes, quite a number of people do not have smartphones in the UK – can’t remember the % but I wouldn’t be surprised is around 20%. Older people won’t have a phone and if do likely to be a feature phone (just sms/voice), or old smartphones which do not support the app.
Businesses must provide a manual T&T process and this should be pushed to avoid discrimination for those who do not have the technology.

166346 ▶▶▶▶ Sam Vimes, replying to Sue, 9, #694 of 2011 🔗

I love the way these people say “It’s the law”, when they have never looked at a law in their life. It’s an essential (and almost daily!) task for all of us now.

166553 ▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Sam Vimes, 7, #695 of 2011 🔗

Our rector intones ‘It’s the law’ when demanding universal nappies.

Next time, I’m going to ask him if he’d have said the same thing in Nazi Germany. Killing of the mentally ill, imprisonment and execution of political opponents, enslavement of conquered peoples, homosexuals sent to concentration camps, gypsies and Jews gassed… all perfectly legal.

166537 ▶▶▶▶ smileymiley, replying to Sue, 3, #696 of 2011 🔗

Since we moved house 3 weeks ago Mrs smileymiley & I have ditched our smart phones for an old Nokia 3310 & Motorola Razr. Not had chance to use them in anger yet as have been too busy emptying boxes & are knackered by the evening! Hope to try it out in the local pub this coming week tho 😀 👍

166363 ▶▶ Sam Vimes, replying to Sarigan, #697 of 2011 🔗
166395 ▶▶ A. Contrarian, replying to Sarigan, 4, #698 of 2011 🔗

FFS how do these people think the human race survived before the unfortunate invention of smartphones?

How I wish I’d been born 50-odd years earlier…

166494 ▶▶ arfurmo, replying to Sarigan, 3, #699 of 2011 🔗

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/maintaining-records-of-staff-customers-and-visitors-to-support-nhs-test-and-trace and “ In England, you do not have to request details from people who check in with the official NHS QR poster, and venues should not ask them to do both. Venues must not make the specific use of the NHS QR code a precondition of entry (as the individual has the right to choose to provide their contact details if they prefer). “

166598 ▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Sarigan, 1, #700 of 2011 🔗

Thought my ears were burning and it wasn’t my cooking Sunday lunch!

Glad I’ve made some sort of impression, good or bad.

Write the place a letter/e-mail and quote the law, enjoy them squirming.

166235 Kevin 2, replying to Kevin 2, 3, #701 of 2011 🔗


(Can’t believe it is still up…)

Full exposure of Event 201.
History of Coronavirus patents from 2003 and 2018.
How the CDC, Fauci and Barik controlled proprietary rights to the virus, its detection, and measurement.
‘Gain of function’ research.
2015 concern about engineered bat-derived Coronavirus that can infect humans.
Prof Luc Montagnier (Nobel-Prizewinning discoverer of the AIDS virus) stating that SARS-CoV-2 is a meticulous lab creation.
Proof of social media censorship.
Gates put on the spot about the Moderna vaccine toxicity.
Rockefeller ‘Lockstep’
China’s influence on the WHO.
Tedros back story.
Gates vaccine history. Africa testing ground.
Links to Epstein.
Removing individuals from their home.
And the infamous Gates quote: ‘We will have to prepare for the next one. That will get attention this time’

And more.

166254 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Kevin 2, 4, #702 of 2011 🔗

And here is a Rockefeller document which matches with Boris’s moonshot idea of weekly testing: https://twitter.com/TristanHaggard/status/1254448844118474752/photo/1

166327 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Carrie, 2, #703 of 2011 🔗

Oh, and by the way, Joe Biden has tweeted that he plans to bring Fauci back if elected…

166238 Fingerache Philip., replying to Fingerache Philip., 12, #704 of 2011 🔗

Re: article in today’s Sunday Times.
The British dental association has said that thousands of dentists may be forced to close.
There you go then, all of you collaborators, you we be able to tell your unemployed toothless children and grandchildren how you did everything you were told to do ( I’m expecting any day to be advised to do triple backwards somersaults to counteract the virus) and we came through victorious and we all beat this over exaggerated pandemic.

166357 ▶▶ mjr, replying to Fingerache Philip., 4, #705 of 2011 🔗

doesnt surprise since they are like fortresses and only doing emergency treatment .. I was due a check up months ago . so thats no payment from me and no payment for from NHS

166384 ▶▶▶ Fingerache Philip., replying to mjr, 1, #706 of 2011 🔗

When will people take their “government/experts/advisers” sponsored blinkers off and see the truth?

166645 ▶▶▶▶ Mrs issedoff, replying to Fingerache Philip., 2, #707 of 2011 🔗

God knows, only when something really comes home to roost for them as individuals. I have said for a while that in my view a lot of these covid zealots are a selfish bunch. They are only looking at how things are for them and if they are in good health, secure job, support network and into fancy dress (e.g wearing masks), then they don’t care about the havoc being wreaked around them.

166239 James.M, replying to James.M, 1, #708 of 2011 🔗

A small point but am I not correct in thinking that Pro Ferguson was predicting deaths for Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (vCJD) the human form of Mad Cow disease and not deaths from foot and mouth disease which doesn’t affect humans?

166351 ▶▶ Liam, replying to James.M, #709 of 2011 🔗


166544 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Liam, 4, #710 of 2011 🔗

Two cows in a field. One says to the other, ‘I’m really worried about this mad cow thing, aren’t you?’
‘Not at all,’ replies the other cow. ‘I’m a horse.’

166243 Major Panic, replying to Major Panic, 17, #711 of 2011 🔗

Is this the most important thing going on for lockdown sceptics at the moment…

A potential international class action… the WHO accused of crimes against humanity…

The lawyer here has some massive cases under his belt and should be taken very seriously!

This is a ‘conspiracy theorists’ dream!

A must watch, the first few minutes at least…


166277 ▶▶ DressageRider, replying to Major Panic, 8, #712 of 2011 🔗

Done, everyone should watch. This is massive news, I agee the lawyer should be taken seriously. Someone up thread suggested we send this to our MPs and direct them to the final few minutes.

166352 ▶▶ stefarm, replying to Major Panic, 4, #713 of 2011 🔗

Sent to my MP, the 3rd email I’ve sent her – haven’t even had an acknowledgement, ended my email that both her and her party will not be having my vote ever again.

166244 Paul, replying to Paul, 35, #714 of 2011 🔗

Please to god can this week be the week when something hugely positive happens to make an irreversible start to the end of the madness ?.
This ‘groundhog day’ state of existence is living without life.

166377 ▶▶ A. Contrarian, replying to Paul, 3, #715 of 2011 🔗

I’m with you on that. I have the same stupid hope every week but nothing changes except for the worse.

166425 ▶▶▶ DRW, replying to A. Contrarian, 4, #716 of 2011 🔗

Same, it just seems to worsen by the week, especially now with the manufactured testdemic.

166457 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to DRW, 2, #717 of 2011 🔗

At least a lot of people on Twitter are tracking Vallance’s nonsense projection on a daily basis..

166573 ▶▶▶▶▶ DRW, replying to Carrie, 2, #718 of 2011 🔗

Hence why they’ve added a few extra thousand to save it.

166593 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ D B, replying to DRW, 1, #719 of 2011 🔗

But a quick look at the data by date tested undoes all that thankfully rather than by day reported

166673 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ DRW, replying to D B, #720 of 2011 🔗

It’ll just be reported as “OMG Record Cases!”

166659 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to DRW, 1, #721 of 2011 🔗

In a way, it should backfire on them. More cases + fewer hospitalisations/deaths = a much milder disease, but of course all science is kiboshed in the name of the casedemic.

166669 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ DRW, replying to Poppy, #722 of 2011 🔗

Indeed. MSM have trained the majority to think case (actually + PCR test) = ICU admission.

166392 ▶▶ RickH, replying to Paul, 3, #723 of 2011 🔗

I think that the ‘groundhog day’ image is entirely appropriate.

Except that this one is man-made.

166623 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to RickH, #724 of 2011 🔗

And what did the guy in Groundhog Day do ? He perfected himself, did things, studied, practised, helped people, and above all developed a positive mental attitude.

166632 ▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to JohnB, 2, #725 of 2011 🔗

And sprang the trap.
Which we won’t do by moaning ‘I despair’, etc. etc.

166474 ▶▶ Melangell, replying to Paul, #726 of 2011 🔗

Very unlikely from an astrological point of view, this being the week when war-like Mars in Aries squares the brutal, restrictive conjunction of Pluto and Saturn in Capricorn which set all our misery into motion in January…but this square also symbolises the individual’s anger against authoritarian oppression, so expect more backlash, protests and anger from us, the oppressed…and hold out for the entry of Jupiter and Saturn into open-minded, libertarian Aquarius in the New Year!

166917 ▶▶▶ Kate, replying to Melangell, -1, #727 of 2011 🔗

Don’t forget the uranus saturn square next year. rebellion on the way.

166245 Harry hopkins, replying to Harry hopkins, 19, #728 of 2011 🔗

On the basis that we should be spreading our message as far and as wide as possible I have today sent the following to my medical practice:

As a resident of Otley and a patient of your practice for decades, I am extremely concerned at the state of the NHS and indeed at the terrible situation this country finds itself in.
There are very many of us now ( and we are certainly NOT conspiracy theorists!) who view this whole ‘Pandemic’ as being a serious crime against humanity.
I would urge all at the practice, not least the doctors, to view this video—by a prominent German Doctor—and to think on it. The effects of ‘Lockdown’ and other measures designed to combat the ‘virus’ are causing more deaths, hardship, illness (not least mental!) than ever a so called variation of the ‘flu’ is causing. There is much more to this pandemic than meets the eye and, like other so called scares of the last twenty years or so, the only people who gain from this are those with a Global financial interest.
We will only get back to ‘normal’ if more and more people refuse to accept the ‘new normal’. All our futures, not least our children’s depend on it.


Harry Hopkins

166635 ▶▶ Mrs issedoff, replying to Harry hopkins, 1, #729 of 2011 🔗

Good on you Harry, I think I am going to do the same. I used to work in Otley and would frequent a lot of the watering holes, in the good old days when you could stand and socialise and life was good!. I’m going to stop there, getting upset thinking about normality.

166261 chaos, replying to chaos, 9, #730 of 2011 🔗

The new normal: fake green rabbit hutch towns and cities.. mandatory vaccines and digital ID – without which you cannot partake in society.. no cinemas, no pubs, no holidays abroad for the plebs, and no big live events where people could congregate and remember remember, gunpowder, (un)treason and plot. The boot on your face forever comes with a chip and needle. A needle every year.

166320 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to chaos, 5, #731 of 2011 🔗

On the subject of needles, it was posted yesterday about the NHS advertising jobs for people to carry out mass Covid vaccinations in part of Wales.
I looked at the NHS jobs website and searched for all jobs relating for vaccines, and (amongst other things) found an advert for a Covid vaccine trial in London.

I just found a DM article regarding everyone being vaccinated by Easter, which contained this:
‘It comes after it was revealed New York-based company Codagenix plans to begin experiments of its vaccine in London by the end of the year.
The jab will be of a type called a live attenuated vaccine, meaning people will be given a genetically-modified version of the coronavirus that is weaker than the real thing but still infectious.
Live attenuated vaccines — such as the MMR jab — work by stimulating the immune system in the same way that real Covid-19 would, but by relying on viruses unable to cause severe illness.
Codagenix says its vaccine was successful after a single dose in animal trials and is designed to produce immunity against various parts of the coronavirus, rather than just the ‘spike protein’ on the outside that many others have focused on.’

Source: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8800433/Coronavirus-UK-Mass-vaccination-just-three-months-away-according-Government-sources.html

Are these two finds linked? Seems likely.
Yet another experiment to be carried out on Brits..and imminently too…

166344 ▶▶▶ The Filthy Engineer, replying to Carrie, 1, #732 of 2011 🔗

My wife and I have just been text spammed by our surgery with a link to a survey to gauge our opinions on a vaccine.


166380 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to The Filthy Engineer, 2, #733 of 2011 🔗

Is this what the government call ‘listening to the people?!

GDPR rules broken too?

166512 ▶▶▶▶▶ The Filthy Engineer, replying to Carrie, 1, #734 of 2011 🔗

GDPR broken did cross my mind. My GP legitimately has my mobile phone number but I too wondered whether this crossed the boundary for the purpose with which they hold my number.

166414 ▶▶▶▶ Two-Six, replying to The Filthy Engineer, #735 of 2011 🔗

Just done it. A very badly written survey designed to promote vaccines in my opinion. Very leading questions and a poor choice of responses available. However it does have two sections where you can type stuff. Let these bastards have it!

166515 ▶▶▶▶▶ The Filthy Engineer, replying to Two-Six, #736 of 2011 🔗

That’s why I’m always wary of these sorts of surveys.

166650 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mabel Cow, replying to Two-Six, 2, #737 of 2011 🔗

Just done it myself and I fully agree that it has been written solely to promote vaccination. It uses leading questions that already assume the position that vaccines are an unalloyed good. It reminds me of the false-dichotomy approach where you force people to answer yes or no to questions like “Have you stopped beating your wife?”.

I submitted the following in the free-response section:

“All vaccinations come with some risk, and so vaccines should only be used when (a) they work, (b) the condition they are designed to protect against is dangerous to the person being vaccinated, (c) the vaccine has been properly tested, (d) the creators of the vaccine are legally liable for any harm caused by the vaccine. Furthermore, people who choose not be vaccinated should not be penalised in any manner whatsoever, including but not limited to access to shops, schools, medical facilities, indoor or outdoor spaces.

COVID-19 has proved itself to have a threat profile similar to seasonal flu and so any COVID-19 vaccine should be treated in the same way as the seasonal flu vaccine, that is to say properly tested and administered only to people in significant danger. A rushed programme of national vaccination for COVID-19 using a vaccine for which the creators have been explicitly excused of any legal liability would not be consistent with the way in which flu vaccination is handled.”

166791 ▶▶▶▶ watashi, replying to The Filthy Engineer, #738 of 2011 🔗

Just filled it in. Very biased and slanted questions. Like Two-Six I gave them what for in the section where you can write stuff.

166538 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Carrie, 1, #739 of 2011 🔗

Sounds like asymptomatic Covid to me.

166654 ▶▶▶ Poppy, replying to Carrie, 2, #740 of 2011 🔗

The plan to vaccinate everyone by Easter also chimes with Johnson’s insistence that everything will be ‘radically different’ by next spring…

166263 leggy, replying to leggy, 51, #741 of 2011 🔗

This off FB brightened my day!

I don’t take any risks when visiting my local supermarket. Only a replica medieval knight’s helmet can truly protect one from the COVID plague. I had expected someone to approach me to ask if I am an escapee from a secure mental health facility. No one even blinks an eye. Welcome to the New Normal.

166469 ▶▶ shorthand, replying to leggy, 8, #742 of 2011 🔗

Haha that’s brilliant!
I sold a suit of armour on Gumtree back in June to a lad all the way down in Richmond. It was round about the time they were going on about the PPE shortages. I advertised it as Medieval PPE and gave a big write up on it saying it would protect you from Covid (maybe…), help against people sneezing nearby, smash through panic buying mobs but that it wasn’t ideal for queuing outside tesco in the rain… So somewhere in London right now there’s a Polish taxi driver clanking about in a suit of armour thinking he’s truly invincible….

166551 ▶▶▶ BeBopRockSteady, replying to shorthand, 1, #743 of 2011 🔗

Haha. You madman

166278 annie, replying to annie, 66, #744 of 2011 🔗

Well, survived church this morning after being publicly hectored last week for not wearing a nappy.
The decision seems to have been taken to ignore my presence altogether, which is ok by me. God knows that I am there, and I know that He is.

But oh, the pathos. It was ‘harvest festival’. Not as much as an apple core or a tin of beans on display. Psalm 65, the harvest psalm, mumbled into nappies.

No collection, because ‘money is dirty and it is dangerous for the churchwardens to handle it’. Get stuffed, all you poor and needy.

A question to Archdeacon Craven-Bedwetter, as to whether the congregation could be allowed to hum, had been met with the order that ‘in no circumstances could anybody hum’.

Congregation was ordered to disperse immediately after the service, as some had stayed to chat last week and it was ‘getting dangerous’.

And the rector had the gall to pray for defence against the dangers of plastic waste, with everybody except me smothered in a non-recyclable, non-biodegradable face nappy.

Jesus wept. Not intended as a blasphemy.

166282 ▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to annie, 24, #745 of 2011 🔗

Oh Annie, this is awful. I feel for you. I have a very similar type of interaction with my daughter’s new headteacher. It’s getting ‘very dangerous’ to walk by the side of the school.

166287 ▶▶▶ JohnMac, replying to Country Mumkin, 20, #746 of 2011 🔗

How is humming dangerous? Does the virus come out of your ears?

166362 ▶▶▶▶ RickH, replying to JohnMac, 13, #747 of 2011 🔗

The depths of stupidity revealed by this virus are’ breathtaking’!

166427 ▶▶▶▶▶ Sam Vimes, replying to RickH, 7, #748 of 2011 🔗

It’s a marvellous, multi-purpose tool, isn’t it Rick? Stops all other illnesses dead, detects low IQ, encourages ‘creativity’ of the worst kind…

166548 ▶▶▶▶▶ BeBopRockSteady, replying to RickH, 8, #749 of 2011 🔗

It’s crazy. Congregating for a chat after the service is ‘dangerous’. This is what I can’t get my head around.

To them maybe not? Do these people not take on board the reality that we make our call on this and whether we should leave the house or not. Or talk to. Our friends to feel human. I’d say that chat is about as much an appeal and need for the attendees as the service itself.

Utterly depressing and we seem to be increasingly dictated to by people who think they know better when they evidently don’t.

166612 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Steve, replying to BeBopRockSteady, #750 of 2011 🔗

Seemed to be plenty of people having a chat after the service at St Lawrence’s in Chorley this morning. Although they did all seem to be wearing face nappies, including the vicar.

166418 ▶▶▶▶ Sam Vimes, replying to JohnMac, 4, #751 of 2011 🔗

Gov face covering guidance now actually mentions ‘talking and breathing’. I kid you not!

166511 ▶▶▶▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to Sam Vimes, 3, #752 of 2011 🔗

Breathing in a mask is now banned?

166445 ▶▶▶▶ chaos, replying to JohnMac, 5, #753 of 2011 🔗

Ironically(?) humming is thought to increase nitric oxide (I believe most of our nitric oxide is released within the sinuses). Nitric oxide aids immunity.

166308 ▶▶ TJN, replying to annie, 12, #754 of 2011 🔗

My feeling is that you were closer to God than most of them there.

Glad it went ok, and better than last week.

166313 ▶▶ Sue, replying to annie, 13, #755 of 2011 🔗

Well done for having the guts to attend again after last week’s events. Sounds too stressful to have a positive spiritual experience with your chosen deity. I’m not religious (convent school put me off!) but i would have thought a 30mins in a lovely peaceful setting communing with nature, would be more spiritually uplifting for the soul than sharing in a formal setting with such rules and observants to the “new normal” religion which sounds like hell on earth.

166353 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Sue, 12, #756 of 2011 🔗

I agree wholly, and I do commune with nature a lot, in this lovely part of the world. But there’s a stubborn streak in me that won’t give up . Although any more hectoring and that’s the end.

166398 ▶▶▶▶ Sue, replying to annie, 10, #757 of 2011 🔗

Annie, your tenacity and determination is inspirational! Keep going!
Reminds me of one of the beatitudes: “ Blessed are those who suffer persecution for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” (remembered something of my O level RE 🙂 )

Persevere and all will be well!

166410 ▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Sue, 6, #758 of 2011 🔗

Well, it isn’t persecution as the real martyrs know it. But I think I’ve had a faint adumbration of the feelings that inspire martyrs.

Not wishing to be hubristic, mind. I’m no Ann Askew.

166314 ▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to annie, 2, #759 of 2011 🔗

Annie, I think you should seriously consider sacking this abuse. Surely there is an alternative? MW

166319 ▶▶ Peter Thompson, replying to annie, 4, #760 of 2011 🔗

Oh Ann what a sad story. For a second your little comment reminded me of the final scene in the church of the 1940 film ” Mrs Miniver ” . This was a film portraying a time when this nation was truly threatened. I can see you as Lady Beldon …though you might be younger … sorry if you are .


Onward Christian Soldiers !

166340 ▶▶ Mr Dee, replying to annie, 10, #761 of 2011 🔗

As my dear old Tadcu (granddad) observed when he was alive: “There’s a big difference between Christianity and Churchianity.”

166342 ▶▶ Liam, replying to annie, 5, #762 of 2011 🔗

I’ve stopped going. Breaks my heart but I can’t bear it.

166359 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Liam, 8, #763 of 2011 🔗

I don’t blame you. Nor does God, I’m quite sure.

166343 ▶▶ annie, replying to annie, 12, #764 of 2011 🔗

PS. I prayed very hard for you all. No offence intended to non-believers or those of other faiths.

166412 ▶▶▶ Sam Vimes, replying to annie, 4, #765 of 2011 🔗

I’m not religious, Ann, and don’t believe in prayer, but nevertheless, you are being generous, trying to help people and hoping for a better outcome. No offence taken.

166421 ▶▶▶ Sue, replying to annie, 3, #766 of 2011 🔗

thanks Annie – i think we’re going to need it!

166522 ▶▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to annie, 3, #767 of 2011 🔗

Thank you. Perhaps it might offend the bed-wetter Richard Dawkins, but I’d be surprised if your prayers offended anybody else!

166546 ▶▶▶ TJN, replying to annie, 2, #768 of 2011 🔗

That’s very thoughtful of you Annie.

And maybe pray for the perpetrators of this tragedy, as they are the ones who need forgiveness.

166354 ▶▶ RickH, replying to annie, 8, #769 of 2011 🔗

Well – I’m an adamant non-believer. But you have my empathy, and I’m not being cynical when I say that the indications of ‘faith’ in that situation are notable by their absence!

166378 ▶▶ Mark, replying to annie, 7, #770 of 2011 🔗

The Church hierarchy needs to be standing in front of the mirror next to the medical profession, taking a long hard look at themselves and resolving to apologise and do better in future. imo, after this nonsense is over.

(And that’s the polite, and legal, version of what should happen to them).

166442 ▶▶ chaos, replying to annie, 1, #771 of 2011 🔗

I am blasphemy. A Thelemite. Ironically(?) humming is thought to increase nitric oxide (I believe most of our nitric oxide is released within the sinuses). Nitric oxide aids immunity.

166496 ▶▶ Tee Ell, replying to annie, #772 of 2011 🔗

Applaud your bravery!

166529 ▶▶ Silke David, replying to annie, #773 of 2011 🔗

Did you burst out laughing at the absurdity of it at some point?

166627 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Silke David, 1, #774 of 2011 🔗

Well, the bit about the humming did make a titter go round the nappied legions, andI laughed out loud.

166542 ▶▶ davews, replying to annie, 3, #775 of 2011 🔗

We will be having a harvest festival next Sunday on our now monthly services in the building. Request for tinned stuff etc for our food bank but not sure what will actually be there on the day. Most of our members seem to want to carry on with just Zoom and quite a few staunchly refuse to attend in person ‘due to the risk’. I made my views on masks well known at the previous services and hope I will still be welcomed but time will tell. Next month will be a communion service, the first since March, and will be ‘interesting’ with the new rules.

166601 ▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to annie, 6, #776 of 2011 🔗

Jesus wouldn’t have put up with the stupidity.

166629 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Awkward Git, 2, #777 of 2011 🔗

I think he’d have got on well with you, AG!

166739 ▶▶▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to annie, 1, #778 of 2011 🔗

I also like Ghandi’s quote about it’s OK to fight back to protect yourself, your family and country as long as someone else starts the trouble so basically you are defending yourself.


“We have a moral right to defend ourselves against violation; there’s no doubt in my mind about that. Persons and groups have boundaries for a reason, and integrity generally requires that we defend them.

Gandhi said that this is an obligation that trumped his call to experiment with nonviolent action; if you can’t think of a way to defend yourself nonviolently, he said, use violence .”

He wasn’t the total pacifist main stream history made makes him out to be.

I got thrown out of Sunday school for asking “why?” too much as nothing they told us made any sense and I could not just accept it or take it in faith.

166698 ▶▶ Stephanos, replying to annie, 6, #779 of 2011 🔗

Ann, like everyone here I feel for you. I went back to church without a mask a few weeks ago as I wanted to thank everyone for praying for my wife who had had a nasty fall. My face was uncovered and I also sang a bit, NOT humming, but I am not a good singer, I cannot really keep to the notes, they are too high or too low. I also moved the seats due to this accursed (and I do mean that) anti-social distancing, so that I could see a bit better. During the ‘peace’ I shook hands with people, in particular with one of my Latin students, I will also NOT engage in this idiotic elbow bumping.
I was unsure about going again because one is not (at least I am not) in the right frame of mind to worship. It is all very distressing.
One thing I have started to do is to email details of an event (such as the story about the blind teenager) to both my MP and a clergyman whom I know to get them to understand the real harm that is being done.
No one challenged me about all this but I may have a bit of an advantage here in that I teach New Testament Greek and Classical Latin and I am learning Syriac. I think that gives me a bit of status so people are unwilling to get entangled. I may be wrong here. I always take my Greek New Testament to church and Septuagint as well, but we don’t often have the OT.
Really sorry to hear about your experience, and yes, I understand the thrust of your quotation.
One other thing, I wore a T-shirt with the legend, ‘Our parents and grandparents did not prosecute two world wars to a successful and victorious conclusion in order that we should be bossed about by yellow-jacketed jobsworths.’
Where there is no vision, the people perish, Proverbs 29:18.

166815 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Stephanos, 3, #780 of 2011 🔗

Stephanos, you might like to read the following, by the admirable Archdeacon of Hastings:


He id an absolutely lovely man, and I’m sure he would be pleased to hear from you if you got in touch.It must be lonely for him, as a man of sense and courage amidst the cowards and quitters who dominate the church hierarchy.

PS. There’s a story about a man who sang out of tune at a service conducted by John Wesley. The singer apologised, but said he was singing for the glory of God. ‘Then sing on,’ Wesley replied.

Syriac – oh my!

166828 ▶▶ Emily Tock, replying to annie, 1, #781 of 2011 🔗

I’m so sorry about your terrible time today. Included in the definition of ‘to hum’ are literally the words ‘with the mouth closed’. I suggest listening to this glory of the human voice as an antidote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmH1nZSGIyY

166855 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to annie, 1, #782 of 2011 🔗

Jesus wept. Instead of an uplifting service this is more like straight out of Nightmare on Elm Street.

Apologies but your church and its vicar are the winner’s of this week’s Bart Simpson Award for Covid Stupidity.

