2020-10-16

Another Friday, another day of Government garbage.

btw. First!

Hello Lockdown Sceptics

Approximately 1500 people die a day in Britain – yesterday the recorded Covid deaths were 138
(died of any cause 28 days after a positive tests according to the Government own website)
Last 3 days 143, 137 , 138 death . For this we are killing the economy and freedom

Ivor Cummins: Terrifying stuff. Truly incredible car-crash TV on last night, on a top reputable current affairs show no less!
What in the name of God is going on here? Wtf is happening…to science itself?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPmWYFlUK54

A great video that needs sharing!

Hello Lockdown Sceptics

Full national lockdowns should ONLY be used against coronavirus as a last resort because of the ‘collateral damage’ on mental health, says WHO boss

But he said total lockdowns caused ‘collateral damage’ and should be avoided
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8846019/National-lockdowns-resort-says-boss.html

Did Tedros get permission to speak from his chinese masters The Man makes Hancock competent in comparison this turd blossom Government must go

Tedros is controlled by Bill Gates.

And the CCP.

Agree, it’s excellent and very clear. MW

Hello Lockdown Sceptics

‘It’s a massive claim; I think the pandemic is fundamentally over ’
Former chief scientific advisor with Pfizer Mike Yeadon has said he believes the coronavirus pandemic is drawing to a close, despite rising cases in parts of the UK.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMlfxnCJppE

Truth about the claims scaring us all to death: Soaring infections, teeming hospital wards, and terrifying death rates… but do the numbers justifying crippling new lockdowns REALLY stand up to scrutiny ?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8845533/Coronavirus-Soaring-infections-death-rates-claims-justify-lockdowns.html

We desperately need to inculcate critical thinking skills to the nation’s children and young adults, I think it may be too late for (some of) the old dogs who occupy the Houses of Commons and Lords. That said, what political class would want scrutiny of their policies by a truly educated populace? Loss of control of free people, loss of narcissistic self interest, loss of the gravy train, loss of opportunities for gratuitous manipulation, loss of power? What cabal of front bench politicians would want that?

There’s a reason why certain things aren’t taught in schools. A classic one, as author Robert Kiyosaki often points out, is basic personal finance.

The last thing a government wants is an educated population! Those who go university and choose a career in academia are usually brainwashed or Institutionalized.

Interview with annt

MP Chris Green, The First UK politician to resign from government over the crisis – 16th Oct 2020

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eBSwspojh4

I visited him two weeks ago and I like to think I convinced him! (to be fair he was most of the way there himself) maybe I should schedule a meeting with BoJo and Hancock…..

maybe because he was served with notice of legal action?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9pm3Z6nFnk&feature=youtu.be

Hi BD

Mark Dolan: “We are killing Britain”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3oLyFQcGok

Mark Dolan: “We are killing Britain. We can’t do this forever. This virus isn’t going anywhere. Don’t be fooled by talk of a quick fix vaccine. That’s nothing more than snake oil.

A Letter from today’s Telegraph

<i>SIR – Although I am able go to shops and restaurants, I miss being able to talk to shop attendants and waiters, and having a laugh. I am hard of hearing, so cannot make out what people are saying while they are wearing a mask.

I feel isolated and lonely, as I cannot speak to anyone.

David Hunter
Godalming, Surrey</i>

There is many a dim bulb with a PhD or chair in an academy. Certainly, they are not well educated. It seems to me that this is the inevitable outcome of a failed system of education. Uneducated students from the lower levels of education lead to uneducated undergraduates, uneducated graduates, uneducated post graduates, and, ultimately uneducated professors. Seems to me that this is analogous to a very old Italian car (apologies to Italian car manufacturers) that rots from the bottom up. Hence, it seems to me, the total mess we are in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9pm3Z6nFnk&feature=youtu.be
they work for the WEF and UN, not the people

SAGE have got everything wrong. They are working for the vaccine industry and Gates and friends at WEF
legal actions against individual MP’s starting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9pm3Z6nFnk&feature=youtu.be

Local Live (mirror group news) reports total new cases for the County last week down 24% from the the previous seven days.

I thought it was supposed to be doubling.

‘Exponential rise’ still going strong.

“If you tell a big lie often enough people will come to believe it”.
Joseph Goebbels (speaking of the British).

Patrick Vallance suggests there are “up to” 74,000 cases per day. Yahoo News reports this as “If there are 74,000 cases that would mean cases are four times higher than Government daily figures”. Well, IF cases were only 170, that would be a tenth of the cases reported in Government figures, and that’s not correct either. What’s with the scaremongering “if”?

The 3rd way

Very sad for you good folks in the UK – I’ll be raging mad if the lockdown switch is flicked on again where I live…compared to the first round (where I was accepting) a second go at it will really be hard to swallow knowing what I know now.

Where are you, Eddie?

Way over here in Canada, province of BC. I’m expecting we’ll get screwed again but I pay zero attention to our media so ignorance is bliss for now. All the best to you Ann!

BC is a wonderful place.
Let’s all join hands across the oceans – and continents.
Things are bad, but our spirit is unbowed.

Has SAGE actually got anything right?

I have maintained all along that Sweden did the right thing. Very surprised that some Britons were so gullible to be taken in by the scaremongering crap.

Some?Pretty well all of them. We are a nation of concrete-headed moronic cowards.
Present company excepted!

I have to agree. I have been speechless at the response by the vast majority. People I thought were intelligent completey neurotic and brainwashed and not doing one bit of research outside of the media to change this and it continues after all these months. I can’t mix with them any more. Even before all the research (although I started from day 1), I have never thought there was much of a risk unless already very sick and I want to shake people and say regardless, just get a grip of yourself and accept that from the minute you are born one thing is certain and that’s one day you are going to die.

Neighbouring local authority reports first Covid death for 4 months (elderly lady) yet still people act as though we are facing medieval plague.

But it was exactly the same during the Brexit Referendum wasn’t it?

There is a slow waking up people need to do so faster

Sadly I agree with you. If my workplace is anything to go by, many of them simply get their news on the MSM and believe what they read. Even after all this time they haven’t done their research and social distancing and mask wearing has become a religion for them.

Despite the woes that our workplace is undergoing including the threat of compulsory redundancy (already certain to become a reality), many of them are still of the view that if only people obeyed the rules we will be OK.

I think the next few weeks, months will disavow them of that notion.

My partner has been telling me for years that people don’t get their news from the MSM any longer. I said they were. Turns out I was right.

In part I think you both are – Facebook/Twitter et al is the main news source for a wide range of people I am in regular contact with.

A lot of my colleagues read the BBC and some the Guardian. Facebook provides the confirmation bias that they already have.

It seems judges get all their info from the MSM too.

Given all the SAGE and WHO propaganda relentlessly pumped out by the broadcast media (and my conspiracy theorist friends certainly have a point here) it’s not surprising that most people appear to support the lockdown.  It would help if the government did not pull any punches about the cost – millions of jobs destroyed, poorer life opportunities for young people, increased levels of poverty and all the other collateral damage. Rishi Sunak – over to you. At least The Telegraph, Sun and Daily Mail are now firmly in the lockdown sceptic camp.

… my conspiracy theorist friends …

Theorist ? Theorist ? At what point will you acknowledge the reality – troops on the streets ? cash banned ? ‘isolation’ camps ?

At least we know how the Germans in the 1930s were brainwashed

The Germans allowed Hitler into power to deal with a real and present problem not a phoney one.

(Not aimed at you, John.).

Ouch!

A worrying comment.

Unfortunately I wish it was only ‘some’ of us, most are braindead.

I don’t believe that. The problem is we are being isolated from each other, and lied to by pollsters. The mask aids the lie: most who wear it do so only out of fear, but the impression given by wearing it is of belief. Conversations I have, and others I eavesdrop, imply a much higher level of public scepticism than we are being told.

“Only out of fear” is too ambiguous: does it mean fear of being infected, fear of infecting others, fear of the authorities, or fear of vigilantes?

Fair point. Fear of ‘trouble’, not any virus

Fear is a broad church…and a movable feast. Can spring on one anytime, just in a trice. Non-compliance and humour. Peaceful solution.

That’s the ones who rip the foul things off their faces the instant they leave the premises.

Sage is not tasked with getting anything right. It is tasked with destroying all that we might have held dear, crushing the economy and supporting the behavioural insights team with its brainwashing.

Back in late March I was posting anti-lockdown and sceptical comments on various right-of-centre sites and getting plenty of abuse and a generally negative reaction. How times have changed. Still a mountain to climb, though, with the wider population of this country.

Ah yes, happy days. Abused by all and sundry. Feels like seven years ago, rather than seven months.

Sage has/is getting it all right . But only in the terms set for it .

research the composition of the members and advisers , eg Deep Blue etc .
What do these people have to do with health ?
Why is actual medical expertise essentially excluded from any input ?

The details of the procedures that are in place and being undertaken are all laid out in the articles of the WHO international health regulations .

The people involved now are the ones who drew up the UK “Influenza pandemic preparedness plan” as required by the IHR.

When the WHO determines that a pandemic is occurring, the national IPPP kicks in ,overseen by the same WHO embedded enthusiasts that wrote the plan .
Van Tam , Valence , Ferguson etc etc . Whole careers have been spent in anticipation of this event and they are going to pursue it for all they can, and they give cover for the ulterior motives of the politicians.

Also see the UN/WHO Global Pandemic Monitoring Board , last September their report “World at risk” page 38
they require 2 system wide pandemic simulations to be carried out before 09/20.

This isn’t a conspiracy, it’s an agenda . They want to change everything about human society . The only thing still up for grabs is which political cohort gets to put their stamp on it .

for info on the ai revolution and monetising of life please visit
Wrench in the gears website . There are good explanatory vids , a bit long but very good .

Abraham Lincoln said “You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.”The SAGE team just can’t accept they were wrong. They should be disbanded and replaced!

When people have suffered enough then they will force the dictatorship out of power

At the moment the dictatorship can kill individuals and groups with impunity

People will fight for their freedom only when they realise that living like this is worse than dying and are prepared to lay down their lives in the cause

Don’t think I am far off that now. It is utterly hopeless. Even the summer now seems like a Golden Age, you know, when restrictions were very slowly being lifted (but I am forgetting the north, sorry). Now it seems clear that the Pandora’s Box has been opened. The Govts have done with us what they will and it can never be right again. There truly is no going back. I actually had one of those moments yesterday, and again about an hour ago when I seriously wondered if I had actually died and gone to hell. It’s a joke I have made flippantly so many times before – and I know it’s solipsistic – but the thought really took root, at least temporarily. None of us in this country have ever known what it is like to be turned on at such a seismic level by those we vote for and pay (not that I voted for them but the others as bad). I have read the words “pure evil” on this site and I now know it is true.
If people are going to die for the cause it needs to be in an organised way, and that might be tricky to arrange!

Remember that the kast thing to come out if Pandora’s box was Hope. Treasure it.

While on the subject of hope, I recommend this video.

https://youtu.be/BiAeS-7vt2k

While you might find Richard’s delivery a bit grating in this video, his point is valid. He only recently started reading posts rather than simply speaking somewhat off-the-cuff. His main claim to fame is helping people recover from narcissistic relationships and complex PTSD.

I’m pretty close to wanting to batter a few politicians heads in.

Can’t be organised online. Too many eyes…

Non compliance is the only way. I personally believe a general strike of “key” workers should do the trick easily.

Alternatively, all key workers phone in sick citing covid symptoms.

Play the fuckers at their own game.

https://wagingnonviolence.org/2014/10/gandhi-win/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protest
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Lakey

Building critical mass is the way forward: leafleting, talking to others, writings, graffiti, posters, stickers; then individual non-compliance and the forming of activist groups; then individual and group actions – both traditional methods and creative ‘direct action’.

Absolutely! Cellular level. Non-digital, hard copy, transferable, untraceable…well? Anyway, get the info out, and when the numbers are up and running…mass disobediance. Peaceful, of course. All the elderly, all those children..all out and about. Let’s get covid done by Xmas, eh what?

Remove the Tory government.org

People had better wake up very soon and start doing something about it.

From memory the Xhosa cattle killing omits an important detail. As the craze peaked the believers killed the cattle of the Sceptics and the Sceptics too.
Soz to be a downer.

Mandela was a (posh) Xhosa. The old joke was what’s the difference between an optimist and a pessimist? The optimist is learning Zulu (Buthelezi) the pessimist is learning Xhosa.

Was the joke you refer to one told by white South Africans during the late apartheid era, comparable to the one in late-WWII Germany about the optimists learning English and the pessimists Russian?

“SAGE is Worse Than Useless” Mike Yeadon

Don’t beat about the bush, Mike; tell us what you really think.

By its own stupidity the dictatorship will soon defund itself

However, Gates, Rockefeller, Rothschild, Soros &co will continue the funding.

We have to turn the complicit MPs or the police and military, deny labour and fill the streets with our bodies.

Hello Toby’s Lockdown Sceptics

Approximately 1500 people die a day in Britain – yesterday the recorded Covid deaths were 138
(died of any cause 28 days after a positive tests according to the Government own website)
Last 3 days 143, 137 , 138 death . For this we are killing the economy and freedom

Ivor Cummins: Terrifying stuff. Truly incredible car-crash TV on last night, on a top reputable current affairs show no less!
What in the name of God is going on here? Wtf is happening…to science itself?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPmWYFlUK54

The problem with the “it’s all one big cockup” theory is that the government aren’t just going on unprovable beliefs. They know exactly what they are doing and are lying about everything, the hospital admissions, the death rate, the vulnerability etc. It’s really difficult to believe that they are really this stupid.
The point in the summer when people had basically stopped dying of this virus but face masks were made mandatory would indicate another agenda was in place.
Why has there been no mention of the Great Reset by the editors on this site?

Perhaps he isn’t what he says he is?

To which “he” are you referring, and what does this “he” say he is?

I still believe this is cock up, not conspiracy. I do believe we are now in a situation where major dishonesty is being enacted upon the population and that is due to backside covering. They do know they are lying, exaggerating and cherry picking data now but they don’t know how to stop, having backed themselves into a corner.
I know there will be people who say that we are not the only country doing this by any means but I think that’s just follow the herd. E.g “Oh look France is doing such and such so we’d better do it too or slightly more or be condemned as callous killers.”
Nearly all governments have panicked themselves into a zero Covid attempt and don’t know how to deal with the fact that it just can’t be achieved.
I could be very wrong of course …

I would agree with you Steph as in a cock-up and saving face, rather than a conspiracy. If Blair was in charge, then a conspiracy may be more likely, but Johnson, Hancock et al…..I just don’t buy it, as quite simply, they lack basic intelligence.

They are just actors reading a script, covid is a total hoax.
The best way to control the opposition is to lead it.

Absolutely.
.

No one in their right minds would suggest this was all being plotted by Bozo and Handjob. These two are bit players and their roles are to look dumb, so that people like you, will put it all down to incompetence and stupidity. This is much bigger than the UK and apart from a very few exceptions, it’s the same bloody nonsense the world over.

I agree with this too. Blair evil – Johnson inept and Hancock is – well, words fail me – A health minister who does not know the difference between a virus and malaria and who says – Cancer patients might not get treatment if the covid numbers don’t come down or Don’t kill your granny — This man is a twit of the first order and must, like SAGE, be sacked. He is an embarrassment.. I voted for Boris Johnson – sadly he is not up to it ……

Whilst I can see concerning links to great rarest ideas etc am still just about ok with cock up theory – talking to someone this week who had no reason to lie and a connection into Cabinet Office – two things advised – firstly De Piffle does not like the job – it’s too much like hard work and requires detail and repetition none of which is his idea of what he thought the job would be and secondly (presumably as a result of point one) the basic project management around Covid is pretty much non existent so lurches from one thing to the next. Not sure how we dispose of him but he has to go

I said something similar on here yesterday but I had no inside knowledge of course. Good to get it confirmed. It seems to me that the PM thought he just had to be a figurehead whilst his team got Brexit done and then he would be lauded. Instead he has a real crisis and has no powers of critical thinking or man management to get us through this sensibly.
The Project Management question is interesting. Any Project Manager knows that you have to define success and it has to be achievable. The do nothing approach should also be considered sensibly which it clearly wasn’t here.

Exactly. He screwed over Teresa May and was desperate to be PM to ‘get Brexit done’. He didn’t bank on a global pandemic royally fucking up his plans now he’s in way out of his depth and has no clue what to do. His main priority now is covering his own arse.

His hands don’t reach that far

Good old lazy Boris and his lack of attention to detail.Thats why the government lurches from one policy to the next.Sounds good until you realise that France,Belguim Spain Netherlands are using exactly the same methods.Are they all run by fat useless buffoons as well.

I wrote this on BrexitFacts4EU yesterday – it adds a new perspective?
I get the impression that Johnson’s catastrophic positions on policy are heavily influenced by his father, Stanley:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wi …
https://www.express.co.uk/n …
– notably pro-China (5G), environment (The Great Reset?), and a globalist approach (ex-World Bank). He has written books on population control and Virus pandemics. Apparently, he will apply for French citizenship once Brexit is done.
–
I have to question whether Boris is working for the good of himself, or for the good of the country.
I expect he has noticed how well Mr Blair has done since being out of office.

The links don’t work I’m afraid.

apologies (just copied my post directly from BrexitFacts4EU website – here are the links afresh):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Johnson_(writer)
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1241163/nigel-farage-lbc-news-boris-johnson-family-huawei-ban-5g-network-china

Judging from his behaviour during March, I don’t think that Boris Johnson ever really wanted to lock down Britain: is it not more likely that he was somehow coerced into doing it, perhaps because the Chinese had compromised him through those family connections you refer to?

Rather than coercion, I was wondering whether there is family pressure to favour Chinese/Globalist/Environment policies? Inevitably that favouritism might then suggest there may be some kind of reward or pay-off for the wider family at large in the future? Johnson will not be Prime Minister for long, perhaps he doesn’t want to be, – so perhaps he is open to such persuasion?
Agreed he was panicked into Lockdown – however, what is of concern is that once the evidence came in that this was no worse than the flu, he continued with Lockdown. Why?
Many possibilities, and the above is just one more perspective.

Did you know that covering up a mistake is also a conspiracy

I do agree with that view. However most read conspiracy as something even more sinister that systematic lying to cover backsides so I prefer not to use that term. I concede that technically it is a conspiracy as well.

I think this goes beyond back covering.The vaccine part is not even conspiracy now,it’s government policy.Also digital/health passports.Thats policy too.You can see an embryonic police state taking shape.Scan a code wherever you go.No cash due to false reports,further source of surveillance.These are not the actions of people covering their backs.
Then look across the world and you see the response is pretty similar.This all starts to add up to something very sinister

In any crisis, or even pseudo-crisis such as the ‘Pandemic’, there are always disparate groups and individuals who will take advantage of it to drive their own agendas. Same thing happened in WW2. It doesn’t necessarily mean these groups are driving the events, just trying to manipulate them for their own ends.

I believe that a conviction for Conspiracy carrys no limit on the prison sentence.

Believe it Steph. The problem with the majority is they’re too trusting and do not think the government would do anything to harm us. They have, and will continue to do so.