167021 ▶▶ Cheshirecatslave, replying to annie, 3, #783 of 2011 🔗

I’m so sorry, wish you could come to my church. No one is unpleasant or challenges me or another mask exempt lady, we can sing quietly and there is a plate at the back though no collection is taken during the service. We say the responses in a normal tone of voice and chat after the service. I sincerely hope it stays that way.

167024 ▶▶▶ Cheshirecatslave, replying to Cheshirecatslave, #784 of 2011 🔗

Andour lovely harvest displays in every window are still there.

167112 ▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Cheshirecatslave, #785 of 2011 🔗

Sounds wonderful.

167270 ▶▶ James007, replying to annie, #786 of 2011 🔗

We went to our local parish church. As with yours, no chatting allowed, we were told to disperse at the end, leaving in turn.
No singing. Worst part was the doors had to be kept open. I’m sure it was unhealthy to be sitting in a cold wet draft. An elderly couple behind us left early in the service it was too cold for them.

The intercessor managed to get some anti-trump virtue signalling in during the prayers, whilst praying for his recovery “despite all of his views” praying that he would be guided more by His wisdom, rather than his prejudice.
When Jesus said to pray for our enemies, I wondered if He intended for us to add caveats to ensure our disapproval was obvious to others, and to make us more holy.

One laugh was when the leader prayed for us to remove the barriers that prevented us from worshipping God. I think that’s what she was saying. She was muffling through a mask at the time.

166291 Aynsley Kellow, 4, #787 of 2011 🔗

Your statement about Ferguson’s first exaggeration is wrong. FMD does not kill people. I think you meant BSE.

166300 MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 16, #788 of 2011 🔗

A couple of glimmers of light from the ‘Wild’ North West: Last night, AG went to pick up our fish from the chip-shop (we don’t eat chips and do our own peas.) He was made to put the money in a plastic bowl and observed to an elderly lady with 2 dogs behind him how the assistant was going to take the cash out and put his change in (which she did) so he wasn’t sure what had been achieved in terms of ‘fighting the virus’.

To his surprise, the E.L.W.T.D. agreed enthusiastically. She lives near us but we hadn’t met her before. She’s a full-on LS who believes we’re being ‘herded’ by a global agenda into vaccines, surveillance etc.

I might also mention that a lefty old friend who was a total Nelly, going round in masks and massive rubber gloves for weeks, is now sending us increasingly sceptical emails. He has not gone down the rabbit-hole yet and probably still wears a muzzle but his views have definitely changed. When AG replied-all to an email from him which he’d sent to several Labourites (we’re not!) with a comment about ‘the slide into fascism’ he got a very supportive reply from someone we don’t know, agreeing wholeheartedly. MW

166403 ▶▶ Sam Vimes, replying to MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, 8, #789 of 2011 🔗

I feel so bad now, about handling cash with shop keepers/check out staff several times a week all through this charade. When I think how many I must have killed, I feel strangely unconcerned. 🙂

166441 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Sam Vimes, 14, #790 of 2011 🔗

I must have an iron constitution because I have been handling dirty, disease-ridden cash now since the middle of May, and I’m still here. Or am I? Perhaps I have died and I am now in purgatory, because that’s what it feels like.

166526 ▶▶▶▶ Silke David, replying to kh1485, 3, #791 of 2011 🔗

I would think the virus does not stick to the new plastic notes anyway. Coins have always been riddled with bacteria, so why is it so dangerous now?

166534 ▶▶▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Silke David, #792 of 2011 🔗

Some years ago there was an alert put around that handling money could cause scabies.

166321 Jonathan Castro, replying to Jonathan Castro, 25, #793 of 2011 🔗

Boris didn’t even know Ferguson’s track record – disqualifies him from office.
Boris did know – certainly disqualifies him from office.
Boris must go, and Cummings, Hancock et al with him.

166323 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Jonathan Castro, 8, #794 of 2011 🔗

Let’s hope today’s DM article on BJ helps to hasten that..

166502 ▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to Jonathan Castro, 5, #795 of 2011 🔗

They must go anyway.

166335 annie, 11, #796 of 2011 🔗

12July: ‘ Wales’ Chief Medical Officer Frank Atherton says the evidence for the move [to compulsory face nappies] was “weak” and that there was only “small benefit” in wearing face masks.’

He has not pronounced on them since, as far as I can see.
So much for following the science.

166337 John P, replying to John P, 4, #797 of 2011 🔗

“In 2001, he predicted that foot and mouth disease could kill up to 50,000 people. It ended up killing less than 200.”

Erm, Toby, I think you may need to re-edit this edition. This version could be “moo-sic” to the ears of your critics!

166608 ▶▶ Steve, replying to John P, #798 of 2011 🔗

I think that was supposed to be mad cows disease not foot and mouth.

Although I think Ferguson’s team did have something to do with the response to that outbreak.

166339 NeilPerdo, replying to NeilPerdo, 1, #799 of 2011 🔗

Where are they getting the 7% of pillar 2 tests are positive figure from? Given the latest number of pillar 2 tests 213,400 * 0.07 = 14,938 cases. We’re only getting around 7,000 “cases” so the figure should be more like 3.5, still well, well within the rage of specificity for PCR tests done in carparks.

166586 ▶▶ D B, replying to NeilPerdo, 2, #800 of 2011 🔗

They did just drop 12,000 cases out of nowhere though today so – obviously no foul play there.

166349 Country Mumkin, replying to Country Mumkin, 3, #801 of 2011 🔗

Ideas for action

I’m going to ask Toby to put a section above the line so we can add ideas.

166372 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Country Mumkin, 16, #802 of 2011 🔗

Like it!

I would suggest for unmasked shopping though, that people should just carry a copy of the current law and the equality act that says they should not be discriminated against. And which states that you do not need to carry any proof of why you are exempt.

Otherwise I think it gives shops ‘ammunition’ to continue asking that people *prove* their exemption and reveal personal medical info, also that they must wear a lanyard. To any shop worker demanding/suggesting the wearing of a lanyard I would reply something like ‘Oh, do you mean like the yellow star that Jews had to wear during the war?’. I would suspect that the person would likely back off at that…? At least I would hope so!

166383 ▶▶▶ John P, replying to Carrie, 10, #803 of 2011 🔗

I have reduced the number of trips I make to shops since the mask mandate was imposed, but still visit somewhere – shops, newsagent or post office – once or twice a week

sans mask

Although I carry an exemption card as a precaution, I have never thus far been challenged by anyone for not wearing a mask.

166389 ▶▶▶ bluemoon, replying to Carrie, 11, #804 of 2011 🔗

I’m sorry, but the yellow star thing doesn’t work with the young folk, they have no idea of what went on 80 years ago.

166420 ▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to bluemoon, 10, #805 of 2011 🔗

Which is odd, considering that Nazi Germany is the only bit of European history that schooks cover these days.

166434 ▶▶▶▶▶ bluemoon, replying to annie, 2, #806 of 2011 🔗

Is it? I get the impression that history of any era is a subject rarely taught these days!

166451 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to bluemoon, 3, #807 of 2011 🔗

In my daughter’s old primary school, for THREE YEARS RUNNNG they taught the fire of London.

166473 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ bluemoon, replying to Country Mumkin, 2, #808 of 2011 🔗

Shame they didn’t cover the plague the year before!

166448 ▶▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to annie, #809 of 2011 🔗

I was about to write the same thing. They do it at least twice, in both primary and secondary school..

166456 ▶▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to annie, #810 of 2011 🔗

I didn’t learn it in school and I am in my fifties.

166460 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to John P, #811 of 2011 🔗

We didn’t do modern history for my O level.

166468 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to John P, #812 of 2011 🔗

Odd – so am I and we studied it as part of O level..

166525 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to Carrie, #813 of 2011 🔗

As I recall there were different exam boards. My O level certificate says “University of Oxford Delegacy of Local Examinations. General Certificate of Education.”

“History (British)” is the title listed for that exam. As I recall we did the Tudors and Stuarts.

Some other history may have been done in the first two years of secondary school, before we started being taught for O level, but I have only vague memories of it.

We also did some O levels under the Associated Examining Board (AEB).

I also have an A level under the Joint Matriculation Board (JMB). My other A levels were under the Oxford board and the AEB.

166402 ▶▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to Carrie, 1, #814 of 2011 🔗

Good idea to take the law. I think there’s a link somewhere from law or fiction. Will ask Toby to put in one place if he agrees to do it

166516 ▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to Carrie, 1, #815 of 2011 🔗

I’d bet half of them wouldn’t know what you’re talking about.

166517 ▶▶▶ Silke David, replying to Carrie, 4, #816 of 2011 🔗

Just been giving advice on another channel to a mother about her daughter meeting her friends in a coffeeshop about T&T. her daughter is only 13, so she does not need to give details, and told her to insist on paper and give false name and number and warn her friends of her intention to do so so they do not “out” her.

166547 ▶▶▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to Silke David, #817 of 2011 🔗

Well done you. As a mother I’m very grateful to kind people such as yourself.

166557 ▶▶▶ Steve Martindale, replying to Carrie, #818 of 2011 🔗

The issue seems to be when travelling on main line trains, the train companies seem to regard it as a condition of carriage that you wear a mask and their staff have been told to check. If you do not wear a lanyard you will be asked and so it depends on how prepared you are to have to keep answering the queries. One of the reasons for not wearing a mask is mental health reasons and for some mental health conditions the last thing you want is for repeated challenges and so a lanyard preempts the questions and avoids the potentially damaging confrontations.

166381 ▶▶ Sam Vimes, replying to Country Mumkin, 11, #819 of 2011 🔗

Definitely avoid the “Gen up on which exemption you are using, so you can clearly state it” bit. No need to state anything other than “I am exempt”.

166413 ▶▶▶ chaos, replying to Sam Vimes, 4, #820 of 2011 🔗

All you need to say is “exempt”. As you say, no point in or need for discussions. Surprised so many are wearing masks. Mass diobedience here could cause it all to fall apart. It is a lynch pin rule.

166422 ▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to chaos, 2, #821 of 2011 🔗

Yes, and that’s why refuseniks are being persecuted.

166466 ▶▶▶▶▶ John P, replying to annie, 1, #822 of 2011 🔗

Some, undoubtedly …

but like many things in life, this is probably being exaggerated.

166453 ▶▶▶ John P, replying to Sam Vimes, 3, #823 of 2011 🔗

No need to state anything other than “I am exempt”.

No need even to say that in my experience.

That may change, of course, but I’m going to “keep calm and carry on” until it does.

166416 ▶▶ Mabel Cow, replying to Country Mumkin, 2, #824 of 2011 🔗

There’s a newly-added “Hearts and Minds” topic in the General Discussion section of the forum that aims to collect ideas for influencing the general public in a productive and positive fashion.

166666 ▶▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to Mabel Cow, #825 of 2011 🔗

Ok great I will look, thanks 😊

166757 ▶▶▶▶ Mabel Cow, replying to Country Mumkin, 2, #826 of 2011 🔗

Thanks for your great contribution to Hearts and Minds.

I particularly liked this point you made:

“I’m not a snitch: Be explicit with people that you won’t snitch on the rule of 6. Maybe a car sticker or badge in the window of your house. I have found doing this is a good way to get people talking about the ‘rules’ and then as we talk more, we share what we’ve found out about.”

When I was a student in Manchester, the locals had a saying, “See all, know all, say fuck all.” It would be great if we could foster that feeling in the masses as a countermeasure to the Stasi-fication of Britain.

166367 Cheezilla, 4, #827 of 2011 🔗

A large crowd?
It looks rather like a QUEUE to me!

comment image

166370 Sam Vimes, replying to Sam Vimes, 6, #828 of 2011 🔗

For anyone who has been refused service and has a recognised disability, this could be of interest:


166480 ▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to Sam Vimes, #829 of 2011 🔗

Good shout out!

166394 John P, 7, #830 of 2011 🔗

Lana Del Rey wears a mesh mask to greet fans:



(Hard to say if she’s trolling or just not very bright, but I’m willing to give her the benefit of the doubt in this case).

166408 chaos, 2, #831 of 2011 🔗

I invoke the bornless one.. and every spirit and scourge of god is subject unto me. I evoke Mighty President Marbas such that Boris and the other puppets will fail. Riddled with tumours ov cancer and regret. Cursed they fall. Scorned they suffer. History hates them like Hitler. I’ll set the altar up later. Even us ‘Satanists’ hate that evil is wrought in this world.

Nurse! Oh hang on.. there arent any. Unless you have ‘the cold’.

166419 Mark, replying to Mark, 19, #832 of 2011 🔗

Five welders from Doncaster are jailed for TWO WEEKS for breaking coronavirus restrictions on the Isle of Man after buying lunch at Tesco – as their families slam ‘mind boggling’ rules
The five men were on the island had been due to work on Manx Electric Railway
Instead of going straight to their accommodation they went to Tesco for lunch
Member of public reported them to staff before police arrested them that night
Family say differing rules across Britain are responsible for their jail sentences

Well I suppose Isle of Man’s hysterical stupidity (incredible to realise it is still going on) is at least helping to bring the whole panic into popular disrepute. Drip, drip, drip….

Member of public reported them to staff

Snitching scumbag. It would be nice if these five could be allowed to discuss the matter freely and frankly with him or her.

Though the police and legal people who thought it was appropriate to charge these people rather than war or caution them are as much or more contemptible.

166440 ▶▶ Dame Lynet, replying to Mark, 11, #833 of 2011 🔗

I live in the IoM and it’s great that this is getting attention; there is nothing that the bedwetting Manx govt hate more than bad publicity and this sure is up there. Contemptible.

166454 ▶▶ dickyboy, replying to Mark, 3, #834 of 2011 🔗

I’ve been planning for a while to escape to the IoM when all this is over. Of course Manx is known for its hard line (birching etc) but I had until now considered it a much nicer place to live than this hell hole. I’m doubting it now. People on Mann generally are very cooperative with the police, but in normal times all the criminals are known to the police. I guess this gives them a new challenge to amuse themselves.

166461 ▶▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to dickyboy, 8, #835 of 2011 🔗

The birching has gone from the Isle of Man, so you’ll have to pay for that service the same as the rest of us.

166528 ▶▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Nick Rose, 1, #836 of 2011 🔗

😂 😂

166482 ▶▶▶ Dame Lynet, replying to dickyboy, 6, #837 of 2011 🔗

Fwiw, I am making plans to leave after twenty years here. It is still a beautiful place, but the downsides (the people who run it; becoming ever more woke and virtue-signally; the drawbacks generally of living on an island, and now the borders nonsense) are getting to be more than the advantages.
I would consider a move here very carefully indeed.

166674 ▶▶ PaulC, replying to Mark, 2, #838 of 2011 🔗

Another woman got 4 weeks when she stopped for petrol on her way home having got off the boat from England!

166423 Pum100, replying to Pum100, 17, #839 of 2011 🔗

My local Co-op store has installed a tall electronic box outside with a flashing light on top. It supposedly counts customers going in and out and the screen says whether to proceed or not.

When I arrived in the rain yesterday, there was a queue of masked shoppers waiting. I tutted to myself, as I thought we’d moved on from queuing. Anyway, the light was flashing red and the sign was stuck at “no entry”. The electronic box was blaring something I couldn’t hear. I suddenly got a fit of the giggles at the absolute stupidity of the situation. Standing in the rain outside an empty shop, waiting for the darlek to let us in. The lady came out after a while and fiddled with the controls on the back to reset it.

“That’ll be in the skip in a week”, I said to my son.

166508 ▶▶ Tenchy, replying to Pum100, 1, #840 of 2011 🔗

Tesco are about to introduce the same.

166519 ▶▶▶ Charlie Blue, replying to Tenchy, #841 of 2011 🔗

My nearest Aldi have had it for months. Never seen the light turn red. I went this morning and it was absolute pandemonium inside.

166556 ▶▶▶▶ Mr Dee, replying to Charlie Blue, #842 of 2011 🔗

Same here. Eternally green. All for show.

166625 ▶▶▶ Ewan Duffy, replying to Tenchy, #843 of 2011 🔗

Tesco in Ireland have had these for months now.

166527 ▶▶ Leemc23, replying to Pum100, 3, #844 of 2011 🔗

Just been to the Turkish Food Centre. Magic. No bollocks to contend with. And about 1/2 the price of anywhere else.

166552 ▶▶ Dave Tee, replying to Pum100, 3, #845 of 2011 🔗

We have the traffic light thing in some Catholic confessionals. When someone is in the ‘box’, kneeling, a red light is triggered outside to warn people not to enter.  On that subject: a couple of weeks back I had one of those out-of-body experiences we’re all becoming used to in these weird times. I turned up at the church to be met by a masked woman with a clipboard, who interrogated me “Have you come for confession?” Having been judged worthy by her to enter the Holy of Holies (the worship space) my case was then referred to another greeter, a gentleman whose job was to direct me the pew where I was to await my shriving opportunity. I was surprised as well as relieved, dear reader, to find that he did not insist upon accompanying me into the confessional itself to advise me on the protocols to be observed there, and possibly to hear a list of my sins at the same time. Meanwhile, behind me I noticed a third apparatchik was feverishly sanitising the pew where my posterior had briefly rested.

166802 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Dave Tee, 3, #846 of 2011 🔗

Does a red light come on when somebody confesses to a particularly egregious sin?

166870 ▶▶▶▶ Dave Tee, replying to annie, 1, #847 of 2011 🔗

Ann, the Seal of the confessional is absolute. That applies to lights too.

166576 ▶▶ Thinkaboutit, replying to Pum100, #848 of 2011 🔗

Someone should creep out in the middle of the night and stick a huge notice on the window saying “Dalek alert”, mock them mercilessly with a few Dalek cartoons.

166429 Steve Hayes, replying to Steve Hayes, 20, #849 of 2011 🔗

We keep seeing Boris Johnson on television not observing social distancing. This morning on the Andrew Marr show, for instance, he and Marr were indoors, not wearing face masks and less than two metres apart. Yet whilst he was failing to observe social distancing, he exhorted all of us to observe social distancing. Are we not supposed to notice?

166433 ▶▶ annie, replying to Steve Hayes, 10, #850 of 2011 🔗

If course not.
Unless he and darling Andrew are in a bubble.

166455 ▶▶▶ Steve Hayes, replying to annie, 3, #851 of 2011 🔗

Andrew and Boris in a support bubble. Interesting idea. Does one of them live in a single person household? But even if they are a support bubble, how does that explain all the other instances of Boris not observing social distancing with people who are not in his household and his putative support bubble?

166524 ▶▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Steve Hayes, 1, #852 of 2011 🔗

He was seen playing cricket with a schoolgirl team when only a couple of months back he was saying cricket balls were a vector for the coronavirus.

166535 ▶▶▶▶▶ Steve Hayes, replying to Bella Donna, 1, #853 of 2011 🔗

Yes, he told the House of Commons that cricket could not re-start because the ball was a vector of the virus. There used to be a time when misleading the House was recognised as ground for resignation.

166613 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Steve Hayes, 2, #854 of 2011 🔗

Saying balls
For cricket
Are vectors
Is balls.
The next time he hectors
Your ball (cricket),
Just tell him
Where you’re going to stick it.

166436 ▶▶ KBuchanan, replying to Steve Hayes, 7, #855 of 2011 🔗

Nope coz rules are for thee not for me.

166447 ▶▶ Gillian, replying to Steve Hayes, 1, #856 of 2011 🔗

Playing Devil’s Advocate, do the TV cameras perhaps make distances look less than they are? I’m not an expert (!) but surely the BBC have rules on social distancing and enforce them? After all, Andrew Marr must himself be in the vulnerable category as male, over 60 and a previous stroke victim.

166471 ▶▶▶ Steve Hayes, replying to Gillian, #857 of 2011 🔗

The notion that it is an optical illusion sounds like the kind of spin that they might be reduced to. But you can assess the distance by looking at both Marr and Johnson. I do not know the height of either of them, but I suspect both are likely to be less than two metres – and there clearly wasn’t the length of one of them between them.

166616 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Gillian, #858 of 2011 🔗

Like those allegedly packed beaches?

166509 ▶▶ Lms23, replying to Steve Hayes, 7, #859 of 2011 🔗

As Boris had CV19 early on, he’d be neither infectious or at risk of being infected. Social distancing and masks would serve no purpose.

166513 ▶▶▶ Charlie Blue, replying to Lms23, 2, #860 of 2011 🔗

But our Government would have us believe otherwise, so I’m not sure that’s relevant!

166543 ▶▶▶ Steve Hayes, replying to Lms23, #861 of 2011 🔗

The laws and guidance do not make any exception for people who have been infected. My point was not that I think people should be social distancing, it was that both Marr (and the BBC) and Johnson have pushed this position.

166430 THE REAL NORMAL PODCAST, 6, #862 of 2011 🔗


Join the gang as we explore the book by George Orwell, 1984 and how the themes from ‘Big Brother’ manifest themselves in our everyday lives under covid restrictions and society.

Have a great Sunday guys!


166435 A. Contrarian, replying to A. Contrarian, 19, #863 of 2011 🔗

So Johnson now wants us to be “fearless” and use common sense whilst at the same time cowering at home because we’ve become too blasé and, in the case of one third of the country, living under draconian local lockdown laws that will penalise you £10000 for visiting another human being.

Someone needs to make a video compilation of all the outrageously contradictory things he comes out with on an almost daily basis.

166439 ▶▶ John P, replying to A. Contrarian, 9, #864 of 2011 🔗

Someone needs to make a video compilation of all the outrageously contradictory things he comes out with on an almost daily basis.

It’d be a bit long wouldn’t it?

166462 ▶▶ Darryl, replying to A. Contrarian, 11, #865 of 2011 🔗

Are the contradictions deliberate or incompetence? The government is being advised by numerous behavioural scientists – they have boasted in the past about how they can control the population without them even being aware. The population is clearly being played.

166483 ▶▶▶ Charlie Blue, replying to Darryl, 7, #866 of 2011 🔗

Either way we are being treated with absolute contempt. It doesn’t matter what ministers say because they continue to be able give non-answers to MP questions in the Commons with impunity and the overwhelming majority of ‘journalists’ make no attempt to hold them to account.

166488 ▶▶ RickH, replying to A. Contrarian, 1, #867 of 2011 🔗

Someone needs to make a video compilation”

BBC? 🙂

166452 Sir Patrick Vaccine, replying to Sir Patrick Vaccine, 13, #868 of 2011 🔗

We have 4 years to show how so many politicians despise ordinary people.

Stopping Brexit and continue Covid lockdowns prove it.

The evidence is overwhelming that lockdowns don’t work. Peru’s hard lockdown has left it with the highest death rate. There was never even any evidence that they worked the first place as they had never happen before.

Of course don’t forget no lockdown Sweden.

These lockdowns are a crime against humanity.  Boris Johnson is enjoying every moment of being a dictator. The Lib Dems vote against renewing the Coronavirus Act, so did the Green Party. Labour abstained.

166464 ▶▶ Tee Ell, replying to Sir Patrick Vaccine, 5, #869 of 2011 🔗

While I agree lockdowns don’t work, I personally have tried to avoid using this as a conclusive example, because they have a large socio-economic divide generally and an unusually high diabetes incidence.

166486 ▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Tee Ell, 6, #870 of 2011 🔗

You’re right. Specific between-country comparisons involve so many variables that it’s not very clever to make too close comparison.

What can be said is the classic null hypothesis statement – that overall there is absolutely no evidence that lockdowns work.

166507 ▶▶▶▶ BeBopRockSteady, replying to RickH, 2, #871 of 2011 🔗

Indeed. And it’s this lack of scientific analysis that is so stark for me. The policies are all just a hit and hope based on common sense knowledge, not science. At what point do we say universal masks haven’t worked for example? The answer is never. We just assume they do.

166540 ▶▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to RickH, #872 of 2011 🔗

Agree, but is is worse, they are likely to be counter-productive, when, in this case, they are shown to not work. This has two elements. In the short-term, adverse consequences in deaths from other causes (heart attacks, strokes, cancers, suicides) will crowd out the deaths saved – apparently – from locking down to prevent the spread of coronavirus. Longer-term, the fact that lockdowns will have been shown to not work now means, eventually, should there ever be a need for a lockdown again (as per what Sir Desmond said in HoC last week) the decision makers would be loathe to do so, and it might be the optimal decision in that particular instance.

166465 leggy, replying to leggy, 9, #873 of 2011 🔗

Four whole minutes after curfew, £1k fine. They checked the receipts. Anyone surprised?


166499 ▶▶ Tenchy, replying to leggy, 10, #874 of 2011 🔗

The police are thick scum.

166505 ▶▶ Tenchy, replying to leggy, 6, #875 of 2011 🔗

And what right have the bastards to inspect receipts?

166520 ▶▶ Leemc23, replying to leggy, 9, #876 of 2011 🔗

Did they take the knee before they fined the owner ?


166478 RickH, replying to RickH, 10, #877 of 2011 🔗

comment image

I think that this graph of mortality in Sweden since 1852 (source : statistikdatabasen.sch.se) is interesting in its clear relationship with UK yearly.mortality.

It clearly shows the relationship of this recent spike with previous years – the same general pattern as for England and Wales over the last quarter century- and puts the ‘Corona’ peak (which is probably a confusion of different agents) into clear perspective.

Interested, BBC? Nah? Thought not.It’s far too uneventful.

166487 ▶▶ Nick Rose, replying to RickH, 2, #878 of 2011 🔗

Very much a “move on, nothing to see here”, but then again, are we really surprised? Thanks for this Rick.

166626 ▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Nick Rose, 1, #879 of 2011 🔗

It just struck me as confirming what I found when I looked at ONS data for the recent period, Nick.

It really is a non-event, isn’t it?

166498 ▶▶ BeBopRockSteady, replying to RickH, 4, #880 of 2011 🔗

Hector Drummond has been very good at putting this years numbers into such a perspective. This is excellent for example


166490 AnotherSceptic, replying to AnotherSceptic, 14, #881 of 2011 🔗

Well Folks, if you all want to know how long this is going to last…here is the answers, from Boris the knob himself.

What a total cunt.


166500 ▶▶ RickH, replying to AnotherSceptic, 18, #882 of 2011 🔗

The PM said people should behave “fearlessly” but with common sense”

So let’s do that : stick two fingers up at the Coronovirus Act, and use common sense to go about our lives as normally as possible.

And, Alexander with the funny name – one question : why is your government so much more ineffective than that of Sweden if you can’t get the country back to normal(ish)?

166506 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to RickH, 12, #883 of 2011 🔗

I will quote the PM the next time I am visited by the Environmental Health.

166518 ▶▶ MaxPower, replying to AnotherSceptic, 4, #884 of 2011 🔗

What I don’t understand about all of this reaction, is that China are back to normal. Surely someone in government is looking at where it originated and thinking what are we doing!?