The way I see things, the govt didn’t really care too much back in Jan/Feb, and assumed that they’d be able to just babble on about hand washing and this would all blow over in a month or so. But once the media decided that this was going to be an apocalypse they HAD to respond, and in the meantime had realised that all this could be a nice little earner for all concerned – the MSM get everyone hooked on terror, billions could be doled out with no scrutiny to all their mates for tracing apps and masks and whatnot, and it provides a great distraction for the complete failure of Brexit negotiations. Tell everyone it’s ‘for the NHS’ and nobody will dare object. If Boris gets to be remembered as some Churchillian hero that’s a nice bonus, but don’t count on it.

He will be remembered. As the worst prime minister ever, leading (?) the worst government ever. His name will be a by-word for incompetence, stupidity and totalitarian malevolence.

Anybody else know C. S. Lewis’s The Last Battle ? Boris reminds me strongly of Shift the Ape. Wancock is more like Rishda Tarkaan. In the end, the devil-god Tash ate both of them,

Who cares whether it is a conspiracy or a cock up?

It’s being on the Titanic as it is going down and arguing as to whether it crashed into the iceberg by accident or on purpose. It’s going down. It’s a disaster.

The difference is, if it’s a cock-up, the crew will throw lifebelts to you in the water. If it’s a conspiracy, they will start machine gunning you.

Law of unintended consequences. The government wanted people to take notice of this new disease, so set out to scare them. That worked, but with the consequence that when some really bad news came out from Italy, people panicked. The press panicked. Panic spreads.

So the government locked down. Maybe because everyone else was doing it, maybe because Johnson and Micron are friends and had a little “chat”. But they locked down. An unintended consequence of the panic the government itself had helped in no small measure to create.

At what point does the government admit not only that it called the situation wrong, but also that it had been lying to the population. Hence the floundering around, looking for a way out, easing restrictions gradually and showing people it is now safe to come out.

But because nobody really understands the science in government (nor apparently, on the SAGE committee), the wild card, the joker in the pack, is the fresh increase in numbers who are now testing positive. And the whole panic thing starts all over again.

I am less inclined to believe in an over-arching conspiracy now that central government seems keen on devolving Covid regulations to local government. If there really were a Bond Villain conspiracy, I hardly think they would risk delegating its execution to chain-wearing nonentities in northern town halls.

I doubt anyone, or many, here think this is pure cockup.

Initial blunder: Attention-seeking mad advice from scientists, combined with cowardice in the face of some risk and media, political and public pressure, and laziness from politicians and other scientists

Continued madness: Covering up the initial blunder, liking for easy power, various groups using the opportunity to push agendas, continued fear of being blamed for deaths

Are SAGE, Bill Gates, the WHO, big Pharma, big Tech, China, WEF all blameless saints who think of nothing but our own good? Of course not. Is some committee of these people sending orders to the PM – I doubt it.

I think my explanation for what has happened is entirely plausible.

As for the editors not mentioning the Great Reset, they may not buy it as a major factor or they may (IMO rightly) choose not to muddy the waters with anything that gives our enemies an easy route to attack us.

Unless the reasons mean we should change our approach to fighting the madness, they don’t matter right now. Best stick to core message.

And in a few years time when we wake up in the morning and realise that our lives have completely changed while this site is still arguing that the government is not following the science.

And if we all woke up tomorrow and realised that it was in fact all a big plan put into motion by the WEF and Bill Gates, what difference would it make? If Toby’s blog tomorrow was entirely focused on exposing the Great Reset, what difference would it make? How would that change the strategy? Would it just mean that we could all sit around congratulating ourselves for being clever enough to see through it? Would it in any way change the options available to us for countering and resisting the narrative? Are the tools available to us to resist a globalist takeover any different to the tools available to resist a government that has made disastrous decisions and is stuck doubling down on its own narrative? Is it, perhaps, the case that the only difference it would make is that it would make it easier for people to dismiss this site and discredit the position it takes?

I’ve said it before – believe whatever you like, I will do the same. Surely we have enough to worry about without getting frustrated with each other and with the authors and editors of the blog for not accepting our truth? And frankly, if it irritates you so much, go and read a different blog instead. I’m sure there are plenty out there that agree with you.

I think it helps if you understand the true motives of the people you are up against.
Reason and facts won’t win the day if you are up against someone with an agenda

But we’re using reason and facts on the general public. I don’t think many of us are trying to convince the PM we are right.

No, you’re quite wrong about the “helplessness” which is often used to dismiss us. There is no helplessness about it. There is agorism, and many of us have been working day and night to make sure we can exist outside of the system. This is exhausting, completely “stuck in” work going fully self-sustainable, and – quite frankly – it’s a public service that we take time out at all to try to get everyone else to do the same. THAT’S humanity.

Believe what you want, indeed, but please don’t make claims that there is some sort of helpless flailing around happening behind the scenes simply because you wish to not peak behind the curtain.

Edit: My first allegiance is to my own children and securing their future. My second is to everyone else’s children. I don’t give two shits about the sheep, but their children are blameless. The more people who get the message about Agenda 21, the more children we save.

Unfortunately, while lambs are appealing, they very quickly grow up to be sheep.

Where abouts are you? Would you be interested in having a like minded neighbour? I would be very interested in meeting with others to live on the land and try and save my children as well… my kids are very resistant to leaving the city and living on our own in the middle of nowhere! I have lived off grid quite a bit at various times in my life.

In my humble opinion, evidence-based arguments are key here: while there are plenty of concrete facts that can be adduced to demolish the various governments’ handling of the crisis, unfortunately there is as yet only circumstancial evidence for the plot to usher in a technocratic surveillance state under the guise of ‘fighting the virus’… Until some damning written evidence of collusion surfaces, or a credible whistleblower starts spilling the beans, what can you do on that front apart from always pointing to the same old ‘writing on the wall’, over and over again? The MSM-indoctrinated flock will never allow their reality to be shattered to pieces as long as they can avoid it…

We’re mainly refining arguments to use to persuade ordinary people this is all nonsense, the main and most compelling argument being that the cure is worse than the disease and that the government are making it up as they go along

Toby’s doing just fine. He is doing sterling work in exposing the narrative.

Thanks Toby!

PS – I don’t think its cock-uo eitehr.

cockup either.

Here, here… Toby is doing wonderful work!

We have seen what a great deaal of attention hydroxyychloroquine has received as a possible medication.

Why was hydroxychloroquine made ‘prescription only’ in France on January 13th 2020, after being available over the counter for more than 60 years?

i

I think perhaps some are recent converts and will therefore take longer to get there. It’s not an easy pill to swallow for sure. If everyone knew, it would stop for sure, because no one but the extraordinarily wealthy (1% of 1% of 1%) and utter morons could want that future.

How long do cock-ups, lying, ,saving face, arse covering, excuses and ignoring the data have to go on for before this becomes a conspiracy in the minds of most people?

This goes way beyond a virus at this point and while we all debate over the minutia of the virus itself such as CFR, IFR, infection (case(Positive PCR)) rates, false positives, hospitalisations, ventilator usage, where to wear retarded face nappies etc etc etc, the juggernaut of the NWO moves on, gaslighting the shit out of us.

I can only see that this is moving to a point where people become so tired, so desperate with their own situations, be it financial, psychological etc, that they will end up taking any and all Government handouts such as debt relief (and the subsequent relinquishment of private property a la UN Agenda 21/2030), UBI, vaccine, digital health passports just to ‘have a normal life’.

You have no idea how wrong I want to be about this but the trend towards the total enslavement of mankind has not been curtailed in my view. The biggest problem is that it appears that most men and women WANT their own enslavement because they don’t know that’s what it is.

I’ll leave two Aldous Huxley quotes here:

“The real hopeless victims of mental illness are to be found among those who appear to be most normal. “Many of them are normal because they are so well adjusted to our mode of existence, because their human voice has been silenced so early in their lives, that they do not even struggle or suffer or develop symptoms as the neurotic does.” They are normal not in what may be called the absolute sense of the word; they are normal only in relation to a profoundly abnormal society. Their perfect adjustment to that abnormal society is a measure of their mental sickness. These millions of abnormally normal people, living without fuss in a society to which, if they were fully human beings, they ought not to be adjusted.”

“A really efficient totalitarian state would be one in which the all-powerful executive of political bosses and their army of managers control a population of slaves who do not have to be coerced, because they love their servitude.”

Even if they find a vaccine, which is unlikely, our lives will never return to normal, they have no intention of allowing it to. People need to wake up and realise this! We’re being conned!

And to add to that, my own despair is that I cannot see a way out of this seeming inevitability. Short of creating communities that attempt to live off the land and become totally self sufficient (which people are attempting), I am so, so far away from being able to do that that I perceive I will end up reluctantly accepting all of the impending restrictions on my freedom. I can genuinely see how people are already giving up and committing suicide.

Why commit suicide? Go out and fight. At least you can take a couple of the bastards with you.

Be of good cheer. A certain Austrian gentleman not so long ago thought his empire would last 1000 years, and within 12 years it was in ruins. As the hymn puts it, ‘Pride of man and earthly glory…tower and temple, turn to dust’. Nothing in this mortal life is inevitable, nor lasts forever.

As I said to TyLean above, I think we should try and create communities which live off the land off grid. I have had some experience of this and its hard work, but possible. Much better in groups so long as people have their own space.

Guy, I totally agree with you. Although I do need to say that I don’t think it matters at the moment, what matters is that we resist and then start to fight back, not on the terms of the enemy (for that’s what they truly are) but on our terms for what is important to us. Cheers, Arnie.

I have resisted as much as I feel I am able to, even wasted a colossal amount of time writing to my MP several times and signing petitions. I have stuck leaflets/posters on walls and lamp posts in my local area and engaged vocally with anyone that will listen. I think most of my work colleagues think I’m crazy.

And I am yet to wear a retarded face nappy. I have worked in Pharmaceutical Manufacturing, Cleanroom Environmental Monitoring, Pharmaceutical Microbiology and Microbiology Culture Media Manufacturing, all in Quality Assurance and Quality Control roles, to know that face coverings DO NOT FU*KING WORK!!!!!!!

So now we have a really, really, really efficient totalitarian state.

I assume no mention of it so that this site doesn’t get taken down…

Amazingly some people are as yet giving the government the benefit of the doubt and still going with the cockup and incompetence theory. Understandable for a week or two but it was clear by early April that the whole Coronavirus fiasco was about much more than a mystery virus. Ask Bill vaccine tsar Gates he knows what the real agenda is.

From the roundup
‘Supermarket rationing did not prevent stockpiling’ which as Toby says was rather obvious at the time.
Note the scary blame words ‘panic buying’ and ‘hoarding’ have been given the Ministry of Truth treatment.

Seemed perfectly obvious at the time that if the government tells you to stay home for two weeks, possibly longer, the first thing you are going to do is get three weeks groceries in.
Added to which one third of food consumed is in restaurants, take aways, pubs hotels, canteens at work, universities and schools.
All that eating was replaced overnight by food bought from shops.

It’s still stupid and inconsiderate, though. But notice how there hasn’t been any panic buying recently, even though we are supposed to be going on another national lockdown next week

Nobody I know has been panic buying this time around because thankfully none of them have any intention of going along with a lockdown. The mood is changing. I live in a very upper middle class country village, normally very law abiding. They may not be very loud about it, but on the quiet they are voting with their feet and saying “enough”. Plenty of home delivery slots available, no panic.

Same

Same here. Lots of food, toilet paper and treats for Halloween too.

I think you’re right as well – people are less inclined to go along with a lockdown now especially as for many they won’t have any jobs to return to when furlough ends.

A second Lockdown will be treated very differently from the first.

Agree. I think people will find creative ways of going about it.

Similar effect to last time going on at the store where I work. Lot more empty spaces on the shelves, people buying that bit more than normal, with average size of the deliveries increasing again.

A certain optician sent an email to all its employers in the last few days telling them to stock up on food and other essentials. The employee then passed this advice on to their family.

No trouble getting an online delivery slot either. Had my usual monthly delivery yesterday with all items (with a couple of substitutes) delivered. Just checked and still delivery slots available with better availability a week out, per usual.

Perhaps the supermarkets have recognised that people are fed up of dealing with the shops and we’re in a semi-permanent switch to online supermarket shopping.

But hasn’t the food industry done a fantastic job, from manufacturing to retailing? While the middle classes hide behind the couch, the workers are out there in crap jobs, cold conditions, making your ready meals, cans of soup, beans, pasta, fish fingers, baking bread, keeping the supply chain going. The delivery drivers are out there getting the stuff to the stores so you don’t need to stockpile any more. The retailers are getting the stock on the shelves, always open, ready for your custom. The food industry is the unsung hero of this whole shambles. Protect the NHS? If the food industry falters, the country will collapse within days.

And with none of us getting ill either. And considering how many pickers were in the shop at the height of covid, social distancing was impossible.

The problem for producers was that they could not convert their distribution from commercial outlets to retail/domestic overnight.
They have now largely done so.

That is one heartening aspect of this sorry mess. When Lockdown was first announced, I wasn’t really scared of the Covids, but of the public’s reaction to it, and I genuinely expected food shortages and rioting/looting etc. The army was also superb in building the Potemkin hospitals, shame they were just for show, but at least it shows we can build that sort of thing quickly if required.

Supermarkets are the real winners, I wonder if they’re donating lots of money to the government.

From a good friend who has a senior role in supermarket distribution logistics – there wasn’t really any panic buying. If you think about the main items that ran out (1. loo roll, 2. bread, 3. milk).
They have a really high turnover in the store because everyone buys them. They’re also really bulky so have to be replenished several times a day. As soon as they don’t do that in time it looks like they’ve sold out when they haven’t.
People naturally then buy extra if they can because they’re busy working families who can’t function without these items and don’t have the opportunity to drive around all week looking for them. Cupboards of loo roll (or freezers of food staples) don’t really have any negatives because we all they’ll get used eventually.
Anyway, my point is that it’s a supply side problem in the first place that then triggers a demand problem.

There was definitely some panic buying. Some customers buying multiple crates worth of milk and bread.

No idea if this is connected, but I’ll mention here that on Monday our university bus service was suddenly cut from half-hourly to hourly. The timetable was also changed. No announcement, nothing on the website. I use this daily to get to my allotment and I wasn’t the only one caught unawares from what I’ve overheard.

Is this preparation for the Great Half Term Lockdown, or simply the bus company and the university realising that there are far fewer students using the bus?

Probably the latter, I drove through the local campus today, it was as deserted as during the summer vacation.

The John Snow thing is additionally funny because, while he rejected the miasma theory for cholera, it is that very same nonsense that drives the push for masks.

Very good point Ryan.
btw, very late yesterday you remarked how much of the Western USA has become Federal property. I replied that it is covered in the feature ‘Endgame’ that I had posted about an hour or so previously.
When I first saw that many years ago I thought it all rubbish but parts of it are starting to make sense (it also warned about Bill Gates 13 years ago).

I thought that, way back at the beginning of the bollox, when parks were closed so that people couldn’t go there and breathe at each other.
One nineteenth-century doctor was so convinced that cholera germs were not water-borne that to refute the idea, he publicly drank a glass if water deliberately contaminated with the ‘eliminations’ of a cholera sufferer. The doctor died of cholera. His colleagues ignored the warning.
For literally millennia, up to the mid nineteenth century, medical orthodoxy remained wedded to completely false theories that resulted in almost every medical intervention making matters worse.Now the cretins are at it again.

PS.

“Conventional treatment consisted of enemas, castor oil , calomel (mercurous chloride; a purgative), gastric washing, venesection (bloodletting), opium, brandy, and plugging of the anus to prevent fluid from escaping. Mortality due to cholera remained high throughout the 19th century.” (Wimipedia)

Looks like SAGE and the WHO were ar work even thrn.

Don’t forget the leeches

Certainly not, though I’m. told that medicinal leeches do have their uses. Unlike the ones in government.

I’m fully expecting a page on blood letting to appear on Wikipedia, backed by the WHO

Some alternative practitioners approve of blood-letting. So unlikely to be WHO backed.

I’d take opium & brandy (no need for plugging of the anus, given sufficient opium) over their crappy vaccines any day …

The Ghost Map is a brilliant book about John Snow for anyone who’s interested in epidemiology.

People will sit in their houses and starve themselves to death until the dictator tells them not to (which won’t be anytime soon)

If people are that stupid, good riddance. A welcome bit of positive Darwinism.

Good. Let them.

Connecting the Dots: The Great Reset & The Fourth Industrial Revolution
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O31AfWoBfaI

So, SAGE should be disbanded and reconstituted. Who will reconstitute SAGE? Who will decide who the members should be? At present, the committee membership is decided by the Government Chief Scientific Adviser, Sir Patrick Vallance.

I would suggest the real problem is that there is no such thing as “the science” for the Government to follow, and we do not have the breadth and depth of expertise in the Civil Service to give the Government balanced and considered advice. What we have is one man who calls upon a group of outside ‘experts’ of his choosing, to push an argument that he considers is in the best interests of his own legacy and reputation.

Yes, SAGE should be disbanded. But the manner of its reconstitution must be a matter of careful consideration.

Aldous Huxley warned that a future dictatorship would be driven by medics and scientists, for our own good, but that’s the problem with dictatorships, they tend to be self-selecting.

It seems the Science can be anything you want it to be, like a hooker!

If you pay it enough.

Science can certainly prostitute itself, very like a hooker.

Why reconstitute it? Do we need it? Why do we need it? And if it were to be agreed to be reconstituted then not one person, not one, should be allowed to the new body, if he or she were present on the old. Start with a completely new set of staff. Unlike Public Health England or whatever the group is called.

“ PARIS (Reuters) – Police raided the homes and offices of France’s health minister, its public health director and former prime minister on Thursday as a judicial investigation into the government’s response to the coronavirus crisis deepened.”

Sounds promising!

”… which aims to establish whether those in charge at the outset of the outbreak showed a “lack of will to fight a disaster”

Sigh

If there had been less will to ‘fight’ the ‘disaster’, there would have been no disaster.

BTW, what were the police looking for?

I wondered that too? What could they have been keeping indoors that might be of use??

Probably high-grade government-only drugs.

It just gets scarier and scarier.

This is really becoming a reign of terror.

I’m highly sceptical of the government’s Covid approach and think the threat posed by the virus is overblown.

I think much of the current approach is rooted in an attempt to justify inept policy that’s in itself caused tens of thousands of early deaths.

HOWEVER… I’ve lost some faith in this website.

It keeps telling me things that turn out to be wrong, and then doesn’t acknowledge its errors.

‘Case increase isn’t reflecting increased levels of Covid, as there’s no associated hospitalisation and death’ [Hospitalisation and death increase]

‘The Spanish autumn increase in Covid peaked on September 17th’ [Still going strong]

‘The false positive rate is around 1%’ [Actual positive rate massively below 1% across the vast majority of testing for the last few months]

Reading back through a few posts there are loads of examples of incorrect predictions.

Which isn’t the end of the world; it’s still an excellent resource with a strong argument. I just think it’d be a stronger one if it was a bit more measured and acknowledged errors.

What do people on here think we should actually do about Covid? Nothing? Tbh I could probably go along with that, but the argument would have to be presented with an acknowledgment that doing nothing would probably result in a fair bit more Covid death. Exactly how much is debatable but it would almost certainly be less overall death than if we continue to try & suppress it.

I’m a fan of GB focused protection, but what would that actually look like? Eg would we stop people visiting care homes, which is absolutely inhumane? If not there’s no focused protection.
There’s difficult conversations to be had.

I think SAGE are a waste of time, and we should stop myopically focusing on Covid – it’s one risk among many, and an overblown one at that – but it does exist and does in my opinion does require some sort of strategy to mitigate its harm – doesn’t it?

‘The false positive rate is around 1%’ [Actual positive rate massively below 1% across the vast majority of testing for the last few months]

I believe you’re wrong there. I think what you’re doing is interpreting the ‘N per hundred thousand of the population’ figure as being the percentage of positive tests. (That would be the sensible way of doing it if the tests were random). This figure is often way below 1%.

But I think that what actually happens is that they do some testing in Bolton or wherever that returns, say, 100 positive tests. They then use that as the numerator, and the whole population of Bolton as the denominator. In fact, it is perfectly compatible with there being 1% false positives, and the government themselves found the median false positive rate to be 2.3% in June.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/895843/S0519_Impact_of_false_positives_and_negatives.pdf

Ironically, the way they do it seems to downplay the absolute incidence of the disease, but the advantage for the government is that the fixed denominator allows them to modulate the trends as they see fit by modulating the amount of testing. The government’s fear strategy is based on trends, not (supposed) absolute prevalence of the virus.

Most certainly we must acknowledge errors. You are pointing them out. That is a vital contribution.
We have loads of theories on the go. Some I wholly disbelieve. But I do want them aired and debated. Tunnel vision is the sin of our enemies.
As for strategies to mitigate harm – the G, B. Declaration points the way. And you do have to balance Covid harm against lockdown harm.

Thanks

This seems like a bit of a troll post. For example, you say that if visits to nursing homes aren’t stopped then there’s no focused protection. This is ridiculous. There are many things you can do besides stopping visitors, such as screening visitors, testing staff and separating sick residents. Then there is protection of vulnerable people living in their own homes, which is an entirely different question.

If you think polite questions are trolling you might be a bit of a snowflake! Maybe I should’ve phrased the GB bit more clearly – I suppose I was just saying that even that response would come at some cost, but the details of how we would deal with care homes are open to discussion, I agree.

and does in my opinion does require some sort of strategy to mitigate its harm

This is more like snowflakery.

Sorry Jon, but with the greatest of respects, I would wholeheartedly disagree with this. This website has been a saviour for me, a platform to share views with like minded individuals, and to experience the realisation that you are not alone in critical thinking. Toby has been instrumental in pushing this, and the very fact he is still asked for views in numerous media shows there is still a place for this.

Corrections are more for a newspaper, where essentially it is found that outright lying has taken places. Inaccuracies here are likely less common than that in MSM which you should remember, and it is extremely difficult to keep up with an ever fluid situation.

Stay strong, and be thankful you have a sanctuary away from biased media!

Fair enough

Well, I think the fundamental sceptic case that most here subscribe to is that the bar for the kind of interventions we have seen is set far too low.

On any rational basis, if you do a cost benefit analysis the cost side is orders of magnitude higher than the benefit, assuming of course there is any benefit to the interventions, which is highly questionable.

As for incorrect predictions or statements, that’s inevitable. But in general those predictions and statements are attempts to sell our case without having to resort to the argument that is at once the best and the hardest to sell, which is that governments cannot stop viruses (nothing can) and we have to carry on as best we can. It’s easier to sell the case that the “pandemic” is over. It may not be over in the sense that no-one will ever die of covid again, but it is probably over in the sense that the kind of spike of deaths in April and May probably won’t be repeated and we will have seasonal fluctuations in line with other respiratory conditions.

Mitigation is along the lines of protecting those who are unable to protect themselves (i.e. dementia sufferers in care homes who cannot make their own decisions) and advising people of the risks so they can make their own decisions, and making sure you have critical care capacity as best you can (without turning the NHS into a National Covid Service) and encouraging research into the best treatments (and possibly vaccines, though it’s complicated) and preventative advice.

Thanks

What do people on here think we should actually do about Covid – there is nothing we can do. The virus has a 99.9% survival rate so as like all other years we get on with our lives.

In 6 months I haven’t met anyone or bumped into anyone who looks remotely on deaths door all I see are frightened depressed people.

As a responsible human being and member of society if I feel sick I stay indoors and keep my distance. I don’t need to be told to do it.

We are tying ourself up in knots working out IFR’s, false positive rates, PCR cycles and data. It’s all an illusion, mother nature is a bitch.

I’ve got more chance of being run over by a bus.

Fuck them all, ruining our lives over the flu, it killed approximately 60k people in 2018.

I don’t think we should be doing anything other than taking responsibility for our own health. The government can advise but that’s as far as it should go. There has been no Covid in our household, nor in our extended family or friends. So as far as I am concerned this is an overhyped scaremongering agenda from our government who is deliberately harming our lives. They should be brought to book for this in Court!

I’ve got more chance of being run over by a bus.

You’ve got more chance of being run over by a pink bus with ‘Johnson is a cunt’ on the side.

One just went by. I dodged it.

The only realistic endpoint is herd immunity. We know pretty much who is vulnerable and who is not. All the government needs to do is offer protection to anyone who is vulnerable (isolate care homes, have food deliveries for the elderly etc…) and leave everyone else to crack on. Note that this should not infringe on personal freedom – anyone, regardless of how vulnerable they are, should be free to make their own decisions and ignore government advice. In 2-3 months max we’d be through this thing and probably less would die in the long term than are going to die by letting this virus hang around indefinitely.

Stop taking the bait folks. This from TE and his minions at the 77th

They have obviously run out of panties to sniff

So that’s the real reason for face nappies!

I literally don’t know what you’re referring to!! Maybe I should, but whatever it is I assure you I’m not part of it!
I’m a lockdown sceptic and fairly regular poster on here, generally to support lockdown scepticism.
Genuine question: is there a possibility you see conspiracy in more places than it actually exists?

Nah. Your post got flack for being about some virus or other.

The issues now include dictatorship, human freedom, and the way ahead.

Covid is a bigger scam than Climate change. How they must be laughing at us!

And yet how funny it is that not all of us believe that climate change is a scam. I do think that the covid reaction has been blown out of all proportion to the risk.

Like 5G, Bill Gates, etc. etc. etc., I think there are more immediately relevant things to discuss than climate change.

There are a few of us here who regularly set out what we think the government should do:

This is a short summary, without links to evidence (which I can provide) that I posted on here a couple of days ago and then sent to Sir John Redwood MP:

‘….emulate those countries who have done better both in terms of health and economic outcomes than we have, for example: Japan and Sweden.

Sweden had some problems with care home mortality, but Japan has protected their elderly and infirm.

We can do the same: frequent hand washing, high standards of hygiene, restricted access, disciplined movement/human interactions by care home workers and voluntary BCG vaccination for those healthcare workers/elderly/vulnerable who have not been so vaccinated.’

And turn off the news!

Thanks

Thanks for all your replies – some food for thought.

Just to be clear (if I wasn’t in my original post), I’m absolutely a sceptic of the reaction to Covid; I think it’s hysterical and ridiculous.

I was just wondering what some of you would suggest as an alternative response (and I don’t think there necessarily needs to be agreement between you/us on the detail).

Again to be clear, I think I’d be fairly comfortable with the response consisting of not much at all.

My one concern about this site is that it’s becoming a bit of a religion and not really conducive to critical thought or debate, but most of your responses have allayed my fears in that direction.

I have some sympathy for you, because we were all thinking back in the summer that there would be no “second wave” and yet in many countries, including here, the hospital, ICU and death rates have been rising. I must admit my heart sinks when I look at those rising figures. BUT what I would say to you is:
1) Like other respiratory illnesses, they increase at this time of year and hospitalisations and some deaths are inevitable;
2) There are problems with the accuracy of the data – both in hospital admissions and deaths – while it is almost certainly true that there have been increases (see 1) above), many of the deaths and hospital admissions are attributed to Covid when they should not be (ie only a positive, possibly false positive test, when a person is in hospital for another condition altogether, even a brief visit to A&E – these things have all been identified by medical practitioners on this site);
and 3) there needs to be a sense of perspective – look at the graphs such as https://euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps and many others, and you will see that there is no real cause for alarm, compared to the incidence of all respiratory illnesses.
Then lastly, 4) Look at the damage these lockdowns are causing – no shortage of material here and also in certain newspapers! Look at who is being temporarily “saved” compared to those whose lives are being cut short by decades, not to mention their livelihoods and life opportunities being lost.

Thanks – that all seems eminently reasonable. My sense too is that the current increase in infection will be commensurate to seasonal flu, etc.

Eg if 100/day die for the next 3 months that’ll be 9k, which is well within the flu range. But no doubt it’ll be presented as a health catastrophe!

And we’d have to assume those deaths are from the same population that succumb to flu, so there’ll be a big overlap there, rather than simply 9k more deaths than most years.

Re the costs of the response, clearly they are and will increasingly be massive, mainly amongst the poorest. I think we’d all agree the western response could be called morally outrageous.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

Focused protection in the context of choice – allowing visitors to care homes if that is the wish of the individual

Surely there is no need for green band and red band, simply signal you are a red band type by wearing a mask. If you have one on and I don’t we can stay away from each other. Occam’s razor and all that.

Not everyone wants to wear a mask. Even those who wish to “shield” may be aware that a mask isn’t going to help or they just might not want to wear one.

I’m convinced that most people in my part of the world don’t want the foul things, but they dread the consequences if they don’t conform. Almost nobody knows there are exemptions, and the Welsh government have made it very hard to find out.

Exemptions are theoretical, not practical. Even if a shop observes the law regarding exemptions, members of the public won’t. And even if you’re legally in the right, who wants to have a public argument with a policeman or, even worse, a tinpot ‘Covid marshal’?

So the anxious person will be more anxious than ever if they don’t wear the mask. Result: people put the masks on, or they stay at home.

Masks are the biggest of the daily life issues for me. I am not medically exempt, but I don’t want to wear one because of how it makes me feel. Even worse though is how it makes me feel to be in a place where everyone else is wearing them. Even if I am feeling up to not wearing one myself, the anxiety I feel being in a shop is still too great. So I don’t go at all now. I don’t go anywhere.

CGL you are close to Two-Six I think? Maybe meet up and team up? I too was really anxious but now think nothing of it. I have the answers ready if confronted but had no issues at all.

You don’t need to be “medically exempt”. If wearing a mask causes you distress you can simply declare yourself exempt.

CGL – see LaworFiction website – Low Mood.
or a German Doctor (Griese, I think, who says lack of oxygen will cause early dementia).
You are medically exempt.

Boris must have seriously lacked oxygen at some stage.

With the effects you describe, surely you are exempt. Remember, no one can demand that you disclose your medical condition.

Carry the government list of exemptions.

Leaflet the ignorant with list of exemptions.

If they choose to nappy themselves and I don’t, most certainly I want to stay away from them and vice versa!

Yeah, I get what they’re trying to do, but I strongly dislike the red band green band thing.

Agree. Having looked at their website I can’t really see how red/green band is any better than the status quo

It’s really that simple. When I was in Japan, pre SARS, I don’t remember seeing anyone with face masks. I think this idea that it’s a cultural thing there is a little bit of BS. It seems that since that time there’s been an increase in people wearing them, but not everyone.

I’ve never really understood this either. There seems to be a misconception that everyone in East Asia was walking around in face masks prior to COVID. Sure, there were more of them in some parts than you would have seen in Europe, but I wouldn’t even have said it was a majority. I often wonder if people who believe this misconception have been to Asia.

I keep hearing that everybody in Asia wears face masks all the time and they have done for a long time. Obviously it’s bollocks but almost everybody thinks this. It’s racism and lazy cultural stereotyping at work and it’s being pushed hard by the usual suspects.

Absolutely.

Agree that assumption isn’t true. OK there’s a minority who wear them in Japan but its nothing to do with health and everything to do with the fact that they possibly have certain mental health issues, something that’s not lost on psychologists and psychiatrists.

You really must ring up the journalist Tor Ching Li in Tokyo who wrote this article and tell him he is hallucinating.:
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/mask-appeal
It looks like they must have spent a lot of time faking up pictures as well!!

Note: I am not saying masks work to prevent virus transmission.
The evidence is fairly conclusive that at best they do nothing and at worst they increase viral load.
Otherwise Japan would not have a higher seasonal flu incidence than the USA or Europe:
https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/influenza-pneumonia/by-country/

I seem to remember them being worn in London during pea-soupers and they probably helped a little with the particulate matter.

The bands were mentioned on here before and I looked at the website and wrote a scathing comment yo the owner comparing them to yellow stars. He wrote back explaining, and I wanted to reply, once I calmed down. Haven’t replied yet. I still think they are stupid. They are rubber wrist bands. With winter coming up, and people wearing coats and gloves, how are you supposed to see them? How many people will be aware what they stand for?

Perhaps the Zealots and Marshals could wear Red and Black armbands – then we will know who to avoid.

I agree that there’s no need for green bands but by suggesting that the shielders wear masks aren’t we acknowledging that they work?! I honestly believe they cause more harm than good.

I admit to not really giving it much thought before March but the shielding population already live with their situation. We know we shouldn’t expose newborns to too much before they’ve been vaccinated, we know we should stay away from the elderly if we have cold/flu. We know we should cover our mouths if we cough/sneeze and that we should wash our hands! We know we’re at higher risk of premature death if we’re obese and that type II diabetes etc aren’t good for us. People with hiv know to try to avoid co-infections. This is nothing new! I do feel really sad for people with cancer/transplants etc but covid is not the first time their Dr will have told them that they need to shield is it? Surely they and their families were already shielding to an extent all the time against flu and the myriad of other viruses/bacteria that could kill them?
The ones that are confusing it are the Covidians who have become paralysed by fear to be able to sensibly assess the risks to them. They’re the ones who need the red bands.

I can’t wear a mask (not that I want to) I don’t believe in lockdowns , but I do mostly distance and limit where I go to. I believe we should all choose for ourselves, so I’d put myself in an “Amber” category!

That’s your choice and it’s absolutely fine.
Don’t forget to keep your grin with you!

Didn’t see this comment piece from Sherelle Jacobs referenced in the blog, but well worth a read

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/10/15/lockdown-sceptics-world-must-unite-new-manifesto/

Great feature today, why can’t the maniacs ruining the country read this to get some perspective? You would think the senior members of the tories would realise they have shot the next election and do something to stop the buffoon and hapless.

The way things are panning out there won’t be any more elections.

Lockdown every school holiday until the virus has disappeared, I’ve got a better idea:STAND ON YOUR HEAD FOR 30 MINUTES EVERY OTHER THURSDAY

Haha. I always call it the ‘rain dance’ measures.

I’ve got a better idea:STAND ON YOUR HEAD FOR 30 MINUTES EVERY OTHER THURSDAY

I assume you made that comment in jest, but I honestly believe the majority of the population would do it, if Twat Hancock announced it as necessary to “Keep the Virus under control”…

PARADOGMA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrJR1Xz-WV4

I was listening to a bit of Boris Johnson’s conference speech – the section on not going back to normal -and it struck me that the ‘agenda’ is in plain sight. When did we, as a society, decide not to return to normal? How is this an ’emergency powers’ kind of decision? The arrogance of the government is astounding! We have become so used to them telling us what do in the ’emergency’ that we are mute when they unilaterally decree the entire future direction of our society and economy.

This is in the open, now. By interpreting the virus and lockdowns in a positive, not neutral, light (as Boris was undoubtedly doing with evangelical zeal), this should surely cast doubt on the government’s entire strategy. They are not just getting us through this emergency, but have other motives, now out in the open. Why is parliament putting up with it? (A rhetorical question…)

No, we didn’t. But it looks as if the WEF did, many years ago.

This is part of his conference speech:

But after all we have been through it isn’t enough just to go back to normal. We have lost too much. We have mourned too many.

We have been through too much frustration and hardship just to settle for the status quo ante – to think that life can go on as it was before the plague; and it will not. Because history teaches us that events of this magnitude – wars, famines, plagues; events that affect the vast bulk of humanity, as this virus has – they do not just come and go.

They are more often than not the trigger for an acceleration of social and economic change, because we human beings will not simply content ourselves with a repair job.

We see these moments as the time to learn and to improve on the world that went before.

That is why this government will build back better.

Yes, a masterclass in non sequitur and false logic.

Priti Patel announced this was the New Normal back in March.

With twenty-five million GP appointments not having taken place this year, according to the Telegraph, we must spare a thought for the poor dears locked in their fortress surgeries, assiduously Zooming and WhatsApping their surviving patients.

A substantial pay rise would appear to be in order, from the Government Trough.

The cowardice and duplicity of the GP’s ‘s has been staggering

We now know that they never did give a shit about patients

I think this varies considerably from one part of the country to another. Here, in Buckingham, we do not seem to have had any problems; well that is my strong impression. I do know that the situation is much worse elsewhere. Why this is I have no idea.

Please don’t tar all of my GP colleagues with the same brush. In the practices where I’m working they are seeing patients face to face. Also GP practice salaries are not paid from government, nurses working there are not on NHS salary scales.

Then if you are doing that I apologise to you.

Unfortunately you are in a minority

Tip for the day. Get a haircut while you still can…

Or buy some hair clippers

Bought haircutting scissors over at Amazon and have been doing my own since.

Will never set foot in a hairdresser again.

Think a buzz cut makes my ears stick out too much!!

I look like a female Moe Howard but I don’t care anymore. I don’t want to legitimise this insanity so apologies to the hairdressers who will and have gone bust.

Me too. Great investment.

Good point. I’ll better give her a ring today!

This is a problem for me as I haven’t been since mandatory muzzles were introduced for customers. Though I don’t wear a mask anywhere else, I’m not comfortable with sitting in a barbers with a load of mask-zealots glaring at me. I’m toying with the idea of just shaving it all off as there’s not a great deal of incentive to worry about how I look at the moment.

I haven’t had a hair cut since Feb and it’s now shoulder length. I’m looking more like Gandalf (sans beard) every day, not bad for a sixty something. My ‘partner’ doesn’t like it but that’s ok, I don’t like her, so it balances out.

The most important figure is the number of covid patients in hospital (because more likely to be correct diagnosis) and how quickly this is increasing. The numbers on ventilation and hospital deaths follows the same pattern. The 7 day average. rate was doubling every 7 days around 23 September but started to fall before the new lockdown measures although no doubt this will be presented as evidence of lockdown working. Has fallen consistently since that day and is now out to doubling every 14 days. I don’t understand why no one looks at the simple maths. In March the doubling high point was every 3 days. Totally different gradient.

The most important figure is the number of covid patients in hospital (because more likely to be correct diagnosis)

No! You need to see this from yesterday’s LS:
https://lockdownsceptics.org/2020/10/15/#how-many-hospital-cases-are-really-covid

Regarding hospitalisations as a reliable figure ignores, for example, the resumption of the NHS as a health service rather than when it was emptied out in March. If the absolute number of people being treated in hospital doubles, then the absolute number of apparent Covid ‘hospitalisations’ doubles (all else being equal, false positives, etc.), but it does not indicate that the prevalence of the disease has doubled. To do that would require some sort of normalisation of the calculation, not just the absolute number of ‘cases’. But details like this are lost in the mists of confusion.

These Lockdowns are predicated on saving the NHS from being overwhelmed. Yesterday NHS England announced there are 4379 Covid patients in English hospitals. NHS England has a budget of £129 billion & employs over 1 million staff.