166539 ▶▶ stefarm, replying to AnotherSceptic, 10, #885 of 2011 🔗

Yes a total cunt.

Richie Allen show this morning played and commented on today’s Marr interview, anybody listening with a half a brain should be able to see what a pile of shit this is and any half decent journalist would of had Doris on the floor begging for mercy

166618 ▶▶▶ RickH, replying to stefarm, 6, #886 of 2011 🔗

Problem – ‘Half-decent’ is way above the pay grade of most ‘journalists’.

166594 ▶▶ Mabel Cow, replying to AnotherSceptic, 7, #887 of 2011 🔗

If the news that “Boris cancels Christmas” doesn’t galvanize the people of this country into action then they really do deserve their fate.

166646 ▶▶▶ CGL, replying to Mabel Cow, 1, #888 of 2011 🔗

Yes but we don’t

166501 Bella Donna, 10, #889 of 2011 🔗

This was uploaded 10 hours ago and it’s worth keeping it current.


Regarding the effectiveness of the PCR tests its being claimed in the video 89 to 94% false positives. The video also reveals no real scientist would have accepted Fergusons model. So what does that say about this government and their advisors?

166510 WhoIsScepticalZebra, #890 of 2011 🔗

Anyone know an email for “Amy” “@skepticalzebra” at


She says she’s after surverys and/or stories of the harms lockdown has done and I’d like to email her a contribution about what it has done to me and the sector I work in. think it would be a novel perspective on a king of lockdown harm not often considered.


166530 Basics, replying to Basics, 11, #891 of 2011 🔗

Dr Reiner Fuellmich’s MUST WATCH 50 mins on a different platform.

Crime against humanity


166595 ▶▶ Mrs issedoff, replying to Basics, 6, #892 of 2011 🔗

If only those people still believing the lies and msm would watch this, it may guide them out of their ridiculous stupor. The problem is that some people can’t be bothered to hear an alternative narrative to the one spewed out daily on the bbc etc. How can anyone STILL think what is going on is because of this virus?, they truly believe that they will be safer masking up to the table in a pub and then removing it and then masking up to go for a pee!.

The last time that I went to the pub, I really wanted to stand up and shout ” what the fck is wrong with you all, can’t you see this is all lunacy, throw the bloody muzzles away and think for yourselves”. I didn’t of course, I sat there seething and wondering why I was spending my money to be sat among all the madness.

166607 ▶▶▶ stefarm, replying to Mrs issedoff, 3, #893 of 2011 🔗

Me too! I will not be going to the pub for a quite a while (possibly never!??) unless I can find a pub with a modicum of common sense i.e. treat me like a human, not a fuckwit.

166597 ▶▶ MiriamW-sometimes-AlanG, replying to Basics, 3, #894 of 2011 🔗

We strongly recommend watching this and sharing it as widely as you can. It is the best take-down of the bogus PCR test (he calls it a fraud) that we’ve seen so far. He is clear, articulate, no-nonsense and offers a way forward using legal channels. MW

We defy anyone to watch this and still believe that any of the ‘cases’ the Govt and media screams on about are anything but a major scam. Who’s ill? Meanwhile, more lockdowns, more tyranny, more lockdown deaths and misery. . . . .

ps ‘The Donald’ has probably got a cold and is saving his energy for the last few weeks of the campaign. MW

166660 ▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Basics, 2, #895 of 2011 🔗

Everyone should watch it.

166536 NickR, 9, #896 of 2011 🔗

Don’t you just love it, Vallance was getting a load of stick for his exaggerated curve so he must have got Dido Harding to throw in an extra 5,000 positives to make it look credible.
What is it with these people?

166550 Melangell, replying to Melangell, 1, #897 of 2011 🔗

A friend passed this on which really concerns me. It seems to go against all the data regarding the virus’s target being elderly and with one or more co-morbidities. Does anyone here know anything about it? Fake news, Soros agenda? Or what?

Dear friends,
I made the first call, and cried . Then I made a hundred more — talking to Amazon chiefs and elders throughout the rainforest.

The voices changed, but it was all one story: of earth’s most resilient people, passionate guardians of the forest, facing complete annihilation by Covid-19 . It’s killing their elders, their children, wives, and warriors.

One man was days from any hospital, and his wife was sick. The next time we spoke, she was dead. And yet he couldn’t stop to grieve. Too many of his people still needed help.

The scale of the suffering nearly broke me — but instead, I got to work on a plan .

I’ve now mapped out the Amazon’s most vulnerable communities and what they need to survive. I know where they are, and how we reach them — and I’m hopeful, because with just one good fundraising response from the Avaaz community, we can save thousands of lives. Medicine, covid tests, urgent food aid — we can deliver it all .

It’s an incredibly ambitious plan, but these people — the Waroni, the Yanesha, the Kayapó, and dozens more — they’ve given all they can to protect their families and the rainforest. Now it’s our turn. Donate now with one click and Avaaz will spend every penny we get on this urgent response :

166571 ▶▶ Thinkaboutit, replying to Melangell, 15, #898 of 2011 🔗

My inner cynic says it’s a cash grabbing scam. All emotion, no data. And who says it’s Covid, could be anything.

166602 ▶▶▶ Polemon2, replying to Thinkaboutit, 3, #899 of 2011 🔗

It just might be noble – from Wikipedia…..
Avaaz, a U.S.-based nonprofit organization launched in January 2007, promotes global activism on issues such as climate change, human rights, animal rights, corruption, poverty, and conflict. The UK-based newspaper The Guardian considers it “the globe’s largest and most powerful online activist network”
But note the last line.

166620 ▶▶▶▶ Ewan Duffy, replying to Polemon2, 5, #900 of 2011 🔗

If the Guardian supports it, caveat emptor.

166734 ▶▶▶▶ calchas, replying to Polemon2, 4, #901 of 2011 🔗

Ferguson’s girlfriend works for Avaaz

166582 ▶▶ Silke David, replying to Melangell, 3, #902 of 2011 🔗

Earlier this year I saw a report (MSM) about Brazil and how the indigenous people have herbs to successfully heal.

166611 ▶▶ RickH, replying to Melangell, 1, #903 of 2011 🔗


166658 ▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Melangell, 1, #904 of 2011 🔗

Ignore it.

166683 ▶▶ Jane in France, replying to Melangell, 6, #905 of 2011 🔗

Don’t have anything to do with Avaaz – that is one dodgy organisation. They just loved the White Helmets, for example, back in the days of the war on Syria.

170914 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to Melangell, #906 of 2011 🔗

Well, it could be a case study in what happens to a population when it stops mixing with the rest of the world – it gets wiped out by the common cold. If masks, social distancing and lockdowns ‘work’ then this is what we are actively doing to ourselves.

166558 Basics, replying to Basics, 7, #907 of 2011 🔗

Here’s some junk from the Scottish political realm – junk is all they do.

Jeanne Freeman – an msp who seems to attract fuck ups like shit to a blanket as they say. She is something to do with health leader or other irrelevant drivel title. She’s outta their come next election one multi-million pound hospital scandal perhaps, or possibly feeling the heat from the covid scandal, or maybe to spend more time with her family.

Freeman tweets:

Jeane Freeman
Now this is just sad….why oh why would you deliberately not credit the leadership of @NicolaSturgeon
– really time to grow up and get past this if you do truly what [sic] to ‘do politics differently’.


~ and that is the standard of the SNP MSP health minister. Just consider for one moment what else her attention should be on, not critising lisa nandy for leaving out niknak from some credit in an interview.

The good news is the snp are crumbling in front out our eyes. Long gone is respect, trust is being shed at a rate of knots too.

166585 ▶▶ jb12, replying to Basics, #908 of 2011 🔗

Are you finding that locally, the view of the SNP, I mean?

166561 Awkward Git, replying to Awkward Git, 4, #909 of 2011 🔗

So with the big jump in uncounted positives adding the those “infected” this makes the virus even less deadly doesn’t it?

166647 ▶▶ Poppy, replying to Awkward Git, 7, #910 of 2011 🔗

You would think, but as I’ve said several times on this forum, it’s a sad indictment of how ridiculous things have become that something which should be cause for relief (lots of cases but very few deaths/hospitalisations) has now become cause for panic and alarm.

166846 ▶▶ BeBopRockSteady, replying to Awkward Git, 3, #911 of 2011 🔗

This is it. I follow a few doom merchant groups on social media to gauge the mood. They are constantly gouging on increasing cases, even saying the government is massively under reporting them too. I point out that would lower the IFR and be good news. They cant take it. They quickly resort to Long Covid arguments.

I also point out the PCR issues and they are slowly acknowledging it. However they focus on False Negatives, saying they are more of an issue as it means the virus is out there even more. You can see their thinking. Confirmation bias to rubber stamp their worst fears.

And yet their faulty logic leads to inevitable contradictory positions. All those extra cases and false negatives lead to, for example:

– good news on the IFR as it drops
– track and trace is a nonsense if you are missing so many False Negatives anyway.

They will often say that we should rescue the False Negatives with a better test but fail to recognise that less sensitivity in the PCR just explodes False Positives. You can’t get out of that bind.

So where do we go? Stop testing asymptomatics and focus on hospitalisation rates in tbe context of seasonal historical data for admissions, as Carl Henegen has written about in the Spectator today.

166569 Jaguarpig, replying to Jaguarpig, 3, #912 of 2011 🔗

What utter shit foot and mouth killed nobody it’s a cold that farmyard animals get it doesn’t even kill them.

166575 ▶▶ Will, replying to Jaguarpig, 4, #913 of 2011 🔗

Hence why Ferguson and King’s (yes that is King of “Independent” Sage) advice to cull and incinerate 10 million of them was their usual terrible advice.

166574 Jules, replying to Jules, 18, #914 of 2011 🔗

So the Nazi Johnson doesn’t want to see hobnobbing in the street after closing time. Of course, this only applies to the hoi polloi. Just waiting for the directive that everyone has to stand upside down with their head in a bucket of sick. No doubt many would shrug and get on with it to ‘keep granny safe’

166578 ▶▶ Silke David, replying to Jules, 11, #915 of 2011 🔗

Living next door to a pub popular with the twenty+ year olds, they just start drinking earlier now at the weekend.

166655 ▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Silke David, 1, #916 of 2011 🔗

I would too. I wish I lived within walking distance to a pub. 😒

166605 ▶▶ RickH, replying to Jules, 6, #917 of 2011 🔗

I reckon closing HoC bars entirely would be a good move to lessen infection.

166665 ▶▶ mhcp, replying to Jules, 3, #918 of 2011 🔗

It’s just “hoi polloi” rather than “the hoi polloi” – hoi is the.

But yes, tea break will soon be over. Everyone on their heads

166672 ▶▶▶ Jules, replying to mhcp, #919 of 2011 🔗

Have an uptick!

166581 Basics, 6, #921 of 2011 🔗

Off topic, but in fact not because I saw the goon making an entire speech behind a mask, I wondered if his voice had been added from a different time zone.. anyway I digress. Joe Biden reminds me of that guy in Deliverance, the one on his rocking chair playing a mean lick of Dueling Banjos.

166587 Cheezilla, replying to Cheezilla, 7, #922 of 2011 🔗

From a comment to the mink article:

Notice also that coronahoax-19 (allegedly) affects humans, chickens (we had some 500k chickens put down because of this here in Aust), now it affects minks apparently. In communist takeovers they ALWAYS attack the food supply so we have seen hoax outbreaks in all food production facilities, now they are using it to attack production of goods too. Observe the pattern. They already told us upfront they expect global famine in a few years.

Scary point. I notice the join-the-dots to nationwide mockdown recently moved to Cornwall and a meat processing plant?

166604 ▶▶ RickH, replying to Cheezilla, 1, #923 of 2011 🔗

Actually – slaughtering mink might be a good idea, given the massive damage I’ve seen them do they do when they escape. But it’s got nothing to do with Corona virus.

166609 ▶▶▶ Ewan Duffy, replying to RickH, 2, #924 of 2011 🔗

I’m surprised there hasn’t been an “outbreak” in badgers yet.

166591 Richard O, replying to Richard O, 18, #925 of 2011 🔗

I tell you in all candour, it will continue to be bumpy through to Christmas and may even be bumpy beyond.

Translation: “Your lives are going to be hell for the foreseeable future.”

If you talk to the scientists they’re all virtually unanimous that by the spring things will be radically different and we’ll be in a different world because that is the normal cycle of a pandemic like this.

Translation: “You are never getting your old lives back. The new normal is permanent.”

Nice of Johnson to clear up these matters. At least we know exactly where we stand.

166677 ▶▶ Dan Clarke, replying to Richard O, 1, #926 of 2011 🔗

We need details

166799 ▶▶ A. Contrarian, replying to Richard O, 2, #927 of 2011 🔗

But a few weeks ago the science was saying it would all be over by Christmas, wasn’t it?

166606 Awkward Git, replying to Awkward Git, 11, #928 of 2011 🔗

Heartening to see all the anti-Boris (including personal attacks), anti-narrative,questioning “what science” stories and comments in today’s MSM.

166630 ▶▶ DRW, replying to Awkward Git, 3, #929 of 2011 🔗

Is it too little too late though?

166638 ▶▶ Darryl, replying to Awkward Git, 5, #930 of 2011 🔗

Certain parts of the media are always on the attack because they want far more draconian measures introduced (Guardian and Independent). At least a few commentators have become a bit more questioning recently such as Matthew Parris – he was absolutely hopeless a few months ago.

166610 James Bertram, replying to James Bertram, 15, #931 of 2011 🔗

Sir John Redwood: ‘On Tuesday night Parliament will have the chance to debate and vote on the Rule of 6 and the related restrictions against larger gatherings.
The decision will be about the Coronavirus Restrictions (No 2) (England) Statutory Instrument…..

….I am interested in your views as I make up my mind concerning Tuesday’s vote, particularly if you are a constituent.


So please respond – your chance to influence.

Also note: ‘…. The Conservative party membership is shifting its view from a substantial majority behind lock downs and strong government action, to the largest group now favouring the more relaxed Swedish approach to create a better balance for business and normal life. …’

166656 ▶▶ RickH, replying to James Bertram, 3, #932 of 2011 🔗

The fact that Redwood has to ask that question confirms all that needs to be said about his general intellect.

166661 ▶▶▶ IanE, replying to RickH, 6, #933 of 2011 🔗

I think he may wish to present his views to the uber-fuhrer backed with evidence!?

166717 ▶▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to RickH, #934 of 2011 🔗

He is one person who’s general intellect few should question, if you know anything about All Souls College, Oxford, fellowship by exam!

166820 ▶▶▶▶ DavidC, replying to Tyneside Tigress, 2, #935 of 2011 🔗

Some of the smartest and most intelligent people I’ve ever met have never been to University. University is not necessarily a measure of intellect (I’m not questioning John Redwood’s, merely making the general point).


166685 ▶▶ Nsklent, replying to James Bertram, 2, #936 of 2011 🔗

I think I will send the video tgat basics posted earlier today regarding the German Corona Investigative group – it basicslly sums up all points perfectly.

166704 ▶▶▶ Major Panic, replying to Nsklent, #937 of 2011 🔗

LOL – I’ve just included it in my comment to his question – he’ll probably reject my comment but will hopefully give the lawyer e few minutes at least…

166817 ▶▶▶ BeBopRockSteady, replying to Nsklent, 1, #938 of 2011 🔗

Any politician who continues with this should know that they are on very icy ground with regards the law. To be willfully ignorant of issues such as PCR testing is not defensible much longer.

166695 ▶▶ Tom Blackburn, replying to James Bertram, #939 of 2011 🔗

That last paragraph is a lie

166709 ▶▶ Lili, replying to James Bertram, #940 of 2011 🔗

Done. My comment is awaiting moderation.

167036 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to James Bertram, #941 of 2011 🔗

It’s unrelated but maybe we should send him the video about the child deaths from mask-wearing?

166621 Draper233, replying to Draper233, 9, #942 of 2011 🔗

More shocking footage from Chairman Dan’s fascist state of Victoria:


His reaction? “…much of this, sorry, all of it can be avoided if people don’t protest…protesting is not only selfish but it’s stupid.”

166631 ▶▶ Darryl, replying to Draper233, 6, #943 of 2011 🔗

Not quite sure what is wrong with Australians but many seem to admire Dictator Dan and his Fascist Police – particularly those who usually cry about human rights and fake fascism normally. Melbourne seems a lost cause.

166640 ▶▶▶ Draper233, replying to Darryl, 17, #944 of 2011 🔗

To repeat a comment I made a few days ago, the problem with Australians is not those that descended from criminals, but those that descended from prison officers – Clive James.

166639 ▶▶ annie, replying to Draper233, 7, #945 of 2011 🔗

yeah, like, if Jews hadn’t had the temerity to exist, the Nazis wouldn’t have had to exterminate them.

166651 ▶▶ RickH, replying to Draper233, 9, #946 of 2011 🔗

To which the only appropriate response is :

“Sieg Heil. Now f.off.”

What beats me is the number of ‘citizens’ who will bleat eternally about ‘politics’ and ‘politicians’ and then do f. all when there is a real need for resistance instead of brainless noise.

166624 Darryl, replying to Darryl, 12, #947 of 2011 🔗

I was interested to see that after all the fuss about lockdowns not happening in Madrid again – surprise surprise they are back with a vengeance. Many of the police seem to be armed with machine guns and look ready to fire. Is it normal for Spanish police to be armed this way? why do the Spanish think it is necessary to have police armed with machine guns out on the street to protect them from a virus, are they reminiscent of living under an authoritarian dictatorship? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKgheV_lvMw It seems blindly obvious that something far more sinister is taking hold.

166657 ▶▶ IanE, replying to Darryl, 3, #948 of 2011 🔗

In my experience (limited) they are often armed with sub-machine guns. Not a pleasant sight!

166867 ▶▶▶ Darryl, replying to IanE, #949 of 2011 🔗

Seems completely over the top to have sub machine guns whilst on duty in a country like Spain! obviously the locals accept it.

166719 ▶▶ Lisa from Toronto, replying to Darryl, 4, #950 of 2011 🔗

That makes me so sad. Spain was our go-to destination in Europe — in fact, we were there from mid-February and had to make our escape back to Canada in mid-March just before Spain locked down. Not sure I ever want to go back, assuming I’d ever be allowed to travel with out a mask or an “immunity passport.” The world is really f*cked up when Florida is looking good to me. At least I can drive there if the border ever re-opens.

166765 ▶▶ Toby Pierides, replying to Darryl, 5, #951 of 2011 🔗

If you stop and think about it, the Spanish memory of a totalitarian world is not so distant. Franco was in power for a long time. The same with Italy (Mussolini). For these countries, dictatorship, martial law, loss of liberties is not something alien to them. Thinking about it, Greece too, with its military junta from 67-74…

166875 ▶▶▶ Darryl, replying to Toby Pierides, 1, #952 of 2011 🔗

It makes it very surprising that in all these countries the citizens seem to give up freedoms so quickly. Quite a few European countries seem to have pretty authoritarian police forces to keep their populations under tight control, don’t think Europeans are a free as they seemed to believe prior to March 2020. Got a feeling any dissent will be crushed going forwards.

166809 ▶▶ BeBopRockSteady, replying to Darryl, 2, #953 of 2011 🔗

You’ll notice a lot of uniforms in Spain. The have a number of different forces that take responsibility for enforcing various laws.

166865 ▶▶ Felice, replying to Darryl, 4, #954 of 2011 🔗

Don’t forget that Spain had many years under a fascist dictatorship and many of the older people still yearn for the old times. The Guardia Civil were a nasty militia in those times, and though reorganised, are not at all cuddly ever, even less now.

166633 kh1485, replying to kh1485, 22, #955 of 2011 🔗

The usual caveat applies (I’m grateful I have some custom) but boy, here in customer la la land, the most remarked upon subject today is the bleeding weather. Yes, because who knew, in October it gets a bit colder, windier and there’s less sunshine than in say, July. But blimey what a shock. I have remarked, somewhat acidly, that the weather is the least of our concerns right now.

166641 ▶▶ Liam, replying to kh1485, 25, #956 of 2011 🔗

I know what you mean. I keep seeing and hearing people talk blithely about utter trivia while the civilisation of a thousand years burns down around them.

166642 ▶▶▶ chaos, replying to Liam, 15, #957 of 2011 🔗

I envy the masses. They think this is all going to end. They still think this is about a virus. Others, like Young and Delingpole.. think this iis merely a comedy of errors. To whom the gods wish to destroy they first make mad. Well it seems the first to be destroyed mentally are those with the ability to think critically. God destroys the thickos with the second wave.

166652 ▶▶▶▶ Lili, replying to chaos, 10, #958 of 2011 🔗

Toby Young obviously does not think it’s a comedy of errors. Do you think he would be spending so much time trying to get the message out there with this website if he thought that? And you obviously are not keeping up to date with his and James’ Ricochet podcast ‘London Calling, if that’s what you think.

167033 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to chaos, #959 of 2011 🔗

A question: do you think there will be any kickback when people are mandatorily vaccinated?
When a kid comes home from school and says they have been vaccinated without the parents’ knowledge? With an UNLICENSED vaccine?

167242 ▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to chaos, #960 of 2011 🔗

Those who, not to whom.

I won’t bother to comment on the rest of the post.

166643 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Liam, 16, #961 of 2011 🔗

Exactly. Right now, I want to go out and yell “Why don’t you people bloody wake up to what is being done to us all?” What indignity and ruination will have to befall us all before they effing rise up?

166670 ▶▶▶▶ bluemoon, replying to kh1485, 8, #962 of 2011 🔗

Can I suggest that you now put mince pies and turkey sandwiches on your menu, hang Christmas lights in the windows and put carols on a loop? Christmas is rumoured to be cancelled this year….

166679 ▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to bluemoon, 7, #963 of 2011 🔗

I’m going to organise a carol singing session …

166680 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Nsklent, replying to kh1485, 13, #964 of 2011 🔗

I am going to pretend to have a big party, balloons, lights, small bonfire etc outside, put on music and sit with a G&T and wait to see how long some little informant calls the police… sorry officer, is it illegal to have a party for one.

166688 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ bluemoon, replying to kh1485, 8, #965 of 2011 🔗

In fact all hospitality business owners should do this: huge signs in their windows announcing a contingency Christmas:
“Boris is cancelling Christmas this year so come and celebrate with us while you can”.
Wouldn’t that wake up the sheeple?

166701 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to bluemoon, 4, #966 of 2011 🔗

And what’s really sad about this is that can you imagine having the same exchange this time last year. You would have thought we had taken leave of our senses.

166707 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ bluemoon, replying to kh1485, 4, #967 of 2011 🔗

Well yes, I think a lot of people have indeed taken leave of their senses.
It will take a huge shock – like cancelling Christmas – to shake them out of their torpor.

166758 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Silke David, replying to kh1485, #968 of 2011 🔗

I always hate it when the temp drops it is always already Freezing.
No, it is october, it is not freezing!

167100 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to kh1485, #969 of 2011 🔗

We have taken leave of our senses.
Or rather, they have.

166687 ▶▶▶▶▶ Fingerache Philip., replying to bluemoon, 1, #970 of 2011 🔗

What about our Jewish,Muslim and Hindu fellow sceptics?

166699 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ bluemoon, replying to Fingerache Philip., 2, #971 of 2011 🔗

Christmas, I’ve noticed, is celebrated in most communities and faiths worldwide. A holiday for families with present giving, special foods, decorating homes. The Christian origins of the festival are long gone, on the whole.

166740 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Fingerache Philip., replying to bluemoon, #972 of 2011 🔗

Yes, I know that the “church” hijacked midwinter festivals.

166755 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ bluemoon, replying to Fingerache Philip., 1, #973 of 2011 🔗

It did, but now it’s been highjacked in its turn by the retail and hospitality industries!

166814 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ DavidC, replying to bluemoon, #974 of 2011 🔗

The origins of Christmas were not Christian they were pagan.


166711 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Fingerache Philip., 4, #975 of 2011 🔗

They are religious minorities in a land in which their religion is not and never has been predominant, they cannot expect to get the same attention as the indigenous majority religion. If someone chooses to do so that’s fine and dandy for them, but it’s irritating to have such minority issues constantly trotted out just because a traditional festivity is suggested.

In reality most jews, muslims and hindus have no problem with this and indulge no unrealistic expectations about it. Which probably makes it irritating for them when others choose to whinge on their behalf.

166743 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Fingerache Philip., replying to Mark, #976 of 2011 🔗

I refer you to the answer I gave to Bluemoon.

166882 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Mark, replying to Fingerache Philip., #977 of 2011 🔗

LOL! A 2000 year old “crime”? Rest on that, if you feel it provides you with a pretext for what you want to do anyway, I suppose.

166648 ▶▶▶ Lili, replying to Liam, 9, #978 of 2011 🔗

Displacement activity. Trivia means they don’t have to confront what’s going on.

166682 ▶▶▶ Fingerache Philip., replying to Liam, 6, #979 of 2011 🔗

It has always been so.
Don’t forget, more people voted in the Strictly come dancing vote than voted in the General election.
I stand to be corrected if I am wrong.

166826 ▶▶▶▶ Sue, replying to Fingerache Philip., 6, #980 of 2011 🔗

exactly most people in this country don’t think past their next cup of tea and shite tv show of so called celebrities – of which there are too many. We’ve dumbed down our population with utter shite and social media for decades that now most don’t have an opinion or bury their head in the sand to avoid the bleedin obvious.

166676 ▶▶ Paul, replying to kh1485, 19, #981 of 2011 🔗

That is something I noticed on a short shopping trip yesterday and it has spooked me quite a bit.
The zombies seem to have accepted the dystopia as normal now,they are going about their business as if it has always been this way and they seem a lot happier than we are.I find this very disturbing indeed.
I reckon if you showed them a video of how people acted at the shops last October they would say it was fake,it seems that this is our Year Zero.

166690 ▶▶▶ stefarm, replying to Paul, 10, #982 of 2011 🔗

Yes, people have accepted a very poor imitation of their former life and freedom. Short memories?? Or mental illness??

Both I think.

166691 ▶▶▶ Fingerache Philip., replying to Paul, 8, #983 of 2011 🔗

There was a woman on the radio the other morning who wanted exactly that. When asked how she would like the present situation to “pan out” she replied “I would like it to stay the same as it is now”

166797 ▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to Paul, 6, #984 of 2011 🔗

Exactly. Thankfully, my equilibrium was restored a smidge when my new lockdown sceptic mate came in at close of play today (the one who kindly provided our shop with leaflets).

We had a good old rant about my ‘incident’ last week and how people are just going along with the crap: provoked a few over-the-top-of spectacle looks from some other customers but I’m past caring now.

And it took a bit longer than I thought, but I have now been designated ”COVID-unsafe’ on TwatAdvisor or whatever it is called.