If the NHS cannot handle 4379 covid patients without being overwhelmed when it has all that money & all those staff then something is seriously wrong.
They are scaring the public with talk of the NHS being overwhelmed when the evidence is that the NHS is a long way from being overwhelmed and has the resources and staff to deal with far more covid cases, it needs to get organised and try a bit of effective management.
To the credit of the NHS they are now much better at treating Covid disease, people are getting better and being discharged, any talk of admission numbers should be matched by a reference to discharge numbers

Has every one in here forgotten that Delingpole told us lockdown was pencilled in for the end of October.Everything else is manipulation of the figures to suit that agenda.

There were a few dates that were banded about around 2 months ago. One was certainly the 12th October, but most pointed to the mid term break for schools.

It’s scary how this is just dripped out. Definitely looks like stage management over incompetent reactionary policies as infections rise.

That’s why you need to look at numbers in hospital as it takes account of admissions and discharges. Despite what Barney says hospitals are not at full capacity due to social distancing measures. There is an upward trend but the point I was trying to make was that this is not exponential and the rate of rise is falling and has been falling since 23rd Sept, before any new measures were taken. Here are the 7 days averages compared to the previous average as a multiplier of that previous average. i.e. less than 1 means total cases are falling. 2 would mean cases are doubling. 31st March (worst day) 7 day average against week ago = 3.61 (i.e. more than tripling). Falls to 0.74 by 8th July, hovers around 0.77 for rest of July then begins to rise from end of July. Peaks at 1.67 on 19th September then starts to fall again, currently at 1.44.

You’re forgetting that patients are now routinely tested for Covid on entry to hospital. Plenty of the “covid patients in hospital” can be people who tested positive but are entirely asymptomatic (or even just a false positive) and who were hospitalized for a completely unrelated condition.

But I have also looked at those on a ventilator who clearly are not asymptomatic. Follows a similar profile.

The Great Barrrington Declaration has been accused of being Politically motivated.

A quick look over the main signatorys of the John Snow Memorandum and I see a lot of Public Health Professors and members of SAGE.

What is a Public Health Professor ?.

An advert for a Professor in Global Public Health at University of Bath, States the areas of research include but are not restricted to poverty, inequality and health; public health, ethics and social justice; public health and social welfare; the governance and/or financing of global public health; population health and healthcare reforms; social, behavioural, commercial and structural determinants of health and disease; demography, life course and health; public health challenges in complex environments such as conflict or humanitarian settings, global public health policy analysis.

Sounds like a job for a Champagne socialist .

I picked one signatory at random. Prof. Rochelle P. Walensky , Chief of the Division of Infectious Diseases, Massachusetts General Hospital, Professor of Medicine, Harvard Medical School, USA. Looking at her Twitter feed, I find a thoroughly devoted member of the church of covid. Have a look yourself. https://twitter.com/rwalensky?lang=en

Trish Greenlaugh and Devri Sidhar also authors. It’s almost worthy of going into the Woke Gobbledegook section. I loved the rebuttals in today’s LS article for everything they’ve said.

I think they’ve now only amplified the GBD even further. Sure, the JSM gives the zealots there stock pro lockdown arguments on a plate, but they are weak. Very weak. And, as reality bites on this document there will be holes a plenty.

I think the authors have essentially signed their own resignation letter. I just can’t see how they get out of the corner they’ve painted themselves into.

The areas of research include but are not restricted to:

They missed out Climate Change, which is odd considering it has been blamed for many of the things listed…

Hypothesis vulnerable people are not being told to shield at home is because someone may have pointed out that to do so could be seen as a Deprivation of Liberty. This could lead to a referral to the courts for every single person in that position.

So the original universal incarceration was not a deprivation of liberty? You could have fooled me.

I think the point is that it’s not discriminatory if we all have to to it! Easy to get round of course by just giving intelligent adults the facts and some advice and let people isolate if they wish to but we have all been infantilised by the government.

Actually it was and I think that there was a statement made recently that it was advice and not mandatory, although it came over as mandatory.

just listening to JHB on Talk radio.
In succession she interviewed Stephen Timms (Labour) and Bernard Jenkin (conservative). c7.00 – 7.15
JHB did her usual of quoting stats to support the assertion that covid was currently a minor issue. It was scary how both MPs were metaphorically putting their fingers in their ears and going “Lalalalalala cant hear you. !!!” Timms kept repeating that infections are rising.. Jenkin kept repeating Sage are wonderful

With morons like this on both sides of the house .. we are doooomed dooomed

No,they just reveal themselves as morons.

Only to us and those like us – ‘the others’ won’t ever hear the indomitable JHB

Timms came across as a bit simple. They should know by now to at least have a sheet of paper with the numbers written down and not be told them by Julia.
Jenkins, I wouldn’t classify as a moron, he was very calculated.

Yes I was listening as well and sent her a tweet to say well done, the politicians were hollow men, I think they really saw the argument she presented but had calculated that the public were still scared so they had to support the lock-down to ensure they get the votes next time round. Mrs Thatcher would have laid the lot of them flat with her handbag, eaten them for breakfast and with her scientific background led the country back to sanity.

Oh to have a Margaret Thatcher type politician once again!

I agree and I hated her back in the day as a young trade union man ,but if nothing else she had courage and would never stand for the likes of Boris and Hancock in her cabinet this nonsense wouldn’t of even got off the ground….mind you i probably wouldn’t of agreed with her back then but would now,shows what 40 years experience does for you

>>>>(they have) calculated that the public were still scared so they (have) to support the lock-down <<<

This is a good analysis.

A three month lock-down, all this mask wearing – the public have invested a strong belief in the virus being a terrifying threat to human existence.

Accepting they could have been misled is too disturbing to contemplate.

‘Politicians’ aren’t necessarily intelligent beings.

‘Politicians’ aren’t intelligent beings

There fixed it for you

She then had Andrew Bridgen MP on. Just the same. She trotted out all the best stats on IFR, FPR, hospitalisations. To every one he gave an answer starting “Yes, but …”

JHB was reduced to laughing at him at one point, and he sort of laughed back. It was quite telling. He knows it’s all bollocks, but he *has* to go out and defend it.

Bridgen is the dufus who thinks the Good Friday Agreement means he can get an Irish passport

Both those individuals are inept on every subject. Other than Robert Halfen, Jenkin is as obvious a business bought patsy as any Tory MP. Most are bought by big business and they are doing very nicely out of CCP Virus.

Bernard Jenkins anecdote for anyone who cares…

In a local pub years ago and a guy walks in and announces to the pub ” I’m Bernard Jenkins, your local candidate and am here to answer your questions”.
After a brief WTF moment, everyone in the pub carries on talking. He stands at the bar for 10 minutes, without ordering a drink and then after 10 minutes sheepishly leaves.
The pub erupts into laughter.

But they still voted for him!

My first pool swim for 7 months yesterday, as it’s getting too rough for the sea.

Few trivial rules, which don’t matter much (and certainly have no effect on covid spread). Even allowed to do butterfly!

But they do take your temperature with one of those zap things which they point at your forehead. I was 36 oC – so I joked that I needed to warm up. The lady doing it said she was sure it was under-reading, and that she’d had people down at 33 oC. I said did you call an ambulance? She laughed, and said that at 33 oC you’d be dead.

So many people realise by now that this is all bollocks. What will it take for everyone to come out, leaving the whole pile of garbage to collapse?

Just a bit of time. Maybe quite a bit.
Have patience, have hope, spread the word, denounce the lies, never give in.

As Mr Hitchens says, ‘stay angry, stay patient’.

Why bother, just write down random numbers in the normal range.

Yes, may as well – like if your were actually running a temperature you’d feel like going swimming???

You are lucky that you have a pool open the 3 indoor pools in our area (Torridge Devon) are still closed, just one of the many things that have been knocked on the head by lock-downs. I have been swimming outdoors at Chagford Dartmoor but that pool is now closed for the winter. I think that around the country many pools have failed to re-open, very sad.

Of three pools the TJN family used to use, only one has re-opened so far, and that one isn’t suitable for children.

Was asked if I’d “scanned in” at a cafe yesterday. Said yes, I hadn’t, no one checked. Everyone happy.

Every little bit of rebellion, every bit of subversion, does its work and undermines the whole.

Wot!!—-no mask?!

‘WHERE’S YOUR MASK?’ said an irate, masked customer to me in Booths supermarket—Ilkley a few days ago. ‘It’s none of your business’ I replied in a calm but forthright manner (whilst mentally wrestling with my ‘fight or flight’ response which had been well and truly triggered.) ‘It IS my business….you might infect me’ he responded as he inched closer with bulging eyes protruding over his black mask (why do black masks always look so much more sinister?). It later struck me that someone who was genuinely frightened of catching something would steer well clear but there’s no rhyme or reason with these fully committed brain washed types.

After seven months of mask non compliance I had mentally rehearsed my response to an ‘assault’ of this nature. ‘If you’re unhappy with my appearance just wait here….please do not move whilst I get the duty manager’. At this, his glaring stare turned to a look of confusion and doubt as he clearly did not anticipate anything like this. And as for me?….up to now, so far so good. My adrenalin had pumped and I longed to either punch him in his ugly face (in the style of Muhammad Ali) or run like hell (with my best imitation of Usain Bolt), but I managed to stick to my mental plan. I contacted the store manager through a nearby assistant and explained the situation to her. Her response was wonderful to behold. I didn’t really get a chance to explain the law, the fines for this kind of discrimination and the duty of care that shops have to ALL their customers because she knew it already. She apologised profusely to me, as did the assistant who I first contacted. ‘Where is he, I’ll go and talk to him’. By this time the masked bandit (as I shall call him) had scarpered from where I left him and was now at the fresh fish counter. ‘He’s over there, that’s him’ I gestured and longed to add ‘make sure you give him a good battering’……….but I didn’t.

Off she went, bent on a mission, and from what I could see gave him a thorough talking to. It was what happened next that surprised and, I must say, delighted me. The masked bandit comes over and says, and these are more or less his exact words, ‘I’m so sorry for my outburst before—I apologise’. And I could see by his eyes that he meant it. ‘I accept your apology but now, perhaps, you’ll be more understanding of other shoppers who might not be wearing masks’. ‘I apologise I’m sorry’ he repeated, and these were his last words as we parted company.

I know from reading this site that masks are one of the biggest bugbears that we sceptics have to deal with. They are an ongoing sign that society has changed beyond all recognition. Seeing the vast majority of people sporting these face coverings, and appearing to us as if we have been taken over by some alien species, is a challenge that none of us would have thought possible just a few months ago.
My experience over the last seven months, in supermarkets and other shops, has led me to the following conclusions. I list them here in the sincere wish that they might help those who find it just as difficult as I do in dealing with this unnatural manifestation of mindless behaviour foisted on us by a criminal government of occupation.

* All large supermarkets are now well aware of the law regarding face masks.

* The last thing they want are scenes and confrontations between customers.

* The law is on your side if you don’t wear a mask and state you are exempt (no further explanation necessary).

* If you are accosted or challenged by other customers stand your ground but control your emotions (even when you feel the blood boiling in your veins!)

* Don’t get drawn into defensive arguments and slinging insults. It may give vent to your feelings at the time but aggressive or frightened people will up the anti.

* Always get a person in authority to intervene. Don’t try to point out the law yourself or try to reason with them…their ears will be deaf to you.

* And if, as in my case, you get an apology…be magnanimous and accept it gracefully, it really will make you feel better.

If you’ve read this far…..thanks, and best of luck to all fellow mask less travellers…..we really are the good guys in all of this.

Thanks for that, Harry. Really appreciate it. I stopped going in shops in July once masks became mandatory, but I still ride the bus every day. I appreciate everything that you and the other folks on this site do by going into shops maskfree and dealing with the blowback.

I suffer from PTSD and will not be able to go into shops until masks are not worn. I was attacked by someone whose face I could not see. Unless I want to suffer continual emotional flashbacks, I have to stay out of shops and minimise the time I spend around masked people. I say this, not because I want sympathy or some such, but because people like you are fighting for the freedom of people like me and everyone else who is appalled by this situation.

Thanks again.

Hello Bees—-I’m so sorry to hear of your PTSD. This current situation is the last thing you need and I fully understand how masks are so frightening and unnerving to you. Indeed, I feel this fear myself but I must be one of the lucky ones because I can channel that fear into resistance. Bugger them is what I say and I can tell you that getting that apology in the supermarket was as sweet an outcome as I could have hoped for.
Bullying and aggressive people are the same the world over and given an opportunity, especially when egged on by those in authority (Cressida Dicks!), will seize an opportunity to behave true to type. However, I genuinely feel that these people are in a very small minority and that most who wear masks are complying because it is the easy thing to do. This is evidenced by the very fact that most who exit shops take their masks off post haste.

I do hope that you continue to get encouragement and support from sites like this. Your comment made me really appreciate that the time I spent in writing my post was extremely worthwhile—–thank you!

Cressida Dick should have received a police warning for incitement. Oh wait, she IS the police – that’s the problem.

It was Cressida Dick who ordered those crazed baton wielding thugs to beat up peaceful protestors in Trafalgar Square. By rights she should turn herself in, but I’m not banking on her doing the decent thing. After all she’s already gotten away with murder, so a little GBH on her CV won’t matter too much.

Great advice. Had prepared my arguments if confronted, but much better to call management. You are right, society has changed, I fear permanently.

Thanks for the idea of getting the manager. Shopping maskless has become a huge problem for me. Customers give me a wide birth or pull their children away when they see me! Now I know what it feels like being an outcast. Even got some dirty looks (over the masks) in the swimming pool changing room which has soured the whole experience.

Do the crazies swim with their masks on?

I liked this, it is a good strategy to offer to get the manager involved since it unnerves the vigilantes.

I am getting a general impression these days that exemptions are being respected.

I am getting a general impression these days that exemptions are being respected.

This is partly because shops are realising that their footfall has decreased considerably, not to mention that many shops have been shamed on social media and even MSM (ex. Asda) which have forced them to retrain staff to be knowledgeable of exemptions and respect them.

However I would like to think that shop owners and managers are also a decent bunch.

Do you think we should list the names of those shops that are good on exemptions?

I think its a good idea however we might unwittingly alert the NKVD who might end up harassing them.

I twice suggested this idea in August to replace the list of shops opening up but it has been studiously ignored by this website

It’s hard to generalise, as it may vary from shop to shop in the same chain.

Never had a problem in the Co-op but I might just be lucky.

Thanks for this. Very helpful and an excellent tip to get the manager involved.

My partner witnessed a customer being harassed at a well known supplier of groceries, last night. Unfortunately it was by a member of staff, they asked the person why they had no mask, he answered he was exempt and had asthma. She then asked him where his lanyard was, he said he did not have one. The staff member then said that he really should have a lanyard. My partner questioned the member of staff as to why they were harassing this person. The member of staff replied that they really did not want to and could not care less, but had been told by mangement to challenge anyone with no mask.

I have not named the supplier of groceries, as I work there. I am most upset by this change of direction as I am exempt myself. I will find out where this order came from and present them with the disability discrimination act, reminding them they have no authority to ask people the reason why they are not wearing a mask.

Well done for keeping your cool. This kind of abuse happens almost daily for me now. Never shop staff, it is the vigilante customers who just feel unable to let me pass. Sometimes I try the “no thanks” response, once or twice I have ripped into them which I know gets me nowhere but is impossible to avoid at times. But I really like your idea of batting it away to the shop in terms of responsibility, as it completely undermines their vigilante authority.

Well done you. As well as Fight or Flight, the other thing that can happen is Freeze. You did none of them. Several stars to you.

That’s genius. What are these people most cowed by? Authority. Very clever indeed.

I haven’t had any issues at all yet, but shall definitely use this method if needed.

I think you have a good point about authority. During my chat with the manager, I did point out that seeing as the ‘masked bandit’ was effectively guilty of ‘assault and harassment’ she could ask him to leave the store if he didn’t respond appropriately. Obviously I wasn’t party to her conversation with him but he did apologise PDQ after she left him. Very profusely I must say.

Booths have a sign outside, at least the one near me, basically saying to mind your own business in a polite way.

The manager did mention that to me during her apology. I did say, in a nice way, that my branch of Sainsburys put out a tannoy announcement every so often asking customers to be tolerant of each other and that this perhaps was the ‘gold standard’.

Great account. I haven’t had any confrontations but I carry around a copy of the Law or Fiction material as a prompt sheet in case I need it. Your point about getting a person in authority to intervene is a good one which I’ll bear in mind as my first inclination would probably have been to reason with the hostile customer.

Agree with you. Appealing to higher authorities is the way to go.

A day or so back, someone posted a terrible account of being harassed by 4 train police. I’m wondering if it would be better in such instances to take the initiative, and go straight to the train guard yourself, rather than waiting for the law to come to you.

It’s people like Harry who are so helpful in providing good strategies to cope with sudden unpleasant circumstances. Thanks Harry.

Great idea to involve the manager!

I saw your post just before leaving for my weekly shop at Sainsbury’s and I was all fired up to try it out.

Unfortunately, as per usual, nobody said a word about my bare face and once again my Everyone Dies t-shirt has failed to stir a response. I’m starting to wonder if the t-shirt is scaring them off.

Whatever works for you Mabel!—don’t knock it.

Never worn a mask in shops as yet and am still waiting for the moment when a Covid true believer makes their move. I shall behave myself as you advise when that moment comes, no doubt it will. I’m kind of looking forward to it, would you believe.

Had my moment last week in M and S.
-Where’s your mask?
-I have an exemption
-What exemption?
-That’s between me and my GP
– Don’t believe you. You’re one of them deniers yeah. I’m telling the manager.
-Fine.

I raised the issue later at checkout. Was warmly informed the manager was au fait with exemptions.

Next time I will get the manager. That’s a great move, thanks for sharing the advice.

‘You’re one of them deniers’ – LOL. I haven’t had that in person, but have been called that on social media for politely querying Covid hysteria. ‘One of THEM’.

Good for you.

A suggestion…I’d love to share Mike’s piece on Sage with my mates who are still lockdown zealots, but the whole layout ‘Lockdown Sceptics’ plastered across the top is just a massive turn off for them – they write it off out of hand. So all the hard work you’ve done compiling this excellent document (and many more) is really lost.

Can they not be presented on another, less clandestine website ‘CovidScience.org’ or something, just so they’ll read it!

In other news, our halloween special will be out this weekend.

https://therealnormalpodcast.buzzsprout.com/

Word – https://www.dropbox.com/s/k23unqbav9tzf3u/What%20Sage%20has%20got%20wrong%20-%20Mike%20Yeadon.docx?dl=0
PDF –
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nl9wiskczij6x65/What%20Sage%20has%20got%20wrong%20-%20Mike%20Yeadon.pdf?dl=0

Your top article says it all really. Boris is an idiot but I think Dominic Cummings has more to do with it than we think, and Boris is such a lazy slob he’ll pass the decision making to anyone else rather than do his own reseach. He’s an empty shell.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-54562795 – cue “Thank you Nicola for making us even safer”. Bit worrying about “There has been one significant easing of the rule on face coverings, however.The first minister said couples would no longer have to wear them during wedding or civil partnership ceremonies.” Surely this means that everyone within a five radius will be infected regardless as to whether bride or groom are infectious.

Perhaps the traditional unveiling of the bride could be reversed, and when the officiant says ‘I now pronounce you man and wife’, the husband could ceremonially place a facemask over his bride to appease the gods of Covid.

Share this seminal destruction of SAGE’s madness far and wide. We all have a responsibility to try and shake people out of their Covid Psychosis, articles like Yeadon’s are our tools. We can and shall prevail.