166800 ▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to kh1485, 7, #985 of 2011 🔗

That will guarantee you my custom if I’m ever in your part of the world.
And make you zombie free? .Why not rejoice?

166839 ▶▶▶▶▶ kh1485, replying to annie, 4, #986 of 2011 🔗

Thanks Annie.

Yes, hopefully it will. Sort of backfired on the brave keyboard warrior though as we had a lovely riposte from one of our loyal regulars immediately after!

I rather suspect who might be behind the orchestrated freezing out of our shop. It’ all really rather nasty – not much “all in this together” in this neck of the woods unless, of course, you are ‘on message’.

Sorry to read earlier of your miserable church experience. Not much Christian charity there.

167103 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to kh1485, 1, #987 of 2011 🔗

Yes, at one time I was wondering whether the rector would consider it more Christian to get the churchwardens to drag me out, or to get the police to do it.
He hasn’t got quite that far yet.

166819 ▶▶ Sue, replying to kh1485, 3, #988 of 2011 🔗

A little poem you may have heard before…

“See the happy moron,
He doesn’t give a damn,
I wish I were a moron
My God, perhaps I am”


166662 Paul, replying to Paul, 25, #989 of 2011 🔗

My wife has just returned from a depressing walk around our estate,from the conversations she’s had it would appear that we are probably the only sceptic family around here.
A couple of the highlights.A local restaurant has had to close for a week because NHS T&T told the owner that they were at a venue at the same time as someone who tested positive,needless to say the restaurant owner is fine and clearly has not got so much as a cold.However,the idiots around here are spreading Chinese whispers that the onwer actually has covid and is ill !,my wife tried to correct the misinformation but it seemed to fall on deaf ears.The last thing the restaurant needs is crap like this being spread around,they are struggling as it is.
My wife spoke to a woman a few doors down from us whose daughter is an NHS nurse,so you can imagine which way that conversation went !.The woman’s daughter is in a big city in Yorkshire and apparently covid there is ‘really bad,everyone that comes into her hospital is testing positive’,her daughter had the virus but is okay now and has even volunteered to join a specialist covid crisis team !.This woman also used to work at the local leisure centre and she asked my wife if she still went swimming,my wife told her no,because of the situation there,the woman replied ‘I don’t blame you,it’s too dangerous you could easily get covid in the changing rooms’,to which my wife responded,’no,not that,I meant the stupid restrictions and hoops you have to jump through just to have half an hours swim’.We think this woman now thinks my wife is loony.

166798 ▶▶ annie, replying to Paul, 6, #990 of 2011 🔗

Why give a damn what she thinks, the zombie cow?

166693 ▶▶ Mabel Cow, replying to 2 pence, 2, #992 of 2011 🔗

Great video from an avuncular host.

I do wish we could come up with another way to say “lies” though. I feel that the average person would automatically dismiss any video with lies in the title as conspiracy theory and would simply not engage.

For a British audience the word bollocks might be better, carrying as it does the implication that the person talking bollocks is an idiot rather than a member of the Illuminati.

I suspect that attacks based on ridicule will appeal more to the British mind than those based on conspiracy theory.

166678 DRW, 7, #993 of 2011 🔗

If “cases” are actually spiking/surging/skyrocketing, then why do we need to deliberately infect people for the dodgy vaccine trials?

166681 Awkward Git, replying to Awkward Git, 36, #994 of 2011 🔗

Got bored so sent this to Central News about their shit “report” on Friday, anyone who has felt threatened or been challenged write to them as well with your experiences – I mentioned the person who reported on here about them being threatened with a stabbing if they did not comply with the muzzling edict so maybe you can write to them to give them grief as well:



I had the misfortune to watch your broadcast at 18:00 on Friday 02nd August 2020 and the “story” (I call it a story as it could not be described as a report) about a business owner having problems when they questioned a customer about not wearing a mask and so on.

You do not seem aware that legally the business owner has not legal right to question a person about not wearing a mask or face covering and they were in the wrong.

In the legislation on only 3 persons are legally allowed to question someone about not wearing a mask/face covering and these are:

  • an on-duty police officer
  • an on-duty CPSO
  • a health officer

and the only answer that the challenged person is legally obliged to answer is “I’m exempt”.

That is it.

The business owner could have been in a lot of trouble if the customer was someone who knew the law and was not the worse the wear for drink (but this is not relevant for the law as they should still not have been challenged by the staff), knew what their rights are under the law and wanted to take it a lot further just to make a point.

Below I have attached an exemptions toolkit from the laworfiction.com website that sets out the actual law on face covering exemptions – which also apply to staff as well as customers if they meet the criteria for being exempt – and that succinctly and clearly explains who can challenge a person not wearing face covering, what they are legally required to answer, how the challenged person can progress the challenge to court and the fines to businesses and persons who do the challenging.

The internet link:


You also made a big song and dance about the threats to the staff of the premises.

What about the increasingly threatening and violent behaviour on an almost daily basis toward those who’s disabilities means they cannot mean a mask/face covering and this is leading to them not leaving their houses, not going shopping, not socialising and so on as they cannot face the threats and aggravation any more?

Want to deny this is happening?

Then you do not deserve to be called either a news broadcaster not journalists.

I know of one person who was threatened to be stabbed on the London Underground recently even when they were wearing a lanyard saying they were exempt and this is not an isolated case.

Both my wife and I have been challenged in an aggressive manner by what can only be called sanctimonious arses righteous with their own jumped-up sense of their own self-importance who did not know the law, had not read the law and did not know there were legally sanctioned exemptions but took it themselves as their self-appointed right to challenge us – they were put down a peg or two by myself as I do know the law and my rights in this matter but this is what is happening on a daily basis to thousands of people because of your (and other broadcasters and MSM and Government) slanted, biased and untruthful reporting of the law.

All of those who cannot wear a mask/facecovering are now feeling like we are being looked at as lepers and should be carrying a bell and saying “unclean”.

In addition to this those people such as my wife and I and many others like us with disabilities that prevent them wearing a face covering feel that the situation is becoming very, very similar to what the Jews faced in pre-war Nazi Germany and that is truly frightening that it is happening in this country and in a matter of only weeks due to the way Government (and MSM such as yourselves and Councils) has mishandled the situation, deliberately pumped out misinformation such as your “story”.

Do the businesses know or care that if an exempt customer is assaulted on their premises they have failed in their duty of care?

I would like to think that you will broadcast another “story” or even better a fact filled report that actually explains this correctly and does not repeat the fearmongering performance you broadcast on Friday and that ended with the threats about the police coming for anyone who is not wearing a mask/facecovering and that actually contains mention of the exemptions that are included in the legislation.

Yours sincerely”

Don’t expect much from them, they’ve never answered or acknowledged anything up to now.

166715 ▶▶ Paul, replying to Awkward Git, 2, #995 of 2011 🔗

Nice one AG,I’ve contacted Central News a couple of times,pre-covid,I never received any form of response.

166689 Julian, replying to Julian, 47, #996 of 2011 🔗

Day 2 in Stockholm

I normally loathe shopping but there were some things I have needed for a while that are best checked out in store rather than bought online

Just being able to walk around shops with no masked people, talk to people, no swerving, was a joy

Even though me and the Mrs are very conscious of what life should be like, it has still been a huge shock to be reminded of how low we have sunk in the UK. Humans quickly get used to things. If we could transport people here for a week it would soon change hearts and minds

166692 ▶▶ RickH, replying to Julian, 11, #997 of 2011 🔗

An interesting contrast, Julian. The susceptibility of the British public isn’t actually much of a surprise. But it’s still shocking.

166712 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to RickH, 9, #998 of 2011 🔗

It would be interesting to understand the forces at work

The Swedish constitution, the courage and integrity of Tegnell, Giesecke and the politicians who backed them up

What else I don’t know because I am ignorant about Sweden

But glad they are holding the line for now

166726 ▶▶▶▶ DRW, replying to Julian, 3, #999 of 2011 🔗

If I lived there I’d be worried about them all “catching up” with everywhere else any moment.

166948 ▶▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to DRW, 1, #1000 of 2011 🔗

I don’t know as I’ve only spoken casually to people in passing but the outward signs of coronabollocks are minimal and most smaller independent establishments have more or less zero sign of it
I must have passed thousands of people today as I was out all day in the city, the number of people with masks on was in single figures

I think those things give a fair indication of what people really think

166733 ▶▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Julian, 6, #1001 of 2011 🔗

One thing I’ve picked up is that Public Health is protected from direct political influence, and could therefore act independently.

166694 ▶▶ Lisa from Toronto, replying to Julian, 11, #1002 of 2011 🔗

I’m so jealous! I was never a big shopper, but there are a few things I’d love to be able to shop for now that are very difficult to buy online (hiking boots, bed linen…). Unfortunately, I don’t think I’d survive wearing a mask on a plane overseas. Enjoy your trip back to normality! Sounds heavenly.

166950 ▶▶▶ Julian, replying to Lisa from Toronto, 2, #1003 of 2011 🔗

It could be a new business sector- normality tourism

166696 ▶▶ leggy, replying to Julian, 4, #1004 of 2011 🔗

I’m very tempted to have a break there, but I won’t want to come back!

166702 ▶▶ chaos, replying to Julian, 5, #1005 of 2011 🔗

The coup.. the track and chip and depopulate and decarbornise agenda.. seems to be going at different speeds in different places.

166705 ▶▶ DRW, replying to Julian, 3, #1006 of 2011 🔗

Sounds great. I can only imagine just living in the moment, no bullshit diktats in sight.

166761 ▶▶ BJJ, replying to Julian, 1, #1007 of 2011 🔗

Sounds like the Stockholm Syndrome

166792 ▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to Julian, 1, #1008 of 2011 🔗

Will you have to quarantine yourself on your return?

166812 ▶▶▶ Draper233, replying to Bella Donna, 5, #1009 of 2011 🔗

Nope, rather embarrassingly for the UK government, Sweden was quietly added to the travel corridor list a few weeks ago (when I was visiting actually)

166697 chaos, 25, #1010 of 2011 🔗

Who would have thunk it? The lying lazy womanizing son of a woman-beating womanizer.. cheated on his wife several times, six maybe 7 children.. now with a tree hugger young girl near half his age.. sold us out (along with the other puppets) to the depopulation, control and track agenda.

166700 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 9, #1011 of 2011 🔗

“2020 was a strange year. A different year… The worst pandemic since 1918 hit the world. Everything came to a stop. Life wasn’t. To see how terrible Covid19 was, I looked at the mortality of over 30 countries. let’s get in to this:


 C-19 had excess death and a clear peak in mortality highest in 40 years (UK, Spain, Italy, Belgium and Netherlands)
But other countries lower and some no excess death at all. Spanish flu had an excess death in all countries. There must be an explanation in the pandemic death peak in these countries more to do with how elderly is cared for than other explanations

166706 ▶▶ Mabel Cow, replying to swedenborg, 13, #1012 of 2011 🔗

Perhaps the differences in the numbers of “COVID-19 deaths” has more to do with the willingness of each country’s leadership to misclassify deaths than it has to do with underlying variability in the human body.

166722 ▶▶▶ BeBopRockSteady, replying to Mabel Cow, 3, #1013 of 2011 🔗

Absolutely. There are wholes everywhere you look with one common goal among them. To up the numbers and associated fear among the general public

166824 ▶▶▶▶ DavidC, replying to BeBopRockSteady, #1014 of 2011 🔗


166724 ▶▶▶ Mabel Cow, replying to Mabel Cow, 5, #1015 of 2011 🔗

Tin-foil hat aside, it might also help if there was a gold-standard diagnostic test, instead of the dial-a-result PCR test.

When I heard today that everyone would test positive at 60 amplification cycles, I very nearly had a stroke.

166730 ▶▶▶▶ DRW, replying to Mabel Cow, 3, #1016 of 2011 🔗

Wait until they’re actually running that many!

166742 ▶▶▶▶▶ Mabel Cow, replying to DRW, 7, #1017 of 2011 🔗


They will probably turn the dial up to 60 in the weeks immediately before the placebo vaccine is available, and then progressively turn it down to zero in the months following the country-wide needlefest.

166823 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ DavidC, replying to Mabel Cow, 1, #1018 of 2011 🔗

Unfortunately you could be right.


166803 ▶▶▶▶ BeBopRockSteady, replying to Mabel Cow, 2, #1019 of 2011 🔗

Anything over 30CT is a problem

167511 ▶▶▶▶ Lms23, replying to Mabel Cow, #1020 of 2011 🔗

As another Lockdown Sceptic said, at that number of cycles, outer space would test positive.

166728 ▶▶ RickH, replying to swedenborg, 4, #1021 of 2011 🔗

The data, referring to ‘peaks’ is partial, and misleading.

The peak infection > mortality rate in the UK was high – but short-lived. As a consequence, the overall mortality was far from the highest in 40 years.

In fact it was only the eighth highest in 27 years.

This emphasizes how you have to be extremely careful with constructs like ‘excess deaths’ and comparisons to ensure proper timescales and perspectives.

… and that’s before we get onto ancillary issues, such as the ‘dry tinder’ in the 2020 population, and the major issues around the classification of deaths which have so fogged the issues.

Bottom line : even in the UK, overall, this was nothing exceptional.

166766 ▶▶▶ swedenborg, replying to RickH, #1022 of 2011 🔗

The reason for the graph was more to contrast with Spanish flu which hit younger people.The difference with C-19 is so striking that some countries are hardly in the territory of pandemic.

166708 Kevin 2, replying to Kevin 2, 4, #1023 of 2011 🔗

I wish he had stuck with Airfix modelling….

Full Curriculum Vitae:-

Q1. In 2005, Ferguson said that up to 200 million people could be killed from bird flu. He told the Guardian that ‘around 40 million people died in 1918 Spanish flu outbreak… There are six times more people on the planet now so you could scale it up to around 200 million people probably.’ In the end, only 282 people died worldwide from the disease between 2003 and 2009.How did he get this forecast so wrong?

Q2. In 2009, Ferguson and his Imperial team predicted that swine flu had a case fatality rate 0.3 per cent to 1.5 per cent. His most likely estimate was that the mortality rate was 0.4 per cent. A government estimate, based on Ferguson’s advice, said a ‘reasonable worst-case scenario’ was that the disease would lead to 65,000 UK deaths. In the end swine flu killed 457 people in the UK and had a death rate of just 0.026 per cent in those infected.Why did the Imperial team overestimate the fatality of the disease? Or to borrow Robinson’s words to Hancock this morning: ‘that prediction wasn’t just nonsense was it? It was dangerous nonsense.’

Q3. In 2001 the Imperial team produced modelling on foot and mouth disease that suggested that animals in neighbouring farms should be culled, even if there was no evidence of infection. This influenced government policy and led to the total culling of more than six million cattle, sheep and pigs – with a cost to the UK economy estimated at £10 billion.It has been claimed by experts such as Michael Thrusfield, professor of veterinary epidemiology at Edinburgh University, that Ferguson’s modelling on foot and mouth was ‘severely flawed’ and made a ‘serious error’ by ‘ignoring the species composition of farms,’ and the fact that the disease spread faster between different species.Does Ferguson acknowledge that his modelling in 2001 was flawed and if so, has he taken steps to avoid future mistakes?

Q4. .In 2002, Ferguson predicted that between 50 and 50,000 people would likely die from exposure to BSE (mad cow disease) in beef. He also predicted that number could rise to 150,000 if there was a sheep epidemic as well. In the UK, there have only been 177 deaths from BSE. Does Ferguson believe that his ‘worst-case scenario’ in this case was too high? If so, what lessons has he learnt when it comes to his modelling since?

Q5. Ferguson’s disease modelling for Covid-19 has been criticised by experts such as John Ioannidis, professor in disease prevention at Stanford University, who has said that: ‘The Imperial College study has been done by a highly competent team of modellers. However, some of the major assumptions and estimates that are built in the calculations seem to be ‘substantially inflated’. Has the Imperial team’s Covid-19 model been subject to outside scrutiny from other experts, and are the team questioning their own assumptions used? What safeguards are in place?

Q6. On 22 March, Ferguson said that Imperial College London’s model of the Covid-19 disease is based on undocumented, 13-year-old computer code, that was intended to be used for a feared influenza pandemic, rather than a coronavirus.How many assumptions in the Imperial model are still based on influenza and is there any risk that the modelling is flawed because of these assumptions?


166713 ▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Kevin 2, 8, #1024 of 2011 🔗

My question is this “why the hell did anyone listen to them after their first screw up?”

Oh I know – it’s down to who is funding g them.

166731 ▶▶▶ Kevin 2, replying to Awkward Git, #1025 of 2011 🔗

Took his inspiration from ‘Ripping Yarns’ apparently:-


166727 ▶▶ Mayo, replying to Kevin 2, -9, #1026 of 2011 🔗

“In 2005, Ferguson said that up to 200 million people could be killed from bird flu”


“In the UK, there have only been 177 deaths from BSE ”


Q6 is irrelevant. Anyone running a simple S-I-R model would get similar results to Ferguson if they used the same initial assumptions. The code is a total red herring. Even Ionnadis recognises this (See Q5)

166747 ▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to Mayo, 7, #1027 of 2011 🔗

His range was 50 to 50,000 i.e. 5 x 10^1 to 5 x 10^4 – 3 orders of magnitude.

Saying he was right is like saying he predicted “some people will die”

If he had said 100 plus or minus 20% it would be better.

When you set the range so large it becomes practically unfalsifiable.

167000 ▶▶ shorthand, replying to Kevin 2, #1028 of 2011 🔗

I remember travelling down through (I think) the Pennines area with work during the foot and mouth. I seen one of the pyres from the ‘slaughter on suspicion’ policy maybe a mile or two from the road I was driving. It’s a sight and smell that will remain with me till the day I die.
How can one man be allowed cause so much pandemonium?

166718 Cheezilla, replying to Cheezilla, 2, #1029 of 2011 🔗

The full story of what’s behind the Covid19 caper is neither credible nor interesting to the ordinary Dick and Jane. Those of us who want to save our liberties need to come down to earth, and accept that the mass of voters worry about far more mundane things than we do.

The only viable strategy for the thinking 16% from now on is to focus on those parts of the future that the Wishful Unthinking 45% will not be happy about.

Well worth a read!


166723 ▶▶ Richard O, replying to Cheezilla, 3, #1030 of 2011 🔗

The thinking 16%?! If it was as high as that then we would not be in this mess.

I would put our numbers at 1% absolute maximum.

166764 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Richard O, 1, #1031 of 2011 🔗


166720 THE REAL NORMAL PODCAST, replying to THE REAL NORMAL PODCAST, 38, #1032 of 2011 🔗

New podcast THE REAL NORMAL episode out now:


166781 ▶▶ Nsklent, replying to THE REAL NORMAL PODCAST, 7, #1033 of 2011 🔗

Thanks for the laugh – such eloquence – love it.

166789 ▶▶ Tenchy, replying to THE REAL NORMAL PODCAST, 12, #1034 of 2011 🔗

You might as well. It would do as much good as wrapping it around your face.

166729 arfurmo, replying to arfurmo, 1, #1035 of 2011 🔗

Still trying to work out what the “grim milestone” is. Handjob looking at his worst.

166756 ▶▶ Draper233, replying to arfurmo, 9, #1036 of 2011 🔗

Meanwhile in Sweden, where the plague is surely running amok, the death rate from Covid-19 on 1st October was ZERO for the fourth consecutive day.

166775 ▶▶▶ PhilipF, replying to Draper233, 12, #1037 of 2011 🔗

I think you are wrong. Modelling clearly shows that the streets are full of dead and dying Swedes. Serves them right – always so perfect with their blonde hair, herrings (many kinds) and uninhibited attitude to sex.

166780 ▶▶▶▶ Bella Donna, replying to PhilipF, 1, #1038 of 2011 🔗


167025 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to PhilipF, 1, #1039 of 2011 🔗

Yes, went for a walk here today and was tripping over corpses everywhere I went!!!!

166732 chaos, replying to chaos, 12, #1040 of 2011 🔗

You know.. the corona vaccine could be anything.. placebo or something more sinister.. they (the governments) manipulate the figures, call deaths covid that are not covid deaths. If they failed to develop a real vaccine they could still progress toward the digital ID required in the new Green Mirror abnormal.. they could still progress to future vaccines with a placebo/other. All they would need to do is hail it a success and roll it out and then scale back the tests. All the mainstream media would hail its success. Clap clap clap clap.. arf arf. And again we would be free to whizz around on bicycles and scooters. Just not cars or planes.Free to hum and sing again.. and perhaps have a one night stand.

166748 ▶▶ DRW, replying to chaos, 5, #1041 of 2011 🔗

I suspect the vax/ID will both be sold as freedom from moonshot. So yes, less people tested, less “cases”, maybe even dial back the PCR cycles. But HMG/MSM can claim it saved the day.

166735 Draper233, replying to Draper233, 19, #1042 of 2011 🔗

This is quite a damning piece of evidence from the ONS:

Deaths in private homes (a personal residence) are still occurring above five-year average levels; since week ending 26 July, there have been more excess (above average) non-COVID-19 deaths in private homes than COVID-19 deaths in all settings (hospitals, care homes, private homes and others combined) each week.

Quite incredible that this is not getting the attention it deserves and I consider the likes of the BBC as complicit in these excess deaths given their refusal to properly broadcast the devastating effects of lockdown measures.

166737 Old Normal, replying to Old Normal, 6, #1044 of 2011 🔗

There’s talk of more restrictions in Scotland because the virus is taking over again or something. No deaths announced today and the number in intensive care has gone down since yesterday.

No new thinking around the fact the first lockdown was a disaster. Let’s just do it again!

Interesting use of language in the article I just saw: “In Scotland, there are currently 210 people in hospital confirmed as having the virus, an increase of 19 since Saturday.”

How many are in hospital because of the virus and are being treated exclusively for it?

Ever since Carl Heneghan forced them to revise the hospital numbers, they’ve been creeping back up but without any transparency around my question above.

166746 ▶▶ Draper233, replying to Old Normal, 5, #1045 of 2011 🔗

The CDC have stated that the percentage of people dying of Covid (as opposed to with Covid) is just 6% .

I think this is indicative of how many of those hospitalisations will be because of Covid only.

166749 Cheezilla, replying to Cheezilla, 1, #1046 of 2011 🔗

Did anyone else see this?


“This study could go in two very different directions,” said Michael Levin, professor of paediatrics at Imperial College London. “It could reveal that cross-reacting antibodies explain why children are less likely to suffer from severe Covid-19, or it might show patients’ own immune responses cause life-threatening effects.”

I wonder what they’re really up to!
Any ideas?

166776 ▶▶ p02099003, replying to Cheezilla, 4, #1047 of 2011 🔗

It is likely to show both. Children’s immune system is perfectly capable of handling a viral infection as the professor would know, most viral infections have few symptoms, typically temperature and swollen glands. Older people are more likely to have an immune system that overreacts causing blood clotting disorders amongst others, it’s called sepsis.

166868 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to p02099003, #1048 of 2011 🔗

Exactly. So the young don’t need a vaccine and the old would be at risk from one.
Welllcome is involved, so I wonder what they’re actually hoping to “prove.”

166804 ▶▶ Kevin 2, replying to Cheezilla, 4, #1049 of 2011 🔗

Antibody dependent enhancement of disease is much more likely to be a problem for the vaccines (or should I say for the recipients ), than it is for children with cross-reactive immunity from exposure to prior respiratory viruses.
Kids typically have an efficient T-cell mediated immune defence, rather than a strong antibody response. What we do know is that from Sweden’s 1.8m kids, who remained at school throughout, there was not a single death.
The irony for the vaccines is that if they produce high antibody titers, then disease enhancement, such as the characteristic cytokine storm, becomes more likely, when a vaccinated individual is exposed to the virus on the first or the second time.
(And that’s in addition to the risk of an auto-immune reaction such as TM as a direct result of vaccination).
Kawasaki disease is a theoretical risk for kids (if exposed to a very high viral load), and there has been isolated reports following exposure to the virus.
But the greater risk of this disease will come from a vaccine.

My opinion.

Pure evil.

166869 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Kevin 2, #1050 of 2011 🔗

Yes. I was wondering if they were hoping to enhance the storm, rather than prove the vaccine is unnecessary or potentially harmful.

I noticed Wellcome is involved so was immediately suspicious.

166956 ▶▶▶ p02099003, replying to Kevin 2, #1051 of 2011 🔗

Children tend to depend on the innate system until about 5 years of age, when they start to develop their adaptive immune system. I checked this with a paediatrician colleague.

166752 Country Mumkin, replying to Country Mumkin, 6, #1052 of 2011 🔗



11.15am update: Extinction Rebellion protest marches to finally be outlawed in areas of high Covid rate
Extinction Rebellion protest marches could be limited to just six people in areas with high infection rates across the country under stricter rules being considered by ministers.
Last month, the Government imposed the strict ‘rule of six’ restriction banning groups of more than six people meeting indoors or outdoors. But now ministers are looking to restrict the number of protesters at marches.
These restrictions could restrict the number of people attending marches such as Extinction Rebellion and Black Lives Matter protests.
A Government source said: “There is a move to limit political protests in areas which are in the top tier to six people.
“While this country cherishes the right to demonstrate peacefully, some feel it action is needed if the event risks spreading the virus even further.
“It is not just the demonstrators who are at risk but innocent police officers who are called upon to patrol it.”

166762 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Country Mumkin, 12, #1053 of 2011 🔗

Wonder how they arrived at ‘innocent police officers’ ? :))

166768 ▶▶▶ Steve, replying to JohnB, 9, #1054 of 2011 🔗

All police officers are innocent, no matter what they do. Shoot a Brazilian and lie about it, that’s fine, beat up protesters, also fine, lie about a politician calling you a pleb, perfectly acceptable behaviour…

166863 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to JohnB, #1055 of 2011 🔗

Still coughing from reading that bit!

166793 ▶▶ Nsklent, replying to Country Mumkin, 5, #1056 of 2011 🔗

But I thought the police had magic masks, that are so essential and effective in keeping us safe.

166763 Kevin 2, replying to Kevin 2, 7, #1057 of 2011 🔗

Oxford Vaccine (AZD1222):-

“The EU regulator is poised to start a review of AstraZeneca and Oxford University’s COVID-19 vaccine, but the FDA is widening its investigation into the shot’s safety, according to reports citing people close to the project.
According to Bloomberg, the EMA could announce the start of a “rolling review” of AZD1222 – also known as ChAdOx1 – as early as this week, which would put the vaccine firmly on course to be the first approved for use in Europe .
Reuters meanwhile suggests that the vaccine could be subjected to further delays in the US as the FDA has started sifting through data from earlier trials of vaccines developed by the same scientific team to look for safety signals.
The US arm of a phase 3 trial of AZD1222 has remained on a clinical hold since 6 September, after a subject in the UK was feared to have developed a neurological side-effect after receiving the vaccine, but was swiftly restarted elsewhere.
AZ has denied reports that the patient developed transverse myelitis, an inflammation of the spinal cord that has been observed after viral infections as well as some vaccines, but hasn’t revealed the nature of the illness, citing patient confidentiality reasons.
Meanwhile, there have been some inconsistencies between the company’s reporting on the case and that of Oxford University which reportedly prompted a US National Institutes of Health investigation into the incident.
The Reuters report suggests that the FDA’s decision to widen its probe is borne out of caution rather than any strong belief that the vaccine has side effects. However, it says the probe has been made more complicated because data provided by trial investigators is in a different format to that usually required by the agency.
Safety is always of paramount importance in new medicine development, but particularly so with vaccines as they are administered to healthy people. Severe symptoms are also uncommon in people who are infected with the SARS-CoV-2 virus making the risk-benefit calculations even more challenging.
AZ limited its comments on the situation to a brief statement that it is “continuing to work with the FDA to facilitate review of the information needed to make a decision regarding resumption of the US trial.”
According to the World Health Organization (WHO), AZ’s vaccine is already the furthest ahead in a list of 40 vaccines in clinical trials for COVID-19, and that position will be consolidated if the rumour of a rolling review by the EMA is accurate.
Earlier this year, the EMA’s head of vaccines – Marco Cavaleri – suggested that the first approval of a COVID-19 vaccine could come in the EU before the end of 2020.”



“While tests of the vaccine co-developed with Oxford University have resumed in the UK, experts from the US National Institutes of Health have launched an investigation into the incident, which is still being kept under wraps by the UK pharma for patient confidentiality reasons.
Side-effects that caused AstraZeneca to pause its coronavirus vaccine trial are unlikely to be caused by the shot according to documents posted online and cited in other press reports– but the FDA is yet to give the go ahead for US testing to restart.
CNN reported that Dr Avindra Nath, intramural clinical director and leader of viral research at the National Institute for Neurological Disorders and Stroke, is involved with an investigation that could last several months.
Nath told CNN: “The highest levels of NIH are very concerned.
“Everyone’s hopes are on a vaccine, and if you have a major complication the whole thing could get derailed.”
The NIH wants tissue and blood samples from the UK patient, which it has yet to receive from UK investigators.
AZ has not confirmed whether the side-effect was transverse myelitis, inflammation of the spinal cord that can be caused by several conditions, including a viral infection.
The vaccine is based on a weakened virus that causes cold symptoms in chimpanzee, which causes an immune respone with genetic material coding for the spike protein found on the surface of the coronavirus.
The issue that is vexing the US doctors is that vaccines are given to healthy people, meaning the tolerance for any side-effect is much lower than in medicines where patients are already sick.”


166801 ▶▶ Nessimmersion, replying to Kevin 2, 3, #1058 of 2011 🔗

I have read that the shorters are putting their money on a vaccine NOT being a success and pharma shares to drop!

166808 ▶▶ Poppy, replying to Kevin 2, 7, #1059 of 2011 🔗

‘Severe symptoms are also uncommon in people who are infected with the SARS-CoV-2 virus making the risk-benefit calculations even more challenging’ – this is practically an admission that for the vast majority of people who don’t develop symptoms, the vaccine is unnecessary. Good luck getting anyone under 50 to have it.

166827 ▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Poppy, 13, #1060 of 2011 🔗

Well – I’m a quarter of a century on from the 50 mark – and I wouldn’t touch this snake-oil with a barge-pole; such is my risk-benefit calculation.

The situation with this virus and its potential vaccines is that it requires more and longer proper RCT trialling – not less. You don’t need to be a genius to work that out.

Additionally, the toxic mix of financial, political and professional interests equally better rather than lesser regulation to ensure reasonable safety.

No thank you.

166874 ▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to RickH, 3, #1061 of 2011 🔗

I am over 50 and possibly slightly vulnerable to Covid but they’ll have to strap me down to give it to me

166838 ▶▶▶ DRW, replying to Poppy, 4, #1062 of 2011 🔗

Unfortunately I expect yet another virtue-party and plenty of twats wanting their sleeve-up selfie meme to show “they care”.

166862 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to DRW, 1, #1063 of 2011 🔗

As long as it’s a free choice, good luck to them.

167002 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Kevin 2, #1064 of 2011 🔗

ChAdOx1  was the name the African scientist used (in her video), for the vaccine that has been mass-trialled in Africa.

You can bet money has been paid by Gates for the vaccine to be approved so quickly.

And why have they suddenly backtracked on the transverse myelitis as a side effect? Likely it is because Bhakdi has been telling people in interviews how rare that condition is otherwise, and that for 3 people to develop it, all of whom have been injected with the same vaccine, means it is pretty much 100% that it was vaccine-induced..

166769 Major Panic, 6, #1065 of 2011 🔗

For anybody feeling down and stressed by lockdown, face nappies, idiot politicians, corrupt scientists, etc….

This sound is much more relaxing than the sounds of a burbling brook or waves breaking on the shore….


166771 Ceriain, replying to Ceriain, 7, #1066 of 2011 🔗

Scottish numbers: 4 October 2020


758 new cases of COVID-19 reported; this is 13.3% of newly tested individuals

13.3% positives! Krankie’s lost the plot!

167164 ▶▶ Basics, replying to Ceriain, #1067 of 2011 🔗

She is properly crackimg. Signs are there in her person.

166773 T. Prince, 11, #1068 of 2011 🔗

“The real epidemic is falsehood. It’s well past time for politicians and journalists to take off their masks and start telling the truth”

Andrew Mahon: The Canadian Casedemic


166788 Ozzie, replying to Ozzie, 22, #1069 of 2011 🔗

Interesting comment from Petronella Wyatt in this week’s Spectator (apologies if this has already been posted):

“My ex Boris Johnson has Turkish blood, of which he has often boasted. It seems to have come to the fore. Boris now rules by decree, forgetting that it is parliament that is supreme in this country. Either that, or he has splinters in the windmills of his mind. A prime minister cannot exist in a permanent state of war with both the legislature and the electorate, which is given both barrels on an almost daily basis as punishment for the government’s Covid mistakes. I should like to remind the PM of one of his favourite quotes, attributed to Benjamin Franklin, which he would repeat in happier days: ‘Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.’ “

166856 ▶▶ Draper233, replying to Ozzie, 2, #1070 of 2011 🔗

“There are no disasters, only opportunities. And, indeed, opportunities for fresh disasters.”
Boris Johnson

166857 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Ozzie, 3, #1071 of 2011 🔗

‘Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.’

And isn’t that exactly the attitude dePiffle has to the proles?

166796 BeBopRockSteady, replying to BeBopRockSteady, 9, #1072 of 2011 🔗

Beware the fact checkers. They really are awful. The headline says you can ‘challenge’ people for not wearing a mask. The use of that word is intentional. Has to be.


Even though their article goes on to clearly state the law that the word ‘exempt’ is enough, it has chosen to imply that people challenge the non maskers.

They are funded in large part by Google and Facebook directly.

166821 ▶▶ Kevin 2, replying to BeBopRockSteady, 11, #1073 of 2011 🔗

FullFact funded by Soros, Google, Facebook, and indirectly by the WEF, and the World Bank.

166993 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Kevin 2, #1074 of 2011 🔗

Probably by Gates too, somewhere along the line..

166833 ▶▶ Jules, replying to BeBopRockSteady, 7, #1075 of 2011 🔗

This site (Full Fact) is pure propaganda, and nothing is beneath its scabrous authors. The brunt will be felt by vulnerable people who genuinely cannot wear masks. For such people the consequences could be catastrophic. Make no mistake, this is intentional.

166861 ▶▶ Jakehadlee, replying to BeBopRockSteady, 1, #1076 of 2011 🔗

Fullfact are appalling

166912 ▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to BeBopRockSteady, 2, #1077 of 2011 🔗

Snopes no better, they are compromised as well and been aught out changing findings after receiving “donations” from interested parties.

167294 ▶▶▶ Stringfellow Hawke, replying to Awkward Git, #1078 of 2011 🔗

Snopes are atrocious, they were caught red handed running interference for the Democrats after the Orlando nightclub Pulse shooting – desperately tried to claim the fact that the killer was a registered Democrat, didn’t mean at all that he was a registered Democrat he was prob a Republican… pathetic bunch.

166806 JHuntz, replying to JHuntz, 15, #1079 of 2011 🔗

Not had a chance to read all the headlines and articles today. However, the most incredible news of today has to be the five welders who have been jailed for two weeks for eating lunch together on the Isle of Mann. The isle of Mann being the epicentre of the virus with no deaths since May and currently 3 cases. Unbelievable!!!


166834 ▶▶ Sue, replying to JHuntz, 8, #1080 of 2011 🔗

So sonny boy what you in the clink for…murder, rape, pedophilia, theft…nope having lunch with a few mates. You couldn’t make it up. 🙂

166845 ▶▶▶ JHuntz, replying to Sue, 3, #1081 of 2011 🔗

Yes, I suspect the covid criminals will become the new prison pedos where the other criminals judge them as some sort of lepers.

166922 ▶▶ PhilipF, replying to JHuntz, #1082 of 2011 🔗

Insane. Snitched on too.

166928 ▶▶ Tee Ell, replying to JHuntz, #1083 of 2011 🔗

Jailed!!!? What the actual.

166810 Dan Clarke, replying to Dan Clarke, 9, #1084 of 2011 🔗

Asked my son if he wears a mask, I was banned from talking about any of it as his muzzle wearing partner said it ‘upsets her’. So he smirked and said ‘well to get in the shop and then everyone takes them off, don’t know anyone who actually shops in them’. Still complying I thought, but maybe what has always been done to get around ‘the rules’

166816 ▶▶ JHuntz, replying to Dan Clarke, 11, #1085 of 2011 🔗

Well in Scotland they wear them with pride 99%+ compliance. I don’t know why Scots belt out the national anthem as if we are some sort of freedom fighters.

166829 ▶▶▶ RickH, replying to JHuntz, 9, #1086 of 2011 🔗

It’s a new anthem : “Snowflake of Scotland”

166859 ▶▶▶ Jakehadlee, replying to JHuntz, 8, #1087 of 2011 🔗

Rather like the whole “Keep Calm and Carry On” myth – when it came to an actual (minor) threat the British “Wet The Bed and Threw in the Towel”

166871 ▶▶▶ Old Normal, replying to JHuntz, 1, #1088 of 2011 🔗

Yeah, I’m definitely in the minority but I hate shopping anyway so will leave them to it.

167175 ▶▶ Ozzie, replying to Dan Clarke, #1089 of 2011 🔗

Just asked my son about this – he does the same thing – wears it to get in (makes the motion of putting it on) and then takes it off when inside the shop.

166832 paulito, replying to paulito, 23, #1090 of 2011 🔗

Fed up of hearing how politicians like fat lying turd Alexander Johnson panicked over the Wuhan f lu. None of this was a mistake due to panic. They are all responsible for crimes against humanity. There is no excuse for any of them anywhere. Criminals all.

166907 ▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to paulito, 6, #1091 of 2011 🔗

Not panic, deliberate destruction of our country’s society and economy.

166835 Kevin 2, replying to Kevin 2, 10, #1092 of 2011 🔗

Third child mask death in Germany is real.
But authorities are covering up.


166886 ▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to Kevin 2, 3, #1093 of 2011 🔗

Jesus Christ. This is beyond terrible. It needs to be exposed

166937 ▶▶ p02099003, replying to Kevin 2, #1094 of 2011 🔗

This came up on https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/leicester-news/more-200-new-coronavirus-cases-4573984 , I referred to the reports from Germany and was called a scare monger.

166983 ▶▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to p02099003, #1096 of 2011 🔗

I don’t trust fact checkers… and this fact checker said it was spread by a random punter whereas the bitchute videos are doctors within the German collective

167161 ▶▶▶▶ Basics, replying to Country Mumkin, 1, #1097 of 2011 🔗

Gates has money in fsct checkers. It info that is out there. Very interesting to see who has funded the fact checkers – they are all essentially self appointed.

Not a spit away from the BBC disinformation unit.

167030 ▶▶▶ Kevin 2, replying to p02099003, #1098 of 2011 🔗

While many on the left and the establishment right insist “big tech bias” is non-existent, the background of and individuals involved with Lead Stories suggests otherwise.
Lead Stories Chairman and founder Perry Sanders is a devout Democrat, donating over $10,000 to political campaigns – every penny going to Democratic candidates.
Sanders donated $3,700 to Hilary Clinton ‘s presidential campaign and gave $4,000 to Obama’s 2008 presidential effort .
Sanders – also known as Michael Jackson’s family lawyer – donated $2,000 to failed Democratic congressional candidate Irv Halter in 2014, $500 to Democratic Senator Michael Bennet in 2009, and $300 to failed Democratic congressional candidate Hal Bidlack .
comment image Lead Stories founder Perry Sanders donates exclusively to Democrats
Sanders is politically active beyond campaign contributions: he launched a “Stop the Hypocrisy” campaign in favor of marijuana legalization and “Fix The USA,” a plan that would “bring U.S. unemployment to zero via a $750 billion bank-funded investment offensive.
Lead Stories’ political donations and activism doesn’t stop there.
Victoria Eavis, a writer for the site, has also donated via ActBlue, writer Alexis Tereszcuk donated twice to the Clinton campaign in 2016 totaling $500, $25 via ActBlue, and $250 to failed Democratic congressional candidate Nick Leibham.
Writer Gita Smith appears to have donated 99 times amounting to $1,839.82 to Democratic campaigns including (via ActBlue), failed Democratic congressional candidate Josh Segall, Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee, and Democratic Senator Doug Jones.
comment image A small portion of Lead Stories’ Gita Smith and her donations to anti-Trump groups
Smith also donated to Swing Left, a hard-left political group formed in reaction to the election of President Trump intent on “defeating Trump.” The Swing Left website asserts:

“2020 is here, and the work defeat Trump and the GOP in November starts NOW.”

Lead Stories’ left-wing bias also goes beyond campaign contributions.
The platform’s Managing Editor Eric Ferkenhoff is a journalist with experience at The New York Times who currently lectures at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Hussman School of Journalism and Media.
He’s implied President Trump is a “white nationalist” while attacking his “decision-making” capabilities on Twitter:

Yep. That’s the kind of decision-making we want in the Oval Office. https://t.co/QmjO1JKHuf

— Eric Ferkenhoff (@EricFerk) February 11, 2016

In addition to two high-ranking Lead Stories’ employees – the outlet’s Editor-in-Chief and Senior Editor – six additional “writers and fact-checkers” have long histories working for left-wing, establishment outlet CNN .
At least half of the staff list CNN as a previous employer.
Editor-In-Chief and co-founder Alan Duke worked at CNN for nearly 30 years as a reporter and editor, and Senior Editor Monte Plott was also a former news editor for CNN digital news for over a decade.
Writers Wayne Drash worked at the outlet for two decades, Chandler Friedan worked there for seven years, Chelsea Carter worked for five years, and Mary Acosta along with Dana Ford are also formerly CNN. Jessica Ravitz , also a fact-checker and writer, used to be a senior writer at CNN Digital and Associate Director at the left-wing Anti-Defamation League (ADL).
The ADL has been accused of altering data to make right-wing violence appear more prevalent and is headed by former Obama White House Special Assistant who has been on progressive megadonor George Soros’s payroll.

166992 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Kevin 2, #1099 of 2011 🔗

Can we get UsForThem to put it up on their website so parents can easily find it and send it to their children’s schools?

Can we send it to people like Desmond Swayne and Philip Davies?

Which of the 24 MPs that voted to repeal the coronavirus act have children? Need to make sure it is sent to them…

166840 JHuntz, replying to JHuntz, 7, #1100 of 2011 🔗

Cineworld gone to the wall. From my own biased world view they seemed to be the strongest chain the UK? Would expect others to follow:-

https://news.sky.com/story/cineworld-to-close-all-cinemas-in-the-uk-and-ireland-this-week-12089500#:~:text=Emily%20Mee&text=Cineworld%20will%20close%20all%20of,released%20in%20cinemas%20next%20month .

166848 ▶▶ mjr, replying to JHuntz, 1, #1101 of 2011 🔗

not sure its gone to the wall,. sounds like they are just closing the cinemas (and obviously laying off staff)

166851 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to mjr, 6, #1102 of 2011 🔗

They’ll have to pay rent and rates with no income. If they’re not at the wall now, surely they soon will be.

166918 ▶▶ Darryl, replying to JHuntz, #1103 of 2011 🔗

Cineworld was a well run business until they got over ambitious and made a huge ill timed largely debt funded acquisition in North America – it has been downhill for the chain since. Really was an act of arrogance from the founders.

166961 ▶▶▶ Yawnyaman, replying to Darryl, 1, #1104 of 2011 🔗

My suspicion is that they are waiting until things improve before arranging a partial liquidation and MBO from the administration.

167012 ▶▶▶▶ Darryl, replying to Yawnyaman, #1105 of 2011 🔗

They will probably divest the North American business and go back to being a UK chain. The only winners will be the investment bankers, lawyers and accountants.

167162 ▶▶▶▶▶ matt, replying to Darryl, #1106 of 2011 🔗

They – like all of the multiplex chains – had so thoroughly thrown themselves into dystopianism that I’m surprised the current situation has changed their business much.

166843 Sue, replying to Sue, 18, #1107 of 2011 🔗

Maybe we need to rebrand the BLM acronyn as “British Liberties Matter” The police may get on their knees at the next protest! 🙂

167013 ▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Sue, 1, #1108 of 2011 🔗

Good idea. Have been saying as well – carry placards that say “BLM” at protests. That should confuse the police and yep, get on their knees.

166844 JohnB, replying to JohnB, 12, #1109 of 2011 🔗

Even if a vaccine is produced and rolled out to the population all this lockdown will still continue. There will still be thousands of COVID-19 deaths each year in the same way as there are still around 20,000 Flu deaths even though there is an annual vaccine for this.

The Government, SAGE and NHS are unwavering in their belief that the only solution is Zero-COVID, so without a change of mindset which they don’t seem to be wanting to do as they are arse covering so that they don’t look culpable, how will this ever end?

166852 ▶▶ godowneasy, replying to JohnB, 4, #1110 of 2011 🔗

It looks more likely that it won’t end. And forget ditching the face masks even with a vaccine. This taken from a DM article a couple of weeks ago:

‘This mask is more guaranteed to protect me against COVID-19 than a vaccine’: CDC director says that face coverings are better than shots because there is more proof they work

  • ‘I might say this face mask is more guaranteed to protect me against covid than when I take a vaccine’ Dr Robert Redfield said before a Senate committee
  • Wearing a face mask has been shown to cut a person’s risks of contracting COVID-19 by up to 65% and coverings reduce the spread of infectious particles
  • It remains unclear how much protection a coronavirus vaccine will offer
  • FDA regulators set the minimum efficacy for a shot they would approve at 50%
  • Some people may not have an immune response to a future vaccine – and there is not yet substantial data on shots because they are not yet in use
  • It comes as a CDC ‘playbook’ said federal agencies plan to distribute a COVID-19 vaccine broadly and for free to Americans by January


166858 ▶▶▶ CGL, replying to godowneasy, 9, #1111 of 2011 🔗

If masks don’t go, I’m afraid I will have to.

166877 ▶▶▶ BeBopRockSteady, replying to godowneasy, 2, #1112 of 2011 🔗

If this goes the way it should and PCR is revealed to be totally unfit for purpose, all of the WHOs credibility will be toast

166897 ▶▶▶▶ IanE, replying to BeBopRockSteady, 5, #1113 of 2011 🔗

Um, ‘the WHOs credibility’???

166946 ▶▶▶ Cheshirecatslave, replying to godowneasy, 1, #1114 of 2011 🔗

Which study is he citing?

166967 ▶▶▶▶ godowneasy, replying to Cheshirecatslave, #1115 of 2011 🔗

None – as usual it’s the “research says” trope.

166988 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to godowneasy, #1116 of 2011 🔗

We need to spread that ‘Crimes against humanity’ video far and wide! Maybe to people with small businesses that have been ruined – they might be willing to watch it now?

167090 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to godowneasy, 2, #1117 of 2011 🔗


166864 ▶▶ OKUK, replying to JohnB, 6, #1118 of 2011 🔗

You’ve described well the corner the government have painted themselves into. But reality will intrude. Eventually states are going to break ranks. Would the UK really stick with Lockdownism if Germany or France or the USA abandoned it? I doubt it.

167057 ▶▶ James, replying to JohnB, 1, #1119 of 2011 🔗

It will end when the people (enough people) say: “No” . Complaining , moaning and ridiculing might make us feel better for a very short time but it will not make a blind bit of difference. They will not stop!

If anyone reading this wants a shot of moral courage please check out Mark Passio. Not for the faint of heart.


166873 mattghg, replying to mattghg, #1120 of 2011 🔗

Can anyone provide good quality links to Ferguson’s atrocious past predictions re: swine flu etc. from the time?

167034 ▶▶▶ mattghg, replying to AnotherSceptic, #1122 of 2011 🔗

So Ferguson is being traduced? That’s what the link seems to end up arguing…

166885 ▶▶ BeBopRockSteady, replying to mattghg, 7, #1123 of 2011 🔗

Sure. It’s a riot

166899 ▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to BeBopRockSteady, 2, #1124 of 2011 🔗

That brings me back to the Norn Iron phrase: I’ll see ye in the Beano

166888 ▶▶ Andy Riley, replying to mattghg, 2, #1125 of 2011 🔗

Search for
“Use and abuse of mathematical models: an illustration from the
2001 foot and mouth disease epidemic in the United Kingdom.”

Kitching, RP, Thrusfield, M & Taylor

Also a critique of the unscientific nature of mathematical modelling in epidemiology.

166919 ▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to Andy Riley, #1126 of 2011 🔗

Reading this now. It’s applicable to today.

166904 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to mattghg, 2, #1127 of 2011 🔗

Plenty of info here: https://www.ukcolumn.org/

Maybe start with the “Slaughtered” video.

166876 Cheezilla, 45, #1128 of 2011 🔗

Copied from a friend on fb. It certainly made me think

Wake up with humanity and take a trip back in time with me… ⁣

It’s 2019 and you are in a store and pass a 30 year old person wearing a mask. ⁣

“That’s odd,” you think. ⁣

Your first thought is probably that that they are either really sick, maybe had chemotherapy or an immunity condition of some kind, and then you may think maybe they’re just paranoid and scared of germs. ⁣

Either way they are an oddity. ⁣

2020: You are in a store and pass a 30 year old person not wearing a mask, now of course you have one on, all snug and tight, your glasses fogging up so you have to keep pulling it down. ⁣

“That’s odd,” you think. ⁣

Then you realize they may be infectious, so you pull your mask up, then it hits you the gall of them to not be wearing a mask when we’re being told we’re in the middle of a pandemic and people are dying. You seethe with anger, “Who do they think they are?” you ask yourself. ⁣

But what you need to do is step back and observe it all in its entirety. ⁣

In less than six months the reality of our entire social system has been inverted to “save” lives: ⁣

•Suicide rate is growing. ⁣
•Domestic abuse growing. ⁣
•Child abuse growing. ⁣
•Unemployment rate growing. ⁣
•Heart disease, strokes and heart attacks growing. ⁣
•Cancers going undiagnosed. ⁣
•Use of opioids, alcohol and psychiatric drugs growing. ⁣
•Many children not in school, social structure entirely dismantled and social development and mental health will be impacted in negative ways. ⁣
•The death toll from the RESPONSE to C•vid is much higher than the actual virus has caused. ⁣

These, these are the things that you should be focusing on, but instead you are in a store shooting bullets with your eyes at someone because they’re not wearing a mask. ⁣

And then you go home and see on social media one of the C•vid leaders or an elected official in public not wearing a mask, and your brain has to start working overtime to create scenarios in your mind on why it’s ok for them to not have a mask on. ⁣

Your brain is tired. ⁣

Because your intuition is telling you something is off. ⁣

But the wine you bought at the store is the perfect antidote for the battle going on within you.

166879 Harry hopkins, replying to Harry hopkins, 24, #1129 of 2011 🔗

I have a ‘Redemption’

I really don’t know whether it’s a sign of age but sometimes when I want to say something I find that instant recall has a slight time delay. It’s as if my brain is in the process of clicking into gear before the right words come out. So, lo and behold, on entering a well known supermarket yesterday and passing a young, seemingly frazzled door person I uttered the words: ‘I have a REDEMPTION’. This was met with a nod and smile as I entered the shop. I laughed at this later on and looked up the various meanings of the word redemption and the one that struck me the most was:

The act of delivery from sin or saving from evil’

Now I don’t know about you but quite by accident, and by a pure lapse of memory, I have struck upon a word that I think I will use more often when entering places that require masks to be worn. Bugger the health reasons, I prefer not to wear a mask because not wearing one delivers me from ‘sin or evil’. To me, not wearing a mask IS a kind of redemption. I don’t want to be unkind to the average person on door patrol but it strikes me that many of them–masked, harassed, and simply doing their job—would just hear the TION part of the word and that would be good enough for them. And if they did challenge me about having a ‘redemption’ I would just say: ‘did I really say that?—just wait ‘till you get to my age!’

This got me thinking about alternative words one can use instead of ‘exemption’ and I can assure you that there are scores if not hundreds of them. And if you think I’m being flippant in the face of seriousness then you are probably right but I’m getting to the stage now whereby the whole situation is becoming so surreal that flippancy and humour is my way of dealing with it.

So here is my initial list of words that could be substituted for ‘I have an exemption’:-

dispensation, exortation, hyphenation, infliction ( a good one that!) disputation, alleviation, altercation, obduration, revocation.

I’m sure you get my drift and I’m sure you can think of many more that would go completely unnoticed by the average door person either because they didn’t hear you properly or because they didn’t know the meaning of the words anyway. The best way to deal with rank stupidity and inane behaviour, even when government sanctioned, is to reply with subtle and intelligent ridicule. This after all, is all that this government deserves.

166884 ▶▶ RickH, replying to Harry hopkins, 5, #1130 of 2011 🔗

… or try (I have) ‘Sanity’ or ‘Intelligence’ or ‘Numeracy and Literacy’ 🙂

166900 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to RickH, #1131 of 2011 🔗

Good ones!

166898 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Harry hopkins, 3, #1132 of 2011 🔗

Harry you have innumerable redeeming features and your ability to encourage levity here is a favourite!

166913 ▶▶ JHuntz, replying to Harry hopkins, 5, #1133 of 2011 🔗

Thanks Harry, you made me laugh something I think we are all dearly in need of these days.

166915 ▶▶ Nigel Sherratt, replying to Harry hopkins, 3, #1134 of 2011 🔗

Won’t you help to sing
These songs of freedom?
‘Cause all I ever have
Redemption songs
Redemption songs

167089 ▶▶ annie, replying to Harry hopkins, 1, #1135 of 2011 🔗

I suffer from chronic mens scepticissima . It’s awful, I’m telling you.