Ee it’s gettin’ a reet muddle. Tier one, tier two, tier three? and who knows what restrictions apply to which? – and they don’t seemed fixed anyway. Can this hold? I wouldn’t have thought so.

Aye, lad. Tha never nos what tha’s ignorin’!

Boris has said that he will shut down Manchester.
I say to Mancunians:”Remember Peterloo”!
Get off your knees and resist.

They want it!! Most people want ALL of this crap!!

The care home deaths, the restrictions, the masks, the shut-off healthcare system, the lost jobs.

THEY WANT IT ALL

Agree! There will be no dissent, no mass protests, no marches, NOTHING!!! The fact that Anti Lockdown protest in London attracts 35000 people or less in a City of 9 millions is a JOKE,DISGRACE , UTTER SHAMBLES!! I tell you if Chelsea play Shrewsbury tomorrow in 1st round of Who gives a FUck Cup it will be 45 000 easy. People will take this lying down and then it will be too late.This country is fucking lost.I can’t be optimistic about this, I just can’t anymore. Every day more shit is served and the VAST majority just eat it..My emotions every single da range from utter despair to complete breakdown.I feel like crying but I’m too angry . THERE IS NO END IN SIGHT!!!

Equally, this brings me some peace. Hope is stressful. Now I am resigned to carnage until there is a vaccine.

We don’t need a damned vaccine!

The vaccine is only the start

It is easier to decide that you know what the future will hold than to live with not knowing. I prefer to live without knowing, rather than choosing an outcome for current peace of mind.

I don’t know how the Liverpool gyms thing will develop but I find it encouraging – people whose common interests are threatened are banding together to resist.

I think it could be the ‘Rosa Parks’ moment. I am not entirely hopeful, but it is about the one good, decent act of civil disobedience from an ordinary person I have yet seen.

There is no end in sight – until there is one. It may take some time, but the ‘new normal’ has so many systemic problems that I think it cannot last long. A Roman emperor once said that to control people they must have ‘bread and circuses’ (ie, be kept well fed and entertained). But if you think about it, we have already lost the ‘circuses’ because people can’t freely assemble. They will put up with this for months – perhaps even years – but eventually they will crumble. It always happens with dictatorships – as the Latin motto goes: ‘Sic Semper Tyrannis’ – ‘thus always to tyrants’.

Are you trying to discourage people from fighting this? Your message seems to be “we’re outnumbered, give up.”

I don’t think we will win a fight to convert people.

The more effective drivers of an end to this are likely to be economic meltdown / inability of the government to borrow more (no sign of that in the gilt market yet) / vaccine.

These will be far more powerful and self-evident than any information campaign we wage.

Yes – and it will then all get brushed under the carpet, like Spain’s ‘pact of forgetting’ after their civil war.

People go mad collectively ,and become sane individually… maybe?

There probably never was a majority in the Thirteen Colonies in favour of separating from the British Crown. We need to stay strong and win people to our cause. Full marks to Toby, Simon Dolan et al for keeping the fight going.

As a anti-populist and a socialist,I never thought that I would say that I hope that Donald Trump wins next month, but arguments aside about whether he had CV or not, I think that his attitude of Lockdown scepticism and “just get on with life and the virus will burn itself out to be replaced by other viruses,etc” is the only way to defeat this ( For the majority) global madness.

Me too

There probably never was a majority in the Thirteen Colonies in favour of separating from the British Crown.

3% of the population actively fighting was all it took.

We have a different type of struggle to deal with, but I’m certain we’re above the 3% mark.

It was the same in Dublin in 1916 – there was very limited support for the Rising when it happened. However, the question is would the Free State have been established if Easter 1916 had not happened?

In the Telegraph comments to someone flagging up the lead story here ‘Utter nonsense…. as expected from this pseudoscience blog. “The more likely situation is that the susceptible population is now sufficiently depleted (now 28%) and the immune population sufficiently large that there will not be another large, national scale outbreak of COVID-19.”For which there is not a scap of evidence.
Hypothetical, wishful-thinking…..at best.’ So that’s us told

Do any of you good folk have a covid risk assessment template that is written by someone on our side – i.e. not given over to total irrational covid alarmism? My company has an audit imminent and we need to box-tick to be within the law, but without being slavish to the madness….

https://hectordrummond.com/2020/07/03/sam-case-hit-them-with-a-coshh/

Hector Drummonds site is sceptic and may be worth getting on touch with as well. That articles author will no doubt help.

Thanks very much BBRS, Hector’s site looks excellent.

Good from the Ganesh in the FT today on the lack of dissent:

https://www.ft.com/content/541f1bc1-7e8d-42e2-8008-b991f9396ed6

I wonder if we (or maybe just me) are missing something here. It is not so much the government crushing us as as our fellow human beings. All those who go silent when we rant about the injustices of all this, probably support it. The polling in the UK and internationally is consistently in favour of all these measures, regardless of how chaotically and inconsistently they are implemented. The government does all this because they are being asked to by the people (and to an extent the press).

There is no mass civil disobedience, no rioting in the streets, no mass non-compliance. Because the vast majority of people STILL WANT THIS, depressing as it is to spell out. They are happy to see the human costs up-front in their faces, the dead in the care homes, the families split apart, the jobs lost, the missed diagnoses, the suicides. All acceptable to them. And it’s not just Britain, it’s nearly everywhere that takes this view.

My stark conclusion is that things will need to get a LOT worse yet for a mass change in attitude to occur, like starvation in the street etc., or we get a vaccine (never mind if it actually works), before we exit this nightmare.

What we are missing is the complete absence of political leadership.

All sorts of measures, probably including the death penalty and the expulsion of Scotland, would command a majority.

Our representatives are elected to debate these measures so that all useful evidence and opinions are aired in order to arrive at a reasonable consensus.

That is not happening. Instead of leading, the government is manipulating public opinion in order to provide cover for the unpopular consequences of Brexit while waiting for governments/leaders in the U.S. and the eu to change so that it can align with the newcomers.

It is unfortunate that this crisis has arrived in the company of an inexperienced UK government wholly orientated around Brexit, a U.S. presidential election where an unholy alliance (Democratic Party/China/WHO) has combined to try to bring down the U.S. President and a weak, divided eu dominated by the electoral angst of Macron.

But the U.S.A. is a business, not a country, so, after 03 Nov the mood will change, facilitated, in 2021 by Brexit and the need for ourselves and the eu to get back to normalised trading conditions.

Reality bites first in the stomach, and the grumblings on both sides of the Atlantic (and Pacific) are already audible

Do you think it important that Trump wins?

Yes, but the election is Biden’s to lose….although he does look like the kind of guy who could lose it……

Not so sure about that Trump is well in every marginal state. The MSM polls are nonsense, it will be close. The Biden corruption stories from the NYP have plenty to come and the suppression tactics may backfire.

People still believe the government would not deliberately harm us.

We NEED a winter lockdown. 4 weeks at least, to bring home the reality of staying in your house while it’s dark and wet outside. No where to go, no friends to see, no jobs. Only then with the masked majority wake up. At the moment it’s all a game, which the government is paying them to play.

Unfortunately most of them will be happy enough watching trash on TV and feeding their faces with junk food.

I think a ‘Covid Secure Christmas’ might prove unpopular, which is why we will probably get a reprieve on Christmas Day (and perhaps Wee Krankie will do one for Hogmanay as well). Then everyone will be happy that ‘Boris saved Christmas’. etc.

Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill 2019-21
https://www.facebook.com/cheektoo.chic.7/videos/844445982960882/

Purported anonymous leak from member of Canada’s Liberal Party:

“Phase in secondary lock down restrictions on a rolling basis, starting with major metropolitan areas first and expanding outward. Expected by November 2020.

– Rush the acquisition of (or construction of) isolation facilities across every province and territory. Expected by December 2020.

– Daily new cases of COVID-19 will surge beyond capacity of testing, including increases in COVID related deaths following the same growth curves. Expected by end of November 2020.

– Complete and total secondary lock down (much stricter than the first and second rolling phase restrictions). Expected by end of December 2020 – early January 2021

– Reform and expansion of the unemployment program to be transitioned into the universal basic income program. Expected by Q1 2021.

– Projected COVID-19 mutation and/or co-infection with secondary virus ( referred to as COVID-21 ) leading to a third wave with much higher mortality rate and higher rate of infection. Expected by February 2021.

– Daily new cases of COVID-21 hospitalizations and COVID-19 and COVID-21 related deaths will exceed medical care facilities capacity. Expected Q1 – Q2 2021.

– Enhanced lock down restrictions (referred to as Third Lock Down) will be implemented. Full travel restrictions will be imposed (including inter-province and inter-city). Expected Q2 2021.

– Transitioning of individuals into the universal basic income program. Expected mid Q2 2021.

– P rojected supply chain break downs, inventory shortages, large economic instability. Expected late Q2 2021.

– Deployment of military personnel into major metropolitan areas as well as all major roadways to establish travel checkpoints. Restrict travel and movement. Provide logistical support to the area. Expected by Q3 2021.

Along with that provided road map the Strategic Planning committee was asked to design an effective way of transitioning Canadians to meet a unprecedented economic endeavor. One that would change the face of Canada and forever alter the lives of Canadians.

What we were told was that in order to offset what was essentially an economic collapse on a international scale, that the federal government was going to offer Canadians a total debt relief.

This is how it works: the federal government will offer to eliminate all personal debts (mortgages, loans, credit cards, etc) which all funding will be provided to Canada by the IMF under what will become known as the World Debt Reset program .

In exchange for acceptance of this total debt forgiveness the individual would forfeit ownership of any and all property and assets forever.

The individual would also have to agree to partake in the COVID-19 and COVID-21 vaccination schedule, which would provide the individual with unrestricted travel and unrestricted living even under a full lock down (through the use of photo identification referred to as Canada’s HealthPass) .”

https://www.nexusnewsfeed.com/article/geopolitics/canadian-control-measures-just-the-tip-of-the-earth-sized-iceberg

Ties in with school holiday lockdowns and Bill Gates smirk when he talks about the next virus.The scary thing is that this scenario is now plausible

Problem number 1. I have zero debt.

I don’t either. Does this mean we should borrow money?

Same here – I deliberately downsized 2 years ago and own my house outright (also have a significant bank balance).

Why should I be punished for being sensible (having said that, as society has moved into an era of group punishments, I can see what I own being taken away for “the common good”).

This is War! It seems as well as stockpiling food and medical supplies we need guns!

Slowly but surely people are working out why the UK and US Bills of Rights (?) were specific about the right to bear arms.

Took a quick look at their site. I have to say it doesn’t look like a reputable source.

I would be very very glad to think it is utter rubbish!

Disnfo warning alert!

I’m a swabber and will / have visited people at their place of work. I ring them the day before to arrange a convenient time. We are allowed to adjust appointments by + or – one day only. I work 7 days a week and the latest anyone has requested has been 9 p.m.. I have, however, heard of swabbers telling people that they only work until 5:00 (there are no rules about this).

and the fact that your flexible approach is at odds with the experience of the person in the narrative above , and that you also say there is no consistency in approach indicates the total lack of organisation and process in this whole enterprise.

And the most amazing thing is that that person actually volunteered for the schemes and willingly agreed to be tested monthly given the upheaval in the life of his family and associates should a test result in a “positive”.

Sir Desmond Swayne made the concise point that Sage as, ‘Scientists’ are asked what they would do to stop Covid spreading, they would answer as scientists, stop people meeting at all. But as the PM, Johnson has the job of considering the impact. Letting people meet at work but not a home, is plain wrong.

Hospitals in London are empty. Talked to a friend who is a consultant at the Royal Free in London, yes that hospital where they have closed the Paediatric A&E, says hospital very quiet. Talked to another friend whose cousin is an A&E doctor, also very quiet, meanwhile one of my nieces who is a private GP says they are picking up cancers, cardio and other serious illnesses missed by NHS GP’s and others. Mega Malfeasance comes to mind.

I have a relation who is a nurse at Sunderland General hospital, like a ghost town (his words). Friends at the RVI in Newcastle, very quite. But according to local councils, we are on a knife edge. I’m not sure who is worse., the government or local councils.

They are all in this together, it was all planned quite some time ago. We are but pawns in this game, disposable ones too! When we were being told the Lockdown was only for a few weeks to save the NHS and the gullible were out banging their pots and pans every week the Agenda had already been planned, I could see back then that Christmas looked like being cancelled as our Christmas Fayre was cancelled in March!! It’s time to burn those masks get your lives back and be prepared to FIGHT!

A friend of a friend, so this is a third hand account,is a paramedic who reports that they haven’t dealt with a covid case for months. What they do report though, is an increase in attending attempted suicides, suicides, spousal abuse and child neglect. They mentioned that they are busy not because of covid but because GPs have fucked off into the long grass to hide and they find themselves dealing with calls that would normally have been handled by GPs.

Sounds like a class action claim for Leigh Day solicitors (they took on the case of those young men(?) who were seriously harmed in a drugs trial about 3 years back.

Sent my MP (Conservative) an email last night protesting at latest lockdowns. He has replied saying he does not believe in further lockdowns yet then goes on to say that in London boroughs should be lockdowned on a borough by borough basis. Sounds he should be appointed as a minister in Wancock’s department with logic like that!

He ends up by saying he will not reply to further e mails from me as they are “personal and unpleasant”. You bet they are as they reflect the anger and despair I feel towards this government. At least he should be in doubt about my feelings. I helped with his campaign last year but have told him I am never voting for him again and hope he loses his seat.

I think all MPs pay should be stopped likewise doctors and nurses hiding behind the Covid bogeyman as an excuse for not doing the job WE pay them to do. I’m afraid my emails to my MP are no longer polite even though she never responds I will continue to email her.

You want lockdown ended tomorrow? Furlough MPs today.

My MIL waited nearly 4 weeks to get a call from the doctor. She had gone to see a private consultant regarding a hip replacement and they found a heart murmur whilst carrying out tests. They said she would need to be referred to heart specialist and would contact her GP. The outcome of this long awaited phone call, that she would be better going private to see a heart specialist!. I can’t believe what doctors are paid while hiding away, all the while the low paid heroes are the shop workers, carers, taxi/bus drivers, the list is endless.

If he feels that emails from irate constituents are “personal and unpleasant” then what the feck is he doing as an MP? He’s paid to represent you as a constituent and part of the job means having to deal with the rough and the smooth.

Methinks he’s tone deaf and if really seriously believes what he said to you then he has no business sitting in those green benches. Time for him to retrain as something else because he’ll need it when he’s voted out.

Perhaps he can get a job ‘in cyber’, you know, that grammatically incorrect land of plenty.

Indeed. See if he likes it.

Oh, the poor little lamb. I mean, it’s not like we’re paying their wages (and pay rise) or anything, is it. I keep drafting e-mails to my MP and they’re far, far worse than “unpleasant”.

These people have absolutely no fecking idea of what impact their insane policies are having. Not for them the constant worry about how they are going to earn a living or the prospect of having 17 years of hard graft destroyed. Bastards. They deserve everything they are getting.

Perhaps they can all bloody re-train: as human beings.

Exactly. MPs now are so removed from the concerns of ordinary people that I have every sympathy for a reader many years go who commented in a Guaridan op ed piece that he would rather have the Duke of Devonshire represent him than the current shower that inhabit Parliament now.

They don’t care that they’re destroying people’s lives and why should they? They’re still drawing on full pay, can claim expenses and have a good pension when they leave Parliament so they have no idea how we live.

Hence why I’ve long advocated that MPs’ pay should be slashed to minimum wage, claiming expenses should be banned and no pension as well when they leave. It’s supposed to be public service so there should be little to no compensation.

That will weed out those who are in it only for the money and connections. If they don’t like it, they don’t need to stand as an MP.

Wasn’t that the C18th position? So only well heeled members of the landed classes could be MPs?

It was and remained the default position until the early 20th century. Disraeli was perpetually short of funds and his purchase of his country estate Hughenden was only possible with help from wealthy allies.

However even from the late 18th century there were those already in trade becoming MPs

He was a new boy last December. Not yet been made a PPS so I reckon he is not rebelling as he wants to get on the ladder.

I would guess that right now even with 9 months of fear porn, if given the choice, 90% of the people in this country including the Grannies would rather get back to normal and take the risk to them personally that Covid presents. If that’s the case it would mean that we are trashing society and the economy simply to cater for the fears of the 10% of chin wobblers.

Covid has just been the excuse they’ve used. And very skillfully too. It’s an attempted reset.

Thank you Will and Toby for keeping this site going and doing such a brilliant professional job too.

The sage piece reminds me of something an old boss used to often say –

“In god we trust, everyone else needs to bring data”

Not sure if this is original to him but another similar one from Ronald Reagan was ‘

“Trust, but verify”

Hang in there fellow Lockdown Sceptics. The truth will out.

The truth will out. They need to get a move on before its too late.

The truth has outed. It’s made no difference, we are post truth now. We were the minute masks were made mandatory.

“Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition” (allegedly heard at Pearl Harbour).

Yeah, agreed. A really solid update today, that’s to the point and is a great rebuttal to the nonsense pseudo science.

As always, the arguments here are good and backed by sound evidence.

Sadly, no one in authority is listening or is even remotely interested in these things. It should be obvious by now that they are set on converting the UK into a branch of the globalist New Order, using the virus as their pretext – aka “the Great Reset”. That is why we keep hearing phrases like “build back better”.

So it all boils down to this question: Do we consent?

That’s the only question for anyone on a personal level really. Anyone with principles. Those who comply are often just looking for the safety to say no, but it requires those with principles to let them know how this ends.

I don’t consent, no one would consent if they knew the details of the Great Reset. Prince Charlie, talks about it, does he know, he sounds as if its a wonderful thing.

It will be a wonderful thing for him and his WEF friends.

Already there has been a massive transfer of wealth to the richest few percent..

Exactly. They want for others that which they wouldn’t want for themselves. Like comprehensive education: alright for us plebs but not for *them*.

I don’t consent to any of this crap.

They want for others that which they wouldn’t want for themselves.

Bang on, KH. Folk who don’t use cafes/cinemas/pubs/public transport etc. etc., and who don’t lose any income, telling the rest of us to do without. Easy.

Also like the Church of the NHS. What are the odds that this lot go private for their health care as well?

When does the “Great Reset” start? Is it when all the people calling for it stop flying around the world, share their assets with the poor and then move into smaller housing to reduce their footprint?

What Alex Jones was saying 15 years ago, I thought he was nuts too. He was right about the Chinese Social Credit nightmare as well.

“ It should be obvious by now that they are set on converting the UK into a branch of the globalist New Order “

No it isn’t (a least, not in the sense that will generally be interpreted in this context) and I wish you would have the basic courtesy to choose an original handle if you are going to post here regularly, rather than duplicating one that was already in regular use weeks before you started posting here.

Yes, there are plenty of people wanting to turn the UK into part of a world culture and government, and those people exploit whatever comes along. But they generally disagree about most of the details, as between the Labour and “Conservative” Party globalist groups, for instance.

Do we consent? Well, by and large “we” have done so, so far. I didn’t consent to the Iraq War, but look what happened. The Prime Minister responsible was put back into office two years later.

“bUt We’Re FoLlOwInG tHe ScIeNcE” – UK Govt.

Their ignorance won’t notice but now the JS Memo and the GB Declaration are out there with polar opposite views there is clearly not one strand of scientific opinion.

Had to deal with my girlfriend being in tears last night, she’s a Canadian national (dual UK/Can citizen) and she’s not been back for 2 years to see her mum and sisters. She has bought her flight back for Christmas, and has to do 2 weeks quarantine there when she gets back and call the govt. dept. every day – she found out that she’ll have to also do 2 weeks when she gets back here, which is just ridiculous as she’ll have been in quarantine for her entire 2 week stay in Canada!

On top of this the poor woman has been furloughed since march and her company has posted record profits this year, she’s had 2 e-mails from the company in that time, and nothing about what is going to happen to her.

She has literally lost the will to go on with this now, lays the blame solely at the government, just another example of them prioritising Covid-19 and their weird flip flopping agenda, over the lives of normal working class people. It’s so sad to see such a formerly bubbly woman have her spirit crushed out of her.

Please stop calling them a government. It’s a dictatorship

Regime or Junta have a better ring

Especially if you pronounce junta with a hard “ch” for the ‘J’.

Junta is better, a Regime can be respectably.

Unfortunately, I voted for them, so whilst they are democratically elected they’re a government in my eyes. But I get what you’re saying Cecil.

My vote was hijacked when they used an Enabling Act to rule by decree.

That’s an excellent point actually!

BBC main news item

• Andy Burnham holding the government ‘over a barrel’, says Raab

Oh! the irony. This from the Foreign Secretary

Then again anywhere North of the M25 is a foreign country to the Eton set

If he is not on there already please add Raab to the list

Being held over a barrel is the sort of thing they actually do in Guantanamo Bay, and Raab’s happy for that to happen to Julian Assange.

song for the day – in sympathy for our Liverpudlian comrades in double double dodgy lockdown.

From the great Ken Dodd of Knotty Ash on behalf of all scousers
“Tiers” 1965 (outsold the Beatles) an ode to Boris Johnson

Tiers for souvenirs are all you’ve left me
Memories of a love you never meant
I just can’t believe you could forget me
After all those happy hours we spent (together)
Tiers have been my only consolation
But tiers can’t mend a broken heart I must confess
Let’s forgive and forget
Turn our tiers of regret
Once more to tiers of happiness

In the Guardian yesterday, by Larry Elliott, Britain’s Covid-19 strategy simply adds up to many more jobless people

I looked at this article and saw over 1100 comments. Copied the link over here and now there are zero comments. Checked on a different browser. Still zero. Odd, to say the least.

Not so. 1137 comments when closed at 12.15 pm on 15th Oct, still all visible today 16th Oct.

What a fabulous piece from Dr. Mike Yeadon! To be shared as much as possible!

Is it possible to have the excellent article standalone? Some people literally won’t read anything that comes from certain places

Word – https://www.dropbox.com/s/k23unqbav9tzf3u/What%20Sage%20has%20got%20wrong%20-%20Mike%20Yeadon.docx?dl=0

PDF –
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nl9wiskczij6x65/What%20Sage%20has%20got%20wrong%20-%20Mike%20Yeadon.pdf?dl=0

excellent – thanks!

What’s Burnham up to?

If he thinks this is a terrible disease we need to lockdown for then he should lockdown. Is he holding out for more money? If so how many will die?

I could see his case if he was a sceptic, but he seems fully on-board covtard and just wants more cash

That’s exactly it, Steve. Your last sentence says it all.

But then by his own standards, its worth people to die for money.

Well, he’s also involved in covering up rape gangs in Oldham, so fairly consistent then.

true, and stafford nhs

Look at Essex. They ASKED to be put into tier 2. Businesses are fuming about it as it would mean restrictions but no financial support.

Except for the council, of course.

The last sentence is what I think is his motivation – its all about the money.

With the right price people can be bought off. Look at the culture and heritage sectors – have been silent all throughout and with the culture & heritage fund, the state is able to buy their silence further.

Yes it is all about money and what happens to people do not really matter to them. However, it is quite funny seeing Raab not knowing how to proceed, Raab even said that he is not threatening them. Hopefully a handful of people might get the message that this coming lockdown is nonsense.

And he wants all of us to share his pain

Error 1: Assuming that 100% of the population was susceptible to the virus and that no pre-existing immunity existed.

Error 2: The belief that the percentage of the population that has been infected can be determined by surveying what fraction of the population has antibodies.

Mike Yeadon makes the fundamental scientific flaw of stating as fact what should only be a hypothesis. The purpose of science is to construct a hypothesis and test it against data, then see whether there is sufficient information to reject the null hypothesis. The above two “Errors” are the null hypothesis. What are the testable outcomes that these hypotheses produce? – what evidence allows them to be rejected?

I have seen no prospective evidence that pre-existing T cell cross reactivity confers a lower risk of infection. I have seen no evidence that people with confirmed infection have not produced some seropositivity. Multiple hypotheses may lead to the same description of observation, but there must be testable outcomes for future states.

By changing the state of the system – leaving lockdown, opening schools, returning to office-based work, what are the testable predictions of his assertion? How does high immunity square with rising hospital admissions, and as surely as night will follow day, rising deaths in a couple of weeks time? How many deaths does his assertion predict in a month’s time? When will immunity prevent such mortality, if that was the primary reason for the previous decline from April? Is immunity really only of six months duration? How does that short duration compare with the first hypothesis?

There is no point appealing to authority (argumentum ab auctoritate), science is science – every confirmatory trial he ever ran attempted to reject the null hypothesis. And I’m also a thirty year scientist, in the same field with a background in Mathematics, Medicine, Biology and Epidemiology.

I think Sweden largely disproves the modellers major assertions.

The second wave here is a very slowly (in comparison to March) rising ripple rather than a wave. Probably sweeping up the 20% that lockdown did shield from the first wave. Although the time trajectory of our first wave was very similar to Sweden, so lockdown can only have had a marginal effect.

I am certain that behaviours now, particularly among those most vulnerable in nursing homes, has changed everywhere. Here, hospitalisations have risen since schools returned on a background of reduced contact rates elsewhere. The null hypothesis was that this is tranmitted like other respiratory pathogens and children can spread it. That appears to have some basis in fact. Unlike influenza, they do not however, appear to suffer appreciable morbidity. My favorite science quote:

“If you thought that science was certain – well that’s just an error on your part” Richard Feynman.

It’s the flu season. Covid isn’t the only illness going about. People are still dying of other diseases, the NHS has been ignoring them since March! The government has lost all credibility since the Covid stats were found to be manipulated and probably still are.

It’s an excellent point to demand scientific process be followed. I would tweet that to Mike and see what he says. He’s very engaging with people on such scientific fundamentals. Please, tweet him and let us know how he responds.

I am not a scientist but I would caution that we are still just looking at data such as hospitalisations in a bit of a vaccum. If, for example, mortality is currently trending well within normal ranges across the UK, what is this deadly virus doing?

It doesn’t seem to be anything exceptional. Source is Euromomo.

Why are we here? Why the lockdowns and self inflicted catastrophe for what appears to be a normal trend.

no excess deaths across europe
flu deaths 3x higher than covid in the UK
many covids will be false positives
most covid ‘deaths’ are deaths of old age where covid may amongst other things be a contributing factor

its a nothingburger. but the lockdowns will kill millions – especially children in developing countries

Crank up the PCR cycles you can get any result you want.

I think Sweden largely disproves the modellers major assertions.

No it doesn’t- not yet. Sweden are a bit behind the rest of Europe. They could still get a second surge. The pause during the summer might just be down to seasonality of the virus.



”JUST WAIT TWO WEEKS”

Due to latitude differences Sweden is a couple of weeks ahead of the UK in regard to any seasonality.

Sweden are light years ahead with their strategy.
A second surge of what?
Covid is virtually indistinguishible from any other coronavirus, or flu or influenza-like illness. PCR is worse than a joke. They will only get a ‘case’ increase if they up their testing, which would be a huge mistake.

You really have a thing for willing Sweden to fail. I’d get help for that obsession, unfortunately, the NHS isn’t providing treatment for anything except COVID at this moment in time.

My reading of the article is that he has made a testable hypothesis on the basis of all his assumptions that local outbreaks would occur and that places previously heavily affected would not see a significant second wave. He makes this prediction based on death rates, which give incontrovertible evidence rather than “cases” which is subject to all sorts of uncertainty.
As with any test it takes time to work through, but at the moment it appears to be a lot more accurate than SAGE’s.

death rates are dodgy too. just because you tested +ve for something it doesn’t mean it killed you. covid deaths are deaths of old age. we dont say granny died of a cold if she passes away at 95 and had a cold. its old age

Excess total mortality seems the only reliable indicator, it’s down across Europe.

it is the best measure, only complicated by the excess deaths caused by lockdown

Exactly – and those still to be caused by the spring lockdown – ie undetected cancers and postponed treatment.

You missed the point about making sure the data is measured with sufficient precision to test your hypothesis.

Why then are ‘key potential impacts of cross-reactive T cell memory…. already incorporated into epidemiological models based on data of transmission dynamics’?

And have you not read the ‘stream of studies that have documented SARS-CoV-2 reactive T cells in people without exposure to the virus’?

And have you not read the ‘stream of studies that have documented SARS-CoV-2 reactive T cells in people without exposure to the virus’?

But how many people? 5%, 10%, ….. 25% ? I very much doubt this group comprises any more than 10% of the population.

You can’t simply jump on a plausible hypothesis and claim that it means Covid is no longer a problem.

The only good data is overall all cause mortality.

That clearly demonstrates that there is no longer any problem, has not been since tens of thousands of the elderly and infirm were kicked out of hospital at 24 hours notice in March.

So I can jump on any hypothesis that I like, but I don’t need to because the confected crisis is a load of old nonsense

I have read the studies. None have provided any context as to what this mean for prevention of a future infection. Nobody has prospectively followed a cohort to see whether those with such T cells have lower rates of infection than those who do not. That is my point. We are testing vaccines to test this assertion, that a vaccine may induce some protective immunity. The sample size for such a study is likely to be large. Wanting something is not the same as proving it, nor predicting the consequences.

A differential rate of return of new hospitalisations and deaths based on previous infection rates is testable. And a valid line of inquiry. How much of a reduction would one ascribe to changes in behaviour as opposed to immunity?

Nobody is dying ‘from’ covid 19: explain…..

I agree with this and have been trying to make the same point since March.

That said, the rate of infection is not even close to that seen in March so strict lockdowns are overkill at the moment.

Yes- there will be more hospitalisations and probably more deaths but that will also happen with flu & pneumonia over the coming months.

No-one has any idea regarding ‘the rate of infection’ because there is no clear definition of ‘infection’ or ‘case’, no single PCR test, and no agreed cycle threshold to determine ‘infection’

“How does high immunity square with rising hospital admissions, and as surely as night will follow day, rising deaths in a couple of weeks time?”

Hospital admissions for respiratory conditions rise at this time of year every year. Please advise how you differentiate between these respiratory conditions in an environment of ‘no questions asked if you record COVID19’ and all other respiratory illnesses that society has heretofore not locked down for.

In addition, you need to differentiate between admissions for COVID and admissions for everything else where a PCR test was administered and determined the presence of COVID – please reference how you strip out false positives from the results of the PCR test.

Influenza admissions are diagnosed using PCR as well and counted separately. As is mortality. False postives are less of an issue than people would have you believe. You need the false positive rate in someone admitted demonstrating hypoxia, perhaps a cough, temperature. Not the rate in someone sampled at random.

False positives are a major issue and will remain a major issue while there is no single consistent PCR test, no universally accepted definition of ‘infection’ or ‘case’ and no agreed PCR test cycle threshold.

The only good data is overall all cause mortality and that has been plumb normal since a few weeks after they kicked all those tens of thousands of elderly and infirm patients out of hospital at 24 hours notice.

Cracks appearing down under:
https://youtu.be/kGBEaYEtiys

“A sledgehammer to kill a swarm of flies”

Momma get the hammer there’s a fly on the baby’s head.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SOGwPq_KeQ

Discussions between central government and local leaders over putting the region [Greater Manchester] into Tier 3 have stalled.

It’s so deadly and so urgent, that they’ve put off doing anything, while they have a chat.

Between a rock and a hard place

Burnham’s solution is to have the whole country in tier 3 ie national lockdown 2.

Yes same in Wales.

Circuit breaker will be implemented October 23rd, just before the half term. Drakeford’s ambassadors have parleyed a week’s break in hostilities with the Covids until then.

Young kids can’t mix and play with friends at school. And now they can’t see them at half-term.
Totally unconscionable.

The site is building in footprint.

The public mood is changing, slowly but surely.

All the evidence clearly supports the sceptical perspective.

The force is with us.

Hang in there.

Mental Health practitioner ended up telling me about the Chinese Social Credit thing and how they are imposing it in Cambodia. Not pretty.

Very very Sceptic about Covid and lockdown.

The zealots are really resorting to dirtier tricks by the day. For me, the Wikipedia page on the GBD, is one example of how they are stooping to new lows. I’m sure it will get worse over the next few weeks. Which makes me me think the force is with us.

The State is in a blind panic trying to bolster their evil fair tale. They are looking more and more like the lying fascist scum that they are. Soon everybody will see the emperor naked. Just a few more weeks guys. It’s shit or bust for these fools.

Thanks, having a particularly low day today! Sorry to sound needy, but these comments have proven many times a great tonic for me. Hmmm, speaking of “tonic”, is 11:21am too early for one with a smidgen of gin?

The pubs used to open at 1030hrs on market day…..

Tim,
We have vim.
We will hang in
Until we win.

I’d take her seriously if she didn’t pose with her knees apart.

London with a population of over 8 million is hotbed and breeding ground for Covid-19, the virus has legs and that’s lots of them. With cases increasing, London should immediately be put into tier 3 with a lockdown now, this will halt the spread of the virus. No one must visit anyone, This lockdown will continue until we have beaten the virus. Banks, Businesses and Parliament must close.
?

Who said this?

CCP bot.

Escaped from the Mails worst boted box

<::> Seriously, push the button in London, you will soon stop the lunatics running the asylum

Push what button? Which lunatics?

The virus has legs?
That’s persuasive.

Oh do eff off you dozy sock puppet.

Ouch, You live in London I presume.

My mum ( in her eighties and living in South Wales) has gone full Rebecca Riots. Facing a full lockdown from Comrade Drakeford (aka Wales’ version of Stalin) she said to me that even if my brother had to drive along every single backroad between her and London, I and her granddaughter would be coming home for Christmas. As ‘FedUp’ put it yesterday – NOT IN MY NAME’. They should get T shirts printed.

Good for her.

We’re planning the same. Break out of Gulag Cymru (Sektor North-East), infiltrate Hotzone 2 ( Mancunian District) , extract son from his Quarantine Quarters (formerly known as halls of residence), then make the homeward dash to our secret resistance base.

Whether or not I go full-on Rebecca Rioter, I’m not sure yet. It’s a difficult decision. If I get caught wearing female attire, I’ll get extra points on my Social Credit rating for being trans-friendly, but I’ll get points docked for my blackface.

Three cheers for your mum. I drink to her. (slurp)

If you take a position where the most important thing is to “save lives”, how do you shift away from it if any move results, even if slightly, in an increase in death?

Exactly! Worse than saving lives it’s “none shall die”.

You look for scapegoats?

It’s never your plan, it’s because they didn’t believe enough. Like was pointed out in the little story of the tribe and their visions

The photograph of Her Majesty, The Queen, on the front page of the Daily Telegraph, on public duties, continuing her work, without a mask, is what real leadership looks like.

And we get the message, loud and clear.

At Porton Down too where the lockdownistas would probably insist on full Chernobyl (post explosion) kit.

Getting the antidote to the vaccine.

Caught Lorraine on GMB this morning about this. She immediately played down the no mask thing.

“she’s the queen”

Everyone else…mask up

If Queenie now wore a mask would all the bank notes, coins and stamps have to be changed, that would be funny.

Having lived through the blitz, I don’t suppose the virus frightens her much.
The problem is that most of that generation, who could authoritatively put all of this into proper perspective, is gone now.

What we have left is a feeble, self indulging, BEDWETTING society.

Does President Trumps voice sound a lot different since he had the Covid?

“a research-based PhD”

Is there some other kind of PhD?

(Clue: the answer is “no”).

Thank you for your explanation and handy hint, Matt. It can be very confusing to us, sometimes.
Yours, A. Cabinet-Minister.

Getting my daily dose of hilarity and frustration from the Daily Wail and seeing who to annoy in the comments I saw this article:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8845533/Coronavirus-Soaring-infections-death-rates-claims-justify-lockdowns.html

Wow, for the MSM it is a pretty hard-hitting condemnation of the official figures.

Even uses the word “censored” on one graph about the 28 day mortality.

Plus words and phrases like “Truth”, “doomsday scenario is off track” and “claim” and “reality” and “more cases due to more testing”

Some good sceptical comments knocking the trolls.

Absolutely shocking for the MSM. What is going on? Worm turned?

Finally paying attention to their highly informed sceptic commenters.

Some of the worst rated can be funny
“Second wave is all the fault of you thick northerners, first wave too tbh. Make London separate National Lockdown everywhere else NOW!”

Just got to be a wind up

The Mail publishes quite a lot of sceptical articles. It’s the only paper that does, although the DT has sceptical columnists (alongside those helpful articles telling you how to make a face nappy out of an old sock).

Blimey – well said Mike Yeadon. This is possibly the greatest public health scandal ever. SAGE should be disbanded immediately. For my money they are incompetent AND dishonest. They call themselves scientists but they are not interested in truth, only in defending their position.

My area has just changed colour on the covid tracker intensity map

https://covid.joinzoe.com/data

we are at the giddy heights of 2 per 1000 – probably false positives

Woo, make sure you wear your mask! Stay Safe!

I don’t trust masks – too many air gaps. I’m currently experimenting with sellotaping a plastic shopping bag over my he……

The Rubberbandits have beaten you to it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rubberbandits

But they were like this long before COVID!

It’s all a jolly jape ain’t it, all these so called academics and experts spewing out advice, science, graphs, opinions and pontificating.

The wankers have never done a day’s work in their life but they have been waiting for this, their time in the sun, their time to shine to justify their bullshit opinions and knowledge.

Most of them couldn’t find their arse with 2 hands, don’t listen to the people who really know, what’s that a Nobel prize, nah, don’t listen to them, I once won the 50m breaststroke and once nearly done the times crossword.

Fuck off and crawl back into your hole.

What’s that, me, what do I know. I know fuck all mate, but I know when someone is taking the piss out of me.

It’s all pretend. God help us if there is an actual war.

Has the Simon Dolan injunction ‘struck down’ yesterday made it to any of the newspapers, radio or TV? https://twitter.com/simondolan/status/1316784461380542464

WILL/TOBY I thought it might be in today’s LS. Would appreciate if you could address it tomorrow to give it more coverage.

Daily Mail

NEW: Speaker bans the sale of alcohol in Commons bars [from this Saturday]

https://twitter.com/JuliaHB1/status/1316839672736292869

Wow. That’ll never be reversed now.

I loved that when I heard it earlier – he’ll sort them out I hope

LinkedIn. I log into mine about once every four months and look at the feed of woke professionals all making it in their field in these unprecedented times and new normal. So many posts of people in masks and even some talking about colour coordinating with their ties so the masks can be used as a pocket handkerchief too.

When I was a teacher I used to coordinate my watches, ties and socks… cool but poor man’s watches like Seiko and Orient Star and Vostok Europe.. that was before the job became toxic and I quit forever. Do people actually find work from LinkedIn? Is it worthwhile for a jobseeker to use? Never used it.