166880 John Galt, replying to John Galt, 8, #1136 of 2011 🔗

I think some of the push back on this issue misses the point. If you’re discussing numbers and false positive rates, then you’ve given them the baton on the way the debate can go. They can always manufacture more numbers with more tests. They cleverly moved the goalposts from deaths to infections so they were able to do that. The lead in to any argument surrounding this issue should always be “this is a mild flu at worst.” It’s undeniable and can’t be argued from a logical or even emotional standpoint.

166889 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to John Galt, 8, #1137 of 2011 🔗

Oh but my postman’s neighbour’s sister’s aunt died of it!
And thousands of people have got long covid!

166895 ▶▶▶ Nessimmersion, replying to Cheezilla, 6, #1138 of 2011 🔗

Its well known the cure for long covid is the withdrawal of wages and pension rights, then you get a miraculous cure in 99% of cases.
The remaining 1% is Yuppie flu.

166927 ▶▶▶▶ Cheshirecatslave, replying to Nessimmersion, 2, #1139 of 2011 🔗

Post viral fatigue is a genuine condition following many viruses not just covid. Sick people should not be left to starve.

166947 ▶▶▶▶▶ Nessimmersion, replying to Cheshirecatslave, #1140 of 2011 🔗

Yes -post viral fatigue AKA yuppie flu.
Where are sick people being left to starve out of interest?

167280 ▶▶▶▶▶ Stringfellow Hawke, replying to Cheshirecatslave, 1, #1141 of 2011 🔗

Yes, someone the other day – may have been talkradio? reeled off a list of the possible side effects she had been made aware of, as part of a flu vax; inc. potential shortness of breath, long term health complications, minor lung scarring – just a coincidence they appeared to be the exact same side effects which matched a tv news segment about long covid…!

166932 ▶▶▶ Two-Six, replying to Cheezilla, 1, #1142 of 2011 🔗

I think I knew her

167229 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Two-Six, #1143 of 2011 🔗


166902 ▶▶ BeBopRockSteady, replying to John Galt, 1, #1144 of 2011 🔗

The FPR issue for me is just a first step in revealing the criminal use of the PCR in general

166923 ▶▶ BJJ, replying to John Galt, #1145 of 2011 🔗

What about the long covid ?

167244 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to BJJ, 1, #1146 of 2011 🔗

It will be genuine.

People who have bad flu attacks can take several weeks to recover.
Glandular fever takes a good year to bounce back from.
A severe attack of shingles can be extremely debilitating for months.

So I don’t doubt it’s genuine, just like any other normal post-viral syndrome – which would get no press attention whatsoever.

Interesting that when the ME pandemic struck in the 1980s, victims were dismissed as suffering from yuppie flu and mocked in the media. As an ME sufferer, I can assure you the symptoms are genuine and extremely debilitating. However, ME is not post-viral fatigue.

166881 AnotherSceptic, replying to AnotherSceptic, 6, #1147 of 2011 🔗

This is what we are up against folks, still the majority brainwashed into believing the “virus” kills you.

The grass in the story said this “ Why do families let teenagers out of site when the danger of the virus is so close to their children?”


Also, poor reporting, should be Sight, not Site.

166890 ▶▶ KBuchanan, replying to AnotherSceptic, 5, #1148 of 2011 🔗

Au contraire I would assume this was aimed at parents of teens who live on building sites, so would not apply to me as I live in a house.

166954 ▶▶▶ Snake Oil Pussy, replying to KBuchanan, 2, #1149 of 2011 🔗

Actually it’s not that long since teenagers were considered to be responsible workers capable of earning their living on building sites.

166999 ▶▶▶ AnotherSceptic, replying to KBuchanan, #1150 of 2011 🔗

Lol. I didn’t think of that Karenannsceptic.

166892 ▶▶ Nessimmersion, replying to AnotherSceptic, 4, #1151 of 2011 🔗

Typical Daily Record, well known for being hard of thinking, zero deaths in Scotland for under 25’s, children don’t suffer from it, are much less likely to spread it and are having ther lives ruined.
We’ve withdrawn all dental care for children and these scum have the temerity to complain about teeenagers behaving like teenagers.

166893 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to AnotherSceptic, 3, #1152 of 2011 🔗

Yes, that bogeyman virus lurks around every corner, just waiting to pounce and stab your kids to death with that spike thing!

166887 Cheezilla, 6, #1153 of 2011 🔗

Just spotted this photo in the Express’ report of the bomb scare yesterday:

comment image ?r=1601646682138

Now is it my imagination, or does that queue of people remind anyone else of those naughty teenagers being harrassed by police for flouting distancing rules in Newcastle last night?

166896 ▶▶ Hubes, replying to Tom Blackburn, 16, #1155 of 2011 🔗

Hancock deserves to go to jail, well they all do but I think I’d enjoy seeing him behind bars the most.

166905 ▶▶▶ Tom Blackburn, replying to Hubes, 13, #1156 of 2011 🔗

Amnesty have Hancock firmly in their sights.

“Tell the Health Secretary to protect people living in Care Homes and ensure this doesn’t happen again”.


166909 ▶▶▶▶ Silke David, replying to Tom Blackburn, 5, #1157 of 2011 🔗

At last. AI has been very quiet the last few months!

167277 ▶▶▶▶▶ Stringfellow Hawke, replying to Silke David, #1159 of 2011 🔗

They got a hammering not that long ago, so have been a bit quiet since I think; I recall a news segment where someone representing A.I. talked about large % of women who were sexually assaulted attempting to enter the US from South America, via Mexico…cue the attacks on how the charity must be full of Trumpian vile racists. this was despite corroborating testimony from a Border patrol agent who said he had seen young women & girls, sometimes just 12 years old, having been given birth control pills because they knew they were likely to be attacked.

166930 ▶▶▶▶ Darryl, replying to Tom Blackburn, 3, #1160 of 2011 🔗

I remember reading that the British establishment were involved with setting up Amnesty so I wouldn’t bet on it writing or doing anything meaningful.

167086 ▶▶▶ annie, replying to Hubes, 3, #1161 of 2011 🔗

Yes, with indefinite solitary confinement, under the conditions his vile minions are even now inflicting on the old and helpless.

166903 ▶▶ Awkward Git, replying to Tom Blackburn, 12, #1162 of 2011 🔗

7 months later MSM finally catching up.

167018 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Tom Blackburn, #1163 of 2011 🔗

But why is Jabba the Hutt interrogating that old guy?

166894 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 4, #1164 of 2011 🔗

Interesting finding from Norfolk.Genome sequencing was very helpful as a Public Health action as excluding nosocomial infection etc
 Large scale sequencing of SARS-CoV-2 genomes from one region allows detailed epidemiology and enables local outbreak management
“Our analysis: identified a sublineage associated with 6 care facilities; found no evidence of reinfection in longitudinal samples; ruled out a nosocomial outbreak; identified 16 lineages in key workers which were not in patients indicating infection control measures were effective; found the D614G spike protein mutation which is linked to increased transmissibility dominates the samples and rapidly confirmed relatedness of cases in an outbreak at a food processing facility. The large-scale genome sequencing of SARS-CoV-2-positive samples has provided valuable additional data for public health epidemiology in the Norfolk region, and will continue to help identify and untangle hidden transmission chains as the pandemic evolves.

166921 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to swedenborg, 2, #1165 of 2011 🔗

Are they really claiming it isn’t a nosocomial infection?

166980 ▶▶▶ swedenborg, replying to Cheezilla, 1, #1166 of 2011 🔗

In certain situations they could see that Health Care Worker(HCW) was infected with another strain than the patients in their care making transmission HCW to patients unlikely in that scenario. That does not preclude nosocomial transmissions in other scenarios.

167073 ▶▶ Kevin 2, replying to swedenborg, #1167 of 2011 🔗

It’s curious that Eco Health Alliance has stayed somewhat below the radar.
They did all the genomic research to produce this designer virus.


They know all about ORF-8 by the way:-


166901 Darryl, replying to Darryl, 8, #1168 of 2011 🔗

The authorities clearly don’t approve of Julian Assange protests either. It looks like it took at least 4 van loads of them to break up a group of less than 30 protestors – who looked as socially distanced as most of the people in the street! London really is starting to have a police state feel to it – at least they didn’t get the Territorial Support Group treatment yesterday. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUUym5b7fC4

166911 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Darryl, 1, #1169 of 2011 🔗

Liable for a fine for making a video?!

166935 ▶▶▶ Darryl, replying to Cheezilla, 1, #1170 of 2011 🔗

Really seemed a complete waste of time and effort arresting the man, I wonder how long they kept him in police custody. Police seem to have unlimited manpower now – never had any time when people I know have reported real crime in the past.

166940 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Darryl, 1, #1171 of 2011 🔗

All those cops round one non-violent guy while ignoring the rest of the (equally non-violent) crowd!

166906 justmeabc, replying to justmeabc, 6, #1172 of 2011 🔗

So the BBC follows the Huff Post down the same, no but yes but no but, blind alley and fail to reach the logical conclusion of their argument, proving that both are more interested in discrediting the opposing view than getting to the truth. This may be OK from a Huff political journalist but not the “impartial” national broadcaster’s “reality checkers”.

If you accept the basis of their argument, i.e. that the group of people being tested isn’t a random selection of the population, then the conclusion that any statistician would immediately draw is that “cases” – a bare count of positive tests from a daily succession of non-random samples of varying sizes – is the wrong measure to be using to judge what is happening in the wider population.

166929 ▶▶ guy153, replying to justmeabc, 8, #1173 of 2011 🔗

It’s quite a common strategy. You do a headline like “Sceptic Myths Debunked” and then spectacularly fail to actually debunk them on the basis that few people will bother to read or understand the actual story but will just leave with the impression “oh that old canard that was debunked wasn’t it, old news, why are you still going on about that?”.

Some of the more devastating mistakes in climate alarmist theory are in this category.

I think Cummings may even have written about this in his blog. The way to propagandize people is with a steady drip feed over a long period of time. If you repeat a lie often enough people get bored of thinking about it or engaging with it and just start accepting it.

166938 ▶▶▶ Darryl, replying to guy153, 6, #1174 of 2011 🔗

Yes, you are correct it is a classic propaganda / misinformation tactic. Few readers get past the headline and most certainly won’t read an article of any significant length.

166987 ▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to justmeabc, 2, #1175 of 2011 🔗

What they’re really saying is that self-diagnosis by the ‘patient’ masks the crappiness of a crappy test. Apparently self-diagnosis can produce a 5:1 swing in concentration of positives (that’s just a ‘projection’ not a ‘prediction’, mind), thus discrediting the strategy of testing ordinary members of the public who, surely, cannot in all seriousness be relied upon to diagnose themselves!

166908 Cheezilla, replying to Cheezilla, 8, #1176 of 2011 🔗

Someone ought to tell Sir Kneelalot that you can’t control a virus.
It renders his criticism ridiculous!

166910 ▶▶ Tom Blackburn, replying to Cheezilla, 3, #1177 of 2011 🔗

He has been less than pathetic. “We ask the government….” “The government should do…” “We implore the government…”


166916 petgor, replying to petgor, 9, #1178 of 2011 🔗

This is the response that I received from the Department of Health to my FoI request on the value of masks, I have left out the BS, though what is left still amounts to BS:

“The evidence on the effectiveness of face coverings in preventing the spread of COVID-19 in community settings is limited. However, there is some research to suggest that a face covering could reduce the spread of infection if worn by an infected person by reducing the spread of droplets. Due to the wide variability in the evidence of what constitutes a face covering, strong evidence of effectiveness in the community setting is difficult to obtain.

In June, PHE conducted a rapid evidence review on the efficacy of different types of face coverings designed for use in community settings, and the effectiveness of face coverings to reduce the spread of COVID-19 in the community. The review found evidence that mask wearing in the community may contribute to reducing the spread of COVID-19 and laboratory studies found that materials such as cotton and polyester may block droplets with a filtering efficiency similar to medical masks when folded in two or three layers.”

166926 ▶▶ BTLnewbie, replying to petgor, 10, #1179 of 2011 🔗

“Some research to suggest” … “may contribute “.
Hardly language justifying such a radical and dramatic health intervention.
The same sort of language will doubtless be used to mandate compulsory vaccination.

166936 ▶▶ Tenchy, replying to petgor, 7, #1180 of 2011 🔗

What’s needed is evidence that face nappies are harmful – and then to get the MSM on side (difficult). OffGuardian did a piece on the dangers to pregnant women, but unsurprisingly I didn’t see it anywhere in the MSM.

166955 ▶▶ justmeabc, replying to petgor, 3, #1181 of 2011 🔗

The PHE rapid evidence review used words like “weak” and “limited” to describe the evidence that it found. Funny that they forgot to mention those words in their reply to you! 🤔

166991 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to petgor, 1, #1182 of 2011 🔗

Maybe write back to them, point out what’s happening in Manchester and ask them how well it’s working so far.

167238 ▶▶▶ BeBopRockSteady, replying to Cheezilla, #1183 of 2011 🔗

Or if there are any active studies to assess it. Given they haven’t a clue. How are they tracking the success of such a draconian measure?

167022 ▶▶ justmeabc, replying to petgor, 3, #1184 of 2011 🔗

These are the four “key messages” from the PHE rapid evidence review (with my underlining – I used it in a letter to my MP)

·        “28 studies were identified, but none of them provided high level evidence and 15 were non-peer-reviewed preprints (search up to 5 June 2020). The evidence was mainly theoretical (based on modelling or laboratory studies) and epidemiological ( highly subject to confounders ).
·        There is weak evidence from epidemiological and modelling studies that mask wearing in the community may contribute to reducing the spread of COVID-19 and that early intervention may result in a lower peak infection rate.
·        Evidence from modelling studies suggests that beneficial effects of wearing masks may be increased when combined with other non-pharmaceutical interventions, such as hand washing and social distancing.
· Limited and weak evidence from laboratory studies suggests that materials such as cotton and polyester might block droplets with a filtering efficiency similar to medical masks when folded in 2 or 3 layers.”

Following the best scientific evidence anybody?

167239 ▶▶▶ BeBopRockSteady, replying to justmeabc, #1185 of 2011 🔗

Non science

167048 ▶▶ RickH, replying to petgor, 3, #1186 of 2011 🔗

Note the double-speak ‘could’ and ‘may’ – i.e. an unsubstantiated hypothesis.

Scientific method (‘follow the science’) rejects such hypotheses in favour of its null.

It’s not difficult – mask wearing is not supported scientifically.

167080 ▶▶ annie, replying to petgor, 2, #1187 of 2011 🔗

Breathe through three layers of polyester.
If you can.

167222 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to annie, 1, #1188 of 2011 🔗

Three damp layers!

166920 mjr, replying to mjr, 20, #1189 of 2011 🔗

having seen Trump on the news …… telling us he is ok and looking pale – but more normal that his usual orange – there are three possible scenarios

  1. the whole thing is a lie.. (but then quite difficult to maintain this)
  2. he tested positive but it is a false positive and he has a cold (so showing that the whole case/test thing is unreliable)
  3. he actually had covid. (so showing that even for an overweight 74 year old, covid is not serious as with a little treatment he expects to be back at work in a couple of days and he has not been very ill)

Sort of disproves the “we are all going to die from this killer pandemic” meme

166925 ▶▶ DRW, replying to mjr, 2, #1190 of 2011 🔗

But asymptomatic organ damage and long covid!

166934 ▶▶▶ mjr, replying to DRW, 7, #1191 of 2011 🔗

yes – they will find some scary spin on it … he might even die in the next 25 years

166953 ▶▶▶▶ DRW, replying to mjr, 7, #1192 of 2011 🔗

FACT: Anyone who gets covid eventually dies!

166976 ▶▶▶▶ Barney McGrew, replying to mjr, 2, #1193 of 2011 🔗

Still a Covid death to PHE.

166984 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to mjr, -1, #1194 of 2011 🔗

It’s been pointed out on SM that Trump dressed identically on his previous visit to that hospital and that that visit may have been to film the footage now being used..

166924 Hester, replying to Hester, 14, #1195 of 2011 🔗

Today I saw the most depressing and disheartening thing of this whole sorry episode. I hope Toby sees this and puts it in the main piece. It is time the mask madness stopped.
I move between the uk and italy I have an apartment in Lucca italy. The Italians seemed to be more pragmatic and sensible than the uk. However I have over the past months of revisiting seen a change in that masks are worn virtually all the time even in the wide open outdoors , I went to the beach today and I and my husband and a few others were the only ones not wearing masks. This includes children regardless of age. However the worst was in Lucca
A father was with his 2 children one a baby no more than 1 year carried in his arms
The other a boy of around 4 both masked in the open air.a baby .The Italians have been told by their government that masks stop the spread of Covid. The Italians have been terrified and believe all they are told even now it seems to the point of making babies.
I wonder will that child ever feel the fresh air on its face? Or is this the new normal how cruel we are becoming.

166964 ▶▶ Silke David, replying to Hester, 5, #1196 of 2011 🔗

Do these parents really not realise how much damage they can cause to children by depriving them of oxygen?
They should be reported for child abuse.
I saw a video of a doctor today (in german) who made it quite clear, how much bad air we re-breathe and how childrens’ bodies cannot compensate for the lack of oxygen. He stated a newborn could die within 10 minutes.

166931 Tenchy, replying to Tenchy, 4, #1197 of 2011 🔗

From The Telegraph live feed:

Manchester local lockdown: Infection rate shows 15-fold increase since new measures

The Covid infection rate in Manchester has risen more than 15-fold since the local lockdown has been introduced, writes Laura Donnelly.

It comes as Andy Burnham warns the Government is in danger of “losing” the public in the North, and that there was a growing “North-South divide”.

The latest statistics show Manchester’s rate at now 335.9 cases per 100,000 – one of the worst in the country, having surpassed 200 per 100,000 in recent days.

Any thoughts? Targeted testing of students, maybe?

166939 ▶▶ mjr, replying to Tenchy, 9, #1198 of 2011 🔗

so maybe this is due to a 15 fold(or greater) rise in the number of tests carried out ,,, aren’t statistics wonderful!

166941 ▶▶ Tom Blackburn, replying to Tenchy, #1199 of 2011 🔗

“In danger of “losing” the public in the North”


166942 ▶▶ Darryl, replying to Tenchy, 3, #1200 of 2011 🔗

I would suspect they are targeting poor areas and giving financial incentives to those most likely to be infected to get tested. Students are certainly a possibility.

166949 ▶▶ Tee Ell, replying to Tenchy, 2, #1201 of 2011 🔗

Meaningless without knowing how many tests have been done and how many are false positives, how many were tested twice, how many were symptomatic etc. 3.3 per 1000 and it’s positive PCR not infections. They should be reporting the change in positives as a proportion of tests done if they had any interest in reality.

If they actually test 100,000 people and real incidence is 1%, they could expect 710 – 800 real positives and ~990 false positives (using fairly conservative estimates for sensitivity and specificity).

166951 ▶▶ DavidC, replying to Tenchy, 3, #1202 of 2011 🔗

How many hospital admissions? How many deaths? Not many I’ll wager.


166977 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to DavidC, 1, #1203 of 2011 🔗


166960 ▶▶ Howie59, replying to Tenchy, 3, #1204 of 2011 🔗

Thoughts? A flawed test and a virtue signalling public more than willing to volunteer themselves. Little if any social distancing now due to a misguided faith in mouth muzzles.

Gawd knows anymore. Too many variables. Too many lies. Long and short of it is you can control (most) people but you can’t control a virus.

166979 ▶▶ DRW, replying to Tenchy, 2, #1205 of 2011 🔗

Plus some schools might be mandating tests for every pupil with a cold, and we all know how reliable PCRs are.

167020 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to DRW, #1206 of 2011 🔗

Great… so they will be gathering the DNA of all children then..

166986 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Tenchy, 1, #1207 of 2011 🔗

Burnham demanded lockdown and testing. What’s he hoping to achieve now?
We’re certainly starting to lose it in the North!

167337 ▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Cheezilla, #1208 of 2011 🔗

ID cards ? 🙂

167054 ▶▶ RickH, replying to Tenchy, 2, #1209 of 2011 🔗

Simple : a casedemic.

167148 ▶▶ Andy C, replying to Tenchy, 2, #1210 of 2011 🔗

It’s almost as if lockdowns don’t work and the measures put in place to control the virus actually exacerbate it.

166933 swedenborg, replying to swedenborg, 3, #1211 of 2011 🔗


The COVID-19 pandemic as experienced by the individual

“The ongoing COVID-19 pandemic has progressed with varying degrees of intensity in individual countries, suggesting it is important to analyse factors that vary between them. We study measures of ‘population-weighted density’, which capture density as perceived by a randomly chosen individual. These measures of population density can significantly explain variation in the initial rate of spread of COVID-19 between countries within Europe. However, such measures do not explain differences on a global scale, particularly when considering countries in East Asia, or looking later into the epidemics. Therefore, to control for country-level differences in response to COVID-19 we consider the cross-cultural measure of individualism proposed by Hofstede.”

“Considering Germany’s PWD, it may be unnecessary to postulate the existence of an ‘immunological dark matter’ to explain the current size of its epidemic [33].”

They draw the conclusion that collective response as in East Asia can explain a better outcome even in densely populated areas. And they dismiss Karl Friston’s dark matter

Perhaps not surprising that the study has been sponsored by Bill and Melinda Gates foundation

166981 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to swedenborg, #1212 of 2011 🔗

Dark matter – or healthy imune system – must be dismissed if it threatens your profits!
The oriental explanation is that they already have some herd immunity because of previous sars epidemics.

166943 mhcp, replying to mhcp, 4, #1213 of 2011 🔗

From Use and abuse of mathematical models: An illustration from the 2001 foot and mouth disease epidemic in the United Kingdom
(R.P. Kitching, M.V. Thrusfield & N.M. Taylor)

Referenced below (thanks Andy Riley).

In the conclusions:

“Modelling should only be countenanced if veterinarians and scientists agree that the design of the model and the information used to generate its results are correct (and plausible, from the known biology of the disease). Otherwise, models: ‘become exercises in mathematical sophistry’ (96). Moreover, the rift between the models and the practical reality of implementation may be so huge as to make the models irrelevant (5).

“Significantly, Michael Osterholm, Director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy, University of Minnesota, has commented: ‘In 30 years in public health, I’ve never seen any statistical modelling that had any impact on public health’ (26).”

Well Michael, you may see it now (if you’re still about)

166952 ▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to mhcp, 1, #1214 of 2011 🔗

I think the first paragraph is very sensible. I’m not able to comment on the second, of course. However, you failed to quote the next one

Hypothetical scenarios can then be modelled to develop insights into the relative merits of different strategies in different situations.

166982 ▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to Richard Pinch, #1215 of 2011 🔗

My point was that the CDC hadn’t seen a model up to that point that affected public health. The paper also talks about hypothetical scenarios being tested and validated. As well as being predicated on the quality of the inputs.

No surprises there.

166996 ▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to mhcp, #1216 of 2011 🔗

Just a minor point: the CDC is a US federal agency. Dr Osterholm is director of a research institute at a university.

But you might like to know that he also said

In 33 years in epidemiology, I have performed many thousands of statistical calculations along with my colleagues. Some of these calculations have had important public health impact, particularly when they involved disease outbreaks.

167028 ▶▶▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to Richard Pinch, #1217 of 2011 🔗

As per swedenborg he looks to be more involved now. When he said this is was 2006. So on reflection it’s no surprise. Just interesting that at the time he made that statement.

167076 ▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to Richard Pinch, 1, #1218 of 2011 🔗

‘important impact’? Was it a good one or a bad one?

167211 ▶▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Richard Pinch, #1219 of 2011 🔗

Well there’s no disputing that Ferguson’s satistical calculations have had important public health impact, particularly when they involved disease outbreaks.

167039 ▶▶▶ mhcp, replying to Richard Pinch, 2, #1220 of 2011 🔗

Actually the full bit is:

“Hypothetical scenarios can then be modelled to develop
insights into the relative merits of different strategies in
different situations. In this way, decision-makers can be
provided with a priori supporting guidelines, used in
conjunction with veterinary wisdom and experience – not
as a substitute for them.

“The use of models during epidemics should be restricted to
monitoring the epidemic and aiding short-term fine
adjustments to strategies.”

And on it goes about not using it as the basis on decisions.

166990 ▶▶ swedenborg, replying to mhcp, 2, #1221 of 2011 🔗

Unfortunately Michael Osterholm is one of the main person in Project Fear and wants an immediate new lockdown in the whole of US despite saying the phrase above.Perhaps hit by the corona lockdown virus from Wuhan?

166957 ▶▶ Major Panic, replying to Tom Blackburn, 3, #1223 of 2011 🔗

These ‘nice but dim’ types have no concept of reality

166958 ▶▶ Paul, replying to Tom Blackburn, 2, #1224 of 2011 🔗

That shows exactly the mindset we are up against.

166971 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Tom Blackburn, 2, #1225 of 2011 🔗

Did we get locked down for the Olympics? I seem to have missed that somehow.

166985 ▶▶▶ JHuntz, replying to Cheezilla, 3, #1226 of 2011 🔗

Were we proud of the Olympics. I seemed to have missed that aswell???

167019 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to JHuntz, #1227 of 2011 🔗

I note the Tokyo Olympics haven’t been mentioned for ages – weren’t they going to be held next year instead?

167001 ▶▶ Draper233, replying to Tom Blackburn, 3, #1228 of 2011 🔗

Dear oh dear. These fuckwits still think it’s a game between Labour v Tory.

Ironically, this was – possibly still is – a massive opportunity for Labour to reconnect with their core vote (because corona measures are undoubtedly hitting the poorest the hardest, as per Middlesbrough etc.) but so far they’ve decided party politics trumps the devastation being caused. Pathetic.

167137 ▶▶▶ Jonathan Palmer, replying to Draper233, 1, #1229 of 2011 🔗

Their core vote is public sector workers,Middle class liberals and immigrants.They abandoned the white working class years ago it’s just that the northern working class finally realised it

167208 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Draper233, #1230 of 2011 🔗

Worse than pathetic!
Proves that it wasn’t just Corbyn that made the party unelectable last December.

166962 Ned of the Hills, replying to Ned of the Hills, 1, #1231 of 2011 🔗

Something funny is going on on the Irish Republic’s Covid pages. I’m getting two conflicting statements:-

The latest news as of 6.15pm on Saturday 3 October
364 cases confirmed:

  • the Health Protection Surveillance Centre (HPSC) has not been informed of any additional deaths among people with COVID-19 in Ireland over the last 24 hours

The latest news as of 6.15pm on Saturday 3 October10 deaths and 613 cases confirmed:

  • the Health Protection Surveillance Centre (HPSC) has been informed of 10 additional deaths among people with COVID-19 in Ireland (it is important to note that 8 of the 10 deaths reported today occurred prior to September 2020)

The latter statement first appeared yesterday (I can still find it) the first statement comes up when I look for today’s figures. That could be it! – they’ve forgotten to alter the time and date! I think that must be it. Sorry to bother you all! ( As we know bigger mistakes with statistics are being made in Blighty!)

166973 ▶▶ godowneasy, replying to Ned of the Hills, 1, #1232 of 2011 🔗

There is no particular fraud here – they just don’t know what f—–g day it is!

166963 Snake Oil Pussy, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, 10, #1233 of 2011 🔗

It seems the government has “stashes” of positive tests waiting to be released into the official statistics at will.


Good news – proves the fatality rate is even lower
Bad news – pushes the number of “cases” uncomfortably close to the “50k by mid October” curve.

166965 ▶▶ DRW, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, 2, #1234 of 2011 🔗

Saving the graph to the moon by date reported

166970 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, 2, #1235 of 2011 🔗

But are the hospitalisations as predicted as well, or not?

And are these stashes of positive tests real, or has the government faked them in order to justify the lockdown they are desperate to impose within the next week or so? We’ve all heard of people dipping tests in water and the like, and them coming back positive..

166975 ▶▶ godowneasy, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, #1236 of 2011 🔗

So, how does Pesto actually know this?

167017 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to godowneasy, 1, #1237 of 2011 🔗

Well if I remember rightly he leaked the rule of 6…

166978 ▶▶ Tom Blackburn, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, #1238 of 2011 🔗

Bit divisive language by Pesto.

166997 ▶▶ tonys, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, 16, #1239 of 2011 🔗

‘Cases’ at fifty thousand or five thousand do not justify the lockdowns, nothing about this epidemic does, either now or six months ago, The govt can pick any number they like nothing justifies forced terrorising of a whole population, it is criminal and we must treat them all as criminals.

167004 ▶▶ Youth_Unheard, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, 5, #1240 of 2011 🔗

Well they predicted 200 deaths per day by then, which would be a 0.4% CFR with their numbers, and we are entering winter so likely will be in that ballpark.
Yet for some reason millions cannot get into perspective that this is normal and not going to overwhelm the NHS or cause any harm whatsoever to society. What will is the continued overreaction. I am getting so sick of knowing this while at the same time watching the government steam roll ahead, while the public and media mood shifts as quickly as turning a tanker around! Exasperating!

167062 ▶▶▶ Draper233, replying to Youth_Unheard, 7, #1241 of 2011 🔗

Unfortunately I was talking to a Uni student recently and when I told her about flu deaths she replied, “But surely nobody ever dies from flu”. That’s what we’re up against.

Plus, all this “if it saves one life” bollocks, when the NHS make decisions day in, day out, about who gets treatment or not based on cost vs quality life years.

There is shocking ignorance out there.

167152 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Draper233, 2, #1242 of 2011 🔗

Maybe we should send all these locked-up uni students a link to the Crimes against Humanity video?
These are intelligent youth and it’s their future that is at stake..

167067 ▶▶ stefarm, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, 6, #1243 of 2011 🔗

Fuck sake, people’s lives being ruined and they are keeping +cases in their back pocket to bend us over again!!!!!! And again!!!! And again!!!!

Fucking criminal

167261 ▶▶ BJJ, replying to Snake Oil Pussy, #1244 of 2011 🔗

Does not matter how many cases. There need to be fatalities. Is that a moral hazard if your political career benefits from fatalies?

166974 Bart Simpson, replying to Bart Simpson, 24, #1245 of 2011 🔗

Have just finished watching the Crimes against Humanity video – very educational and excellent summary of what has happened so far as well as the inconsistencies that plague the current narrative which have been time and again challenged but the sad thing is many in the establishment still refuse to engage with the points raised by people like Levitt, Cahill, Gupta, Heneghan, Yeadon, et al. This video should be circulated more widely if only to wake up the lockdownistas.

I also re-read Poppy’s comment and I agree with her that this current crisis has exposed a lot of people to be cruel and selfish. I’ve always had a much more cynical view of humanity but the penny completely dropped for me since 2016. Four years later, not much has changed in my opinion, if anything its become far worse. Its like the picture of Dorian Gray, you see more and more of the ugliness within come to the fore.

166994 ▶▶ Major Panic, replying to Bart Simpson, 13, #1246 of 2011 🔗

Someone’s going to have to persuade a court that the PCR test is fit for purpose, against all the evidence.

This is going to get messy

167006 ▶▶▶ Major Panic, replying to Major Panic, 10, #1247 of 2011 🔗

If a court rules the PCR test is not fit for purpose then covid deaths are no longer covid deaths as there were no autopsies

The testing casedemic would no longer exist

167009 ▶▶▶▶ Major Panic, replying to Major Panic, 4, #1248 of 2011 🔗

The implications are fcukin massive

167016 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Major Panic, 2, #1249 of 2011 🔗

Will the case reach court before vaccines are forced on at least some parts of the UK though?

167156 ▶▶▶▶ Major Panic, replying to Carrie, 1, #1250 of 2011 🔗

Doesn’t matter, the jab won’t ubdo all the harm or protect the guilty

167170 ▶▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Major Panic, #1251 of 2011 🔗

Why not?

167173 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Major Panic, replying to Carrie, 1, #1252 of 2011 🔗

Whether someone has Vax or not, I won’t, will not turn the clock back, the lockdowns will be baseless and consequence still real

Where there’s blame there’s a claim

167180 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Major Panic, 1, #1253 of 2011 🔗

I think you edited your comment at the same time I wrote my last one – your comment originally just said ‘doesn’t matter’..
I think we are on the same page anyway 🙂

167315 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Major Panic, replying to Carrie, #1254 of 2011 🔗


167023 ▶▶▶ Bart Simpson, replying to Major Panic, 2, #1255 of 2011 🔗

Exactly. Because if they do that, justification for the test falling down under under close scrutiny.

167026 ▶▶▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to Bart Simpson, 2, #1256 of 2011 🔗

They are moving very quickly with that vax!

167041 ▶▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Country Mumkin, 2, #1257 of 2011 🔗

Maybe they know about the court case referenced in Crimes against Humanity…

167065 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to Carrie, 1, #1258 of 2011 🔗

I’m sure they must. And the 3 kids who died last week from mask wearing. They are pedalling fast…

167049 ▶▶▶▶▶ DRW, replying to Country Mumkin, 2, #1259 of 2011 🔗

And the courts very slowly…

167072 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to DRW, 2, #1260 of 2011 🔗

And planning to ban protests, so they don’t want Schoning around!

167151 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to DRW, 1, #1261 of 2011 🔗

Will they get a court date quite quickly in the USA, in a state that is not locked down, I wonder?

167032 ▶▶ godowneasy, replying to Bart Simpson, 7, #1262 of 2011 🔗

If there is a class action then great. But have we got that long to wait? This needs to stop now, not in a year or two.

166989 Nic, replying to Nic, 37, #1263 of 2011 🔗

Trump out of hospital tomorrow ! If an overweight , unfit 74 year old can beat corona any one can , brilliant news

167007 ▶▶ DRW, replying to Nic, 4, #1264 of 2011 🔗

Zealots will just say he faked it.

167046 ▶▶▶ Nic, replying to DRW, 3, #1265 of 2011 🔗

Ye they already are.

167149 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Nic, 1, #1266 of 2011 🔗

Yes, you should see people on SM poring over the excif data from the most recent photos and analysing reflections!

167289 ▶▶▶▶▶ ChrisW, replying to Carrie, 1, #1267 of 2011 🔗

And they call us conspiracy theorists!

167198 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to DRW, #1268 of 2011 🔗

Like DePiffle faked his!

167063 ▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Nic, 7, #1269 of 2011 🔗

Both Sir Christopher Meyer and Nigel Farage on Sky’s Sophy Ridge programme this morning said he will use this to his advantage. Hope so!

166998 Tom Blackburn, replying to Tom Blackburn, 8, #1270 of 2011 🔗

Daily Mail: Health Secretary Matt Hancock confirms armed forces will be involved in distributing Covid vaccine.

167003 ▶▶ AnotherSceptic, replying to Tom Blackburn, 41, #1271 of 2011 🔗

What a dirty slimy cunt he is.

167005 ▶▶▶ leggy, replying to AnotherSceptic, 5, #1272 of 2011 🔗

Amen to that

167037 ▶▶▶ Tom Blackburn, replying to AnotherSceptic, 1, #1274 of 2011 🔗

He is a wrong un

167043 ▶▶▶ Jaguarpig, replying to AnotherSceptic, 2, #1275 of 2011 🔗

Death to him

167061 ▶▶▶ RickH, replying to AnotherSceptic, 2, #1276 of 2011 🔗

You flatter him

167014 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Tom Blackburn, 12, #1277 of 2011 🔗

In all seriousness, if I had children, I would be keeping them off school for the foreseeable future and re-locating to a different part of the country. I would not put it past the armed forces to do the vaccinating in schools with no prior warning, because they must know people will keep kids off if there is advance notice given.

The coronavirus act allows forced vaccination and according to WHO consent is assumed if the children are in school. If your children are absent, the army might well turn up at your home. So best not to be there..

167115 ▶▶▶ Lisa from Toronto, replying to Carrie, 5, #1278 of 2011 🔗

I was on a call with the constitutional lawyer who is suing our governments over the Covid measures and he is preparing a template for parents to distribute to their children’s teachers, school principals, and school boards telling them that if their children are tested for Covid or vaccinated without express consent they will be held both criminally and civilly liable. While we don’t have many protections in Canada, we actually do have protections with respect to bodily autonomy. It is considered assault to force a medical intervention on anyone without their express consent. So, while I don’t believe our government will literally force us to be vaccinated, I have no doubt they will try to make life miserable for us if we don’t. If the UK has similar protections, and Covid testing and/or vaccination at schools becomes a reality, I’d suggest taking proactive measures that will put the schools on notice.

167141 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Lisa from Toronto, 4, #1279 of 2011 🔗

The coronavirus act allows for the forceable removal of people from their homes and treatment – doesn’t say vaccines, but the government have pretty much said they will make it mandatory if the take-up is not there… so one way or another it looks like they intend to force it on people..

Problem is, once they have done it, there is no way of undoing any harm done..

167015 ▶▶ DRW, replying to Tom Blackburn, 5, #1280 of 2011 🔗

Fucking hell.

167193 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to DRW, 1, #1281 of 2011 🔗

Sums it up!

167047 ▶▶ godowneasy, replying to Tom Blackburn, #1282 of 2011 🔗

Time to dig that bunker now if you have the chance.

167123 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Tom Blackburn, 2, #1283 of 2011 🔗

Mr Hancock also told the conference that the NHS Covid-19 app had now been downloaded 15 million times.
‘It’s gone off the shelf like hotcakes, like digital hotcakes,’ he said.

Weren’t there 14 million downloads in the first couple of days? That leaves 1 million over the last 8 days. Not exactly flying off the shelves then!

I’m worried about the goal to vaccinate all adults and wonder what the new “bumpy” catchphrase has in store for us.

167146 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Cheezilla, 1, #1284 of 2011 🔗

I’m hoping that the students have not been locked in so that they cannot escape being vaccinated????

167185 ▶▶▶ Ovis, replying to Cheezilla, 1, #1285 of 2011 🔗

NHS staff generally not downloading, so I hear.

167227 ▶▶▶ BeBopRockSteady, replying to Cheezilla, #1286 of 2011 🔗

Well here’s your early vision for the advertising. The Vaccine Rap.

The lady at the start is the number 1 vaccine advocate in Ireland, professor of Trinity College.


I warn you, its propaganda of the highest order

167272 ▶▶▶ Jay Berger, replying to Cheezilla, #1287 of 2011 🔗

14 million in Germany on day 1.
16 million 2 months later.
And deemed useless officially by then.

167132 ▶▶ AN other lockdown sceptic, replying to Tom Blackburn, 5, #1288 of 2011 🔗

The comments are a joy. I think/hope forced vaccination will wake up a lot of silent sceptics.

167143 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to AN other lockdown sceptic, 4, #1289 of 2011 🔗

Even pro-vaccine people must be worried about safety after so little testing time – no way to know of long-term damage.

The only reason the government are hurrying is to pre-empt any legal action..

167220 ▶▶▶▶ JohnB, replying to Carrie, 3, #1290 of 2011 🔗

People I know who are pro-COVID vaccine just want the vaccine as they believe everything will go back to normal if they have it. How very wrong they are, these restrictions are here to stay, vaccine or no vaccine.

167011 Tenchy, replying to Tenchy, 2, #1291 of 2011 🔗
167031 ▶▶ Mr Dee, replying to Tenchy, 6, #1292 of 2011 🔗

No mention of Level 0, I notice…

167050 ▶▶▶ godowneasy, replying to Mr Dee, 3, #1294 of 2011 🔗

Same in Ireland – overall message is – There’s no way out.

167058 ▶▶ RickH, replying to Tenchy, 5, #1295 of 2011 🔗

… to which the only sane response is ‘f.’+ ‘Off’.

167059 ▶▶ stefarm, replying to Tenchy, 6, #1296 of 2011 🔗

And all the mask wearing, hand sanitising track and tracing plebs think it will be over soon. Deluded idiots.

167074 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Tenchy, 2, #1297 of 2011 🔗

A leak via the Grad is usually either testing the water for our response, or softening us up ready for implementation.

Level three looks pretty much like current local mockdown except for the addition of the benighted hospitality sector.

167096 ▶▶ Recusant, replying to Tenchy, 7, #1298 of 2011 🔗

The good news is that people won’t accept this crap. The bad news is that they will only stop accepting this crap when we run out of money.

167105 ▶▶▶ DRW, replying to Recusant, 2, #1299 of 2011 🔗

Most have accepted all of it so far though.

167110 ▶▶▶▶ Recusant, replying to DRW, 5, #1300 of 2011 🔗

That’s because most people haven’t had to choose between accepting this crap and being unemployed. But that choice is very nearly upon us, and when it is the tide will turn. It would have been nice if people could have seen it coming sooner, but it is what it is.

167120 ▶▶▶▶▶ DRW, replying to Recusant, 2, #1301 of 2011 🔗

It’s if they buy the zealot argument that “the recession would have happened anyway, Sweden has one too.” MSM always describes economic bad news to “the pandemic” as opposed to “lockdowns/masks/antisocial distancing”.

167150 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Recusant, replying to DRW, 9, #1302 of 2011 🔗

Sweden has a recession. We are about to have a cataclysm. By February people will be begging for a recession.

167187 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ DRW, replying to Recusant, #1303 of 2011 🔗

I guess eventually people must just stop caring why and how.
But it’s how bad it’ll have to get to wake them up.

167257 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Jonathan Palmer, replying to Recusant, 1, #1304 of 2011 🔗

I can’t understand the silence from people who should know better.
The economy is about to implode and all there is silence

167269 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Jay Berger, replying to DRW, #1305 of 2011 🔗

If everyone had done like Sweden, no one would have had a recession, government debt explosion and upcoming currency implosions.
And millions of people killed and still going to be killed solely by lockdowns as collateral damage would still be alive.

167108 ▶▶▶ Mabel Cow, replying to Recusant, 6, #1306 of 2011 🔗

Which unfortunately will be never, as the Bank of England will continue monetizing the government’s debt until London is Harare-on-Thames and the public are using wheelbarrows of cash to buy their replacement masks.

167119 ▶▶ Jonathan Palmer, replying to Tenchy, 2, #1307 of 2011 🔗

This is what they have been doing from the start.Put out measures,gauge the response.Then decide whether to proceed.SPI B

167038 Cheezilla, replying to Cheezilla, 1, #1308 of 2011 🔗

Socially distanced funeral. Inhumane!
https://www.facebook.com/MKCommuni …/videos/772561520233280

167071 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Cheezilla, 7, #1309 of 2011 🔗

Sorry link doesn’t work.

Basically it showed people moving their miles-apart chairs to be close to the bereft spouse, only to have an official come in, give them a bollocking and demand they move their chairs away again. This was while the service was in full swing.

We can’t live in a world like that!

167083 ▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Cheezilla, 3, #1310 of 2011 🔗

Generally, the sort of terrorism originating in government – with this sort of stuff, mask wearing, new ‘levels’ and vaccines – makes the quotidian sort practised by ordinary fanatics, pretty tame.

167040 reason, replying to reason, 6, #1311 of 2011 🔗

The figures are late again tonight, having trouble adding up once more?.

167221 ▶▶ BeBopRockSteady, replying to reason, #1312 of 2011 🔗

Seems so. A load of cases over the last two weeks not included. Fell down the back of the drinks cabinet

167042 JYC, replying to JYC, 12, #1313 of 2011 🔗

I’m on a small ferry across the River Clyde this afternoon, about a fifteen minute journey. As it’s a bright afternoon, there are a few of us out on the car deck enjoying the fresh air and sunshine. One other adult and myself are not wearing masks. IN THE OPEN AIR. One man was even on his phone with a mask on. What has this country come to?

167051 ▶▶ Ned of the Hills, replying to JYC, 8, #1314 of 2011 🔗

I can’t understand this either. I see it everyday on the open top double decker I travel on. I’ll pass another open top going the opposite way and they’ll be one chap sat on his own wearing a mask. It is as though they can’t think for themselves.

167056 ▶▶ David McCluskey, replying to JYC, 6, #1315 of 2011 🔗

I live by the coast and each Sunday the lifeboat crew (about 6 of them) set off in the rescue-boat for training round the bay. They all had face nappies!!! What an utterly spineless bunch to put up with it.

I am 69 years old and although I’ve had my share of colds and real flu (twice), I’m certain I never caught any of them outside!

167145 ▶▶▶ Nessimmersion, replying to David McCluskey, 2, #1316 of 2011 🔗

I have printed out and laminated a bunch of the pictures below for posting up outside
No idea if it helps but every little grain of doubt:

167451 ▶▶▶▶ Ned of the Hills, replying to Nessimmersion, 1, #1317 of 2011 🔗

A good idea – it could become my ‘leaving card’ when turned away from pubs.

167217 ▶▶ BeBopRockSteady, replying to JYC, 3, #1318 of 2011 🔗

People actually don’t understand the law in many cases. They go by scenes on TV and assume it must now be mandated masks everywhere

167044 Nic, replying to Nic, 3, #1319 of 2011 🔗

Look at frances graphs on world ometer just proves what a farce this all is

167214 ▶▶ BeBopRockSteady, replying to Nic, #1320 of 2011 🔗

In what respect?

167045 Ali Brown, replying to Ali Brown, 38, #1321 of 2011 🔗

Long time reader here but don’t normally comment on anything online. However I just read the article on could Muslim covid deaths be higher due to doctors putting covid as the cause of death so the deceased can be buried faster. I can confirm the case quoted is not alone. A friend of mine (Muslim as am i) who’s auntie died of a heart attack was told it could take 2 weeks for a death certificate, but only 24 if they put it down as covid, which I think they did. Another uncle who died was classed as covid death by a doctor who never saw him even though the paramedics who saw him die said it was some kind organ failure not virus. Some dodgy figure manipulations, whether malicious or just lazy

167093 ▶▶ Tyneside Tigress, replying to Ali Brown, 8, #1322 of 2011 🔗

Thanks for posting this. There has been so much manipulation of data it is difficult to cast it as anything other than deliberate.

167053 calchas, replying to calchas, 8, #1323 of 2011 🔗

…..evil forces are attempting to kill the human spirit, which in turn will destroy the beauty of life.

Gary Barnett


167107 ▶▶ James, replying to calchas, 2, #1324 of 2011 🔗

A wonderfully succinct piece of writing. He sums it all up. It is chilling but should be widely circulated.

167245 ▶▶▶ Mrs issedoff, replying to James, 1, #1325 of 2011 🔗

Chilling certainly describes it well James. It made me tear up, which is nothing new at the moment for me.

167055 stefarm, replying to stefarm, 11, #1326 of 2011 🔗

Are we supposed to believe that royal families, head’s of state, members of parliament, Hollywood a-z Listers, professional sportsmen and women and important movers and shakers are all going to take the cat piss vaccine???

167068 ▶▶ Charlie Blue, replying to stefarm, 2, #1327 of 2011 🔗

I imagine many if them would. Being high profile doesn’t guarantee intelligence or independent thought.

167081 ▶▶▶ stefarm, replying to Charlie Blue, #1328 of 2011 🔗

Ha true,

167159 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Charlie Blue, 2, #1329 of 2011 🔗

The Royal Family have the sense to use homeopathy rather than harmaceuticals. No way they’ll accept a real vaccine.

167165 ▶▶▶▶ Jonathan Palmer, replying to Cheezilla, 3, #1330 of 2011 🔗

I had Viscount Linley in my cab last night,unmasked with his travelling companions

167169 ▶▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Jonathan Palmer, #1331 of 2011 🔗

Pity cabs don’t have CCTV – would’ve been good evidence!

167235 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Jonathan Palmer, replying to Carrie, 1, #1332 of 2011 🔗

Some do.Just shows the great and good know it’s a load of bollox

167274 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ stefarm, replying to Jonathan Palmer, #1333 of 2011 🔗

Yeah, we aren’t invited to the party!

167075 ▶▶ Lisa from Toronto, replying to stefarm, 1, #1334 of 2011 🔗

I’m guessing they’ll do a photo op but take a saline injection instead of the cat piss vaccine.

167095 ▶▶ Recusant, replying to stefarm, 8, #1335 of 2011 🔗

Prince Harry will be the first in the queue, the gormless prick. And then he’ll lecture us how racist we are for not getting it.

167102 ▶▶▶ DRW, replying to Recusant, 3, #1336 of 2011 🔗

As well as selfish, irresponsible, sociopaths, covidiots, granny killers etc.

167135 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to stefarm, 4, #1337 of 2011 🔗

They will be getting a placebo – on film of course… No covipass problems for them! Grrrr….

167262 ▶▶▶ Jay Berger, replying to Carrie, 1, #1338 of 2011 🔗

Maybe we’ll all get a placebo.
There is no way that the vaccines can be proven to be safe and effective within a few more months.
They can ensure that they are deemed to be safe by giving us placebos and effective by manipulating statistics and criteria, e.g. for dying with or of Covid.
If they standardize the PCR test and limit it to 30 cycles or so, they’ll get no positives anymore and can and will credit the vaccine for that instead.
And they will of course still be able to introduce their beloved discriminatory health passports regardless.

167298 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Jay Berger, #1339 of 2011 🔗

I’d love to think so, but Gates has form on dodgy vaccines with side effects such as infertility…

167060 Basics, replying to Basics, 4, #1340 of 2011 🔗

Oh and here’s the Public Health England report that shows the PCR test was developed without tge virus and used good old fashioned rumour as some of its guiding principles.

Dr Kevin Corbett MSc PhD
Covid PCR test made using rumour + no virus

Read the paper co-authored by Public Health England



167087 ▶▶ Silke David, replying to Basics, 4, #1341 of 2011 🔗

Reading this makes my blood boil. I listened to Crimes against Humanity earlier (tbh, surprised YT had not removed it yet!) and felt like the worst torture practices on Drosten are even not evil enough. (and I am a pacifist and used to be a member of Amnesty).
What that man has inflicted on us is truly despicable, but one has to consider how easily the government went along with it.
He needs to be tried in The Hague, for sure.

167133 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Silke David, 3, #1342 of 2011 🔗

It’s good it’s already on bitchute for when youtube remove it..

The court case can’t come too soon! Am guessing Gates will fund the defence case?

167142 ▶▶▶▶ Basics, replying to Carrie, 3, #1343 of 2011 🔗

Up on brand new tube too

167158 ▶▶▶▶ Silke David, replying to Carrie, 1, #1344 of 2011 🔗

A video of a childrens doctor in Germany questioning masks on children and asking colleagues for help to conduct a study has been removed.
Less than 24hrs.

167168 ▶▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Silke David, 1, #1345 of 2011 🔗

Hopefully will be re-posted elsewhere?

167155 ▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Silke David, #1346 of 2011 🔗

No. We need to focus on the real culprits in government.

167064 Cheezilla, replying to Cheezilla, 4, #1347 of 2011 🔗

Did we see this when first published?


We’ve discovered local councils in St Helens, Slough, Sheffield, Leicester and Rotherham have issued similar instructions for residents to get tested ‘even if you don’t have symptoms’ .

Worth a read, though mostly showing the total lack of accurate knowledge and discernment on the part of the locals.

Twenty-year-old Naseem, was ‘just passing by, so I thought, why not?’ He hadn’t been all that worried – ‘I’ve heard it’s something like a lung problem?’ – but had lost his job in McDonald’s when it closed in March, which made life pretty dire. He’s working again, in a supermarket. Did anyone explain to him that, should the test come back positive, he’d need to isolate for up to ten days and anyone he lives with quarantine for two weeks?
Or that, as Health Secretary Matt Hancock announced last week, that ‘Covid-carriers’ compelled to stay at home would be paid just £182 over 14 days for their trouble?
‘What? I have to go.’
I take that as a no, then.

What chance have we got?

Abdul Razaq, Lancashire’s Director of Public Health, even said ‘asymptomatic testing’ was a ‘vital part of our overall public health strategy in terms of identifying those residents who may actually carry the virus’.
And that strategy was in full swing on Market Street when I visited last week.
‘Free Covid-19 tests!’ yells a council worker from behind a trestle table at bemused passers-by. I join the steady stream of locals waiting to see one of two nurses who, in full PPE, are carrying out nose and throat swabs, right there on the street corner.
Nelson resident Lynn, 70, tells me it’s the second time she’s dropped by the mobile testing site, while out shopping. She’s not suffering any symptoms but adds, cheerfully: ‘That doesn’t mean I don’t have it. My last test was a month ago, and it came back negative, but am I today?’
Next in line, Lisa, 39, tells me she’s having a test ‘because everyone else is. Why not? I’m doing my bit’. Nora, 59, who’s also about to have a test, seems less gung-ho.
Since the pandemic struck, she’s felt ‘worried’ and ‘scared’. She hopes having the test will provide some ‘peace of mind’.
What if it’s positive? ‘I don’t know,’ she admits, looking faintly shocked from behind her face mask. ‘Do you think it might be?’

At least the questions are starting to be asked but I was concerned about this quote from Carl Heneghan:

One of the main problems is that the standard Covid-19 test used works by picking up fragments of viral RNA – a kind of genetic material. While useful, it has a high false negative rate – not picking up the RNA when, in fact, it is there.
In a hospital setting, the test is only used to confirm a diagnosis that’s pretty much already known, on account of symptoms.
But there’s another problem. ‘People can go on shedding viral RNA for up to 80 days after initial infection,’ explains Prof Heneghan.