I’ve had three job offers soliticited through LinkedIn in the past 2 years. Turned them all down but went right up to the offer stage just to feel good about myself.

I’ve been contacted this week through it also, so will be chasing that up.

I neve post anything howvert the big 4 firm I work for has training on how to boost your LinkedIn presence and profile. It’s so sickening. I see people who I know hate their jobs putting up pictures of some generic training event with the caption “Another great session and young minds engaged. #diversity #wecandothis”

Is so vacuous

I hope that contact goes well for you

Vomit!!

Yuki junior manager at Toby Carvery wearing matching lilac mask and waistcoat.

Ugh, the muzzle profile pictures. At least they tell you who to ignore.

“Facebook for suits”, somebody once called LinkedIn.

things that make you go hmmm…

All started with Treason May….

https://www.weforum.org/press/2018/09/united-kingdom-partners-with-world-economic-forum-to-develop-first-artificial-intelligence-procurement-policy

This made me giggle (makes a change, these days) at the idea of contacts required from beyond the grave. Tis the season, after all..!

“David Rose is looking for people who have suffered severe ill effects *or even died* as a result of treatment for cancers and other serious illnesses being delayed by Covid…If anyone is willing to talk to him, please contact him direct..”

Ha, I’ve never been to a seance

I find it rather sinister Toby is directing whistle blowers to an Mi5 asset.

MI5 are in charge of internal UK crimes.

MI6 do the overseas stuff.

I was on their’s and MI6’s websites researching who to contact other than the Speaker of the House and the local Police to start a treason investigation.

On their websites it even tells you how to contact them securely and anonymously:

https://www.sis.gov.uk/share-information-securely.html

I actually know a few people into Spiritualism who can help him there… (my mum-in-law for one).

Is anybody theeeeeeere?
Cough once for yes, twice for no. If the medium’s temperature rises, quarantine all present including the spirits.
All ghosts must be masked.
Ectoplasm is strictly forbidden.

I don’t have the time or space for a full discussion of Mike Yeadon’s long post, but I’ld like to pick up on some points. He is sceptical about the role of mathematical modelling, and describes an unfortunate experience he had with a team of modellers in the past. I think his story illustrates quite well how not to do it, and explains why he has the impression he has.

He says

it was my misfortune for a few years, while still a VP of respiratory research and new drug discovery, to have no choice but to work with a group of modellers, who had been brought in by credulous senior management.

Well, that suggests that he wasn’t willing to engage with them, which was perhaps less than ideal for a VP of research. He more-or-less admits that he set them up to fail.

I spent many days with them. I would ask, “How do you know that you’ve included in your model all the important biological processes which bear on the output, the patients’ clinical condition?” No answer.

Well, of course not. That was his job, directly or indirectly. Over those many days, he does not seem to have spent any time trying to explain to that team (which he was supposed to be working with) what the important biological processes were so that they could build a model that reflected them.

“How do you know what to assume is the starting condition for each of what you assert are the key variables?” They couldn’t adequately answer that, either.

I find that rather extraordinary, too, since the obvious answer is: “That’s what we need your people to tell us”.

So I find it odd that Dr Yeadon chooses to criticise mathematical modelling on the basis of an experience where he was obvious not prepared to engage with the process at all.

I think his experience was tainted due to them being brought in by “credulous senior management”. It’s typical that generalist modellers would be brought in rather than ones who would at least know the field and what questions to ask leading to better collaboration. Managers are known to bring in new configuration and improvement systems (hello there Six Sigma) that are unnecesary and wastes of money. But look good to other managers as ‘doing something”

Quite so, and my guess is that what we have an account of here is office politics, as seen from one side, rather than anything useful about mathematical modelling.

But it also riterates the golden rule of modelling which is Garbage In Garbage Out. In fact any IT system holds the same.

So, for me, the important part is to discuss those variables. Maybe MY did indeed provide poorly researched values for those inputs and his model was a poor fit because of that. However we don’t know that.

However in respect of CV-19 the modellers are relying on some very key inputs which most certainly are up for debate. Susceptibility of the population and overall lethality of this virus. We are so rich in data now, surely the null hypothesis of 100% and 1% IFR that Ferguson modelled on is indefensible?

If we focus on just those two inputs, we can make progress. Models can be improved and we don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater

My take on what he wrote is that he left the modellers to build their model in isolation and then criticised them for not incorporating the things he hadn’t given them. But perhaps I’m being unfair.

Any modeller worth his wage surely wouldn’t proceed without clear sign off on the variables to be used?

modellers often incorporate the things that are easy and ignore the things that are hard – they subconsciously justify to themselves that the hard things are second order so its ok.

I don’t think we can really tell for sure what happened in Dr Yeadon’s laboratory, based on what he has written here.

We are so rich in data now, surely the null hypothesis of 100% and 1% IFR that Ferguson modelled on is indefensible?

Indeed, and I’m not defending it as a prediction based on what we know in mid-October. I would defend it as a Reasonable Worst Case based on what was known in late February.

Obviously you can’t get worse than 100% susceptibility, and so it suprised me that they couldn’t temper that analysis based on any data they had or even previous coronaviruses. In my data job I place that in the extremist camp. It would only really be used to show a full spectrum but hardly realistic. Is MY correct to say they did not include confidence bars?

As for the 1% IFR, sure. I think given the WHO initially came out much higher they probably gave this a little more thought. However even 0.1% one way or the other would have huge ramifications. So the room for error was extremely small. Not an easy position to be in. However, if you recalibrated your IFR calc as things progressed in the UK, and against other data from European nations, the picture would have become more clear. And you could at leatst manage this errors as best as could be expected

Well, I don’t claim to know what discussions, if any were held on this point. However, simple modelling suggests that the relationship between total cases and initial susceptibility is close to linear, if you assume that the inferred R0 has to be adjusted accordingly. So if a simple model with 100% susceptibility predicts 510,000 deaths, and you assess, say, 100,000 as being the limit you can cope with then you need some reason to believe that there’s 80% pre-existing immunity, or the IFR has been over-estimated by a factor of 5, before you can afford to take the do-nothing route. Would you feel comfortable going to the PMS with that “heroic” level of guess?

One should not lose sight of the fact that data from China was relatively sparse, and that the virus shared 70% of the genetic code with SARS-COV1 – a virus with established 10% IFR. Even stepping down to 1% is in fact a considerable shift for prediction purposes. IFR has been refined, but a population-weighted mean isn’t far below 1%.

There is no generally accepted definition of ‘infection’ or ‘case’

There is no single PCR test in general use so no consistency in testing, no accepted PCR test cycle threshold.

The only numbers of any worth are the ONS all cause mortality figures and those have been plumb normal since a few weeks after the NHS kicked tens of thousands of the elderly and infirm out of hospital at 24 hours notice.

That is all anyone needs to know

Unless you are running a country and in need of a good crisis not to let go to waste……

we would also have needed a reasonable worst case scenario for the effect of a lockdown

The Pharmacometrics group at Pfizer have a long and established track record. Maybe they gave an answer that he didn’t like or agree with. For full disclosure, I know most of them. Modelling is about capturing the essence of the system (physical, engineering, biological), overlaying a degree of parameter uncertainty and then adding statistical insight. You need all three parts. Epidemiological models are no differerent, however the non-linearities lead to exponentially different predictions. One has to make a judgement about the reasonable worst case. With hindsight, this judgement is easier.

If the data on which the assumptions are made is junk, the model is junk.

Yours is a fair comment.

I have been a mathematical modeller for 25 years in a number of different fields – mainly in UK Universities but outside too. I am very aware of their limitations. The modern problem is that modelling is cheap. It costs a postdoc salary and overheads. It is far cheaper than fieldwork which is why its so tempting to do. Modellers often talk of their own models ‘telling us this’ or ‘predicting that’ but they tend not to have the deep knowledge of the subject they are studying to see its limitations. They are often better seen as limited ‘what if tools’.

I read Neil Ferguson’s first paper predicting the 510,000 deaths. It was poor for an undergraduate. I’d have asked a student to go away and a) include error bars and sensitivity analysis b) discuss at length the input assumptions (IFR etc) c) consider the deaths caused by the NPRs suggested (he only suggested nurses might not be able to work if their kids were off school). Certainly we shouldn’t have based an untested and catastrophic policy on it.

I read a paper recently that showed that each covid death lost 10 years of life. The paper was junk. It assumed the any deaths in the particular age/health condition category were the average for that category rather than the least healthy. The input to their ‘model’ was shit as was the ‘output’. But going to GPs and care homes and hospitals to find out the prior health of the covid deaths is hard and expensive, so its not done and ’10 years’ goes into folklore. It’s junk

The modern problem is that modelling is cheap. It costs a postdoc salary and overheads. It is far cheaper than fieldwork which is why its so tempting to do.

Yes, that goes to the nub of the problem.

I think there’s another one: models are a good way of abrogating responsibility: the decision isn’t mine, it was the model’s. ‘The model told me to do it.’

Thing is, Dr Yeadon’s remarks chime exactly with my own experience (on a smaller scale).

For too many modellers the model is the be-all-and-end-all, the model is reality; they don’t accept the limitations of mathematical representation, and are reluctant to – or even downright refuse – to revisit their findings in the light of empirical evidence. In short, too many of them are divorced from practical reality.

Sorry to the modeller enthusiasts on here. Only my experience, but I reached these conclusions long before I read Dr Yeadon’s remarks.

Nevertheless, Dr Yeadon makes some very grave accusations against SAGE – of competence and even honesty. It is, I think, these points that need addressing. Are these accusations fair or not? I’d read a rebuttal with interest; but I’m struggling to think how it might be constructed.

Dr Yeadon’s remarks chime exactly with my own experience (on a smaller scale).

… and not with mine. So where does that leave us?

A difference of opinion! And maybe we are both right based on our own experiences. The truth is rarely absolutely black and white.

But rather more important than whether Dr Yeadon is unfairly prejudiced against modellers in general are his specific criticisms of SAGE.

Indeed. And when his opinions on things I do know about are flawed, then. I am at liberty to presume that his opinions on things I don’t know about are flawed too.

Perhaps a problem with a forum like this is that it isn’t really a suitable platform for such debates – they are ephemeral, and aren’t really suitable for the development of complex points.

I reckon that if you wanted to write a rebuttal of Dr Yeadon’s paper then this site would publish it. I would certainly read it, especially any bits which countered his accusations against SAGE.

I should say I’ve never downvoted you on here, and have always read your posts with interest, even when they’ve been drawn from a different perspective than my own.

It’s tempting, but there are a number of reasons not to. One is Brandolini’s Law. Another is that the situation isn’t symmetrical. Dr Yeadon has a definite proposition to advance, namely that SAGE has got it all wrong, and reliance on mathematical modelling is to blame. I’m not arguing the opposite definite proposition, which would be that SAGE has got it all right, thanks to mathematical modelling. I don’t think it’s as simple as that, and I certainly don’t agree with it. My position would be that SAGE has got some things right; that some of the things that it supposedly got wrong weren’t done by them at all; that modelling has been a useful tool for some things; and a lot of what is said about mathematical modelling in general and SAGE’s use of it in particular simply isn’t true. That’s already a lot more complicated and would require considerably more effort to document. And I would want to document it.

When Dr Yeadon says, for example “No one who had a biology degree and a post-doctoral qualification in immunology. ” is on SAGE, he doesn’t document it (and indeed it’s hard to document a negative). But it took him, presumably, only a minute to write. It sounds good, but it is essentially meaningless. Firstly, it’s hard to know what a “post-doctoral qualification” is supposed to mean here. We don’t have second doctoral degrees (Habilitation) in our system, and the higher doctorate are typically honorary or at least unearned. But more to the point, he doesn’t explain it — it’s an arbitrary combination, presumably crafted to allow him to make the negative. There is a member of SAGE with a first degree in biology and a PhD in immunology who is now a professor of virology. Why is that arbitrarily excluded from his consideration? I say that it is for rhetorical purposes alone: it is intended to suggest something which is not true. Similarly “There were no clinical immunologists”: but there is a clinical physician with a degree in immunology now researching vaccines. So again, why the specification so carefully crafted to make it appear that this person doesn’t count?

Finally, let me allude to the claim “They have rebuffed well-intentioned and, as it turned out, accurate advice from at least three Nobel laureate scientists, all informing them that their modelling was seriously and indeed lethally in error”. I would like to see the evidence for that, because I don’t believe it: it doesn’t sound like the sort of way that Nobel laureates work. But I can’t disprove it, because you can’t prove negative. I believe, but cannot prove, that this is an inaccurate account of something that did happen, but in a way much less congenial to his thesis.

Have you written to Dr Yeadon?

You can contact him via Linkedin

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/mike-yeadon-3818613

The discussion, on whatever subject matter you propose, would, I’m sure, be published here.

This site welcomes debate…….and, whatever our differences of opinion, my thanks for your many contributions.

I think that’s a very good post, and thank you for taking the time and trouble to write it (I’d never heard of Brandolini’s Law). I particularly appreciate the first paragraph, which perhaps may be summarised as ‘the Devil is not so black as he is painted’, which in my experience is invariably true.

Having said that, I believe that in the UK’s policy response to covid something has gone, very, very wrong. And what I’ve read and heard leads me to believe that SAGE have some very serious questions to answer (as do the politicians, and the media). But we can’t hope to resolve that here – that’s for the extensive enquiry which will doubtless follow.

Your second and third paragraphs. Dr Yeadon is clearly very angry at what he’s seen, and that comes out in his writing. The emotional and emphatic style makes it attractive and even beguiling to the lay reader (as Will Jones indirectly alludes to in this day’s blog), and yet this ought to send a warning signal to a serious reader.

Again having said that, I believe that his pointed questions about SAGE assuming 100% of the population being susceptible to the virus, and their assuming that a very small proportion of the population has thus far been infected by the virus, need answering. These are I think the two key points of his article (rather than his more personal attacks on SAGE, however justified or not they may be). For my part, I can’t see how either of these assumptions are justifiable. Caveat as always – I’m happy to be corrected on this, if anyone wishes to propose counter evidence.

A further thing on modelling. I’m not against modelling as such, just bad modelling, and modelling as a cop-out for other work. I’m going to be working outside a lot today, so will be checking the forecast as it predicts the weather hour-by-hour through the day. In my experience such forecasts can achieve a remarkable precision. And of course they are based largely on modelling – but modelling continually revised  and updated by empirical data and observations: hence why they work.

As I have just written nearby here, I do hope you see this post, as this particular comments section is presumably soon to be abandoned.

Thanks for that. I agree that there is a serious discussion to be had about whether there is pre-existing immunity and if so what and how much — these are crucial questions for formulating a sensible debate bout, for example, the desirability of a herd immunity strategy. But we need to unpick several points, which are conflated by Dr Yeadon.

1. What was the state of knowledge about the virus in mid-February that would have informed an assessment about pre-existing immunity?
2. What was the range of possible scientifically credible conclusions from that knowledge at that time?
3. Did SAGE consider the question explicitly and effectively at that time?
4. Was the decision they came to a reasonable one given the range of possible conclusions available to them at that time?
5. Was that assessment in fact correct in the light of eight months subsequent experience?

Dr Yeadon believes two distinct things. (A) since Covid is caused by a Coronavirus, humans must have a considerable degree of pre-existing immunity to it based on their exposure to other coronaviruses; (B) any assessment that differs from (A) is scientifically invalid. He is of course entitled to an opinion on the subject, and that opinion carries weight because he has relevant expertise. But he is not entitled to conclude that any opinion that differs from his is ipso facto invalid — and that for two reasons. Firstly of course it’s rather arrogant, especially since it’s only an opinion, and this bears on the second reason, which is simply that whether humans have pre-existing immunity to SARS-Cov-2 is ultimately a matter of fact, not of opinion, and is capable of being tested scientifically — indeed, an enormous unplanned experiment on the subject is underway right now.

Dr Yeadon effectively retrofits his answers to my five questions from his (A) and (B), rather than from the evidence before us.

I agree with your 5 questions, although I would add a sixth/seventh: to what extent has SAGE revised its assumptions in the light of experience over the last eight months, and how have those revisions reflected the advancements in our knowledge of the disease?

I’d like to explore these 6/7 questions at some time, although it’s probably going to have to wait for another day and another thread (going out shortly, till late afternoon). I say ‘explore’ – I have my own preconceptions, which I admit I can’t prove, but will of course happily listen to other points of view.

Yes, Dr Yeadon’s opinions can come across as being a bit arrogant, and even didactic – a consequence in part of his evident exasperation – yet arrogance doesn’t necessary imply his views are entirely incorrect.

So you accept that if modellers are not provided with sufficient or correct inputs, then their outputs will be garbage.

All I am taking from that is ignore every single model produced by the Establishment as it is not based on real life.

That is not what I said, and it’s not quite correct. A model can give you qualitative insight into behaviours of complex systems, as I illustrated yesterday with a brief note about “circuit-breakers”. It can also give you indication of how sensitive the output is to errors in the input, and hence give you more or less confidence about the robustness of your outputs when the inputs are less than certain.

Actually that’s not really how modelling works. One formulates a structure and parameters, applies fitting to data and assesses the fit. Then you look to see whether the estimated parameters are reasonable, whether outliers are predictable events, all sorts of diagnostics. Models in biology have worked this way for decades. A failure to describe data with reasonable parameters may inform of something unknown. The debate about the Epidemic models is whether immunity of changes in contacts have driven the decline since April in cases and deaths. The upsurge is challenging to explain based on immunity, behaviour is a more likely explanation (e.g., schools returned just before the uptick). This behaviour is predicted based on known contacts and assumptions about how children spread influenza.

What happens if the data that you are trying to fit the model to is junk…..with the exception of overall all cause mortality; plumb normal?

600,000 people per year die in the UK. Prior to 2020 British people thought they were immortal.

When I was a kid, in history class, inbetween staring at Teresa Manguzi’s blossoming boobs, I wondered why people allowed ye olde kings of old to abuse them. Why Germany allowed Hitler’s supposed atrocities (I say supposed because like covid I expect details were rewritten by the victors). Why Stasi ratted on their neighbors. Why the borg ratted on their parents during the Great Cultural Revolution in China Borg land.

Most of the people wearing masks would have given up Anne Frank and informed on their parents. Most would flip those switches in the Stanford prison experiment. And duck witches in the pond.

And snitch neighbours to the Inquisition.

First time posting here… an oasis of sanity in a mad world. Don’t agree with the use of derogatory terms such as ‘bedwetters’, ‘zombies’ or ‘sheeple’. Divide and conquer is what this speaks to. Remember the Remain campaign’s attitude to those ‘low information’ folk who backed Brexit? Masks are not muzzles but are what people wear when they’re afraid. Or when they want a quiet life in the belief this too will pass. Not all mask wearers with the programme maybe.
Sadly the madness may not pass but not wearing a mask is symbolic rather than effective. Can’t be bothered going out to the shops? Shopping unlined may save you the hassle. Stay at home and vent your anger online. My guess is this will suit the Internet billionaires who will take your money and the governments glad to see you cowering indoors. Is it not time for peaceful protest and the reclaiming of public space? If not now when?

I’ll stop calling them bedwetters and sheeple when they stop calling us granny killers and covidiots.

We have to be better than that… name calling is for the playground. It ain’t no game. Hearts and minds… rational argument and peaceful persuasion.. somehow

If a person calls you names you have a right to call them back. It shows they are not willing to have reasoned discussion. But labelling a whole group of people with a name probably doesn’t help other than to let off steam. Which, sigh, we all need from time to time.

Welcome Hill Street Bluez.
I go live shopping just as much as I used to and don’t care about the strange look since I put down to jealousy.

When indeed?
Welcome to these pages, HSB.

A second comment on Mike Yeadon’s piece.

It is no use whatever if the modellers are earnest and brilliant if they are not top quality experts in the phenomenon being modelled.

Since that’s obviously never going to happen, it’s an unrealistically high bar. There are exactly as many brilliant mathematicians who are also top quality experts in viral immunity as there are top quality experts in viral immunity who are also brilliant mathematicians. As Dr Yeadon must know from his time in leading scientific research, it is futile to rely on finding all the expertise in multiple subjects that you need in one person. That’s why you assemble, lead and manage teams and get them to work together.

Specifically, successful projects of this nature require modellers with a sufficient working knowledge of the processes being modelled to engage with subject matters experts, and subject matter experts with a sufficient knowledge of modelling to understand what it can and cannot do for them and how to get it to do the things that they want if at all possible. Both parties need to have sufficient common ground to be able to communicate, and sufficient communications skills and intellectual breadth to communicate successfully. It’s a team sport.

Why pretend otherwise?

‘That’s why you assemble, lead and manage teams and get them to work together.’

That is precisely Dr Yeadon’s point:

‘They (SAGE) have rebuffed well-intentioned and, as it turned out, accurate advice from at least three Nobel laureate scientists, all informing them that their modelling was seriously and indeed lethally in error.’

No, that is not the point. Dr Yeadon criticises the modellers for making a certain assumption. If it was left to them to do so, that is a failure in the team-working. The quality of the model is a completely separate issue to the quality of the model-building process.

I didn’t address the Nobel-prize-winners issue at all, but may do so at some point.

To turn down the offer of help from three Nobel laureate scientists is quite clearly a refusal to harness the expertise that the modellers lacked, to build a competent team, exactly the point that Dr Yeadon is making.

To turn down the offer of help from three Nobel laureate scientists is quite clearly a refusal to build a competent team, exactly the point that Dr Yeadon is making

That’s not the point he was making. He said “They have rebuffed well-intentioned and, as it turned out, accurate advice from at least three Nobel laureate scientists, all informing them that their modelling was seriously and indeed lethally in error.” Advice is not the same as an offer of help. (If you fall overboard, my advice to you is to get back on board as soon as possible. Is that an offer of help?)

I think I would like to see evidence of who these three are, what the advice was that they offered, what the response was, and why it was accurate.

That rather depends on whether the advice is helpful or not…….

If a Nobel laureate offers advice, you would have to have a considerable conceit to consider that advice unhelpful, not to avail yourself of that advice, and not to respectfully request some more helpful advice, often known as help.

To spurn the advice of three Nobel laureates is plain hubris; bigotry.

Dr Yeadon makes any number of points and makes them extremely well.

One of those is that the modellers should have possessed expertise in the field that they were modelling.

You believe that is a tall order……which makes the spurning of advice from Nobel laureates who did possess that expertise, frankly, scandalous.

The government is running away from an independent public inquiry by prolonging this confected crisis unnecessarily….but that day will come.

If a Nobel laureate offers advice, you would have to have a considerable conceit to consider that advice unhelpful,

Oh dear. Because if you’re referring, for example, to Prof. Levitt’s preprint Predicting the Trajectory of Any COVID19 Epidemic From the Best Straight Line then I’m conceited enough to say that the mathematics is erroneous, incorrectly applied and does not fit the data. Which is not helpful.

Your words…….

You know that the data is junk

No internationally accepted definition of ‘infection’

No internationally accepted definition of ‘case’

Various different PCR tests, with no definition of useful cycle thresholds and so on

Modelling is of course fun, but without solid foundations in good data, just that, not to be taken seriously; not even occasionally useful.

I’ve explained elsewhere what the possible benefits of modelling are, even when there are uncertainties in the data. Of course I’m not saying that it can always give good answers in the absence of good data — but I am saying that it is sometimes capable of being useful, and if you choose not to accept that, then we’ll just end up going round this loop again.

But I’m surprised that you should hold your simplistic view while at the same time advocating the use of the models of the three Nobel laureates whom Dr Yeadon believes offered their help to SAGE.

I am most certainly not advocating the use of any models regarding this minor common cold coronavirus epidemic that ended several months ago

All models are wrong and none are useful when they use junk data.

I am advocating treating Nobel laureates with respect.

There is good data available: ONS overall all cause mortality:

‘In August 2020, there were 34,750 deaths registered in England, 2,060 deaths fewer than the five-year average (2015 to 2019) for August; in Wales, there were 2,379 deaths registered, 116 deaths fewer the five-year average for August.

The leading cause of death in August 2020 was dementia and Alzheimer’s disease in England (accounting for 10.9% of all deaths) and ischaemic heart disease in Wales (11.0% of all deaths); both leading causes of death were the same in July 2020.

The coronavirus (COVID-19) did not feature in the top ten leading causes of death in August 2020, in England or Wales. In England, COVID-19 was the 24th most common cause of death’

The next such analysis comes out in a week.

I look forward to having another conversation then

… criticises the modellers for making a certain assumption. If it was left to them [Ferguson] to do so, that is a failure in the team-working.

Maybe try substituting ‘Ferguson’ for ‘them’ in this passage, and we perhaps start to see what has gone wrong.

Ferguson made his own assumptions. SAGE should have at least challenged him on those assumptions. As far as I can tell, they did not – and neither did anyone in government.

(Maybe Ferguson was telling them what he already knew they wanted to hear??)

Ferguson made his own assumptions. SAGE should have at least challenged him on those assumptions. As far as I can tell, they did not

You have evidence for this — especially evidence that contradicts the minutes of SAGE meetings in February?

Nope, but I’m happy to be corrected on this. As I understood it, Ferguson did indeed make his own assumptions. If you can point me to where SAGE challenged this I will read with interest.

As far as I know, I am unaware of the Ferguson model being seriously challenged within official circles.

Well, you made the assertion, so I think the onus is on you to back it up with evidence rather than on me to provide evidence against it. Indeed, I don’t claim to know, but since SAGE 11 formally adopted the RWC before Ferguson issued Report 9, my guess is that as SAGE meetings discussed the data and developed its consensus position on the parameters of the virus, that Ferguson and his team would have been using those figures to develop their model. But I claim no more than that being a reasonable deduction from the evidence,

Ok, fair enough. But I did caveat my comment:

Ferguson made his own assumptions. SAGE should have at least challenged him on those assumptions. As far as I can tell, they did not – and neither did anyone in government.

My ‘as far as I can tell’ bit has some parallels to your ‘ I claim no more than that being a reasonable deduction from the evidence’.

I am aware of no evidence that SAGE has ever probed properly Ferguson’s modelling, and the manner in which they have continued to support what I believe to be his discredited analysis raises my suspicions further. That is my feeling, and I’m happy to be corrected on it with counter evidence, and I don’t claim it as a truth – hence why I so often caveat my posts with stuff like ‘as far as I can tell’.

This is one for the subsequent enquiry, which will doubtless take months and masses of evidence to reach its conclusions – effort which we can’t hope to replicate here.

Although we sometimes come at things from a different perspective, I do find your comments enlightening and usefully cautionary. Your remarks on how Ferguson should be judged on what he actually wrote concerning projected BSE deaths have led me to think about his work in a different light.

Late as it is in the life-cycle of this comments section, I don’t know whether you’ll see this post or not.

Thanks for that.

While I agree with what you say Richard about it needing to be a ‘team sport’, in the real world of business, from which Dr Yeadon hails (Pfizer) the concept of ‘team sport’ rarely triumphs. When management brings in a set of outsiders, in this case modelers, it is usually with a pre-agreed agenda that seeks to impose a particular set of ideas into a process. The objective is a de facto hostile takeover, and understandably, the incumbent team will be defensive.
Where I disagree with you is in the idea that there can never be a top quality expert modelers who is also a top quality expert in the phenomena being modeled. I can name a few in key sectors, one very close to home (Mr TT), who appear regularly in ultra high value litigation and other commercial settings.

the idea that there can never be a top quality expert modelers who is also a top quality expert in the phenomena being modeled.

I accept that “never” was over-emphatic. Let me say that such people are so rare and so much in demand that it is unrealistic in any given instance to rely on being able to find them, and unreasonable to criticise others for not having found them.

I meant no disrespect to any of those few people who are capable of working at the top quality expert level in both mathematics and in some quite different discipline.

They are usually people who have PhDs in statistical techniques/modeling but who have also worked in the industry in question. They are more numerous than you may think, and are available to government departments if they care to look – the emphasis being on ‘if’!

I don”t disagree with that (and indeed the Institute I have the privilege of working with has many such people as members) but I think that Dr Yeadon was imposing an unrealistically high expectation of what this double expertise would look like — possibly for rhetorical effect.

Dr Yeadon does indeed like rhetorical effect, which is both a strength and weakness of his writing.

Where are those top-quality people? Advising the government, are they?

The ones I know are working in academia, business, industry and government.

Have received a reply from the butcher. Any suggestions of how I should reply:

Dear

I am always very disappointed to receive feedback from our customers that highlights their perceived poor service within our shops. Happily, it happens very rarely.

I would first point out that XXXXX, including our XXXXX, XXXXXX, has continued to trade throughout the pandemic. We have kept our shops open and we have served our customers to the best of our ability, taking into consideration Government guidelines at all times. We had to resort to trading from the door at one point and, more recently, our Team have been asked to wear face coverings throughout their eight to ten hour shifts. I would point out that this is very uncomfortable for them, but hopefully in the best interest of all. We have taken orders for delivery to vulnerable customers, those isolating, the elderly and many NHS workers. In short, we have done what we can to maintain a service to the local community.

It has been my own role to maintain Team morale, and to encourage the Team at times when heads have dropped a little. Out Team have been stoic in their efforts. They have shown fortitude and resilience at a time when they have had concerns about their own health, and the health of their families. I am very proud of all of the Team, and the general customer response would support my own appreciation of their endeavours.

At some point in mid-July, the Government made it mandatory for customers entering shops to wear face coverings. As you point out in your email, there are exemptions. As retailers we were asked to monitor and implement this measure. At no point has it been suggested that retailers should ‘police’ the situation. As per Government guidelines, we have implemented our own ‘Risk Assessment’ for trading in the present climate and, on inspection from Camden Council, we are doing everything asked of us.

I have discussed your complaint with our XXXX Team. Their account does not greatly differ from yours. I understand that you were asked to wear a face covering and offered a surgical, disposable covering when you made it known that you did not have your own. You then highlighted your exemption. For your information, we choose, as a Company, to serve those customers unable to wear a face covering, at the front door. This is to protect our Team.

It appears that the basis of your complaint is the stance taken by our Team when you showed limited, if any, inclination to show the card that you are supplied with, that explains your exemption. This put our Team in a very difficult position, and compromised our Company Risk Assessment.

Having considered the situation that you highlight, and have chosen to share on social media, I would suggest that it is incumbent on the general public to work with retailers and understand the stresses and guidelines that they are working with. You were simply asked to prove your exemption. While you defend your right not to, I must defend the health and wellbeing of our Team. I have spoken to the lady who spoke to you, and we will take on board your comments. It is always disappointing to lose a valued customer, but commerce is a two way street.

Yours sincerely,

etc, etc…

Not the point – legally you should not be challenged for proof, or treated differently from any other customer as it is clear discrimination.

Good point. Will add that to my reply.

CGL has it spot on. Everything is in that one sentence.

Point out that I’m asking you to “prove” your disability, and by serving you at the door, they are seriously breaking the Disability Discrimination Act.

Yes, it’s the same as not allowing in a guide dog because the doggie germs.

well done for taking it up.

Keep your reply very short. Focus on the fact that you only have to say exempt and no card required for them to police (Attach a copy of the no masks government section), then point out that this it is disability discrimination and quote the possible fines. It is shocking that they think they can serve a customer at the door and that it is not discrimination. You won’t be able to change their minds, its made up. Then Vote with your feet – not much more you can do (yes, it is not always easy to replace a particular shop)

Thanks for your advice. My plan is to send them a link to the Law or Fiction site.

I have found an online butcher and they’ve been good. They also hold the royal warrant so if its good enough for Her Majesty then its good enough for me.

I can highly recommend Kittows Quality Meats of Cornwall. They deliver nationwide and their homemade pies are awesome!

You could suggest it will go further if they do not admit it is discrimination. You have it in writing that their policy is to discriminate against exempt individuals. So I would make this clear that it can now be taken to a solicitor.

Mr Bart suggested forwarding the reply to he Equalities commission and I am also considering bringing Camden council in as well to report them for discrimination

Only do this if you are willing to go the whole way

I think it may be discriminatory for them to serve you at the front door as this is a different level of service.

Use the Law or Fiction toolkit and threaten to litigate for discrimination.
https://www.laworfiction.com/2020/07/face-covering-litigation-threats-and-administrative-headache/

Great advice.

Bart, attach the fist few pages of the toolkit to your correspondence. https://www.laworfiction.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Face-Covering-Exemption-Notice-with-Law-Explained-24-July-2020.pdf

Well nobody is “supplied” with an exemption card. They are available to print out but there is no obligation to carry one and no legal right to demand to see one.

Exactly. The law does not mention proof of, or explanation of, exemption AT ALL. And the guidance is crystal clear – ‘Don’t’.

It is clearly DDA discrimination. If a wheelchair user couldn’t get into a shop because the door was to narrow it would be discrimination to insist they had to be served outside.

Take your custom someplace else.

If business prefer to serve people with exemptions at the door they should make that clear by a sign in the door.
I had an altercation with my usually very nice newsagent about this, and have not shopped with him since then.
I guess I should have known better, since they have been wearing face coverings since the start.
I do not like the practice of being served at the door, but at least it shows willingness and a sign avoids the need for an argument and people consequently getting upset.
It is not nice for the workers either. As someone who worked in a customer facing environment, I know how draining it is and difficult to stay polite.

That’s a good point. I work in visitor services and agree that it’s draining it is and difficult to stay polite. We had a very popular and busy exhibition last year and that really tested my patience and ability to stay polite to the limit.

Find a one-way street that goes away from the shop, and continue along it until you find another butcher’s.

We have decided to permanently go with the online butcher that we have found – great products and great service.

“For your information, we choose, as a Company, to serve those customers unable to wear a face covering, at the front door.”

I am not a lawyer, but have they not just admitted disability discrimination?

Yes they have.

I see that the Speaker has closed down the House of Commons bars. Presumably the poor dear MPs will now have to walk over to the House of Lords bars (they probably sell better gin anyway).

ahh interesting bars at the House of Lords still open…..

The average Lords day. Walk from posh house to HoL, sign in, pocket allowance, go to bar, drink and chat, go home.

Dear The UK Police.

Stop being a bunch of fascist, mind controlled gimps and do something useful. See France…

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8843089/Police-search-home-French-health-minister-former-PM-Covid-probe.html

read further – apparently because police think these politicians did not have more severe restrictions in the beginning

<cries/>

Can that fatuous idiot from “Countryfile” give any real instances of “discrimination” which are not the fabrications of paranoia?

I don’t think some people realise that you occasionally come across some unfriendly locals in the countryside. Some people for an example seem to take an exception to walkers using public footpaths crossing their land, also some country pubs can be very cliquey (as can urban ones). Like you say much of it is just paranoia.

That is why we have the new Reclaim party that openly challenges these type of idiotic statements.

Unite, don’t divide [Video with Laurence Fox and Calvin Robinson]

https://twitter.com/LozzaFox/status/1314935151789563905

The Times front page is laugh out loud establishment propaganda today. It manages to both promote the Oxford vaccine and attack Russia at the same time. The story is about how the evil Russians are spreading a rumour about the Oxford vaccine turning people into monkeys – which in itself if true (I doubt it) is laughable in itself and I can’t believe anyone in the world would believe this.

The fact that The Times has dedicated a front page and so much space inside for this story shows how low standards have fallen at UK newspapers. I knew they were planning to go on a pro-vaccine propaganda campaign but surely they could do better than this? https://www.thetimes.co.uk/?region=global

Must be a joke testing if literally any shit will stick. It’s like the Happy Birthday song being exceptionally contagious.

“evil Russians are spreading a rumour about the Oxford vaccine turning people into monkeys…”

Well maybe that’s why they are getting immunity against injury claims.

I knew there must be some reason for this…

It is comical, for those of us who have observed the shameless propagandising about Russia indulged in by our governments, with general media complicity, over decades now.

It would be nice to think that some of the people here whose eyes have been opened to the dishonesty of outlets like the BBC, Times and Guardian by their coronapanic performance might choose to apply their new-found scepticism to past coverage of international affairs.

It’s entirely understandable that most people are not interested enough in geostrategy to bother questioning such stuff generally, which is why they have mostly gotten away with it.

I just wish they spent more time improving this country rather than having their petty geopolitical fights – the only real beneficiaries are the arms industry and military police state.

Well, the monkey bit has to be correct, if you assume that they tried the Oxford vaccine on Wancock.

I might be interested in the transformative vaccine – probably more fun being a monkey than a human at the moments (as long as your not a lab one).

Yet another comment, if I may on Mike Yeadon’s posting.

First, the Imperial group decided to assume that, since SARS-CoV-2 was a new virus, “the level of prior immunity in the population was essentially zero”. In other words, “100% of the population was initially susceptible to the virus”.

I seriously doubt that they decided that purely on their own initiative, without reference either before or after the event to subject matter experts from SAGE. As the SAGE minutes show, early meetings were devoted to developing a common understanding of what was know about the then novel virus. If those assumptions were made, they were made by subject experts and given to modellers. Dr Yeadon gives as his personal view that this assumption is wrong, and that it was wrong at the time. Well, unless he can demonstrate that it must have been wrong and known to be wrong at that time, then he can only say that he disagreed with SAGE. Is it possible that he attributes this assumption to modellers rather than to his fellow experts because he does not care to admit that there is a difference of opinion among experts, one which modelling and modellers cannot be held accountable for?

I don’t claim to know the Imperial model in detail, but it’s a trivial matter to set pre-existing immunity as a parameter and investigate the dependence of model outputs to changes in that assumption. The initial assumption of zero pre-existing immunity was the correct conservative assumption for planning purposes (Reasonable Worst Case). Of course I’m not denying that these assumptions need to be revisited as data comes in. If that has not been happening, then a vital part of the communication between modeller and domain expert would been left out. That would have been the responsibility of SAGE collectively and its chair specifically — I have no detailed knowledge of whether or how that went of course.

His point is more fundamental:

Application of ‘The Precautionary Principle’ without the necessary accompaniment of a cost/benefit analysis, a point made by the government’s own guidance on the precautionary principle, will end badly.

SAGE should have been aware of government guidance on ‘The Precautionary Principle’ and followed it to the letter in advising the government.

That they did not so do is a very grave dereliction of duty, incompetence, and they should be disbanded forthwith (at the very least).

SAGE should have been aware of government guidance on ‘The Precautionary Principle’

Do you have a reference describing this principle as a compulsory mandate for government planning purposes?

Any government spending decision – which this is – should come with a cost/benefit analysis. It’s not their money that they are spending!!

(That they actually do or not is a separate matter)