High false negative rate. Did Heneghan really say that?!

167069 ▶▶ Hubes, replying to Cheezilla, 15, #1348 of 2011 🔗

Some of the comments of the people getting the test sum up the ignorance and stupidity of the majority of the general public.

167078 ▶▶▶ Silke David, replying to Hubes, 4, #1349 of 2011 🔗

Had a similar exchange with a totally ignorant person on a local chat site today.
She actually posted a gif, saying she is not bothered or interested enough to carry on the discussion. SIGH!

167092 ▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Hubes, 4, #1350 of 2011 🔗

It’s not so much that – it’s the degree of deliberate lying to which they are being subjected – all to save the face of Mr Toad & Co. and the potential wealth of government advisors.

167144 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to RickH, 6, #1351 of 2011 🔗

Yes. My friend was in a zoom coffee morning with a load of “ladies” who were twittering on about masks and distancing.

Friend introduced a few statistics, with very interesting results.
The “ladies” went quiet and friend said it was obvious that most had blanked out – probably couldn’t cope with the cognitive dissonance!

However, one quietly asked my friend: “Where did you get that information from?” She has been sent links to Lockdown Sceptics and Hector Drummond – just for starters!

167128 ▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Hubes, 5, #1352 of 2011 🔗

Yes, they have bought into the ‘do your bit’ brainwashing from the government…

167098 ▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to Cheezilla, 1, #1353 of 2011 🔗

I don’t know whether he said it, but it’s quite correct. BMJ article Interpreting a covid-19 test result

A systematic review of the accuracy of covid-19 tests reported false negative rates of between 2% and 29% (equating to sensitivity of 71-98%), based on negative RT-PCR tests which were positive on repeat testing.6 The use of repeat RT-PCR testing as gold standard is likely to underestimate the true rate of false negatives, as not all patients in the included studies received repeat testing and those with clinically diagnosed covid-19 were not considered as actually having covid-19.


Accuracy of viral RNA swabs in clinical practice varies depending on the site and quality of sampling. In one study, sensitivity of RT-PCR in 205 patients varied, at 93% for broncho-alveolar lavage, 72% for sputum, 63% for nasal swabs, and only 32% for throat swabs. Accuracy is also likely to vary depending on stage of disease

167153 ▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Richard Pinch, 3, #1354 of 2011 🔗

That article is just polishing a turd and ducking the real questions about why the PCR test should not be used in non-laboratory situations, where it’s just dangerous toys for boys.

167154 ▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Richard Pinch, 1, #1355 of 2011 🔗

I know that’s technically correct Richard but wondered why an article that questioned the necessity for creating a casedemic by testing healthy people, would then undo the whole slant by suggesting the numbers might be higher. Especially considering Heneghan’s attitude to this whole fiasco.
It might be scientifically correct but it’s a dire misrepresentation of the facts.
Either way, it proves the PCR test is inappropriate!

167176 ▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to Cheezilla, 3, #1356 of 2011 🔗

I suppose that one reason for saying it is that as a scientist he feels some obligation to state relevant truths whether or not they happen to suit a particular point of view.

But another is that false negatives have a bearing on mass testing. If the object of mass testing is to identify and isolate true positives to prevent them infecting others (and passing over other issues such as false positives) then a false negative rate means that you are not isolating all the people you want to isolate and, worse, giving them a “certificate” that makes them feel free to engage in normal social interactions and thereby contribute to the spread of the disease. So for the purposes of suppression, both false positives and false negatives are serious failings, albeit in different ways.

167192 ▶▶▶▶▶ BeBopRockSteady, replying to Richard Pinch, 4, #1357 of 2011 🔗

Well said. My thoughts exactly.

Track and trace is a dead duck from the off. IFR and R0 numbers are pissing in the wind.

All we can be sure of is people at hospital doors but even then FNs mean they’d be spreading it into hospitals. And we know they count anyone + as a Covid admission, regardless of why they are presenting. And even then it could be a False Positive.

You see, the German lawyers are onto it. Focus on PCR and this whole theatre show sees the curtain come down. A reckoning is coming.

167177 ▶▶▶▶ BeBopRockSteady, replying to Cheezilla, 2, #1358 of 2011 🔗

Listen if there are a load of False Negatives, the PCR test is a criminal measure for lockdowns. If we have a load of False Positives same. The test is useless for mass screening for a virus when the large majority of em are asymptomatic. Which surely the False Negatives largely are as they’d show up in the hospital numbers if they were sick enough.

And to top it all lots of False Negatives means the IFR is even lower and this whole episode is looking increasingly macabre as Prof Gupta said recently on her interview with Andrew Neil.

Dr Malcom McKendrick has an excellent post on the balance between false positives and negatives which demonstrates that no matter what way you look at it…PCR needs a full enquiry now.


167243 ▶▶▶ Tee Ell, replying to Richard Pinch, 2, #1359 of 2011 🔗

I have no idea why but your post had a downvote, I’ve neutralised it ha.

I thought we were here as cynics seeking truth and liberty, not deniers sticking our heads in the sand. The test has moderate sensitivity and high specificity as you’ve said, no need for people to downvote factual statements.

167569 ▶▶▶▶ Richard Pinch, replying to Tee Ell, #1360 of 2011 🔗


167126 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Cheezilla, 2, #1361 of 2011 🔗

If I was in the UK, I’d be wanting to stop people on the way into testing places and hand out a link to the Crimes against Humanity film!

167204 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Cheezilla, #1362 of 2011 🔗

What a piss take this is with all these free tests, but you ask your GP (if you can get an appointment) for any kinds of tests and they will more than likely refuse or make you jump through hoops first before they will do it!

167209 ▶▶ John P, replying to Cheezilla, #1363 of 2011 🔗

We’ve discovered local councils in St Helens, Slough, Sheffield, Leicester and Rotherham have issued similar instructions for residents to get tested ‘even if you don’t have symptoms’ .

I live in one of those areas. I have not been forced to take a test.

167070 Steeve, replying to Steeve, 13, #1364 of 2011 🔗

Weekend report
Another routine shop in Aldi
First visit to motorway services without a mask Bought a few items – No problem
On Saturday it poured down but Delamere Forest was quite busy. Lots of families out, walking, cycling and children splashing in puddles in their wellies. Everyone getting soaked but enjoying the day. In the café children with eyes opening and smiles slowly appearing as the food arrived. Young people jogging, talking, walking. So over the weekend I was heartened by the resilience of people to make the most of an awful day. I did not see anyone whinging or complaining. We decided to stay overnight in our camper at a local site. On arrival we had out temperatures taken and had to wear a mask to sign in. My wife had hers, so in she went for the two minute sign in! I would have done the same because this young lady was not going to be an easy pass! We had both nearly drowned while walking and so a 240v hook took precedence. What struck me was the bounce in this young ladies step, a real sense of purpose in what she was doing. She was either fully on board with the script or a very good actress! Maybe it was a bit of both. We had a lovely night on the site, warmed up with our little fan heater. Toilets and showers were very clean and there was even a nappy bin (don’t get excited!).
Caught a bit of 606. A guy got through talking about some FA Cup match. It seems the team below could have fans but his team couldn’t because they were classed as elite. They had it streamed live into the club house and had said how ludicrous this was! They could watch it inside but not outside! Chris Sutton then chips in about how he thought that fans could start to being allowed back into grounds.
Later it was all Trump. Stephen Nolan asked some good questions – – I think the gist of one was “would it be better to allow the young people to mix and shield the elderly?”
Another was to a guy from Imperial College “Where are the major hotspots in the country?” He asked a few times but did not get a straight answer.
Most of it was about Trump, by the end of listening I felt I was coming down with something. One journalist asked had he been in the prone position, this was despite been told he had been walking around!
So off with the radio, the sound of rain on the van as I went to sleep, snuggled next to my wife, in the prone position to be on the safe side!
I felt both encouraged by peoples resilience in the wet weather and yet sad at how everything was different and got the impression that freedoms lost had not sunk in!

167077 ▶▶ Two-Six, replying to Steeve, 1, #1365 of 2011 🔗

Was that a private camp site? Where was is abouts? No need to be too specific.

167084 ▶▶▶ Steeve, replying to Two-Six, #1366 of 2011 🔗

Private – in the Delamere area (Cheshire)

167097 ▶▶▶▶ Two-Six, replying to Steeve, 1, #1367 of 2011 🔗

Is that area in a new lockdown region? The temperature checks for a camp site?? Blimey! Sounds terrible.

167104 ▶▶▶▶▶ Steeve, replying to Two-Six, #1368 of 2011 🔗

Not Yet! A few nearby though!

167109 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Two-Six, replying to Steeve, 1, #1369 of 2011 🔗

Try the caravan and motorhome club or the camping and caravan club. They have “a network” of small certified locations or CL’s they are pretty sane but they often don’t have toilets and showers. They are however usually pretty cheap, there are 1000’s of them and they are often in some very nice places. Nearly all of them are in very rural locations managed by rural local types who generally think covid is a load of bollocks.

167121 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Steeve, replying to Two-Six, #1370 of 2011 🔗

To be honest despite the madness it was OK and £18.50 for the night with a 240v hook up.

167125 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Two-Six, replying to Steeve, #1371 of 2011 🔗

This looks interesting too, https://britstops.com/

167130 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Steeve, replying to Two-Six, #1372 of 2011 🔗


167134 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Steeve, replying to Two-Six, #1373 of 2011 🔗


167139 ▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Steeve, #1374 of 2011 🔗

Great report. Thanks!

167140 ▶▶▶ Steeve, replying to Cheezilla, #1375 of 2011 🔗

Thanks for the Thanks!

167079 Basics, replying to Basics, 13, #1376 of 2011 🔗

Crucial PCR is a disaster reasoning clipped out of Dr Reiner Fuellmich

“Reasons why the PCR test is NOT fit for purpose. Even quoting from the CDC’s own documents.

“It’s crucial to understand this, because this entire “pandemic”, and resulting restrictions, is built on “new cases” which are really just PCR test positives

“German lawyer explains…”


Shareable 2 minute clip.

167122 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Basics, 5, #1377 of 2011 🔗

Can someone with Twitter please make sure all our sceptics in the public eye are sent the tweet with link to the Crimes against Humanity film?

I’m thinking Richard Madeley, Kirstie Allsopp, Julia H-B, Denise Welch, Peter Hitchens,Peter Ebdon and so on…

I note that Toby and James Delingpole don’t seem to have tweeted it…interesting..

167127 ▶▶▶ Country Mumkin, replying to Carrie, 1, #1378 of 2011 🔗

That is interesting. I wonder why they haven’t tweeted it.

167160 ▶▶▶▶ Carrie, replying to Country Mumkin, 2, #1379 of 2011 🔗

Don’t they both have mates in the government? Maybe by not tweeting it they can avoid they and their families being jabbed?

167194 ▶▶▶▶▶ Major Panic, replying to Carrie, 2, #1380 of 2011 🔗

It’s not mandatory, if people choose the jab thro ignorance, more fool them….

167188 ▶▶▶▶ Major Panic, replying to Country Mumkin, #1381 of 2011 🔗

Probably haven’t watched it, busy peeps

167205 ▶▶ John P, replying to Basics, 9, #1382 of 2011 🔗

“Reasons why the PCR test is NOT fit for purpose.”

Actually, the PCR test is fit for purpose. It is a laboratory technique for amplifying a sample of DNA for study.

The PCR test was never designed as a diagnostic test for viral infections and should not (IMO) be used in that way. It is a crude diagnostic tool at best.

167218 ▶▶▶ Major Panic, replying to John P, 6, #1383 of 2011 🔗

And why stop autopsies for c19 positives if the test is so crude and not fit for the purpose it was being used for

167241 ▶▶▶ Basics, replying to John P, 5, #1384 of 2011 🔗

Quite right the PCR test is not fit for the purpose it is being put to.

You coukd quibble and say the PCR test for sars cov 2 is not fit for purpose – because the 45 cycles are much much too high for purpose. 28 cycles being reliable with 35 cycles being the respect normal upper limit for amplification. It’s a huge % increase beyond a reliable testing methodolgy.

The tweet got across the point in few characers.

167085 Basics, 16, #1385 of 2011 🔗

Protest report from Dublin yesterday.


“Grafton Street has been blocked off as a number of protestors have started a sit-down protest.
The Dublin city street has been blockaded by hundreds of ‘anti-maskers’.

“The protests has started on the Custom House quays.

“From there, they moved throughout the city, before settling on Grafton Street.”

More coverage on the link

167088 JYC, 4, #1386 of 2011 🔗

If you are of a certain vintage and can remember Charlene singing “I’ve never been to me”, have a listen to the “And finally…” above. Brilliant.

167091 Basics, replying to Basics, 4, #1387 of 2011 🔗

Covid – a wedge driven into the union.

“Francis Hoar
I’ve thought that this was happening for some time. Outrageous behaviour from Gove – essentially allowing Sturgeon and her fanatical advisers to dictate policy across the United Kingdom”

More detail on Francis Hoar’s tweet:

167101 ▶▶ peter, replying to Basics, 2, #1388 of 2011 🔗

What garbage misdirecting blame to Sturgeon, she couldn’t organise a smoke in Amsterdam, instead a pathetic puppet reading from the same script as Boris, Smallcock, shitty whitty etc. Expected more from Hoar than more smoke & mirrors.

167111 ▶▶▶ RickH, replying to peter, 3, #1389 of 2011 🔗

One thing you know about leading government offenders like Gove, along with Johnson and Handoncock, is that they have remarkable records for uttering utter shite and lies.

It at least gives you a reciprocal bearing on the truth.

167131 ▶▶▶ Nessimmersion, replying to peter, 5, #1390 of 2011 🔗

Krankie, her sockpuppet dentist propagandist and the rest of the inept murderous crew in Edinburgh manage to make Boris’s mob look halfway competent.
Her performance with Scottish Care Homes surpasses anything in England, but has been memory holed by the BBC as not part of the message.

167138 ▶▶▶ Basics, replying to peter, 5, #1391 of 2011 🔗

She is blatantly politicising the issues at the same time as telling all how wrong it is to politicise any of this. That’s how it’s going at Holyrood. The gove tactic is unknown to me. Wouldn’t put it past any of the untrustables north or south.

167094 JHuntz, 37, #1392 of 2011 🔗

I just want to say the daily reports of peoples life whether its an event at school, the shops, the church, GP surgeries is the highlight of this website. It’s great to know that I am not alone in this madness

167099 petgor, 6, #1393 of 2011 🔗

It beats me that the government is basing its anti democratic conduct on poll results, when by now it should have realised that the main polling organisations are almost never right with their results. This was made clear in the last Australian election, when the bookies paid out before the result election the belief, based upon the polls, that Scott Morrison would lose.

167106 Silke David, replying to Silke David, 6, #1394 of 2011 🔗

I noticed there are more adverts for private healthcare.

167117 ▶▶ Nessimmersion, replying to Silke David, 6, #1395 of 2011 🔗

Curious how all the countries not blessed with an NHS manage to give the poor health and dental care.

It’s not coincidental that one system in particular came up with:
a)Liverpool Care Pathway.
b)Staffordshire Elderly Feeding Plan.
c) Cumbrian Neonatal Plan
d)Covid Care Home Transfer Plan.
They all have the same outcome for many patients who cannot afford private healthcare.

167147 ▶▶▶ Lucan Grey, replying to Nessimmersion, 2, #1396 of 2011 🔗

You appreciate that the majority of the NHS is private. GPs are all private businesses. As are dentists and all the Hospital Foundation Trusts.

The NHS is single payer, not a nationalised system

167166 ▶▶▶▶ Nessimmersion, replying to Lucan Grey, 2, #1397 of 2011 🔗

Really, so all GPs are private businesses are they?
The majority of the NHS is private is it?
Must be another planet I’m on with the Stalinist management structure of the NHS in contrast to the Bismarkian Social Insurance system prevalent in most other 1st world countries.
You have grasped at a grain of truth in your comments.
There is greater private sector involvement in the NHS in England than Wales or Scotland.
This is reflected in the marginally better performance of English NHS trusts.

Your appear to misunderstand my point about the NHS.
It is a particularly ineffective system when compared to the localism built in to the social insurance model of for example Holland or Germany.
Its core error is it treats patients as supplicants not customers.

167171 ▶▶▶▶▶ Steeve, replying to Nessimmersion, #1398 of 2011 🔗

Hi could you elaborate on supplicants – Thanks

167178 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Steeve, 1, #1399 of 2011 🔗

Oh – please don’t lets get into this sterile hobby-horse stuff. It’s irrelevant.

This is about political malfeasance and reach, not structures.

167210 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Nessimmersion, replying to Steeve, 2, #1400 of 2011 🔗

GPs are gatekeepers who decide if you are suitably deserving of treatment from a specialist.
You cannot go direct to a specialist, you need to be referred.

Have they shut down cancer screening or dental care or whatever your medical need is in Holland/Germany/Austria/France/Japan/Singapore.
If not – why not – what’s different about Covid abroad?

167230 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Steeve, replying to Nessimmersion, 1, #1401 of 2011 🔗

To be honest I have not looked into this. Are you saying hospitals/dentists kept running pretty much as normal in those countries?

167237 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Nessimmersion, replying to Steeve, #1402 of 2011 🔗

Read article linked to at the top of the page about Dentists for example.
Also here:

167248 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Jay Berger, replying to Steeve, 3, #1403 of 2011 🔗

In Germany, generally yes.
Empty wards and GP practices for a while, because people decided to stay home and some non – urgent stuff was deferred, but open for business for all essential stuff. Certainly after Easter and since then.
No PPE for dentists bar the usual mask.
Mental health facilities and doctors fully booked for months now- thanks to plenty of lockdown and Covid
panicmongering victims.

167256 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Steeve, replying to Jay Berger, 1, #1404 of 2011 🔗

Thanks for that insight!

167114 RickH, 16, #1405 of 2011 🔗

Brainwashing :

At school, my 5-year old grand daughter, when asked to come up with ‘things that help us to be safe’ put ‘social distancing’ just after the ‘zebra crossing’.

The next great item was from my daughter in our weekly ‘phone call : the technical staff in the major theatre of a major city have just been made redundant.

Beam me up, Scottie.

167157 BeBopRockSteady, replying to BeBopRockSteady, 1, #1406 of 2011 🔗

Ireland to go into lockdown mode again

167163 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to BeBopRockSteady, 5, #1407 of 2011 🔗

Looked for this on Twitter news but could not find anything?
What I did find was William and Kate going on about climate change.. (sigh…)

167167 ▶▶▶ Silke David, replying to Carrie, 2, #1408 of 2011 🔗

BBC news website full about Trump. Who cares???…..

167172 ▶▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Silke David, 1, #1409 of 2011 🔗

Not me – I couldn’t give a flying one. Why do we have to suffer from the national delusion that we share much with the US just because we share dialects of the same language?

167196 ▶▶▶▶▶ Julian, replying to RickH, 6, #1410 of 2011 🔗

I see a second Trump term as helpful to countering coronapanic, if only because a President Biden would work to keep it going

167183 ▶▶▶▶ Major Panic, replying to Silke David, 2, #1411 of 2011 🔗

They must be gutted, Trump lives….

167195 ▶▶▶▶▶ RickH, replying to Major Panic, #1412 of 2011 🔗

Well – that’s one thing I didn’t know. Trump ‘lives’ – so a bacterium rather than a virus? 🙂

167190 ▶▶▶ Basics, replying to Carrie, 1, #1413 of 2011 🔗

There carbon footprint versus anyone elses. Their own carbon game makes them so hypocritical and there’s an implied rudeness if it’s pointed out.

167310 ▶▶▶ Emily Tock, replying to Carrie, #1414 of 2011 🔗

NPHET supposedly recommending it, under the aegis of Holohan, he of the cervical smear and care home scandals. Government is to decide Monday. It’s absolute madness. https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1312838178592747520

167213 ▶▶ Recusant, replying to BeBopRockSteady, 1, #1415 of 2011 🔗

I hope they have nothing but boiled grass to eat by February. People should pay a price for going along with such bullshit.

167174 John P, replying to John P, 2, #1416 of 2011 🔗

I note the Sunday Times article claiming that Tory constituencies are not being targeted for lockdowns.

This might be a fair point, except that in the example “Oadby & Wigston” in lockdown is cited as an example. The borough of Oadby and Wigston is in Harborough constituency, a very safe Tory seat.

It’s also inevitable, as cities – predominantly Labour seats – are less distanced and contain greater concentrations of people than country areas, which are predominantly Tory.

167189 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to John P, 3, #1417 of 2011 🔗

I saw a list somewhere of the cases per 100,000 and there were areas in lockdown with fewer cases than areas that are not locked down..

167191 ▶▶ AngloWelshDragon, replying to John P, 1, #1418 of 2011 🔗

Isn’t it the case that local authorities have to ask for special measures? If so seems likely that labour authorities are more likely to bedwetters than conservative ones.

167203 ▶▶ RickH, replying to John P, 1, #1419 of 2011 🔗

O ye of massive faith. 🙂

They’ve always bent the rules to suit.

167473 ▶▶ SweetBabyCheeses, replying to John P, #1420 of 2011 🔗

The problem is that O&W is practically Leicester, although it’s a separate constituency. They were included in the original lockdown (still going over three months later) then their Tory MP got them let out early. Then as “cases” rose again they had to put them back under lockdown to avoid making a mockery of the Leicester one.

167179 swedenborg, 2, #1421 of 2011 🔗


NYT and a critical article about vaccines? And also by Eric Topol firmly embedded in Project fear. Is there now more scepticism in the US than UK?

According to the protocols for their studies, which they released late last week, a vaccine could meet the companies’ benchmark for success if it lowered the risk of mild Covid-19, but was never shown to reduce moderate or severe forms of the disease, or the risk of hospitalization, admissions to the intensive care unit or death.
To say a vaccine works should mean that most people no longer run the risk of getting seriously sick. That’s not what these trials will determine.
If the vaccines ultimately provide no benefit beyond a reduced risk of mild Covid-19, they could end up causing more discomfort than they prevent.

Third, even if the studies are allowed to run past their interim analyses, stopping a trial of 30,000 or 44,000 people after just 150 or so Covid-19 cases may make statistical sense, but it defies common sense. Giving a vaccine to hundreds of millions of healthy people based on such limited data requires a real leap of faith.

167181 Basics, replying to Basics, 2, #1422 of 2011 🔗

Unresearched thought. The UN has a weird religion inside it. The film in the loop has a scene set inside a weird chill out/alter space. I cannot recall the name of the UNs internal religion.

I wonder if there is a certain religion/cult at Imperial College. Fergussons ‘open’ lifestyle of two house holds seemingly interchanging partners isn’t the norm. By itself just shrug and say whatever. But their is an unusual narative setting story telling element within Imperial that won’t go away – some of their professors even present as slightly fanatical in their beliefs about science.

Is the UN religion Lucius Trust or have I mixed that with a publisher.

Point I’m written myself to is it seems almost cult like universal on message belief in completely bad practice at Imperial. It would be interesting to know if there are more unusual social connections among the staff.

167184 ▶▶ Carrie, replying to Basics, 1, #1423 of 2011 🔗

Never hear of ‘Lucius trust’, but it sounds far too much like Lucifer for my liking..

167199 ▶▶▶ Basics, replying to Carrie, #1424 of 2011 🔗

That is where the name came from. I’m foggy on what is religion and what is publisher. There is a UN religion that supposedly blends all existing religions into one.

167219 ▶▶▶ Basics, replying to Carrie, 1, #1425 of 2011 🔗
167275 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Basics, #1426 of 2011 🔗

Presumably from the Latin lucis .
Means of the light.

167303 ▶▶▶▶▶ Basics, replying to Cheezilla, #1427 of 2011 🔗

There is a predecessor organisation which was the Lucifer Trust. They are saying it is from light. See the logo on the link, it’s not ‘warm’. I don’t know bibles to know how lucifer and light mix together if at all.

I’m certain it was Lucifer Trust. There was a lady involved. And the rest is a haze.

167327 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Jonathan Palmer, replying to Basics, 2, #1428 of 2011 🔗

Lucifer is the original name of Satan before he fell from heaven.
Bearer of the light.
In the bible, lucifer directed the worship of God and was cast out of heaven with a third of the angels when pride entered him.

167340 ▶▶▶▶▶▶▶ Basics, replying to Jonathan Palmer, #1429 of 2011 🔗


167328 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ Judith Day, replying to Basics, 1, #1430 of 2011 🔗

‘The Coming Communist NWO, The Luciferian Global Elite & The Metastasizing Marxist Left: The Soon to Come Culmination of the Classical War between Good & Evil’by Stephen Wright

167330 ▶▶ Judith Day, replying to Basics, 1, #1431 of 2011 🔗

See my comment below.

167182 Fingerache Philip., replying to Fingerache Philip., 31, #1432 of 2011 🔗

Just watched a programme on I-player about the plague of 1665 and Samuel Pepys’s diary entries.
An historian was poking fun at Pepys because he believed that carrying a plug of chewing tobacco protected from the pestilence.
Stupid Pepys, eh?, we know that the way to protect yourself is to wear a filthy piece of cloth around your face and leave the taverns before 10 pm.

167186 ▶▶ AngloWelshDragon, replying to Fingerache Philip., 18, #1433 of 2011 🔗

And obviously put a crayola drawing of a rainbow in your window and say “stay safe” to all and sundry

167200 ▶▶▶ Fingerache Philip., replying to AngloWelshDragon, 10, #1434 of 2011 🔗

And don’t forget to take notice of those nauseating, patronising “public information” films, All together now :”I wear a mask to protect, ad nauseam”

167271 ▶▶▶▶ Cheezilla, replying to Fingerache Philip., 5, #1435 of 2011 🔗

No symptoms? Get tested. Get locked down.
You know it makes sense!

167375 ▶▶▶▶▶ chaos, replying to Cheezilla, 2, #1436 of 2011 🔗

Don’t forget to buy a bicycle, look after your waistline, and no sex (or hugs, or handshakes) with strangers.

167387 ▶▶▶▶▶▶ annie, replying to chaos, 2, #1437 of 2011 🔗

I think Amszon are now selling three-layer chastity belts in rainbow colours, with ‘stay safe’ written on them in curly letters.

167318 ▶▶ JohnB, replying to Fingerache Philip., 3, #1438 of 2011 🔗

So given tobacco’s apparent anti-covid effect, Pepys was centuries ahead of his time ?

167325 ▶▶ Judith Day, replying to Fingerache Philip., 1, #1439 of 2011 🔗

In our area 110 died of the Black Death in 1349; this year during this horrific ‘pandemic’ only 2 people died!

167197 Tenchy, replying to Tenchy, 10, #1440 of 2011 🔗

Utter bullshit! What stunt are they trying to pull now, FFS!


167295 ▶▶▶ Carrie,